0:00:02 > 0:00:05Tonight, we're in Folkestone, and this is Question Time.
0:00:12 > 0:00:13And welcome to you,
0:00:13 > 0:00:17whether you're with us by television or radio, or in our audience here,
0:00:17 > 0:00:18and, of course, to our panel.
0:00:18 > 0:00:20Tonight, the Leader of the House of Commons,
0:00:20 > 0:00:24one of four Cabinet ministers campaigning to leave the EU,
0:00:24 > 0:00:25Chris Grayling.
0:00:25 > 0:00:30Labour's Shadow Foreign Secretary, supporting Remain, Hilary Benn.
0:00:30 > 0:00:34The leader of Ukip, Nigel Farage.
0:00:34 > 0:00:38The Daily Telegraph columnist and a Brexiter, Allison Pearson,
0:00:38 > 0:00:42and the comedian campaigning to remain in the EU, Eddie Izzard.
0:00:53 > 0:00:55And remember, of course, you've got Facebook, Twitter
0:00:55 > 0:00:58or texting on 83981,
0:00:58 > 0:01:01if you want to comment on what's said here this evening.
0:01:01 > 0:01:03Matt Dickingson has our first question, please. Matt.
0:01:03 > 0:01:05Yesterday, William Hague said that
0:01:05 > 0:01:08voters should not make their decision in the referendum
0:01:08 > 0:01:10on the basis of controlling immigration.
0:01:10 > 0:01:13- Do you agree?- William Hague made this statement yesterday.
0:01:13 > 0:01:16- Nigel Farage, was he right? - Extraordinary, isn't it?
0:01:16 > 0:01:19This was the Hague who, of course, was the great Euro-sceptic leader
0:01:19 > 0:01:22of the Conservative Party who fought against the euro,
0:01:22 > 0:01:25who railed against Europe and integration,
0:01:25 > 0:01:27and appears to have really rather sold out.
0:01:29 > 0:01:31Look, whichever way you cut this,
0:01:31 > 0:01:34immigration is the number one issue in British politics.
0:01:34 > 0:01:38It has been for some years. The opinion polls are astonishing.
0:01:38 > 0:01:4177% of the British public want cuts
0:01:41 > 0:01:45to the numbers coming into Britain and over half the voters
0:01:45 > 0:01:47want a reduction to near zero.
0:01:47 > 0:01:50So people are very upset, they're very unhappy.
0:01:50 > 0:01:53They're seeing the impact on local schools,
0:01:53 > 0:01:55they're seeing the impact on GP services,
0:01:55 > 0:01:58they're seeing the impact on housing,
0:01:58 > 0:02:01or the inability of young people to get on the housing ladder.
0:02:01 > 0:02:03So that's why it's the number one issue.
0:02:03 > 0:02:07And I think that the reason in this referendum
0:02:07 > 0:02:11why we have to talk about this is all the while, all the while,
0:02:11 > 0:02:15that, which is a British passport, or it should be,
0:02:15 > 0:02:17but the first two words on it are European Union,
0:02:17 > 0:02:21that is available to 508 million people.
0:02:21 > 0:02:24And any of those people, if they wish, can come to this country.
0:02:24 > 0:02:25We have no control.
0:02:25 > 0:02:30The only way we get control is to vote to leave the European Union.
0:02:30 > 0:02:33And I think William Hague shows he's just completely lost touch
0:02:33 > 0:02:37- with where the British public are on this issue.- OK.
0:02:37 > 0:02:40In my mind, this is the issue that will decide the referendum.
0:02:40 > 0:02:44And that... APPLAUSE
0:02:46 > 0:02:48And that's why you said it didn't matter
0:02:48 > 0:02:51if we weren't slightly richer by leaving,
0:02:51 > 0:02:54- as long as we cut immigration? - Well, what I said was this,
0:02:54 > 0:02:55there are reports that say
0:02:55 > 0:02:58that we're better off with mass immigration.
0:02:58 > 0:03:01There are some reports that say we're slightly worse off,
0:03:01 > 0:03:02economically, with mass immigration.
0:03:02 > 0:03:06But, to me, there's an issue called the quality of life,
0:03:06 > 0:03:08and I think that matters more than money.
0:03:08 > 0:03:12It's about thinking our kids and grandkids can have what we've had
0:03:12 > 0:03:15in terms of access to local health care,
0:03:15 > 0:03:18in terms of our kids getting into local primary schools,
0:03:18 > 0:03:21in terms of our overall quality-of-life.
0:03:21 > 0:03:23And that, David, I think, matters more
0:03:23 > 0:03:26- than GDP rising by 1% per annum. - OK, well, no doubt we'll...
0:03:26 > 0:03:28APPLAUSE
0:03:30 > 0:03:32Eddie Izzard.
0:03:32 > 0:03:36Well, between 2001 and 2011,
0:03:36 > 0:03:40EU migrants put in 20 billion into the EU economy.
0:03:40 > 0:03:42They put in more than they take out.
0:03:42 > 0:03:45I know people are concerned about immigration,
0:03:45 > 0:03:49but we've got to look at the facts. These facts are in front of us.
0:03:49 > 0:03:52I mean, Sarah Wollaston, she exited the Brexit campaign today
0:03:52 > 0:03:54because she said that the figures that are coming out
0:03:54 > 0:03:58from the Brexit side are coming out false.
0:03:58 > 0:04:00And she said, and she's a GP, she said,
0:04:00 > 0:04:03like the NHS, a lot of information was stoked up about the NHS
0:04:03 > 0:04:05and she said, "It's not true. It isn't true."
0:04:05 > 0:04:07So she has actually left the campaign
0:04:07 > 0:04:09and she's joined the Remain side. There are sceptics,
0:04:09 > 0:04:12Euro-sceptics that are joining the Remain side even though
0:04:12 > 0:04:14they're still sceptical because they see the economic problems
0:04:14 > 0:04:17of pulling out. If we pull out, we are going to go into recession.
0:04:17 > 0:04:20Brexit is almost an anagram of recession.
0:04:20 > 0:04:22If you put two S's into the word Brexit, it's Brexession.
0:04:22 > 0:04:24- They almost designed it that way. - LAUGHTER
0:04:24 > 0:04:27- And...- What's that got to do with immigration, Eddie?
0:04:27 > 0:04:29Wasn't that the question, immigration?
0:04:29 > 0:04:31Well, the point is if we pull out then we become Norway,
0:04:31 > 0:04:34Norway still has to have the free movement of people in.
0:04:34 > 0:04:36So we become Norway or are we going to become Albania?
0:04:36 > 0:04:38If we do, the Prime Minister of Albania wants to join the EU.
0:04:38 > 0:04:41Or we become Canada. The point is, you are from an immigrant family
0:04:41 > 0:04:44and you're married to an immigrant. Why are you so against immigration
0:04:44 > 0:04:47- when it worked for your family? - Because we have to control it.
0:04:47 > 0:04:50- APPLAUSE - Hang on. You grew up...
0:04:50 > 0:04:53You're from... You're French Protestants from one side,
0:04:53 > 0:04:55you're German from the other side.
0:04:55 > 0:04:58- You should be the champion...- Well, I am.- You should be the champion
0:04:58 > 0:05:00- of people who are immigrants coming in.- I am, but why...?
0:05:00 > 0:05:03- They got it to your situation. - Why do you want to stop people
0:05:03 > 0:05:06from the Commonwealth coming in because we have an open door to...?
0:05:06 > 0:05:08Why do you want to stop people coming in to a country...?
0:05:08 > 0:05:10SMATTERED APPLAUSE
0:05:10 > 0:05:12Because I want to have an Australian-style points system...
0:05:12 > 0:05:14Your ancestors are revolving in their graves.
0:05:14 > 0:05:16..where we get the right people coming to Britain
0:05:16 > 0:05:18- in the right numbers.- Nigel,
0:05:18 > 0:05:20you told your followers to bully people to vote for you.
0:05:20 > 0:05:23- This is not the right attitude. - Eddie, Eddie,
0:05:23 > 0:05:25if we go on with current levels of immigration...
0:05:25 > 0:05:27You've got to answer your own personal situation here!
0:05:27 > 0:05:30- ..our population will be... - You are from an immigrant family.
0:05:30 > 0:05:33- ..will be 80 million by 2040. - All right, all right.
0:05:33 > 0:05:35- OK.- How are we going to...? - All right, I get it.
0:05:35 > 0:05:38- APPLAUSE - How are we going to cope?
0:05:38 > 0:05:41There are four... There are three, three other people at the table,
0:05:41 > 0:05:43- I'm going to go to one of them. - How do we cope...
0:05:43 > 0:05:45- Hilary Benn, your turn. - ..with a population of 80 million
0:05:45 > 0:05:48- in 25 years' time?- Hilary Benn, your turn.- That's the question.
0:05:48 > 0:05:51I'm the son of an immigrant.
0:05:51 > 0:05:53Now, Nigel, you say that you want
0:05:53 > 0:05:55an Australian-style points system.
0:05:55 > 0:05:59- Yes.- What has it done in Australia? It's increased immigration.
0:05:59 > 0:06:00Now, let's tell each other the truth.
0:06:00 > 0:06:03It's a very important issue and you're right that people
0:06:03 > 0:06:05have concerns and there are pressures
0:06:05 > 0:06:06in particular communities.
0:06:06 > 0:06:09But the truth is, there will continue to be immigration
0:06:09 > 0:06:11whether we remain in the European Union
0:06:11 > 0:06:13or leave the European Union.
0:06:13 > 0:06:15But why can't you make your decision on the basis
0:06:15 > 0:06:18of controlling immigration, the question that I was asking?
0:06:18 > 0:06:20To come to that directly, I don't think it's wise
0:06:20 > 0:06:24to make your decision just on that basis for this reason.
0:06:24 > 0:06:29The price we pay for leaving will be to damage our economy.
0:06:29 > 0:06:32You know, it's very rare to get so many economists to reach agreement,
0:06:32 > 0:06:36nine out of ten. To get all of the surveys of business opinion,
0:06:36 > 0:06:38the IMF, the OECD, the World Bank,
0:06:38 > 0:06:40the governor of the Bank of England.
0:06:40 > 0:06:42Now, if you think they're all wrong,
0:06:42 > 0:06:45you have to be pretty confident that they're all wrong.
0:06:45 > 0:06:47How does damaging our economy,
0:06:47 > 0:06:50making life more difficult for people, putting up prices
0:06:50 > 0:06:53if the pound falls, how is that going to help deal with
0:06:53 > 0:06:55the problem of immigration? It isn't.
0:06:55 > 0:06:56And I make one other point.
0:06:56 > 0:06:59One in five of our care workers in this country
0:06:59 > 0:07:03come from outside the United Kingdom.
0:07:03 > 0:07:04Outside the United Kingdom.
0:07:04 > 0:07:07We have a demographic time bomb. More of us are getting older,
0:07:07 > 0:07:10we're going to need care, so that is why we will continue to need
0:07:10 > 0:07:13immigration, and what most people would say is
0:07:13 > 0:07:16as long as people come, they work, they pay their taxes -
0:07:16 > 0:07:19and Eddie is absolutely right, they contribute more into our economy
0:07:19 > 0:07:22than they take out - you know what that money goes on?
