:00:08. > :00:20.Tonight, we are in Exeter and this is Question Time.
:00:21. > :00:25.Good evening and welcome to you, whether you are watching, listening
:00:26. > :00:30.on the radio, and to our panel. The Conservative former Defence
:00:31. > :00:32.Secretary, Liam Fox. Former leader of the Liberal Democrats, Paddy
:00:33. > :00:37.Ashdown. The Labour MP campaigning to leave the European Union, Kate
:00:38. > :00:41.Hoey. The leader of Plaid Cymru, Leanne Wood. And the founder and
:00:42. > :00:56.chairman of the Wetherspoon chain of pubs, Tim Martin.
:00:57. > :01:04.As we go into this hour of debate, remember Facebook, Twitter, all at
:01:05. > :01:12.your disposal. Or you can text if you want to take issue with what the
:01:13. > :01:17.panel and audience are saying. Our first question from Louise
:01:18. > :01:23.Haines. Is it OK for Barack Obama to come to the UK and tell us how to
:01:24. > :01:30.vote in the EU referendum? Barack Obama, who arrives today. Liam Fox.
:01:31. > :01:34.Well, the president is entitled to be heard. He is our closest ally in
:01:35. > :01:39.the world. My problem with this is that what he is talking about for
:01:40. > :01:41.Britain is something that America would never except for itself. You
:01:42. > :01:45.would never have would never except for itself. You
:01:46. > :01:49.accepting a court telling the Supreme Court what to do. They would
:01:50. > :01:53.never except an open border with Mexico. You would never expect
:01:54. > :01:57.Congress to allow someone else to tell them how to spend money.
:01:58. > :02:02.Congress to allow someone else to when you get involved in any one
:02:03. > :02:02.else's domestic politics. If there is
:02:03. > :02:09.else's domestic politics. If there your national-security, you probably
:02:10. > :02:13.need to speak out. But I don't like being told we should accept one
:02:14. > :02:16.thing that the Americans wouldn't. My message to President Obama would
:02:17. > :02:21.be, can we cope with making My message to President Obama would
:02:22. > :02:30.laws? Can we cope with controlling our borders? Can we cope with
:02:31. > :02:37.In the past, you have lectured America on what you think they
:02:38. > :02:44.should do, haven't you? It is not a question of... You have. And I am
:02:45. > :02:49.not head of state. We know that. So it is all right for you? We all have
:02:50. > :02:52.opinions but he is dead of state. To come and say to us, you should
:02:53. > :02:54.accept something for come and say to us, you should
:02:55. > :02:57.Kingdom that we would never except for the United States, I think he
:02:58. > :03:00.should pause and think of for the United States, I think he
:03:01. > :03:06.message that gives. -- he is the head of state. That is not what he
:03:07. > :03:11.is saying. He is saying you should make up your own mind about this.
:03:12. > :03:18.Look, 19 and years ago this month, the American president, in 1917,
:03:19. > :03:21.Look, 19 and years ago this month, took the decision that American
:03:22. > :03:25.troops would be sent to Europe. They were, by the thousand. We would
:03:26. > :03:29.probably have lost the First World War had it not been for the
:03:30. > :03:33.intervention of America to save our freedom. And they did it again in
:03:34. > :03:40.the Second World War. And they did it again in the Cold War. And in
:03:41. > :03:47.those three wars, 1.5 million Young American soldiers were killed or
:03:48. > :03:51.wounded. What reason is he here? There are 1.5 million reasons.
:03:52. > :03:56.America has in the past protected us, defended us at every one of the
:03:57. > :04:00.dangerous moments we have faced. If it is the President's view, and it
:04:01. > :04:05.is mine too, that the step we are about to take will introduce
:04:06. > :04:09.instability into Europe at a time which is exceedingly dangerous, he
:04:10. > :04:14.has a right to say that, and he has a right to tell us that this step
:04:15. > :04:19.will endanger the safety of both his country and Europe and ourselves.
:04:20. > :04:24.Hang on a second, Tim, let me finish. Now, he does come here as a
:04:25. > :04:29.head of state of the greatest nation on earth. And our constant friend in
:04:30. > :04:35.times of the most difficulty over the last 100 years. We should give
:04:36. > :04:38.him a hearing and we should listen. And we should treat him with
:04:39. > :04:44.respect. And the one thing we should not do is to do what Kate Hoey did
:04:45. > :04:48.the other day, call him a patronising hypocrite. That is bad
:04:49. > :04:53.manners and it shames all of us. APPLAUSE
:04:54. > :05:00.Kate Hoey ought to be able to answer that. Well, I did not actually call
:05:01. > :05:02.him a patronising hypocrite. I said he was hypocritical and he was being
:05:03. > :05:08.patronising. LAUGHTER
:05:09. > :05:14.You should read it more carefully. I don't think President Obama woke up
:05:15. > :05:18.one morning and said with Michelle, we have got to go to London and tell
:05:19. > :05:24.the people that they need to stay and vote to stay in the European
:05:25. > :05:28.Union. We know why he has come, and it is a very useful time to come and
:05:29. > :05:32.have lunch with Her Majesty and that is great and I have no objection to
:05:33. > :05:37.him coming to say goodbye. But of course we know he was asked by the
:05:38. > :05:40.Prime Minister. David Cameron literally, I believe, not
:05:41. > :05:44.necessarily got down on his knees, but pleaded with him to come because
:05:45. > :05:49.he needs him, because he knows the campaign has not been going well. Do
:05:50. > :05:54.you have a tiny bit of evidence to support that? I know David Cameron
:05:55. > :05:58.is spending a lot of time instead of looking after the steel industry and
:05:59. > :06:01.other issues that we might come onto in going round the country and going
:06:02. > :06:04.round getting every single international figure he can get to
:06:05. > :06:09.come along and tell the British people. But the reality in terms of
:06:10. > :06:13.the security issue is ridiculous. The Americans have their own
:06:14. > :06:16.interest. I know they are our greatest neighbour and friend we
:06:17. > :06:22.want to be working with, but they have their own interest. They tried
:06:23. > :06:27.to stop us defending the Falklands. They tried to stop us when they
:06:28. > :06:31.invaded Grenada, and part of the Commonwealth, they did not come us.
:06:32. > :06:36.It is in their interests because they see us in the European Union as
:06:37. > :06:40.their spokesperson. If we leave, why would we not still be part of being
:06:41. > :06:47.friendly with the United States to with them? Let's hear from you in
:06:48. > :06:54.the front row. I wonder whether he is saying what is in America's
:06:55. > :06:59.interest, or in our interest. Leanne Wood. Well, I don't remember there
:07:00. > :07:04.being a big outcry when President Obama intervened in the Scottish
:07:05. > :07:09.referendum debate. I think many Tories welcomed his intervention
:07:10. > :07:16.then, telling Scots that Scotland would be better off as part of the
:07:17. > :07:19.United Kingdom. So either it is OK for the president of the United
:07:20. > :07:23.States to intervene on matters in the UK, or it is not. You cannot
:07:24. > :07:28.pick and choose depending on the referendum. But I would say, from a
:07:29. > :07:32.Welsh perspective, we have elections to the National Assembly in two
:07:33. > :07:35.weeks, and this debate has completely dominated politics for a
:07:36. > :07:40.number of weeks now. And the danger for us is that the very important
:07:41. > :07:43.issues, the fact that we have had 17 years of age they buy led
:07:44. > :07:50.government, they are the establishment in Wales. -- of a
:07:51. > :07:56.labour- led government. We are not doing a party political broadcast.
