17/03/2016

0:00:02 > 0:00:04Tonight we're in Chelmsford, and this is Question Time.

0:00:11 > 0:00:13Good evening and welcome to you,

0:00:13 > 0:00:14whether you're watching or listening.

0:00:14 > 0:00:16On our panel tonight,

0:00:16 > 0:00:19the Conservative Education Secretary Nicky Morgan.

0:00:19 > 0:00:22Labour's Shadow Defence Secretary, Emily Thornberry.

0:00:22 > 0:00:26The SNP Trade and Industry spokesperson at Westminster,

0:00:26 > 0:00:28Tasmina Ahmed-Sheikh.

0:00:28 > 0:00:32Ukip's leader in the European Parliament, Roger Helmer.

0:00:32 > 0:00:35The director of the think-tank the Institute Of Economic Affairs,

0:00:35 > 0:00:37Mark Littlewood.

0:00:37 > 0:00:40APPLAUSE

0:00:49 > 0:00:51Thank you very much. Thank you very much.

0:00:51 > 0:00:53Don't forget you have, at your service at home,

0:00:53 > 0:00:57Facebook, text or Twitter, to comment on what's said here.

0:00:57 > 0:00:58There are the details on the screen.

0:00:58 > 0:01:02Let's have our first question from Graham Bartlett tonight, please.

0:01:02 > 0:01:04Why is this Government cutting corporation tax

0:01:04 > 0:01:07at the expense of the disabled?

0:01:07 > 0:01:09The result of yesterday's Budget.

0:01:09 > 0:01:11Nicky Morgan.

0:01:11 > 0:01:13Well, we aren't doing that.

0:01:13 > 0:01:15Let's push back on that immediately.

0:01:15 > 0:01:19Yesterday's Budget was about putting the next generation first.

0:01:19 > 0:01:23It was about continuing to repair the damage done to our economy

0:01:23 > 0:01:26by the Labour Party when they were in government.

0:01:26 > 0:01:29What we've found, in terms of corporation tax, for example,

0:01:29 > 0:01:32is that if you lower the rates, actually, you get more money in.

0:01:32 > 0:01:33And that's a good thing

0:01:33 > 0:01:35for all the things we want to spend our money on,

0:01:35 > 0:01:38like, in my case, obviously, schools and education. But...

0:01:38 > 0:01:41Sorry, can I just check one thing? You say we're not doing that.

0:01:41 > 0:01:45You do agree with Mr Bartlett you are both cutting corporation tax

0:01:45 > 0:01:47and making savings on the disabled?

0:01:47 > 0:01:50No. Because I agree about the corporation tax.

0:01:50 > 0:01:52But we are not making savings on the disabled,

0:01:52 > 0:01:55because we are, at the moment, consulting on making some changes

0:01:55 > 0:01:59to the way that Personal Independence Payments...

0:01:59 > 0:02:02What's the figure of £4.4 billion saving

0:02:02 > 0:02:03from January 2017 to do with it

0:02:03 > 0:02:05if it's not to do with making a saving?

0:02:05 > 0:02:07No, no. It's about less, but overall

0:02:07 > 0:02:10the amount of money we are spending on disability benefits

0:02:10 > 0:02:12actually rises throughout the Parliament.

0:02:12 > 0:02:15By the end of this Parliament, we will be spending £3 billion more

0:02:15 > 0:02:19on Personal Independence Payments than we were in 2010,

0:02:19 > 0:02:22or the equivalent benefit - Disability Living Allowance.

0:02:22 > 0:02:26We spend £50 billion on disability benefits in this country.

0:02:26 > 0:02:29That's more than we're spending on, for example, police and defence.

0:02:29 > 0:02:31It's more than the schools budget.

0:02:31 > 0:02:32Sorry, I don't want to stop you again,

0:02:32 > 0:02:34but the Institute For Fiscal Studies,

0:02:34 > 0:02:36who we know are sort of great gurus on this,

0:02:36 > 0:02:41say that 370,000 people could lose up to £3,500 a year

0:02:41 > 0:02:43as a result of these measures you're taking.

0:02:43 > 0:02:45Are you saying nobody's going to lose out?

0:02:45 > 0:02:46No. What we are saying is

0:02:46 > 0:02:50that this is about the way that people's needs are assessed

0:02:50 > 0:02:52and making sure that the benefit is targeted

0:02:52 > 0:02:53absolutely at the right people.

0:02:53 > 0:02:55Personal Independence Payment,

0:02:55 > 0:02:57I know as a constituency Member of Parliament,

0:02:57 > 0:03:00having constituents who claim it, who go through the system,

0:03:00 > 0:03:03is there to help people to live independently.

0:03:03 > 0:03:05It's about making sure the money we are spending -

0:03:05 > 0:03:08we are spending more, as I say, on disability benefits -

0:03:08 > 0:03:10is going to the right people to help them with the right needs.

0:03:10 > 0:03:12And I think, overall, you know,

0:03:12 > 0:03:15we want there to be control of the welfare budget,

0:03:15 > 0:03:18that's something we've made very clear in our manifesto.

0:03:18 > 0:03:20We also made very clear we're not going to balance the books

0:03:20 > 0:03:23on the back of the most vulnerable and the disabled.

0:03:23 > 0:03:25And we absolutely still hold to that promise.

0:03:25 > 0:03:27Mr Bartlett, does that answer your question? Has she got it right?

0:03:27 > 0:03:32No. They're targeting the disabled at the expense of the corporations,

0:03:32 > 0:03:34who are getting away with it.

0:03:34 > 0:03:35They should pay more money

0:03:35 > 0:03:37so we can have better facilities for the disabled.

0:03:37 > 0:03:39- But they will pay more money.- No.

0:03:41 > 0:03:42I'll come back to you, Nicky.

0:03:42 > 0:03:44Emily Thornberry.

0:03:44 > 0:03:46Well, you're right, Graham. Of course they are.

0:03:46 > 0:03:49They're targeting those who they think won't be able to fight back.

0:03:49 > 0:03:50They're going to change the rules

0:03:50 > 0:03:52so that if you need assistance in going to the loo,

0:03:52 > 0:03:54assistance in getting dressed,

0:03:54 > 0:03:55then they will look again

0:03:55 > 0:03:58at how much Personal Independence Payments you can get.

0:03:58 > 0:04:02And that's going to cost the disabled £67 a week.

0:04:02 > 0:04:03It is outrageous.

0:04:03 > 0:04:06And this idea that, "Oh, we're cutting corporation tax

0:04:06 > 0:04:08"in order to be able to gather in more money,"

0:04:08 > 0:04:10I mean, what kind of Alice In Wonderland world are we living in?

0:04:10 > 0:04:13You know, are we saying, oh, we're cutting corporation tax

0:04:13 > 0:04:15and so, therefore, people won't fiddle

0:04:15 > 0:04:17their corporation tax any more?

0:04:17 > 0:04:18Shouldn't we actually be making sure

0:04:18 > 0:04:21the corporations and the very rich pay their taxes

0:04:21 > 0:04:24and we make sure that we look after the most vulnerable in this society?

0:04:24 > 0:04:25This Budget...

0:04:29 > 0:04:31This Budget is about choices

0:04:31 > 0:04:33and, frankly, I think that George Osborne

0:04:33 > 0:04:35has shown his true colours here

0:04:35 > 0:04:37by picking on those who can't fight back.

0:04:37 > 0:04:43How much did you raise corporation tax by when you were in Government?

0:04:43 > 0:04:46- Do you remember?- No, I don't remember. I don't remember. But...

0:04:46 > 0:04:49- I don't think you did raise it, did you?- Yes, but they're cutting it.

0:04:49 > 0:04:50I mean, what are you saying?

0:04:50 > 0:04:52And at the moment, you know, what are we doing?

0:04:52 > 0:04:54We're actually cutting corporation tax down

0:04:54 > 0:04:57to the same rate as Google might be prepared to pay it?

0:04:57 > 0:04:59What kind of...? I mean, this is not right.

0:04:59 > 0:05:00All right. Mark Littlewood.

0:05:00 > 0:05:02Well, listen, I want lower, simpler taxes.

0:05:02 > 0:05:04I'm a low-tax kind of guy.

0:05:04 > 0:05:07I think that helps the economy, it helps employment,

0:05:07 > 0:05:08it helps economic growth.

0:05:08 > 0:05:11And ultimately, if you can find the sweet spot,

0:05:11 > 0:05:13it helps Government revenues as well.

0:05:13 > 0:05:15We have previously had taxes that are so high

0:05:15 > 0:05:18that you don't actually get as much revenue as you might off them.

0:05:18 > 0:05:20So I don't mind corporation tax going down.

0:05:20 > 0:05:22But I do mind this...

0:05:22 > 0:05:24Politicians of all stripes have got to work out

0:05:24 > 0:05:26how they're going to make savings.

0:05:26 > 0:05:30We are still, after six years of so-called austerity,

0:05:30 > 0:05:34having a Government that is living well beyond the means of taxpayers

0:05:34 > 0:05:37to the tune of tens of billions of pounds a year.

0:05:37 > 0:05:39Most independent experts believe that George Osborne

0:05:39 > 0:05:42only has a 50/50 chance, possibly worse,

0:05:42 > 0:05:44of balancing the books by 2020.

0:05:44 > 0:05:46So we've got to find some savings.

0:05:46 > 0:05:50But...what the Conservatives have extremely unhelpfully done

0:05:50 > 0:05:53is to ring-fence core constituencies,

0:05:53 > 0:05:55largely of Conservative voters -

0:05:55 > 0:05:58for example, affluent pensioners

0:05:58 > 0:06:00still receiving their winter fuel allowance.

0:06:00 > 0:06:04And if you ring-fence huge areas of Government spending,

0:06:04 > 0:06:07then the axe falls unfairly.

0:06:07 > 0:06:08And I would have thought

0:06:08 > 0:06:10about the last thing you should be looking to cut

0:06:10 > 0:06:12is assistance to the disabled.

0:06:12 > 0:06:14But if you've ring-fenced so many other things,

0:06:14 > 0:06:172% on defence, 0.7% on international aid,

0:06:17 > 0:06:20then you get these arbitrary cuts in spending.

0:06:20 > 0:06:22So let's get taxes down,

0:06:22 > 0:06:25that's the right way to boost our economy,

0:06:25 > 0:06:28but let's actually put all Government departments on the table

0:06:28 > 0:06:30for efficiencies in savings.

0:06:30 > 0:06:34That's the only way I think we will balance the books in 2020.

0:06:39 > 0:06:42Nicky Morgan, just pick up briefly on what Mark said, would you?

0:06:42 > 0:06:45That you've ring-fenced so many things

0:06:45 > 0:06:49you end up going for areas that perhaps you shouldn't go for.

0:06:49 > 0:06:51Well, we certainly have, obviously, set out protections,

0:06:51 > 0:06:55but I think they are areas which are very important. So...

0:06:55 > 0:06:57- Affluent pensioners? - ..2% defence spending,

0:06:57 > 0:07:010.7% on international aid,

0:07:01 > 0:07:02our health budget.

0:07:02 > 0:07:05Affluent, middle-class pensioners -

0:07:05 > 0:07:07they're protected and ring-fenced by your Government.

0:07:07 > 0:07:09- No.- But it's true.

0:07:09 > 0:07:12The Prime Minister has made a clear commitment to pensioners

0:07:12 > 0:07:16about benefits which they rely on hugely and are very important.

0:07:16 > 0:07:19Things like bus passes, for example, and Winter Fuel Payments.

0:07:19 > 0:07:22But I think this is completely the wrong argument to be having.

0:07:22 > 0:07:25The point is, actually, over the course of the last six years,

0:07:25 > 0:07:27we have brought things under control.

0:07:27 > 0:07:29We are much closer to living within our means.

0:07:29 > 0:07:32If you look at the Budget book, you can see we're much closer

0:07:32 > 0:07:34to spending what we are raising in taxes.

