0:00:48 > 0:00:51With just under a week to go until the referendum,
0:00:51 > 0:00:54welcome to this special edition of Question Time.
0:00:54 > 0:00:56For the next 45 minutes, Michael Gove,
0:00:56 > 0:01:00one of the leaders of the campaign to leave the European Union,
0:01:00 > 0:01:03is going to face questions from our audience here in Nottingham.
0:01:11 > 0:01:14Now, tonight, our audience is divided evenly between those wanting
0:01:14 > 0:01:17to leave and those wanting to remain,
0:01:17 > 0:01:19with some people whose minds aren't made up.
0:01:19 > 0:01:21As always on Question Time,
0:01:21 > 0:01:25this programme belongs to this audience and they can ask what
0:01:25 > 0:01:29they like and Michael Gove hasn't seen the questions in advance.
0:01:29 > 0:01:31And if you're watching, you can
0:01:31 > 0:01:33use facebook and Twitter to comment
0:01:33 > 0:01:34on what you hear here
0:01:34 > 0:01:36and you can use our hashtag, #bbcqt,
0:01:36 > 0:01:38or you can text 83981,
0:01:38 > 0:01:40push the red button to see what
0:01:40 > 0:01:41other people are saying.
0:01:41 > 0:01:45So without any further ado, to argue the case for leaving the EU,
0:01:45 > 0:01:48please welcome the Justice Secretary, Michael Gove.
0:01:48 > 0:01:51APPLAUSE
0:02:03 > 0:02:07So, we'll take our first question, please.
0:02:07 > 0:02:10Hi. If we do vote to leave the EU,
0:02:10 > 0:02:15will you be supporting George Osborne's punishment budget?
0:02:15 > 0:02:18This is the budget that George Osborne announced today,
0:02:18 > 0:02:22including increases in taxation of 2p, the higher rate by three,
0:02:22 > 0:02:25cuts in spending, alcohol and fuel going up.
0:02:25 > 0:02:29Will you be supporting all that if the vote is Brexit?
0:02:29 > 0:02:33No, because I think that what we've heard from the Remain
0:02:33 > 0:02:37campaign throughout this whole referendum have been dire
0:02:37 > 0:02:41warnings of the terrible consequences of the British
0:02:41 > 0:02:44people just taking control of our own destiny.
0:02:44 > 0:02:46And the truth is that, if we vote to leave,
0:02:46 > 0:02:49we will be in an economically stronger position.
0:02:49 > 0:02:52We will be able to take back some of the money that we currently
0:02:52 > 0:02:56give to the European Union and we could invest it in our priorities.
0:02:56 > 0:02:59More than that, we can start negotiating new trade deals with
0:02:59 > 0:03:02other countries, like India, China, and Japan,
0:03:02 > 0:03:06which can create hundreds of thousands of jobs in this country.
0:03:06 > 0:03:09So leaving the European Union is actually a win-win
0:03:09 > 0:03:12economically for this country.
0:03:12 > 0:03:15The real risk is staying in the European Union.
0:03:15 > 0:03:18We know that the EU has the lowest growth of any
0:03:18 > 0:03:21continent in the world, apart from Antarctica,
0:03:21 > 0:03:25and we also know that the misery inflicted by the single
0:03:25 > 0:03:28currency means that, if we stay in the European Union,
0:03:28 > 0:03:31we will be on the hook for paying more money in order to
0:03:31 > 0:03:34support the poor people of Greece, Italy, Spain,
0:03:34 > 0:03:37and Portugal, who've suffered as a result of the single currency.
0:03:37 > 0:03:39But George Osborne wasn't talking out all that.
0:03:39 > 0:03:42George Osborne was talking about what the
0:03:42 > 0:03:45Institute for Fiscal Studies, a body that you respect
0:03:45 > 0:03:49and have quoted yourself as being an authority.
0:03:49 > 0:03:54They say there's going to be a hole of £30 billion a year
0:03:54 > 0:03:56immediately after Brexit -
0:03:56 > 0:04:00that's why he has to either cut spending or increase taxation.
0:04:00 > 0:04:01David, you are wrong.
0:04:01 > 0:04:04They didn't say there would be a cut like that immediately after Brexit.
0:04:04 > 0:04:07There is no need for an emergency budget. The guy...
0:04:07 > 0:04:09Well, why did they produce this thing?
0:04:09 > 0:04:11No, they produced their report
0:04:11 > 0:04:14and it wasn't about what would happen immediately after.
0:04:14 > 0:04:16The guy who leads the In campaign, Stuart Rose,
0:04:16 > 0:04:19was asked by the House of Commons Treasury Committee what would happen
0:04:19 > 0:04:22if we left the European Union and he said the day after
0:04:22 > 0:04:26there would be no difference, no cost economically.
0:04:26 > 0:04:31The truth is that there are any number of business authorities
0:04:31 > 0:04:35who are very clear that Britain can succeed outside the European Union.
0:04:35 > 0:04:38In fact, Britain will be in a stronger economic position
0:04:38 > 0:04:40outside the European Union.
0:04:40 > 0:04:43People like Sir James Dyson or Anthony Bamford, the head of JCB,
0:04:43 > 0:04:46they are the people who make and manufacture goods
0:04:46 > 0:04:48in this country, who provide jobs.
0:04:48 > 0:04:52They have confidence in the ingenuity, in the talent,
0:04:52 > 0:04:54in the generosity of spirit of the British people.
0:04:54 > 0:04:58I think it's a shame that the Remain camp are talking this country down.
0:04:58 > 0:05:01APPLAUSE
0:05:06 > 0:05:08So... Yes, you, sir.
0:05:08 > 0:05:11How can you actually say that you believe we're going to be better
0:05:11 > 0:05:15off when the majority of experts are telling you completely different?
0:05:15 > 0:05:17- Well... - APPLAUSE
0:05:19 > 0:05:23There are some organisations that do take a different view, but these
0:05:23 > 0:05:27are organisations that were wrong in the past about the single currency.
0:05:27 > 0:05:30Many of these organisations said that we should join the euro
0:05:30 > 0:05:32and that, if we didn't join the euro,
0:05:32 > 0:05:35our economy would be devastated.
0:05:35 > 0:05:37They were wrong then and they are wrong now.
0:05:37 > 0:05:40The Institute for Fiscal Studies was not one of those,
0:05:40 > 0:05:42they didn't support the euro, they didn't support the ERM,
0:05:42 > 0:05:44and you cited them yourself
0:05:44 > 0:05:47when you were Secretary of State for Education as a reliable body.
0:05:47 > 0:05:50They're the ones on which this budget that was produced
0:05:50 > 0:05:53today by George Osborne is based. Forget the others.
0:05:53 > 0:05:56Well, David, the Institute for Fiscal Studies did produce a report
0:05:56 > 0:05:59and, in that report, one of the things that they
0:05:59 > 0:06:01also said is that, if we vote to leave,
0:06:01 > 0:06:04then we have billions of pounds of money, which we currently
0:06:04 > 0:06:08give to the European Union, which we can spend on our own priorities.
0:06:08 > 0:06:10And critically, I think,
0:06:10 > 0:06:13when we're thinking about the future of our economy,
0:06:13 > 0:06:16the people we should really listen to are those who create jobs
0:06:16 > 0:06:20and those who provide opportunity for the future, and it's clear to me
0:06:20 > 0:06:23that manufacturers, entrepreneurs, industrialists,
0:06:23 > 0:06:26they have confidence in the British people, why don't the Remain camp?
0:06:26 > 0:06:28APPLAUSE
0:06:31 > 0:06:35You said before that we could reinvest it into maybe public
0:06:35 > 0:06:38services, but how can I trust you, as someone who co-authored a book,
0:06:38 > 0:06:42which put forward an argument for an insurance-based health system,
0:06:42 > 0:06:45and other prominent Brexiteers have done the same thing?
0:06:45 > 0:06:47How can I trust you to even invest it?
