0:00:00 > 0:00:00QUESTION TIME FKR E075F/01 BRD000000
4:13:15 > 4:13:18Tonight, we're in Dundee, and this is Question Time.
4:13:27 > 4:13:29And good evening. Welcome to you, whether you're watching
4:13:29 > 4:13:33or listening to this programme and welcome to our panel tonight,
4:13:33 > 4:13:36here to answer questions and debate with our audience.
4:13:36 > 4:13:40The Conservative leader in Scotland, Ruth Davidson,
4:13:40 > 4:13:44the Deputy First Minister of Scotland, John Swinney of the SNP,
4:13:44 > 4:13:46Labour's Health Spokesperson in
4:13:46 > 4:13:48the Scottish Parliament, Jenny Marra,
4:13:48 > 4:13:52the leader of the Scottish Liberal Democrats, Willie Rennie,
4:13:52 > 4:13:54the co-convener of the Scottish Greens,
4:13:54 > 4:13:57Patrick Harvie, and the Daily Telegraph columnist
4:13:57 > 4:13:59and leader writer, Tim Stanley.
4:14:00 > 4:14:03APPLAUSE
4:14:11 > 4:14:12Thank you very much.
4:14:12 > 4:14:14Just before we take our first question, don't forget
4:14:14 > 4:14:17Facebook, text or Twitter. The details are on the screen
4:14:17 > 4:14:19if you want to comment on
4:14:19 > 4:14:21anything that's said here, as I'm sure you may want to.
4:14:21 > 4:14:24Callum Richardson, your question, please.
4:14:24 > 4:14:26Is a second independence referendum
4:14:26 > 4:14:29inevitable if Britain votes to leave the EU?
4:14:29 > 4:14:33Ie, will Scotland have a second referendum vote if Britain,
4:14:33 > 4:14:36as a whole, votes to leave the EU? Patrick Harvie?
4:14:37 > 4:14:39My personal view is
4:14:39 > 4:14:42I suspect Scotland will choose to ask itself
4:14:42 > 4:14:45the question about independence again.
4:14:45 > 4:14:49I'll expect to be campaigning for a Yes vote again.
4:14:49 > 4:14:51Not for the same reasons, I have to say,
4:14:51 > 4:14:54that some on the Yes campaign put forward.
4:14:54 > 4:14:58The Greens have always set out a distinctive path on this one.
4:14:58 > 4:15:01But I do hope that we don't have to address
4:15:01 > 4:15:04that question in the context of the UK having
4:15:04 > 4:15:07voted to leave the European Union -
4:15:07 > 4:15:11a political and economic union that I think is of
4:15:11 > 4:15:14far more value to us in Scotland in forging
4:15:14 > 4:15:16a more equal, a more socially just
4:15:16 > 4:15:21and a more environmentally responsible community of nations.
4:15:21 > 4:15:24If we were to see the UK vote to leave
4:15:24 > 4:15:28the European Union, I think it would be very
4:15:28 > 4:15:31challenging for those of us who thought that we
4:15:31 > 4:15:34had better answers to offer for some of the questions,
4:15:34 > 4:15:38such as currency, than were put forward by the SNP in 2014.
4:15:38 > 4:15:40I think it would be hard
4:15:40 > 4:15:43for us to say this is a stable time in which Scotland
4:15:43 > 4:15:46could make that break, particularly as we might be talking
4:15:46 > 4:15:48about two years or more of negotiations.
4:15:48 > 4:15:52I think it's far better for Scotland and for the UK,
4:15:52 > 4:15:54whichever view you take of independence,
4:15:54 > 4:15:58that we vote together in as big numbers as we possibly can
4:15:58 > 4:15:59to stay in the European Union
4:15:59 > 4:16:03and then to turn it into the socially just and progressive
4:16:03 > 4:16:07- and democratic union that it ought to be.- All right, thank you.
4:16:07 > 4:16:09Ruth Davidson. APPLAUSE
4:16:11 > 4:16:13Just a reminder of the question.
4:16:13 > 4:16:15It's not to rehearse the arguments for in and out,
4:16:15 > 4:16:18it's about whether the second independence referendum
4:16:18 > 4:16:20would be inevitable if the UK,
4:16:20 > 4:16:23as a whole, voted out but Scotland voted in.
4:16:23 > 4:16:26No, I don't think it is inevitable. I also believe,
4:16:26 > 4:16:29actually, that the whole of the UK will vote to stay in.
4:16:29 > 4:16:31That's certainly my hope.
4:16:31 > 4:16:34I think that we had a huge discussion about this.
4:16:34 > 4:16:37At every event I was at during the independence referendum,
4:16:37 > 4:16:40this was something that was known about and discussed
4:16:40 > 4:16:44before Scotland passed its vote. We cast a clear-cut vote,
4:16:44 > 4:16:47two million people said, "We want to stay part of the United Kingdom."
4:16:47 > 4:16:50I've never understood the argument that the SNP has put forward
4:16:50 > 4:16:53that says that being part of the wider EU,
4:16:53 > 4:16:55if there was to be a Brexit,
4:16:55 > 4:16:57where we export 15% of our goods and services,
4:16:57 > 4:17:00is so important that we have to leave a union
4:17:00 > 4:17:03where we export 64% of our goods and services.
4:17:03 > 4:17:04APPLAUSE
4:17:06 > 4:17:09It's a really easy one to solve.
4:17:09 > 4:17:11Because, before the independence referendum,
4:17:11 > 4:17:14everybody senior in the SNP said it was once-in-a-generation.
4:17:14 > 4:17:16Since then, they've refused to say that again,
4:17:16 > 4:17:18so I'll ask John to say it tonight.
4:17:18 > 4:17:21OK. John? She's only asking you to say that.
4:17:21 > 4:17:24Am I not to answer the other question?
4:17:24 > 4:17:27- You can answer hers first. - Once-in-a-generation, John?
4:17:27 > 4:17:30The view that I take about this is that the people of Scotland
4:17:30 > 4:17:31are the people that will decide
4:17:31 > 4:17:34whether Scotland should be an independent country.
4:17:34 > 4:17:36And nobody, absolutely nobody, least of all me,
4:17:36 > 4:17:38can take away the right of the people of Scotland
4:17:38 > 4:17:41to decide if they want to have another referendum
4:17:41 > 4:17:44and to decide if they want to be an independent country.
4:17:44 > 4:17:46APPLAUSE
4:17:46 > 4:17:48So that is and issue in the hands of the people of Scotland
4:17:48 > 4:17:51to decide, when - and if - that happens.
4:17:51 > 4:17:53Sorry, can I just stop you there?
4:17:53 > 4:17:56How do the people of Scotland decide whether to have
4:17:56 > 4:17:58a referendum unless you have a referendum on
4:17:58 > 4:18:01- whether to have a referendum? - What there would have to be...
4:18:01 > 4:18:04The Nationalist party has to legislate for it, don't you, John?
4:18:04 > 4:18:07There has to be demonstrably clear support
4:18:07 > 4:18:09that people in Scotland wanted there to be
4:18:09 > 4:18:10an independence referendum,
4:18:10 > 4:18:13and for Scotland to be an independent country.
4:18:13 > 4:18:14And, ultimately, that issue
4:18:14 > 4:18:16has to be resolved in a referendum
4:18:16 > 4:18:18where people are free to vote the way they choose
4:18:18 > 4:18:20- in that referendum.- We did.
4:18:20 > 4:18:22How would it be affected, come to the main point,
4:18:22 > 4:18:26about if the rest of Britain voted out and Scotland voted in?
4:18:26 > 4:18:29The first thing I want to say is to agree with Patrick
4:18:29 > 4:18:32that I hope people will vote, and vote decisively,
4:18:32 > 4:18:34to stay in the European Union.
4:18:34 > 4:18:37I will be arguing for that. The SNP will be arguing for that,
4:18:37 > 4:18:39the Scottish government will be arguing for that,
4:18:39 > 4:18:42because we believe that to be advantageous
4:18:42 > 4:18:44for the social and economic and environmental wellbeing
4:18:44 > 4:18:46of people in Scotland.
4:18:46 > 4:18:48That is the argument I will put forward.
4:18:48 > 4:18:52If we find ourselves in a situation where Scotland, for example,
4:18:52 > 4:18:55has voted decisively in favour of EU membership
4:18:55 > 4:18:57but we are taken out of the EU
4:18:57 > 4:19:01because of votes outwith the United Kingdom, fundamentally,
4:19:01 > 4:19:05the promise that was given to people in the Scottish referendum,
4:19:05 > 4:19:07that you had to vote No to stay in the EU,
4:19:07 > 4:19:11that was the argument put forward - you must vote No to stay in the EU -
4:19:11 > 4:19:13then I think, fundamentally,
4:19:13 > 4:19:16part of the promise of the No campaign has been breached
4:19:16 > 4:19:17and circumstances change
4:19:17 > 4:19:20in relation to the question of a further referendum.
4:19:20 > 4:19:22APPLAUSE
4:19:24 > 4:19:25Are you genuinely trying to claim
4:19:25 > 4:19:28the last Scottish independence referendum
4:19:28 > 4:19:30was actually a referendum on membership of the EU?
4:19:30 > 4:19:32Because I don't remember that.
4:19:32 > 4:19:34- What I'm saying is... - APPLAUSE
4:19:38 > 4:19:42On a constant basis, Tim, one of the arguments put forward by
4:19:42 > 4:19:44the No campaign, put forward by people around this table,
4:19:44 > 4:19:47was that the only way you could secure Scotland's
4:19:47 > 4:19:50membership of the European Union was to vote No
4:19:50 > 4:19:53because that guaranteed your membership as part of the UK.
4:19:53 > 4:19:55What I'm warning and cautioning about
4:19:55 > 4:19:56is that the gamble
4:19:56 > 4:19:59the Prime Minister has taken with the EU referendum
4:19:59 > 4:20:01jeopardises Scotland's membership of the EU,
4:20:01 > 4:20:03and that was not what the Prime Minister promised
4:20:03 > 4:20:05- in the Scottish referendum.- Now...
4:20:05 > 4:20:08Now, I think people are sick and tired
4:20:08 > 4:20:11of the SNP holding the entire country hostage
4:20:11 > 4:20:12and saying that whenever...
4:20:12 > 4:20:15APPLAUSE
4:20:15 > 4:20:18..whenever there is a policy that the union,
4:20:18 > 4:20:20as a whole, wishes to follow,
4:20:20 > 4:20:22they say they will hold a referendum and leave.
4:20:22 > 4:20:25Think about it. Let's say that actually happened -
4:20:25 > 4:20:27let's say Britain votes to leave the EU
4:20:27 > 4:20:29and Scotland then votes to go into it.
4:20:29 > 4:20:32What would happen on the basis of the finances
4:20:32 > 4:20:35that the SNP has left Scotland with?
4:20:35 > 4:20:38You would have austerity forced upon you by the European Central Bank.