:07:57. > :08:00.Well, if it was OK for him to intervene in the Scottish referendum
:08:01. > :08:06.campaign, it has to be OK for him to intervene in this one. The man in
:08:07. > :08:12.the gallery. To link this back, as Paddy did, to a security issue, the
:08:13. > :08:18.reason the Americans can have an opinion on things, surely security
:08:19. > :08:24.in Europe has been a Nato programme, and we joined the single market, the
:08:25. > :08:28.political project that is Europe in the 1970s. So it is nothing to do
:08:29. > :08:35.with the war is and what has happened since the war is. Tim
:08:36. > :08:41.Martin. I agree with what you said about Nato. If Barack Obama wants to
:08:42. > :08:47.speak out, or Prince Charles wants to speak out, you can't stop them. I
:08:48. > :08:51.think it's slightly repugnant the way it does seem to be the great and
:08:52. > :08:58.the good. Even the New Zealand Prime Minister has been asked to comment
:08:59. > :09:02.on the European Union. So there is quite a lot of interference. I
:09:03. > :09:10.utterly disagree with Paddy's analysis of the situation. What has
:09:11. > :09:12.made America great, the top military power, fantastically powerful
:09:13. > :09:21.economy, perhaps the greatest country in the world, is the fact
:09:22. > :09:26.that it is a democracy. And that democracy is enshrined in their
:09:27. > :09:29.constitution. And if you look around the world now, it is democratic
:09:30. > :09:35.countries which are the most prosperous, and democratic countries
:09:36. > :09:38.which have the most freedom. And America is a shining example of
:09:39. > :09:41.that. The problem with Europe is that it is removing democracy...
:09:42. > :09:51.APPLAUSE And that is the issue. We were
:09:52. > :09:55.dealing with Barack Obama's visit. We have a question on Europe coming
:09:56. > :10:03.up, so let's go to that and we will just move on. Robin Horne, please.
:10:04. > :10:08.Are the Treasury right to use scare tactics in the forthcoming
:10:09. > :10:12.referendum? This was the latest announcement by the Treasury saying
:10:13. > :10:20.that on average, by 2030, households would have to pay, would lose ?4300
:10:21. > :10:25.a year. Paddy, I will come to you but first I want to ask a question
:10:26. > :10:28.which has been niggling at me. When we saw you and Neil Kinnock and
:10:29. > :10:33.David Cameron on those telephones this week, who were you actually
:10:34. > :10:43.talking to? We were talking to help others on the Remain campaign. You
:10:44. > :10:56.were not calling people? No, we were bringing them to say thank you. --
:10:57. > :11:00.we were ringing them. I had just discovered three Lib Dems in a row.
:11:01. > :11:04.The third one said, can I speak to the Prime Minister to persuade him
:11:05. > :11:10.to vote Lib Dem, so I handed it to the Prime Minister. The question
:11:11. > :11:16.was, look, I think the Treasury was right. This is well founded, and the
:11:17. > :11:19.Financial Times said so, too. I will concede that both sides will no
:11:20. > :11:23.doubt massaging arguments in favour and the figure is a bit. They always
:11:24. > :11:30.do it and they are probably doing it now. So I invite you not to listen
:11:31. > :11:36.to the Treasury. Really? David, you must let me finish. I want you to
:11:37. > :11:41.listen instead to the Independent, accepted, respected international
:11:42. > :11:45.bodies, who have warned us of the dangers and costs to ourselves and
:11:46. > :11:52.the global economy and the European economy of doing a step that would
:11:53. > :11:56.take us out of Europe. And the Out campaign say, no, they are wrong.
:11:57. > :12:01.They don't explain why they are wrong, they just say they are wrong,
:12:02. > :12:06.as if saying it makes it so. So the IMF was wrong, the OECD was wrong,
:12:07. > :12:08.the World Trade Organisation was wrong. The G-7 Finance
:12:09. > :12:09.the World Trade Organisation was said that were wrong.
:12:10. > :12:11.the World Trade Organisation was England governor was wrong. Everyone
:12:12. > :12:22.is wrong, except for them. Rubbish. England governor was wrong. Everyone
:12:23. > :12:25.Wait. I can't keep waiting, Paddy. I am going to set a challenge
:12:26. > :12:25.Wait. I can't keep waiting, Paddy. I will be interesting. Can they offer
:12:26. > :12:39.the name of a will be interesting. Can they offer
:12:40. > :12:44.world economy, just as we are coming out of recession and about to be
:12:45. > :12:47.plunged back into it? That is what they are saying. Are they wrong? On
:12:48. > :12:52.the question, on the Treasury, they are saying. Are they wrong? On
:12:53. > :12:56.be frank and honest, all politicians will use negative campaigning at
:12:57. > :13:00.some point if it suits them. But if you are going to do it, at least you
:13:01. > :13:05.have to be decent about doing it. The thing about the Treasury report
:13:06. > :13:09.was that it was cringingly inept. I was embarrassed that it came out of
:13:10. > :13:10.the Treasury which I helped get elected, and I think Gordon Brown
:13:11. > :13:16.would have blushed at the elected, and I think Gordon Brown
:13:17. > :13:23.particular report. Since Paddy wants an explanation, they invented this
:13:24. > :13:25.particular report. Since Paddy wants statistic, GDP per household, never
:13:26. > :13:28.used anywhere else in government, never used in the Budget, never used
:13:29. > :13:38.anywhere else. According have GDP per household of ?68,000.
:13:39. > :13:44.2030, they are talking about. What they said was that although the
:13:45. > :13:47.economy would continue to grow, whether inside or outside the
:13:48. > :13:48.European Union, they believed it would grow slightly more slowly
:13:49. > :13:49.outside the European Union. they said, if you make the
:13:50. > :13:56.assumption they said, if you make the
:13:57. > :14:01.migrants coming in, you end up with this number of 4300. Hang on a
:14:02. > :14:07.second. In order for George Osborne to be right, we have to have no
:14:08. > :14:10.trade deals outside the European Union, have 3 million migrants,
:14:11. > :14:17.which blows apart the Conservative election pledges. And they have to
:14:18. > :14:20.be right in their predictions for 60 consecutive quarters. Remember,
:14:21. > :14:23.today we got the number that we did not get the number correct from our
:14:24. > :14:29.prediction in October last year. So this seems to be a lot for us to
:14:30. > :14:29.swallow. Frankly, it was an incredible assessment.
