0:00:01 > 0:00:06Welcome to a special edition of Question Time. Last Wednesday,
0:00:07 > 0:00:10Michael Gove faced our studio audience in Nottingham. Tonight, in
0:00:11 > 0:00:19Milton Keynes, it is the turn of the Prime Minister, David Cameron, who
0:00:20 > 0:00:25is speaking for the Remain campaign. Good evening. Campaigning resumed
0:00:26 > 0:00:30today after the shocking murder of Jo Cox, and I hope that you will
0:00:31 > 0:00:34agree that the best tribute to Jo Cox, and to her commitment to
0:00:35 > 0:00:38democracy, would be for these important issues for our country to
0:00:39 > 0:00:42be debated thoroughly from now until the vote on Thursday, and that is
0:00:43 > 0:00:46what we intend to do here on Question Time tonight. Our audience
0:00:47 > 0:00:49is divided evenly between those who want to remain and those who want to
0:00:50 > 0:00:55leave, with some still trying to make up their minds. As always on
0:00:56 > 0:00:59Question Time, Mr Cameron has not seen the questions in advance, does
0:01:00 > 0:01:01not know what is going to be asked. Would you welcome the Prime
0:01:02 > 0:01:05Minister, David Cameron? APPLAUSE
0:01:06 > 0:01:20Thank you very much. Prime Minister, our first question
0:01:21 > 0:01:28comes from Jo Cox, please, sorry, what a terrible thing to say, add
0:01:29 > 0:01:30body. Mr Cameron, as this referendum soured the political debate in this
0:01:31 > 0:01:36nation in light of the tragic murder of Jo Cox? Well, first of all, let
0:01:37 > 0:01:41me say, you know, how shocked the whole country has been by this
0:01:42 > 0:01:44appalling murder. Two children have lost their mother, a loving husband
0:01:45 > 0:01:48has lost his wife, and my heart breaks when I think of them and what
0:01:49 > 0:01:52they are going through. And I think the most important thing for
0:01:53 > 0:01:56politicians is to remember what she was all about, which is service,
0:01:57 > 0:01:59community, tolerance, values we should all try to live by and
0:02:00 > 0:02:04promote in order to remember. Look, I don't think we know why exactly
0:02:05 > 0:02:07this happened, or what the motivation was, and all the rest of
0:02:08 > 0:02:11it, and we have to wait for the police investigation before we do
0:02:12 > 0:02:17that. But I think what we do know is, wherever we see intolerance,
0:02:18 > 0:02:21hatred, division, we should try and drive it out of our communities, out
0:02:22 > 0:02:25of our public life, and we have to be careful that debates, yes, they
0:02:26 > 0:02:29can be passionate, but we have to make sure that they are not based on
0:02:30 > 0:02:33those things. Has it been a rather sour debate in your view? It has
0:02:34 > 0:02:36been very passionate, and I understand that, because there are
0:02:37 > 0:02:41strong and passionate views on both sides. I will be frank, there have
0:02:42 > 0:02:45been moments, like the Nigel Farage poster, which I think are just
0:02:46 > 0:02:50wrong, wrong in fact because it is a picture of people in the European
0:02:51 > 0:02:54continent, from Syria and elsewhere, not coming to Britain. But also
0:02:55 > 0:02:59wrong in motivation, because it is an attempt to frighten people, to
0:03:00 > 0:03:03scare them, to divide people... Has your side been guilty of any of
0:03:04 > 0:03:06that? I would say there is nothing more positive than trying to have a
0:03:07 > 0:03:10growing economy, jobs and opportunities, which is what the
0:03:11 > 0:03:16case for Remain is all about. We will come onto the economic
0:03:17 > 0:03:19warnings... John Major called the other campaign squalid, yes? You
0:03:20 > 0:03:26said that the leader of Isis would be happy if we left the EU. Those
0:03:27 > 0:03:31contributions to a measured debate, you or John Major? I actually think
0:03:32 > 0:03:36the Isis one is true, the terrorist to want to do us harm, they want the
0:03:37 > 0:03:40West to be divided. They do not want Britain, France, Germany and Belgium
0:03:41 > 0:03:48to work together to defeat terrorism, they would like to see us
0:03:49 > 0:03:51celebrate. I think the poster was irresponsible. I think there is an
0:03:52 > 0:03:56attempt to frighten people. You think by comparing the referencing
0:03:57 > 0:04:00to Isis, you are scaremongering, rather than portraying the facts? --
0:04:01 > 0:04:06the referendum to Isis. APPLAUSE
0:04:07 > 0:04:09I certainly wasn't comparing the referendum to Isis, to Daesh, I was
0:04:10 > 0:04:13simply saying that I think one of the strongest arguments for
0:04:14 > 0:04:16remaining in the European Union is that we are stronger together, we
0:04:17 > 0:04:20are safer together will stop we do face a dangerous and insecure world,
0:04:21 > 0:04:24and I have been your Prime Minister for six years, and I sit in meetings
0:04:25 > 0:04:28and I see that we work together to face down these threats, and I think
0:04:29 > 0:04:33we would be stronger if we work together. Working together against
0:04:34 > 0:04:37terrorism, against Putin and his aggression in Europe, it must be
0:04:38 > 0:04:42better to stay together, to work together, rather than be separate.
0:04:43 > 0:04:45One more point. I have to say, I have found the campaign is very
0:04:46 > 0:04:50confusing. I don't think either side has made a very good point, and I am
0:04:51 > 0:04:54an educated young woman, and I do not know how I am going to vote. I
0:04:55 > 0:04:56think both sides should feel a little bit ashamed of how they have
0:04:57 > 0:05:03behaved. APPLAUSE
0:05:04 > 0:05:19Let's turn two aspects of the campaign. Is the emergency Brexit
0:05:20 > 0:05:22Budget a punishment for Leave voters? The Chancellor of the
0:05:23 > 0:05:28Exchequer produced a Budget which said 2p in the pound on income tax,
0:05:29 > 0:05:32pensioners' triple lock no longer applied if we vote Leave. Nobody
0:05:33 > 0:05:36wants to have cuts to public spending or putting up taxes, but
0:05:37 > 0:05:39this goes to the heart of the debate and the heart of the argument we
0:05:40 > 0:05:43need to have, because I am absolutely convinced that our
0:05:44 > 0:05:52economy will suffer if we leave. And the reason for that is, today we are
0:05:53 > 0:05:54part of a single market of 500 million people, and that is where
0:05:55 > 0:05:57almost half of what we sell overseas goes. If we leave the single market,
0:05:58 > 0:06:00if we have less good access to it, it stands to common sense that we
0:06:01 > 0:06:04will have less growth, less jobs, less livelihoods for people in our
0:06:05 > 0:06:08country. So if that happens, you don't gain money by leaving the EU.
