:00:00. > :00:15.Welcome to this week's Question Time which comes from Sutton Coldfield.
:00:16. > :00:18.Our panel tonight, Conservative MP and leading campaigner
:00:19. > :00:23.Labour's Liz Kendall, who ran for the leadership last year
:00:24. > :00:31.Newly re-elected leader of the Green Party, Caroline Lucas.
:00:32. > :00:33.Liberal Democrat Health spokesman Norman Lamb.
:00:34. > :00:52.And broadcaster and columnist Julia Hartley-Brewer.
:00:53. > :01:06.You can join the debate on Facebook, Twitter, or text 83981.
:01:07. > :01:13.The first question comes from Tom Leonard. When will the naysayers
:01:14. > :01:17.stop naying and be positive and forward looking towards a bright
:01:18. > :01:23.Brexit future. APPLAUSE
:01:24. > :01:32.Caroline Lucas, if you are a naysayer, when will you stop naying?
:01:33. > :01:35.I am just looking at the evidence and raising concerns about the fact
:01:36. > :01:39.that, for example, this government seems to have no idea which
:01:40. > :01:43.direction it is going. We had the referendum and we should listen to
:01:44. > :01:46.what people said. I was on the Remain side and I am sorry the
:01:47. > :01:50.majority went against us but I accept the result. People have had a
:01:51. > :01:54.clear voice to say they want to leave but we are not clear where we
:01:55. > :01:59.are going, and the government does not seem to be clear either. We had
:02:00. > :02:01.three months over the summer with three different ministers giving
:02:02. > :02:05.different versions of whether or not it would include free movement of
:02:06. > :02:09.people, whether it would include the single market, whether we could have
:02:10. > :02:14.the single market without free movement, and so on. There is a lack
:02:15. > :02:19.of clarity and this really matters. If we don't have access to the
:02:20. > :02:22.single market, if we are not in it, it has big questions about
:02:23. > :02:26.environmental and is, workers' rights. I want to stand up for the
:02:27. > :02:30.freedom of movement, an important principle that we benefit from and
:02:31. > :02:35.we make the most of when we visit other places, too. I am worried that
:02:36. > :02:41.it is not clear where this process is going and that is why I think it
:02:42. > :02:46.is right to have a vote again on the issue... A second referendum? On the
:02:47. > :02:55.issue of what the final deal looks like. This is not about rerunning...
:02:56. > :02:59.Listen, the big rallying cry of the Brexit leaders was, give us back our
:03:00. > :03:04.democracy. Why can't we have a democratic decision on which kind of
:03:05. > :03:09.Brexit option is on the table? I do not want to rerun the 23rd of June.
:03:10. > :03:13.I respect the vote, but I think if they lot of the campaign was about
:03:14. > :03:18.democracy, why can't people be trusted to have a vote on whether
:03:19. > :03:23.they want a hard Brexit, meaning no environmental protections, no
:03:24. > :03:26.freedom of movement, no mention of the single market, which would have
:03:27. > :03:27.a big impact... What aspect of the vote do you respect?
:03:28. > :03:37.APPLAUSE I respect the fact that we are going
:03:38. > :03:41.to have to leave the EU. I am deeply sad about it but I respect it. What
:03:42. > :03:45.I want to have clarity over and I think it is right for the British
:03:46. > :03:49.people to have a say over is whether it is a soft Brexit, which allows us
:03:50. > :03:53.to still be members of the single market, and allows us to have
:03:54. > :03:57.environmental protections, freedom of movement, or whether it is one
:03:58. > :04:01.that injects us into the wilderness, where we will have businesses having
:04:02. > :04:05.to pay hugely more to do business, where we do not have environmental
:04:06. > :04:08.protections, and where people who live here now, who have made their
:04:09. > :04:12.lives here in good faith from other EU countries still do not know if
:04:13. > :04:12.they have a right to stay here. That is wrong.
:04:13. > :04:22.APPLAUSE Tom Leonard, you asked the question,
:04:23. > :04:30.is she a naysayer in your view? I'm afraid you are. What do you want to
:04:31. > :04:34.see? We have been given a great opportunity to engage with the rest
:04:35. > :04:37.of the world. Lots of countries out there that suffered under Soviet
:04:38. > :04:41.oppression would have yearned for a situation like this, and it is time
:04:42. > :04:45.to unleash our potential and engage with the rest of the world and
:04:46. > :04:47.repair damaged relationships, such as the Commonwealth, where all the
:04:48. > :04:55.growth is happening at the moment APPLAUSE
:04:56. > :05:03.Are you arrest less at the pace of things developing, or are you happy?