:14:30. > :14:41.APPLAUSE Can you, or maybe Kate, can pick up
:14:42. > :14:47.on the point Paddy made, which is there are a whole host of these
:14:48. > :14:52.reports and the Institute for Fiscal Studies says they are mostly in the
:14:53. > :15:02.same direction. Kate was asked if she could name a reputable
:15:03. > :15:04.institution. I've got one. The CBI actually commissioned the PWC, Price
:15:05. > :15:10.Waterhouse Cooper. They did a report which said yes, of course, when we
:15:11. > :15:16.leave immediately, there'll be some uncertainty, but, as the months go
:15:17. > :15:21.on, growth will grow, and it is very, very clear that there are
:15:22. > :15:24.other independent reports, Capital Economics, the Tosca fund, I don't
:15:25. > :15:27.know the details because fundamentally to me, yes, the
:15:28. > :15:32.economics is very important and we are going to get all the different
:15:33. > :15:36.views and there'll be scare stories. For me, the most important thing
:15:37. > :15:41.about why I want people to leave is because I genuinely believe that
:15:42. > :15:43.we've lost control of our borders and immigration system but, more
:15:44. > :15:47.importantly, we are not an independent country any more. We are
:15:48. > :15:49.not. And that is to me the most important thing.
:15:50. > :15:54.APPLAUSE Members of audience. The man in the
:15:55. > :15:59.checked shirt? I did some maths on the back of an envelope as well. I'm
:16:00. > :16:04.an economist and financial adviser and I took the ?10 billion of net
:16:05. > :16:09.savings that we'd make if we left Europe and I multiplied those by 14
:16:10. > :16:13.which is the number of years up to 2030. I then used the economic
:16:14. > :16:17.credit multiplier because you have the benefit of spending that ?10
:16:18. > :16:23.billion, the taxes raised on it and the growth and so on. The figure I
:16:24. > :16:29.came out with was ?1.5 trillion which means if we leave the European
:16:30. > :16:31.Union we'll be able to fund and repay the national debt.
:16:32. > :16:39.CHEERING AND APPLAUSE. .
:16:40. > :16:48.You should be in the Treasury. Kate Hoey thinks you should be in the
:16:49. > :16:51.Treasury. You were asked to name one of the international accredited
:16:52. > :16:55.institutions. I wasn't tonight. You have named none of them so far, so
:16:56. > :17:02.it would be interesting to see... They all got it wrong on the euro
:17:03. > :17:06.panel, you know that. Hang on a second. OK, fine, I accept, they
:17:07. > :17:17.could all be wrong. These guys could be right. Are you going to bet the
:17:18. > :17:22.whole country on that possibility? If you are, that is fine. If you are
:17:23. > :17:26.going to get the whole country on a pious hope, rather than serious
:17:27. > :17:29.studies from the international institutions that are respected
:17:30. > :17:35.around the world, then you are right to vote Brexit. Now, can I answer
:17:36. > :17:39.the question? No, the man over there first, you can come back. Does Liam
:17:40. > :17:44.Fox not feel embarrassed at working for a Government that he can't
:17:45. > :17:51.support? I mean, they are so inept, he's just said so. The Government is
:17:52. > :17:56.so inept? Yes. I said the report was inept, not the Government. I think
:17:57. > :18:00.that... The Chancellor... We have different views. We are not going to
:18:01. > :18:05.be identical politicians, the public don't want that. What I would say to
:18:06. > :18:09.Paddy... No, no, no, you said the Chancellor was inept. I didn't say
:18:10. > :18:14.the Government was inept. You said the Chancellor was. I said the
:18:15. > :18:21.report was. You didn't say the Chancellor was? No, I said it was
:18:22. > :18:27.cringing. Does it embarrass you? To Paddy's point on the IMF... Never
:18:28. > :18:34.mind Paddy. Every single one, not just the IMF, the OECD, the Governor
:18:35. > :18:38.More of the economics, all of themment. They all said you should
:18:39. > :18:44.join the euro, the Bank of England said it would be good for the
:18:45. > :18:47.European Union for us to join. Thank goodness we didn't. I'll go around
:18:48. > :18:52.the table. The woman up there first in the second row from the back?
:18:53. > :18:55.How do you think the Government will be able to guarantee income for
:18:56. > :19:01.farmers if we left the European Union? They get so much of their
:19:02. > :19:06.income, 55% of their income in 2015 came from being linked with the
:19:07. > :19:11.European Union direct payments. How would the Government be able to
:19:12. > :19:15.guarantee that? Leanne Wood, you have farmers in Wales that benefit
:19:16. > :19:19.from that? I'm really glad use raised that question. We have
:19:20. > :19:24.farmers scratching a living on hillsides trying very hard to make
:19:25. > :19:28.those businesses a success and I'm very concerned about what will
:19:29. > :19:33.happen to those because I have no faith in Westminster whoever is in
:19:34. > :19:43.Government to redistribute that wealth in a fair way. They don't
:19:44. > :19:45.have a good record on that. So you trust the Europeans better than
:19:46. > :19:51.Westminster on this? They are doing that now, there is an element of
:19:52. > :19:55.redistribution. But you think a Westminster Government would pull
:19:56. > :19:59.back on that if Brexit came about? My party has been campaigning for
:20:00. > :20:03.years with parity. We have had no success in terms of sorting out our
:20:04. > :20:08.financial situation. Can I just respond to this point about
:20:09. > :20:12.information and figures and the way in which this information is put
:20:13. > :20:15.out. People are desperate for accurate information, for facts.
:20:16. > :20:20.This is a difficult decision and people want to make an informed
:20:21. > :20:25.decision based on the correct information. The way that figures
:20:26. > :20:30.are being banded about, economic forecasts, way into the future, are
:20:31. > :20:35.impossible to predict. Today, it's not just the one side, it's the
:20:36. > :20:41.Brexit supporters as well. We had the head of the Office for National
:20:42. > :20:46.Statistics who's questioned the figure of ?350 million that's been
:20:47. > :20:49.used saying that that's how much it costs us to remain a member of the
:20:50. > :20:52.EU. There are questions on both sides and what people want now, in
:20:53. > :20:57.order to make that informed choice on this very important question, is
:20:58. > :21:01.to have facts. The problem with facts, Leanne, they can be interpred
:21:02. > :21:05.differently. If I hold up this glass of water in my right hand it's half
:21:06. > :21:10.full, if I move it to my left hand, it's half empty. You know, just on
:21:11. > :21:14.the farming aspect though, 40% of the money we give into the EU goes
:21:15. > :21:20.to subsidising farmers all over the EU. We are subsidising French
:21:21. > :21:25.farmers, far, far more than our farmers are getting. Before we
:21:26. > :21:35.joined the Common Market, farmers got subsidies.
:21:36. > :21:38.Tim Martin? The farming and agricultural minister, George
:21:39. > :21:42.Eustace, has said that the farming community will continue to be
:21:43. > :21:50.supported to the same level it is within the EU. There is no real EU
:21:51. > :21:56.money. We send money out to the EU and it then comes back to support
:21:57. > :22:03.farmers with strings attached. It's not a very efficient way of running.
:22:04. > :22:08.Why did the NFU vote to remain then? They represent them? Maybe they
:22:09. > :22:19.don't believe George Eustace, I but I do. Liam Fox? Paddy Ashdown? In
:22:20. > :22:23.terms of facts, Leanne is right, ?350 million they have been talking
:22:24. > :22:28.about, actually that was checked and on the report announced today by Sir
:22:29. > :22:33.Andrew Dilnot in the UK statisticical agency whose job it is
:22:34. > :22:39.to provide statistics are accurate, says that ?350 million is totally
:22:40. > :22:43.inaccurate. He says it's misleading. The actual figure we give to Europe
:22:44. > :22:48.after taking account of the rebates that come back is about ?7.
