:00:07. > :00:18.We are in the town Hall of Walsall in the West Midlands tonight, and of
:00:19. > :00:25.course, this is Question Time. Good evening and welcome to you,
:00:26. > :00:29.television, radio, everybody in the studio and our panel. The
:00:30. > :00:33.Conservative Energy Secretary, Amber Rudd. Labour's Yvette Cooper, who
:00:34. > :00:37.lost out to Jeremy Corbyn in last year's leadership election. Leader
:00:38. > :00:44.of the Liberal Democrats, Tim Farron. A pity leader of Ukip, Paul
:00:45. > :00:47.Nuttall. And the broadcaster who left Channel 4 News to be free to
:00:48. > :00:58.campaign for radical left policies, Paul Mason.
:00:59. > :01:05.Thanks very much. Just a reminder before our first question, if you
:01:06. > :01:11.want to get involved in the debate, Facebook, Twitter and text. Push the
:01:12. > :01:17.red button if you want to see what others are saying. Daniel Robertson
:01:18. > :01:23.has the first question. Is it racist to want to leave the European Union?
:01:24. > :01:31.This is in the light, is it not, of Pat Glass, Labour's shadow Europe
:01:32. > :01:35.minister who was recorded saying of somebody who wanted Brexit and said
:01:36. > :01:41.that the Polish were scroungers, that he was a horrible racist. That
:01:42. > :01:48.happened today. Is it racist to want to leave the EU? Paul Nuttall. Not
:01:49. > :01:53.at all. This is a window into the heart of the Labour Party, that this
:01:54. > :01:58.was said. At the general election in 2010, Gordon Brown said something
:01:59. > :02:04.very similar about Gillian Duffy, when he called her a bigoted woman.
:02:05. > :02:08.And look, what we are saying, those of us who want to leave the European
:02:09. > :02:12.Union, is that we want to enter the globe again, because at the moment
:02:13. > :02:17.we are tied to the slowest growing economic bloc on the planet. It is
:02:18. > :02:22.not racist to be concerned about immigration because we are talking
:02:23. > :02:25.about numbers. The figures released today in terms of employment are
:02:26. > :02:30.frightening. The fact that five out of six new jobs went to people who
:02:31. > :02:34.were not born here, would seem to be putting British people at the back
:02:35. > :02:39.of the queue. And we know from the ONS report last week that 800,000
:02:40. > :02:43.people came from the European Union last year, even though Government
:02:44. > :02:48.statistics tell us it was only 250 7000. We are basically under a
:02:49. > :02:53.deluge of people coming to this country and we need to control our
:02:54. > :02:57.own borders. It is not racist to say you want to control your borders,
:02:58. > :03:03.but the only way we will do that is by leaving the European Union on
:03:04. > :03:06.June 23. That figure of five out of six new jobs in fact does include
:03:07. > :03:10.half of them are people who live here already and they are British
:03:11. > :03:16.citizens, just happen to be born outside Britain. So why give the
:03:17. > :03:22.wrong figure? There are 5.2 million foreign workers in Britain, one in
:03:23. > :03:25.six in the workforce. 2.2 million have come from within the European
:03:26. > :03:31.Union. The problem with immigration is not just economic. We are finding
:03:32. > :03:33.wages are being driven down in working-class communities, and the
:03:34. > :03:38.Bank of England have admitted that is the case. But it is also the
:03:39. > :03:43.social problem. When we can control immigration and numbers, people can
:03:44. > :03:47.integrate sensibly. The problem is too many people are coming and
:03:48. > :03:47.people are not integrating into communities.
:03:48. > :03:56.APPLAUSE Let's come back to your shadow
:03:57. > :04:00.Europe minister saying this man was a horrible racist because he said
:04:01. > :04:04.the Polish were scroungers, a particular family. He has apologised
:04:05. > :04:09.and it is not racist to want to leave the European Union. It is not
:04:10. > :04:12.racist to be worried about immigration. Our concern is
:04:13. > :04:18.particularly about dodgy employers who undercut wages and jobs. I think
:04:19. > :04:21.something should be done about that. Where it is racist is some of the
:04:22. > :04:26.things we have seen, for example, in the Conservative campaign against
:04:27. > :04:30.Sadiq Khan, for being Muslim. I think you should always call out
:04:31. > :04:34.racism and you can do so at the same time as having a sensible debate
:04:35. > :04:38.about things like immigration. The trouble with what Paul has said is
:04:39. > :04:42.that there is actually a bit of a con going on. It is playing on
:04:43. > :04:47.people's fears and it is a con because what Paul has actually said,
:04:48. > :04:53.if Britain pulls out of Europe, is that he would want it to be the
:04:54. > :04:57.Norway model. I have not. Never in my life. You have said that. What
:04:58. > :05:01.Norway means is that you would have free movement. If you have the Swiss
:05:02. > :05:06.model you would also have free movement. There is a lot of false
:05:07. > :05:09.promise that it would change policies of statuary if we pull out.
:05:10. > :05:13.What I think is a serious problem is that you have had in the last few
:05:14. > :05:19.days, you have had Nigel Farage talking about there will somehow be
:05:20. > :05:25.violence on the streets, which is not dissimilar to what Enoch Powell
:05:26. > :05:30.said years ago. We also had Boris Johnson attacking President Obama
:05:31. > :05:33.for his half Kenyan heritage. And we have had Michael Gove saying that
:05:34. > :05:41.somehow the country will be overrun by Albanian criminals. I think that
:05:42. > :05:47.is playing on division. We know that the Leave campaign want to divide
:05:48. > :05:51.Britain from Europe. Why, if you say that... Just a minute. We should not
:05:52. > :06:00.be trying to divide communities from each other. That is wrong. Why did
:06:01. > :06:07.the Labour campaign, then, in a leaked document, say that if the
:06:08. > :06:11.question of immigration came up, you should move away from it, if it came
:06:12. > :06:18.up on the doorstep? I have always done the opposite. You think that is
:06:19. > :06:23.wrong? I think you may have asked me that before the last election. So
:06:24. > :06:28.what? You didn't answer it then and you are not answering now. I have
:06:29. > :06:31.always said you should be prepared to talk about immigration. I don't
:06:32. > :06:36.think you should switch the subject. I don't think it is wrong to talk
:06:37. > :06:39.about it. Whether it is about dodgy employers and exploitation, we
:06:40. > :06:43.should take stronger action on that. That should mean stronger laws in
:06:44. > :06:48.Britain against exploitation, because some of it, frankly, is
:06:49. > :06:52.modern slave. It also means we should work with other European
:06:53. > :06:55.countries to protect the rights of workers, defend them, rather than
:06:56. > :06:59.getting wood of them and dismissing them as red tape, as some in Ukip
:07:00. > :07:04.want to do, because that would make things worse. -- getting rid of
:07:05. > :07:09.them. I want to go back to the point about it not being racist to talk
:07:10. > :07:12.about immigration. We do need to acknowledge there are right-wing
:07:13. > :07:16.political parties like Britain first and the BNP that are exploiting this
:07:17. > :07:21.immigration debate to the point that it is fuelling horrific
:07:22. > :07:24.Islamophobia, to their benefit, by saying we have so many immigrants
:07:25. > :07:28.coming here from different countries. It even echoes the Enoch
:07:29. > :07:32.Powell rivers of blood speech, or Margaret Thatcher talking about
:07:33. > :07:36.aliens on our own street. It is alienating Muslims and people that
:07:37. > :07:40.come here from other countries. With a climate where we need to be united
:07:41. > :07:45.in the face of terror attacks, we are alienating people and making
:07:46. > :07:45.them feel unwelcome, and the BNP are exploiting this.
