1:50:25 > 1:50:29Chilcot, Brexit, party leadership - another turbulent week in politics
1:50:29 > 1:50:31and a chance for voters to have their say.
1:50:39 > 1:50:41We're in Brighton tonight, and welcome.
1:50:41 > 1:50:44And our panel - the Labour peer who was Justice Secretary
1:50:44 > 1:50:46under Tony Blair, Charles Falconer.
1:50:46 > 1:50:50The Conservative MP and former Army officer who served alongside
1:50:50 > 1:50:53the Royal Marines in Iraq, Tom Tugendhat.
1:50:53 > 1:50:56The President of the Liberal Democrats, Sal Brinton.
1:50:56 > 1:51:00The former Respect Party MP, George Galloway,
1:51:00 > 1:51:03and the editor of Private Eye, Ian Hislop.
1:51:16 > 1:51:18Thank you very much.
1:51:18 > 1:51:21You can use Facebook, remember, Twitter to comment on what you hear.
1:51:21 > 1:51:23Our hashtag, #bbcqt.
1:51:23 > 1:51:2583981 is the number to text.
1:51:25 > 1:51:27Push the red button to see what others are saying.
1:51:27 > 1:51:30Our first question from Mark Turner, please,
1:51:30 > 1:51:32Colonel Mark Turner.
1:51:32 > 1:51:35Aren't we better off with Saddam Hussein gone?
1:51:36 > 1:51:38Tom Tugendhat.
1:51:38 > 1:51:41Yes. Unquestionably, we're better off without...
1:51:41 > 1:51:43APPLAUSE
1:51:43 > 1:51:46But I'm going to assume that you're actually asking a question
1:51:46 > 1:51:48about the Chilcot report, sir.
1:51:48 > 1:51:51And the reality is that the Chilcot report has opened up
1:51:51 > 1:51:57an extraordinary pack of information
1:51:57 > 1:51:59that shows us that the decision-making
1:51:59 > 1:52:01of the United Kingdom was not great.
1:52:01 > 1:52:04It's shown us that the grand strategy,
1:52:04 > 1:52:06the ability to create a strategy for the United Kingdom
1:52:06 > 1:52:08that would serve not only our people
1:52:08 > 1:52:10but our interests overseas, was woeful.
1:52:12 > 1:52:15And so what we've really got to look at in the Chilcot report
1:52:15 > 1:52:19is not only what it points to in what happened,
1:52:19 > 1:52:22but also how it points to the future.
1:52:22 > 1:52:26Because, for me, the most important thing about Chilcot
1:52:26 > 1:52:28is how do we learn the lessons
1:52:28 > 1:52:31so that we don't commit such blunders again?
1:52:31 > 1:52:33OK.
1:52:33 > 1:52:34George Galloway.
1:52:34 > 1:52:37Not on a cost-benefit analysis, no.
1:52:37 > 1:52:41If you look at the cost - a million people dead,
1:52:41 > 1:52:43some of them our own.
1:52:43 > 1:52:45Billions of pounds,
1:52:45 > 1:52:49maybe hundreds of billions of pounds burned.
1:52:49 > 1:52:51Iraq in flames, Syria in flames,
1:52:51 > 1:52:54Libya in flames, Yemen in flames,
1:52:54 > 1:52:58Saudi Arabia in flames, Bahrain in flames.
1:52:58 > 1:53:03If you look at the fanatic extremism, heart-eating,
1:53:03 > 1:53:07head-chopping fanatics cascading everywhere in the world,
1:53:07 > 1:53:12including - and this is the anniversary of what happened here
1:53:12 > 1:53:15in our own country on 7/7 -
1:53:15 > 1:53:19if you just begin to add up the cost,
1:53:19 > 1:53:22then the answer has to be, no.
1:53:22 > 1:53:25Of course it would be good to see...
1:53:25 > 1:53:28APPLAUSE
1:53:28 > 1:53:30..a world without dictators.
1:53:30 > 1:53:34But if you go around the world invading and occupying
1:53:34 > 1:53:39the countries of every dictator, we won't have a world left.
1:53:39 > 1:53:40And for many people,
1:53:40 > 1:53:42there is no world left.
1:53:42 > 1:53:47Imagine a mountain of one million dead people,
1:53:47 > 1:53:51and look at the faces of the wives
1:53:51 > 1:53:54and the parents and the children
1:53:54 > 1:53:56of our own soldiers yesterday
1:53:56 > 1:54:00as they listened to the Chilcot report.
1:54:00 > 1:54:02I'll tell you this -
1:54:02 > 1:54:07Sir John Chilcot, if he hadn't already been knighted by Tony Blair,
1:54:07 > 1:54:09would definitely deserve one,
1:54:09 > 1:54:13because he recovered some national honour for us
1:54:13 > 1:54:16- with his report yesterday.- OK.
1:54:16 > 1:54:17Charles Falconer.
1:54:17 > 1:54:21Yes, we are better off with Saddam Hussein gone.
1:54:21 > 1:54:25But as George has referred to,
1:54:25 > 1:54:27the Chilcot report made it clear,
1:54:27 > 1:54:29and it was already clear,
1:54:29 > 1:54:32that we shouldn't have used force in Iraq
1:54:32 > 1:54:35because there weren't weapons of mass destruction,
1:54:35 > 1:54:37which is the reason that we went.
1:54:37 > 1:54:40And I am really sorry
1:54:40 > 1:54:43that we made that decision.
1:54:43 > 1:54:45I am sorry about the decision.
1:54:45 > 1:54:48I can't be sorry that Saddam has gone,
1:54:48 > 1:54:51because the way that he retained power in Iraq
1:54:51 > 1:54:53was by murderous brutality,
1:54:53 > 1:54:58in particular to the Shia majority and the Kurds.
1:54:58 > 1:55:02We have got to learn the lessons about when we intervene
1:55:02 > 1:55:05because it can make the position very much worse.
1:55:05 > 1:55:08Do you think, with hindsight, it was wrong to do it, period?
1:55:08 > 1:55:11I think, with hindsight, it was wrong to do it, period.
1:55:11 > 1:55:12And that is made clear by what...
1:55:12 > 1:55:14APPLAUSE
1:55:14 > 1:55:16By what Chilcot says.
1:55:16 > 1:55:18But can I just say one thing?
1:55:18 > 1:55:23I don't accept that all the deaths and the conflagrations
1:55:23 > 1:55:26in the Middle East have been caused by the invasion in 2003.
1:55:26 > 1:55:30For example, Isis started in Syria,
1:55:30 > 1:55:33where, as everybody knows, there was no intervention,
1:55:33 > 1:55:35and then came over the border into Iraq.
1:55:35 > 1:55:40There have been a whole range of contributing sources to that
1:55:40 > 1:55:42and we've got to be careful not to blame everything
1:55:42 > 1:55:45that's happened in the Middle East on the invasion.
1:55:45 > 1:55:47Let's just hear from some members of the audience. You in the front.
1:55:47 > 1:55:50But I think it's also important - you say about learning lessons,
1:55:50 > 1:55:52but couldn't you argue in very simplistic terms
1:55:52 > 1:55:55that Isis has kind of come up through the power vacuum
1:55:55 > 1:55:58of getting rid of Saddam Hussein,
1:55:58 > 1:56:02and then people again are just seeing war as the only option
1:56:02 > 1:56:05where there are so many other options?
1:56:05 > 1:56:07Kind of intervening. And then, again,
1:56:07 > 1:56:10- it's in the response to intervene with war...- Ian Hislop.
1:56:10 > 1:56:12- We'll keep with this. - ..and then we're ending up
1:56:12 > 1:56:15with all these immigrants that people are then critiquing,
1:56:15 > 1:56:17when it's our fault that they're running away
1:56:17 > 1:56:18from their own homeland.
1:56:18 > 1:56:21- Ian Hislop.- I'm just interested in the defence of hindsight,
1:56:21 > 1:56:24which has been offered by Blair and Alastair Campbell this week,
1:56:24 > 1:56:26and now here again. Why do you need hindsight?
1:56:26 > 1:56:29In 2003 - I was looking back at Private Eye's coverage.
1:56:29 > 1:56:32I mean, we got it right, George got it right,
1:56:32 > 1:56:35a million people marching past Parliament got it right.
1:56:35 > 1:56:36APPLAUSE
1:56:41 > 1:56:44There's nothing in the Chilcot report
1:56:44 > 1:56:46that everyone didn't say at the time.
1:56:46 > 1:56:48Every single one of those stories,
1:56:48 > 1:56:52from the fact that, you know, the Snatch Rovers didn't work properly -
1:56:52 > 1:56:56every single bit of what was going to happen was relayed,
1:56:56 > 1:57:00including the legal position, which you were in the Cabinet...
1:57:01 > 1:57:03- You were not in the Cabinet? - Not at that time, no.
1:57:03 > 1:57:05- You were not offering advice? - I was not.
1:57:05 > 1:57:07None at all. What do you think of it, then, now?
1:57:07 > 1:57:09It was for the Attorney General to decide.
1:57:09 > 1:57:12- I agree with the advice that he gave.- What, on both occasions?
1:57:12 > 1:57:14Which advice? He gave two advice.
1:57:14 > 1:57:17The one that the better view was that it was lawful.
1:57:17 > 1:57:19Is that written down anywhere?
1:57:19 > 1:57:21That is written down, yes, in a Parliamentary answer
1:57:21 > 1:57:23- he gave on 17 March. - Well, he gave one...
1:57:23 > 1:57:27I know you can get a lawyer to give any answer you pay for.
1:57:27 > 1:57:29- LAUGHTER - But the Attorney General
1:57:29 > 1:57:32first opined that it would not be legal.
1:57:32 > 1:57:35The entire legal team of the British Foreign Office,
1:57:35 > 1:57:39to a man and woman, said that the invasion would be illegal.
1:57:39 > 1:57:43Is legality the important point, or the morality of it?
1:57:43 > 1:57:44Oh, for me it's both.
1:57:44 > 1:57:49If we are a country that says we stand up for values
1:57:49 > 1:57:53including the rule of law and the United Nations,
1:57:53 > 1:57:58when Chilcot has just found that we undermined the United Nations
1:57:58 > 1:58:03and the process by which legality was established was,
1:58:03 > 1:58:07and I quote him, "Very far from satisfactory",
1:58:07 > 1:58:09then frankly, Charlie, there's something wrong
1:58:09 > 1:58:12with the legal advice that was given to Tony Blair.
1:58:12 > 1:58:14OK, we'll come back to you. You, sir, there, in the fifth row.
1:58:14 > 1:58:15APPLAUSE
1:58:15 > 1:58:16Yes.