:22:49. > :22:52.after taking account of the rebates billion, 30p per person per day in
:22:53. > :22:55.Britain. I would like to address our economist friend over
:22:56. > :22:59.Britain. I would like to address our take that as ?7 billion or ?8
:23:00. > :23:04.billion that we pay into the European Union. If we leave, the
:23:05. > :23:08.likelihood, you can already see the pound dropping, you are already
:23:09. > :23:15.beginning to see Britain's credit rating being held in question by
:23:16. > :23:21.Standard Poor. If I think it's the case, which is likely, that an exit
:23:22. > :23:27.leads to one quarter of one percent on increase in interest rates on
:23:28. > :23:31.mountain of debt, that ?7 billion is swallowed up the day after many,
:23:32. > :23:41.many times over, leaving aside text true cost of ?23 billion. -- the
:23:42. > :23:43.extra cost of ?23 billion in tariffs that is going to be loaded on the
:23:44. > :23:50.cost of British goods and that is going to be loaded on the
:23:51. > :23:53.which shall be paid for, not by your money, but in lost jobs and
:23:54. > :23:54.which shall be paid for, not by your businesses. This doesn't sound to me
:23:55. > :23:59.like a good deal. We did say we shouldn't take too
:24:00. > :24:06.much account of the figures being banded
:24:07. > :24:07.much account of the figures being it's the national statisticical
:24:08. > :24:10.agency designed to be able to ensure that figures are correct who
:24:11. > :24:14.criticise the ?350 million, the audience should know that. In
:24:15. > :24:19.terms of farming, to go the audience should know that. In
:24:20. > :24:23.will determine whether we get a the audience should know that. In
:24:24. > :24:30.deal or not, is what is in our mutual interest. We actually import
:24:31. > :24:32.the figure that year was ?19.4 billion worth of agricultural goods
:24:33. > :24:36.from Europe more than we sell to them. It's actually in their
:24:37. > :24:40.interests, even more than ours, to get a Free Trade Agreement,
:24:41. > :24:47.including on agricultural goods. The MFU report actually said, if we
:24:48. > :24:53.assume we have a free trade deal and continue subsidies at the level we
:24:54. > :24:54.do now and I don't know any party proposing anything else, all
:24:55. > :24:58.agricultural sectors proposing anything else, all
:24:59. > :25:03.It doesn't do any good to scare people into thinking the benefits
:25:04. > :25:10.will be less. You, Sir, in the blue suit?
:25:11. > :25:17.will be less. one of the things you asked Kate
:25:18. > :25:20.about earlier was evidence and you are banding around figures that
:25:21. > :25:25.didn't protect the recession and how good or bad the recovery would be.
:25:26. > :25:30.It's not good enough. You with the spectacles in front of him? In the
:25:31. > :25:33.short-term, we see that maybe there'll be a struggle before we can
:25:34. > :25:36.actually negotiate all of these free trade deals. Maybe in the long run
:25:37. > :25:41.you can make the case that it's better to exit but in the short-term
:25:42. > :25:46.there'll be significant pain. More members of audience. You, Sir? Yes.
:25:47. > :25:50.I wonder if at the end of the day, the figures are going to be what
:25:51. > :25:53.people make their decision around. It's very difficult to feel that you
:25:54. > :25:56.can believe any particular set of figures so much that you can rely on
:25:57. > :26:00.them. I believe people will vote on how they feel about the EU and
:26:01. > :26:04.nothing else. APPLAUSE
:26:05. > :26:11.You, Sir? The point I would like to make is, it's all a mess. I have
:26:12. > :26:14.more confidence that we can sort out our own mess and that mess can be
:26:15. > :26:18.sorted out in Brussels. This whole debate is really, and I know Paddy
:26:19. > :26:24.doesn't like me using this word, but it's the establishment who're lining
:26:25. > :26:32.up and uniting against ordinary people who want to have a say for
:26:33. > :26:37.the first time in 40 years. Why does that... Sorry, if it is the
:26:38. > :26:43.establishment... Why is Boris in it? I how come you are one of only seven
:26:44. > :26:46.Labour MPs? No, 12. Going for Brexit. Is the Labour Party the
:26:47. > :26:51.establishment? Is Jeremy Corbyn the establishment? Well, of course,
:26:52. > :26:55.Jeremy's position on the EU is very interesting because, of course,
:26:56. > :26:59.Jeremy was in every single lobby with myself and others right through
:27:00. > :27:03.the last 20 years. But Jeremy is now leader of the party, he wants to
:27:04. > :27:06.keep the party together, he doesn't want to be seeing the divisions that
:27:07. > :27:11.perhaps there are in the Conservatives. And he doesn't want
:27:12. > :27:17.to come on the same side as you, Kate, does he? He actually has a
:27:18. > :27:22.very different view which I support, of what should happen in the EU. I
:27:23. > :27:25.don't believe it will ever reform and therefore I think there's no
:27:26. > :27:28.point in staying in. We are half way through the
:27:29. > :27:34.programme now. More questions. You, madam? Why does everything have to
:27:35. > :27:39.be about the bottom line? Why? Do we not have some vision here? Some
:27:40. > :27:44.leadership? Why are we retreating into petty nationalism? Why do we
:27:45. > :27:47.not want to work with our European friends and neighbour to reform a
:27:48. > :27:55.deeply flawed institution, but to make it better?
