0:01:02 > 0:01:03After the referendum, political chaos.
0:01:03 > 0:01:06Tonight, we hear what the voters think. It's Question Time.
0:01:14 > 0:01:16We are in Preston, Lancashire, tonight,
0:01:16 > 0:01:19and welcome to you all and to our panel.
0:01:19 > 0:01:22The Conservative education minister Sam Gyimah,
0:01:22 > 0:01:24Labour's new shadow foreign secretary -
0:01:24 > 0:01:26one of the few people to start and end the week in the shadow cabinet -
0:01:26 > 0:01:28Emily Thornberry,
0:01:28 > 0:01:32the one Ukip Member of Parliament, Douglas Carswell,
0:01:32 > 0:01:35the Times columnist Melanie Phillips and the comedian Russell Kane.
0:01:45 > 0:01:49As ever, Facebook and Twitter if you want to comment.
0:01:55 > 0:01:58Lynn Gettings, kick off for us tonight.
0:02:00 > 0:02:03Is it feasible to have access to the single market
0:02:03 > 0:02:06and still control our borders?
0:02:06 > 0:02:08If not, which is more important?
0:02:08 > 0:02:11Goes to the very heart of what happens after the Brexit vote.
0:02:11 > 0:02:13Is it feasible to have access to a single market
0:02:13 > 0:02:17and still control our borders? Melanie Phillips, you go.
0:02:17 > 0:02:20I believe that, technically, it is,
0:02:20 > 0:02:24but that most of the discussion has been about, for example,
0:02:24 > 0:02:28the Norway model, which is the group of countries
0:02:28 > 0:02:33in the European Economic Area which have access to the single market
0:02:33 > 0:02:39but which adhere to the rules of free movement of people.
0:02:39 > 0:02:42And that is what most of the discussion has been about.
0:02:42 > 0:02:45I believe that it is possible to negotiate a deal
0:02:45 > 0:02:53with the single market without having loss of border control.
0:02:53 > 0:02:56I am also led to believe...
0:02:56 > 0:02:59- A deal, sorry, access to the single market, meaning no tariffs?- Yes.
0:02:59 > 0:03:01Just as we have at the moment?
0:03:01 > 0:03:04- I believe so... - Why do you believe it?
0:03:04 > 0:03:07Because I have been given to understand that is the case,
0:03:07 > 0:03:10but I am phrasing what I say very cautiously,
0:03:10 > 0:03:12because for every expert you talk to,
0:03:12 > 0:03:15you find someone else who says something different.
0:03:15 > 0:03:17Quite honestly, I think all of us
0:03:17 > 0:03:19are in a state of complete bewilderment,
0:03:19 > 0:03:22because every time somebody knowledgeable
0:03:22 > 0:03:24opens their mouth about this,
0:03:24 > 0:03:26you get a completely different impression.
0:03:26 > 0:03:30What I do think is that it's very tempting for politicians
0:03:30 > 0:03:34to go for the easiest option, to try and square a circle.
0:03:34 > 0:03:36There is clearly a potential conflict,
0:03:36 > 0:03:39clearly an absolutely potential conflict
0:03:39 > 0:03:42between the European Union rules that they lay down,
0:03:42 > 0:03:48the core of which is free movement of peoples, and the single market.
0:03:48 > 0:03:51And we can all hear European Union officials saying
0:03:51 > 0:03:53you cannot have one without the other.
0:03:53 > 0:03:56You are in a club, you have to adhere to the rules.
0:03:56 > 0:04:01So it comes down to who... It's a game of poker.
0:04:01 > 0:04:04Oh, really, just a game?
0:04:04 > 0:04:07- Yes, well, it's a game of poker. - No absolute rules?
0:04:07 > 0:04:09It's a turn of phrase, David.
0:04:09 > 0:04:10But the country voted.
0:04:10 > 0:04:14I don't know how many people in this audience voted Brexit,
0:04:14 > 0:04:16but I know all the evidence is that a lot of people
0:04:16 > 0:04:19voted Brexit because of control over immigration.
0:04:19 > 0:04:21Yes, what I'm trying to say is this -
0:04:21 > 0:04:23it is a game of poker,
0:04:23 > 0:04:27and it all depends on whether our future Prime Minister,
0:04:27 > 0:04:28whoever he or she may be,
0:04:28 > 0:04:32is tough enough to give the European Union the impression that
0:04:32 > 0:04:35we are negotiating from a position of strength
0:04:35 > 0:04:37and that we have what they want,
0:04:37 > 0:04:42in which case all bets are off, they will give us what we want.
0:04:42 > 0:04:45If, however, we give them the impression...
0:04:45 > 0:04:47This is my personal view. ..that we are weak,
0:04:47 > 0:04:50that we are divided, that we are timid,
0:04:50 > 0:04:53then we are giving them the opportunity
0:04:53 > 0:04:57to set the rules as they want them to be.
0:04:57 > 0:05:01All right, let's pause... Thank you very much.
0:05:01 > 0:05:04You in the third row there, yes.
0:05:04 > 0:05:07But are we now in a position to cherry-pick?
0:05:07 > 0:05:10We have voted to leave the European Union,
0:05:10 > 0:05:12so how can we now pick and choose
0:05:12 > 0:05:15the best parts of the internal market?
0:05:15 > 0:05:18I quite agree, but that's why I'm saying it's all about politics.
0:05:18 > 0:05:20Sam Gyimah, can you pick up her point?
0:05:20 > 0:05:23- Can you cherry-pick? - A very good question.
0:05:23 > 0:05:24The original question was
0:05:24 > 0:05:28whether we can get a deal around single market and not free movement.
0:05:28 > 0:05:33I voted for Britain to remain in the EU mainly because
0:05:33 > 0:05:37I believe the opportunities for the next generation made it,
0:05:37 > 0:05:40on balance, the right decision for us as a country.
0:05:43 > 0:05:48Today, our country is divided, given the referendum result.
0:05:48 > 0:05:50A significant number voted for Remain,
0:05:50 > 0:05:54but the majority in this country voted to leave the EU.
0:05:54 > 0:05:58On that basis, as a democrat, difficult though it is
0:05:58 > 0:06:01for people to accept, we have to accept the referendum result.
0:06:01 > 0:06:04What do you think was the key to the result?
0:06:04 > 0:06:08Was it immigration or the political business of leaving the EU?
0:06:08 > 0:06:11I think the key to the result was that people felt
0:06:11 > 0:06:13they weren't being listened to.
0:06:13 > 0:06:15They felt there were these bureaucrats in Brussels...
0:06:15 > 0:06:18But what do they want people like you to hear?
0:06:18 > 0:06:22On what issue were they not being listened to?
0:06:22 > 0:06:25On free movement, I think what it is,
0:06:25 > 0:06:29is that business as usual on free movement cannot continue.
0:06:29 > 0:06:32We have to do something about free movement in any deal
0:06:32 > 0:06:34we strike with the EU.
0:06:34 > 0:06:37OK, and do you think - to go to the questioner's point -
0:06:37 > 0:06:41we can have a single market AND still control the borders,
0:06:41 > 0:06:43still control immigration?
0:06:43 > 0:06:48We can trade in goods and services and negotiate a deal that is right
0:06:48 > 0:06:51for Britain, but it will require, as Melanie pointed out,
0:06:51 > 0:06:54tenacity from whoever is Prime Minister,
0:06:54 > 0:06:56in order to strike that deal.
0:06:56 > 0:06:58OK, the woman in yellow up there, second row from the back.
0:06:58 > 0:07:01I think we are kidding ourselves that they are going to be
0:07:01 > 0:07:03prepared to give us the deal that we want.
0:07:03 > 0:07:07They will want to make an example of us, because if they don't
0:07:07 > 0:07:10make an example of us, it will be a domino effect and one country
0:07:10 > 0:07:12after another will want to leave,
0:07:12 > 0:07:14and that would mean the disintegration of the EU.
0:07:14 > 0:07:17APPLAUSE
0:07:17 > 0:07:19Douglas Carswell, can you pick up on that point?
0:07:19 > 0:07:21- Do you agree with her? - Let's be absolutely clear,
0:07:21 > 0:07:25we can have unrestricted access to the single market
0:07:25 > 0:07:28without being in the single market.
0:07:28 > 0:07:31In other words, a British company would have to comply
0:07:31 > 0:07:34with single market rules when selling to the single market.
0:07:34 > 0:07:37That doesn't mean we have to comply
0:07:37 > 0:07:39with single market rules every other occasion.
0:07:39 > 0:07:42Let me tell you why we could have access to the single market
0:07:42 > 0:07:45without accepting the free movement of labour.
0:07:45 > 0:07:49Already today, from non-EU Iceland to non-EU Turkey,
0:07:49 > 0:07:52there is tariff-free unrestricted trade in goods.
0:07:52 > 0:07:54That exists today.
0:07:54 > 0:07:56There are many countries round the world...
0:07:56 > 0:07:5927 countries round the world have increased exports
0:07:59 > 0:08:01to the single market faster from outside
0:08:01 > 0:08:04than we have managed from within.
0:08:04 > 0:08:06So access to the single market is not the same thing
0:08:06 > 0:08:08as being in the single market,
0:08:08 > 0:08:11I think this may be where some of the confusion arises.
0:08:11 > 0:08:13Well, answer her. She thinks you won't be allowed to do that,
0:08:13 > 0:08:16you say, "It's easy-peasy, we can just do it."
0:08:16 > 0:08:19We already know that Angela Merkel very clearly said two days ago,
0:08:19 > 0:08:21"We want a reasonable deal."
0:08:21 > 0:08:23The head of the German equivalent of the CBI,
0:08:23 > 0:08:26the Confederation of British Industry, in Germany,
0:08:26 > 0:08:28made it quite clear that they do not want to put tariffs,
0:08:28 > 0:08:30and the reason they don't want to put tariffs
0:08:30 > 0:08:33is very straightforward - last year, we bought £60 billion worth
0:08:33 > 0:08:36of more stuff from them than they bought from us.
0:08:36 > 0:08:39They are the principal beneficiaries.
0:08:39 > 0:08:41We've heard that all during the campaign,
0:08:41 > 0:08:44but why should they suddenly say, "Well, you've gone, you can
0:08:44 > 0:08:46"have exactly the same deal as you had before"?
0:08:46 > 0:08:49Because it's in the interests of German workers,
0:08:49 > 0:08:51French factories, Polish industrialists -
0:08:51 > 0:08:53it's in their best interest.
0:08:53 > 0:08:55Emily Thornberry, do you believe
0:08:55 > 0:08:58we can have exactly the same deal like Douglas says?
0:08:58 > 0:09:01I think it's all nonsense. I think it's all nonsense.