0:06:09 > 0:06:13You actually make you a economy smaller, you have fewer jobs, less
0:06:14 > 0:06:16tax revenues, so there is a big hole in public finances. What the
0:06:17 > 0:06:19Chancellor was saying is that if that happened, you would have to
0:06:20 > 0:06:23either allow borrowing to rise, which could threaten our economy, or
0:06:24 > 0:06:27you have to put up taxes, or you have to cut spending. Those are, I
0:06:28 > 0:06:32think, some pretty fundamental truths, and it is not just the May
0:06:33 > 0:06:39side that as saying that. Expert after expert, the OECD, the IMF, the
0:06:40 > 0:06:43Bank of England, the Institute for Fiscal Studies, all independent,
0:06:44 > 0:06:47making this point. Are you planning an autumn Budget if we leave? If
0:06:48 > 0:06:51these experts are right, that our economy would be smaller, and we
0:06:52 > 0:06:54would have lower tax revenues, there will be no saving from leaving the
0:06:55 > 0:07:00EU. There will be a cost that we have to make up in some way.
0:07:01 > 0:07:07Immediately, autumn Budget? The Institute for Fiscal Studies says
0:07:08 > 0:07:12that we would lose between ?20 - 40 billion in our public finances, so
0:07:13 > 0:07:16you have to either put up taxes, cut spending or let borrowing rise. As
0:07:17 > 0:07:20Prime Minister, six years ago, we got out of this hole of too much
0:07:21 > 0:07:24borrowing, an economy that was not growing, not creating jobs. I don't
0:07:25 > 0:07:28want us to go back to is where one, and that is why I hope people will
0:07:29 > 0:07:33recognise we are stronger in and Abaaoud to remain. Your close
0:07:34 > 0:07:38adviser Steve Hilton said of the forecasts, they are made up, I know,
0:07:39 > 0:07:40because I used to do this stuff for them! Let's take this very
0:07:41 > 0:07:47directly... APPLAUSE
0:07:48 > 0:07:52It is not simply the Treasury that as saying we will suffer
0:07:53 > 0:07:56economically, the IFS, the Bank of England, all these bodies. Let me
0:07:57 > 0:08:01make a point, David, then I promise I will move on. The Leave campaign
0:08:02 > 0:08:05say let's not listen to experts, but if we are going to drive our
0:08:06 > 0:08:08children on a motorway and the mechanic says the brakes do not
0:08:09 > 0:08:13work, the petrol gauge is faulty, the steering is not working - we
0:08:14 > 0:08:15would not get in the car. We should listen to experts, because they are
0:08:16 > 0:08:20giving is a very clear message of the risks to the economy, the risk
0:08:21 > 0:08:24to jobs and the livelihoods of people in our country. We should
0:08:25 > 0:08:29vote for a stronger economy, and that is vote to remain. With the
0:08:30 > 0:08:33emergency Budget, as a 16-year-old, I would like to go to university,
0:08:34 > 0:08:37how would it affect the cost of education? The good news is that we
0:08:38 > 0:08:43have removed the cap on numbers who were going to universities, because
0:08:44 > 0:08:45we have a feed system, which means that actually successful graduates
0:08:46 > 0:08:50are paying for this system, they start paying back once they have
0:08:51 > 0:08:55earned ?21,000, so we have managed to do that without a big cost to the
0:08:56 > 0:08:58taxpayer. But, frankly, if you want to go to university, almost every
0:08:59 > 0:09:02university, I think actually every university and vice Chancellor has
0:09:03 > 0:09:07said, we are better off staying because we get so much research
0:09:08 > 0:09:12funding, and they are giving a very clear message that we are better off
0:09:13 > 0:09:17staying in. Why did you say, only a short time ago, that Britain outside
0:09:18 > 0:09:19the EU would prosper and be OK? And now you are threatening a massive
0:09:20 > 0:09:28Budget! Why? APPLAUSE
0:09:29 > 0:09:32What I said, sir, is that Britain always finds a way, and we would, of
0:09:33 > 0:09:37course, survive outside the European Union, we would find a way. But it
0:09:38 > 0:09:42is my very clear view that it would be less good, that we would have
0:09:43 > 0:09:45less growth, less jobs, less incomes for our families. We would suffer
0:09:46 > 0:09:49economically. You can either believe the experts, and I think it is right
0:09:50 > 0:09:53to listen to experts, or you can take this simple view that if we
0:09:54 > 0:09:57have got free access to a market of 500 million people, that is where
0:09:58 > 0:10:01almost half of our goods and services go. If we leave, they are
0:10:02 > 0:10:07not going to give us as good a deal on the outside as we get on the
0:10:08 > 0:10:13inside. You are relying on experts, like the Bank of England, who could
0:10:14 > 0:10:16not even tell us exactly when interest rates will be reintroduced?
0:10:17 > 0:10:20He has got it wrong three times. What I would say is when I am
0:10:21 > 0:10:24thinking of buying a house, I listen to an expert. If I am thinking of
0:10:25 > 0:10:29getting into a car, I listen to the mechanic. If I'm building a bridge,
0:10:30 > 0:10:34I want an engineer. The people in the Leave campaign are asking you to
0:10:35 > 0:10:37trust in just the sense that it is going to be OK, and I do not think
0:10:38 > 0:10:45that is good enough for the families and businesses of Britain.
0:10:46 > 0:10:49APPLAUSE If you believe in the Remain
0:10:50 > 0:10:55campaign so passionately, why give people the option to leave?
