:00:07. > :00:18.Tonight, we are in Doncaster. And this is Question Time.
:00:19. > :00:23.Good evening and welcome, whether you are watching on television,
:00:24. > :00:26.listening on the radio, to our audience and our panel. The
:00:27. > :00:30.Conservative member of the European Parliament, one of the leading
:00:31. > :00:35.lights of the campaign to leave the EU, Daniel Hannan. Labour's Shadow
:00:36. > :00:40.Work and Pensions Secretary, Owen Smith. The leader of the SNP at
:00:41. > :00:45.Westminster, Angus Robertson. The Green Party's only member in the
:00:46. > :00:46.House of Lords, Jenny Jones. And from the TaxPayers' Alliance, Dia
:00:47. > :00:55.Chakravarty. Before our first question,
:00:56. > :00:56.don't forget Facebook, text or Twitter to comment
:00:57. > :01:16.on what's said here. Lets have our first question from
:01:17. > :01:20.Jason Leeson, please. On a scale of one to ten, how genuine is is Jeremy
:01:21. > :01:30.Corbyn's new-found support of the EU? Daniel Hannan. About two. The
:01:31. > :01:34.guy has made a career out of not changing his mind and now for
:01:35. > :01:39.political reasons he has to find a way of justifying switching to a
:01:40. > :01:44.pro-EU position. And let's just think through the logic of what he
:01:45. > :01:49.said today. He said, I'm in favour of the EU, but not this EU. I want a
:01:50. > :01:54.completely different one, a social Europe with democracy and workers'
:01:55. > :01:58.rights. Great, but that is not the one on the ballot paper. If the
:01:59. > :02:03.Prime Minister's renegotiation taught us one thing, it is how
:02:04. > :02:10.immune to reform Tom Howe intractable the European Union is.
:02:11. > :02:13.Its second largest net contributor was about to vote on whether to
:02:14. > :02:17.leave and it could not bring itself to make any changes. So the idea
:02:18. > :02:22.that we will stick around and it will suddenly reform, we have had 40
:02:23. > :02:27.years of Brussels becoming more remote, more corrupt, less
:02:28. > :02:31.democratic. What, in that record, makes us think that if we stick with
:02:32. > :02:32.it a little bit longer it will suddenly become more congenial?
:02:33. > :02:48.APPLAUSE Owen Smith. I would say it was about
:02:49. > :02:55.a seven. Only seven? Yes, because he reflects the country on this,
:02:56. > :02:59.Jeremy. He said today that he has made his mind up, and I think the
:03:00. > :03:03.country is making its mind up. That is the point I'm trying to get
:03:04. > :03:08.across, that Jeremy is someone who used to be opposed to the EU,
:03:09. > :03:10.clearly voting against it in the 1970s, thought it was problematic
:03:11. > :03:16.when he was on the backbenches of the Labour Party. And in the last
:03:17. > :03:20.few years, perhaps even the last few weeks, he has come to a different
:03:21. > :03:25.view, a view which is now I think united with the Labour movement. We
:03:26. > :03:29.now feel collectively that we should stay within the European Union. The
:03:30. > :03:33.reason he has come to that view, perhaps it is not a ten, but the
:03:34. > :03:37.reason he has come to that seven is because he things the jobs and
:03:38. > :03:41.security we need in this country, the challengers to be met by this
:03:42. > :03:47.country, whether tax avoidance or security for people, are best met by
:03:48. > :03:51.us sticking together. That is at the heart of the Labour Party's core
:03:52. > :03:56.beliefs, that we are stronger when we stick together. That is why he
:03:57. > :03:59.has come, perhaps, on a journey. I think a lot of people in the country
:04:00. > :04:04.are on that journey and I hope they get to the same place. What is
:04:05. > :04:07.curious is when he was running for the leadership and was asked if he
:04:08. > :04:12.would vote to leave he said, I would not rule out voting to leave. I
:04:13. > :04:17.wonder whether it was Cameron's success in negotiating that finally
:04:18. > :04:21.persuaded him. I don't think David Cameron persuades Jeremy Corbyn of
:04:22. > :04:27.very much. Nothing else has changed in the year since he said he would
:04:28. > :04:30.think of voting out. I have talked with him about this on several
:04:31. > :04:34.occasions in the last few weeks and I genuinely think, like many of us
:04:35. > :04:37.coming he has thought hard about whether we should be in or out and
:04:38. > :04:42.has decided on balance that we should be in. I think that is a
:04:43. > :04:47.reasonable, sensible view and I think lots of people will make
:04:48. > :04:53.exactly the same choice. Do you think he might be up to ten out of
:04:54. > :04:57.ten by the referendum? With a bit of luck. Jenny Jones, the Green Party
:04:58. > :05:04.are all in favour of staying in, aren't they? Well, the parties in
:05:05. > :05:08.favour of staying in the EU. Personally, I am a rebel and I am
:05:09. > :05:15.voting out. APPLAUSE
:05:16. > :05:21.The Green Party's analysis of the EU is that it is a badly flawed
:05:22. > :05:26.organisation but it is better to stay in and try to reform it because
:05:27. > :05:31.it does good at various levels. My personal view is that I agree with
:05:32. > :05:35.the analysis, but it is unreformable. I regret that, because
:05:36. > :05:40.I can see the value in many of the things the EU does. But at the same
:05:41. > :05:44.time, for example they are doing fantastic things on air quality,
:05:45. > :05:47.pressurising governments to clean up their act, to make sure we can
:05:48. > :05:52.breathe our air, which is filthy in many cities. But at the same time it
:05:53. > :05:56.is the EU's fault, because of corporate lobbying by various car
:05:57. > :06:02.companies, that we took up so strongly with diesel and started
:06:03. > :06:08.polluting towns and cities. So, with Daniel Hannan, you believe it is
:06:09. > :06:15.unreformable. Dan and I are as one. Where do you stand, on the top left?
:06:16. > :06:19.I agree with Jeremy, obviously. He properly takes the view that I do
:06:20. > :06:24.that EU does have warts, and we know about them, but is it the right time
:06:25. > :06:25.to come out, with the world being so unstable at the moment?
:06:26. > :06:33.APPLAUSE Jenny, I did not ask, the question
:06:34. > :06:41.was how genuine is Jeremy Corbyn's support. What is your answer? Two or
:06:42. > :06:43.three at best. I feel deeply sorry for Jeremy because he seems to be
:06:44. > :06:47.fitting into some sort of straitjacket within the Labour
:06:48. > :06:52.Party. I have always said there is a place in the Green Party for him. We
:06:53. > :06:56.have better social policies than the Labour Party these days and all the
:06:57. > :07:03.green policies as well. I think Jeremy would fit in better with us.
