0:00:02 > 0:00:05Tonight we're in Manchester, and this is Question Time.
0:00:10 > 0:00:13And a big welcome, whether you're watching on television,
0:00:13 > 0:00:14listening on the radio,
0:00:14 > 0:00:17to our audience here, of course, and to our panel.
0:00:17 > 0:00:18Tonight, the Conservative former
0:00:18 > 0:00:20Chancellor Of The Exchequer, Nigel Lawson,
0:00:20 > 0:00:24Labour's Shadow Energy Secretary, Lisa Nandy,
0:00:24 > 0:00:27the chief executive of Ryanair, Michael O'Leary,
0:00:27 > 0:00:31the Daily Mail's political editor at large, Isabel Oakeshott,
0:00:31 > 0:00:34and the poet and writer, Benjamin Zephaniah.
0:00:34 > 0:00:37APPLAUSE
0:00:47 > 0:00:50And... Thank you very much. And remember,
0:00:50 > 0:00:54Facebook, Twitter, and text, the text number is 83981,
0:00:54 > 0:00:55are all at your disposal if you want to
0:00:55 > 0:00:57rubbish what everybody here is saying.
0:00:57 > 0:01:00And they can't get back at you, so it's a good chance.
0:01:00 > 0:01:01OK, let's have our first question.
0:01:01 > 0:01:04It's from Sarah Reynolds, please, Sarah Reynolds.
0:01:04 > 0:01:08Few thought Leicester would win the Premier League
0:01:08 > 0:01:11or that Donald Trump would be the Republican nominee.
0:01:11 > 0:01:14What odds would the panel give
0:01:14 > 0:01:16on him becoming President of America.
0:01:16 > 0:01:20Well, Michael O'Leary, you're a horse racing man,
0:01:20 > 0:01:23what odds would you give on Donald Trump becoming President?
0:01:23 > 0:01:26Well, firstly, as a lifelong Man City fan,
0:01:26 > 0:01:27I should say I am one of the few who
0:01:27 > 0:01:30isn't particularly happy that Leicester won the Premiership.
0:01:30 > 0:01:33I would give Trump much better odds
0:01:33 > 0:01:35than most of the media presently give him.
0:01:35 > 0:01:38He was a huge outsider
0:01:38 > 0:01:40in the Republican primaries,
0:01:40 > 0:01:43he's won by quite some distance.
0:01:43 > 0:01:45And I think what will play to his strength is the fact that
0:01:45 > 0:01:47I think Hillary Clinton is an appalling, poor...
0:01:47 > 0:01:49is a poor candidate on the Democrats' side.
0:01:49 > 0:01:52You have an unusual election in that you have one of
0:01:52 > 0:01:54the most unpopular Democrat nominees taking on
0:01:54 > 0:01:56one of the most unpopular Republican nominees.
0:01:56 > 0:01:58But Trump reminds me in some ways like Reagan,
0:01:58 > 0:02:02hugely underestimated and yet electorally successful.
0:02:02 > 0:02:05The polls tell us he won't win in November, but
0:02:05 > 0:02:07I have a sneaking suspicion it's going to be much closer
0:02:07 > 0:02:09than people and the polls currently predict.
0:02:09 > 0:02:13And all these insults that he's been dishing out over the campaign,
0:02:13 > 0:02:14which Reagan never did,
0:02:14 > 0:02:17is that not going to make people turn away from him?
0:02:17 > 0:02:20I think that's the nature of the primaries, and, frankly,
0:02:20 > 0:02:22dishing out insults has served me very well as a career...
0:02:22 > 0:02:25LAUGHTER
0:02:25 > 0:02:28- Marketing...- You just insult your passengers, that's it.
0:02:28 > 0:02:29Oh, no, no, just the competition.
0:02:29 > 0:02:31We've been insulting the competition for many years,
0:02:31 > 0:02:33it's never held back Ryanair's progress.
0:02:33 > 0:02:35OK. Enough of the advertisement.
0:02:35 > 0:02:37Benjamin Zephaniah.
0:02:37 > 0:02:39Um, well...
0:02:39 > 0:02:42I think Leicester have done amazingly well, for a start.
0:02:42 > 0:02:45Um, I think this season, when it comes to football,
0:02:45 > 0:02:47has been a brilliant season of football.
0:02:47 > 0:02:49Apart from my team, Aston Villa.
0:02:49 > 0:02:52- LAUGHTER - Um, they've played really badly,
0:02:52 > 0:02:55but they've done it by hard work and passion and belief.
0:02:55 > 0:02:57I'm not sure if Donald Trump believes
0:02:57 > 0:03:00most of the things he says he's going to do.
0:03:00 > 0:03:03And if he does, I think he'll have a similar problem to the one that,
0:03:03 > 0:03:05um, Barack Obama had, in a very...
0:03:05 > 0:03:09in a different way, but a similar problem, in that,
0:03:09 > 0:03:10you promise all these things,
0:03:10 > 0:03:13you're going to do all these things when you get in power,
0:03:13 > 0:03:15but when you get in, the realpolitik
0:03:15 > 0:03:17of being able to do them is something else.
0:03:17 > 0:03:21So if Donald Trump got in power and he said he's going to build a wall
0:03:21 > 0:03:23to keep the Mexicans out, or he's going to invade China
0:03:23 > 0:03:25or whatever it is he's going to do,
0:03:25 > 0:03:28some people are going to come into his office and say, "Mr President,
0:03:28 > 0:03:32"this is the reality." And he's going to have to learn
0:03:32 > 0:03:36some really hard lessons about what politics is really about.
0:03:36 > 0:03:39It's really easy when you're kind of in opposition,
0:03:39 > 0:03:41or you are, kind of, you know,
0:03:41 > 0:03:44campaigning, to make lots of promises.
0:03:44 > 0:03:46But once you get in power, it's a different deal.
0:03:46 > 0:03:49And if he really did win power and he got anywhere near
0:03:49 > 0:03:52doing half of the things that he says he's going to do,
0:03:52 > 0:03:55my friends, it would be the end of the world as we know it.
0:03:55 > 0:03:58APPLAUSE
0:04:00 > 0:04:01Yes.
0:04:03 > 0:04:05Are you for Trump, the woman at the back there?
0:04:05 > 0:04:07No, I definitely am not for Trump.
0:04:07 > 0:04:09Um, I just wanted to say I really, um,
0:04:09 > 0:04:12I really think that's a valid point by Benjamin,
0:04:12 > 0:04:15because that's exactly what David Cameron
0:04:15 > 0:04:18has done in his premiership, isn't it?
0:04:18 > 0:04:20He said he would not cut front-line services,
0:04:20 > 0:04:22that's exactly what he's done.
0:04:22 > 0:04:23All those election promises,
0:04:23 > 0:04:27they're all not worth the paper they're written on. Not just Trump.
0:04:27 > 0:04:29Do you think any election promises
0:04:29 > 0:04:31are worth the paper they're written on? Any party, ever?
0:04:31 > 0:04:33Yeah, Jeremy Corbyn's.
0:04:33 > 0:04:37Oh, right, OK. APPLAUSE
0:04:37 > 0:04:38Right.
0:04:38 > 0:04:42I think we have yet to see that. Nigel Lawson.
0:04:42 > 0:04:43Yeah, first of all, Leicester,
0:04:43 > 0:04:45which is the most important thing.
0:04:45 > 0:04:47- I am...- I don't think it's very relevant...
0:04:47 > 0:04:49I am very happy indeed tonight,
0:04:49 > 0:04:54because you forgot to read out my full title.
0:04:54 > 0:04:57Which is Lord Lawson of Blaby,
0:04:57 > 0:04:58and Blaby is just next door
0:04:58 > 0:05:01to Leicester City in heart of Leicestershire.
0:05:01 > 0:05:05I was a Leicestershire member, and it is absolutely great.
0:05:05 > 0:05:07It's a wonderful David and Goliath story
0:05:07 > 0:05:09and I am absolutely delighted.
0:05:09 > 0:05:12I knew I could rely on you to read out your full title if I failed.
0:05:12 > 0:05:16I wouldn't have done it if Leicester City hadn't won the Premiership.
0:05:16 > 0:05:20The... On, uh, uh, Trump.
0:05:20 > 0:05:24I agree with, uh, Michael,
0:05:24 > 0:05:28that although he is unlikely to win,
0:05:28 > 0:05:30it's not impossible.
0:05:30 > 0:05:34Nobody ever expected that he would be the Republican candidate.
0:05:34 > 0:05:41Also, it is not the case that he would have the slightest difficulty
0:05:41 > 0:05:42in doing, if he were President,
0:05:42 > 0:05:46which I don't wish to see, but if he were,
0:05:46 > 0:05:50doing things completely differently from what he said in getting the,
0:05:50 > 0:05:54uh, nomination for the candidacy.
0:05:54 > 0:05:57He is quite capable of changing his mind
0:05:57 > 0:05:59without the slightest hesitation,
0:05:59 > 0:06:01- but he is...- Are you saying that about any politician
0:06:01 > 0:06:03or about him particularly?
0:06:03 > 0:06:04No, he is exceptionally that way.
0:06:04 > 0:06:06But he is not a...
0:06:06 > 0:06:08To compare him with Ronald Regan is completely wrong.
0:06:08 > 0:06:10I knew Ronald Regan quite well,
0:06:10 > 0:06:14and Ronald Regan was a great man and a great politician.
0:06:14 > 0:06:18And before he went into...became President,
0:06:18 > 0:06:22he had been a hugely successful governor of California.
0:06:22 > 0:06:26California is bigger than most countries in Europe.
0:06:26 > 0:06:29I mean, it is a substantial job, and he did it very well.
0:06:29 > 0:06:32He had plenty of experience, he knew what he was doing,
0:06:32 > 0:06:33and he did it very well.
0:06:33 > 0:06:36Trump has never done anything except made money,
0:06:36 > 0:06:38he's lost it and made it again.
0:06:38 > 0:06:42But... I don't think they're remotely like each other,
0:06:42 > 0:06:45but you never know.
0:06:45 > 0:06:49We're living in a curious age in the West,
0:06:49 > 0:06:52where there is a huge hostility to
0:06:52 > 0:06:54what might be called the political establishment
0:06:54 > 0:06:56and conventional politicians.
0:06:56 > 0:06:59So you simply don't know what might happen.
0:06:59 > 0:07:01You, sir.
0:07:01 > 0:07:04I agree with the panel so far. I think it's terrible that
0:07:04 > 0:07:07in a country the size of 250 million plus,
0:07:07 > 0:07:10that we have the choice of either Donald Trump,
0:07:10 > 0:07:14or another dynasty, where we had the Kennedys, we had the Bushes,
0:07:14 > 0:07:16and now we've got the Clintons.