:07:46. > :07:57.APPLAUSE Being against immigration is not
:07:58. > :08:03.racist at all. The problem is that the immigrants when they come, they
:08:04. > :08:06.don't go and live in Islington or Morningside in Edinburgh, Saint
:08:07. > :08:11.Davidsson Wales. They come to Walsall, to Wolverhampton, to
:08:12. > :08:16.Toxteth. The schools are ready over crowded. You can't get a place at
:08:17. > :08:25.the doctor. We are too full. Put up the shot signs. Paul Mason. I don't
:08:26. > :08:28.think it is racist to want to leave Europe, because I want to leave
:08:29. > :08:32.Europe and I count myself as somebody who has fought against
:08:33. > :08:35.racism or iLife. The reason I want to leave Europe is because it is
:08:36. > :08:38.impossible for the European to be a democracy. Simple as that.
:08:39. > :08:49.APPLAUSE I don't care how much it costs. If
:08:50. > :08:54.it was doing its job, it would be worth paying. I think we are going
:08:55. > :08:57.to need more migrants. I also think we have educated take refugees. But
:08:58. > :09:06.let's put this to one side and think about this European choice. -- we
:09:07. > :09:10.have a duty to take refugees. I am very unlikely to vote for Brexit on
:09:11. > :09:14.the day because I do not want to hand power to a bunch of crazed,
:09:15. > :09:18.right-wing Conservatives. APPLAUSE
:09:19. > :09:25.I do not include you in this. You are a non-crazed right-wing
:09:26. > :09:32.Conservative. So this once-in-a-lifetime chance... I think
:09:33. > :09:35.there will be another chance because the European Union is
:09:36. > :09:39.disintegrating. Half of the governments of East Europe are
:09:40. > :09:45.racist. Eastern European governments are coming forward with people who
:09:46. > :09:49.want coalitions with the far right. How can this persist? For us to go
:09:50. > :09:54.forward, I do not want Michael Gove and Boris Johnson given the chance
:09:55. > :09:58.to shape written's Constitution in future with no election, no promise
:09:59. > :10:02.of election, no further referendum on what deal we do. I will be
:10:03. > :10:09.looking carefully at what the position is as I go into that ballot
:10:10. > :10:14.box. So you might vote Remain? I might. There are things that Remain
:10:15. > :10:19.can do to convince me. One would be to promise a -- an election within
:10:20. > :10:22.six months of the referendum, so we can all decide on the future
:10:23. > :10:31.relationship with Europe. That is democracy. The short answer is, no,
:10:32. > :10:35.I don't think it is racist. I thought the point the lady brought
:10:36. > :10:40.up is interesting, because she highlighted the real difficulty of
:10:41. > :10:44.language in this particular debate. Because this is an incredibly
:10:45. > :10:50.important, historic choice everybody will be making on June 23. So all
:10:51. > :10:54.sorts of groups are piling in. There are racist groups piling in and
:10:55. > :10:59.certainly they will vote to leave, and it does destabilise some of the
:11:00. > :11:03.language taking place. It is important not necessarily to think
:11:04. > :11:09.about who or which party will be in charge. This is a historic chance to
:11:10. > :11:15.change or stay in the EU for the UK. It is not about individuals. If we
:11:16. > :11:20.move away from individuals, perhaps there will be a few less insults
:11:21. > :11:24.flying around. Would you promise an election within six months of the
:11:25. > :11:29.vote? It is important to concentrate on the facts. This is another issue
:11:30. > :11:33.I would take issue with Paul on. When he trots out these facts, I do
:11:34. > :11:37.not think they are facts. Nine out of ten people employed in the UK are
:11:38. > :11:42.British-born. His facts are different to mine. One of the things
:11:43. > :11:46.we must be careful of is tabloid newspapers putting out headlines
:11:47. > :11:51.that are not facts. I would urge you to check them yourself, particularly
:11:52. > :11:56.on immigration. What do you say to the man at the top on the left, who
:11:57. > :12:00.said that people come here, to Toxteth, not to Islington and
:12:01. > :12:04.Morningside in Edinburgh. In other words, it is here that the schools
:12:05. > :12:11.are overcrowded, the NHS is under pressure. His concern, I believe, is
:12:12. > :12:14.that people come here without jobs to come to hand without
:12:15. > :12:18.contributing, and that is one of the changes the Prime Minister has made,
:12:19. > :12:23.so we can in courage people to come here only if they have jobs to come
:12:24. > :12:32.to. They cannot collect benefits for four years. Is that an answer, sir?
:12:33. > :12:37.It is not enough. According to the latest statistics come immigrants
:12:38. > :12:43.contributed over 2.5 billion tax for 2013-14. Do you know why there are
:12:44. > :12:46.so many immigrants and black people in Toxteth, because that is where
:12:47. > :12:55.they were taken as slaves, when Liverpool was a slave port. No, it
:12:56. > :13:03.wasn't. You are from Liverpool. Do you object to all the black people?
:13:04. > :13:09.Many of your supporters do. I don't. They came after 1945 when we had
:13:10. > :13:15.sensible immigration numbers. Between 45 and 97, up to 50,000
:13:16. > :13:19.people came every year, a sensible number so that people can
:13:20. > :13:32.assimilate. You cannot do that with 800,000 people coming. Tim Farron's
:13:33. > :13:36.turn, I think. Thank you. Daniel, your question, is it racist to want
:13:37. > :13:43.to leave the European Union and to talk about immigration? No, it
:13:44. > :13:47.isn't. I disagree with Paul, but I like him. I think he is sincere and
:13:48. > :13:52.believes what he believes. I believe he is wrong, but not a racist. What
:13:53. > :13:57.I think that Pat Glass and her remarks betray is that there are too
:13:58. > :14:02.many folks on the Remain side who are running away from the issue of
:14:03. > :14:06.immigration and migration. I will not do that. I will absolutely
:14:07. > :14:10.categorically say that immigration to this country is by far much more
:14:11. > :14:16.a blessing and a curse. APPLAUSE
:14:17. > :14:25.-- a blessing than a curse. Figures today say there are 2.1 million
:14:26. > :14:29.European citizens living and working and paying taxes in the United
:14:30. > :14:31.Kingdom. A figure of close to 2 million British people living and
:14:32. > :14:37.working or being retired elsewhere in the European Union. It is pretty
:14:38. > :14:41.much give-and-take. We have this rhetoric about the damage that
:14:42. > :14:45.migration has done to our country. Go to any A award and see who
:14:46. > :14:50.makes you better, who is looking after elderly parents in care homes,
:14:51. > :14:52.looking after our children. Migration is helpful and it
:14:53. > :14:56.strengthens this country, and being in the European Union allows us to
:14:57. > :15:01.move to other countries and others to come here. The fact that there
:15:02. > :15:04.are so many people in this country working and from other areas
:15:05. > :15:07.demonstrates the work ethic so many of these folks have and we should be
:15:08. > :15:15.proud they choose Britain as their home.