:27:56. > :28:03.APPLAUSE I think it's very important to understand that the Europeans are
:28:04. > :28:08.our friends and what's important for them, as important for us, and it's
:28:09. > :28:13.been shown to be the greatest protection against autocrats and
:28:14. > :28:19.war, is that they regain control of their own democracy. And that's what
:28:20. > :28:25.will protect us in the future, so it isn't being a Little Britain to want
:28:26. > :28:30.to have democracy, it's slowly being eroded and that's very dangerous. Is
:28:31. > :28:35.it really a friendly gesture? Let her come back and then Paddy you can
:28:36. > :28:38.reply? Is it really a friendly gesture to throw your toys out of
:28:39. > :28:40.the pram and say you are not going to play any more because it doesn't
:28:41. > :28:54.suit you? We are not doing that. She is right, the great British
:28:55. > :28:57.tradition is to getting gauged. But you are also entirely right in
:28:58. > :29:05.saying this is not just about economics. -- to get engaged. Liam
:29:06. > :29:11.said it was due to Nato that we are at peace. Well, every single one of
:29:12. > :29:14.our Nato allies, and there is no exception, is saying, please do not
:29:15. > :29:19.leave Europe, Nato will be weaker in consequence. Every one of our
:29:20. > :29:24.European allies is saying the same thing. Every one of our Commonwealth
:29:25. > :29:27.allies is saying the same thing. Only one man in our neighbourhood
:29:28. > :29:34.wants us to leave and begin to break up the European Union and you know
:29:35. > :29:38.his name. It is Vladimir Putin. His strategy for the last 30 years has
:29:39. > :29:44.been to divide Europe, to use energy, to use tanks to capture
:29:45. > :29:48.European territory. If you move now to break up the European Union, then
:29:49. > :29:53.I can tell you the one person who will cheer is not a single one of
:29:54. > :30:04.our allies or our friends, but the Russian leader. Vote Brexit, it is
:30:05. > :30:09.what Putin wants you to do. Liam Fox is a former Defence Secretary. What
:30:10. > :30:18.do you make of that? I think it is nonsensical. Paddy, allow him to
:30:19. > :30:23.answer, please. We were in the EU when he annexed Crimea. We were in
:30:24. > :30:27.the EU when he invaded Georgia. It did not seem to dissuade him from
:30:28. > :30:32.those actions. I think that is a ridiculous argument. I want to take
:30:33. > :30:36.up the point the gentleman right at the back made, with the grey hair,
:30:37. > :30:43.if you don't mind me saying that. I do agree. I think this is much more
:30:44. > :30:47.than just about money. And for me and for many people this is about
:30:48. > :30:52.being a self-governing democracy, able to make our own laws, control
:30:53. > :30:58.our borders and control our own money, and to escape from the
:30:59. > :31:01.financial quicksand of the euro. Because the more that the euro drags
:31:02. > :31:07.down the European economy, and I'm not sure people understand this, and
:31:08. > :31:11.the more our economy is successful, the bigger our contribution to the
:31:12. > :31:15.European Union gets. We end up funding a project we stayed out of
:31:16. > :31:19.because we correctly predicted it would fail. Can I ask a very simple
:31:20. > :31:25.question to which there is isn't what answer? Name me one Nato leader
:31:26. > :31:31.of one of our partners in Nato who agrees that Brexit is a good idea
:31:32. > :31:35.for our common security? Just one. Many of them are in the European
:31:36. > :31:40.Union because we give them free British money. Of course they will
:31:41. > :31:44.want us to stay. So you can't name one of our friends who agrees with
:31:45. > :31:54.you. That is the answer. We have to move on. Do you want a last word,
:31:55. > :31:59.Madam? I don't remember a time when we were not part of the common
:32:00. > :32:02.market. I want more information. Facts and figures can be interpreted
:32:03. > :32:06.in different ways but I want to know what is going to happen. I don't
:32:07. > :32:10.know what will happen if we come out. I am on the fence. I know which
:32:11. > :32:15.side I prefer but I am torn and I get bombarded with information.
:32:16. > :32:22.Facts and figures are bombarded. What is going to happen to us? Does
:32:23. > :32:29.this kind of discussion help you? This is a dangerous question to ask.
:32:30. > :32:32.Or does it make it worse? Oui unfortunately, it doesn't. Getting
:32:33. > :32:35.facts and figures, the gentleman in front of me is probably very clever
:32:36. > :32:40.at economics and his maths is probably very good, but he said he
:32:41. > :32:46.wrote it on the back of envelope. We know what is going to happen. How
:32:47. > :32:50.will you make up your mind if you have this and you are bombarded with
:32:51. > :32:55.all this? I'm concerned about immigration, but I also want this
:32:56. > :32:58.country to grow. I want money, investment and jobs for people in
:32:59. > :33:04.this area but I live in an area where farmers need support. We do
:33:05. > :33:11.get money from the EU. It is our money. I know it is our money. I am
:33:12. > :33:15.very torn. The first thing to do is to look at Australia, New Zealand,
:33:16. > :33:18.Canada, the United States, Singapore, countries which are
:33:19. > :33:26.independent democracies. But they are very different to us. When you
:33:27. > :33:30.going to make up your mind? I am about 60-40. My husband is very
:33:31. > :33:41.opposite and we do debate things. Is that your husband next to you? No.
:33:42. > :33:48.He is at home. OK, thank you very much. All I can say is keep
:33:49. > :33:51.watching. We will be in Hull next week if you want to come and
:33:52. > :33:55.Manchester the week after that. I say that because if you want to make
:33:56. > :34:00.a note, there is the website address and our telephone number. Let's move
:34:01. > :34:04.on, because we will discuss the EU week after week. Let's take this
:34:05. > :34:11.question from Lisa Kelman, please, a medical student. What should Jeremy
:34:12. > :34:21.Hunt do to avoid an all-out strike by junior doctors? Resign.
:34:22. > :34:33.Shall we go on to the next question? Kate Hoey. Well, I think Jeremy Hunt
:34:34. > :34:35.is not facing Kate Hoey. Well, I think Jeremy Hunt
:34:36. > :34:41.next week situation going to be happening with
:34:42. > :34:47.the all out strike that is going to take place. I believe the time is
:34:48. > :34:51.for the Prime Minister, as I said earlier, who is spending an awful
:34:52. > :34:55.lot of time on the EU business, but actually this is an immediate
:34:56. > :35:00.crisis. I believe the Prime Minister should be taking control of this, he
:35:01. > :35:03.should be insisting that Jeremy Hunt, and personally I would move
:35:04. > :35:08.him and get a new Secretary of State. I think that would be a great
:35:09. > :35:13.addition to making things work, because there is no doubt, and I
:35:14. > :35:17.know from doctors in my constituency how little respect now they have for
:35:18. > :35:21.the Secretary of State for Health. If you have that lack of respect,
:35:22. > :35:25.how can you even start to begin to negotiate? I would say to the Prime
:35:26. > :35:28.Minister, your responsibility, get everybody round the table in Downing
:35:29. > :35:34.Street even if we have to have tea and biscuits or whatever they used
:35:35. > :35:35.to do, and realise this will not be solved by Jeremy Hunt.
:35:36. > :35:46.APPLAUSE One thing that makes no sense to me
:35:47. > :35:50.is how the BMA can say that the new junior doctors' contracts are safe
:35:51. > :35:54.and will put patients at risk and possibly increased death rates or
:35:55. > :35:58.whatever, but then the BMA can organise a strike next week or the
:35:59. > :36:04.week after, where emergency cover isn't going to be covered, if that
:36:05. > :36:09.makes sense. Surely that is going to be just as dangerous as, if the new
:36:10. > :36:18.contract is dangerous, I can't think of the words... Equal danger. Yes.
:36:19. > :36:24.Liam Fox, you were a doctor, what do you make of it? As someone who as a
:36:25. > :36:27.junior doctor in the NHS worked many more hours than junior doctors
:36:28. > :36:34.today, I am glad we got away from where we were then. I can remember
:36:35. > :36:38.doing in obstetrics what is called A1 in two. We had to work the day,
:36:39. > :36:42.the next day and the next night, and the next day and the next night.