:07:04. > :07:08.What I wanted to ask was, do the panel actually feel that this is
:07:09. > :07:11.really, the position on Europe, is really about ideology, this
:07:12. > :07:16.referendum? What concerns me is that we are getting smoke and mirrors
:07:17. > :07:22.politics about the choices, and not a clear debate. That is what
:07:23. > :07:28.concerns me. In what way? At issue, what is it that concerns you? David
:07:29. > :07:32.Cameron has issued contradictory statements on the European Union and
:07:33. > :07:38.I feel that confuses people, when he is saying now that he wants to stay
:07:39. > :07:44.in. Angus Robertson, this is getting like Strictly. One out of ten. You
:07:45. > :07:48.can give your answer first. In Scotland we went through a
:07:49. > :07:53.referendum process in 2014 so we have insight into how they happen.
:07:54. > :07:58.One of the things that concerns me greatly is the extent to which, and
:07:59. > :08:03.we are hearing it already, the personalisation of some of this.
:08:04. > :08:07.Secondly, that the nature of some of the arguments are so unbelievably
:08:08. > :08:12.aimed at scaring people. APPLAUSE
:08:13. > :08:19.People in Scotland were not stupid, people in Doncaster and the rest of
:08:20. > :08:23.the UK are not stupid either. I am pro-European. I wish Scotland and
:08:24. > :08:26.the UK to remain within the European Union, but I would wish people to
:08:27. > :08:32.make that decision to vote within the U -- to vote to remain within
:08:33. > :08:36.the EU on the basis of confidence, positive arguments of why it is good
:08:37. > :08:41.to be part of a large single market. I agree with Jeremy Corbyn, it is
:08:42. > :08:44.not just an argument about a single market, but about workers' rights,
:08:45. > :08:51.social rights, environmental progress. I know this argument is
:08:52. > :08:55.lost sometimes, because it is about jobs and numbers and it is
:08:56. > :09:00.confusing. Let Arsenal to forget how this came about, which is that we in
:09:01. > :09:06.Europe had been unable to keep the peace between us for more than any
:09:07. > :09:09.number of decades. After the Second World War, France and Germany and
:09:10. > :09:13.then sometime later the UK got together and said, for all the
:09:14. > :09:16.imperfections, for all the things that don't work well, and by
:09:17. > :09:20.goodness there are a lot of things that need to be reformed and
:09:21. > :09:24.improved, but we are far better working together as sovereign
:09:25. > :09:27.states, and I would wish Scotland to be a sovereign state within the EU
:09:28. > :09:32.at the top table two, but we are better working together in that
:09:33. > :09:39.context. So it is not about Jeremy Corbyn and how persuaded I am. Am I
:09:40. > :09:43.persuaded by his change? No, I don't find it tremendously persuasive, but
:09:44. > :09:46.I do find the argument strong. So I am not going to second-guess the
:09:47. > :09:49.motivation. APPLAUSE
:09:50. > :09:57.On one out of ten, how genuine is is support for the EU? You see him week
:09:58. > :10:01.after week, what do you think? I do think I have heard him ask a single
:10:02. > :10:06.question about the European Union in the House of Commons since he became
:10:07. > :10:09.leader of the Labour Party. If the European Union were an association
:10:10. > :10:12.of sovereign states, no one would be against it and we would not be
:10:13. > :10:15.having this referendum. Everyone is in favour of cooperating with
:10:16. > :10:22.friends and allies. You would have to be insane to be against that. The
:10:23. > :10:26.problem is that it has become remote, self-serving and corrupt.
:10:27. > :10:31.And Angus is right, the arguments, the scare stories that it is the
:10:32. > :10:37.only guarantee of equal pay, we had equal pay in an act in 1970 before
:10:38. > :10:41.we joined. We had paid holidays introduced by Chamberlain in 1938.
:10:42. > :10:43.The idea that we owe all of these things to Jean-Claude Juncker,
:10:44. > :10:53.people know when they are being taken for. Dia Chakravarty, one to
:10:54. > :10:57.ten, how genuine? Before I say anything I should make clear that
:10:58. > :10:59.the TaxPayers' Alliance as an organisation of nearly 80,000
:11:00. > :11:04.supporters across the country, we don't take a position on this. We
:11:05. > :11:09.have supporters in both camps, and staff members in both camps. Having
:11:10. > :11:16.said that, I am going to give you two answers on these numbers, David.
:11:17. > :11:20.I apologise in advance. As a person, Jeremy Corbyn is a one, which is
:11:21. > :11:24.about where I stand. As Labour leader, he is probably about seven.
:11:25. > :11:29.He said today that the Labour Party was overwhelmingly in favour of
:11:30. > :11:34.staying within the EU, which I imagine is, I can understand that.
:11:35. > :11:38.And the reason why I think he agrees with me as a human being and he is
:11:39. > :11:43.at one, this is where I disagree with the lady at the back, where you
:11:44. > :11:46.claimed Jeremy shares your views. I think he shares my views for
:11:47. > :11:54.precisely the same reasons, which are as follows. I think that the EU
:11:55. > :11:59.is an unaccountable body. Most people have no idea who their MEP
:12:00. > :12:03.is. If you do not know who your MEP is, how are you going to hold them
:12:04. > :12:07.to account? Working at Westminster, I know how difficult it is to hold
:12:08. > :12:16.MPs to account, and this is another step removed. Secondly, it is a very
:12:17. > :12:28.wasteful body. We pay our MPs... I am so sorry, this is not a personal
:12:29. > :12:36.attack. Usain nobody knows who their MEP is. -- she says. The Sun had
:12:37. > :12:41.eight photographs years ago and they said, can you identify your MEP. If
:12:42. > :12:45.we were invisible, you would have got 12.5% picking the right one by
:12:46. > :12:51.the law of averages, but it was less than that. So we have a negative
:12:52. > :12:53.visibility, antimatter. Nobody feels European in the same sense that they
:12:54. > :12:54.feel Swedish, Portuguese or whatever.
:12:55. > :13:03.APPLAUSE If the EU had developed without
:13:04. > :13:08.people like you as MEPs, saving all that money and it had just been the
:13:09. > :13:12.governments of the countries, would it be better? Yes, if it were an
:13:13. > :13:16.intergovernmental association that did not presume to legislate for
:13:17. > :13:19.member states, that did not have a legal system that can strike down
:13:20. > :13:23.legislation of member states, then we would all be in favour of that.
:13:24. > :13:28.No one is proposing that the alternative to the EU is not talking
:13:29. > :13:31.to our friends and allies. We want the right to live under our own laws
:13:32. > :13:32.while trading with our friends around the world.
:13:33. > :13:42.APPLAUSE The third point that bothers me is
:13:43. > :13:47.that from outside the EU it looks very much like a cartel of rich
:13:48. > :13:51.countries that keep all the poorer developing countries outside the
:13:52. > :13:56.trade block. And that bugs me. That is done in my name. I don't like
:13:57. > :14:00.that and I don't know who to complain to. So it is a very
:14:01. > :14:03.problematic situation for me. For that reason, and I think Jeremy
:14:04. > :14:08.Corbyn would agree with those reasons, I cannot see myself voting
:14:09. > :14:17.in. The woman on the gangway. I think if we do leave the EU, in
:14:18. > :14:20.spite of all the glorious things which Daniel Hannan thinks will
:14:21. > :14:24.happen, it will be just like animal farm. Something equally hideous will
:14:25. > :14:29.arise with several heads, costing twice as much again, but with the
:14:30. > :14:33.added disadvantage that we will have hacked off all our good friends and
:14:34. > :14:34.neighbours in Europe by saying, we will be your friend but under our
:14:35. > :14:44.terms and conditions. First of all, I feel British and
:14:45. > :14:45.European. I feel very at home in Europe.