0:07:22 > 0:07:24- Helping to pay for our schools and our NHS.- OK...
0:07:24 > 0:07:27APPLAUSE
0:07:27 > 0:07:30Yes, in the third row there.
0:07:30 > 0:07:33I don't think anyone's putting into question that immigrants have had
0:07:33 > 0:07:37a fantastic, you know, have had a great impact on the economy.
0:07:37 > 0:07:39But there has to be a limit at some point.
0:07:39 > 0:07:42If you're going to leave that to chance and to the decisions of
0:07:42 > 0:07:44the European Commission, essentially,
0:07:44 > 0:07:46and the decisions to the discretion of the people
0:07:46 > 0:07:50from those countries, you could have an unsustainable model,
0:07:50 > 0:07:53essentially. The only way to gain control of our borders again
0:07:53 > 0:07:55is to leave the European Union.
0:07:55 > 0:07:57Do you think that's the most...? APPLAUSE
0:07:57 > 0:08:01You see, William Hague was saying that isn't the issue to decide on.
0:08:01 > 0:08:04- It is...- You think it is, do you? - I wouldn't say it's the main issue.
0:08:04 > 0:08:07The main issue is our democracy, but it is an issue nevertheless
0:08:07 > 0:08:10and I think it's wrong to undermine people's concerns about it
0:08:10 > 0:08:13because communities have been affected by it.
0:08:13 > 0:08:16- OK. EDDIE:- If communities are worried...- Sorry.
0:08:16 > 0:08:17The woman there. Yes.
0:08:17 > 0:08:20My whole problem is with the Out campaign as a whole.
0:08:20 > 0:08:22As a young person, I'm just seeing, like, this scaremongering
0:08:22 > 0:08:26about immigrants and why I should be voting Leave because of that.
0:08:26 > 0:08:27Are there any other reasons why,
0:08:27 > 0:08:30or is it all just solely on this problem of immigration,
0:08:30 > 0:08:33which personally I haven't experienced?
0:08:33 > 0:08:35Chris Grayling, you answer. APPLAUSE
0:08:35 > 0:08:37No, it's not entirely about immigration,
0:08:37 > 0:08:39it's about the future of our democracy, it's about our
0:08:39 > 0:08:42trading relationships around the world, about being part
0:08:42 > 0:08:45of a continent and a union that is being left behind economically.
0:08:45 > 0:08:48It's an ever smaller part of the world economy.
0:08:48 > 0:08:51There are opportunities out there we're not taking part in,
0:08:51 > 0:08:53we're not taking advantage of.
0:08:53 > 0:08:55But it is going to be a key part of the decision-making.
0:08:55 > 0:08:58And why it matters to you is this.
0:08:58 > 0:09:01There are many, many people who come to the United Kingdom,
0:09:01 > 0:09:03who play a big role in our country.
0:09:03 > 0:09:07But if we carry on bringing to this country every year
0:09:07 > 0:09:11the equivalent of a city the size of Newcastle upon Tyne...
0:09:11 > 0:09:14Now, for all of us who live in the south-east, I live there too,
0:09:14 > 0:09:16it is going to change the nature of the communities
0:09:16 > 0:09:18in which we live. It's going to become more built-up,
0:09:18 > 0:09:20it's going to become more congested,
0:09:20 > 0:09:22there are going to be more pressures on public services.
0:09:22 > 0:09:25If that's going to happen and if we're going to decide
0:09:25 > 0:09:26that's the right thing for our economy,
0:09:26 > 0:09:29I think at the very least you should have a say.
0:09:29 > 0:09:31And right now, we, as your elected politicians,
0:09:31 > 0:09:34have no ability to set limits on the number of people
0:09:34 > 0:09:36who come and live and work here.
0:09:36 > 0:09:38And the reason it makes a difference to you,
0:09:38 > 0:09:39you're going to want somewhere to live,
0:09:39 > 0:09:42in the future you're going to want to move up the housing ladder.
0:09:42 > 0:09:45The more people there are here, the more challenging it is for us
0:09:45 > 0:09:47to provide housing for the people who are here already,
0:09:47 > 0:09:50- to provide opportunities for them. - Except that they put 20 billion
0:09:50 > 0:09:52into the UK economy.
0:09:52 > 0:09:56But, Chris Grayling, there's an interesting point here.
0:09:56 > 0:09:59Your party said they would reduce immigration
0:09:59 > 0:10:02to tens of thousands - maximum, therefore, 100,000.
0:10:02 > 0:10:05And then you say you can't control EU immigration.
0:10:05 > 0:10:08184,000 people are coming from outside the EU.
0:10:08 > 0:10:09Even on the bit you CAN control,
0:10:09 > 0:10:11you've done nothing to bring the numbers down.
0:10:11 > 0:10:13- Why is that?- We need to do more...
0:10:13 > 0:10:18No, but, why haven't you done anything? The people are asking...
0:10:18 > 0:10:19You are saying, leave the EU,
0:10:19 > 0:10:22that will solve that bit of the immigration but
0:10:22 > 0:10:23what about the 184,000
0:10:23 > 0:10:26that you have had years to put right and you haven't?
0:10:26 > 0:10:29- There's a job of work to do... - Ah, so you have failed?
0:10:29 > 0:10:31We have clearly got more to do.
0:10:31 > 0:10:33So why should anyone believe that you are going to
0:10:33 > 0:10:36succeed by leaving the EU if you can't get the bit
0:10:36 > 0:10:37you can control right?
0:10:37 > 0:10:39APPLAUSE
0:10:42 > 0:10:44We've just passed an immigration act that will tighten up
0:10:44 > 0:10:47the system for people from outside the European Union.
0:10:47 > 0:10:49We can't do that for people inside the European Union,
0:10:49 > 0:10:52we cannot even say that people who come and live
0:10:52 > 0:10:54and work in the United Kingdom should have a job
0:10:54 > 0:10:57before they come here. That is illegal under European law.
0:10:57 > 0:11:00Surely we should have a say, surely we should be able to set some
0:11:00 > 0:11:03limits - isn't that what being a democracy is all about?
0:11:03 > 0:11:07- Can we become Norway? - I'll come to you in a moment.
0:11:07 > 0:11:09The man there - one, two, three, fourth row.
0:11:09 > 0:11:13I don't think it's an issue. I think immigration can be the biggest
0:11:13 > 0:11:16issue of this debate, simply because it affects so many other things.
0:11:16 > 0:11:17We have, for example,
0:11:17 > 0:11:20our green spaces seem to be disappearing as we go on,
0:11:20 > 0:11:23our forests, it seems this is not just an economic issue
0:11:23 > 0:11:25but an environmental one as well
0:11:25 > 0:11:27and I would like to hear a bit more about
0:11:27 > 0:11:30whether we can actually keep a sustainable population, sustainable
0:11:30 > 0:11:35cities while we have...we're not hitting immigration targets.
0:11:35 > 0:11:37Hold on, we'll keep that one for a moment.
0:11:37 > 0:11:39The woman up there, on the right.
0:11:39 > 0:11:42I think it is quite right, we do need the immigrants,
0:11:42 > 0:11:44they make a good contribution to us.
0:11:44 > 0:11:48But also, I think there is no reason why we shouldn't have
0:11:48 > 0:11:51immigration, obviously, if we leave the EU,
0:11:51 > 0:11:55because we can then have the people that we need and the people
0:11:55 > 0:11:59that we want and I do think we would have more of a say in it.
0:11:59 > 0:12:01I don't think very many people,
0:12:01 > 0:12:03if any, are saying that we don't want any.
0:12:03 > 0:12:06You know, we need them, we want them.
0:12:06 > 0:12:09Allison Pearson.
0:12:10 > 0:12:13I don't think anyone is saying we don't want any.
0:12:13 > 0:12:18We had 330,000 last year and the Treasury's own predictions
0:12:18 > 0:12:23are that in 14 years' time it will be another 3.2 million.
0:12:23 > 0:12:24These are vast figures.
0:12:24 > 0:12:28One thing I really was offended by, that William Hague said,
0:12:28 > 0:12:32and I feel some of these Remainers, very lofty, quite complacent
0:12:32 > 0:12:36and arrogant, let's not let these little people bother us,
0:12:36 > 0:12:40let's think globally. He used the phrase "parochial concerns".
0:12:40 > 0:12:43"Don't vote on parochial concerns."
0:12:43 > 0:12:46So let's think about some parochial concerns in my village.
0:12:46 > 0:12:49Can you get your child into the local primary school?
0:12:49 > 0:12:52Can you get the sibling of your child into the same primary
0:12:52 > 0:12:55school so you don't waste 20 minutes commuting on your working
0:12:55 > 0:12:57day to another school?
0:12:57 > 0:12:59Isn't that because there was a recession in 2008
0:12:59 > 0:13:01and austerity came in?
0:13:01 > 0:13:02I haven't finished, I'm sorry.
0:13:02 > 0:13:04I thought this was a debate.
0:13:04 > 0:13:05APPLAUSE
0:13:07 > 0:13:10We have had a lot of male voices and I am going to speak now.
0:13:10 > 0:13:14This is about families and mothers and children.
0:13:15 > 0:13:19Half of all maternity units in England have
0:13:19 > 0:13:24closed their doors in the last two years, for up to three days, because
0:13:24 > 0:13:29the pressure on midwives and on the service in general is dreadful.
0:13:29 > 0:13:32We had figures out this week about the NHS which were buried
0:13:32 > 0:13:34because of Sarah Wollaston's defection.
0:13:34 > 0:13:37But waiting times have gone up.
0:13:37 > 0:13:39Everywhere we look, we have to create,
0:13:39 > 0:13:43by 2024, 900,000 school places,
0:13:43 > 0:13:46lots of children can't get into their first choice
0:13:46 > 0:13:49of secondary school or even their third choice of secondary school.
0:13:49 > 0:13:53So this is not about keeping foreigners out,
0:13:53 > 0:13:57this is about our country, how many people can we sustain
0:13:57 > 0:14:00and maintain the quality of life. I want to finish with one thing.
0:14:00 > 0:14:03Be quick because you made a long statement.
0:14:03 > 0:14:05Former Chief Rabbi Jonathan Sacks said,
0:14:05 > 0:14:08if you have a well integrated country, it feels like a home.
0:14:08 > 0:14:13If you have too many people coming in, he said, it feels like a hotel.
0:14:13 > 0:14:18On 23rd of June we have to decide, is this our home or is it a hotel?
0:14:18 > 0:14:20Eddie Izzard.
0:14:26 > 0:14:29I just want to say to the people of Folkestone,
0:14:29 > 0:14:31the people of Britain, let us not forget a recession
0:14:31 > 0:14:34happened in 2008, a sub-prime capitalist recession.
0:14:34 > 0:14:37It came in, the government decided to do austerity.
0:14:37 > 0:14:39Austerity all across the country.
0:14:39 > 0:14:43Don't let's make the EU a scapegoat where we just lash out at the EU.
0:14:43 > 0:14:46There was a recession on and austerity is your policy.
0:14:46 > 0:14:48That's why people are hurting.
0:14:48 > 0:14:51The secretary general of the TUC and all major unions are saying,
0:14:51 > 0:14:53let's stay in the European Union.
0:14:53 > 0:14:55For God's sake, isn't it about humanity?