0:07:34 > 0:07:36We have got further to do,

0:07:36 > 0:07:38and the Chancellor has been honest about that.

0:07:38 > 0:07:40And we're dealing with the particular issue that arose.

0:07:40 > 0:07:42The person there in the fourth row.

0:07:42 > 0:07:46I'd like to know why there's two different rules -

0:07:46 > 0:07:48one for corporations, and one for ordinary people.

0:07:48 > 0:07:51And why the Conservatives are so happy

0:07:51 > 0:07:56to try and appease the corporations by cutting taxes,

0:07:56 > 0:07:59whereas individuals are being forced to pay their taxes,

0:07:59 > 0:08:01the disabled are being forced

0:08:01 > 0:08:04to reduce their standard of living,

0:08:04 > 0:08:08yet corporations, we're so happy for them to reduce it,

0:08:08 > 0:08:12when some companies are trying to avoid paying taxes altogether.

0:08:12 > 0:08:15All right. And the woman over there on the far right, yes.

0:08:15 > 0:08:18You said that you ring-fenced the spending on the healthcare,

0:08:18 > 0:08:21but the NHS is on its knees.

0:08:21 > 0:08:24It can't meet its demands. It doesn't need ring-fencing.

0:08:24 > 0:08:26It needs more money.

0:08:26 > 0:08:29By cutting corporate taxing and ring-fencing the NHS,

0:08:29 > 0:08:32it's sort of like saying that you appreciate Google

0:08:32 > 0:08:34more than you appreciate the NHS.

0:08:34 > 0:08:35So why don't you invest?

0:08:35 > 0:08:39And by cutting disability benefits, by cutting social services,

0:08:39 > 0:08:41all you're doing is bringing the NHS down to its knees.

0:08:41 > 0:08:43The NHS won't be around for another couple of years

0:08:43 > 0:08:46- if you continue to do this. - Nicky, I'll come back to you,

0:08:46 > 0:08:49but, Roger Helmer... Then I'll come back to you.

0:08:49 > 0:08:53Well, Nicky has said that this is a Budget for the next generation.

0:08:53 > 0:08:55And, of course, it's no such thing.

0:08:55 > 0:08:57It's a Budget for the next three months.

0:08:57 > 0:09:01Because George Osborne's job, and his boss' job,

0:09:01 > 0:09:04depend upon them winning the referendum

0:09:04 > 0:09:07and they are throwing everything, including the kitchen sink,

0:09:07 > 0:09:08at that project.

0:09:08 > 0:09:10Coming back to the specific question...

0:09:10 > 0:09:11Hang on, what is it in this Budget

0:09:11 > 0:09:14that will help win the referendum, in your view?

0:09:14 > 0:09:18Well, there are tax reductions for large numbers of smaller businesses,

0:09:18 > 0:09:21so there's quite a range of people there

0:09:21 > 0:09:23who will be helped by the Budget and...

0:09:23 > 0:09:27- And middle-income and richer people...- Yep.

0:09:27 > 0:09:29..who the Conservatives are hoping to keep on side.

0:09:29 > 0:09:33But the point I would like to make is that I agree with Mark

0:09:33 > 0:09:38that lower corporation tax is not about making gifts to companies,

0:09:38 > 0:09:41it's about making Britain an attractive place to invest,

0:09:41 > 0:09:44an attractive place to build factories,

0:09:44 > 0:09:45create jobs and all those things.

0:09:45 > 0:09:49Where I think George Osborne has got it dramatically wrong is,

0:09:49 > 0:09:51as the questioners have been suggesting,

0:09:51 > 0:09:54is to pick on the disabled.

0:09:54 > 0:09:55There are all sorts of groups in society

0:09:55 > 0:09:59you might want to look again at the benefits they get,

0:09:59 > 0:10:02but the disabled...?

0:10:02 > 0:10:05And whereas for a single disabled person

0:10:05 > 0:10:09the loss of £3,500 a year, for them, is an enormous amount of money,

0:10:09 > 0:10:14according to the statistics I've seen, over the next five years,

0:10:14 > 0:10:16the total saving for the Government

0:10:16 > 0:10:19is of the order of £4.5 billion.

0:10:19 > 0:10:22Well, if we leave the European Union after 23rd June,

0:10:22 > 0:10:26we'll get that amount of money back in three months.

0:10:26 > 0:10:27OK. Tasmina.

0:10:28 > 0:10:32George Osborne has failed on debt, on deficit, on growth,

0:10:32 > 0:10:34on trade and exports.

0:10:34 > 0:10:35He's failed on everything

0:10:35 > 0:10:38and he wants the disabled people of this country to pay for it

0:10:38 > 0:10:40and it is not on.

0:10:40 > 0:10:41Tory austerity...

0:10:41 > 0:10:43APPLAUSE

0:10:43 > 0:10:47Tory austerity - which isn't working - is a choice, not a necessity.

0:10:48 > 0:10:52Penalising the disabled people by having £4.4 billion of cuts

0:10:52 > 0:10:57on money they should be getting is a choice, not a necessity.

0:10:57 > 0:11:00And to say this is for the next generation is highly questionable.

0:11:00 > 0:11:03In fact, George Osborne mentioned the next generation, I think,

0:11:03 > 0:11:06at least 18 times in his speech yesterday.

0:11:06 > 0:11:08What has he done for the next generation?

0:11:08 > 0:11:11He doesn't want 16- and 17-year-olds to vote.

0:11:11 > 0:11:13He's cut student maintenance allowances.

0:11:13 > 0:11:15He's cut allowances for student nurses.

0:11:15 > 0:11:19He's cut allowances for 18- to 21-year-olds who are unemployed

0:11:19 > 0:11:21who need housing benefit.

0:11:21 > 0:11:24That is not somebody who's planning for the next generation,

0:11:24 > 0:11:26that's someone who's planning for himself.

0:11:26 > 0:11:29And the time has come to call time on this Chancellor,

0:11:29 > 0:11:33because the disabled people of this country cannot take any more.

0:11:33 > 0:11:37The Resolution Foundation, having looked at all the figures,

0:11:37 > 0:11:40have come to the conclusion, which is one with which I agree,

0:11:40 > 0:11:43the top 10% of households in this country

0:11:43 > 0:11:45will be 20 times better off

0:11:45 > 0:11:48as a result of yesterday's Budget.

0:11:48 > 0:11:51- Tasmina, do you...?- We have to look at ourselves as a country

0:11:51 > 0:11:53and think, is this where we want to go?

0:11:53 > 0:11:55Is this a reflection of ourselves?

0:11:55 > 0:11:58Why are we not looking after the people who need our help the most?

0:11:58 > 0:11:59Tasmina, in...

0:12:02 > 0:12:04The Government has a majority of 12.

0:12:04 > 0:12:07We hear today that 20 Conservative MPs

0:12:07 > 0:12:10have written to say that they're very concerned

0:12:10 > 0:12:12about the disability changes.

0:12:12 > 0:12:14Do you think that it'll get through,

0:12:14 > 0:12:18or do you think it will be rejected by the House of Commons?

0:12:18 > 0:12:21Because, presumably, the SNP will use its strength to vote against it.

0:12:21 > 0:12:23Absolutely, and without a doubt.

0:12:23 > 0:12:25And I'm very pleased to see

0:12:25 > 0:12:28that there are voices across the House of Commons and in Government,

0:12:28 > 0:12:30on the Government benches, who are voices of reason,

0:12:30 > 0:12:33to see that this is absolutely not the right way forward.

0:12:33 > 0:12:35The Government faces another difficulty

0:12:35 > 0:12:37and another defeat, potentially.

0:12:37 > 0:12:39Nicky Morgan, do you think the Chancellor will lose the vote?

0:12:39 > 0:12:42Well, first of all, we've got to finish the consultation

0:12:42 > 0:12:44and the conversations that we're having with MPs,

0:12:44 > 0:12:47but also with disability groups and others

0:12:47 > 0:12:50before we even bring any legislation forward.

0:12:50 > 0:12:53Can I just pick up the point that the lady in the audience made

0:12:53 > 0:12:57about the taxes for businesses and the taxes for individuals?

0:12:57 > 0:12:59Sorry, can I just come back to that other thing?

0:12:59 > 0:13:01Are you saying this is just for consultation,

0:13:01 > 0:13:03this wasn't an announcement on saving money?

0:13:03 > 0:13:04It was in the Budget speech.

0:13:04 > 0:13:07No, no, it wasn't in the Budget speech, actually.

0:13:07 > 0:13:09What are we talking about, then?

0:13:09 > 0:13:11Just something you were half-thinking about?

0:13:11 > 0:13:14No, no, there's been an independent review that has happened.

0:13:14 > 0:13:16Proposals have been put forward

0:13:16 > 0:13:18and we are continuing the conversation about this,

0:13:18 > 0:13:20to make sure, as I said in my original answer,

0:13:20 > 0:13:22that the Personal Independence Payment

0:13:22 > 0:13:24is targeted at the right people.

0:13:24 > 0:13:26- Is that how you see it? Not in the Budget?- No, I don't see it.

0:13:26 > 0:13:30I remember Cameron saying that, on Personal Independence plans,

0:13:30 > 0:13:33he said, "This is our measure and we will enhance and safeguard it."

0:13:33 > 0:13:35That's what he said before the general election,

0:13:35 > 0:13:38- and he has gone back on his word. - Hang on a second. But...

0:13:38 > 0:13:41- No, no, that is what he said before the election.- Yes, absolutely.

0:13:41 > 0:13:43The Prime Minister didn't deliver the Budget yesterday,

0:13:43 > 0:13:45the Chancellor did. This is a measure...

0:13:45 > 0:13:47Oh, they don't talk to each other?

0:13:47 > 0:13:51This is a measure that is still being discussed in Government.

0:13:51 > 0:13:55And, as I say, it's about making sure that the welfare spending...

0:13:55 > 0:13:57So he didn't say, "Look, George, I promised not to do anything

0:13:57 > 0:13:59"to personal independence plans.

0:13:59 > 0:14:01"In fact, I promised to enhance and safeguard it,

0:14:01 > 0:14:03"so please don't touch it"? He didn't tell them that?

0:14:03 > 0:14:05If the entire Budget's up for discussion,

0:14:05 > 0:14:07I'm very interested in having this discussion now,

0:14:07 > 0:14:10because that certainly wasn't how it was played.

0:14:10 > 0:14:12And indeed, Graham Ellis, one of your own members,

0:14:12 > 0:14:14who was on the executive of the disabled group

0:14:14 > 0:14:17in the Conservative Party, actually resigned as a result of that.

0:14:17 > 0:14:19There are serious issues surrounding this.

0:14:19 > 0:14:21He said he couldn't possibly fathom being a member of a party

0:14:21 > 0:14:24that was going to have such a terrible impact

0:14:24 > 0:14:26- on the disabled people.- That's why we're still discussing it.

0:14:26 > 0:14:28Disabled people in this country

0:14:28 > 0:14:30have committed suicide as a result of some of the cuts

0:14:30 > 0:14:33that have been brought forward by this Government.

0:14:33 > 0:14:35- It is unforgiveable. - The woman here in the front.

0:14:36 > 0:14:38The lady said about the suicide...

0:14:38 > 0:14:40With the disabled people,

0:14:40 > 0:14:42with them having their money cut,

0:14:42 > 0:14:44surely there will be more distress?

0:14:44 > 0:14:48Because people can't get anywhere, they get depressed even more,

0:14:48 > 0:14:50it'll cost them more,

0:14:50 > 0:14:52and then, as you say, they commit suicide.

0:14:52 > 0:14:55So, you know, they're making it worse for them.

0:14:55 > 0:14:58- People's mental health issues, absolutely.- Hold on, Tasmina.

0:14:58 > 0:14:59Just clarify this,

0:14:59 > 0:15:02and then we must just talk about the corporation-tax part of this.

