0:00:02 > 0:00:03This is Question Time.
0:00:11 > 0:00:13Good evening and welcome, whether you're watching on TV,
0:00:13 > 0:00:17listening on Radio 5 Live, here in the audience.
0:00:17 > 0:00:18Welcome to our panel.
0:00:18 > 0:00:21Tonight, the former leader of the Labour Party, Ed Miliband,
0:00:21 > 0:00:23in his first appearance on Question Time
0:00:23 > 0:00:25since last year's election.
0:00:25 > 0:00:27The Conservative former Europe Minister
0:00:27 > 0:00:32and chairman of the party, campaigning for Brexit, David Davis.
0:00:32 > 0:00:36The Green Party's former and maybe future, leader,
0:00:36 > 0:00:38Caroline Lucas.
0:00:38 > 0:00:40David Cameron's close political ally for many years,
0:00:40 > 0:00:44maybe slightly less now that he's urging Brexit,
0:00:44 > 0:00:45Steve Hilton.
0:00:45 > 0:00:47And the crime writer with nine novels to her credit
0:00:47 > 0:00:50and a Guardian columnist to boot, Dreda Say Mitchell.
0:00:52 > 0:00:54APPLAUSE
0:01:05 > 0:01:06Good, thank you very much
0:01:06 > 0:01:08and just before we take our first question,
0:01:08 > 0:01:10remember, as ever, Facebook,
0:01:10 > 0:01:13Twitter, texting 83981...
0:01:13 > 0:01:16If you want to comment on anything that's said here -
0:01:16 > 0:01:20do that and everybody will get to hear your views.
0:01:20 > 0:01:22Now, if I can find the questions, which I have,
0:01:22 > 0:01:25our first question tonight is from Mary Bird, please.
0:01:25 > 0:01:27- Mary Bird.- Hello.
0:01:27 > 0:01:33In light of the EU migration figures published today,
0:01:33 > 0:01:38how on earth are our public services going to cope?
0:01:38 > 0:01:39Ed Miliband.
0:01:40 > 0:01:43Well, Mary, I think they can cope
0:01:43 > 0:01:46but I think it obviously means that there are stresses and strains.
0:01:46 > 0:01:49And this goes to the bigger question
0:01:49 > 0:01:51of whether we should be within the European Union,
0:01:51 > 0:01:54remain, or leave.
0:01:54 > 0:01:56I understand people have concerns about immigration
0:01:56 > 0:01:59but you have to look at the balance of the argument, here.
0:01:59 > 0:02:02And it seems to me the balance of the argument is this -
0:02:02 > 0:02:04we know from official figures
0:02:04 > 0:02:07that people who come here from the European Union contribute
0:02:07 > 0:02:10about £2.5 billion more
0:02:10 > 0:02:13in terms of taxes than they claim in benefits.
0:02:13 > 0:02:15We know we've got 100,000 people from the EU
0:02:15 > 0:02:18working in our public services, which you asked about.
0:02:18 > 0:02:21- Now, on the other side... - Excuse me.
0:02:21 > 0:02:23I'm talking about schools, hospitals,
0:02:23 > 0:02:25the transport system,
0:02:25 > 0:02:27that's what I am talking about.
0:02:27 > 0:02:29- Yeah, and there are... - They are heaving.
0:02:29 > 0:02:31And there are 250,000 people from the EU
0:02:31 > 0:02:33propping up our schools and our hospitals
0:02:33 > 0:02:35and our social care systems.
0:02:35 > 0:02:38APPLAUSE
0:02:38 > 0:02:44But...but, Mary, I hear it in my own constituency.
0:02:44 > 0:02:45I don't deny there are pressures,
0:02:45 > 0:02:48but I ask you and the audience to think about this.
0:02:48 > 0:02:52First of all, economically, we are better off in the European Union.
0:02:52 > 0:02:56The Institute for Fiscal Studies, a respected independent think-tank -
0:02:56 > 0:02:57not the Government,
0:02:57 > 0:02:59not the Governor of the Bank of England -
0:02:59 > 0:03:03said this week there would be a £20-£40 billion black hole
0:03:03 > 0:03:04in our public finances if we left.
0:03:04 > 0:03:07Now, the question for you and the audience is -
0:03:07 > 0:03:09and this is, I think, the answer -
0:03:09 > 0:03:12let's use the money we get from being in the European Union,
0:03:12 > 0:03:15the extra taxes, to relieve the pressures on public services
0:03:15 > 0:03:18in Ipswich and elsewhere, but for goodness' sake,
0:03:18 > 0:03:21let's not throw the baby out with the bathwater,
0:03:21 > 0:03:23leave the European Union, and make us worse off,
0:03:23 > 0:03:25because that's, I believe, what would happen.
0:03:25 > 0:03:28APPLAUSE
0:03:30 > 0:03:31On the Remain side, just briefly,
0:03:31 > 0:03:34are you embarrassed by the figures that came out,
0:03:34 > 0:03:36showing the second-highest on record this year?
0:03:36 > 0:03:39- No.- You're not embarrassed by it? - Embarrassed?
0:03:39 > 0:03:41You don't think it's difficult for the campaign, no?
0:03:41 > 0:03:43- No.- All right, fine...
0:03:43 > 0:03:46I think it is an important point, because I am the son of immigrants.
0:03:46 > 0:03:48My parents came here as refugees
0:03:48 > 0:03:50from the Nazis, from Europe,
0:03:50 > 0:03:53from Belgium - my dad in 1940,
0:03:53 > 0:03:57my mum, from Poland, after the Second World War.
0:03:57 > 0:03:58They were European migrants.
0:03:58 > 0:04:02They've made a contribution to this country. And, look...
0:04:02 > 0:04:05So I think immigration has benefits. I think people make contributions.
0:04:05 > 0:04:08We've got to use the extra income generated
0:04:08 > 0:04:11to relieve the pressures that people here and elsewhere face.
0:04:11 > 0:04:13You've said that. David Davis.
0:04:13 > 0:04:14Well, he should be worried.
0:04:14 > 0:04:18I mean, this country has been welcoming to migrants
0:04:18 > 0:04:20for decades, centuries,
0:04:20 > 0:04:23as, indeed, Ed indicates,
0:04:23 > 0:04:25but welcoming to them in numbers
0:04:25 > 0:04:27which we can cope with.
0:04:27 > 0:04:32And 300,000-odd net migration every year,
0:04:32 > 0:04:34a new city every year...
0:04:34 > 0:04:36The questioner is quite right, Mary is quite right,
0:04:36 > 0:04:41it overwhelms the ability of schools, hospitals, housing,
0:04:41 > 0:04:44which we cannot change very fast, is overwhelmed.
0:04:44 > 0:04:47Young people can't afford houses as a result.
0:04:47 > 0:04:49Ed says it makes more money.
0:04:49 > 0:04:53Well, I'm afraid these numbers don't stand up.
0:04:53 > 0:04:58Those numbers are based on the very real and proper calculation
0:04:58 > 0:05:00that most migrants come here to work,
0:05:00 > 0:05:03they don't come here to be dependent on benefits.
0:05:03 > 0:05:05So that calculation of how much benefit is claimed,
0:05:05 > 0:05:08how much tax is paid, on that basis, is right.
0:05:08 > 0:05:10But it does not take on board all the extra public services,
0:05:10 > 0:05:13it doesn't take on board all the extra transport,
0:05:13 > 0:05:14it doesn't take on board
0:05:14 > 0:05:17all the other pressures on society that it creates.
0:05:17 > 0:05:19That is not the fault of the migrant.
0:05:19 > 0:05:21If I were Romanian, I'd be here now.
0:05:21 > 0:05:24If I was a Greek, a young Greek, I'd be here now,
0:05:24 > 0:05:25cos this is where the jobs are.
0:05:25 > 0:05:27But it's the Government's responsibility
0:05:27 > 0:05:30and this is out of control - full stop.
0:05:30 > 0:05:32This is out of control.
0:05:32 > 0:05:37What the Government ought to do is to get this back in control
0:05:37 > 0:05:38for the interests of the country
0:05:38 > 0:05:41and, frankly, also for the interests of many of the migrants
0:05:41 > 0:05:45and the only way that can be done is by leaving the European Union.
0:05:45 > 0:05:47APPLAUSE
0:05:57 > 0:05:59Caroline Lucas.
0:05:59 > 0:06:02Well, in economic terms alone, if you leave the European Union,
0:06:02 > 0:06:06you are looking at a massive loss of economic wealth to this country,
0:06:06 > 0:06:07you're looking at a loss of jobs
0:06:07 > 0:06:09and we can argue how much that figure is,
0:06:09 > 0:06:11there are different estimates out there,
0:06:11 > 0:06:14but when you've got everybody from the OECD to the IMF
0:06:14 > 0:06:16to the Bank of England, all of them saying
0:06:16 > 0:06:19that there will be a net economic loss to Britain
0:06:19 > 0:06:20if we leave the single market,
0:06:20 > 0:06:23then I think that's something that should give us pause.
0:06:23 > 0:06:26But, you know, I don't want to sit here apologising for the fact
0:06:26 > 0:06:30that membership of the EU gives us free movement of people.
0:06:30 > 0:06:32I want to sit here and actually celebrate it
0:06:32 > 0:06:34and I appreciate that might be controversial...
0:06:34 > 0:06:37APPLAUSE
0:06:37 > 0:06:40But I think there is something rather amazing
0:06:40 > 0:06:44about having the choice, for those people that do have a choice,
0:06:44 > 0:06:47to be able to live and love and work and retire
0:06:47 > 0:06:48in 28 different member states.
0:06:48 > 0:06:52We know, of course, that many British people make the most of that
0:06:52 > 0:06:55by going to Spain and many other parts of the EU,
0:06:55 > 0:06:57just as people come to our country.
0:06:57 > 0:06:59I do accept that the costs and benefits
0:06:59 > 0:07:03are not terribly equally spread across the UK,
0:07:03 > 0:07:04which is why I agree with Ed
0:07:04 > 0:07:06that we need some kind of immigration dividend,
0:07:06 > 0:07:09or a solidarity fund, whatever we want to call it.
0:07:09 > 0:07:12But given that there is a net benefit that people are bringing,
0:07:12 > 0:07:16not just in terms of our communities and our culture,
0:07:16 > 0:07:17but a net economic benefit,
0:07:17 > 0:07:20then let us use that money to be able to invest in the services
0:07:20 > 0:07:22in areas that are under pressure.
0:07:22 > 0:07:23So you think, in reply to Mary,
0:07:23 > 0:07:26your view is that the public services can be funded properly?
0:07:26 > 0:07:29I think if the political will is there, of course they can.
0:07:29 > 0:07:32But we can also look at parts of the country where, right now...
0:07:32 > 0:07:36We have such centralisation in London and the south-east
0:07:36 > 0:07:39that that puts pressure, irrespective of immigration.
0:07:39 > 0:07:42If we had a more balanced regional policy across the country,
0:07:42 > 0:07:44I think we could have all the benefits
0:07:44 > 0:07:46and have less pressure as well.
0:07:46 > 0:07:49Let's hear from the audience, then I'll come back to our panel.
0:07:49 > 0:07:51APPLAUSE
0:07:51 > 0:07:55The woman there, in orange, or pink, is it? There - you, madam.
