:00:00. > :00:13.Tonight we're in Salisbury, and this is Question Time.
:00:14. > :00:16.Welcome to you, and to our panel tonight.
:00:17. > :00:20.Conservative former Business Minister Anna Soubry.
:00:21. > :00:24.and Jeremy Corbyn's close ally, John McDonnell.
:00:25. > :00:29.The SNP's justice spokesperson at Westminster, Joanna Cherry.
:00:30. > :00:31.The Daily Mail theatre critic and Parliamentary sketch writer
:00:32. > :00:45.And Tony Blair's former Director of Communications,
:00:46. > :00:57.Before we take our first question,
:00:58. > :01:02.don't forget Facebook, Twitter, or text 83981 to comment
:01:03. > :01:24.Our first question from Martyn Ball, please. Our grammar school was the
:01:25. > :01:29.answer to our education mess? Anna Soubry? I am not sure I would
:01:30. > :01:33.describe it as a mess. It is right that there are 1.25 and children
:01:34. > :01:36.either in poor schools, or schools that need to improve, but I think it
:01:37. > :01:41.is right to have a debate and it is right that we should look at new
:01:42. > :01:44.options. In many ways, what the Government is putting forward is
:01:45. > :01:47.something new, which is that existing grammar schools might be
:01:48. > :01:53.able to effectively have satellite schools in neighbouring areas. I
:01:54. > :01:58.will be very frank with you. In my constituency we have four secondary
:01:59. > :02:02.schools. I don't think we even need or want a grammar school. One of my
:02:03. > :02:05.schools is an outstanding academy that has benefited from the Academy
:02:06. > :02:09.programme of the last coalition government, and I am a firm believer
:02:10. > :02:14.in continuing with the Academy programme. But I think it's right we
:02:15. > :02:17.have a debate about it. But I take the view that grammar schools are
:02:18. > :02:21.not the silver bullet that I think some people think they are. But when
:02:22. > :02:25.I look at my neighbouring city of Nottingham, and we have had decades
:02:26. > :02:28.of bad Labour rule and poor schools, I want to know what the solutions
:02:29. > :02:33.are going to be to make sure that every child, wherever they are,
:02:34. > :02:39.whatever their background, that they all have the great school that every
:02:40. > :02:44.child needs and deserves. That is the task. Will you vote against when
:02:45. > :02:50.it comes to it? I don't go have a problem with... Take Lincolnshire,
:02:51. > :02:54.which has the 11 plus. If there is a need, in a town like Newark, which
:02:55. > :02:57.borders Lincolnshire, where we know there are parents who choose to put
:02:58. > :03:01.their children into grammar schools in Lincolnshire, if they have a
:03:02. > :03:04.satellite school there and it is seen to be a good thing to raise
:03:05. > :03:08.what has been a problem in that town with its existing school, I wouldn't
:03:09. > :03:14.have an ideological opposition to that. I would struggle if we said
:03:15. > :03:17.that the solution in a city like Nottingham is to have grammar
:03:18. > :03:21.schools. I look at what has happened in London and we have achieved huge
:03:22. > :03:26.success in London by building up the Academy programme, by having great,
:03:27. > :03:30.brilliant teachers, by putting aspiration into our schools. That, I
:03:31. > :03:35.believe, is the real solution to making sure every child has a great
:03:36. > :03:39.school. And not the grammar school as an absolute guarantee. I don't
:03:40. > :03:43.think it's an absolute, and we certainly don't want to go back to
:03:44. > :03:48.the system which existed when I was young, a long time ago. I took the
:03:49. > :03:51.11 plus and passed. Lots of people failed and they bore that for the
:03:52. > :03:51.rest of their lives, and that was wrong.
:03:52. > :04:03.APPLAUSE I think that was a very heroic
:04:04. > :04:08.effort by Anna Soubry to pretend that actually she thinks this is
:04:09. > :04:11.anything other than a pretty silly policy. And she is absolutely right
:04:12. > :04:15.and that is the indication she gave in the House of Commons. If you
:04:16. > :04:19.watched the end of this programme last week it was announced that
:04:20. > :04:22.Justine Greening was going to be on the panel. Although Twitter has said
:04:23. > :04:26.I have come on to have a Barney with John McDonnell, I was hoping to have
:04:27. > :04:36.a Barney with Justine Greening about this ridiculous policy. The reason
:04:37. > :04:42.why... I honestly don't know why Theresa May is doing this. She has
:04:43. > :04:48.no mandate for it. David Cameron was absolutely clear that he thought
:04:49. > :04:52.this was a red great step. If you look at the countries that have the
:04:53. > :04:57.best educated children, around the world there are three that come up
:04:58. > :05:06.again and again. Finland, South Korea and the other one is... Never
:05:07. > :05:12.save three! Finland, South Korea and Canada. And they have the most
:05:13. > :05:19.components of systems. They understand that comprehensive means
:05:20. > :05:21.all-inclusive. The point about selection, Theresa May is trying to
:05:22. > :05:27.give the impression that everybody will be selected to go to a grammar
:05:28. > :05:32.school. Selection means rejection. And the rejection that Anna Soubry
:05:33. > :05:37.talked about, and I went to two grammar schools, and the rejection,
:05:38. > :05:42.I think, does give people a sense of stigma that can stay with them
:05:43. > :05:46.through their lives. This country has suffered for too long by having
:05:47. > :05:50.an elitist approach to education. And we should finally give proper
:05:51. > :06:02.comprehensive education a real go. APPLAUSE
:06:03. > :06:08.I don't agree with Alistair. I don't think we have had an elitist
:06:09. > :06:13.approach to education for a long time. And I can't see what is wrong
:06:14. > :06:18.with selection. OK, that brings rejection, but we are a country of X
:06:19. > :06:23.Factor and Britain's Got Talent. People are comfortable with the idea
:06:24. > :06:29.of children advancing on merit. I can understand why a Labour are
:06:30. > :06:33.uneasy about grammar schools, because if you have been brought up
:06:34. > :06:38.doing Latin prep and start into a tight blazer you are less likely to
:06:39. > :06:44.be a socialist. I don't know what they tight little blazer as to do
:06:45. > :06:48.with being a socialist. That is what he wore. That is what I am still
:06:49. > :06:50.wearing. But what I cannot understand is people in the centre
:06:51. > :06:53.and certain people in the Conservative Party who are opposed
:06:54. > :06:57.to grammar schools, because it strikes me they are about
:06:58. > :07:03.aspiration, excellence, opportunity and about... Let me finish. And
:07:04. > :07:08.about competition. And I think competition is very important. The
:07:09. > :07:13.question was whether grammars are the answer to our schools mess. I
:07:14. > :07:16.don't think that is even close to what is being proposed because there
:07:17. > :07:20.are so many other types of school and they will continue. But if
:07:21. > :07:24.people want grammars, if parents want grammars and if teachers want
:07:25. > :07:29.to teach in grammars, let it happen. I am in favour of that, because it
:07:30. > :07:33.strikes me as common sense, children, if they are in a class
:07:34. > :07:38.with their own ability, are likely to hit off each other and do better
:07:39. > :07:43.as a result. And I can't see why we can have selection on merit in
:07:44. > :07:49.music, we can have it in games, why can't we have it with academic
:07:50. > :07:55.excellence? There are a lot of hands up so let's hear from our audience.
:07:56. > :07:59.The woman in red. I was just wondering, with regard to the towns
:08:00. > :08:02.and cities that do not have grammar schools, the schools that are there
:08:03. > :08:06.and not necessarily doing as well, why aren't we putting more money and
:08:07. > :08:09.investing in those schools to support the children that have
:08:10. > :08:10.learning difficulties, disabilities, mental health problems?