:05:04. > :05:06.I was not expecting any haste but I think Theresa May is treading
:05:07. > :05:10.carefully and wants to be precise and clear-headed about it and see
:05:11. > :05:18.what lies ahead before rushing into anything. Liz Kendall. Like
:05:19. > :05:22.Caroline, I voted and campaign for Remain, in fact we shared a platform
:05:23. > :05:25.together. But we lost. And I don't think there should be a second
:05:26. > :05:32.referendum. I think we should respect what people have voted for.
:05:33. > :05:35.I want to see Theresa May setting out clearly what Britain is going to
:05:36. > :05:40.try and get out of these negotiations. And I don't want us to
:05:41. > :05:45.give up on membership of the single market. It is absolutely vital for
:05:46. > :05:49.manufacturing, for our financial services, but also for workers'
:05:50. > :05:54.rights and environmental standards, preventing a race to the bottom. So
:05:55. > :06:00.I want to see Theresa May making the strong case for British businesses.
:06:01. > :06:03.Of course, we must also be opening up possibilities with countries and
:06:04. > :06:07.trade negotiations across the world, but I think it would be a mistake
:06:08. > :06:11.to... You are not allowed to do that in the single market. We can have
:06:12. > :06:19.trade with other countries. You do already. I don't want to see us
:06:20. > :06:23.giving up on the single market. You give up, therefore, on controlling
:06:24. > :06:28.immigration. I don't believe that is the case. I know from my own
:06:29. > :06:32.constituency, which voted Leave and from cities across the Midlands
:06:33. > :06:37.where I campaign, that immigration was a massive concern. We have to
:06:38. > :06:41.make that part of the conversation in this country and with our
:06:42. > :06:45.European colleagues. I think some other countries, like Italy, may
:06:46. > :06:51.well agree that reforms need to be made. They are saying huge problems
:06:52. > :06:54.in those countries. So let's not give up on an ambitious negotiating
:06:55. > :06:58.strategy which allows us to stay in the single market and make some
:06:59. > :07:04.changes to freedom of movement, which is really why most people
:07:05. > :07:09.voted for Leave. In the fourth row. We are one of the largest export
:07:10. > :07:15.markets for Europe. Wider you think Europe is going to give up on us if
:07:16. > :07:19.we have given up on them? -- why do you think Europe is going to give up
:07:20. > :07:26.on us? All of Germany's cars are sold in the UK, so why would they
:07:27. > :07:35.give up on us? Two members of the audience are right. Mr Leonard put
:07:36. > :07:40.the argument better than I can. You are absolutely right, I am going to
:07:41. > :07:42.reinforce his point. It is such an exciting opportunity, and the
:07:43. > :07:46.opportunity is through leaving the customs union so we can trade freely
:07:47. > :07:49.with the rest of the world. That means we have to come out of the
:07:50. > :07:54.single market, which is the force of regulating us. The problem with the
:07:55. > :07:58.single market is that means we effectively in the European Union.
:07:59. > :08:03.Are When Remain supporters say they want to stay in the single market,
:08:04. > :08:07.that is code for saying they do not like the referendum result. If we
:08:08. > :08:11.are leaving, we have to be out of the single market. Your point on
:08:12. > :08:18.trade is spot on. We have a deficit with the European Union of up to
:08:19. > :08:21.?100 billion a year. We are the major customer for the European
:08:22. > :08:26.Union of any country in the world. Whilst we are still in the EU, the
:08:27. > :08:31.biggest customer is the US. Once we are out, it will be us. All of those
:08:32. > :08:36.German car manufacturing companies, Irish beef is almost all bought in
:08:37. > :08:39.the UK. Are the French going to stop selling us champagne because they
:08:40. > :08:46.are cross with us? It is very unlikely. They all have too agreed
:08:47. > :08:49.together. When you go to these countries itemising why people would
:08:50. > :08:52.want to have a trade relationship with us, you forget that when it
:08:53. > :08:56.comes to the EU, all of them have to agree. We have already seen the
:08:57. > :09:00.Czech Republic and Slovakia and others who are saying they will not
:09:01. > :09:04.accept anything that does not accept that we need freedom of movement for
:09:05. > :09:09.them to be here. Your idea that we can pick off these countries does
:09:10. > :09:14.not work. If they do not allow us to get free movement of people and say
:09:15. > :09:17.they will not trade for us, a million jobs in Germany that relate
:09:18. > :09:22.to selling manufacturing products to the UK, that is quite an important
:09:23. > :09:27.economic factor. If they say that, we fall back on WTO rules, which is
:09:28. > :09:32.an average 2.4% tariff. The pound has fallen by about 15%, more than
:09:33. > :09:38.wipes out the tariff. The economic opportunity is huge. As you said, we
:09:39. > :09:42.need to be looking at the world. The next 100 years will not be about a
:09:43. > :09:46.sclerotic failing European Union, but about China, India and Brazil.