:36:43. > :36:45.That was dangerous, and one of the good things about the contract is
:36:46. > :36:49.the reduction in total hours doctors are allowed to work from 91 hours
:36:50. > :36:57.each week, which is still a great number, down to 72. Is that the EU
:36:58. > :37:02.working time directive? No, this is the government's new contract, and I
:37:03. > :37:05.think that is positive. I have a problem with doctors going on strike
:37:06. > :37:08.and the General Medical Council have said it may lead to doctors being
:37:09. > :37:15.potentially struck off if patients were to die as a result of their
:37:16. > :37:18.actions. My personal view is that if we don't allow the police to strike
:37:19. > :37:22.and do not allow the Armed Forces to strike, there is quite a strong
:37:23. > :37:26.argument to say we should not allow doctors to strike and in return we
:37:27. > :37:31.cut them a special deal. What should the Secretary of State do? I think
:37:32. > :37:35.he needs to keep talking. 90% of the contract is already agreed. I think
:37:36. > :37:39.it is wrong for the doctors to go on strike. There is a question here
:37:40. > :37:44.about the seven days. What are we trying to achieve? Is it better
:37:45. > :37:49.seven days emergency cover, or a full seven-day service with elective
:37:50. > :37:55.surgery and all those services running? If that is what we want, it
:37:56. > :38:00.is more than just doctors. If you want a full service you have to have
:38:01. > :38:06.haematologists, radiographers, dieticians all in the time. Someone
:38:07. > :38:09.shouted, you tell us, because you support the government on this. I
:38:10. > :38:14.would like to get to that full seven-day service, because patients
:38:15. > :38:19.do not get ill according to what day of the week it is. That means more
:38:20. > :38:24.money. I think that is right in the long term it requires more money. It
:38:25. > :38:28.requires a change in how we organise our health care. Everyone should
:38:29. > :38:31.take a deep breath, get back into the talks and recognise the one
:38:32. > :38:34.thing that seems to be left out of this, that the most important people
:38:35. > :38:38.in the health service are not the doctors or anyone else but the
:38:39. > :38:40.patients, and the quality of health care patients are getting when they
:38:41. > :38:49.want it and at a level of quality they deserve. You, sir, with the
:38:50. > :38:54.moustache. Easily identifiable. I would like to make an observation.
:38:55. > :38:57.David Cameron used as one of his sound bites to get elected that
:38:58. > :39:03.there will be no top-down restructure of the NHS. And I will
:39:04. > :39:10.cut the deficit, not the NHS. They have totally gone against that, and
:39:11. > :39:14.in terms of doctors going on strike, I served in the Fire Service. I have
:39:15. > :39:18.been on strike. We didn't want to do it, it was a horrible place to be. I
:39:19. > :39:25.think they are being forced into this situation. There is a seven-day
:39:26. > :39:33.NHS at the moment and we have had it for many years. And it was setup in
:39:34. > :39:37.the time of greatest posterity and has served this country well.
:39:38. > :39:43.Nothing is more valuable than health. Hold on, let's come to the
:39:44. > :39:52.point. What do you think Jeremy Hunt should do? Resign. Resign now. Tim
:39:53. > :39:55.Martin. I think the issue of the health service in Britain suffers
:39:56. > :40:00.mostly because it is a sacred cow and we don't, unlike car
:40:01. > :40:08.manufacturing and many other types of things, we don't much ever
:40:09. > :40:12.compared how it works in France, how it works in New Zealand, in
:40:13. > :40:18.Australia, where I think in many ways they have superior systems.
:40:19. > :40:22.It's very difficult working in the NHS, from people I speak to. It is a
:40:23. > :40:30.top-down runs and I think it needs fundamental reform, and the debate
:40:31. > :40:34.which Liam Fox has said. If you want a health service, and there is
:40:35. > :40:41.really nowhere else to go, I don't think you can go on strike. So what
:40:42. > :40:45.should Jeremy Hunt do? Running my business, I would never impose a new
:40:46. > :40:50.contract on our managers without their agreement first, because it is
:40:51. > :40:53.too confrontational. If you can't get them to agree it, you can't do
:40:54. > :40:58.it. APPLAUSE
:40:59. > :41:05.Leanne Wood. In answer to the question, he should talk to them and
:41:06. > :41:11.he should show them some respect. We have a big problem in the NHS in
:41:12. > :41:14.terms of recruiting doctors. In Wales, we have fewer doctors per
:41:15. > :41:23.head of population than any country in the EU. In fact, there are only
:41:24. > :41:27.three other countries, sorry, in the UK, and only three other countries
:41:28. > :41:30.in the EU with fewer doctors per head of population than we do. We
:41:31. > :41:36.are not having a strike in Wales or Scotland. We take a different
:41:37. > :41:40.approach in Wales and Scotland. I would say to any doctors who are
:41:41. > :41:50.feeling disrespected and unloved by your government, come to Wales. A
:41:51. > :41:55.recruiting Sergeant! Lisa Kelman, who asked the question, what do you
:41:56. > :41:59.think of what you have heard so far? I think Jeremy Hunt should apologise
:42:00. > :42:04.and say, sorry I missed lead the public and caused the hunt effect. I
:42:05. > :42:10.am sorry I have conflated and uncosted mannequin toe with punching
:42:11. > :42:14.junior doctors. I am sorry that I lied this week, saying 500 people
:42:15. > :42:21.have ready sign this contract. No, they haven't. That is what he needs
:42:22. > :42:26.to do. Paddy Ashdown. Tim, I agree with what you said at the end, that
:42:27. > :42:29.if you are going to be a leader, a manager, you really have to bring
:42:30. > :42:36.people with you. I did not agree with you earlier. No need to raise
:42:37. > :42:41.our differences, Paddy! I think we have the best health service in the
:42:42. > :42:44.world and one of the cheapest. I don't Australia is better and I have
:42:45. > :42:50.spent a lot of time there, my family is there. So what should happen now?
:42:51. > :42:55.I think this has become a sort of match over conflict. You can't back
:42:56. > :43:01.down, on both sides. Sensible solutions are being avoided,
:43:02. > :43:04.invaded. So I think it is time, the gentleman at the back said resign,
:43:05. > :43:08.and I think that has most of our support. But I think it is time for
:43:09. > :43:13.the Prime Minister to say it is clear that Jeremy Hunt Keller was
:43:14. > :43:18.all this problem sensibly. Therefore, it probably is time for
:43:19. > :43:25.him to stand aside. -- Jeremy Hunt cannot resolve this sensibly. I
:43:26. > :43:29.don't say that you should not be taking industrial action. You have
:43:30. > :43:33.the public on your side. You are winning this. Be careful about
:43:34. > :43:39.raising the stakes. I see no reason to do that whatsoever. Maintain the
:43:40. > :43:44.pressure as it is, keep the public on your side. If you move up a notch
:43:45. > :43:48.on this and there are some devastating consequences, a tragedy,
:43:49. > :43:52.you will find that that crucial public support, which you need to
:43:53. > :43:56.win this, is going to be lost. My advice is that Jeremy Hunt goes, and
:43:57. > :44:02.if I was a junior doctor I would not ratchet up the pressure.
