:00:00. > :00:16.Welcome to you, whether you're watching or listening
:00:17. > :00:25.in our audience or at home, and to our panel tonight.
:00:26. > :00:32.The Conservative Environment Secretary, Elizabeth Truss, a
:00:33. > :00:38.campaigner to remain in the EU. Labour MP, Frank Field, campaigning
:00:39. > :00:41.to leave. From Ukip, which gained seven seats for the first time in
:00:42. > :00:48.the Welsh Assembly four weeks ago, Neil Hamilton. Plaid Cymru's first
:00:49. > :00:50.woman MP at Westminster, Liz Saville Roberts. And the left-wing writer
:00:51. > :01:02.and columnist, Owen Jones. Before we take our first question,
:01:03. > :01:05.don't forget Facebook, Twitter, or text 83981 to comment
:01:06. > :01:22.on what's said here. And, sorry for the glitch last week.
:01:23. > :01:26.The picture and sound were out of sync at the beginning of the
:01:27. > :01:30.programme with voices and mouths moving at a different pace. It was
:01:31. > :01:37.not your equipment, it was our fault and I hope it is OK this week.
:01:38. > :01:41.Right, our first question from Jasmine Ellis. Will leaving the EU
:01:42. > :01:47.increase my chances of getting on the property ladder or decrease?
:01:48. > :02:00.George Osborne said property prices could fall by 18% if we left. Who
:02:01. > :02:05.would like to start? Neil Hamilton. The principal driver of property
:02:06. > :02:09.price increases in recent years has been the massive uncontrolled levels
:02:10. > :02:14.of immigration. We are adding to our population every year on the
:02:15. > :02:18.government's official figures a third of a million people, a city
:02:19. > :02:25.the size of Cardiff being added to the population of the UK every year.
:02:26. > :02:28.If you increase the demand for property whilst supply remains
:02:29. > :02:34.largely constant, then prices are bound to increase. There are many
:02:35. > :02:38.other reasons why property prices have been increasing as well, all to
:02:39. > :02:42.do with restrictions on planning, etc, but fundamentally it is a
:02:43. > :02:47.population problem. England in particular, and I am referring to
:02:48. > :02:52.England as distinct from the UK, is one of the most densely populated
:02:53. > :02:58.countries in the EU. It has over 400 people per square kilometre,
:02:59. > :03:05.compared with only 229 in Germany, 121 in France. As most of the
:03:06. > :03:08.population increase we have had has been concentrated, house price
:03:09. > :03:11.increases has been concentrated in England and the south-east in
:03:12. > :03:16.particular, that has been the principal driver. What are you
:03:17. > :03:23.saying? Are you saying to her that the property ladder will give her a
:03:24. > :03:26.better chance to buy a house? I think it will. I am not suggesting
:03:27. > :03:31.it is the answer entirely to the problem. George Osborne's
:03:32. > :03:35.quantitative easing policy has also improved things. But that is a
:03:36. > :03:39.different question altogether. We have a lot of questions about the EU
:03:40. > :03:45.but we thought we would take this first. Owen Jones. Firstly, I
:03:46. > :03:49.strongly reject the idea that the housing crisis in this country was
:03:50. > :03:52.caused by immigrants or by the European Union, and we let
:03:53. > :03:54.politicians off the hook when we blame foreigners for the failure of
:03:55. > :03:54.governments in this country to build housing.
:03:55. > :04:08.APPLAUSE I was a floating voter to begin with
:04:09. > :04:11.in this referendum. I genuinely considered the case for Brexit. But
:04:12. > :04:15.I am sick of scaremongering on both sides and I think we should have a
:04:16. > :04:19.reasoned debate. Whether it is the nets of world War three on one hand,
:04:20. > :04:25.or Adolf Hitler and the Nazis on the other... Can you answer the
:04:26. > :04:32.question? The problem with housing was not caused by immigrants. This
:04:33. > :04:36.government's house-building record is the lowest in peace time in
:04:37. > :04:40.England and Wales. We are not building the housing the country
:04:41. > :04:43.desperately needs. We are not building Council housing. 5 million
:04:44. > :04:48.people languish on social housing waiting lists. We are not regulating
:04:49. > :04:53.the private renting sector. I am not on the housing ladder. I know I look
:04:54. > :04:59.12 but I am 31 and I am far from being on the housing ladder myself.
:05:00. > :05:03.We have to stop a situation where we blame people, whether from abroad or
:05:04. > :05:06.Brussels, because all Neil Hamilton wants us to do, posing as
:05:07. > :05:10.antiestablishment, is to let politicians off the hook in this
:05:11. > :05:18.country because of their failure to build the housing we desperately
:05:19. > :05:27.need. Are you getting nearer to the answer to your question? I think
:05:28. > :05:30.Owen Jones is answering Mike and I choux my question. I believe it is
:05:31. > :05:35.the fault of the Conservatives for not building more housing. Not
:05:36. > :05:40.building council houses is ridiculous, and we're not doing
:05:41. > :05:42.anything to stop the rent prices. Can I address that? Our government
:05:43. > :05:48.over the past five years Biltmore council houses than Labour over 13
:05:49. > :05:53.years in office, so that is simply not true. -- we Biltmore council
:05:54. > :05:58.houses. We recognise there is an issue with housing and we have a
:05:59. > :06:02.pledge to build 1 million more houses over the course of this
:06:03. > :06:05.Parliament. I sit on a committee to work on making sure that happens but
:06:06. > :06:10.we need to make sure the planning system works in people's favour. We
:06:11. > :06:16.are developing plans to do that. Owen is right. This is an issue
:06:17. > :06:20.about UK Government policy. One of my fears about leaving the EU is not
:06:21. > :06:23.only the massive damage to our economy and the impact on young
:06:24. > :06:28.people and the opportunities and the ability to get a job and the ability
:06:29. > :06:31.to move around Europe, but also the fact that we would divert attention
:06:32. > :06:36.from what are the really challenging issues we face as a country, which
:06:37. > :06:40.is getting people on the housing ladder, helping improve our
:06:41. > :06:44.education system, investing in the health service. Those are the
:06:45. > :06:47.critical issues people care about, and talking about Europe as though
:06:48. > :06:58.it is responsible for those problems is a massive diversion away from the
:06:59. > :07:03.key issues. Liz Truss, it was your Chancellor who said, as a warning,
:07:04. > :07:08.that house prices could fall by up to 18%, Treasury advice, if we left
:07:09. > :07:13.the EU. Wouldn't that be a good thing for people? Is that not what
:07:14. > :07:19.she wants? It would be an extremely bad thing for this country to go
:07:20. > :07:23.into recession, to have serious price shocks, to have investor
:07:24. > :07:29.uncertainty, with the consequent impact on people's jobs. We are
:07:30. > :07:32.talking about 500,000 jobs. Nobody wants that instability and
:07:33. > :07:37.uncertainty. We want more houses being built so that young people can
:07:38. > :07:44.get on the housing ladder and people can have those opportunities. Let's
:07:45. > :07:48.hear from the audience. I heard on the news that the Conservatives are
:07:49. > :07:51.increasing the right to a scheme into more social housing, so surely
:07:52. > :07:57.that is reducing social housing stock rather than increasing it and
:07:58. > :08:00.helping people in need. Frank Field. The answer is to not trust what the
:08:01. > :08:08.Chancellor of the Exchequer says. APPLAUSE
:08:09. > :08:16.Because he lies? Or what? I am sure he believes when he says it, but if
:08:17. > :08:19.you look at his record, his Budget hardly lasts one day before it
:08:20. > :08:24.starts unravelling. I am sure he means well when he says house prices
:08:25. > :08:30.will fall by 18% but my jasmine, I hope you will be deciding how you
:08:31. > :08:33.vote the destiny of this country on other reasons than that you might
:08:34. > :08:38.get on the property ladder, important as that is. Again, it is
:08:39. > :08:43.this divide in politics, polarising. Both answers are right. If we want
:08:44. > :08:49.more people housed, we need to build many more houses. But if you build
:08:50. > :08:53.many more houses and one third of a million new people come here to
:08:54. > :08:56.live, it actually makes it very difficult for the people already
:08:57. > :09:02.waiting. So there are a number of issues here which bear on it. But I
:09:03. > :09:08.hope nobody is going to decide the fate of this country on a George
:09:09. > :09:14.Osborne assertion that if you vote to come out house prices will fall
:09:15. > :09:19.by 18%. You, sir. Every government keeps saying we have to build more
:09:20. > :09:24.houses for immigrants coming over. What do they want? They want no
:09:25. > :09:29.Green Belt? Will it be concrete jungles from London to Cardiff? We
:09:30. > :09:30.have to have space for people to breathe, not just bricks and mortar.