:08:11. > :08:20.APPLAUSE That's exact the what we're doing.
:08:21. > :08:24.The man with spectacles. The competition on the X Factor is for
:08:25. > :08:28.entertainment, and 90% of that in the early stages is about
:08:29. > :08:32.humiliation. And I think selection of 11-year-olds to take the cream
:08:33. > :08:36.off the top, as the elites would put it, I think it is a scandal and the
:08:37. > :08:42.debate should end right now. APPLAUSE
:08:43. > :08:49.Two voices against, any in favour of more grammar schools? Yes, I am in
:08:50. > :08:57.favour of grammar schools. I was going to the man behind. There is
:08:58. > :09:02.competition here! Firstly, I went to a grammar school sixth form myself.
:09:03. > :09:06.I think we need to remember that Theresa May's proposals are not just
:09:07. > :09:11.saying there will be 111 plus and if you fail you have no chance of going
:09:12. > :09:16.to a grammar school. There will be 12, 13 plus, so there is going to be
:09:17. > :09:22.a bit of time, if someone does not pass their 11 plus. They can try
:09:23. > :09:27.again the next year. I think it really does foster this idea of
:09:28. > :09:33.aspiration. That is part of the reason why I managed to get into the
:09:34. > :09:38.grammar school sixth form nearby. I just want to quickly go to a point
:09:39. > :09:42.Alistair made about the divisions in our education system today. If we
:09:43. > :09:47.are going to be talking about a lack of fairness in our education system
:09:48. > :09:51.and rejection, why can't we talk about private schools and the role
:09:52. > :10:05.they have? I agree with that. John McDonnell. Watch my lips. I agree
:10:06. > :10:13.with Alastair Campbell 100%.! What, that new Labour was a great success?
:10:14. > :10:18.He is at it again with spin, isn't he? New Labour never abolished the
:10:19. > :10:21.grammar schools, did they? We prevented the extension of any new
:10:22. > :10:28.ones. And actually, I frankly wish that we had. But that is a very
:10:29. > :10:32.difficult opinion to hold at that time. Tony Blair took a judgment
:10:33. > :10:36.that it wasn't worth the political aggravation we would have, but I
:10:37. > :10:42.think we should have dealt with this once and for all. Outlawed
:10:43. > :10:45.selection? Yes. All of the evidenced in straits that grammar schools will
:10:46. > :10:50.benefit a limited few but will not benefit others and do not raise
:10:51. > :10:56.standards overall. That is not just me talking. That is why David
:10:57. > :11:00.Cameron opposed it, as Alistair said, that is what he said it was
:11:01. > :11:03.taking us back to the 1950s. The head of Ofsted, the very person
:11:04. > :11:08.appointed by the government to look at social mode to, the Institute for
:11:09. > :11:13.education, all those international comparisons. This is the wrong way
:11:14. > :11:17.to go. The right way to go is to recognise we have problems in our
:11:18. > :11:21.education system, partly about underinvestment. Class sizes are
:11:22. > :11:24.rising on a large scale. In addition, we have lost in this last
:11:25. > :11:28.year or so the largest number of teachers from this profession that
:11:29. > :11:30.we have lost in a generation, largely because of the intense
:11:31. > :11:35.pressure they are under on a teaching to the test system we have.
:11:36. > :11:38.If you look at where we have succeeded in the past in raising
:11:39. > :11:43.standards, yes, look at what happened under Tony Blair,
:11:44. > :11:46.education, education, education, under London challenge, where we had
:11:47. > :11:50.some of the worst schools in the country. We put in resources, made
:11:51. > :11:56.sure we brought in the best teachers possible, and now we have the best
:11:57. > :12:00.schools in the country. And this isn't, as well, about rich and poor
:12:01. > :12:03.areas. Some of the best schools in London, as a result of that
:12:04. > :12:07.investment, are in the poorest boroughs. That is the way forward,
:12:08. > :12:13.that is the way about investment and respecting the professionals within
:12:14. > :12:15.the field itself. This is really dangerous, but I agree with John
:12:16. > :12:20.McDonnell. APPLAUSE
:12:21. > :12:25.Joanna Cherry, as an SNP MP you do not really have a dog in the fight
:12:26. > :12:32.when it comes to it because this is about England, not Scotland. Yes,
:12:33. > :12:36.David. Education is devolved. We will have to look carefully at any
:12:37. > :12:39.proposals brought forward by the Conservative government at
:12:40. > :12:42.Westminster to see whether they have financial implications for Scotland.
:12:43. > :12:45.But we do not believe grammar schools are the answer to the
:12:46. > :12:50.challenges of the education system. The challenge to the education
:12:51. > :12:54.system in a democracy should be to give every child the best chance
:12:55. > :12:58.possible of having a good education. It is natural for parents to want to
:12:59. > :13:01.do the best possible for their own children, but the government has to
:13:02. > :13:05.do the best possible for all children. And all the evidence shows
:13:06. > :13:09.that children from low income families do worse in selective
:13:10. > :13:13.systems. Kent has a selective system. Evidence shows that in Kent,
:13:14. > :13:17.children from low income families are not doing as well as other
:13:18. > :13:21.children. Theresa May, when she came to power, made a song and dance
:13:22. > :13:24.about how she wants to represent working-class families. But in
:13:25. > :13:30.relation to this policy which she has pulled out of a hat, the reality
:13:31. > :13:33.does not match her rhetoric. Every country faces challenges with
:13:34. > :13:38.education. We face a challenge in Scotland and Nicola Sturgeon has put
:13:39. > :13:40.closing the attainment gap at the heart of our programme for
:13:41. > :13:45.government. But the way we are doing that is to invest in all children.
:13:46. > :13:49.We have doubled early life care, so there is double the amount of time
:13:50. > :13:53.available for three-year olds and four-year-olds in preschool care, we
:13:54. > :13:57.are investing ?700 million across the schools sector in all schools to
:13:58. > :13:59.improve standards, and we are tackling the underlying social
:14:00. > :14:03.inequality that means some children do not do as well as others by
:14:04. > :14:08.tackling child poverty in the child poverty Bill. That is the way
:14:09. > :14:12.forward, that every child gets the same chance. Does your experience in
:14:13. > :14:18.Scotland in title due to vote on England and English education and
:14:19. > :14:23.grammar schools in England? As I have said, we are at an early stage.
:14:24. > :14:27.I have asked a direct question. You have talked about the proposals. Do
:14:28. > :14:32.you think the SNP has a dog in the fight, or should it stand back and
:14:33. > :14:36.say this is a matter for England? I can't answer whether the SNP has a
:14:37. > :14:42.dog in the fight until I see the legislation. It will not affect
:14:43. > :14:45.Scotland. Fit has implications for the Scottish budget, we will vote on
:14:46. > :14:46.it but we have to see the legislation before we make a
:14:47. > :14:54.decision. Let's hear from some members of the
:14:55. > :14:59.audience, you in the striped shirt, please? I went to the local grammar
:15:00. > :15:03.school after failing the 11 plus and 12 plus and finally passing the 13
:15:04. > :15:07.plus and all through that period of time at 11, I felt like I was
:15:08. > :15:11.useless, didn't deserve an education, that was kind of higher
:15:12. > :15:16.than everyone else because there's only one grammar school in the whole
:15:17. > :15:21.area so it's kind of amplified anyway. You know, I think with a
:15:22. > :15:24.crisis in young people's mental health anyway, why are we putting
:15:25. > :15:28.that pressure on 11-year-olds when we could be putting more money into
:15:29. > :15:38.fantastic comprehensives? ! APPLAUSE.