0:10:56 > 0:10:59APPLAUSE Well, sir, I think some questions
0:11:00 > 0:11:02are so big that it is right they are answered by the people and not by
0:11:03 > 0:11:05the politicians, and frankly we have been having an ultimate about Europe
0:11:06 > 0:11:09in our country for the last 20 years. Since we last had a vote,
0:11:10 > 0:11:12there have been quite a lot of changes to Europe, and I do not
0:11:13 > 0:11:15think we should be frightened, in a democracy, of people making a
0:11:16 > 0:11:21decision. I will accept that decision whatever it is. But I would
0:11:22 > 0:11:25make one point tonight. Do believe it is irreversible. I think if we
0:11:26 > 0:11:30vote to leave, I do not think there is any prospect of rejoining. If you
0:11:31 > 0:11:33work trying to rejoin, I will just make the point, you would have to
0:11:34 > 0:11:38join the single currency, the Schengen zone, you'd have to give up
0:11:39 > 0:11:42the British rebate, so I see no prospect of rejoining. So this is a
0:11:43 > 0:11:46final decision. You cannot, as it were, jumped out of the aeroplane
0:11:47 > 0:11:49and tried to scramble back in through the cockpit hatch. So have
0:11:50 > 0:11:56you got contingency plans, if happens to be Brexit... Of course.
0:11:57 > 0:12:00What we would have to do is work out, as I said to the gentleman
0:12:01 > 0:12:04here, we would have to work out the right way for Britain to succeed in
0:12:05 > 0:12:09the future. But I am St Jude very clearly, I think that is the worst
0:12:10 > 0:12:14of the two options. -- but I am saying to you. I think it would be
0:12:15 > 0:12:17difficult, it would be tough. If we voted to leave, would you call a
0:12:18 > 0:12:23general election? I think it is important for us to have... The next
0:12:24 > 0:12:26step is really crucial for our country, and everybody, all the
0:12:27 > 0:12:30parties, need to come up with a manifesto so that the people who are
0:12:31 > 0:12:34taken control can actually vote the way they want the country to go
0:12:35 > 0:12:38forward, so there will be infighting amongst the Tories, amongst the
0:12:39 > 0:12:42Labour Party. Really, it is time to reconcile all those differences and
0:12:43 > 0:12:44go forward on the basis of a decent business plan and let the people
0:12:45 > 0:12:53decide where we go forward. APPLAUSE
0:12:54 > 0:12:57What I would say is that when we had the general election last year, I
0:12:58 > 0:13:01set out very clearly in a manifesto that we were going to hold a
0:13:02 > 0:13:04renegotiation, we were going to hold a referendum, and in-out referendum,
0:13:05 > 0:13:10the British people would decide, and we would accept that instruction...
0:13:11 > 0:13:14People voted on the basis of a referendum, not the basis of what
0:13:15 > 0:13:18would happen after a referendum. Inevitably, you either go one way or
0:13:19 > 0:13:22the other way. But we did not know what the options would be, how would
0:13:23 > 0:13:30would be taken forward. Louise Reilly, your question. Over here,
0:13:31 > 0:13:36yes. How can you, as Prime Minister, possibly remain if the British
0:13:37 > 0:13:42public vote to leave? You say when? Yes, when. How could you remain? We
0:13:43 > 0:13:47had an election in 2015, my party won the election, I was leading the
0:13:48 > 0:13:50party, so I was re-elected as Prime Minister. I promised the
0:13:51 > 0:13:53renegotiation, carried it out, promised the referendum, we're
0:13:54 > 0:13:56having it. I will obey the instructions of the British people
0:13:57 > 0:14:01on that basis I think it is right to stay. I also think it is right not
0:14:02 > 0:14:04to muddle up in this referendum the future of this politician or that
0:14:05 > 0:14:09politician. The question on the ballot paper is very clear - do we
0:14:10 > 0:14:14stay in or do we leave? My view is that remaining is the right answer
0:14:15 > 0:14:17for our economy, jobs, safety, the strength of our country, and it is
0:14:18 > 0:14:23an irreversible decision with no going back. You have said that this
0:14:24 > 0:14:26referendum is more important than any general election. If you lost a
0:14:27 > 0:14:30general election, you would be out of Number Ten like that. So if you
0:14:31 > 0:14:34lose this referendum, why won't you be out of Number Ten like that?
0:14:35 > 0:14:37Because I said clearly we would hold a referendum, and I would accept the
0:14:38 > 0:14:42instructions of the British people. So I think this is very important...
0:14:43 > 0:14:46Doing the things you do not want to do.
0:14:47 > 0:14:53APPLAUSE What I am saying... Just because you
0:14:54 > 0:14:56hold a referendum does not mean you have a very strong view. I do have a
0:14:57 > 0:15:01strong view, maybe it would be easier for me standing here to say,
0:15:02 > 0:15:05well, on the one hand, strong arguments, and the other, strong
0:15:06 > 0:15:09argument is, and unbalanced... That is not what I think, I really do
0:15:10 > 0:15:13believe that we would be stronger, safer and better off in. I believe
0:15:14 > 0:15:20our economy would be weakened if we leave, and that is why high of
0:15:21 > 0:15:23spoken so frankly and so clearly, I think, throughout this campaign. --
0:15:24 > 0:15:26I have spoken. If you are so confident, it be hold you to say,
0:15:27 > 0:15:31and if I lose, I quit, because it is not something I would go along with.