0:06:47 > 0:06:49Your government has completely been cutting the NHS
0:06:49 > 0:06:53and other public services, so why now have you changed your mind?
0:06:53 > 0:06:55APPLAUSE
0:06:59 > 0:07:02I stand on my record as a government minister in education
0:07:02 > 0:07:04who ensured that we spent more,
0:07:04 > 0:07:06particularly on the very poorest in our schools,
0:07:06 > 0:07:09and I support our National Health Service.
0:07:09 > 0:07:12It's been good to me and to my family and I believe
0:07:12 > 0:07:15that, if we vote to leave, we can give the National Health Service
0:07:15 > 0:07:20£100 million additional every week.
0:07:20 > 0:07:24I think that the institutions that we love in this country,
0:07:24 > 0:07:26which are an expression of Britishness,
0:07:26 > 0:07:28deserve to be supported and defended.
0:07:28 > 0:07:32No other country has a health service like the National Health Service.
0:07:32 > 0:07:36- But John Major said you wanted to privatise...- Free at the point of need. Just one second, David.
0:07:36 > 0:07:39Free at the point of need, irrespective of the ability to pay.
0:07:39 > 0:07:42I cherish it because it is a British institution.
0:07:42 > 0:07:45I want to invest in it, I want to support it and
0:07:45 > 0:07:49if we vote to leave, we can give it the cash injection that it needs.
0:07:49 > 0:07:53APPLAUSE
0:07:53 > 0:07:55To be fair to the questioner, you've changed your mind
0:07:55 > 0:07:59cos, ten years ago, you were writing, saying it either had to be an insurance policy or paid...
0:07:59 > 0:08:02As John Major pointed out, Michael Gove wanted to privatise it.
0:08:02 > 0:08:04The book is there. You co-authored the book.
0:08:04 > 0:08:08- Now...that's what she is referring to.- No, I...- I trusted you. Why should I trust you?
0:08:08 > 0:08:10Why should people believe you're in favour of it?
0:08:10 > 0:08:12Because of my conviction.
0:08:12 > 0:08:16You mentioned this book - it was written by a group of people.
0:08:16 > 0:08:19I didn't write anything in it about the National Health Service
0:08:19 > 0:08:21because my commitment to the National Health Service -
0:08:21 > 0:08:23there when my children were born,
0:08:23 > 0:08:25there when my wife needed it - is absolute.
0:08:25 > 0:08:28The one thing that you can trust in this debate, though,
0:08:28 > 0:08:30is the instincts of the British people.
0:08:30 > 0:08:32If we vote to leave and we take back control,
0:08:32 > 0:08:36the amount of additional money that we have as a result of that,
0:08:36 > 0:08:38the hundreds of millions of pounds,
0:08:38 > 0:08:41will be spent by us on our priorities.
0:08:41 > 0:08:44I don't know a higher priority that the British public have
0:08:44 > 0:08:46than the National Health Service.
0:08:46 > 0:08:50So if we vote to leave, you can ensure that politicians
0:08:50 > 0:08:53follow your instructions to spend on the NHS.
0:08:53 > 0:08:57At the moment, the money that we hand over to the European Union
0:08:57 > 0:09:00is spent by people who are not emotionally invested in this country.
0:09:00 > 0:09:02They don't care about its future.
0:09:02 > 0:09:04They're people whose names we don't know,
0:09:04 > 0:09:07whom we never chose and whom we cannot kick out.
0:09:07 > 0:09:11I think what we should do on June 23 is send a signal to them -
0:09:11 > 0:09:13no more unaccountable rule.
0:09:13 > 0:09:16Instead, let's take back control and restore our democracy.
0:09:16 > 0:09:18OK.
0:09:18 > 0:09:21APPLAUSE
0:09:23 > 0:09:27Can we just stick with this Osborne budget for a moment?
0:09:27 > 0:09:30Is that what you want to ask about? Yes.
0:09:30 > 0:09:33On the subject, I think, if you say your government values
0:09:33 > 0:09:36the NHS so much, where was your support for junior doctors?
0:09:36 > 0:09:41APPLAUSE
0:09:41 > 0:09:44I appreciate the difficult position that the Health Secretary
0:09:44 > 0:09:48has been in because of the difficult funding constraints that operated.
0:09:48 > 0:09:50But whether you're a junior doctor,
0:09:50 > 0:09:54a trainee nurse, an experienced consultant, or a patient,
0:09:54 > 0:09:57our National Health Service will be stronger
0:09:57 > 0:09:58if we leave the European Union
0:09:58 > 0:10:00and one of the reasons it will be stronger
0:10:00 > 0:10:03is that we can invest additional cash in it.
0:10:03 > 0:10:05There's another reason as well.
0:10:05 > 0:10:07At the moment, all our public services,
0:10:07 > 0:10:10the NHS and education, are under strain
0:10:10 > 0:10:15as a result of unlimited free movement from the European Union.
0:10:15 > 0:10:17If we vote to leave, we can take back control and we can
0:10:17 > 0:10:22ensure that our NHS is under less strain and receives more money and
0:10:22 > 0:10:26that would be a vote of confidence in a great British institution.
0:10:26 > 0:10:29Let's have a question from Josephine Yussaf, please.
0:10:29 > 0:10:31Everything in life has risks.
0:10:31 > 0:10:36Being honest, what do you feel are the risks if Britain leaves the EU?
0:10:36 > 0:10:39Well, you're absolutely right that everything in life has risks
0:10:39 > 0:10:42and I think that there could be risks and dangers
0:10:42 > 0:10:45ahead in the global economy. And there are risks and dangers,
0:10:45 > 0:10:49we know, as a result of what Vladimir Putin wants to do in Russia
0:10:49 > 0:10:51and also what Isis and other terrorists
0:10:51 > 0:10:53want to do in the Middle East.
0:10:53 > 0:10:56But I think that we would be better able to cope with those risks
0:10:56 > 0:10:58if we voted to leave the European Union.
0:10:58 > 0:11:02At the moment, the people who take decisions about our economy
0:11:02 > 0:11:06and our security are people whom we never elected
0:11:06 > 0:11:09and who don't have an emotional tie to this country.
0:11:09 > 0:11:12They don't care with the same passion that you do
0:11:12 > 0:11:15about what happens here. If we leave the European Union,
0:11:15 > 0:11:18- yes, there'll be bumps in the road, inevitably.- What will they be?
0:11:18 > 0:11:21- But we will be...- What will the bumps be?- We will be in a better...
0:11:21 > 0:11:23- Hang on.- ..position to deal with them.- Wait a moment,
0:11:23 > 0:11:25- her question was, were there risks or no risks?- Well...
0:11:25 > 0:11:28You can't get away with saying there'll be bumps in the road,
0:11:28 > 0:11:30if you're urging this country to vote to leave.
0:11:30 > 0:11:33- What bumps will they be?- The bumps that we face will be there
0:11:33 > 0:11:36irrespective of whether we leave the European Union or stay,
0:11:36 > 0:11:38- but we will be...- No, but she's talking about risks
0:11:38 > 0:11:41- as a result of leaving.- Well, quite...- When you say there'll be
0:11:41 > 0:11:43bumps in the road, you mean there'll be no downside for leaving,
0:11:43 > 0:11:45- is that your position? - My view is that,
0:11:45 > 0:11:47whatever happens in the future,
0:11:47 > 0:11:52we will be in a stronger position to deal with any crises that occur
0:11:52 > 0:11:54as a result of leaving the European Union.
0:11:54 > 0:11:56If someone says to you that in the future
0:11:56 > 0:11:58everything is going to be perfect,
0:11:58 > 0:12:01that it's going to be milk and honey, they're wrong.
0:12:01 > 0:12:05But, whatever the world throws at us, whatever the risks
0:12:05 > 0:12:09and challenges, I have confidence that the British people,
0:12:09 > 0:12:11their talent, their generosity of spirit,
0:12:11 > 0:12:13that will allow us to win through.