0:15:02 > 0:15:06This £4.4 billion saving by 2021...

0:15:06 > 0:15:08on disability -

0:15:08 > 0:15:11you're saying that is not a policy? That just doesn't exist?

0:15:11 > 0:15:13It's a fantasy?

0:15:13 > 0:15:15No, no, it is something that has been put forward.

0:15:15 > 0:15:18There has been a review, there has been a suggestion.

0:15:18 > 0:15:20We are not ready to bring the legislation forward.

0:15:20 > 0:15:22Can I just ask you, then, how does it square

0:15:22 > 0:15:25with what the Prime Minister said before the last election?

0:15:25 > 0:15:27"We haven't created this to undermine it.

0:15:27 > 0:15:29"We want to enhance and safeguard it.

0:15:29 > 0:15:31"The most disabled should always be protected."

0:15:31 > 0:15:33Well, that's exactly what I'm saying.

0:15:33 > 0:15:35There's been a suggestion

0:15:35 > 0:15:39of a change in the way the personal independence needs are assessed.

0:15:39 > 0:15:42And that's something we all continue to discuss.

0:15:42 > 0:15:44So is it all up for debate? Can we argue other things, too?

0:15:44 > 0:15:46Are there other things that...?

0:15:46 > 0:15:48I'm sure you'll argue lots of things, Emily.

0:15:48 > 0:15:50The Budget is merely a suggestion, is it?

0:15:50 > 0:15:51Can I just answer the question?

0:15:51 > 0:15:53Hold on. All right. One at a time.

0:15:53 > 0:15:56Corporation tax and personal tax - I think this is really important.

0:15:56 > 0:15:58I do think that if you bring down taxes on companies -

0:15:58 > 0:16:01we want them to set up and we want them to invest in this country,

0:16:01 > 0:16:02we want them to employ people.

0:16:02 > 0:16:04But I should also just point out

0:16:04 > 0:16:06that yesterday the Chancellor also said

0:16:06 > 0:16:08that the income-tax personal allowance

0:16:08 > 0:16:11is going to go up again in April, and it will go up again next year.

0:16:11 > 0:16:1431 million people are going to be paying less tax -

0:16:14 > 0:16:18individuals, as a result of changes introduced under the last government

0:16:18 > 0:16:19and in the current government.

0:16:19 > 0:16:22We're also introducing the National Living Wage,

0:16:22 > 0:16:24so that people's wages will be going up, too.

0:16:24 > 0:16:27So to say that we are somehow ignoring individuals

0:16:27 > 0:16:29and focusing on business is not right.

0:16:29 > 0:16:32But, of course, we need people to come to this country to invest,

0:16:32 > 0:16:35because they're the ones that are going to employ people.

0:16:35 > 0:16:39What about the employment support allowance cut by £30 per week?

0:16:39 > 0:16:41- What about that? - Can we just clarify one thing?

0:16:41 > 0:16:43Because it does sound, from what you're saying -

0:16:43 > 0:16:46I don't know whether I'm misinterpreting this, Nicky...

0:16:46 > 0:16:49You've got 20 Conservative MPs opposed to this policy,

0:16:49 > 0:16:50written to the Chancellor -

0:16:50 > 0:16:55it sounds as if you may be saying that this £4.4 billion saving

0:16:55 > 0:16:57isn't actually now going to happen.

0:16:57 > 0:17:00On reflection, the opposition to it is so great

0:17:00 > 0:17:02you may have to reconsider.

0:17:02 > 0:17:05Wouldn't the Chancellor have even more difficulty balancing the books?

0:17:05 > 0:17:07Then let me just hear the answer to the question.

0:17:07 > 0:17:10Well, we are absolutely still engaged in a discussion on that

0:17:10 > 0:17:12with both Members of Parliament,

0:17:12 > 0:17:15as I say, with disability groups and campaigners, very much.

0:17:15 > 0:17:19That's political speak for, "We aren't going to do it."

0:17:19 > 0:17:20This is clearly an issue about...

0:17:20 > 0:17:23This is another £4.4 billion that has to be found from somewhere else.

0:17:23 > 0:17:25Hang on a second. People can't have it both ways.

0:17:25 > 0:17:28They can't, on the one hand say, "You can't make this change,"

0:17:28 > 0:17:29and then say, "You're not going to."

0:17:29 > 0:17:32- That's not what we said.- We have a track record, as a government...

0:17:32 > 0:17:35Tasmina, you must let her just finish her sentences. Like I must!

0:17:35 > 0:17:38We have a track record, as a government, of making savings.

0:17:38 > 0:17:41They're difficult decisions to make, as ministers,

0:17:41 > 0:17:42but they are the right thing to do

0:17:42 > 0:17:44for exactly the reason, when we stated this discussion,

0:17:44 > 0:17:47that we want to live within our means as a government.

0:17:47 > 0:17:49That's what we ask people to do in their lives.

0:17:49 > 0:17:52- It's what we should do as a government.- The woman in pink there.

0:17:52 > 0:17:54Yes. If we've decided to cut corporation tax

0:17:54 > 0:17:59to make the UK an interesting place and a good place to invest in,

0:17:59 > 0:18:01hasn't David Cameron shot himself in the foot

0:18:01 > 0:18:03by actually bringing along an EU referendum

0:18:03 > 0:18:06where, actually, we could be outside Europe now

0:18:06 > 0:18:08and less attractive to business?

0:18:08 > 0:18:09Emily Thornberry, can you answer that?

0:18:09 > 0:18:12I mean, I agree with you. Of course I do. But, you know, I...

0:18:12 > 0:18:15You mean you agree with her that cutting corporation tax

0:18:15 > 0:18:17is a good idea to encourage business? That's what's she said.

0:18:17 > 0:18:20No, what she said was, if we're going to cut corporation tax

0:18:20 > 0:18:22in order to make the UK more attractive,

0:18:22 > 0:18:24then surely an even bigger threat is leaving the EU?

0:18:24 > 0:18:25And I agree with that.

0:18:25 > 0:18:28I think that leaving the EU is a threat to inward investment,

0:18:28 > 0:18:30and at a time when we're not getting

0:18:30 > 0:18:32enough inward investment into this country -

0:18:32 > 0:18:34is one of the many problems that we have.

0:18:34 > 0:18:39You know, the borrowing has gone up by 35 billion since November.

0:18:39 > 0:18:41You know, the Chancellor was saying one sum

0:18:41 > 0:18:44and then a few months later it's £35 billion more.

0:18:44 > 0:18:46And it seems like we've got another £4 billion to add on top,

0:18:46 > 0:18:49given the U-turn we've heard tonight.

0:18:49 > 0:18:52But we have a Budget that doesn't actually address the real issues.

0:18:52 > 0:18:54The real issues are people's wages are not going up

0:18:54 > 0:18:56at the same rate as prices,

0:18:56 > 0:19:00we have a housing crisis and we're not getting enough houses built,

0:19:00 > 0:19:02we're not getting enough investment into our country.

0:19:02 > 0:19:04You know, our growth is slowing down,

0:19:04 > 0:19:07our tax burden, as a whole, is going up,

0:19:07 > 0:19:09and very rich people and big businesses

0:19:09 > 0:19:10are not paying their taxes.

0:19:10 > 0:19:12And what would Labour do about all this?

0:19:12 > 0:19:15The first thing... I mean, I can talk all night

0:19:15 > 0:19:17about what we would do instead. So, let me not.

0:19:17 > 0:19:20- One thing we would do...- On the issues that the Chancellor...

0:19:20 > 0:19:22You wouldn't have cut taxes?

0:19:22 > 0:19:25One of the things that I would do is I would invest in homes.

0:19:25 > 0:19:28- I would invest in more houses.- We are.

0:19:28 > 0:19:31Nicky's going to tell you that's what she's going to do.

0:19:31 > 0:19:33If we were to be doing something in order to save money later,

0:19:33 > 0:19:36how about building some homes for the younger generation?

0:19:36 > 0:19:40Where are our kids going to live if we don't build them homes?

0:19:40 > 0:19:42And if we want to cut the budget,

0:19:42 > 0:19:45if you want to cut the amount of money we pay out on benefits,

0:19:45 > 0:19:48how about building some homes so that rents are no longer so high

0:19:48 > 0:19:51so we don't have to pay out so much money in housing benefit?

0:19:51 > 0:19:54- Let's address the corporation tax. - Let's stick with corporation tax.

0:19:54 > 0:19:57The big question I would have for George Osborne, if he were here...

0:19:57 > 0:19:59He's not in the audience anywhere, is he? No.

0:19:59 > 0:20:03What is the point of, on the one hand saying,

0:20:03 > 0:20:05"We are going to be really decisive

0:20:05 > 0:20:07"and we are going to lower corporation tax,"

0:20:07 > 0:20:09and on the other hand say,

0:20:09 > 0:20:13"Yes, but we're withdrawing an awful lot of tax allowances and so on,

0:20:13 > 0:20:17"so that, in effect, you drive them up again"?

0:20:17 > 0:20:20And I think that's a rather curious situation.

0:20:20 > 0:20:23It's not my job to come to the defence of George Osborne,

0:20:23 > 0:20:26but I understand that he has at least made some moves

0:20:26 > 0:20:29to prevent large companies from exporting tax.

0:20:29 > 0:20:32And that is absolutely right and he should have done it long ago.

0:20:32 > 0:20:35Just stick with tax, Mark, and then we'll move on.

0:20:35 > 0:20:36On corporation tax, do you agree with Roger

0:20:36 > 0:20:39that he's given with one hand and taken away with the other?

0:20:39 > 0:20:40He has somewhat, yes.

0:20:40 > 0:20:44Because his new target is to reduce corporation tax to 17%,

0:20:44 > 0:20:47but to make it harder to offset your previous losses

0:20:47 > 0:20:48against your current profits.

0:20:48 > 0:20:50So that's the allowance he's got rid of.

0:20:50 > 0:20:53I can understand why people get furious about corporation tax,

0:20:53 > 0:20:55because I can see, on the face of it,

0:20:55 > 0:20:57that it looks like there's a big cheat going on.

0:20:57 > 0:20:59But we're going to have to modernise our tax system.

0:20:59 > 0:21:02This was a tax that was brought in in the 1930s -

0:21:02 > 0:21:04a much simpler time.

0:21:04 > 0:21:06When you are now dealing with companies

0:21:06 > 0:21:09that have an algorithm in Los Angeles,

0:21:09 > 0:21:11their website hosted in Holland,

0:21:11 > 0:21:15the intellectual property registered in Singapore,

0:21:15 > 0:21:17it's very difficult to work out precisely

0:21:17 > 0:21:19where the economic activity is taking place.

0:21:19 > 0:21:20Back in simpler times

0:21:20 > 0:21:23when we just went to the butcher, the baker and the candlestick maker

0:21:23 > 0:21:24on the high street,

0:21:24 > 0:21:27it was much easier to work out where economic activity was taking place.

0:21:27 > 0:21:29Do you agree with the woman in pink when she says

0:21:29 > 0:21:33we need to get corporation tax down to get business into Britain?

0:21:33 > 0:21:36Yeah, I would abolish corporation tax altogether.

0:21:36 > 0:21:39I want to encourage all companies to come here, invest,

0:21:39 > 0:21:41employ people who, by the way,

0:21:41 > 0:21:45then pay income tax and VAT when they go out to the shops.

0:21:45 > 0:21:48And the problem is, I think, if you don't abolish it,

0:21:48 > 0:21:50these huge internet multinational companies

0:21:50 > 0:21:53have different IP registered all over the place,

0:21:53 > 0:21:54perfectly rationally, intelligently,

0:21:54 > 0:21:56and it's the little guy with the little corner shop

0:21:56 > 0:21:58who actually gets penalised.

0:21:58 > 0:22:00It's the smaller companies that get penalised.