:44:03. > :44:08.You've just stated that the NHS was brilliant, which it is, and it's the
:44:09. > :44:11.cheapest, and that's nothing to be proud of. Britain is the fifth
:44:12. > :44:16.wealthiest country on the planet. Fair enough. It does not get the
:44:17. > :44:21.funding it deserves. France, Germany and Holland have more funding, more
:44:22. > :44:25.doctors per head per Capita. We are in crisis and the doctors are saying
:44:26. > :44:29.this as well, and we don't work seven days a week full throttle, and
:44:30. > :44:34.that's what we've got to do to accommodate the number of people in
:44:35. > :44:39.this country. Now, I'm a Governor, I kind of know what I'm talking about
:44:40. > :44:43.a bit. Very fair admonishment, best value for money I should have said
:44:44. > :44:50.as well, not the cheapest. What do you think Jeremy Hunt should do? I
:44:51. > :44:54.don't think doctors are creatures that are political, except for you
:44:55. > :44:57.Mr Fox probably. I think if they are saying something we have got to
:44:58. > :45:00.listen. They are intelligent and dedicated to their jobs, we should
:45:01. > :45:07.be listening. A last point from the woman up there? Liam Fox asked us to
:45:08. > :45:12.put patients first and asked what they would want. I'm a junior doctor
:45:13. > :45:15.and have been for five years and I know from picketing and opinion
:45:16. > :45:19.polls show that Paddy is rite, the public are on our side, they
:45:20. > :45:24.understand. If we had a referendum on this tomorrow, England would vote
:45:25. > :45:28.no to imposition of this contract. Consultants would vote no, the Royal
:45:29. > :45:37.Colleges would vote no, patients would vote no. The NHS belongs to
:45:38. > :45:42.all of us, not Jeremy Hunt. Sorry, let me get a microphone to you? I'm
:45:43. > :45:46.sorry, it's absolute rubbish. I used to work in A and before you do
:45:47. > :45:52.extra hours, you opt in right. With any job now you opt in, there's a
:45:53. > :45:58.scheme, you either opt in or out. They do lots of hours because they
:45:59. > :46:02.push to get more money at weekends. Nobody can force anybody to do over
:46:03. > :46:05.the 50 hours a week. They choose to physically do it. They put the
:46:06. > :46:10.patients at risk themselves, I'm sorry, it's all about money and it's
:46:11. > :46:12.wrong. Anybody who goes AWOL and doesn't turn up for a shift while
:46:13. > :46:15.they are on strike should doesn't turn up for a shift while
:46:16. > :46:18.If you were in the military, you would get arrested for going AWOL.
:46:19. > :46:24.They know the NHS... HECKLING. No, the NHS don't want
:46:25. > :46:28.them going off work. They are technically going AWOL not turning
:46:29. > :46:31.up for their shifts, making people anxious by cancelling appointments,
:46:32. > :46:35.it's their choice. I'm sorry, anybody else in any other job would
:46:36. > :46:43.be sacked for doing that. Shame on them. What do you make of her point?
:46:44. > :46:49.My mother 21 years ago, worked for 21 years in the NHS, she had cancer,
:46:50. > :46:56.she was saved in this very town. People like you, you're a traitor to
:46:57. > :47:01.your profession, you stand behind, you are an affront to medicine, you
:47:02. > :47:03.stand there thinking Jeremy Hunt's got it Allwright here, the guy was a
:47:04. > :47:08.bloody editor on a book got it Allwright here, the guy was a
:47:09. > :47:11.a private NHS, you know, we need to move the funding he said. It's
:47:12. > :47:14.bloody suicide, it's the best thing about this country. You said it's a
:47:15. > :47:18.bit sacred cow. Do you know about this country. You said it's a
:47:19. > :47:21.is, whatever happens to me, any part of this country, I can go to a
:47:22. > :47:23.hospital and you can say what you want it's a Sunday so you are
:47:24. > :47:24.definitely going to want it's a Sunday so you are
:47:25. > :47:30.to be ashamed want it's a Sunday so you are
:47:31. > :47:36.Liam Fox? You have been attacked there and
:47:37. > :47:41.Liam Fox? You have been attacked from the centre saying doctors are
:47:42. > :47:43.the hours anyway? I don't think the doctors are
:47:44. > :47:47.the hours anyway? I don't think the think there is a real problem moving
:47:48. > :47:52.from the system we had to a new one and the fact that we are going from
:47:53. > :47:57.what was a Saturday working was regarded as totally different in
:47:58. > :48:01.terms of structural pay now between seven and five on a Saturday is
:48:02. > :48:08.regarded as part of the working week, there are bonuses if you work
:48:09. > :48:15.more than one in four. Leanne, a point on what she said - you don't
:48:16. > :48:19.just put it in the mixer and there are doctors - you have to attract
:48:20. > :48:23.people into medicine and if we want to attract young people into
:48:24. > :48:26.medicine, we have got to give them very clear rewards and to us why
:48:27. > :48:30.they do it. It's not a job, it's a vocation and sometimes we forget
:48:31. > :48:35.that and we've got a system that, in our view, is too target orientated,
:48:36. > :48:38.bureaucratic and, the only basis on which it's ethical to treat patients
:48:39. > :48:40.is the clinical need of the patients. We've got to get back to a
:48:41. > :48:46.medical system that's much patients. We've got to get back to a
:48:47. > :48:50.responsive to that ethos of medicine and stop worrying about waiting
:48:51. > :48:53.times and worry about the quality of the output for the patient because
:48:54. > :48:57.it's the quality of the care for the patient that brings people into
:48:58. > :49:01.medicine in the first place. If all these other targets for waiting
:49:02. > :49:06.times and so on are put ahead of those things, that is a diminished
:49:07. > :49:07.vocational reward for doctors. Unless people feel like they are
:49:08. > :49:13.being valued for those reasons, Unless people feel like they are
:49:14. > :49:17.people will not be there. If the hours are too long, they are not
:49:18. > :49:23.going to do it. They were long hours when I came in and I was still
:49:24. > :49:26.attracted to the NHS. It's not attractive at the moment, people are
:49:27. > :49:30.off too long sick with stress. These are the kind of issues that have to
:49:31. > :49:33.be addressed if we want to attract good quality doctors into the Health
:49:34. > :49:38.Service and we can do it. New Zealand have done it by
:49:39. > :49:41.incentivising doctors to say in the country after they've qualified by
:49:42. > :49:46.having their tuition fees paid off, so there are ways you can make being
:49:47. > :49:52.a doctor here much more attractive than it is at present. We have under
:49:53. > :49:57.ten minutes and I want to take one more question from Lesley Gillard?
:49:58. > :50:02.Happens to be a student nurse. I don't know if it's an NHS question
:50:03. > :50:07.but let's have your question? As we have a minimum wage, should we
:50:08. > :50:08.introduce a maximum wage? This week, the...
:50:09. > :50:19.LAUGHTER. The minimum wage went up to ?7. 20
:50:20. > :50:25.an hour this week and what perhaps on your mind is Bob Dudley from BP
:50:26. > :50:29.getting a ?14 million pay package. Tim Martin, you are not short of a
:50:30. > :50:38.bob or two? ! Thank you for pointing that out, David! It's a tricky one.
:50:39. > :50:42.I think that people are very fed up with the enormous amounts being
:50:43. > :50:46.earned by Plc companies, that goes without saying. You are grappling
:50:47. > :50:50.with the great difficulty of wanting to attract the best businesses and
:50:51. > :50:54.the biggest businesses to Britain at the same time as finding it
:50:55. > :51:00.repugnant that the very biggest business just about is paying ?14
:51:01. > :51:03.million quid a year so I don't actually know the answer to that.