:09:31. > :09:43.APPLAUSE Liz Saville Roberts. Speaking as the
:09:44. > :09:47.only person on the panel who lives in a house in Wales, I would also
:09:48. > :09:54.like... APPLAUSE
:09:55. > :10:02.I would like to note with some dismay that the only Welsh assembly
:10:03. > :10:05.member here kicked off on immigration, and that housing is
:10:06. > :10:06.actually a devolved matter and I would have expected reference to
:10:07. > :10:12.that. APPLAUSE
:10:13. > :10:21.Now, immigration, given that 95% of the population of Wales were born in
:10:22. > :10:25.the United Kingdom, immigration here is not so much a problem as
:10:26. > :10:30.migration. And the property ladder is very much a factor in that. We
:10:31. > :10:34.have an ageing housing stock that desperately needs improvement, a
:10:35. > :10:38.lack of social housing, and in the area I represent we also have a
:10:39. > :10:44.factor of second homes pushing up prices. For us, for the people I
:10:45. > :10:47.know and represent in Wales, the problem is developing the economy,
:10:48. > :10:51.that is what counts. There is, without a shadow of a doubt, Wales
:10:52. > :10:51.would be worse off if we were to leave the EU.
:10:52. > :11:02.APPLAUSE Enough for the moment on housing.
:11:03. > :11:06.Onto our next question on the EU. I know a lot of you to talk about it.
:11:07. > :11:13.Zena Blundell. Just before that, I am sorry, I
:11:14. > :11:19.should announce where we will be next. Folkestone next week, York the
:11:20. > :11:23.week after that, and two extra programmes before the vote,
:11:24. > :11:27.Nottingham with Michael Gove and Milton Keynes North David Cameron.
:11:28. > :11:30.If you want to come to any of those programmes, there is the address. I
:11:31. > :11:36.hope you will stay until the end of the programme when I will give the
:11:37. > :11:40.figures again. Isn't it true that no one really knows the effects of us
:11:41. > :11:41.leaving the EU because no country has ever left before?
:11:42. > :11:56.APPLAUSE That is true, in that we don't know
:11:57. > :12:00.what would happen. We don't have any positive will turn the tips in terms
:12:01. > :12:07.of trading arrangements that have been proposed. But what we do know
:12:08. > :12:11.is that being part of the EU has delivered huge economic prosperity
:12:12. > :12:14.to our country. Being part of that single market, having access to
:12:15. > :12:18.those 500 million people has meant that we have been able to trade, we
:12:19. > :12:23.have been able to do much more business. That means more jobs, more
:12:24. > :12:26.investment in our companies, more income for our people. And it
:12:27. > :12:33.ultimately means more money in all of our pockets. If you look at the
:12:34. > :12:37.example of a business like a farm that I met today in Somerset, they
:12:38. > :12:41.sell cheese right across the EU. Because we are part of the single
:12:42. > :12:45.market, they use the same labels on their products in France and
:12:46. > :12:49.Britain. It means they can expand business, take on more people, which
:12:50. > :12:53.means Somerset farmers do better, who supply them with milk. It means
:12:54. > :12:58.a local corner shop is doing better because people have money in their
:12:59. > :13:02.pockets to spend. So that single market is vitally important for our
:13:03. > :13:08.prosperity as a country. We know that if we left that single market,
:13:09. > :13:12.which is what the Leave campaign are proposing, we would see less trade,
:13:13. > :13:16.less investment, many companies have said they invest in the UK because
:13:17. > :13:21.of access to those 500 million people. And we would see a real
:13:22. > :13:25.impact on our income, not just a short-term recession which is going
:13:26. > :13:29.to last at least a year, and economists are predicting, but a
:13:30. > :13:33.real long-term impact on the level of income we would get, the
:13:34. > :13:38.opportunities that young people would have and the jobs available. I
:13:39. > :13:42.think we do know that. We know that trade is good and moving away from
:13:43. > :13:48.that relationship, becoming more inward facing, is going to make us
:13:49. > :13:51.all poorer. Frank Field, isn't it true that no one really knows the
:13:52. > :13:57.effects of leaving because no one has left before? I think that is
:13:58. > :14:01.absolutely right. One of the things that cannot be known is that nobody
:14:02. > :14:08.has left before, certainly not one of the major players. The effects on
:14:09. > :14:13.day two after the referendum when, whoever wins, there will be
:14:14. > :14:17.renegotiations, we literally do not know what the consequences will be.
:14:18. > :14:23.I think there are dangers and maybe later in the programme we will come
:14:24. > :14:25.onto this. But I don't think this recital of facts here, there and
:14:26. > :14:33.everywhere, which nobody knows whether they are true, on referendum
:14:34. > :14:39.day you are not going to make up your mind on some politician having
:14:40. > :14:44.given you a series of facts. Our very being has prepared us for this
:14:45. > :14:48.day, our history, our backgrounds, our knowledge. We will be making a
:14:49. > :14:53.decision about the destiny of our country. And while we have to go
:14:54. > :14:58.through this poetry of politicians thinking we are important and boring
:14:59. > :15:05.you with programmes and facts and all sorts of stunts... Steady on,
:15:06. > :15:12.the programmes have been rather exciting. Maybe for some it has been
:15:13. > :15:16.exciting. But it sounds everybody that we are now moving to that stage
:15:17. > :15:20.where the nation itself will make a decision about our destiny. And I do
:15:21. > :15:26.not think that sets of facts will help anybody do that. You are asking
:15:27. > :15:31.people to vote Brexit without having any knowledge of the effects of
:15:32. > :15:36.leaving, what it will be. Is that what you are saying? We do not know
:15:37. > :15:41.the consequences of leaving. The idea that in fact this group of
:15:42. > :15:45.countries will actually behave in a vicious way to us, it may be that
:15:46. > :15:50.they will spite their own face to be nasty to us. It might be that they
:15:51. > :15:55.get more out of our membership than we, in trade, gain from them. And
:15:56. > :16:03.they would want some sort of deal and want it quickly. It is a leap in
:16:04. > :16:08.the dark. It is not actually, at all. It is about the country making
:16:09. > :16:14.a decision about its destiny. The real danger is not what is being
:16:15. > :16:16.discussed. It is that, given that Mr Cameron only gave you the vote
:16:17. > :16:23.because he needed to to keep the Tory party together, that the vote
:16:24. > :16:27.is being denied to others in Europe. And the worry of this old elite that
:16:28. > :16:32.runs Europe must be that when other countries see how you exercise
:16:33. > :16:37.provoked, they will similarly demand a vote and that we would then be
:16:38. > :16:43.beginning to see goodbye to the European Union as we know it today.