0:09:05 > 0:09:07I'm very disappointed in this result,
0:09:07 > 0:09:09I'll lay my cards on the table.
0:09:09 > 0:09:12I campaigned really hard for us to remain in the European Union,
0:09:12 > 0:09:13and the reason I did
0:09:13 > 0:09:16was because I thought that it was best for our country.
0:09:16 > 0:09:18I didn't think the European Union is perfect,
0:09:18 > 0:09:21but I think it's best for our country.
0:09:21 > 0:09:25But now what we have ended up with is a Tory government who have
0:09:25 > 0:09:28put this referendum in front of the British people,
0:09:28 > 0:09:30they have no plan B, they have no answers to any
0:09:30 > 0:09:33of these questions now, they're the ones who put...
0:09:33 > 0:09:35They said, "Oh, let the British people decide,"
0:09:35 > 0:09:37and yet they had no plan in case the British people decided
0:09:37 > 0:09:39not to do what the Prime Minister wanted.
0:09:39 > 0:09:43But Douglas Carswell has a reply, he says it'll just carry on as before.
0:09:43 > 0:09:46I'll tell you what - if you listen to Douglas Carswell,
0:09:46 > 0:09:48and then two minutes later...
0:09:48 > 0:09:49- Six...- Hang on, hang on.
0:09:49 > 0:09:51..and then two minutes later, you listen to Boris Johnson,
0:09:51 > 0:09:54then two minutes later, you listen to Michael Gove,
0:09:54 > 0:09:56they'll all say different things because they do not have
0:09:56 > 0:09:59a clear idea of what it is they have done to this country.
0:09:59 > 0:10:03They have led us into this dark space and abandoned us,
0:10:03 > 0:10:05and we do not know what it now means.
0:10:05 > 0:10:07It's all very well for people to say,
0:10:07 > 0:10:09"We'll negotiate a decent deal,
0:10:09 > 0:10:11"and of course the Europeans will be very kind to us."
0:10:11 > 0:10:14We do not know that and we are now in their hands,
0:10:14 > 0:10:17- and as for taking back control... - Point made, Emily.
0:10:17 > 0:10:19..that is not what has happened.
0:10:19 > 0:10:23Six out of ten people in Lancashire voted to leave the EU.
0:10:23 > 0:10:25It's quite extraordinary that the shadow minister - there is
0:10:25 > 0:10:28still a shadow minister left in the Labour Party -
0:10:28 > 0:10:30should say that we should disregard the outcome.
0:10:30 > 0:10:31That is quite extraordinary.
0:10:31 > 0:10:33I didn't say that. I didn't say that.
0:10:33 > 0:10:35APPLAUSE I'll come back to you.
0:10:35 > 0:10:38The man at the very back with the spectacles. Yes.
0:10:38 > 0:10:40I voted in, but the majority of people
0:10:40 > 0:10:44that I spoke to the day after and said, "Who voted out?"
0:10:44 > 0:10:47I said, "Why did you vote out?"
0:10:47 > 0:10:49and not one of them could give me a reason.
0:10:49 > 0:10:53They all said, "Well, I was convinced it would
0:10:53 > 0:10:57"solve the immigration problem, I'm not sure," so there's so...
0:10:57 > 0:10:59Like the Labour lady said.
0:10:59 > 0:11:02I think the man in front of you who thrust his hand up,
0:11:02 > 0:11:05did you vote out? Yes, you explain.
0:11:05 > 0:11:07Yes, the reason I voted out
0:11:07 > 0:11:11is because when David Cameron went to renegotiate our deal
0:11:11 > 0:11:17with the European Union, I don't think he got what we wanted.
0:11:17 > 0:11:19APPLAUSE
0:11:22 > 0:11:26And some people think there's a whiff of betrayal
0:11:26 > 0:11:31by the Brexit campaign, do you think you're going to get what you wanted?
0:11:31 > 0:11:35I think we are better off out of the EU,
0:11:35 > 0:11:39because I think we have too many chiefs and not enough Indians
0:11:39 > 0:11:44where the EU are concerned. They're telling us what to do all the time.
0:11:44 > 0:11:46OK. Russell Kane.
0:11:48 > 0:11:50Well, as more of a layman, as far as I understand,
0:11:50 > 0:11:54you can't have access to the single market... Sorry, not access.
0:11:54 > 0:11:57You can't be IN the single market without having
0:11:57 > 0:11:58the free movement of labour.
0:11:58 > 0:12:00You have to have both those things together.
0:12:00 > 0:12:03Now, I'm in a bit of a weird position. Cards on the table.
0:12:03 > 0:12:04Yes, I did vote Remain. I think
0:12:04 > 0:12:07there's a lot of things wrong with the EU. I did vote Remain.
0:12:07 > 0:12:10But at the weekend, I don't hang out in showbiz circles,
0:12:10 > 0:12:12I hang out with my cousins, my family,
0:12:12 > 0:12:13I still live near where I grew up,
0:12:13 > 0:12:15and there's no-one amongst my family group
0:12:15 > 0:12:17that didn't vote Brexit. No-one.
0:12:17 > 0:12:19And I can tell you now,
0:12:19 > 0:12:21I can dress it up for you but I'm not going to -
0:12:21 > 0:12:22these people voted cos they think
0:12:22 > 0:12:25there are immigrants coming over here driving down wages.
0:12:25 > 0:12:27This is what people are scared about in Essex,
0:12:27 > 0:12:30where I'm growing up. This is what people are saying.
0:12:30 > 0:12:32On the day of the vote there were...
0:12:32 > 0:12:34I won't say who, members of my family dancing round
0:12:34 > 0:12:36saying, "They're going home, they're going home!"
0:12:36 > 0:12:39These are carpenters, plumbers and labourers who think
0:12:39 > 0:12:42their wages will increase once these people leave the country.
0:12:42 > 0:12:44So if you join the single market
0:12:44 > 0:12:47and then we have free movement of labour,
0:12:47 > 0:12:48you'll have a lot of angry people
0:12:48 > 0:12:51wondering what the hell they voted for in the first place.
0:12:51 > 0:12:53It was Boris and the likes who took us into this.
0:12:53 > 0:12:55It's absolutely disgusting today
0:12:55 > 0:12:57that the clown with the hammer has left the circus
0:12:57 > 0:12:59and the mess he created and vacated the scene.
0:12:59 > 0:13:01APPLAUSE
0:13:05 > 0:13:07We've heard from a number of people who voted Remain.
0:13:07 > 0:13:11Can I hear from someone who voted Leave, who rather share the view...
0:13:11 > 0:13:12You did, over there. Yes.
0:13:12 > 0:13:14The woman in green there. Yes.
0:13:14 > 0:13:18I think the euro has problems, they can't control the borders.
0:13:18 > 0:13:24It does affect the EU, and the profligacy and the rules of the EU,
0:13:24 > 0:13:28we have been a great trading nation in our own right
0:13:28 > 0:13:30and we could be still. We can access other markets.
0:13:30 > 0:13:33Do you think you'll get what you wanted or what you voted for?
0:13:33 > 0:13:35There'll be strong negotiation,
0:13:35 > 0:13:39but I heard the French were a bit gentle on this immigration.
0:13:39 > 0:13:43Anybody else who voted Brexit? Let's just stick with that for a moment.
0:13:43 > 0:13:45You, sir, down there. Yes.
0:13:45 > 0:13:48I voted Brexit and I did so entirely on economic grounds,
0:13:48 > 0:13:50not migration grounds.
0:13:50 > 0:13:54Indeed, I hope the UK government going forward
0:13:54 > 0:13:59will sustain our overseas budget, overseas aid budget.
0:13:59 > 0:14:01But, Mr Carswell, I, like you,
0:14:01 > 0:14:06voted to get out from underneath an EU that doesn't work.
0:14:06 > 0:14:08I, like you, I suspect,
0:14:08 > 0:14:11want to see hotshot trade negotiators sent across the globe
0:14:11 > 0:14:15to bring back lucrative deals to make us richer and more successful.
0:14:15 > 0:14:16But unlike you, I don't work for
0:14:16 > 0:14:21an odious individual who stands in front of dreadful posters.
0:14:21 > 0:14:23APPLAUSE
0:14:27 > 0:14:30OK. One more thing,
0:14:30 > 0:14:33because we have heard some people talking about why they voted Brexit.
0:14:33 > 0:14:36I'd like to hear if there is anybody who wanted to put the point that
0:14:36 > 0:14:40you made about your family, carpenters and plumbers
0:14:40 > 0:14:43saying, "When we have fewer people here, wages will rise."
0:14:43 > 0:14:45Do you agree with that, sir? You in blue?
0:14:45 > 0:14:49- I'm a plumber.- Oh, good. - And I see this across our industry,
0:14:49 > 0:14:53businesses using cheaper labour, which is their choice, of course,
0:14:53 > 0:14:56but it is affecting our work.
0:14:56 > 0:14:58And how did you vote?
0:14:58 > 0:15:01- Leave, sorry, yeah.- And what do you think will happen now?
0:15:01 > 0:15:04- You can put down your hand. - Sorry, I forgot!- It's all right.
0:15:04 > 0:15:07I think it could slow it down a little bit, I hope.
0:15:07 > 0:15:10That's all. Do you expect immigration to stop or not?
0:15:10 > 0:15:11- No.- No, OK.
0:15:11 > 0:15:13No, we've heard from you already.
0:15:13 > 0:15:15You in the second row, yes.
0:15:15 > 0:15:19I'm a little annoyed at how people keep on typecasting
0:15:19 > 0:15:21- people who voted Leave. - APPLAUSE
0:15:21 > 0:15:24I know a lot of people who are highly educated.
0:15:24 > 0:15:26They are a broad range of ages.
0:15:26 > 0:15:29And I'm getting quite annoyed with it.
0:15:29 > 0:15:32I have friends and family, who I love on, both sides,
0:15:32 > 0:15:35but I'm getting annoyed with what's happening on social media,
0:15:35 > 0:15:37people calling people racist and bigots.
0:15:37 > 0:15:39The people I know who voted Leave are not like that
0:15:39 > 0:15:43and I think the media has a lot to ask for.
0:15:43 > 0:15:46It is further fuelling the divisions in society, and I think
0:15:46 > 0:15:50a lot of it is to do with the media, and it's fuelling a lot of this.
0:15:50 > 0:15:52How is it doing that?
0:15:52 > 0:15:54I think what's being portrayed in the media
0:15:54 > 0:15:56is swaying a lot of people.
0:15:56 > 0:16:00There are different factions now between the people who left and
0:16:00 > 0:16:02the people who wanted to remain.
0:16:02 > 0:16:04It's causing such problems in society.