0:12:13 > 0:12:17And the British people will be liberated to deal with
0:12:17 > 0:12:19whatever risks there are in the future
0:12:19 > 0:12:22if we leave the European Union and we take back control.
0:12:22 > 0:12:23OK. You, sir.
0:12:23 > 0:12:25APPLAUSE
0:12:25 > 0:12:29But I think, Mr Gove, the overall problem which we have,
0:12:29 > 0:12:32the principal uncertainties which will face Britain
0:12:32 > 0:12:34going forward are economic.
0:12:34 > 0:12:37- Yes.- Ultimately, what are we going to do?
0:12:37 > 0:12:40We're going to lose our main trading partner in the EU?
0:12:40 > 0:12:42Are we going to actually then go into a model
0:12:42 > 0:12:44which is going to be a Swiss model?
0:12:44 > 0:12:45Is it going to be a Norwegian model?
0:12:45 > 0:12:47Is it going to be a Canadian model?
0:12:47 > 0:12:52All of these things in themselves actually will cost the UK more
0:12:52 > 0:12:56than the £350 million which you're saying you're going to be saving.
0:12:56 > 0:12:58It's absolutely ridiculous.
0:12:58 > 0:13:02We are wanting to A, lose autonomy,
0:13:02 > 0:13:06lose actually decision making,
0:13:06 > 0:13:08and actually we will probably be worse off.
0:13:08 > 0:13:12And in terms of essentially our position in a
0:13:12 > 0:13:15negotiating table, are you suggesting that
0:13:15 > 0:13:18a population of 1.3 billion people,
0:13:18 > 0:13:23a market in China, or basically a US, GDP,
0:13:23 > 0:13:25number one in the world, are actually going to be
0:13:25 > 0:13:30looking at Britain as a primary trading partner?
0:13:30 > 0:13:32I think, to be quite honest, you'd be off your rocker.
0:13:32 > 0:13:34All right, OK, you're off your rocker.
0:13:34 > 0:13:37APPLAUSE
0:13:37 > 0:13:39"You're off your rocker" were the last words -
0:13:39 > 0:13:40in case if you missed them.
0:13:40 > 0:13:42- You say the nicest things, sir(!) - Oh, of course.
0:13:42 > 0:13:46The truth is that Britain is the world's fifth largest economy
0:13:46 > 0:13:49and you mentioned trade. I'll just mention two things about trade.
0:13:49 > 0:13:53The first thing is that Germany and France sell more cars to us
0:13:53 > 0:13:56and more agricultural produce to us than we sell to them.
0:13:56 > 0:13:59A fifth of cars manufactured in Germany are sold here.
0:13:59 > 0:14:02The Germans wouldn't want to put up trade barriers because that would
0:14:02 > 0:14:05mean that German car workers would be out of a job,
0:14:05 > 0:14:08so I don't believe for a moment that the German Chancellor
0:14:08 > 0:14:13is going to punish her own car workers in order to prove a point.
0:14:13 > 0:14:14But there's a second thing as well.
0:14:14 > 0:14:17You talk about China - a huge country, yes.
0:14:17 > 0:14:19It doesn't have a trade deal with the European Union
0:14:19 > 0:14:21but it has a trade deal with Switzerland.
0:14:21 > 0:14:24It even has a trade deal with tiny Iceland,
0:14:24 > 0:14:27which is just a population of a few hundred thousand.
0:14:27 > 0:14:30If it can have a trade deal with a country
0:14:30 > 0:14:33which has a population smaller than Glasgow's,
0:14:33 > 0:14:34it can have a trade deal with us.
0:14:34 > 0:14:37And as long as we stay in the European Union,
0:14:37 > 0:14:40the people negotiating on our behalf aren't people
0:14:40 > 0:14:42who put Britain first -
0:14:42 > 0:14:47they're people who put the ideology of the EU ahead of everything else.
0:14:47 > 0:14:49I want our trade and our economic policy
0:14:49 > 0:14:53to be decided by people who are patriotic and who put Britain first.
0:14:53 > 0:14:58And by voting Leave, we can ensure a patriotic economic case is made.
0:14:58 > 0:15:00All right, I'll come to you and I'll come to you.
0:15:00 > 0:15:03APPLAUSE
0:15:03 > 0:15:05As you can see, Mr Gove,
0:15:05 > 0:15:07a lot of people have their hands up for questions,
0:15:07 > 0:15:08so if you can keep your answers
0:15:08 > 0:15:11so we can bring as many people in as possible that would be good.
0:15:11 > 0:15:13- Thanks, David. Yes?- Hi. You said about bumps in the road,
0:15:13 > 0:15:15but you didn't actually say any and I will tell you one.
0:15:15 > 0:15:20As a physicist, I am absolutely terrified of what will happen
0:15:20 > 0:15:23to the British science if we are to leave
0:15:23 > 0:15:26because in a current state, where universities are cutting back
0:15:26 > 0:15:31on most science funding, the EU is a life saver for physicists
0:15:31 > 0:15:33and other scientists out there.
0:15:33 > 0:15:34What am I going to do
0:15:34 > 0:15:38and what's everyone else going to do when we have no more funding?
0:15:38 > 0:15:41We, as Britain, are some...
0:15:41 > 0:15:43We have some of greatest scientists in the world,
0:15:43 > 0:15:47but that's just going to go to pot because we'll have nothing.
0:15:47 > 0:15:48- All right.- Well...
0:15:48 > 0:15:51APPLAUSE
0:15:53 > 0:15:54First thing I would say is
0:15:54 > 0:15:56that some of the most distinguished physicists I know,
0:15:56 > 0:15:59like Professor David Deutsch, think that we would be better off
0:15:59 > 0:16:00outside the European Union.
0:16:00 > 0:16:03The second thing that I would say is that all the money
0:16:03 > 0:16:06that currently goes to universities from the European Union
0:16:06 > 0:16:08is our money in the first place.
0:16:08 > 0:16:13It's the European Union spending our money on universities.
0:16:13 > 0:16:15If we leave, all that money will be safeguarded
0:16:15 > 0:16:17and, more than that,
0:16:17 > 0:16:21we will have control of an additional £10 billion
0:16:21 > 0:16:24which we can spend on our priorities.
0:16:24 > 0:16:26Now, there have been all sorts of things that have been said...
0:16:26 > 0:16:29- What...?- ..during the course of this debate about things
0:16:29 > 0:16:31that could go wrong if we vote to leave.
0:16:31 > 0:16:33But I don't believe in the scare stories
0:16:33 > 0:16:35put about by people like Donald Tusk,
0:16:35 > 0:16:37the President of the European Council,
0:16:37 > 0:16:38who says if we vote to leave,
0:16:38 > 0:16:41- Western civilisation will come to an end.- Can we come back...?
0:16:41 > 0:16:44- If we vote to leave...- Can we come back to the lady's point?
0:16:44 > 0:16:47- ..we'll be able to invest more in our public services.- Go on, briefly.
0:16:47 > 0:16:50But sciences already get more from the EU than we put in.
0:16:50 > 0:16:54Where's that extra £3 billion? And, by the way, billion?
0:16:54 > 0:16:56Is that a...? Which billion are you talking about when you talk
0:16:56 > 0:16:59about billions? Are you talking about a million million
0:16:59 > 0:17:02- or a thousand million? - All right, well...
0:17:02 > 0:17:03Just as a...
0:17:03 > 0:17:06Neither here nor there! But the point is that we get more out...
0:17:06 > 0:17:08We're moving to a mathematic seminar.
0:17:08 > 0:17:10We get more out than we get in, she's saying.
0:17:10 > 0:17:14I'm afraid, on that particular point, that's not true.
0:17:14 > 0:17:17Overall, we hand over to the European Union,
0:17:17 > 0:17:19every year, £20 billion.
0:17:19 > 0:17:22We get some of that money back through a rebate, but that rebate...
0:17:22 > 0:17:26But for science only, we get more than we put in.
0:17:26 > 0:17:28I'm afraid that's not true because...
0:17:28 > 0:17:31The IOP has said that. The Royal Society has said that.