4:20:38 > 4:20:41So it's not even something you would want if you got it.
4:20:43 > 4:20:46Let me hear from... Hold on. I'll come to you.
4:20:46 > 4:20:49The woman there, just two in in the fourth row.
4:20:49 > 4:20:54- Yes, you.- I thought we voted to stay in the UK in 2014.
4:20:54 > 4:20:56What has changed?
4:20:56 > 4:20:59And what, in your view, has changed? Nothing?
4:20:59 > 4:21:01Yeah, nothing.
4:21:01 > 4:21:0755.3% of the Scottish population voted No.
4:21:07 > 4:21:13If the UK, as a whole, voted Brexit, what would you think then?
4:21:13 > 4:21:19I think it would give the SNP an opportunity
4:21:19 > 4:21:21and an excuse to hold another referendum.
4:21:21 > 4:21:24- And would you still vote No?- Yes.
4:21:24 > 4:21:26Even if it meant not being in the EU. OK.
4:21:27 > 4:21:31- By the way, Scottish Euro-sceptics do exist.- You said that already.
4:21:31 > 4:21:34A recent poll showed 36% of Scottish people
4:21:34 > 4:21:35want to leave the EU.
4:21:35 > 4:21:38The SNP needs to stop characterising all Scots
4:21:38 > 4:21:39- as being SNP.- Jenny Marra.
4:21:39 > 4:21:44I don't think the UK will vote to leave the European Union.
4:21:44 > 4:21:47I don't think people want to take that risk overall
4:21:47 > 4:21:49with jobs and the economy.
4:21:49 > 4:21:52But if the UK does vote to come out
4:21:52 > 4:21:54and Scotland votes to stay,
4:21:54 > 4:21:58then it will very much be up to the people of Scotland,
4:21:58 > 4:22:01as John says, and as the First Minister says,
4:22:01 > 4:22:03if they want a second referendum.
4:22:03 > 4:22:05However, the means to that, I think,
4:22:05 > 4:22:08would be if the SNP were to put it in their manifesto.
4:22:08 > 4:22:11I think that's a key question for this election coming up,
4:22:11 > 4:22:13whether John's party will put
4:22:13 > 4:22:16a second referendum in their manifesto.
4:22:16 > 4:22:18Because, if that did happen, there are big questions,
4:22:18 > 4:22:20as Tim said, about currency.
4:22:20 > 4:22:21You would then be in a situation...
4:22:21 > 4:22:23The SNP said they wanted to keep the pound,
4:22:23 > 4:22:26so we'd be in a sterling zone with the rest of the UK,
4:22:26 > 4:22:27who would be out of the EU.
4:22:27 > 4:22:30I think we would be running the largest deficit
4:22:30 > 4:22:32out of any EU country.
4:22:32 > 4:22:34We'd be under a lot of pressure to join the euro.
4:22:34 > 4:22:37There's no guarantees that accession to the EU,
4:22:37 > 4:22:40or as a continuing state, as John previously argued,
4:22:40 > 4:22:41would be guaranteed.
4:22:41 > 4:22:44But I believe that Scotland is best within the UK
4:22:44 > 4:22:46and the UK is best within the EU,
4:22:46 > 4:22:48and that's what I'll be campaigning for.
4:22:48 > 4:22:51I cannot believe I've just heard the Labour Party
4:22:51 > 4:22:53selling the jersey on a second independence referendum
4:22:53 > 4:22:56sitting next to me right now. You're such a mess on this.
4:22:56 > 4:22:58You've got candidates standing that support independence.
4:22:58 > 4:23:00Half of your candidates are putting things out saying,
4:23:00 > 4:23:02"A once-in-a-generation decision,
4:23:02 > 4:23:05"let's hold Nicola Sturgeon to that promise on independence,"
4:23:05 > 4:23:07- and you're sitting here saying John Swinney is right.- No.
4:23:07 > 4:23:09Let's get yourself in order.
4:23:09 > 4:23:12- They said before the referendum it was once-in-a-generation.- Nope.
4:23:12 > 4:23:14The people of this country made a choice.
4:23:14 > 4:23:16They voted, more than two million people voted to stay in.
4:23:16 > 4:23:18And I voted No as well.
4:23:18 > 4:23:20We should honour that choice and we should make sure
4:23:20 > 4:23:23we speak up for the people who voted No.
4:23:23 > 4:23:25- Willie Rennie.- I think Ruth is right,
4:23:25 > 4:23:29we should honour the choice that people in Scotland made.
4:23:29 > 4:23:33It was supposed to be a once-in-a-lifetime opportunity.
4:23:33 > 4:23:35But the danger that the Conservative Party
4:23:35 > 4:23:37are imposing on Scotland is
4:23:37 > 4:23:41that they are now threatening to leave the European Union.
4:23:41 > 4:23:44Our ancestors would look down with incredulity
4:23:44 > 4:23:47if they even thought we were considering
4:23:47 > 4:23:49leaving the continent of Europe,
4:23:49 > 4:23:51and all the benefits that come with it.
4:23:51 > 4:23:53- We're not moving to the Caribbean! - Hold on, Tim.
4:23:53 > 4:23:58This is exactly what the Tories have put on Scotland.
4:23:58 > 4:24:00The danger is that, if we do leave,
4:24:00 > 4:24:04then it opens up the whole issue about independence all over again.
4:24:04 > 4:24:09And it is not because of the two million voters who voted No,
4:24:09 > 4:24:11it's because of Ruth's party.
4:24:11 > 4:24:13They're determined to keep the issue alive.
4:24:13 > 4:24:15Sorry, you say keep it alive,
4:24:15 > 4:24:17you've got the Prime Minister,
4:24:17 > 4:24:19I don't know how much it counts for here,
4:24:19 > 4:24:21but you've got the Prime Minister urging to stay, a remain vote.
4:24:21 > 4:24:24So why do you say the Conservatives are in favour of an out vote?
4:24:24 > 4:24:26There's large numbers of the Cabinet
4:24:26 > 4:24:30are arguing for exit, credible people on the other side,
4:24:30 > 4:24:32and it's all because the Tories
4:24:32 > 4:24:35cannot keep themselves together on Europe.
4:24:35 > 4:24:37They are now dividing the country as a result.
4:24:37 > 4:24:40I don't think that is in the interests of Scotland,
4:24:40 > 4:24:42I don't think it's in the interest of the UK.
4:24:42 > 4:24:46Can I just try this? Can I hear from anybody here in the audience
4:24:46 > 4:24:47who is going to vote out,
4:24:47 > 4:24:49and what they think the implications...
4:24:49 > 4:24:50A lot of hands going up!
4:24:50 > 4:24:52..what the implications would be.
4:24:52 > 4:24:54I'll take you, the man there on the gangway.
4:24:54 > 4:24:57I doubt that, in the event of Brexit,
4:24:57 > 4:25:02given the scale of the public finances in Scotland,
4:25:02 > 4:25:04the gaping big hole that we have,
4:25:04 > 4:25:08they prove the White Paper no better than bog roll,
4:25:08 > 4:25:12that the Scottish people would vote to leave the United Kingdom.
4:25:12 > 4:25:13Any other Brexit...?
4:25:13 > 4:25:17Yes, the person in the second row from the back there.
4:25:17 > 4:25:19I think it's ridiculous to suggest
4:25:19 > 4:25:22we should vote to rejoin an organisation,
4:25:22 > 4:25:23if we do stay a part of it,
4:25:23 > 4:25:25which costs us billions of pounds every year,
4:25:25 > 4:25:28which means that Scottish farms and Scottish fisheries
4:25:28 > 4:25:29are run by Brussels,
4:25:29 > 4:25:31which means that we don't have control
4:25:31 > 4:25:34over our own borders and we can choose who comes here,
4:25:34 > 4:25:36and which means that we have austerity
4:25:36 > 4:25:38forced on us by the European Union,
4:25:38 > 4:25:41as we've seen with Greece, as we've seen with Ireland.
4:25:41 > 4:25:44I have no idea why people would campaign to rejoin
4:25:44 > 4:25:45or stay part of an organisation
4:25:45 > 4:25:48which forces Scotland into these situations.
4:25:48 > 4:25:52Do you think Nicola Sturgeon, and indeed John Swinney's view,
4:25:52 > 4:25:54in Nicola Sturgeon's words,
4:25:54 > 4:25:56that almost certainly there would be a second referendum
4:25:56 > 4:26:00if the vote was Brexit? You think that is a policy
4:26:00 > 4:26:02that won't have traction here in Scotland,
4:26:02 > 4:26:03people object to it?
4:26:03 > 4:26:06Or do you think it will be something you go through
4:26:06 > 4:26:08and maybe Scotland votes independent?
4:26:08 > 4:26:10I think people would object to it on grounds that,
4:26:10 > 4:26:12why would we want to leave the United Kingdom,
4:26:12 > 4:26:14and the cost that would come with that,
4:26:14 > 4:26:17to rejoin an organisation which would cost us even more money
4:26:17 > 4:26:19and which we would then give away the control
4:26:19 > 4:26:20that we've just took back...?
4:26:20 > 4:26:22APPLAUSE
4:26:26 > 4:26:29I think what that argument doesn't pay attention to is,
4:26:29 > 4:26:32what are the views of the people of Scotland in all of this?
4:26:32 > 4:26:34Because if the people of Scotland
4:26:34 > 4:26:36have voted Yes to stay in the European Union,
4:26:36 > 4:26:40and the rest of the United Kingdom votes us out of the European Union,
4:26:40 > 4:26:44a fundamental promise and commitment that was given to people that,
4:26:44 > 4:26:46by voting No in the Scottish referendum,
4:26:46 > 4:26:49we would secure our membership of the European Union,
4:26:49 > 4:26:50will have been breached.
4:26:50 > 4:26:52Ultimately what I believe
4:26:52 > 4:26:55is that the people of Scotland are sovereign.
4:26:55 > 4:26:58They are the ones that are entitled to determine their own future and
4:26:58 > 4:27:01to decide to whom they give their sovereignty.
4:27:01 > 4:27:02Do they give it to Westminster
4:27:02 > 4:27:04or do they give it to the European Union,
4:27:04 > 4:27:05or do they retain it for themselves,
4:27:05 > 4:27:07or do they decide to share it with
4:27:07 > 4:27:09whatever institution they wish to share it with?
4:27:09 > 4:27:12That is a fundamental choice for the people of Scotland
4:27:12 > 4:27:15and nobody can take that choice away from the people of Scotland.
4:27:15 > 4:27:18The man there in the blue shirt. You were shaking your head at that.
4:27:18 > 4:27:22Are we holding politicians to stick to the promises?
4:27:22 > 4:27:23You promised it was
4:27:23 > 4:27:26- once-in-a-lifetime, so... - APPLAUSE
4:27:30 > 4:27:32What was the nature of the promise,
4:27:32 > 4:27:34that if Scotland voted No to independence
4:27:34 > 4:27:37it would mean you were guaranteed to stay in the EU?
