:00:07. > :00:20.Good evening. This is Question Time from Ilford, east London.
:00:21. > :00:24.Welcome to you, whether you are watching on television, listening on
:00:25. > :00:30.the radio. Welcome to our panel. Conservative business Mr, and --
:00:31. > :00:35.Anna Soubry. Labour's shadow Leader of the House of Commons, Chris
:00:36. > :00:38.Bryant. Ukip MP Douglas Carswell. Economist Ruth Lea, and novelist and
:00:39. > :00:51.author of Trainspotting, Irvine Welsh.
:00:52. > :01:00.Thank you very much. Before our first question, don't forget
:01:01. > :01:05.Facebook, Twitter and text. You can comment on, argue with them disagree
:01:06. > :01:11.with everything said tonight. Our first question which comes from
:01:12. > :01:15.Michael Bond, please. Is it fair for David Cameron to use taxpayers'
:01:16. > :01:20.money to support one side of the EU referendum debate? This is the
:01:21. > :01:24.announcement that a brochure will be given at a cost of just over ?9
:01:25. > :01:32.million to everybody in the country. Irvine Welsh. No, it is obviously
:01:33. > :01:38.not fair. It is very unfair and should not be allowed. The same kind
:01:39. > :01:43.of thing happened in the Scottish referendum. A whole lot of one-sided
:01:44. > :01:46.propaganda. The same thing is going to happen here. There is no way it
:01:47. > :01:52.can be justified. APPLAUSE
:01:53. > :02:02.Anna Soubry. It is absolutely the right thing to do. You expect from
:02:03. > :02:07.your Government that it should take a view, especially on the most
:02:08. > :02:12.important decision, I think, that will be taken for actually many
:02:13. > :02:16.generations, and that is whether we stay in or leave the European Union.
:02:17. > :02:20.You would expect your Prime Minister and your Government to have a view
:02:21. > :02:24.and we do. We believe we are stronger, safer and better off in
:02:25. > :02:30.the EU. I completely agree and I think that this booklet, a copy of
:02:31. > :02:33.which I happen to have, sets out the arguments and also begins to
:02:34. > :02:37.establish the facts. When I go out and talk to people, people say they
:02:38. > :02:41.want to know what the facts are, they want to know what the arguments
:02:42. > :02:48.are. I think it is the duty of Government to take a lead. Somebody
:02:49. > :02:50.has to take a lead in this. Be stronger in campaign is excellent
:02:51. > :02:54.and we are waiting for the opposition to step up to the plate,
:02:55. > :02:58.too, and make the case, because we have to make that argument. It is
:02:59. > :03:02.not just about my generation but about my children and my
:03:03. > :03:07.grandchildren's future. That point is well taken, but Michael Bond's
:03:08. > :03:13.question was whether it is right to use taxpayers' money to support only
:03:14. > :03:16.one side of the referendum debate. The electoral commission said today,
:03:17. > :03:23.we don't think the Government should have done it. They are entitled to
:03:24. > :03:26.their opinion. They are in charge, organising the referendum. They are
:03:27. > :03:29.entitled to their view but I think it is absolutely right that the
:03:30. > :03:34.Government has a view and is prepared to go out and make the
:03:35. > :03:42.case. You do not mind being rebuked by the electoral commission? We will
:03:43. > :03:47.have a friendly fallout. Douglas Carswell. It is absolutely not right
:03:48. > :03:50.that this money is spent, Michael. APPLAUSE
:03:51. > :03:56.We are told there is no money for junior doctors and GPs but the
:03:57. > :04:01.Government manages to find nearly ?10 million to tell us what to
:04:02. > :04:03.think. That is disgraceful. The Government promised during the
:04:04. > :04:07.passage of the legislation that the Government would not be a lead
:04:08. > :04:13.campaigner, those are the words of David Liddington on the floor of the
:04:14. > :04:18.House of Commons last year. It is awful that in the same month that
:04:19. > :04:23.the Government has found this money in my own constituency a hospital
:04:24. > :04:29.has been closed -- hospital ward has been closed to save money. And it is
:04:30. > :04:33.propaganda. It claims Britain has special status in the EU, which is
:04:34. > :04:37.false. It claims it will allow us to keep control of our borders, which
:04:38. > :04:41.is false. This is propaganda put out by Number Ten because they are
:04:42. > :04:45.panicking. They were expecting at this stage to be ten or 15 points
:04:46. > :04:49.ahead in the referendum. They are starting to panic and doing it at
:04:50. > :04:57.our expense. What do you mean by propaganda? Do you mean it is lies?
:04:58. > :05:01.Is that what you are saying? They imply in their pamphlet that in
:05:02. > :05:04.order to trade with the European Union we need to be in the European
:05:05. > :05:11.Union and that is demonstrably false. They say we will have special
:05:12. > :05:16.status in the EU as a result of David Cameron's new deal. Nowhere in
:05:17. > :05:20.the text of his so-called new Deal is the word special status used.
:05:21. > :05:23.This is Government propaganda at our expense and it is disgraceful.
:05:24. > :05:31.APPLAUSE Chris Bryant, is it legitimate for
:05:32. > :05:36.the Government to say they are backing Remain and are entitled to
:05:37. > :05:41.put this out? I am not David Cameron's biggest fan on this panel
:05:42. > :05:46.so it is not my job to defend him. And I can think of lots of other
:05:47. > :05:49.ways of spending ?9 million in my own constituency in the Rhondda, for
:05:50. > :05:56.instance. But I watch Question Time nearly every week, I and one of
:05:57. > :06:00.those sad people. Nothing sad about it at all! You get my point. Every
:06:01. > :06:04.time Europe is debated there will be a member of the audience who says,
:06:05. > :06:12.why when people just give us the facts. Yesterday afternoon I was
:06:13. > :06:18.doorknocking in the hail and sunshine, both at the same time, and
:06:19. > :06:21.a woman said to me, I just want to see the facts. One fact I want to
:06:22. > :06:29.put into this, which is that in actual fact, the Government will pay
:06:30. > :06:35.for both sides, because there is freepost provided to both be in and
:06:36. > :06:39.out campaign. I am passionate in favour of staying in and I'm sick
:06:40. > :06:42.and tired of the out campaign only obsessing about process points
:06:43. > :06:46.rather than getting into the substance of the matter. Because
:06:47. > :06:49.here is the thing, I start from the fundamental principle, I am a Labour
:06:50. > :06:55.person and I believe we achieve more by our common endeavour than we do
:06:56. > :06:58.on our own. That is the same in the European Union. The big issues that
:06:59. > :07:04.face us as a country, whether climate change, terrorism,
:07:05. > :07:08.international crime or drugs, whatever it is, we need to be
:07:09. > :07:12.permanently cooperating on a day-to-day basis with our closest
:07:13. > :07:14.allies in Europe. That is why I will fight all my life to stay in the
:07:15. > :07:20.European Union. APPLAUSE
:07:21. > :07:26.There are a number of hands up in the audience, but Ruth Lea, you can
:07:27. > :07:35.have your say. Is it fair for this money to have been used for this?