0:17:31 > 0:17:34- Well...- Do I trust them or do I trust you?- Trust the figures.
0:17:34 > 0:17:37APPLAUSE
0:17:38 > 0:17:40All right. All right. To you. To you...
0:17:40 > 0:17:42I would say, "Trust the figures."
0:17:42 > 0:17:45£20 billion we handover, £10 billion we get back -
0:17:45 > 0:17:48that means we're £10 billion down on the deal.
0:17:48 > 0:17:51I think we should vote Leave so that we can take back control of that.
0:17:51 > 0:17:54A point from you and then I want to go on to another question. Yes?
0:17:54 > 0:17:56APPLAUSE
0:17:56 > 0:17:58I can't understand why all the risk associated
0:17:58 > 0:18:03with this referendum is put onto the Leave campaign.
0:18:03 > 0:18:06There's several risks associated with staying as well.
0:18:06 > 0:18:11We hardly ever get, or we never have had, a referendum
0:18:11 > 0:18:14on substantial treaty change at a European level.
0:18:14 > 0:18:18Are we going get sucked into the Schengen no passport area?
0:18:18 > 0:18:22Are we going get punished because we don't join the euro in the future?
0:18:22 > 0:18:23Will Turkey join the EU?
0:18:23 > 0:18:26There's so many risks associated with remaining,
0:18:26 > 0:18:28but that never gets brought up.
0:18:28 > 0:18:30APPLAUSE
0:18:32 > 0:18:34I think he's made your case for you on those points.
0:18:34 > 0:18:38- Well, he's put... You've put it brilliantly, yes.- OK.
0:18:38 > 0:18:40You can change places!
0:18:40 > 0:18:43Greta Holmer. Greta Holmer, please.
0:18:43 > 0:18:49I run a small business and over 50% of my trade is with the EU.
0:18:49 > 0:18:52How can you possibly guarantee that my business
0:18:52 > 0:18:55and other small businesses won't suffer as a result of pulling out?
0:18:55 > 0:18:59Well, all businesses that trade with the European Union benefit
0:18:59 > 0:19:02from the absence of tariffs, but there won't be a case
0:19:02 > 0:19:05for putting new tariffs on if we vote to leave.
0:19:05 > 0:19:07As we were discussing earlier, Germany sells more to us,
0:19:07 > 0:19:10the European Union sells more to us than we sell to them,
0:19:10 > 0:19:12so it's in their interests.
0:19:12 > 0:19:14We don't have to appeal to their better natures,
0:19:14 > 0:19:17it's in their interests to sell to us, but talking about...
0:19:17 > 0:19:19- Greta, what is it...? Sorry. - I sell to them...- Yeah.
0:19:19 > 0:19:21- I sell to them, they don't sell to me.- No.
0:19:21 > 0:19:25No, I'm sorry... I also trade with other countries
0:19:25 > 0:19:27- that are non-EU based... - What do you sell, exactly?
0:19:27 > 0:19:30..and they are much, much more difficult to trade with.
0:19:30 > 0:19:34- I'm a translator.- Oh, right. - I have a translation business.- Yeah.
0:19:34 > 0:19:36And I work with clients in the US,
0:19:36 > 0:19:39in China, in India and across the EU
0:19:39 > 0:19:43and in Switzerland as well, and it's much more difficult
0:19:43 > 0:19:47from a transactional point of view to work with non-EU countries.
0:19:47 > 0:19:51If we become a non-EU country, it will become more difficult
0:19:51 > 0:19:54to trade with the EU countries,
0:19:54 > 0:19:57which are the lifeblood of my business.
0:19:57 > 0:20:00APPLAUSE
0:20:04 > 0:20:05I'd say two things. The first thing is,
0:20:05 > 0:20:08it will only be more difficult if the European Union countries
0:20:08 > 0:20:11take leave of their senses and decide to make it more difficult
0:20:11 > 0:20:13to sell their goods to us.
0:20:13 > 0:20:15It works in both of our interests,
0:20:15 > 0:20:17in the European Union's and in Britain's interests,
0:20:17 > 0:20:20to keep those tariff barriers down.
0:20:20 > 0:20:23And if we create new trade deals with other countries,
0:20:23 > 0:20:24like China, India and Japan,
0:20:24 > 0:20:26it will be easier to trade with them.
0:20:26 > 0:20:29And even the European Commission says that, if we have
0:20:29 > 0:20:31those trade deals, we will be able to create more jobs.
0:20:31 > 0:20:34- But on the case of small businesses...- I thought your view
0:20:34 > 0:20:36was that the European Union does take leave of its senses.
0:20:36 > 0:20:39You were attacking Donald Tusk.
0:20:39 > 0:20:42- If they take...- At the moment... - Do they take leave of their senses?
0:20:42 > 0:20:44At the moment, they are trying to scare us...
0:20:44 > 0:20:47- Or are they rational...? - ..into staying and the reason
0:20:47 > 0:20:49they're trying to scare us into staying is because
0:20:49 > 0:20:50we pay so many of the bills.
0:20:50 > 0:20:54And once we vote to leave, then that decision will be
0:20:54 > 0:20:56respected by other countries,
0:20:56 > 0:20:59democracy will have spoken, and those other countries
0:20:59 > 0:21:01will look to their own interests
0:21:01 > 0:21:03- and recognise that it's a good thing to trade with us.- OK.
0:21:03 > 0:21:06The woman sitting there and then I'll come to you.
0:21:06 > 0:21:07APPLAUSE
0:21:07 > 0:21:09You go first.
0:21:09 > 0:21:12I study English literature, so, as a writer of words,
0:21:12 > 0:21:16I understand the tool of words and how you can manipulate people.
0:21:16 > 0:21:19At the moment, all I've heard from you is manipulation and bravado.
0:21:19 > 0:21:20Do you actually plan on doing anything?
0:21:20 > 0:21:23Are you going to propose to us what you're actually going to do?
0:21:23 > 0:21:26Because it's easy to talk but not as easy to walk.
0:21:26 > 0:21:28APPLAUSE
0:21:33 > 0:21:36I read English literature, too, when I was a student and...
0:21:36 > 0:21:38- LAUGHTER - ..and enjoyed it.
0:21:38 > 0:21:41- And good luck with your degree. - Thank you.
0:21:41 > 0:21:43We've outlined, today, a plan, actually,
0:21:43 > 0:21:45for what will happen if we vote to leave.
0:21:45 > 0:21:50That plan includes being able to invest more money in our NHS
0:21:50 > 0:21:53to help the very poorest in society, by taking VAT off fuel,
0:21:53 > 0:21:56and by negotiating new trade deals of the kind
0:21:56 > 0:21:57that I've just discussed.
0:21:57 > 0:22:00But one of the reasons why I was able to go to university
0:22:00 > 0:22:03is because of the sacrifices that my family made when I was younger.
0:22:03 > 0:22:05We were just discussing small businesses there.
0:22:05 > 0:22:08One of the things that I know about the European Union
0:22:08 > 0:22:11is that the European Union can destroy jobs.
0:22:11 > 0:22:14My dad ran a fish business in Aberdeen.
0:22:14 > 0:22:17The Common Fisheries Policy, unfortunately,
0:22:17 > 0:22:21led to the devastation of fishing in Scotland.
0:22:21 > 0:22:26My dad had to close his business and, as a result,
0:22:26 > 0:22:28something that had been built up by my grandfather
0:22:28 > 0:22:30and maintained by my dad disappeared.
0:22:30 > 0:22:33So my dad suffered and it's also the case that there are
0:22:33 > 0:22:36young people, people like you, aged 18 to 25,
0:22:36 > 0:22:40who are suffering in Greece and Portugal and Spain at the moment
0:22:40 > 0:22:41because of the EU.
0:22:41 > 0:22:44The EU is a job-destroying machine.
0:22:44 > 0:22:48And to use a phrase from English literature, that is a tragedy.