:14:46. > :14:50.APPLAUSE APPLAUSE
:14:51. > :14:55.We can be fed a load of rubbish by the media for 20 years. The quote
:14:56. > :15:01.from Rupert Murdoch saying he wants to leave the EU because in Downing
:15:02. > :15:09.Street he gets listened to and in Brussels he gets ignored is telling
:15:10. > :15:13.why the Sun are against the EU. If he gets listened to in Number Ten,
:15:14. > :15:17.why is the Prime Minister staying in, not voting for Brexit? He still
:15:18. > :15:22.gets listened to by David Cameron on a lot of other things. The man on
:15:23. > :15:27.the right, I don't know if you are friends and agree with each other?
:15:28. > :15:31.What I was going to say was, Owen's stated that the Labour Party has a
:15:32. > :15:36.united position that it's pro-European, but how come there's
:15:37. > :15:42.been a lack of cross party support. As a 17-year-old that can't vote in
:15:43. > :15:46.the upcoming referendum, I find it absolutely insulting that to support
:15:47. > :15:52.the in-campaign in such a divided form that it is, that compared to
:15:53. > :15:56.the out-campaign is a shame on all that support Europe. It's simple. We
:15:57. > :16:03.are making a specific case for Labour being in Europe. The
:16:04. > :16:09.socialist case, today as Jeremy called it. He's genuinely come to
:16:10. > :16:12.the view that we would see jobs in parts of Britain like Doncaster at
:16:13. > :16:18.risk if we pulled out of Europe. In my part of the world, I know, Airbus
:16:19. > :16:25.the great company based across the UK and in France this week only they
:16:26. > :16:32.said and they support 15,000 jobs across the UK, they said this week
:16:33. > :16:37.they wouldn't be in the UK if we were not in the UK. The world we've
:16:38. > :16:42.got is one where we are in the EU right now and, if we vote to leave,
:16:43. > :16:46.we'll see economic consequences for this country and jobs will be lost.
:16:47. > :16:50.It isn't scaremongering, it's a statement of fact.
:16:51. > :16:56.APPLAUSE We have created more jobs here than
:16:57. > :17:00.in the other 27 member states put together. Plainly in the real word,
:17:01. > :17:05.the world offive, not supposition, there is no lack of investment
:17:06. > :17:11.coming in. We had exactly these arguments about the euro. Everyone
:17:12. > :17:15.said the investment will go away and unemployment will rise. That did
:17:16. > :17:19.happen in the eurozone. Can you name a single senior business person or
:17:20. > :17:26.big company in this country who's advocating... Absolutely. I would
:17:27. > :17:38.rather trust award-winning exporters like Dyson, legal general, Tate
:17:39. > :17:42.Lyle... A simple question, do you think exporters will have exactly
:17:43. > :17:47.the same deal in Europe as they have now, no tariffs? Yes. Or do you
:17:48. > :17:51.think there'll be a bit of a tariff? I'm certain from 'll be no tariffs
:17:52. > :17:54.at all. Better to go on evidence than supposition. There's in the a
:17:55. > :18:02.single country in Europe, whether or not they are in the EU, that is
:18:03. > :18:08.outside the tree trade area. You can go to non-EU Iceland to non-EU
:18:09. > :18:13.Turkey and you do not come across a single EU trade barrier. To be fair,
:18:14. > :18:17.you need to acknowledge then that if you are advocating the Norwegian
:18:18. > :18:21.position which is not a member of the European Union but is a member
:18:22. > :18:29.of the free trade association, that they still have to pay membership
:18:30. > :18:33.subs. That is the way it works. My argument is, we should be better
:18:34. > :18:35.reforming the long list of things that need reforming, rather than
:18:36. > :18:42.taking ourselves out of the biggest single market in the world which by
:18:43. > :18:44.the way has helped secure social rights, workers' right, gender
:18:45. > :18:50.rights. These thingses matter. APPLAUSE.
:18:51. > :18:54.Jason who asked the question, what is your mark for Corbyn out of ten?
:18:55. > :18:59.We have been talking about Europe generally there, but going back to
:19:00. > :19:02.Corbyn, he's been speaking about Europe for years. 40 years. He
:19:03. > :19:04.should have stuck to what he believed in.
:19:05. > :19:08.Yes. APPLAUSE. And we have been
:19:09. > :19:12.vindicated me. Said the European Union will stop a left of centre
:19:13. > :19:16.Government implementing its programme which is exactly what's
:19:17. > :19:20.just happened in Greece. So I would not have voted for Alexis Tsipras,
:19:21. > :19:25.but the case that Tony Benn under the Labour left used to make which
:19:26. > :19:29.is democracy will be stop bid bureaucracy, has been absolutely
:19:30. > :19:35.shown to be true. Another question here ready on Europe. We have heard
:19:36. > :19:40.a lot of people pro--in, somebody who's in favour of out. Oh, my God!
:19:41. > :19:46.I will take you in the second row from the back. I can't bring
:19:47. > :19:51.everybody in. Nobody knows what will happen whether we stay in Europe or
:19:52. > :19:55.leave Europe. I think it's about time politicians were honest. We
:19:56. > :20:01.keep on getting this will happen, that will happen. Nobody knows. How
:20:02. > :20:06.do you decide how to vote then? On what you see in your every day life.
:20:07. > :20:13.You look around where you live and around the country, you see what you
:20:14. > :20:20.see and you take a decision. I think our default position on Europe
:20:21. > :20:23.should be, we are not paying, we will govern ourselves and, if you're
:20:24. > :20:27.prepared to deal with us, we shall deal with you. OK. Thank you.
:20:28. > :20:34.APPLAUSE. We'll move on. Time to talk more
:20:35. > :20:40.about Europe, but there's a question because everybody wants to talk
:20:41. > :20:44.about Europe. Over half the questions we had tonight were about
:20:45. > :20:49.Europe. Question Time audiences are clearly not getting bored of that.
:20:50. > :20:54.Andy Ramsbottom? Isn't it true that the only way to have control over UK
:20:55. > :20:59.borders and immigration is to leave the European Union?
:21:00. > :21:05.APPLAUSE. Owen Smith? I think it's clearly
:21:06. > :21:09.true that if we weren't in the EU and wanted to be out of the single
:21:10. > :21:14.market then Equitable exercise greater control, we could stop
:21:15. > :21:18.having free movement of people. However, and Angus raised the
:21:19. > :21:22.question about Norway earlier on, the reality is, the plain truth is
:21:23. > :21:30.that all of the countries outside the EU that want to enjoy the
:21:31. > :21:35.benefit of trade, Norway Switzerland, are subject to the same
:21:36. > :21:40.rules. Norway has a higher proportion of immigrants versus its
:21:41. > :21:43.country than the UK does, so does Switzerland and they also have to
:21:44. > :21:48.enact their own national legislation, all of the EU rules...