0:15:32 > 0:15:37It's the wrong thing to do because we held a general election a year
0:15:38 > 0:15:41ago, and my party won that election on the basis of holding a
0:15:42 > 0:15:47referendum. What I don't understand, with all the experts you have saying
0:15:48 > 0:15:51we should stay in, why the British public is more convinced? Why is
0:15:52 > 0:15:56Brexit in the lead? APPLAUSE
0:15:57 > 0:16:00I think people have found this debate and all the facts and the
0:16:01 > 0:16:04figure is perhaps quite confusing. I think at moments that has happened
0:16:05 > 0:16:08but I would say we have former pro days to do, people need to think
0:16:09 > 0:16:12very carefully between now and Thursday, -- we have four days to
0:16:13 > 0:16:15go. If all these experts who have looked at this issue to the
0:16:16 > 0:16:20conclusion our economy will suffer and there is no going back and this
0:16:21 > 0:16:23will have an impact on families and jobs and livelihoods, I believe that
0:16:24 > 0:16:26as well and it's not just because of the experts, it's because I've
0:16:27 > 0:16:30talked to car companies who are doing a brilliant job and our
0:16:31 > 0:16:34workers are doing a brilliant job making cars in Britain, and I
0:16:35 > 0:16:38worried about those jobs going overseas. I have talked to people
0:16:39 > 0:16:42making trains and planes and exporting them to Europe. Why do you
0:16:43 > 0:16:46say people are confused? If you trust people to make the decision,
0:16:47 > 0:16:50the arguments are presented and people are confused. What you mean
0:16:51 > 0:16:55is your points have not got across, isn't that what you mean? It is and
0:16:56 > 0:17:01when you haven't got the point across its frustrating, it's not
0:17:02 > 0:17:04getting through to people. I have four days to go and I will do a
0:17:05 > 0:17:08better job of getting the argument across. It comes down to a simple
0:17:09 > 0:17:12point about the economy but it also comes to a point about what sort of
0:17:13 > 0:17:15country we want to be and I want is to be a country that does work
0:17:16 > 0:17:19together with others, from what I've seen in six years and what I've
0:17:20 > 0:17:22learned in six years, there is no problem in the world that isn't
0:17:23 > 0:17:24better addressed by working with your friends and your allies and
0:17:25 > 0:17:26your neighbours and that's what we face today. We should be working
0:17:27 > 0:17:30together to grow our economies, working together to provide more
0:17:31 > 0:17:33jobs and opportunities for young people, working together to beat
0:17:34 > 0:17:37these terrorists that are trying to do with so much harm. If we walk
0:17:38 > 0:17:42away and quit and leave this organisation for ever, we don't take
0:17:43 > 0:17:45back control. We would be outside the room while the French and
0:17:46 > 0:17:51Germans and Italians were working out, well, what are we going to do
0:17:52 > 0:17:54to fix our economic problems? How shall we fight terrorists? What
0:17:55 > 0:17:58rules shall we have for the single market? They will be deciding and we
0:17:59 > 0:18:01should be there fighting. Britain doesn't quit, we fight, and that's
0:18:02 > 0:18:10how we win. APPLAUSE
0:18:11 > 0:18:14The EU used to have 20% of world trade. It's now dropped to 15%. Is
0:18:15 > 0:18:18that a success story? Sir, what's happened is you've seen the rise of
0:18:19 > 0:18:22countries like China and India, big economies that we need to trade with
0:18:23 > 0:18:27more, but European trade and European economies have grown a
0:18:28 > 0:18:33great amount since we joined in 1972. It struck from 20, to 15%.
0:18:34 > 0:18:40Because of the share of the total. Drops. It's increased as an entity
0:18:41 > 0:18:46it's increased, I don't want to baffle you with statistics. Let me
0:18:47 > 0:18:52give you two statistics. 80% of our economy is services, things like
0:18:53 > 0:18:55insurance, banking, architecture, sales and advertising, 80%. We sell
0:18:56 > 0:18:59more in services today to Luxembourg than we do to the whole of India. Of
0:19:00 > 0:19:03course we need to do better with India, we need a trade deal with
0:19:04 > 0:19:08India, but the idea we should cut ourselves off from our main market I
0:19:09 > 0:19:13think his economic madness. What we need to do is work to succeed in our
0:19:14 > 0:19:16main market then open up the other market. Let's move on, I'm sure the
0:19:17 > 0:19:22economy will come up again and again, a question from June, please.
0:19:23 > 0:19:27Mr Cameron, why in your manifesto did you say you would bring down the
0:19:28 > 0:19:30number of EU immigrants down to the thousands, when you knew very well
0:19:31 > 0:19:39you couldn't control these numbers? APPLAUSE
0:19:40 > 0:19:43I believe that immigration, net migration on that scale is the right
0:19:44 > 0:19:46ambition for our country. Every year many British people and EU nationals
0:19:47 > 0:19:50here in Britain leave and go and work in Europe and many Europeans
0:19:51 > 0:19:55come and work here, and as recently as 2008, there were actually more
0:19:56 > 0:19:59British and EU nationals leaving the UK than there were arriving to work,
0:20:00 > 0:20:02so I think we've had a very extraordinary period for the last
0:20:03 > 0:20:09five years, where we've created in Britain more jobs on the rest of the
0:20:10 > 0:20:11European Union put together. That is now changing is that the European
0:20:12 > 0:20:14Union economies are starting to grow. I think what we need to do is
0:20:15 > 0:20:17better control migration from outside the EU, that's more than
0:20:18 > 0:20:20half of the total, and then bring in the changes that I negotiated, which
0:20:21 > 0:20:24I think will make a big difference because we are saying to people, if
0:20:25 > 0:20:28we stay in, let me quickly do this, if we stay in, if you come and work
0:20:29 > 0:20:31in Britain you can't claim unemployment benefit, if you don't
0:20:32 > 0:20:40get a job after six months you have to leave, and if you do come and
0:20:41 > 0:20:43work you have to work here for four years paying into our system before
0:20:44 > 0:20:45you get full access to our tax credit and welfare system. Is your
0:20:46 > 0:20:51target store 100,000? That's the right ambition. Is your target? A
0:20:52 > 0:20:55lot of people say your failure to hit that target has exacerbated the
0:20:56 > 0:20:58argument about immigration. The Prime Minister promised it, it's not
0:20:59 > 0:21:05going to happen. Michael Gove said, if we leave the EU, I can do it in
0:21:06 > 0:21:07Parliament. I accept it's very challenging controlling immigration.
0:21:08 > 0:21:11More than half comes from outside the EU when we found that quite
0:21:12 > 0:21:16difficult even though we've closed down bogus colleges and all the rest
0:21:17 > 0:21:22of it. Inside the EU we've had this very strong growth here and weak
0:21:23 > 0:21:25growth in the rest of Europe, that is changing, but what I'd say very
0:21:26 > 0:21:27frankly as there are good ways of controlling immigration and these
0:21:28 > 0:21:30welfare changes are good ways, and bad ways of controlling immigration,
0:21:31 > 0:21:33and that would be leaving the single market, damaging our economy,
0:21:34 > 0:21:38costing jobs and hurting British working families in the process.