:09:47. > :09:50.That is our opportunity. APPLAUSE
:09:51. > :09:57.Norman, I will come to you in a moment. We have heard from a couple
:09:58. > :10:03.of members of the audience who voted to leave. Anybody who voted to
:10:04. > :10:07.remain who feels... Yes, do you feel upset by what is going on and wish
:10:08. > :10:10.the government would get on with it? I think there needs to be some
:10:11. > :10:15.decision on what it is going to look like. You say we need to get out of
:10:16. > :10:18.the single market. There are people who voted to leave who want to stay
:10:19. > :10:23.in the single market because nobody knew that was what they were voting
:10:24. > :10:28.for. We need clarity of what this looks like, so we can then decide if
:10:29. > :10:32.it is what we want, or not. Do you think the Government knows what they
:10:33. > :10:38.are heading for? The Government does not appear to have a clue what they
:10:39. > :10:41.are heading for. Norman Lamb. Indeed, we are told the Cabinet is
:10:42. > :10:46.split on whether to stay in the single market. This is actually
:10:47. > :10:51.quite important that our economic interests. I voted and campaigned
:10:52. > :10:56.for Remain, but I accept the result. I thought you wanted another
:10:57. > :11:00.referendum. Well, we want a referendum, and I think this is as
:11:01. > :11:04.important for those who voted to leave as those who voted to stay, on
:11:05. > :11:08.the deal that is done. Because who knows what they will negotiate? We
:11:09. > :11:12.have no idea where the Government is going on this. They have not said
:11:13. > :11:16.anything. We do not know whether they will try to stay in the single
:11:17. > :11:20.market, or leave. These are fundamental issues. We have a load
:11:21. > :11:24.of people working, for example, in our health service and care
:11:25. > :11:28.services, who come to work in this country, about 80,000 in care
:11:29. > :11:32.services from other parts of the European Union. What is their
:11:33. > :11:37.future? What happens to future people who want to come and work in
:11:38. > :11:42.care services, in the NHS or any other part of our economy? In all of
:11:43. > :11:46.this, it is really important not to lose sight of the fact that whilst
:11:47. > :11:49.there are concerns about immigration, immigration is also
:11:50. > :11:55.incredibly important for our country, and we should, for a start,
:11:56. > :11:58.guarantee although is people who are already hear the right to remain. I
:11:59. > :12:00.think leaving them in the lurch is outrageous.
:12:01. > :12:08.APPLAUSE Julia Hartley-Brewer, can you
:12:09. > :12:12.address the idea of a second referendum on the terms negotiated?
:12:13. > :12:18.Does that sound democratic in the way that Caroline and Norman
:12:19. > :12:23.suggest? I have some news about the second referendum. That vote on the
:12:24. > :12:23.23rd of June, that was the second referendum.
:12:24. > :12:32.APPLAUSE We keep being told that we have no
:12:33. > :12:38.idea what is going to happen, we haven't got a clue. We didn't have a
:12:39. > :12:42.clue back in 1975, those who got a vote what was going to happen. We
:12:43. > :12:45.did not have a clue at all of the times when there were major changes
:12:46. > :12:49.in our relationship to the EU without anyone bothering to ask the
:12:50. > :12:53.British people. It is amazing how many people who love the EU did not
:12:54. > :12:55.think democracy mattered for all those decades, when they were
:12:56. > :12:57.handing over the democratic powers of our Parliament to another body
:12:58. > :13:07.oversees. APPLAUSE
:13:08. > :13:15.So you get loud applause for that, but my question was, if you believe
:13:16. > :13:19.that much in democracy, why not have a third referendum? If anyone on
:13:20. > :13:22.this panel had mentioned we would need another referendum to decide
:13:23. > :13:26.things afterwards before we actually have that, absolutely. But
:13:27. > :13:31.Parliament voted, MPs voted to have a referendum and the Government set
:13:32. > :13:35.out leaflets at our expense, 9 million quid, saying that the
:13:36. > :13:40.Government would enact our decision. Every time there is a vote to do
:13:41. > :13:44.with the EU, the EU does the same thing. If you don't vote the right
:13:45. > :13:49.way, we make you do it again. It happened in France, it happened in
:13:50. > :13:57.Ireland, it happened in Denmark. This is not going to happen here.