:15:16. > :15:21.I would like to address Paul and the gentleman about Walsall and
:15:22. > :15:25.immigration and blaming social care. It is a farce. Social care in this
:15:26. > :15:30.area is struggling because we are one of the biggest hit local
:15:31. > :15:35.government councils for cuts. Next year, we've got to find ?19 million.
:15:36. > :15:42.It's atrocious. Metropolitan councils have been kicked a hell of
:15:43. > :15:46.a lot more than any of the others. Birmingham is the largest authority
:15:47. > :15:50.in Europe and it has had massive cuts. We can't blame immigration.
:15:51. > :15:54.We've got to blame the Conservative government and the cuts that are
:15:55. > :16:03.hitting the most vulnerable and leaving people in crisis. Hold on.
:16:04. > :16:07.Let's hear some more points. I'd like to completely disagree with the
:16:08. > :16:12.remarks made by the gentleman at the top left. The US has been described
:16:13. > :16:17.as a great melting pot where everybody is fused together to make
:16:18. > :16:22.something better. Shouldn't we encourage immigration from the EU to
:16:23. > :16:28.evade a demographic crisis? On the top right. Iron I'd like to take
:16:29. > :16:33.issue with Paul Mason's comments about right wing Conservatives.
:16:34. > :16:36.Millions of people voted Conservative in the last election.
:16:37. > :16:41.It was clear there was going to be a referendum on the manifesto. Jo
:16:42. > :16:46.Brand Conservatives generally, about 10 million people, as crazed
:16:47. > :16:56.right-wingers is appalling. -- Jo Brand Conservatives. It is
:16:57. > :17:05.appalling, the things you say. -- to brand. We now know what a ?35,000
:17:06. > :17:11.per year education at Eton buys you. It's the ability to stand up, to
:17:12. > :17:16.insult your opponents, if you are not winning the argument to raise
:17:17. > :17:20.ridiculous point about the EU banning banana bunches more than
:17:21. > :17:27.three. If that doesn't work, you tussle your hair and green inanely.
:17:28. > :17:34.If I paid ?35,000 a year and sent somebody to Eton and they came at
:17:35. > :17:41.doing that, I'd be disgusted. We could do with less personal insults.
:17:42. > :17:45.I'm talking about Boris Johnson, who has the based... I'm sorry, he is
:17:46. > :17:49.debasing the rationality of this debate and you should be worried
:17:50. > :17:55.that this guy could be leading your party if he wins the referendum. I'm
:17:56. > :17:59.not worried about that. I am worried about the personal insults. A art, a
:18:00. > :18:06.brilliant man, and you are focusing on somebody's education, rather than
:18:07. > :18:11.the arguments. John Major was saying that the Tory right was adopting the
:18:12. > :18:15.Ukip argument. This is what the Tories will become if the right-wing
:18:16. > :18:20.faction get their way. It is this that frightened me above everything
:18:21. > :18:26.else, less than Ukip. We don't know what these guys will do if they take
:18:27. > :18:30.control of your party. It must be appalling for you, Paul. You long
:18:31. > :18:38.for Brexit and you don't dare vote for it. We will get another chance.
:18:39. > :18:43.This is the chance. One of the things that Boris Johnson actually
:18:44. > :18:48.said before of this -- before this all started was that he would like a
:18:49. > :18:52.referendum on the result of the negotiation. That would be something
:18:53. > :18:55.that those of us who are worried about an uncontrolled right-wing
:18:56. > :19:02.Brexit would like to see. You could deliver it, you are in the council
:19:03. > :19:07.-- you are a Privy Council. People want to know the facts. There is a
:19:08. > :19:10.reason you are straying away from Boris Johnson as an individual,
:19:11. > :19:18.because he might be Lorne leader in six weeks' time. -- he might be your
:19:19. > :19:26.leader. You might be leading a party, within six months' time. I
:19:27. > :19:30.understand why Amber Rudd is saying she doesn't want it to be personal,
:19:31. > :19:35.because it does feel it has become personal in the Tory party. I think
:19:36. > :19:39.too much of this debate has been Tory politicians having a go at each
:19:40. > :19:43.other. That is probably why we haven't heard enough about things
:19:44. > :19:49.like workers' right in Europe. That is why, as well, we haven't heard
:19:50. > :19:56.enough about them is like jobs in manufacturing in our industrial
:19:57. > :20:01.towns. I have some sympathy with Paul. In the end, I don't really
:20:02. > :20:06.care if two old Etonians want to have a slug out against the future
:20:07. > :20:13.of the Tory party but I care if they are putting people's livelihood at
:20:14. > :20:16.risk over a political game. We've got another EU question which arises
:20:17. > :20:23.from this. Have you all had this booklet? It comes from this, and the
:20:24. > :20:32.question is from Dominic. This is the electoral commission voting
:20:33. > :20:42.guide for the referendum. The Remain campaign says that we... Who is
:20:43. > :20:50.right? The Remain, every count that we put in, we get ?10 back. Leave,
:20:51. > :20:55.put ?3 50 in and you only get half back. Somebody isn't telling the
:20:56. > :20:59.truth. What Remain is doing is focusing on the benefits to the
:21:00. > :21:03.economy, the fact that we get investment into the UK, because we
:21:04. > :21:08.are part of the platform access to the EU. It is working out the
:21:09. > :21:13.benefit, 10-1, of having that investment and access to the single
:21:14. > :21:17.market. Leave are comparing it to how much it costs because they are
:21:18. > :21:22.simply looking at the bill for being a member of this club, then netting
:21:23. > :21:26.off the rebate and any other money that is the cost of what we get
:21:27. > :21:31.back. They are not looking at the enormous benefits that we get from
:21:32. > :21:39.the single market. And you think it can be costed ?10 for every pound
:21:40. > :21:42.you put in? I have put -- spent 20 years covering economics and I have
:21:43. > :21:47.learned not to take account of these figures. They are pulled out of
:21:48. > :21:51.abstract thinking, equations that don't add up. In the end, people
:21:52. > :21:57.have to take this decision on the basis, not of this mirage of facts
:21:58. > :22:02.that we keep getting the media is bombarding us with facts and, the
:22:03. > :22:07.more we get, the less we understand. You've got take a decision on the
:22:08. > :22:10.basis of, do you believe in the institutions? Do you believe it can
:22:11. > :22:15.be reformed and it can deliver what you want as British people on the
:22:16. > :22:18.day, and then what the concrete consequences on the day of the
:22:19. > :22:24.particular political leadership? If it cost us double what it says, if
:22:25. > :22:28.it worked, it would be worth paying. My concern is... One of the reasons
:22:29. > :22:32.the Tory right is so annoyed is because they are now getting the
:22:33. > :22:36.treatment the Scots got during the independence referendum. They are