4:27:37 > 4:27:41Because there'd already been the promise of a referendum on that.
4:27:41 > 4:27:45And at every single debate I did, you brought it up every single time.
4:27:45 > 4:27:48People knew when they were voting at the independence referendum
4:27:48 > 4:27:50that the Conservative Party had said
4:27:50 > 4:27:52we would have a referendum on the European Union
4:27:52 > 4:27:54and everyone would have their say.
4:27:54 > 4:27:57Ruth, come on, you listened to the same debates as I did.
4:27:57 > 4:27:59- I was in them.- The Prime Minister was here...
4:27:59 > 4:28:03The SNP raised this every single time.
4:28:03 > 4:28:04..saying to people,
4:28:04 > 4:28:07if you want to secure your place in the European Union,
4:28:07 > 4:28:09you cannot choose to vote Yes
4:28:09 > 4:28:11because it won't guarantee you membership.
4:28:11 > 4:28:14- Won't guarantee you entry.- That was the promise that the Prime Minister
4:28:14 > 4:28:16made to the people of Scotland and
4:28:16 > 4:28:18that will be broken if there is a Brexit.
4:28:18 > 4:28:19Every time you made a promise,
4:28:19 > 4:28:22that you would honour the referendum result,
4:28:22 > 4:28:24you wouldn't call a second one, it was once-in-a-generation...
4:28:24 > 4:28:27Your boss Nicola Sturgeon signed the Edinburgh Agreement
4:28:27 > 4:28:29that said we will respect the result.
4:28:29 > 4:28:32Why are you not respecting the result that we had 18 months ago?
4:28:33 > 4:28:35APPLAUSE
4:28:37 > 4:28:40We have entirely respected the result. We have worked to secure...
4:28:40 > 4:28:42- What? - LAUGHTER
4:28:42 > 4:28:45- Listen to them!- We have worked to secure the Smith Commission
4:28:45 > 4:28:47that agreed the further powers after it,
4:28:47 > 4:28:49we've worked to deliver the Scotland Bill
4:28:49 > 4:28:52which Parliament will consider in the next couple of weeks.
4:28:52 > 4:28:54We have respected the result but, fundamentally,
4:28:54 > 4:28:56we respect the right of the people of Scotland
4:28:56 > 4:28:58to determine their own constitutional future.
4:28:58 > 4:29:01Which is why there's a referendum on EU membership.
4:29:01 > 4:29:05- Their votes will be counted.- There is hardly a week goes by, John,
4:29:05 > 4:29:07that you don't seek an opportunity to say,
4:29:07 > 4:29:09"If this does not happen on our terms,
4:29:09 > 4:29:13"we are going to have another independence referendum."
4:29:13 > 4:29:14That's exactly what happened.
4:29:14 > 4:29:16You betrayed the trust of people.
4:29:16 > 4:29:18You said... People...
4:29:18 > 4:29:20You promised to the people of Scotland,
4:29:20 > 4:29:23that there would be a once-in-a-lifetime opportunity.
4:29:23 > 4:29:25You have gone back on that promise.
4:29:25 > 4:29:28I think people in Scotland will not forgive you for that.
4:29:28 > 4:29:33OK, you, yes. No. The man to his left.
4:29:35 > 4:29:37First point to Jenny Marra,
4:29:37 > 4:29:42you said that you're pushing again for the SNP to put
4:29:42 > 4:29:46in their manifesto that they would have another referendum.
4:29:46 > 4:29:48- No.- The clue is in the name,
4:29:48 > 4:29:51the Scottish National Party, their aim has never changed.
4:29:51 > 4:29:53It's like saying the Green Party,
4:29:53 > 4:29:56if they lost an election, would cease to be a Green Party.
4:29:56 > 4:30:01They are always for independence, you know. Get used to it.
4:30:01 > 4:30:04The second point is, Ruth Davidson, you know,
4:30:04 > 4:30:07David Cameron clearly came up to Scotland,
4:30:07 > 4:30:10and the whole Project Fear team, and told the people of Scotland,
4:30:10 > 4:30:14"If you vote No, you will be guaranteed to stay in
4:30:14 > 4:30:18"the EU, if you vote Yes, Scotland will be out the EU."
4:30:18 > 4:30:21That was a definite repeated threat
4:30:21 > 4:30:24- to the Scottish people. - APPLAUSE
4:30:25 > 4:30:26When you say...
4:30:26 > 4:30:29Third point... Can I just say..?
4:30:29 > 4:30:32You can't go all round the panel because you'll be here all night.
4:30:32 > 4:30:33Hold on a second, hold on.
4:30:33 > 4:30:36Did you or did you not know there was going to be a referendum...?
4:30:36 > 4:30:39Yes, which was promised in 2013.
4:30:39 > 4:30:43Yes, but the conflict between that was David Cameron and
4:30:43 > 4:30:46Project Fear coming to Scotland...
4:30:46 > 4:30:48These are two different things, aren't they? One is to say,
4:30:48 > 4:30:53"If you leave the UK, you are on your own,
4:30:53 > 4:30:55"you will have to make your own decisions
4:30:55 > 4:30:58"versus the EU and membership," the other is,
4:30:58 > 4:31:00"Stay but there is going to be a referendum."
4:31:00 > 4:31:01No, but the problem...
4:31:01 > 4:31:04It was definitely not expressed in that fashion,
4:31:04 > 4:31:05it was expressed in the fashion,
4:31:05 > 4:31:07"Vote No and you are guaranteed
4:31:07 > 4:31:09"to keep your membership of the European Union."
4:31:09 > 4:31:12That's what the Prime Minister promised to deliver.
4:31:12 > 4:31:13You were taken in, John, weren't you?
4:31:13 > 4:31:15Because you'd forgotten the referendum was coming.
4:31:15 > 4:31:18That's what was in the minds of people in Scotland.
4:31:18 > 4:31:20- That's what they were told. - Had you forgotten the referendum?
4:31:20 > 4:31:22I voted Yes in the referendum, David.
4:31:22 > 4:31:24On the European referendum.
4:31:24 > 4:31:26I'm very proud I voted Yes in the Scottish referendum.
4:31:26 > 4:31:28You haven't voted on the EU referendum yet,
4:31:28 > 4:31:29that's what I'm talking about.
4:31:29 > 4:31:32You, sir, in the middle there, shaking your head again.
4:31:32 > 4:31:34- Let's hear from you.- Ruth Davidson made my point
4:31:34 > 4:31:36that we knew there would be an in-out EU referendum
4:31:36 > 4:31:39if the Tories won the 2015 general election.
4:31:39 > 4:31:40We voted No, for better or worse,
4:31:40 > 4:31:42and John Swinney is effectively saying
4:31:42 > 4:31:44we were too stupid to understand that point
4:31:44 > 4:31:47- and he holds all the No voters in complete contempt.- No, I'm not.
4:31:47 > 4:31:48Not in the slightest.
4:31:48 > 4:31:52- APPLAUSE - Incredibly insulting.- OK.
4:31:52 > 4:31:53Yes.
4:31:53 > 4:31:56The thing that astonishes me, actually,
4:31:56 > 4:31:58is not that John Swinney or anybody else
4:31:58 > 4:32:01is forever banging on about a second referendum,
4:32:01 > 4:32:03it's the parties that were on the No side
4:32:03 > 4:32:05that can't give up talking about a second referendum.
4:32:05 > 4:32:08It's really quite bewildering.
4:32:08 > 4:32:09- Look...- I will happily stop.
4:32:09 > 4:32:12As soon as they repeat the words, "Once-in-a-generation,"
4:32:12 > 4:32:14I will happily never mention it again.
4:32:14 > 4:32:19For as long as they continue to threaten and push,
4:32:19 > 4:32:22someone has to stand up for the No voters.
4:32:22 > 4:32:24There are two choices to make in Scotland in the coming months.
4:32:24 > 4:32:27One is what kind of government are we going to elect
4:32:27 > 4:32:29and what kind of parliament are we going to elect,
4:32:29 > 4:32:32bold enough and strong enough to hold the Government to account?
4:32:32 > 4:32:35The second is whether we wish to stay members of
4:32:35 > 4:32:40a European Union which does strive for controls on bankers' excesses
4:32:40 > 4:32:42when the UK Government tries to block it,
4:32:42 > 4:32:44whether we want to stay part of a European Union
4:32:44 > 4:32:49that does try to get some degree of collective response
4:32:49 > 4:32:50to a humanitarian crisis in Europe,
4:32:50 > 4:32:53the likes of which we haven't seen for generations,
4:32:53 > 4:32:56- when a UK Government is saying, "We want none of it."- OK, fine.
4:32:56 > 4:32:58- I know which way I'm voting. - APPLAUSE
4:32:58 > 4:33:01Let's just...just take...
4:33:01 > 4:33:03We can't stick on Europe all the time,
4:33:03 > 4:33:06but I want to take this question from John Gordon,
4:33:06 > 4:33:07if we can find you?
4:33:07 > 4:33:12Hi. Is the In/Out vote on Europe not important enough
4:33:12 > 4:33:15to listen to what the Queen thinks about it?
4:33:15 > 4:33:17Ah, should...? Yes.
4:33:17 > 4:33:19Do you think it is?
4:33:19 > 4:33:22I think she does more for the country
4:33:22 > 4:33:25than half of the people elected in Westminster.
4:33:25 > 4:33:27APPLAUSE
4:33:27 > 4:33:31Because the Sun, of course, had a headline this week saying,
4:33:31 > 4:33:32"Queen backs Brexit,"
4:33:32 > 4:33:35and reports had her as telling MPs at a reception,
4:33:35 > 4:33:37"I don't understand Europe,"
4:33:37 > 4:33:41and later saying the EU is heading in the wrong direction.
4:33:41 > 4:33:45So the question is, why shouldn't we know what the Queen thinks?
4:33:45 > 4:33:48Tim Stanley, do you think we should know what the Queen thinks?
4:33:48 > 4:33:50Only if she wanted us to know.
4:33:50 > 4:33:53The important point about that conversation is it was private.
4:33:53 > 4:33:54Now, when the news got out,
4:33:54 > 4:33:56the newspaper was right to report it
4:33:56 > 4:33:59because that's what newspapers exist to do.
4:33:59 > 4:34:01What shouldn't have happened
4:34:01 > 4:34:03is that politicians shouldn't have gossiped
4:34:03 > 4:34:06about what the Queen may or may not have said allegedly in private.
4:34:06 > 4:34:07That was the mistake.
4:34:07 > 4:34:09Now, having said all of that though,
4:34:09 > 4:34:13whenever we think about the monarchy and its role in public life,
4:34:13 > 4:34:15it's very much shaped by the particular monarch
4:34:15 > 4:34:17that Elizabeth II has chosen to be.
4:34:17 > 4:34:19Historically, it's unusual to have a monarch
4:34:19 > 4:34:21who's this removed from politics.