:13:58. > :14:01.You are scared of it, aren't you? If MPs try to stop this happening, I
:14:02. > :14:03.will be first in the queue with my pitchfork outside the houses of
:14:04. > :14:10.parliament. APPLAUSE
:14:11. > :14:15.But it should not, David, be a stitch up by members of the Cabinet.
:14:16. > :14:19.You cannot leave it to Parliament to go against the wishes of the British
:14:20. > :14:26.people. It should surely be the British people who decide on the
:14:27. > :14:31.final deal. Let me just say this. I'm not sure I trust Boris Johnson,
:14:32. > :14:36.for instance. He stood in front of that campaign bus with ?350 million
:14:37. > :14:46.to the NHS, and it is not going to come. He lied to the British people.
:14:47. > :14:55.The woman there in the front? I think anybody who says that we
:14:56. > :14:59.didn't know what we were getting into, it's not right. As a young
:15:00. > :15:05.person I was told if we voted leave my future was down the drain. I felt
:15:06. > :15:08.it was already down the drain with all the previous decisions. I
:15:09. > :15:11.thought this was a chance for Britain to say we can take
:15:12. > :15:16.responsibility for ourselves. Politicians say this went wrong
:15:17. > :15:20.because of Europe previously. APPLAUSE.
:15:21. > :15:23.Jacob, you haven't answered the point about a third referendum, we
:15:24. > :15:28.have to call it because we did have one back in the 70s. Is there not an
:15:29. > :15:31.argument democratically for looking at the package that's negotiated by
:15:32. > :15:34.the Conservative Government in allowing the audience here and
:15:35. > :15:38.everybody else in the country on saying whether it's the right
:15:39. > :15:41.package? If the package were rejected, does that mean we then
:15:42. > :15:46.remain in the European Union, and is it therefore a reversal of the
:15:47. > :15:50.referendum we've already had? If it is, it's completely pointless and it
:15:51. > :15:57.shows contempt for democracy and... I agree. Delighted. Excellent, come
:15:58. > :16:01.on? On that point, I don't think if you had a hard Brexit let's say that
:16:02. > :16:05.was on offer in a referendum and voted against it, I don't think the
:16:06. > :16:08.consequence of that should be the status quo, in other words you
:16:09. > :16:11.pretend 23rd June didn't happen. You are sending a message to two back to
:16:12. > :16:17.the Government to get something better. OK, so you have a perpetual
:16:18. > :16:20.referendum until finally the termsdeparture are agreed. I'm not
:16:21. > :16:25.frightened of the British election rat, they get things right, as they
:16:26. > :16:29.did on 23rd June and I think if you voted again you would vote the same
:16:30. > :16:33.way in larger numbers because you would think it was content to...
:16:34. > :16:36.More, more, more... What is interesting... More
:16:37. > :16:39.audience. Thank you. APPLAUSE.
:16:40. > :16:43.. More audience, please. You, madam?
:16:44. > :16:48.There are two clear things that can happen now that we have left. The
:16:49. > :16:53.one way is, we stay in the single market, the other is that we leave.
:16:54. > :16:58.Both of those involve leaving, but they are two completely different
:16:59. > :17:02.scenarios and everyone who voted Leave would have thought of both.
:17:03. > :17:08.Isn't it fair to give the British public a say in this? Absolutely.
:17:09. > :17:12.The woman in white? So, my question would be, if the British electorate
:17:13. > :17:16.are responsible enough to decide to leave the European Union Are they
:17:17. > :17:21.responsible enough to decide how we leave it?
:17:22. > :17:27.Hear, hear, well said. You in the checked shirt? Has nobody
:17:28. > :17:31.had a crystal ball when the referendum took place, nobody knows
:17:32. > :17:35.the long-term impact of Brexit and I think therefore another referendum
:17:36. > :17:40.will give the British public the same dilemma and they'll just be
:17:41. > :17:46.voting on the basis of chance rather than fact.
:17:47. > :17:51.So the three wise men will decide, happy with that? They'll have more
:17:52. > :17:56.information than the wider general public. . Don't believe that.