1:58:17 > 1:58:20Can I just ask, if you all agree that it was wrong,
1:58:20 > 1:58:22don't you think then today that Tony Blair and Bush
1:58:22 > 1:58:24should stand trial for what they've done?
1:58:24 > 1:58:26Hold on, I wanted to get... Yeah, we'll come to that.
1:58:26 > 1:58:29I wanted to go to the man in the - one, two, three, four, five -
1:58:29 > 1:58:31fifth row, I said, that man there. Yes, please.
1:58:31 > 1:58:34- Fire away.- I wonder why the whole world was quiet
1:58:34 > 1:58:37when Saddam Hussein, 1980s, used chemical weapons
1:58:37 > 1:58:40against Kurdish people, his own people,
1:58:40 > 1:58:43in the Iraq-Iran war.
1:58:43 > 1:58:45Why didn't they overthrow him, then?
1:58:45 > 1:58:47Sal Brinton?
1:58:47 > 1:58:50I think that's an extremely important point,
1:58:50 > 1:58:52and the original question was about,
1:58:52 > 1:58:56was it right for Saddam Hussein to go? And the answer is yes.
1:58:56 > 1:59:00But was the invasion of Iraq in 2003 the right way to do it?
1:59:00 > 1:59:02Absolutely not.
1:59:02 > 1:59:07And Ian listed people who had very clearly said in 2003
1:59:07 > 1:59:09that it was the wrong thing to do.
1:59:09 > 1:59:12And Charles Kennedy led the Liberal Democrats,
1:59:12 > 1:59:14and was almost a sole voice in Parliament
1:59:14 > 1:59:18fighting to say, "We must have a second UN resolution."
1:59:18 > 1:59:20And the Sun put him on the front page and called him a traitor.
1:59:20 > 1:59:22With a snake alongside him.
1:59:22 > 1:59:23APPLAUSE
1:59:23 > 1:59:24So...
1:59:25 > 1:59:27The woman in the front here.
1:59:27 > 1:59:28Yes, you.
1:59:28 > 1:59:30- Me?- Yes.
1:59:30 > 1:59:35I was just about to say, the public were behind, you know,
1:59:35 > 1:59:37were not agreeing with it,
1:59:37 > 1:59:39but the press behaved disgracefully.
1:59:39 > 1:59:43The Daily Mail led it on and on and on, and they were mostly,
1:59:43 > 1:59:46apart from the Daily Mirror, I believe, mainly behind it.
1:59:46 > 1:59:49- Going to war.- What's your view of Mark Turner's question,
1:59:49 > 1:59:51are we better off with Saddam gone?
1:59:51 > 1:59:53- I don't think we are, to be honest. - Mark Turner, what do you think?
1:59:53 > 1:59:56You asked the question. What's your view?
1:59:56 > 1:59:58Well, I'm no fan of Tony Blair,
1:59:58 > 2:00:01but I am less of a fan of Saddam Hussein,
2:00:01 > 2:00:03who was clearly a tyrant.
2:00:03 > 2:00:05He abused his own people.
2:00:05 > 2:00:08But I think the Chilcot report is just one element
2:00:08 > 2:00:12of a much bigger picture of Middle East stability.
2:00:12 > 2:00:14There's a key timing issue.
2:00:14 > 2:00:17The Labour Party failed to resource defence correctly
2:00:17 > 2:00:20for the whole time they were in power.
2:00:20 > 2:00:23There are issues of prime ministerial decision-making
2:00:23 > 2:00:25and political honesty.
2:00:25 > 2:00:27And I think when you wrap all those up,
2:00:27 > 2:00:29it was a disaster waiting to happen.
2:00:29 > 2:00:32- Can I just...?- Yes. - Just to pick up Ian's point...
2:00:32 > 2:00:35Sorry, could I finish by giving you my response,
2:00:35 > 2:00:37which is a qualified one?
2:00:37 > 2:00:41- I think the world is better off that Saddam Hussein has gone.- OK.
2:00:41 > 2:00:44I was going to say, Ian makes the point, rightly,
2:00:44 > 2:00:47that there was a real division of opinion at the time,
2:00:47 > 2:00:51and the arguments that were being advanced against war
2:00:51 > 2:00:54were right out there in the open, and the best exponent
2:00:54 > 2:00:56of those arguments in Parliament was Robin Cook, who resigned.
2:00:56 > 2:00:59And he set it all out, as did Charles Kennedy.
2:00:59 > 2:01:02But there was a decision that had to be made,
2:01:02 > 2:01:06and the Prime Minister honestly thought that the right view,
2:01:06 > 2:01:09a view that turns out to be the wrong view, was...
2:01:09 > 2:01:12That's your opinion. I mean, that's not in the report,
2:01:12 > 2:01:14that he honestly thought this. That's not there.
2:01:14 > 2:01:17There was no deception. There's no suggestion in the report...
2:01:17 > 2:01:20He doesn't say that. He just doesn't say that there WAS deception.
2:01:20 > 2:01:23That's not the same thing. The absence of evidence
2:01:23 > 2:01:25- is not the evidence of absence. - Well, let me tell you...
2:01:25 > 2:01:28Surely one of the most important things that Chilcot has brought out
2:01:28 > 2:01:30is the way decisions were made in the Cabinet,
2:01:30 > 2:01:33with often private meetings between Tony Blair
2:01:33 > 2:01:34and individual members of the Cabinet.
2:01:34 > 2:01:37Very little open discussion in Cabinet.
2:01:37 > 2:01:39The Cabinet members then had to go back into Parliament
2:01:39 > 2:01:42and persuade others, and it wasn't the sort of place...
2:01:42 > 2:01:43I mean, we're called Parliament,
2:01:43 > 2:01:46and it's meant to be the place where people come together to speak
2:01:46 > 2:01:49and debate and get to the bottom of an issue. That couldn't happen.
2:01:49 > 2:01:52- Parliament claimed they weren't given the intelligence.- Absolutely.
2:01:52 > 2:01:55It turns out it was a sorry excuse for a Cabinet,
2:01:55 > 2:01:58because Blair is able, actually, to say,
2:01:58 > 2:02:01"Well, I didn't give them an options paper
2:02:01 > 2:02:03"because they never asked for one.
2:02:03 > 2:02:07"I didn't actually show them the legal advice
2:02:07 > 2:02:09"because they never asked for it."
2:02:09 > 2:02:11And Clare Short says that she sat in the Cabinet,
2:02:11 > 2:02:15and the actual decision to go to war
2:02:15 > 2:02:18wasn't even taken by the Cabinet.
2:02:18 > 2:02:21But before we lose sight of this,
2:02:21 > 2:02:24far be it from me to leap to the defence of the Daily Mail -
2:02:24 > 2:02:28the Daily Mail was actually extremely sceptical about the war.
2:02:28 > 2:02:31But the great majority of the broadcast media,
2:02:31 > 2:02:34more than the print media, actually,
2:02:34 > 2:02:39the BBC and others, provided a drumbeat to war
2:02:39 > 2:02:41and they treated those of us who were against it
2:02:41 > 2:02:44as mad or bad or both.
2:02:44 > 2:02:47When are they going to take responsibility for this disaster?
2:02:47 > 2:02:48APPLAUSE
2:02:48 > 2:02:49Tom Tugendhat.
2:02:53 > 2:02:55As I hear these conversations about the debate,
2:02:55 > 2:02:58I remember listening to them on the World Service of the BBC
2:02:58 > 2:03:03from a desert base just outside Iraq back in 2003,
2:03:03 > 2:03:07and I remember looking at my unit, my friends,
2:03:07 > 2:03:12and wondering how the next few days, months, were going to...
2:03:12 > 2:03:15what they were going to hold for us who were there.
2:03:15 > 2:03:20I do remember being, as you can probably imagine, pretty terrified.
2:03:20 > 2:03:22And it really did focus my mind.
2:03:22 > 2:03:26But the thing that has struck me about Chilcot, if I may,
2:03:26 > 2:03:28is not so much about Tony Blair and the Government.
2:03:28 > 2:03:31Funnily enough, I wasn't really surprised about that.
2:03:31 > 2:03:34I kind of expected it to show that he had made
2:03:34 > 2:03:37some rather silly decisions in some rather bad and loose ways.
2:03:37 > 2:03:40What really surprised me, and what really distressed me, actually,
2:03:40 > 2:03:42is what it said about the senior command of the Armed Forces
2:03:42 > 2:03:44and our senior diplomats.
2:03:44 > 2:03:47Because the report
2:03:47 > 2:03:49is extremely harsh on them.
2:03:49 > 2:03:53Not just in the preparation for war, but in its execution.
2:03:53 > 2:03:57If you look at the chapters that cover
2:03:57 > 2:04:00the time after 2004-05,
2:04:00 > 2:04:02when the situation was getting worse,
2:04:02 > 2:04:05and as Ian quite rightly points to, the Snatch Land Rover incidents -
2:04:05 > 2:04:09if you look at the diplomatic messages
2:04:09 > 2:04:12that were supporting the then-Government's position,
2:04:12 > 2:04:16there are many voices that should have spoken out and stayed silent.
2:04:16 > 2:04:20There are many generals who should have realised that the tactics
2:04:20 > 2:04:23and strategy were not working, and stayed silent.
2:04:23 > 2:04:25And while it's not... Or rather,
2:04:25 > 2:04:28while it wasn't - it is now - but while it wasn't for me then
2:04:28 > 2:04:30to judge the actions of politicians,
2:04:30 > 2:04:33it is absolutely the duty of generals
2:04:33 > 2:04:35and of senior diplomats
2:04:35 > 2:04:38to look after the men and women who are there executing the orders
2:04:38 > 2:04:41of Her Majesty's Government in the field.
2:04:41 > 2:04:42APPLAUSE
2:04:50 > 2:04:54Let me take a question from Suraj Lakhani, please. Suraj.
2:04:54 > 2:04:57Should Tony Blair face trial for war crimes?
2:04:57 > 2:04:59Should Tony Blair face trial for war crimes?
2:04:59 > 2:05:01APPLAUSE
2:05:04 > 2:05:05Ian Hislop.
2:05:05 > 2:05:07Well, I mean, there is going to be a section of the public
2:05:07 > 2:05:11that will only be satisfied if Chilcot's first statement had said
2:05:11 > 2:05:14he should be strung up outside Parliament Square
2:05:14 > 2:05:16with a huge baying mob.
2:05:16 > 2:05:19That isn't going to happen. The International Criminal Court
2:05:19 > 2:05:21said they deal with battlefield atrocities.
2:05:21 > 2:05:25We're trying to talk about keeping it within legal structures.
2:05:25 > 2:05:28It would have to be a legal structure that tried Tony Blair.
2:05:28 > 2:05:30There's talk of MPs arraigning him,
2:05:30 > 2:05:33there's talk of legal challenges.