4:34:21 > 4:34:24Queen Victoria used to write passionate letters
4:34:24 > 4:34:28to the newspapers, for example, demanding a ban on animal testing.
4:34:28 > 4:34:30So monarchs have often been involved in politics
4:34:30 > 4:34:31and it wouldn't surprise me
4:34:31 > 4:34:34if a monarch was concerned about the loss of sovereignty.
4:34:34 > 4:34:37It wouldn't surprise me if a monarch was concerned
4:34:37 > 4:34:39about the cost of being a member of the European Union.
4:34:39 > 4:34:42And it wouldn't surprise me if a monarch felt privately,
4:34:42 > 4:34:45we are the fifth-largest economy in the world,
4:34:45 > 4:34:48we are a damn important country, we can afford to go it alone.
4:34:49 > 4:34:52The question is not... APPLAUSE
4:34:52 > 4:34:55The question is not whether you would be surprised
4:34:55 > 4:34:57at what the Queen may or may not think,
4:34:57 > 4:34:59but whether all of us should be entitled
4:34:59 > 4:35:01on an issue this important
4:35:01 > 4:35:02to know what she thinks?
4:35:02 > 4:35:04That's what the question is.
4:35:04 > 4:35:07No, because that is not her constitutional role.
4:35:07 > 4:35:08Having said that,
4:35:08 > 4:35:11if she had intended people to know, then obviously we should know.
4:35:11 > 4:35:14Again, I re-emphasise, we know in the '80s, or we're pretty sure,
4:35:14 > 4:35:17that the Queen spoke about how she was distressed
4:35:17 > 4:35:19about the state of poverty in Britain,
4:35:19 > 4:35:21and she was concerned about apartheid in South Africa
4:35:21 > 4:35:23and the state of the Commonwealth.
4:35:23 > 4:35:26Don't imagine that monarchs have no political views.
4:35:26 > 4:35:30So, John Swinney, when she said before the Scottish referendum,
4:35:30 > 4:35:33"I hope people will think carefully about the future,"
4:35:33 > 4:35:36in your view, was that a deliberate, intentional intervention?
4:35:36 > 4:35:37No, I don't.
4:35:37 > 4:35:40I think it was the Queen setting out
4:35:40 > 4:35:44that kind of thoughtful position that we would expect from the Queen.
4:35:44 > 4:35:47And I think the point that I agree with from what Tim's said is
4:35:47 > 4:35:51that, if the Queen's had a private conversation with senior members
4:35:51 > 4:35:54of Government on Privy Council terms -
4:35:54 > 4:35:56which we all know what the rules mean,
4:35:56 > 4:35:58they are supposed to be kept private -
4:35:58 > 4:36:01and a member of the Government has thought it fit
4:36:01 > 4:36:05to go to Rupert Murdoch's wedding and then have a conversation there
4:36:05 > 4:36:09which miraculously results in this story being reported
4:36:09 > 4:36:10on the front page of the Sun,
4:36:10 > 4:36:13it says more about senior members of the Government
4:36:13 > 4:36:15than it says about the Queen.
4:36:15 > 4:36:17So you think it was Michael Gove, do you?
4:36:17 > 4:36:19APPLAUSE
4:36:19 > 4:36:23Well, is it just me that's been wound up by that conspiracy theory
4:36:23 > 4:36:26or is that maybe something that might have happened?
4:36:26 > 4:36:31I think essentially, if the Queen is going to be outside of politics,
4:36:31 > 4:36:32which she's chosen to be -
4:36:32 > 4:36:36other than on the occasions where Tim quite rightly says
4:36:36 > 4:36:40she says something definitive, publicly or with her own words -
4:36:40 > 4:36:43then I think we should respect the Queen's decision
4:36:43 > 4:36:44not to be involved in politics.
4:36:44 > 4:36:45You, sir? Up there?
4:36:45 > 4:36:49I would like to take the panel up on the idea that the Queen
4:36:49 > 4:36:52is supposedly outside of politics when, as you have been discussing,
4:36:52 > 4:36:55she was apparently having some kind of tirade
4:36:55 > 4:36:57in a Privy Council meeting over lunch
4:36:57 > 4:37:01and quite possibly that may have been what influenced Michael Gove.
4:37:01 > 4:37:03She's a masterful politician,
4:37:03 > 4:37:06and with the calibre of some of our actual elected politicians,
4:37:06 > 4:37:08it's quite possible she's exerting
4:37:08 > 4:37:10much more of an influence than she should.
4:37:10 > 4:37:14- So she managed to win over Michael Gove?- You can imagine it.
4:37:14 > 4:37:18All right, Ruth Davidson, can you imagine the scene?
4:37:18 > 4:37:21I think I would go further than the original questioner
4:37:21 > 4:37:24when he says he thinks the Queen's done more
4:37:24 > 4:37:26than most elected politicians,
4:37:26 > 4:37:29I think she's done more than all elected politicians
4:37:29 > 4:37:31put together for the last 64 years.
4:37:31 > 4:37:33And I think there's a difference
4:37:33 > 4:37:36between unnamed sources gossiping about somebody else
4:37:36 > 4:37:40and gossiping about somebody who's done so much, particularly
4:37:40 > 4:37:44because she's stayed above politics and had a studied neutrality.
4:37:44 > 4:37:47Because she's not able to correct the record the next day
4:37:47 > 4:37:48and phone up the Sun.
4:37:48 > 4:37:52What we should remember as well is that, one, the palace denied it
4:37:52 > 4:37:55and has asked for an investigation to be launched by Ipso.
4:37:55 > 4:37:57Two, the Deputy Prime Minister
4:37:57 > 4:38:00who was supposed to be a protagonist in this conversation,
4:38:00 > 4:38:02has utterly denied it.
4:38:02 > 4:38:03And three, the only people
4:38:03 > 4:38:06that seem to have graced the pages of the Sun with this
4:38:06 > 4:38:09are utterly anonymous and won't put their hands up.
4:38:09 > 4:38:12So we seem to have a story that no-one can stand up.
4:38:12 > 4:38:14And I think when you have a person like the Queen
4:38:14 > 4:38:18who's done so much for a country because she's stayed above politics,
4:38:18 > 4:38:20and is then unable to make her position clear after the fact...
4:38:20 > 4:38:23Actually, I think that while I understand newspapers
4:38:23 > 4:38:26have to report news, this would have been best left alone
4:38:26 > 4:38:28by the people who spoke to the Sun newspaper.
4:38:28 > 4:38:31OK, anybody else want to come in on this? Yes?
4:38:31 > 4:38:36Whether you take a positive view or not
4:38:36 > 4:38:39of how the current monarch has done her job,
4:38:39 > 4:38:44there is a very good reason why she's not entitled to have a vote,
4:38:44 > 4:38:47either in elections or in a referendum.
4:38:47 > 4:38:51You know, if this is someone who wished to be a private citizen
4:38:51 > 4:38:52and to exercise a vote,
4:38:52 > 4:38:55maybe even a vote for who the head of state would be
4:38:55 > 4:38:57and we could all have a vote on that, I would welcome it.
4:38:57 > 4:39:00Obviously it's difficult for someone in that position
4:39:00 > 4:39:02not to form a personal, private view.
4:39:02 > 4:39:04But to take a political stance,
4:39:04 > 4:39:07whether in relation to members of the Privy Council
4:39:07 > 4:39:11or in any other setting, is entirely at odds with her current role.
4:39:11 > 4:39:14And if this private citizen called Elizabeth Windsor
4:39:14 > 4:39:16wanted to have that different role, she should say so.
4:39:16 > 4:39:22Are you alleging the story is true? Are you implying that it's true?
4:39:22 > 4:39:24It's in the Sun, so form your own judgment.
4:39:24 > 4:39:26LAUGHTER
4:39:26 > 4:39:28I don't know what you mean by that. APPLAUSE
4:39:28 > 4:39:31The thing that nauseates me most about this story
4:39:31 > 4:39:35was hearing the editor of the Sun on the radio this morning,
4:39:35 > 4:39:39claiming they've done this to stand up for ordinary people
4:39:39 > 4:39:40against powerful elites.
4:39:40 > 4:39:44To hear the editor of a Murdoch-owned newspaper saying
4:39:44 > 4:39:47we should all pay attention to what the Queen thinks
4:39:47 > 4:39:51because elites are a bad thing just makes my blood boil.
4:39:51 > 4:39:53Do you want to come in on this?
4:39:53 > 4:39:55I think for the strength of our country,
4:39:55 > 4:39:58I think however anyone feels about the monarchy,
4:39:58 > 4:40:04people would recognise that one of the main advantages of our Queen now
4:40:04 > 4:40:07is she's stayed out and taken the decision, as Tim said...
4:40:07 > 4:40:09monarchs have the decision to get involved or not,
4:40:09 > 4:40:11she's taken the decision,
4:40:11 > 4:40:14and that's been a strength of our democracy and that should maintain.
4:40:14 > 4:40:18If people have private conversations with her, that should be respected.
4:40:18 > 4:40:21Willie Rennie, do you want to come in on this?
4:40:21 > 4:40:22No, no, it's fine. Move on.
4:40:22 > 4:40:26You're done? OK, all done, as they say in the auctioneers'.
4:40:26 > 4:40:29I'm in the auctioneers', all done.
4:40:29 > 4:40:32A question from Kathy Aliberti, please. Yes?
4:40:32 > 4:40:35Yes. Scottish Government figures yesterday revealed
4:40:35 > 4:40:37a £15 billion deficit.
4:40:37 > 4:40:41Is the economic case for independence now dead?
4:40:41 > 4:40:45This goes to the heart of the whole business, I think. Ruth Davidson?
4:40:45 > 4:40:48Somebody very close to the independence project,
4:40:48 > 4:40:52a guy called Alex Bell, a chief adviser to Alex Salmond
4:40:52 > 4:40:53during the White Paper-writing process
4:40:53 > 4:40:55said the economic case was dead,
4:40:55 > 4:40:58that you can't sell a case for low taxation,
4:40:58 > 4:41:03high welfare on an oil price that was unusually high,
4:41:03 > 4:41:07with revenues that were unassailable and unprovable,
4:41:07 > 4:41:10and they've been found out.
4:41:10 > 4:41:12The truth of the pudding has been in the eating.
4:41:12 > 4:41:16I think, without going back over the very first question
4:41:16 > 4:41:17we had on the programme today,
4:41:17 > 4:41:21I think that not only is Scotland better off for being part of the UK,
4:41:21 > 4:41:24and we see that by the Scottish Government's own figures,
4:41:24 > 4:41:25to the tune of £1,400 per person,
4:41:25 > 4:41:28but I think the UK's better off for having us in it.
4:41:28 > 4:41:31I think, this decision having been made,
4:41:31 > 4:41:32we should be pulling together,
4:41:32 > 4:41:35trying to maximise all of our country, both sides of the border,
4:41:35 > 4:41:38to bring in more investment from other countries and elsewhere.