0:22:00 > 0:22:02Isn't that another argument for the EU?

0:22:02 > 0:22:03I mean, isn't it about time

0:22:03 > 0:22:05the countries of the EU actually stuck together

0:22:05 > 0:22:08and said to these large companies, "You must pay your taxes,

0:22:08 > 0:22:11"and we, the EU, will not let you get away

0:22:11 > 0:22:13"with not paying your taxes any more"?

0:22:13 > 0:22:15I would prefer our taxes to be set

0:22:15 > 0:22:18by our democratically elected parliament

0:22:18 > 0:22:19rather than the European Commission.

0:22:19 > 0:22:21But if we were able to club together

0:22:21 > 0:22:23and make sure that they did it properly?

0:22:23 > 0:22:26The European Union has proved itself completely incapable

0:22:26 > 0:22:28of dealing with issues like that.

0:22:28 > 0:22:29It is fantasy to think that they help.

0:22:29 > 0:22:32OK, we'll come to the European Union maybe in a moment.

0:22:32 > 0:22:34It will be no surprise. Yes, you.

0:22:34 > 0:22:37Is cutting corporation tax a last-ditch attempt

0:22:37 > 0:22:40to keep the big businesses, like HSBC, in our country,

0:22:40 > 0:22:43because we're scared that we will actually leave the EU?

0:22:43 > 0:22:46- Is that what you think it is?- Yes.

0:22:46 > 0:22:48I'm asking, is it?

0:22:48 > 0:22:50It's that I thought it could well be.

0:22:50 > 0:22:53Are they trying to appease companies like HSBC

0:22:53 > 0:22:56to keep their big, huge headquarters here,

0:22:56 > 0:22:59because they're worried they'll actually leave if we leave the EU?

0:22:59 > 0:23:01Nicky Morgan, briefly, is that the argument?

0:23:01 > 0:23:04No, I think it is about making sure that companies know

0:23:04 > 0:23:07that Britain is a good place for them to invest and to employ.

0:23:07 > 0:23:09I mean, companies like HSBC and others,

0:23:09 > 0:23:12they employ a lot of people in this country

0:23:12 > 0:23:15who, as Mark says, then pay their personal taxes.

0:23:15 > 0:23:18Emily and I are not going to agree on very much tonight,

0:23:18 > 0:23:20but I think the one thing we can agree on

0:23:20 > 0:23:23is that, actually, we should stay in a reformed EU.

0:23:23 > 0:23:25Just to answer the lady's question...

0:23:25 > 0:23:27There isn't a reformed EU to stay in!

0:23:27 > 0:23:29Which reformed EU?

0:23:29 > 0:23:32Nicky, please. Which reformed EU? There is no reformed EU.

0:23:32 > 0:23:33There is a reformed EU.

0:23:33 > 0:23:36I'm not a seer about the way this programme will go,

0:23:36 > 0:23:39but there just might be a question on Europe.

0:23:39 > 0:23:44So let's take another aspect to headline from the Budget.

0:23:44 > 0:23:47But before I do, let me just say about Question Time's plans.

0:23:47 > 0:23:49We're off the air for Easter.

0:23:49 > 0:23:53If you want to come to Question Time,

0:23:53 > 0:23:56we're in Ilford, curiously -

0:23:56 > 0:23:58not far from Chelmsford -

0:23:58 > 0:23:59on April 7th.

0:23:59 > 0:24:01Ilford. We call it East London,

0:24:01 > 0:24:03to separate it from Chelmsford, Essex.

0:24:03 > 0:24:06And then in Doncaster the week after that.

0:24:06 > 0:24:09That's April 7th and then 14th April 14th.

0:24:09 > 0:24:11And you can apply. The details are on the screen now,

0:24:11 > 0:24:13the television and the website.

0:24:13 > 0:24:15But I will give them at the end in more detail.

0:24:15 > 0:24:18Just so you know, cos you'll be extremely welcome.

0:24:18 > 0:24:21Jennie Stanton, you're very welcome, too. Can we have your question?

0:24:21 > 0:24:26The sugar tax will add about 25p per bottle of soft drink.

0:24:26 > 0:24:30Will that really deter parents from buying it?

0:24:30 > 0:24:31Mark Littlewood.

0:24:31 > 0:24:34This is a disastrous, pernicious,

0:24:34 > 0:24:36unfair, regressive tax

0:24:36 > 0:24:39that will do absolutely nothing to help public health.

0:24:39 > 0:24:41Absolutely nothing.

0:24:41 > 0:24:44The economic evidence is pretty clear on this point.

0:24:44 > 0:24:46Wherever these things have been tried,

0:24:46 > 0:24:49whether it's been on sugar or sugary drinks,

0:24:49 > 0:24:52in, say, Mexico, when it's been on a fat tax,

0:24:52 > 0:24:56tried in Denmark, it actually gets you virtually zero of the way

0:24:56 > 0:24:58towards improving public health.

0:24:58 > 0:25:02- Why?- Well, because for example, people will trade down brands.

0:25:02 > 0:25:07So rather than buying perhaps a premium brand of cola,

0:25:07 > 0:25:09you will simply switch to buying the local brand

0:25:09 > 0:25:11or a less-recognised brand,

0:25:11 > 0:25:13quite possibly consuming still more sugar.

0:25:13 > 0:25:16So people switch their shopping habits.

0:25:16 > 0:25:20And what really appalled me about seeing this in the Budget

0:25:20 > 0:25:22was politicians on both sides of the House,

0:25:22 > 0:25:26Conservative and Labour, sort of congratulating themselves

0:25:26 > 0:25:29that they have brought in a new taxation

0:25:29 > 0:25:30which is going to hit you in the pocket.

0:25:30 > 0:25:33It's all very well for Nicky to say your income tax is going down,

0:25:33 > 0:25:36but your shopping bill is going to go up

0:25:36 > 0:25:39on the grounds that this will help public health. It won't.

0:25:39 > 0:25:40And I was particularly upset

0:25:40 > 0:25:43to see the Labour Party warmly applauding it.

0:25:43 > 0:25:48This is a tax that is regressive and hits the poorest hardest.

0:25:48 > 0:25:51To actually see the Labour opposition

0:25:51 > 0:25:53almost warmly applauding George Osborne for bringing it in

0:25:53 > 0:25:55I thought was absolutely horrific.

0:25:55 > 0:25:57So this is a bad tax, it's going to the poor,

0:25:57 > 0:26:00and it will do nothing to improve the health of our children

0:26:00 > 0:26:02or, indeed, the adult population.

0:26:02 > 0:26:05APPLAUSE

0:26:05 > 0:26:06You, sir.

0:26:06 > 0:26:10So what can be done to reduce the cost of healthy food?

0:26:11 > 0:26:15APPLAUSE

0:26:15 > 0:26:18Well, everybody always looks at the food side of it.

0:26:18 > 0:26:21I think the real problem is exercise, actually.

0:26:21 > 0:26:24Calories, generally going down.

0:26:24 > 0:26:28Sugar consumption is generally going down year-on-year in Britain.

0:26:28 > 0:26:30If there is an obesity epidemic,

0:26:30 > 0:26:33it is not being caused by sugar consumption going up at all.

0:26:33 > 0:26:35It's caused by us having a sedentary lifestyle.

0:26:35 > 0:26:37So don't play football on your PlayStation,

0:26:37 > 0:26:39go and play it in the park, is what we've got to tell our kids.

0:26:39 > 0:26:42Man in the yellow shirt, yes. Go on.

0:26:42 > 0:26:44I have to disagree with the man who just spoke,

0:26:44 > 0:26:47because we tax alcoholic drinks because they are unhealthy.

0:26:47 > 0:26:51Why not tax sugary drinks? Because they're definitely unhealthy.

0:26:51 > 0:26:52Tasmina.

0:26:52 > 0:26:55George Osborne would have absolutely loved

0:26:55 > 0:26:59all of the headlines about this Budget to be about the sugar tax,

0:26:59 > 0:27:02but they weren't, and events took over from it.

0:27:02 > 0:27:05However, I would say, in terms of public health,

0:27:05 > 0:27:09whilst I don't believe it will stop people from drinking sugary drinks,

0:27:09 > 0:27:11not least children,

0:27:11 > 0:27:13it will raise awareness, in terms of health issues,

0:27:13 > 0:27:16which is an important effect of it.

0:27:16 > 0:27:20We need to do something about obesity in this country.

0:27:20 > 0:27:22Is this going to be the answer? Absolutely not.

0:27:22 > 0:27:25Can it be part of an answer? Yes, it can,

0:27:25 > 0:27:28in terms of how we encourage the people of this country

0:27:28 > 0:27:30to try and eat better.

0:27:30 > 0:27:33And one of the ways we are doing that in Scotland

0:27:33 > 0:27:34is by free school meals,

0:27:34 > 0:27:37which we have for primary-one-to-three children,

0:27:37 > 0:27:40where they're guaranteed a healthy meal every single day.

0:27:40 > 0:27:42- And that's now being extended in the next year.- So...

0:27:42 > 0:27:45Please, it's worthwhile listening. I'm talking about children.

0:27:45 > 0:27:47We're actually talking about the sugar tax, soft drinks,

0:27:47 > 0:27:51not about Scotland's policy on meals for children.

0:27:51 > 0:27:54Why not raise awareness of it?

0:27:54 > 0:27:56Don't raise a tax to raise awareness of it,

0:27:56 > 0:27:57just raise awareness of it.

0:27:57 > 0:28:00It's a bizarre way to set your tax policy.

0:28:00 > 0:28:03But I will finish my answer, because it's important.

0:28:03 > 0:28:05We were talking about health in the main.

0:28:05 > 0:28:10And in the main, Nicola Sturgeon has also confirmed that,

0:28:10 > 0:28:12in the next parliament, we'll be also ensuring

0:28:12 > 0:28:15that children that go to nursery get a meal a day.

0:28:15 > 0:28:16And what we need to be looking...

0:28:16 > 0:28:19I am sorry, look, it's all very well to sit here

0:28:19 > 0:28:22and talk about Scottish policy on children.

0:28:22 > 0:28:25What is your answer to Jennie Stanton's question?

0:28:25 > 0:28:26Is it going to make a difference?

0:28:26 > 0:28:29I'm saying it will, in terms of raising awareness.

0:28:29 > 0:28:31That was the first part of my answer.

0:28:31 > 0:28:33Well, then, that's fine. That's all we need.

0:28:33 > 0:28:34Roger Helmer.

0:28:34 > 0:28:37I'm just amazed by Tasmina.

0:28:37 > 0:28:40- She is prepared...- It has to be part of a health initiative.

0:28:40 > 0:28:42Hang on, the chair has just given...

0:28:42 > 0:28:46You are prepared to apply a regressive tax

0:28:46 > 0:28:51which affects lower-income, poorer people disproportionately,

0:28:51 > 0:28:53merely so that you can have the satisfaction of raising awareness.

0:28:53 > 0:28:56I think that is tragic, coming from a left-wing...

0:28:56 > 0:28:57That's not what I said at all.

0:28:57 > 0:28:59Well, that's exactly what you said.

0:28:59 > 0:29:01Word for word, that is what you said.

0:29:01 > 0:29:03Nicky Morgan, you come to the defence of it.

0:29:03 > 0:29:05I do think it's the right thing to do.

0:29:05 > 0:29:08And I have to say, I've had my mind converted on that,

0:29:08 > 0:29:10because I think behaviour does need to change,

0:29:10 > 0:29:14and I think that there is an issue about wider health and exercise

0:29:14 > 0:29:16and everything else.

0:29:16 > 0:29:18- But when I looked at the figures... - What converted you?

0:29:18 > 0:29:20Was it the Prime Minister changed his mind,

0:29:20 > 0:29:23- you thought you'd better stay alongside him?- Absolutely!

0:29:27 > 0:29:29It hasn't worked in other countries.