0:16:04 > 0:16:09We've got riots in Liverpool from far rights and far lefts.
0:16:09 > 0:16:12We need to unite together on this, whether you voted in or out,
0:16:12 > 0:16:14we need to unite together.
0:16:14 > 0:16:16APPLAUSE
0:16:16 > 0:16:17But, Melanie, is...?
0:16:19 > 0:16:22Is it possible for people to unite in that way,
0:16:22 > 0:16:23since the question they answered
0:16:23 > 0:16:26was so diametrically opposed to each other?
0:16:26 > 0:16:32I think it's an issue which has genuinely divided people
0:16:32 > 0:16:34at a very, very profound level.
0:16:34 > 0:16:39I'm sure many of you have this experience of family members
0:16:39 > 0:16:43who are at each other's throats, who are not talking to each other,
0:16:43 > 0:16:47and that is because I think the issue is, first of all,
0:16:47 > 0:16:50very, very complicated. I think there are very good arguments...
0:16:50 > 0:16:53I am a Brexiteer, I voted Leave.
0:16:53 > 0:16:56I think there are very good arguments on the Remain side,
0:16:56 > 0:17:00and it's because the arguments are so powerful on both sides
0:17:00 > 0:17:02and because the stakes are so high,
0:17:02 > 0:17:05and it's because it goes to the very heart of
0:17:05 > 0:17:07how we see ourselves as a nation,
0:17:07 > 0:17:12how we see ourselves as a country in the world, what our worldview is.
0:17:12 > 0:17:16So I think it is a subject that is bound to inflame,
0:17:16 > 0:17:18but I do agree with you, I'm a journalist,
0:17:18 > 0:17:22and I'm reading the media the whole time, not just the mainstream media
0:17:22 > 0:17:28but social media, and the language is appalling on both sides.
0:17:28 > 0:17:31And it has definitely inflamed.
0:17:31 > 0:17:36If you have the amplification of appalling epithets,
0:17:36 > 0:17:39the amplification coming from the media,
0:17:39 > 0:17:42so it doesn't just die away, but it's being reproduced.
0:17:42 > 0:17:48You have mainstream columnists calling people in terms of insects
0:17:48 > 0:17:52and dogs and vermin and sewage.
0:17:52 > 0:17:55That's the kind of thing that has been said of the Leave camp,
0:17:55 > 0:17:58and I'm sure there are insults on the other side as well
0:17:58 > 0:18:00- we can talk about.- All right.
0:18:00 > 0:18:04So I think you are absolutely right, language has consequences,
0:18:04 > 0:18:06and I think too many of us forget that.
0:18:06 > 0:18:09APPLAUSE Sam. We'll come back to you.
0:18:12 > 0:18:15Uniting the country after this referendum, I think,
0:18:15 > 0:18:19is the most important thing for the next Prime Minister,
0:18:19 > 0:18:22and when I say that, it isn't just the social fabric
0:18:22 > 0:18:26of our country which appears to have been frayed since the referendum,
0:18:26 > 0:18:30but actually keeping our United Kingdom together is also
0:18:30 > 0:18:32going to be absolutely critical,
0:18:32 > 0:18:36and that all plays into how we handle the negotiations.
0:18:36 > 0:18:40I think it's right that we don't rush into the negotiations.
0:18:40 > 0:18:41I think what we should do is
0:18:41 > 0:18:44agree our negotiating position as a country
0:18:44 > 0:18:47and have the Prime Minister go and really bat for Britain.
0:18:47 > 0:18:49- The key thing...- Sorry. I'm going to stop you.
0:18:49 > 0:18:50How do you agree it as a country
0:18:50 > 0:18:53when people have completely different views? Or do you mean
0:18:53 > 0:18:55just the Prime Minister should agree it or the Tory party?
0:18:55 > 0:18:59Well, I am backing, to put my cards on the table, Theresa May
0:18:59 > 0:19:01for the Conservative Party leadership contest.
0:19:01 > 0:19:04- So leave it to her? - I was particularly attracted
0:19:04 > 0:19:06to her view that we should create
0:19:06 > 0:19:10a government department specifically for Brexit with a minister
0:19:10 > 0:19:14and they would make sure we have a broad conversation
0:19:14 > 0:19:17and actually make sure we have the capacity to go out and negotiate.
0:19:17 > 0:19:20I think that is the kind of approach -
0:19:20 > 0:19:24deliberate, careful and tenacious.
0:19:24 > 0:19:27How do you unite those who felt passionately
0:19:27 > 0:19:30that the Remain campaign was the right thing
0:19:30 > 0:19:32for them and their families
0:19:32 > 0:19:33and people who passionately feel
0:19:33 > 0:19:37that Leave and the control over immigration was the right thing?
0:19:37 > 0:19:38How do you square this circle?
0:19:38 > 0:19:41You can't have one person and we'll do a bit of this and a bit of that.
0:19:41 > 0:19:43Well, I voted Remain, as I said.
0:19:43 > 0:19:46The way you approach this is we need
0:19:46 > 0:19:50and should have a close relationship with the EU.
0:19:50 > 0:19:54But it is in our interests to have reform around freedom of movement
0:19:54 > 0:19:57just as it is for a lot of other European countries.
0:19:57 > 0:19:59The challenges we face in free movement are faced
0:19:59 > 0:20:03by Germany, France and many of our other European partners.
0:20:03 > 0:20:07That is how we get them to our side of the table in order to negotiate.
0:20:07 > 0:20:09OK, Russell Kane.
0:20:09 > 0:20:13I've watched this happen in slow motion from where I live.
0:20:13 > 0:20:19The squeamishness of people to discuss immigration, in my opinion,
0:20:19 > 0:20:22is what led it to be a subject that's got the energy behind it.
0:20:22 > 0:20:25There's been a real lack of voices on the left that go, OK,
0:20:25 > 0:20:28there are lots of working-class people suffering out there
0:20:28 > 0:20:30concerned about immigration. I hear what you're saying.
0:20:30 > 0:20:33It doesn't mean you're labelling someone racist or xenophobic
0:20:33 > 0:20:35just because they're concerned about immigration,
0:20:35 > 0:20:37they're just concerned about immigration.
0:20:37 > 0:20:39That should be addressed, talked about,
0:20:39 > 0:20:42brought into open water and discussed.
0:20:43 > 0:20:44There's no-one on the left.
0:20:44 > 0:20:48Where are the voices on the left going,
0:20:48 > 0:20:49particularly Labour, going, OK,
0:20:49 > 0:20:52the majority of people that traditionally vote Labour
0:20:52 > 0:20:55are terrified that their wages are being driven down by immigrants?
0:20:55 > 0:20:57Let's shout the argument from the rooftops.
0:20:57 > 0:21:00And let's own it and that would steal the energy from the right wing
0:21:00 > 0:21:03that have been discussing immigration in this debate.
0:21:03 > 0:21:05Where are they, then, Emily?
0:21:06 > 0:21:10I went up and down the country and listened to what people said.
0:21:10 > 0:21:12And from the view of London,
0:21:12 > 0:21:15it looked like the vote was going to go to Remain,
0:21:15 > 0:21:18but I was always very worried and I thought it would go the other way.
0:21:18 > 0:21:21I went to Warrington and spoke to people when I was there
0:21:21 > 0:21:26and again I heard up and down country, half of the country
0:21:26 > 0:21:29felt that the current system does not look after them.
0:21:29 > 0:21:32You hear about this economic miracle and half the country go,
0:21:32 > 0:21:36- "What economic miracle?"- Russell is saying it's Labour's failure...
0:21:36 > 0:21:40- Hang on.- I'm not going to hang on. Answer Russell Kane.
0:21:40 > 0:21:46OK, I think that the way people talk about the threat from migration
0:21:46 > 0:21:49is they talk about... The guy at the back was saying
0:21:49 > 0:21:52they're worried about the competition, about being undercut.
0:21:52 > 0:21:55They're worried about people breathing down their neck,
0:21:55 > 0:21:58they're worried that they have to work these hours
0:21:58 > 0:22:01and these conditions because somebody else will go cheaper.
0:22:01 > 0:22:04Do you know, we can provide a domestic answer to that,
0:22:04 > 0:22:08which is to have stronger rules about how we employ people.
0:22:08 > 0:22:09We need to have a higher minimum wage
0:22:09 > 0:22:12and we need to make sure we have proper rights.
0:22:12 > 0:22:15I heard from other people... I heard somebody else say to me,
0:22:15 > 0:22:18"Emily, I'm fed up with the fact that I have two grown-up kids
0:22:18 > 0:22:20"at home with me, they don't have anywhere to live."
0:22:20 > 0:22:21We've either got too many people
0:22:21 > 0:22:23in this country or not enough homes.
0:22:23 > 0:22:25Do you accept what Russell's saying, which is
0:22:25 > 0:22:28Labour has not reacted and not responded to this?
0:22:28 > 0:22:29Well, I think ...
0:22:29 > 0:22:32You could have taken some of the heat out of the debate
0:22:32 > 0:22:34and gone, "We're going to own the immigration debate
0:22:34 > 0:22:35"and talk about it from the left."
0:22:35 > 0:22:38And it would have pulled the plug on some of the nasty rhetoric.
0:22:38 > 0:22:41The way I'm talking is the way we talk about it from the left.
0:22:41 > 0:22:44It's about lack of access to resources,
0:22:44 > 0:22:46people feeling there's too much competition for resources
0:22:46 > 0:22:49because there's not enough resources or public services.
0:22:49 > 0:22:51They worry about housing and they worry about jobs
0:22:51 > 0:22:53and I understand that and I hear it.
0:22:53 > 0:22:57Douglas Carswell, just before you start, there was somebody there...
0:22:57 > 0:22:59Who said about the poster and Douglas Carswell?
0:22:59 > 0:23:01What was it you said?
0:23:01 > 0:23:04- You didn't like it?- I thought it was a despicable thing.
0:23:04 > 0:23:08Which poster are you talking about? Are you talking about the bus?
0:23:08 > 0:23:13I'm talking about the poster where Mr Farage was in front of
0:23:13 > 0:23:15a long line of migrants.
0:23:15 > 0:23:16The breaking point one, yes.
0:23:16 > 0:23:19And these weren't Eastern European migrants.
0:23:19 > 0:23:23As I'm sure Douglas knows, this was very difficult and awkward...
0:23:23 > 0:23:26- Douglas, did you stand in front of that?- I did not.
0:23:26 > 0:23:30But you still stand in front of the 350 million, the financial one?
0:23:30 > 0:23:33You didn't like the poster, I didn't like that poster,
0:23:33 > 0:23:36I criticised it at the time and I criticised it on the night
0:23:36 > 0:23:39of the election when I was last being interviewed by David.