:21:49. > :21:52.Why do you say all the same thing would happen to Britain, a far
:21:53. > :21:57.larger country than Switzerland or Norway? The gentleman who said a
:21:58. > :22:01.moment ago said we don't know what is going to happen, that is right,
:22:02. > :22:04.but we have a duty to lead and suggest what we think is likely as
:22:05. > :22:10.politicians. On the basis of history and what we see around the rest of
:22:11. > :22:14.Europe, the most likely scenario is that for us to be able to enjoy the
:22:15. > :22:19.benefits of trade and take part in the biggest market across the world,
:22:20. > :22:23.the 500 million people to whom we can sell and buy, we'll need to play
:22:24. > :22:30.by the rules soyes, we can exercise more control but at what cost? Jenny
:22:31. > :22:35.Jones? I don't think that in or out is going to make much difference to
:22:36. > :22:38.levels of immigration because we have a moderately healthy economy,
:22:39. > :22:46.people are always going to want to come and to get a piece of it and to
:22:47. > :22:51.work here and personally, I think mile migration is a fantastic thing
:22:52. > :22:56.because we need migrants. APPLAUSE. I just would like to point
:22:57. > :23:01.out that migrants here in Britain pay more than their fair share of
:23:02. > :23:06.taxes. APPLAUSE.
:23:07. > :23:12.And they actually take less than their fair share of benefits. And so
:23:13. > :23:17.migrants are actually good for Britain. The NHS would fall over
:23:18. > :23:20.without enough migrants to fill the nursing jobs the service providers,
:23:21. > :23:26.the doctors. APPLAUSE. But you are saying you
:23:27. > :23:32.think there's no difference in your view in the ability to control
:23:33. > :23:36.immigration even though every of the 500 or whatever million people in
:23:37. > :23:41.the EU have the right to come here without question? You don't think it
:23:42. > :23:47.will make any difference? I really don't. I think that migrants are
:23:48. > :23:51.always going to want to come here, it's a very attractive country and
:23:52. > :23:56.we need them. The difference is, at the moment, you have to let them in.
:23:57. > :24:02.If you are out of the EU, will you still have to let them? ? What about
:24:03. > :24:06.all the Brits that go abroad? We have a million Brits living in
:24:07. > :24:10.Spain, two million in the rest of the EU and, not to mention Australia
:24:11. > :24:15.and the US and so on, we are migrants too. All right. We have to
:24:16. > :24:21.accept that they are a great thing. Dia Chakravarty? Well, as a first
:24:22. > :24:24.generation immigrant, I happen to agree with Jenny, migration can be a
:24:25. > :24:28.great thing. APPLAUSE. But I would like to take
:24:29. > :24:34.it back to the point I was previously making about the EU, that
:24:35. > :24:42.migration can be a great thing, free movement of people has benefitted
:24:43. > :24:47.countries over the years. But, outside the EU, to the world, it
:24:48. > :24:51.still looks very much like a cartel, so if you are outside the EU, even
:24:52. > :24:58.if you have a skill that you can very well sell to the EU or the UK,
:24:59. > :25:03.you can't bring it here as easily as you can than if you belong in the
:25:04. > :25:08.EU. The EU is not really that free to the people outside that bloc and
:25:09. > :25:12.I think that's a problem. Do you have a view about the level which
:25:13. > :25:19.clearly Andy does, a view about the level of immigration? You say if we
:25:20. > :25:23.left the EU, then it wouldn't be automatically getting in, you are
:25:24. > :25:29.suggesting it would be easier to get inside the EU than it is at the
:25:30. > :25:34.moment. You came from Bangladesh and you think it would be easier for
:25:35. > :25:39.people to come from the Asian subcontinent to come here than it is
:25:40. > :25:42.now? It would be beneficial to have a country where people can decide
:25:43. > :25:46.what skill set of people can come into the country. That makes a lot
:25:47. > :25:53.of sense. APPLAUSE. I want my country back and
:25:54. > :25:58.I want freedom. APPLAUSE. When you say you want your
:25:59. > :26:02.country back, what do you mean? I don't believe our country is free
:26:03. > :26:06.any more. You only have to look at the European Union and what is going
:26:07. > :26:10.on there. I want my country back, I want Britain to be Britain. I just
:26:11. > :26:15.want. We are all so frustrated with all this talk about the EU and all
:26:16. > :26:19.this rubbish we are hearing that. Gentleman there in the orange tie,
:26:20. > :26:24.he knows what goes on in Europe. Absolutely. You wouldn't believe the
:26:25. > :26:29.half of it. Angus Robertson, would you like to
:26:30. > :26:33.answer her point directly? I think there is a challenge, because
:26:34. > :26:40.outside the European Union, the UK and other states are able to
:26:41. > :26:45.exercise border controls and within the European Union, there is free
:26:46. > :26:48.movement of citizens within the European Union. We need to
:26:49. > :26:52.understand there is a balance, because there's also rights to UK
:26:53. > :26:56.citizens, the rights of the one million people from the UK who live
:26:57. > :27:03.in Spain, the 300,000 people from the UK who live in France, the
:27:04. > :27:06.nearly 300,000 UK passport holders who live in the Irish Republic.
:27:07. > :27:11.There are huge advantages to people from UK to be able to live and work
:27:12. > :27:14.elsewhere in Europe. Do you accept what Andy said, which was the only
:27:15. > :27:17.way to have control over the borders is to leave the EU? Yes is the
:27:18. > :27:26.answer. APPLAUSE. But, that is not what I
:27:27. > :27:30.want. Because I'm in favour of people from this country being able
:27:31. > :27:39.to live and work elsewhere in Europe too. I think we need to be honest.
:27:40. > :27:43.APPLAUSE. We need to be honest. This is about sharing sovereignty and
:27:44. > :27:46.there are up thes sides and downsides and anybody who's
:27:47. > :27:49.suggesting there is not an issue with migration, with the
:27:50. > :27:53.difficulties of millions of people who're fleeing for their lives,
:27:54. > :27:58.please, and let's not forget that from Syria and elsewhere, and we
:27:59. > :28:03.have responsibilities to deal with these issues, but let's not simplify
:28:04. > :28:06.it down to being simply an issue of leaving the European Union and
:28:07. > :28:14.everything will be fine. Because it will not.
:28:15. > :28:18.OK. You, Sir? Well, if we come out the European Union and I want to
:28:19. > :28:22.work in France, if I've got the skills, they'll let me work in
:28:23. > :28:26.France. We don't have to be in the European Union for that. The woman
:28:27. > :28:30.in the middle there, yes? I absolutely think we should stay in
:28:31. > :28:35.Europe because we... APPLAUSE. We are talking about the
:28:36. > :28:39.people in Britain going outside to have country to work in the rest of
:28:40. > :28:45.Europe, but what about all the national companies that have come
:28:46. > :28:48.here to build the car manufacturers here and build their products here.