0:29:29 > 0:29:31Of course I always support my Prime Minister. Of course I do. But...

0:29:31 > 0:29:34- Whichever way he goes, you'll be with him?- No, no, no.

0:29:34 > 0:29:38Look, we debated this, I think, when I was on a previous Question Time.

0:29:38 > 0:29:40It was one of the warm-up questions.

0:29:40 > 0:29:42But, you know, the biggest single source of sugar intake

0:29:42 > 0:29:45in young people's diets is sugary drinks.

0:29:45 > 0:29:47And when you've got one in ten young people

0:29:47 > 0:29:48starting primary school obese,

0:29:48 > 0:29:51and it rises to two in ten leaving primary school obese,

0:29:51 > 0:29:53there is clearly an issue in this country.

0:29:53 > 0:29:57So what about latte macchiatos, and all those things I don't understand,

0:29:57 > 0:29:58that are absolutely full of sugar?

0:29:58 > 0:30:01The medical evidence is that, actually,

0:30:01 > 0:30:03in spite of the sugar in those sort of drinks,

0:30:03 > 0:30:06actually, the milk and presumably the calcium and everything else

0:30:06 > 0:30:08is still beneficial to people.

0:30:08 > 0:30:11- But let me say to you one other thing.- Not if it's full of sugar.

0:30:11 > 0:30:14Well, look, Roger, there is medical evidence.

0:30:14 > 0:30:16And that's how this policy has been developed.

0:30:16 > 0:30:18Oh, come on. That's an excuse.

0:30:18 > 0:30:21- Hang on.- Why have you frozen cider duty and beer duty,

0:30:21 > 0:30:24which are considerably worse for you than a cup of lemonade?

0:30:24 > 0:30:25So you're going to increase...

0:30:25 > 0:30:27We're talking about young people's health.

0:30:27 > 0:30:30They're not drinking cider and beer, one assumes.

0:30:30 > 0:30:31So you want an 18-year-old to switch

0:30:31 > 0:30:34from drinking Coca-Cola and start drinking cider?

0:30:34 > 0:30:37That's the economic incentive you've set up in your Budget. Ridiculous.

0:30:37 > 0:30:39The other thing...

0:30:39 > 0:30:40One at a time. One at a time.

0:30:40 > 0:30:43The other thing is the drinks industry has got two years

0:30:43 > 0:30:47in which to reduce the sugar content of its drinks,

0:30:47 > 0:30:49in which case there won't be a tax on those drinks.

0:30:49 > 0:30:51And we've seen that some companies -

0:30:51 > 0:30:53because we're on the BBC, I won't mention names -

0:30:53 > 0:30:55but there are some companies that have already done that

0:30:55 > 0:30:57and that behaviour has changed.

0:30:57 > 0:30:59And, therefore, those drinks are healthier for young people.

0:30:59 > 0:31:01It is perfectly possible to do it.

0:31:01 > 0:31:04So what will George do for his £520 million

0:31:04 > 0:31:06if, in fact, people are going to change their habits

0:31:06 > 0:31:08and stop consuming sweet drinks?

0:31:08 > 0:31:10Well, that's something that, obviously,

0:31:10 > 0:31:12we will look at as part of the Government.

0:31:12 > 0:31:14- Another part of the Budget that's a suggestion.- No.

0:31:14 > 0:31:17The woman up there. And then I'll come to you, Emily.

0:31:17 > 0:31:19This tax might never actually be paid

0:31:19 > 0:31:22if recipes are changed and sugar is dropped.

0:31:22 > 0:31:25So that money should be going into sports in primary schools -

0:31:25 > 0:31:30As Mark said, really, exercise is key to reducing obesity.

0:31:30 > 0:31:32So if that tax isn't raised,

0:31:32 > 0:31:34then the sport in school won't increase.

0:31:34 > 0:31:36And that will be three years in the future, so what happens now?

0:31:36 > 0:31:38Emily Thornberry.

0:31:38 > 0:31:40I mean, I think, again, it just shows, I think,

0:31:40 > 0:31:42that this Government is just making it up as it goes along.

0:31:42 > 0:31:45I mean, in 2012, after the Olympics,

0:31:45 > 0:31:47there was supposed to be the sports premium.

0:31:47 > 0:31:50And yet, at that stage, the Government cut back

0:31:50 > 0:31:53on the two hours a week that young people were supposed to spend

0:31:53 > 0:31:54doing physical education.

0:31:54 > 0:31:57And now we're saying, well, we're going to have a sugar tax

0:31:57 > 0:32:01and the money from that sugar tax is now going to pay for PE in schools.

0:32:01 > 0:32:06I mean, I support a sugar tax as part of an overall strategy,

0:32:06 > 0:32:07as part of an obesity strategy.

0:32:07 > 0:32:09The government keeps talking about

0:32:09 > 0:32:11being about to have an obesity strategy.

0:32:11 > 0:32:13He's put it off, I think, five times.

0:32:13 > 0:32:16The Prime Minister is supposed to be the person who's leading on it.

0:32:16 > 0:32:18We still await this obesity strategy.

0:32:18 > 0:32:22It does seem to me that part of it has to be getting kids more active.

0:32:22 > 0:32:26The difficulty is, we are in a changing society.

0:32:26 > 0:32:27And to be quite honest,

0:32:27 > 0:32:30we all know that at home, kids are tending not to go out as much,

0:32:30 > 0:32:33they tend to be in front of computers much more,

0:32:33 > 0:32:36which makes the job at school being that much more important

0:32:36 > 0:32:39to make sure that kids get active and actually enjoy being active.

0:32:39 > 0:32:42And that's a really important part of it.

0:32:42 > 0:32:44But as part of the sugar tax, we also, I think,

0:32:44 > 0:32:46have to look at advertising.

0:32:46 > 0:32:48I think we have to look at the fact that you can have cartoons,

0:32:48 > 0:32:52you can have personalities, endorsing, you know, sugary drinks.

0:32:52 > 0:32:54And as the guy said in the middle here,

0:32:54 > 0:32:56you know, who's there to promote carrots?

0:32:56 > 0:33:00You know, you don't get the same sort of publicity.

0:33:00 > 0:33:01It does seem to me...

0:33:01 > 0:33:04Can I suggest parents are perhaps there to promote carrots?

0:33:04 > 0:33:06Of course, parents. But do you know what?

0:33:06 > 0:33:08There are poor children being born today

0:33:08 > 0:33:11who will not live as long as their parents.

0:33:11 > 0:33:16We have to do something about the obesity in our society.

0:33:16 > 0:33:18We must tackle it. We can't just keep talking about it.

0:33:18 > 0:33:21OK. Let us talk about it a bit more with our audience.

0:33:21 > 0:33:23The woman there first of all.

0:33:23 > 0:33:25If the policy is successful

0:33:25 > 0:33:28and manufacturers convert their sugar into, say,

0:33:28 > 0:33:32saccharin or aspartame, what would the impact be?

0:33:32 > 0:33:35- Because I thought they were meant to be more unhealthy?- As bad.- Yes.

0:33:35 > 0:33:37And you, sir, in the yellow waistcoat.

0:33:37 > 0:33:40Instead of the sugar tax, isn't it time that this,

0:33:40 > 0:33:43all of us, in fact, swallowed the bitter pill

0:33:43 > 0:33:45of a dedicated tax to help fund the NHS?

0:33:45 > 0:33:47All right.

0:33:47 > 0:33:50And the woman in the spectacles there at the back.

0:33:50 > 0:33:53For me, the sugar tax is a real red herring.

0:33:53 > 0:33:56I think a far more worthwhile policy would be helping children

0:33:56 > 0:33:58to learn how to cook and teaching them more about nutrition.

0:33:58 > 0:34:00Because people are getting fatter

0:34:00 > 0:34:03because they don't have the time or the inclination to cook properly.

0:34:03 > 0:34:05OK, and you up there.

0:34:06 > 0:34:09The person up there at the back.

0:34:09 > 0:34:11Surely it's about time to educate parents

0:34:11 > 0:34:14not to give children sugary drinks.

0:34:14 > 0:34:17They ought to start promoting giving them tap water,

0:34:17 > 0:34:19which is a lot cheaper.

0:34:19 > 0:34:22So it doesn't matter if you come from a poor background,

0:34:22 > 0:34:24or sort of what income you have,

0:34:24 > 0:34:26- water is cheap.- OK.

0:34:26 > 0:34:29And you, sir, on the gangway here. Yes.

0:34:29 > 0:34:32Yes, the issue is consumption, not production.

0:34:32 > 0:34:35And if the government was sincere about the health of the children,

0:34:35 > 0:34:37they would actually legislate

0:34:37 > 0:34:39to limit the amount of sugar in the drinks in the first place

0:34:39 > 0:34:42and not just apply a tax that won't affect very many people.

0:34:42 > 0:34:44Good points. Can we go on?

0:34:44 > 0:34:45Let's go on to another question, then.

0:34:45 > 0:34:48Amber Finch, let's have your question, please.

0:34:48 > 0:34:51Will forcing schools to become academies raise standards,

0:34:51 > 0:34:54or will it just be the same school with same problems just rebranded?

0:34:54 > 0:34:57Very interesting. We've had a lot of questions about academy schools.

0:34:57 > 0:35:01And the policy is that all schools, within six years,

0:35:01 > 0:35:03are going to be academy schools.

0:35:03 > 0:35:05Will it raise standards,

0:35:05 > 0:35:08or will they just be the same schools with the same old problems?

0:35:08 > 0:35:11Emily Thornberry, you kick off on this.

0:35:11 > 0:35:13- I think that the way... - It was Labour policy,

0:35:13 > 0:35:15it should be said, wasn't it, to start with?

0:35:15 > 0:35:17Labour's policy was to introduce academies

0:35:17 > 0:35:19where a school was failing.

0:35:19 > 0:35:22And, as part of a larger package, was to make a school an academy

0:35:22 > 0:35:25as an attempt to try to raise standards.

0:35:25 > 0:35:27What the government is doing

0:35:27 > 0:35:29is they have introduced, on the basis of dogma,

0:35:29 > 0:35:31they have decided that all schools should be academies,

0:35:31 > 0:35:34whether they want to be academies or not.

0:35:34 > 0:35:36And most primary schools do not want to be academies.

0:35:36 > 0:35:40Eight out of ten primary schools are either good or outstanding.

0:35:40 > 0:35:43You know, so why do they need to be made academies?

0:35:43 > 0:35:44Why do they need to be made academies?

0:35:44 > 0:35:46What do they lose by being an academy?

0:35:46 > 0:35:49Just for the sake of people who are not up to speed on this.

0:35:49 > 0:35:51So if you're an academy,

0:35:51 > 0:35:53it basically means you're a stand-alone school.

0:35:53 > 0:35:56So the head teacher, who's having problems with not enough staff,

0:35:56 > 0:36:00with 8% cuts to their budget, you know, a whole range of problems,

0:36:00 > 0:36:02problems about attainment, all kind of crises,

0:36:02 > 0:36:05the new Sats, which the government have introduced

0:36:05 > 0:36:07without giving any proper details,

0:36:07 > 0:36:09the new GCSEs, the new A-levels...

0:36:09 > 0:36:12All these different things, that head teachers have to deal with.

0:36:12 > 0:36:14Instead, they have to stop doing all of that,

0:36:14 > 0:36:15they have to go off and find some trustees,

0:36:15 > 0:36:18they have to set themselves up as an independent school.

0:36:18 > 0:36:20If they're a small primary school in a village,

0:36:20 > 0:36:22where they've got, let's say, 120 kids,

0:36:22 > 0:36:25they're not going to be allowed to be an academy by themselves.

0:36:25 > 0:36:28So they're going to have to find themselves another school

0:36:28 > 0:36:29to become an academy with,

0:36:29 > 0:36:31or join one of these dreadful academy chains,

0:36:31 > 0:36:33which the Chief Inspector has said

0:36:33 > 0:36:36some of them are worse than some of the worst local authorities.