2:05:33 > 2:05:36The whole point, the very first question is,
2:05:36 > 2:05:39should we have toppled Saddam?
2:05:39 > 2:05:41The idea is, it's possible to say yes,
2:05:41 > 2:05:45but it should have been done legally under international law,
2:05:45 > 2:05:47with sufficient planning.
2:05:47 > 2:05:50So should we just say, "Yes, let's string him up"?
2:05:50 > 2:05:52I think, probably, no.
2:05:52 > 2:05:55I think we should wait for the legal procedure
2:05:55 > 2:05:57to pan out of what you can do with him.
2:05:57 > 2:06:00But look at him. He gave a speech - this is a haunted man.
2:06:00 > 2:06:03I mean, the toxicity of his legacy is extraordinary,
2:06:03 > 2:06:05and Chilcot has now banged it in.
2:06:05 > 2:06:08I mean, he is literally going to wander the earth
2:06:08 > 2:06:11doing after-dinners for Kazakhstan toilet companies.
2:06:11 > 2:06:15- LAUGHTER - You know, that is his punishment.
2:06:15 > 2:06:17APPLAUSE
2:06:17 > 2:06:20So I think not. And I think Tom is absolutely right -
2:06:20 > 2:06:22we shouldn't make it all about Blair.
2:06:22 > 2:06:25Essentially, the British Army lost two wars.
2:06:25 > 2:06:27We don't make a big deal about that,
2:06:27 > 2:06:30but we lost in Iraq,
2:06:30 > 2:06:33and we lost in Afghanistan, and that's not great.
2:06:33 > 2:06:35I mean, that is worth an inquiry.
2:06:35 > 2:06:36OK.
2:06:36 > 2:06:38APPLAUSE
2:06:40 > 2:06:43Both the Shadow Chancellor and the Labour leader
2:06:43 > 2:06:44said there should be legal action.
2:06:44 > 2:06:47Do you think there should there be legal action taken against Blair?
2:06:47 > 2:06:50No, I don't think legal action should be taken against Blair.
2:06:50 > 2:06:52He was the Prime Minister at the time,
2:06:52 > 2:06:55he had to make incredibly difficult decisions
2:06:55 > 2:06:58about what to do at the time,
2:06:58 > 2:07:02when the world was in flux because of 9/11
2:07:02 > 2:07:04and the pressures that that created.
2:07:04 > 2:07:07He made a decision honestly
2:07:07 > 2:07:12in what he believed to be the best interests of the United Kingdom.
2:07:12 > 2:07:13He may have got it wrong,
2:07:13 > 2:07:16but it was honestly in the best interest, as he saw it,
2:07:16 > 2:07:18of the United Kingdom.
2:07:18 > 2:07:21He wasn't acting in any way deceptively or dishonestly.
2:07:21 > 2:07:23AUDIENCE CHATTERS
2:07:23 > 2:07:25What he thought was best for the country.
2:07:25 > 2:07:26That's not what the report says.
2:07:26 > 2:07:30The report makes it clear that he did not deceive anybody.
2:07:30 > 2:07:33- It makes it clear...- He had secret memos with George Bush!
2:07:33 > 2:07:35He had discussions with George Bush,
2:07:35 > 2:07:38but at no stage did he keep secret from the country
2:07:38 > 2:07:42what the issues were. And Ian was right when he said
2:07:42 > 2:07:45what the issues were, about whether we went to war or not,
2:07:45 > 2:07:47were apparent to the country,
2:07:47 > 2:07:50and it was a difficult decision and the country was divided,
2:07:50 > 2:07:52but he had a clear view.
2:07:52 > 2:07:55The country didn't know that he'd already committed to a decision
2:07:55 > 2:07:57which didn't involve them.
2:07:57 > 2:07:58APPLAUSE
2:08:04 > 2:08:06Sir John Chilcot's report finds
2:08:06 > 2:08:09that there was no secret agreement to go to war.
2:08:09 > 2:08:11He made it clear that he would not go
2:08:11 > 2:08:14unless there was proper authorisation
2:08:14 > 2:08:15from the United Nations,
2:08:15 > 2:08:19which he believed that he had from Resolution 1441.
2:08:19 > 2:08:20- AUDIENCE CHATTERS - Charlie, please...
2:08:20 > 2:08:23- No, no, but just...- What about, "I will be with you, whatever"?
2:08:23 > 2:08:26He says, "I will be with you, whatever," in that memo in July...
2:08:26 > 2:08:30- What does that mean?- He says... He then sets out a basis...
2:08:30 > 2:08:33"I will be with you, whatever, BUT, this, and this, and this."
2:08:33 > 2:08:34- Exactly.- But he didn't...
2:08:34 > 2:08:38Actually, let's not let that lie be written into the record.
2:08:38 > 2:08:42- They're saying that the next word is "but".- Yeah.
2:08:42 > 2:08:45But the next word isn't "but".
2:08:45 > 2:08:49There are a series of things to sell it that Blair then suggests.
2:08:49 > 2:08:52- I think the next word is actually is "but".- Yeah, I think it is.
2:08:52 > 2:08:54- It is "but", unfortunately. - Charlie...- It is "but".
2:08:54 > 2:08:56Sorry. The next word is "but". LAUGHTER
2:08:56 > 2:08:58But it doesn't matter.
2:08:58 > 2:09:02There's no qualification to the word "whatever".
2:09:02 > 2:09:04"Whatever."
2:09:04 > 2:09:05The position...
2:09:05 > 2:09:07All right, come to the war crimes issue.
2:09:07 > 2:09:09- Can you answer that one?- Yes.
2:09:09 > 2:09:12Do you think he should face criminal charges?
2:09:12 > 2:09:14Charlie used to be his flatmate,
2:09:14 > 2:09:17but you don't have to hide his dirty laundry any longer.
2:09:17 > 2:09:18You're a grown man.
2:09:18 > 2:09:19APPLAUSE
2:09:22 > 2:09:24He is already facing legal action.
2:09:24 > 2:09:27The families of the bereaved...
2:09:27 > 2:09:30The bereaved families of the soldiers
2:09:30 > 2:09:33are right now sitting with their lawyers,
2:09:33 > 2:09:35preparing legal actions
2:09:35 > 2:09:39for the loss of their children or husbands
2:09:39 > 2:09:42through his recklessness and negligence
2:09:42 > 2:09:44and misuse of public office,
2:09:44 > 2:09:46malfeasance in public office.
2:09:46 > 2:09:48Do you think that's the way to go?
2:09:48 > 2:09:51Not through the courts, not through the Hague...
2:09:51 > 2:09:53The ICC has said they won't take the case.
2:09:53 > 2:09:55Do you think they're right to say that?
2:09:55 > 2:09:58No, I think they're wrong to say it, and I think it will be challenged.
2:09:58 > 2:10:01So the Hague should say that it is a criminal offence
2:10:01 > 2:10:04under international law to go to war on these grounds?
2:10:04 > 2:10:06I believe the only proper place where Tony Blair
2:10:06 > 2:10:10should be talking about the war is in the dock at the Hague.
2:10:10 > 2:10:11That's what I believe.
2:10:11 > 2:10:13APPLAUSE
2:10:13 > 2:10:17The man up there. You, sir, in the third row from the back. Yes.
2:10:17 > 2:10:20Tony Blair took responsibility for the legal position,
2:10:20 > 2:10:21and that's a debate as well,
2:10:21 > 2:10:23but he also has to take responsibility
2:10:23 > 2:10:26for the campaign as a whole,
2:10:26 > 2:10:30which the planning, both prior to and after the conflict,
2:10:30 > 2:10:32was absolutely abysmal.
2:10:32 > 2:10:35It was more dangerous in the years after Iraq
2:10:35 > 2:10:38than it was in 2003, when I was there.
2:10:38 > 2:10:41And you were there as a soldier?
2:10:41 > 2:10:43I was there in the Army as a soldier, that's right.
2:10:43 > 2:10:47- For how long?- I was in Kuwait from January and went into Iraq,
2:10:47 > 2:10:49came back in June of 2003.
2:10:49 > 2:10:51What do you make of what Tom said a moment ago,
2:10:51 > 2:10:55about the leadership of the Army and that it was letting you down?
2:10:55 > 2:10:57I think he makes a very fair point,
2:10:57 > 2:10:59and I think it was the responsibility
2:10:59 > 2:11:02of the Army generals to raise the issue,
2:11:02 > 2:11:04because fundamentally,
2:11:04 > 2:11:08there were unconscionable events that occurred,
2:11:08 > 2:11:11even small ones, such as the lack of body armour,
2:11:11 > 2:11:13that exacerbated this whole thing.
2:11:13 > 2:11:16- That's not that small if you're facing bullets.- Indeed.
2:11:16 > 2:11:17Yes, indeed.
2:11:17 > 2:11:20APPLAUSE
2:11:23 > 2:11:25- You, in the... - Tony Blair's exact words were,
2:11:25 > 2:11:27"I will be with you no matter what."
2:11:27 > 2:11:29There were no WMDs found. He lied to us,
2:11:29 > 2:11:32he lied to the Government, and as a direct result of his lies,
2:11:32 > 2:11:36149 soldiers' blood is now on his hands. He should pay the price,
2:11:36 > 2:11:38and he should be done for war crimes. End of.
2:11:38 > 2:11:41APPLAUSE Sal Brinton.
2:11:41 > 2:11:43I think the problem is if the ICC have already said
2:11:43 > 2:11:45they're not going to do that. But I do believe
2:11:45 > 2:11:49that everything that you said just now is correct.
2:11:49 > 2:11:52Tony Blair was absolutely determined to make the case for war,
2:11:52 > 2:11:55regardless of the legality, the evidence and the strategy,
2:11:55 > 2:11:58including the post-invasion planning,
2:11:58 > 2:12:00which was not just woeful,
2:12:00 > 2:12:02but catastrophic for the region as a whole.
2:12:02 > 2:12:05And absolutely, there are problems there - he's not the only person.
2:12:05 > 2:12:08I suspect that the families bringing cases
2:12:08 > 2:12:11is probably the only formal way that there will be any action,
2:12:11 > 2:12:13but I think the moral side,
2:12:13 > 2:12:16Tony Blair absolutely understands that the majority of people
2:12:16 > 2:12:19in this country are appalled by the actions both of him
2:12:19 > 2:12:21and of some of his colleagues.
2:12:21 > 2:12:24And Chilcot has made plain those actions,
2:12:24 > 2:12:26the failure of Government,
2:12:26 > 2:12:28and the failure of planning.
2:12:28 > 2:12:31And yet again, we fought a war using the last weapons
2:12:31 > 2:12:34from the previous war. The Northern Ireland equipment was wrong.