0:23:39 > 0:23:40Let me tell you why that poster
0:23:40 > 0:23:43was despicable and morally indefensible.
0:23:43 > 0:23:45As you point out, those were Syrian refugees,
0:23:45 > 0:23:47fleeing a war, going to Slovenia.
0:23:47 > 0:23:50It had nothing to do with the debate in the country.
0:23:50 > 0:23:53Secondly, I think that poster actually allowed the Remain side,
0:23:53 > 0:23:57who wanted to cast aspersions on the values and integrity
0:23:57 > 0:24:00and motivations of the Leavers, it gave them ammunition.
0:24:00 > 0:24:04But, you know, I've been campaigning passionately to leave the EU.
0:24:04 > 0:24:07I think people like me now need to recognise that, yes,
0:24:07 > 0:24:10we've won, but it was a very narrow mandate.
0:24:10 > 0:24:13And we need to try and reach out to the 48% recognise
0:24:13 > 0:24:16they are good, decent, patriotic people who voted the other way.
0:24:16 > 0:24:18I listened during the debate to some people
0:24:18 > 0:24:21who made some very powerful arguments the other way.
0:24:21 > 0:24:24I think we need to recognise that we need a new consensus
0:24:24 > 0:24:26and we can bring some of those people are with us.
0:24:26 > 0:24:28If I could just... One final thing.
0:24:28 > 0:24:30I think that it's really important
0:24:30 > 0:24:32that we provide reassurance, first and foremost,
0:24:32 > 0:24:35to the two or three million EU nationals living in this country.
0:24:35 > 0:24:39I think Theresa May today cast doubt on their status.
0:24:39 > 0:24:43I think she needs to urgently clarify that all EU nationals
0:24:43 > 0:24:45currently living in this country must absolutely
0:24:45 > 0:24:48have their rights here absolutely enshrined.
0:24:48 > 0:24:49Just before we... Wait a moment.
0:24:49 > 0:24:52Just before we leave you, Douglas,
0:24:52 > 0:24:55you are the only Ukip MP in the House of Commons.
0:24:55 > 0:25:00How can you belong to a party led by a man who put out that racist poster
0:25:00 > 0:25:02which you constantly complain about.
0:25:02 > 0:25:04Why don't you leave Ukip?
0:25:04 > 0:25:07You sit with Nigel Farage...
0:25:07 > 0:25:10Or maybe you're planning, maybe you're planning...
0:25:11 > 0:25:14Maybe you're planning to leave Ukip,
0:25:14 > 0:25:18but you can't be led by a man who you object on racist grounds
0:25:18 > 0:25:19and still remain an MP.
0:25:19 > 0:25:22Last time I changed from one party to another,
0:25:22 > 0:25:25- I felt it was beholden to... - When was that?- 2014.
0:25:25 > 0:25:29I felt that I had to put myself forward for a by-election.
0:25:29 > 0:25:32My constituents have faced a by-election in 2014,
0:25:32 > 0:25:34a general election in 2015, a referendum in 2016.
0:25:34 > 0:25:36I would think very carefully
0:25:36 > 0:25:38about inflicting another by-election on them.
0:25:38 > 0:25:40Maybe just change the name of your party.
0:25:40 > 0:25:42- I do think...- Call yourself a Tory or something.
0:25:42 > 0:25:45- A leadership challenge?- A leadership challenge, Emily suggests.
0:25:45 > 0:25:48All the other party are doing it. The Greens are doing it,
0:25:48 > 0:25:50Labour's doing it, the Conservatives are doing it.
0:25:50 > 0:25:53You know, I'm not sure which MP I would back, though.
0:25:53 > 0:25:58Let's be serious for a moment. Are you happy being led by Nigel Farage?
0:25:58 > 0:26:02I made it very clear in December, in the run-up to this referendum,
0:26:02 > 0:26:06angry nativism is no way to win elections in this country.
0:26:06 > 0:26:08It doesn't work and it's morally wrong.
0:26:08 > 0:26:10We're going to be in Brighton next week.
0:26:10 > 0:26:12I'm going to move on to another thing.
0:26:12 > 0:26:15We'll be in Brighton next week, and if you want to come to it,
0:26:15 > 0:26:17the details are on the screen now.
0:26:17 > 0:26:18I want to go on to another question,
0:26:18 > 0:26:21cos there's a lot going on, as I said at the beginning.
0:26:21 > 0:26:23Margaret Rigby, let's have your question, please.
0:26:23 > 0:26:29Is there no shame or loyalty with Michael Gove and Boris Johnson?
0:26:29 > 0:26:31No shame or loyalty with Michael Gove...
0:26:31 > 0:26:33APPLAUSE
0:26:35 > 0:26:37..and Boris Johnson.
0:26:37 > 0:26:39Emily Thornbury?
0:26:39 > 0:26:41It doesn't look like it.
0:26:42 > 0:26:46- It doesn't look like it. - We'll come to your lot later.
0:26:48 > 0:26:52I mean... Michael Gove has been up... He's been talking
0:26:52 > 0:26:56in television studios for the last few years saying that he's incapable
0:26:56 > 0:27:00of being Prime Minister, he doesn't have the right qualities,
0:27:00 > 0:27:02this, that and the other, all sorts of stuff.
0:27:02 > 0:27:04Then, all of a sudden,
0:27:04 > 0:27:07we hear this odd kind of e-mail coming from his wife
0:27:07 > 0:27:11kind of instructing people that he ought to be the one who's standing
0:27:11 > 0:27:15because he's the one who can bring Rupert Murdoch with him.
0:27:15 > 0:27:18That seems to be just about the only qualification
0:27:18 > 0:27:21that she claims he seems to have.
0:27:21 > 0:27:24But anyway, whatever's been going on behind closed doors,
0:27:24 > 0:27:27it's been enough to frighten off Boris, and Boris has now gone away.
0:27:27 > 0:27:31And the point is, what I said before,
0:27:31 > 0:27:35it shows that the disarray amongst Brexiteers,
0:27:35 > 0:27:37if you heard what Boris promised before the election
0:27:37 > 0:27:41and then immediately afterwards, saying, you know,
0:27:41 > 0:27:44this referendum wasn't about immigration,
0:27:44 > 0:27:46there's no problem with immigration.
0:27:46 > 0:27:50People keep being given different stories by these Brexiteers.
0:27:50 > 0:27:54So Boris has now taken away his ball and he's off.
0:27:54 > 0:27:57And now we've got Michael Gove. And what have we got with Michael Gove?
0:27:57 > 0:28:01Michael Gove says that if we vote Brexit,
0:28:01 > 0:28:04that will be a contagion, he says,
0:28:04 > 0:28:08that will result in the liberation of other countries across Europe
0:28:08 > 0:28:11and he's going to go and negotiate on behalf of Britain
0:28:11 > 0:28:14if he wins this election. Really?
0:28:14 > 0:28:16Really? And how is that going to help us?
0:28:16 > 0:28:18And in what way are the Europeans going to help them?
0:28:18 > 0:28:20Then he says it doesn't matter,
0:28:20 > 0:28:22the fact I've been insulting all the Europeans,
0:28:22 > 0:28:25because I'm not going to negotiate on the single market at all,
0:28:25 > 0:28:28I don't even want us to be in the single market.
0:28:28 > 0:28:31All right. Sam, you're a minister in the government.
0:28:31 > 0:28:34What do you make of what's gone on? What happened?
0:28:34 > 0:28:37Why has Boris Johnson given up?
0:28:37 > 0:28:39- Well...- Why has Gove suddenly announced,
0:28:39 > 0:28:41having worked with him for months,
0:28:41 > 0:28:44that he can't provide the leadership to build a team?
0:28:44 > 0:28:48- What's going on?- I'm as baffled and confused as everyone
0:28:48 > 0:28:51how two people could work alongside each other,
0:28:51 > 0:28:54hand in glove, for three months,
0:28:54 > 0:28:59to propose a historic proposal to the country to leave the EU,
0:28:59 > 0:29:03they get what they want, celebrate the next day,
0:29:03 > 0:29:06and then five days later say, actually, we can't work together.
0:29:06 > 0:29:08I'm am as flabbergasted and confused.
0:29:08 > 0:29:11But Michael Gove and Boris Johnson are skilled politicians,
0:29:11 > 0:29:14I'm sure they can speak for themselves.
0:29:14 > 0:29:16Does it reflect rather badly on the Conservative Party?
0:29:16 > 0:29:17I'm coming on to that point.
0:29:17 > 0:29:20And I think the first thing to say here is
0:29:20 > 0:29:23that despite what's on our TV screens, there is a government.
0:29:23 > 0:29:26David Cameron is still Prime Minister.
0:29:26 > 0:29:29David Cameron is still Prime Minister,
0:29:29 > 0:29:32he was at the EU Council this week batting for Britain,
0:29:32 > 0:29:35we know that George Osborne is working with the G-7
0:29:35 > 0:29:39and the Bank of England to stabilise the current situation,
0:29:39 > 0:29:43because whichever side you're on - Leave or Remain -
0:29:43 > 0:29:47it is clear that we face an uncertain economic situation.
0:29:47 > 0:29:49And it is the job of the government
0:29:49 > 0:29:52to make sure that we come out of it well.
0:29:52 > 0:29:54We saw Mark Carney earlier today talking about possible
0:29:54 > 0:29:57interest rates cuts to stimulate the economy.
0:29:57 > 0:30:01So let's not confuse the soap opera which is the Conservative
0:30:01 > 0:30:04leadership election with what is happening in the government.
0:30:04 > 0:30:06There was laughter when you said we have a government
0:30:06 > 0:30:10because nobody really believes we do have a government at the moment.
0:30:10 > 0:30:12Do you believe we have a government? The woman there in blue?
0:30:12 > 0:30:14- We do.- What do you think?
0:30:14 > 0:30:15What I wanted to ask was,
0:30:15 > 0:30:19how can they expect to be taken seriously
0:30:19 > 0:30:21to go to the negotiating table
0:30:21 > 0:30:25when our political system is in such utter turmoil?
0:30:25 > 0:30:27APPLAUSE
0:30:32 > 0:30:35Look, I would be the first to agree with you
0:30:35 > 0:30:38that politicians haven't covered themselves in glory.
0:30:38 > 0:30:41It's not just the Conservative Party leadership, Labour is in chaos.
0:30:41 > 0:30:44And if you think it's all a mess, you'd be right to think so.
0:30:44 > 0:30:48But I think the way out of it, for me personally,
0:30:48 > 0:30:52is to back the right person to become our Prime Minister
0:30:52 > 0:30:55who has the credibility, the temperament
0:30:55 > 0:30:58and the experience to negotiate in Europe, as you said.