0:07:55 > 0:08:00Is it because the economic union is not working,
0:08:00 > 0:08:02the European Union is not working,
0:08:02 > 0:08:09that there are so many people that are out of work in Europe?
0:08:09 > 0:08:11It's a broken club,
0:08:11 > 0:08:14that so many people are actually coming to Britain.
0:08:14 > 0:08:18- You think the outfit isn't delivering?- Yeah.
0:08:18 > 0:08:19Let's hold on to that point.
0:08:19 > 0:08:21You in the blue shirt on the gangway.
0:08:21 > 0:08:23Hold on a second, we'll get a microphone to you.
0:08:23 > 0:08:27I don't think the debate about immigration in the EU
0:08:27 > 0:08:30should be about numbers or economic immigrants,
0:08:30 > 0:08:34if they benefit the UK or not - it should be about the choice,
0:08:34 > 0:08:38and if we have the choice to control our immigration policy.
0:08:38 > 0:08:40Even if we left the EU,
0:08:40 > 0:08:43we could then choose whether or not we had mass migration.
0:08:43 > 0:08:46If we elected a government
0:08:46 > 0:08:50with a policy of immigration of hundreds of thousands, fine.
0:08:50 > 0:08:51But at the minute, as a member of the EU,
0:08:51 > 0:08:53we don't have that choice.
0:08:53 > 0:08:55OK. Steve Hilton.
0:08:55 > 0:08:58Like Ed, I am very pro-immigration,
0:08:58 > 0:09:01and I suspect also because, like Ed,
0:09:01 > 0:09:03my parents were immigrants to this country.
0:09:03 > 0:09:06I owe everything I have, all my opportunities,
0:09:06 > 0:09:09to the fact that this country welcomed my parents.
0:09:09 > 0:09:12I am also an immigrant now from this country to America,
0:09:12 > 0:09:14so I am very pro-immigration.
0:09:14 > 0:09:16But precisely because of that,
0:09:16 > 0:09:19I think we should be completely open on immigration.
0:09:19 > 0:09:22Let me explain what I mean by that.
0:09:22 > 0:09:24It is clearly common sense
0:09:24 > 0:09:29that we can't have unlimited numbers of people coming to this country.
0:09:29 > 0:09:31We all agree there has to be a limit,
0:09:31 > 0:09:35there has to be a certain number beyond which it is not sustainable,
0:09:35 > 0:09:36as we have heard.
0:09:36 > 0:09:40So the question is, who comes within that limit?
0:09:40 > 0:09:42What we have right now, through being in the EU,
0:09:42 > 0:09:46is a situation where we have unlimited numbers of people
0:09:46 > 0:09:49coming from Europe without any say or control over it.
0:09:49 > 0:09:51What that means is that actually,
0:09:51 > 0:09:54we are shutting the doors to people from beyond Europe
0:09:54 > 0:09:58that could be fantastically valuable contributors
0:09:58 > 0:09:59to our economy and our society,
0:09:59 > 0:10:02people from China, or India,
0:10:02 > 0:10:05entrepreneurs and scientists from all around the world
0:10:05 > 0:10:06who are shut out because we have to take,
0:10:06 > 0:10:10as I've put it, unlimited numbers of Hungarian waiters.
0:10:10 > 0:10:13Now, I have got nothing against Hungarians,
0:10:13 > 0:10:14cos I am one.
0:10:14 > 0:10:19But the truth is, we should be able to decide who comes to our country.
0:10:19 > 0:10:21That should be a choice for us,
0:10:21 > 0:10:25and as long as we are in the EU, it is a choice we can't make.
0:10:25 > 0:10:29So you are saying the wrong kind of immigrants are coming?
0:10:29 > 0:10:32I think it is a fundamentally undemocratic situation
0:10:32 > 0:10:35where something as important as this is out of our control.
0:10:35 > 0:10:37APPLAUSE
0:10:42 > 0:10:44I am with you, Steve, completely...
0:10:44 > 0:10:46Hold on a second - OK. Dreda.
0:10:46 > 0:10:49I'm with you completely. You know, we're all here,
0:10:49 > 0:10:52it seems like we're all the children of migrants.
0:10:52 > 0:10:54But when my parents came here in the '60s,
0:10:54 > 0:10:56I would say they were quite unskilled.
0:10:56 > 0:10:59So are you saying my parents shouldn't have come here?
0:10:59 > 0:11:02Cos they weren't a doctor, they weren't a nurse.
0:11:02 > 0:11:05Both my parents left school before they were...
0:11:05 > 0:11:07My dad left school before he was 15.
0:11:07 > 0:11:12- Would you bar the door to my dad? - I think that we need to have...
0:11:12 > 0:11:14APPLAUSE
0:11:14 > 0:11:15It's a great question
0:11:15 > 0:11:17and I think the answer to the question
0:11:17 > 0:11:20is that we need to discuss it, we need to have a policy on it
0:11:20 > 0:11:23and we need to be able as a country to come to a view
0:11:23 > 0:11:25about the answer to that question.
0:11:25 > 0:11:27And it will always be the case, I hope,
0:11:27 > 0:11:30that this country welcomes people who need refuge
0:11:30 > 0:11:34from things that are going on around the world that are...
0:11:34 > 0:11:36But I also think...
0:11:36 > 0:11:39The question as well, is I think...
0:11:39 > 0:11:41I hear what people are saying,
0:11:41 > 0:11:44but I also think if you are talking about the pressure on services,
0:11:44 > 0:11:47you have to dig deeper and talk about those services.
0:11:47 > 0:11:48So, for example, with education -
0:11:48 > 0:11:50what we know is happening at the moment
0:11:50 > 0:11:53is we've got a massive shortage in terms of teachers.
0:11:53 > 0:11:56We've got teachers leaving the profession whole-scale.
0:11:56 > 0:11:58Every time I meet a former colleague -
0:11:58 > 0:12:01I used to teach in schools, for nearly 20 years -
0:12:01 > 0:12:02they have all left.
0:12:02 > 0:12:03So that is a big issue.
0:12:03 > 0:12:06Another issue is in terms of the NHS -
0:12:06 > 0:12:08why is it there have been huge cutbacks
0:12:08 > 0:12:11in terms of training for nurses?
0:12:11 > 0:12:14- APPLAUSE - We can't keep blaming migrants.
0:12:14 > 0:12:17There are lots of issues running parallel to each other
0:12:17 > 0:12:21and I agree with you, but we can't just have a policy about migration.
0:12:21 > 0:12:23If you are talking about public services,
0:12:23 > 0:12:25you've got to have a big, overarching policy
0:12:25 > 0:12:27that looks at all the implications.
0:12:27 > 0:12:29Dreda, what is your view on migration?
0:12:29 > 0:12:32Do you think, from the EU, it should be unlimited?
0:12:32 > 0:12:37I think... You know, cos my whole thing about voting for Leave
0:12:37 > 0:12:41is that I've got a real issue with the EU and democracy.
0:12:41 > 0:12:45I think it should be a democratically-elected government.
0:12:45 > 0:12:48We live in a democracy, and they should have the right,
0:12:48 > 0:12:50like with all other big policies,
0:12:50 > 0:12:53to choose what their migration policy is.
0:12:53 > 0:12:55I think it is wrong that somebody else chooses that.
0:12:55 > 0:12:57OK. Caroline?
0:12:57 > 0:12:59APPLAUSE
0:12:59 > 0:13:01Can you deal with that point,
0:13:01 > 0:13:03that it's wrong that somebody else decides?
0:13:03 > 0:13:07I'm saying the EU is made up of the Council of Ministers
0:13:07 > 0:13:11where we do have our minister there on behalf of the UK.
0:13:11 > 0:13:14We also have members of the European Parliament.
0:13:14 > 0:13:17The EU Commission, which is not... The EU Commission is not elected.
0:13:17 > 0:13:19The Commission is for civil servants.
0:13:19 > 0:13:22But the EU Commission, nothing seems to happen without them.
0:13:22 > 0:13:25- They have to kick-start it. - Can I just finish?
0:13:25 > 0:13:27..those meetings and seen what goes on...
0:13:27 > 0:13:29I used to be a member of the European Parliament for ten years
0:13:29 > 0:13:31and I have seen up close what goes on.
0:13:31 > 0:13:33I can tell you that essentially,
0:13:33 > 0:13:36there is more democracy, ironically, in the EU
0:13:36 > 0:13:37than there is here.
0:13:37 > 0:13:39At least your MEPs
0:13:39 > 0:13:42are elected through a system of proportional representation.
0:13:42 > 0:13:46We have a government here elected on 24% of the eligible vote.
0:13:46 > 0:13:51The idea that that is somehow democracy is a complete travesty.
0:13:51 > 0:13:54Steve, you have obviously been in, or sat in,
0:13:54 > 0:13:55the Council of Ministers, have you?
0:13:55 > 0:13:57- I've observed it.- Tell us about it.
0:13:57 > 0:13:59First of all, I absolutely agree with Caroline
0:13:59 > 0:14:02that there are serious problems we need to fix in our democracy.
0:14:02 > 0:14:04I completely agree with that.
0:14:04 > 0:14:06Could you have a word with David Cameron about it?
0:14:06 > 0:14:08Let him have his say, now. LAUGHTER
0:14:08 > 0:14:12I've had many words over the years on that topic, as well as others.
0:14:12 > 0:14:16The point is that in the EU, obviously,
0:14:16 > 0:14:20when the whole thing is run basically on a committee basis,
0:14:20 > 0:14:22where you have 28 countries, and probably more,
0:14:22 > 0:14:25everything is a negotiation
0:14:25 > 0:14:28and that means that everything has to be a compromise.
0:14:28 > 0:14:30Now, there is nothing wrong with compromise.
0:14:30 > 0:14:33Life is about compromise, government is about compromise.
0:14:33 > 0:14:37But the truth is it should be the case that the compromises
0:14:37 > 0:14:39are ones that we can get involved in,
0:14:39 > 0:14:42that the people affected by those compromises
0:14:42 > 0:14:44can have a say over what is the result.
0:14:44 > 0:14:47- That is impossible if we are in the EU.- OK.
0:14:47 > 0:14:49APPLAUSE The woman there...
0:14:51 > 0:14:52Yes?
0:14:53 > 0:14:56Returning to the original question,
0:14:56 > 0:15:00GP practices within Ipswich are having to close their lists
0:15:00 > 0:15:03because they are unable to take any more patients
0:15:03 > 0:15:08because they have so many deep problems.
0:15:08 > 0:15:10One of those problems,
0:15:10 > 0:15:12and a very serious part of those problems,
0:15:12 > 0:15:14are the number of EU migrants that are in Ipswich.
0:15:14 > 0:15:18It's a...
0:15:18 > 0:15:21They can't cope with the language difficulties,
0:15:21 > 0:15:24the numbers...it's just...
0:15:24 > 0:15:26The system is folding.
0:15:26 > 0:15:29You are talking of patients, not of nurses and doctors?
0:15:29 > 0:15:33Patients, the number of patients. They haven't...
0:15:33 > 0:15:35- They are overwhelmed by it.- Yeah.
0:15:35 > 0:15:38I want to hear from somebody who's pro-Remain
0:15:38 > 0:15:39on this point about immigration.