:16:44. > :16:51.APPLAUSE. Zean ah you asked the question, you
:16:52. > :16:56.are looking perplexed? I want somebody to say, these are the
:16:57. > :17:01.guarantees of our continued sovereignty, that we won't lose any
:17:02. > :17:06.more sovereignty. We can't... And these are the guarantees of our
:17:07. > :17:10.economy. One way or the other. OK. These are the guarantees that will
:17:11. > :17:17.protect our NHS in the future, five years from now. And nobody's coming
:17:18. > :17:29.out with anything that will firmly convince me that you can offer those
:17:30. > :17:34.guarantees. Owain Jones? Frank, I have huge amounts of respect for
:17:35. > :17:37.Frank. An MP that represents the interests of working people and the
:17:38. > :17:46.rights were fought for at great costs and you were the first MP to
:17:47. > :17:51.do that. We have certain rights for workers that are guaranteed as part
:17:52. > :17:55.of that membership. Some of those are rights that you will depend on,
:17:56. > :17:59.paid annual leave, for example. For part-time workers, mostly women, to
:18:00. > :18:04.have the same rights as full-time workers, many will be worried about
:18:05. > :18:08.under-cutting of wages. Agency workers have to have the same rights
:18:09. > :18:11.as full-time workers, what do we seriously think will happen if we
:18:12. > :18:17.leave the European Union under this Conservative Government? I've a good
:18:18. > :18:20.idea - those rights will burn on a bonfire bit by a new Conservative
:18:21. > :18:24.Prime Minister Boris Johnson, we can't allow that to happen. In my
:18:25. > :18:27.opinion, the red line for me in this referendum was the rights and
:18:28. > :18:30.security working people and you can't trust the Conservative
:18:31. > :18:34.Government if we leave to protect the rights.
:18:35. > :18:38.APPLAUSE. Can I... Wait, we have heard your
:18:39. > :18:42.say. I know you're Secretary of State but you have to take your turn
:18:43. > :18:46.with the other panelists. Neil Hamilton? That neatly encapsulates
:18:47. > :18:52.the choice, it's if we are going to have a democracy in this country or
:18:53. > :18:57.not. We may well think the workers' rights so-called legislation in the
:18:58. > :19:01.EU is perfect, and what we want to keep for ever, but if the British
:19:02. > :19:04.people decided in a general election that they didn't want that
:19:05. > :19:08.particular scheme, shouldn't they have the right to vote for a
:19:09. > :19:13.Government that was going to change it? Similarly if you don't like the
:19:14. > :19:16.results, you could vote that Government out and then the
:19:17. > :19:22.legislation was changed. This is what democracy was all about. The
:19:23. > :19:26.Labour Government in the '70s introduced the Act 1975. We had
:19:27. > :19:31.workers' rights before we joined the EU as well. It's an evolving
:19:32. > :19:36.process. To go back to what Zena asked in her question was, what do
:19:37. > :19:39.we know about the future, we know it's inherently uncertain whether we
:19:40. > :19:44.are in or out, who knows how the eurozone is going to develop and the
:19:45. > :19:49.catastrophe that has unfolded which is enveloping the whole of Europe,
:19:50. > :19:55.the biggest attack on workers' rights in Europe, 49% youth
:19:56. > :19:59.unemployment in Greece, 47% in Spain, 39% youth unemployment in
:20:00. > :20:04.Italy, this is a #34ri9ical project being controlled by an unelected
:20:05. > :20:08.body of civil servants, people we don't have any control over, we
:20:09. > :20:11.can't elect them or dismiss them, yet they make our laws. It's an
:20:12. > :20:15.absolute disgrace this country's given away the power of its elected
:20:16. > :20:20.politicians to make our laws, people who we have a right to elect and
:20:21. > :20:20.people who if we don't like them we can dismiss.
:20:21. > :20:38.APPLAUSE. Forgive me because I have every
:20:39. > :20:41.respect for concerns about civility. When people talk about elections, I
:20:42. > :20:46.think of the House of Lords and where do we stand with that? What
:20:47. > :20:49.strikes me too... Do they have the same powers as the European
:20:50. > :20:56.Parliament of the Commission? Many aspects. We've had the EU, the
:20:57. > :21:02.devolution's changed it, the Supreme Court has changed the rules of the
:21:03. > :21:05.House of Lords. We pay 2% of our GDP to NATO, heaven knows, we work
:21:06. > :21:11.within a global community, we have to work with each other. If I could
:21:12. > :21:16.come back to what you were talking about Zena with the way that we are
:21:17. > :21:20.presented with these facts... No-one knows the effects were her actual
:21:21. > :21:25.words. In all honesty I think it's true. It's frustrating to have facts
:21:26. > :21:29.thrown at us which don't stand up. What we are being challenged to do
:21:30. > :21:34.here is, to think about who do we believe the most and it's that leap
:21:35. > :21:39.of faith. Part of the fear and fact-mongering, we need to help
:21:40. > :21:46.people make decisions, who do you believe the most? Who do you believe
:21:47. > :21:54.apart from yourself? For myself, I have to be convinced, and I am not,
:21:55. > :21:57.that Westminster would replicate... Sorry, you put your trust in
:21:58. > :22:03.Brussels rather than Westminster? So far Wales has done to the tune of
:22:04. > :22:08.?245 million per annum better, it gets more out of Europe than it pays
:22:09. > :22:11.in. You don't know that... In the infrastructure funding I have to
:22:12. > :22:15.believe that will be replicated. Although I've only been an MP for a
:22:16. > :22:21.year, I find that difficult to believe. 80% of our farmers receive
:22:22. > :22:27.varying amounts from the common agricultural committee. But it's
:22:28. > :22:32.taxpayers' money... People have done their best to argue against the
:22:33. > :22:37.common agricultural budget. I cannot for sheep and cattle farmers see a
:22:38. > :22:40.better future. Look, I believe in another Europe, that it's possible,
:22:41. > :22:44.I'm not defending the status quo. One of the things to show how we can
:22:45. > :22:49.change the European Union because it has to change and be democratised,
:22:50. > :22:51.this Government was the biggest cheerleader for the Transatlantic
:22:52. > :22:55.trading partnership, some will have heard of it, negotiated in secret to
:22:56. > :22:59.Brussels and the US, large corporations have the ability to sue
:23:00. > :23:04.elective Governments in secret courts on policies they don't like.