0:30:58 > 0:31:00And I believe that is Theresa May.
0:31:00 > 0:31:02Well, you've said that several times...
0:31:02 > 0:31:04We've got Gove backstabbing now
0:31:04 > 0:31:07to somebody who he was supposed to be best buds with.
0:31:07 > 0:31:09Melanie Phillips, what do you make of her point?
0:31:09 > 0:31:13It does make the House Of Cards look like Playschool, doesn't it?
0:31:13 > 0:31:14GENTLE LAUGHTER
0:31:14 > 0:31:18I think it's slightly comic to hear politicians being...
0:31:18 > 0:31:22absolutely astonished to find there is no shame or loyalty in politics,
0:31:22 > 0:31:24but let's pass lightly on from that.
0:31:24 > 0:31:28Call me naive, but I'm actually prepared to take Michael Gove
0:31:28 > 0:31:29at face value.
0:31:29 > 0:31:31Yes, he behaved utterly ruthlessly.
0:31:31 > 0:31:33But consider this scenario,
0:31:33 > 0:31:37and I think this may be something close to the truth,
0:31:37 > 0:31:42you have Boris, we all know what Boris is, a sort of megastar.
0:31:42 > 0:31:46And we all know that Boris had to pull himself together during
0:31:46 > 0:31:49the referendum campaign, which he made a tremendous effort to do.
0:31:49 > 0:31:52He became disciplined, focused,
0:31:52 > 0:31:56we didn't get any of this absurd clown appearance,
0:31:56 > 0:31:59because he had a very serious job to do,
0:31:59 > 0:32:03and all credit to him, he did it extremely well.
0:32:03 > 0:32:05And then, according to Michael Gove,
0:32:05 > 0:32:10he kind of relaxed and became Boris again, he became shambolic,
0:32:10 > 0:32:14he became unreliable, he didn't do what he said...
0:32:14 > 0:32:18He didn't do what he was supposed to do.
0:32:18 > 0:32:21I'm only reporting what I've been reading.
0:32:21 > 0:32:24- Have you been hearing from Michael Gove?- No, I have not.
0:32:24 > 0:32:28He undertook to appoint various people, he didn't.
0:32:28 > 0:32:31And Michael Gove, by his own account,
0:32:31 > 0:32:34came to the conclusion that Boris was a flake.
0:32:34 > 0:32:38Having brought the country to this extraordinary point,
0:32:38 > 0:32:42whoever would've thought they would've pulled this off?
0:32:42 > 0:32:46Was Michael Gove going to sit back and say, "Well, he is my friend.
0:32:46 > 0:32:49- "OK, he's not going to do a very good job..."- You've given...
0:32:49 > 0:32:52- "He's going to pass up the national interest."- Why did...?
0:32:52 > 0:32:54What would you do in those circumstances?
0:32:54 > 0:32:59Why did Boris Johnson back off? Because Gove pulled out the rug?
0:32:59 > 0:33:03I am not privy to Boris' mind at all, thank goodness.
0:33:03 > 0:33:06But it seemed to me
0:33:06 > 0:33:09if you have somebody of the stature of Michael Gove...
0:33:09 > 0:33:13Michael Gove... We all know Boris was flaky to begin with,
0:33:13 > 0:33:16we weren't very sure what side he was on.
0:33:16 > 0:33:18He then decided what side he was on and we hoped
0:33:18 > 0:33:20he would stick to it for at least five minutes.
0:33:20 > 0:33:24Michael Gove was absolutely consistent.
0:33:24 > 0:33:25He took a terrible risk.
0:33:25 > 0:33:29Boris was in this, we could all speculate, for his own purposes.
0:33:29 > 0:33:32Michael had everything to lose from this
0:33:32 > 0:33:34and he did it from principle.
0:33:34 > 0:33:38If you've got a man like that saying Boris is not up to it,
0:33:38 > 0:33:43Boris then, immediately, would have his support draining away from him.
0:33:43 > 0:33:46- He knew the game was up. - Gove for leader, for Melanie.
0:33:48 > 0:33:49- I do... - APPLAUSE
0:33:49 > 0:33:52All right. You, sir. Yes.
0:33:52 > 0:33:55Personally, I'm very disheartened that David Cameron
0:33:55 > 0:33:59felt the need to resign after he's given us this...
0:33:59 > 0:34:03- APPLAUSE - ..huge decision.
0:34:03 > 0:34:06But personally, as I voted Leave,
0:34:06 > 0:34:11and I think that, passionately, we need a Brexiteer...
0:34:11 > 0:34:15leader of the Conservative Party to ensure
0:34:15 > 0:34:18that Britain gets the best deal out of this situation.
0:34:18 > 0:34:21You wouldn't want Theresa May to be Prime Minister,
0:34:21 > 0:34:24because she was, nominally at any rate, on the Remain side?
0:34:24 > 0:34:28Personally, I don't know. I think we need...
0:34:28 > 0:34:31As you were saying, Melanie...
0:34:31 > 0:34:33I've forgotten his name.
0:34:33 > 0:34:36- Michael Gove.- Er, Gove? - Michael Gove.- Michael Gove.
0:34:36 > 0:34:38- LAUGHTER - That's a good start.
0:34:40 > 0:34:43I'm pleased to hear George Osborne's out and about again
0:34:43 > 0:34:44after his week in an invisibility cloak.
0:34:44 > 0:34:47LAUGHTER AND APPLAUSE
0:34:50 > 0:34:53Shame and loyalty was Margaret Rigby's question.
0:34:53 > 0:34:55There's no shame and loyalty.
0:34:55 > 0:34:58I don't think it's an issue whether there's shame and loyalty
0:34:58 > 0:35:00when they're clambering for power.
0:35:00 > 0:35:03You don't expect it amongst Conservative politicians.
0:35:03 > 0:35:07The thing that's disturbing for me is Michael Gove has been like...
0:35:07 > 0:35:10You know those toys you pull the string out the back of,
0:35:10 > 0:35:12going, "I don't want to be leader, I'm not equipped,
0:35:12 > 0:35:15"I'm no good at being leader," for the last year...
0:35:15 > 0:35:19Call me naive, but I don't want to hire someone who's told me
0:35:19 > 0:35:21they're no good at doing the job over and over again for a year.
0:35:21 > 0:35:23- APPLAUSE - Leaving that aside...
0:35:28 > 0:35:29To answer the question,
0:35:29 > 0:35:31I always get annoyed watching this programme
0:35:31 > 0:35:33when people go off on one, so I don't want to do that...
0:35:33 > 0:35:36You don't have to watch this one, cos you're on it.
0:35:36 > 0:35:38Just to remind you.
0:35:38 > 0:35:41Why is there no shame or loyalty? I imagine what happened...
0:35:41 > 0:35:43I think Melanie hit the nail on the head.
0:35:43 > 0:35:46Gove and Boris were a great double act.
0:35:46 > 0:35:48One did the personality, one did the ideas.
0:35:48 > 0:35:49And...
0:35:49 > 0:35:52they won, they got back to the bunker and Michael was like,
0:35:52 > 0:35:54"Great, we've won. What's next?"
0:35:54 > 0:35:58And Boris probably said, "I haven't got a bloody clue. Pub."
0:35:58 > 0:36:01- APPLAUSE - And that's when he thought...
0:36:01 > 0:36:02That's when he...
0:36:02 > 0:36:06As a man who obviously cares about the country and what happens next,
0:36:06 > 0:36:08he thought, "I'm going to have to do the job..."
0:36:08 > 0:36:11- Exactly.- "..which I've said I'm no good at doing over and over again."
0:36:11 > 0:36:13- Exactly. - That's what would've happened.
0:36:13 > 0:36:16- OK. The woman there in white. - Following on from Russell,
0:36:16 > 0:36:19Sam, you were saying we have a government.
0:36:19 > 0:36:21What have they been doing all week?
0:36:21 > 0:36:24Mark Carney this morning told us
0:36:24 > 0:36:27about his contingency plan that he put in nearly a week ago.
0:36:27 > 0:36:30What has the government been doing for the past week
0:36:30 > 0:36:32and where's their contingency plan?
0:36:32 > 0:36:33APPLAUSE
0:36:33 > 0:36:36You, sir, in the pink shirt.
0:36:36 > 0:36:38The disconnect between the general electorate
0:36:38 > 0:36:40and the politicians.
0:36:40 > 0:36:44What's transpired now is everybody's in it for their personal gain again.
0:36:44 > 0:36:46That disconnect, unless they do something,
0:36:46 > 0:36:48is just going to continue, so shame on them all.
0:36:48 > 0:36:50APPLAUSE
0:36:50 > 0:36:52And you, yes.
0:36:55 > 0:36:57As a young person,
0:36:57 > 0:37:00I went into this referendum really confused and conflicted.
0:37:00 > 0:37:04After the referendum, I've come out absolutely confused
0:37:04 > 0:37:07and wondering where the hell our government are.
0:37:07 > 0:37:10I do not feel this country is being led and it's an absolute shambles.
0:37:10 > 0:37:12The government need to pick themselves up
0:37:12 > 0:37:14and start leading this country again.
0:37:14 > 0:37:16APPLAUSE Did you...?
0:37:17 > 0:37:19Did you vote?
0:37:19 > 0:37:21- Yes.- Can you say how you voted?
0:37:23 > 0:37:25You don't have to.
0:37:25 > 0:37:28All right. Obviously Brexit won.
0:37:28 > 0:37:31Do you think the people in charge of the government
0:37:31 > 0:37:34are going to deliver what Brexit wanted or not?
0:37:34 > 0:37:38I hope so, otherwise they would've let a lot of the population down,
0:37:38 > 0:37:40which isn't unusual for politics...
0:37:40 > 0:37:42Let's give it a good try.
0:37:42 > 0:37:44OK. You, sir, in the blue there.
0:37:44 > 0:37:48I think an issue is, whilst I like David Cameron,
0:37:48 > 0:37:52I think the issue is that he was too close to the action, I think.
0:37:52 > 0:37:56I think he was left in an untenable position,
0:37:56 > 0:38:00where he's had to leave because he was on the losing side.
0:38:00 > 0:38:04And that's now created the power vacuum.
0:38:04 > 0:38:07If he'd just stepped back and let someone else lead that campaign,
0:38:07 > 0:38:10and also be a better negotiator in Brussels,
0:38:10 > 0:38:14he would've been in a better position to manage the transition.
0:38:14 > 0:38:15OK. APPLAUSE
0:38:15 > 0:38:17The woman in pink there.
0:38:20 > 0:38:23I agree with Douglas Carswell, I'm part of the 48%
0:38:23 > 0:38:25and if somebody will lead strongly, I will follow.
0:38:25 > 0:38:27I'm proud of Britain.