0:14:55 > 0:14:57We are trying to move forward in humanity, we are
0:14:57 > 0:15:00trying to head towards a world where everyone has a fair chance.
0:15:00 > 0:15:01The United Kingdom came together
0:15:01 > 0:15:04and that's what we're trying to do in the European Union.
0:15:04 > 0:15:06Let's head forwards, not backwards.
0:15:10 > 0:15:14Yeah, the biggest problem I find is we have a housing deficit.
0:15:14 > 0:15:16We can't build enough houses.
0:15:16 > 0:15:20A government, in a term, will set a figure, we can't reach it.
0:15:20 > 0:15:21We're not getting anywhere near it.
0:15:21 > 0:15:23We're talking about the mass immigration
0:15:23 > 0:15:26that is coming forward which we shouldn't be looking at.
0:15:26 > 0:15:28We should be looking at actually housing some of our former
0:15:28 > 0:15:31veterans, for one example,
0:15:31 > 0:15:35but we have got many families that are looking for property.
0:15:35 > 0:15:36There is just not enough.
0:15:36 > 0:15:38So, yes, immigration is a good thing
0:15:38 > 0:15:40but mass immigration is not a good thing.
0:15:40 > 0:15:44An Australian-style points system will be the fix of this country.
0:15:45 > 0:15:50What about the woman in spectacles? Hold on, Nigel.
0:15:50 > 0:15:54- The woman in the spectacles. - I completely agree with Eddie.
0:15:54 > 0:15:56The issues around housing and health
0:15:56 > 0:16:00- and the other systems aren't about immigration.- They are.
0:16:00 > 0:16:02- People are resources. - ALL SPEAK AT ONCE
0:16:02 > 0:16:05There are much more complicated reasons why...
0:16:05 > 0:16:08Let her start her sentence again because everybody shouted you down.
0:16:08 > 0:16:09Go on.
0:16:09 > 0:16:12There are much more complicated reasons why those
0:16:12 > 0:16:14systems are breaking down.
0:16:14 > 0:16:17A deliberate attempt by the Tory government to
0:16:17 > 0:16:18break down those systems
0:16:18 > 0:16:21because it is part of the social welfare system.
0:16:21 > 0:16:25It is an easy scapegoat, to blame immigrants.
0:16:25 > 0:16:28It is a really important point and Eddie has just said it.
0:16:28 > 0:16:30Let's ask ourselves the question, what is austerity?
0:16:30 > 0:16:33Austerity is a simple concept, it is living within your means.
0:16:33 > 0:16:37We cannot borrow and borrow in perpetuity into the future
0:16:37 > 0:16:39and pass those debts to our children.
0:16:39 > 0:16:41Rich people caused the sub-prime market meltdown.
0:16:41 > 0:16:43Poorer people are having to pay for it.
0:16:43 > 0:16:45APPLAUSE
0:16:47 > 0:16:50- Nigel, on the housing point. - A very odd place with this.
0:16:50 > 0:16:54The housing crisis has nothing to do with what happened to the banks
0:16:54 > 0:16:59in 2008. It does have to do with demand and supply in a marketplace.
0:16:59 > 0:17:01Think about this.
0:17:01 > 0:17:07At the moment, we have to build one new house every four minutes,
0:17:07 > 0:17:12night and day, just to cope with current levels of immigration.
0:17:12 > 0:17:15I would say that is wholly unsustainable
0:17:15 > 0:17:18and what we need to do is get the net figures
0:17:18 > 0:17:21coming into Britain back to an acceptable number so that
0:17:21 > 0:17:25our young people have got a chance of getting on the housing ladder.
0:17:25 > 0:17:27I'll come to you...
0:17:28 > 0:17:32Nigel, presumably the immediate effect, if Britain voted Brexit,
0:17:32 > 0:17:36would be a rush of EU people coming here to get in
0:17:36 > 0:17:39in the two years before Brexit had taken place.
0:17:39 > 0:17:41That will depend how the British government handles all this.
0:17:41 > 0:17:45- You can't stop it if you're in the EU, can you?- There are two factors.
0:17:45 > 0:17:48One is, if we say the door's closing in X number of months,
0:17:48 > 0:17:49there could be a flood.
0:17:49 > 0:17:53The other is, the eurozone crisis is coming back in July of this year,
0:17:53 > 0:17:57the third Greek bailout is on the agenda and I fear economic
0:17:57 > 0:18:00collapse in the Mediterranean could lead to huge numbers.
0:18:00 > 0:18:02The governor of the Bank of England, Mark Carney,
0:18:02 > 0:18:05says we are most probably going to go into recession.
0:18:05 > 0:18:08Luckily, Eddie, we didn't listen to you, we didn't join the euro,
0:18:08 > 0:18:09otherwise we'd be totally skint.
0:18:09 > 0:18:11I didn't say join the euro, Mark Carney...
0:18:11 > 0:18:13THEY ARGUE
0:18:13 > 0:18:15- Eddie...- You still haven't explained why
0:18:15 > 0:18:18you, as an immigrant family, are so anti-immigration.
0:18:18 > 0:18:20Everyone here would like to hear.
0:18:20 > 0:18:22The whole of the country would like to hear.
0:18:22 > 0:18:24Because we want to control it.
0:18:24 > 0:18:28I think we should make you change seats if you go on like this!
0:18:28 > 0:18:30LAUGHTER
0:18:30 > 0:18:31You put us next to each other.
0:18:33 > 0:18:36- I just...- No-one's fighting here.
0:18:36 > 0:18:38No-one's getting out guns and arms, that is what
0:18:38 > 0:18:41- the EU was set up to do...- Nigel...
0:18:42 > 0:18:44Nigel, I want to suggest this,
0:18:44 > 0:18:47you said that if a vote for Brexit happened,
0:18:47 > 0:18:50there would be a two-year period when people could flood in.
0:18:50 > 0:18:52I remember you talking about when Poles flooded
0:18:52 > 0:18:56in when Poland was admitted to the EU. Hold on a second.
0:18:56 > 0:18:57It could be argued that, actually,
0:18:57 > 0:19:00you would have a steadier rate, a more controlled
0:19:00 > 0:19:03rate of immigration into Britain by remaining in the EU
0:19:03 > 0:19:06and simply relying on the spread of growth in the EU for it not
0:19:06 > 0:19:08to overwhelm this country in the way that you say it will,
0:19:08 > 0:19:11whereas Brexit might have the exact opposite effect.
0:19:11 > 0:19:13Let's get one point clear.
0:19:13 > 0:19:15As members of the European Union, there is no control
0:19:15 > 0:19:19whatsoever over the numbers that come from the European Union
0:19:19 > 0:19:21and that, I think, is why Mr Cameron
0:19:21 > 0:19:23is getting so ratty in this campaign.
0:19:23 > 0:19:25You're a member for another two years.
0:19:25 > 0:19:28He was elected saying he would reduce net migration to
0:19:28 > 0:19:29tens of thousands a year.
0:19:29 > 0:19:33- As an EU member, we have no control. - Hilary Benn...
0:19:33 > 0:19:36IZZARD AND FARAGE ARGUE OVER EACH OTHER
0:19:36 > 0:19:40Is there ever an answer, are you just going to politically avoid it?
0:19:40 > 0:19:41Hilary Benn...
0:19:41 > 0:19:43IZZARD AND FARAGE ARGUE
0:19:45 > 0:19:46Shut up!
0:19:46 > 0:19:48APPLAUSE
0:19:51 > 0:19:52Hilary Benn.
0:19:53 > 0:19:56I think there's a problem controlling the panel.
0:19:56 > 0:19:57Anyway, look...
0:19:57 > 0:20:01The point is this, what nobody understands is...
0:20:01 > 0:20:04I mean, you talk, Allison, about the pressures,
0:20:04 > 0:20:08but how does damaging the British economy help us...?
0:20:08 > 0:20:13Nigel, you say, come on, a moment ago you said,
0:20:13 > 0:20:18if the price we pay is a bit less in GDP, that is what you said...
0:20:18 > 0:20:21- Because GDP... - WOMAN:- Shut up!
0:20:21 > 0:20:25That's what you said. You mentioned the two years.
0:20:25 > 0:20:28David, your question to Nigel was about the two years.
0:20:28 > 0:20:31If we vote to leave, the clock starts ticking on two years.
0:20:31 > 0:20:33If we haven't negotiated a new trading arrangement with the
0:20:33 > 0:20:37European Union in two years - you said this yourself, Nigel -
0:20:37 > 0:20:40we revert to World Trade Organisation terms.
0:20:40 > 0:20:41Do you know what that means?
0:20:41 > 0:20:44Every day we export nearly 2,000 cars to Europe,
0:20:44 > 0:20:46they enter Europe tariff-free.
0:20:46 > 0:20:51When America and Japan try to sell to Europe they pay a 10% tariff.
0:20:51 > 0:20:56We would start paying that if we exited and were on WTO terms.
0:20:56 > 0:21:02Do you know what the tariff would be on fruit? It would be 22%.
0:21:02 > 0:21:05- Damaging our economy... - ALL TALK AT ONCE
0:21:05 > 0:21:09All right, everybody. Calm down, everybody. Calm down.
0:21:09 > 0:21:13Quieten down, please, panel, because otherwise the audience will get
0:21:13 > 0:21:14so cross they'll walk out!
0:21:14 > 0:21:16LAUGHTER
0:21:16 > 0:21:18They'll do a Brexit!
0:21:18 > 0:21:23I would ask you to take it in turns so everybody can hear what you say.
0:21:23 > 0:21:27Let's go to a second question, about the economy, which is what
0:21:27 > 0:21:29you've been gradually coming around to. Before I do that,
0:21:29 > 0:21:32I want to tell the audience at home,
0:21:32 > 0:21:35we have three Question Times during the next week.
0:21:35 > 0:21:39Michael Gove is on his own against the audience in Nottingham -
0:21:39 > 0:21:41or with, I should say.
0:21:41 > 0:21:44There is a regular Thursday Question Time in York,
0:21:44 > 0:21:46and there's another Question Time with David Cameron
0:21:46 > 0:21:49from Milton Keynes on Sunday.
0:21:49 > 0:21:53Then there is a week's pause while we vote
0:21:53 > 0:21:56and then we are in Preston on June 30th.
0:21:56 > 0:21:58If you want to come to any of those programmes
0:21:58 > 0:22:00the details are on the screen.
0:22:00 > 0:22:04Let's try and have a civilised debate and go on to a question
0:22:04 > 0:22:06from Dean Onslow.
0:22:06 > 0:22:10The eurozone seems to be lurching from one economic crisis to another.
0:22:10 > 0:22:15Should we not distance ourselves from future economic risk?
0:22:15 > 0:22:19The eurozone lurching from one economic crisis to another.
0:22:19 > 0:22:21APPLAUSE
0:22:21 > 0:22:24Hilary Benn, it picks up the point you were making when I stopped you,
0:22:24 > 0:22:26so you can pick this question up.
0:22:26 > 0:22:28Thanks very much. The most important point
0:22:28 > 0:22:30is we are not in the euro.
0:22:30 > 0:22:33We're not. It was the last Labour government that decided
0:22:33 > 0:22:34we're not going to join the euro
0:22:34 > 0:22:37and I can see no circumstances in which we ever would.