:15:39. > :15:43.How did you feel at 13? I felt like, when I look at it
:15:44. > :15:47.retrospectively, it was ridiculous, I felt that I finally got somewhere
:15:48. > :15:51.that I finally deserved to be and once I got to university and was
:15:52. > :15:54.surrounded by kids from public school, I realised, oh, actually
:15:55. > :15:59.maybe we are all in the same place and there are plenty of wonderful
:16:00. > :16:02.kids here who had comprehensive school education and I was obsessed
:16:03. > :16:04.with something because of the surroundings that I was expected to
:16:05. > :16:10.do. The woman in the second row?
:16:11. > :16:15.I went to a grammar school. I don't feel it did me any better or worse
:16:16. > :16:19.than any other school. There are a lot of children at that time that
:16:20. > :16:23.came from all different social classes and backgrounds and they all
:16:24. > :16:27.did equally as well. My concern with grammars at the moment is that a lot
:16:28. > :16:33.of parents are paying for their children to have specific training
:16:34. > :16:35.for this test and they are only passing because they've been given
:16:36. > :16:40.specific training to get through the 11 plus. These children can get to
:16:41. > :16:45.grammar school and then find Thirlwall out of their depth.
:16:46. > :16:49.A brief point? These stories which are very interesting show surely
:16:50. > :16:52.that those tremendous appetites for grammars, there is pressure on
:16:53. > :16:59.grammar places, people want their children in them. Does that not come
:17:00. > :17:01.out of these stories? They are tremendous equalisers of
:17:02. > :17:05.opportunity. Social mobility is going the wrong way at the moment.
:17:06. > :17:09.The grammar school system's not helped social mobility and I believe
:17:10. > :17:12.very firmly that grammars could open up opportunities to kids from poor
:17:13. > :17:19.backgrounds who've got the brainpower. It must be right. But 3%
:17:20. > :17:23.of grammar school pupils have free school meals, 3% compared to 15 in
:17:24. > :17:30.the States. Grammar schools could be dog that now, they don't. Kent and
:17:31. > :17:35.Buckinghamshire, for example, huge counties. The attainment gap in Ken
:17:36. > :17:40.and Buckinghamshire is twice as big as in Hackney which is one of the
:17:41. > :17:44.poorest communities, as John said. You at the back there. We must keep
:17:45. > :17:49.moving because we have a lot of questions. I seem to be the only
:17:50. > :17:53.person in the room that went to a secondary school and failed the
:17:54. > :17:59.11-plus and I'm proud that I did it. I felt that if I'd gone to a grammar
:18:00. > :18:03.school at the time, I wouldn't have fitted in, that the education that I
:18:04. > :18:07.got in the secondary school was just right for me. I was at the top of
:18:08. > :18:13.the secondary school so I felt really good. It was a bit
:18:14. > :18:20.patronising from one of the members to say, they had that for the rest
:18:21. > :18:25.of their lives. Some do. Many did. Lots don't and every person is
:18:26. > :18:30.different. If you are academically inclined, then you need a school
:18:31. > :18:34.that can cater to that. If you are not academic, you need a school to
:18:35. > :18:37.cater that as well. A lot of hands up, we can't obviously do the whole
:18:38. > :18:40.programme on grammar schools, interesting as it would be, but
:18:41. > :18:44.hands up in the audience for those who'd like to see in principle, more
:18:45. > :18:49.grammar schools, and then I'll ask for those who don't, and how many
:18:50. > :18:55.would not like to see more? That's a two to one. OK. Thank you very much.
:18:56. > :19:00.We'll go on to another question, but before we do, we are in Sutton
:19:01. > :19:07.Coldfield in Birmingham next week and Boston in Lincolnshire the week
:19:08. > :19:13.after that. Come and join us. Go to the website address or you can phone
:19:14. > :19:18.you will. Details at the end. Let's have another question from Olivia
:19:19. > :19:24.Parsons, please? With the Labour Party currently tearing Riths apart,
:19:25. > :19:28.is the SNP the only credible opposition to the Government? --
:19:29. > :19:33.tearing itself apart. Alastair Campbell? The SNP is the Government
:19:34. > :19:39.in Scotland and I think the way that the SNP became the Government has
:19:40. > :19:45.lessons for the Labour Party. My real worry about the Labour Party at
:19:46. > :19:52.the moment is that if we are not careful, we can go into frankly
:19:53. > :19:57.oblivion. We have no divine right to exist. There were times, Joanna I
:19:58. > :20:00.talked about this earlier, the Labour Party took Scotland for
:20:01. > :20:05.granted for a long time, far too long and we paid a very, very heavy
:20:06. > :20:11.price. And I fear that what's happening at the moment with the
:20:12. > :20:16.Labour Party is that we are not reaching out beyond a fairly narrow
:20:17. > :20:19.core. It's great that Jeremy and John and the rest of them have
:20:20. > :20:25.brought in lots of new people into the party and there's a lot of
:20:26. > :20:30.energy in there. But I worry that we are losing the things that you need
:20:31. > :20:35.to do, both the policy agenda and the politics that actually allow you
:20:36. > :20:39.to win general elections. What are you thinking of in particular? Into
:20:40. > :20:44.politics has become, you are right about tearing itself apart and I
:20:45. > :20:50.think that in a sense, I'm not saying there's only blame on Jeremy
:20:51. > :20:55.Corbyn, but I do think this whole momentum thing has been incredibly
:20:56. > :20:58.divisive. I think a lot of people in the Labour Party, who've been in the
:20:59. > :21:04.Labour Party a long time, feel this is going back to a politics of the
:21:05. > :21:09.1980s. There is a nastiness in the party which we haven't had since the
:21:10. > :21:13.1980s and there's always been an element within the Labour Party that
:21:14. > :21:20.prefers having power in the party to winning power in the country. You
:21:21. > :21:25.need that. That's fine. But you can't have that as the driving force
:21:26. > :21:29.in the party. Now, when I say this, and I guarantee now the Twitter
:21:30. > :21:34.trolls will be straight in, he's obsessed with winning, he's a Tory,
:21:35. > :21:40.I get it all the time. I'm obsessed with winning because unless we win,
:21:41. > :21:44.the Tories can bring back grammar schools, unless we win, we wouldn't
:21:45. > :21:47.have been able to have things like the minimum wage and Sure Start and
:21:48. > :21:50.Steve luges to Scotland and peace in Northern Ireland and all the others
:21:51. > :21:54.things that we did. You have to win power in this country. John talks
:21:55. > :21:58.about build ago social movement. Social movements don't deliver the
:21:59. > :22:02.things that a Labour Government did and a Labour Government in the
:22:03. > :22:08.future can, so I do want the Labour Party to unite, but it has to unite
:22:09. > :22:13.around something, a policy agenda an politics that we can actually go to
:22:14. > :22:18.places like this. I can remember we went to Dorset south in 1997 not far
:22:19. > :22:21.from here and the media said, this is just a stunt you coming to Dorset
:22:22. > :22:27.south, you are never going to win this. We won it and held it. Not by
:22:28. > :22:31.being hard left, not by saying, anybody who's a Tory is a bad
:22:32. > :22:35.person. We are going to have to get Tories to volt for us, we are going
:22:36. > :22:41.to have to get SNP people to vote for us, and a is how we win. And if
:22:42. > :22:44.we don't understand that, and act according to that, I'm afraid I
:22:45. > :22:53.worry genuinely that we are facing oblivion.