:07:36. > :07:38.Certainly not. It should not be taxpayers who pay for this. Ahead of
:07:39. > :07:43.a general election, would you think the Government of the day would use
:07:44. > :07:48.taxpayers up the money to put out propaganda for the election? Of
:07:49. > :07:53.course not. And I'm afraid it is propaganda. When you say these are
:07:54. > :07:58.the facts, they are not at all. I would like to read out what this is
:07:59. > :08:01.about. It says on the front, why the government believes voting to remain
:08:02. > :08:05.in the EU is the best decision for the UK. I have to say, I had a quick
:08:06. > :08:12.look on the website today and it was half truths and misleading
:08:13. > :08:16.information all the way through. For example, it was talking about a
:08:17. > :08:19.trade deal with the European Union. I want a trade deal with the
:08:20. > :08:26.European Union. I'm sure everybody does. Then we would say, I have to
:08:27. > :08:31.stick to all the rules. Do all the other countries have to stick to the
:08:32. > :08:38.rules? Does Mexico, does career, do any of these countries? They are not
:08:39. > :08:42.actually in Europe. But Norway, which as I understand it is the kind
:08:43. > :08:46.of arrangement you want for Britain... No, it is not. What do
:08:47. > :08:54.you want, for us to be like North Korea? Excuse me, that is a very
:08:55. > :08:56.silly thing to say because North Korea does not have a close
:08:57. > :09:08.relationship with anybody. APPLAUSE
:09:09. > :09:18.If you would stop interrupting me for half a second, I will tell you.
:09:19. > :09:22.Let's be honest, I want a trade agreement with the European Union,
:09:23. > :09:28.of course. And identity any reason why that shouldn't be negotiated. We
:09:29. > :09:32.are good trading partners now, we have a huge trade deficit with the
:09:33. > :09:34.European Union and I would have thought any German car exporter
:09:35. > :09:38.would want to continue with that. I would like to see a trade agreement,
:09:39. > :09:48.but when it comes to the rest of it, like security, would we be better
:09:49. > :09:59.off? You ask me what relationship I want and I have told you, OK. You
:10:00. > :10:03.haven't. I agree the government need to set out their position but I
:10:04. > :10:06.don't think they needed ?9 million in the 21st-century when they could
:10:07. > :10:12.have used online social media, and for those that don't have access,
:10:13. > :10:16.they could have put things in libraries and post offices. So the
:10:17. > :10:22.money was wasted but the idea isn't wrong. In the second row. I have not
:10:23. > :10:26.decided which way I am voting but from my government I would have
:10:27. > :10:27.expected a balanced view in terms of the pros and cons for either
:10:28. > :10:34.decision. APPLAUSE
:10:35. > :10:42.Anna Soubry, can you answer that. Why doesn't this have pros and cons?
:10:43. > :10:48.It is right that the Government has a view. We have a view on all things
:10:49. > :10:51.and a very strong view on this. Ruth says she wants a trade deal with
:10:52. > :10:56.Europe but cannot give us the detail. That is not the policy of
:10:57. > :11:01.everyone that wants to leave the EU. Douglas' leader does not want us to
:11:02. > :11:07.trade with that single market, 500 million people across the Channel.
:11:08. > :11:11.And it is really important that we understand what do they want, what
:11:12. > :11:14.will it look like, because Chris made a very good point. We disagree
:11:15. > :11:22.on almost everything, nearly everything. We agree on gay issues,
:11:23. > :11:27.for example. Did you just call me darling? I am so sorry. This is
:11:28. > :11:31.important because when we talk about the deal of countries like Norway,
:11:32. > :11:37.they pay the money, get the free movement of Labour and goods, they
:11:38. > :11:40.pay for all of that but they don't sit in Europe making decisions about
:11:41. > :11:52.the future of Europe and how it operates. Irvine Welsh, what is your
:11:53. > :11:59.view of this? In general terms, I have never got too excited about the
:12:00. > :12:02.referendum one way or the other. I think overwhelmingly people feel
:12:03. > :12:07.trapped into a global economic system with all these elite bodies,
:12:08. > :12:13.of which the EU is one, the IMF, the World Bank would be others. Their
:12:14. > :12:21.own governments would be others. To me, it seems to be whether citizens
:12:22. > :12:26.get shafted more easily within or outside the EU, it seems to be two
:12:27. > :12:28.elites arguing about the best way to impose neoliberalism and a debt
:12:29. > :12:36.economy upon the citizens of this country. Do you think it is right to
:12:37. > :12:42.offer the choice in a referendum, or are you saying it is a spurious
:12:43. > :12:46.choice? It is spurious because life goes on very much in the same way.
:12:47. > :12:52.We have seen how the global economy operates to the advantage of very
:12:53. > :12:57.few people and the disadvantage of many. But you can't defend the EU as
:12:58. > :13:01.an institution. You can't defend something that is undemocratic,
:13:02. > :13:07.something that is led by commissioners rather than... If you
:13:08. > :13:11.had a vote... Do you have a vote? I don't. I probably would not bother.
:13:12. > :13:22.If you forced me to vote, I would vote to leave, basically.
:13:23. > :13:29.It will be really interesting to see what the Leave side would do if they
:13:30. > :13:32.had the money. It seems another cheap joke that they can throw to
:13:33. > :13:36.say the Government's doing this, but what can they do, they are getting
:13:37. > :13:38.taxpayers money too, they should use it. They have got enough business
:13:39. > :13:43.interest that they could easily fund it. Douglas? One of the reasons why
:13:44. > :13:47.I think this leaflet is so unfair is precisely because on this one
:13:48. > :13:51.leaflet, the Government will spend ?9.3 million, that is more than the
:13:52. > :13:55.entire budget of the vote Leave campaign. That vote Leave budget has
:13:56. > :13:59.to be raised entirely through doe nations, it's not taxpayers money.
:14:00. > :14:04.By law, we are not allowed to spend more than ?7 million on that. Before
:14:05. > :14:07.the referendum's even formally begun, the other side's had more
:14:08. > :14:10.money on this one leaflet than we'll have through the entire campaign. I
:14:11. > :14:17.think that's unfair. APPLAUSE.
:14:18. > :14:20.The woman on the left? I wish they'd been in business, some of these
:14:21. > :14:23.people, because I traded with Europe right the way through my working
:14:24. > :14:26.life and we didn't have to have these trade agreements you are
:14:27. > :14:30.talking about. You talk nonsense. Frankly none of you have ever had a
:14:31. > :14:34.proper job which is a bit of a problem and if you had, you would
:14:35. > :14:37.understand what I'm saying to be true. If you work for Europe,
:14:38. > :14:39.they'll want to trade with you and they will not turn away good
:14:40. > :14:48.business. CHEERING AND APPLAUSE.