0:22:37 > 0:22:40So, yes, there are problems for the eurozone,
0:22:40 > 0:22:45but it is a demonstration of our sovereignty that we did not join.
0:22:45 > 0:22:47We are not in the Schengen free passport area,
0:22:47 > 0:22:50we are not affected by ever-closer union.
0:22:50 > 0:22:55We are the fifth strongest economy in the world, but, Chris,
0:22:55 > 0:23:00you decried the European market, you said it was fading and falling.
0:23:00 > 0:23:0444% of our exports go to the EU.
0:23:04 > 0:23:06It is our biggest customer.
0:23:06 > 0:23:10The idea that if we walk away from Europe and tried to ring them up
0:23:10 > 0:23:13and say, "Can you give us a good deal?"
0:23:13 > 0:23:16Do we think France and Germany would give us a better deal outside
0:23:16 > 0:23:20than they give themselves inside the EU?
0:23:20 > 0:23:23- I don't think so.- What about the damage that's been done, though?
0:23:23 > 0:23:25APPLAUSE
0:23:25 > 0:23:28Nigel Farage referred to it, and I think Chris did,
0:23:28 > 0:23:31the damage that's being done now within Europe
0:23:31 > 0:23:34by the eurozone countries and the problems they have,
0:23:34 > 0:23:37are you saying that will have no impact at all on Britain
0:23:37 > 0:23:40and we wouldn't therefore be better trying it outside?
0:23:40 > 0:23:43It is having a big impact on the European countries
0:23:43 > 0:23:46affected by high levels of unemployment,
0:23:46 > 0:23:50that is the result of them having chosen to join the eurozone.
0:23:50 > 0:23:54But coming out, not only do we have to renegotiate our trade deal
0:23:54 > 0:23:56with Europe, we have to renegotiate our trade deal
0:23:56 > 0:24:01with 53 other countries that we have deals with currently -
0:24:01 > 0:24:05precisely because we are part of the largest single market in the world.
0:24:05 > 0:24:08That is why all of the economists and studies have said
0:24:08 > 0:24:10we will be worse off,
0:24:10 > 0:24:14and I don't see how that helps the country one little bit.
0:24:14 > 0:24:16APPLAUSE
0:24:18 > 0:24:22The key point that you are missing when you talk about our trade
0:24:22 > 0:24:25with the EU is that we buy far more from them
0:24:25 > 0:24:27than they buy from us.
0:24:27 > 0:24:30APPLAUSE
0:24:30 > 0:24:33We have the most monumental trade deficit with the EU.
0:24:33 > 0:24:38In what world will the German government say to its car-makers,
0:24:38 > 0:24:41who sell a million cars a year in the UK,
0:24:41 > 0:24:44"We're going to restrict your access to your most important market?"
0:24:44 > 0:24:47In what world are the French government say to the French
0:24:47 > 0:24:51farmers, and down on the south coast you know how they can get stroppy
0:24:51 > 0:24:55and blockade ports and the rest, in what world are the French government
0:24:55 > 0:24:56going to say to their farmers,
0:24:56 > 0:24:59"We're going to put the price of your product in the UK up
0:24:59 > 0:25:01"so you don't sell there any more?"
0:25:01 > 0:25:05It's not going to happen. We, in the UK, outside the EU,
0:25:05 > 0:25:09will represent 17% of the EU's exports. Those of you
0:25:09 > 0:25:12in the audience in business, in what world would you go to war
0:25:12 > 0:25:15with your biggest customer? It's not going to happen.
0:25:15 > 0:25:18Are you saying there'll be no tariffs raised against Britain
0:25:18 > 0:25:20exporting to Europe?
0:25:20 > 0:25:24- Why would the Europeans...? - Cos I heard Nigel Farage say...
0:25:24 > 0:25:28You said 5% might happen, and it was cheaper than paying into the EU.
0:25:28 > 0:25:31But the reason we would have a free trade agreement is they will have to
0:25:31 > 0:25:34accept putting tariffs on the goods they sell to us,
0:25:34 > 0:25:37and we buy more from them than they buy from us,
0:25:37 > 0:25:41and it will cost EU jobs if they damage their access to our market,
0:25:41 > 0:25:43which is why they won't do it.
0:25:43 > 0:25:48APPLAUSE
0:25:48 > 0:25:51Nigel Farage, you seem to think there is a possibility of tariffs
0:25:51 > 0:25:54being raised. You said 5%.
0:25:54 > 0:25:56What I'm saying is this,
0:25:56 > 0:26:00what did we join just over 40 years ago and why did we join it?
0:26:00 > 0:26:03We joined what was sold as a common market.
0:26:03 > 0:26:07Anybody here aged over 58 - though they were warned by Hilary's dad
0:26:07 > 0:26:13that it was a con job, and he was right - we joined a common market.
0:26:13 > 0:26:16My mum and dad voted for tariff-free access.
0:26:16 > 0:26:18That was the point, a post-war world,
0:26:18 > 0:26:22a post-Wall Street crash world, of very, very high barriers,
0:26:22 > 0:26:25particularly the manufactured goods being sold between countries.
0:26:25 > 0:26:28So we signed up to get rid of tariffs, and that was great.
0:26:28 > 0:26:30In the short-term there is a strong argument to say the common market
0:26:30 > 0:26:32was good for the British economy.
0:26:32 > 0:26:34Can you come to the question I put to you?
0:26:34 > 0:26:37However... However... However...
0:26:37 > 0:26:42the argument that is now being made by our two Remain panellists...
0:26:42 > 0:26:43- EDDIE:- Out of five.
0:26:43 > 0:26:46Well, just shows you how things have moved on. In the old days
0:26:46 > 0:26:49it was only me, so I'm delighted to have some company!
0:26:49 > 0:26:53LAUGHTER AND CHEERING
0:26:53 > 0:26:55Why don't you answer that question about your family?
0:26:55 > 0:26:58Why aren't you very positive about immigrants?
0:26:58 > 0:27:00I think you're beginning to bore people with this, I really do.
0:27:00 > 0:27:02You've never answered it.
0:27:02 > 0:27:04If nobody brings you to task...
0:27:04 > 0:27:08- You never answer the question, you avoided.- Eddie... Eddie...
0:27:08 > 0:27:11We believe in sensible, controlled immigration, all right?
0:27:11 > 0:27:14- You never answered the question. - Can we please not hear that again?
0:27:14 > 0:27:16You're from an immigrant family,
0:27:16 > 0:27:18you just don't care about immigrants.
0:27:18 > 0:27:22- That really is childish. - No, that's you, that's your family.
0:27:22 > 0:27:24Nigel, answer the question.
0:27:24 > 0:27:28- Right, OK. - I want to repeat it.
0:27:28 > 0:27:32Are you saying there might be 5% tariffs on British exports?
0:27:32 > 0:27:36We joined for tariff-free access to the European market,
0:27:36 > 0:27:3940 years on we have tariff-free access to the single market
0:27:39 > 0:27:43in a world where tariffs that were up there are now down there.
0:27:43 > 0:27:47The costs of being part of the single market cartel
0:27:47 > 0:27:50far outweigh any savings from tariffs.
0:27:50 > 0:27:54Even if tariffs were put on our goods, the total cost would be
0:27:54 > 0:27:56lower than our net contribution.
0:27:56 > 0:28:01So my argument is the worst-case scenario is better than
0:28:01 > 0:28:05where we are today, and as Chris says, the German car manufacturers
0:28:05 > 0:28:08will go on selling their cars in this country
0:28:08 > 0:28:11and I am going to go on drinking French wine and we'll go on
0:28:11 > 0:28:13doing business with each other.
0:28:13 > 0:28:15The man up there at the back.
0:28:15 > 0:28:18APPLAUSE
0:28:18 > 0:28:22It's not actually about "is it 1% of GDP?"
0:28:22 > 0:28:26it's actually how do you as a country want to govern yourself,
0:28:26 > 0:28:30and do you want to tie yourself to a certain number of other countries
0:28:30 > 0:28:34that happen to be nearby, or do you want to trade with the world?
0:28:34 > 0:28:37We can do both.
0:28:37 > 0:28:40The truth, sir, the truth is we can do both.
0:28:40 > 0:28:43The idea we are facing a choice between either trading with Europe
0:28:43 > 0:28:45and the rest of the world... In the last five years,
0:28:45 > 0:28:48what's happened to our exports to China? They have doubled.
0:28:48 > 0:28:50What's happened to our trade with Commonwealth countries?
0:28:50 > 0:28:54It's gone up enormously. It is not a competition between the two.
0:28:54 > 0:28:58Nigel said even if there were tariffs then that would be
0:28:58 > 0:29:01more than compensated for by the contribution
0:29:01 > 0:29:03we wouldn't have to make to the budget.
0:29:03 > 0:29:07Are you suggesting, Nigel, that you would use that money to compensate
0:29:07 > 0:29:10businesses in Britain that were facing the cost of a tariff?
0:29:10 > 0:29:12- Is that your policy? - It isn't just about businesses,
0:29:12 > 0:29:14it's about consumers.
0:29:14 > 0:29:17Why don't you come clean with the public - when they buy goods
0:29:17 > 0:29:21from outside the EU, if you buy a Japanese motor car,
0:29:21 > 0:29:25you pay a 10% tariff. If you buy kids shoes for school,
0:29:25 > 0:29:28you pay a 17% tariff if they come from outside the EU.
0:29:28 > 0:29:31What we've done here, we've inextricably linked ourselves,
0:29:31 > 0:29:34economically, to this fortress Europe idea.
0:29:34 > 0:29:38And what I want is us to be a global trading nation
0:29:38 > 0:29:41with cheaper prices for our consumers.
0:29:41 > 0:29:43ALL TALK AT ONCE
0:29:43 > 0:29:46All right, all right, wait. The woman there, you had your hand up.
0:29:46 > 0:29:48Mr Benn said it's not about sovereignty -
0:29:48 > 0:29:52- it is about sovereignty.- I didn't say that.- It's about democracy.
0:29:52 > 0:29:55I didn't say it was about sovereignty. I didn't say that.
0:29:55 > 0:30:00It is about our crown waters, our fishing industry, our farmers,
0:30:00 > 0:30:05who get subsidised to put their land aside
0:30:05 > 0:30:08so that they don't make the food that we can eat.
0:30:08 > 0:30:12Our fishing industry, they were given subsidies
0:30:12 > 0:30:14to burn their boats so that
0:30:14 > 0:30:17the fishing quotas could be given elsewhere.
0:30:17 > 0:30:18APPLAUSE
0:30:18 > 0:30:20Hang on, I'll come to you in a minute.
0:30:20 > 0:30:24I know you are 50-50 Remain...
0:30:24 > 0:30:28Or pretty well 50-50 and 50-50 exit.
0:30:28 > 0:30:31I want to hear from some Remainers
0:30:31 > 0:30:33who believe what is happening is...
0:30:33 > 0:30:35You, yes, indeed.
0:30:35 > 0:30:39I'm not British citizen and this really, really scares me.
0:30:39 > 0:30:41I've lived here for a long time
0:30:41 > 0:30:44and what I hear tonight actually worries and scares me.
0:30:44 > 0:30:49The EU was created originally by six countries after
0:30:49 > 0:30:52the war for peace and stability.
0:30:52 > 0:30:54Where is that now?