:23:05. > :23:08.Because people protested and campaigned, here and all over
:23:09. > :23:11.Europe, we not only got an exemption for the NHS forced on this
:23:12. > :23:16.Government against their will, but because people protested and
:23:17. > :23:19.campaigned all over Europe, it now lies in ruins. Don't let anyone say
:23:20. > :23:25.we can't change the European Union. If we make our voice heard, which is
:23:26. > :23:29.the only way you ever get change, I don't think Britain's perfect, the
:23:30. > :23:34.only way we do it is by organising it together, making our voice heard
:23:35. > :23:40.and taking on a political elite that wants to take away our rights.
:23:41. > :23:44.APPLAUSE. Liz, I'll come to you in a moment.
:23:45. > :23:50.The members of the audience first, you, Sir, on the gangway? If we were
:23:51. > :23:53.a country that were not part of the EU and the upcroping referendum was
:23:54. > :23:58.a vote to join, does the panel think it would be a good idea to join an
:23:59. > :24:03.organisation that's quite clearly corrupt and riddled with fraud? Liz
:24:04. > :24:07.truss? Perve APPLAUSE.
:24:08. > :24:12.If you were out, would you go in? I think the deal of being in the
:24:13. > :24:17.single market is incredibly valuable for our country and delivers a huge
:24:18. > :24:21.amount, having a market of 500 million people that we can sell our
:24:22. > :24:25.goods to, that we can trade with, is very important. Britain has the best
:24:26. > :24:29.of both worlds. We are not part of the eurozone, so the issues that
:24:30. > :24:34.Neil was talking about don't apply to us, we've got a growing economy,
:24:35. > :24:38.we are not part of the Schengen border free zone, we've got an
:24:39. > :24:42.exemption from ever closer union, we are in a very, very good position
:24:43. > :24:47.and frankly, I think it would be difficult for another country to
:24:48. > :24:52.negotiate the position we are in now with respect to Europe. Having
:24:53. > :24:57.access to the single market, which is incredibly valuable and does
:24:58. > :25:02.deliver huge benefits. So investors from overseas. We are a huge
:25:03. > :25:05.attractor of investment, car companies like Nissan know they can
:25:06. > :25:10.sell their cars across the European Union. That's really important. What
:25:11. > :25:13.about the democratic issue which is what Brexit people have been arguing
:25:14. > :25:20.for, Frank in his way and Neil in his way? I sit on the environment
:25:21. > :25:25.council and the agriculture council. We discuss the rules that are
:25:26. > :25:29.decided at a European level. I talk to my counterparts across the
:25:30. > :25:33.European Union. Now, of course... What percentage of the votes do you
:25:34. > :25:37.have... We have to come to agreements and compromises. What
:25:38. > :25:42.percentage of the vote do you have... We have an important
:25:43. > :25:47.influence. The common fisheries policy, previously we were throwing
:25:48. > :25:52.away dead fish into the sea because of the quotas. Why can't we do it
:25:53. > :25:56.entirely ourselves? Because we share the oceans. Because we are in the
:25:57. > :26:00.EU. Because we share the English Channel. Regardless of whether we
:26:01. > :26:04.are in or out of the EU, we'd have to do deals with other countries
:26:05. > :26:08.because we share those things. Before all this, we had a fishing
:26:09. > :26:12.industry. You are talking about throwing dead fish away.
:26:13. > :26:16.ALL SPEAK AT ONCE. Can I finish this point. Let Frank
:26:17. > :26:22.make his point because he picked up on something you said? It's tending
:26:23. > :26:27.to the details. I mean, the question or the intervention there was
:26:28. > :26:31.whether if we now know what we do know whether we'd actually join and
:26:32. > :26:37.Liz is saying it's brilliant because being in Europe we've made sure that
:26:38. > :26:41.fish aren't thrown overboard dead. It's a very important issue. At one
:26:42. > :26:45.time, we had a thriving fishing industry. Before we decided
:26:46. > :26:50.everybody else should share our fishing fields. So I think on the
:26:51. > :26:56.whole question of this, and the gentleman there was making a really
:26:57. > :27:01.valid point, that I can't remember the last time when your money was
:27:02. > :27:08.accounted properly in Europe and was signed off by the auditors. They
:27:09. > :27:14.cannot actually justify how they are spending your money. So I would have
:27:15. > :27:19.thought on that basis, whether we go in, knowing what we now know, it
:27:20. > :27:23.doesn't actually help with Zena's point which is the key thing,
:27:24. > :27:27.whether in fact through all this mist of facts being thrown all over
:27:28. > :27:30.the place, people get enough information to make a secure
:27:31. > :27:35.decision for the future of their country. I would like for the panel
:27:36. > :27:38.to listen to half a dozen voices from the audience, then you can pick
:27:39. > :27:43.up on any of the points that you like. The woman in yellow? You said
:27:44. > :27:46.we don't know the consequence of coming out, but we certainly know
:27:47. > :27:53.the consequence of staying in because the population of Scotland
:27:54. > :27:56.by 2023 will infiltrate through the whole of the country and how's our
:27:57. > :28:01.NHS and schools going to deal with it? We'll keep that point, the
:28:02. > :28:04.immigration one. You in the front in blue? You say you were in a good
:28:05. > :28:08.position being in Europe, I don't believe we are in a good position
:28:09. > :28:10.when we've got 28 bureaucrats lecturing us on how we run our
:28:11. > :28:17.country. APPLAUSE.
:28:18. > :28:21.OK. And you? I think the whole, all the polices throughout the whole
:28:22. > :28:26.in-out debate need to remember they are gambling with real people's
:28:27. > :28:30.lives. I'm 21, a graduate just out of university and if we come out, my
:28:31. > :28:34.generation will be dealing with the proper effects in ten, 15 years'
:28:35. > :28:37.time and it's not tittle-tattle, it's people's lives. What do you
:28:38. > :28:41.make of the debate so far and the things you have heard? Tit-for-tat.
:28:42. > :28:45.There's not been any constructive arguments that have come to light
:28:46. > :28:48.and I don't think it's fair we are being asked, the Brexit campaigners
:28:49. > :28:51.are asking us to vote on something we don't know the consequences of.
:28:52. > :28:56.They forget that we are playing with real people's lives. The man in the
:28:57. > :29:00.blue shirt at the very back? There is no guarantee in the future that
:29:01. > :29:04.if we do leave the EU, that we won't have immigration controls ourselves.
:29:05. > :29:07.Any negotiations in the future will obviously involve the free movement
:29:08. > :29:12.of people. APPLAUSE.
:29:13. > :29:19.OK. Let me take one more point. You in the second row? Both sides of the
:29:20. > :29:27.argument have come to an agreement that we need a single market whether
:29:28. > :29:36.we are in or out but the Brexiters say we will be able to negotiate
:29:37. > :29:40.using the single market have controls on the number of free
:29:41. > :29:43.movement of people, I want to know if that's true. We'll take the
:29:44. > :29:49.immigration issue. Neil Hamilton, you start?