:14:49. > :14:53.So you're not concerned, or you are voting Brexit? I'm voting Brexit
:14:54. > :14:58.everything and I'm going to follow Liam Fox's advice and when they
:14:59. > :15:03.are... Has he had a proper job? He was a doctor at one point. I'm going
:15:04. > :15:06.to post the leaflet back to David Cameron in Number Ten so they can
:15:07. > :15:11.read them themselves. Exactly. We have all got the address.
:15:12. > :15:18.Absolutely. The man with spectacles in the third
:15:19. > :15:22.row from the back? It's really quite ironic, we usually expect our
:15:23. > :15:28.Governments, when they can't, to be able to step up, have a few
:15:29. > :15:33.difficult decisions to take and when it comes to this when they have take
:15:34. > :15:36.an view on what should happen on June 23rd, everybody goes off
:15:37. > :15:41.complaining and I find that very, very strange this. Debate I think is
:15:42. > :15:46.too narrow on the whole. Not just about trade and, by the way, I think
:15:47. > :15:50.we need to focus on geographics a little more. The reason why we trade
:15:51. > :15:54.so much with the European Union is because we are only 20 miles off
:15:55. > :15:57.Calais and we are joined by a tunnel and the reason why we have a trade
:15:58. > :16:01.deficit with the European Union at the moment is because we are very,
:16:02. > :16:06.very unproductive as an economy, we are not producing enough high wage,
:16:07. > :16:14.high skill jobs that we need to compete, but this is more about the
:16:15. > :16:18.economy. This is about how we work with others where a decision that's
:16:19. > :16:23.made over in Shanghai affects our daily lives here. I would prefer to
:16:24. > :16:29.have some influence and a decision, a choice, in how that is arranged,
:16:30. > :16:34.rather than isolate myself, insulate myself, invite these problems along
:16:35. > :16:39.so an extent it will cost far more in the long run to deal with them
:16:40. > :16:47.until we have finally got the message? You? Douglas Carswell, my
:16:48. > :16:52.hero! A man speaks up. I'll tell you what, that ?9.3 million should not
:16:53. > :16:55.be used as a piece of Government propaganda, it should be invested
:16:56. > :17:01.back into the British people. You know, I read a recent statistic,
:17:02. > :17:05.9,000 veterans, what are we doing about them? That ?9.3 million should
:17:06. > :17:10.be going to them. The junior doctors, the NHS, our own people.
:17:11. > :17:13.Not being invested into a piece of propaganda.
:17:14. > :17:18.APPLAUSE. All right. A man who speaks up in
:17:19. > :17:24.the audience too, thank you very much. I think at this stage, we want
:17:25. > :17:30.to take a brief... I know Douglas is very worried there won't be an even
:17:31. > :17:35.playing field. Frankly with the Sun, The Telegraph, the Times and the
:17:36. > :17:40.Mail, daily pumping out fibs and lies about the European Union, it's
:17:41. > :17:45.time we had proper information. I would point out that the owners of
:17:46. > :17:51.the newspapers are not resident in the UK paying tax.
:17:52. > :18:02.Are you sure about that, because I think they could sue you? Where does
:18:03. > :18:06.the owner live... Why did I say that? Where does Rupert Murdoch
:18:07. > :18:14.live? I don't know, darling. America. Fair enough. I'm not going
:18:15. > :18:17.to challenge you ever again! To blame newspapers for holding points
:18:18. > :18:20.of view with which Chris disagrees, surely the fact that the newspapers
:18:21. > :18:30.have those views reflects what the readers think and want. No. No. You
:18:31. > :18:37.know perfectly well it reflects the owners, the proprietor's views, not
:18:38. > :18:40.the views of the British people. APPLAUSE
:18:41. > :18:43.Ruth Lea? That doesn't make sense. I was going to comment on something
:18:44. > :18:47.Anna was saying, she was talking about Norway and you were talking
:18:48. > :18:52.about Switzerland. When we leave, as I hope we will leave, the British
:18:53. > :18:57.Government will negotiate a British settlement for us. It won't be
:18:58. > :19:00.Norwegian or Swiss, but British. Let's not beat around the bush, we
:19:01. > :19:05.have a lot of leverage in the negotiations. The idea that we are
:19:06. > :19:09.going to be some pathetic supplement is absolutely absurd. They need us
:19:10. > :19:14.and we need them and we want to cooperate. My goodness me, we don't
:19:15. > :19:22.need to be in the European Union to be able to do that.
:19:23. > :19:26.APPLAUSE. Ten hands up at the moment, I'll take one point from you
:19:27. > :19:32.because you've got the tallest hand, yes? Oh, thank you.
:19:33. > :19:37.If... No, no, no, you haven't got the tallest hand, you have. Be brief
:19:38. > :19:46.if you probably would. I believe we do want to say the same thing. ?9.3
:19:47. > :19:50.million on a Government pamphlet, not sure of the contents because I
:19:51. > :19:59.believe it's being distributed next week, to put it in context, this
:20:00. > :20:08.country's contributing roughly ?350 million a week to the European Union
:20:09. > :20:14.and what are we getting in return? I voted in the 1975 referendum. I've
:20:15. > :20:18.been pro-European for many years. But in recent years, my mind has
:20:19. > :20:22.changed. I'm going to vote to leave the EU.
:20:23. > :20:26.OK. All right. APPLAUSE.
:20:27. > :20:30.We are going to go on. Thank you very much. The only thing I would
:20:31. > :20:35.say, the Institute for Fiscal Studies who we all reveer, says the
:20:36. > :20:40.actual figure is not ?350 million, but ?154 million when you deduct the
:20:41. > :20:43.benefit that comes. I say that in a disinterested way just to correct
:20:44. > :20:46.the point. But we need to move on to another question because we have a
:20:47. > :20:52.lot more questions to Comptonite and we have already had 20 minutes. If
:20:53. > :20:56.you want to come and take part in this chaos of Question Time during
:20:57. > :21:00.this run-up to the EU, we are going to be in Doncaster next week and we
:21:01. > :21:07.are in Exeter the week after that. So you can apply via the
:21:08. > :21:18.A question from Michael Manuel, please? Can we ever have a just and
:21:19. > :21:23.fair society when it seems that only the little people pay their fair
:21:24. > :21:32.share of taxes? APPLAUSE.