0:15:39 > 0:15:41Yes, all right, you.
0:15:41 > 0:15:44I worked in the NHS, I worked in Colchester,
0:15:44 > 0:15:46since I left school.
0:15:46 > 0:15:49Blaming immigration on the shortfalls of the NHS
0:15:49 > 0:15:51is not true.
0:15:51 > 0:15:55The NHS is struggling because of the Conservative Government cuts
0:15:55 > 0:15:57made to the NHS, not because of immigration.
0:15:57 > 0:15:59APPLAUSE
0:16:03 > 0:16:05So, David, it is the Conservatives' fault.
0:16:05 > 0:16:07It is always the Conservatives' fault, isn't it?
0:16:07 > 0:16:10APPLAUSE
0:16:12 > 0:16:14Look, we were talking about
0:16:14 > 0:16:16the pressures brought about by immigration
0:16:16 > 0:16:18and we were also talking about democracy.
0:16:18 > 0:16:20Let's start with getting a few facts straight.
0:16:20 > 0:16:22I was there for a few years.
0:16:22 > 0:16:25Caroline is wrong. The Commission IS the Government.
0:16:25 > 0:16:27The Government in any country
0:16:27 > 0:16:29is the one that initiates the legislation,
0:16:29 > 0:16:32starts the ball rolling, writes the Act of Parliament.
0:16:32 > 0:16:34It is the commissioners that do that.
0:16:34 > 0:16:36And how do we choose the commissioners?
0:16:36 > 0:16:39We choose people who their electorates have rejected.
0:16:39 > 0:16:42Jean-Claude Juncker was rejected.
0:16:42 > 0:16:43I appointed Neil Kinnock -
0:16:43 > 0:16:47he was another one who the electorate rejected!
0:16:47 > 0:16:50Let's be clear, this is NOT a democracy.
0:16:50 > 0:16:52Why did you appoint somebody who had been rejected?
0:16:52 > 0:16:55Why didn't you make a better choice, if you thought...?
0:16:55 > 0:16:57- It was the right choice. - Oh, it was the right choice?
0:16:57 > 0:17:00- Listen...- Hang on a moment! You can't say it's the right choice
0:17:00 > 0:17:02- and then say the thing doesn't work. - The only way...
0:17:02 > 0:17:04- STEVE:- The right undemocratic choice.
0:17:04 > 0:17:06You have not got any option - you can't elect a commissioner.
0:17:06 > 0:17:09You're not allowed to - the Government nominates them.
0:17:09 > 0:17:12It nominates - in those days - one from each party.
0:17:12 > 0:17:14The Labour Party nominated me
0:17:14 > 0:17:17and I said, "We can't block the Labour Party."
0:17:17 > 0:17:20Let's come back to the point - the point here is about democracy.
0:17:20 > 0:17:25Who knows best what our public services can deal with?
0:17:25 > 0:17:27Who knows best how many nurses we need?
0:17:27 > 0:17:30Who knows best how many houses we can build?
0:17:30 > 0:17:31Our government.
0:17:31 > 0:17:34Not some commissioner in Brussels. Our government.
0:17:34 > 0:17:35- CAROLINE:- This is a travesty.
0:17:35 > 0:17:38Which is why WE should control the number of immigrants,
0:17:38 > 0:17:41and where they come from and who they are.
0:17:41 > 0:17:43APPLAUSE
0:17:43 > 0:17:45Ed Miliband.
0:17:47 > 0:17:50I do say that the people for Leave in this argument, I fear,
0:17:50 > 0:17:52are selling an illusion.
0:17:52 > 0:17:54I just want to say to this audience,
0:17:54 > 0:17:58the problems we face as a country, not just migration -
0:17:58 > 0:18:03climate change, terrorism, tax avoidance, all of those issues -
0:18:03 > 0:18:04we can't deal with them on our own any more.
0:18:04 > 0:18:06We've got to...
0:18:06 > 0:18:09APPLAUSE AND SCATTERED BOOING
0:18:09 > 0:18:13- Let me...let me... - AUDIENCE MEMBERS SHOUT
0:18:13 > 0:18:15Let me explain what I mean by that.
0:18:15 > 0:18:19The truth is, these problems cross borders.
0:18:19 > 0:18:21Powerful corporations cross borders.
0:18:21 > 0:18:24Corporations, it's all about corporations.
0:18:24 > 0:18:27Here we go - it's always about big business, corporations.
0:18:27 > 0:18:30Are we actually saying, David, that we, as a country,
0:18:30 > 0:18:32the fifth-largest economy...?
0:18:32 > 0:18:33- Ed, actually.- Sorry! Ed...
0:18:33 > 0:18:37LAUGHTER AND APPLAUSE
0:18:37 > 0:18:42Ed, Ed - sorry, of course I know it is Ed, sorry!
0:18:42 > 0:18:44I interrupted your stride, sorry.
0:18:44 > 0:18:46- DAVID DAVIS: - I have the same problem...
0:18:46 > 0:18:48- ED:- My mum makes the same mistake.
0:18:48 > 0:18:52- LAUGHTER - We are the fifth-largest economy.
0:18:52 > 0:18:55Are we actually saying we cannot do this on our own,
0:18:55 > 0:18:58working in partnership with other people?
0:18:58 > 0:19:00APPLAUSE
0:19:04 > 0:19:07You said it exactly right, Dreda, at the end -
0:19:07 > 0:19:09working in partnership with other people.
0:19:09 > 0:19:12We're in a partnership with the United States.
0:19:12 > 0:19:14Are we in a union with them? No, we are not.
0:19:14 > 0:19:17Let me just.... Let's take a very concrete example, here.
0:19:17 > 0:19:20We have four weeks' paid holiday in this country.
0:19:20 > 0:19:22We have equal rights for men and women -
0:19:22 > 0:19:24not enough, but we've made progress on it.
0:19:24 > 0:19:27We have maternity leave. Those things didn't happen
0:19:27 > 0:19:30because of a Conservative Government or a Labour Government.
0:19:30 > 0:19:32They happened because across the European Union,
0:19:32 > 0:19:34you had countries joining together,
0:19:34 > 0:19:36saying, "We are not going to let companies
0:19:36 > 0:19:38"play one country off against another."
0:19:38 > 0:19:41It is the same on the environment.
0:19:41 > 0:19:44And actually, we were able to deliver those things.
0:19:44 > 0:19:46- But we also, we also... - All right...
0:19:46 > 0:19:50We also live at a time when we've got zero-hours contracts as well.
0:19:50 > 0:19:53Is that good? What are the EU doing about that?
0:19:53 > 0:19:55Dreda, hold on a second. I have got a lot of people
0:19:55 > 0:19:57in the audience who want to speak,
0:19:57 > 0:19:59and I want to hear from them, hold on a second.
0:19:59 > 0:20:01And Steve Hilton has got a comment...
0:20:01 > 0:20:06I've only been here since Monday and I'm already absolutely sick
0:20:06 > 0:20:08of hearing, from the Remain side,
0:20:08 > 0:20:11these silly scares and phoney figures
0:20:11 > 0:20:13and overstatements of what people are saying.
0:20:13 > 0:20:16APPLAUSE
0:20:16 > 0:20:19THEY TALK OVER EACH OTHER
0:20:19 > 0:20:21- That is the most...- Let me finish.
0:20:21 > 0:20:23You're coming from your side of the debate.
0:20:23 > 0:20:25Let me finish the point, please.
0:20:25 > 0:20:28- That is the richest criticism I could ever imagine.- But Ed...
0:20:28 > 0:20:30Your side of the debate.
0:20:30 > 0:20:31But Ed...
0:20:31 > 0:20:37To say what he just did, to present this as a choice between
0:20:37 > 0:20:41total isolation and cooperation in Europe
0:20:41 > 0:20:43is completely ridiculous.
0:20:43 > 0:20:46Of course it's true that we need to cooperate on things
0:20:46 > 0:20:49like the environment and terrorism and global issues,
0:20:49 > 0:20:52and of course it's true that we can do that outside the EU,
0:20:52 > 0:20:56as an independent country. This is a really serious debate.
0:20:56 > 0:20:59It's complicated and there are many sides to it,
0:20:59 > 0:21:02and I wish that the Remain side would stop simplifying it and
0:21:02 > 0:21:06treating people like they can't understand complicated arguments.
0:21:06 > 0:21:07All right.
0:21:07 > 0:21:12We've got... We've got more questions about Europe,
0:21:12 > 0:21:14and I'll come to them,
0:21:14 > 0:21:16but I'll just take one or two more members of the audience.
0:21:16 > 0:21:18You, there, first of all.
0:21:18 > 0:21:22The largest comment against, sort of, remaining within the EU
0:21:22 > 0:21:25seems to be all of this red tape, all of this democracy,
0:21:25 > 0:21:26that isn't happening.
0:21:26 > 0:21:29I just want to say, I'm not sure if I actually want to
0:21:29 > 0:21:32hand back more power to the Government
0:21:32 > 0:21:35that has made £12 million worth of cuts to welfare,
0:21:35 > 0:21:40that has seen child poverty rise by £500 million or 500,000.
0:21:40 > 0:21:42I just don't want to see that.
0:21:42 > 0:21:44It doesn't seem like, if they get all this power,
0:21:44 > 0:21:47- they'll be doing things that are for the people.- You think it's...
0:21:47 > 0:21:50- They need someone to answer to. - APPLAUSE
0:21:50 > 0:21:54Are you saying, in effect, you feel safer in the EU
0:21:54 > 0:21:55rather than outside?
0:21:55 > 0:21:59Well, like the non-discrimination and gender equality laws
0:21:59 > 0:22:00that were spoken about,
0:22:00 > 0:22:03how do we know that our government is going to protect those?
0:22:03 > 0:22:05And also, I don't trust them to do it for the people.
0:22:05 > 0:22:09You are absolutely right. You are absolutely right.
0:22:09 > 0:22:11Woman in orange, there, please.
0:22:11 > 0:22:12The woman in orange, there, yes.
0:22:12 > 0:22:17The whole nub of the EU referendum is not the economy,
0:22:17 > 0:22:19it's not migration.
0:22:19 > 0:22:22We've got to consider what it's truly about.
0:22:22 > 0:22:25What's at the heart of the referendum is -
0:22:25 > 0:22:27do we want to govern ourselves?
0:22:31 > 0:22:35I've got a question that I'll come to next, but let me...
0:22:35 > 0:22:37You in the checked shirt, there, sir.
0:22:37 > 0:22:41Caroline, wasn't your answer in your first response
0:22:41 > 0:22:43to do with disproportionality?
0:22:43 > 0:22:45So you talked about the south-east and London
0:22:45 > 0:22:48having a great strangle on its services.
0:22:48 > 0:22:50If you lift that argument up one level,
0:22:50 > 0:22:52aren't you arguing with yourself?
0:22:52 > 0:22:54Because we are part of Europe and there's a disproportionate
0:22:54 > 0:22:57number of people coming to this country.
0:22:57 > 0:23:00No, I think that-that people are going to many different countries
0:23:00 > 0:23:04of the EU and the point I'm making is about subsidiarity,
0:23:04 > 0:23:07it's about where power and democracy need to lie,
0:23:07 > 0:23:10and there are certain things that absolutely need to be done
0:23:10 > 0:23:13at EU level, in terms of tackling the environment,
0:23:13 > 0:23:16in terms of tackling the issues of common workers' rights,
0:23:16 > 0:23:17and that's why we need the EU.