:22:54. > :22:56.APPLAUSE. John McDonnell? We have to win. We
:22:57. > :23:01.have to win. No-one's arguing that we don't have to win, we have to win
:23:02. > :23:04.elections and we have to ensure that we have the broadest appeal. We have
:23:05. > :23:11.to recognise the political times in which we are in. The reason Jeremy
:23:12. > :23:15.Corbyn got elected leader is because he reflects a movement right across
:23:16. > :23:20.Europe and America as well, people have been through the crash of 2008,
:23:21. > :23:23.people have experienced the austerity over the years and wanted
:23:24. > :23:26.something different. People who wanted a straightforward politics as
:23:27. > :23:31.well without spin and triang layings. We had straightforward
:23:32. > :23:37.policies. It was straightforward. Let me finish. Let me finish. I
:23:38. > :23:41.think that's what people voted for when they eelected Jeremy to be
:23:42. > :23:44.leader of the party. And at that point in time, we'd lost a general
:23:45. > :23:49.election, we were between seven and ten points behind in the polls. What
:23:50. > :23:53.then happen suicide that we won't every Parliamentary by-election and
:23:54. > :23:58.increased our majorities, we won every mayoral election, we matched
:23:59. > :24:02.Ed Miliband in the local council elections at his highest. So you
:24:03. > :24:09.were on course to victory? Let me just... Hang on, these long lists...
:24:10. > :24:15.Let me finish this point, overtaken the Conservatives in the polls so we
:24:16. > :24:18.were laying the foundations, I believe, for electoral victory in
:24:19. > :24:21.due course and were bringing together the party left, right and
:24:22. > :24:25.centre. The Shadow Cabinet that Jeremy appointed was from left,
:24:26. > :24:28.right and centre. What went wrong because you are now clearly not
:24:29. > :24:31.leading the polls? Fair enough, fair enough. The lesson we have got to
:24:32. > :24:37.learn very clearly is that people will not vote for a divided party.
:24:38. > :24:40.What happened is that a group of unfortunately people within the
:24:41. > :24:44.party weren't willing to accept Jeremy's mandate, they launched what
:24:45. > :24:47.was effectively a coup and we have had a couple of months of absolute
:24:48. > :24:51.distraction. I'm interested in one thing, do you think the country as a
:24:52. > :24:55.whole has moved to the left? You make no bones about saying you are a
:24:56. > :25:01.Marxist, your reaction to the capitalist. I'm a Marxist, I'm
:25:02. > :25:03.honest with people, is that what the country wants from a Chancellor of
:25:04. > :25:09.the Exchequer. I'm a socialist. Marxist is the words you used. Why
:25:10. > :25:13.did you say I'm a Marxist? I was demonstrating a prediction of the
:25:14. > :25:19.capitalist crisis at the time. I'm honest with people, you said, I'm a
:25:20. > :25:23.Marxist. I was saying I was predicting what would be said in
:25:24. > :25:27.terms of the economic crisis. You said, I'm a Marxist. Go on YouTube
:25:28. > :25:34.and you can watch it. APPLAUSE.
:25:35. > :25:39.And I'll tell you something else. I was predicting what was coming. You
:25:40. > :25:45.are a very nasty piece of work and I shall tell you this as well, let me
:25:46. > :25:48.tell you what's happened... Let me finish. Let me tell you what's
:25:49. > :25:54.happening in Parliament, I don't agree with Labour MPs but there are
:25:55. > :25:58.a number who're good and honourable. Decent people who believe in things
:25:59. > :26:03.that I don't agree with. But they add value and they are elected, they
:26:04. > :26:07.haven't formed a Government but they are there to do a job. The job they
:26:08. > :26:11.are there to do is to hold my Government to account and to
:26:12. > :26:15.represent those of you who're not Conservatives and make sure that
:26:16. > :26:23.your voice is heard and democracy prevails. And many of these people
:26:24. > :26:27.are frightened, so frightened, humiliated, almost terrorised by Mr
:26:28. > :26:30.McDonnell and his gang, they will leave politics and that's bad for
:26:31. > :26:34.politics. Absolute rubbish. And there is a final example of it,
:26:35. > :26:39.ladies and gentlemen. You are being let down, as a democracy. We need
:26:40. > :26:44.good, strong oppositions who're credible, who test Government, hold
:26:45. > :26:48.them to account. APPLAUSE.
:26:49. > :26:53.We are in the position of relying on the SNP to do the job of the
:26:54. > :26:59.opposition. John McDonnell. It's shameful. You said he was a very
:27:00. > :27:04.nasty piece of work. I think he is. You mange that, you need to justify
:27:05. > :27:08.it if you have said that? There are colleagues of mine in the House of
:27:09. > :27:14.Commons, Labour MPs, who are at the point of being terrorised by
:27:15. > :27:20.McDonnell and his cronies. By who? They don't stand up to them. There
:27:21. > :27:26.are women MPs who suffer day in and day out from misogynist unpleasant
:27:27. > :27:30.sexist abuse on Twitter, Facebook, from people who apparently are
:27:31. > :27:35.within their own party. There is a Jewish Labour MP, a woman, who is
:27:36. > :27:39.living in a safe house because of the levels of anti-Semitism she has
:27:40. > :27:46.to bear. It's a disgrace and it must stop and you, Sir, can stop it.
:27:47. > :27:51.APPLAUSE. Alastair Campbell, do you... Sorry,
:27:52. > :27:57.let me respond. Do you recognise that picture... I will let you.
:27:58. > :28:00.You've not allowed me to spook. Let me make this absolute clear and we
:28:01. > :28:05.have made it clear time and time again - we will not tolerate abuse
:28:06. > :28:07.within the Labour Party, we've condemned it time and time again.
:28:08. > :28:12.APPLAUSE. Every time there's been a level of
:28:13. > :28:15.abuse that's been waged, Jeremy Corbyn's made it absolutely clear,
:28:16. > :28:19.if we have identified the individual, they'll be out of this
:28:20. > :28:22.party and suspended, simple as that. We are not accepting this smear
:28:23. > :28:26.campaign that's going on from the Tories and others as well. We've
:28:27. > :28:31.been working, over the last year, to unite the party, and we were winning
:28:32. > :28:36.electorally and in the polls. Yes, a coup was launched by a small
:28:37. > :28:40.minority who could not accept Jeremy's mandate. What we... We are
:28:41. > :28:49.a small minority who could not accept the mandate. Jeremy was
:28:50. > :28:54.elected on the basis of 59.5% of our members. We are now going through a
:28:55. > :28:59.democratic election. Once that election is over, whoever is the
:29:00. > :29:04.leader, whoever is the leader, we will unite behind. And we have been
:29:05. > :29:08.effective opposition in terms of defeating the Tories on Tax Credits,
:29:09. > :29:13.PIP, cuts for disabled people and a range of other things. What were you
:29:14. > :29:21.saying at the back there? Who was shouting out about MPs?