:22:37. > :22:41.getting the whole of the official state apparatus, the Bank of
:22:42. > :22:45.England, the Treasury, pumping out propaganda for Remain that has no
:22:46. > :22:52.ability to be challenged. Those of us who have would like to see a
:22:53. > :22:55.different outcome have no ability to challenge what the Bank of England
:22:56. > :23:01.and the Treasury are modelling. Red everybody keeps asking for the
:23:02. > :23:06.facts. All mason says that they don't mean anything anyway. -- Paul
:23:07. > :23:13.Mason. Probably the only thing more depressing than the referendum and
:23:14. > :23:16.the fistfight between two old schoolmates is the concentrating of
:23:17. > :23:20.facts and figures. It doesn't mean they are not important. We've got to
:23:21. > :23:24.make a judgment as to what is in the best interest of our country, as
:23:25. > :23:29.individuals and families. Some things do stack up. The single
:23:30. > :23:35.market is worth ?78 billion per year to the UK. We are net contributors
:23:36. > :23:39.to the EU, to the tune of about 6.5 billion per year. You've got to work
:23:40. > :23:44.out whether that is a good deal. I think it is. What I am desperate for
:23:45. > :23:49.is something a bit more uplifting in this debate. The reason I will vote
:23:50. > :23:53.to remain on June 23 isn't just the economy, it's about a statement of
:23:54. > :23:58.what kind of country I belong to, what kind of country is Britain. Are
:23:59. > :24:03.we outward looking? Or do we want to stand on the white cliffs of Dover,
:24:04. > :24:07.glowering across the English Channel? I want Britain to be the
:24:08. > :24:14.kind of country that is engaged with the outside world. We have built
:24:15. > :24:18.piece over the past 75 years ago. There were nuclear weapons on their
:24:19. > :24:22.soil pointed at the West Midlands and the rest of the UK. Today, we
:24:23. > :24:31.work together. That is the kind of Europe I want my children to grow
:24:32. > :24:35.into. A reminder that Dominic's question was about who we believe on
:24:36. > :24:41.the money. I think we need to get back to the basics of the discussion
:24:42. > :24:47.and get understanding what this is about. It isn't about personality.
:24:48. > :24:50.It is about two basic things. Can we manage the country ourselves or will
:24:51. > :24:57.we continue to be told from a group of 27 other countries what we can do
:24:58. > :25:02.and can't do and how we should do it, but we've got to foot the bill?
:25:03. > :25:08.Surely we could take the money back ourselves and make better use of it?
:25:09. > :25:18.So you don't believe the figures? It's a lot of nonsense. Independent
:25:19. > :25:22.is a perfectly fair question, but I think ignores the reality of the
:25:23. > :25:28.modern world. The EU isn't the only way in which we pool our
:25:29. > :25:32.sovereignty. Nato, the world trade organisation, the most democratic if
:25:33. > :25:37.the EU. Talking about these leaflets, I am depressed by
:25:38. > :25:40.politics. The EU referendum has shown how broken the system is.
:25:41. > :25:45.Within parties, you've got infighting. One set of parties
:25:46. > :25:50.saying one lot of figures. We are being lied to and there isn't a
:25:51. > :25:55.genuine debate. The EU referendum has shown the ugliest side of where
:25:56. > :26:02.politics is. It is the same people on either side of the chamber, to be
:26:03. > :26:09.honest. To answer the original question... You are good at
:26:10. > :26:13.answering questions. We are getting all sorts of facts and figures in
:26:14. > :26:18.the ground. One economist will say one thing and then somebody else
:26:19. > :26:22.will say the alternative. The ex-head of MI6 said we would be more
:26:23. > :26:27.secure if we were out, others saying the opposite. This will go on until
:26:28. > :26:30.the day. It will be up to you guys to make the decision of whether you
:26:31. > :26:36.want Britain to be stuck within the slowest growing economic bloc on the
:26:37. > :26:39.planet. He is saying it is a disreputable campaign in which
:26:40. > :26:45.people are attacking each other in the way you have been describing and
:26:46. > :26:49.experts saying opposite things. How do you restore confidence? I want to
:26:50. > :26:55.get away from personalities and campaign on the real facts and
:26:56. > :26:59.figures. It is costing us ?55 million every single day to be
:27:00. > :27:03.members of the European Union. That is the gross figure. Hold on. Then
:27:04. > :27:09.we get the rebate back. And then they give us a portion of money back
:27:10. > :27:13.and then they tell us how to spend our own money. If you walk round
:27:14. > :27:19.Wolverhampton or Birmingham, you will see signed up saying, thank the
:27:20. > :27:24.European Union, this project was built with EU money. There is no
:27:25. > :27:29.such thing, it's your money, your taxation, and that money should
:27:30. > :27:37.stayed here to be spent on our schools, hospitals and transport
:27:38. > :27:41.network. What is the economic cost of a disenfranchised population, as
:27:42. > :27:46.expressed by the chat at the front? We are losing interest in Europe. We
:27:47. > :27:53.got no influence over it. That will have an economic cost down the line.
:27:54. > :27:58.Could you ask your question again, please? What is the economic cost of
:27:59. > :28:03.having a disenfranchised population. The man at the front expressed it
:28:04. > :28:07.well. I think people are feeling quite alienated from this whole
:28:08. > :28:11.debate and everything being thrown around to and fro. If you go through
:28:12. > :28:16.the facts, Paul did go further than a lot of the Leave campaigners by
:28:17. > :28:24.conceding that actually they figured they use, this ?350 million, is
:28:25. > :28:27.wrong. The statistics authority has said it is misleading and dodgy to
:28:28. > :28:33.use it. Yeah, there is a contribution, and in return what we
:28:34. > :28:38.get is access to the single market, and that makes it so much easier for
:28:39. > :28:42.our businesses to trade. What you get on the other side is different
:28:43. > :28:46.estimates, and they are estimates by economist based on a whole load of
:28:47. > :28:51.evidence and analysis about what it would cost if we pull out of the
:28:52. > :28:56.single market and how much trade we would lose. Is this right what it
:28:57. > :29:03.says on the Remain site, for every ?1 we put in we get ?10 back? It is
:29:04. > :29:08.an estimate by economists... One of the estimates. You were chief
:29:09. > :29:15.secretary of the Treasury. Do you think they've got it right? I think
:29:16. > :29:19.it is as accurate as any other. It is important, because it is
:29:20. > :29:27.official. No body knows until you know what the trade deal is that is
:29:28. > :29:32.done. Why put it in? People want facts so we do our best to give them
:29:33. > :29:43.facts. Ultimately, it is a judgment. You don't say it is a judgment here.