:28:49. > :28:53.If we are not part of the EU, they won't be able to sell their products
:28:54. > :28:56.to the people all over the world who have trade agreements and it could
:28:57. > :29:01.take years to build those trade agreements. So what about those
:29:02. > :29:06.jobs? The key word in Andy's question was control. I'm in favour
:29:07. > :29:11.of legal immigration. Economic migration. I think this country
:29:12. > :29:14.benefits from the energy and enterprise of people prepared to
:29:15. > :29:19.uproot themselves and cross half the world in some cases to come here. I
:29:20. > :29:23.also think we are a generous one they will always make space for
:29:24. > :29:32.people in need of sanctuary. But if we are to accept a measure of inward
:29:33. > :29:37.migration, in return we ask for a sense of knowledge of who comes in.
:29:38. > :29:43.We have a crazy policy where we have to open our borders to 600 million
:29:44. > :29:46.people who happen to hold EU passports, but as Dia says, this
:29:47. > :29:51.means in practise we have toe keep out people who may have family links
:29:52. > :29:56.here, whose families may have fought for us in the two wars when we were
:29:57. > :30:00.in trouble. There will be those who've had huge difficulties
:30:01. > :30:04.Britaining auntie over for a wedding, never mind trying to setsle
:30:05. > :30:08.here, because we have had to restrict visas for nationals in
:30:09. > :30:13.order to free up unlimited space for people with no connection to this
:30:14. > :30:19.country. It's unfair, immoral and makes no sense economically.
:30:20. > :30:27.The migration crisis, like the Euro crisis, is deteriorating before our
:30:28. > :30:32.eyes. Because we kept our border checks, and because we kept the
:30:33. > :30:38.pound, we have other options. We don't need to make those problems
:30:39. > :30:42.our problems. And the choice we face on the 23rd of June is, do we want
:30:43. > :30:46.to embroil ourselves in the bailouts and more integration that is coming
:30:47. > :30:50.because of the deteriorating crisis on the continent, or should we
:30:51. > :30:58.follow a different trajectory, reorienting to the wider world, the
:30:59. > :31:02.bits that are in fact growing? You seem to have got your passport
:31:03. > :31:08.there. You don't need a passport for Doncaster. I was so desperate to
:31:09. > :31:15.come that I flew in from Strasbourg to do it.
:31:16. > :31:20.We go on to another question. Thank you very much for all that, but we
:31:21. > :31:26.had half an hour and we have other questions to come. Join us in Exeter
:31:27. > :31:34.next week, or in whole or week after. You can apply on our website.
:31:35. > :31:39.I will give the details at the end. The next question from David
:31:40. > :31:48.Clayton. Has the time now come to abolish inheritance tax, considering
:31:49. > :31:52.it is a tax on already taxed income? This was raised in the House of
:31:53. > :31:56.Commons, talking about inheritance tax and David Cameron's inheritance.
:31:57. > :32:04.Dia Chakravarty, is it right to abolish inheritance tax? Yes, I
:32:05. > :32:07.agree. It is indeed double taxation. There are other good reasons as
:32:08. > :32:11.well. I think the most compelling reason, and this is why it
:32:12. > :32:16.inheritance tax is the most hated tax in the country. There was a poll
:32:17. > :32:22.done last year and it was found that even people who do not expect to pay
:32:23. > :32:26.it hate it. It goes against the basic human nature and instinct to
:32:27. > :32:33.provide for one's family and leave something behind. That is why it
:32:34. > :32:40.just is such an unnatural law, that it is difficult to sell to anybody,
:32:41. > :32:46.really. The third point is that it is a hugely complex piece of
:32:47. > :32:53.legislation. It takes up 10% of our insanely complicated tax code, and
:32:54. > :32:57.it brings in about 0.7% of revenue. And there are so many different
:32:58. > :33:01.loopholes in that piece of legislation. You can declare it as
:33:02. > :33:05.agricultural land and that means something else, etc. And some people
:33:06. > :33:11.bring up the quality point about taking it from the very rich and
:33:12. > :33:14.giving it to someone else, redistribution. The reality is that
:33:15. > :33:19.the super-rich, the people at the top will always have different ways
:33:20. > :33:19.of getting round it, precisely because it is such...
:33:20. > :33:27.APPLAUSE Precisely because it is such a
:33:28. > :33:31.complicated piece of legislation. So the people who are stuck with it are
:33:32. > :33:37.the aspirational middle-class right in the middle. Since 2010, the
:33:38. > :33:41.number of people paying inheritance tax has quadrupled. It is the people
:33:42. > :33:42.in the middle who feel the pinch, so absolutely we should abolish it.
:33:43. > :33:52.APPLAUSE Jenny Jones, do you think it is
:33:53. > :33:56.right that parents should leave things to their children and be
:33:57. > :34:02.taxed as low as possible, or are you in favour of inheritance tax as it
:34:03. > :34:07.stands? As a general view on tax, I am very in favour of paying tax. At
:34:08. > :34:11.the cost of a subversion of it is the cost of a civilised society.
:34:12. > :34:17.Taxes pay for the things we all need at some point in our lives, whether
:34:18. > :34:21.hospital care, schools or roads. But inheritance tax, I do think is
:34:22. > :34:27.iniquitous. It is absolutely wrong that it is twice taxed money. There
:34:28. > :34:28.are better ways. If we closed a view of the tax avoidance gaps...
:34:29. > :34:38.APPLAUSE These legal loopholes that were
:34:39. > :34:42.never designed to prevent people paying tax, but people have managed
:34:43. > :34:48.to find and get round the regulations. Or follow up on some of
:34:49. > :34:52.the tax evasion that is happening, which this Government doesn't seem
:34:53. > :35:00.at all interested in getting to grips with. Another Green rebellion
:35:01. > :35:04.before our very eyes. No inheritance tax. I am embarrassed to say I do
:35:05. > :35:09.not know the party policy on inheritance tax, so I hope I am not
:35:10. > :35:15.rebelling on this as well, but I think it is a ridiculous tax and it
:35:16. > :35:19.should go. I am proud to be a taxpayer and proud that I should be
:35:20. > :35:23.able to turn every single amount of money that I do learn and I should
:35:24. > :35:29.be to spend or give it to whoever I'd choose I want to give it to. It
:35:30. > :35:38.should not have to be double taxed. You, sir, on the third row. My big
:35:39. > :35:45.worry is that we are creating a very selfish and insular society. This
:35:46. > :35:49.idea that tax in any shape or form is wrong. As you rightly said, we
:35:50. > :35:55.need these things to pay for the NHS, to pay for schools, to pay for
:35:56. > :36:00.benefits. I feel there are quite a lot of people who feel as though, I
:36:01. > :36:04.shouldn't pay any tax because... Well, maybe they earn enough to use
:36:05. > :36:08.private health care, private schools and things of that nature, things I
:36:09. > :36:12.know a lot of the Tory party already enjoy.