0:23:17 > 0:23:20This idea that governing ourselves, that essentially we are...
0:23:20 > 0:23:22Do you not believe in democracy?
0:23:22 > 0:23:25Do you not believe in democracy?
0:23:25 > 0:23:28It's because I believe in democracy that I am supporting
0:23:28 > 0:23:31the EU where there are issues...
0:23:31 > 0:23:33that we cannot solve on our own.
0:23:33 > 0:23:35All right. All right.
0:23:35 > 0:23:38Let's end this section. Let's end this... Let's end this.
0:23:38 > 0:23:41Caroline, we've had 25 minutes on this.
0:23:41 > 0:23:43We've got other questions that I want to come to.
0:23:43 > 0:23:46We've had quite a lot of people from the Brexit side.
0:23:46 > 0:23:49Anybody from the Remain side who wants to comment? You do, there.
0:23:49 > 0:23:52The man, there. Yeah.
0:23:52 > 0:23:54- You're a Remainer, are you? - I am, yes.
0:23:54 > 0:23:56All right.
0:23:56 > 0:23:58I'd like to say that I believe Brexit have done a great job
0:23:58 > 0:24:03in actually pointing the finger, wagging it solely at the EU
0:24:03 > 0:24:05migration situation.
0:24:05 > 0:24:08333,000 was the net figure today,
0:24:08 > 0:24:11of which 150,000 were from outside the EU.
0:24:11 > 0:24:15So if the hospitals are overflowing, why did we let in 150,000?
0:24:15 > 0:24:17And the second point is -
0:24:17 > 0:24:20the big danger here is, if we pull out of the EU,
0:24:20 > 0:24:24there is nothing to stop illegal immigration numbers rising
0:24:24 > 0:24:27because there will be nothing to stop anyone in the EU
0:24:27 > 0:24:29just saying, "If you want to go to the UK,
0:24:29 > 0:24:30"just camp out in Calais,
0:24:30 > 0:24:33"camp out in Amsterdam, and just come across to Clacton
0:24:33 > 0:24:34"any time you like."
0:24:34 > 0:24:38OK. Thank you. Another point from somebody who's a Remainer.
0:24:38 > 0:24:40You're a Remainer, sir?
0:24:40 > 0:24:42You're a Remainer, the woman there, on the end? Yes.
0:24:42 > 0:24:45Just coming back to the original question about...
0:24:45 > 0:24:47- about services...- Good idea.
0:24:47 > 0:24:50I completely agree with Ed that migrants prop up our services.
0:24:50 > 0:24:52I recently very badly injured my shoulder.
0:24:52 > 0:24:55About 80% of the medical professionals I have dealt with
0:24:55 > 0:24:57have been not from this country.
0:24:57 > 0:24:58If those people had not been in the NHS,
0:24:58 > 0:25:01I would have had to have waited a lot longer to receive
0:25:01 > 0:25:02the treatment that I've had,
0:25:02 > 0:25:05so they do prop up our services and they make a massive contribution,
0:25:05 > 0:25:07and we will miss out on that if we leave.
0:25:07 > 0:25:10Thank you. Right, we're going to... APPLAUSE
0:25:13 > 0:25:18Before we take the next question, let me just explain Question Time's
0:25:18 > 0:25:21progress in the next two or three weeks.
0:25:21 > 0:25:24We're going to be in Cardiff next week,
0:25:24 > 0:25:26we're going to be in Folkestone the week after that,
0:25:26 > 0:25:28but in the final week before the vote,
0:25:28 > 0:25:32we've actually got a special series of three programmes -
0:25:32 > 0:25:35Nottingham, York and Milton Keynes.
0:25:35 > 0:25:38In Nottingham, Michael Gove is going to be facing
0:25:38 > 0:25:41a Question Time audience.
0:25:41 > 0:25:44CHEERING
0:25:44 > 0:25:45Can't get through these things.
0:25:45 > 0:25:47Michael Gove is going to be facing
0:25:47 > 0:25:49a Question Time audience on his own.
0:25:49 > 0:25:51LAUGHTER
0:25:51 > 0:25:54In Milton Keynes, David Cameron is going to be facing
0:25:54 > 0:25:57a Question Time audience on his own.
0:25:58 > 0:26:01And...in whatever's left - York -
0:26:01 > 0:26:03we're going to have a normal panel.
0:26:03 > 0:26:06Well, I say normal panel, we're going to have a big panel...
0:26:06 > 0:26:07with the audience.
0:26:07 > 0:26:11So there's Cardiff, Folkestone, Nottingham, York and Milton Keynes.
0:26:11 > 0:26:14I'll give the numbers at the end, but they're on the screen now,
0:26:14 > 0:26:15if you want to make a note,
0:26:15 > 0:26:18if you'd like to come to any of those...programmes.
0:26:18 > 0:26:21Right, let's go on...
0:26:21 > 0:26:23though not necessarily very far.
0:26:23 > 0:26:26Claudette Jones, please. Claudette.
0:26:26 > 0:26:31Is it worth another two years of austerity to leave the EU?
0:26:31 > 0:26:32Is it worth another two...?
0:26:32 > 0:26:35This was the claim that there was going to be another two
0:26:35 > 0:26:37years of austerity by the IFS, I think.
0:26:37 > 0:26:39Is your view it is worth it or not worth it?
0:26:39 > 0:26:42I'm currently undecided...
0:26:42 > 0:26:45because there's so many forecasts that have come out
0:26:45 > 0:26:50and it's difficult to know whose to believe,
0:26:50 > 0:26:52especially when forecasts have to be based on a certain
0:26:52 > 0:26:55amount of assumption and...
0:26:55 > 0:26:58Because we don't know what Europe is going to decide,
0:26:58 > 0:27:00how they're going to behave towards us.
0:27:00 > 0:27:04If we do leave, it's quite difficult to...
0:27:04 > 0:27:05To know...
0:27:05 > 0:27:07All right, let's have a try with our panel.
0:27:07 > 0:27:09David Davis, the IFS, as you know,
0:27:09 > 0:27:12an organisation that Michael Gove said
0:27:12 > 0:27:15- he had the greatest respect for... - Not any more.
0:27:15 > 0:27:18..said there'd be an additional year or two of austerity.
0:27:18 > 0:27:20Well, they're just wrong.
0:27:20 > 0:27:22They didn't do any work of their own,
0:27:22 > 0:27:26what they did was look at all the other surveys that had taken place,
0:27:26 > 0:27:27and I'm afraid the establishment,
0:27:27 > 0:27:29the international establishment in particular,
0:27:29 > 0:27:31is caught in a sort of group thing.
0:27:31 > 0:27:34These are the people, remember, who were all in favour of the euro,
0:27:34 > 0:27:37the IMF and the Treasury and all that.
0:27:37 > 0:27:40They were... They never saw the 2008 financial crisis coming.
0:27:40 > 0:27:42In fact, they helped cause it.
0:27:42 > 0:27:47The IMF, in particular, didn't even handle the Greek crisis very well.
0:27:47 > 0:27:50These are people who are holding themselves up as authorities.
0:27:50 > 0:27:53The Treasury tried to stop us going into the euro.
0:27:53 > 0:27:54Er...eventually.
0:27:54 > 0:27:57They made the conditions that stopped Brown going in.
0:27:57 > 0:27:59- No, no, wait a minute. - And that stopped Blair going in.
0:27:59 > 0:28:01Yet again, I was there and you weren't.
0:28:01 > 0:28:03- AUDIENCE:- Ooh!
0:28:03 > 0:28:05Ooh!
0:28:05 > 0:28:07Ooh! I read the papers.
0:28:07 > 0:28:08You read...
0:28:08 > 0:28:12If you challenge me, let me just say my understanding of the story.
0:28:12 > 0:28:14- I was there, actually. - And you were there.
0:28:14 > 0:28:16There was a feeling that Tony Blair wanted to go into the euro,
0:28:16 > 0:28:19that Gordon Brown didn't. It's true, isn't it?
0:28:19 > 0:28:20More or less true, yes.
0:28:20 > 0:28:23More or less true. And the Treasury came up with the conditions.
0:28:23 > 0:28:26The opt-out in the first place was created by John Major's government
0:28:26 > 0:28:27many years before -
0:28:27 > 0:28:30you wouldn't have had the choice had it not been for them -
0:28:30 > 0:28:32and the reason the opt-out was created was because
0:28:32 > 0:28:36of the mistake made by the Treasury on the ERM. Remember the ERM crisis?
0:28:36 > 0:28:39That's what led to that. That was another mistake these people made.
0:28:39 > 0:28:42But you say the Treasury wanted us to go into the euro.
0:28:42 > 0:28:44- No, you said that.- No, I didn't say that. You said that.
0:28:44 > 0:28:46- I said these people wanted it. - Including the Treasury.
0:28:46 > 0:28:48Well, let's leave this one.
0:28:48 > 0:28:50- Call it a draw. - No, we won't call it a draw.
0:28:50 > 0:28:53- LAUGHTER - I haven't finished yet.
0:28:53 > 0:28:58The simple truth here is that the assumption being made
0:28:58 > 0:29:02behind all these gloomy, frightening stories
0:29:02 > 0:29:04is that one - we're going to lose lots of trade
0:29:04 > 0:29:06with the European Union.
0:29:06 > 0:29:10And two - we're not going to do any trade, or any more trade,
0:29:10 > 0:29:11outside in the global world.
0:29:11 > 0:29:15Firstly, of course we're going to get lots of scare stories
0:29:15 > 0:29:16right up to the day of Brexit.
0:29:16 > 0:29:19Go out in the street, look at the cars.
0:29:19 > 0:29:21Count the cars. How many Audis? How many BMWs?
0:29:21 > 0:29:23How many Mercedes? How many Volkswagens?
0:29:23 > 0:29:28Germany needs us - we're its biggest market.
0:29:28 > 0:29:30France needs us for wine and cheese.
0:29:30 > 0:29:33The deal will be done in the next two years - that's the first thing.
0:29:33 > 0:29:36Second thing, in terms of global trade,
0:29:36 > 0:29:39the worst operator in terms of creating free trade areas
0:29:39 > 0:29:41in the world is the European Union.
0:29:41 > 0:29:43It hasn't got a deal with the United States yet,
0:29:43 > 0:29:46it hasn't got a deal with China, it hasn't got a deal with India.
0:29:46 > 0:29:49It tried for nearly ten years to get a deal with India.
0:29:49 > 0:29:51It took nine years to get a deal with Canada.
0:29:51 > 0:29:53Everybody else can do this in months or one or two years.
0:29:53 > 0:29:57Small countries can do it. Switzerland can do it.
0:29:57 > 0:29:59South Korea can do it.
0:29:59 > 0:30:05So the argument that we are going to suffer is a scare story
0:30:05 > 0:30:06based on a falsehood.
0:30:06 > 0:30:10- So, to come back to your point... - APPLAUSE
0:30:17 > 0:30:20A man called Stuart Rose,
0:30:20 > 0:30:22who is the business leader of the Remain campaign,
0:30:22 > 0:30:25was interviewed in front of a select committee...