2:12:34 > 2:12:38It took us too long in Afghanistan to learn that lesson as well.
2:12:38 > 2:12:40We absolutely have to make sure that our Armed Forces
2:12:40 > 2:12:42have learned those lessons for the future.
2:12:42 > 2:12:44OK, you, sir, in the second row.
2:12:44 > 2:12:48I was in Northern Ireland for a long time,
2:12:48 > 2:12:50and I lived there.
2:12:50 > 2:12:53I was in the war in Northern Ireland as well.
2:12:53 > 2:12:55But while I was there,
2:12:55 > 2:12:59I met a lot of refugees from Iraq.
2:12:59 > 2:13:02And going back to the first question,
2:13:02 > 2:13:05"Do you think it's right to have got rid of Saddam Hussein?"
2:13:05 > 2:13:08No, I don't think it's right to have got rid of him.
2:13:08 > 2:13:13Because I met these refugees, and they were refugees from...
2:13:13 > 2:13:17As they said, he was a dictator,
2:13:17 > 2:13:19but he was in control of the country.
2:13:19 > 2:13:23There were Shias and Sunnis fighting against each other,
2:13:23 > 2:13:26and the families who were in Northern Ireland,
2:13:26 > 2:13:28they were better off, and they...
2:13:28 > 2:13:30But I'll tell you something -
2:13:30 > 2:13:35when Britain invaded Kuwait... uh, Iraq,
2:13:35 > 2:13:38the refugee families -
2:13:38 > 2:13:43students were standing here, doctors, they were locked up.
2:13:43 > 2:13:46They were in a worse state
2:13:46 > 2:13:52- just for being Iraqis in the country.- OK.
2:13:52 > 2:13:56Tom Tugendhat, just last point on war trial.
2:13:56 > 2:13:57Look, I'm not a lawyer,
2:13:57 > 2:14:00but I think you'd be hard pressed to say
2:14:00 > 2:14:03that the 2.6 million words that make up the Chilcot report
2:14:03 > 2:14:07do not condemn him very, very severely already.
2:14:07 > 2:14:11And I find myself thinking very hard, actually, these days,
2:14:11 > 2:14:15again, about the 179 servicemen who were killed.
2:14:17 > 2:14:20Because of course, for those of us who served, as you did, sir,
2:14:20 > 2:14:22it's not a list of numbers, it's a list of names,
2:14:22 > 2:14:24some of whom are our friends.
2:14:24 > 2:14:27And of course, for each one who was injured,
2:14:27 > 2:14:30there were many more... Sorry, for each one who was killed,
2:14:30 > 2:14:32there were many more who were injured,
2:14:32 > 2:14:33and many of my friends now
2:14:33 > 2:14:36are living with the injuries of that war.
2:14:36 > 2:14:39Some of them are physical, some of them are mental.
2:14:39 > 2:14:44I find it very difficult, very difficult,
2:14:44 > 2:14:46to look dispassionately at it.
2:14:48 > 2:14:52But I do appreciate that my job now is not as a judge and jury.
2:14:52 > 2:14:54I'll leave that to the lawyers.
2:14:54 > 2:14:57But it's to make sure that we never find ourselves
2:14:57 > 2:15:00in a situation like that again,
2:15:00 > 2:15:03which is why I'm very glad that a few changes have happened already,
2:15:03 > 2:15:06and I will be asking for more.
2:15:06 > 2:15:10That we've got a National Security Council at which senior diplomats,
2:15:10 > 2:15:12senior military officers and the Attorney General
2:15:12 > 2:15:14are all expected to speak up,
2:15:14 > 2:15:17they're all expected to challenge.
2:15:17 > 2:15:19I think that's a really important change.
2:15:19 > 2:15:22But he will be the jury if there's an impeachment in the House,
2:15:22 > 2:15:24and I think that there will be.
2:15:24 > 2:15:27- An impeachment in the House?- Yes, I think that Alex Salmond and others
2:15:27 > 2:15:29are going to bring forward a motion
2:15:29 > 2:15:32to impeach Tony Blair at the Bar of the House.
2:15:32 > 2:15:37Huckled in under manners by Black Rod and the sergeant at arms.
2:15:37 > 2:15:39Wouldn't that be a fine day indeed?
2:15:39 > 2:15:42I'll take a couple more points and then we'll move on.
2:15:42 > 2:15:45You, sir, waving your hand at me, with the grey hair there,
2:15:45 > 2:15:46and the spectacles.
2:15:46 > 2:15:50Isn't it outrageous that we see Tony Blair
2:15:50 > 2:15:54with armed police officers and a protection squad
2:15:54 > 2:15:57and a bulletproof and a bombproof car,
2:15:57 > 2:16:00when the troops had none of that equipment?
2:16:00 > 2:16:01APPLAUSE
2:16:01 > 2:16:03And you, sir. A last point.
2:16:03 > 2:16:05Yes. You've both got your hands up.
2:16:05 > 2:16:07Both briefly, if you would, and then we'll go on.
2:16:07 > 2:16:10Yeah, I was in the Army at that time.
2:16:10 > 2:16:13I was in the Household Cavalry, based in Knightsbridge.
2:16:13 > 2:16:16And a lot of the guys that were going out there
2:16:16 > 2:16:18who were based in Windsor didn't want to go out,
2:16:18 > 2:16:20didn't believe in the war, but they did it
2:16:20 > 2:16:23because it was their job and because they had to do it.
2:16:23 > 2:16:25So you've got this fall-down from all of that.
2:16:25 > 2:16:30We went to war to hold Saddam Hussein accountable for his actions.
2:16:30 > 2:16:34So who's going to be accountable for these actions?
2:16:34 > 2:16:36Tony Blair? Someone else?
2:16:36 > 2:16:38APPLAUSE
2:16:42 > 2:16:44What do you make of what Chilcot said?
2:16:46 > 2:16:48I haven't read the report, to be honest.
2:16:48 > 2:16:53I've only seen the information that's been fed to me by the media.
2:16:53 > 2:16:58But it seemed honest and quite straightforward, to what...
2:16:58 > 2:17:01how it began in the first place.
2:17:01 > 2:17:02And the man on your left there.
2:17:02 > 2:17:06I find it unbelievable that one of your panel members is sat here
2:17:06 > 2:17:08still defending Tony Blair
2:17:08 > 2:17:11after all the information given by this audience
2:17:11 > 2:17:14and the rest of the panel. I think it's disgusting that you defend him.
2:17:14 > 2:17:16APPLAUSE
2:17:20 > 2:17:23I do defend him, for the reasons that I've given already.
2:17:23 > 2:17:27I've made it clear I thought the decision was wrong,
2:17:27 > 2:17:30and I still speak up for him because he achieved a lot,
2:17:30 > 2:17:34but this issue is a really, really difficult issue...
2:17:34 > 2:17:37- So wrong.- ..and I accept the findings of Chilcot.
2:17:37 > 2:17:38- OK.- Can I just say -
2:17:38 > 2:17:41I mean, I accept all the points everyone's making,
2:17:41 > 2:17:43but I think it's just worth remembering
2:17:43 > 2:17:45that 250 people died last weekend
2:17:45 > 2:17:48in one bomb blast in Baghdad. One!
2:17:51 > 2:17:55Yes, we've got to learn lessons about ourselves, but I mean,
2:17:55 > 2:17:58there's pretty huge repercussions in Iraq,
2:17:58 > 2:18:01and there are some very good foreign correspondents' reports
2:18:01 > 2:18:03at the moment saying, do you know, they're not that bothered
2:18:03 > 2:18:06by our soul-searching. They're just still angry.
2:18:06 > 2:18:07OK.
2:18:07 > 2:18:09APPLAUSE
2:18:09 > 2:18:11We'll go onto another...
2:18:11 > 2:18:13We'll go on to a completely different topic,
2:18:13 > 2:18:15one on which we had as many questions
2:18:15 > 2:18:17as we did on that first one this week.
2:18:17 > 2:18:19Chloe Garrett-Dyke. Chloe Garrett-Dyke.
2:18:20 > 2:18:23In light of the misleading Leave campaign
2:18:23 > 2:18:25and a complete lack of a plan,
2:18:25 > 2:18:27is the referendum result really a legitimate mandate
2:18:27 > 2:18:29for us to leave the EU?
2:18:29 > 2:18:31In light of the misleading Leave campaign
2:18:31 > 2:18:33and a lack of a plan....
2:18:33 > 2:18:36- Sal Brinton.- Lack of a plan?
2:18:36 > 2:18:38Have we not just been talking about lacks of plans
2:18:38 > 2:18:40in the previous question?
2:18:40 > 2:18:42I mean, there is a real issue.
2:18:42 > 2:18:44There was no threshold on this referendum, which meant that
2:18:44 > 2:18:47although it was 52% of those who voted,
2:18:47 > 2:18:51it was only 37% of people entitled to vote.
2:18:51 > 2:18:52But as Liberal Democrats,
2:18:52 > 2:18:55we say we have to accept the result of the referendum.
2:18:55 > 2:18:58But we remain a pro-Europe party.
2:18:58 > 2:19:01We absolutely see the importance
2:19:01 > 2:19:03of Britain having a key role in Europe,
2:19:03 > 2:19:06and we will go into the next general election
2:19:06 > 2:19:09saying that we should still be there.
2:19:09 > 2:19:13In the meantime, we will be absolutely a strong voice
2:19:13 > 2:19:15in Parliament and in the country
2:19:15 > 2:19:17to try and get the best deal we can.
2:19:17 > 2:19:19It's interesting that we're here at a university.
2:19:19 > 2:19:25The university sector has already really felt the chill in two weeks.
2:19:25 > 2:19:27About a third of research monies are likely to go.
2:19:27 > 2:19:30There's a number of projects been put on hold.
2:19:30 > 2:19:32And there's certainly worries about PhD students
2:19:32 > 2:19:35who had been jointly funded by European projects,
2:19:35 > 2:19:39so we are living with the real consequences of no plan.
2:19:40 > 2:19:42The words of the question...
2:19:42 > 2:19:43APPLAUSE
2:19:45 > 2:19:46Chloe's question, though -
2:19:46 > 2:19:49you said you would stand against this in the general election.
2:19:49 > 2:19:52The question was whether it was a legitimate mandate
2:19:52 > 2:19:55to leave the EU, that referendum. Are you saying it wasn't?
2:19:55 > 2:19:57I think I'm saying it's extremely borderline,
2:19:57 > 2:20:00but it fell within the rules, and unfortunately,
2:20:00 > 2:20:02democracy means you've got to go by the rules
2:20:02 > 2:20:04that are played at the time.
2:20:04 > 2:20:08But clearly, those many of us, including 70% in the Brighton area
2:20:08 > 2:20:12who voted Remain, feel extremely concerned
2:20:12 > 2:20:15that people voted for something not understanding what it was...