0:07:16 > 0:07:20If they don't do it this time, let's have a better, uh,
0:07:20 > 0:07:23process for getting a governor, uh,
0:07:23 > 0:07:26a President for the next United States.
0:07:26 > 0:07:31And on the topic of Leicester, congratulations.
0:07:31 > 0:07:34- Hopefully...- I don't think we need to go too much on about Leicester.
0:07:34 > 0:07:37No, no, no, this is important!
0:07:37 > 0:07:39- BENJAMIN:- She started it! - I know she did!
0:07:39 > 0:07:42The third one in this, sorry,
0:07:42 > 0:07:44is that the UK wins the Eurovision Song Contest.
0:07:44 > 0:07:47LAUGHTER And you, sir, on the left there.
0:07:49 > 0:07:51Uh, well, might we actually be grateful
0:07:51 > 0:07:53that it's Trump and not Ted Cruz?
0:07:53 > 0:07:55At least you can make the argument
0:07:55 > 0:07:57that Trump doesn't believe half the things he says,
0:07:57 > 0:08:00whereas Ted Cruz actually believed everything he said.
0:08:00 > 0:08:01LAUGHTER
0:08:01 > 0:08:03APPLAUSE
0:08:04 > 0:08:06Isabel. Isabel Oakeshott.
0:08:06 > 0:08:09Well, I don't know, really, anything about football.
0:08:09 > 0:08:10All I would say on Leicester is...
0:08:10 > 0:08:13Forget the football! You've come for the...
0:08:13 > 0:08:14I'm really looking forward to seeing
0:08:14 > 0:08:17Gary Lineker presenting Match Of The Day in his underpants.
0:08:17 > 0:08:20On the question of Trump, there is a sort of
0:08:20 > 0:08:23analogy with David Cameron here.
0:08:23 > 0:08:25When David Cameron was a young MP,
0:08:25 > 0:08:28he wanted to get lots of airtime. And when TV researchers
0:08:28 > 0:08:31used to ring him up, asking for his views on things,
0:08:31 > 0:08:34he would give incredibly strong views,
0:08:34 > 0:08:36practically frothing at the mouth,
0:08:36 > 0:08:39so that they invited him on to programmes.
0:08:39 > 0:08:42And then once he'd secured his slot on the panel,
0:08:42 > 0:08:44he would completely calm his view down,
0:08:44 > 0:08:47much to the dismay of the producers.
0:08:47 > 0:08:49So I think it is entirely possible that
0:08:49 > 0:08:52Donald Trump has played a very calculated game
0:08:52 > 0:08:55and has exaggerated many of his positions on things.
0:08:55 > 0:08:59In terms of how likely it is that he is going to win, well,
0:08:59 > 0:09:02it is certainly something that is now being taken a lot more seriously
0:09:02 > 0:09:04in the corridors of power here,
0:09:04 > 0:09:06and it's interesting to see
0:09:06 > 0:09:09people like the Prime Minister squirming slightly
0:09:09 > 0:09:13having called him stupid and being very dismissive all along.
0:09:13 > 0:09:15He may have to retreat on that.
0:09:15 > 0:09:17He's now said he deserves our respect.
0:09:17 > 0:09:20Well, it's a hasty U-turn.
0:09:20 > 0:09:23But, look at the way Trump has fought this campaign,
0:09:23 > 0:09:26you're a political observer, do you think it's been calculated?
0:09:26 > 0:09:29Do you think everything he says is calculated,
0:09:29 > 0:09:31or is some of it just shooting from the hip?
0:09:31 > 0:09:33I think it's probably a bit of both.
0:09:33 > 0:09:36I mean, make no mistake, Donald Trump has the resources
0:09:36 > 0:09:38to employ the best possible advisors,
0:09:38 > 0:09:43and he has come from absolutely nowhere to the position he is today.
0:09:43 > 0:09:44But at the end of the day,
0:09:44 > 0:09:47he is an extremely strong and charismatic personality
0:09:47 > 0:09:51probably not particularly good at editing himself all the time.
0:09:51 > 0:09:54So this is a man who will shoot from the hip.
0:09:54 > 0:09:56OK. You, sir, up there at the back.
0:09:56 > 0:09:58I agree with Lord Lawson about...
0:09:58 > 0:10:01Oh, you? Oh, all right, I'll come to you afterwards.
0:10:01 > 0:10:03People are sort of, like, sick of the establishment where...
0:10:03 > 0:10:06And that's why they've turned to Donald Trump.
0:10:06 > 0:10:08Even the Republicans didn't want him as their candidate.
0:10:08 > 0:10:10But then he's still got... It's almost like people
0:10:10 > 0:10:13don't really care about his policies but they're tired of
0:10:13 > 0:10:15the political correctness and the lies of the elite
0:10:15 > 0:10:17that they've had for generations, really.
0:10:17 > 0:10:19What do you think the odds of him winning are?
0:10:19 > 0:10:22I think they're quite good, I would agree that Hillary Clinton's
0:10:22 > 0:10:24not a very good candidate, either.
0:10:24 > 0:10:25If you place a bet, it's 2/1, now, apparently.
0:10:25 > 0:10:28I would probably bet on Trump being President.
0:10:28 > 0:10:29And you, sir, you had your hand up.
0:10:29 > 0:10:31I was just going to say what the lady said.
0:10:31 > 0:10:35If, hypothetically, Trump does win and become President,
0:10:35 > 0:10:37does this mean David Cameron will
0:10:37 > 0:10:39have to climb down off his high horse
0:10:39 > 0:10:42- and actually have to deal with him? - Yes!- Yes.
0:10:42 > 0:10:45But they're politicians, they won't have any difficulty
0:10:45 > 0:10:47dealing with each other once they get elected.
0:10:47 > 0:10:51Yeah, but if a man of David Cameron's supposedly stature
0:10:51 > 0:10:54and all this high education is going to have to deal with a man who
0:10:54 > 0:10:58says he's from the people and the working class and
0:10:58 > 0:11:00brought himself up, he's going to
0:11:00 > 0:11:02have to deal with that type of person.
0:11:02 > 0:11:07And if Donald Trump actually says something and does something that
0:11:07 > 0:11:09David Cameron doesn't actually like,
0:11:09 > 0:11:11what does he do about it then?
0:11:11 > 0:11:14- OK.- No different to the relationship with Obama.
0:11:16 > 0:11:19Lisa Nandy, supposing, let's just take the example of Jeremy Corbyn,
0:11:19 > 0:11:21if Jeremy Corbyn was Prime Minister,
0:11:21 > 0:11:22were to be,
0:11:22 > 0:11:24uh, and had had to deal with Trump.
0:11:24 > 0:11:26That's an interesting relationship. How would that go?
0:11:26 > 0:11:29Well, I think we've always had a duty to be honest to
0:11:29 > 0:11:31our friends and allies as much as we're honest to
0:11:31 > 0:11:34people that we fundamentally disagree with,
0:11:34 > 0:11:36and I think Jeremy has proven over the last few months
0:11:36 > 0:11:38that he is prepared to tell the truth
0:11:38 > 0:11:40and be honest about what he really thinks,
0:11:40 > 0:11:43even when it gets him into a great row.
0:11:43 > 0:11:45So I don't think you would have any worries on that point.
0:11:45 > 0:11:47I think there is a serious point here, which is that we,
0:11:47 > 0:11:50in Britain we love an underdog, don't we, and everybody,
0:11:50 > 0:11:52I think, was rooting for Leicester
0:11:52 > 0:11:55and has been really pleased about what happened this week.
0:11:55 > 0:11:59It looks like Donald Trump has come in as a kind out outsider,
0:11:59 > 0:12:02and he's going to pull off this great political upset.
0:12:02 > 0:12:04But if you look behind the drama
0:12:04 > 0:12:07and the kind of absurdity of some of the things that he's saying,
0:12:07 > 0:12:11he is a deeply offensive, divisive candidate,
0:12:11 > 0:12:13and if he is doing something...
0:12:13 > 0:12:15APPLAUSE
0:12:16 > 0:12:19If he's, if he's doing something that, as Isabel suggests,
0:12:19 > 0:12:23might be much more calculated, which I think she's right to, to say,
0:12:23 > 0:12:25then that is actually even worse,
0:12:25 > 0:12:27because the comments that he's made,
0:12:27 > 0:12:30particularly about Muslims, but also about women
0:12:30 > 0:12:34and other people in America and across the world
0:12:34 > 0:12:37have a real life impact on people right now,
0:12:37 > 0:12:39and the level of hostility and prejudice
0:12:39 > 0:12:42and discrimination that they face.
0:12:42 > 0:12:44It's the sort of nasty, divisive politics
0:12:44 > 0:12:48that we're now seeing start to seep into British politics
0:12:48 > 0:12:52with the disgraceful campaign that Zac Goldsmith and David Cameron
0:12:52 > 0:12:53have run against Sadiq Khan.
0:12:53 > 0:12:56APPLAUSE
0:12:57 > 0:13:01That is why, that is why, although he has a chance,
0:13:01 > 0:13:04he is most unlikely to become President,
0:13:04 > 0:13:06just as Jeremy Corbyn is most unlikely
0:13:06 > 0:13:08ever to become Prime Minister.
0:13:08 > 0:13:09It's not Jeremy Corbyn who's been running
0:13:09 > 0:13:11a disgraceful campaign in London.
0:13:11 > 0:13:14All right, this, we'll have the result of all that, actually,
0:13:14 > 0:13:16the mayoralty, not till Friday
0:13:16 > 0:13:18- or late Friday or Saturday or something.- That's right.
0:13:18 > 0:13:20Anyway, let's go on. We've got lots of questions
0:13:20 > 0:13:21to get through tonight.
0:13:21 > 0:13:26Sorry, we'll come to you on another point. Aberdeen we're in next week,
0:13:26 > 0:13:28and Walsall in the West Midlands the week after.
0:13:28 > 0:13:31Just a reminder, and there are the details on the screen.
0:13:31 > 0:13:34If you'd like to come, you'd be extremely welcome.
0:13:34 > 0:13:37Findlay Malcolm, please, Findlay Malcolm.
0:13:37 > 0:13:42If the economic impact of Brexit is so difficult to predict,
0:13:42 > 0:13:45should we base our referendum vote on moral principles?
0:13:45 > 0:13:46And moral principles,
0:13:46 > 0:13:49you mean anything but economics, really?
0:13:50 > 0:13:54Yeah, so, something like, say, solidarity amongst
0:13:54 > 0:13:57the other nations that are in the EU that depend on us
0:13:57 > 0:14:00and for our involvement in the EU.
0:14:00 > 0:14:04OK, so, Nigel Lawson, I don't know if you agree with the first part.
0:14:04 > 0:14:07The economic impact is so difficult to predict,
0:14:07 > 0:14:10so other ideas are going to decide how people vote. Or should.