:21:33. > :21:38.So, Panama raises its head. Anna Soubry? Well, there's a statistic
:21:39. > :21:43.which I thought was very interesting. I think it's very
:21:44. > :21:50.important as well. The top 1%, the most wealthy people in our nation,
:21:51. > :21:57.pay 28% of all the taxes that we collect. So whilst I agree with you
:21:58. > :22:01.that obviously there are devices and schemes which actually we have
:22:02. > :22:05.cracked down on, we introduced 40 measures in the last Parliament to
:22:06. > :22:17.close off these loopholes, but it often looks like the rich can escape
:22:18. > :22:20.from paying taxation, taxation. We have got another 25 measures I
:22:21. > :22:25.believe it is for the next Parliament. We are doing all the
:22:26. > :22:30.things we should be doing. The most important thing is that everybody
:22:31. > :22:32.should pay their tax. You are absolutely right, it doesn't matter
:22:33. > :22:39.who they are, everybody should do it. No offshore tax havens, is your
:22:40. > :22:44.view? I think if you live in this country and you earn income and you
:22:45. > :22:49.have money that you accrue, you should pay your taxes. Now, where
:22:50. > :22:52.you choose to invest your money is a matter for you, but when you are
:22:53. > :22:56.earning income and if you sell assets and therefore you have
:22:57. > :23:02.capital gains tax by way of example to pay, those are the things that
:23:03. > :23:05.you should do. That's why, as I say, we have introduced these measures,
:23:06. > :23:10.we are raising billions of pounds, because we are closing off all the
:23:11. > :23:13.Liverpool hopes that have frankly existed for previous years under
:23:14. > :23:18.grieve previous Governments, we are doing that and that is the right
:23:19. > :23:20.thing to do. Chris Bryant? What a load of nonsense that was. I mean
:23:21. > :23:25.really. APPLAUSE. It's absolutely clear,
:23:26. > :23:29.there's one rule for the very, very rich and another rule for the rest
:23:30. > :23:33.of us. We all have to pay our tax through PAYE. Some people get to pay
:23:34. > :23:38.expensive people to find a way around it. We don't know. Anna's
:23:39. > :23:43.completely wrong, we don't actually know how much people are paying, the
:23:44. > :23:49.very wealthy pay on their tax because 8% of the world's wealth is
:23:50. > :24:00.hidden in offshore tax havens. So why didn't you change that? We
:24:01. > :24:05.did... So you undid it... The FT did a close survey of the tax avoidance
:24:06. > :24:08.measures uncovered by Blair, Brown and recent Governments, they found
:24:09. > :24:13.that the Blair Brown Governments done four times as much, they
:24:14. > :24:17.brought in ?100 billion of unpaid tax thus far and in particular what
:24:18. > :24:22.really disturbs me is first of all, that we introduce add very effective
:24:23. > :24:27.measure, the disclosure of tax avoidance schemes measure. We
:24:28. > :24:31.strengthened it at every point since 2004 when we introduced it and the
:24:32. > :24:38.coalition Government in 2010 started watering it down. David Cameron
:24:39. > :24:42.lobbied at the European Union to say that their personal private trusts
:24:43. > :24:46.shouldn't be open to the same transparency rules as for
:24:47. > :24:49.corporations. I disagree with that. We should all be in this together.
:24:50. > :24:56.Chris, under Labour... Come back on this? Under Labour,
:24:57. > :25:00.rich people didn't pay stamp duty. Under Labour, millionaires and
:25:01. > :25:07.billionaires paid less tax than their cleaners were paying. Under
:25:08. > :25:10.previous Labour Governments, we had loophole after loophole propped up
:25:11. > :25:15.by your party that failed to do these things. That's absolutely what
:25:16. > :25:20.we stopped doing, 40 measures raising ?2 billion in extra taxes.
:25:21. > :25:25.We are the ones who cleared up your mess. You said you were going to do
:25:26. > :25:29.that. Now it's clear we are not going to get a quarter of what you
:25:30. > :25:33.said. You said you got rid of the tax havens in the overseas
:25:34. > :25:37.territories. When I was minister, I refused to allow them to continue
:25:38. > :25:40.their tax haven status if they wanted to borrow more money which is
:25:41. > :25:45.what they wanted to do. The moment we lost power in 2010, your
:25:46. > :25:49.Government came in and said, no, you can borrow as much as you want and
:25:50. > :25:52.remain as a tax haven. Do you want to have direct rule in these places,
:25:53. > :26:00.the Virgin Islands, go to war and take them back? I can think of, you
:26:01. > :26:05.know, I can imagine Pitcairn island would love to have Boris as its
:26:06. > :26:10.Governor Nomplt we should consider very, very closely what we do in
:26:11. > :26:18.relation to our overseas territories. We still have a
:26:19. > :26:22.contingent liability where they are trading on the same name. We
:26:23. > :26:28.shouldn't be allowed to continue without transparency. Bermuda, the
:26:29. > :26:35.Turks and chaos, Pitcairn, they are all doing it. I was the last
:26:36. > :26:40.minister in charge who said that to impose direct rule in Turks and
:26:41. > :26:45.Caicos because of the massive corruption there in 2009. The woman
:26:46. > :26:50.second row from the back? Will the Government be challenging the names
:26:51. > :26:58.with the same vigilance as it does benefit claims? Ruth Lea? Benefit
:26:59. > :27:06.claimants get looked at very carefully, will the rich be looked
:27:07. > :27:10.at as carefully? When Anna said the top 1% of taxpayers pay a high
:27:11. > :27:17.proportion of the tax bill, she's right, they are taxpayers. The
:27:18. > :27:20.trouble is that such a lot of them squirrel away their dividends in the
:27:21. > :27:28.Chris havens Chris was talking about. I take your point, I'm not
:27:29. > :27:32.disagreeing with that. I think that you were referring to the gentleman
:27:33. > :27:42.with the original question, thinking about the Panama papers and this
:27:43. > :27:45.curious legal firm called MossackFonseca or whatever it's
:27:46. > :27:50.called, that was dealing with all these people who're obviously
:27:51. > :27:55.dealing with the tax havens, many of which are overseas territories, I
:27:56. > :27:58.think half the dealings that they were dealing with were actually
:27:59. > :28:01.British Virgin Islands which is overseas. But do you think it's
:28:02. > :28:09.right this should be allowed to happen? No. People perfectly legally
:28:10. > :28:12.do that. President Obama said an interesting thing, saying it's legal
:28:13. > :28:16.what's been going on, but that's the problem. I think the problem is
:28:17. > :28:21.because they are secret and there is a lack of transparency it covers the
:28:22. > :28:26.legal which is avoidance or even aggressive tax avoidance which is
:28:27. > :28:29.strictly legal. There is money-laundering, dodging sanctions
:28:30. > :28:34.and the like. This comes back to the point Chris is making, you need
:28:35. > :28:38.absolute transparency in these particular tax havens and then at
:28:39. > :28:40.least you know whether they are legal or whether they are illegal
:28:41. > :29:00.transactions. We need specific new policies to end
:29:01. > :29:07.the division that has come about in our society. The tax returns we all
:29:08. > :29:14.make should be made public, so I can see your tax return, Mr Dimbleby,
:29:15. > :29:17.and you can see mine. This could obtain throughout the whole country
:29:18. > :29:23.and we could look carefully at those who are not paying what appears to
:29:24. > :29:26.be the right tax. It may well be then that we can get in touch with
:29:27. > :29:31.the tax office and say, would you be kind enough to investigate this
:29:32. > :29:39.person because it appears they are paying too little tax. Irvine Welsh,
:29:40. > :29:42.would you like to see that? I think it is inevitable and probably the
:29:43. > :29:51.tip of the iceberg everything that has happened in the last 15 years.