2:20:15 > 2:20:18- AUDIENCE CHATTERS - ..and now they're beginning to see
2:20:18 > 2:20:20the reality of the lack of plan.
2:20:20 > 2:20:26The lack of plan - where's the 350 million a week for the NHS?
2:20:26 > 2:20:27Suddenly gone.
2:20:27 > 2:20:30Jobs already beginning to disappear from the city,
2:20:30 > 2:20:32the FTSE 250 down over 10%,
2:20:32 > 2:20:36the pound down to below 1.30 and staying there.
2:20:36 > 2:20:39At time of broadcast. It's probably lower now.
2:20:39 > 2:20:41LAUGHTER Who was...?
2:20:41 > 2:20:45You were complaining, in the front row there. Yes. Your go. You.
2:20:47 > 2:20:5070% of the population of Brighton voted to stay in,
2:20:50 > 2:20:55but the majority of people in the south-east voted to come out,
2:20:55 > 2:20:58so I mean, you're just picking on Brighton because...?
2:20:58 > 2:21:01No, I'm just saying because we are in Brighton tonight,
2:21:01 > 2:21:04and there are areas like this that have, for example...
2:21:04 > 2:21:07- So what?- So what, yeah?
2:21:07 > 2:21:09It was just an example.
2:21:09 > 2:21:11- The south-east voted to come out. - And London did as well.
2:21:11 > 2:21:13And the north-east obviously voted out.
2:21:13 > 2:21:17Well, everybody apart from London, Northern Ireland and Scotland.
2:21:17 > 2:21:20- The rest of the country voted to come out.- But it was...
2:21:20 > 2:21:23No, no, no. The rest of the country who voted, you are correct.
2:21:23 > 2:21:26- 52-48, you can't just say everybody. - It's not exactly a massive majority.
2:21:26 > 2:21:29All right, the question is whether it was a misleading Leave campaign
2:21:29 > 2:21:32with no plan if the vote was Brexit.
2:21:32 > 2:21:34Yes, you're waving at me, I will come to you.
2:21:34 > 2:21:37But the man there with the spectacles had his hand up first.
2:21:37 > 2:21:39- You, sir.- We've had the referendum.
2:21:39 > 2:21:43Everyone's had the opportunity to put their voice forward.
2:21:43 > 2:21:48It's about time we just crack on with getting the deal.
2:21:48 > 2:21:50APPLAUSE
2:21:52 > 2:21:54And you at the back, the second row from the back.
2:21:54 > 2:21:55The young man there, yes.
2:21:55 > 2:21:59The question was whether the referendum result was legitimate,
2:21:59 > 2:22:01and the answer is yes.
2:22:01 > 2:22:02The job of government...
2:22:02 > 2:22:04APPLAUSE
2:22:04 > 2:22:08The job of government is to plan for every eventuality,
2:22:08 > 2:22:11and most of them pinned their mast to Remain.
2:22:11 > 2:22:15Now, the only person who had a plan was Mark Carney.
2:22:15 > 2:22:20Despite saying it was a massive risk to leave, he had a plan.
2:22:20 > 2:22:23Why is he the only person who had a plan?
2:22:23 > 2:22:25What was Cabinet doing?
2:22:25 > 2:22:27That's the question I'd ask.
2:22:27 > 2:22:29APPLAUSE
2:22:30 > 2:22:32Charles Falconer.
2:22:32 > 2:22:35Yes, I think it is a legitimate basis
2:22:35 > 2:22:37and, indeed, it is a mandate from the people
2:22:37 > 2:22:39to leave the European Union,
2:22:39 > 2:22:42which the politicians, I think, have got to accept.
2:22:42 > 2:22:45I think lots and lots of misleading things were said
2:22:45 > 2:22:48in the course of the campaign, but when a misleading thing was said,
2:22:48 > 2:22:51like this £350 million figure, it was pointed out
2:22:51 > 2:22:54and it was for the public to make a judgment about it,
2:22:54 > 2:22:56and they did make a judgment about it.
2:22:56 > 2:22:58- AUDIENCE MEMBER:- Both sides lied.
2:22:58 > 2:23:00Are you commending that?
2:23:00 > 2:23:03It's for the public to decide how they react
2:23:03 > 2:23:06to what people say about it. And they've made their decision -
2:23:06 > 2:23:08it's now for politicians to do something about it.
2:23:08 > 2:23:12The absence of a plan means if, in the course of negotiations,
2:23:12 > 2:23:15we fail to get a result which is
2:23:15 > 2:23:18free access to the single market on the same terms as now...
2:23:18 > 2:23:20- AUDIENCE MEMBER:- We voted out. - I know, I accept that!
2:23:20 > 2:23:21I accept we voted out.
2:23:21 > 2:23:23And I accept that we've now got to try
2:23:23 > 2:23:27and negotiate our way to a situation where we're out.
2:23:27 > 2:23:30If we get close to the situation where we've got the single market,
2:23:30 > 2:23:34control over immigration, no contributions to the EU,
2:23:34 > 2:23:36then that's fine. There'll be no need
2:23:36 > 2:23:38for anybody to be asked again whether that's OK.
2:23:38 > 2:23:40But if it's far away from that...
2:23:40 > 2:23:43But you would accept out in any condition, the gentleman here.
2:23:43 > 2:23:45Wait a minute. If it's far from that, the public
2:23:45 > 2:23:47will need to express a view on it. That's what I think.
2:23:47 > 2:23:50All right, the woman in red, in the second row from the back.
2:23:50 > 2:23:52People keep saying it's a misleading campaign,
2:23:52 > 2:23:55both about the referendum and Chilcot and the Iraq campaign,
2:23:55 > 2:23:58and then you keep saying it's for the public to decide.
2:23:58 > 2:24:01But I sort of think, isn't it also for politicians to be honest?
2:24:01 > 2:24:03And why do we not have some kind of system of accountability?
2:24:03 > 2:24:06Not one that takes seven years and £10 million.
2:24:06 > 2:24:08But, you know, when politicians are found to have lied
2:24:08 > 2:24:11or to have been incompetent, on the other hand,
2:24:11 > 2:24:13they are unfit to lead us.
2:24:13 > 2:24:16Why do we not have some kind of system that holds them to account?
2:24:16 > 2:24:17APPLAUSE
2:24:24 > 2:24:27Elections aren't enough for you? LAUGHTER
2:24:27 > 2:24:30I mean, we have a system of proportional representation...
2:24:30 > 2:24:32- We don't.- Would you like to see Boris prosecuted?
2:24:32 > 2:24:33No, not prosecuted, but if...
2:24:33 > 2:24:36The £350 million, which was on the side of his bus,
2:24:36 > 2:24:39which he knew wasn't true, he was told it wasn't true,
2:24:39 > 2:24:42he kept pointing to it throughout - should he be arrested?
2:24:42 > 2:24:44- Not arrested, but...- Yes! - LAUGHTER
2:24:44 > 2:24:46..maybe barred from holding public office.
2:24:46 > 2:24:48You say we have an electoral system.
2:24:48 > 2:24:50- We have an electoral system based on proportional...- No.
2:24:50 > 2:24:52- We don't.- Based on first past the post.
2:24:52 > 2:24:54You have a choice of two candidates,
2:24:54 > 2:24:56it's often a choice of the least bad option.
2:24:56 > 2:25:00And if someone is found to have lied but you disagree with the politics
2:25:00 > 2:25:02of the other candidate, what choice do you have?
2:25:02 > 2:25:05All right. The woman there, in white, with spectacles. There.
2:25:05 > 2:25:09What makes you think that Britain would be able to negotiate
2:25:09 > 2:25:15both access to the single market and controlled immigration?
2:25:15 > 2:25:16Well, let me tell you...
2:25:16 > 2:25:18APPLAUSE
2:25:18 > 2:25:22- Is that the message you picked up from the Brexit case?- Yes.
2:25:22 > 2:25:26- I think he was being ironic.- I don't think there is a point of Brexit
2:25:26 > 2:25:29if we cannot control immigration
2:25:29 > 2:25:32and if we cannot have access to the single market.
2:25:32 > 2:25:36Otherwise, what is the point of Brexit if we cannot have both?
2:25:36 > 2:25:38OK, George Galloway.
2:25:38 > 2:25:41Well, if you took all of the liars and the incompetents
2:25:41 > 2:25:43out of parliament, it would be pretty empty,
2:25:43 > 2:25:45let me tell you that first of all.
2:25:45 > 2:25:47APPLAUSE
2:25:48 > 2:25:51Both campaigns... Both campaigns were misleading.
2:25:51 > 2:25:53Careful, George. You were there repeatedly, weren't you?
2:25:53 > 2:25:55- Yeah, but...- You left.
2:25:55 > 2:25:58I said pretty empty, not entirely empty.
2:25:59 > 2:26:03The campaigns on both sides were misleading.
2:26:03 > 2:26:08The Remain camp painted a picture of us,
2:26:08 > 2:26:11who wanted out of the European Union,
2:26:11 > 2:26:14as some kind of racist mob,
2:26:14 > 2:26:19because we don't accept that in the kind of society we have,
2:26:19 > 2:26:23that there can be uncontrolled free movement of labour
2:26:23 > 2:26:26which drives the wages down of the workers already here.
2:26:26 > 2:26:29- APPLAUSE - Whatever country they come from,
2:26:29 > 2:26:31whatever colour they are, whatever creed they are.
2:26:31 > 2:26:36There's nothing racist about wanting to control your borders
2:26:36 > 2:26:39and about wanting to have a controlled and managed
2:26:39 > 2:26:44immigration system, which is impossible under the European Union.
2:26:44 > 2:26:47I am a follower, until now, though he's dead,
2:26:47 > 2:26:50of the late and great Tony Benn.
2:26:50 > 2:26:52There was nothing racist or reactionary
2:26:52 > 2:26:55about his opposition to the European Union.
2:26:55 > 2:26:57So there were lies on both sides.
2:26:57 > 2:27:01Boris Johnson, I wish they would put him in jail.
2:27:01 > 2:27:04- So do some of the Conservative Party.- For what, exactly?
2:27:04 > 2:27:07- Just for fun, or for...? - Nah, just for fun.
2:27:07 > 2:27:08APPLAUSE
2:27:08 > 2:27:13Maybe in the stocks, where we can throw buns at him,
2:27:13 > 2:27:15though he'd probably gobble them down.
2:27:15 > 2:27:17LAUGHTER
2:27:17 > 2:27:20The reality is, the public made a decision.
2:27:20 > 2:27:2217 million people,
2:27:22 > 2:27:24more than 17 million people.