0:38:27 > 0:38:29However, being a teacher in offender learning,
0:38:29 > 0:38:32I've experienced him twice, once in education
0:38:32 > 0:38:33and once in the justice sector.
0:38:33 > 0:38:37If you ask anybody walking the landings on this local prison here,
0:38:37 > 0:38:42nobody will want Gove to be Prime Minister because he's incapable...
0:38:45 > 0:38:48Douglas Carswell, people are talking about...
0:38:48 > 0:38:51whether you can believe what politicians say.
0:38:51 > 0:38:54David Cameron said, just before this...
0:38:54 > 0:38:55just before it was in full fling,
0:38:55 > 0:38:58"Will I carry out the instructions of the British people? Yes,
0:38:58 > 0:39:00"I will carry on as Prime Minister."
0:39:00 > 0:39:02What did you think of him standing down?
0:39:02 > 0:39:04I asked him this in the House of Commons
0:39:04 > 0:39:07and he gave me a one-word answer - yes, he would stay in office.
0:39:07 > 0:39:10There should something called decency in politics...
0:39:10 > 0:39:13- And David Cameron... - LAUGHTER
0:39:13 > 0:39:15..David Cameron...
0:39:17 > 0:39:19did promise us a referendum.
0:39:19 > 0:39:22So when I asked the question in the House of Commons,
0:39:22 > 0:39:27I began by thanking him for giving us the referendum he promised us.
0:39:27 > 0:39:30You might like the outcome, you might not like the outcome,
0:39:30 > 0:39:32you might be disappointed that he's gone.
0:39:32 > 0:39:35I'm no defender of his, but he did what he said he would do
0:39:35 > 0:39:38when he stood to be elected Prime Minister.
0:39:38 > 0:39:40- Douglas...- If...
0:39:40 > 0:39:41Douglas...
0:39:41 > 0:39:42You laughed when he said...
0:39:42 > 0:39:46You laughed when he said he wanted decency in politics.
0:39:46 > 0:39:49- Why?- No, I laughed when he said David Cameron should have stayed.
0:39:49 > 0:39:52No, you laughed when he said there should decency in politics...
0:39:52 > 0:39:54LAUGHTER
0:39:54 > 0:39:56Well, Douglas left us to join Ukip, after all.
0:39:56 > 0:40:01- Was that wrong?- Let's focus on David Cameron, that's the issue here.
0:40:01 > 0:40:05David Cameron promised a referendum, delivered the referendum,
0:40:05 > 0:40:09but the referendum went decisively against him.
0:40:09 > 0:40:11Any Prime Minister in that situation
0:40:11 > 0:40:14has to accept that it's time for a fresh start.
0:40:14 > 0:40:15He hasn't left yet,
0:40:15 > 0:40:19he's leaving in three months' time, when a new leader is in post...
0:40:19 > 0:40:22I'm trying to find something kind to say about him...
0:40:22 > 0:40:24But also...
0:40:24 > 0:40:25But during that time...
0:40:25 > 0:40:28- The Prime Minister... - Can I finish what I'm saying?
0:40:28 > 0:40:32During that time, he is doing his job as Prime Minister.
0:40:32 > 0:40:36I think it's incredibly rich to say we campaign against him,
0:40:36 > 0:40:39he lost, but we want him to be there to deliver what we campaigned for.
0:40:39 > 0:40:40What's going on now?
0:40:40 > 0:40:43At Prime Minister's Questions, he's asked questions like,
0:40:43 > 0:40:45you know, we were promised by the Brexiteers
0:40:45 > 0:40:49there would be regional money available for Wales,
0:40:49 > 0:40:54or some areas around here, extra money available for poorer areas,
0:40:54 > 0:40:58the Brexiteers promised that money would still be available if we left,
0:40:58 > 0:41:00can you promise that's going to happen?
0:41:00 > 0:41:02What has David Cameron said?
0:41:02 > 0:41:05"I'm going to have to leave that to the next Prime Minister."
0:41:05 > 0:41:07So in what way is he in government?
0:41:07 > 0:41:11When the questions are asked of the Prime Minister,
0:41:11 > 0:41:15he can answer none of them, because we're holding our breath for months
0:41:15 > 0:41:19until we wait until we get a new leader of the Tory party.
0:41:19 > 0:41:20Douglas Carswell...
0:41:20 > 0:41:23You were halfway through your answer...
0:41:23 > 0:41:27I look at some of the soap opera in Sam's party
0:41:27 > 0:41:30and some of the tragicomedy in Emily's party
0:41:30 > 0:41:32and I wonder, maybe the problem is political parties
0:41:32 > 0:41:35have become the property of small cliques at the top of them,
0:41:35 > 0:41:39and it's this incestuous game of...
0:41:39 > 0:41:42- Game Of Thrones that they play that is the problem.- Are Ukip...?
0:41:42 > 0:41:47- The Ukip parliamentary party... - Has one person, so it's united.
0:41:47 > 0:41:49- LAUGHTER - We are united.
0:41:49 > 0:41:52We had an emergency meeting of the parliamentary party
0:41:52 > 0:41:54and I agreed with myself on most things!
0:41:54 > 0:41:57LAUGHTER You, two down there. Yes.
0:41:57 > 0:42:00I was wondering about the theory that David Cameron
0:42:00 > 0:42:03being so passionately on the side of the Remain campaign
0:42:03 > 0:42:07forced a lot of Labour supporters who wanted to get rid of him
0:42:07 > 0:42:10- to vote for Brexit. - You think that happened?- Yeah.
0:42:10 > 0:42:14- I think a lot of people... - Let's turn for a moment to Labour.
0:42:14 > 0:42:18There's a question from Lydia, please. Lydia.
0:42:18 > 0:42:20Realistically, will Labour ever be electable
0:42:20 > 0:42:22under Jeremy Corbyn's leadership?
0:42:22 > 0:42:24APPLAUSE
0:42:27 > 0:42:29Russell Kane.
0:42:29 > 0:42:34OK, so on paper I am your classic Corbyn supporter type person.
0:42:34 > 0:42:38I haven't voted Labour for years, ever since Tony Blair...
0:42:38 > 0:42:42- Well, let Chilcot sort that one out. - GENTLE LAUGHTER
0:42:42 > 0:42:47When Corbyn became leader, I, like a lot of people, was really excited.
0:42:47 > 0:42:51He represented a lot of things I believe in, social justice,
0:42:51 > 0:42:54stuff like that. However, what's happened in under a year,
0:42:54 > 0:42:56he's been incredibly quiet,
0:42:56 > 0:43:00not been loud enough, dogmatic enough, forceful enough,
0:43:00 > 0:43:03not held David Cameron to account enough.
0:43:03 > 0:43:07I think there's been a disconnect between the things he believes in
0:43:07 > 0:43:11and his ability to lead the party to a victory.
0:43:11 > 0:43:14The problem we've got is all the people
0:43:14 > 0:43:17that are members of the Labour Party, that paid £3 to join,
0:43:17 > 0:43:20they're still fans of him, and if I was a member,
0:43:20 > 0:43:23I would still be a fan, but he doesn't have any support
0:43:23 > 0:43:26from his own MPs in the House of Commons, that's a massive problem.
0:43:26 > 0:43:29But for me, the thing that really let me down, Emily,
0:43:29 > 0:43:32was during the campaign, I didn't hear enough.
0:43:32 > 0:43:34Where are you, Jeremy?
0:43:34 > 0:43:36That was the killer blow.
0:43:36 > 0:43:40This is... I hate to say it and I know I'll get stick for saying it,
0:43:40 > 0:43:43but this is what's probably made him unelectable,
0:43:43 > 0:43:45he really let that debate down.
0:43:45 > 0:43:48If he was a Brexiteer, he should've come out and said it.
0:43:48 > 0:43:51It probably would've been bloody brilliant if he did.
0:43:51 > 0:43:54He would've called the EU on the things
0:43:54 > 0:43:56that are actually wrong with it, even though I voted Remain.
0:43:56 > 0:43:59It being undemocratic, bloated,
0:43:59 > 0:44:01stuffed full of elites lining their pockets.
0:44:01 > 0:44:02He could've attacked all of that,
0:44:02 > 0:44:05we could've had him versus David Cameron,
0:44:05 > 0:44:09a much better debate instead of descending into posters of Syrians
0:44:09 > 0:44:12and immigration chants and stuff like that. It would've been...
0:44:12 > 0:44:15All right. Emily...
0:44:17 > 0:44:21- You... You didn't vote for him, you voted for Yvette Cooper.- Yes.
0:44:21 > 0:44:24And you're kind of the last woman standing now...
0:44:24 > 0:44:2940 people supporting him, including you. It's a bit of a mystery.
0:44:29 > 0:44:32Where do I start?
0:44:32 > 0:44:34I've no idea. GENTLE LAUGHTER
0:44:34 > 0:44:35I think...
0:44:35 > 0:44:40After this Brexit vote, we have, and people have said it,
0:44:40 > 0:44:45we have seen the establishment doing what people thought
0:44:45 > 0:44:49the establishment does, which is just looking after itself.
0:44:49 > 0:44:53People have, instead of thinking about the jobs of people in Britain,
0:44:53 > 0:44:55have been thinking about David Cameron's job
0:44:55 > 0:44:59and Jeremy Corbyn's job, and whether they can get them or not.
0:44:59 > 0:45:02I personally think that is irresponsible
0:45:02 > 0:45:04at a time when our country needs us.
0:45:04 > 0:45:05APPLAUSE
0:45:05 > 0:45:08- Emily...- Sorry, wait a minute...
0:45:08 > 0:45:11I don't know what the establishment you're referring to is,
0:45:11 > 0:45:12but Lydia's question was
0:45:12 > 0:45:16will Labour ever be electable under Jeremy Corbyn's leadership?
0:45:16 > 0:45:20I think that the Labour Party has changed a lot in the last year
0:45:20 > 0:45:22and I think it's changed for the better.
0:45:22 > 0:45:24I think the reason it's changed is because of Jeremy's influence.
0:45:24 > 0:45:27The way in which we now talk about austerity,
0:45:27 > 0:45:31and anti-austerity measures, we have changed it.
0:45:31 > 0:45:34The meeting of the Parliamentary Labour Party, when everybody
0:45:34 > 0:45:40was having a go at Jeremy, nobody had a go at him about his politics.
0:45:40 > 0:45:41He talks about...
0:45:41 > 0:45:46The politics that he aspires is something that has become
0:45:46 > 0:45:48much more mainstream, and he has achieved that.
0:45:48 > 0:45:50In the end, what politics is about
0:45:50 > 0:45:53is about changing people's lives for the better.
0:45:53 > 0:45:56We now have answers when it comes to things like housing.