:17:57. > :18:01.Everybody trusts them, do they? The woman in orange? All the talk about
:18:02. > :18:04.greater clarity over what the Government's planning to do - I
:18:05. > :18:09.negotiate contracts for a living and if I had to go into negotiations
:18:10. > :18:12.with the other side knowing what my tactics and baseline positions were,
:18:13. > :18:15.it would make my job a whole lot more difficult. That seems to be
:18:16. > :18:22.what we are asking Theresa May to do.
:18:23. > :18:27.The problem is for many companies, so the Japanese Government says that
:18:28. > :18:32.Japanese companies who employ 140,000 people in the UK want to
:18:33. > :18:35.know about what tariffs they may or may not be paying, what the
:18:36. > :18:39.regulation system will be and whether it will be consistent across
:18:40. > :18:43.Europe, whether they'll still be able the get workers across Europe
:18:44. > :18:47.if they need them. That will determine long-term investment
:18:48. > :18:50.decisions for the future. So companies, manufacturing companies
:18:51. > :18:56.in our financial services need clarity. You mean the Prime Minister
:18:57. > :18:59.should say what's happening now? Or should Article 50 be there now? No,
:19:00. > :19:04.it's more important we get this right and take our time to do it.
:19:05. > :19:08.You said the Japanese are impatient? No. What they want to know is, what
:19:09. > :19:13.is the deal that might be coming forward. How can they know? Because
:19:14. > :19:16.the Government's not having those discussions with people, whether
:19:17. > :19:18.they are the financial services or the manufacturing companies, they
:19:19. > :19:22.don't know what is happening and they need to. If you run your own
:19:23. > :19:25.business, the thing you want above all is certainty for the future and
:19:26. > :19:30.they are not getting that now. I'm going to move on. Brexit will come
:19:31. > :19:32.back week on week until the negotiations are complete and then
:19:33. > :19:41.we'll have Norman Lamb back. We're in Boston, Lincolnshire
:19:42. > :19:44.next week and Neath, Come and speak your mind,
:19:45. > :20:00.I'll give the details at the end. Second question from Ted Woodley
:20:01. > :20:04.please? If Jeremy Corbyn win this is weekend, is it time the MPs who
:20:05. > :20:05.oppose him either sign up to his programme or move aside?
:20:06. > :20:23.APPLAUSE. Liz Kendall you are not a supporter
:20:24. > :20:26.exactly, what do you think? Well, I voted for Owen Smith in this
:20:27. > :20:31.leadership election and I hope that he wins. But whoever is elected on
:20:32. > :20:37.Saturday needs to unite our party and take the fight to the Tories.
:20:38. > :20:42.But I don't think that you get unity by telling people they have to
:20:43. > :20:47.support you. You get it by showing that you can lead a strong and
:20:48. > :20:51.effective team, that you can set credible policies that are right for
:20:52. > :20:55.this century, not the last, and that you can actually convince the public
:20:56. > :21:01.to support you, not just your members. We have got a mountain to
:21:02. > :21:06.climb as a Labour Party if we want to get elected in 2020. Over 100
:21:07. > :21:10.seats that we'd need to win. We can only do that if we really talk to
:21:11. > :21:14.the public and not just ourselves. It's easy to talk to people who
:21:15. > :21:18.already agree with you. It's much tougher, as I discovered during the
:21:19. > :21:21.referendum campaign, to talk to people who disagree. But we have to
:21:22. > :21:24.do that if we want to get back into Government and put our principles
:21:25. > :21:31.into practise. Does that mean you would or wouldn't sign up to Jeremy
:21:32. > :21:34.Corbyn's programme? Well, I disagree with Jeremy on many issues,
:21:35. > :21:39.particularly around defence and our membership of things like NATO. I
:21:40. > :21:43.think it's very important that Labour remains a strong party on
:21:44. > :21:47.defence. Whoever is elected, I don't think that I would put myself
:21:48. > :21:51.forward to serve in the Shadow Cabinet. We have got some great
:21:52. > :21:55.people who can take the fight to the Tories, but we also need I think to
:21:56. > :21:58.do some serious long-term thinking about the future of our party and
:21:59. > :22:02.what we've got to offer to the country. That's what I'll be
:22:03. > :22:05.focussing on in the coming years. APPLAUSE.
:22:06. > :22:11.You asked the question, what is your view? I'm not a member of the Labour
:22:12. > :22:14.Party but I do support a lot of Jeremy Corbyn's socialist policies.