4:41:38 > 4:41:41The argument made was about the oil price, wasn't it?
4:41:41 > 4:41:43That was where the dip in revenue came?
4:41:43 > 4:41:46It was about actually the oil revenue, rather than the oil price.
4:41:46 > 4:41:49This is the distinction that John Swinney's probably going to try
4:41:49 > 4:41:51and blur because he likes to say
4:41:51 > 4:41:53nobody suspected the oil price would drop
4:41:53 > 4:41:55and we all got it wrong and that is just nonsense.
4:41:55 > 4:41:58The difference is, we were saying even two years ago -
4:41:58 > 4:42:01I stood up at First Ministers' Questions and said,
4:42:01 > 4:42:04the OBR says that oil revenue for next year will be about £3 billion.
4:42:04 > 4:42:07Alex Salmond tried to swat me aside, saying, don't be ridiculous,
4:42:07 > 4:42:08it'll be £8 billion.
4:42:08 > 4:42:11Actually it's going to be a lot lower than that.
4:42:11 > 4:42:13We did know there was going to be a drop in revenue
4:42:13 > 4:42:16and the cost of extraction was going to be higher.
4:42:16 > 4:42:18We did know there would not be as much profits,
4:42:18 > 4:42:21which meant we couldn't tax the companies as much,
4:42:21 > 4:42:25which meant there wouldn't be as much money flowing into the coffers.
4:42:25 > 4:42:26The difference is,
4:42:26 > 4:42:30the SNP didn't make a case based on the fact that, we'll be independent
4:42:30 > 4:42:33and we might take a short-term financial hit and move on,
4:42:33 > 4:42:36they made a case promising Scottish people they would be £500 richer.
4:42:36 > 4:42:39They knew that case was wrong when they made it, it was false,
4:42:39 > 4:42:41they knew it and tried to con the Scottish public.
4:42:41 > 4:42:44And I'm so glad that two million people voted No.
4:42:44 > 4:42:46APPLAUSE
4:42:50 > 4:42:51So just before I go to Mr Swinney,
4:42:51 > 4:42:55you are saying the drop in the oil price is irrelevant?
4:42:55 > 4:42:57No, I'm not saying it's irrelevant.
4:42:57 > 4:42:59Obviously, we'd like to see a higher oil price,
4:42:59 > 4:43:00but I will say is that the idea
4:43:00 > 4:43:03we didn't know that oil revenues would be lower than they had been
4:43:03 > 4:43:06and than was being promised, that is false.
4:43:06 > 4:43:07John Swinney?
4:43:07 > 4:43:11What's at the heart of this debate is a debate about whether
4:43:11 > 4:43:14we have economic confidence here in Scotland.
4:43:14 > 4:43:17And, when I look at the data published yesterday,
4:43:17 > 4:43:22and of course the data contains very difficult news
4:43:22 > 4:43:24because of the fall in the oil price -
4:43:24 > 4:43:26and I don't think it's an irrelevant factor,
4:43:26 > 4:43:29it's a very significant fall in the oil price...
4:43:29 > 4:43:33Sorry, why do you think it's not irrelevant and she thinks it is?
4:43:33 > 4:43:37Ruth can answer for herself, but I think it is not irrelevant
4:43:37 > 4:43:40because the oil price has fallen very dramatically
4:43:40 > 4:43:42compared to where it had been.
4:43:42 > 4:43:46The issue is how we nurture and encourage the investment climate
4:43:46 > 4:43:51to ensure we can make the most of the resource available to us.
4:43:51 > 4:43:52If you look at the data -
4:43:52 > 4:43:55and it's not my data, it's independent data -
4:43:55 > 4:44:00it shows there is still a viable and strong North Sea oil and gas sector,
4:44:00 > 4:44:02if we can get the financial arrangements
4:44:02 > 4:44:03correct for that sector.
4:44:03 > 4:44:08And also if it is supported by an effective and higher oil price,
4:44:08 > 4:44:11because oil companies are struggling to prosper
4:44:11 > 4:44:15on the type of oil price that we have at the present moment.
4:44:15 > 4:44:19The key judgment people have to make about the figures yesterday
4:44:19 > 4:44:22is whether we take one year and say, "Well, that's it,"
4:44:22 > 4:44:24or whether we look at a nation's finances
4:44:24 > 4:44:26over a longer period of time.
4:44:26 > 4:44:30Anyone who looks at a country's finances on a one-year basis
4:44:30 > 4:44:33could look at the UK and Scotland in 2008 and say,
4:44:33 > 4:44:36the deficit in the UK is double that of Scotland,
4:44:36 > 4:44:38so it is all over for the United Kingdom.
4:44:38 > 4:44:42That is the kind of rational that Ruth and her colleagues
4:44:42 > 4:44:44are trying to get us to believe today.
4:44:44 > 4:44:47So what I think we should take confidence from in Scotland
4:44:47 > 4:44:50is that our economic performance is improving,
4:44:50 > 4:44:53we have higher employment than the rest of the United Kingdom,
4:44:53 > 4:44:55we have growing productivity in Scotland,
4:44:55 > 4:44:59much higher than the rest of the UK in terms of growth and productivity,
4:44:59 > 4:45:01and we are seeing a growth in onshore revenues in Scotland
4:45:01 > 4:45:03which should give us confidence.
4:45:03 > 4:45:05- John...- That is the heart of the argument
4:45:05 > 4:45:08for economic self confidence here in Scotland.
4:45:08 > 4:45:11ALL TALK AT ONCE/ APPLAUSE
4:45:12 > 4:45:14You go, Jane.
4:45:14 > 4:45:17In terms of GDP, our deficit in Scotland is double that of the UK.
4:45:17 > 4:45:20Our deficit is the largest in the whole of the European Union.
4:45:20 > 4:45:22APPLAUSE
4:45:22 > 4:45:24- Let her speak.- You've had your say.
4:45:24 > 4:45:27I find it really sad, the figures yesterday,
4:45:27 > 4:45:29because I am sitting on a UK panel,
4:45:29 > 4:45:31we're all representing Scotland,
4:45:31 > 4:45:35and actually, productivity and this deficit is so high.
4:45:35 > 4:45:38What does it say to people in Scotland that want jobs?
4:45:38 > 4:45:42Where are the jobs for people who have been made redundant in Dundee?
4:45:42 > 4:45:45When are your government going to address this
4:45:45 > 4:45:47instead of hiding behind these figures
4:45:47 > 4:45:52which blow your case for independence apart completely?
4:45:52 > 4:45:54APPLAUSE
4:45:54 > 4:45:56Let's... Let's...
4:45:58 > 4:46:02Let's take two of the things you have said. You asked about jobs.
4:46:02 > 4:46:05Scotland has a higher employment rate today
4:46:05 > 4:46:08than any other country in the UK.
4:46:08 > 4:46:11That is a fact, so we are in a stronger employment position
4:46:11 > 4:46:14- than any country in the UK. - John, you go and tell that
4:46:14 > 4:46:17to people in Dundee who have just been made redundant.
4:46:17 > 4:46:21Listen, I give every support and do everything I can
4:46:21 > 4:46:23to boost the Scottish economy,
4:46:23 > 4:46:26which is why we have a higher employment rate
4:46:26 > 4:46:28than any part of the UK.
4:46:28 > 4:46:31Labour politicians should occasionally celebrate that,
4:46:31 > 4:46:34not condemn the government for delivering that in Scotland.
4:46:34 > 4:46:39Secondly, on productivity there has been a 4.4% increase
4:46:39 > 4:46:42in productivity in Scotland since the SNP government came to power.
4:46:42 > 4:46:45Compared to 0.2% for the rest of the UK.
4:46:45 > 4:46:48OK. All right. Let's not get into that detail. You, sir, up there.
4:46:48 > 4:46:52I don't think the employment figures are true on what you are saying.
4:46:52 > 4:46:55Because when you take the people who have been sanctioned,
4:46:55 > 4:46:58in Britain but particularly in Scotland,
4:46:58 > 4:47:02they just wipe those people off the books.
4:47:02 > 4:47:04It is not more jobs being created.
4:47:04 > 4:47:07You see people unemployed around Dundee, like the lady is saying,
4:47:07 > 4:47:11and the people on the streets in Dundee, and homeless and all.
4:47:11 > 4:47:14They are not employed, so where are you getting these jobs from
4:47:14 > 4:47:17that your figures are dreaming up? They're not real jobs.
4:47:17 > 4:47:20- They're off the books. - Willie Rennie.
4:47:20 > 4:47:23I think John is being far too modest.
4:47:23 > 4:47:27John predicted this would happen because he produced,
4:47:27 > 4:47:31I don't know if you all remember, this secret Cabinet paper
4:47:31 > 4:47:35which was subsequently published in the newspapers.
4:47:35 > 4:47:38And it told us that Scotland's finances
4:47:38 > 4:47:40would be prone to volatility
4:47:40 > 4:47:43because of an oil price that may be volatile,
4:47:43 > 4:47:46that the pensions issue would be a major concern,
4:47:46 > 4:47:51that as a result there may be cuts to public services, cuts to jobs.
4:47:51 > 4:47:54So John is being far too modest because he predicted this before.
4:47:54 > 4:47:57- Then he spent the next two years trying to...- It might help
4:47:57 > 4:47:59if you quote what I actually said, Willie.
4:47:59 > 4:48:00Not what you've just made that up.
4:48:00 > 4:48:02- You've just made that up. - Trying to...
4:48:02 > 4:48:04You've made that up, I can assure you.
4:48:04 > 4:48:07Hang on. Let's sort this out. He says you've made it up.
4:48:07 > 4:48:10You predicted all those things.
4:48:10 > 4:48:13- Hang on. He says you made it up. - Well, he's wrong.- No, no...
4:48:13 > 4:48:17- This is John's modesty taking over again.- No, no...
4:48:17 > 4:48:21He said it two years ago and spent the rest of the campaign dismissing
4:48:21 > 4:48:23everything he was right about.
4:48:23 > 4:48:26The argument I was putting forward
4:48:26 > 4:48:29was the need for us to take long-term protection
4:48:29 > 4:48:32to create an oil fund, like Norway, which is now worth £580 billion.
4:48:32 > 4:48:35ALL TALK AT ONCE
4:48:35 > 4:48:38And we've got nothing to show for it in Scotland.
4:48:38 > 4:48:39This is wonderful.
4:48:39 > 4:48:42If everything is desperate, reach for the oil fund!
4:48:42 > 4:48:45- The reality...- It's worth 580 billion in Norway!
4:48:45 > 4:48:48Come on, John. What you would need...
4:48:48 > 4:48:53What you would need is growth rates five times higher than China
4:48:53 > 4:48:57in order to make up for this £15 billion deficit.
4:48:57 > 4:49:02That is the scale of the challenge. We know about Chinese growth rates.
4:49:02 > 4:49:04- They are not really real.- OK.
4:49:04 > 4:49:06But John's growth rates are not real either.