2:27:24 > 2:27:28More people voted to leave the EU than have ever
2:27:28 > 2:27:32voted for anything in the entire history of this country.
2:27:32 > 2:27:35- The question is, was it...?- It is time to respect their decision.
2:27:35 > 2:27:36But Chloe's question was,
2:27:36 > 2:27:40- was the campaign of the Leave side misleading...- Both.
2:27:40 > 2:27:43..and therefore they got an unfair advantage
2:27:43 > 2:27:45over the people who wanted to Remain?
2:27:45 > 2:27:47If every government that was elected
2:27:47 > 2:27:51was unelected because they'd been misleading the public,
2:27:51 > 2:27:54- we would never have had...- Well, that's what she says should happen.
2:27:54 > 2:27:56But we would never have had a government.
2:27:56 > 2:27:59The Tories get into power every time misleading the people,
2:27:59 > 2:28:02- with respect to you, Tom. - No offence taken, George.
2:28:02 > 2:28:06They're constantly misleading. Politicians mislead.
2:28:06 > 2:28:10It's for the public and the media to hold the politicians to account,
2:28:10 > 2:28:12and I believe that they did so.
2:28:12 > 2:28:14OK. Let's try and do a bit more of that, then.
2:28:14 > 2:28:15The man with the white beard,
2:28:15 > 2:28:18in the fifth row from the back, sixth row, there. You, sir, yes.
2:28:18 > 2:28:21This has been, in my view, the most humiliating
2:28:21 > 2:28:24and disgusting period of British politics.
2:28:24 > 2:28:25The whole referendum.
2:28:25 > 2:28:27APPLAUSE
2:28:31 > 2:28:32In what way?
2:28:32 > 2:28:36We have lost the friendship and support of our closest allies,
2:28:36 > 2:28:38in both senses of the word.
2:28:38 > 2:28:41We have endangered the special relationship
2:28:41 > 2:28:43which we have with the United States,
2:28:43 > 2:28:47which has been our safeguard since the middle of the Second World War.
2:28:47 > 2:28:52We have disenfranchised our youth in this country from their future.
2:28:52 > 2:28:53Why have we disenfranchised them?
2:28:53 > 2:28:56Because they almost overwhelmingly
2:28:56 > 2:28:59would like to stay in the status quo.
2:28:59 > 2:29:00- So why didn't they vote? - Can I just make...
2:29:00 > 2:29:03- Why didn't they vote? - Can I just make the main point?
2:29:03 > 2:29:05No, answer that one first. Why didn't they vote?
2:29:05 > 2:29:07Why did they vote in such small numbers,
2:29:07 > 2:29:09compared with people over 65?
2:29:09 > 2:29:11I think, regrettably, because politicians
2:29:11 > 2:29:15- have not got their interest or their confidence.- I see.
2:29:15 > 2:29:16OK, I just wanted to clarify that.
2:29:16 > 2:29:19All right, one more point, and then I want to come to Hislop here.
2:29:19 > 2:29:22All of this was unnecessary.
2:29:22 > 2:29:25Because the EU is imploding.
2:29:25 > 2:29:27And if we had waited a while,
2:29:27 > 2:29:29we could have led out the factions
2:29:29 > 2:29:32which are most sympathetic to our causes and our needs
2:29:32 > 2:29:34and their needs and causes,
2:29:34 > 2:29:38instead of being blamed for the collapse forever.
2:29:38 > 2:29:39OK, Ian Hislop.
2:29:39 > 2:29:40APPLAUSE
2:29:42 > 2:29:44Applause for the gentleman.
2:29:44 > 2:29:47Again, I can see the reaction in a couple of the rows there -
2:29:47 > 2:29:50you know, sort of whingeing metropolitan losers can't bear it.
2:29:50 > 2:29:54After an election or a referendum, even if you lose the vote,
2:29:54 > 2:29:57you are entitled to go on making the argument.
2:29:57 > 2:29:58When a government...
2:29:58 > 2:29:59APPLAUSE
2:30:01 > 2:30:03When a government in this country wins an election,
2:30:03 > 2:30:06the opposition does not just say, "Oh, that's absolutely right.
2:30:06 > 2:30:08"I've got nothing to say for five years."
2:30:08 > 2:30:10APPLAUSE
2:30:12 > 2:30:15So those of us who, you know,
2:30:15 > 2:30:17were trying fairly hard in the last weeks
2:30:17 > 2:30:20to follow what on earth is happening in this country -
2:30:20 > 2:30:25the Leave vote has left us with a group of leaders who,
2:30:25 > 2:30:27having lit the fire, have all run away, saying,
2:30:27 > 2:30:29"Someone else can clear up the mess."
2:30:29 > 2:30:31APPLAUSE
2:30:31 > 2:30:35The Prime Minister who put us in the mess has resigned.
2:30:35 > 2:30:37Everybody is gone.
2:30:37 > 2:30:40All the people that put their cross down for Leave,
2:30:40 > 2:30:42saying, "This is what we want,"
2:30:42 > 2:30:44they seem to be getting a group of people who say,
2:30:44 > 2:30:48"We can't stop immigration, we can't give £350 million,
2:30:48 > 2:30:51"oh, and by the way, there might be quite a lot of austerity.
2:30:51 > 2:30:53"Sorry. Bye!"
2:30:53 > 2:30:55APPLAUSE
2:30:58 > 2:31:00In the second row, yes.
2:31:01 > 2:31:04Er, yeah, just bringing it back to the original question,
2:31:04 > 2:31:07so because everybody's sort of jumping on the bandwagon
2:31:07 > 2:31:10saying both campaigns have been misleading,
2:31:10 > 2:31:13should there be a governing body that regulates political marketing
2:31:13 > 2:31:16- as we have elsewhere? - What, to control the way messages
2:31:16 > 2:31:19- are put across?- Yes, indeed. - OK, we'll hold that point.
2:31:19 > 2:31:23And the woman there in the third row. Yes, you.
2:31:23 > 2:31:28Er, I wanted to make a point about youths not voting.
2:31:28 > 2:31:31I feel like both sides were just shouting at each other
2:31:31 > 2:31:35and weren't making any good points, and so we didn't feel like
2:31:35 > 2:31:38we were in a position to vote in a way that is informed.
2:31:38 > 2:31:41I personally did vote despite the fact I wasn't in the country,
2:31:41 > 2:31:44I got a proxy vote, I got my mother to vote for me,
2:31:44 > 2:31:47but I met adults who are much older than me
2:31:47 > 2:31:48and they didn't get a proxy vote,
2:31:48 > 2:31:50they weren't even aware they could do that.
2:31:50 > 2:31:54And I just feel like people are blaming us a lot
2:31:54 > 2:31:56for not representing what we believe in,
2:31:56 > 2:31:59but it's not that we're not representing what we believe in,
2:31:59 > 2:32:01we're just not informed because
2:32:01 > 2:32:05- the campaigns haven't presented themselves well enough.- All right.
2:32:05 > 2:32:09Also they haven't tried to, er, reach out to us at all.
2:32:09 > 2:32:11OK. Tom Tugendhat, what do you say to that?
2:32:11 > 2:32:13On either side of the argument.
2:32:13 > 2:32:16Well, I was just going to answer the question, if I may.
2:32:16 > 2:32:19- I know it's a strange habit. But I do think...- Well, you could...
2:32:19 > 2:32:21- IAN:- You haven't been in politics long, have you?
2:32:21 > 2:32:23And you haven't been on Question Time before!
2:32:23 > 2:32:26- The convention is... - That's what I'm talking about...
2:32:26 > 2:32:27Will you be quiet for a moment?
2:32:27 > 2:32:30The questioner there, you can answer her question,
2:32:30 > 2:32:32- and then the main question. - OK, I'm very happy to.
2:32:32 > 2:32:34Because we keep trying to answer the questions people put.
2:32:34 > 2:32:38I think you make legitimate points, but I would also argue very strongly
2:32:38 > 2:32:40that democracy is something we do together,
2:32:40 > 2:32:42it's not something that's done to us.
2:32:42 > 2:32:45So I wouldn't attack the British people's intelligence
2:32:45 > 2:32:46or understanding of the question.
2:32:46 > 2:32:50They understood - we all understood exactly what the question was.
2:32:50 > 2:32:53We're an intelligent and well-educated population.
2:32:53 > 2:32:57And these debates have been happening for years
2:32:57 > 2:33:00on the merits of being in or out of the European Union,
2:33:00 > 2:33:01and the last few months, true,
2:33:01 > 2:33:04the hyperbole has been really quite spectacular,
2:33:04 > 2:33:06but there is...
2:33:06 > 2:33:09a fundamental understanding of the question in this country
2:33:09 > 2:33:12that I think means that the answer is legitimate,
2:33:12 > 2:33:15and while some people didn't choose to vote,
2:33:15 > 2:33:19which I wish they had, but I respect their choice not to,
2:33:19 > 2:33:22I think it's also incumbent on all of us to educate ourselves too.
2:33:22 > 2:33:25We're not sheep to be fed.
2:33:29 > 2:33:31Were you...?
2:33:32 > 2:33:33- Were you a sheep?- Not at all, no.
2:33:33 > 2:33:36- You weren't a sheep...- I spent... - But other people are sheep.
2:33:36 > 2:33:38No, I said we are not.
2:33:38 > 2:33:40- OK. How did you vote? - I voted to remain,
2:33:40 > 2:33:43and I voted to remain for a whole series of different reasons
2:33:43 > 2:33:45that many people in this room will understand.
2:33:45 > 2:33:48But many of my friends voted to leave for a series of reasons...
2:33:48 > 2:33:50OK. You bring us very neatly to another question,
2:33:50 > 2:33:53because the result of your voting to remain
2:33:53 > 2:33:56but not being in a majority is that the Prime Minister stood down.
2:33:56 > 2:33:59We've got a question from Mark Sherry, please. Mark Sherry.
2:33:59 > 2:34:01Thank you. Should there be a general election
2:34:01 > 2:34:04once the Conservative party membership elect their new leader?
2:34:04 > 2:34:07Should there be a general election now that we have the Tory party...?
2:34:07 > 2:34:08What do you think, Ian?
2:34:08 > 2:34:10Yeah, I think there should.
2:34:10 > 2:34:16In terms of basic democracy, which you're very keen on, the referendum,
2:34:16 > 2:34:20the choice of Prime Minister as a result of this string of disasters
2:34:20 > 2:34:24has been that the next Prime Minister will be decided by,
2:34:24 > 2:34:29what, 150,000 members of the Conservative Party membership.
2:34:29 > 2:34:33They're, in a sense, the equivalent of the Labour Party membership.
2:34:33 > 2:34:36- They don't... - GEORGE:- But much smaller.
2:34:36 > 2:34:37A little bit smaller.