:36:13. > :36:18.APPLAUSE My worry is that we should be
:36:19. > :36:26.looking at tax as more of a moral obligation, than a legal obligation.
:36:27. > :36:31.Change the narrative, yes. You want him to pay your tax bill. If he is
:36:32. > :36:41.keen on paying tax, he can pay mine, for sure.
:36:42. > :36:46.You need the NHS. I pay my tax and I am happy to, but we pay too much.
:36:47. > :36:51.One of my early questions would have been, why does it cost so much to be
:36:52. > :36:53.in Europe. It's ridiculous. It's because there are too many people
:36:54. > :37:01.with first-class tickets on the gravy train. One of the things that
:37:02. > :37:05.came up in the House of Commons, people are saying that as long as
:37:06. > :37:09.you live seven years after you give money you do not have to pay
:37:10. > :37:13.inheritance tax. Is that right? Should Labour crackdown on
:37:14. > :37:17.Americans? Do you approve of people giving money to their children. --
:37:18. > :37:26.should Labour crackdown on inheritance. The one good thing that
:37:27. > :37:30.has come out of the extraordinary unseemly mess about tax and the
:37:31. > :37:35.Panama Papers is that we are at last in this country having a serious
:37:36. > :37:40.conversation about tax. Because for 30 or 40 years in this country, the
:37:41. > :37:43.debate about tax, the crucial debate about how we raise enough revenue to
:37:44. > :37:48.pay for hospitals and schools and all of the things to look after our
:37:49. > :37:53.children and grandparents, has just sat there, with neither party,
:37:54. > :37:57.frankly, bold enough to grab it. I am pleased that coming out of the
:37:58. > :38:01.Panama Papers, which has revealed, as Dia says, that so many people who
:38:02. > :38:05.are extraordinarily wealthy in this country and across the world are
:38:06. > :38:07.avoiding their taxes, and in doing that they are robbing the rest of
:38:08. > :38:12.us. APPLAUSE
:38:13. > :38:19.Why, then, did Labour raise the level at which you have to start
:38:20. > :38:23.paying inheritance tax by nearly a third? I think that was a mistake,
:38:24. > :38:29.and I think the truth is that we have a yawning gap in this country
:38:30. > :38:33.and across the Western world between a few percentage points of the
:38:34. > :38:37.population who have an extraordinary amount of wealth, and the vast
:38:38. > :38:41.majority who struggle to get by. If we don't have wealth taxes, and
:38:42. > :38:45.inheritance tax at some level is a wealth tax, then we will continue to
:38:46. > :38:51.see larger and larger amounts of money gather at the top of society,
:38:52. > :38:56.in the hands of those few percentage points. And we will not see the rest
:38:57. > :38:58.of society, including people here in Doncaster, enjoy the benefits of the
:38:59. > :39:04.social provisions that come through those taxes. So we need to be tough
:39:05. > :39:09.about this. You would like to reverse the change Labour made in
:39:10. > :39:15.office on the threshold? I would reverse the change the Tories made
:39:16. > :39:18.recently. Which one? They changed inheritance tax recently and made it
:39:19. > :39:24.even easier to get rid of money, in the last but one Budget. They
:39:25. > :39:27.changed it twice since they came in. Crucially, the decisions they have
:39:28. > :39:31.made on tax reveal all you need to know about the Tories. They cut the
:39:32. > :39:37.top rate for millionaires in this country. Everyone earning over
:39:38. > :39:40.?150,000 got a big bar. In the last Budget, they took money from
:39:41. > :39:50.disabled people. The wrong priorities. The woman up there. I
:39:51. > :39:54.find the question for Doncaster quite ironic, because I see lots of
:39:55. > :39:59.women, my friends. I am going to lose my job in two weeks because the
:40:00. > :40:05.Tories have been stealing our tax and domestic violence services are
:40:06. > :40:10.closing. Women's aid is closing in two weeks, having been here for 40
:40:11. > :40:15.years, because of the Tories. Because of the Tories doing what? We
:40:16. > :40:19.talk about the Panama Papers. It is the elephant in the room. The
:40:20. > :40:25.question about inheritance tax is a small issue. The question of Google,
:40:26. > :40:31.boots, you name it, Starbucks, the question of Tories, I don't know how
:40:32. > :40:34.you dare talk about Europe being corrupt when we have Cameron who
:40:35. > :40:39.said he would look after the vulnerable in 2010, and he has
:40:40. > :40:44.stripped us of everything. APPLAUSE
:40:45. > :40:54.Daniel Hannan. Thank you very much. The question was should we abolish
:40:55. > :41:00.inheritance tax. Address what she has said, in major attack on your
:41:01. > :41:04.party. Well, first of all, the big tax dodge, if you want to look for
:41:05. > :41:15.one, is that Euro clap to not pay tax at all. In 2010, we were told a
:41:16. > :41:21.lie, that we had to take austerity. We had to lose our jobs, our
:41:22. > :41:24.libraries, house in Bath 's. And do you know what happened? Cameron did
:41:25. > :41:32.not look after the vulnerable. He made sure the rich got richer and
:41:33. > :41:37.richer, and the gap is like that! APPLAUSE
:41:38. > :41:43.I would like to get back to the original question but since you say
:41:44. > :41:48.it is not reasonable to link it to Europe, the Institute for Fiscal
:41:49. > :41:53.Studies, between 2010 - 2015, during the coalition parliament, all of the
:41:54. > :42:01.austerity cuts put together saved ?36 billion. It is a lie. Please
:42:02. > :42:04.take the microphone away while Daniel answers, otherwise we can't
:42:05. > :42:11.hear what he says. We heard what you said. We want to listen to him now.
:42:12. > :42:17.You may not want to, but everyone else wants to. We can all remember
:42:18. > :42:21.the circumstances in 2010, we had a bigger deficit than Greece and we
:42:22. > :42:25.were in a bad place. We had to make some savings. According to the IFS,
:42:26. > :42:31.although savings put together came to a total of ?36 billion. Over the
:42:32. > :42:37.lifetime of that same Parliament, our gross contribution to the EU
:42:38. > :42:39.budget was ?85 billion, our net contribution was ?42 billion. So it
:42:40. > :42:45.is all the worry well to say you must not link the two things. Even
:42:46. > :42:48.if you take the net figure, we could have wiped out every single one of
:42:49. > :42:55.the austerity measures and still had enough left over to take a penny off
:42:56. > :43:06.income tax. Let's talk about cuts to disabled people. If you are handing
:43:07. > :43:09.taxes to millionaires... Hold on, Daniel. I know you are keen to go on
:43:10. > :43:15.making the point about Europe but her question wasn't about that. Even
:43:16. > :43:18.if it is Brexit, it is two years before, while you negotiate to get
:43:19. > :43:23.out. She is talking about since the last election and measures taken
:43:24. > :43:30.since 2010. It is all right, madam. I will do it for you for the moment.
:43:31. > :43:37.Local services in Doncaster are up to the council in Doncaster. And
:43:38. > :43:47.quite rightly so. The Government has cut the funding.