:29:44. > :29:47.APPLAUSE These are the facts that I believe
:29:48. > :29:56.to be true but Paul believes different ones. There is one bottom
:29:57. > :30:00.line. Your question was, what is the economic cost of a disenfranchised
:30:01. > :30:04.population. We who are involved in public life should take that
:30:05. > :30:10.seriously. I want to save the steel industry. I drive past Port Talbot
:30:11. > :30:15.steelworks. It is a brilliant bit of structural asset for this country.
:30:16. > :30:18.The European Union rules say we can't. That is basically what it
:30:19. > :30:24.says. In addition, the European Commission itself has refused to
:30:25. > :30:30.fight for the whole European Union steel industry in the world market.
:30:31. > :30:35.If I could deselect the European Commission, believe me, I would. If
:30:36. > :30:41.we could elect it and bring it under democratic control, that would be
:30:42. > :30:45.good. But the treaty prevents us doing so and it prevents a future
:30:46. > :30:48.Labour government from saving steel, it prevents them from nationalising
:30:49. > :30:55.the railways, and this to me is the bread and butter as to why we have
:30:56. > :31:01.to look critically at the European Union. And you will still vote to
:31:02. > :31:06.remain? I am saying that the economic case for Brexit is strong,
:31:07. > :31:10.as is the political, but the Brexit people don't need to be dictated to
:31:11. > :31:17.by a Tory right about when and under what conditions we do so.
:31:18. > :31:25.I think there is a lot of nonsense said about how the EU stops us doing
:31:26. > :31:29.a lot of things. Often, the Tory government will use the EU as an
:31:30. > :31:33.excuse not to take action on steel when it could have done. We have the
:31:34. > :31:37.same issue around the coal industry in my constituency when the last pit
:31:38. > :31:42.closed. EU said they would be able to help and the Tory government
:31:43. > :31:46.said, we can't. Too often it is used as an excuse not to take action when
:31:47. > :31:50.we can. When it comes back to the point about the facts, people will
:31:51. > :31:55.throw different numbers at you but the bottom line in the end is that
:31:56. > :31:58.the cost of trade will be higher. If we are outside the single market,
:31:59. > :32:02.the cost of trade will be higher. They will give us a worse steel than
:32:03. > :32:09.we have now. Why would they let us be in the club and give us a worse
:32:10. > :32:15.deal? We deal with this subject every week. We have spent half the
:32:16. > :32:21.programme on it. You can have one sentence, Tim, and then I will move
:32:22. > :32:24.on. Not a long sentence. What we have seen in the steel industry is
:32:25. > :32:28.the consequence of Chinese government actions and Indian
:32:29. > :32:31.business decisions, proving that we are interconnected as a global and
:32:32. > :32:36.we are far better off together with our neighbours standing up to those
:32:37. > :32:42.economic threats than on our own. I am going to move on because we have
:32:43. > :32:45.taken half an hour and I don't think it is fair if every programme is
:32:46. > :32:50.entirely about the EU because we have a long way to go and a lot of
:32:51. > :32:58.debate before we reach that date in June when Paul Mason has to decide
:32:59. > :33:03.how to cast his vote. And millions of other people. We are going to be
:33:04. > :33:08.in Ipswich next week and Cardiff the week after that. On screen, you can
:33:09. > :33:16.see how to apply. Let's move on for a question from
:33:17. > :33:21.Kevin Wilkes. After the junior doctors debacle, isn't it time for
:33:22. > :33:31.the NHS to be run independently, rather than continually being a
:33:32. > :33:35.political football? Tim Farron. It is certainly time for it to stop
:33:36. > :33:42.being used as a political football, to answer your question
:33:43. > :33:45.specifically. If Beveridge, the Liberal, who wrote the blueprint for
:33:46. > :33:49.the National Health Service in the 1940s, if in his day we had been
:33:50. > :33:54.living to the ages we are now, there is no question whatsoever that he
:33:55. > :33:57.would have included social care in with the National Health Service.
:33:58. > :34:01.The fact that it is disconnected from the National Health Service has
:34:02. > :34:05.to be addressed, as does the relegation of mental health services
:34:06. > :34:07.behind physical health services. We should be massively proud of the
:34:08. > :34:11.National Health Service but let's not kid ourselves that we are
:34:12. > :34:16.spending enough on it. We are not. We spend less as a percentage of GDP
:34:17. > :34:22.on our health service than most other European countries. It is time
:34:23. > :34:24.for a new Beveridge deal for all parties, to put aside the
:34:25. > :34:27.politicking over the National Health Service and recognise we need that
:34:28. > :34:32.new deal to protect it for the future. It is no good putting the
:34:33. > :34:35.emphasis on junior doctors, as has happened, to try and stretch out the
:34:36. > :34:40.resource so the government can meet a commitment it could never meet. It
:34:41. > :34:44.is time for a new resource, a new deal for the National Health
:34:45. > :34:45.Service, including mental health and social care.
:34:46. > :34:53.APPLAUSE You are talking about finding more
:34:54. > :34:57.money for the NHS. In the end, that is necessary. The question is about
:34:58. > :35:02.whether it can be taken out of politics. Is that what you meant? I
:35:03. > :35:07.agree with everything said about bringing in social care and mental
:35:08. > :35:10.health, but for as long as I can a member, Labour have obviously thrown
:35:11. > :35:14.accusations at the Tories about looking to privatise and cut
:35:15. > :35:19.everywhere. It has been gone back the other way, Labour being accused
:35:20. > :35:24.of wasting money and spending on middle management. It is something
:35:25. > :35:28.both sides of the quite heart always fighting each other over. What
:35:29. > :35:32.should really be happening is people who know how to run the NHS and how
:35:33. > :35:37.to run these things should be in place. They should be given whatever
:35:38. > :35:37.money they need and allowed to run it.
:35:38. > :35:49.APPLAUSE I work in the NHS. When I joined,
:35:50. > :35:53.the first thing I was told was that every time a new political party
:35:54. > :35:59.joins it will change and it will go around in circles and we will waste
:36:00. > :36:02.a lot of money, and when the Primary Care Trusts went down, the e-mail
:36:03. > :36:08.address is changed and it was the same people. Incredible waste of
:36:09. > :36:15.money. Jeremy Hunt should resign for his treatment of junior doctors. It
:36:16. > :36:18.is appalling. They are hard workers and do not deserve what the
:36:19. > :36:20.Conservatives have done to them. Shame. He should resign.
:36:21. > :36:30.APPLAUSE Amber Rudd. Jeremy Hunt should go.