0:21:39 > 0:21:42That's not the right way to control immigration. We have a lot of hands
0:21:43 > 0:21:45up. Let's hear from the audience. I understand the importance in
0:21:46 > 0:21:50relation to experts but that's exactly where the problem is. People
0:21:51 > 0:21:53become so disillusioned with the establishment, they refuse to listen
0:21:54 > 0:21:59to the experts, that's why 3.18 million people voted for Ukip and I
0:22:00 > 0:22:04also believe at the end of the day whether we vote to Leave or remain
0:22:05 > 0:22:09Remain, is the people's choice and as the Prime Minister you would say
0:22:10 > 0:22:13we should do the politics of hope, we should do our best, and we
0:22:14 > 0:22:17shouldn't have a budget that is the threatening the pensioner or other
0:22:18 > 0:22:24people. Let's stick with immigration. You said Europe is
0:22:25 > 0:22:28increasing work wise, Spain, Greece, Italy, France have got higher
0:22:29 > 0:22:31unemployment than we have and no prospect of increasing jobs. Why are
0:22:32 > 0:22:36you telling us that Europe is increasing, when it's not? Europeans
0:22:37 > 0:22:40come here because they see the problem at home, and yet we try and
0:22:41 > 0:22:43stay in Europe and not see the problem is that they have got. You
0:22:44 > 0:22:47want to spend five minutes with me, I can tell you all about it.
0:22:48 > 0:22:52APPLAUSE Hang on, Prime Minister. Briefly,
0:22:53 > 0:22:56the facts are, you are right about the Greek economy, it's still in
0:22:57 > 0:23:00very great difficulty. The Spanish economy is growing, the French
0:23:01 > 0:23:02economy is growing, the German economy is growing, that is
0:23:03 > 0:23:07beginning to change and you can see that. The Irish economy grew 7% last
0:23:08 > 0:23:11year, more than twice as fast as we did. I want to stick with the
0:23:12 > 0:23:17immigration point, who wants to speak? New with the spectacle. I
0:23:18 > 0:23:20think it's an illogical thing to understand that if we have
0:23:21 > 0:23:23absolutely no limitations on immigration from the EU that people
0:23:24 > 0:23:27are robbers Lee Byrne to immigrate over here, we have a public sector,
0:23:28 > 0:23:34we have our NHS that is under tremendous strain at the moment, --
0:23:35 > 0:23:37people are going to immigrate over here. If we don't put a limit on
0:23:38 > 0:23:40this immigration and the only way to do that is to leave the single
0:23:41 > 0:23:45market, then everything is going to get flooded. You are not doing
0:23:46 > 0:23:49anything to counterbalance all the immigration coming into these
0:23:50 > 0:23:51services. Let's take the health service, an important point. What
0:23:52 > 0:23:57I'd say is we are putting more money into the NHS. We can argue we should
0:23:58 > 0:24:00put even more in, let's work out how to get the growth into our economy
0:24:01 > 0:24:05into the NHS but when you listen to the people in the NHS, the Royal
0:24:06 > 0:24:08College of midwives, the Royal College of Art positions, Simon
0:24:09 > 0:24:15Stevens who runs the NHS, the trade unions who work in the NHS, they all
0:24:16 > 0:24:19want is to remain in reformed -- they want is to remain in a reformed
0:24:20 > 0:24:24Europe, because it's better for the NHS. You talk about a reformed
0:24:25 > 0:24:27European Union that we are part of, fair enough, you have negotiated
0:24:28 > 0:24:31some changes which you say will make a massive difference to the
0:24:32 > 0:24:35immigration, but realistically it is not, it's not going to make a
0:24:36 > 0:24:37massive difference to the levels of immigration, especially considering
0:24:38 > 0:24:46there are other countries about to join. What do you want to happen?
0:24:47 > 0:24:47Leave the single market, negotiate our trade worldwide.
0:24:48 > 0:24:51APPLAUSE Let's take a moment on the issue of
0:24:52 > 0:24:54let's leave and negotiate our trade arrangements with the European
0:24:55 > 0:24:59Union. This is to stop immigration, that's what she said. Some people
0:25:00 > 0:25:04think that's what we should do, the best trade deal Europe has ever done
0:25:05 > 0:25:07is with Canada, it's taken seven years to negotiate, it still hasn't
0:25:08 > 0:25:11been completed, it doesn't give full access is for services and farmers,
0:25:12 > 0:25:14so what we have been looking at, this is so important for people
0:25:15 > 0:25:20watching this, if we vote to leave we are facing potentially a decade
0:25:21 > 0:25:24of uncertainty. Two years to get out of the European Union, seven years
0:25:25 > 0:25:26to negotiate a trade deal with the European Union, and for young people
0:25:27 > 0:25:30starting out on their working life that means a whole decade of not
0:25:31 > 0:25:36knowing the direction in which their country is going. I think that would
0:25:37 > 0:25:40be a mistake for our country. APPLAUSE
0:25:41 > 0:25:43You, sir. Fire away. Is there anything fair about immigration
0:25:44 > 0:25:48system that prioritises unskilled workers from within the EU, over
0:25:49 > 0:25:54unskilled workers who are coming from outside the EU?
0:25:55 > 0:25:59APPLAUSE Sir, we effectively have two
0:26:00 > 0:26:01systems, we have a system inside the European Union will British
0:26:02 > 0:26:05nationals who want to go and work in Spain or Italy or France or
0:26:06 > 0:26:08elsewhere are able to do that and European nationals can come and work
0:26:09 > 0:26:14here, and from outside the European Union we have a points -based system
0:26:15 > 0:26:16where we only take people in if they have skills and we have gaps in
0:26:17 > 0:26:20those skills. So the argument, the answer and argument we have to make
0:26:21 > 0:26:24with ourselves is to think is it really worth leaving the single
0:26:25 > 0:26:28market, damaging our economy, in order to try to make progress with
0:26:29 > 0:26:32this issue? I don't think it is. Those Leave campaigners who say they
0:26:33 > 0:26:36want an Australian points style system for inside the EU, Australia
0:26:37 > 0:26:41has more than twice as much net migration per head as we do. There's
0:26:42 > 0:26:46no silver bullet this issue. No simple way of solving this issue.
0:26:47 > 0:26:48Prime Minister, if you left the EU there would be a silver bullet
0:26:49 > 0:26:53because then you have total control over the number of people coming in?
0:26:54 > 0:26:59APPLAUSE First of all, you don't have
0:27:00 > 0:27:03control... Why don't you have control? The we have more than half
0:27:04 > 0:27:08coming from outside the EU. Why don't you have control over that?