:29:22. > :29:30.It was 80% of MPs who had no confidence in Jeremy Corbyn. That
:29:31. > :29:36.isn't what a minority. Alastair Campbell, do you recognise anything
:29:37. > :29:40.of what Anna Soubry said in Labour? I said earlier, I will not get
:29:41. > :29:43.personal, I said earlier I think there is a level of nasty nurse in
:29:44. > :29:48.the Labour Party at the moment that is upsetting for a lot of people. --
:29:49. > :29:52.nasty nurse. It is not necessary and it is not nice. I think it is
:29:53. > :29:55.because there are some elements of the old Har left to have frankly
:29:56. > :29:59.always hated the Labour Party who now have a big voice within the
:30:00. > :30:04.Labour Party. That is a fact and I think it will turn the public off
:30:05. > :30:08.once they know that is going on. But I also want to say something about
:30:09. > :30:12.what John said about how this has come about. Because these members of
:30:13. > :30:17.the Shadow Cabinet who, I don't even see this as a coup. I see this as a
:30:18. > :30:20.group of people who were trying to make something work and who decided
:30:21. > :30:26.over time that this isn't working and it's not going to work. And I
:30:27. > :30:30.look at what this government is doing. I look at something like
:30:31. > :30:36.Brexit. OK, there has been a referendum. I was, as was Anna
:30:37. > :30:40.Soubry, on the losing side, but I know and I still feel this is
:30:41. > :30:43.potentially a disaster for the country, and I see no opposition. I
:30:44. > :30:54.don't see the opposition with a strategy. We have a strategy. I
:30:55. > :30:58.don't see it. And when John talks about, we have two Unite, yes, we
:30:59. > :31:02.have to unite, but we have to be clear what we are uniting around.
:31:03. > :31:05.What is interesting in the leadership debate is that there has
:31:06. > :31:11.been virtually no difference on policy. The most common expression
:31:12. > :31:15.used by Owen Smith is, I agree with Jeremy. So the issue is not around
:31:16. > :31:19.policy. We have turned those arguments around. We are an
:31:20. > :31:23.anti-austerities party, we have red lines in terms of the Brexit
:31:24. > :31:29.campaign which is unanimously agreed, and we are campaigning. We
:31:30. > :31:33.are distracted by a leadership election that should never have been
:31:34. > :31:34.brought about. APPLAUSE
:31:35. > :31:41.Joanna Cherry. The question was, is the SNP the only credible opposition
:31:42. > :31:47.because Labour is tearing itself apart? I think you have the answer
:31:48. > :31:54.to your question. We have seen Labour tearing itself apart on the
:31:55. > :31:57.panel this evening. I don't care whether John is a Marxist or a
:31:58. > :32:01.socialist, I don't care whether people are nasty to each other or
:32:02. > :32:06.not. We are grown up and can cope with acrimony. What I care about is
:32:07. > :32:08.whether or not the Labour Party is forming an effective opposition to
:32:09. > :32:12.this Conservative government and it is patenting the clear they are not.
:32:13. > :32:20.They are simply incapable of doing it. -- it is patenting the clear.
:32:21. > :32:23.Earlier this summer, when we had the result of the European referendum
:32:24. > :32:27.campaign the government were missing in action, but so were the official
:32:28. > :32:32.opposition. The only person who had any sort of plan or strategy was the
:32:33. > :32:36.SNP leader, the First Minister of Scotland, Nicola Sturgeon. You don't
:32:37. > :32:39.have too agree with us but I think you can agree that she had a plan
:32:40. > :32:44.and the strategy and she is carrying it through. Three months later we
:32:45. > :32:49.still do not know what Theresa May's plan is. She says Brexit means
:32:50. > :32:52.Brexit but has no idea what Brexit means. The official opposition
:32:53. > :32:56.should be harrying government over that, cross examining them, holding
:32:57. > :33:00.them to account for the shambles and lack of policy they have. Instead,
:33:01. > :33:04.they are fighting amongst themselves like a bunch of student politicians.
:33:05. > :33:11.Jeremy Corbyn doesn't even raised the issue of... If you would let me
:33:12. > :33:16.speak, because you had a long time to speak earlier. Jeremy Corbyn
:33:17. > :33:19.seems incapable of asking the Prime Minister about Brexit, the biggest
:33:20. > :33:23.crisis facing the country at the moment. He does not want to bring it
:33:24. > :33:28.up, I suspect, because he does not really believe in the European
:33:29. > :33:32.Union. It is left to the leader of the SNP at Westminster, Angus
:33:33. > :33:35.Robertson, to interrogate Theresa May repeatedly about what Brexit
:33:36. > :33:39.means. Does it mean we will stay in the single market, will you need a
:33:40. > :33:46.Visa to go on holiday to Spain or France? Does it mean that pas
:33:47. > :33:50.sporting for financial services will be taken away, damaging the City of
:33:51. > :33:53.London and the financial sector in the city of Edinburgh, which I
:33:54. > :33:57.represent. She is not able to answer these questions but it is not Labour
:33:58. > :34:02.are asking those questions, it is my party. I want to pick up on what
:34:03. > :34:07.John said... I want to come to Quentin Letts. As you can see, it is
:34:08. > :34:12.interesting in Parliament at the moment and to be a sketch writer is
:34:13. > :34:16.bliss. In the House of Commons, the SNP at ten a lot. They talk a heck
:34:17. > :34:21.of a lot but they are fairly parochial and they are not listened
:34:22. > :34:27.to much, I don't think. That is very harsh. The Commons is more nuanced
:34:28. > :34:31.than that. There is opposition on the Tory benches. In public life,
:34:32. > :34:35.opposition comes from different quarters. Not just in Parliament
:34:36. > :34:40.but, there I say it, from the BBC's sometimes, from the establishment
:34:41. > :34:43.blob. There is opposition to the government and look at its
:34:44. > :34:47.difficulty with the grammar schools proposal. It would be wrong to say
:34:48. > :34:51.the SNP is the only opposition. I have a bit of a soft spot for Jeremy
:34:52. > :34:55.Corbyn on a personal level. But there is this paradox in Labour.
:34:56. > :35:01.Corbyn seems to be quite honest in some way 's. He has a certain
:35:02. > :35:07.lascivious glint in his eye that I quite like. With his Steptoe
:35:08. > :35:12.haircut, I think here's an interesting, likeable figure. But at
:35:13. > :35:15.the same time, there is this Momentum lot who are unpleasant with
:35:16. > :35:20.their views on Israel and the way they have been treating some MPs. I
:35:21. > :35:23.would give a warning to John. I went this week to see a tale of two
:35:24. > :35:24.would give a warning to John. I went cities, and that shows the French
:35:25. > :35:32.Revolution, a fascinating production. But road spear, a leader
:35:33. > :35:36.of the Revolution, came unstuck and got killed by his revolutionaries.
:35:37. > :35:40.Let that be a lesson to you, my friend. If you get into that extreme
:35:41. > :35:46.revolutionary behaviour, you get the reign of terror, and that is what I
:35:47. > :35:51.think is going to happen. The reign of terror. I see it in front of me.
:35:52. > :35:59.Who shall we go to? The man in the pale blue shirt. I think it is
:36:00. > :36:04.indicative of the state the Labour Party is in when it takes a Tory MP
:36:05. > :36:08.to defend Labour MPs from abuse from within their own party, and it takes
:36:09. > :36:13.the SNP to argue against the Tory MP. It is a scandal that you have a
:36:14. > :36:18.party so divided against itself and six to represent ordinary people by
:36:19. > :36:23.doing the work it does. You have the point that Quentin Letts made,
:36:24. > :36:27.Jeremy Corbyn went to an event for Labour friends of Israel and did not
:36:28. > :36:37.mention Israel or Jews once. He stuck to his steel.