0:14:10 > 0:14:15I think the economic impact of Brexit would be positive,
0:14:15 > 0:14:19but I agree that it is difficult to predict how positive it would be.
0:14:19 > 0:14:24And I agree with you that it is fundamentally a political issue
0:14:24 > 0:14:27because the European Union is a political venture.
0:14:27 > 0:14:28The whole purpose the European Union
0:14:28 > 0:14:30is to create a United States Of Europe.
0:14:30 > 0:14:34I am not at all hostile to Europe as such.
0:14:34 > 0:14:36I live in France and I love it there.
0:14:36 > 0:14:40But this is not about whether you like Europe or not
0:14:40 > 0:14:42or whether you like travelling in Europe.
0:14:42 > 0:14:45It's whether you want to be part of a United States of Europe
0:14:45 > 0:14:48and I think most of the people of Europe don't,
0:14:48 > 0:14:51and certainly people in France I know well,
0:14:51 > 0:14:53they don't and they're extremely disaffected with
0:14:53 > 0:14:57the European Union at the present time, but their elites want it.
0:14:57 > 0:15:01Jacques Delors, I knew very well, that was his whole purpose,
0:15:01 > 0:15:05and the British certainly don't want it,
0:15:05 > 0:15:10not even the British elite want it, so therefore there is no point
0:15:10 > 0:15:17in being a member of an undemocratic outfit, which has an objective
0:15:17 > 0:15:21which you don't share, so we should love them and leave them.
0:15:21 > 0:15:23APPLAUSE Even though you can...
0:15:30 > 0:15:31Michael O'Leary.
0:15:31 > 0:15:34I couldn't agree more... disagree more profoundly with Nigel.
0:15:34 > 0:15:36He's just fundamentally wrong.
0:15:36 > 0:15:39Leaving the European Union will be damaging to the UK economy.
0:15:39 > 0:15:43I say that as one of the bigger, foreign inward investors in the UK.
0:15:43 > 0:15:46Ryanair employs over 3,000 people here in the UK.
0:15:46 > 0:15:50We will invest less in the UK if the UK leaves the European Union.
0:15:50 > 0:15:52It will undoubtedly damage sterling.
0:15:52 > 0:15:54It will undoubtedly damage your economic growth,
0:15:54 > 0:15:59certainly for the next three to five years, and yet leaving,
0:15:59 > 0:16:01the Leave campaign's only argument
0:16:01 > 0:16:04is that if you leave, it will all stay the same.
0:16:04 > 0:16:05Well, it won't.
0:16:05 > 0:16:08It'll only stay the same if you can go, then, and renegotiate
0:16:08 > 0:16:13entry into a single market, which is basically Norway. Welcome to Norway.
0:16:13 > 0:16:15What Norway does is, it's not in the European Union,
0:16:15 > 0:16:19but it has negotiated membership of the single market, which,
0:16:19 > 0:16:22to be fair, the vast majority of the UK people wish to remain in.
0:16:22 > 0:16:25Norway pays something like the same or slightly more per head
0:16:25 > 0:16:27of population to the European Union,
0:16:27 > 0:16:29despite not being a member,
0:16:29 > 0:16:32and it has to obey about 95% of the regulations coming
0:16:32 > 0:16:35out of Brussels, so you're being sold a lie by people who
0:16:35 > 0:16:38tell you if you leave, it will all stay the same. It won't.
0:16:38 > 0:16:40You should stay and,
0:16:40 > 0:16:42like Nigel's previous government under Mrs Thatcher,
0:16:42 > 0:16:45you should help to reform the European Union from within,
0:16:45 > 0:16:48and to be fair to David Cameron, I think he's done a good job.
0:16:48 > 0:16:50What do you say to the point Nigel Lawson made about everybody
0:16:50 > 0:16:53else wants something different from what Britain wants, a United States
0:16:53 > 0:16:55- of Europe?- I don't think they do.
0:16:55 > 0:16:56As somebody who's Irish, what I want
0:16:56 > 0:16:59is pretty much what most people in the UK want - I want
0:16:59 > 0:17:02a single market, a single market where you're free to move around,
0:17:02 > 0:17:04where there's less regulation, where there's less bureaucracy.
0:17:04 > 0:17:07David Cameron has negotiated reforms
0:17:07 > 0:17:09which protects sterling from the European Union,
0:17:09 > 0:17:13protects the UK taxpayer from funding out any other Euro bailouts,
0:17:13 > 0:17:17and protects the UK from closer European integration.
0:17:17 > 0:17:18Nigel is simply wrong in his analysis.
0:17:18 > 0:17:20- NIGEL:- That's not true. - It is true.
0:17:20 > 0:17:21APPLAUSE
0:17:21 > 0:17:23We'll come back to that point.
0:17:23 > 0:17:25The woman there in the second row from the back.
0:17:25 > 0:17:28I'd also disagree with Nigel because, personally,
0:17:28 > 0:17:30I DO need to stay part of the EU to get a free education.
0:17:30 > 0:17:32My country has failed me
0:17:32 > 0:17:35and I'm having to move to Sweden to get a free education at university
0:17:35 > 0:17:38so it will affect people and people do not want it to happen.
0:17:38 > 0:17:41APPLAUSE OK, and you, sir, in yellow. Yes?
0:17:41 > 0:17:44Some people would regard democracy as more important than
0:17:44 > 0:17:48an extra few quid by doing the trade deals that we supposedly won't get.
0:17:48 > 0:17:50APPLAUSE
0:17:50 > 0:17:52OK. And you down there.
0:17:53 > 0:17:56Mr O'Leary, I think you skipped the point.
0:17:56 > 0:17:58The problem that we have with the Remain campaign,
0:17:58 > 0:18:00you're not running a positive campaign.
0:18:00 > 0:18:03All we hear every other day is scare stories or,
0:18:03 > 0:18:05"There's going to be an apocalypse if we leave,"
0:18:05 > 0:18:08and we'll lose 6% of GDP by 2030.
0:18:08 > 0:18:11Why is it there's no positive campaign?
0:18:11 > 0:18:15Fair enough, granted, Brexit is running a scare campaign as well,
0:18:15 > 0:18:17but if you want people to buy into the EU,
0:18:17 > 0:18:21to be part of it, to reform it, then you need to run a positive campaign,
0:18:21 > 0:18:24- not try to scare the living hell out of us.- I'll come back to you.
0:18:24 > 0:18:27Let's go round the panel. Isabel Oakeshott.
0:18:27 > 0:18:31Well, Michael, I can well understand why you want to stay in the EU
0:18:31 > 0:18:36because the EU works very well for enormous companies like yours.
0:18:36 > 0:18:39It's very different if you run a small business where you find
0:18:39 > 0:18:42that the EU, you have to comply
0:18:42 > 0:18:45with the same set of regulations as a huge company like yours
0:18:45 > 0:18:49and you are effectively strangulated by the regulation
0:18:49 > 0:18:53and all the red tape, so I think the small businesses,
0:18:53 > 0:18:58they are the backbone of our economy and I think that the economic debate
0:18:58 > 0:19:02around Brexit has been characterised by
0:19:02 > 0:19:06the most deplorable scaremongering on the part of both the Government
0:19:06 > 0:19:09and the Remain campaigners.
0:19:09 > 0:19:10APPLAUSE
0:19:14 > 0:19:17We don't know what the economic impact is going to be,
0:19:17 > 0:19:20but it's not going to be an apocalypse.
0:19:20 > 0:19:21And for many people,
0:19:21 > 0:19:24as the gentleman up there said, this isn't about
0:19:24 > 0:19:28a few quid here or there, it is about our sovereignty
0:19:28 > 0:19:31and our ability to control our borders
0:19:31 > 0:19:33and how many people we have coming here.
0:19:33 > 0:19:36APPLAUSE
0:19:36 > 0:19:38Lisa Nandy.
0:19:38 > 0:19:41Well, I don't think it's scaremongering to point out
0:19:41 > 0:19:45that Europe is by far our biggest export market,
0:19:45 > 0:19:49that if you look at a whole host of voices from our Government,
0:19:49 > 0:19:54to financial experts, to the President of the United States,
0:19:54 > 0:19:57they've all pointed out that there would be serious problems
0:19:57 > 0:19:59for Britain if we came out and I don't think that is
0:19:59 > 0:20:02scaremongering, but I do take the point that this gentleman made
0:20:02 > 0:20:05about the positive case for Europe,
0:20:05 > 0:20:08and I think there is a positive, a moral case for Europe,
0:20:08 > 0:20:12a case that says there is another Europe, a Europe that has been
0:20:12 > 0:20:16a forum for solidarity of working people in countries
0:20:16 > 0:20:19across Europe that has won and protected us rights at work
0:20:19 > 0:20:22like paternity leave and maternity leave,
0:20:22 > 0:20:24and the right to challenge employers,
0:20:24 > 0:20:26and health and safety laws that have
0:20:26 > 0:20:29actually kept some of my constituents in Wigan alive
0:20:29 > 0:20:31as a result, and I think there's another Europe as well,
0:20:31 > 0:20:36the sort of Europe that helps us to deal with the major challenges
0:20:36 > 0:20:38that we in Britain face,
0:20:38 > 0:20:40whether it's the mass movement of people,
0:20:40 > 0:20:44whether it's global terrorism or whether it's climate change.
0:20:44 > 0:20:48Just a few months ago, the fact that we were able to work with
0:20:48 > 0:20:51the rest of the European Union to tackle climate change
0:20:51 > 0:20:54didn't just help to raise our ambition in Britain,
0:20:54 > 0:20:56it helped to raise Europe's ambition and it helped to raise
0:20:56 > 0:21:00the world's ambition, and that's why I think we're better off in Europe.
0:21:00 > 0:21:03APPLAUSE
0:21:04 > 0:21:09What do you say to the point Nigel Lawson made, that these
0:21:09 > 0:21:12other states want a United States of Europe and we don't,
0:21:12 > 0:21:14and therefore should get out?
0:21:14 > 0:21:18I just think that we've heard a lot from the other side about how
0:21:18 > 0:21:22everything will be fine when we leave the European Union,
0:21:22 > 0:21:24we'll be able to trade with other nations,
0:21:24 > 0:21:27negotiate our own deals, but then you have the President of the
0:21:27 > 0:21:30United States, who comes over and says, actually, no, that's not true.
0:21:30 > 0:21:31That wasn't the point he was making.
0:21:31 > 0:21:34He was making the point that this was going to become
0:21:34 > 0:21:36a United States of Europe, which we didn't want.
0:21:36 > 0:21:39Well, I think what we've seen over the last few years, actually,
0:21:39 > 0:21:41is that we get to make decisions
0:21:41 > 0:21:43about some of those really important issues.
0:21:43 > 0:21:47So, for example, Isabel talked about unrestricted immigration.