:29:50. > :29:57.The key point is that unless we recover control of our borders and
:29:58. > :30:02.we in this country decide who we want to come and live and work here
:30:03. > :30:08.from abroad, then we are not going to be able to control the speed and
:30:09. > :30:13.flow of immigration. And nobody is saying immigration should be
:30:14. > :30:17.completely stopped. Far from it. But we cannot cope with the scale and
:30:18. > :30:21.speed of current immigration. We are adding a city the size of Cardiff to
:30:22. > :30:26.our national population in the UK every year and this is set to
:30:27. > :30:29.continue for the foreseeable future. 1 million extra people every three
:30:30. > :30:36.years. How our public services going to cope with the speed of change?
:30:37. > :30:39.And the wage compression, to go back to the point Owen was making
:30:40. > :30:43.earlier, what greater attack could there be on the rights of workers
:30:44. > :30:46.than to depress wages at the lowest point of the income scale so that
:30:47. > :30:48.the minimum wage becomes the maximum wage for millions of people?
:30:49. > :30:58.APPLAUSE What do you say to that? What I
:30:59. > :31:05.think is right and is a number of people listening to this sort of
:31:06. > :31:10.discussion is how immigration has become shorthand for legitimate
:31:11. > :31:15.concerns. -- what frightens people. Legitimate concerns about the
:31:16. > :31:19.employment, economy and security. One of the tragedies of the Labour
:31:20. > :31:22.Party is that they have let immigration become the toxic subject
:31:23. > :31:27.to the point that we are discussing it like this, and it has played into
:31:28. > :31:32.the hands of parties such as Ukip. We look at the economy and
:31:33. > :31:38.employment and is acuity. Aren't we surely better off working with our
:31:39. > :31:42.neighbours in Europe? The main concern for migration is not EU
:31:43. > :31:44.migrants but migrants from beyond Europe, sub-Saharan Africa, the
:31:45. > :31:53.Middle East, from conflict situations. How are we dealing with
:31:54. > :31:57.that? We are playing on very genuine fears here, but I do fear that the
:31:58. > :32:04.consequences when we talk about immigration is something we need to
:32:05. > :32:08.be very careful with. Do you want to come in? My understanding is that in
:32:09. > :32:14.terms of the third of a million, half of those are people not from
:32:15. > :32:18.the European Union. If we need to control it that badly, why don't we
:32:19. > :32:23.control the number of non-EU immigrants and reduce pressure that
:32:24. > :32:29.way? The figures are a third of a million, over 250,000 from Europe.
:32:30. > :32:36.Those are the government figures on this. But this whole question about
:32:37. > :32:41.immigration, I don't view it like Liz. I think it is a legitimate
:32:42. > :32:47.question, partly because it is not just about immigration. That is what
:32:48. > :32:52.I said, to be fair. Then let me take the argument on. It is about who
:32:53. > :32:57.controls what, who is coming, how budgets are spent. If you have no
:32:58. > :33:00.control over your borders, as we have not had as far as Europe has
:33:01. > :33:06.gone since Labour open the borders in 2004, we have seen wages pushed
:33:07. > :33:13.down. My poorest constituents have lost out. There is real shortage of
:33:14. > :33:18.housing, difficulties with schools and pressure on the NHS. In a lovely
:33:19. > :33:22.world we could say that you taxpayers will cough up even more
:33:23. > :33:26.money and mitigate these effects. But it is very difficult to win an
:33:27. > :33:31.election and persuade you to spend more money in this particular way.
:33:32. > :33:36.So this is a key question because it sums up about whether we control our
:33:37. > :33:41.country or not, it is focused on the borders because that is a very real
:33:42. > :33:44.one that affects people's lives. If you are well-to-do in this country,
:33:45. > :33:48.upper middle-class, you have never had it so good. You have a serving
:33:49. > :33:52.class that the Edwardians had. At the bottom of the pile, you are the
:33:53. > :33:57.ones who have lost out, you are the ones looking to Ukip. My worry about
:33:58. > :34:00.this election campaign is that people who normally vote Labour will
:34:01. > :34:04.feel that because of the sort of campaign we are putting forward,
:34:05. > :34:08.somehow they will be disloyal as Labour voters to vote to come out.
:34:09. > :34:14.My message is that you can be totally loyal and vote to come out.
:34:15. > :34:16.That is not a reason for changing parties, as 1 million Labour
:34:17. > :34:18.supporters deserted us on this issue last time and went to Ukip.
:34:19. > :34:29.APPLAUSE Everybody has more to say, but this
:34:30. > :34:35.brings us exactly to what Owain John Bury wants to ask. With his
:34:36. > :34:40.half-hearted support for Remain, is Jeremy Corbyn signally hinting to
:34:41. > :34:44.the British people that we should leave the EU? Exactly what Frank
:34:45. > :34:50.Field would like. I don't think so. The problem is that the press has
:34:51. > :34:54.framed this debate as an argument between two rival Conservative
:34:55. > :35:00.factions. This is about the Labour Party. Not the Conservative Party.
:35:01. > :35:03.What is happening is that Jeremy Corbyn is making the point, I
:35:04. > :35:08.presume, and I think the campaign has started in earnest, that we need
:35:09. > :35:13.to stay in the European Union to change it, not to uncritically
:35:14. > :35:17.support what we have. A key point is the NHS, which links to that. One of
:35:18. > :35:24.the things Labour will be talking about is the NHS because Leave keep
:35:25. > :35:28.talking about it. They are stuffed full of people ideological opposed
:35:29. > :35:32.to the existence of a publicly run NHS. The NHS have a clear and
:35:33. > :35:36.present danger which Labour should be concerned about. Liz Truss, her
:35:37. > :35:40.government, the longest fall in spending on the NHS... I get
:35:41. > :35:44.impatient with panellists who do not answer the question. The question
:35:45. > :35:49.was about Labour and you will know the figures that suggest, I want to
:35:50. > :35:55.stick with this, that Labour, people who say they vote Labour, 45% say
:35:56. > :35:59.they do not know whether Labour wants them to stay in or exit.
:36:00. > :36:03.People on the left in Labour generally need to make our voices
:36:04. > :36:08.louder now, because we are in the middle of the referendum proper. I
:36:09. > :36:13.am not the representative of Jeremy Corbyn. I want him and the Labour
:36:14. > :36:17.Party... Heeded a speech today and I want farm or speeches on it. But
:36:18. > :36:24.what they need to talk about our issues that affect people. The Leave
:36:25. > :36:29.campaign, Neil Hamilton here is someone who opposes the existence of
:36:30. > :36:33.the NHS. He once it privatised. You said it was a more effective killing
:36:34. > :36:38.machine than the Taliban, a Soviet style monolith. There is a lot at
:36:39. > :36:41.stake, and the NHS is one of them. I want Jeremy Corbyn and the
:36:42. > :36:47.leadership to say what is at stake, including the NHS and the rights of
:36:48. > :36:51.workers. I welcome Jeremy Corbyn taking an active part in this
:36:52. > :36:56.campaign. I appeared with Ed Miliband talking about the benefits
:36:57. > :37:00.of the EU for the environment. We share the air and the seas, wildlife
:37:01. > :37:06.across Europe. It is important that we protect the environment. I am
:37:07. > :37:10.pleased the Labour Party is working with us on that. Jeremy Corbyn would
:37:11. > :37:16.not share a platform with you because he thinks it is disloyal. He
:37:17. > :37:20.is making his case in his way. One of the benefits of the Remain
:37:21. > :37:24.campaign is we do have people... I believe in free trade and that is
:37:25. > :37:29.why I am part of the remainder campaign. I think it delivers
:37:30. > :37:33.prosperity, more jobs. I have two daughters and I want them to live in
:37:34. > :37:36.an outward facing Britain, open to working collaboratively with other
:37:37. > :37:41.countries, where they have opportunities across Europe. Lots of
:37:42. > :37:45.other people have other reasons. We have heard from Owen and Liz. It is
:37:46. > :37:52.a campaign that is very cross- party. Whereas on the Leave
:37:53. > :37:57.campaign, and I'm a huge admirer of Frank, they have done fantastic work
:37:58. > :38:02.on early intervention. I don't agree with you on this issue, but I do
:38:03. > :38:07.think that a lot of the Leave agenda is about drawing our country in,
:38:08. > :38:11.isolating ourselves, not working with other countries, which we do
:38:12. > :38:18.successfully. We are working with them, rather than against them.