0:30:55 > 0:31:00UK joined later, in '73, hopefully for the same principles.
0:31:00 > 0:31:03Where are those principles tonight?
0:31:03 > 0:31:06Where is your search for stability?
0:31:06 > 0:31:09For... I don't know.
0:31:09 > 0:31:12Yeah, to keep those ideas going?
0:31:12 > 0:31:14What I've heard tonight, actually,
0:31:14 > 0:31:16why I'm scared now is what I've heard tonight
0:31:16 > 0:31:22is certain things that we're told were said in 1933 in Germany.
0:31:22 > 0:31:24We're not far off.
0:31:24 > 0:31:26APPLAUSE
0:31:26 > 0:31:28Allison Pearson.
0:31:28 > 0:31:32..all about immigration, and that really scares me
0:31:32 > 0:31:35because it's not about that.
0:31:35 > 0:31:40Those were used in 1933 in Nazi Germany.
0:31:40 > 0:31:45- Allison.- It's not the United Kingdom that's doing this.- Who's doing it?
0:31:45 > 0:31:47Can you let Allison answer?
0:31:47 > 0:31:51- So, it's the European Union, it's Brussels.- No.- No, it is Brussels
0:31:51 > 0:31:54because they are possessed by this ideal,
0:31:54 > 0:31:55since the eurozone was created.
0:31:55 > 0:32:00If we look across Europe, Europe is in a terrible economic mess.
0:32:00 > 0:32:04And Eddie used the word "Humanity" earlier. The men,
0:32:04 > 0:32:07the rich, white, old men, white men
0:32:07 > 0:32:13who run Brussels have imposed austerity and terrible conditions.
0:32:13 > 0:32:17Southern Europe, there are shortages of medicine...
0:32:17 > 0:32:21- It's what the Tory government... - ..it's incredibly high.
0:32:21 > 0:32:23They voted to come back in.
0:32:23 > 0:32:26So this idea of peace and stability,
0:32:26 > 0:32:27if you look across Europe,
0:32:27 > 0:32:31you see lots of countries going to the far right,
0:32:31 > 0:32:32going to the far left.
0:32:32 > 0:32:36This is not caused by the UK, this is caused by Brussels,
0:32:36 > 0:32:40which has not listened to the will of the European people.
0:32:40 > 0:32:43And in 2005,
0:32:43 > 0:32:46France and the Netherlands voted on the European constitution
0:32:46 > 0:32:51and both countries resoundingly rejected the European constitution.
0:32:51 > 0:32:54And Brussels didn't listen.
0:32:54 > 0:32:56They didn't listen when the Greeks had a referendum and said,
0:32:56 > 0:33:00"Please, do not impose more austerity on us."
0:33:00 > 0:33:03Who is Brussels?
0:33:03 > 0:33:08I'm sorry, but saying Brussels is not right because who is Brussels?
0:33:08 > 0:33:12- We are all Brussels. - No!- Yes, we are.- No, we are not!
0:33:12 > 0:33:16- THEY SHOUT OVER EACH OTHER - Yes, we are.
0:33:16 > 0:33:19All right, can we have...?
0:33:19 > 0:33:23Eddie Izzard and Nigel, if you would not interrupt him,
0:33:23 > 0:33:25he promises not to interrupt you next time.
0:33:25 > 0:33:27It's a deal.
0:33:27 > 0:33:29We'll answer that question of you later.
0:33:32 > 0:33:34Let us not forget,
0:33:34 > 0:33:37we have to head towards a world where all people have a fair chance.
0:33:37 > 0:33:39We have to head in that direction.
0:33:39 > 0:33:41Because otherwise despair is the fuel of terrorism,
0:33:41 > 0:33:43hope is the fuel of civilisation.
0:33:43 > 0:33:45We've got to be putting hope into the world.
0:33:45 > 0:33:48The United Kingdom, we used to kill each other in all sorts of wars
0:33:48 > 0:33:50and we gradually came together, to live together
0:33:50 > 0:33:52and work together in some shape or form.
0:33:52 > 0:33:54What that form is Scotland is still deciding,
0:33:54 > 0:33:55but they will peel off if there is Brexit.
0:33:55 > 0:33:58They will be going. And Wales could well be going.
0:33:58 > 0:34:02They won't. You sure, Allison? You're sure? How can you be sure?
0:34:02 > 0:34:05- They can't afford to go.- They will do that, they will wait their time
0:34:05 > 0:34:07and then they will peel off. But the point is that
0:34:07 > 0:34:10what we're doing in Europe is the hardest thing that's ever been done.
0:34:10 > 0:34:12No continent has ever done this before.
0:34:12 > 0:34:14This is not the American model.
0:34:14 > 0:34:162,500 years of murder, from Alexander The Great
0:34:16 > 0:34:18to World War II, and then we said, "Let's not do it again,"
0:34:18 > 0:34:20and it's not scaremongering, cos World War I
0:34:20 > 0:34:23was not called World War I, it was called the Great War,
0:34:23 > 0:34:25"the war to end all wars". And then there was another one.
0:34:25 > 0:34:28So that's why we set up the European Union in the first place.
0:34:28 > 0:34:30Whatever name it was. We were trying to make sure...
0:34:30 > 0:34:32We were reaching out like this, and not like this.
0:34:32 > 0:34:35And I feel the Brexiters are all doing this, and I'm doing this.
0:34:35 > 0:34:38That's why I'm running marathons, that's why I'm transgender -
0:34:38 > 0:34:40I came out 31 years ago - I'm trying to be brave,
0:34:40 > 0:34:42I'm touring France in French, Germany in German.
0:34:42 > 0:34:45These are positive things. I was there on D-Day, playing the shows,
0:34:45 > 0:34:46celebrating 72 years of peace
0:34:46 > 0:34:48and commemorating people who fell on that day.
0:34:48 > 0:34:51- And what do you say to the question Dean Onslow asked?- That one?
0:34:51 > 0:34:54No, Dean Onslow's question was that the eurozone lurches
0:34:54 > 0:34:57from one economic crisis to another, shouldn't we keep separate from it?
0:34:57 > 0:34:59There was a recession. There was a recession on.
0:34:59 > 0:35:03Did we just all lose memories? Remember that recession happened?
0:35:03 > 0:35:06- And it goes in there, and we're trying to make it work.- All right.
0:35:06 > 0:35:08We are tried to make it work. We've got head forwards and upwards.
0:35:08 > 0:35:11OK, Chris Grayling. I'll come to you in a moment. Chris Grayling.
0:35:11 > 0:35:14Well, look, my view, very straightforwardly, on this
0:35:14 > 0:35:17is that the European Union is being left behind.
0:35:17 > 0:35:20It is a diminishing share of the world economy. If you look at where
0:35:20 > 0:35:22the exciting developments are happening around the world,
0:35:22 > 0:35:24they are in Asia, in the Americas,
0:35:24 > 0:35:26they're actually in the Commonwealth. It is a nonsense
0:35:26 > 0:35:28that we, as the principal country,
0:35:28 > 0:35:30the lead country in the Commonwealth,
0:35:30 > 0:35:32cannot even negotiate a free trade agreement
0:35:32 > 0:35:33with our own Commonwealth partners.
0:35:33 > 0:35:36The reality is that we will carry on...
0:35:36 > 0:35:38MUTED APPLAUSE
0:35:39 > 0:35:42We will carry on trading with the rest of Europe, as we do now,
0:35:42 > 0:35:44because we buy more from them than they buy from us.
0:35:44 > 0:35:46But it is a reality that we have a trade surplus
0:35:46 > 0:35:49with the rest of the world, and a huge deficit in Europe.
0:35:49 > 0:35:50The opportunities are elsewhere.
0:35:50 > 0:35:52Let us not shut ourselves from them
0:35:52 > 0:35:55- in an economic bloc that is going backwards.- All right.
0:35:55 > 0:35:58APPLAUSE
0:35:59 > 0:36:03I seem to be a rare beast in the room - I haven't made my decision.
0:36:03 > 0:36:05I've got my postal vote with me in my handbag.
0:36:05 > 0:36:06LAUGHTER
0:36:06 > 0:36:09And perhaps I'm the only one that's not being fought at
0:36:09 > 0:36:12from both sides. But what I actually want you to do
0:36:12 > 0:36:15is give me clear guidance about what could make a difference to my life,
0:36:15 > 0:36:18and what could make a difference to me and my grandchildren
0:36:18 > 0:36:20and help me put a cross in the box tonight.
0:36:20 > 0:36:23And do you not feel you get this from hearing people talk about it?
0:36:23 > 0:36:26- We're trying.- I've got... - We are trying.
0:36:26 > 0:36:29I spend my time thinking, "Is that a plausible comment they just made?
0:36:29 > 0:36:30"Is that feasible? Is that viable?
0:36:30 > 0:36:35"Is there a competent and confident leadership after the referendum?"
0:36:35 > 0:36:38I regret, at present, I do not know,
0:36:38 > 0:36:41and it may be a tactical vote or purely, at the last minute,
0:36:41 > 0:36:44close my eyes. And I feel utterly ashamed to say
0:36:44 > 0:36:47that I cannot make my mind up. And I want you to help me.
0:36:47 > 0:36:50- All right.- So I think the key thing that you should bear in mind...
0:36:50 > 0:36:51APPLAUSE
0:36:51 > 0:36:56..on June the 23rd... We live in a country that has given away,
0:36:56 > 0:36:58and is continuing to give away, and will carry on giving away
0:36:58 > 0:37:01more and more of its ability to govern itself.
0:37:01 > 0:37:03And I want my children to live their life in a country,
0:37:03 > 0:37:06and I hope you want your children and grandchildren
0:37:06 > 0:37:08to live in a country that looks after its own national interests,
0:37:08 > 0:37:11is free to take decisions in its own national interest,
0:37:11 > 0:37:15is not in a place where most of its laws are made in another place,
0:37:15 > 0:37:17and where we have no control over things
0:37:17 > 0:37:20that make a material difference to all of our lives.
0:37:20 > 0:37:21Sorry, would you...?
0:37:21 > 0:37:24APPLAUSE
0:37:24 > 0:37:27Would you agree...? Would you agree, in talking to that woman,
0:37:27 > 0:37:30that the important thing in this is that the information given
0:37:30 > 0:37:34should be as near as possible accurate, as far as you know?
0:37:34 > 0:37:37Well, we should try and explain the issues as carefully as we can.
0:37:37 > 0:37:39For our different perspectives tonight,
0:37:39 > 0:37:41we're all trying to explain the issues as we see them.
0:37:41 > 0:37:42- We just disagree.- All right.
0:37:42 > 0:37:45Polly Radcliffe, let's have your question, then.
0:37:45 > 0:37:48Given Sarah Wollaston's statement that it simply isn't true
0:37:48 > 0:37:52that Brexit will unlock £350 million a week,
0:37:52 > 0:37:55can we believe a word the Leave camp say?
0:37:55 > 0:37:59And you'll know that the 350 million a week claim,
0:37:59 > 0:38:01all of which, apparently, according to the commercial
0:38:01 > 0:38:04that I saw on television just half an hour ago,
0:38:04 > 0:38:07is all going to be spent on the NHS, or can all be spent on the NHS.
0:38:07 > 0:38:10Some people think and say this simply isn't true.