0:21:47 > 0:21:50We are currently having a row in the UK
0:21:50 > 0:21:55about whether we can stand up and take just 3,000 of the 90,000
0:21:55 > 0:21:59displaced children fleeing war in Syria that are currently in Europe.
0:21:59 > 0:22:01If that tells you anything,
0:22:01 > 0:22:04it tells you that we have the power to control our own borders
0:22:04 > 0:22:07if we can't even be bothered to take such a small number of children...
0:22:07 > 0:22:10APPLAUSE
0:22:10 > 0:22:12What I'd like to do... Hang on. What I'd like to do is hear from
0:22:12 > 0:22:14one or two more members of the audience.
0:22:14 > 0:22:17I'm leaving Benjamin Zephaniah on the side for the moment
0:22:17 > 0:22:20because I know he says he has no idea how he's going to vote,
0:22:20 > 0:22:23so I thought he could listen to all the arguments and then we can hear
0:22:23 > 0:22:24whether you've decided.
0:22:24 > 0:22:27But hold on just a second. The man there in the blue shirt.
0:22:27 > 0:22:29If we were to leave the EU,
0:22:29 > 0:22:32would it be the end of cheap flights from Europe destinations...
0:22:32 > 0:22:34LAUGHTER
0:22:34 > 0:22:38..and would we impose a levy on British flights to Europe?
0:22:38 > 0:22:41We'll hold on to that one, I'll make a note of that. You, sir, here.
0:22:41 > 0:22:43The second, yes.
0:22:43 > 0:22:47Erm, I think the point that Brexit's saying
0:22:47 > 0:22:51everything will be fine, no change, is not right.
0:22:51 > 0:22:53I think a lot of people are recognising that there will be
0:22:53 > 0:22:59possibly a dip in various economic things, but it'll come back later,
0:22:59 > 0:23:03and I don't think Obama actually said anything terrible.
0:23:03 > 0:23:05If you listen to what he said,
0:23:05 > 0:23:09he was talking in terms of a US deal being negotiated at the moment
0:23:09 > 0:23:13and they'll do that first and we'll be after that. That's no biggie.
0:23:13 > 0:23:16OK, and you there, the woman there, yes.
0:23:16 > 0:23:19I think if we're going to talk about the morality
0:23:19 > 0:23:20and democracy within the EU,
0:23:20 > 0:23:22I think we have to look at the way that they've
0:23:22 > 0:23:26treated Greece and the way they've held them hostage with the bailouts.
0:23:26 > 0:23:28APPLAUSE
0:23:30 > 0:23:33Benjamin Zephaniah.
0:23:33 > 0:23:35- Well, I'm still undecided! - LAUGHTER
0:23:35 > 0:23:39- You haven't got THAT long, you know! - I know.- 49 days, or 48.
0:23:39 > 0:23:42I can't remember where we are now. How many days is it?
0:23:42 > 0:23:45It's interesting. I was going to say, until Lisa spoke,
0:23:45 > 0:23:48that nobody actually really addressed the question.
0:23:48 > 0:23:53It was about ethics and morals.
0:23:53 > 0:23:56Everybody talked about economics apart from Lisa.
0:23:56 > 0:23:59- NIGEL:- We talked about politics to some extent.
0:23:59 > 0:24:03Well, the question was about morals and ethics, as far as I remember.
0:24:03 > 0:24:06The question... Well, Findlay can say what the question was again,
0:24:06 > 0:24:10but it was saying the economics are difficult to predict, one way
0:24:10 > 0:24:12or the other, and therefore it's about other issues.
0:24:12 > 0:24:14That's right, Findlay, isn't it, roughly?
0:24:14 > 0:24:17And I think mass disagreement on the panel just demonstrates
0:24:17 > 0:24:19how difficult it is to predict,
0:24:19 > 0:24:23amongst people who are qualified and able to predict it!
0:24:23 > 0:24:27Yes, and I'm completely unqualified, but I'm passionate about it.
0:24:27 > 0:24:30Now, this may sound like a strange thing to say in this arena,
0:24:30 > 0:24:33and I can understand a lot of people not understanding this,
0:24:33 > 0:24:36but I believe in a USA.
0:24:36 > 0:24:39I believe in a United States of Africa.
0:24:39 > 0:24:42I believe in a United States of Asia.
0:24:42 > 0:24:45I believe in a United Arab States.
0:24:45 > 0:24:48States getting together and working for the betterment of their people,
0:24:48 > 0:24:51not becoming a kind of European superstate
0:24:51 > 0:24:54as some people are not keen on, but just...
0:24:54 > 0:24:57I've been in Africa and wanted to get from one country to another
0:24:57 > 0:25:00and I had to fly to another European country before I could do it because
0:25:00 > 0:25:03these countries are not talking to each other, so at the heart of it,
0:25:03 > 0:25:06I like the idea of countries coming together and working together.
0:25:06 > 0:25:09I remember when I was a kid and it was the Common Market,
0:25:09 > 0:25:11that's what it seemed to be about,
0:25:11 > 0:25:15and I also am very keen on having the politicians
0:25:15 > 0:25:19that I elect very close to me, so you see my confusion.
0:25:19 > 0:25:22You are, you've got a problem anyway, with that!
0:25:22 > 0:25:26But, but, I've looked at all the, kind of, as much as I can,
0:25:26 > 0:25:29the economic arguments and all that,
0:25:29 > 0:25:34and what it boils down to for me is how it affects people on the street,
0:25:34 > 0:25:37and, from what I understand...
0:25:38 > 0:25:43..if it wasn't for the Charter of Fundamental Rights of the EU
0:25:43 > 0:25:45and lots of other European courts,
0:25:45 > 0:25:48a lot of black people wouldn't have got their rights in this country,
0:25:48 > 0:25:51a lot of women, a lot of working people wouldn't have their rights.
0:25:51 > 0:25:54We couldn't rely on the Tories or Tony Blair to give it to us.
0:25:54 > 0:25:56APPLAUSE
0:25:56 > 0:25:57Nigel.
0:25:59 > 0:26:02I don't think Benjamin is right.
0:26:02 > 0:26:07We have had a legal system, which has protected rights,
0:26:07 > 0:26:11human rights, for years and generations.
0:26:11 > 0:26:14It's got nothing whatever to do with the European Union.
0:26:14 > 0:26:16- APPLAUSE - Aren't we trying to drop out of human rights charter?
0:26:16 > 0:26:19It has nothing to do with the European Union.
0:26:19 > 0:26:23On the economics, Isabel is absolutely right that
0:26:23 > 0:26:26the regulation, there is the excessive regulation,
0:26:26 > 0:26:30excessive red tape, is strangling small and medium-sized enterprises.
0:26:30 > 0:26:32- LISA:- And yet they still support being part of Europe.
0:26:32 > 0:26:34No, they don't.
0:26:34 > 0:26:36- ISABEL:- No, they don't, that's just inaccurate.
0:26:36 > 0:26:38It's the big boys, it's the CBI and the banks
0:26:38 > 0:26:42and all these big boys who do, it is not the small companies.
0:26:42 > 0:26:43They are opposed to it,
0:26:43 > 0:26:46but it is not, at heart, an economic issue,
0:26:46 > 0:26:49it is whether you believe in democracy,
0:26:49 > 0:26:51whether you believe in self-government
0:26:51 > 0:26:54and as for cooperation, as for cooperation,
0:26:54 > 0:26:57cooperation in the modern world needs to be global.
0:26:57 > 0:27:01The idea that cooperation should just be within Europe is crazy,
0:27:01 > 0:27:02it's crackers,
0:27:02 > 0:27:06and we do have wonderful cooperation through the Commonwealth,
0:27:06 > 0:27:09through the membership
0:27:09 > 0:27:11of the Security Council of the United Nations,
0:27:11 > 0:27:14through the so-called Five Eyes security system,
0:27:14 > 0:27:17which we have with the United States, Canada, New Zealand
0:27:17 > 0:27:21and Australia, through Nato, which is very important around defence.
0:27:21 > 0:27:25It is that which is important, but our own borders are important,
0:27:25 > 0:27:29too, and we do not have control, despite what Lisa said.
0:27:29 > 0:27:31We simply do not have control over our borders.
0:27:31 > 0:27:34- LISA:- Nigel...- Anybody... Let me finish the sentence.
0:27:34 > 0:27:39Anybody who has a European Union passport has the right to come here,
0:27:39 > 0:27:43live here and work here, and there's nothing we can do about it,
0:27:43 > 0:27:48and thinking, and this is going to be extended to 75 million Turks.
0:27:48 > 0:27:50Er, that's on...
0:27:50 > 0:27:52- Oh, no. No, it's not.- But Nigel, you don't mind going to France.
0:27:52 > 0:27:55- This is completely... - But you don't mind going to France!
0:27:55 > 0:27:57- APPLAUSE - No, of course not.
0:27:57 > 0:28:00- I don't.- This is the sort of misinformation that is really
0:28:00 > 0:28:03- putting people off this campaign. - It's true.- MICHAEL:- It's rubbish.
0:28:03 > 0:28:05Back to Findlay's question, it helps to go back
0:28:05 > 0:28:08to one of Bill Clinton's great maxims - people go to vote,
0:28:08 > 0:28:10generally "It's on the economy, stupid."
0:28:10 > 0:28:12We're all in favour of very moral arguments,
0:28:12 > 0:28:14but most people at general elections
0:28:14 > 0:28:17and at big elections will vote on how they think it's going to
0:28:17 > 0:28:20affect the economy, their family and their children's future.
0:28:20 > 0:28:24I was entertained with Isabel's shot at someone working for
0:28:24 > 0:28:27the Daily Mail slagging off Ryanair for being a big company,
0:28:27 > 0:28:30but can I address, we got to be a big company by actually offering
0:28:30 > 0:28:32low fares all over Europe.
0:28:32 > 0:28:35We were only able to do that because the airlines were deregulated
0:28:35 > 0:28:39under a single market in Europe. The regulation was taken away.
0:28:39 > 0:28:42Other than that, we were only free to fly somewhere from Ireland.
0:28:42 > 0:28:45That has transformed the lives of millions of UK citizens.
0:28:45 > 0:28:48We carry about 35 million passengers a year to and between the UK
0:28:48 > 0:28:50and Europe. It has transformed.
0:28:50 > 0:28:52Everybody under the age of 40 doesn't remember
0:28:52 > 0:28:56when BA used to charge you 500 quid to get to Paris
0:28:56 > 0:28:59and you had to stay a Saturday night if you wanted a cheaper fare.
0:28:59 > 0:29:01The single market has delivered low-fare travel.
0:29:01 > 0:29:04It has delivered holidays and actually, the UK Government...
0:29:04 > 0:29:07- BENJAMIN:- Money, money, money again! - No, no, the UK Government has been
0:29:07 > 0:29:10regressive in that because it was a Labour Government under Gordon Brown
0:29:10 > 0:29:13that introduced APD that reversed low-fare air travel
0:29:13 > 0:29:15by taxing low-fare air travel.