:29:52. > :29:55.It is such a strange thing, when you look at what has actually happened
:29:56. > :29:59.and the response of people involved. The great tragedy for them is that
:30:00. > :30:06.they have been caught. This is the whole problem as far as they are
:30:07. > :30:09.concerned. You can bet every resource will be going into making
:30:10. > :30:15.sure the public do not get that kind of information again that they got
:30:16. > :30:18.in the Panama leaks. This is probably the last we will hear of
:30:19. > :30:22.this for a while but you can bet it will continue to keep going on. Have
:30:23. > :30:28.you ever been tempted to put your money in the Virgin Islands from
:30:29. > :30:34.Chicago? The Virgin Islands is too far away so I would probably go for
:30:35. > :30:40.the Cayman Islands. You have been tempted that way? Not really, no.
:30:41. > :30:48.When I lived in Dublin, writers were exempt from tax. The thing is, it is
:30:49. > :30:54.not about individuals. If the system is set up for greed, encouraging
:30:55. > :30:59.people to act on greedy impulses, human beings are complex, not only
:31:00. > :31:02.about greed, but all sorts of emotions, but if an economic system
:31:03. > :31:08.is setup to be based around greed and avarice, you get these outcomes.
:31:09. > :31:14.Human beings are violent but we do not want war of the time to satisfy
:31:15. > :31:19.that. We have to have some kind of balance, some kind of controls on
:31:20. > :31:25.people's base instincts. Right now we don't have that in the global
:31:26. > :31:32.economic system. Is that why you lived in Dublin, so you couldn't pay
:31:33. > :31:37.taxes? No, I live there because my wife was there. Many writers did
:31:38. > :31:42.move there because it had a special tax regime. I remember saying to
:31:43. > :31:49.Roddy Doyle in a pub, how can you live here and not pay tax? He is
:31:50. > :31:56.born and bred there. The guy who is pulling your pint of Guinness is
:31:57. > :32:03.paying an exorbitant amount. And there I was, when I moved to Dublin.
:32:04. > :32:10.I thought, every other writer is not paying tax, so I should do the same
:32:11. > :32:14.thing. When the system is rigged like that, you are in the position
:32:15. > :32:19.that you are a mug if you don't take advantage. He just laughed in my
:32:20. > :32:25.face and said, now you are here, you will take advantage. He was right
:32:26. > :32:28.because that is the way it operates, but the system should not operate
:32:29. > :32:33.like that, being about somebody deciding who has money deciding if
:32:34. > :32:37.they want to take part in it or not. Somebody deciding to sell their
:32:38. > :32:43.conscience by giving to charity. It is not enough. People should be
:32:44. > :32:50.compelled to pay the correct amount of tax. People are right to feel a
:32:51. > :32:53.sense of anger. The lady at the back said with the government go after
:32:54. > :32:58.people not paying tax the same way as someone fiddling benefit. I was
:32:59. > :33:03.hoping a woman in my constituency today who is being chased by HMRC
:33:04. > :33:09.and bailiffs for their mistake in overpaying her child tax credit. I
:33:10. > :33:13.hope they go after some of those who have not paid their full share of
:33:14. > :33:17.tax in Panama and the British Virgin Islands. The question is what to do
:33:18. > :33:20.about it. Unless we colonise every small island on the planet and
:33:21. > :33:27.impose world governance, we are going to have to recognise that we
:33:28. > :33:32.cannot stamp out tax havens. How do we minimise the damage and minimise
:33:33. > :33:36.the unjust system? First, pushed tax havens to disclose. In fairness to
:33:37. > :33:41.David Gauke, and I don't want to trigger the squabble again, but the
:33:42. > :33:46.current Treasury minister has done good staff in terms of pushing some
:33:47. > :33:49.of these havens. British Virgin Islands now has to report to 29
:33:50. > :33:54.different tax authorities which it did not have to do before. Second,
:33:55. > :34:03.we have to remove the incentive to use a tax haven. We have had four
:34:04. > :34:07.budgets in the past two years. Every time, George Osborne announces his
:34:08. > :34:13.wealthy is going to try and grab. It could be peoples pension pots. It
:34:14. > :34:20.Pastis at one stage. If we had less arbitrary tax and lower tax there
:34:21. > :34:23.would be this incentive. If there is an opportunity of paying no tax,
:34:24. > :34:30.however low the tax is, people will go for that. If you remove the
:34:31. > :34:38.incentive... The incentive is 10% tax, 20%? If you push tax
:34:39. > :34:49.jurisdictions to disclose, I don't think people would be willing to
:34:50. > :34:52.take that risk. You, sir. We used to have an act in 1947 controlling the
:34:53. > :35:02.movement of money. Why don't we bring that back again? Why was it
:35:03. > :35:07.repealed? The Thatcher government repealed it in 1979. Along with a
:35:08. > :35:10.series of other things which deregulated, one of the things that
:35:11. > :35:18.Thatcher bequests to the modern era, they deregulated so much this was an
:35:19. > :35:21.inevitable result. There is an increasing perception that there is
:35:22. > :35:24.a ruling class that is beyond the law. Because they are the ruling
:35:25. > :35:30.class they can preserve things for themselves. I am concerned this
:35:31. > :35:34.country is becoming less democratic, because those in the corridors of
:35:35. > :35:43.power can manage things to ensure the perpetuation. As I said, I don't
:35:44. > :35:45.think we disagree that in the last government we collected an
:35:46. > :35:52.additional ?2 billion of money because we tied up 40 of these loops
:35:53. > :35:57.that enabled people who should have been paying tax not to pay. We have
:35:58. > :36:03.another 25 measures. If you speak to those who have used devices to avoid
:36:04. > :36:07.paying tax, they will tell you how the taxman is now coming after them.
:36:08. > :36:13.We have seen in the last five years ?2 billion of extra money coming in
:36:14. > :36:18.from people who have avoided it. We have a general GT that means these
:36:19. > :36:22.sort of avoidance schemes are no longer allowable. -- a general duty.
:36:23. > :36:27.I don't want to deal with this squabbling but it has to be said
:36:28. > :36:30.that it is a fact that under the last Labour government there were
:36:31. > :36:37.all sorts of schemes that were absolutely promoted in order for
:36:38. > :36:41.people to defer taxation and not pay at the right time. That is a fact.
:36:42. > :36:47.The truth is that the moment you close one loophole or introduce a
:36:48. > :36:50.tax, someone will employ a lawyer somewhere to find a way round it.
:36:51. > :36:57.The proof is that all political parties should get together and
:36:58. > :36:59.agree that we want to put an end to this. David Cameron's example this
:37:00. > :37:05.week has not been brilliant on transparency. It is not just about
:37:06. > :37:12.the tax arrangements but also about knowing who owns what. It is
:37:13. > :37:17.interesting how much the United, the president of the United Arab
:37:18. > :37:21.Emirates opens in London. We only know that because of this
:37:22. > :37:24.revelation. A lot of people in other countries of the world are furious
:37:25. > :37:29.with their leaders who have been stealing money from them, taking it
:37:30. > :37:34.elsewhere, and all political parties in this country should be making
:37:35. > :37:42.sure our embassies overseas are the best example.