0:45:56 > 0:45:58I'm going to ask Lydia to repeat her question.
0:45:58 > 0:46:01I repeated it, you didn't take any notice of me. Take notice of Lydia.
0:46:01 > 0:46:02Repeat the question, Lydia.
0:46:02 > 0:46:05Realistically, will Labour ever be electable
0:46:05 > 0:46:08- under Jeremy Corbyn's leadership? - Electable is the question.- Yes.
0:46:08 > 0:46:13I think, for example, before we have any negotiations with the
0:46:13 > 0:46:17European Union, I personally think we should have a general election.
0:46:17 > 0:46:21Those negotiations should be led by the Labour Party and our values.
0:46:21 > 0:46:22By Jeremy Corbyn?
0:46:22 > 0:46:25Of course by Jeremy Corbyn, because he's the leader of the Labour Party.
0:46:25 > 0:46:31There is a leadership team in the Labour Party, not just one person.
0:46:31 > 0:46:34Although Douglas may say...
0:46:34 > 0:46:37What did you say? Political parties are a clique at the top.
0:46:37 > 0:46:38Well, the Labour Party is not.
0:46:38 > 0:46:41We are a third of a million people.
0:46:41 > 0:46:46Jeremy was elected by 60% of that third of a million
0:46:46 > 0:46:47less than a year ago.
0:46:47 > 0:46:50And 172 MPs want him out, of his own MPs.
0:46:50 > 0:46:55And I think it is incumbent on us to have some cool heads
0:46:55 > 0:46:57and to think through what is best for the country,
0:46:57 > 0:47:01and what is best for the country means a united opposition
0:47:01 > 0:47:02that can speak clearly.
0:47:02 > 0:47:05The woman there in the dress... Yes, you.
0:47:05 > 0:47:08Does Labour left have an anti-Semitic problem?
0:47:10 > 0:47:14I think the report Shami Chakrabarti came out with today
0:47:14 > 0:47:17was a really thoughtful piece of work,
0:47:17 > 0:47:21and she says that there is a problem.
0:47:21 > 0:47:23We reflect our society.
0:47:23 > 0:47:26It's not rampant within the Labour Party,
0:47:26 > 0:47:30but we ought to hold ourselves to a higher standard, frankly...
0:47:30 > 0:47:34- Melanie...- Politicians in our Labour Party should hold ourselves
0:47:34 > 0:47:36even at a higher standard than that.
0:47:36 > 0:47:39Melanie, do you want to answer that point about
0:47:39 > 0:47:43whether there's a problem with anti-Semitism in the Labour Party?
0:47:43 > 0:47:46I think there's a problem on the left generally
0:47:46 > 0:47:49with attitudes to Israel and attitudes to Jews.
0:47:49 > 0:47:53I think Shami Chakrabarti's report is, I'm afraid...
0:47:53 > 0:47:59I think she was trapped by her extremely narrow terms of reference,
0:47:59 > 0:48:02which have simply prevented her from getting to grips
0:48:02 > 0:48:04with the appalling things that have been said
0:48:04 > 0:48:07and why they were said by certain members of the Labour Party,
0:48:07 > 0:48:10and the report is full of platitudes and banalities.
0:48:10 > 0:48:13If I can get back to the question we were asked,
0:48:13 > 0:48:17I mean, I am no fan of Jeremy Corbyn whatsoever.
0:48:17 > 0:48:21I think he is a disaster for all the reasons that we all know.
0:48:21 > 0:48:25I'm also extremely concerned by what I read about the thuggery
0:48:25 > 0:48:27which appears to be being perpetrated by the Momentum people
0:48:27 > 0:48:31supporting Jeremy Corbyn, against other members of the Labour Party.
0:48:31 > 0:48:34So, I'm concerned about that. However,
0:48:34 > 0:48:37I think the Labour Party's problem is not Jeremy Corbyn,
0:48:37 > 0:48:40the Labour Party's problem is itself.
0:48:40 > 0:48:42If you look at the last several years,
0:48:42 > 0:48:46it has lost millions and millions of its own core vote.
0:48:46 > 0:48:47Why has it lost them?
0:48:47 > 0:48:49Because it has no convincing story any more
0:48:49 > 0:48:51- that relates to those people. - Nonsense...
0:48:51 > 0:48:53The Labour Party... Forget Jeremy Corbyn,
0:48:53 > 0:48:55the Labour Party
0:48:55 > 0:48:58- has become basically an Islington dinner party...- That's nonsense.
0:48:58 > 0:49:01..and has lost the faith of millions of working-class people.
0:49:01 > 0:49:03APPLAUSE
0:49:03 > 0:49:07Melanie, the problem with your analysis is,
0:49:07 > 0:49:10if you look to the last council elections, when everybody said,
0:49:10 > 0:49:12"Jeremy's a terrible leader, nobody's going to vote,"
0:49:12 > 0:49:15actually, we did better in those council elections
0:49:15 > 0:49:18than we had done during the previous parliament.
0:49:18 > 0:49:20That's the truth.
0:49:20 > 0:49:22You can't just turn your back on the fact that there are
0:49:22 > 0:49:25loads of people who vote Labour and identify with us.
0:49:25 > 0:49:27There are millions of people who voted Brexit
0:49:27 > 0:49:30in the north of England and elsewhere
0:49:30 > 0:49:33who are prime candidates for voting Ukip at the general election.
0:49:33 > 0:49:38The man up there, just past the barrier there. Yes.
0:49:38 > 0:49:42I'm originally from Oldham. You won a landslide.
0:49:42 > 0:49:45I can assure you, you put a red rosette on a donkey,
0:49:45 > 0:49:47they'll vote it in Oldham. I'm sorry, but they will.
0:49:47 > 0:49:48So, do you think...?
0:49:48 > 0:49:50But we don't put red rosettes on donkeys.
0:49:50 > 0:49:53We don't want to insult the voters of Oldham...
0:49:53 > 0:49:54I'm from Oldham, so I can...
0:49:54 > 0:49:56LAUGHTER
0:49:56 > 0:49:59Do you think that Labour can win under Corbyn?
0:49:59 > 0:50:00I'm a Tory.
0:50:00 > 0:50:01I couldn't care...
0:50:01 > 0:50:04Well, you can still... If you're a Tory, you ought to care.
0:50:04 > 0:50:07To me, he's a liability, so...
0:50:07 > 0:50:10Under Labour, as she said, they're unelectable.
0:50:10 > 0:50:14- So you'd like him to stay, presumably?- Yes.- Sam.
0:50:14 > 0:50:17If you're Conservative, you can look at the Labour Party
0:50:17 > 0:50:21and think, actually, the Labour Party is in such chaos,
0:50:21 > 0:50:23this should be brilliant for us,
0:50:23 > 0:50:26but we had the spectre in the House of Commons
0:50:26 > 0:50:29where the Prime Minister was saying to the Labour Party,
0:50:29 > 0:50:30"Sort yourselves out."
0:50:30 > 0:50:32This is an embarrassment.
0:50:32 > 0:50:37You've got a Labour leader where 80% of his MPs are not on his side.
0:50:37 > 0:50:41That is not good for our democracy, even though I am a Conservative.
0:50:41 > 0:50:44We do need an opposition to scrutinise things.
0:50:44 > 0:50:46He might have been... He might have been
0:50:46 > 0:50:49making a bit of mischief, because
0:50:49 > 0:50:53if a Tory Prime Minister insults the Labour Leader of the Opposition,
0:50:53 > 0:50:55it's a good chance that Labour people
0:50:55 > 0:50:58will rally round the Leader of the Opposition.
0:50:58 > 0:51:00- So maybe he was just trying to keep him there.- That's a bit detailed.
0:51:00 > 0:51:03- I don't think so.- No? You think he really felt it?
0:51:03 > 0:51:04I don't think so, no.
0:51:04 > 0:51:06Douglas Carswell, I'll come back to you, sir.
0:51:06 > 0:51:08It's almost the perfect bind for Labour,
0:51:08 > 0:51:10because on the one hand they've got Jeremy Corbyn,
0:51:10 > 0:51:13who's unelectable, but if the alternative is somehow pro-EU
0:51:13 > 0:51:17career Blairites, then they're not going to win with that either.
0:51:17 > 0:51:20But I think it's something quite sad because the Labour Party, in this
0:51:20 > 0:51:23country, I think has generally been, on many occasions, a force for good.
0:51:23 > 0:51:25It was a Labour Prime Minister who introduced
0:51:25 > 0:51:27the National Health Service and the welfare state.
0:51:27 > 0:51:31It was a Labour Prime Minister who introduced equal pay legislation.
0:51:31 > 0:51:34It's quite tragic to see the left in such disarray.
0:51:34 > 0:51:38But, you know, the Labour Party, I think, is obliterated in Scotland.
0:51:38 > 0:51:39I don't think they'll ever come back.
0:51:39 > 0:51:42I think they're very vulnerable in the north of England.
0:51:42 > 0:51:44If there was a credible party with the right values
0:51:44 > 0:51:47and the right motivation, they could displace
0:51:47 > 0:51:50Labour in the north of England, just as the SNP has done in Scotland.
0:51:50 > 0:51:53But I think something more profound is happening.
0:51:53 > 0:51:55The left, in this country,
0:51:55 > 0:51:58has always been about trying to organise our lives for us
0:51:58 > 0:52:01by grand design, and I think, in a digital age,
0:52:01 > 0:52:03it becomes impossible for politicians to try to
0:52:03 > 0:52:06organise human, social and economic affairs by grand design.
0:52:06 > 0:52:10- And this makes, I think, the left existentially doomed.- OK.
0:52:10 > 0:52:12I'm going to move on. We've got five minutes or so left.
0:52:12 > 0:52:14We're seeing the death of the Labour Party as we know it.
0:52:14 > 0:52:17- You what?- We are seeing the death of the Labour Party.
0:52:17 > 0:52:20Oh, for heaven's sake! They will not get the death of the Labour Party!
0:52:20 > 0:52:21It will get its act together.
0:52:21 > 0:52:23We need to have cool heads and we need to work out...
0:52:23 > 0:52:26You were calling for a general election a few minutes ago!
0:52:26 > 0:52:28I wanted to have a general election and I think that we should.
0:52:28 > 0:52:30I do not trust the Tories to get us
0:52:30 > 0:52:33- out of Europe without hurting people.- If Jeremy Corbyn...
0:52:33 > 0:52:35You are the roadblock to reform.
0:52:35 > 0:52:38If Jeremy Corbyn remains there and the 172 MPs
0:52:38 > 0:52:41who don't want him challenged -
0:52:41 > 0:52:43there's a challenge by Angela Eagle or whoever it is -
0:52:43 > 0:52:47and Jeremy Corbyn still wins, and you've got 172 MPs who won't support
0:52:47 > 0:52:49him cos they won't rally round, will the party split?