0:38:10 > 0:38:12Perhaps you should answer that.
0:38:12 > 0:38:15Well, let me explain what the number is. It is a gross figure,
0:38:15 > 0:38:18it is the official Office Of National Statistics figure
0:38:18 > 0:38:20for our weekly contribution to the European Union,
0:38:20 > 0:38:23Table 9.9 of the ONS Pink Book 2014.
0:38:23 > 0:38:26We get about half of that money back, with strings attached,
0:38:26 > 0:38:29in the form of grants that are decided in Brussels,
0:38:29 > 0:38:31and in the form of a rebate which is constantly
0:38:31 > 0:38:33- being argued about by European partners.- Sorry, what are...?
0:38:33 > 0:38:36What are the strings attached to the rebate?
0:38:36 > 0:38:38The rebate is money that doesn't go there.
0:38:38 > 0:38:40Well, the rebate is calculated, varies year by year...
0:38:40 > 0:38:42What are the strings attached to it?
0:38:42 > 0:38:44It's calculated a year later and netted against...
0:38:44 > 0:38:46- But the Treasury gets it. - Yes, the Treasury gets it.
0:38:46 > 0:38:49I don't understand exactly. You get £350 million a week you pay,
0:38:49 > 0:38:5295 million a week goes back to the Treasury.
0:38:52 > 0:38:54So how can that be spent on the NHS?
0:38:54 > 0:38:57- They can spend it now if they want to.- Well, can I finish?
0:38:57 > 0:39:00The other half, which is about £10 billion a year
0:39:00 > 0:39:02is money that is spent elsewhere in Europe.
0:39:02 > 0:39:04That is money that could be spent on our priorities here.
0:39:04 > 0:39:06We have said in the campaign,
0:39:06 > 0:39:08we think we'd be able to release £100 million a week,
0:39:08 > 0:39:11£5 billion a year extra in the health service.
0:39:11 > 0:39:15As well as having money spare to remove VAT on fuel bills,
0:39:15 > 0:39:17and do some other things.
0:39:17 > 0:39:20Do you regret...? Do you regret that 350 million,
0:39:20 > 0:39:22which has been roundly criticised by people?
0:39:22 > 0:39:25It's the overall figure. If you look at a job advert...
0:39:25 > 0:39:29If I asked for £100 from you and I say, "Give me £100, Chris,"
0:39:29 > 0:39:30and you give me £100.
0:39:30 > 0:39:32"Actually, I don't need that 100, I'll give you 25 back."
0:39:32 > 0:39:35Have you given me 75, or have you given me 100?
0:39:35 > 0:39:36If you apply for a job...
0:39:36 > 0:39:38APPLAUSE
0:39:41 > 0:39:43If you apply for a job
0:39:43 > 0:39:45and the salary in that job is set out, it doesn't say,
0:39:45 > 0:39:48"£30,000, from which we will net off your National Insurance,
0:39:48 > 0:39:50"we'll take off money for your income tax,
0:39:50 > 0:39:52"and by the way you're a member of the pension scheme,
0:39:52 > 0:39:54"so it's actually £23,000."
0:39:54 > 0:39:57The advert says, "The salary is £30,000 a year."
0:39:57 > 0:39:59Our contribution to the European Union
0:39:59 > 0:40:00is £350 million a week,
0:40:00 > 0:40:03of which we get some back and some we don't get back.
0:40:03 > 0:40:07- Hilary Benn.- Well, Chris, you've struggled to try and explain away
0:40:07 > 0:40:10what is clearly untrue and, look, for me, when the chair...
0:40:10 > 0:40:11When the chair...
0:40:11 > 0:40:15A Conservative MP, who is the chair of the Health Select Committee,
0:40:15 > 0:40:18as Sarah Wollaston did yesterday, comes out and says,
0:40:18 > 0:40:21"I can no longer go along with this because it simply isn't true,"
0:40:21 > 0:40:25that tells us something about the character of the Leave campaign.
0:40:25 > 0:40:28But I also wanted to respond to the point that you made, madam,
0:40:28 > 0:40:30in looking for guidance as to how to vote, because,
0:40:30 > 0:40:33look, I am a father of four kids and a grandfather.
0:40:33 > 0:40:36For me, this is a decision about the future for our children
0:40:36 > 0:40:38- and our grandchildren.- Everybody always says that.- And I...!
0:40:38 > 0:40:40Well, I'm going to say it.
0:40:40 > 0:40:42Everybody's got children and grandchildren. Not so special.
0:40:42 > 0:40:45The point I'm going to make, David, I know it's nothing special.
0:40:45 > 0:40:48- LAUGHTER - I know it's nothing special,
0:40:48 > 0:40:50but Chris is absolutely wrong
0:40:50 > 0:40:54when he says that the way to safeguard our future
0:40:54 > 0:40:58is to isolate ourselves from 27 of our nearest neighbours.
0:40:58 > 0:41:01If we're going to deal with the challenges we face in this century,
0:41:01 > 0:41:04and help our children and our grandchildren to do that,
0:41:04 > 0:41:06we have to work in collaboration with our neighbours
0:41:06 > 0:41:10to tackle climate change, the threats from terrorism.
0:41:10 > 0:41:12And I was really sorry, Allison,
0:41:12 > 0:41:14when the Brussels bombings were taking place,
0:41:14 > 0:41:17you tweeted about Brexit, because I tell you,
0:41:17 > 0:41:20when our neighbours are being blown up by terrorists,
0:41:20 > 0:41:23we should stand in solidarity with them, we should not run away.
0:41:23 > 0:41:26Because we are stronger by doing so together.
0:41:26 > 0:41:28APPLAUSE
0:41:28 > 0:41:30Sorry, what did she tweet? What did she tweet?
0:41:30 > 0:41:32You made a reference to Brexit
0:41:32 > 0:41:34in that rather infamous tweet, Allison, didn't you?
0:41:34 > 0:41:37- Yes, you did. - I think that when we have...
0:41:37 > 0:41:40Other countries have very weak security.
0:41:40 > 0:41:43What happens is that people from those countries,
0:41:43 > 0:41:46because they are in the EU, can come to our country.
0:41:46 > 0:41:49What did you say in the tweet, sorry, for those who don't know?
0:41:49 > 0:41:54I said that Brussels, which is the capital of the EU, has just seen...
0:41:54 > 0:41:58This de facto capital of the EU is also this nest of jihadists.
0:41:58 > 0:41:59That's what I said.
0:41:59 > 0:42:01- We have also just seen recently... - MURMURING
0:42:01 > 0:42:05We are British people. We don't run and hide from stuff like this.
0:42:05 > 0:42:07We didn't in the '30s, we're not going to now.
0:42:07 > 0:42:10We should stand shoulder to shoulder with the Belgians and the French.
0:42:10 > 0:42:13Recently, we have found out that two of the ringleaders
0:42:13 > 0:42:16of the Paris bombing and the Brussels atrocities
0:42:16 > 0:42:17had come to the West Midlands
0:42:17 > 0:42:20and had come through Kent, I think, actually.
0:42:20 > 0:42:23- So we are not safe about this. - So Brexit would make us safer?
0:42:23 > 0:42:26- Brexit would make us safer, yes. Absolutely.- How? How?
0:42:26 > 0:42:29- How?- How?- Because they wouldn't have one of these, Hilary.
0:42:29 > 0:42:31They wouldn't have a European Union passport
0:42:31 > 0:42:34and be able to travel freely - that's the point.
0:42:34 > 0:42:36- What makes us safer... - That's the point.
0:42:36 > 0:42:39What makes us safer is cooperating with our neighbours
0:42:39 > 0:42:41to exchange information...
0:42:41 > 0:42:43to support our security services and the police.
0:42:43 > 0:42:46- That's what will make us safer. - OK...- Not running away.
0:42:46 > 0:42:48Let's hear from some more members of our lively audience.
0:42:48 > 0:42:51You, sir, with spectacles on there. That's you, yes.
0:42:51 > 0:42:54Just on this point of the 350 million figure.
0:42:54 > 0:42:57The real, I think, problem that's been covered up there
0:42:57 > 0:43:00is, actually, that we can't put that money back into the NHS
0:43:00 > 0:43:03- or anywhere else straight away, because...- Yeah, exactly.
0:43:03 > 0:43:05Well, no, actually. You'd lose...
0:43:05 > 0:43:08That money is offset by what you'd lose in GDP
0:43:08 > 0:43:11and what you'd lose in tax returns from immigration.
0:43:11 > 0:43:14So, actually, the gain you get is offset by what you do if you leave.
0:43:14 > 0:43:18- Can I...?- Briefly.- Just quickly, exactly what you said.
0:43:18 > 0:43:22The 350 million, they give us the half back of our money,
0:43:22 > 0:43:24but they decide where it goes.
0:43:24 > 0:43:26- So, for example...- They don't decide where the rebate goes.
0:43:26 > 0:43:29- They absolutely decide where it goes.- Where the rebate goes?
0:43:29 > 0:43:32- Yes, they...- They don't say where to spend it.- They do.
0:43:32 > 0:43:34- It goes to the Treasury.- It doesn't. - Really? What do they say?- No.
0:43:34 > 0:43:38They say, we'll give this grant to the CBI, this grant to here...
0:43:38 > 0:43:40- Hang on. Nigel... - Say, for example...
0:43:40 > 0:43:44Nigel, just a fact check here for us.
0:43:44 > 0:43:46- Is it true...? - I'll tell you what...- Yes!
0:43:46 > 0:43:48- Nigel, just do my bidding for once. - Yeah.
0:43:48 > 0:43:51Can you just fact check what she said?
0:43:51 > 0:43:52Is it true that the rebate,
0:43:52 > 0:43:55- that the EU tells us where to spend the rebate?- No.
0:43:55 > 0:43:57- I've never heard you say that. - No, it doesn't.
0:43:57 > 0:44:00But the rebate is up for constant discussion,
0:44:00 > 0:44:04and our rebate keeps being chipped away at as the price of other deals.
0:44:04 > 0:44:07Can we get to the truth of this? 350 million a week is wrong.
0:44:07 > 0:44:09It's higher than that. It's higher than that.
0:44:09 > 0:44:12- MURMURING - If you look...
0:44:12 > 0:44:15The trouble we've got here is, we're expressing things in billions
0:44:15 > 0:44:18and hundreds of millions, and people get confused.
0:44:18 > 0:44:23Fact, absolute fact, from the 2014 official yearly statistics,
0:44:23 > 0:44:25cross-checked with the EU,
0:44:25 > 0:44:29we pay £55 million a day as a contribution.
0:44:29 > 0:44:32Some of that, David, is the rebate, which doesn't go,
0:44:32 > 0:44:35but our gross contribution is 55 million a day.
0:44:35 > 0:44:37In rebates and money that comes back
0:44:37 > 0:44:40in terms of grants and agricultural support,
0:44:40 > 0:44:45£21 million a day gets knocked off that 55 million.
0:44:45 > 0:44:48I think maybe the easiest thing for us to do on the Brexit camp
0:44:48 > 0:44:50is just to talk about the net figure.
0:44:50 > 0:44:55And the net figure is £34 million every single day,
0:44:55 > 0:44:56£10 billion a year,
0:44:56 > 0:45:01and I say that is too much and we should spend that money
0:45:01 > 0:45:04here in our own country, on our own people.