:51:04. > :51:09.They have remuneration committees and so on, the boards of directors
:51:10. > :51:13.are overseen by non-executive directors who're supposed to control
:51:14. > :51:16.this, but the problem is, the non-executive directors themselves
:51:17. > :51:20.are answering to people paid even more than the guys on board in many
:51:21. > :51:25.respects so it's a tricky one. I think you are going to have to put
:51:26. > :51:29.up with some pretty high pay to attract the biggest companies and if
:51:30. > :51:33.they come here, we get a lot of tax from them so you have to hold your
:51:34. > :51:38.nose and put up with it. What about the role of the shareholders, nearly
:51:39. > :51:41.60% voted against this and the chairman of the company said yes, we
:51:42. > :51:47.hear what you say but we'll in effect make our own decision? There
:51:48. > :51:51.are these votes going around, but they haven't really been effective.
:51:52. > :51:57.Shareholders own the company though, it's capitalism? Listen, I don't
:51:58. > :52:02.know whether you are against the living wage, you don't want to see
:52:03. > :52:07.the living wage? It was introduced by Wetherspoon in effect a year
:52:08. > :52:10.before anyone else, we pay 40% of our profits to people who work in
:52:11. > :52:13.our pubs, which is more than anyone else. I'll answer your question
:52:14. > :52:18.because you have said it three times. I would like an answer. Don't
:52:19. > :52:23.interrupt me so much and I'll give you one. What we've done, it's OK
:52:24. > :52:29.for Wetherspoon to pay a certain amount, I don't think it's going to
:52:30. > :52:35.work in Ashington or Carmarthen or a lot of places where the income
:52:36. > :52:41.levels are very low. If you pitch a very high living wage in order to
:52:42. > :52:44.get elected, this wasn't thought out by the pay commission, the previous
:52:45. > :52:49.coalition had which I thought was very good, this came from George and
:52:50. > :52:54.David after a couple of pints at Chequers saying, how can we get
:52:55. > :53:02.George elected the next time. He doesn't believe in living wages.
:53:03. > :53:06.Leanne Wood? You can't have a minimum wage in Carmarthen because
:53:07. > :53:11.it's too high? I remember the arguments being put when the minimum
:53:12. > :53:15.wage was debated in the 90s. Don't want it to be too high? The argument
:53:16. > :53:22.was businesses would close and people would be laid off and it just
:53:23. > :53:26.didn't happen. Because it was done scientifically Leanne by the Low Pay
:53:27. > :53:30.Commission, not by George and someone else having a couple of
:53:31. > :53:35.pints? The question was about the maximum wage and I think the idea of
:53:36. > :53:39.a maximum wage is a really good one because then you could avoid the
:53:40. > :53:44.situation that we've seen arising in recent years where the top
:53:45. > :53:48.executives of organisations are paying themselves big pay rises
:53:49. > :53:53.where those at the lowest paid end of the organisation have had to have
:53:54. > :53:58.either pay freezes or pay cuts. So if you had a maximum wage and pinned
:53:59. > :54:01.your lowest paid workers to your highest paid workers, then the
:54:02. > :54:05.highest paid workers would think very carefully about how much they
:54:06. > :54:09.give themselves a pay rise because they would have to bring everybody
:54:10. > :54:11.else up at the bottom as well. So yes, from me, yes to the maximum
:54:12. > :54:18.wage. You, Sir? I think instead of a
:54:19. > :54:21.maximum wage, I think it would be bet federal we made the people
:54:22. > :54:24.earning the maximum wages pay their proper taxes which, as you can see,
:54:25. > :54:34.is... APPLAUSE.
:54:35. > :54:37.You, Sir? I'm a business bank manager for small local businesses
:54:38. > :54:41.in Exeter and it's not the companies the size of Tim's that have got a
:54:42. > :54:45.problem, it's the small owner managed businesses having to put up
:54:46. > :54:48.their wages week in week out under pressure from their staff. That's
:54:49. > :54:54.who I'm worried about, not the big businesses. Because of the minimum
:54:55. > :54:59.wage? Because of the minimum wage and the staff expect step-ups as
:55:00. > :55:02.well and it's the business owners taking less money home and earning
:55:03. > :55:07.less profit because it's all going in wages now. Liam Fox? Well, to
:55:08. > :55:11.answer the previous point before that, the chap raised the point
:55:12. > :55:15.about the taxes. The richest 1% now in the UK pay 28% of all income tax
:55:16. > :55:20.which is the highest it's been. Can you answer him because we only have
:55:21. > :55:23.a moment left? I don't agree with a maximum wage. I'm sympathetic to the
:55:24. > :55:28.small businesses because they are the ones who provide more employment
:55:29. > :55:31.in the country tan anything else. I'm all for people making a profit
:55:32. > :55:36.and making a lot of money if that's what they work hard for, people who
:55:37. > :55:39.set up a small business, who grow it, sacrifice, don't have holidays,
:55:40. > :55:44.so that they can get their business going. His point is the minimum wage
:55:45. > :55:47.means other wages are going up? That is the point that's already been
:55:48. > :55:52.made, it's where you set that minimum wage. I'm all for the fact
:55:53. > :55:56.of having a system that there's a floor that no-one would fall below
:55:57. > :56:00.but I have a problem with setting a maximum because those who work hard
:56:01. > :56:04.ought to benefit from it. A big problem is the croney capitalism
:56:05. > :56:09.where bankers get paid huge bonuses when the banks are losing money.
:56:10. > :56:12.It's all very well get ago bonus and getting profit and income when you
:56:13. > :56:18.are generating wealth but you should not be getting the same rewards when
:56:19. > :56:23.you are consuming wealth. So in power shareholding. 60-seconds left.
:56:24. > :56:27.That's what you have to do. Their money is being robbed by those
:56:28. > :56:31.taking excessively high wages and if you give the shareholders the power,
:56:32. > :56:36.then I think you will find this is naturally correct in the interest of
:56:37. > :56:41.the shareholder. Presumably in BP the shareholders don't have the
:56:42. > :56:43.power in the articles? They can set the reel Rail Maritime and Transport
:56:44. > :56:51.Unionration every other year but this was the year in-between -- set
:56:52. > :56:54.the remuneration every other year. I agree with you on that. The public
:56:55. > :56:58.sector has a role to play too because I'm fed up with local
:56:59. > :57:01.authorities paying their Chief Executives and hospitals paying
:57:02. > :57:05.their Chief Executives huge amounts of money. They make the very same
:57:06. > :57:09.argument that you did, Tim, that you don't attract the best person. I
:57:10. > :57:12.remember public service when it was public service and the idea that
:57:13. > :57:15.we'd have to pay more and more to get people to run our local
:57:16. > :57:25.authorities and hospitals I think is wrong. OK. Time's up, I'm sorry.
:57:26. > :57:32.So, join us next week, we are going to be in Hull, Andy Burnham for
:57:33. > :57:35.Labour, Alex Salmond for the SNP among the panelists, it seems.
:57:36. > :57:40.after that, we are in Manchester. There are the addresses on the
:57:41. > :57:48.If you are listening on the website or call the number there:
:57:49. > :57:48.If you are listening on the this glory continues with Question
:57:49. > :57:53.Time extra time. It this glory continues with Question
:57:54. > :57:58.telly, my thanks to our panel, and to all of you who came to take part
:57:59. > :57:59.in this programme in Exeter. Until next Thursday from Question Time,
:58:00. > :58:03.good night.