0:30:25 > 0:30:28One of the House Of Commons selects committees,
0:30:28 > 0:30:30and one of the things he admitted was that
0:30:30 > 0:30:33nothing would change very much at all for the first
0:30:33 > 0:30:35couple of years anyway.
0:30:35 > 0:30:37Secondly, he admitted that, actually,
0:30:37 > 0:30:40wages would go up if we left the European Union.
0:30:40 > 0:30:45Now those two things, to me, do not argue for a great recession
0:30:45 > 0:30:48or a great penalty we have to face if we leave the Union.
0:30:48 > 0:30:52And I come back to the point, we are leaving, we should leave,
0:30:52 > 0:30:55because of recovery, control of our own affairs,
0:30:55 > 0:30:57and we will run them better than they do.
0:30:57 > 0:30:59That does not include a recession.
0:30:59 > 0:31:03Ed Miliband, the... APPLAUSE
0:31:06 > 0:31:09The Chancellor, this week, said that Brexit
0:31:09 > 0:31:12would cost as many as 820,000 jobs
0:31:12 > 0:31:15and the Treasury said that, by 2013,
0:31:15 > 0:31:18Britain would be worse off by over £4,000 a year per household.
0:31:18 > 0:31:20You've heard what David Davis said.
0:31:20 > 0:31:22Do you support those contentions?
0:31:22 > 0:31:23Do you believe them?
0:31:23 > 0:31:26Yeah, I mean, they're in the broad range of conjectures
0:31:26 > 0:31:28- and forecasts made... - What does a "broad range" mean?
0:31:28 > 0:31:31- You mean it may be true, it may not be true?- Well, no...
0:31:31 > 0:31:34Every respected independent forecaster has said,
0:31:34 > 0:31:37"We're going to be worse off economically,
0:31:37 > 0:31:39"worse off for trade, worse off for investment."
0:31:39 > 0:31:42I just want to say something about the Institute for Fiscal Studies,
0:31:42 > 0:31:43who came out with the report this week,
0:31:43 > 0:31:45they have criticised Labour governments,
0:31:45 > 0:31:47they have criticised Conservative governments.
0:31:47 > 0:31:49Always, after a budget, they say,
0:31:49 > 0:31:51"The Chancellor got this wrong, got that wrong."
0:31:51 > 0:31:54The idea that they're part of a vast conspiracy on the Remain side
0:31:54 > 0:31:56is frankly laughable, David.
0:31:56 > 0:31:58This is an independent body that is saying,
0:31:58 > 0:31:59"We are going to be worse off."
0:31:59 > 0:32:02I also want to go to Claudette's question.
0:32:02 > 0:32:05Claudette said, "Is two years' austerity, which the
0:32:05 > 0:32:06"IFS said would happen, worth it?"
0:32:06 > 0:32:09Well, my argument is it isn't worth it.
0:32:09 > 0:32:12And let me just say one thing about why I think it's not worth it,
0:32:12 > 0:32:13it's about young people.
0:32:13 > 0:32:16All around the world, young people are kicking against the system.
0:32:16 > 0:32:20So you might expect in this referendum, the forecast,
0:32:20 > 0:32:22the polls to be saying, that young people will be
0:32:22 > 0:32:24voting for out, they are voting for in.
0:32:24 > 0:32:27I think we should think about the wisdom of young people in this.
0:32:27 > 0:32:30Why is that? Because young people like the freedom to travel.
0:32:30 > 0:32:32They recognise the world is getting closer together,
0:32:32 > 0:32:35they recognise that we need to work with others
0:32:35 > 0:32:36to tackle the challenges.
0:32:36 > 0:32:38Which young people are you talking about?
0:32:38 > 0:32:41This is my problem sometimes.
0:32:41 > 0:32:43Sometimes we use the term "young people",
0:32:43 > 0:32:47we're invariably talking about young people who were students,
0:32:47 > 0:32:49who were part of the professional class.
0:32:49 > 0:32:51No, we're not talking about that.
0:32:51 > 0:32:54- I don't think...- Let me tell you... - No, Dave...Ed.
0:32:54 > 0:32:56- Sorry!- She's done it again.
0:32:58 > 0:33:03- I'm sorry - Ed. - Just go with "you there".
0:33:03 > 0:33:07That would be sort of easier. They'll edit that bit out, anyway.
0:33:09 > 0:33:11We never edit this programme. You're on guard.
0:33:11 > 0:33:13I want to come to you in a moment
0:33:13 > 0:33:15because you keep interfering, interrupting.
0:33:15 > 0:33:17- Yes, I'll come to you. - I was interrupted, actually.
0:33:17 > 0:33:21No, I was talking to the man with the medals on. Don't be rude.
0:33:21 > 0:33:23I just think there's a whole thing about...
0:33:23 > 0:33:26- My basic point about young people... - No, I'm still talking, Ed.
0:33:26 > 0:33:29..is about working-class people.
0:33:29 > 0:33:32I don't know, I'm thinking about the working-class people in my family.
0:33:32 > 0:33:36They're not talking about, "I can't wait to travel to go off to Greece
0:33:36 > 0:33:39"or Milan or wherever, Rotterdam, to set up some business."
0:33:39 > 0:33:42What they want, what preoccupies them,
0:33:42 > 0:33:43is ,"Am I going to have a steady job?"
0:33:43 > 0:33:45"Am I going to have a roof over my head?"
0:33:45 > 0:33:49- Yeah.- "Am I going to have somewhere where I come home for my family?"
0:33:49 > 0:33:52"Am I going to have time to chill out and relax?"
0:33:52 > 0:33:56So can we stop using this general term "young people",
0:33:56 > 0:34:00and using a very stereotypical image of young people?
0:34:00 > 0:34:04I'm making a very specific point. I've learnt not to trust polls.
0:34:04 > 0:34:08But I can say that if you look at the broad range of the polls,
0:34:08 > 0:34:11by three or four to one, young people,
0:34:11 > 0:34:14and that's very large margins, are saying we should stay in.
0:34:14 > 0:34:17Now, that's because they can't imagine a world where
0:34:17 > 0:34:21we can't have visa-free travel across the 28 countries, or where...
0:34:21 > 0:34:23Well, we didn't have it before, actually.
0:34:23 > 0:34:26- We didn't have it before. - We did.
0:34:26 > 0:34:30- The truth is that I think... - Let's hear your point.
0:34:30 > 0:34:32Before the EU.
0:34:32 > 0:34:35Before Poland and the East European countries joined the EU,
0:34:35 > 0:34:36you could travel without a visa.
0:34:36 > 0:34:40- Not to Eastern Europe.- You could travel to the States without a visa.
0:34:40 > 0:34:43You can travel to Japan, Dubai, you don't need a visa.
0:34:43 > 0:34:45Not to Eastern Europe, you couldn't.
0:34:45 > 0:34:48But not to the 28 countries of the European Union.
0:34:48 > 0:34:50You never needed a visa for Italy.
0:34:50 > 0:34:53No, but 28 countries of the European Union...
0:34:53 > 0:34:56I want to go to you, sir, because you are disagreeing,
0:34:56 > 0:34:58I noticed you, with the woman on your right about this.
0:34:58 > 0:35:00And the question was - is it worth
0:35:00 > 0:35:02another two years of austerity to leave the EU?
0:35:02 > 0:35:03And you said, "Yes, it is."
0:35:03 > 0:35:06- You think it is worth it? - Yes, it is.- OK.
0:35:08 > 0:35:12So, you are not moved by the economic argument?
0:35:12 > 0:35:15Well, may I say, David, as an ex-serviceman
0:35:15 > 0:35:19in her Majesty's Armed Forces, I am a veteran, as you can see,
0:35:19 > 0:35:24I served my Queen and country and I'm actually living proof.
0:35:24 > 0:35:29I will be voting to leave the EU, along with a lot of servicemen
0:35:29 > 0:35:30and ex-servicemen
0:35:30 > 0:35:35because I am living proof that being part of this EU does not work
0:35:35 > 0:35:39for people that are not in receipt of senior citizen pensions.
0:35:39 > 0:35:43If you cannot... I lived in Spain since approximately 2000.
0:35:43 > 0:35:48I was forced back to my country and I have it on a digi-recording
0:35:48 > 0:35:51from a top Social Security politician.
0:35:51 > 0:35:54"Malcolm, you are English, go back to England,
0:35:54 > 0:35:58"we cannot afford to keep you and help you any more."
0:35:58 > 0:36:01I had to leave my home behind and my wife-to-be.
0:36:01 > 0:36:03I can't bring her back to this country with me
0:36:03 > 0:36:05because she comes from Ukraine
0:36:05 > 0:36:08and there's a lot of paperwork and money needed to do that.
0:36:08 > 0:36:11So you're saying to hell with the EU?
0:36:11 > 0:36:14When I went into the medical centre for my morphine,
0:36:14 > 0:36:19there was a red cross put on the back of this Spanish card
0:36:19 > 0:36:23and said, "It's not valued any more, you'll have to pay privately
0:36:23 > 0:36:25"because you are not of pensionable age."
0:36:25 > 0:36:28And I, among a lot of former military people
0:36:28 > 0:36:32and serving military people, will be the voting to go out.
0:36:32 > 0:36:33Caroline Lucas.
0:36:36 > 0:36:39- I want to come back to Jean's point about...- Do you recognise that?
0:36:39 > 0:36:42Hang on, we've heard the story.
0:36:42 > 0:36:44A load of rubbish. I am living proof.
0:36:44 > 0:36:48They do not treat us as European people, we are not equals.
0:36:48 > 0:36:51Caroline Lucas, do you come across that kind of story?
0:36:51 > 0:36:53I genuinely haven't come across that kind of story.
0:36:53 > 0:36:54I'm very sorry to hear it,
0:36:54 > 0:36:57but I don't know that leaving the EU would make it any better.
0:36:57 > 0:36:59I want to come to the point Dreda made,
0:36:59 > 0:37:00because it's an important one,
0:37:00 > 0:37:03when she said that the young people she knows are most concerned about
0:37:03 > 0:37:05whether they'll have a secure job,
0:37:05 > 0:37:07whether they have food on the table and so on.
0:37:07 > 0:37:09It's exactly for those reasons I think we need
0:37:09 > 0:37:11to stay inside the EU because that's how you get,
0:37:11 > 0:37:14for example, basic workers' rights guaranteed.
0:37:14 > 0:37:16Not just in the UK, but right across the EU,
0:37:16 > 0:37:18so you don't have big corporations...
0:37:18 > 0:37:20- Let me finish. - Of course, OK.
0:37:20 > 0:37:22They don't get corporations trying to play off
0:37:22 > 0:37:24one country against the other and bring down standards.
0:37:24 > 0:37:27If you have your friends who are perhaps agency workers,
0:37:27 > 0:37:28then it's because of the EU
0:37:28 > 0:37:31that you've got common protection for agency workers.
0:37:31 > 0:37:34If they were pregnant, they're going to have better results
0:37:34 > 0:37:37as a result of the EU in terms of protections for them.
0:37:37 > 0:37:40So it seems to me that the EU has done a huge amount
0:37:40 > 0:37:44to make sure that working people are going to be better protected.