0:45:04 > 0:45:08- Right...- Well...- Let's... I want to hear from you.
0:45:08 > 0:45:10I'm going to hear from some more members of our audience.
0:45:10 > 0:45:13Yes. Not too long, if you don't mind.
0:45:13 > 0:45:14That's a very small proportion
0:45:14 > 0:45:17of the total size of the British economy.
0:45:17 > 0:45:19I don't think we'd notice it, really.
0:45:19 > 0:45:21- And... - MURMURING
0:45:21 > 0:45:24Not to the extent that you seem to think that we would.
0:45:24 > 0:45:26It's still a very small proportion.
0:45:26 > 0:45:29And if you're right, Mr Farage, if you're right,
0:45:29 > 0:45:32why is it that every time it looks like
0:45:32 > 0:45:35the Leave campaign is edging ahead, that the pound is falling...
0:45:35 > 0:45:39- It's not. It's not. The pound has gone up.- It appears to be.
0:45:39 > 0:45:40The pound has gone up.
0:45:40 > 0:45:43Because the Remain campaign seems to strengthen, that's why.
0:45:43 > 0:45:45Can we please...? This is utter rubbish.
0:45:45 > 0:45:47The pound has been falling since July 2014.
0:45:47 > 0:45:50Because you may be taking us out of the EU.
0:45:50 > 0:45:53Since the end of March, when Brexit looked likely,
0:45:53 > 0:45:56- the pound has risen by 4%. - I don't think...
0:45:56 > 0:45:58- You were a trader once.- I was.
0:45:58 > 0:46:00Speculation on currency doesn't get you very far,
0:46:00 > 0:46:03- because it goes up and down. - Course it does.
0:46:03 > 0:46:05The woman there, and then I'll come to you.
0:46:05 > 0:46:06The woman there on the right.
0:46:06 > 0:46:10What is not credible is that people in the Leave campaign,
0:46:10 > 0:46:12like Nigel Farage and Chris Grayling,
0:46:12 > 0:46:14would invest that money in the NHS.
0:46:14 > 0:46:17Nigel Farage doesn't even believe in the NHS.
0:46:17 > 0:46:20Chris Grayling has prevailed over
0:46:20 > 0:46:25the most devastating so-called Andrew Lansley reform,
0:46:25 > 0:46:27which is basically cuts and...
0:46:27 > 0:46:29I've spent the last 15 years as a Member of Parliament
0:46:29 > 0:46:33campaigning to support my local NHS, and I will carry on doing so.
0:46:33 > 0:46:35But Nigel wants an insurance-based system.
0:46:35 > 0:46:39- Hilary, the point is...- You do. You do want an insurance-based system.
0:46:39 > 0:46:41- You do. - Do you know what I'd like to do?
0:46:41 > 0:46:43Do you know what I'd like to do with the ten billion?
0:46:43 > 0:46:45I would like that ten billion to be spent
0:46:45 > 0:46:47helping the communities in Britain
0:46:47 > 0:46:50that your government damaged so badly by opening up the doors
0:46:50 > 0:46:54to eight and then ten former communist countries.
0:46:54 > 0:46:56And what people need...
0:46:56 > 0:46:58What people need, Hilary, are schools, hospitals, GPs.
0:46:58 > 0:47:01- That's what they need.- All right... - I just want to say something.
0:47:01 > 0:47:04- Silence for Eddie Izzard again. - The Governor of the Bank of England
0:47:04 > 0:47:06says we'll most probably go into recession.
0:47:06 > 0:47:09The IFS, the OECD, the World Trade Organisation...
0:47:09 > 0:47:12Barack Obama says don't leave. Hillary Clinton backs him up.
0:47:12 > 0:47:13LAUGHTER
0:47:13 > 0:47:16And Donald Trump is the only one on their side,
0:47:16 > 0:47:18and he is to the right of Attila the Hun.
0:47:18 > 0:47:21That is not someone that you should be following.
0:47:21 > 0:47:24Donald Trump is the only one... You don't hear this economic argument.
0:47:24 > 0:47:26They're just talking about immigration.
0:47:26 > 0:47:29- No, we're not.- Here, you're not, but normally you are.
0:47:29 > 0:47:31You at the back.
0:47:31 > 0:47:35The question was about Sarah Wollaston changing her mind.
0:47:35 > 0:47:38It's rather depressing that she changed her decision
0:47:38 > 0:47:41because of the way the campaign was being run
0:47:41 > 0:47:45and not on the issues themselves, or that was how it came over.
0:47:46 > 0:47:48Yes, all right.
0:47:48 > 0:47:51And you, sir, there. The man there in the blue shirt. Yes.
0:47:51 > 0:47:54And then the woman in front of you after you. Yes.
0:47:54 > 0:47:56Bald-headed and blue shirt. Yeah.
0:47:56 > 0:48:00Nothing against you. Just hard to identify you.
0:48:00 > 0:48:02Separated at birth.
0:48:02 > 0:48:05In some regards, it doesn't matter what Nigel thinks,
0:48:05 > 0:48:08because Nigel's not elected,
0:48:08 > 0:48:10and with respect to Allison,
0:48:10 > 0:48:13if I don't want to agree with her views,
0:48:13 > 0:48:14I don't have to buy the Telegraph.
0:48:14 > 0:48:17If I disagree with Eddie's views, I can turn him off.
0:48:17 > 0:48:20But what, for me, is the crux of the matter is sovereignty,
0:48:20 > 0:48:23and the two elected ones...
0:48:23 > 0:48:26And there's things about both of you I dislike, I'll be quite honest.
0:48:26 > 0:48:30But if I dislike you enough, I can vote you out.
0:48:30 > 0:48:31Here, here.
0:48:31 > 0:48:36I can't have the same effect with a European set-up.
0:48:36 > 0:48:41So if our laws are being made in Westminster, I can get rid of you.
0:48:42 > 0:48:45You can vote Nigel out. You CAN vote Nigel out.
0:48:45 > 0:48:47You can vote me out of a job by voting for Brexit.
0:48:47 > 0:48:50I'm the turkey that'll vote for Christmas.
0:48:50 > 0:48:54And the... And the woman in front of you. The woman in front of you.
0:48:54 > 0:48:59My problem with the Brexit campaign is not so much the figures.
0:48:59 > 0:49:02I think figures can be manipulated by either side.
0:49:02 > 0:49:03I think the problem is,
0:49:03 > 0:49:07and it's the same with the Remain campaign to an extent,
0:49:07 > 0:49:10it's all if - if we come out, this might happen.
0:49:10 > 0:49:15Well, I, like the lady at the front, am also not decided,
0:49:15 > 0:49:20and I am swayed by some of the Leave arguments,
0:49:20 > 0:49:24but I still don't really know what will happen if we do leave.
0:49:24 > 0:49:27What's your...? What's your hesitation about it?
0:49:27 > 0:49:30Is it about whether immigration would be better controlled?
0:49:30 > 0:49:34- Is it about the economy?- I think... - Whether there'd be a recession?
0:49:34 > 0:49:37I think the biggest one is about the economy,
0:49:37 > 0:49:39and all the Remain campaigners say
0:49:39 > 0:49:41if we stay in, the economy will be better,
0:49:41 > 0:49:44and all the Leave, obviously, say the opposite.
0:49:44 > 0:49:47But which one do you believe, and what figures do you believe?
0:49:47 > 0:49:49ALL TALK AT ONCE Listen...
0:49:49 > 0:49:52- Listen to her. She's made her point.- Actually...
0:49:52 > 0:49:55No, no, no, no. Nigel, no. You've all made your point several times.
0:49:55 > 0:49:57We take your point, hear what you said.
0:49:57 > 0:50:00I want to take another question. We've only got eight minutes left.
0:50:00 > 0:50:02Belinda Walker, and this is relevant to what was being said
0:50:02 > 0:50:04by two former Prime Ministers,
0:50:04 > 0:50:07John Major and Tony Blair, today in Belfast.
0:50:07 > 0:50:09- Belinda Walker, let's just have your question.- Yes.
0:50:09 > 0:50:12Will an unintended consequence of Brexit
0:50:12 > 0:50:15be the break-up of the United Kingdom?
0:50:15 > 0:50:18Will an unintended consequence of Brexit be the break-up of the UK?
0:50:18 > 0:50:20- Eddie Izzard, you start on this. - Yes, I think so.
0:50:20 > 0:50:24Nicola Sturgeon said she wouldn't immediately do a referendum...
0:50:24 > 0:50:28I was up there, I was campaigning. I said, "Please don't go."
0:50:28 > 0:50:30I got a lot of hatred for it, but I said, "Please don't go."
0:50:30 > 0:50:34They're very positive on Europe, so if there is an exit,
0:50:34 > 0:50:36they will work out their time and then they will leave.
0:50:36 > 0:50:38Wales could do that as well,
0:50:38 > 0:50:40and then the north of England could split up.
0:50:40 > 0:50:41There's no logic...
0:50:41 > 0:50:44If you think about the logic... of the direction of Brexit,
0:50:44 > 0:50:47We've got to go forward and try and make Europe work.
0:50:47 > 0:50:49We've got to stay in to try and make it work.
0:50:49 > 0:50:51It's for the future of humanity.
0:50:51 > 0:50:54If you exit, you cut it down, then Scotland could well go,
0:50:54 > 0:50:57and then Wales might be there, but then the north of England...
0:50:57 > 0:50:58Where do you go in the future?
0:50:58 > 0:51:01There's no future except getting smaller and the Little Englander.
0:51:01 > 0:51:04The Nigel Farage Little Englander, ex-immigrant, coming in...
0:51:04 > 0:51:07- I don't know where that goes. - All right, Chris Grayling.
0:51:07 > 0:51:09APPLAUSE
0:51:10 > 0:51:13- Little Englander.- The first thing... - Are you a Little Englander?
0:51:13 > 0:51:18- WOMAN:- I vote for exit, and I'm not a Little Englander.
0:51:18 > 0:51:23And my... And my ancestry goes back 700 years in this country.
0:51:23 > 0:51:26- Well, so does mine. - Well, there you go, then.
0:51:26 > 0:51:30Why aren't you more insistent on your sovereignty, then?
0:51:30 > 0:51:32No, but the point is...
0:51:32 > 0:51:35We are part of a club to make the whole economy better.
0:51:35 > 0:51:38- Our economy is better if we're inside.- No, it isn't.
0:51:38 > 0:51:41- Yes, it is. - No, it isn't.- Yes, it is.
0:51:41 > 0:51:44All right, all right. LAUGHTER
0:51:44 > 0:51:48Try... Try to avoid pantomime here.
0:51:48 > 0:51:51- Chris Grayling.- The first thing to say is, the Scottish people -
0:51:51 > 0:51:53thank goodness, well done for campaigning, Eddie -
0:51:53 > 0:51:56voted to stay part of the United Kingdom.
0:51:56 > 0:51:59We are one United Kingdom, we vote as one United Kingdom.
0:51:59 > 0:52:01Every single citizen, from Stornoway to St Ives,
0:52:01 > 0:52:04will vote with the same weight
0:52:04 > 0:52:06about all of our futures in or out of the European Union.
0:52:06 > 0:52:09I say thank goodness Scotland didn't vote for independence.