:36:31. > :36:33.Naturally, I don't agree with that and I would congratulate the
:36:34. > :36:40.combination of Jeremy Hunt and a junior doctors and the BMA on coming
:36:41. > :36:43.to an agreement today. The lies, the lies. Don't you welcome the fact
:36:44. > :36:52.that the dispute is now, we have, over. The fact is, we made a
:36:53. > :36:57.manifesto commitment to deliver a seven-day NHS. Through lies, misuse
:36:58. > :37:03.of statistics. An agreement has been reached and it is a relief. Why has
:37:04. > :37:09.he waited so many months to do it? APPLAUSE
:37:10. > :37:15.There is a Chief Executive of the NHS and he was put in place in order
:37:16. > :37:19.to take it out of being a political football so he could put together
:37:20. > :37:23.the plan, which he did, under the last Government, to say how much
:37:24. > :37:27.money was needed. He said how much was needed and that is why we have
:37:28. > :37:30.put it up so it can be done. Can I say, the real difference between a
:37:31. > :37:34.Conservative government and a Labour government is that we have a strong
:37:35. > :37:39.economy that is enabling us to put in that 10 billion. The finances we
:37:40. > :37:43.inherited from you in 2010 were such a disaster there would have been no
:37:44. > :37:48.chance to be able to deliver on the strong NHS that we are now able to
:37:49. > :37:53.finance because we have a stronger economy. Let's deal with the
:37:54. > :37:58.original question which was, OK, you obviously need wealth to fund the
:37:59. > :38:02.NHS, whichever party is in power. The question was why can it not be
:38:03. > :38:08.run independently, in other words, give money to it independently? That
:38:09. > :38:12.is why we put in place a Chief Executive. What happened when you
:38:13. > :38:20.were in government, your party did this, the NHS act 2010, it made the
:38:21. > :38:23.NHS into an independent body, so the idea was the Secretary of State
:38:24. > :38:25.would have nothing to do with it. Jeremy Hunt spends every morning
:38:26. > :38:30.biting his fingernails over the next A closure. He is micromanaging the
:38:31. > :38:36.NHS from his own department because the act that you and the Tories put
:38:37. > :38:41.into place did not work. What it did was shovel large parts of the NHS
:38:42. > :38:44.into the hands of private companies, many of whom just happen to have
:38:45. > :38:52.directors and owners who are in the Tory party. That is what has
:38:53. > :38:57.happened. Which act are you talking about? I hope the junior doctors
:38:58. > :39:02.throw that deal back in their face. I hope they do. What about the
:39:03. > :39:13.patients. The patients support the junior doctors. Go and meet them. Go
:39:14. > :39:20.to Walsall. First, I rebelled on the NHS bill. Secondly, the key point in
:39:21. > :39:23.all of this, on the junior doctors debate, it is a reminder that
:39:24. > :39:26.resource is the issue. If you keep pushing the ball down the road it
:39:27. > :39:31.will never be solved. It does need to be an all-party thing. If we are
:39:32. > :39:37.going to bring in social care, advance mental health, it will cost
:39:38. > :39:41.more. It will never happen if one party is scoring points of the
:39:42. > :39:47.other, only if there is a new Beveridge- style consensus. But how
:39:48. > :39:51.do you achieve that? Is it achievable? I hope so, because it is
:39:52. > :39:54.the thing that people believe in, probably the most treasured national
:39:55. > :40:09.institution, with the second being the BBC which has also seen a lot of
:40:10. > :40:18.attacks recently. Who was bullying? Booing? Amber did not answer my
:40:19. > :40:22.question of why were these concessions not made months ago? Why
:40:23. > :40:25.have we had people have appointments cancelled, stress on hospitals,
:40:26. > :40:30.really undermining the morale of some of the most important assets to
:40:31. > :40:36.the National Health Service, the people who work in it? That is what
:40:37. > :40:42.he has put at risk. Would it be possible, together to the question,
:40:43. > :40:45.to have some kind of institution, we have had this, therefore, some kind
:40:46. > :40:50.of institution which was agreed between all parties should run the
:40:51. > :40:55.National health? The Chancellor of the Exchequer would give the money,
:40:56. > :40:58.but the detail would not be in the hands of party politicians, not the
:40:59. > :41:04.hands of Jeremy Hunt or a Labour minister. I think you want as much
:41:05. > :41:09.decision-making as possible taken by medical professionals, the experts
:41:10. > :41:12.who should be running hospitals, primary care and running care in the
:41:13. > :41:17.community as well. The only thing I would caution is that if what you
:41:18. > :41:20.simply do is to say we are going to pass all the responsibility but it
:41:21. > :41:24.is still going to be the government writing the check, and not writing a
:41:25. > :41:29.big enough cheque and doing the things it needs to do, then you have
:41:30. > :41:33.a problem. The second thing is, I think they should be accountable to
:41:34. > :41:36.local communities. We would be better having more accountability
:41:37. > :41:39.for the National Health Service and social care together in local
:41:40. > :41:42.communities, rather than it be simply something that a Health
:41:43. > :41:50.Secretary can way into whenever he wants to make a political point and
:41:51. > :41:54.pick a fight. I am so glad we're having this discussion. I think it
:41:55. > :41:58.should be taken out of the hands of politicians. I am on the board of
:41:59. > :42:01.one of the local NHS Trusts and every five or six years you see this
:42:02. > :42:06.pattern of change when the political cycle changes. You need it to be
:42:07. > :42:11.taken out of the influence of political environments. The one
:42:12. > :42:16.thing everyone needs to do is to level with the population in terms
:42:17. > :42:20.of what is really going on. There is a humongous demand in the NHS and it
:42:21. > :42:24.is nothing to do with immigrants. It is absolutely everything to do with
:42:25. > :42:29.ageing demographics, the diseases we can cure now, which we could not
:42:30. > :42:33.before, and the demands placed on resources available. You have to
:42:34. > :42:38.level with the population. Does tax go up, does the service go down?
:42:39. > :42:41.What are you promising? At the moment, you are trying to make
:42:42. > :42:47.things add up and they will not. APPLAUSE
:42:48. > :42:55.I think we already lies we are heading towards all of us have it
:42:56. > :43:00.have a debate about the NHS. -- we all realise. We have an ageing
:43:01. > :43:04.population, a growing population, drugs are becoming more expensive.
:43:05. > :43:10.It is a debate we will have to have as grown-ups as we move into the
:43:11. > :43:14.21st-century. What is your answer? My answer is that we will have to
:43:15. > :43:17.spend more money in future and that will have to go to a general
:43:18. > :43:20.election and a political party will have to put it to the electorate to
:43:21. > :43:25.see whether they are willing to plough more into the NHS. So
:43:26. > :43:30.taxation is your route? I thought your route was to get people to pay
:43:31. > :43:35.individually? Our manifesto at the last general election shed -- said
:43:36. > :43:41.we would plough an extra 3 billion each year into the NHS. The biggest
:43:42. > :43:44.immediate threat to the NHS comes from the transatlantic trade
:43:45. > :43:49.investment partnership, which the European Union is negotiating now
:43:50. > :43:53.with the United States. There is an article in that called the investor
:43:54. > :43:55.state dispute settlement which will allow American corporations to sue
:43:56. > :44:03.the National Health Service if they do not get what they want. Example,
:44:04. > :44:06.at the moment you have Philip Morris suing the Australian government
:44:07. > :44:09.because the Australian government have harmed their profits by
:44:10. > :44:13.bringing in plain packaging. That could happen in the NHS and the only
:44:14. > :44:23.way we can protect the NHS is by voting to leave on June the 23rd.