0:29:15 > 0:29:18Listen, the way democracy's going in this country at the moment,
0:29:18 > 0:29:21if you had a general election today,
0:29:21 > 0:29:24the people would probably vote for Votey McVoteface.
0:29:24 > 0:29:25The problem is, you don't have
0:29:25 > 0:29:27- a general election today. - APPLAUSE
0:29:27 > 0:29:29You're going to have a referendum on Europe.
0:29:29 > 0:29:31OK, you, sir, in the front, here.
0:29:31 > 0:29:33- The question originally was about moral principles.- Yes.
0:29:33 > 0:29:35"Should we decide on moral principles?"
0:29:35 > 0:29:37Neil Kinnock was rejected by this electorate,
0:29:37 > 0:29:40by the British electorate, on two separate occasions.
0:29:40 > 0:29:43He then resigned, went off to the European Commission
0:29:43 > 0:29:47and took upon himself greater powers than our Prime Minister.
0:29:47 > 0:29:50Is it morally right that a man who is unelected and rejected
0:29:50 > 0:29:55by the British population then takes upon himself more power?
0:29:55 > 0:29:58Is it morally right that the European Commission have
0:29:58 > 0:30:03spent the last three years negotiating, in secret, the TTIP,
0:30:03 > 0:30:06with the Bilderberg Group at their backing?
0:30:06 > 0:30:10Is it morally right that these people have power over us
0:30:10 > 0:30:13and we don't have the democratic right to get rid of these people
0:30:13 > 0:30:15that we don't want?
0:30:15 > 0:30:20CHEERING
0:30:25 > 0:30:28- Can you directly answer his question?- Yeah, no, of course I can.
0:30:28 > 0:30:32I mean, I... So, I think you're right that Europe needs reform,
0:30:32 > 0:30:36and I don't think that you will find many people in the Labour Party
0:30:36 > 0:30:38who are arguing that we should remain,
0:30:38 > 0:30:41that don't believe that Europe needs fundamental reform -
0:30:41 > 0:30:45much more transparency, much more democracy,
0:30:45 > 0:30:48and decisions made closer to the people that they actually effect.
0:30:48 > 0:30:50- But we've just tried to reform it. - Just, just...
0:30:50 > 0:30:53- We've just tried and it didn't work. - Just a moment, Isabel.
0:30:53 > 0:30:55I agree with you about that,
0:30:55 > 0:31:00but the idea that we would be able to take back more control
0:31:00 > 0:31:02over the things that affect our lives -
0:31:02 > 0:31:04whether it's climate change or jobs,
0:31:04 > 0:31:07or terrorism or drugs or immigration -
0:31:07 > 0:31:09by cooperating less rather than more, is just fantasy.
0:31:09 > 0:31:11- All right, Isabel...- You've got a group of people over here
0:31:11 > 0:31:15who are arguing about sovereignty, and they are giving away our power.
0:31:15 > 0:31:17- We're not going to within the EU. - Don't let them do it.
0:31:17 > 0:31:19It's going to be diluted, the more countries that come in,
0:31:19 > 0:31:21our influence is going to be diluted.
0:31:21 > 0:31:24How can you possibly think that we are going to have
0:31:24 > 0:31:27a greater influence when there's five more countries being
0:31:27 > 0:31:29touted to come into the European Union?
0:31:29 > 0:31:31APPLAUSE All right, Isabel...
0:31:35 > 0:31:37Isabel Oakeshott, and then I'll come to you.
0:31:37 > 0:31:40Let me just come in on the very interesting points that Benjamin
0:31:40 > 0:31:44made about some of the moral questions and the rights for people.
0:31:44 > 0:31:49I think that your question was kind of based on a false presumption
0:31:49 > 0:31:52that we somehow lag behind other countries,
0:31:52 > 0:31:56when it comes to moral decency and common decency,
0:31:56 > 0:31:59and actually we lead the way in many of those things.
0:31:59 > 0:32:02We've just seen that David Cameron has agreed to
0:32:02 > 0:32:04take in child refugees.
0:32:04 > 0:32:07- Let me give another example... - It took him a long time.
0:32:07 > 0:32:08Let me give you another...
0:32:08 > 0:32:10- It took him a long time. - Let me give you another example.
0:32:10 > 0:32:12Let's look at, for example, animal welfare -
0:32:12 > 0:32:15it's an issue I really care about.
0:32:15 > 0:32:16We would like, in Britain,
0:32:16 > 0:32:20- to be able to stop live exports of farm animals.- So do I.
0:32:20 > 0:32:22We can't, because of the EU,
0:32:22 > 0:32:25so there are certain areas - many areas -
0:32:25 > 0:32:27where, actually, if we had control,
0:32:27 > 0:32:31we would exceed some of the moral values of other member states.
0:32:31 > 0:32:33I'm not... I'm sitting on the fence still,
0:32:33 > 0:32:37but what about, not so long ago, one of our Government wanted to
0:32:37 > 0:32:40lock people up for 90 days or something without charging them?
0:32:40 > 0:32:42- What's that got to do with the EU? - Well, I'm...
0:32:42 > 0:32:45I'm just answering the question about... We're not moral leaders.
0:32:45 > 0:32:47Well, we can't be moral leaders in everything.
0:32:47 > 0:32:50- We can try.- OK, let's go on. You, sir, here. You, sir, here.
0:32:50 > 0:32:53- The problem I've got with this referendum...- Say it again.
0:32:53 > 0:32:54The problem I've got with this referendum,
0:32:54 > 0:32:57if you listen to the Brexit camp and you listen to the Remain camp,
0:32:57 > 0:33:01like the question says, it'll about economics.
0:33:01 > 0:33:05No matter what they do, they always throw money at you.
0:33:05 > 0:33:08It's money this, money that, money this, money that.
0:33:08 > 0:33:11Lisa pointed out all these financial bigwigs that have
0:33:11 > 0:33:14pointed out that we have to stay in, cos this is going to happen,
0:33:14 > 0:33:16They weren't... They didn't want to listen to them
0:33:16 > 0:33:18when the Government...
0:33:18 > 0:33:21when everybody wanted to go into the euro, which...
0:33:21 > 0:33:26For them, going into the euro was the best decision that we could do,
0:33:26 > 0:33:30so they ignored them, and it turned out that they was wrong.
0:33:30 > 0:33:32- Right, OK.- With what they said, they was wrong.
0:33:32 > 0:33:34But, actually, when we went...
0:33:34 > 0:33:37When we had the debate about whether we were going into the euro
0:33:37 > 0:33:40and we decided not to do it, there were voices, credible voices,
0:33:40 > 0:33:43on both sides of the argument, making different cases.
0:33:43 > 0:33:48And now what you see, when you look across the economic world,
0:33:48 > 0:33:51is you only really find people making the case to remain,
0:33:51 > 0:33:54and I'm not asking you to vote for Europe on that basis.
0:33:54 > 0:33:57- I'm just saying, think about it, really...- Right.
0:33:57 > 0:33:59..that we're part of this enormous trading bloc,
0:33:59 > 0:34:01so we can negotiate better deals with other countries.
0:34:01 > 0:34:03If we come out, why would it be the same?
0:34:03 > 0:34:04All right, hang on a second.
0:34:04 > 0:34:06When you were Chancellor of the Exchequer,
0:34:06 > 0:34:08and you were following the Deutschmark,
0:34:08 > 0:34:11and there was the thought of us going with, maybe,
0:34:11 > 0:34:14the euro and all that, when did you start to think
0:34:14 > 0:34:17that perhaps it wasn't such a good idea to be in the EU?
0:34:17 > 0:34:21I was the first minister to come out strongly against
0:34:21 > 0:34:23the single European currency.
0:34:23 > 0:34:30I did it when I was Chancellor in 1989, before it had come into being,
0:34:30 > 0:34:32because I'd hoped it would be stopped,
0:34:32 > 0:34:34because it was clear that that was their intention.
0:34:34 > 0:34:35I knew Jacques Delors very well -
0:34:35 > 0:34:37before he was President of the Commission,
0:34:37 > 0:34:40he was my opposite number as French finance minister.
0:34:40 > 0:34:43I knew exactly what he was up to, and I made a definitive speech,
0:34:43 > 0:34:45the first one that was made, against joining the euro,
0:34:45 > 0:34:49but, really, against the single currency at all.
0:34:49 > 0:34:52But let me come back to the economics.
0:34:52 > 0:34:55I agree that the economics is not the most important thing.
0:34:55 > 0:35:00It is democracy and self-government that are far more important
0:35:00 > 0:35:02- than the economics.- All right.
0:35:02 > 0:35:05But there's a lot of nonsense being spoken, I won't mention names,
0:35:05 > 0:35:09- but around this table. The... - LAUGHTER
0:35:09 > 0:35:12- I don't see why...- It's badge of honour, Nigel.- First of all...
0:35:12 > 0:35:16First of all, we do far more trade with
0:35:16 > 0:35:19the rest of the world than we do with the European Union,
0:35:19 > 0:35:21and the gap is growing.
0:35:21 > 0:35:25The excess that we do with the rest of the world is greater.
0:35:25 > 0:35:29There is no need for any trade agreements in order to do trade.
0:35:29 > 0:35:35The fact of the matter is that the...
0:35:35 > 0:35:38Obama spoke as he did because he thought it was in the interests
0:35:38 > 0:35:42of the United States that we should remain in the European Union -
0:35:42 > 0:35:44not necessarily the interests of Britain.
0:35:44 > 0:35:47He may or may not be right that it is in
0:35:47 > 0:35:50the interests of the United States, but that is not the issue.
0:35:50 > 0:35:54It is what is right for this country, as much as, erm,
0:35:54 > 0:35:56a wonderful country that the United States is...
0:35:56 > 0:35:59And we had some talk about their presidential candidates earlier,
0:35:59 > 0:36:01which may take some of the gloss off,
0:36:01 > 0:36:03but, certainly, what is right for the United States
0:36:03 > 0:36:05is not necessarily what is right for Britain.
0:36:05 > 0:36:07- All right.- And... And the other thing is...
0:36:07 > 0:36:09- All right, quickly. - The other thing...
0:36:09 > 0:36:14The other thing is that trade agreements are...
0:36:14 > 0:36:16are of no significance to speak of.
0:36:16 > 0:36:19Norway, for example, which Michael mentioned -
0:36:19 > 0:36:23this ridiculous, tiny little country, but the tariff is...
0:36:23 > 0:36:25The common external tariff...
0:36:25 > 0:36:27Norway is a ridiculous, tiny little country?
0:36:27 > 0:36:29- LAUGHTER - No, no, it is a lovely country,
0:36:29 > 0:36:31- but it is, the comparison that's... - Ridiculous, all right.