:38:19. > :38:26.Given that Jeremy Corbyn had one of the highest mandates ever, I think
:38:27. > :38:30.it is a shame that he is not speaking louder. We have the
:38:31. > :38:34.previous leader of the Labour Party who has a higher profile in this
:38:35. > :38:39.campaign than the current leader of the. Liz Saville Roberts, are you
:38:40. > :38:48.surprised he will not share a platform? I note this week that
:38:49. > :38:55.Jeremy Corbyn was on holiday, again. He does seem to be taking holidays
:38:56. > :39:00.when it is perhaps opportune. On the one hand, from the outside... Are
:39:01. > :39:05.you saying he is dodging by going away when he thinks it is
:39:06. > :39:11.inappropriate? He could be more outspoken than he is. I think the
:39:12. > :39:16.Labour Party is unfortunately indulging in ideological
:39:17. > :39:20.navel-gazing while one of the main Brexit personalities is using this
:39:21. > :39:24.as an extended job interview for the Prime Minister job. He did a speech
:39:25. > :39:29.today and the only thing the press spoke about was the fact that people
:39:30. > :39:36.heckled when a BBC reporter spoke, rather than talking about what he
:39:37. > :39:39.said. They are trying to learn the lessons from Scotland because what
:39:40. > :39:42.happened there was that Conservatives and Labour stood
:39:43. > :39:46.together, alienate it a lot of Labour voters and allowed it to be
:39:47. > :39:52.presented as an establishment stitch up. Are they right to do that? Was
:39:53. > :39:59.Sadiq Khan right? Sadiq Khan has his own mandate. You are a Labour man.
:40:00. > :40:05.Do you want to see Labour refusing to go alongside Tories on platforms?
:40:06. > :40:10.I think they should not do that, for reasons I said in Scotland. At the
:40:11. > :40:14.end of the day, the issue is that Jeremy Corbyn needs to make the case
:40:15. > :40:18.for a different, more democratic Europe run in the interests of the
:40:19. > :40:22.majority. I would like more passion in this. I can be passionate for
:40:23. > :40:28.Wales because the case is black and white and I see what we stand to
:40:29. > :40:30.lose. What we stand to lose with workers' rights, women's rights, the
:40:31. > :40:34.whole aspect of a better Europe we can be hoping for. I would expect
:40:35. > :40:42.greater leadership on the part of the Labour Party. The panel are
:40:43. > :40:49.taking cheap shots off each other and I think it is a simple fact of
:40:50. > :40:55.numbers. If you stop immigration, whether from Europe, from Africa,
:40:56. > :41:02.Brazil, you can then afford to build the houses that are required for the
:41:03. > :41:08.people who are homeless, for the hospitals, for schools, roads, etc.
:41:09. > :41:14.Stop the people coming in, sort out what we have a ready got. Charity
:41:15. > :41:18.begins at home. I am not disagreeing with that but the question was about
:41:19. > :41:26.Jeremy Corbyn and his role. I do not think Jeremy wishes, or could play a
:41:27. > :41:30.decisive role in this campaign. He came to the House of Commons after I
:41:31. > :41:34.came into the House of Commons. Every time he and I were protecting
:41:35. > :41:39.workers' rights in the way that Owen talks about, we were in the same
:41:40. > :41:44.lobby against what the European Union was actually doing, and now we
:41:45. > :41:46.have had this conversion. So why should anybody pay attention when
:41:47. > :41:55.you have such a track record of being suspicious of this superstate,
:41:56. > :41:58.of taking power away from you, of treating people in a totally
:41:59. > :42:05.disregarded fashion. Therefore, I don't think he plays a role at all.
:42:06. > :42:09.My worry, which is David's point, is first of all a large portion of
:42:10. > :42:13.Labour voters do not know where the party is. For once, I think that is
:42:14. > :42:18.an advantage, given the position that the party is trying to put
:42:19. > :42:23.forward. I am also thinking forward to the next election. This is
:42:24. > :42:27.incredibly important, and a question was raised at the beginning about
:42:28. > :42:31.the destiny of the country. I am also thinking that after referendum
:42:32. > :42:35.day, we get on with the business of trying to unite the government and
:42:36. > :42:41.the country together again. Our focus will then be on the next
:42:42. > :42:44.election. To unite the government? One of the functions of the
:42:45. > :42:47.government after this, its performance has been so pathetic, I
:42:48. > :42:50.think there will be a new Prime Minister and the job of that Prime
:42:51. > :42:55.Minister will be trying to get the governing party together. And the
:42:56. > :42:58.negotiating team will have to be established to take forward the
:42:59. > :43:02.ragbag of ideas the Prime Minister brought back from Europe, because
:43:03. > :43:08.they are not the gauche elated yet. They will need a negotiating team to
:43:09. > :43:11.unite the country. My worry is that throughout this process a large
:43:12. > :43:15.proportion of Labour voters will feel that nobody is speaking on
:43:16. > :43:20.their behalf. Liz has spoken powerfully under half of her
:43:21. > :43:24.daughters. Her daughters, thank God, are in a different position to lots
:43:25. > :43:30.of daughters in my constituency who are not as privileged as her
:43:31. > :43:33.daughters. They are at the bottom of the pile. What is actually going to
:43:34. > :43:39.happen to those, and whether they feel they are being represented in
:43:40. > :43:45.this debate? And I think people will feel yet again that the Labour Party
:43:46. > :43:48.has failed to deliver, putting very clearly, that we are on the side of
:43:49. > :43:50.those who have leased in our society and we are prepared to fight for
:43:51. > :43:56.those people. APPLAUSE
:43:57. > :44:03.You were talking as though you thought Cameron was going to win
:44:04. > :44:07.this referendum. I think whether he wins or loses. You were talking as
:44:08. > :44:13.though you thought he was going to win. Whatever the performance on
:44:14. > :44:18.polling day, his whole strategy was that you can negotiate from strength
:44:19. > :44:22.inside Europe. I bet nobody could tell us the six points on the little
:44:23. > :44:31.sheet he brought back, what he had negotiated. The idea that that was a
:44:32. > :44:36.strategy has failed. In a sense, that has collapsed the Remain
:44:37. > :44:44.campaign, which is now run from Downing Street. And I do think, come
:44:45. > :44:46.the day after, I would be very surprised if he has a long length of
:44:47. > :44:56.life as Prime Minister. I would like to follow on from
:44:57. > :45:00.Frank's point. He talks about people in society feeling disenfranchised,
:45:01. > :45:03.isn't part of the issue that some of these people aren't registered to
:45:04. > :45:09.vote, how do we encourage people to come out and vote? Neil Hamilton?