0:27:09 > 0:27:12That's more than half, you have to work on that, it takes time and it's
0:27:13 > 0:27:16been difficult. Inside the EU is what I'm arguing... What do you
0:27:17 > 0:27:20mean, it's been difficult? You mean you haven't achieved it. Why has it
0:27:21 > 0:27:26been difficult? Lots of people want to come and study and work and live
0:27:27 > 0:27:30in our country. We've taken all the -- we've taken a lot of steps. But
0:27:31 > 0:27:33it's your decision as Prime Minister. I'm explaining why their
0:27:34 > 0:27:39has been a difficult thing to do, but the real argument here is do we
0:27:40 > 0:27:42want to leave the single market and damage our economy in order to try
0:27:43 > 0:27:46and deal with this issue? I think that is the wrong way to go because
0:27:47 > 0:27:49you are going to be cutting jobs, cutting livelihoods, harming the
0:27:50 > 0:27:53interests of families in our country and that isn't what we should be
0:27:54 > 0:27:57doing. Lots of hands up, I want to ask one thing, your Home Secretary
0:27:58 > 0:28:01Theresa May has said there is some changes coming up in free movement
0:28:02 > 0:28:05rules in the EU and we should look for further reform in the future.
0:28:06 > 0:28:12You saying as part of this campaign, don't worry, we are going to cut on
0:28:13 > 0:28:15EU entry to this country in the way Theresa May suggests? What she is
0:28:16 > 0:28:18saying is there is that a set of reforms coming in if we stay which
0:28:19 > 0:28:24we have negotiated. There's the changes to welfare. Which you have
0:28:25 > 0:28:28done. She says there will be further reform. There are welfare changes
0:28:29 > 0:28:30which make a difference, we have also got further changes to make
0:28:31 > 0:28:34sure we can throw at criminals, that we can stop people with sham
0:28:35 > 0:28:37marriages, that people who are third country nationals can't come in
0:28:38 > 0:28:42because of a marriage they have made. Those changes are coming. We
0:28:43 > 0:28:45are reopening the free -- the freedom of movement directive. This
0:28:46 > 0:28:51is an ongoing process, the more we can do, the better. The man over
0:28:52 > 0:28:58there. Mr Cameron, you keep saying that you propose to stop immigrants
0:28:59 > 0:29:03claiming benefits, is this just a proposal, or can you enforce it or
0:29:04 > 0:29:10have you got to go back to the EU to get it in forced? Yes, sir, it's
0:29:11 > 0:29:13agreed by the 27 other prime ministers and presidents. It's part
0:29:14 > 0:29:17of what will become a legally binding document and these changes
0:29:18 > 0:29:20are coming in, the head of the European Parliament has said that as
0:29:21 > 0:29:25well. These are things, they come in, if we vote Yes to remain in a
0:29:26 > 0:29:28reformed European Union on Thursday, those proposals get put in front of
0:29:29 > 0:29:34the European Parliament and start to be passed straightaway. What happens
0:29:35 > 0:29:40if somebody vetoes you? They have all agreed they won't. Can we
0:29:41 > 0:29:44believe that? This is part of the document that is a legally binding
0:29:45 > 0:29:47agreement and I'm very confident, I wouldn't be standing this saying to
0:29:48 > 0:29:51you if I didn't believe it, I'm very confident all of these changes will
0:29:52 > 0:29:56come in and they are significant. To the lady who said, will it have an
0:29:57 > 0:30:01effect, today, someone can come into our country, get a job and get on
0:30:02 > 0:30:06top of their first year's salary ?10,000 in extra benefits. Now, that
0:30:07 > 0:30:09will stop if we vote to Remain and my changes go through, which they
0:30:10 > 0:30:14will. But I believe will have a profound effect.
0:30:15 > 0:30:21How long are these changes meant to last, the four years etc, the
0:30:22 > 0:30:29welfare changes? How long are they going to remain? They will last
0:30:30 > 0:30:35until 2028, so if they come in... By then, there will be all sorts of
0:30:36 > 0:30:39other... That is 12 years from now. Yes, you, there. What about people
0:30:40 > 0:30:44with children still wanting to come to our country from the EU? We would
0:30:45 > 0:30:47have a duty of care to those children and families, are you
0:30:48 > 0:30:50saying that they will not get benefits, they will not be able to
0:30:51 > 0:30:54have somewhere to live? Or would we still provide the funding for those
0:30:55 > 0:31:00children to live in this country? The rules would be that if people
0:31:01 > 0:31:04come here to work, and had access to the welfare system, instead of the
0:31:05 > 0:31:07instant access they get now, with tax credits, child tax credits and
0:31:08 > 0:31:12the rest of it, they would have to work for four years before they got
0:31:13 > 0:31:17full access. That is a significant change... But what if they couldn't
0:31:18 > 0:31:20get any work? And they have got children? If they cannot get work
0:31:21 > 0:31:26and they cannot support themselves, they have to go home. They too. This
0:31:27 > 0:31:35is very important. We would have a duty of care to those children when
0:31:36 > 0:31:37they came to the country. Because they are children. The freedom to
0:31:38 > 0:31:40work is not an unqualified right, this is really important, I am not
0:31:41 > 0:31:43sure we have got this across. If you cannot support yourself and you
0:31:44 > 0:31:46cannot find a job, you have to go home. That is being strengthened
0:31:47 > 0:31:51under our rules. It is very important, because it is the freedom
0:31:52 > 0:31:57of movement to work, not to claim. OK, we will move on, yes. Mr
0:31:58 > 0:32:02Cameron, you say that your policy that you have negotiated with Europe
0:32:03 > 0:32:06cannot be overruled. It can. So are you really the 21st century Neville
0:32:07 > 0:32:14Chamberlain waving a piece of paper in the air, saying to the public,
0:32:15 > 0:32:17this is what I have, I have this promise, where a dictatorship in
0:32:18 > 0:32:23Europe can overrule it? APPLAUSE
0:32:24 > 0:32:27Simple question, yes or no please! The other 27 Prime Ministers and
0:32:28 > 0:32:32presidents have agreed it, and they know if Britain votes to remain,
0:32:33 > 0:32:37they will implement it. I think, you know, this is not an empire or
0:32:38 > 0:32:40dictatorship... It is the principal. We are proving through this
0:32:41 > 0:32:44referendum that if Britain wants to leave this organisation, we can. We
0:32:45 > 0:32:49are a sovereign country, we choose to join Nato or the EU, and if we
0:32:50 > 0:32:56choose to leave, we can leave. But if we do, that is it. We are walking
0:32:57 > 0:32:59out the door, we are quitting, giving up on this organisation
0:33:00 > 0:33:02which, even if we leave, will have a huge effect on our lives, our
0:33:03 > 0:33:06children, how opportunities, how businesses. I do not think Britain
0:33:07 > 0:33:10is a quitter, we stay and fight, that is what we should do.