:22:15. > :22:21.I find what's happened with the growth in the Labour Party
:22:22. > :22:29.extraordinary. The growth in the membership? Yes. I just can't see
:22:30. > :22:33.how it's compatible having politicians, with respect like Liz
:22:34. > :22:38.Kendall who, in my opinion represent the past, the period of the Labour
:22:39. > :22:43.Party, one of their worst periods was the Tony Blair time. We won
:22:44. > :22:47.three general elections. No, you lost over four million votes during
:22:48. > :22:52.that time. The gap between Richard poor ballooned during New Labour's
:22:53. > :22:57.time. There is a whole load of young working class people who see Jeremy
:22:58. > :22:59.Corbyn as, not perfect but offering something different and having a
:23:00. > :23:02.different view of politicians in general. That has toe be welcomed.
:23:03. > :23:08.APPLAUSE. And do you think that...
:23:09. > :23:14.APPLAUSE. Do you think like the leader of
:23:15. > :23:19.Unite Len McCluskey, he said that people in the Labour Party who tend
:23:20. > :23:23.to oppose Corbyn should be deselected and not stand for Labour?
:23:24. > :23:29.Shifted out by their constituencies? I would support the call for
:23:30. > :23:31.mandatory reselection. I wouldn't necessarily say that you should
:23:32. > :23:34.target people you don't like, I think you should have a democratic
:23:35. > :23:37.discussion in a democratic organisation, such as the Labour
:23:38. > :23:41.Party, and I don't think being an MP should be a job for life.
:23:42. > :23:48.APPLAUSE. Neither do I, Sir, but, you know, we
:23:49. > :23:53.already have a process for reselection of MPs. Nobody has a
:23:54. > :23:57.right to be a Labour candidate or Labour MP, a divine right. All
:23:58. > :24:01.Labour MPs have been selected by a relatively small number of members
:24:02. > :24:06.and then a much wider number of members of the public. That is a
:24:07. > :24:10.serious responsibility on Labour members and to actually tell the
:24:11. > :24:14.public that they don't have The Right to Choose someone who they
:24:15. > :24:19.already think is the best person to represent their area, I think would
:24:20. > :24:22.be a really serious issue, especially if it's for internal
:24:23. > :24:25.factional issues. If they want to have their say, they can join the
:24:26. > :24:28.Labour Party and take part, if they don't want to have their say, they
:24:29. > :24:38.don't have to take part, it's a free country.
:24:39. > :24:41.Julie Hartley-Brewer? The thing about democracy, you have Her
:24:42. > :24:46.Majesty's opposition and the reality is the Labour needs to make a
:24:47. > :24:50.decision whether it wants to be a serious alternative Government in
:24:51. > :24:56.waiting or a Friday night Marxist Book Club, it can't be both.
:24:57. > :25:01.APPLAUSE. The reality is that you ask Labour
:25:02. > :25:03.Party members to vote for socialism, imagine everyone's surprise, they
:25:04. > :25:06.vote for socialism, but the British people aren't going to vote for a
:25:07. > :25:10.socialist Government. It's never going to happen. It's absolute
:25:11. > :25:15.pie-in-the-sky politics to think it will happen. The reality is, Jeremy
:25:16. > :25:18.Corbyn couldn't lead the Labour Party to victory in an egg and spoon
:25:19. > :25:23.race right now. APPLAUSE.
:25:24. > :25:28.Very good hard-working sensible MPs like Liz Kendall who talk about the
:25:29. > :25:32.real issues affecting real people with proper substantive ideas for
:25:33. > :25:38.how to actually solve some of the problems that are affecting the
:25:39. > :25:42.working class voters dream of course a socialist utopian future or you
:25:43. > :25:47.are falling by the wayside, that's a horrible mistake. I don't know what
:25:48. > :25:49.the Labour Party should do, they are facing deselection for speaking the
:25:50. > :25:55.truth or they are going to face losing their seats in 2020. What I
:25:56. > :25:57.can suggest is, go and get another job, there are vacancies on Bake
:25:58. > :26:03.Off! APPLAUSE.