:36:38. > :36:41.The Labour Party is moving towards being an organisation of protest,
:36:42. > :36:44.not an organisation with the ability to pursue power and policies through
:36:45. > :36:48.Parliament. You only need to look at the 80%. If you cannot lead, you
:36:49. > :36:54.can't win and you can't achieve anything. The first line of our
:36:55. > :36:58.constitution is that we exist to be a force in Parliament. This is why
:36:59. > :37:03.the MPs are so important, the PLP is so important, and they are being
:37:04. > :37:11.sidelined. Does Tony Blair bear the principal blame, over Iraq and other
:37:12. > :37:16.things in his own private behaviour subsequently? Do you think that the
:37:17. > :37:21.Blair years, your years, that this is what follows because of what they
:37:22. > :37:26.were? I certainly don't put everything at the door of Jeremy
:37:27. > :37:29.Corbyn. That would be really unfair. They're right issues going back to
:37:30. > :37:34.when we were in power, Iraq being the most obvious in terms of policy,
:37:35. > :37:38.but also tuition fees which were difficult for a lot of people. We
:37:39. > :37:42.lost support, but don't forget we did win an election after Iraq. The
:37:43. > :37:49.second thing I would say is that I think what Tony Blair always tried
:37:50. > :37:54.to do was to understand that most people are not living in the
:37:55. > :37:57.political bubble that we live in. I think he always had an understanding
:37:58. > :38:04.of that and I think there is a danger at the moment that we are
:38:05. > :38:09.losing that. I think we focus far too much on that Tony- Gordon thing
:38:10. > :38:12.was very damaging. I think that led to a training of talent. We did not
:38:13. > :38:21.bring on talent in the way we should and could have done. -- it led to a
:38:22. > :38:24.training of talent. I think a lot of people feel Hacked Off with
:38:25. > :38:29.inequality and they are looking for something very, very different. My
:38:30. > :38:31.point is that they should not be looking for something that
:38:32. > :38:36.different. Take the personalities out of it, do the sort of politics
:38:37. > :38:43.that we tried to give to the country. Wait a minute, John. It is
:38:44. > :38:47.a disaster for the Labour Party. Nauseating. Because you are the
:38:48. > :38:51.person, above all else, who created a political environment where no one
:38:52. > :38:56.believe a word a politician said. APPLAUSE
:38:57. > :39:02.You lost 5 million votes in that process and set us up to fail. The
:39:03. > :39:09.reason Jeremy was elected was because they wanted some honesty
:39:10. > :39:15.back in politics again. Look, John, I have come on here tonight to be as
:39:16. > :39:19.nice to you as I possibly can. The feeling is mutual. I will tell you
:39:20. > :39:22.why, because I care about the Labour Party. I really care about the
:39:23. > :39:27.Labour Party and I worry that you and yours are destroying it. And
:39:28. > :39:31.what's more, I actually worry that you don't even care. You took us to
:39:32. > :39:38.the edge and we are trying to restore honesty and confidence in
:39:39. > :39:45.politics that you destroyed. It is just unbelievable. It is
:39:46. > :39:49.unbelievable that we win three general elections, do things like
:39:50. > :39:55.the minimum wage, and all he wants to do... Which we supported. And you
:39:56. > :39:59.took us to Iraq. I understand why newspapers like the Daily Mail wants
:40:00. > :40:03.to trash Tony Blair, because we won elections and they are a right wing
:40:04. > :40:08.paper. I understand why the Tories want to trash new Labour, because we
:40:09. > :40:12.beat them three times. But when the Labour Party is doing it, it is
:40:13. > :40:16.utterly ridiculous and it is part of, I am afraid, the revolutionary
:40:17. > :40:25.posh boy madness that has taken this party over. Rubbish. Unbelievable.
:40:26. > :40:31.You don't deserve to win. You took us to this crisis. The problem is
:40:32. > :40:35.with politicians going at each other like they are five-year-olds in
:40:36. > :40:40.school, frankly. Then we have this stigma around politics and young
:40:41. > :40:44.people my age will not go and vote because they see these politicians
:40:45. > :40:49.and are not inspired by them and do not believe in them, because they
:40:50. > :40:53.are going at each other. They have nothing to say apart from tiny
:40:54. > :41:00.little Dix, like Facebook videos of Theresa May, who can make the
:41:01. > :41:05.biggest dig at each other. I am personally inspired by Jeremy Corbyn
:41:06. > :41:12.because he is honest. Because he goes into Parliament in a suit which
:41:13. > :41:17.did not cost hundreds or thousands, and he did not claim that money. He
:41:18. > :41:22.did not claim that taxpayers money and he just tells the truth. And I
:41:23. > :41:29.think he is truly inspiring. And for you to have a dig at him... I am not
:41:30. > :41:34.having a dig at him. I actually think Jeremy, I agree with Quentin,
:41:35. > :41:38.I think he has a lot of qualities. What I find extraordinary, and what
:41:39. > :41:42.you are seeing tonight, I think Jeremy Corbyn in the Labour Party is
:41:43. > :41:45.not necessarily the problem. I desperately want the Labour Party to
:41:46. > :41:50.win a general election. The problem is that there are elements within
:41:51. > :41:54.the Labour Party who actually don't, because they want the Labour
:41:55. > :42:02.Party... That is not true. That is just not true. Can I just say
:42:03. > :42:06.something? In the first part of the programme we debated Grammar schools
:42:07. > :42:10.and I think we had a good debate. Nobody was personal, nobody was try
:42:11. > :42:14.to make a cheap political point and it was a genuine debate. So forgive
:42:15. > :42:18.me, I think you are wrong when you say politicians do not have rigorous
:42:19. > :42:22.debate. Secondly, the idea that my colleagues where thousands of pounds
:42:23. > :42:32.worth of suits, I don't know where you got that from. Doesn't Jeremy
:42:33. > :42:36.have the smallest expenses? I think you are missing the main point. You
:42:37. > :42:45.started this whole debate and you went at John. You started it.
:42:46. > :42:50.APPLAUSE. I will vote for that man because
:42:51. > :42:54.this man I blame, not Jeremy Corbyn. That is abuse I don't tolerate. What
:42:55. > :42:58.is interesting now is that we've got the largest political party in the
:42:59. > :43:01.whole of Europe and it's as a result of who, large numbers of young
:43:02. > :43:09.people coming into politics. That's good. Inspired. That was translating
:43:10. > :43:13.into electoral successes until this happened three months ago. We will
:43:14. > :43:18.come back together, we will unite because we agree on the policies,
:43:19. > :43:21.whoever is the leader will unite behind with discipline and we'll
:43:22. > :43:30.start winning elections. APPLAUSE.
:43:31. > :43:35.Alastair Campbell, one thing, why do you seem to have it in for John
:43:36. > :43:39.McDonnell but not Jeremy Corbyn? I don't. While I was sitting here,
:43:40. > :43:43.trying to do my best to be constructive about how the Labour
:43:44. > :43:48.Party might go forward... Oh, come on... He suddenly goes on about
:43:49. > :43:52.losing five million votes and how we are the problem. I don't have it in
:43:53. > :44:00.for him at all. Can I just say one thing. Ordinary member...
:44:01. > :44:04.85 out of 89 polls prior to the so-called coup, we were behind. In
:44:05. > :44:08.the other four, we were neck and neck, so he's just not telling the
:44:09. > :44:11.truth about this. I think viewers can decide for themselves who's got
:44:12. > :44:15.it in for whom as a result of watching this. But I want to go on
:44:16. > :44:20.to another question. I'll take a point from you madam in the middle?
:44:21. > :44:23.Jeremy Corbyn is a very nice chap, but honestly Mr McDonnell do you
:44:24. > :44:28.really think he can lead the party... Yes, he can he's a new type
:44:29. > :44:33.of leader, the sort of leader that we now need, someone who's
:44:34. > :44:37.completely honest as was said, no spin, no triang layings, has been
:44:38. > :44:40.able to unite the party on the policies because there is no
:44:41. > :44:44.difference on policies and I think he's the type of leader that people
:44:45. > :44:49.will respect. We have had enough of these big leaders.