0:33:11 > 0:33:19CHEERING No, no, wait... You have made the
0:33:20 > 0:33:23point. Let me make one more point, I sit two yards away from the Cabinet
0:33:24 > 0:33:28room where Winston Churchill decided in 1942 fight on against Hitler, the
0:33:29 > 0:33:32best, the greatest decision anyone has made in our country, right? Now,
0:33:33 > 0:33:35he did not want to be alone, he wanted to be fighting with the
0:33:36 > 0:33:39French and others, but he did not quit on Europe, he did not quit on
0:33:40 > 0:33:49European democracy, European freedom. We want to fight for those
0:33:50 > 0:33:52things today, and you cannot win, you cannot fight if you are not in
0:33:53 > 0:33:53the room. You cannot win a football match if you are not on the pitch!
0:33:54 > 0:33:56APPLAUSE Let's... Let's turned to a question
0:33:57 > 0:34:02where you will be in the room if Britain remains. Michael Tindale.
0:34:03 > 0:34:07Thank you. Prime Minister, will you be to the accession of Turkey into
0:34:08 > 0:34:11the EU? I don't think it's going to happen for decades, so as far as I
0:34:12 > 0:34:15am concerned, the question does not arise. This is the biggest red
0:34:16 > 0:34:19herring in this whole referendum debate.
0:34:20 > 0:34:23APPLAUSE I cannot find a single expert
0:34:24 > 0:34:26anywhere in the country or in Europe that things that Turkey is going to
0:34:27 > 0:34:32join the EU in the next three decades. Let me explain why. To
0:34:33 > 0:34:36join, you have to open and close and negotiate 35 chapters, they have
0:34:37 > 0:34:39done one. In this rate they will join in the 3000. I feel strongly
0:34:40 > 0:34:44about this, because people are getting through their letterboxes
0:34:45 > 0:34:47leaflets from Leave saying, basically, Turkey is going to join
0:34:48 > 0:34:56the EU, not true, there's going to be a European army with Britain in
0:34:57 > 0:34:59it, not true, and we give ?350 million with the Brussels, not true.
0:35:00 > 0:35:01If we want to both macro to leave, let's not do it on the basis of
0:35:02 > 0:35:07three things that are completely untrue. -- if we want to vote to
0:35:08 > 0:35:13leave. All right, well, let's just... What you said in Turkey was,
0:35:14 > 0:35:18in terms of Turkish membership, I very much support that. What he is
0:35:19 > 0:35:24asking is, if it comes up, will you be to it? It is not going to come
0:35:25 > 0:35:28up. Well, wait a minute. It will come at some time, Michael Gove
0:35:29 > 0:35:33thinks in our lifetime or his. You say it will be three decades away. I
0:35:34 > 0:35:35am not going to be Prime Minister in three decades time! Everybody talks
0:35:36 > 0:35:41about their children and grandchildren. They will be in that
0:35:42 > 0:35:45world. If this was going to happen in the next couple of years, I would
0:35:46 > 0:35:51not supported, but it is not going to. This is about 30, 40 years'
0:35:52 > 0:35:55time, and I am not going to be Prime Minister in 30 or 40 years' time. It
0:35:56 > 0:36:00is a red herring. The people who have decided to Vote Leave,
0:36:01 > 0:36:05obviously, it is a choice, it is a referendum, but to do it on the
0:36:06 > 0:36:08basis of Turkey joining the EU, you would be voting to damage our
0:36:09 > 0:36:16economy on the basis of something that is not going to happen, and
0:36:17 > 0:36:20that would be a crazy thing to do. Why can't you just say, I want the
0:36:21 > 0:36:23world to know that I would attempt to this? Stop the discussion, no
0:36:24 > 0:36:26more talk about it. APPLAUSE
0:36:27 > 0:36:30Let me explain why Britain has always been very favourable to
0:36:31 > 0:36:34Turkey. We want Turkey to be a Western leaning country, we want it
0:36:35 > 0:36:38to be a democracy, to have a rule of law. We do not want it to imprison
0:36:39 > 0:36:42journalists, frankly it is not going well at the moment. But let me say
0:36:43 > 0:36:49again, because for people watching at home, I don't want anyone to vote
0:36:50 > 0:36:54in this referendum on the basis of Turkey joining the EU, just like the
0:36:55 > 0:36:58European army or the 350 million, which are not true. Those three, the
0:36:59 > 0:37:02three leading things on their leaflets, are simply not true, and
0:37:03 > 0:37:05it would be a tragedy if we damaged our economy, wrecked job prospect in
0:37:06 > 0:37:12this country on the basis of three things that are completely untrue.
0:37:13 > 0:37:16APPLAUSE Obviously, immigration has been the
0:37:17 > 0:37:20most pressing issue for most people. I just wonder how much you would
0:37:21 > 0:37:25accept personal responsibility for austerity in the country that is
0:37:26 > 0:37:28fuelling this? Because people are concerned, because they feel that
0:37:29 > 0:37:32there is pressure on the public services, and would you agree that
0:37:33 > 0:37:34is the effect of the Conservatives, rather than the effect of
0:37:35 > 0:37:39immigration? APPLAUSE
0:37:40 > 0:37:42Well... Obviously, I will defend all the things that my government has
0:37:43 > 0:37:46done over the last six years to try to get our economy back on track,
0:37:47 > 0:37:50and I know people will disagree with some, maybe many of the decisions,
0:37:51 > 0:37:54but I think it is incontrovertible that the economy is moving forward,
0:37:55 > 0:37:57we have created over 2 million jobs, we are seeing opportunities again
0:37:58 > 0:38:00for people in our country, and what I passionately do not want to
0:38:01 > 0:38:06happen, after all the hard work the British people have put in, is to go
0:38:07 > 0:38:09back to square one, to damage our economy, to put up borrowing, to see
0:38:10 > 0:38:12more austerity because you would have this gap in our public
0:38:13 > 0:38:17finances. I think that is the worst thing for us to do to our country,
0:38:18 > 0:38:24we do not have to do it, we can vote for a stronger economy by voting
0:38:25 > 0:38:28Remain. The leader of your campaign, Lord Rose, gave evidence and said
0:38:29 > 0:38:34the price of labour will frankly go up if we leave the EU, people will
0:38:35 > 0:38:38be better off if we'll even EU. The overwhelming majority of experts...