:26:04. > :26:06.Liz, if Jeremy Corbyn wins the election again, you want the party
:26:07. > :26:10.to unite, then you are saying you won't serve under him in the Shadow
:26:11. > :26:15.Cabinet in the next breath, which is it? You can serve the Labour Party
:26:16. > :26:19.in many ways. I think we doe, as a party, need to do some serious
:26:20. > :26:22.thinking Whant we offer for the future, how we make the economy work
:26:23. > :26:26.and Public Services fit for the future and what Britain's role is in
:26:27. > :26:34.the world, especially post-Brexit. You can serve in different ways and
:26:35. > :26:38.I would say that for many years on the Brexit, overminute held his firm
:26:39. > :26:42.principles and never gave up on them. That is why everybody likes
:26:43. > :26:49.him and is getting behind him, exactly for that reason. So do I, I
:26:50. > :26:52.do not just change my opinion on what I believe in just because
:26:53. > :26:56.things are tough and I'm sure overmist wouldn't ask me to do
:26:57. > :27:01.anything any different. Norman Lamb? In direct answer to your question, I
:27:02. > :27:05.think it's incredibly difficult for those MPs because there are
:27:06. > :27:10.irreconcilable differences within the Labour Party and what do they do
:27:11. > :27:16.in terms of their conscience? Do they support a leader who they don't
:27:17. > :27:21.believe in? Or do they continue to campaign for something else? I used
:27:22. > :27:25.to be a lawyer, irreconcilable differences seem to me to be grounds
:27:26. > :27:29.for divorce and I suspect that ultimately that's what will happen
:27:30. > :27:32.here. But I think the really worrying thing for democracy is that
:27:33. > :27:37.there is nothing holding the Government to account. That's really
:27:38. > :27:41.important, whether you are a Conservative, a Labour supporter, a
:27:42. > :27:45.Liberal Democrat, you need to have accountable Government. If you have
:27:46. > :27:50.no real challenge, you get arrogance and complacency. If the Tories just
:27:51. > :27:54.assume that they'll win in 2020, it's disastrous in terms of good
:27:55. > :28:01.Government. So there is a crying need I think for something new to
:28:02. > :28:05.emerge. I wonder what it will be. Hold on a second, Tim Farron claims
:28:06. > :28:14.he gets these texts from Labour MPs who're thinking of coming over, but
:28:15. > :28:18.we haven't seen any come over. Is it Liberal fantasy this? I don't know,
:28:19. > :28:23.I haven't seen the texts, but I do think there are lots of discussions
:28:24. > :28:26.that go on in Parliament. People talk to each other. There is no
:28:27. > :28:31.sense that people are going to be splitting in the Labour Party, let
:28:32. > :28:35.me make that clear. What my message is to many Labour members worried
:28:36. > :28:43.about what is happening is, don't split and we won't quit. David,
:28:44. > :28:46.surely those who want an alternative to the Tories, surely we have to
:28:47. > :28:51.focus on how we build a progressive force that in 2020 stands a chance
:28:52. > :28:57.of winning an election against the Tories. It's a despair to assume the
:28:58. > :29:03.Tories will be in power for the foreseeable future. You, Sir? If
:29:04. > :29:05.Jeremy does win, you are going to have a miserable time over the next
:29:06. > :29:08.few years in the party. Stop smiling!
:29:09. > :29:14.LAUGHTER. So why not have a break-away party?
:29:15. > :29:20.Why would I leave my own party? You can't put your message across. A
:29:21. > :29:24.left-wing Labour Socialist Party is not what we want. I'll always fight
:29:25. > :29:28.for the Labour Party. You don't go into politics for an easy life. If
:29:29. > :29:36.you have principles, you stick to them. We need to surely build
:29:37. > :29:40.something up. Progressive parties who work together. You could work
:29:41. > :29:44.with the Greens, the SNP. I don't want and believe there would be an
:29:45. > :29:49.electoral pact with other parties. I've always thought if on particular
:29:50. > :29:53.issues you agree, so Caroline and I campaigned together on Remain and
:29:54. > :29:57.I've worked with Norman on getting a decent funding deal for the NHS and
:29:58. > :30:00.if you agree on particular issues, try and work together, the public is
:30:01. > :30:05.sick of people shouting at each other. Caroline Lucas, your go?