0:37:44 > 0:37:48Don't forget that Boris Johnson wants to scrap the Social Chapter.
0:37:48 > 0:37:51He wants to scrap all of those protections.
0:37:51 > 0:37:54He has said... Boris Johnson has absolutely said...
0:37:54 > 0:37:57He wants he wants to get rid of it.
0:37:57 > 0:38:00Yes, I will come to you
0:38:00 > 0:38:05but Steve Hilton, the Prime Minister says family holidays will rise
0:38:05 > 0:38:08by £230, you have heard the other figures.
0:38:08 > 0:38:11- Do you think they are all rubbish? - Yes, basically.
0:38:11 > 0:38:13- I think... - You're a bit slow on that one.
0:38:13 > 0:38:15You don't have to speak for him!
0:38:15 > 0:38:20I have said already that I think I'm sick...
0:38:20 > 0:38:23I think we are all sick of these phoney figures.
0:38:23 > 0:38:24I want to come back to the question
0:38:24 > 0:38:27because you used a phrase which is at the heart of this,
0:38:27 > 0:38:29this discussion about what's going to happen.
0:38:29 > 0:38:30The phrasing you used was,
0:38:30 > 0:38:33"You hear all this stuff and it's difficult to know."
0:38:33 > 0:38:34Those were your words.
0:38:34 > 0:38:37That's right, and I'd go a bit further. It's impossible to know.
0:38:37 > 0:38:39It is literally impossible to know
0:38:39 > 0:38:42exactly what's going to happen in the future.
0:38:42 > 0:38:44Now, I'm very clearly for Leave.
0:38:44 > 0:38:46But I would be the first to acknowledge
0:38:46 > 0:38:48that there are risks from leaving.
0:38:48 > 0:38:52But please could the other side of the argument also acknowledge
0:38:52 > 0:38:54that there are also risks from staying?
0:38:54 > 0:38:57Because the EU right now, for example,
0:38:57 > 0:39:00is one of the worst-performing economic areas in the world.
0:39:00 > 0:39:03It's basically a sinking ship, economically.
0:39:03 > 0:39:06There is a risk to us from being associated with that.
0:39:06 > 0:39:09The truth is, the future is a risk.
0:39:09 > 0:39:11We don't know what's going to happen in the future.
0:39:11 > 0:39:13And not just the next few years,
0:39:13 > 0:39:16but the next 10, 20, 30, 40, 50 years.
0:39:16 > 0:39:18We have no idea what's going to happen.
0:39:18 > 0:39:22So the real question, given it's difficult and impossible to know,
0:39:22 > 0:39:25is what kind of arrangements for governing ourselves
0:39:25 > 0:39:30put us in the best possible position to cope with these future risks?
0:39:30 > 0:39:33And, for me, the answer to that question is
0:39:33 > 0:39:36a set of arrangements for running the country that allow us
0:39:36 > 0:39:41to move quickly to address things as they happen and to have control
0:39:41 > 0:39:45over the things that we want to do in our country and not have to
0:39:45 > 0:39:49move at the pace of a committee of 20-odd other countries
0:39:49 > 0:39:52and negotiate everything, so that we can respond
0:39:52 > 0:39:56to an uncertain future in the decades ahead.
0:39:56 > 0:39:58And that's why I think we should leave.
0:39:58 > 0:40:00APPLAUSE
0:40:04 > 0:40:07Has he won you over with that one, or not?
0:40:07 > 0:40:11I think we've got a lot more information about the risks
0:40:11 > 0:40:13that we would face if we stayed in
0:40:13 > 0:40:16than those that we would face if we left.
0:40:16 > 0:40:20- It feels like an enormous unknown. And, so...- OK.
0:40:20 > 0:40:23Let's hear from some more members of the audience. You, sir.
0:40:23 > 0:40:25Hopefully I can weigh in, because as a young person
0:40:25 > 0:40:29who's in my final years of A-levels, hoping to go to university,
0:40:29 > 0:40:32I think when you hear Remain politicians
0:40:32 > 0:40:35saying "the young people", they don't really understand.
0:40:35 > 0:40:38I'm from Felixstowe, which is a port town,
0:40:38 > 0:40:41and we can see the direct effects of all this mass immigration.
0:40:41 > 0:40:44My town doesn't look like what it used to
0:40:44 > 0:40:47and I think one thing that you seem to be forgetting is
0:40:47 > 0:40:50we have the Commonwealth, which is now a bigger trading block
0:40:50 > 0:40:54than the European Union and, as the man said over here,
0:40:54 > 0:40:57most of the countries there are loyal to our Queen.
0:40:57 > 0:40:59They have the same culture as we do, the same principles.
0:40:59 > 0:41:02I'm someone whose step-grandfather is from the Caribbean
0:41:02 > 0:41:03who came over here to work.
0:41:03 > 0:41:06I had the pleasure to go and visit the country of St Vincent.
0:41:06 > 0:41:10I can tell you that they understand how we act as a nation
0:41:10 > 0:41:13and we should feel fine about leaving the European Union
0:41:13 > 0:41:15- because we have... - And favouring the Commonwealth?
0:41:15 > 0:41:18Yes, because the Commonwealth is there to look after this.
0:41:18 > 0:41:20Briefly, Ed Miliband. Just answer that point.
0:41:20 > 0:41:24I think the interesting thing is that actually, other countries
0:41:24 > 0:41:28want us to be in the European Union because liaising with us
0:41:28 > 0:41:31and trading with us, they then get a 500 million person market.
0:41:31 > 0:41:34I don't think it's a choice between being involved with the Commonwealth
0:41:34 > 0:41:36or being involved with the European Union, we should do both,
0:41:36 > 0:41:39just like we should reach out to China and be in the European Union.
0:41:39 > 0:41:42But lots of these other countries think one of the reasons they
0:41:42 > 0:41:45can trade with us is because we're in the EU, not outside.
0:41:45 > 0:41:47OK, you, sir, at the back there.
0:41:47 > 0:41:51I feel that David Davis, like all Brexiters,
0:41:51 > 0:41:54is wilfully distorting the economic picture.
0:41:54 > 0:41:58Of course we'll be able to trade with countries in the EU,
0:41:58 > 0:42:00but we'll have to pay tariffs.
0:42:00 > 0:42:02All products will be more expensive for us.
0:42:02 > 0:42:06Also, our companies, our businesses which trade in Europe,
0:42:06 > 0:42:10like financial services, will have huge restrictions put on them
0:42:10 > 0:42:13which will cause huge trouble to our underlying economy,
0:42:13 > 0:42:19which will make all our public services less able to cope
0:42:19 > 0:42:21with the problems that they already have.
0:42:21 > 0:42:24And this is all for this, sort of...
0:42:25 > 0:42:31..what...unknown benefit
0:42:31 > 0:42:34of having...of us being in control.
0:42:34 > 0:42:39And they say...he says he wants to be in control of immigration,
0:42:39 > 0:42:42but there's no saying what the government of the time
0:42:42 > 0:42:44will do about immigration.
0:42:44 > 0:42:46- OK.- We could be in or out of Europe,
0:42:46 > 0:42:49and we could just have just as much immigration.
0:42:49 > 0:42:51So we should stay in and retain the benefits.
0:42:51 > 0:42:52David Davis.
0:42:59 > 0:43:00The first thing to understand
0:43:00 > 0:43:03is there is no free market in services in the European Union.
0:43:03 > 0:43:06They still haven't got one, after all these years.
0:43:06 > 0:43:09- That is absolute rubbish. - That's the first thing to say.
0:43:09 > 0:43:13Hang on, he said it was rubbish. Briefly, why was it rubbish?
0:43:13 > 0:43:17The government, both Labour and Conservative governments,
0:43:17 > 0:43:25spent a long time ensuring that the EU did not push down the City.
0:43:25 > 0:43:30They did not impose EU-wide extra taxations on financial services
0:43:30 > 0:43:35which would have benefited other financial centres in the EU
0:43:35 > 0:43:37to the detriment of the City.
0:43:37 > 0:43:42There are ways in which being out of the EU will hugely affect
0:43:42 > 0:43:47the financial services industry, to a degree which is far greater
0:43:47 > 0:43:52than all the so-called benefits on the other side.
0:43:52 > 0:43:55There is no free market in services.
0:43:55 > 0:43:58And that negotiation you talk about,
0:43:58 > 0:44:00you can pick lots of them if you like,
0:44:00 > 0:44:02when they had to bail out Greece,
0:44:02 > 0:44:04we were supposedly not supposed to be involved in it.
0:44:04 > 0:44:07We ended up paying out £840 million, £850 million,
0:44:07 > 0:44:10as a result of being inside the system.
0:44:10 > 0:44:12More to the point, and I think more importantly,
0:44:12 > 0:44:16is this whole question of whether or not we continue to have access.
0:44:16 > 0:44:18And I reiterate the point.
0:44:18 > 0:44:22If we are outside the single market, we will have a deal with them,
0:44:22 > 0:44:26just as many other countries do who are, a free-trade deal...
0:44:26 > 0:44:28But it will have tariffs, David, it will have tariffs.
0:44:28 > 0:44:32Unless you're part of the single market, it will have tariffs.
0:44:32 > 0:44:33- No, it won't.- Yes, it will.
0:44:33 > 0:44:40If you had what's called the World Trade Organisation arrangements,
0:44:40 > 0:44:42- the tariffs will go in both directions.- Yes.
0:44:42 > 0:44:46They will be far more penal to the German car industry,
0:44:46 > 0:44:49which sells a million cars a year here,
0:44:49 > 0:44:51than they would be to us.
0:44:51 > 0:44:55And the most powerful person in Europe is Angela Merkel.
0:44:55 > 0:44:58And she's got a general election in 2017.
0:44:58 > 0:45:01But even Angela Merkel cannot make a bilateral agreement...
0:45:01 > 0:45:02Wait a minute.
0:45:02 > 0:45:05Eventually, in the European Union,
0:45:05 > 0:45:08what Germany wants, Germany gets, I'm afraid.
0:45:08 > 0:45:11And there's also an election in France in 2017.
0:45:11 > 0:45:14They'll have the same issue with agricultural sales to us.
0:45:14 > 0:45:18So on that side, the argument is a very ill-thought-through one.
0:45:18 > 0:45:21- Can I just interrupt you?- You are factually wrong on this, David.
0:45:21 > 0:45:24Hang on, the head of the World Trade Organisation said
0:45:24 > 0:45:28the UK would face an extra £9 billion in trading costs
0:45:28 > 0:45:29if it left the EU.
0:45:29 > 0:45:31- Is he right or wrong? - No, he's wrong.
0:45:31 > 0:45:35He's making a guess about what will be the outcome of the negotiations.
0:45:35 > 0:45:39- David, you cannot say... - Can I just finish the argument?
0:45:39 > 0:45:42This negotiation will take two years at least to go through.
0:45:42 > 0:45:45There's going to be... Of course, in the first few months,
0:45:45 > 0:45:47there's going to be a degree of hysteria,
0:45:47 > 0:45:49there will be, there's no doubt about that.
0:45:49 > 0:45:53But then all of these countries have a vested interest, whether it's...
0:45:53 > 0:45:55The World Trade Organisation has a vested interest?