0:36:31 > 0:36:34- I just wanted to clarify the point. - No, I'm glad you did.
0:36:34 > 0:36:36Norway's a great country, but to compare...
0:36:36 > 0:36:38To compare it with...
0:36:38 > 0:36:41- To compare it with the United Kingdom is ridiculous.- All right.
0:36:41 > 0:36:43Now, I want to do one thing because I want to move on.
0:36:43 > 0:36:46We've got a lot of other questions. We talk about Europe every week.
0:36:46 > 0:36:48I happen to know, because we asked you all before you came,
0:36:48 > 0:36:51that you're pretty well divided 50-50 when you made up your minds
0:36:51 > 0:36:53- on Brexit or Remain... BENJAMIN:- Oh, they're like me.
0:36:53 > 0:36:55I want to hear from Remain people
0:36:55 > 0:36:57because we have had a lot of Brexiters talking.
0:36:57 > 0:36:59Yes, you, sir, there. And then I'll come to the lady there.
0:36:59 > 0:37:01Then we'll go to another question. Yes?
0:37:01 > 0:37:03You've heard all this, what do you make of it?
0:37:03 > 0:37:06I want to take issue with a couple of points that have been raised.
0:37:06 > 0:37:08Firstly, Isabel is saying that somehow
0:37:08 > 0:37:11if we were in control of certain things, we'd make better choices.
0:37:11 > 0:37:13So, we have seen the Government here in the UK
0:37:13 > 0:37:17fighting against regulation to protect bees from pesticides,
0:37:17 > 0:37:20fighting against regulation on climate change,
0:37:20 > 0:37:23fighting against things like cleaning up our air -
0:37:23 > 0:37:25they've failed dismally to meet EU targets.
0:37:25 > 0:37:29So thinking that we'd be better outside Europe is one thing.
0:37:29 > 0:37:30But the other thing about democracy,
0:37:30 > 0:37:33I'm hearing Lord Lawson saying that it's all about democracy -
0:37:33 > 0:37:36we have a Government here which is overriding local democracy.
0:37:36 > 0:37:39They decided in Lancashire to oppose fracking.
0:37:39 > 0:37:42Lancashire County Council opposed fracking,
0:37:42 > 0:37:44the Government is going to overrule that.
0:37:44 > 0:37:47So for him to talk about democracy is completely two-faced,
0:37:47 > 0:37:49when the Government here is overriding local people.
0:37:49 > 0:37:53APPLAUSE
0:37:53 > 0:37:56And the woman there in the white dress? Yes?
0:37:56 > 0:37:57I think that...
0:37:57 > 0:37:59Well, I was watching either the Sunday Politics Show
0:37:59 > 0:38:01or Andrew Marr show a few weeks ago,
0:38:01 > 0:38:04Mr Lawson said we wouldn't have a trade agreement
0:38:04 > 0:38:05in a similar way to Norway.
0:38:05 > 0:38:08Then we have members of Parliament saying, "Of course we will."
0:38:08 > 0:38:11And I think you're right with that question because we just don't know.
0:38:11 > 0:38:12There's a lot of uncertainty.
0:38:12 > 0:38:14I think that the Leave campaign has a lot of,
0:38:14 > 0:38:17"Oh, when we leave, there'll be candyfloss from trees
0:38:17 > 0:38:19"and unicorns on the ground, the world will be perfect."
0:38:19 > 0:38:21And we need to make sure our Remain campaign
0:38:21 > 0:38:26is equally as passionate because we are not getting that at the moment.
0:38:26 > 0:38:29Do you ever go shopping? I'm sure you do.
0:38:29 > 0:38:33Do you only ever see goods from the European Union in the shops?
0:38:33 > 0:38:36Of course not, you see goods from all over the world.
0:38:36 > 0:38:41You don't need to be in the European Union to trade with Europe.
0:38:41 > 0:38:43APPLAUSE
0:38:45 > 0:38:48I'll take one more Remain point.
0:38:48 > 0:38:49Yes, the woman in blue there.
0:38:49 > 0:38:51And then we must go on to another question.
0:38:51 > 0:38:54Just to feed back to the original question,
0:38:54 > 0:38:57what is wonderful is, we're part of something,
0:38:57 > 0:39:00we're part of something that we can build together to make Europe
0:39:00 > 0:39:03a better place to live for everybody in Europe.
0:39:03 > 0:39:07And sometimes I think we get a bit hooked up on our lovely lives here.
0:39:07 > 0:39:10But if we think across Europe, everybody's in different positions.
0:39:10 > 0:39:13I personally love the fact that we've got people from all
0:39:13 > 0:39:16different parts of Europe coming to live here, coming to work
0:39:16 > 0:39:19and coming to contribute to the brilliant society we've got.
0:39:19 > 0:39:23OK. Thank you. APPLAUSE
0:39:23 > 0:39:24We'll go on.
0:39:24 > 0:39:27Paul Burgess, you have a question for us, please?
0:39:27 > 0:39:29- Paul Burgess.- Yeah.
0:39:29 > 0:39:33Is it right that six and seven-year-olds should have to go
0:39:33 > 0:39:37on strike to express their and their parents' feelings regarding SATs?
0:39:37 > 0:39:40Children who were kept away from...
0:39:40 > 0:39:44APPLAUSE
0:39:44 > 0:39:47..kept away from school so they didn't sit their SATs.
0:39:47 > 0:39:48Lisa Nandy, what do you think?
0:39:48 > 0:39:53Well, I definitely agree with the way you phrased the question
0:39:53 > 0:39:56because I went into a primary school in my constituency
0:39:56 > 0:39:59this afternoon and I talked to some
0:39:59 > 0:40:0511-year-olds who're going through the SATs process and their teacher.
0:40:05 > 0:40:09What they told me was that testing in itself is not the problem,
0:40:09 > 0:40:12actually assessment, proper assessment is a really
0:40:12 > 0:40:15important part of the education system.
0:40:15 > 0:40:18And it wasn't just the teachers who welcomed that,
0:40:18 > 0:40:19it was the children as well.
0:40:19 > 0:40:22But they were finding it incredibly stressful.
0:40:22 > 0:40:25One of the reason the teachers were finding it incredibly stressful is
0:40:25 > 0:40:28because they said to me, "The goalposts keep changing."
0:40:28 > 0:40:33The Government has changed these tests over 80 times since September.
0:40:33 > 0:40:35And so teachers were saying, "Look,
0:40:35 > 0:40:37"we've just lost confidence with the system."
0:40:37 > 0:40:39And there's a real problem here because
0:40:39 > 0:40:41if you chop and change so often that
0:40:41 > 0:40:45people don't really see the value in the assessment, it's very difficult,
0:40:45 > 0:40:48then, for teachers and parents to give confidence to children that
0:40:48 > 0:40:50those assessments are right as well,
0:40:50 > 0:40:53- and that's where you get the stress. - Wasn't the point though that
0:40:53 > 0:40:55children were not meant to know they were sitting an exam?
0:40:55 > 0:40:57Isn't that the point of SATs -
0:40:57 > 0:40:59they were just meant to do them without realising it was an exam?
0:40:59 > 0:41:02Part of the problem with the way the Government has handled this is
0:41:02 > 0:41:04they've talked up the need to be tough
0:41:04 > 0:41:06and have better standards in schools.
0:41:06 > 0:41:09They've brought back the six and seven-year-old tests
0:41:09 > 0:41:12without any clear evidence it does raise standards in school.
0:41:12 > 0:41:15They actually published some of these tests online by accident
0:41:15 > 0:41:17and then had to retract them.
0:41:17 > 0:41:19I think the view coming out of schools now,
0:41:19 > 0:41:22and with parents, is that the Government is completely
0:41:22 > 0:41:25out of ideas about how you better support children
0:41:25 > 0:41:28and raise standards, so instead they've come out with this
0:41:28 > 0:41:30string of policies, including these tests,
0:41:30 > 0:41:33including unqualified teachers in our schools,
0:41:33 > 0:41:36including forcing all schools to become academies.
0:41:36 > 0:41:38It's a box-ticking exercise,
0:41:38 > 0:41:40but at the end our children are paying the price for it.
0:41:40 > 0:41:41And were the parents right
0:41:41 > 0:41:44to take their children away from school for the day,
0:41:44 > 0:41:45take them, in effect, on strike?
0:41:45 > 0:41:49I think this is difficult, really. I was reflecting on it earlier.
0:41:49 > 0:41:51Just give your brief answer of your reflections.
0:41:51 > 0:41:54My answer is that if it was me, I wouldn't have done it.
0:41:54 > 0:41:57I think children are better off in school. But the blame, for me,
0:41:57 > 0:42:00lies with a Government that's putting box-ticking above children.
0:42:00 > 0:42:03- Isabel Oakeshott?- Well... - APPLAUSE
0:42:06 > 0:42:10I found it incredibly distasteful to see seven-year-olds
0:42:10 > 0:42:14being marched on strikes with their parents bearing placards.
0:42:14 > 0:42:17I thought that was really exploitive.
0:42:17 > 0:42:20APPLAUSE
0:42:21 > 0:42:23You know, there's a really sorry thing,
0:42:23 > 0:42:28and that is that we are currently languishing below Vietnam
0:42:28 > 0:42:33and Poland in the international educational league tables.
0:42:33 > 0:42:36I think we should be throwing everything that we've got
0:42:36 > 0:42:38at raising our game.
0:42:38 > 0:42:42And at the end of the day, yes, it's not nice to sit tests,
0:42:42 > 0:42:44but it's not so very traumatic.
0:42:44 > 0:42:47And part of the rationale for these tests
0:42:47 > 0:42:50is not to identify children who aren't doing well
0:42:50 > 0:42:53to give them a hard time about that,
0:42:53 > 0:42:56it's so that we can see which children need extra support,
0:42:56 > 0:43:01and also so we can identify where teachers are failing.
0:43:01 > 0:43:05And that has got to be a very, very decent objective.
0:43:05 > 0:43:07- APPLAUSE - But the problem is, Isabel,
0:43:07 > 0:43:09is that there is no clear evidence
0:43:09 > 0:43:12that these six and seven-year-olds tests actually achieve that.
0:43:12 > 0:43:14And in fact what some of those children were saying
0:43:14 > 0:43:18to me today is that these tests are actually so difficult that they
0:43:18 > 0:43:22are under enormous pressure and they're losing confidence.
0:43:22 > 0:43:25If the Schools Minister can't even answer one of those questions on the
0:43:25 > 0:43:29Today programme, then I do think he needs to listen to these concerns.
0:43:29 > 0:43:32- Do you know what a subordinating conjunction is?- No. I'm not...
0:43:32 > 0:43:35- Do you know what a subordinating conjunction is?- I do, actually.
0:43:35 > 0:43:38I've never heard the expression until Nick Gibb.