:37:43. > :37:48.Coming back to the Prime Minister, do you think he has now explained
:37:49. > :37:52.sufficiently for your purposes his tax affairs, to satisfy you that
:37:53. > :37:59.there has been no wrongdoing and no tax avoidance on his part? It has
:38:00. > :38:04.been classic Cameron. It has had to be dragged out of him by wild
:38:05. > :38:07.horses. Remember when he said he had never gone riding with Rebekah
:38:08. > :38:11.Brooks, and then, maybe he had done but he could not remember if she was
:38:12. > :38:14.there, and in the end he could remember and even remembered the
:38:15. > :38:19.name of the horse. That is exactly what we had this week. Of course I
:38:20. > :38:21.am not satisfied and I don't suppose a single person in the country is
:38:22. > :38:24.satisfied. APPLAUSE
:38:25. > :38:30.At the beginning of the week he said was a personal matter, then he said
:38:31. > :38:33.he was not benefiting at all, then he said he and his family were not
:38:34. > :38:38.benefiting, and then he said they would not benefiting future, but
:38:39. > :38:38.forgot to mention that they had been benefiting in the past.
:38:39. > :38:45.APPLAUSE Why didn't he own up at the
:38:46. > :38:52.beginning if he hasn't done anything wrong? Can we just establish
:38:53. > :38:56.something. The Blair more holdings, and forgive me, David, I think you
:38:57. > :39:00.were putting that into the same category as tax avoidance schemes
:39:01. > :39:04.and offshore dealings. That was actually an investment fast,
:39:05. > :39:08.perfectly legitimate, Robert Peston and others have written about the
:39:09. > :39:18.legitimacy of it. In 2006 it actually produced a brochure so
:39:19. > :39:24.investors could invest in it. You paid tax and capital gains tax. That
:39:25. > :39:27.is exactly what David Cameron did. In 2010, when he became Prime
:39:28. > :39:33.Minister, you got rid of his holdings in it. He paid the capital
:39:34. > :39:37.gains tax on that. He has not done anything wrong. Hang on, you are
:39:38. > :39:43.interrupting. It is very important, if you are talking about tax
:39:44. > :39:47.avoidance. We can have a debate about that, but this is not a tax
:39:48. > :39:52.avoidance scheme. It is an investment trust, open, honest and
:39:53. > :40:00.write unlawful. There was a big distinction between that and tax
:40:01. > :40:09.avoidance. He did it just before the election. I will tell you why. This
:40:10. > :40:14.was not someone who did something wrong and was getting rid of it
:40:15. > :40:18.because there was nothing illegal, morally or legally about investing
:40:19. > :40:23.in this trust. So why didn't he say so on Monday. He got rid of
:40:24. > :40:26.everything when he became Prime Minister and now he is saying he
:40:27. > :40:31.will publish his tax return and other party leaders should do the
:40:32. > :40:35.same. Do you want to answer the point that it took him a week to get
:40:36. > :40:39.to the point of saying in the future his family would not benefit, so in
:40:40. > :40:44.the past maybe they had by implication. To be honest,
:40:45. > :40:50.understandably the spotlight was put on his late father. He was dragged
:40:51. > :40:54.into it and there were slurs made against him. I have to say, if it
:40:55. > :40:59.had been my father I think I would have called back and frankly not
:41:00. > :41:07.wanted to talk about any of it because I would have found it
:41:08. > :41:10.hurtful. I had no interest in Ed Miliband's father either. I was much
:41:11. > :41:15.more interested in Ed Miliband and I am more interested in David and who
:41:16. > :41:24.they are and what they stand for today, not about their parents. I
:41:25. > :41:28.promised I would union. One of the reasons the little man pays is that
:41:29. > :41:33.David Cameron was asked in April 2012 to publish his tax returns and
:41:34. > :41:37.he still hasn't. We have a Chancellor who can stand proudly. We
:41:38. > :41:43.have Google who pay more tax in France, get more money in Britain.
:41:44. > :41:47.It doesn't add up. We have disabled people losing ?30 a week. If
:41:48. > :41:50.anything, it is because of the current Government. Until he can
:41:51. > :41:54.publish a Budget which holds everyone, not just the top 10%,
:41:55. > :42:04.nothing will change nothing will work. We only have a quarter of an
:42:05. > :42:10.hour left and I want to go on to this next topic, a question from
:42:11. > :42:14.Caroline Jones. Hello. The microphone is over your head. Should
:42:15. > :42:26.the Government nationalise the British steel industry? Chris
:42:27. > :42:32.Bryant. Not necessarily as its first step, but it might need to keep that
:42:33. > :42:36.as a possibility on the table. I represent a seat in south Wales
:42:37. > :42:43.which used to have a single industry that dominated. It was cold in my
:42:44. > :42:50.case. I drive past Port Talbot frequently and I have constituents
:42:51. > :42:53.who work in the still works there. -- the steelworks. For those of you
:42:54. > :42:58.who think we should not bail out steel, think hard about this. There
:42:59. > :43:04.are presently people paying taxes who would then be in receipt of
:43:05. > :43:06.benefits. If we can afford to bail out the banks, we can afford to bail
:43:07. > :43:12.out steel. APPLAUSE
:43:13. > :43:18.I don't want us to suddenly go back to the 1940s and say we will
:43:19. > :43:23.nationalise steel and keep it forever in state control. Government
:43:24. > :43:28.ministers are not particularly good at running businesses. But I think
:43:29. > :43:32.it was wrong of the Government to take this off the table. I also
:43:33. > :43:38.think, to be honest, that Sajid Javid, when he seems to suggest this
:43:39. > :43:41.came as a surprise to him, if he had sat in Prime Minister's Questions
:43:42. > :43:45.the week before when Stephen Kinnock, who has done a very good
:43:46. > :43:50.job in representing his constituents, said to the Prime
:43:51. > :43:52.Minister, next week there will be a decision in Mumbai where they will
:43:53. > :43:58.decide on the future of the steelworks in my constituency, he
:43:59. > :43:59.could have heard that and then he might have gone to Mumbai instead of
:44:00. > :44:07.Australia. Back to Caroline Jones' question.
:44:08. > :44:11.Should the Government nationalise it. You seemed to say yes, possibly?