:44:24. > :44:27.That is rubbish. Amber Rudd, you clear this up. This was in the
:44:28. > :44:30.Queens speech and I thought there was an amendment to exclude the NHS
:44:31. > :44:40.from this agreement. That is correct. The government already
:44:41. > :44:43.takes the view that... Not takes the view, legislates. The first position
:44:44. > :44:50.is that we take the view that the NHS is excluded. And you are right,
:44:51. > :44:54.Mr Chairman, we have agreed that additional legislation will be in
:44:55. > :44:58.place to reassure everybody so they can be absolutely clear the NHS will
:44:59. > :45:02.not be included. While I have the floor, may I say that I think you
:45:03. > :45:06.are absolutely right on your point that there are expectations that we
:45:07. > :45:11.have to manage. We have to decide whether we are going to carry on
:45:12. > :45:13.with what we believe and hope can be a first-class service, with
:45:14. > :45:19.additional problems, and if we are going to pay for them. That debate
:45:20. > :45:22.has to take place. In terms of the independence of the NHS, part of
:45:23. > :45:26.that has been given to the new Chief Executive. He puts together the plan
:45:27. > :45:29.and it goes to the Chancellor and he says, this is what we need to
:45:30. > :45:34.deliver on it. So maybe that system needs to be beefed up, but the
:45:35. > :45:42.principles of doing that, we have put in place.
:45:43. > :45:50.The funds he asked for were taken down a bit. That's correct, but the
:45:51. > :45:55.junior doctors issue, did go back to that, in any organisation,
:45:56. > :45:59.leadership is so immensely important, and Jeremy Hunt, whether
:46:00. > :46:04.right or not, have a leadership important in this, and how we have
:46:05. > :46:07.managed this dispute... He took a leaf out of how Michael Gove managed
:46:08. > :46:12.teachers. If you have a group of people to move towards a certain
:46:13. > :46:16.end, the last thing you do is demoralise them. I am concerned
:46:17. > :46:19.about all those young people out there who might become doctors and
:46:20. > :46:24.medics in the future and think, that isn't for me. He has turned off a
:46:25. > :46:30.generation of people who might otherwise have gone into the health
:46:31. > :46:35.service. Hold on. Just for the people who are never quite sure what
:46:36. > :46:41.TTIP is, what exactly is the implication, as an economist, of
:46:42. > :46:49.TTIP on the NHS? In layman's language? It is a binding treaty
:46:50. > :46:54.that says, look, we, Britain, and Europe, have to open up our markets
:46:55. > :46:58.to American companies and that, if they are unfairly discriminated
:46:59. > :47:04.against, so you can't own the NHS, they can sue us in a court. You have
:47:05. > :47:09.to exempt the NHS. I would exempt a lot of other things. I would say
:47:10. > :47:14.that we should veto TTIP in Europe. It is likely to happen. I wouldn't
:47:15. > :47:18.see this as a leading or staying in issue for Europe. While I've got the
:47:19. > :47:27.floor, I will do what you lot haven't done. There is a $28 billion
:47:28. > :47:33.pounds tax cap in this country. It could be 128. That money should be
:47:34. > :47:42.collected from the tax dodging rich and used to pay for the NHS. You
:47:43. > :47:47.have made your point. Somebody mentioned Michael Gove on the other
:47:48. > :47:55.side of the table, let's have a question that might touch on him.
:47:56. > :47:59.Conrad, please. Prison reform includes suggestions that some
:48:00. > :48:06.prisoners will only go to prison at weekends and be given iPads. Are we
:48:07. > :48:10.being soft on crime? These are the suggestions from Michael Gove for
:48:11. > :48:14.reforms, and you may have seen the pictures of the chaos in Wandsworth
:48:15. > :48:19.prison and others, drugs being brought in by drones. Probably
:48:20. > :48:25.arranged by the department so that their position should be understood.
:48:26. > :48:31.The suggestion is, work at home during the week and more weekends,
:48:32. > :48:39.in prison. Are we being soft? Yvette Cooper. It depends what the crime is
:48:40. > :48:44.that has been committed. If people have committed violent, serious
:48:45. > :48:48.crimes, abuse, there has to be a proper sentence and the public has
:48:49. > :48:52.to be protected, but also vegans need to feel that actually justice
:48:53. > :48:57.is being done. -- victims. But with other crimes you could have very
:48:58. > :49:03.different sentencing where you don't end up having to have overcrowded
:49:04. > :49:08.prisons. It's sensible to look at that kind of reform, educational
:49:09. > :49:10.reform and rehabilitation, but a real problem I have with what they
:49:11. > :49:16.have announced this week is actually what they were really talking about
:49:17. > :49:20.was just six prisons out of 130 would get some flexibility to do
:49:21. > :49:24.other things but nothing to tackle the major overcrowding problems, you
:49:25. > :49:28.really shocking images that we saw on the news last night of some of
:49:29. > :49:33.the things going on in Wandsworth, an increase of about a third in riot
:49:34. > :49:39.attacks on staff, an increase of about a quarter in a tax on
:49:40. > :49:44.prisoners, suicide rates are up, and it is a consequence of having cut
:49:45. > :49:48.staff numbers by a third. You've got prisoners locked in their cells for
:49:49. > :49:53.23 hours at a time because there are not enough staff to supervise them.
:49:54. > :50:00.Unless this is sorted out, all of the reforms will just be a con.
:50:01. > :50:06.Conrad, you were a police officer, I think? Do you think we are being
:50:07. > :50:12.soft on crime? I think if you do the crime, you should do the time.
:50:13. > :50:16.APPLAUSE I don't believe that sending
:50:17. > :50:20.prisoners at weekends only and having the week off to work, I don't
:50:21. > :50:25.think it will work. They have enough cushy time in prison. Giving them
:50:26. > :50:35.iPads, I think, well... How much is an iPad? Paul Nuttall. The cynic in
:50:36. > :50:38.me thought that this announcement by Michael Gove was a publicity stunt
:50:39. > :50:43.but I am prepared to give him the benefit of the doubt because, if you
:50:44. > :50:48.look at the statistics, only one in four prisoners who are released go
:50:49. > :50:51.on and find employment, so if you keep them in employment, you will
:50:52. > :50:56.integrate them into back into society. When they do come out, 46%
:50:57. > :51:04.of them go on to commit crime within a year. Those on shorter sentences,
:51:05. > :51:07.that jumps up to 60%, so there is a correlation between how long you
:51:08. > :51:12.spend in prison and the likelihood of you coming out and reoffending. I
:51:13. > :51:16.want sentences to mean what you say. I don't want you to go down for six
:51:17. > :51:22.years and come out in three. If you go down for six, you should stay in
:51:23. > :51:27.the six years. In the end, we can have rehabilitation but I think
:51:28. > :51:31.deterrence are as important. Do you believe in the death penalty? Yes,
:51:32. > :51:37.like the majority of people in this country, I believed in the death
:51:38. > :51:41.penalties for people who go out and kill harmless children, and I make
:51:42. > :51:45.no apologies. One other point, the real issue we have got with prisons
:51:46. > :51:53.is that the budgets have been cut massively. In 2000, for everyone
:51:54. > :52:00.prison officer, there were three prisoners. Now, in 2015, there are
:52:01. > :52:04.six reserve officers -- six prisoners for every officer. My
:52:05. > :52:09.cousin is a prison officer and he tells me all of the time that they
:52:10. > :52:15.have lost control. Between now and 2020, there will be another 15% cut
:52:16. > :52:20.on the Ministry of Justice budget. We need to spend money on our
:52:21. > :52:26.prisons, we need people to come out educated, rehabilitated and then
:52:27. > :52:32.integrated back into society. The man in the striped T-shirt. I think
:52:33. > :52:36.that rehabilitation is really important, but where does the
:52:37. > :52:43.deterrent start? If these people are out in general society midweek, we
:52:44. > :52:47.are acting as the prison officers, almost, in the fact that we are the
:52:48. > :52:53.people in front of these prisoners. They should be behind bars if they
:52:54. > :52:58.have done something wrong for a certain amount of time, where proper
:52:59. > :53:05.rehabilitation and take effect. So it should be done inside rather than
:53:06. > :53:09.out. Paul Mason. I am in favour of enforcing the criminal justice
:53:10. > :53:11.system fairly. How many constituencies are being
:53:12. > :53:15.investigated at the moment for Conservative election fraud?