2:34:37 > 2:34:39Er...but again, there is a split
2:34:39 > 2:34:42between what the party in Parliament thinks
2:34:42 > 2:34:46and what the membership thinks, and we have two candidates,
2:34:46 > 2:34:48and if you voted Leave, you've got...
2:34:48 > 2:34:51Say you voted Leave because you're worried about immigration,
2:34:51 > 2:34:53you've got a choice of the Home Secretary
2:34:53 > 2:34:56who was in charge of cutting immigration from 300,000
2:34:56 > 2:34:58to tends of thousands and didn't do it.
2:34:58 > 2:35:01If you voted Leave cos you're angry about global capitalism,
2:35:01 > 2:35:04you've got a woman who was funded by a hedge fund.
2:35:04 > 2:35:06She worked in the banking industry.
2:35:06 > 2:35:10That'll really help all those left behind round the country,
2:35:10 > 2:35:13to help hedge-fund managers based in Guernsey.
2:35:13 > 2:35:14What choice is that?!
2:35:19 > 2:35:21Charlie Falconer.
2:35:21 > 2:35:25- Election or not? - I think not necessarily immediately.
2:35:25 > 2:35:29- The reason why not immediately... - Is that Labour might lose.
2:35:29 > 2:35:32No, I'm sure Labour would win handsomely. The reason
2:35:32 > 2:35:36- I think...- Is that why you resigned from the Shadow Cabinet?
2:35:36 > 2:35:38LAUGHTER AND APPLAUSE
2:35:41 > 2:35:44I think there are ways that we might win more handsomely!
2:35:44 > 2:35:47As far as the general election is concerned,
2:35:47 > 2:35:50I think before we have a general election,
2:35:50 > 2:35:51we need to know what it is
2:35:51 > 2:35:56that the new prime minister's stance is going to be with Europe,
2:35:56 > 2:35:59so we have something to vote on.
2:35:59 > 2:36:02It's not just, is it Theresa May or Andrea Leadsom?
2:36:02 > 2:36:07It's also, what is the pitch this person is going to take
2:36:07 > 2:36:09when it comes to negotiating with the EU?
2:36:09 > 2:36:11Because going back to the previous question,
2:36:11 > 2:36:13we do need now to set about working out
2:36:13 > 2:36:16how we are going to leave the European Union
2:36:16 > 2:36:18and what the terms are.
2:36:18 > 2:36:21If a new Prime Minister is going to discharge
2:36:21 > 2:36:25the most pressing responsibility on a Prime Minister now,
2:36:25 > 2:36:28that is to work out what our strategy is
2:36:28 > 2:36:30to leave the European Union
2:36:30 > 2:36:33and ask the people whether they agree with it.
2:36:33 > 2:36:35But only once that strategy is ready.
2:36:35 > 2:36:37So you don't start negotiating,
2:36:37 > 2:36:39but prepare a strategy and go to the country.
2:36:39 > 2:36:42- I think preparing...- So everybody knows your negotiating position
2:36:42 > 2:36:44- and then you go to the country. - You've got to have a position
2:36:44 > 2:36:49- and you've also...- Built up without Article 50 being...?
2:36:49 > 2:36:50Without Article 50, in my view,
2:36:50 > 2:36:54and also first of all asking the European Union capitals
2:36:54 > 2:36:57what they would be... What could be deliverable.
2:36:57 > 2:37:00OK. The woman there in the third row from the back,
2:37:00 > 2:37:03and then I'll come to... somebody else. Yeah, you.
2:37:03 > 2:37:06Um, with talks of an early general election,
2:37:06 > 2:37:09I just urge you to let 16 and 17-year-olds vote.
2:37:09 > 2:37:13My peers and I showed that we had a really healthy appetite
2:37:13 > 2:37:16for political engagement in the EU referendum,
2:37:16 > 2:37:19yet you chose to quite blatantly ignore our view
2:37:19 > 2:37:20and we therefore saw a result
2:37:20 > 2:37:23that is not representative of my age group.
2:37:23 > 2:37:26And I think it's now time the government lets us vote
2:37:26 > 2:37:29- and have an opinion on our future. - The man in the third row here.
2:37:29 > 2:37:33I believe most people alive in this world are outside the EU
2:37:33 > 2:37:36and there's a wider world outside of the EU, and Britain...
2:37:36 > 2:37:39APPLAUSE DROWNS SPEECH
2:37:41 > 2:37:45I think we have so many more opportunities
2:37:45 > 2:37:47to target markets in China,
2:37:47 > 2:37:50in America, North America, and I don't see why
2:37:50 > 2:37:54the fearmongering from the Remain side should continue.
2:37:54 > 2:37:55They should just stop and let's move on.
2:37:55 > 2:37:58Tom, let's come back to the question about a general election.
2:37:58 > 2:38:01Should there be one once the Conservative Party membership
2:38:01 > 2:38:02has elected a new leader on September 9th?
2:38:02 > 2:38:05Following your example I'm just going to say I agree with that man.
2:38:05 > 2:38:07- Suits you now.- Well... I agree with him.
2:38:07 > 2:38:10- CHARLES:- He's picking the whole thing up very well.
2:38:10 > 2:38:13- He's getting it very quickly, yes. - I'm learning from the masters, yes.
2:38:13 > 2:38:16The reality is, there is a wider world out there.
2:38:16 > 2:38:18It isn't the decision I would have made,
2:38:18 > 2:38:21but this is not the end of the world by any means.
2:38:21 > 2:38:24Should there be a general election once there's a new Tory leader?
2:38:24 > 2:38:25You're going to let me finish, aren't you?
2:38:25 > 2:38:27- No, you've said that before.- We...
2:38:27 > 2:38:29- You said it all before.- We...
2:38:29 > 2:38:33If you'd let me start, that would at least get us some way there.
2:38:33 > 2:38:36We've got an extraordinary opportunity now.
2:38:36 > 2:38:38And the opportunity is based on the manifesto
2:38:38 > 2:38:40that those of us who stood in the election
2:38:40 > 2:38:44were elected only about a year ago are going to implement.
2:38:44 > 2:38:48It's a Conservative manifesto for a Conservative leader to deliver.
2:38:48 > 2:38:49But I agree with Charlie.
2:38:49 > 2:38:53I agree that we've got to go some way down this negotiating road
2:38:53 > 2:38:56before we go to an election again. The reason I say that
2:38:56 > 2:38:57is not for any other reason
2:38:57 > 2:39:00than that the country needs stability now.
2:39:00 > 2:39:03We really need to have a little bit of stability
2:39:03 > 2:39:04for businesses to know what we're doing
2:39:04 > 2:39:07so that they can set up and start employing again,
2:39:07 > 2:39:11start to get foreign investment again, start to start again.
2:39:11 > 2:39:14Because once we've got that going,
2:39:14 > 2:39:17once we've got a negotiating strategy ready,
2:39:17 > 2:39:19and once we know what the question is
2:39:19 > 2:39:22that we're actually asking the British people to choose between,
2:39:22 > 2:39:25then it's right that the British people should have that choice.
2:39:25 > 2:39:28Now, whether that choice comes in a general election
2:39:28 > 2:39:31or whether it comes in a separate referendum...
2:39:31 > 2:39:34- What, another referendum?- I would much prefer a general election.
2:39:34 > 2:39:36I would prefer it to be a government position
2:39:36 > 2:39:39- put forward in a general election. - Before the whole deal
2:39:39 > 2:39:42is done and signed and sealed. OK. Sal Brinton.
2:39:42 > 2:39:45I think part of the problem with Tom's argument is that
2:39:45 > 2:39:48that implies the country is in a good place at the moment,
2:39:48 > 2:39:50and it absolutely isn't.
2:39:50 > 2:39:53We've had real problems, before the referendum was called,
2:39:53 > 2:39:54but particularly since.
2:39:54 > 2:39:56Yes, the country does need stability,
2:39:56 > 2:40:00and whilst we are negotiating it's going to be a real problem.
2:40:00 > 2:40:03In terms of should we have a general election quickly,
2:40:03 > 2:40:06that will absolutely be up to the next Prime Minister to call,
2:40:06 > 2:40:08even though we have legislation
2:40:08 > 2:40:10to make it harder for them to achieve that.
2:40:10 > 2:40:12Yes, they will need a mandate,
2:40:12 > 2:40:16because there are many, many people who did not vote Remain
2:40:16 > 2:40:20who will want to know exactly what direction the government's going in,
2:40:20 > 2:40:24but most importantly, the government needs to actually understand
2:40:24 > 2:40:27what it's offering Europe as it starts the negotiations.
2:40:27 > 2:40:29- Can I answer the question about 16 and 17-year-olds?- No.
2:40:29 > 2:40:32- That is really... - No, that's another question
2:40:32 > 2:40:35and we've only got five minutes left and I want a question about Labour.
2:40:35 > 2:40:38But George Galloway, on the general election, briefly,
2:40:38 > 2:40:41- and then we'll come to that. - We need a general election now.
2:40:41 > 2:40:43We're going to have, in a couple of months,
2:40:43 > 2:40:45either John Major in a dress
2:40:45 > 2:40:49or Janet Brown channelling Margaret Thatcher.
2:40:49 > 2:40:51And that's not acceptable.
2:40:51 > 2:40:55Chosen by 150,000 members of the Conservative Party.
2:40:55 > 2:41:00I said this when Gordon Brown foolishly didn't go to the country
2:41:00 > 2:41:03in a general election in 2008.
2:41:03 > 2:41:07I demanded a general election then, and I even said it
2:41:07 > 2:41:10when James Callaghan took over from Harold Wilson,
2:41:10 > 2:41:15so I'm not contradicting any previous positions on this.
2:41:15 > 2:41:19The country is a new country now, after the Brexit vote.
2:41:19 > 2:41:22It wasn't in your manifesto. It couldn't have been,
2:41:22 > 2:41:26because you didn't know we were going to even have a referendum.
2:41:26 > 2:41:29You didn't even want one, it was only that the Liberals...
2:41:29 > 2:41:32Sorry, it was in... We included the need for a referendum.
2:41:32 > 2:41:35But you didn't want to implement it. You hoped the Liberals...
2:41:35 > 2:41:37I stood on a platform specifically wanting...
2:41:37 > 2:41:39Let's not fight that battle. Let's not fight that battle.
2:41:39 > 2:41:42- We have only a few minutes left. - General election in October,
2:41:42 > 2:41:44- that's what I say. - Let's hear from Kevin...
2:41:44 > 2:41:46APPLAUSE
2:41:46 > 2:41:49Let's hear from Kevin Cook, please.
2:41:49 > 2:41:52Is the Labour Party in terminal decline?
2:41:52 > 2:41:55- Charles Falconer. - No, it's not in terminal decline.