4:49:06 > 4:49:08APPLAUSE
4:49:08 > 4:49:11Patrick Harvie. I will come to a member of the audience.
4:49:11 > 4:49:12Until that little set to,
4:49:12 > 4:49:16we were in real danger of having a thoughtful conversation!
4:49:16 > 4:49:20Cathy's question is very clearly asking
4:49:20 > 4:49:23whether the long-term case for independence
4:49:23 > 4:49:26is effectively dead as a result of these figures.
4:49:26 > 4:49:29I would say the SNP's case for independence is challenged,
4:49:29 > 4:49:32but one of the reasons why the Greens never signed up
4:49:32 > 4:49:34to the big book of answers in the White Paper
4:49:34 > 4:49:40was that it was so heavily dependent on an oil-based future.
4:49:40 > 4:49:42Greens see this as a challenge,
4:49:42 > 4:49:45not just for Scotland but for all countries,
4:49:45 > 4:49:48to break our over reliance on fossil fuels
4:49:48 > 4:49:52before it is too late, not just for our climate
4:49:52 > 4:49:53but for our economy as well.
4:49:53 > 4:49:56This is a warning not just from climate change activists.
4:49:56 > 4:49:59It came recently from the governor of the Bank of England,
4:49:59 > 4:50:02demonstrating that our over reliance on fossil fuel,
4:50:02 > 4:50:04an overvalued industry,
4:50:04 > 4:50:07because we can't afford to burn everything we have found already,
4:50:07 > 4:50:11this is a source of potential immense financial instability
4:50:11 > 4:50:13for this country's economy.
4:50:13 > 4:50:16Not just for areas like the Northeast,
4:50:16 > 4:50:18which have a lot of direct dependence on oil and gas,
4:50:18 > 4:50:21but on our whole economy as well.
4:50:21 > 4:50:23So the challenge for us has to be
4:50:23 > 4:50:25to find a break with that dead future
4:50:25 > 4:50:28and invest in the alternative.
4:50:28 > 4:50:31There are hundreds of thousands of jobs to be generated
4:50:31 > 4:50:32in the long-term -
4:50:32 > 4:50:36lasting, sustainable, well-paid jobs of the future.
4:50:36 > 4:50:37Industries that can last,
4:50:37 > 4:50:40not those that will be here today and gone tomorrow.
4:50:40 > 4:50:42That is the challenge for Scotland.
4:50:42 > 4:50:45I think we can meet that challenge in the context of independence
4:50:45 > 4:50:47one day, as many other small, independent
4:50:47 > 4:50:50northern European countries do, including those without oil.
4:50:50 > 4:50:52But whether we do it within the UK
4:50:52 > 4:50:55or outside of it as a strong independent country,
4:50:55 > 4:50:58this is an urgent break we have to make in our economy
4:50:58 > 4:51:02- because oil and gas is not our future.- Thank you.
4:51:02 > 4:51:03APPLAUSE The man there.
4:51:03 > 4:51:06Then I'll come to you, up there.
4:51:06 > 4:51:07Yes, the man in the corner.
4:51:07 > 4:51:11I think it's ridiculous to say that because of this black hole
4:51:11 > 4:51:13that Scotland can't be independent.
4:51:13 > 4:51:16The UK is like, £1.3 trillion in debt. It is ridiculous.
4:51:16 > 4:51:17For David Cameron and George Osborne
4:51:17 > 4:51:21to keep saying it's the last Labour government's fault,
4:51:21 > 4:51:24if I had a pound for every time they have said that
4:51:24 > 4:51:27I could probably pay for this black hole myself.
4:51:27 > 4:51:32APPLAUSE Yes, you and then you.
4:51:32 > 4:51:35I believe that Scotland needs to be led
4:51:35 > 4:51:37without any more insecurity of referendums,
4:51:37 > 4:51:39money being wasted on referendums.
4:51:39 > 4:51:43Because if we were to invest that money in making Scotland great,
4:51:43 > 4:51:46less people would want to leave Scotland,
4:51:46 > 4:51:49rather than just Scotland leaving the UK or Europe.
4:51:49 > 4:51:51APPLAUSE And you.
4:51:51 > 4:51:55I despair, listening to this panel.
4:51:55 > 4:51:59Every single one of you, what is the vision for the UK
4:51:59 > 4:52:01in terms of taking forward finances?
4:52:01 > 4:52:04Today, we have 1,500 jobs in Glasgow City Council,
4:52:04 > 4:52:08jobs going in the NHS, jobs going in local authorities.
4:52:08 > 4:52:11Everybody is sitting arguing amongst themselves.
4:52:11 > 4:52:15What is your vision for the future to improve things?
4:52:15 > 4:52:16Don't sit and argue.
4:52:16 > 4:52:18APPLAUSE
4:52:18 > 4:52:20I haven't brought Tim Stanley in, so I will.
4:52:20 > 4:52:22Obviously, I hadn't spoken yet.
4:52:22 > 4:52:26Let me give... As an Englishman, let me give my vision for Scotland.
4:52:26 > 4:52:30It's... I bet you were waiting for that(!)
4:52:30 > 4:52:32A very dangerous thing to do!
4:52:32 > 4:52:35It's obvious that the SNP gambled on the oil price
4:52:35 > 4:52:41remaining as high as it was so they could finance independence.
4:52:41 > 4:52:44But I do hope we are not all overtaken
4:52:44 > 4:52:46by a spirit of I told you so.
4:52:46 > 4:52:51Partly because I think it is unhelpful, but also because, to me,
4:52:51 > 4:52:53this shortfall and rising deficit
4:52:53 > 4:52:56makes the positive case for unionism.
4:52:56 > 4:52:59I am a believer in the old-fashioned principle
4:52:59 > 4:53:01of Britain being one nation,
4:53:01 > 4:53:03which means we are undivided by region,
4:53:03 > 4:53:05or by class or language.
4:53:05 > 4:53:09It means if one part of the country is running short of cash,
4:53:09 > 4:53:11the other part steps in and helps out.
4:53:11 > 4:53:14That, to me, is the principle of unionism,
4:53:14 > 4:53:16the idea that we are a family
4:53:16 > 4:53:20with collective responsibility for each other.
4:53:20 > 4:53:23APPLAUSE
4:53:23 > 4:53:24Sorry, you are shouting
4:53:24 > 4:53:28and I don't normally bring in people who are shouting out
4:53:28 > 4:53:30because it gets so noisy, but have a go.
4:53:30 > 4:53:36- I have just relocated from the Lake District...- To Dundee?
4:53:36 > 4:53:39To Dundee, yes. The reason I have done this,
4:53:39 > 4:53:42as an Englishman with some Irish ancestry way back,
4:53:42 > 4:53:46is because I can see things happening in Scotland
4:53:46 > 4:53:48that thrill me, that excite me,
4:53:48 > 4:53:52that make me feel this is a country going somewhere.
4:53:52 > 4:53:55When you talk about... I know you're a member of...
4:53:55 > 4:53:56probably a Tory sympathiser,
4:53:56 > 4:53:59..when you talk about the Union helping people,
4:53:59 > 4:54:01living in the Lake District
4:54:01 > 4:54:03I felt like a colony of the south-east of England.
4:54:03 > 4:54:05It seemed to be run for the City.
4:54:07 > 4:54:12It was not run for the benefit of England, but for the south-east.
4:54:12 > 4:54:14- Yes, but the south-east of England...- Let me finish.
4:54:14 > 4:54:17..feels like a colony of the south-east of England.
4:54:17 > 4:54:18We hate that as much.
4:54:18 > 4:54:22But you're arguing for is voting for socialism, not independence.
4:54:22 > 4:54:24Let me finish, please.
4:54:24 > 4:54:27The point is that Scotland uniquely has the chance
4:54:27 > 4:54:32to go forward on a smaller, flexible, dynamic basis.
4:54:32 > 4:54:34I was delighted to get the chance to move here.
4:54:34 > 4:54:36It is becoming a bit like Canada is
4:54:36 > 4:54:40for the potential of being under Trump in the United States.
4:54:40 > 4:54:41People who can are moving.
4:54:41 > 4:54:43Ruth, do you want to answer?
4:54:43 > 4:54:45Yeah, I'd like to answer this lady here.
4:54:45 > 4:54:47I think there has been a lot of work
4:54:47 > 4:54:50trying to make sure we have a positive economic vision
4:54:50 > 4:54:53for the whole country. Things like reducing corporation tax
4:54:53 > 4:54:54to encourage investment,
4:54:54 > 4:54:57having the highest rate of growth in the last three years
4:54:57 > 4:54:59out of all the G-7 nations.
4:54:59 > 4:55:00That means doing things in Scotland.
4:55:00 > 4:55:05I want to see more apprenticeships, not cutting 152,000 college places,
4:55:05 > 4:55:07so we can train the next...
4:55:07 > 4:55:10we can have more investment in vocational training
4:55:10 > 4:55:11and train the next generation.
4:55:11 > 4:55:13These are things we're trying to do
4:55:13 > 4:55:15and I want to see happening in this country
4:55:15 > 4:55:17to harness the growth we are seeing.
4:55:17 > 4:55:19Yet more tax breaks for big businesses.
4:55:19 > 4:55:22How different from the UK's agenda for the last 30 years!
4:55:22 > 4:55:27You can see... consistent corporation tax cuts
4:55:27 > 4:55:30under Tory, under Labour, under the coalition.
4:55:30 > 4:55:33This has been a flat line corporation tax cut
4:55:33 > 4:55:36and it fails to achieve a fair, equal and sustainable economy.
4:55:36 > 4:55:37If you don't understand there's a link
4:55:37 > 4:55:40between reducing corporation tax and encouraging business growth...
4:55:40 > 4:55:42Seeing the biggest economic growth of any G-7 nation
4:55:42 > 4:55:45- and more people in employment... - Half of them aren't paying taxes.
4:55:45 > 4:55:47Here is something you will like...
4:55:47 > 4:55:48Here is something you will like,
4:55:48 > 4:55:51something very simple that could be done, which has been done,
4:55:51 > 4:55:54which is put in a business champion at every embassy in the UK
4:55:54 > 4:55:56around the world, to get businesses into other countries
4:55:56 > 4:55:58and help them around the world.
4:55:58 > 4:55:59These are things everyone can agree on,
4:55:59 > 4:56:02positive visions and actions we can take to make sure
4:56:02 > 4:56:04the next generation know there are jobs on the horizon.
4:56:04 > 4:56:07While we flog off our local high street to the multinationals
4:56:07 > 4:56:09and the big corporations, what a lot of nonsense.
4:56:09 > 4:56:11We've got only a quarter of an hour left.
4:56:11 > 4:56:13I'll take one or two more points on this and move on.
4:56:13 > 4:56:17The man behind you in the white shirt.
4:56:17 > 4:56:23When we're talking about financials and the money, etc,
4:56:23 > 4:56:25one of the things I do find unusual
4:56:25 > 4:56:30is that you are talking about "lies, damn lies, and statistics,"
4:56:30 > 4:56:34and then, frankly, figures put out by political parties.