0:43:38 > 0:43:41I'm lucky enough to have had a great education!
0:43:41 > 0:43:44All right. I'm going to the woman there. Yes?
0:43:44 > 0:43:47I agree with points from both Isabel and Lisa, actually.
0:43:47 > 0:43:49Because I do agree that testing is important
0:43:49 > 0:43:52in some ways because I know that
0:43:52 > 0:43:57often testing is crucial in order to find out who exactly is struggling
0:43:57 > 0:44:01and it's important to establish from an early age who needs extra help.
0:44:01 > 0:44:02So why the problem?
0:44:02 > 0:44:05Because I also understand, like Lisa was saying,
0:44:05 > 0:44:08about how we are constantly changing.
0:44:08 > 0:44:11As a student myself, I understand how much of a stress it has been
0:44:11 > 0:44:13on students and teachers because the Government
0:44:13 > 0:44:15is constantly changing the way we do things,
0:44:15 > 0:44:18and that is putting unnecessary pressure on students and teachers.
0:44:18 > 0:44:20OK, Benjamin Zephaniah?
0:44:20 > 0:44:23I agree with a lot of what Lisa said.
0:44:23 > 0:44:27I spend a lot of time in schools, in this country and all over the world.
0:44:27 > 0:44:31In this country, every time I seem to go in a school, teachers are
0:44:31 > 0:44:33changing from one system to another,
0:44:33 > 0:44:36constantly trying to get in with one system.
0:44:36 > 0:44:38As soon as they get in that system,
0:44:38 > 0:44:42there's another system comes along, some changes come along.
0:44:42 > 0:44:46I think, at that early age, children should be enjoying school.
0:44:46 > 0:44:49Tutors can assess them from afar and assess them
0:44:49 > 0:44:51in much more interesting ways.
0:44:51 > 0:44:55But one of the things I'd like to warn our Education Ministers about
0:44:55 > 0:44:59is that they seem to look to places
0:44:59 > 0:45:04like Japan and Singapore, and now China...
0:45:04 > 0:45:08- North Korea, maybe?- Well, not North Korea. I've been there...
0:45:08 > 0:45:09Oh, you heard about North Korea,
0:45:09 > 0:45:13where they identify geniuses at five and then bring them...?
0:45:13 > 0:45:15- Oh, no, no.- Not for you?
0:45:15 > 0:45:21Quite seriously, those places have a high level of suicide.
0:45:21 > 0:45:24They have a high level of...
0:45:24 > 0:45:28They have a disease in Japan called hikikomori. It's unique to Japan.
0:45:28 > 0:45:31It's where a kid just locks himself away because
0:45:31 > 0:45:33he cannot take the world and the educational pressures
0:45:33 > 0:45:39and everything else. It's because of this pressure to pass exams
0:45:39 > 0:45:42from a young age and to do well, especially when you have
0:45:42 > 0:45:45a small family, if you've got one child or two,
0:45:45 > 0:45:48and they are not, you know, keeping up with everybody else.
0:45:48 > 0:45:52The kids just can't take the pressure.
0:45:52 > 0:45:57So, I think education is OK for making money, here we go again,
0:45:57 > 0:46:00making money, but you've got to have good, rounded adults.
0:46:00 > 0:46:04Nigel Lawson? APPLAUSE
0:46:07 > 0:46:12We did have a problem in this country that our standard
0:46:12 > 0:46:18of education was not good enough and it had to be raised.
0:46:18 > 0:46:20Michael Gove, I think, did a very good job, when he was
0:46:20 > 0:46:23- Secretary of State for Education... - BOOING
0:46:23 > 0:46:26..in improving standards in education.
0:46:26 > 0:46:28And part of that... It's not the whole story.
0:46:28 > 0:46:31Part of that is a necessity to test children.
0:46:31 > 0:46:35I was very encouraged by this recent demo or strike
0:46:35 > 0:46:40to see how few parents were stupid enough to bring
0:46:40 > 0:46:45their children out on strike. The great majority recognised
0:46:45 > 0:46:48the testing is necessary, and they were perfectly content
0:46:48 > 0:46:52to go along with it. That is an important part of raising
0:46:52 > 0:46:56educational standards, and if we want this country
0:46:56 > 0:46:58to be even better than it is today,
0:46:58 > 0:47:01that is a very important part of it.
0:47:01 > 0:47:03OK. The woman there, in white?
0:47:03 > 0:47:07Our children are the most precious commodity that we actually have,
0:47:07 > 0:47:11and until education stops being a political football,
0:47:11 > 0:47:13they are never going to stand a chance.
0:47:13 > 0:47:17- And the reason why... - APPLAUSE
0:47:17 > 0:47:22And the reason why, Mr Lawson, that there wasn't
0:47:22 > 0:47:27such a greater parental support, is because, at the moment,
0:47:27 > 0:47:31the majority of parents don't actually seriously understand
0:47:31 > 0:47:35the mess the current D of E has made of assessment,
0:47:35 > 0:47:38and, actually, what forced academisation is doing...
0:47:38 > 0:47:41Where are the British values on forced academisation?
0:47:41 > 0:47:44If you're forced to do something, what price?
0:47:44 > 0:47:50- Freedom, liberty, rule of law.- All right. The woman at the back there?
0:47:50 > 0:47:53- In the very back row, yes. - I think there's a couple of issues.
0:47:53 > 0:47:56Firstly, it seems like a lot of our Education Ministers
0:47:56 > 0:47:59think they know more about teaching than teachers do,
0:47:59 > 0:48:03which is why they're changing things.
0:48:03 > 0:48:05Secondly, just to come back to what Isabel was saying,
0:48:05 > 0:48:08I think, partly, perhaps other countries are doing better
0:48:08 > 0:48:11than Britain are in education systems because our good teachers
0:48:11 > 0:48:14are leaving to go elsewhere to get a better standard of living.
0:48:14 > 0:48:17- Michael O'Leary?- I'm slightly nervous at getting involved
0:48:17 > 0:48:21in this part of the debate. But, look, as somebody Irish,
0:48:21 > 0:48:23I'm a father of four children under the age of ten.
0:48:23 > 0:48:27Like most parents, I care that my children are tested,
0:48:27 > 0:48:30not tested, are challenged in school. I want them to do well.
0:48:30 > 0:48:34I also want them to be pushed. I think we run a grave danger,
0:48:34 > 0:48:37certainly in our generation, of being a little bit too soft
0:48:37 > 0:48:40on our children. We've taken away competitive sports,
0:48:40 > 0:48:43we don't want to test them, we love continuous assessment.
0:48:43 > 0:48:48In life, in work, in career, everybody faces those challenges.
0:48:48 > 0:48:51I don't... I think the parents were wrong to take children
0:48:51 > 0:48:55of the age of six and seven out of school for a day of protest,
0:48:55 > 0:48:58or whatever else it was. That wasn't the way to resolve their issues.
0:48:58 > 0:49:00If they have an issue with the syllabus or they have an issue
0:49:00 > 0:49:03with the testing regime, taking young children out of school
0:49:03 > 0:49:06and having them marching up and down with placards was the wrong way
0:49:06 > 0:49:09- to advance their case. - APPLAUSE
0:49:09 > 0:49:13Can I... I'd like to go back to Paul Burgess,
0:49:13 > 0:49:17who asked the question. What do you think of what you've heard?
0:49:17 > 0:49:21I disagree in a lot of the things because there is no extra support
0:49:21 > 0:49:25for the schools, they are just virtually to the bone,
0:49:25 > 0:49:28the way the schools are run. My own granddaughter,
0:49:28 > 0:49:31it was her third place that she managed to get in,
0:49:31 > 0:49:34starting school at four. The other two places were full.
0:49:34 > 0:49:36There's not enough schools, not enough teachers.
0:49:36 > 0:49:39But the issue about SATs, which was the question you asked,
0:49:39 > 0:49:42and going on strike about it, are you in favour of what was done?
0:49:42 > 0:49:46In some ways. It was the only way of trying to get the message across,
0:49:46 > 0:49:48- expressing their feelings. - All right.
0:49:48 > 0:49:50- We're at a point of desperation. - The man next to you,
0:49:50 > 0:49:52you had your hand up. Do you want a quick point?
0:49:52 > 0:49:56I think the fact that parents withheld their children from school
0:49:56 > 0:49:58represents the degree of frustration that they feel about it.
0:49:58 > 0:50:01I think the fact that the doctors have to go on strike
0:50:01 > 0:50:04to be heard, to be listened to, again reflects that.
0:50:04 > 0:50:08I think the fact that their discontent, in terms of academies
0:50:08 > 0:50:12for high schools, that represents that. I think that is true.
0:50:12 > 0:50:16Democracy is not really what the ex-Chancellor's referring to.
0:50:16 > 0:50:18- I think we need to listen to the people.- All right.
0:50:18 > 0:50:20Very briefly...
0:50:20 > 0:50:23It's a quick observation. I said earlier that I spend a lot of time
0:50:23 > 0:50:27going around the world to schools and I'm fascinated by the amount
0:50:27 > 0:50:30of British teachers I meet in foreign schools,
0:50:30 > 0:50:33who sometimes they're getting less pay than they get here,
0:50:33 > 0:50:36but they get better respect.
0:50:36 > 0:50:39The government, the ministers of education, are not at war with them.
0:50:39 > 0:50:43- And they'll accept less salary! - APPLAUSE
0:50:43 > 0:50:46All right. We've got five minutes or so left.
0:50:46 > 0:50:48Tom Markham, let's have your question, please.
0:50:48 > 0:50:51If Labour perform badly at today's local elections,
0:50:51 > 0:50:54should Jeremy Corbyn's position as leader come under threat?
0:50:54 > 0:50:57If Labour perform badly at local elections,
0:50:57 > 0:50:59which we get the results of early tomorrow morning,
0:50:59 > 0:51:02should Jeremy Corbyn's position as leader come under threat?
0:51:02 > 0:51:05Isabel Oakeshott is a commentator on these things. What do you think?
0:51:05 > 0:51:08Well, I certainly would like to see it come under threat,
0:51:08 > 0:51:11and so would a very great number of Labour MPs.
0:51:11 > 0:51:14The problem that they've got is that Jeremy Corbyn
0:51:14 > 0:51:17remains immensely popular with the wider Labour membership.
0:51:17 > 0:51:21So you've got this bizarre situation where Labour MPs
0:51:21 > 0:51:24are kind of held prisoner by the wider party.
0:51:24 > 0:51:29I think that if it's a poor result tonight,
0:51:29 > 0:51:32Jeremy Corbyn will carry on being leader for quite a while.
0:51:32 > 0:51:37Because all the evidence is that if MPs who don't favour his leadership
0:51:37 > 0:51:42tried to launch some kind of coup, it would be unsuccessful.
0:51:42 > 0:51:44Tom Markham, your point is that he should or he shouldn't
0:51:44 > 0:51:47come under threat if things go badly?