2:41:55 > 2:41:58- There is plainly... - LAUGHTER
2:41:58 > 2:42:01- There is...- Why do you all laugh every time he says this?!
2:42:01 > 2:42:02- IAN:- Best joke of the evening.
2:42:02 > 2:42:05- It's not... - AUDIENCE MEMBER SHOUTS
2:42:05 > 2:42:07Sorry. It's not in terminal decline.
2:42:07 > 2:42:10There is plainly a very significant division
2:42:10 > 2:42:13between the Parliamentary Labour Party on the one hand
2:42:13 > 2:42:17and the leadership of the Labour Party on the other.
2:42:17 > 2:42:18I joined the Shadow Cabinet
2:42:18 > 2:42:21when Jeremy became leader of the Labour Party
2:42:21 > 2:42:24because I was absolutely determined to make what contribution I could
2:42:24 > 2:42:28to the unity of the Labour Party. After the Brexit vote,
2:42:28 > 2:42:32when things very dramatically changed in this country,
2:42:32 > 2:42:35I took the view that we needed somebody
2:42:35 > 2:42:39who was an exceptional leader to deal with exceptional times,
2:42:39 > 2:42:43and although Jeremy has had a fundamentally beneficial effect
2:42:43 > 2:42:47on the Labour Party, I don't think he was the person for the times.
2:42:47 > 2:42:49That's why I resigned.
2:42:49 > 2:42:54It doesn't mean that we can't re-unify,
2:42:54 > 2:42:58that is between the leadership and the Parliamentary Labour Party.
2:42:58 > 2:43:00Either because agreement can be reached between us
2:43:00 > 2:43:03or alternatively, if that can't happen, by a leadership election.
2:43:03 > 2:43:08But the Labour Party is most certainly not in terminal decline
2:43:08 > 2:43:11because there will always need to be a centre-left alternative.
2:43:11 > 2:43:14- IAN:- It could be someone else. - Sal Brinton, are you hearing,
2:43:14 > 2:43:16as some people think you might be hearing,
2:43:16 > 2:43:20suggestions from people who are disaffected with Jeremy Corbyn
2:43:20 > 2:43:22thinking they might realign themselves
2:43:22 > 2:43:25with the Liberal Democrats, or is that too patsy a question for you?
2:43:25 > 2:43:29- No...- Because you have to say yes. - I...I will quite happily say
2:43:29 > 2:43:32that we've had some people from Labour Party who've joined us
2:43:32 > 2:43:34over the last few weeks.
2:43:34 > 2:43:37Um, we're certainly talking to an enormous number of people
2:43:37 > 2:43:40who want a real progressive, open
2:43:40 > 2:43:43and very tolerant centre party of the future,
2:43:43 > 2:43:46and if more people continue to join us
2:43:46 > 2:43:48we're delighted to be the flag-head for that.
2:43:48 > 2:43:49Do you think there's a moment for
2:43:49 > 2:43:52a realignment of parties to the left of the Conservative Party?
2:43:52 > 2:43:56I think there absolutely is, and I think part of the problem...
2:43:56 > 2:43:59I mean, I've never heard of somebody defending both Tony Blair
2:43:59 > 2:44:03and Jeremy Corbyn at the same time - well done, Charlie...
2:44:03 > 2:44:06- He was a lawyer!- He's absolutely a lawyer, and it shows.
2:44:06 > 2:44:09- But I think...- I'm Labour. - I think what we are hearing
2:44:09 > 2:44:13is that Labour is not unified. It is absolutely deeply split.
2:44:13 > 2:44:16And there are many, many people in Labour who are unhappy.
2:44:16 > 2:44:19What politics has been missing for some time
2:44:19 > 2:44:22has been that voice that has been able to speak up for
2:44:22 > 2:44:24the progressive things that we want.
2:44:24 > 2:44:27The proportional representation that the lady spoke about at the back,
2:44:27 > 2:44:29so that everyone feels they get a fair vote
2:44:29 > 2:44:31and can actually go out and do that.
2:44:31 > 2:44:34- Their MP means something to them. - All right.
2:44:34 > 2:44:36Fair enough, thank you.
2:44:36 > 2:44:38Er, George Galloway.
2:44:38 > 2:44:42Charlie, there are many ways of describing Angela Eagle,
2:44:42 > 2:44:45but an exceptional leader she is not.
2:44:45 > 2:44:48You have got an exceptional leader.
2:44:48 > 2:44:51Far from being in terminal decline,
2:44:51 > 2:44:55Labour now has 600,000 members,
2:44:55 > 2:44:58the biggest membership since the end of the Second World War.
2:44:58 > 2:45:03And 200,000 of those joined in the last ten days.
2:45:03 > 2:45:08Jeremy Corbyn can fill halls up and down this country,
2:45:08 > 2:45:11hundreds of thousands of people are joining the Labour Party,
2:45:11 > 2:45:14and if people like Charlie don't like it,
2:45:14 > 2:45:17why don't they clear off and join the Liberal Democrats?
2:45:17 > 2:45:19- But...- I'm not... - APPLAUSE
2:45:19 > 2:45:21I'm not clearing off from Labour,
2:45:21 > 2:45:23I'm not joining the Liberal Democrats and I'm determined
2:45:23 > 2:45:25to stay in a Labour Party...
2:45:25 > 2:45:28Well, stop stabbing the leader that was elected just nine months ago.
2:45:28 > 2:45:29APPLAUSE
2:45:29 > 2:45:32- But he doesn't... IAN:- This is George, who left the Labour Party...
2:45:32 > 2:45:35- I didn't leave.- ..and joined Respect. You were thrown out.
2:45:35 > 2:45:37I was expelled by Tony Blair.
2:45:37 > 2:45:39- His flatmate. - And you never came back!
2:45:39 > 2:45:41APPLAUSE
2:45:41 > 2:45:45And Jeremy Corbyn doesn't seem very keen on you, either.
2:45:45 > 2:45:48He thought the tactics you used against Naz Shah were appalling -
2:45:48 > 2:45:50"I'm quite shocked", he said.
2:45:50 > 2:45:53- Don't believe what you read...- In the New Statesman, written by him?
2:45:53 > 2:45:56- Why not? - Except it wasn't written by him.
2:45:56 > 2:45:58He put his name to it. You know the convention.
2:45:58 > 2:46:01- No, he didn't.- He didn't even put his name to it?- No.- OK.
2:46:01 > 2:46:03Being attacked in the New Statesman
2:46:03 > 2:46:05is like being slandered in an empty room.
2:46:05 > 2:46:06SCATTERED LAUGHTER
2:46:06 > 2:46:11Well, again, George's reputation for that, I can't go there.
2:46:11 > 2:46:15- The idea that Jeremy...- Is Labour in terminal decline, was the question.
2:46:15 > 2:46:17Er, it's in a really serious problem.
2:46:17 > 2:46:20The parliamentary party hates the leadership,
2:46:20 > 2:46:22the leadership says it's not going anywhere.
2:46:22 > 2:46:25Jeremy Corbyn appears to be taken hostage in a small room
2:46:25 > 2:46:27somewhere with a group of carers
2:46:27 > 2:46:31who are literally saying things like, "Leave him alone.
2:46:31 > 2:46:34"We can't let people talk to him, they'll bully him. He's 70."
2:46:34 > 2:46:36Well, then, don't be leader!
2:46:36 > 2:46:39What this country needs - and it's really pathetic at the moment,
2:46:39 > 2:46:42we don't have a government, we don't have an opposition.
2:46:42 > 2:46:44We need both. That's what I call democracy.
2:46:44 > 2:46:46OK. Tom.
2:46:46 > 2:46:48APPLAUSE
2:46:48 > 2:46:49Briefly, if you would.
2:46:49 > 2:46:51Tom.
2:46:51 > 2:46:53I'm very proud to be a Conservative politician,
2:46:53 > 2:46:55of course, to stand on a platform
2:46:55 > 2:46:58that I think is going to change the life chances of so many.
2:46:58 > 2:47:00But also, I'm more proud to be British,
2:47:00 > 2:47:03and British democracy relies on a government and an opposition.
2:47:03 > 2:47:06And sadly at the moment, we don't have an opposition
2:47:06 > 2:47:08that is making the cases that need to be made,
2:47:08 > 2:47:11and that isn't good for us, it's not good for Parliament,
2:47:11 > 2:47:13and most importantly, it's not good for our country.
2:47:13 > 2:47:16OK. We'll take a point from you, sir, then we have to close.
2:47:16 > 2:47:18You had both hands up, so I'm calling on you.
2:47:18 > 2:47:21Maybe Labour needs a new leader
2:47:21 > 2:47:24and it should be George Galloway in a catsuit.
2:47:24 > 2:47:26LAUGHTER
2:47:26 > 2:47:27APPLAUSE
2:47:31 > 2:47:35All right. I think he is up for it.
2:47:35 > 2:47:38All right, and a point from the woman there. Yes.
2:47:38 > 2:47:41- Very briefly.- I don't think there's any point in a general election,
2:47:41 > 2:47:43because what will happen is Murdoch will decide
2:47:43 > 2:47:45who rules this country next, and nobody else.
2:47:45 > 2:47:47APPLAUSE
2:47:48 > 2:47:50- IAN:- We don't have to do what he says!
2:47:50 > 2:47:54- No, you can take Private Eye's view instead.- Quite.
2:47:54 > 2:47:55Much, much more reliable.
2:47:55 > 2:47:59I'm sorry, we have to end. We have to end the programme here.
2:47:59 > 2:48:03It's also the end of, er, this run of Question Time, tonight.
2:48:03 > 2:48:08Officially we're going to be back on Thursday 15th September
2:48:08 > 2:48:12in Salisbury and on 22nd September in Wakefield,
2:48:12 > 2:48:15and the usual arrangement, just go to our website,
2:48:15 > 2:48:18there's the address there, or call 0330 123 99 88,
2:48:18 > 2:48:20if you'd like to come.
2:48:20 > 2:48:23Events may, of course, mean we come back earlier.
2:48:23 > 2:48:25I don't know what kind of events,
2:48:25 > 2:48:27but possibly the Tory leadership campaign,
2:48:27 > 2:48:31and if that happens we'll be announcing that on our website,
2:48:31 > 2:48:33on Twitter, and on our Face page.
2:48:33 > 2:48:35Er, Facebook page.
2:48:35 > 2:48:38So I hope that all makes sense.
2:48:38 > 2:48:42Radio 5 Live, the debate goes on on Question Time Extra Time.
2:48:42 > 2:48:44I'd just like to thank our panel here
2:48:44 > 2:48:47and all of you who came to Brighton to take part,
2:48:47 > 2:48:51and say that until we meet again, from Question Time, goodnight.