:43:48. > :43:51.Can you feel the anger? Can you feel how unhappy people are in Doncaster
:43:52. > :43:55.and elsewhere... APPLAUSE
:43:56. > :44:00.About the fact that we know we have been played by an ultra rich elite
:44:01. > :44:06.in this country and around the world, who fiddled their taxes,
:44:07. > :44:11.whose salt it away in tax havens. And this government says the biggest
:44:12. > :44:12.problem when it comes to the abuse is the abuse of benefits.
:44:13. > :44:24.APPLAUSE In poor communities, pursuing the
:44:25. > :44:27.poorest in society. I think the abuse of benefits is wrong, but
:44:28. > :44:35.let's understand the order of the abuse that is going on. Just over ?1
:44:36. > :44:41.billion is estimated to go in the direction of abuse of benefits. The
:44:42. > :44:43.tax gap, from people who evade it and avoid it, is more than ?30
:44:44. > :44:56.billion. That is going up. I ask you then,
:44:57. > :45:02.why is it that the staffing levels in the HMRC who deem with pursuing
:45:03. > :45:07.the richest in society are significantly less than they used to
:45:08. > :45:10.pursue the poorest in society. It shows the priority of the Tories and
:45:11. > :45:19.people should be very, very angry about that.
:45:20. > :45:30.APPLAUSE. You said in the House of Commons they only had 300 people,
:45:31. > :45:35.they said 26,000 people today. I asked about the ultra-rich. They
:45:36. > :45:45.have 26,000 people doing enforcement and more than 400 on high net worth.
:45:46. > :45:51.On papers, it's the ultra-rich. I'm asking why are there so few people
:45:52. > :45:54.relative to the staffing levels dealing with the ultra-rich taking
:45:55. > :45:58.their money elsewhere and not paying for hospitals and roads and Public
:45:59. > :46:04.Services in Doncaster and they should be doing that. When an but
:46:05. > :46:09.thes started speaking, there was a large shout of "rubbish" from
:46:10. > :46:14.someone. Must have been me again! Oh, no, not you? Can you remember
:46:15. > :46:17.when the banks went down and the deficit and the national debt. Has
:46:18. > :46:23.everyone forgot about that or was that made up? Do you remember?
:46:24. > :46:28.That's why there's been cuts and austerity. That's why we have got to
:46:29. > :46:42.close the gap. People think it was made up.
:46:43. > :46:51.This Government is closing HMRC. You would have thought they wanted to
:46:52. > :46:58.get the tax money in. Wait a minute. The man in red. You
:46:59. > :47:03.were talking over there and I'll keep the panel quiet for a minute.
:47:04. > :47:08.There's over ?30 million in unpaid tax. If we close the tax loopholes,
:47:09. > :47:12.get that ?30 billion in tax, we don't need to make austerity
:47:13. > :47:17.measures, there we go. APPLAUSE. Do you want to come back
:47:18. > :47:21.on this, Owen? The Gentleman's got a point. The truth is that the tax
:47:22. > :47:24.gap, the gap between how much we should be getting and how much we
:47:25. > :47:28.are getting in, according to the Government itself has gone up on
:47:29. > :47:32.their watch. If they'd been so careful to clamp down on tax
:47:33. > :47:36.avoidance as David Cameron would have us all believe, it would it
:47:37. > :47:41.wouldn't be rising, it's up to ?34 billion. The question is, what are
:47:42. > :47:46.the choices and priorities of the Government? Are they choosing in
:47:47. > :47:51.this period of austerity, to ask those with the wider shoaleders to
:47:52. > :47:55.bear the biggest burden, or are they instead looking for the little man,
:47:56. > :48:01.whether it's the small business or individuals here and across the
:48:02. > :48:07.country to carry the burden and I fear the last six years has seen the
:48:08. > :48:11.little manukary the burden far too often. What would you be doing if
:48:12. > :48:19.you were leading an independent Scotland with no money?
:48:20. > :48:25.APPLAUSE. No, no, thank you Angus. We'll come
:48:26. > :48:32.back to that. You in the green shirt there. I've heard it all now.
:48:33. > :48:43.Inheritance tax is all Europe's fault. We look at the big guys who
:48:44. > :48:47.avoid the tax, you know, the Googles of this world, middle tax is going
:48:48. > :48:56.to hit a lot of people, especially in the London and the south-east
:48:57. > :49:00.where they live in a din edgy semi. We may have to look at inheritance
:49:01. > :49:04.tax for London and the South East and do a lot lower, for the rest of
:49:05. > :49:09.the country, because a lot of the people who live in the south-east
:49:10. > :49:14.have lived in these house force the last however many years and they've
:49:15. > :49:19.gone up in value and there's nothing stopping them. We are talking about
:49:20. > :49:24.cutting inheritance tax but we should be looking at the tax that's
:49:25. > :49:29.gone up in the decades and is affecting the tax in the poorest
:49:30. > :49:36.society. Stop VAT, you will get people buying again.
:49:37. > :49:38.ALL SPEAK AT ONCE It will affect energy bills and the
:49:39. > :50:00.whole economy. Hold on. Owen did just say VAT should be
:50:01. > :50:06.abolished. A very good point. A very good point. Labour policy now under
:50:07. > :50:14.your leadership to abolish VAT? No, cut VAT. The last Labour Government
:50:15. > :50:18.cut VAT. We saw an extra ?5 billion in the economy. That cannot be done
:50:19. > :50:26.while we are members of the European Union. In South America it's 5%,
:50:27. > :50:30.but, you know. The man in the spectacles at the back? We have got
:50:31. > :50:38.away from the real issue here. No, really? ! Which is inheritance tax.
:50:39. > :50:42.Yes? I was reading on the equality trust website that one of the
:50:43. > :50:46.reasons why people are rich in the UK is because they were born rich
:50:47. > :50:51.and that's the purpose behind inheritance tax it's to deal with
:50:52. > :50:56.that - shut up! The purpose behind the tax is to deal with that
:50:57. > :50:59.trouble, whether it's an efficient tax is the question that needs to be
:51:00. > :51:06.answered and if it's not we need to look at other ways to address the
:51:07. > :51:11.issue of how prosperity wealth is derived from who your parents are,
:51:12. > :51:17.rather than what you work for. APPLAUSE.