0:36:36 > 0:36:39You know, it's not just me, Nicky, who criticises the academies

0:36:39 > 0:36:41and the way in which you're insisting

0:36:41 > 0:36:43all schools become academies.

0:36:43 > 0:36:44If you listen to the spokesperson

0:36:44 > 0:36:47from the Local Government Association, who's a Tory,

0:36:47 > 0:36:48I mean, he is quite astounded

0:36:48 > 0:36:51that you're insisting on all primary schools,

0:36:51 > 0:36:53all schools becoming academies.

0:36:53 > 0:36:55He says it defies reason

0:36:55 > 0:36:58that councils are being portrayed as barriers to improvement,

0:36:58 > 0:37:04given that 82% of council-maintained schools are good or outstanding.

0:37:04 > 0:37:05So what they're doing is,

0:37:05 > 0:37:08instead of actually dealing with the problems that they have,

0:37:08 > 0:37:10and they have a number of problems -

0:37:10 > 0:37:13not enough maths teachers, not enough physics teachers,

0:37:13 > 0:37:14the number of pupils going up,

0:37:14 > 0:37:17the amount of money going into the budgets going down...

0:37:17 > 0:37:21Instead of addressing any of that, they decide to simply follow dogma

0:37:21 > 0:37:24and make all schools - force all schools to - become academies.

0:37:24 > 0:37:26- It's not thought through.- All right.

0:37:26 > 0:37:28Just a reminder that it was...

0:37:30 > 0:37:35It was, nevertheless, Labour that started the ball rolling.

0:37:35 > 0:37:36But only for failed schools.

0:37:36 > 0:37:38This is like Lansley.

0:37:38 > 0:37:41Why would it do better for failed schools?

0:37:41 > 0:37:44Because when you had tried everything else, in the end,

0:37:44 > 0:37:48what you would do is allow a school to be essentially reborn.

0:37:48 > 0:37:50You would put in support from elsewhere,

0:37:50 > 0:37:52you would put in additional money,

0:37:52 > 0:37:54you would quite often put in...

0:37:54 > 0:37:56You would help rebuild the schools.

0:37:56 > 0:37:58And then you would put focus on that school

0:37:58 > 0:38:01and it would be given a great deal of support and assistance.

0:38:01 > 0:38:03Instead, what this government's doing

0:38:03 > 0:38:06is allowing all the school, forcing all the schools

0:38:06 > 0:38:08to become independent, without that sort of support.

0:38:08 > 0:38:09Nicky Morgan.

0:38:09 > 0:38:13Yes, academisation does absolutely raise standards.

0:38:13 > 0:38:17We've got 1.4 million more children in schools rated good or outstanding

0:38:17 > 0:38:19than we had in 2010.

0:38:19 > 0:38:22And what we see is that, actually, having a sponsor,

0:38:22 > 0:38:27having somebody else running the school than a local authority,

0:38:27 > 0:38:29absolutely does drive school improvement.

0:38:29 > 0:38:31- There is no evidence. - Hold on. You had a long go.

0:38:31 > 0:38:33- Let her answer.- There is plenty.

0:38:33 > 0:38:35- There is no evidence. - Emily, do let her just answer.

0:38:35 > 0:38:37There is plenty of evidence.

0:38:37 > 0:38:39Results in primary sponsored academies,

0:38:39 > 0:38:41they're improving faster than local-authority schools.

0:38:41 > 0:38:43We see that in secondary converter academies,

0:38:43 > 0:38:45their proportion of GCSEs being passed

0:38:45 > 0:38:47is higher than in local-authority schools.

0:38:47 > 0:38:50- You're using jargon about converter schools.- I'm sorry. I'm sorry.

0:38:50 > 0:38:52Just to clarify.

0:38:52 > 0:38:54- If a school is made to become an academy...- Yep.

0:38:54 > 0:38:57..does it have to look for a sponsor

0:38:57 > 0:39:00or can it just find a group of trustees and they do it?

0:39:00 > 0:39:03They can do it both ways. So if a school wants to convert...

0:39:03 > 0:39:06And what we've seen is many schools become academies on their own

0:39:06 > 0:39:08in the course of the last six years,

0:39:08 > 0:39:10because they're strong enough to do that.

0:39:10 > 0:39:12But if there is a problem, if a school has been failing,

0:39:12 > 0:39:16or if its pupils are not making the progress that they should be,

0:39:16 > 0:39:18then we will find them a sponsor.

0:39:18 > 0:39:20And supposing a head teacher is happy

0:39:20 > 0:39:22with his or her own arrangements within a council,

0:39:22 > 0:39:25why are you forcing them to become academies?

0:39:25 > 0:39:26Well, because we know...

0:39:26 > 0:39:28What we're seeing in the system is more collaboration,

0:39:28 > 0:39:30more schools working together.

0:39:30 > 0:39:32And the ultimate thing is,

0:39:32 > 0:39:35we believe the people who are best capable of running schools

0:39:35 > 0:39:38are the heads, the teachers and the governors.

0:39:38 > 0:39:41And if they say they don't want to be academies?

0:39:42 > 0:39:45Well, we think... We do want all schools to become academies.

0:39:45 > 0:39:47I mean, that's the direction of travel.

0:39:47 > 0:39:48We don't have the capacity

0:39:48 > 0:39:50to run two different systems in this country -

0:39:50 > 0:39:52some local-authority, some academy schools.

0:39:52 > 0:39:55Academy schools are hugely successful. There are...

0:39:55 > 0:39:57And some are not.

0:39:57 > 0:39:58Well, where they aren't, Emily,

0:39:58 > 0:40:01actually, we will intervene much more swiftly.

0:40:01 > 0:40:03You have a school in your own constituency

0:40:03 > 0:40:06which languished in local-authority control in special measures

0:40:06 > 0:40:07for six years.

0:40:07 > 0:40:10That will not happen with the academy system,

0:40:10 > 0:40:12because we will intervene much more swiftly to turn them around.

0:40:12 > 0:40:15It's a universal policy, in other words. Roger Helmer.

0:40:15 > 0:40:17I don't pretend to know a lot about education.

0:40:17 > 0:40:20But I do know a lot about managing large groups of people,

0:40:20 > 0:40:22because that's what I used to do before I got into politics.

0:40:22 > 0:40:25You may think you've got the greatest idea in the world

0:40:25 > 0:40:26for academies.

0:40:26 > 0:40:28And there are similar comments that can be made

0:40:28 > 0:40:31about the health service and the junior doctors.

0:40:31 > 0:40:32Isn't it part of your job

0:40:32 > 0:40:35to sell your ideas to people instead of just saying,

0:40:35 > 0:40:37"That's what you've got to do"?

0:40:37 > 0:40:40To get them on board, so they're enthusiastic?

0:40:40 > 0:40:43But we see that. People are adopting the academisation,

0:40:43 > 0:40:45people are converting voluntarily.

0:40:45 > 0:40:47And if you go to schools up and down the country,

0:40:47 > 0:40:49as I do, day in and day out,

0:40:49 > 0:40:53you see fantastic heads and teachers running their schools,

0:40:53 > 0:40:54working with other schools,

0:40:54 > 0:40:57making a difference to the young people in their charge.

0:40:57 > 0:40:58That is what I want to see.

0:40:58 > 0:41:01And at the end of the day, Roger, as Secretary of State,

0:41:01 > 0:41:05people do expect me to set out my vision for the education system,

0:41:05 > 0:41:07to lead and to work with others.

0:41:07 > 0:41:10That's exactly what our white paper today is all about.

0:41:10 > 0:41:12It's answering the questions that we started in the last government

0:41:12 > 0:41:14and saying, "This is where we are headed.

0:41:14 > 0:41:17"We are all going towards this place."

0:41:17 > 0:41:18All right, let's hear..

0:41:18 > 0:41:20But what is absolutely clear is

0:41:20 > 0:41:23you are insisting on people choosing the route that you've set

0:41:23 > 0:41:26and not having a choice whether to become academies or not.

0:41:26 > 0:41:29We are reaching a tipping point, as I say,

0:41:29 > 0:41:30and, actually, we want to run one system

0:41:30 > 0:41:32where the money goes directly to the schools,

0:41:32 > 0:41:35- and it's the schools that manage themselves.- I think we've got that.

0:41:35 > 0:41:38Let us hear from the audience. You, sir.

0:41:38 > 0:41:40I'm sorry, this is just not going to solve the crisis

0:41:40 > 0:41:42in recruitment, in retention in schools,

0:41:42 > 0:41:44which is getting worse and worse

0:41:44 > 0:41:46and will not change unless you make significant steps

0:41:46 > 0:41:50improving the workload and the pay of teachers.

0:41:50 > 0:41:52All right. And the woman there.

0:41:52 > 0:41:55APPLAUSE

0:41:56 > 0:41:59By turning schools into academies,

0:41:59 > 0:42:00are we passing off the government -

0:42:00 > 0:42:03using that to pass off responsibility for failing schools

0:42:03 > 0:42:07- to the local authorities and the trustees of the schools?- No.

0:42:07 > 0:42:09- Is that what you think? - I do, yes.

0:42:09 > 0:42:12- Do you want to answer? - No. Absolutely not.

0:42:12 > 0:42:14What we are saying is the Department for Education,

0:42:14 > 0:42:16me as Secretary of State -

0:42:16 > 0:42:19we have these eight regional school commissioners around the country -

0:42:19 > 0:42:22absolutely get involved in schools that are failing.

0:42:22 > 0:42:25The whole purpose of the Education Adoption Act that we just passed,

0:42:25 > 0:42:26that got Royal Assent yesterday,

0:42:26 > 0:42:29is about identifying schools, both maintained and academies,

0:42:29 > 0:42:32that are failing, or are coasting, and actually intervening swiftly.

0:42:32 > 0:42:34Can I just come back to the point

0:42:34 > 0:42:36the gentleman made about teacher recruitment?

0:42:36 > 0:42:38Because it is very, very important.

0:42:38 > 0:42:40The biggest thing that improves the life chance of young people

0:42:40 > 0:42:42is the quality of the teaching

0:42:42 > 0:42:45and having enough great teachers in the classroom.

0:42:45 > 0:42:47And if you look at the white paper that we published today,

0:42:47 > 0:42:49the whole thing is about setting out

0:42:49 > 0:42:51and supporting teachers as professionals.

0:42:51 > 0:42:54It's about making sure that they are absolutely in control,

0:42:54 > 0:42:57that we've got the best teachers in our classrooms,

0:42:57 > 0:42:59and they're supported by their head teachers.

0:42:59 > 0:43:03Is anyone here - you've got experience of this around here -

0:43:03 > 0:43:06in favour of the academy schools?

0:43:06 > 0:43:07You are, sir.

0:43:07 > 0:43:09You are.

0:43:09 > 0:43:13You've spoken already. You've spoken already, too!

0:43:13 > 0:43:15Anybody else who has not spoken already?

0:43:15 > 0:43:17Well, OK, go on, then, quickly, you in pink there.

0:43:17 > 0:43:20- And then I'll come to you. - It's moving forward.

0:43:20 > 0:43:23And it's taking schools to the next level.

0:43:23 > 0:43:25It's investment.

0:43:25 > 0:43:27And I think the Conservatives are doing a great job

0:43:27 > 0:43:30- in making that move.- Tasmina.

0:43:30 > 0:43:34Of course, education is devolved to Scotland.

0:43:34 > 0:43:37But we're always very keen to learn from good practice

0:43:37 > 0:43:39for our systems up north as well.

0:43:39 > 0:43:41But in terms of these academies,

0:43:41 > 0:43:42I can't help but think,

0:43:42 > 0:43:46because they are being imposed upon rather than through choice,

0:43:46 > 0:43:48that we may well be creeping towards a system where,

0:43:48 > 0:43:51depending on where you live and who is running your school,

0:43:51 > 0:43:54will depend on the type of education that you get.