0:51:47 > 0:51:51I think he should. It's the first test for him as leader.
0:51:51 > 0:51:54The difficulty is, obviously, he's got huge support
0:51:54 > 0:51:58in the membership, unfortunately. I think members have been incredibly
0:51:58 > 0:52:01- short-sighted.- Are you a Labour supporter?- I'm a Labour member,
0:52:01 > 0:52:03but I don't support Jeremy Corbyn.
0:52:03 > 0:52:06I think people need to remember how good New Labour were.
0:52:06 > 0:52:09- Minimum wage, equal rights for gay people.- All right.
0:52:09 > 0:52:10Lisa Nandy?
0:52:10 > 0:52:12Well, I certainly agree with the...
0:52:12 > 0:52:16Are you a staunch supporter or a moderate supporter?
0:52:16 > 0:52:19I'm not quite sure where you stand on the issue.
0:52:19 > 0:52:22I'm a supporter of Labour and I'm a supporter of Jeremy Corbyn,
0:52:22 > 0:52:25who was elected with a resounding mandate from our members.
0:52:25 > 0:52:30Let me say this, as well, that the negativity about Jeremy
0:52:30 > 0:52:33completely ignores the fact that in the last six months, we've won
0:52:33 > 0:52:36really important victories over the Tories, forcing them to back down
0:52:36 > 0:52:39on things like cutting tax credits for working people,
0:52:39 > 0:52:42forcing the Business Secretary to come back from Australia
0:52:42 > 0:52:45and intervene in the steel crisis,
0:52:45 > 0:52:49and brokering a cross-party deal with support of Conservative MPs,
0:52:49 > 0:52:52as well, to try and avert the junior doctors' strikes.
0:52:52 > 0:52:56So it's just not true to say that Labour or Jeremy
0:52:56 > 0:52:58aren't doing anything that's worth doing.
0:52:58 > 0:53:01In fact, in many ways, we're acting as a line of defence
0:53:01 > 0:53:04against some of the worst things that this Government is doing.
0:53:04 > 0:53:06So if things go badly, the question was,
0:53:06 > 0:53:09should his position come under threat?
0:53:09 > 0:53:12That's a loyal Labour member, who thinks it should.
0:53:12 > 0:53:16Well, I'm a loyal Labour member, as well, and what I would say is this.
0:53:16 > 0:53:21Firstly, I don't accept the sort of doom, gloom and despair narrative.
0:53:21 > 0:53:24We're fighting for every single vote in this election.
0:53:24 > 0:53:27We know it's a tough call, but people said that the Oldham
0:53:27 > 0:53:30by-election was a test of Jeremy Corbyn's leadership.
0:53:30 > 0:53:32They said if he did badly, he had to go.
0:53:32 > 0:53:34They said that we would probably lose.
0:53:34 > 0:53:37In fact, we did incredibly well and we increased our result
0:53:37 > 0:53:40share there. So I think we need to go out,
0:53:40 > 0:53:43we need to fight for every vote, we need to be humble about the fact
0:53:43 > 0:53:47that, at the last general election, people felt they couldn't support us
0:53:47 > 0:53:49and we had a really disappointing result.
0:53:49 > 0:53:52We know it will be a tough road back, and this is the start of it.
0:53:52 > 0:53:55- We've got to convince people. - APPLAUSE
0:53:55 > 0:53:57You, there?
0:53:57 > 0:54:01I cannot believe that you are defending the Tony Blair Government
0:54:01 > 0:54:03that took us to war in Iraq.
0:54:03 > 0:54:07- How can you ignore that? - APPLAUSE DROWNS OUT SPEECH
0:54:07 > 0:54:11..Jeremy Corbyn has the biggest mandate of any leader
0:54:11 > 0:54:14to ever have been elected. This is a democratic process.
0:54:14 > 0:54:18It's not up to Labour MPs to decide who is Leader of the Labour Party.
0:54:18 > 0:54:21It's up to members of the Labour Party.
0:54:21 > 0:54:23APPLAUSE
0:54:26 > 0:54:28In answer to the question, it's quite obvious,
0:54:28 > 0:54:30I don't think his leadership will come under threat
0:54:30 > 0:54:33if he does badly at the local elections, because it looks like
0:54:33 > 0:54:36he'll win the London mayoralty, and that'll be the vindication.
0:54:36 > 0:54:39But, to answer your point, you've elected Labour,
0:54:39 > 0:54:42but democratically, Jeremy Corbyn, he's unelectable
0:54:42 > 0:54:43to most of the British electorate.
0:54:43 > 0:54:45You've gone back to the days of Michael Foot.
0:54:45 > 0:54:48Labour will not win an election with Jeremy Corbyn as leader,
0:54:48 > 0:54:51but he will probably usher in somebody electable after him,
0:54:51 > 0:54:52as they did with Tony Blair.
0:54:52 > 0:54:54And whatever your views of Tony Blair in Iraq,
0:54:54 > 0:54:57he won Labour three elections in a row.
0:54:57 > 0:54:59No other leader has.
0:54:59 > 0:55:01You let Lisa off the hook, in terms of the question.
0:55:01 > 0:55:03Why doesn't the Daily Mail put me back on it?
0:55:03 > 0:55:07Well, the question was, whether you think he should face a challenge
0:55:07 > 0:55:08- if he doesn't do well.- She said no.
0:55:08 > 0:55:11I just want to ask, are you happy with a Labour Leader
0:55:11 > 0:55:13who calls Hamas and Hezbollah his friends?
0:55:13 > 0:55:16- MIXED APPLAUSE AND BOOING - Isabel, please. Please!
0:55:16 > 0:55:19That is such a disgraceful thing to say.
0:55:19 > 0:55:21That's what he called them.
0:55:21 > 0:55:23As a political commentator, you would have been watching
0:55:23 > 0:55:26Prime Minister's Questions when said very clearly that,
0:55:26 > 0:55:29"Anybody who expresses anti-Semitism is no friend of mine."
0:55:29 > 0:55:32- Please, these are important issues. - Those were his exact words.
0:55:32 > 0:55:33These are people's lives.
0:55:33 > 0:55:36Stop playing politics with people's lives.
0:55:36 > 0:55:37Benjamin Zephaniah?
0:55:39 > 0:55:41I can't remember what the question is.
0:55:41 > 0:55:42LAUGHTER
0:55:42 > 0:55:45I know we're talking about Jeremy Corbyn.
0:55:45 > 0:55:47It's not just anything about Jeremy Corbyn.
0:55:47 > 0:55:49It's should his leadership come under threat if they do badly
0:55:49 > 0:55:53- in the elections?- I think we're in a hostile climate for somebody
0:55:53 > 0:55:55like Jeremy right now. The pressures against him,
0:55:55 > 0:55:58you've got people in the party plotting against him.
0:55:58 > 0:56:01I have known him for years, and I know that he was
0:56:01 > 0:56:05a brilliant campaigner, that he cares about things passionately.
0:56:05 > 0:56:08He's the kind of person that actually shouldn't be in politics
0:56:08 > 0:56:13cos politics is so dirty, you know? He really cares!
0:56:13 > 0:56:17Quite seriously...
0:56:17 > 0:56:21Last week, apparently, he was supposed to be an anti-Semite.
0:56:21 > 0:56:24He's the only mainstream politician that I know
0:56:24 > 0:56:27that has been arrested for anti-racism.
0:56:27 > 0:56:29Yeah. But he shouldn't be in politics?
0:56:29 > 0:56:33- But what I mean is...- I know what you mean.- ..he doesn't crave power.
0:56:33 > 0:56:35He's not in it just for himself.
0:56:35 > 0:56:37It's not just his own ego that he's trying to fulfil.
0:56:37 > 0:56:41He really does care. Whatever you say about him, he really does care.
0:56:41 > 0:56:43Nigel Lawson?
0:56:43 > 0:56:46I have no wish to intrude in private grief.
0:56:46 > 0:56:48LAUGHTER
0:56:48 > 0:56:50You've got enough of your own in the Conservative Party.
0:56:50 > 0:56:53The Labour Party is in a terrible mess, which Lisa knows,
0:56:53 > 0:56:55although she won't admit it in public.
0:56:55 > 0:56:59The Labour Members of Parliament are in despair,
0:56:59 > 0:57:03the great majority, and I hope they will sort it out
0:57:03 > 0:57:07because we do need, for a functioning democracy,
0:57:07 > 0:57:10we need a strong opposition as well as a strong government.
0:57:10 > 0:57:17But, at the moment, it is a mess. It is for them to sort it out.
0:57:17 > 0:57:19OK, I'll take one more point before we stop.
0:57:19 > 0:57:22You in the white shirt there, yes?
0:57:22 > 0:57:24Yeah, I would agree with what Ben says.
0:57:24 > 0:57:27I think that Jeremy Corbyn is a principled man.
0:57:27 > 0:57:29I think he is in it for himself.
0:57:29 > 0:57:32What I am concerned about is the fact that under his leadership,
0:57:32 > 0:57:36there has been all this vicious anti-Semitic invective
0:57:36 > 0:57:38that has popped out of the woodwork.
0:57:38 > 0:57:42We've had Naz Shah, we've had Ken Livingstone, most recently.
0:57:42 > 0:57:44This wasn't happening under Tony Blair,
0:57:44 > 0:57:46- so I have to question why is this the case.- OK.
0:57:49 > 0:57:53Just one week before that, there was a lot of Islamophobia at...
0:57:53 > 0:57:56I can't remember his name, the London candidate.
0:57:56 > 0:57:59- The media didn't go for that. - Zac Goldsmith.
0:57:59 > 0:58:01- The media didn't go for that. - David Cameron.- All right.
0:58:01 > 0:58:04APPLAUSE
0:58:04 > 0:58:08Well, we have to stop waiting
0:58:08 > 0:58:12for that result, and the result of the result, because our time's up.
0:58:12 > 0:58:14We're going to be in Aberdeen next week.
0:58:14 > 0:58:16We're in Walsall the week after that,
0:58:16 > 0:58:18so if you'd like to come to Question Time,
0:58:18 > 0:58:21apply to the website, the address on the screen there,
0:58:21 > 0:58:24or call:
0:58:24 > 0:58:28As ever, if you're listening on Radio 5 live, in the bath,
0:58:28 > 0:58:30the debate continues, as you know, on Question Time...
0:58:30 > 0:58:33That's what people say they do, watch the first half on television,
0:58:33 > 0:58:36watch the second half in the bath. Well, listen to it.
0:58:36 > 0:58:38Anyway, that's by the way.
0:58:38 > 0:58:41You can continue the debate on Question Time Extra Time.
0:58:41 > 0:58:45My thanks to this panel and to our audience here.
0:58:45 > 0:58:47From Manchester, until next Thursday, good night.