:44:50. > :44:52.APPLAUSE. Go on, then? One point from you, in
:44:53. > :44:57.the grade suit? Alastair Campbell's hit the nail on the head, the point
:44:58. > :45:02.is, he designed New Labour, they got elected, all right it was a
:45:03. > :45:14.disaster, but they got elected. Excuse me! So you win three times.
:45:15. > :45:18.This is your opposition. You want us to elect a disastrous... I'm old
:45:19. > :45:21.enough to remember the dark ages of the Labour Party in the early 80s
:45:22. > :45:27.which the young people don't remember. That's where we are going.
:45:28. > :45:33.As for the SNP being a credible opposition, let us remind ourselves,
:45:34. > :45:36.they've got 56 seats with 1.4 million votes and a system that I
:45:37. > :45:41.allows that is something that needs to be changed.
:45:42. > :45:48.APPLAUSE. We need to move on.
:45:49. > :45:51.I'd like to come back on that. What do you want to come back on? The
:45:52. > :45:56.gentleman's point in the audience. Which point? The point that's just
:45:57. > :46:00.been made. What about the SNP? The SNP Government in Scotland has the
:46:01. > :46:04.highest popular mandate of any Government in Western Europe. This
:46:05. > :46:06.lot with their in-fighting, their dividedness, are never going to
:46:07. > :46:13.achieve anything like that. You are a product of the system, nothing
:46:14. > :46:19.more. Sue Allenby, please, come to the rescue! Why can't we leave the
:46:20. > :46:24.European Union now? Why can't we leave the European Union now? We
:46:25. > :46:29.voted for it, we should leave. Quentin Letts? I would just say we
:46:30. > :46:35.have all got to go and have supper afterwards so it will be very
:46:36. > :46:39.interesting, the people with the inform-fighting, the public have
:46:40. > :46:44.spoken. The people voted to come out. That was in June. We haven't
:46:45. > :46:50.even had anything from Whitehall so... 17.5 million people voted for
:46:51. > :46:54.Brexit, I think 13.5 voted for Tony Blair in 97 so that gives you the
:46:55. > :46:58.scale of the vote, it's a big mandate there and the people are
:46:59. > :47:02.impatient. I think that they're right to be impatient. I don't think
:47:03. > :47:06.it can happen immediately because you want to try to negotiate some
:47:07. > :47:11.sort of trade relationship with the EU. It might happen, it might not,
:47:12. > :47:14.we might come out of the single markets, we might stay in it under
:47:15. > :47:18.certain terms, I don't know, but it's right to give the politicians a
:47:19. > :47:23.bit of a chance to come up with a deal. But I have no doubt that the
:47:24. > :47:27.article 50 is going to be buttoned some time next year and I think we
:47:28. > :47:30.are going to be sailing out of the EU and hallelujah, I'm very glad
:47:31. > :47:36.about that. People get cross with Theresa May for not telling us every
:47:37. > :47:40.moment what is going on. I think that is a little unrealistic. I
:47:41. > :47:44.think if you are going to be a good poker or perhaps a good bridge
:47:45. > :47:52.player in Salisbury, I think APPLAUSE.
:47:53. > :47:58.Was that terribly prejudice? ! I think the message is going to get
:47:59. > :48:04.into Brussels' head despite the resistance there, that the British
:48:05. > :48:07.people are very clear on the issue of freedom of movement and I don't
:48:08. > :48:21.think that that will be accepted by our politicians. Lastly, the
:48:22. > :48:26.attitude in Brussels at the moment there's lots of rumpy-pumpy going on
:48:27. > :48:34.and that will be more realistic. Now who is being parochial? ! Sue
:48:35. > :48:39.Allenby, what is your concern about this, you say the vote happened in
:48:40. > :48:42.June? Voted in June, no information's filtered out. There
:48:43. > :48:48.are 17.5 million people wondering what is going to happen and why it
:48:49. > :48:53.can't happen sooner than later and we hear from Theresa May that it may
:48:54. > :48:57.not happen for a long time. But nobody knows why exactly. And do you
:48:58. > :49:02.think there may be some backtracking going on, deliberately? Who knows.
:49:03. > :49:14.Or do you think they are trying to work things out? What about you?
:49:15. > :49:17.Brexit is like something out of Willy Wonka's chocolate factory, it
:49:18. > :49:21.means whatever people want it to mean, it's just a word and for some
:49:22. > :49:25.it means staying in Europe having trade agreements, for some it means
:49:26. > :49:29.copping out and there are various flavours in-between. Until that's
:49:30. > :49:33.decided, we are stuck with this vagueness which will carry on and I
:49:34. > :49:38.suspect we'll never leave and I hope we don't. We should stay in.
:49:39. > :49:48.APPLAUSE. Joanna Cherry?
:49:49. > :49:53.You were applauding him, do you agree that we should never leave?
:49:54. > :49:57.The electorate I represent voted to stay in. Every local authority
:49:58. > :50:03.region in Scotland voted to remain so my duty as an SNP MP is to try to
:50:04. > :50:06.get the best possible deal for Scotland, recognising Scotland voted
:50:07. > :50:09.to remain. To answer the lady's question, the reason we can't leave
:50:10. > :50:14.the European Union now is because the leave campaign sold you a pup.
:50:15. > :50:18.It's not easy to leave the European Union. In order to start the process
:50:19. > :50:21.of leaving the European Union, we have to trigger article 50. Before
:50:22. > :50:25.we do that, we have to have some sort of a plan. The Government has
:50:26. > :50:28.no plan, the leave campaign admitted the day after they won the vote that
:50:29. > :50:33.they had no plan. Theresa May doesn't know what Brexit means. As I
:50:34. > :50:37.said earlier, she can't tell you whether it involves staying in the
:50:38. > :50:40.single market, keeping passporting for our vital financial sectors in
:50:41. > :50:45.London and whether it will mean that we'll all have to pay to go abroad
:50:46. > :50:51.on our holidays, she's not able to answer those questions. She says
:50:52. > :50:55.Brexit means Brexit doesn't she. Quentin tried to lead you up the
:50:56. > :50:59.garden path by being rude, making you think that Brexit is easy, they
:51:00. > :51:06.are telling you a pack of lies. APPLAUSE.
:51:07. > :51:12.Don't just take it from me. Look at the case of Greenland. Greenland has
:51:13. > :51:15.a population the size of Croydon. No disrespect to Greenland because the
:51:16. > :51:20.fishing industry is very important in my country as well. The only
:51:21. > :51:23.important industry in Greenland is fishing, a population the size of
:51:24. > :51:27.Croydon, it took Greenland three years to leave the European Union.
:51:28. > :51:31.It took us nine years to negotiate the current trade deal we are
:51:32. > :51:35.negotiating with Canada and it's still not been finalised. Nicola
:51:36. > :51:39.Sturgeon said in a speech yesterday that in evidence to a committee for
:51:40. > :51:43.the Scottish Parliament that this Brexit vote could lead to a decade
:51:44. > :51:46.of uncertainty. Your Government is not being honest with you. They are
:51:47. > :51:51.not able to tell you what Brexit means and they don't have a plan.
:51:52. > :51:55.These people in Brussels that Quentin so deprecates, they have all
:51:56. > :51:57.their negotiators in place, they are organised and ready to go, they want
:51:58. > :52:00.Britain at the negotiating table, Britain can't come to the
:52:01. > :52:05.negotiating table because Theresa May doesn't have a plan, the leave
:52:06. > :52:15.campaign don't have a plan and you were sold a puck by the campaign.