0:22:48 > 0:22:50APPLAUSE
0:22:56 > 0:22:57Two points, one about your dad,
0:22:57 > 0:23:00who was quoted today in the newspapers as saying,
0:23:00 > 0:23:03"It wasn't like that, it wasn't hardship or anything like that,
0:23:03 > 0:23:05"it wasn't the EU that made me close my business."
0:23:05 > 0:23:07Well...
0:23:07 > 0:23:10APPLAUSE
0:23:10 > 0:23:12My dad was rung up by a reporter from the Guardian
0:23:12 > 0:23:14who tried to put words into his mouth.
0:23:14 > 0:23:17But my dad has been clear, he was clear to the BBC on Sunday night,
0:23:17 > 0:23:19he was clear to me when I was a boy,
0:23:19 > 0:23:22that the business that he invested so much care and time in
0:23:22 > 0:23:25had to close as a result of the Common Fisheries Policy.
0:23:25 > 0:23:28I remember when my dad ran his business,
0:23:28 > 0:23:30two of his employees were lads who were in a care home,
0:23:30 > 0:23:32they didn't have parents.
0:23:32 > 0:23:34My dad took them in, gave them a job
0:23:34 > 0:23:37and allowed them to work in his business
0:23:37 > 0:23:40and to sleep there in a spare room that he made for them.
0:23:40 > 0:23:41That business closed,
0:23:41 > 0:23:45those boys lost their home as a result of what happened.
0:23:45 > 0:23:48I know what my dad went through when I was a schoolboy
0:23:48 > 0:23:51and I don't think that the Guardian or anyone else
0:23:51 > 0:23:53should belittle his suffering
0:23:53 > 0:23:57or try to get a 79-year-old man to serve their agenda
0:23:57 > 0:24:00- instead of agreeing and being proud of what his son does.- OK.
0:24:00 > 0:24:02APPLAUSE
0:24:09 > 0:24:13Just to pick you up on the job-destroying machine
0:24:13 > 0:24:15that you call the EU - did it the other day.
0:24:15 > 0:24:17At the Tory Party Conference,
0:24:17 > 0:24:19you were boasting that we'd created two million jobs,
0:24:19 > 0:24:21more than any other government in history.
0:24:21 > 0:24:24That doesn't sound like a job-destroying machine.
0:24:24 > 0:24:26Or are we out of the EU in terms of all that?
0:24:26 > 0:24:29Many of the jobs that we created were actually filled by people
0:24:29 > 0:24:32who came from Europe, from countries which were
0:24:32 > 0:24:35suffering as a result of the single currency and the euro.
0:24:35 > 0:24:39I think we would create even more jobs if we left the European Union
0:24:39 > 0:24:41and that's not just my view, that it is the view
0:24:41 > 0:24:45of independent experts and authorities who have looked
0:24:45 > 0:24:49at the capacity of new trade deals to generate more jobs for us.
0:24:49 > 0:24:52If we vote to leave, if we take back control of our economic policy,
0:24:52 > 0:24:55then we can at last begin to allow this country
0:24:55 > 0:24:59to become great again, to take off economically
0:24:59 > 0:25:02and to provide young people with the opportunities that they deserve.
0:25:02 > 0:25:03All right. The woman up there.
0:25:03 > 0:25:06- APPLAUSE - You're on about trade deals
0:25:06 > 0:25:09and these things that you seem to have in your head.
0:25:09 > 0:25:11Where's your actual proof of a trade deal
0:25:11 > 0:25:13with the European Union once we're out?
0:25:13 > 0:25:15Where's your proof that tariffs are going be lower?
0:25:15 > 0:25:18I think you're living in a fantasy, to be honest.
0:25:18 > 0:25:21APPLAUSE
0:25:21 > 0:25:24I'm not relying on fantasising about the future,
0:25:24 > 0:25:28I'm relying about the facts on the ground at the moment.
0:25:28 > 0:25:30Germany and France sell lots to us
0:25:30 > 0:25:33and they sell far more to us than we sell to the European Union...
0:25:33 > 0:25:36- But have you got...?- ..so it's in their interests to cut a deal.
0:25:36 > 0:25:39The thing about business is that people aren't sentimental -
0:25:39 > 0:25:41I understand that. They look to self-interest
0:25:41 > 0:25:45and it's in the self-interest of those countries to cut that deal.
0:25:45 > 0:25:47- Go on.- But have you got any, like, proof? Have you...?
0:25:47 > 0:25:50Are you somehow, behind the scenes, writing a contract
0:25:50 > 0:25:52with the European Union that that deal will continue?
0:25:52 > 0:25:55That trade deal will continue? I think it's just in your head
0:25:55 > 0:25:58and I think it's just in the heads of the people who want to leave.
0:25:58 > 0:26:01Well, one of the things that none of us can do
0:26:01 > 0:26:03is predict the future with certainty.
0:26:03 > 0:26:05But, as we heard from the young man in the front row here,
0:26:05 > 0:26:09if we vote to remain, what we will be doing is actually signing up
0:26:09 > 0:26:12for a riskier future. We'll be signing up for picking up
0:26:12 > 0:26:15some of the bills of the European Union as it expands
0:26:15 > 0:26:18and as it adds five new countries -
0:26:18 > 0:26:21Albania, Montenegro, Macedonia, Serbia and Turkey
0:26:21 > 0:26:24are all on course to join the European Union.
0:26:24 > 0:26:27If we vote to remain, then we will be paying the bills
0:26:27 > 0:26:29to allow them to come in.
0:26:29 > 0:26:32In fact, we're paying, at the moment, nearly £2 billion
0:26:32 > 0:26:36in order to get these countries into the EU. That is a fact.
0:26:36 > 0:26:38- And if we vote to leave... - You're making the EU stronger.
0:26:38 > 0:26:41..we won't be paying that money any more and it will be the case
0:26:41 > 0:26:43that we won't be in a borderless zone with Turkey.
0:26:43 > 0:26:46Mr Gove, let's come over here cos I've had my back to everybody here,
0:26:46 > 0:26:48so I've not seen who's had their hands up.
0:26:48 > 0:26:50Maybe you in the blue there, sir.
0:26:50 > 0:26:53Why has this government and previous governments
0:26:53 > 0:26:56let Brussels interfere so much that we're now at the point
0:26:56 > 0:26:59of voting to stay in or out of Europe?
0:26:59 > 0:27:02- Well...- You mean that the governments have failed?
0:27:02 > 0:27:04- APPLAUSE - No, they've interfered so much
0:27:04 > 0:27:07- with our law-making and our border controls...- OK.
0:27:07 > 0:27:09..that we've now come to one of our biggest decisions
0:27:09 > 0:27:11that we're ever going to make.
0:27:11 > 0:27:16I think you're right and I hoped that Europe might change.
0:27:16 > 0:27:19I hoped that the people who run the European Union,
0:27:19 > 0:27:20these bureaucrats,
0:27:20 > 0:27:24would recognise that the single currency had been a disaster,
0:27:24 > 0:27:28that the migration crisis on their borders in the Mediterranean
0:27:28 > 0:27:30was a tragedy and that they would change.
0:27:30 > 0:27:33And our Prime Minister tried to get them to change,
0:27:33 > 0:27:36- but unfortunately they would not. - But when David Cameron...
0:27:36 > 0:27:38And if the European Union isn't going to change
0:27:38 > 0:27:40and it works against us, we've got to vote to leave.
0:27:40 > 0:27:43Does everybody agree with him or take issue with what he's saying?
0:27:43 > 0:27:46- When David Cameron went to...- Hang on a second.- ..to get deals.- Yeah.
0:27:46 > 0:27:48They bent over backwards to keep Greece in the euro,
0:27:48 > 0:27:51which surely David Cameron could've said, you know,
0:27:51 > 0:27:54"We want back our border controls back or we're coming out"?
0:27:54 > 0:27:57- Do you agree with that, behind? - To a point, I agree.
0:27:57 > 0:27:59- I think I want to put a question to Mr Gove.- Yeah.