0:43:54 > 0:43:57And, you know, education for our young people

0:43:57 > 0:44:00must be based on absolutely their ability to learn,

0:44:00 > 0:44:02not their ability to pay or where they might live.

0:44:02 > 0:44:05But, Nicky, you can't help but find yourself in a situation

0:44:05 > 0:44:08where, if every school has to be an academy,

0:44:08 > 0:44:10whether they like it or not,

0:44:10 > 0:44:13you will have some schools who are more willing to do it than others.

0:44:13 > 0:44:16You will have different terms and conditions in different schools.

0:44:16 > 0:44:18You will have an issue in terms of recruitment

0:44:18 > 0:44:20and in terms of the breadth of pupils

0:44:20 > 0:44:21who are going to those schools.

0:44:21 > 0:44:25Then, why wouldn't you get that with local-authority control?

0:44:25 > 0:44:28- Pardon?- Why don't you get that with local-authority control?

0:44:28 > 0:44:31Well, with local authority control you can be guaranteed there is,

0:44:31 > 0:44:33in terms of a comprehensive education system, David,

0:44:33 > 0:44:38you can be guaranteed that everyone can benefit from the same education.

0:44:38 > 0:44:39What can happen in certain areas,

0:44:39 > 0:44:42particularly if people don't want to do it...

0:44:42 > 0:44:44Because, remember, this is not through choice.

0:44:44 > 0:44:47You can apply for free schools if you wish in Scotland through choice

0:44:47 > 0:44:48and people make applications,

0:44:48 > 0:44:52but that's because the parents and the head teachers want it to happen.

0:44:52 > 0:44:54You have a different set of circumstances

0:44:54 > 0:44:56where that is imposed upon you.

0:44:56 > 0:45:00And what we need to make sure that we're protecting national pay,

0:45:00 > 0:45:02we're protecting national terms and conditions.

0:45:02 > 0:45:04What we don't have is different terms and conditions

0:45:04 > 0:45:08across different schools, because it's the children that will suffer.

0:45:08 > 0:45:10OK, I think you've made the point.

0:45:10 > 0:45:11Mark Littlewood.

0:45:11 > 0:45:14The more I hear these sort of debates,

0:45:14 > 0:45:16the more I become more and more persuaded

0:45:16 > 0:45:19that we've got to get politicians and bureaucrats

0:45:19 > 0:45:21out of our education system altogether.

0:45:21 > 0:45:23APPLAUSE

0:45:28 > 0:45:30I am, therefore, sympathetic

0:45:30 > 0:45:33to the direction of travel that Nicky is going in.

0:45:33 > 0:45:36I'm sympathetic to it. I don't necessarily sign up to all of it.

0:45:36 > 0:45:38But I'm sympathetic to it.

0:45:38 > 0:45:41Because I don't really want local-education authorities,

0:45:41 > 0:45:42politicians, meddling in it.

0:45:42 > 0:45:45The one thing I hope we don't swap out

0:45:45 > 0:45:48is if we remove the local bureaucracy,

0:45:48 > 0:45:52I hope that's not replaced by central diktats being issued

0:45:52 > 0:45:54by the Secretary of State for Education,

0:45:54 > 0:45:57however charming and well-intentioned she may be.

0:45:57 > 0:46:00We have got to let teachers teach again.

0:46:00 > 0:46:04We are having political arguments that lead to endless form filling,

0:46:04 > 0:46:09tick boxes, incredibly prescriptive national curriculums

0:46:09 > 0:46:12about exactly what each pupil needs to learn when.

0:46:12 > 0:46:16Let's put our faith back in the teaching profession.

0:46:16 > 0:46:18Let them design the curriculum.

0:46:18 > 0:46:20Let them work out what happens in the classroom.

0:46:20 > 0:46:23More power to the teachers, less to the politicians,

0:46:23 > 0:46:26and we'll have a much better education system in the UK.

0:46:26 > 0:46:29All right. One more point from you, sir.

0:46:29 > 0:46:30The point made here...

0:46:30 > 0:46:34When you came to being Education Secretary in 2014,

0:46:34 > 0:46:38you said - September, at the Conservative conference -

0:46:38 > 0:46:42you said you were going to reduce the teachers' workload.

0:46:42 > 0:46:43What happened?

0:46:43 > 0:46:45We have taken steps absolutely to do that.

0:46:45 > 0:46:47APPLAUSE

0:46:47 > 0:46:49What about the extra hour, Nicky?

0:46:49 > 0:46:51Is that going to help teacher recruitment?

0:46:51 > 0:46:53It doesn't have to be run by teachers.

0:46:53 > 0:46:56The whole point about extracurricular activities

0:46:56 > 0:46:58is that other people can come in and run the sport.

0:46:58 > 0:46:59Very briefly.

0:46:59 > 0:47:02We have absolutely made a commitment of not introducing changes

0:47:02 > 0:47:05midway through the year, lightening the Ofsted load, we've more say.

0:47:05 > 0:47:07There are three working groups looking at the things

0:47:07 > 0:47:09that teachers most complain about -

0:47:09 > 0:47:12marking, data collection and lesson-planning.

0:47:12 > 0:47:14and I'll have more to say about that next week.

0:47:14 > 0:47:15Can I just raise a point?

0:47:15 > 0:47:19There are some parts of the country where all these schools,

0:47:19 > 0:47:22in an area where you have grave concerns about education standards,

0:47:22 > 0:47:24they are all academies.

0:47:24 > 0:47:26And you have nothing, no you have answer

0:47:26 > 0:47:28to how to raise the standards there.

0:47:28 > 0:47:31If you're only way of raising standards, as you say,

0:47:31 > 0:47:33is by turning a school into an academy,

0:47:33 > 0:47:35you know, you don't have the answers.

0:47:35 > 0:47:37You need to read the white paper,

0:47:37 > 0:47:39because that is exactly what we cover in the white paper.

0:47:39 > 0:47:41I'm a bit weird - I have.

0:47:41 > 0:47:43And what you've got is, in order to be able

0:47:43 > 0:47:45to get more teachers into the profession,

0:47:45 > 0:47:46you're setting up a website.

0:47:46 > 0:47:48You're setting up a website.

0:47:48 > 0:47:49We have had four years

0:47:49 > 0:47:51with more teachers leaving the profession

0:47:51 > 0:47:53than we've had coming into the profession.

0:47:53 > 0:47:54You have a crisis,

0:47:54 > 0:47:57in terms of recruitment and retention of teachers.

0:47:57 > 0:47:59Yes, you may have more teachers than ever,

0:47:59 > 0:48:02but you have more pupils than ever.

0:48:02 > 0:48:04We have these ginormous great schools,

0:48:04 > 0:48:07we have, you know, so many children in classes of more than 40,

0:48:07 > 0:48:08and you're not addressing that.

0:48:08 > 0:48:10It is becoming like Andrew Lansley

0:48:10 > 0:48:13and the health service all over again.

0:48:13 > 0:48:15Nicky, I'll give you a sentence or two.

0:48:15 > 0:48:18We have a challenge in teacher recruitment,

0:48:18 > 0:48:21but particularly because there are certain subjects...

0:48:21 > 0:48:23Maths, physics...

0:48:23 > 0:48:26Please, don't interrupt each other. Please. Or we'll never get anywhere.

0:48:26 > 0:48:28Just let each other speak.

0:48:28 > 0:48:31Fewer people took them and studied them to A-level and beyond

0:48:31 > 0:48:33under the last Labour government

0:48:33 > 0:48:36and, therefore, that has led to issues around teacher recruitment.

0:48:36 > 0:48:39Doctor Catherine Gouveia, please.

0:48:39 > 0:48:42I think it may be our last question. Let's have it.

0:48:42 > 0:48:44Thank you. I'm a junior doctor,

0:48:44 > 0:48:46my husband works in financial markets,

0:48:46 > 0:48:48yet between us we find it difficult

0:48:48 > 0:48:50to evaluate the pros and cons

0:48:50 > 0:48:53of making a voting decision in the EU referendum.

0:48:53 > 0:48:57Have the public been well prepared to vote in this referendum?

0:48:57 > 0:49:00Right. When you say, "I'm a doctor and my husband works in finance,"

0:49:00 > 0:49:02you mean that... we ought to understand it?

0:49:02 > 0:49:04Yes.

0:49:04 > 0:49:05That's saying a lot!

0:49:05 > 0:49:08LAUGHTER

0:49:08 > 0:49:10Mark Littlewood, the question is an important one,

0:49:10 > 0:49:11and we get it all the time.

0:49:11 > 0:49:13The pros and cons of the EU referendum.

0:49:13 > 0:49:15Have the public been prepared to vote?

0:49:15 > 0:49:18Do they know enough? Has enough been said? Is it clear enough?

0:49:18 > 0:49:20Your go. Fire away.

0:49:20 > 0:49:23By June 23rd, I'm pretty sure you and your partner

0:49:23 > 0:49:27will be heartily sick of another 99 days

0:49:27 > 0:49:29of people fighting about the European Union.

0:49:29 > 0:49:32Look, I think this is going to be a major decision

0:49:32 > 0:49:36that is going to have an impact on the UK

0:49:36 > 0:49:38for potentially generations to come.

0:49:38 > 0:49:39I don't have an issue

0:49:39 > 0:49:42in which I have a different opinion to my partner,

0:49:42 > 0:49:45I have an issue in which I have a different opinion

0:49:45 > 0:49:47to be the one I had 20 years ago.

0:49:47 > 0:49:49You were a federalist?

0:49:49 > 0:49:53Yeah, I was a former keen pro-European.

0:49:53 > 0:49:56I love the idea of a European Union

0:49:56 > 0:49:59that is liberal, democratic,

0:49:59 > 0:50:03a brotherhood of man, light-touch regulation.

0:50:03 > 0:50:05And if that European Union does exist

0:50:05 > 0:50:07somewhere in a parallel universe,

0:50:07 > 0:50:09then that's great for that parallel universe.

0:50:09 > 0:50:11Oh, it's reformed. Nicky's already told us.

0:50:11 > 0:50:13But it doesn't exist here.

0:50:13 > 0:50:16So you're going to have to, just as you do in a general election,

0:50:16 > 0:50:18or I think this decision is more important, however,

0:50:18 > 0:50:20you're going to have to listen to all sides of the debate

0:50:20 > 0:50:23and you're going to have to decide who you trust

0:50:23 > 0:50:26and what, in your heart and your head, feels right.

0:50:26 > 0:50:29And I think it is absolutely right and proper

0:50:29 > 0:50:32that this decision is being batted to you, the electorate,

0:50:32 > 0:50:35not the politicians on this panel.

0:50:35 > 0:50:38- What, you that it was right to have a referendum?- Yes.

0:50:38 > 0:50:41And it wasn't just to save the Conservative Party

0:50:41 > 0:50:42from its divisions?

0:50:42 > 0:50:44I'm sure it was to save the Conservative Party

0:50:44 > 0:50:45from its divisions.

0:50:45 > 0:50:49But even if that was the trigger for it, I'm delighted that we've got it.

0:50:49 > 0:50:53Finally, at last, after decades of arguing about it,

0:50:53 > 0:50:55you, the people, are actually going to decide

0:50:55 > 0:50:56on the future of our nation.

0:50:56 > 0:50:58- And your vote - decided? - I will vote to leave.

0:50:58 > 0:51:00You're going to vote to leave. All right.

0:51:00 > 0:51:02And even if you find it boring and technical

0:51:02 > 0:51:04and there's mudslinging involved,

0:51:04 > 0:51:06I just implore you, do your best

0:51:06 > 0:51:08to try and make the best judgment you can.

0:51:08 > 0:51:09Because what you do on June 23rd

0:51:09 > 0:51:12will have an impact for a very long time to come.