:44:12. > :44:15.I don't think we should take it off the table which is what the
:44:16. > :44:18.Government are saying. We need to do a proper due diligence, get all the
:44:19. > :44:23.facts and figures in relation to the business together. Secondly, we
:44:24. > :44:28.should stop bowing to China. I'm sick and tired of all this business
:44:29. > :44:31.trying to get market status economy for China when they have been
:44:32. > :44:35.dumping steel at way less than it costs to produce and taking people
:44:36. > :44:38.out of jobs in this country and incidentally that's another reason
:44:39. > :44:42.for me why we should stay in the EU because I think we only stand up to
:44:43. > :44:45.China if we are alongside our colleagues in the European Union. I
:44:46. > :44:49.think the Government will have to put some money on the table. I'm
:44:50. > :44:53.very proud of Carwyn Jones, the leader in the Welsh Assembly,
:44:54. > :44:56.because he's already put ?60 million on the table from the Welsh
:44:57. > :45:02.Assembly. That's a large amount of money. What do you say to what Anna
:45:03. > :45:07.Soubry sitting on my right said, which is that nationalisation is an
:45:08. > :45:11.option. She said, I make clear we should look at all options. I like a
:45:12. > :45:15.lot of the things Anna says on this subject. The trouble is, actually
:45:16. > :45:20.the implementation of them. I don't understand why the Government was
:45:21. > :45:23.campaigning against tariffs in the European Union that other
:45:24. > :45:27.countries... That's not true. That's not true. I don't know why on 29th
:45:28. > :45:31.February Anna voted against a motion in the House of Commons and Douglas
:45:32. > :45:34.didn't even bother to turn up. You lose people by this kind of thing.
:45:35. > :45:39.Let's just deal with the question of steel and the future of the steel
:45:40. > :45:43.industry. Because we have made it very, very clear that steel is a
:45:44. > :45:46.vital industry and we'll not leave any stone unturned in our absolute
:45:47. > :45:50.determination to do everything we can, not just to keep rolling it,
:45:51. > :45:54.milling it and producing it but actually making steel and notably
:45:55. > :45:58.both at Scunthorpe and Port Talbot. I'll put my hands up and say that
:45:59. > :46:01.there's a lot of stuff that perhaps we haven't talked about that we
:46:02. > :46:05.should talk about and I can't talk about everything, but I want to make
:46:06. > :46:11.some points absolutely clear. First of all, we've been looking - I mean
:46:12. > :46:15.a proper, hard, long look since October - led by Oliver Letwin, a
:46:16. > :46:20.group of ministers including myself, at how we can first of all secure
:46:21. > :46:24.the making of steel at Scunthorpe and then in more recent times long
:46:25. > :46:31.before last week, how we can make sure we continue to make steel blast
:46:32. > :46:35.steel in Port Talbot. That work's been going on. I can't talk about
:46:36. > :46:38.the detail of it because as you will understand, a lot of this is
:46:39. > :46:42.incredibly commercially sensitive. So what happened back in September
:46:43. > :46:46.was that we had a steel summit and the industry and the unions - and I
:46:47. > :46:49.want to say something about the Trade Unions that represent
:46:50. > :46:53.steelworkers - brilliant, skilled remarkable men as they usually are
:46:54. > :46:58.and a few women as well. The Trade Unions throughout all of this have
:46:59. > :47:01.been outstanding and I want to pay tribute in particular to the
:47:02. > :47:05.communities Trade Union and their remarkable leader. So we've all
:47:06. > :47:08.worked together. The industry quite rightly said, we've got five asks
:47:09. > :47:11.because we want a level playing field, some of which Chris has
:47:12. > :47:16.identified, like tariffs, for example. We've delivered on four of
:47:17. > :47:21.the five asks. The only thing we've not delivered on is sorting out
:47:22. > :47:25.rates. Hopefully we might get there. When it comes to tariffs, I can tell
:47:26. > :47:29.you I was the minister who, in the face of the advice from my officials
:47:30. > :47:36.that we should vote against them, I said no, we will vote in favour of
:47:37. > :47:39.tariffs on steel products, wire and then rebar and a number of other
:47:40. > :47:42.products we have done in conjunction with the European Union. I agree
:47:43. > :47:48.with Chris, we are better off in the EU. Including tariffs on Chinese
:47:49. > :47:54.steel? Well, yes. It was opposed? No, this is not true! We voted in
:47:55. > :47:58.favour. In fact, such was the shock in the EU commissioners that were
:47:59. > :48:02.sitting there, they went back to the UK delegation to check the vote so
:48:03. > :48:07.we have done it twice, we did it in July and in November. As a result of
:48:08. > :48:13.that, the imports, for example, of rebar, have now plummeted to 90%, so
:48:14. > :48:17.this dumped steel, notably from China but from other countries as
:48:18. > :48:21.well, is already reducing because of the action that we've taken in
:48:22. > :48:24.conjunctionion with other countries, that is what we are doing and we'll
:48:25. > :48:29.continue because we are determined that this country will carry on
:48:30. > :48:30.making steel in our brilliant steelworks with those excellent
:48:31. > :48:36.workers. Ruth Lea? The steel industry is
:48:37. > :48:39.really in difficulty and I'm very surprised to hear Anna talk about
:48:40. > :48:43.tariffs in that particular way because my understanding was that
:48:44. > :48:50.the European Union wanted to bring tariffs in at about 45%, or up to
:48:51. > :48:56.that. The UK were one of those countries that blocked it. I'm
:48:57. > :49:00.afraid that's not true. I read that. I'm the minister responsible and I
:49:01. > :49:07.promise you we've been arguing in favour of higher after the rifles on
:49:08. > :49:11.some steel. Sorry was but I am the minister, I know the vote and I know
:49:12. > :49:17.what we've done, Ruth. I think you are talking about the lesser duty
:49:18. > :49:24.rule. All right. Ruth Lea? Am I allowed to continue? Sorry. Because
:49:25. > :49:26.I actually read that in a business committee report and it was a
:49:27. > :49:30.business committee report that came out at the end of last year so
:49:31. > :49:34.perhaps the report was wrong, but that's where I actually saw it. It
:49:35. > :49:41.was on the Government response to the steel crisis. But putting that
:49:42. > :49:44.aside about the tariffs, there is no doubt that China is selling very,
:49:45. > :49:48.very cheap steel at the moment and it was exacerbated by the strong
:49:49. > :49:52.value of the pound, so the real steel industry had this enormous
:49:53. > :49:58.competitive disadvantage against the Chinese. Out of which of course they
:49:59. > :50:01.do have extra expenses the Chinese don't or other countries indeed many
:50:02. > :50:05.the European Union don't in the sense that energy costs are so much
:50:06. > :50:09.higher here. Can I drag you back to the question which was about
:50:10. > :50:13.nationalisation? Well, this was recognised by the Government some
:50:14. > :50:17.time ago that, they took their time in actually bringing these energy
:50:18. > :50:22.packages in. But the problem is, we are where we are and the steel
:50:23. > :50:26.industry have got all these problems and the question really has to be
:50:27. > :50:30.now, how much of the steel industry is going to be realistically
:50:31. > :50:36.economically viable. Let's see if the Government can get somebody to
:50:37. > :50:39.buy Port Talbot? I think it's true that the steel plants in Scotland
:50:40. > :50:43.have been sold and there is another buyer who will buy Scunthorpe. But
:50:44. > :50:49.the big one of course is Port Talbot. Let's just see if they can
:50:50. > :50:53.actually sell that. They'll have to provide sweeteners, no doubt about
:50:54. > :50:57.that. You are talking about help on energy and pensions and probably
:50:58. > :51:03.help on environmental liabilities. But let's hope they can find
:51:04. > :51:06.something. The person on the front? Why has the British Government left
:51:07. > :51:10.it so long to intervene within the steel market if you have known
:51:11. > :51:13.there's been a crisis for so long, why have you not intervened with
:51:14. > :51:22.Tata Steel before? Why is it that you are only doing it now? Is that a
:51:23. > :51:25.criticism you would make? I think the Government's been on the back
:51:26. > :51:29.foot on this. Let me be clear, I wouldn't support the nationalisation
:51:30. > :51:34.of steel for the same reasons I opposed every bail out of the banks.