0:27:59 > 0:28:03We talk about all of the wonderful things that are going to happen
0:28:03 > 0:28:06if we leave, and I agree that there are plenty of opportunities
0:28:06 > 0:28:09if we do leave, but do you have confidence that if we do get
0:28:09 > 0:28:12a Leave vote, that a Prime Minister that has campaigned to Remain
0:28:12 > 0:28:15- will actually go on and deliver them?- I do.
0:28:15 > 0:28:17APPLAUSE
0:28:20 > 0:28:23I'm glad that you think there are many opportunities open to us
0:28:23 > 0:28:25if we vote to leave. In fact, the case for leaving is
0:28:25 > 0:28:28an optimistic case about the potential of the British people
0:28:28 > 0:28:30to achieve even more.
0:28:30 > 0:28:32But, of course, the reason we're having a referendum
0:28:32 > 0:28:35is to give an instruction to the Prime Minister.
0:28:35 > 0:28:37The general election allowed us to choose a government
0:28:37 > 0:28:39and a Prime Minister.
0:28:39 > 0:28:41One of the things that David Cameron promised
0:28:41 > 0:28:44was a referendum and he has promised that he will abide
0:28:44 > 0:28:46by the results of the referendum.
0:28:46 > 0:28:49So, whatever you choose to vote on the June the 23rd,
0:28:49 > 0:28:52that will be delivered.
0:28:52 > 0:28:55And I hope that people, on the June the 23rd, will vote to leave
0:28:55 > 0:28:57and vote to show confidence in this country
0:28:57 > 0:29:00and its potential to achieve amazing things in the future.
0:29:00 > 0:29:03And what is the fate of the Chancellor of the Exchequer,
0:29:03 > 0:29:05who says that, if we vote to leave,
0:29:05 > 0:29:09he's going to have to impose income tax increases,
0:29:09 > 0:29:12cuts in spending and has already got 65 Tory MPs
0:29:12 > 0:29:13saying they won't go for it
0:29:13 > 0:29:16and the entire Labour Party saying they won't vote for it?
0:29:16 > 0:29:19Will he have to go? Is the price of Brexit that Osborne goes
0:29:19 > 0:29:22and is that maybe one of the things that you want to see happen?
0:29:22 > 0:29:24One of the things that we've seen from the Leave campaign,
0:29:24 > 0:29:26as we've got closer and closer to the vote,
0:29:26 > 0:29:30is ramping up the fear, turning it up to 11.
0:29:30 > 0:29:33And one of the things I say is,
0:29:33 > 0:29:36instead of listening to the scare stories,
0:29:36 > 0:29:40and instead of thinking about individuals and personalities,
0:29:40 > 0:29:42think about the potential for this country.
0:29:42 > 0:29:45Ultimately, this debate isn't about individual politicians
0:29:45 > 0:29:48and their fate, it's about this country and its destiny.
0:29:48 > 0:29:51Do you believe that this country is better governed by people
0:29:51 > 0:29:54whom you elect and whom you can kick out?
0:29:54 > 0:29:57- All right.- Or do you think this country is better governed
0:29:57 > 0:30:02by five EU presidents, none of whom we can name,
0:30:02 > 0:30:05none of whom were directly elected, none of whom we can throw out?
0:30:05 > 0:30:09I think we should have a vote of confidence in our democracy
0:30:09 > 0:30:12and in our people and that's why I think, on June the 23rd,
0:30:12 > 0:30:14we should vote Leave and take back control.
0:30:14 > 0:30:16APPLAUSE
0:30:22 > 0:30:25Well, you accused the Remain camp of scaremongering.
0:30:25 > 0:30:28Let's have a question from Daniel Abrams, please.
0:30:31 > 0:30:33Is Vote Leave scaremongering saying that Turkey
0:30:33 > 0:30:37and its 76 million population will join the EU?
0:30:37 > 0:30:40APPLAUSE
0:30:42 > 0:30:44Absolutely not.
0:30:44 > 0:30:48One of the things that struck me during the course
0:30:48 > 0:30:53of this debate is the fact that the European Union
0:30:53 > 0:30:56is accelerating talks to get Turkey into the EU.
0:30:56 > 0:31:00There's a story in the Financial Times this morning,
0:31:00 > 0:31:01the business bible,
0:31:01 > 0:31:06which said that British diplomats had agreed to accelerate talks to
0:31:06 > 0:31:09get Turkey into the European Union
0:31:09 > 0:31:13and those talks would take place on 24th of June,
0:31:13 > 0:31:16the day after our referendum, if we vote to stay in.
0:31:16 > 0:31:20More than that, we're spending millions of pounds preparing Turkey
0:31:20 > 0:31:23and four other countries to enter the European Union.
0:31:23 > 0:31:25It's the policy of the European Union,
0:31:25 > 0:31:27it's the policy of our Government.
0:31:27 > 0:31:32Our Government has said that we want to pave the road from Ankara,
0:31:32 > 0:31:34the Turkish capital, to Brussels.
0:31:34 > 0:31:39It is Government policy and the only way we can stop it,
0:31:39 > 0:31:42the only way that any of us will have a vote on whether or not
0:31:42 > 0:31:47we're in the same union as Turkey, is if we vote to leave on June 23rd.
0:31:47 > 0:31:49The Prime Minister says we have a veto on that.
0:31:49 > 0:31:52Of course, the Prime Minister does say we have a veto...
0:31:52 > 0:31:54So it'll only happen if the British Prime Minister wants it,
0:31:54 > 0:31:56so we have power over that decision.
0:31:56 > 0:31:59But it is the official policy of the Government, articulated
0:31:59 > 0:32:02by the Prime Minister and others, to allow Turkey to enter.
0:32:02 > 0:32:06He says by the year 3000, I think the most recent date.
0:32:06 > 0:32:08The point is we have the veto.
0:32:08 > 0:32:09Do we not have the veto?
0:32:09 > 0:32:14The point is that the Government has no intention of using that veto,
0:32:14 > 0:32:17because Government Ministers have said that they are
0:32:17 > 0:32:21the strongest advocates of Turkish membership of the European Union
0:32:21 > 0:32:23and we are spending money on securing it.
0:32:23 > 0:32:25When do you think it'll happen?
0:32:25 > 0:32:28I think it will inevitably happen in our lifetimes,
0:32:28 > 0:32:31unless we vote Leave on June 23rd.
0:32:31 > 0:32:33OK. Let me take you, sir.
0:32:33 > 0:32:37It just seems, no matter which way you look at it,
0:32:37 > 0:32:41you need to look at the positives of each side.
0:32:41 > 0:32:44You're giving us the positives of what we can do, but what
0:32:44 > 0:32:48I'm not hearing from the Remain campaign is any positives at all.
0:32:48 > 0:32:50They haven't told us anything.
0:32:50 > 0:32:53My question to you is, if we do leave,
0:32:53 > 0:32:57how can you get our immigration down to the tens of thousands when we
0:32:57 > 0:33:00already have hundreds of thousands of immigrants in our country
0:33:00 > 0:33:04at the minute, and you have already stated you wouldn't deport any of
0:33:04 > 0:33:08them, fearing that other countries would deport people living there.
0:33:08 > 0:33:11- Yes.- What's your opinion on that?
0:33:11 > 0:33:15The only way that we can control the number of people who come into this
0:33:15 > 0:33:19country is by voting to leave and taking back control of our borders.
0:33:19 > 0:33:21APPLAUSE
0:33:26 > 0:33:30Now, don't get me wrong. I favour controlled migration.
0:33:30 > 0:33:31I think it is a good thing
0:33:31 > 0:33:35when people come here who have additional skills that we need.
0:33:35 > 0:33:38I also think it's a really good thing, if there are people who are
0:33:38 > 0:33:42fleeing persecution and suffering, if we can give them a safe haven.
0:33:42 > 0:33:46But the only way that you can maintain support for migration
0:33:46 > 0:33:50and its benefits is if people feel that this country controls
0:33:50 > 0:33:53the numbers and controls who comes here.