:53:16. > :53:21.Innocent until proven guilty, of course. It is 29. As a Conservative
:53:22. > :53:28.minister and Privy Council, you will be the first to say that, if anybody
:53:29. > :53:30.worked out to have conspired to link those constituencies together so
:53:31. > :53:35.that somebody knew that the Conservative Party was overspending
:53:36. > :53:40.at local level, that person should be prosecuted, shouldn't they? What
:53:41. > :53:46.does this have to do with the question? A lot of young
:53:47. > :53:48.working-class men get criminalised by poverty and living a terrible
:53:49. > :53:53.life that we should rehabilitate them, but we should be investigating
:53:54. > :53:58.the crimes of the rich and privileged with just the same amount
:53:59. > :54:05.of vigour. Starting with the people who keep their money in Panama.
:54:06. > :54:09.People are in prison for a reason. I go to school in Walsall and we can't
:54:10. > :54:13.even afford iPads. Working-class girls like me and my friends can't
:54:14. > :54:19.learn of iPads at school. Our school can't afford it. Why do prisoners
:54:20. > :54:30.deserve iPads but hard-working girls like me and Ellie don't? The purpose
:54:31. > :54:34.of this reform is a centrepiece of the Prime Minister's desire to give
:54:35. > :54:39.people life chances. What we are doing is investing money and totally
:54:40. > :54:42.reforming the prison service and the prisons themselves, the biggest
:54:43. > :54:47.reform since the Victorian age, to make them fit for purpose so we
:54:48. > :54:49.don't have the sort of numbers Paul quoted, about recidivism, people
:54:50. > :54:55.coming out of jail and committing crimes. We want to make sure people
:54:56. > :55:02.get a second chance. It isn't just that. Is she going to get an iPad?
:55:03. > :55:06.How am I supposed to learn at school without technology? We don't have
:55:07. > :55:12.the funding for computers at work. Hard-working pupils deserve that
:55:13. > :55:17.funding, not prisoners. I have to say, maybe your school... There has
:55:18. > :55:22.to be a quality in the system. A lot of schools now provide iPads for
:55:23. > :55:26.their children as they go through. I hope the education system can help
:55:27. > :55:31.people access iPads. If they can't get their own once, to have good
:55:32. > :55:35.access to shared ones. There is no question of all prisoners of iPads.
:55:36. > :55:38.Some of the elements have been highlighted as if the government is
:55:39. > :55:42.going to be soft on crime, we are not. We want to make sure people
:55:43. > :55:47.come out educated, they can get jobs and make a useful contribution and
:55:48. > :55:52.not go back to crime. We have to remember that not all crimes are
:55:53. > :55:56.violent crimes. You talk about these people being a risk to us. Not
:55:57. > :56:01.everyone is in prison is a risk to the population. And violent crimes,
:56:02. > :56:06.of course, should be treated inside. In terms of rehabilitation and
:56:07. > :56:10.allowing people to become a functioning part of society, it
:56:11. > :56:17.simply can't be done when they are being locked away for 23 hours per
:56:18. > :56:22.day in a cell. Are we being soft on crime? I don't think so. We are
:56:23. > :56:26.being very ineffective on crime, though. Let's look at what prison is
:56:27. > :56:30.for. Three things, to punish people who have done wrong, to make sure
:56:31. > :56:34.there is justice and the victim gets some reparation. Second, to protect
:56:35. > :56:43.society from people who will be endangered to it. Third, it's about
:56:44. > :56:47.rehabilitation, so that those people come out improved and able to
:56:48. > :56:52.function. Just about half of the 85,000 people who are currently in
:56:53. > :56:56.prison will reoffend within 12 months, so many of them are not
:56:57. > :57:01.violent crimes at all. What do we do to make sure we make our country
:57:02. > :57:08.safer? Revalidation is right and just, morally correct to give people
:57:09. > :57:15.a second chance. -- rehabilitation. We as a country will be safer as a
:57:16. > :57:20.result. You, sir, quickly. I am reserving prison officer. I am all
:57:21. > :57:25.for rehabilitation but the things you are asking for cannot be done in
:57:26. > :57:30.custody. They need to be done outside, before release. By the time
:57:31. > :57:37.people get into custody and they are on to the longer sentences, you just
:57:38. > :57:39.need staff. What did you think of the suggestions put forward by the
:57:40. > :57:46.government for people spending five days at home and spending two days
:57:47. > :57:50.in prison? It won't work because you are incentivising people not to come
:57:51. > :57:57.to Britain at weekends. It's a punishment system. One more. Isn't
:57:58. > :58:05.this just a publicity stunt? It is one of the few occupations that
:58:06. > :58:10.doesn't get filled in post. Isn't it politicians looking for the general
:58:11. > :58:14.public to do their job? She can't answer because our time is up. We'll
:58:15. > :58:21.have to try again later. I'm sorry. It really is. Our power has
:58:22. > :58:28.finished. Nick Clegg, we will be in Ipswich. -- next week, we will be in
:58:29. > :58:32.Ipswich. Ed Miliband will be back for the first time since he stopped
:58:33. > :58:36.being leader of the Labour Party. Caroline Lucas for the Greens, David
:58:37. > :58:42.Davis for the Conservatives, and Steve Hilton will be on the panel.
:58:43. > :58:48.You do look surprised. The 17 years, he was David Cameron's strategy
:58:49. > :58:51.adviser. We will be in Cardiff the week after that. An exciting
:58:52. > :58:55.programme in Ipswich and another in Cardiff. Go to the website if you
:58:56. > :59:01.would like to come. If you are listening on five live, don't go
:59:02. > :59:05.away. Here, my thanks to our panel, to all of you who came to Walsall to
:59:06. > :59:10.take part. Until next Thursday, good night.