:51:35. > :51:41.I don't think putting people like politicians in charge of an industry
:51:42. > :51:45.is going to make it any better. There are three reasons why I think
:51:46. > :51:48.steel production in this country is in the sorry state that it is and
:51:49. > :51:51.three big failures on the part of the Government. Port Talbot makes
:51:52. > :51:55.good steel, it's a world class product. But there are three things
:51:56. > :52:01.that make it virtually impossible for them to earn an honest living by
:52:02. > :52:03.producing what they produce. It's a very energy intensive industry and
:52:04. > :52:07.being in the European Union means the energy costs of producing steel
:52:08. > :52:11.in Port Talbot make it almost impossible to do so competitively. I
:52:12. > :52:15.think we need to leave the European Union and reduce the cost of energy
:52:16. > :52:20.on our industry. That would have an impact.
:52:21. > :52:24.APPLAUSE Secondly, China has imposed I think
:52:25. > :52:28.I am right in saying a 46% tariff on steel. Now, when the Chinese
:52:29. > :52:32.President visited this country, George Osborne was very, very keen
:52:33. > :52:36.to get them to sign up to a nuclear deal which incidentally adds to the
:52:37. > :52:40.cost of our energy. I wonder if he used what clout we might have to
:52:41. > :52:46.negotiate and force China to be reasonable. I think perhaps because
:52:47. > :52:49.we are so fixated with trying to get Chinese investment in the nuclear
:52:50. > :52:54.sector, we are not using the leverage we have. The ?2 billion
:52:55. > :53:00.pension liability hasn't been discussed for Port Talbot, the price
:53:01. > :53:06.we pay of having... A bit more than 2? The pension deficit, the unfunded
:53:07. > :53:11.liability is ?2 billion I think I am right in saying. If you look at what
:53:12. > :53:17.successive Governments under first of all Gordon Brown and now George
:53:18. > :53:20.Osborne have done, they have introduced rates to virtually zero.
:53:21. > :53:24.We discover pension funds haven't been able to keep up with their
:53:25. > :53:27.future liabilities. We are starting to see the in Port Talbot a huge
:53:28. > :53:33.pension liability and this is the price we pay of having a Chancellor
:53:34. > :53:39.who believes that low interest rates alone can have an impact, it's the
:53:40. > :53:44.price we pay for Os-Brown economics. You, there? As regards the pensions,
:53:45. > :53:49.that was because the legislation was changed about what pension companies
:53:50. > :53:53.could own. Most Canadian teachers pensions own high speed railway, the
:53:54. > :53:59.Canadian teachers pension own huge assets in the UK. Sorry, let's stick
:54:00. > :54:03.to steel and Port Talbot? The point made about the energy cost if we
:54:04. > :54:07.pull out of the EU, then the energy cost would go down. We can't produce
:54:08. > :54:16.enough energy for what we news now, we buy most of it from Europe, via a
:54:17. > :54:19.big pipe. You, in the blue shirt? About slamming the stable door after
:54:20. > :54:23.the horse has bolted but what about the rest of the UK manufacturer. We
:54:24. > :54:28.have a major stills shortage so how are we encouraging people to study
:54:29. > :54:34.science, technology, engineering and mathses? -- maths. Caroline Jones
:54:35. > :54:44.who asked the question. What do you think? I agree with Ruth Lea about
:54:45. > :54:49.the EU. I've heard there is a 9% tariff on the steel that's imported
:54:50. > :54:55.from China. America imposes a tariff of 244%.
:54:56. > :54:58.The point is whether or not you get the right effect and the effect is
:54:59. > :55:07.that we have seen, for example, on rebar, we have seen a reduction...
:55:08. > :55:11.You will have to explain that? Reinforced bar, you can see it in
:55:12. > :55:17.concrete and it's made in Cardiff. The point is, when we put the
:55:18. > :55:21.tariffs on, we saw a reduction of 99% of steel. On energy prices we
:55:22. > :55:27.are paying out tens of millions in compensation back. So from 2017,
:55:28. > :55:31.we'll exempt all our energy intensive industries from two of the
:55:32. > :55:36.three green taxes that have undoubtedly taken the action. The
:55:37. > :55:42.Government are considering nationalising steel. It's nonsense.
:55:43. > :55:47.Absolute nonsense. It's a very different thing with the banks. I
:55:48. > :55:53.mean, the banks, you know, the banks is part of the ecosystem of
:55:54. > :56:00.exploitation and it's based on debt, it's like the Government's
:56:01. > :56:04.controlled citizens through international money. The banks were
:56:05. > :56:09.too big to fail. The steelworkers for all this rhetoric about how
:56:10. > :56:16.normal and fine they are, all that patronising stuff, they don't give a
:56:17. > :56:23.toss. It's not draw actually. It is actually, do something about it.
:56:24. > :56:27.So you are saying that I think... I think it's a big test for Labour in
:56:28. > :56:33.terms of their credentials. They have to show how serious they are.
:56:34. > :56:39.Basically it's like, if the Government nationalised the steel,
:56:40. > :56:42.it's basically the beginning of the end of the neo-liberal project, it
:56:43. > :56:48.can't be allowed to happen under this Government. It's a big test for
:56:49. > :56:52.Labour and Corbyn. Will they have the gumption to do something like
:56:53. > :56:57.that. We don't want old-fashioned nationalisation. Surely the most
:56:58. > :57:03.important thing is to stabilise the company now, get enough time to be
:57:04. > :57:08.able to get a proper package in and I say one thing to Anna, I was
:57:09. > :57:12.delighted what you said about Trade Unions, I just wish you would now
:57:13. > :57:22.withdraw the Trade Union bill which is attacking Trade Unions. You
:57:23. > :57:26.always have to make a tribal point. Tribalism in Westminster politics
:57:27. > :57:31.and between your party and his is something we are quite used to on
:57:32. > :57:33.this programme. It does however sadly bring us to
:57:34. > :57:42.tend of this programme because our time's up. We have to stop now. We
:57:43. > :57:44.are going to be in Doncaster next week With David Davis, the
:57:45. > :57:50.Conservative backbencher among those on the panel. The week after that,
:57:51. > :57:54.we are in Exeter. So Doncaster and Exeter. If you want to join the
:57:55. > :57:58.audience, you can apply at the website address there or call the
:57:59. > :58:05.number on the screen. If you have been listening or are
:58:06. > :58:09.listening on Five Live, the debate goes on on Question Time extra time.
:58:10. > :58:12.Thanks to the panel, to all the audience members. Until next
:58:13. > :58:14.Thursday, good night.