0:33:53 > 0:33:55At the moment, under European Union law,
0:33:55 > 0:33:58there are criminals here that we can't deport.
0:33:58 > 0:34:01There are terrorists, people with terrorist pasts,
0:34:01 > 0:34:05that we can't prevent coming in. That is a real risk to our security.
0:34:05 > 0:34:07And, of course, if we vote to leave,
0:34:07 > 0:34:10we can have an Australian-style points system,
0:34:10 > 0:34:12which means that you can decide
0:34:12 > 0:34:15the numbers who come here and the basis on which they come.
0:34:15 > 0:34:18And that means immigration can work in everyone's benefits
0:34:18 > 0:34:20because we trust the British people,
0:34:20 > 0:34:23their generosity and their sense of principle to decide.
0:34:23 > 0:34:25APPLAUSE
0:34:25 > 0:34:31How long will it take to get to the target of under 100,000 immigrants,
0:34:31 > 0:34:35when I think the figure is 170,000 at the moment are students
0:34:35 > 0:34:38and people coming for family reasons because they're married
0:34:38 > 0:34:42and bringing their wives or husbands here, how long will it take?
0:34:42 > 0:34:45I think we can secure our exit from the European Union by 2020
0:34:45 > 0:34:49and then we can move to bring down the numbers in the next Parliament.
0:34:49 > 0:34:51And I think that critically, critically,
0:34:51 > 0:34:54it should be for the British people to decide
0:34:54 > 0:34:57what they think the appropriate numbers are. The virtue of...
0:34:57 > 0:34:59They did decide, they voted for your Government for the 100,000,
0:34:59 > 0:35:01and nothing happened.
0:35:01 > 0:35:05They did. And one of the reasons why we cannot fulfil that promise
0:35:05 > 0:35:09is that, inside the European Union, we can't control the numbers who
0:35:09 > 0:35:10come here from any EU nation...
0:35:10 > 0:35:13Hang on, what about the ones who came from outside the EU?
0:35:13 > 0:35:15- ..unlimited free movement. - What about...?
0:35:15 > 0:35:18Of the hundreds of millions of people in the European Union,
0:35:18 > 0:35:20they all have a right to come here.
0:35:20 > 0:35:23What about the ones who came from outside, which you could control,
0:35:23 > 0:35:25- and you didn't?- Yes.- So that suggests the British people speak,
0:35:25 > 0:35:28if that was what their voice said, and the Government didn't deliver.
0:35:28 > 0:35:32188,000 came from outside the EU, which they could control.
0:35:32 > 0:35:34APPLAUSE
0:35:37 > 0:35:40It all goes back to the issue of rhetoric, trust, confidence,
0:35:40 > 0:35:42- delivery, doesn't it? - Yes, absolutely.
0:35:42 > 0:35:45And there is more that we can do to reduce the number of people
0:35:45 > 0:35:47coming from outside the European Union.
0:35:47 > 0:35:52But, broadly, half of the people who came here last year, net migration,
0:35:52 > 0:35:54came from the European Union, half came from outside.
0:35:54 > 0:35:57The European Union is about 8% of the world's population,
0:35:57 > 0:36:00so far more proportionately come from the European Union.
0:36:00 > 0:36:03The thing about people who come from the outside
0:36:03 > 0:36:04is that we can, if we wish to,
0:36:04 > 0:36:07change our visa regime and have fewer people coming here.
0:36:07 > 0:36:10It is within our power, within our control.
0:36:10 > 0:36:15If we remain in the European Union, we cannot place any limits
0:36:15 > 0:36:17or any control on the number of people who come here
0:36:17 > 0:36:19from European Union countries.
0:36:19 > 0:36:22So, if we want to have a controlled migration policy,
0:36:22 > 0:36:24we have to vote Leave and take back control.
0:36:24 > 0:36:27Does anybody want to come back on that particular issue?
0:36:27 > 0:36:29- You do, yes. - I'm an immigrant myself
0:36:29 > 0:36:32and the more you speak, the more offended I feel.
0:36:32 > 0:36:35I've been working in England for 14 years now,
0:36:35 > 0:36:37paying my taxes day in, day out,
0:36:37 > 0:36:41unlike others that I'm not going to mention, obviously.
0:36:41 > 0:36:44I helped to build this economy in this country
0:36:44 > 0:36:48and that's how you treat us. I feel so offended...
0:36:48 > 0:36:50APPLAUSE
0:36:50 > 0:36:52INAUDIBLE
0:36:52 > 0:36:55All right...
0:36:55 > 0:36:57It's a pity I can't vote
0:36:57 > 0:37:00because obviously you know what I was going to vote.
0:37:00 > 0:37:01We're better all together.
0:37:01 > 0:37:04We are not the enemy, Mr Gove, we are not the enemy.
0:37:04 > 0:37:09- We are your friend... - APPLAUSE
0:37:09 > 0:37:13Let me tell you something, you could change the numbers,
0:37:13 > 0:37:17not by going out but staying in and helping. Sorry.
0:37:17 > 0:37:19Let Mr Gove reply.
0:37:19 > 0:37:22I entirely understand your point of view and you make your case
0:37:22 > 0:37:25with great passion and force. As I mentioned to the gentleman
0:37:25 > 0:37:28just two rows along from you, I'm in favour of migration -
0:37:28 > 0:37:29I simply want to control the numbers.
0:37:29 > 0:37:31I can't believe that, I'm sorry.
0:37:31 > 0:37:33In Australia, in Canada,
0:37:33 > 0:37:35they control the numbers of people who come.
0:37:35 > 0:37:38She doesn't believe that you're in favour of it.
0:37:38 > 0:37:40The message you're sending
0:37:40 > 0:37:42is not the same message you are actually giving.
0:37:42 > 0:37:44I don't receive the message.
0:37:44 > 0:37:49Unfortunately for you, it comes to me like we are not welcome.
0:37:49 > 0:37:51You use us to your convenience
0:37:51 > 0:37:55and, when we are no use any more, you kick us out.
0:37:55 > 0:37:57I'm sorry...
0:37:58 > 0:38:00You're trying to cover all...
0:38:00 > 0:38:04Can I ask which country you come from and the job that you do?
0:38:04 > 0:38:06I'm just curious to know.
0:38:06 > 0:38:09I'm Spanish, from Spain.
0:38:09 > 0:38:13I have a brother-in-law who lives in Spain.
0:38:13 > 0:38:14Do you?
0:38:14 > 0:38:17I value the fact that there are people who have come here, like you,
0:38:17 > 0:38:20who've contributed so much to our national life.
0:38:20 > 0:38:23And in fact, just a year ago, on your programme, David,
0:38:23 > 0:38:26I had the opportunity to defend those who work in the NHS
0:38:26 > 0:38:30and who work in other public services who have come here from other countries.
0:38:30 > 0:38:33One thing is undeniable, if we are going to continue to have
0:38:33 > 0:38:37support for migration, we need to be able to control the numbers.
0:38:37 > 0:38:41One of the reasons why Australia and Canada have support
0:38:41 > 0:38:45for migration is because they control the numbers.
0:38:45 > 0:38:48And the critical thing is to maintain support
0:38:48 > 0:38:51for our multiracial, multi-ethnic success story,
0:38:51 > 0:38:53we need to take back control.
0:38:53 > 0:38:55Of course, it's not just the lady here.
0:38:55 > 0:38:59Michael Heseltine, former Deputy Prime Minister, wrote a letter
0:38:59 > 0:39:01to you saying the Brexit case,
0:39:01 > 0:39:04"Relies on fanning fears about immigration.
0:39:04 > 0:39:07"I'm amazed that someone like you now marches to the drum
0:39:07 > 0:39:10"of Farage, Trump and Le Pen."
0:39:10 > 0:39:12APPLAUSE
0:39:18 > 0:39:20What do you say to that?