:51:18. > :51:20.One more question? I don't disagree the gentleman's point about possibly
:51:21. > :51:24.banding to it different levels because one of the points Cameron
:51:25. > :51:30.made when commenting only finally deciding to tell us the truth was it
:51:31. > :51:34.was only ?20,000 that he got, well, at the time, ?20,000 or ?30,000, was
:51:35. > :51:40.two years' wages to somebody up here, so maybe you tax it based on
:51:41. > :51:43.how much money the person it's going to's got rather than the gee
:51:44. > :51:52.graphical area or something like that. OK. Ian Thompson, a last
:51:53. > :51:56.question for us? At what stage is a politician's private life wandering
:51:57. > :51:59.into the public interest. This is about the Culture Secretary John
:52:00. > :52:03.Whittingdale and the stories that have emerged about him in the press
:52:04. > :52:11.and about whether they should or shouldn't have done. Jenny Jones? I
:52:12. > :52:15.believe that even Tory politicians deserve a private life. There's
:52:16. > :52:25.something odd about this story because it was about actually the
:52:26. > :52:30.sort of thing like a kiss-and-tell so I'm curious why this story didn't
:52:31. > :52:33.run. There should be one rule for all Preferably that people
:52:34. > :52:40.confidence a private life and that, when you have sex between consenting
:52:41. > :52:45.adults, then that seems to be OK in most people's books. Hang on, so you
:52:46. > :52:49.think it's OK to have a private life but you are curious why the press
:52:50. > :52:54.didn't run it, those things are in conflict. Not at all. You think it
:52:55. > :52:58.should have been run? In this instance I'm surprised they didn't
:52:59. > :53:02.run it, they are usually quick to run stories about Blixes doing
:53:03. > :53:07.anything wrong -- politicians doing anything wrong. Going to the,
:53:08. > :53:14.cutting to the chase, the idea that it was put about is because he had
:53:15. > :53:20.influence over the press they thought they could hold him hostage,
:53:21. > :53:24.do you think that's right? I have absolutely no idea what the truth
:53:25. > :53:29.is. Personally I think politicians, everyone should be able to have a
:53:30. > :53:33.private life. Owen Smith? I think even politicians should be entitled
:53:34. > :53:38.to have a private life and, therefore I don't think there is any
:53:39. > :53:43.public interest ordinarily in the sex lives of politicians. In this
:53:44. > :53:47.instance, I think there is... You think they are boring. There is a
:53:48. > :53:50.question to be asked, which is because this man, John Whittingdale,
:53:51. > :53:57.is in charge of determining whether we are going to have the second half
:53:58. > :53:59.of the Leveson Inquiry into phone hacking, into the corruption between
:54:00. > :54:05.the police and the press that lay at the heart of the awful phone hacking
:54:06. > :54:10.scandal that saw Millie Dowler's phone hacked and all of those other
:54:11. > :54:15.dreadful things happen, John Whittingdale was someone very much
:54:16. > :54:19.in favour when he was in charge of the culture committee, of the
:54:20. > :54:28.Leveson Inquiry taking place. Can you get to the point... Well, I know
:54:29. > :54:33.he's now changed his mind. What are you saying? If there's a question to
:54:34. > :54:37.be asked, he can announce either he's going to have the second part
:54:38. > :54:40.of the Leveson Inquiry and then there would be no evidence to
:54:41. > :54:45.suggest there was no undue influence on him or he could say there was and
:54:46. > :54:50.therefore I shouldn't take part in this inquiry. What about if it
:54:51. > :54:55.wasn't and he shouldn't take part in the second part of this If he's
:54:56. > :55:02.changed his mind... So you are using this to bully him? I'm using this to
:55:03. > :55:05.ask a genuine question as to whether this important inquiry's been put on
:55:06. > :55:10.the ling finger by the Tory party and was there any reason for this
:55:11. > :55:20.minister wanting to do that? Daniel? I think if you are going to allege
:55:21. > :55:24.something, allege it, but don't insinuate, it's cowardly. The reason
:55:25. > :55:30.this story is not run because it wasn't a story. Single man has
:55:31. > :55:33.girlfriend, it's not exactly Watergate. The newspapers didn't see
:55:34. > :55:41.it as a huge issue and nor should they. What was extraordinary, all
:55:42. > :55:47.those campaigning for newspapers not to run these stories, when the
:55:48. > :55:50.system worked, when they'd got the outcome they were calling for, they
:55:51. > :55:54.complained because they happen not to like the person who they think
:55:55. > :56:01.should have been exposed and we can claw our own conclusions about their
:56:02. > :56:08.motivation and hypocrisy. Dia Chakravarty? It's a non-story,
:56:09. > :56:11.as Dan says, a single adult having a relationship with another single
:56:12. > :56:17.adult so there is no story. I haven't seen any evidence to suggest
:56:18. > :56:20.anything untoward happening so in the absence of that, it seems very
:56:21. > :56:25.much in this case in particular the newspapers can't really win. If they
:56:26. > :56:29.had gone ahead and published this non-story as I think it is, it would
:56:30. > :56:32.have been entirely plausible that the campaigners would have said,
:56:33. > :56:38.they are only publishing this story and making a male of it because they
:56:39. > :56:43.have a grudge against this person, John whiting gale and now that they
:56:44. > :56:47.haven't published it it seems the suggestion is something shady is
:56:48. > :56:54.going on, but in the absence of any evidence, I don't see what the story
:56:55. > :56:58.is or all the fuss is about? Angus? I was disgusted, it was a gross
:56:59. > :57:02.invasion of someone I oppose politically and his private life. If
:57:03. > :57:07.there are serious allegations to make, make them, don't give some
:57:08. > :57:12.newspapers an excuse to print pictures of you, the woman you were
:57:13. > :57:17.going out with, what she did et cetera, this is the same excuse and
:57:18. > :57:22.tactic used in previous decades to say that gay men and women couldn't
:57:23. > :57:25.serve in public life bawchz they could be blackmailed on different
:57:26. > :57:31.issues. It was wrong then, it's wrong now. If there are allegations
:57:32. > :57:34.that can be substantiated, make that argument. Make that argument. And
:57:35. > :57:42.provide the evidence. APPLAUSE. So you disagree with Owen
:57:43. > :57:48.Smith on this? Profoundly. The Labour Party let itself down by
:57:49. > :57:53.allowings those who'd wish to print invasions of someone's privacy, and
:57:54. > :58:00.they gave a... Come on, come off it, come off it. They gave a very slim
:58:01. > :58:04.excuse. If there was evidence... If the Labour Party raised this issue,
:58:05. > :58:09.the BBC chose to raise this issue. ... Some of your colleagues weren't
:58:10. > :58:13.prepared to answer the question on the radio because they were so
:58:14. > :58:18.embarrassed by what was being said. Owen, a last word to you, pause we
:58:19. > :58:29.are running out of time? Why is it the second part of the Leveson
:58:30. > :58:32.choir's not gone ahead? The Prime Minister promised Millie Dowler's
:58:33. > :58:38.parents that it would go ahead. Our time is up. We have to stop. We are
:58:39. > :58:44.going to be in Exeter next week. We have Liam Fox for the Tories, Kate
:58:45. > :58:50.Howie for Labour, Paddy Ashdown for themselveses and the man who reasons
:58:51. > :58:58.Wetherspoons so you can all come about your complaints about that.
:58:59. > :59:05.And the week after we are in Hill. -- we are in Hull. If you are on
:59:06. > :59:10.Five Live, as you know, the debate goes on through the early hours on
:59:11. > :59:17.Question Time extra time, but here, the debate has to come to an end. My
:59:18. > :59:23.thanks to our panel, to all of you who came to Doncaster tonight to
:59:24. > :59:27.take part. And to you for watching, thank you. Good night.