0:45:55 > 0:45:58No, the countries we are negotiating with, the group of countries...
0:45:58 > 0:46:00Poland wants to sell machinery to us,
0:46:00 > 0:46:03uh, the Italians want to sell fashion goods to us,
0:46:03 > 0:46:06the Germans, cars and engineering goods,
0:46:06 > 0:46:11uh, the Spaniards and French want to sell food and drink to us...
0:46:11 > 0:46:14And they all have surpluses in our direction.
0:46:14 > 0:46:17So they want to sell to us more than we want to sell to them.
0:46:17 > 0:46:19- Can I just...? On that point... - I'm afraid...
0:46:19 > 0:46:22- I'm afraid the negotiation WILL happen!- OK.- And...
0:46:22 > 0:46:25- I just want to correct one thing that you keep saying.- But, no...
0:46:25 > 0:46:27- Let Caroline have her corrections. - No, I want...
0:46:27 > 0:46:29- Let Caroline make the correction. - All right.- Only fair.
0:46:29 > 0:46:31I want to correct the point where you keep saying
0:46:31 > 0:46:34that the EU needs us more than we need it.
0:46:34 > 0:46:38Our exports to the EU are 13% of our GDP.
0:46:38 > 0:46:41- EU exports to Britain are 3% of their GDP.- Yeah, we keep...
0:46:41 > 0:46:43- We actually need them more than they need us.- We...
0:46:43 > 0:46:46- You are being incredibly complacent. - CHEERING
0:46:46 > 0:46:49- We...- Incredibly complacent.
0:46:49 > 0:46:53We... We keep... We... This...
0:46:53 > 0:46:55- This...- It's true, it's true!
0:46:55 > 0:46:57No, no, no... Let...let Caroline speak!
0:46:57 > 0:47:01The simple truth is that this negotiation
0:47:01 > 0:47:03is going to affect every country.
0:47:03 > 0:47:05They won't be doing a 3% deal, they'll be thinking about,
0:47:05 > 0:47:08"What about my industry? What about this industry?"
0:47:08 > 0:47:10We don't talk about the percentage deals we deal with,
0:47:10 > 0:47:13we look at what it means for our individual industries.
0:47:13 > 0:47:15And while we're at it,
0:47:15 > 0:47:18the suggestion by Ed that, "Oh, well, we can deal with Europe
0:47:18 > 0:47:20"AND we can have a deal with China" - we can't.
0:47:20 > 0:47:23Whilst we're inside the European Union,
0:47:23 > 0:47:27We cannot negotiate with China. We cannot negotiate with India.
0:47:27 > 0:47:29- We cannot negotiate... - You've made the point.
0:47:29 > 0:47:31- Of course you can.- We'd do a better job than they would.
0:47:31 > 0:47:33David, you've spoken for some time. Let's just...
0:47:33 > 0:47:35We must balance this up. Ed Miliband.
0:47:35 > 0:47:38I mean, look, I think Caroline rather exposed David's argument.
0:47:38 > 0:47:41But I think the other thing, David, that comes across is
0:47:41 > 0:47:43it is a massive leap into the unknown.
0:47:43 > 0:47:45I've read some of the things you've said about this.
0:47:45 > 0:47:47You said we should be like Canada,
0:47:47 > 0:47:50but then people pointed out that actually, the Canadian trade deal
0:47:50 > 0:47:52has taken eight years, it isn't complete, it's got tariffs,
0:47:52 > 0:47:55so you say, "Well, maybe we shouldn't be like Canada."
0:47:55 > 0:47:57Today you're saying, "We'd be like Norway or Switzerland,"
0:47:57 > 0:48:00in a speech you made, but not really like Norway or Switzerland.
0:48:00 > 0:48:04It's some kind of unique status that only Britain is going to have
0:48:04 > 0:48:06and you can't actually tell us the country we're going to be like.
0:48:06 > 0:48:08- Which country would it be like? - Well, that's...
0:48:08 > 0:48:11- Which country would it be like? - That's because...
0:48:11 > 0:48:12APPLAUSE
0:48:12 > 0:48:18Just tell us the country! Canada? Albania? Norway, Switzerland?
0:48:18 > 0:48:19The country we're going to be like is...
0:48:19 > 0:48:22- The country we're going to be like is Great Britain.- Fine.
0:48:22 > 0:48:24LOUD CHEERING AND APPLAUSE
0:48:24 > 0:48:28We have an enormous spending power. You know...
0:48:28 > 0:48:32This is... This is... This is... This is...
0:48:32 > 0:48:35- This is...- It's good rhetoric, but it's not an answer.
0:48:35 > 0:48:37- This is the standard...- I'm afraid it's not an answer, David.
0:48:37 > 0:48:39This is the standard response. Every time...
0:48:39 > 0:48:41- Every time... - AUDIENCE MEMBER HECKLES
0:48:41 > 0:48:43- Every time... - Just say one country.
0:48:43 > 0:48:46Just one country whose trading arrangements we'd be like.
0:48:46 > 0:48:47It's a fair question.
0:48:47 > 0:48:50Every time...every time we offer an example of something which works,
0:48:50 > 0:48:52they say, "Oh, you're going to be like them."
0:48:52 > 0:48:54So, for example...
0:48:54 > 0:48:55- CAROLINE:- You haven't offered an example.
0:48:55 > 0:48:58I have lots of examples. He's talked about them.
0:48:58 > 0:49:01Switzerland, Canada, Chile...
0:49:01 > 0:49:03You don't want Switzerland, though, really, do you?
0:49:03 > 0:49:06What we're saying is other countries prove that things can be done...
0:49:06 > 0:49:09But you can't name a single country other than Great Britain
0:49:09 > 0:49:11whose trading arrangements with the EU we'll be like.
0:49:11 > 0:49:14- I think that's really important for the audience.- All right.
0:49:14 > 0:49:16There's no country in the whole world
0:49:16 > 0:49:19that has trading arrangements with the EU which he wants to emulate.
0:49:19 > 0:49:22Now, if that isn't a leap into the unknown and a massive risk,
0:49:22 > 0:49:23I don't know what is.
0:49:23 > 0:49:25CHEERING AND APPLAUSE Steve Hilton.
0:49:25 > 0:49:28I don't think that one's going anywhere, Steve Hilton.
0:49:28 > 0:49:30I want to say something on trade in a second,
0:49:30 > 0:49:32but just on this point of what's the alternative -
0:49:32 > 0:49:34the best thing that I've read about this
0:49:34 > 0:49:36and I can't remember who said it,
0:49:36 > 0:49:39was that it is really the most stupid question out, which is -
0:49:39 > 0:49:42- what's the alternative to being in...- Attack the question.
0:49:42 > 0:49:43No, not the question here,
0:49:43 > 0:49:45the question that YOU posed, which is -
0:49:45 > 0:49:47what's the alternative to being in the EU?
0:49:47 > 0:49:48- AUDIENCE MEMBER SHOUTS OUT - Hang on...
0:49:48 > 0:49:51The alternative to being in the EU is NOT being in the EU.
0:49:51 > 0:49:54- ED:- Oh, for goodness' sake! - And most of the countries...
0:49:54 > 0:49:56- And what does it look like? - It looks like...
0:49:56 > 0:49:57It looks like no environmental policy,
0:49:57 > 0:49:59it looks like getting rid of the Social Chapter,
0:49:59 > 0:50:03it looks like having no workers' rights protected at EU level.
0:50:03 > 0:50:06Well, most of the countries in the world are not in the EU
0:50:06 > 0:50:08and they are doing better than the EU.
0:50:08 > 0:50:10Now, on the trade question, um... I just wanted to offer...
0:50:10 > 0:50:13- ED:- But can you answer the question that he didn't answer?
0:50:13 > 0:50:15- Which is... - He's got it right!
0:50:15 > 0:50:18The country that we'd be like is our own country, it's...
0:50:18 > 0:50:20- DAVID DAVIS:- Absolutely... - CHEERING
0:50:20 > 0:50:21It's such a silly... Honestly...
0:50:21 > 0:50:26Please...I really, really wish that these politicians
0:50:26 > 0:50:28would just stop treating us like idiots.
0:50:28 > 0:50:30The point you're making is completely ridiculous.
0:50:30 > 0:50:32- No, it isn't. - Of course it is.
0:50:32 > 0:50:34- It's a very simple point. - We'd be like our own country!
0:50:34 > 0:50:37No, but as we look around the world, Steve, it's a serious point...
0:50:37 > 0:50:38As we look round the world,
0:50:38 > 0:50:40with the different trading arrangements,
0:50:40 > 0:50:42because trade is fundamental to this,
0:50:42 > 0:50:45what country do we want to emulate when it comes to our relationship
0:50:45 > 0:50:47- outside the EU with the EU? - It's the...
0:50:47 > 0:50:49And there's no point in saying Britain
0:50:49 > 0:50:51because we're in the EU at the moment, in the single market...
0:50:51 > 0:50:53- MAN:- Not for long, sonny!
0:50:53 > 0:50:55OK. Sorry, can I just, on the trade...?
0:50:55 > 0:50:57All right. Just briefly, then I'll come to you.
0:50:57 > 0:50:59There's a particular thing. I just wanted to offer
0:50:59 > 0:51:02a perspective on this question of trading arrangements.
0:51:02 > 0:51:04- All right. - Because there's a particular vanity
0:51:04 > 0:51:07that I have noticed about politicians,
0:51:07 > 0:51:10which is that they believe that the whole world
0:51:10 > 0:51:12revolves around what they decide and what they do...
0:51:12 > 0:51:14- SOME APPLAUSE - ..and they think that
0:51:14 > 0:51:17- the only good things that happen... - Is David Cameron like that then?
0:51:17 > 0:51:19- Hang on a second... - Is David Cameron like that?
0:51:19 > 0:51:21He's the exception, he's the exception(!)
0:51:21 > 0:51:24The only good things in the world come from the decisions they make
0:51:24 > 0:51:27and the rules they do and the things that they set up.
0:51:27 > 0:51:31The truth is that our success as an economy, more than anything else,
0:51:31 > 0:51:34depends on something that is known as comparative advantage.
0:51:34 > 0:51:37In simple terms, are we designing and making things
0:51:37 > 0:51:39that the rest of the world wants to buy?
0:51:39 > 0:51:43That's within our control and that's the fundamental point here,
0:51:43 > 0:51:46that WE need to make our economy more productive
0:51:46 > 0:51:50by the policies that we implement here in this country
0:51:50 > 0:51:52- and then that is what will lead to our success.- OK.
0:51:52 > 0:51:54APPLAUSE Points of view...
0:51:55 > 0:51:59I...I think that most people that are on the fence
0:51:59 > 0:52:02need to make a calculated decision
0:52:02 > 0:52:04and to do that, you need to calculate the risks.
0:52:04 > 0:52:08At least the Remain campaign is trying to quantify
0:52:08 > 0:52:11what it would be if we leave the EU.
0:52:11 > 0:52:13But what I hear from the Exit campaign
0:52:13 > 0:52:16is all this airy-fairy, "Follow me into La-La land"
0:52:16 > 0:52:18type of conversations, and I...
0:52:18 > 0:52:21I haven't heard anything... anything from you,
0:52:21 > 0:52:24apart from Great Britain will be fine in the rest of the world.