0:52:49 > 0:52:51Would that be the sensible thing?
0:52:51 > 0:52:53- No, we mustn't split.- I know you say you mustn't, but will it?
0:52:53 > 0:52:55- No, no, no, no, no! - How would you avoid it?
0:52:55 > 0:52:57What do you do with these 172?
0:52:57 > 0:52:59Well, as I say, I think that we need to...
0:52:59 > 0:53:01We're going through a very difficult time.
0:53:01 > 0:53:04I'm not going to pretend we're not going through a very difficult time.
0:53:04 > 0:53:07And it's being played out and people can see it, but we need to...
0:53:07 > 0:53:11People need to remember how important the Labour Party is
0:53:11 > 0:53:14to our country and a good opposition is to our country,
0:53:14 > 0:53:18and they need to calm down and think about what is good for the party
0:53:18 > 0:53:20- and come back together again.- OK.
0:53:20 > 0:53:22Emily, you were one of the people stopping the reform that
0:53:22 > 0:53:25would make the Labour Party an effective opposition.
0:53:25 > 0:53:26What are you talking about?
0:53:26 > 0:53:28Well, you're the last man standing in the shadow cabinet.
0:53:28 > 0:53:30No, no, no, no, no, no, no!
0:53:30 > 0:53:35The point is, is that Jeremy has a 60% mandate.
0:53:35 > 0:53:39We are a democratic party, you know. We are a democratic party.
0:53:39 > 0:53:41I don't know how many Tory members you're going to have
0:53:41 > 0:53:44voting in your elections, but we had a third of a million.
0:53:44 > 0:53:47- And that means something.- And your responsibility to the voters?
0:53:47 > 0:53:49- We are a large collective. - The country?
0:53:49 > 0:53:51And, of course, our responsibility is to the electors,
0:53:51 > 0:53:55and I pointed to the results in the council elections
0:53:55 > 0:53:57just, you know, very recently, which were good results
0:53:57 > 0:53:59- and we're taking it in the right way.- All right.
0:53:59 > 0:54:01And I'm not saying that, you know,
0:54:01 > 0:54:03we don't have some difficult decisions to make, and
0:54:03 > 0:54:06we need to be able to come together and work out the best way forward.
0:54:06 > 0:54:08- All right. - We are currently in a mess,
0:54:08 > 0:54:11- but we cannot remain like that for much longer.- OK.
0:54:11 > 0:54:13We'll take one last... We've only got a few minutes.
0:54:13 > 0:54:16Tracy Thompson, let's have your question.
0:54:16 > 0:54:17It's for Douglas Carswell, really.
0:54:17 > 0:54:20When can we expect to see the millions of pounds
0:54:20 > 0:54:23promised to the NHS? Cos we need it as soon as possible.
0:54:29 > 0:54:32£350 million a week is what you claimed
0:54:32 > 0:54:36- and you still stand in front of a poster saying it.- Absolutely.
0:54:36 > 0:54:40We will see more money going into the NHS. At the moment, we pay...
0:54:40 > 0:54:43- 350?- 100 million a week.
0:54:43 > 0:54:47At the moment, we pay £10.6 billion net to the EU.
0:54:47 > 0:54:50Approximately half of that, 5.2 billion -
0:54:50 > 0:54:53that's 100 million a week - will go on the NHS.
0:54:53 > 0:54:55That will come into effect, I hope, when we leave,
0:54:55 > 0:54:57which will be within two to four years.
0:54:57 > 0:55:0050 million a day, you say. What do you think, Melanie?
0:55:00 > 0:55:01Is it going to happen? Ever going to happen?
0:55:01 > 0:55:05Or was it just part of the propaganda for your campaign
0:55:05 > 0:55:08- to leave?- I am very hard...
0:55:08 > 0:55:10I'm trying very hard to suppress my natural
0:55:10 > 0:55:15and very unpleasant cynicism about political promises like this,
0:55:15 > 0:55:21but the general point remains, I think, valid for me that,
0:55:21 > 0:55:24by and large - and we can all argue about the figures - Britain
0:55:24 > 0:55:28is paying a huge amount into the EU, which is money better spent...would
0:55:28 > 0:55:31be money better spent on essential services in this country.
0:55:31 > 0:55:34Would politicians actually do so?
0:55:34 > 0:55:38Well, you know, "Are they all snake oil salesman or not?"
0:55:38 > 0:55:39is a moot point.
0:55:39 > 0:55:43But I also think - and this may be an unfashionable thing to say -
0:55:43 > 0:55:46but I think that the problems of the NHS cannot be solved by just
0:55:46 > 0:55:48throwing more and more money at it.
0:55:48 > 0:55:49I think there are serious...
0:55:49 > 0:55:51APPLAUSE
0:55:51 > 0:55:55- Yes?- I'm starting to think that I've been played.
0:55:55 > 0:55:58One of the reasons that I voted to leave was because of the fact
0:55:58 > 0:56:02that they were promised more money into the NHS.
0:56:02 > 0:56:05And thinking about it now, I'm probably old enough to know better.
0:56:05 > 0:56:11- I shouldn't have put my trust in somebody like Farage.- Russell Kane.
0:56:11 > 0:56:13APPLAUSE
0:56:13 > 0:56:17- Do you think she's right?- Well, I didn't believe it to start with.
0:56:17 > 0:56:19I don't think it was Nigel Farage that made the 350 million claim,
0:56:19 > 0:56:22though. That was Boris' campaign, I think, that made that.
0:56:22 > 0:56:24- Yeah, and Douglas. - They went along with it.
0:56:24 > 0:56:27So I never believed it anyway, but it's going to be irrelevant
0:56:27 > 0:56:30because there won't be enough immigrants to staff the NHS
0:56:30 > 0:56:32and then the Tory government will sell it off anyway,
0:56:32 > 0:56:35- so I wouldn't worry about it.- All right. Sam, you have to be quick now
0:56:35 > 0:56:37cos we're coming towards the end. Do you think it's going to happen?
0:56:37 > 0:56:41It was a cynical attempt, knowing that people care about the NHS,
0:56:41 > 0:56:45to link the NHS and the EU issue to get people to vote Leave.
0:56:45 > 0:56:46And straight after the campaign,
0:56:46 > 0:56:50they started welching on that promise. And I think that is wrong.
0:56:50 > 0:56:53No-one has retreated an inch from the promise.
0:56:53 > 0:56:56We have made it absolutely clear that we would like to see...
0:56:56 > 0:56:58350 million a week? Would you reconfirm that now?
0:56:58 > 0:57:01100 million a week was the promise.
0:57:01 > 0:57:03On the bus, it said 350 million.
0:57:03 > 0:57:04Would you reconfirm that?
0:57:04 > 0:57:08It was 100 million more for the NHS, 5.2 billion a year. There was...
0:57:08 > 0:57:12Don't blind us with science. 350 million a week, yes or no?
0:57:12 > 0:57:16100 million a week. It was absolutely clear about this, Sam.
0:57:16 > 0:57:18Emily, your go. We've got 30 seconds left.
0:57:18 > 0:57:20OK, my go, 30 seconds.
0:57:20 > 0:57:21Obviously, it was a lie.
0:57:21 > 0:57:25There's going to be a problem if we do hit a recession
0:57:25 > 0:57:28because there will be less money being paid in taxes,
0:57:28 > 0:57:30because there'll be less money being invested in companies,
0:57:30 > 0:57:32because there'll be less people in employment,
0:57:32 > 0:57:35and so people won't be able to pay the amount of tax that's necessary
0:57:35 > 0:57:38for the NHS. So, never mind the 350 million,
0:57:38 > 0:57:40we maybe end up with less money for the NHS,
0:57:40 > 0:57:42and what happens if you have a referendum like this,
0:57:42 > 0:57:45you've had basically like a pop-up political party
0:57:45 > 0:57:47with all kinds of different people just going,
0:57:47 > 0:57:49"Oh, we can get up and we can make whatever promise we..."
0:57:49 > 0:57:52They won't be accountable because they've all popped down again.
0:57:52 > 0:57:54We've seen Boris Johnson pop off, you know,
0:57:54 > 0:57:56and wait and see how many other people
0:57:56 > 0:57:58just leave all these promises behind.
0:57:58 > 0:58:01All right. One brief point from the woman in red there
0:58:01 > 0:58:03and then we really must stop. Yes.
0:58:03 > 0:58:06You mentioned the Game Of Thrones analogy,
0:58:06 > 0:58:09and I must tell you, as the president of the students' union
0:58:09 > 0:58:11of the University of Central Lancashire here in Preston,
0:58:11 > 0:58:14we've done plenty of work on trying to get people to register to vote
0:58:14 > 0:58:17and it does look like the cheapest Game Of Thrones possible,
0:58:17 > 0:58:20and in terms of Jeremy Corbyn, he seems to have actually
0:58:20 > 0:58:23stirred some movement on young people, and actually looking at
0:58:23 > 0:58:27kind of an opposition to the stale, but it takes...
0:58:27 > 0:58:28How many voted in the referendum?
0:58:28 > 0:58:31How many young people voted in the referendum?
0:58:31 > 0:58:33Not enough. I've heard different numbers.
0:58:33 > 0:58:35- Somewhere around 30%. - Not enough, anywhere near,
0:58:35 > 0:58:38and something like putting some money back into the NHS,
0:58:38 > 0:58:40that was promised, is something that might actually
0:58:40 > 0:58:43- give some faith back to young people.- OK. Thank you very much.
0:58:43 > 0:58:47Our time's up. Sorry for those of you who have their hands up.
0:58:47 > 0:58:49Question Time moves to Brighton next week
0:58:49 > 0:58:53and that is the day after the Chilcot Report on Iraq comes out.
0:58:53 > 0:58:55We have Labour's Charlie Falconer on the panel,
0:58:55 > 0:58:58a friend of Tony Blair, defender of Tony Blair.
0:58:58 > 0:59:01We have the editor of Private Eye Ian Hislop,
0:59:01 > 0:59:05who's rather less enthusiastic about Mr Blair, among the panellists,
0:59:05 > 0:59:08so don't miss it and, if you'd like to come along to Brighton,
0:59:08 > 0:59:11there is the website address and our telephone number.
0:59:11 > 0:59:15If you're listening to this on Radio 5 Live, the debate goes on
0:59:15 > 0:59:17on Question Time Extra Time, but my thanks to our panel here,
0:59:17 > 0:59:19to all of you who came to Preston to take part.
0:59:19 > 0:59:22Until next Thursday, from Question Time, goodnight.