0:51:12 > 0:51:14APPLAUSE

0:51:14 > 0:51:17And it's been noticeable, Emily Thornberry,

0:51:17 > 0:51:19that the Prime Minister and the people around him

0:51:19 > 0:51:22who want to remain have been vociferous,

0:51:22 > 0:51:26and Labour's been strangely silent about this whole issue.

0:51:26 > 0:51:28Not speaking out. Why is that?

0:51:28 > 0:51:31I don't think we're not speaking out.

0:51:31 > 0:51:32- We never hear you.- Well, all right.

0:51:32 > 0:51:35You know, well, let's talk a bit louder.

0:51:35 > 0:51:38Labour is in favour of remaining in the European Union

0:51:38 > 0:51:41because, over and above everything else,

0:51:41 > 0:51:44we need to make sure that people have jobs,

0:51:44 > 0:51:45and we need to make sure

0:51:45 > 0:51:47that we have investment coming into this country.

0:51:47 > 0:51:50And we believe, at a time when there may be cold winds

0:51:50 > 0:51:53blowing through the economies of the world in the near future,

0:51:53 > 0:51:55we must stay in the European Union.

0:51:55 > 0:51:58It is to the advantage of all of us.

0:51:58 > 0:52:00Do you believe the ground has been well prepared?

0:52:00 > 0:52:02And that's why I asked you the question about Labour.

0:52:02 > 0:52:04Do you think the issues have been spelled out

0:52:04 > 0:52:07in a way that somebody with a busy life, a professional life,

0:52:07 > 0:52:10listening to the arguments, can make up their minds?

0:52:10 > 0:52:15I think that jobs and investment are two very important reasons.

0:52:15 > 0:52:17I think that if we were to go off as an island

0:52:17 > 0:52:20off into the Atlantic all by ourselves,

0:52:20 > 0:52:22I think we would be putting ourselves at risk.

0:52:22 > 0:52:25I think the world is getting to be a smaller place

0:52:25 > 0:52:27and I think we've talked about it tonight -

0:52:27 > 0:52:29you know, some of these multinational companies

0:52:29 > 0:52:31do not care about national borders any more.

0:52:31 > 0:52:34We need to be able to remain within the European Union

0:52:34 > 0:52:37so that we are big enough to stand up to these companies.

0:52:37 > 0:52:40And also there are issues such as climate change

0:52:40 > 0:52:42which do not recognise national borders.

0:52:42 > 0:52:45We need to be able to work within a bigger union.

0:52:45 > 0:52:47That's why we are safer.

0:52:47 > 0:52:49I think we are in one of the safer corners of the world

0:52:49 > 0:52:51and we should keep it that way.

0:52:51 > 0:52:53Do you think the arguments have been well put?

0:52:53 > 0:52:55APPLAUSE

0:52:55 > 0:52:57I think the arguments have been very much focused

0:52:57 > 0:53:00towards the economic side, but what about the cultural side of things?

0:53:00 > 0:53:03So I think that we as a nation, and in Chelmsford in particular,

0:53:03 > 0:53:07I feel like we're very naive about other cultures.

0:53:07 > 0:53:08And surely by leaving the EU

0:53:08 > 0:53:10we would become more naive

0:53:10 > 0:53:12because we wouldn't learn about the other cultures in Europe.

0:53:12 > 0:53:15All right. And at the very back there,

0:53:15 > 0:53:18do you think that we are being well prepared for this vote?

0:53:18 > 0:53:20I don't think we're being very well prepared at all.

0:53:20 > 0:53:24I haven't heard - purely because I'm 17 -

0:53:24 > 0:53:27I haven't heard much about how it's going to impact

0:53:27 > 0:53:29the next generation at all.

0:53:29 > 0:53:33All right. And you, sir, up there on the gangway.

0:53:33 > 0:53:37I'm a little bit more concerned that the politicians don't know

0:53:37 > 0:53:40whether we should stay in the EU or leave the EU.

0:53:40 > 0:53:44And I'm a little bit concerned that having a Prime Minister

0:53:44 > 0:53:48that's so set on staying in the EU, when we have the chance to leave it,

0:53:48 > 0:53:51will create more economic uncertainty if we do vote to leave.

0:53:51 > 0:53:53All right. Roger Helmer.

0:53:53 > 0:53:56Well, what we get is, we get people, as in this audience,

0:53:56 > 0:53:58saying, "Tell us the facts."

0:53:58 > 0:54:00Now, what we're looking at is the future,

0:54:00 > 0:54:02two years, five years ahead,

0:54:02 > 0:54:05and nobody can be sure what is going to be happening

0:54:05 > 0:54:07two years or five years ahead.

0:54:07 > 0:54:11Although we have a pretty clear idea of the sort of trade terms -

0:54:11 > 0:54:13it can't be worse than WTO trade rules -

0:54:13 > 0:54:16and we will get a free trade deal which will be better.

0:54:16 > 0:54:19But the question I would put to those who want to stay in,

0:54:19 > 0:54:23what is the European Union going to look like in five years' time?

0:54:23 > 0:54:26In five years' time, those million migrants in Germany,

0:54:26 > 0:54:28if they've stayed in Germany,

0:54:28 > 0:54:30will have a right, under free movement,

0:54:30 > 0:54:34to come to any other member states, including to Britain.

0:54:36 > 0:54:37And right as we speak,

0:54:37 > 0:54:41there is this European Council going on today and tomorrow,

0:54:41 > 0:54:44where they're discussing this absolutely bizarre deal with Turkey,

0:54:44 > 0:54:47where Turkey takes one person back from Greece

0:54:47 > 0:54:51in exchange for Greece taking one migrant from Turkey.

0:54:51 > 0:54:55And we're paying 6 billion euros for the privilege.

0:54:55 > 0:54:59And we are fast tracking visa-free access to the Schengen area.

0:54:59 > 0:55:03And we've agreed to fast-track Turkish membership.

0:55:03 > 0:55:07Turkish membership is 75 million Turks.

0:55:07 > 0:55:09Now, I'm not going to suggest for a moment

0:55:09 > 0:55:11that 75 million Turks are coming to Britain.

0:55:11 > 0:55:15But it is quite reasonable to suppose that several million

0:55:15 > 0:55:18might move to Western Europe in the interests of...

0:55:18 > 0:55:21All right. The woman there.

0:55:21 > 0:55:23Three in. Yes.

0:55:25 > 0:55:26I think it's amazing

0:55:26 > 0:55:29how inarticulate the politicians are with this.

0:55:29 > 0:55:33I think if you were to ask people why to stay or why to go,

0:55:33 > 0:55:35you would have better conversations in the pub

0:55:35 > 0:55:38than you would hear in the House of Commons,

0:55:38 > 0:55:40and ones which people would understand.

0:55:40 > 0:55:41I work in marketing

0:55:41 > 0:55:44and I think they're two of the worst campaigns I've seen.

0:55:44 > 0:55:45I think you should be very clear

0:55:45 > 0:55:48about what we would gain if we stayed

0:55:48 > 0:55:50and what we would be losing if we left.

0:55:50 > 0:55:53Those are the two questions we need answering before we can vote.

0:55:53 > 0:55:56APPLAUSE

0:55:56 > 0:55:57Tasmina.

0:55:59 > 0:56:00Thank you, David.

0:56:00 > 0:56:03If I may go back to the lady who asked the initial question,

0:56:03 > 0:56:05is the ground well prepared? No, it's not.

0:56:05 > 0:56:06It certainly isn't yet.

0:56:06 > 0:56:08And that's one of the reasons why

0:56:08 > 0:56:10we didn't want to have the referendum so close,

0:56:10 > 0:56:12because we want to give the people of this country

0:56:12 > 0:56:15an opportunity to have a national conversation.

0:56:15 > 0:56:18One which we enjoyed in the Scottish independence referendum,

0:56:18 > 0:56:21where all of the arguments, for and against -

0:56:21 > 0:56:23and, of course, there are two sides to every story -

0:56:23 > 0:56:26are played out, so people can make an informed decision

0:56:26 > 0:56:29based on fact, not based on fear.

0:56:29 > 0:56:31What we've seen at the moment, however,

0:56:31 > 0:56:35is men in suits involved in this debate from beginning to end,

0:56:35 > 0:56:38and there need to be more women involved in this debate.

0:56:38 > 0:56:42And I think we'll see... We will have a changing face of this debate

0:56:42 > 0:56:45when this happens, because we need to see and think about

0:56:45 > 0:56:47what membership of the EU means for women,

0:56:47 > 0:56:50what it means for young people, for farmers and fishermen.

0:56:50 > 0:56:53All of the sectors that make up our society

0:56:53 > 0:56:55should have a say in this debate.

0:56:55 > 0:56:57We shouldn't try and stifle the debate

0:56:57 > 0:56:59by saying people are going to be bored by it,

0:56:59 > 0:57:01this is a matter of great importance.

0:57:01 > 0:57:03And to the lady who's 17 at the back,

0:57:03 > 0:57:05I voted for you to have a vote in this referendum -

0:57:05 > 0:57:07you should most certainly be having one.

0:57:07 > 0:57:10Nicky Morgan, can you pick up the point that Tasmina made

0:57:10 > 0:57:13that this is being done in a rush? Why is it being done in such a rush?

0:57:13 > 0:57:16No, I don't think it's being done in a rush.

0:57:16 > 0:57:18But I think we've got time to debate the issues

0:57:18 > 0:57:21between the end of February or the middle of February,

0:57:21 > 0:57:23when the Prime Minister negotiated the deal,

0:57:23 > 0:57:25right through to the 23rd of June.

0:57:25 > 0:57:28And from the lady who talked about the campaigns,

0:57:28 > 0:57:31I mean, I think this is what we want to see, the conversations happening.

0:57:31 > 0:57:34- It shouldn't be happening just in Westminster.- Briefly.

0:57:34 > 0:57:36Yes, I must come back on Emily's point. She's worried about jobs.

0:57:36 > 0:57:38I'm worried about jobs, too.

0:57:38 > 0:57:41I'm worried about the jobs we've lost in the steel industry,

0:57:41 > 0:57:43the jobs we've lost with aluminium plant closures,

0:57:43 > 0:57:45the jobs we've lost in the chemicals industry

0:57:45 > 0:57:46and the fertiliser industry.

0:57:46 > 0:57:50- All as a direct result of European policies...- Nonsense.

0:57:50 > 0:57:52..which have driven up energy prices. Look at the facts.

0:57:52 > 0:57:55We have to stop. We've run out of time.

0:57:55 > 0:58:00Way run out of time. I'm so sorry to those of you who had your hands up.

0:58:00 > 0:58:03We will come back to it, but it won't be in Chelmsford.

0:58:03 > 0:58:05I know. What can be done?

0:58:05 > 0:58:09Question Time is back after Easter, on 7th April.

0:58:09 > 0:58:10We're going to be in Ilford.

0:58:10 > 0:58:12Come to Ilford. We have on the panel

0:58:12 > 0:58:16the novelist, the author of Trainspotting, Irvine Welsh,

0:58:16 > 0:58:19and the Daily Telegraph columnist Allison Pearson.

0:58:19 > 0:58:21I don't know who the politicians are going to be yet.

0:58:21 > 0:58:23And the week after that we're going to be in Doncaster.

0:58:23 > 0:58:26So if you want to come to either Ilford or Doncaster,

0:58:26 > 0:58:27there are the details on the screen.

0:58:27 > 0:58:30You can phone us or you can go to our website.

0:58:30 > 0:58:33If you phone us, it's...

0:58:33 > 0:58:37On Radio 5 Live, of course, this debate carries on into the night.

0:58:37 > 0:58:39But my thanks to our panel

0:58:39 > 0:58:41and all of you who came to Chelmsford to take part.

0:58:41 > 0:58:45Until a fortnight or so from now, from Question Time, goodnight.