0:52:24 > 0:52:27You know, "We're going to be the Great Britain of old".
0:52:27 > 0:52:29I haven't heard anything, any real argument against that...
0:52:29 > 0:52:31Oh, not against that, but for that...
0:52:31 > 0:52:34And Mr Davis, I have to disagree with you -
0:52:34 > 0:52:35government doesn't know best,
0:52:35 > 0:52:38because the Tory government dismantled the NHS perfectly well.
0:52:38 > 0:52:42LAUGHTER AND APPLAUSE
0:52:42 > 0:52:45The woman in the back in red. We've only got a few moments left.
0:52:45 > 0:52:47The woman in red there at the very back. Yes.
0:52:47 > 0:52:50Something that none of the politicians here have mentioned
0:52:50 > 0:52:56is the fact that the Germans have a black bank balance,
0:52:56 > 0:52:59which roughly equals the sum of the total
0:52:59 > 0:53:03of the red bank balances in the other 27 countries.
0:53:03 > 0:53:05That, for me, speaks for itself.
0:53:05 > 0:53:08- SOME APPLAUSE - Europe's good for Germany.- OK.
0:53:08 > 0:53:12Um, and you, sir, up there. On the far right.
0:53:12 > 0:53:15I just think Ed Miliband's comments are a classic example
0:53:15 > 0:53:20of the Remain camp's position of doing our country down.
0:53:20 > 0:53:24We are the fifth-largest economy in the world
0:53:24 > 0:53:26and the sooner we get out, the better,
0:53:26 > 0:53:29get our seat back on the World Trade Organisation
0:53:29 > 0:53:31and get our identity back.
0:53:31 > 0:53:32Vote Leave!
0:53:32 > 0:53:35OK. And you. SOME CHEERING
0:53:37 > 0:53:39The woman in grey there, yes.
0:53:39 > 0:53:45You talked about the Remain campaign treating people like idiots,
0:53:45 > 0:53:47when the Leave campaign has used
0:53:47 > 0:53:49the most pathetic arguments for staying in.
0:53:49 > 0:53:53Boris Johnson's talking about how big bunches of bananas can be.
0:53:53 > 0:53:56- It's pathetic. - STEVE:- I agree, by the way.
0:53:56 > 0:53:58CHEERING AND APPLAUSE
0:53:58 > 0:54:01I...I agree. I've talked about both campaigns doing that,
0:54:01 > 0:54:03just to be clear.
0:54:03 > 0:54:05We have a question. We don't have time to take it,
0:54:05 > 0:54:08but perhaps the panel can comment on it -
0:54:08 > 0:54:11whether scare stories are having a detrimental effect
0:54:11 > 0:54:13on people's perception of politics,
0:54:13 > 0:54:16And also, whether the Conservative Party can ever reunite
0:54:16 > 0:54:20after the insults that they're hurling at each other.
0:54:20 > 0:54:22What do you think?
0:54:22 > 0:54:23Which would you like to ask?
0:54:23 > 0:54:26Either question, I don't care which you answer!
0:54:26 > 0:54:28Well, of course it's going to be difficult...
0:54:28 > 0:54:31The perception of politics is being diminished by the exaggeration
0:54:31 > 0:54:33and the Tory Party won't hold together.
0:54:33 > 0:54:35I think, actually, that is a fair point,
0:54:35 > 0:54:37that this battle, to some extent,
0:54:37 > 0:54:40is diminishing confidence in politicians.
0:54:40 > 0:54:43I think there's no doubt that's true.
0:54:43 > 0:54:46And partly... It's not just British politicians,
0:54:46 > 0:54:50I mean, I remember when Obama came over, he made his comments,
0:54:50 > 0:54:53there was a very short sort of 5% blip, as people said,
0:54:53 > 0:54:56"Oh, yeah. Oh, that-that frightens us."
0:54:56 > 0:54:58But then about a week later, they said,
0:54:58 > 0:55:01"Well, what's it got to do with him and what's he know anyway?"
0:55:01 > 0:55:04So there was a sort of clear resentment, really,
0:55:04 > 0:55:07at being told what to think and being told what to do
0:55:07 > 0:55:12and having these huge and unfounded scare stories run.
0:55:12 > 0:55:13- So, yes, I do think...- OK.
0:55:13 > 0:55:15Steve Hilton, do you think the Conservatives
0:55:15 > 0:55:18will be able to come back from an issue that's so divided them?
0:55:18 > 0:55:21Uh, I do, um, because there are really important, big things
0:55:21 > 0:55:23that the Government wants to get done
0:55:23 > 0:55:25and that will go on afterwards.
0:55:25 > 0:55:27But I also wanted to comment on the question about politics
0:55:27 > 0:55:30because I think it is really worrying what's happening.
0:55:30 > 0:55:34Um...I've talked earlier about the scare stories
0:55:34 > 0:55:35and the phoney figures and all the rest of it,
0:55:35 > 0:55:37and the fact that both campaigns, I think,
0:55:37 > 0:55:39are making this far too simple.
0:55:39 > 0:55:41But I think that what that really means
0:55:41 > 0:55:44is that people just are turned off by the whole thing,
0:55:44 > 0:55:46they don't want to go into politics at all,
0:55:46 > 0:55:48they don't want to participate
0:55:48 > 0:55:52and there's a point underlying it that I think is really important
0:55:52 > 0:55:55for us all to understand, which is - why do they do it?
0:55:55 > 0:55:56These are smart people.
0:55:56 > 0:55:59They can see that what they're doing is ridiculous and silly.
0:55:59 > 0:56:00Are they all smart, really?
0:56:00 > 0:56:02They are smart and well-intentioned,
0:56:02 > 0:56:05they're good people on all sides, they want to do their best.
0:56:05 > 0:56:07And they know that this stuff is ridiculous,
0:56:07 > 0:56:09even as they're saying it. And the question is...
0:56:09 > 0:56:11Isn't that a bit rich coming from you...?
0:56:11 > 0:56:13- I've owned up to my role in that. - You did that, didn't you?
0:56:13 > 0:56:16- Completely.- Devil eyes, what was that thing, with Blair...?
0:56:16 > 0:56:18Absolutely. Labour's tax bombshell, you'd pay £1,000...
0:56:18 > 0:56:21I've been involved in all this stuff, OK, for years.
0:56:21 > 0:56:23And I can now, with a bit of detachment,
0:56:23 > 0:56:26see and own up to the fact that that has been a trend
0:56:26 > 0:56:28that I think has been damaging,
0:56:28 > 0:56:31and it's got worse and worse in this campaign...
0:56:31 > 0:56:34- Hang on one second, I think... - We've got to stop.- I just think...
0:56:34 > 0:56:35Very quick. AUDIENCE MEMBER SHOUTS OUT
0:56:35 > 0:56:39- Wait a second...- Very quick. - The thing is that, actually,
0:56:39 > 0:56:43what they're counting on is that you are not sufficiently interested
0:56:43 > 0:56:46in the serious arguments and that you will fall for it
0:56:46 > 0:56:49cos they believe that you want simple, superficial things...
0:56:49 > 0:56:50Yeah, well, the evidence...
0:56:50 > 0:56:52You've got to show them that that is not true.
0:56:52 > 0:56:55The evidence of the Question Time audience is the exact opposite,
0:56:55 > 0:56:58which is people are absolutely fascinated by the arguments.
0:56:58 > 0:56:59Exactly. But that's why they need to stop...
0:56:59 > 0:57:02A very quick word cos we really are over time now.
0:57:02 > 0:57:03Yeah, cos I'm the non-politician here,
0:57:03 > 0:57:05I'm not even a Westminster insider
0:57:05 > 0:57:10and one of the reasons that I decided to leave was,
0:57:10 > 0:57:13all the politicians, they were just arguing amongst themselves,
0:57:13 > 0:57:15and it was men, it wasn't women.
0:57:15 > 0:57:17Men predominantly from down south.
0:57:17 > 0:57:19Wasn't a geographical spread of people.
0:57:19 > 0:57:22I turned my TV off and I went and did my own research,
0:57:22 > 0:57:25- and that's how I got to the position that I got to.- OK. And, Ed...
0:57:25 > 0:57:27- CAROLINE:- Can I...? - Yeah, very brief...
0:57:27 > 0:57:30All right. Very briefly, 30 seconds.
0:57:30 > 0:57:32My 30-second pitch is that I do think that this campaign
0:57:32 > 0:57:35desperately needs more optimism and it needs more vision
0:57:35 > 0:57:37and I want to say that I think it is actually quite extraordinary
0:57:37 > 0:57:40that 28 countries, that until very recently,
0:57:40 > 0:57:42actually used to try to solve their problems by fighting,
0:57:42 > 0:57:44by bullets and bombs, are now actually trying
0:57:44 > 0:57:47to find their solutions through discussion and debate...
0:57:47 > 0:57:49Sometimes it might be a bit cumbersome,
0:57:49 > 0:57:52- but actually, it's a better way of doing things.- OK.
0:57:52 > 0:57:55Do you want to just say, "So be it"? You agree?
0:57:55 > 0:57:58I agree with Caroline. Look, there has been too much negativity
0:57:58 > 0:57:59on both sides of this argument.
0:57:59 > 0:58:02World War III and Hitler on each side of the argument.
0:58:02 > 0:58:06And actually, there is a positive vision of an EU
0:58:06 > 0:58:10that works for people and is changed on climate change, on tax avoidance,
0:58:10 > 0:58:12on prosperity, on all of those things.
0:58:12 > 0:58:13I don't like the EU the way it is -
0:58:13 > 0:58:16- we've got to change it and make it better.- OK, thank you.
0:58:16 > 0:58:18CHEERING Right.
0:58:18 > 0:58:20Thank you very much.
0:58:20 > 0:58:25We've... I'm sorry, and I'm sorry, and I'm sorry... Um...
0:58:25 > 0:58:27- DAVID DAVIS: - We've been trying for 20 years!
0:58:27 > 0:58:30Our...our hour's up, unfortunately.
0:58:30 > 0:58:31Now, we're going to be in Cardiff next week.
0:58:31 > 0:58:34We have Frank Field for Labour,
0:58:34 > 0:58:37we have Neil Hamilton, the former Tory MP,
0:58:37 > 0:58:39now Ukip's leader in the Welsh Assembly.
0:58:39 > 0:58:41And then Folkestone the week after that.
0:58:41 > 0:58:44So, if you want to come either to Cardiff or Folkestone,
0:58:44 > 0:58:46or remember the week after that, those three sites -
0:58:46 > 0:58:48Nottingham, York and Milton Keynes -
0:58:48 > 0:58:51go to our website, or you can call the number...
0:58:53 > 0:58:555 Live listeners, as you know,
0:58:55 > 0:58:58this debate carries on to the early hours.
0:58:58 > 0:58:59But here, our time's up.
0:58:59 > 0:59:01I'm sad about it.
0:59:01 > 0:59:04Our panel, I thank them very much indeed for coming
0:59:04 > 0:59:09and to all of you who came to Ipswich or have come from Ipswich
0:59:09 > 0:59:11to be here tonight, many thanks.
0:59:11 > 0:59:13Until next Thursday, from Question Time, goodnight.
0:59:13 > 0:59:16APPLAUSE