0:38:39 > 0:38:43Each is your leader! If we leave, you will see the economy supper. Why
0:38:44 > 0:38:51did he say this? If you look at the full context... I have it here, I
0:38:52 > 0:38:54can read it. If free movement were to end, is it not reasonable to
0:38:55 > 0:39:00suppose that we could see increases in wages for low skilled workers in
0:39:01 > 0:39:04the UK? Lord Rose, well, if you are short of labour, the price will
0:39:05 > 0:39:08frankly go up, so yes. And any goes on to say a lot of other things. And
0:39:09 > 0:39:14any says, that is not necessarily a good thing! You about independent
0:39:15 > 0:39:19organisation saying that the economy would suffer, and if half of your
0:39:20 > 0:39:22exports go to a single market of 500 million people, if you damage your
0:39:23 > 0:39:26access to that market, by definition, you will be less well
0:39:27 > 0:39:29off. We can talk about the freedom of movement, I don't want the
0:39:30 > 0:39:41movement of British car workers per or jobs to go to the People making
0:39:42 > 0:39:45ebb as wings to go to the Continent. -- Airbus wings. The overwhelming
0:39:46 > 0:39:51majority of young people want to remain in the European Union. All
0:39:52 > 0:39:56the polls do. Would it be fair on them, they are the future, if their
0:39:57 > 0:39:57future is changed in this referendum?
0:39:58 > 0:40:03APPLAUSE I very much hope... I very much
0:40:04 > 0:40:06hope, in this referendum, that people will talk across generations,
0:40:07 > 0:40:10I absolutely agree with you, sir, for young people this is a decision
0:40:11 > 0:40:13they will have to live with for all of their lives, because I think this
0:40:14 > 0:40:18is irreversible. I do not think there is any way back in, as I have
0:40:19 > 0:40:22described. I hope that young people talk to parents and grandparents,
0:40:23 > 0:40:28discuss what this means in terms of opportunity. It is clear that there
0:40:29 > 0:40:30are more opportunities for being in an organisation of 28 different
0:40:31 > 0:40:33countries, being able to live, work and study in different places in
0:40:34 > 0:40:37Europe, having the strength of numbers in order to drive the great
0:40:38 > 0:40:40trade deals we need. Our single market is a bigger market than the
0:40:41 > 0:40:44whole of China, a bigger and richer economy than the whole of America.
0:40:45 > 0:40:47We will only get better trade deals if we stay in, and that will be good
0:40:48 > 0:40:53for young people, jobs and opportunity. A question from
0:40:54 > 0:40:58porosity, please. Hi. Why do we have to keep subsidising poorer EU
0:40:59 > 0:41:04countries through our ever increasing contribution with the NHS
0:41:05 > 0:41:07and certain UK industry is being more deserving of these funds?
0:41:08 > 0:41:16APPLAUSE We have only got a minute or two.
0:41:17 > 0:41:20The EU budget is going down. 8.5 billion a year, just to give
0:41:21 > 0:41:23people... But there is no saving from leaving. If you leave and your
0:41:24 > 0:41:28economy is smaller, fewer people in work and less taxes, there would be
0:41:29 > 0:41:32a cost to leaving, and that is what all of these economists are saying.
0:41:33 > 0:41:35Again, people who vote believing there will be a dividend from
0:41:36 > 0:41:42leaving are wrong. We are going to lose money if we leave. You ask
0:41:43 > 0:41:46about the cost... Subsidising poorer countries. Some countries severed
0:41:47 > 0:41:51and the commoners and... How many countries contribute to the EU
0:41:52 > 0:41:59budget and how many take? From when we first joined in 1972 and today we
0:42:00 > 0:42:07give to a lot more than we did then. France used to be a net benefit, but
0:42:08 > 0:42:11France, Germany and we all pay in more than we get out, but we get
0:42:12 > 0:42:15more back in terms of jobs and growth and we put in. All the people
0:42:16 > 0:42:22who have looked at this age, far from them being a saving by leaving,
0:42:23 > 0:42:27there would be a cost to leaving. That is why there were proposals for
0:42:28 > 0:42:32a Budget last week. Be quick, if you would. Surely the deal on the table
0:42:33 > 0:42:35is just a starting point, it is not black and white, this is the deal
0:42:36 > 0:42:38that is on the table at the moment, but surely you will be looking for
0:42:39 > 0:42:42further reform to take to the EU on things like the principles of
0:42:43 > 0:42:48freedom of movement and other issues that are sensitive in this campaign.
0:42:49 > 0:42:52Where you are absolutely right is that if we stay, we can work for
0:42:53 > 0:42:56more reform. If we leave, reform is over, we are out, we have quit and
0:42:57 > 0:43:00walked away. Britain does have a special status. Our membership is
0:43:01 > 0:43:04not like anybody else's, we are not voting on the basis of French or
0:43:05 > 0:43:09Italian mentorship. We are out of the euro, we keep the pound, we are
0:43:10 > 0:43:12in the single market but we have kept our borders and do not have the
0:43:13 > 0:43:15Schengen system. We are out of ever closer union. This is a special
0:43:16 > 0:43:21status, and we should be working to enhance that. If we vote to get out,
0:43:22 > 0:43:25we lose it for ever. Question Time has no special status, we have to
0:43:26 > 0:43:29make way for the football! So that ends this special edition. We will
0:43:30 > 0:43:33be back next Thursday week after the vote in Preston, so I hope you will
0:43:34 > 0:43:38join us then. In the meantime, my thanks to the Prime Minister and all
0:43:39 > 0:43:39of you who came here to Milton Keynes to take part. Thank you are
0:43:40 > 0:44:12much! Thank you. who want to show us how good they
0:44:13 > 0:44:17are in the kitchen. Many of them can sing, dance, act.
0:44:18 > 0:44:21We don't care about that.