0:39:20 > 0:39:23I don't mind being attacked personally,
0:39:23 > 0:39:28but the question that all of us have to answer is, Michael Heseltine,
0:39:28 > 0:39:31by saying that, appears to be saying that anyone,
0:39:31 > 0:39:35anyone who thinks that we should control the numbers coming here,
0:39:35 > 0:39:36whatever that figure,
0:39:36 > 0:39:39is automatically an ally of those three people.
0:39:39 > 0:39:41I think it is wrong to say to the British people
0:39:41 > 0:39:45that if they simply want to control the numbers of people who come here,
0:39:45 > 0:39:48that they are in the company of those three.
0:39:48 > 0:39:51- APPLAUSE - There is nothing wrong...
0:39:54 > 0:39:57Nothing wrong in saying that we value migration,
0:39:57 > 0:40:00- but we want to take back control. - All right.
0:40:00 > 0:40:04Most of the migrants who come here do the jobs that indigenous
0:40:04 > 0:40:07British people don't and won't do.
0:40:07 > 0:40:10There are factories, there are warehouses,
0:40:10 > 0:40:11there are processing plants,
0:40:11 > 0:40:15not just in Nottingham but all over the country,
0:40:15 > 0:40:21that 100% or 98% of the workforce are EU migrants
0:40:21 > 0:40:23because British people won't do them.
0:40:23 > 0:40:27If we leave, people will find that there aren't the care staff
0:40:27 > 0:40:30in the residential homes, there aren't the fruit and vegetables
0:40:30 > 0:40:34in the shops, because we don't have the migrant workers who pick them.
0:40:34 > 0:40:38How many...? How many EU migrants do you know who work here?
0:40:38 > 0:40:41You think it's unrealistic, in other words.
0:40:41 > 0:40:45The country will collapse. You talk about controlled migration...
0:40:45 > 0:40:47APPLAUSE
0:40:47 > 0:40:50- These are largely people... - Sorry, you made the point.
0:40:50 > 0:40:53They work in horrible jobs that British people don't want to do.
0:40:53 > 0:40:56We don't have very much time, I'm afraid. You've made your point.
0:40:56 > 0:41:00Thank you. I value everyone who is hard working in this country.
0:41:00 > 0:41:01We are not going to,
0:41:01 > 0:41:04as the gentleman in the second row pointed out,
0:41:04 > 0:41:07I'm not going deport or kick anyone out who is hard working,
0:41:07 > 0:41:10but there's a consequence for working people in this country
0:41:10 > 0:41:11as a result of migration.
0:41:11 > 0:41:15The Bank of England published a report that pointed out
0:41:15 > 0:41:19that it is working people who have their wages held down
0:41:19 > 0:41:20as a result of migration.
0:41:20 > 0:41:23It is people who are unskilled or semi-skilled,
0:41:23 > 0:41:25in the terms of the Bank of England's experts,
0:41:25 > 0:41:27working people, in my view,
0:41:27 > 0:41:32who have their wages cut by 2% for every 10% increase in migration.
0:41:32 > 0:41:37I don't think it's right to set community against community
0:41:37 > 0:41:39and to be so dismissive of what you call the indigenous people
0:41:39 > 0:41:42of this country. I believe in the people of this country.
0:41:42 > 0:41:45I want them to have higher wages, I want them to have jobs,
0:41:45 > 0:41:48and I don't want them, to be honest, talked down to in the way...
0:41:48 > 0:41:50You've said that a couple of times...
0:41:50 > 0:41:53You've made the point. We've only got a couple of minutes.
0:41:53 > 0:41:55Edward Neil, quickly, if you would.
0:41:55 > 0:41:59Does Vote Leave regret using the £350 million a week figure on its battlebus?
0:41:59 > 0:42:02The money you claim that we give to the EU,
0:42:02 > 0:42:06which has been roundly criticised, not by the advertising agencies,
0:42:06 > 0:42:09they're not allowed to say anything about political campaigns,
0:42:09 > 0:42:13but it's been described as misleading, to put it generously.
0:42:13 > 0:42:16Some have, but I stand by that figure.
0:42:16 > 0:42:19That is the amount that the European Union controls.
0:42:19 > 0:42:21Ultimately, this debate is about control.
0:42:21 > 0:42:24Who do you think should spend our money better?
0:42:24 > 0:42:26People that you elect and whom you can kick out,
0:42:26 > 0:42:30or people you've never heard of and over whom you have no control?
0:42:30 > 0:42:33That £350 million, yes, some of it comes back here.
0:42:33 > 0:42:35Some of it comes back through the rebate,
0:42:35 > 0:42:37but you can't count on the rebate.
0:42:37 > 0:42:40It's been cut in the past and, if we vote to remain,
0:42:40 > 0:42:42it'll be cut in the future.
0:42:42 > 0:42:43Some of it comes back,
0:42:43 > 0:42:45we heard from the lady in the third row,
0:42:45 > 0:42:47to spend money on science and on farming.
0:42:47 > 0:42:51And, of course, it's a good thing that we invest in those areas
0:42:51 > 0:42:53and we are going to carry on investing in those areas.
0:42:53 > 0:42:57But at least half of that money goes into the European Union
0:42:57 > 0:42:59and we never see it again.
0:42:59 > 0:43:02I think, if we vote Leave and we take back control,
0:43:02 > 0:43:04we should spend that money on our priorities.
0:43:04 > 0:43:06APPLAUSE
0:43:06 > 0:43:09The woman at the back.
0:43:12 > 0:43:15So much of what you say sounds incredibly plausible,
0:43:15 > 0:43:17but I can't help sitting here thinking
0:43:17 > 0:43:19that you are a wolf in sheep's clothing,
0:43:19 > 0:43:21that this decision to leave...
0:43:21 > 0:43:23APPLAUSE
0:43:23 > 0:43:25..is really... It has so many consequences
0:43:25 > 0:43:28we're not talking about, the geopolitical issues,
0:43:28 > 0:43:30isolating the UK, the knock-on effect to Europe,
0:43:30 > 0:43:32what's going to happen with Greece,
0:43:32 > 0:43:34what will happen to the other countries.
0:43:34 > 0:43:37This decision goes against the heart of what us British,
0:43:37 > 0:43:41I think, believe in, in collaboration and joining together.
0:43:41 > 0:43:43APPLAUSE
0:43:43 > 0:43:46Mr Gove, 30 seconds, because we really have to stop.
0:43:46 > 0:43:49If we vote to leave, we'll be affirming our faith in democracy.
0:43:49 > 0:43:52We'll also be sending a message to the European Union,
0:43:52 > 0:43:55that the people who've been running it for the past ten years
0:43:55 > 0:43:57have been running the countries of Europe into the ground.
0:43:57 > 0:44:00The way that we will help Greece is by saying to the people
0:44:00 > 0:44:03responsible for the single currency, "You are wrong, change direction."
0:44:03 > 0:44:06The way that we'll help international co-operation
0:44:06 > 0:44:10is by saying that we believe Britain is stronger, freer and fairer,
0:44:10 > 0:44:12and can be a progressive beacon for the whole world.
0:44:12 > 0:44:16CHEERING AND APPLAUSE
0:44:20 > 0:44:22Thank you very much.
0:44:22 > 0:44:24Just to say that ends this, obviously, ends this edition
0:44:24 > 0:44:27of Question Time. David Cameron, Prime Minister, is going to be
0:44:27 > 0:44:30facing questions from an audience in Milton Keynes on Sunday,
0:44:30 > 0:44:33same time, 6:45, BBC One. We're back with Question Time tomorrow in York.
0:44:33 > 0:44:35Among people on the panel, we've got Bob Geldof,
0:44:35 > 0:44:39who's come back from his confrontation with Nigel Farage.
0:44:39 > 0:44:43That's tomorrow evening at 10:45.
0:44:43 > 0:44:46It just leaves me to thank you, Mr Gove, for coming here
0:44:46 > 0:44:48and to thank our audience. From the Albert Hall,
0:44:48 > 0:44:50here in Nottingham, goodnight.
0:44:50 > 0:44:54APPLAUSE