:45:10. > :45:13.One thing Ukip's done since it became a mainstream political party
:45:14. > :45:17.is to reengage people that have long since given up on the old parties
:45:18. > :45:24.and stopped voting. A lot of people vote for us who haven't voted for
:45:25. > :45:28.many, many years, if ever. Ukip in Wales in particular is now the party
:45:29. > :45:32.providing opposition to the Labour Party, Plaid are effectively in bed
:45:33. > :45:38.with the Labour Party in Government in Wales, if I can use that phrase.
:45:39. > :45:48.Well, you did call... You just used it. You used the phrase concubines
:45:49. > :45:53.which is frowned upon. Impregnable seats like Ebbw Vale and Merthyr
:45:54. > :45:59.Tydfil, we got votes from nowhere in the last general election and will
:46:00. > :46:04.take more votes like that. Can we come back to the referendum? Jeremy
:46:05. > :46:10.Corbyn is a great disappointment to me. I was elected the same day and
:46:11. > :46:13.voted with him in the lobbies many times on the European issues over
:46:14. > :46:18.the years because I'm a long-term Euro-sceptic but may be the oldest
:46:19. > :46:23.living Euro-sceptic having joined the league in 1967. So you see
:46:24. > :46:28.Corbyn as an absolute confirmed Brexiter who can't afford to say it?
:46:29. > :46:34.I think he's been kidnapped, by the establishment. No, no, no, no, no.
:46:35. > :46:39.He was going to make a speech on Turkey the other day saying they are
:46:40. > :46:45.demonising Turkey who should be regarded as a fully European country
:46:46. > :46:49.and Turks should be able to come here without hindrance, as the EU
:46:50. > :46:52.wants, and as David Cameron and the Conservative Government wants, and
:46:53. > :47:01.he was pulled from making that speech for fear that it would scare
:47:02. > :47:05.the horses and people... Let Liz Truss come in? There was a very
:47:06. > :47:09.important point made about people registering to vote before the 7th
:47:10. > :47:16.June. In particular, young people, because young people have the
:47:17. > :47:23.biggest stake, you know. They have the longest future and will be
:47:24. > :47:26.severely affected I believe if we leave and don't have those
:47:27. > :47:28.opportunities any more. A lot of people today have been talking about
:47:29. > :47:33.the facts that have been banded around. The reality is that, you
:47:34. > :47:39.know, 90% of the economists that are asked have said this would make
:47:40. > :47:47.Britain worse off. Rubbish... Well, there is a... Bogus statistics being
:47:48. > :47:53.banded around. They are not bogus. Liz, Liz, this is the same... Your
:47:54. > :47:59.leader, who I understand you are very keen on, Neil said that he is
:48:00. > :48:06.He's as keen on me as I am on him. He said leaving the single market, a
:48:07. > :48:10.worse economic outturn, lower incomes would be a price worth
:48:11. > :48:17.paying. He's saying what matters is democracy. Democracy is what
:48:18. > :48:23.matters. This is not the House of Commons! Don't shout at each other.
:48:24. > :48:27.APPLAUSE. You in the third row? I would like
:48:28. > :48:33.to pick up on something that Frank mentioned. Yes. Talking about the
:48:34. > :48:37.day after. We've seen with the Scottish referendum and the
:48:38. > :48:40.divisions that have been really deeply felt in Scotland and that
:48:41. > :48:43.have reverberated in British politics, we have seen with the
:48:44. > :48:47.example of the points scoring and the shouting over each other here, I
:48:48. > :48:53.don't agree with what the gentleman behind me says about the - sorry, I
:48:54. > :48:56.do agree about the point scoring but not necessarily about his point of
:48:57. > :49:02.view. I want to stay in Europe because I can foresee a future for
:49:03. > :49:06.myself and for my son where actually we need friends, we need to be
:49:07. > :49:11.mindful of the global position that we are going to be in and the fact
:49:12. > :49:16.that OK, it might be scary, it might be a step into the future that we
:49:17. > :49:20.don't know about, but actually surely going in with more
:49:21. > :49:25.cooperation, more understanding, more tolerance, I'm just really
:49:26. > :49:36.fearful that the day after Britain will turn on itself. That people
:49:37. > :49:44.will turn on on each other? Yes. The decision had to come and maybe
:49:45. > :49:47.actually the arrangements for the referendum were incredibly rushed
:49:48. > :49:54.and it's come as a surprise to most of the Populus and we probably
:49:55. > :50:01.needed a longer run into this for people. OK, the next question? Are
:50:02. > :50:04.David Cameron's days as Prime Minister numbered? Whatever happens
:50:05. > :50:11.are David Cameron's days as Prime Minister numbered? Liz? Well, in
:50:12. > :50:15.many ways, he's laid this path in progress, if you like, when he
:50:16. > :50:22.announced before the last election that this would be the last term he
:50:23. > :50:27.was stoning. You can see the timing of this, that these battles were
:50:28. > :50:31.bound to occur because he said he wouldn't stand any further. To be
:50:32. > :50:36.quite honest with you, we'll have to wait to see what happens on the 23rd
:50:37. > :50:43.June and after that. Do you share her view, in the woman in the third
:50:44. > :50:47.row, that the country will turn on itself because of the vehementness
:50:48. > :50:50.with which this has been fought? It's interesting to see what
:50:51. > :50:56.happened in Scotland. What was interesting is how much politics was
:50:57. > :50:59.energised by this and we are seeing a livelier conversation than
:51:00. > :51:04.previously. No-one's referred to this. The young lady down here on my
:51:05. > :51:08.right mentioned this earlier on. We should be moving to include younger
:51:09. > :51:09.people at the age of 16 to be voting on this referendum.