:52:16. > :52:18.APPLAUSE. Joanna, are you therefore concluding
:52:19. > :52:21.it's not going to happen? Very brief because you have had a long say,
:52:22. > :52:25.just yes or no? I think it's going to be difficult. I'm a democrat and
:52:26. > :52:27.respect the fact that the people of England and Wales voted to leave the
:52:28. > :52:32.European Union. Yes or no is it going to happen? I can't answer that
:52:33. > :52:36.question. Anna Soubry? Is it going to happen? The thing is, we have
:52:37. > :52:40.said, or I've said for example that obviously I accept the vote and the
:52:41. > :52:44.people have spoken and, during the whole of the campaign when people
:52:45. > :52:46.like ourselves and Alastair and Joanna, they were trying to persuade
:52:47. > :52:50.people to vote to stay in the European Union. We made it clear
:52:51. > :52:55.that if we voted to come out, that is what we'd get, that we'd leave.
:52:56. > :52:59.Joanna, I agree with what she says when she says that the trouble is,
:53:00. > :53:05.this is fiendishly appallingly complicated. It is not as simple as
:53:06. > :53:08.just walking away from it, even invoking article 50, you've got to
:53:09. > :53:12.lay the ground work. There are other problems as well. We have elections
:53:13. > :53:18.in Germany and elections in France and indeed in other countries in the
:53:19. > :53:22.EU. That also will play a huge part because obviously Merkel will be
:53:23. > :53:25.wanting to sort out matters in her own country. Frankly, the idea that
:53:26. > :53:30.we are going to be top of her wish list is just the stuff of the
:53:31. > :53:35.fairies. So it is going to take time, it's going to take effort and
:53:36. > :53:38.what I do believe we now need is, I don't believe we want the running
:53:39. > :53:45.commentary, as Theresa May's rightly said. But I do think we need a plan.
:53:46. > :53:49.Most importantly, those people that led the leave campaign who sit in
:53:50. > :53:53.some of the highest offices now of Government, people like Boris
:53:54. > :53:56.Johnson, people who persuaded the people across the United Kingdom to
:53:57. > :53:59.vote to leave the EU, they must be held to account.
:54:00. > :54:05.They must deliver. APPLAUSE.
:54:06. > :54:09.All right. What about holding to account the people who said remain
:54:10. > :54:14.on the grounds that if we voted to leave there'll be a DIY recession
:54:15. > :54:19.which there doesn't seem to be? We haven't left yet. They said the
:54:20. > :54:22.economy would collapse. They said it as soon as the vote happened. We
:54:23. > :54:26.didn't say that actually. Alastair Campbell? We haven't had an
:54:27. > :54:30.emergency budget? David you are right on that and that shouldn't
:54:31. > :54:34.have been said but please, I'm delighted when we have... But you...
:54:35. > :54:39.This is important, we haven't left but we have had good figures but we
:54:40. > :54:43.must not kid ourselves that, as we move into an increasing period of
:54:44. > :54:48.uncertainty, we are apparently going to trigger article 50 early next
:54:49. > :54:53.year, then I fear that we'll enter periods of great economic concern. A
:54:54. > :54:58.couple of minutes. Alastair Campbell and John McDonnell? It's so
:54:59. > :55:03.complicated this. What was awful about that dismal dreadful
:55:04. > :55:07.campaign... Which one was that? Vote leave on Thursday and by Friday
:55:08. > :55:12.we'll have ?50 million going to the National Health Service, it's
:55:13. > :55:16.dismal. It was a lie. You've now got to go through interlocking
:55:17. > :55:19.negotiations covering how do we leave, our Free Trade Agreement with
:55:20. > :55:24.the rest of Europe, interim cover while that's going on, how we enter
:55:25. > :55:30.the WTO, the World Trade Organisation as the UK not the EU,
:55:31. > :55:34.54 3 free trade arrangements that we have to make with individual
:55:35. > :55:37.countries where now we have them with Europe and an arrangement on
:55:38. > :55:43.foreign defence and arrangement policy. Canada's got 300 full-time
:55:44. > :55:48.trade negotiators. David Davis stood up in the House of Commons the other
:55:49. > :55:52.day and said proudly, we are going to have 180 civil servants working
:55:53. > :55:55.on this. It's pathetic, there wasn't a plan A and that's why there isn't
:55:56. > :56:02.a Plan B and they are making it up as they go along.
:56:03. > :56:06.OK. Only 30 seconds left now. John McDonnell, what about Owen Smith's
:56:07. > :56:09.idea that Labour could reapply to join the EU in the election, is that
:56:10. > :56:14.on the cards? No, we have had a referendum. As much as I regret it,
:56:15. > :56:17.we have to respect the decision and we have to very quickly now create a
:56:18. > :56:22.new relationship with Europe. We need to get on with that. The point
:56:23. > :56:26.that's been made is, we might not have had the recession hit us
:56:27. > :56:30.immediately but investment decisions are being made now which will start
:56:31. > :56:33.hitting us next year, right the way across the economy. That uncertainty
:56:34. > :56:36.is impacting the economy already and it will hit us even harder so we've
:56:37. > :56:41.got to get into the negotiations fast, make sure we secure access to
:56:42. > :56:45.the market, we protect EU citizens here and UK citizens in Europe as
:56:46. > :56:49.well. We have got to try and get the financial services passport as well
:56:50. > :56:51.and we need to protect the employment and environmental
:56:52. > :56:56.regulations. That's the red lines that Labour have set out. Actually,
:56:57. > :57:01.we are meeting on a regular basis now and the socialist and Democratic
:57:02. > :57:05.Parties across Europe to try to get the best deal we possibly can. We
:57:06. > :57:08.have to respect a decision but we've got to get new certainty that a new
:57:09. > :57:14.Europe that I think will take some of the benefits of the EI and
:57:15. > :57:19.overcome some of the perceived disbenefits of the EU that motivated
:57:20. > :57:26.people to leave. One last word from the woman there? Part of the EU is
:57:27. > :57:30.considered being European because Switzerland, they are not part of
:57:31. > :57:34.the EU, they have a thriving economy, but you would call them
:57:35. > :57:38.European, so I don't understand why MPs and members of the public are
:57:39. > :57:42.saying, oh, because we are going to leave the EU, we are no longer going
:57:43. > :57:46.to be European if we are going to cut ties. Are you happy about the
:57:47. > :57:49.way things are going yourself? I mean, being a 16-year-old when the
:57:50. > :57:54.vote happened I could haven't my voice heard. Now you have it heard?
:57:55. > :57:58.Now I am, yes, but it was quite frustrating. We wanted you to have
:57:59. > :58:03.your voice heard. We voted for you to have your vote. We must stop. But
:58:04. > :58:07.do you feel happen pay with the way things are going -- happy? I'm
:58:08. > :58:10.probably one of the few youngsters that would have voted leave. You
:58:11. > :58:18.should be on the panel! APPLAUSE.
:58:19. > :58:23.I don't know whether there's an age limit for the panel, I don't think
:58:24. > :58:28.there is. The country voted for Brexit and I'm
:58:29. > :58:32.the only Brexiteer. It's the end of the programme, I'm
:58:33. > :58:40.afraid. We are in Sutton Coldfield next week. The week after that, we
:58:41. > :58:48.are in Boston in Lincolnshire. There is the address on the screen. You
:58:49. > :58:53.can call us or go on the website. My thanks to this panel here and all of
:58:54. > :58:58.you who came to Salisbury to take part in this edition of Question
:58:59. > :59:00.Time. Until next Thursday, from all of us here, good night.