4:56:34 > 4:56:38Isn't it time we had, like in England,
4:56:38 > 4:56:42a Scottish OBR so we could get some genuine figures
4:56:42 > 4:56:45and we can make an informed decision?
4:56:45 > 4:56:48We actually... I came from Parliament in Edinburgh tonight.
4:56:48 > 4:56:51At 6:15pm tonight, Parliament legislated for the establishment of
4:56:51 > 4:56:54the Scottish Fiscal Commission, which will do exactly what you say.
4:56:54 > 4:56:57It would be independent of Parliament and government and give
4:56:57 > 4:57:00- the statistics you are looking for. - There you have your answer.
4:57:00 > 4:57:02I'll just come back to the questioner.
4:57:02 > 4:57:04You've heard all this, what do you make of it?
4:57:04 > 4:57:05Your question was whether
4:57:05 > 4:57:07the economic case for independence was now dead.
4:57:07 > 4:57:08As we say in Scotland,
4:57:08 > 4:57:12the economic case for independence was hung on a shoogly peg.
4:57:12 > 4:57:13Now it has fallen to the floor.
4:57:13 > 4:57:16I'm horrified that the SNP want to try
4:57:16 > 4:57:19and rehang that case on the very same peg.
4:57:19 > 4:57:21Those of us who predicted this situation
4:57:21 > 4:57:24were constantly told we were talking Scotland down,
4:57:24 > 4:57:28we were scaremongering. I think all of us are owed an apology.
4:57:28 > 4:57:31APPLAUSE
4:57:31 > 4:57:33I'm going to go on to another question.
4:57:33 > 4:57:39Otherwise we will stick on the same topic and I've other questions here.
4:57:39 > 4:57:43But just to say, if you want to join us next week for Question Time,
4:57:43 > 4:57:44we will be in Chelmsford.
4:57:44 > 4:57:47Then we'll pause for Easter
4:57:47 > 4:57:50and we'll be in Ilford, east London, after Easter.
4:57:50 > 4:57:54So you can apply to our website, or you can call the number there.
4:57:54 > 4:57:57We'll give that all again at the end.
4:57:57 > 4:58:00Let me take this question from Laura Meach, please.
4:58:00 > 4:58:03With the majority of NHS Trusts in Scotland
4:58:03 > 4:58:07in financial difficulties, would the panel increase taxes
4:58:07 > 4:58:10to safeguard the future of the NHS in Scotland?
4:58:10 > 4:58:12That's very clear. It's true of the whole UK,
4:58:12 > 4:58:15that there are problems and financial difficulties everywhere.
4:58:15 > 4:58:19What would you do about it? Erm... Willie Rennie.
4:58:19 > 4:58:23I think there is a desperate need for proper investment in the NHS.
4:58:23 > 4:58:25There is no doubt about that.
4:58:25 > 4:58:29We need to make sure we pass on all the budget consequentials
4:58:29 > 4:58:32of the protected NHS budget within England.
4:58:32 > 4:58:36We need to make sure that happens, to make sure we deal with the real
4:58:36 > 4:58:38crisis we have in GP recruitment,
4:58:38 > 4:58:41mental health services that are often neglected
4:58:41 > 4:58:46need a proper boost and we also need to invest in social care.
4:58:46 > 4:58:50We have a commitment to increased taxes because, unlike John,
4:58:50 > 4:58:53who has been arguing for powers for 80 years
4:58:53 > 4:58:54and is now not going to use them,
4:58:54 > 4:58:58we are going to propose an increase in income tax for education,
4:58:58 > 4:59:03because John's government is butchering the education system.
4:59:03 > 4:59:05- He's cutting... - APPLAUSE
4:59:05 > 4:59:08He's cutting 152,000 places from our colleges.
4:59:08 > 4:59:11We are talking about the NHS, not about education.
4:59:11 > 4:59:14You have to stick to the agenda the audience creates here.
4:59:14 > 4:59:18- But the...- You can't just go off on a point that you want to talk about.
4:59:20 > 4:59:25But the point also, David, was about increasing taxes
4:59:25 > 4:59:29and I'm in favour of increasing taxes to invest in public services.
4:59:29 > 4:59:33- I think that's absolutely the right thing to do.- Including NHS?
4:59:33 > 4:59:36I've already set out what we want to do with the NHS,
4:59:36 > 4:59:38but what we are proposing specifically
4:59:38 > 4:59:41and this is why I deviated from your strict criteria,
4:59:41 > 4:59:45is because we are in favour of increasing investment in education
4:59:45 > 4:59:48because John's government's has butchered the education system.
4:59:48 > 4:59:51- Jenny Marra.- Laura, I think you are right to be concerned about
4:59:51 > 4:59:53NHS spending here in Scotland.
4:59:53 > 4:59:56We know that here in Dundee, NHS Tayside have
4:59:56 > 5:00:01got to make savings or cuts of £27 million over the next year
5:00:01 > 5:00:03and that's brutal.
5:00:03 > 5:00:05You will probably know as well as I do
5:00:05 > 5:00:08that health services here in Dundee are really stretched.
5:00:08 > 5:00:11We've got a GP surgery in Lochee that's on the brink of survival
5:00:11 > 5:00:13because they can't attract.
5:00:13 > 5:00:16Scottish Government is having real problems
5:00:16 > 5:00:19attracting GPs to work in our surgeries
5:00:19 > 5:00:21so there are some real problems.
5:00:21 > 5:00:24One of the reasons we are in so much deficit in the NHS
5:00:24 > 5:00:28is because of the SNP's reliance on agency nurses.
5:00:28 > 5:00:32There's more and more private nurses being called in to staff our NHS.
5:00:32 > 5:00:36That's something, that trend that really worries me.
5:00:36 > 5:00:39Scottish Labour Party is committed going into this election
5:00:39 > 5:00:41and I think, along with the Liberals,
5:00:41 > 5:00:44we are the only party committed to saying, actually,
5:00:44 > 5:00:48we think the people that can afford it should pay a little more
5:00:48 > 5:00:51because the cuts coming from George Osborne
5:00:51 > 5:00:55and from John Swinney... You know, the council cuts in Dundee...
5:00:55 > 5:00:58200 council workers are losing their jobs in this city
5:00:58 > 5:01:00because of these council cuts.
5:01:00 > 5:01:03So we are saying quite clearly that we'd put a penny on income tax
5:01:03 > 5:01:06and that people who can afford it should pay that little bit more
5:01:06 > 5:01:08to deliver the public services that we need.
5:01:08 > 5:01:11So you'd increase taxes for spending
5:01:11 > 5:01:14- on the NHS or for education? - We have said the health budget
5:01:14 > 5:01:17would be protected, completely, and, to be fair,
5:01:17 > 5:01:20the Scottish Government have done that as well,
5:01:20 > 5:01:23although I think there are other problems in the Health Service,
5:01:23 > 5:01:26but we are saying that money, to go back to the other question,
5:01:26 > 5:01:29should be invested in education and training
5:01:29 > 5:01:31- because our economy badly needs it. - So you would be happy
5:01:31 > 5:01:34to see Scotland have a different income tax rate
5:01:34 > 5:01:36- from the rest of the UK? - Yes, well, we've...
5:01:36 > 5:01:37You think you'd win votes on that?
5:01:37 > 5:01:39Well, we think we will.
5:01:39 > 5:01:42We think people recognise the problems across this country
5:01:42 > 5:01:44in public services and those who can afford it
5:01:44 > 5:01:46- are prepared to pay that little bit more.- Tim Stanley.
5:01:51 > 5:01:54I admire any politician who has the guts to say they are prepared to
5:01:54 > 5:01:57raise taxes a little bit to finance something, that's very admirable.
5:01:57 > 5:02:00I would vote for it as a short-term measure.
5:02:00 > 5:02:02In the long run, we have to wake up
5:02:02 > 5:02:05to a structural problem facing the NHS,
5:02:05 > 5:02:09which is that we as a population are getting older and
5:02:09 > 5:02:12a great deal of the NHS's problems in many ways
5:02:12 > 5:02:15are to do with failings in care for older people.
5:02:15 > 5:02:19The NHS is going to have to change.
5:02:19 > 5:02:21It will happen within a lifetime.
5:02:21 > 5:02:23Politicians will resist it because they know the principle
5:02:23 > 5:02:25behind the NHS is so popular,
5:02:25 > 5:02:28it's famously described as Britain's last remaining national religion,
5:02:28 > 5:02:29but something's got to change.
5:02:29 > 5:02:32It might be that governments encourage people
5:02:32 > 5:02:34to invest in old-age insurance,
5:02:34 > 5:02:36or that some sort of top-up system is introduced,
5:02:36 > 5:02:40so that people might pay extra for certain services.
5:02:40 > 5:02:44Either way, the idea that we can continue to supply such a monopoly,
5:02:44 > 5:02:46such a generous well-funded monopoly
5:02:46 > 5:02:50that provides the kind of care people expect
5:02:50 > 5:02:53on the model that we have right now of direct taxation,
5:02:53 > 5:02:55I fear that's not sustainable.
5:02:55 > 5:02:59In the long run, some party has got to build up the nerve
5:02:59 > 5:03:02- to take that on and change it.- Fine.
5:03:02 > 5:03:06John Swinney. APPLAUSE
5:03:06 > 5:03:09Is it the SNP that will have the nerve to do what Tim suggests?
5:03:09 > 5:03:11Let me say what the SNP is doing,
5:03:11 > 5:03:14and we have responsibility for these things
5:03:14 > 5:03:15and we take it seriously.
5:03:15 > 5:03:18The health budget in Scotland is now £13 billion,
5:03:18 > 5:03:22it's never been as high as that at any point in history in the past.
5:03:25 > 5:03:28The level of employment in the National Health Service in Scotland
5:03:28 > 5:03:31is higher than when the SNP Government came to office,
5:03:31 > 5:03:34so we've invested to create that larger staff pool.
5:03:34 > 5:03:38The choice I took in the budget, and it was my decision,
5:03:38 > 5:03:41was not to use the power available to me to increase taxation
5:03:41 > 5:03:42and the reason was not...
5:03:42 > 5:03:45Jenny says it's because people who can afford to pay it
5:03:45 > 5:03:49would have to pay more, it's people on £11,000.
5:03:49 > 5:03:53- It's not...- Hear me out.
5:03:53 > 5:03:57- John, that's not true.- People on £11,000 would have to pay more tax.
5:03:57 > 5:04:00I don't think that is fair to ask people on that level of pay...
5:04:00 > 5:04:04- That's simply not true.- ..to pay more money into public expenditure.
5:04:04 > 5:04:06That is not true, John.
5:04:06 > 5:04:12John... Because the tax thresholds have been raised as a result of
5:04:12 > 5:04:14the budget coming this year,
5:04:14 > 5:04:17it will mean that you would have to earn over £19,000
5:04:17 > 5:04:21to pay a single penny more in tax as a result of these measures
5:04:21 > 5:04:25and I think that's fair and reasonable.