0:52:09 > 0:52:11If it had done, it would have been in the middle
0:52:11 > 0:52:13of the most profound financial crisis now
0:52:13 > 0:52:16because of the collapse in the oil price.
0:52:16 > 0:52:19And at the Scottish elections, the nationalists went down
0:52:19 > 0:52:20and the most recent poll showed
0:52:20 > 0:52:23that support for nationalism in Scotland has gone down.
0:52:23 > 0:52:26We are one country, I'm proud to be one country.
0:52:26 > 0:52:28We should carry on being one country.
0:52:28 > 0:52:31And it's just worth touching briefly on the Northern Ireland point.
0:52:31 > 0:52:33We've had a common travel area
0:52:33 > 0:52:37with Northern Ireland and the Republic of Ireland since 1923.
0:52:37 > 0:52:40Those who suggest that, somehow, that is going to disappear
0:52:40 > 0:52:43because we leave the European Union are simply not right.
0:52:43 > 0:52:45Our relationship with the Republic of Ireland
0:52:45 > 0:52:47is very different to any other EU country.
0:52:47 > 0:52:49It will carry on as it did before.
0:52:49 > 0:52:53All right, well, I know you're not meant to be doing blue on blue,
0:52:53 > 0:52:56but David Cameron, the Prime Minister, is worried that Brexit
0:52:56 > 0:53:00would lead to a second Scottish independence referendum.
0:53:00 > 0:53:03John Major says, "The plain uncomfortable truth," I quote him,
0:53:03 > 0:53:05"is that the unity of the United Kingdom itself
0:53:05 > 0:53:07"is on the ballot paper in two weeks' time."
0:53:07 > 0:53:10- They're both wrong?- I'm afraid I think they are both wrong,
0:53:10 > 0:53:12and the most recent opinion polling in Scotland,
0:53:12 > 0:53:15during this campaign, in the last few days,
0:53:15 > 0:53:18at a time when the Brexit campaign has been gaining momentum,
0:53:18 > 0:53:21has shown, actually, a fall in support for Scottish separation.
0:53:21 > 0:53:23All right, Allison Pearson.
0:53:23 > 0:53:26Going back to what Chris said, I mean,
0:53:26 > 0:53:29the simple economics of it is cos the oil price has fallen,
0:53:29 > 0:53:31Scotland can't afford to leave.
0:53:31 > 0:53:35I'm Welsh, and I think that Wales might be with Brexit.
0:53:35 > 0:53:37Just want to quickly come back...
0:53:37 > 0:53:41- Wales might be with Brexit?- I think Wales might be with Brexit, yes.
0:53:41 > 0:53:42And Scotland, you think...
0:53:42 > 0:53:44- WOMAN:- I'm Welsh, and I don't think they will.
0:53:44 > 0:53:47APPLAUSE
0:53:48 > 0:53:51Say why. Say why. We'd better hear your views.
0:53:51 > 0:53:54- You think Wales will vote to remain? - I just think that, you know,
0:53:54 > 0:53:57we've been isolated for so long, and we're part of Europe,
0:53:57 > 0:54:01and I think we're better together. we're stronger together.
0:54:01 > 0:54:03All this better together.
0:54:03 > 0:54:06Eddie's going on about this lovely harmonious thing.
0:54:06 > 0:54:08Is that not what we're trying to get to?
0:54:08 > 0:54:11- You may not be, but I'm trying to do it.- It's not happening...
0:54:11 > 0:54:14We've got to try harder, not run away from it.
0:54:14 > 0:54:17- Running and hiding won't work. - Hilary Benn, your go.
0:54:17 > 0:54:19Well, look...
0:54:19 > 0:54:22- It is...- Can I just say, Chris Grayling's a hypocrite
0:54:22 > 0:54:25to say, "I didn't want Scotland to be on their own,"
0:54:25 > 0:54:28but yet he wants the UK to be on their own.
0:54:28 > 0:54:30All right. Hilary Benn.
0:54:30 > 0:54:31Look...
0:54:31 > 0:54:35The truth about the European Union is, it is an astonishing achievement
0:54:35 > 0:54:37given what we used to do to each other.
0:54:37 > 0:54:39You only have to visit the graveyards
0:54:39 > 0:54:41of the First and Second World Wars
0:54:41 > 0:54:43to know how important this creation is.
0:54:43 > 0:54:44And, yes, it's difficult,
0:54:44 > 0:54:47and sometimes we don't get everything that we want.
0:54:47 > 0:54:49But it's a lot better than fighting each other.
0:54:49 > 0:54:50To answer your question directly,
0:54:50 > 0:54:53it could well lead to the break-up of the United Kingdom.
0:54:53 > 0:54:56Now, we just spent the time in that referendum
0:54:56 > 0:55:01arguing, in Scotland, we are better and stronger together.
0:55:01 > 0:55:04And now we're on a panel with three people saying, you know what?
0:55:04 > 0:55:07We're better and stronger not together, breaking up.
0:55:07 > 0:55:09And that is not the right approach to take.
0:55:09 > 0:55:12And the nightmare - we leave the European Union,
0:55:12 > 0:55:14the United Kingdom breaks up,
0:55:14 > 0:55:17heaven forbid Boris Johnson becomes Prime Minister,
0:55:17 > 0:55:19President Le Pen wins in France, and Donald Trump in America.
0:55:19 > 0:55:22Although I think that won't happen, because people will be wise enough
0:55:22 > 0:55:24to vote for a candidate called Hillary.
0:55:30 > 0:55:32Surely the key point is that we live
0:55:32 > 0:55:35and we are citizens of a country called the United kingdom.
0:55:35 > 0:55:39We do not live in a country, yet, called the European Union.
0:55:39 > 0:55:42It may well be that it becomes something like a country,
0:55:42 > 0:55:44but we are, within the United Kingdom, one single nation.
0:55:44 > 0:55:46We used to be separate nations and we came together.
0:55:46 > 0:55:49That's what the world's got to be about.
0:55:49 > 0:55:51- We've got to head in that direction. - Nigel Farage.
0:55:51 > 0:55:54Belinda Walker asked, will an unintended consequence,
0:55:54 > 0:55:57or maybe an intended consequence, be the break-up of the UK?
0:55:57 > 0:56:00I don't believe it will, although I have to say, as a Brexiteer,
0:56:00 > 0:56:01to see Tony Blair back in the fray,
0:56:01 > 0:56:03telling us what we should think and what we should do,
0:56:03 > 0:56:05yippee, bring it on!
0:56:05 > 0:56:10Let's see more of Blair, because his credibility is just about zero.
0:56:10 > 0:56:14The idea that Wales somehow is in love with the European Union,
0:56:14 > 0:56:15you're all in for a shock.
0:56:15 > 0:56:19Wales is every bit as Euro-sceptic as the rest of England.
0:56:19 > 0:56:22And I also think in Scotland, you'll be very surprised.
0:56:22 > 0:56:26This idea that Scotland is massively pro-EU and England's anti-EU,
0:56:26 > 0:56:31what you'll find is the results won't actually be that different.
0:56:31 > 0:56:37And the idea that Nicola Sturgeon is going to hold a second referendum
0:56:37 > 0:56:39on separation from the United Kingdom
0:56:39 > 0:56:42with oil at below 50 bucks a barrel,
0:56:42 > 0:56:44you may as well go and drink moonshine -
0:56:44 > 0:56:46it ain't going to happen.
0:56:46 > 0:56:47OK.
0:56:47 > 0:56:49Can I...?
0:56:49 > 0:56:52We've got... We're just running out of time.
0:56:52 > 0:56:53She's going to wait her time.
0:56:53 > 0:56:55But that is a huge part,
0:56:55 > 0:56:58and they get 245 million in Wales, so that's why Wales should stay.
0:56:58 > 0:57:01- 100 million goes into... - What about from us?
0:57:01 > 0:57:02All right, all right, all right.
0:57:02 > 0:57:05That's a positive thing they get from the European Union.
0:57:05 > 0:57:07There's a woman in the second row who has her hand up.
0:57:07 > 0:57:09Just before the end, I'll give you...
0:57:09 > 0:57:12You argue with each other, but let's hear from her.
0:57:12 > 0:57:15- Just ten seconds.- Thank you.- Very briefly.- Thank you. Very briefly.
0:57:15 > 0:57:18Eddie, you've been banging on at Nigel about him being an immigrant.
0:57:18 > 0:57:20Excuse me, Nigel is an Englishman.
0:57:20 > 0:57:23- He's an English gentleman. - He comes from an immigrant family.
0:57:23 > 0:57:27- He embraces the English culture... - His family came through...
0:57:27 > 0:57:31I said we'd give her ten seconds. You've nearly had your time.
0:57:31 > 0:57:34- Sorry, can I not say any more? - I told you... Yeah.
0:57:34 > 0:57:38- I can do a bit more?- Not much more. - No, no.- Five seconds more.
0:57:38 > 0:57:42- It's about the English culture. What's happening...- British.
0:57:42 > 0:57:44The British, sorry, all right, the British culture.
0:57:44 > 0:57:47But do you mean English or British?
0:57:47 > 0:57:49UK culture, as we know it, as it is now,
0:57:49 > 0:57:52if we allow ourselves to just keep being invaded,
0:57:52 > 0:57:54we are getting diluted.
0:57:54 > 0:57:57All right, fine. We've got to stop. I'm sorry.
0:57:57 > 0:58:00I apologise to all of you who have your hands up,
0:58:00 > 0:58:04and I'm sorry, sir, not to be able to bring you in.
0:58:04 > 0:58:06We only have an hour, an hour's up.
0:58:06 > 0:58:08We have more programmes, though,
0:58:08 > 0:58:11because we're in Nottingham next Wednesday
0:58:11 > 0:58:16for a special programme with Michael Gove and a Question Time audience.
0:58:16 > 0:58:20We have David Cameron in Milton Keynes on Sunday next,
0:58:20 > 0:58:21with an audience.
0:58:21 > 0:58:24Not this coming Sunday, the Sunday after.
0:58:24 > 0:58:28And those programmes are at 6.45 on BBC One,
0:58:28 > 0:58:29not at our usual time.
0:58:29 > 0:58:31And in between that, next Thursday,
0:58:31 > 0:58:33if you can keep up with this, which I barely can,
0:58:33 > 0:58:36our regular time after the Ten O'Clock News,
0:58:36 > 0:58:39we've got a Question Time coming from York - that's next Thursday.
0:58:39 > 0:58:42And in the far, far, far distant future, after the referendum,
0:58:42 > 0:58:44we're going to be in Preston on June 30th.
0:58:44 > 0:58:47If you'd like to come to any of those audiences,
0:58:47 > 0:58:52the website address is there, the telephone number...
0:58:52 > 0:58:55If you're listening on Five Live, as you know,
0:58:55 > 0:58:58the debate continues on Question Time Extra Time,
0:58:58 > 0:58:59and no doubt it'll be very lively.
0:58:59 > 0:59:03But here the debate comes to an end. Sadly, for most of us.
0:59:03 > 0:59:05My thanks to our panel
0:59:05 > 0:59:07and to all of you who came here to Folkestone to take part.
0:59:07 > 0:59:11So until next Wednesday, at 6.45, with Michael Gove,
0:59:11 > 0:59:13from Question Time, goodnight.