:51:10. > :51:25.APPLAUSE. OK. All right, you on the right? Are
:51:26. > :51:29.you over 16? I'm 17, so the referendum comes about six months
:51:30. > :51:33.before my 18th birthday so even though I have an opinionated view on
:51:34. > :51:38.the EU and know what I want to do, I still don't get a say. The proposal
:51:39. > :51:43.to change the voting age was voted against by the House of Commons so
:51:44. > :51:45.we talk about including young people, yet politicians voted
:51:46. > :51:50.against the inclusion of young people. Not all of us did. Surely
:51:51. > :51:53.that's also disenfranchising young people more because the polices
:51:54. > :51:57.running the country won't let them have a say. Don't you have any old
:51:58. > :52:07.relation that will lend their vote to you? Erm... Think about it? Can
:52:08. > :52:12.you do a trade-off? Not exactly. The person there in blue? I do think
:52:13. > :52:16.that after the election, if we do decide to stay in, it doesn't matter
:52:17. > :52:20.who Prime Minister is, it's all about can they reform the EU and on
:52:21. > :52:24.previous experience, it doesn't seem like they can, so I'm really Koon to
:52:25. > :52:28.take that forward and see what reform can actually happen within
:52:29. > :52:33.the EU. You in the checked shirt? Like Owen Jones has been saying and
:52:34. > :52:37.the man said about reform, as Frank pointed out, David Cameron, with the
:52:38. > :52:41.threat of Brexit went to Brussels and was still unable to negotiate a
:52:42. > :52:45.good deal on our behalf. After we vote to stay if we do, what
:52:46. > :52:50.negotiation power will we have then? If we vote to stay? Owen Jones, what
:52:51. > :52:54.do you think? We shouldn't just leave to it the politicians. We the
:52:55. > :53:01.people, the politicians exist to represent and serve us, people
:53:02. > :53:06.campaigned on it and forced them to take action to leave the rubble. I
:53:07. > :53:10.would like to see more people campaigning on issues like that for
:53:11. > :53:15.democratisation and the rest. To go back to the danger of our country
:53:16. > :53:20.going in on itself, it's a country full of anger and fury, fragmented,
:53:21. > :53:24.the next generation feel they'll be worse off than the next. People feel
:53:25. > :53:27.despair about politics. We have heard all the way through this
:53:28. > :53:30.campaign a lot of fear and despair and we should make a pact after
:53:31. > :53:33.this, whether it becomes to the European Union or the sort of Europe
:53:34. > :53:40.we want or the sort of Britain we want. Instead of turning in on each
:53:41. > :53:43.other, let's having a politics based on focussing on jobs, housing and
:53:44. > :53:49.wages, because we are not being offered this. Liz Truss, there are a
:53:50. > :53:53.large number of MPs who want to change the leadership even if he
:53:54. > :53:57.wins by a narrow or even by a large figure. What do you think will
:53:58. > :54:00.happen? I don't think that is true. David Cameron's been an incredibly
:54:01. > :54:05.successful Prime Minister, an incredibly successful leader of the
:54:06. > :54:10.Conservative Party. Why is it said that Cameron's at odds with half the
:54:11. > :54:15.party? We have a big agenda of association reform. Most of my
:54:16. > :54:20.generation, I went into Parliament in 2010, we have a new generation in
:54:21. > :54:24.2015 as well. We came into politics to see our position as a country to
:54:25. > :54:32.improve, to reform ours society, to help people get on in life. That's
:54:33. > :54:36.what motivates us, you know. I don't get out of bed in the morning to
:54:37. > :54:41.think about Europe, I think about how to make Britain a more
:54:42. > :54:44.successful country, to reform our education to give people like
:54:45. > :54:47.Frank's constituents more opportunities. That's what I'm
:54:48. > :54:52.excited by and frankly on 24th June, I want us to vote to remain in the
:54:53. > :54:56.EU and then I want us to get on with what is really important, some of
:54:57. > :54:59.the key challenges we have been talking about like housing,
:55:00. > :55:02.education, health. But do you think it was necessary, because the woman
:55:03. > :55:09.in the third row is suggesting this referendum only came about to heel
:55:10. > :55:13.divisions in the Tory party. Do you think it's necessary to have this
:55:14. > :55:16.referendum? There was a very good point made earlier by another
:55:17. > :55:21.audience member saying this is an issue that has been festering in our
:55:22. > :55:25.country, there's been discontent. I agree Europe does need further
:55:26. > :55:28.reform. I'm committed the achieving that and we are working and I've
:55:29. > :55:31.explained the types of things we are dog to achieve that. I think it's
:55:32. > :55:36.important we have this debate and I think it's a healthy debate.
:55:37. > :55:40.I would also like to get out of bed in the morning and not have to think
:55:41. > :55:48.about the EU. APPLAUSE.
:55:49. > :55:54.I think we can all agree with that. Liberation is on its way! Neil
:55:55. > :55:59.Hamilton? Well, I think David Cameron is a pretty pointless
:56:00. > :56:03.individual. He's had about as much influence on events as a court
:56:04. > :56:10.bobbing on the water, he goes with the tide. In a brief moment of
:56:11. > :56:15.candour after he became Tory leader, he described himself as the heir to
:56:16. > :56:19.Blair. The bottom fell out of the market in Blairs long ago so we
:56:20. > :56:22.haven't heard him mention that. The tragedy of David Cameron is, he
:56:23. > :56:28.doesn't really have many strong views on anything. I went into
:56:29. > :56:33.politics because I am motivated by strong beliefs, very different from
:56:34. > :56:36.Owens, but he's gone into politics because he's motivated by strong
:56:37. > :56:41.beliefs. I want to see passion, I want to see people who believe in
:56:42. > :56:44.things, we all believe in different ways of improving the condition of
:56:45. > :56:47.people and the people's lives. The people I don't understand are people
:56:48. > :56:53.who believe they are there to sit on a chair and to get office rather
:56:54. > :56:56.than when they don't know what to do with it.
:56:57. > :57:01.20 second and, Frank? I think you are right. I sent it's the -- sense
:57:02. > :57:05.it's the end of the era for the Prime Minister but you set the
:57:06. > :57:10.agenda that it was necessary to have this referendum, it came with huge
:57:11. > :57:14.dangers and whoever follows him, it's a crucial factor now to try and
:57:15. > :57:16.unite the country. Whatever the decision is, and I think whatever
:57:17. > :57:19.the decision is, both sides should accept it.
:57:20. > :57:20.OK. Thank you very much.
:57:21. > :57:34.APPLAUSE. So, we are going to be in Folkestone
:57:35. > :57:38.next week, we have Chris Grayling, a Brexiter, Hilary Benn and Nigel
:57:39. > :57:43.Farage, Ukip's leader in the UK, I should say, rather than in the Welsh
:57:44. > :57:46.Assembly. In Wales. And the Daily Telegraph columnist Alison Pearson
:57:47. > :57:53.on our panel. We are going to be in York the week after that. So there
:57:54. > :57:57.are the Folkestone and York dates and, Nottingham and Milton Keynes
:57:58. > :58:02.for the two special programmes, Nottingham and Milton Keynes, one
:58:03. > :58:09.with the Prime Minister and one with Michael Gove.
:58:10. > :58:15.Now, to come to this, you apply to our website or you call the number
:58:16. > :58:22.Which is on the screen. Next Thursday, BBC News is running what
:58:23. > :58:26.they're calling an EU referendum question day. We have been doing a
:58:27. > :58:30.lot of this. But they'll be running a question day. If you have a
:58:31. > :58:34.particular question you want to put to a BBC correspondent... And if you
:58:35. > :58:40.can get out of bed to put it? Yes, you can get in touch through any of
:58:41. > :58:44.the news programmes or at BBC/referendum. EU referendum
:58:45. > :58:48.question day next Thursday and there'll be Question Time as well of
:58:49. > :58:52.course. If you are listening on Five Live radio there's Question Time
:58:53. > :58:55.extra time, but thanks to the panel, thank you very much inteed for
:58:56. > :58:59.coming here and to all of you who came to Cardiff to take part. Until
:59:00. > :59:01.next Thursday, from Question Time, good night.