5:04:25 > 5:04:27Don't call yourself progressive.
5:04:27 > 5:04:30People on that level of salary,
5:04:30 > 5:04:34£11,000, would have to pay more in taxation and
5:04:34 > 5:04:36I'm not prepared to do that.
5:04:36 > 5:04:39If they don't have a job as a result of your cuts,
5:04:39 > 5:04:43it doesn't matter because they won't be paying any tax anyway.
5:04:43 > 5:04:47There are plenty of people on that level of salary who will have jobs
5:04:47 > 5:04:51- and who would have to pay the tax. - Not if you carry on.- OK.
5:04:51 > 5:04:54- The key thing is to shift... - Briefly, John, if you would.
5:04:54 > 5:04:58..is to put investment in to shift the balance of care.
5:04:58 > 5:05:01We have put £250 million
5:05:01 > 5:05:03into integrating health and social care
5:05:03 > 5:05:05to bring the services together
5:05:05 > 5:05:09and shift the balance of care so people spend less time in hospital,
5:05:09 > 5:05:13more time supported at home, getting the care they require.
5:05:13 > 5:05:15That's the key reform we've undertaken.
5:05:15 > 5:05:17We're further ahead than any other part of the UK
5:05:17 > 5:05:19and our Health Service has been judged
5:05:19 > 5:05:21to be the leading Health Service in the UK
5:05:21 > 5:05:23effectively delivering health care services.
5:05:23 > 5:05:25Described by the Prime Minister David Cameron
5:05:25 > 5:05:27- as a litany of failure. - That's because...
5:05:27 > 5:05:29- Why did he say that?- That's because
5:05:29 > 5:05:32the staff in our National Health Service work phenomenally hard
5:05:32 > 5:05:35to deliver the care that people in our country depend on.
5:05:35 > 5:05:37What do you make of what David Cameron said
5:05:37 > 5:05:39at the Scottish Tory conference, a litany of failure?
5:05:39 > 5:05:41I thought it was an insult
5:05:41 > 5:05:44to the National Health Service staff that work in our hospitals.
5:05:44 > 5:05:46Ruth Davidson?
5:05:48 > 5:05:50The gentleman there said he didn't like
5:05:50 > 5:05:51"lies, damn lies and statistics".
5:05:51 > 5:05:55I'll only put in one statistic, it comes from the independent
5:05:55 > 5:05:57Scottish parliamentary information service.
5:05:57 > 5:06:00They say between 2010 and 2015,
5:06:00 > 5:06:04even though health spending in England went up by 7%,
5:06:04 > 5:06:07a proportion of that is passed on through Barnett consequentials,
5:06:07 > 5:06:10it only went up by 1% in Scotland.
5:06:10 > 5:06:16The SNP said they would pass on all of the money that comes from down
5:06:16 > 5:06:20- south, it would be passed on to the NHS and they didn't.- And we did.
5:06:20 > 5:06:23- They didn't. The IFS say they didn't.- And we did.
5:06:23 > 5:06:26- The independent health services... - Is all your politics tit for tat?!
5:06:26 > 5:06:28ALL TALK AT ONCE
5:06:28 > 5:06:30It is when that's blatant nonsense.
5:06:30 > 5:06:32Skimming... They've been skimming off the top
5:06:32 > 5:06:35and taking it from healthcare for years. That's not my words.
5:06:35 > 5:06:38That's the independent parliamentary information service.
5:06:38 > 5:06:41The rise in Scotland and England was 1% between 2011-2013,
5:06:41 > 5:06:441% each according to the Treasury figures.
5:06:44 > 5:06:46In terms of the budget that was passed on,
5:06:46 > 5:06:50it was a 7% rise in England, 1% rise in Scotland.
5:06:50 > 5:06:52We want every single penny passed on
5:06:52 > 5:06:55and we don't think low-paid workers should have to pay
5:06:55 > 5:06:58for the SNP skimming money off the top
5:06:58 > 5:07:02for populist measures like White Papers and referendums,
5:07:02 > 5:07:03it should all go on health.
5:07:03 > 5:07:08- Patrick Harvie.- There will be a very dangerous consequence
5:07:08 > 5:07:11if we think this problem,
5:07:11 > 5:07:13and there are serious long-term challenges within the NHS
5:07:13 > 5:07:15and the rest of our public services,
5:07:15 > 5:07:18if we think that can be solved by passing on Barnett consequentials
5:07:18 > 5:07:23simply by having the same spending pattern between departments
5:07:23 > 5:07:24as the UK Government.
5:07:24 > 5:07:27Because at the same time as we are attempting
5:07:27 > 5:07:30to do this integration of social care and health,
5:07:30 > 5:07:33which is the right thing to do, but it's challenging,
5:07:33 > 5:07:36particularly when people are under pressure and under resourced.
5:07:36 > 5:07:37At the same time,
5:07:37 > 5:07:40the local councils which deliver those social care services
5:07:40 > 5:07:42are having their budgets cut massively.
5:07:42 > 5:07:46I think that we cannot protect our public services,
5:07:46 > 5:07:47which we all of us depend on,
5:07:47 > 5:07:49unless we are willing to raise the revenue
5:07:49 > 5:07:51that's necessary to pay for them.
5:07:51 > 5:07:54- And I think...- Why did you vote against it in the budget?
5:07:54 > 5:07:56You had the chance to vote for an increase in taxation
5:07:56 > 5:07:57and you declined.
5:07:57 > 5:07:59All right, the person in the third row.
5:07:59 > 5:08:02Please let me answer that allegation.
5:08:02 > 5:08:06Only a couple of minutes left. Let's move on. Let's not have claim and counter claim.
5:08:06 > 5:08:08It's all very well banding about statistics,
5:08:08 > 5:08:10we want long-term reassurances
5:08:10 > 5:08:11that we are not going to be threatened
5:08:11 > 5:08:13with a privatised Health Service
5:08:13 > 5:08:16and danger of TTIP and things like that in the future.
5:08:16 > 5:08:19- Absolutely. - APPLAUSE
5:08:21 > 5:08:25You, sir, in the blue, you wanted to speak. Just here. Yes.
5:08:25 > 5:08:28Five minutes ago I heard a really interesting provocation
5:08:28 > 5:08:30from Tim Stanley about taking a strategic view of the NHS
5:08:30 > 5:08:33and I then listened to our same old politicians
5:08:33 > 5:08:35bickering about who is spending more money,
5:08:35 > 5:08:37putting more nurses out...
5:08:37 > 5:08:40APPLAUSE
5:08:40 > 5:08:43..and the inevitable obligatory pat on the head to
5:08:43 > 5:08:46"aren't the nurses wonderful?" which any of them will say.
5:08:46 > 5:08:49How about responding to Tim's provocation
5:08:49 > 5:08:51and give us your strategic view...?
5:08:51 > 5:08:52I'll respond to that if I may.
5:08:52 > 5:08:56Laura Meach, I want to come back to you who asked the question.
5:08:58 > 5:09:01You are saying the budgets are being protected.
5:09:01 > 5:09:03However, NHS Tayside, as you said Jenny,
5:09:03 > 5:09:05is £27 million in deficit this year.
5:09:05 > 5:09:07Do you want to see taxes go up?
5:09:07 > 5:09:12Not particularly. But, something has to be done.
5:09:12 > 5:09:17- Absolutely.- Patrick Harvie.- I was disappointed with Willie there,
5:09:17 > 5:09:19because the Liberal Democrats, the Greens
5:09:19 > 5:09:23and the Labour Party in the most recent Scottish budget
5:09:23 > 5:09:25all proposed ways of raising taxes more fairly.
5:09:25 > 5:09:28We proposed different ways of doing it
5:09:28 > 5:09:30and it's legitimate to have that debate
5:09:30 > 5:09:32about different ways of doing it.
5:09:32 > 5:09:35We think it can be done most appropriately at a local level
5:09:35 > 5:09:39because we are talking about local services nine times out of ten
5:09:39 > 5:09:41that are under the most pressure.
5:09:41 > 5:09:43If we want a provocation about,
5:09:43 > 5:09:46"Wouldn't it be great if those who can afford to pay more
5:09:46 > 5:09:49"get to buy extra services from the NHS?"
5:09:49 > 5:09:51I would reject that, absolutely.
5:09:51 > 5:09:54I don't think we can afford to surrender the principle
5:09:54 > 5:09:56that we are all of us collectively better off
5:09:56 > 5:09:59if we pay for our healthcare on that collective basis.
5:09:59 > 5:10:01Frankly, I can afford to pay a bit more tax,
5:10:01 > 5:10:03an MSP or an MP can afford to pay a bit more,
5:10:03 > 5:10:06the people who're sitting on property wealth
5:10:06 > 5:10:09that's even more unfairly distributed than income in Scotland,
5:10:09 > 5:10:11- can afford to pay a bit more tax... - Thank you.
5:10:11 > 5:10:14APPLAUSE
5:10:14 > 5:10:18One last point, the woman in the striped shirt. Yes.
5:10:18 > 5:10:20Is it not also important to point out
5:10:20 > 5:10:25that the World Health Organisation's said the UK no longer has an NHS,
5:10:25 > 5:10:27that by their definition it's been abolished?
5:10:27 > 5:10:30I think south of the border they may well be right.
5:10:30 > 5:10:34OK. I think we have to stop because our hour is up.
5:10:34 > 5:10:36Doesn't feel like it, does it?
5:10:36 > 5:10:39And with you lot, we could go on a long time!
5:10:39 > 5:10:41LAUGHTER
5:10:41 > 5:10:43No, thank you all very much indeed.
5:10:43 > 5:10:47Our hour is up. We are going to be in Chelmsford next week,
5:10:47 > 5:10:51we've got the Education Secretary, Nicky Morgan, for the Tories and
5:10:51 > 5:10:56the Shadow Defence Secretary, Emily Thornberry, for Labour.
5:10:56 > 5:10:58Then there's a pause and then on April 7th,
5:10:58 > 5:11:01we are going to be in Ilford in East London.
5:11:01 > 5:11:03So if you can come to the audience in Chelmsford or in Ilford,
5:11:03 > 5:11:07go to our website or call the number...
5:11:10 > 5:11:12If you're listening to 5 Live, as you know,
5:11:12 > 5:11:16this debate will go on into the night in Question Time Extra Time,
5:11:16 > 5:11:17but here in Dundee,
5:11:17 > 5:11:22my thanks to all six panellists who came here to take part
5:11:22 > 5:11:24and to all of you in our audience
5:11:24 > 5:11:26who played such a provocative role
5:11:26 > 5:11:29in countering the many assertions you heard made.
5:11:29 > 5:11:31I'm very grateful to you, thank you very much.
5:11:31 > 5:11:35From Dundee, until next Thursday, from Question Time, goodnight.