:30:06. > :30:11.Thank you. To two back to the question, I think if he wins it's
:30:12. > :30:14.absolutely crucial for the party to unite behind him for the reasons
:30:15. > :30:20.Norman said. We have seen the Government getting away with huge
:30:21. > :30:22.amounts in terms of rolling back the state, privatising the NHS, going
:30:23. > :30:26.away with the Brexit, ignoring climate change, they are making the
:30:27. > :30:32.lives of my constituents in Brighton very, very miserable. So you are
:30:33. > :30:33.saying that... Liz has to sign up to Jeremy Corbyn's programme. That is
:30:34. > :30:45.the question? I think Labour and Liz Doohan to
:30:46. > :30:47.sign up for that. There is not much difference between what Owen Smith
:30:48. > :30:54.is saying on a vast number of policies and what Jeremy Corbyn is
:30:55. > :31:02.saying. I think, as well as uniting, Labour needs to be bolder. The
:31:03. > :31:07.chances of Labour winning the next election with an outright majority
:31:08. > :31:11.are vanishingly small. Therefore, we do need to look at ways of seeing
:31:12. > :31:15.how we can do better for our constituents by working more closely
:31:16. > :31:19.together. I want to lay a challenge to Jeremy Corbyn to say that what he
:31:20. > :31:24.should be doing, if he wants to do politics differently, as he says, is
:31:25. > :31:27.to embrace electoral form. Let everybody's vote count all year
:31:28. > :31:34.round and then we might get the kind of politics we need. In the second
:31:35. > :31:37.row up there on the right. Any leader whose method of uniting the
:31:38. > :31:42.party is to say that unless you agree with me, you have to leave, is
:31:43. > :31:52.not fit to be a leader and certainly not fit to be the Prime Minister.
:31:53. > :31:57.Jacob. Thank you. I agree with Norman Lamb's point, which I think
:31:58. > :32:01.is spot-on, that good government needs strong opposition. I like it
:32:02. > :32:05.from a narrow party political point that there is a hopeless opposition.
:32:06. > :32:10.But I value the constitution even more than I value narrow party
:32:11. > :32:15.political points. And I have a sneaking admiration for Jeremy
:32:16. > :32:19.Corbyn. I think he is an amazingly honest and straightforward
:32:20. > :32:26.politician who says what he thinks. But... But what he thinks is both
:32:27. > :32:31.dangerous and unelectable. APPLAUSE
:32:32. > :32:38.It would be dangerous for our national security, it would ruin our
:32:39. > :32:42.economy. It is a really dangerous programme for the nation. And
:32:43. > :32:45.sensible people like Liz Kendall cannot, in good conscience, go on
:32:46. > :32:50.the front bench with that sort of programme. If Labour is to win
:32:51. > :32:54.elections, it needs to win seats like mind, which was a Labour seat
:32:55. > :32:58.until 2010 with a marginal boundary changes. I happen to think if Liz
:32:59. > :33:02.Kendall were leader of the Labour Party, I would face stiff
:33:03. > :33:07.competition at the next election. If Jeremy Corbyn is leader, my majority
:33:08. > :33:14.will go up, and that is a bad position for British politics to be
:33:15. > :33:17.in. We don't want that. We need serious opposition. It is really
:33:18. > :33:21.good for government. It makes government think about things more
:33:22. > :33:26.carefully. It is the proper process. But Jeremy Corbyn cannot be that. He
:33:27. > :33:31.is destroying the Labour Party, in my view, and that is a short-term
:33:32. > :33:39.political advantage for us. The man spectacles. A lot of working-class
:33:40. > :33:44.people are on zero-hours contracts. Jeremy Corbyn's ten pledges include
:33:45. > :33:48.an end to those. Many working-class people are in poor quality, high
:33:49. > :33:55.rent, privately owned housing. Jeremy Corbyn has said half a
:33:56. > :33:58.million council houses. What of Jeremy Corbyn's ten pledges can Liz
:33:59. > :34:06.Kendall possibly object to? APPLAUSE
:34:07. > :34:12.At the last general election in 2015 we pledged to end the zero-hours
:34:13. > :34:17.contracts, building more homes, tackling poor quality rented
:34:18. > :34:22.accommodation. You ask what I disagree with. I said earlier on, in
:34:23. > :34:28.answering the question at the beginning, that I believe in
:34:29. > :34:31.multilateral disarmament. I think you can't just hope that other
:34:32. > :34:41.countries give up their nuclear weapons. Putting peace at the heart
:34:42. > :34:45.of foreign policy is not withdrawing from Nato, not unilateral
:34:46. > :34:50.disarmament. I think he does believe... You think, you do not
:34:51. > :34:56.know. I was on many hustings with him where that is what he said. The
:34:57. > :35:04.submarines without missiles. Is that... He actually made that a free
:35:05. > :35:08.vote. We have to keep moving because we have so much to talk about. Do
:35:09. > :35:14.you mind? If you can do a brief answer. Although Jacob says he is a
:35:15. > :35:19.nice man and consistent, the atmosphere in the Labour Party, with
:35:20. > :35:28.the abuse of particularly female members, I find absolutely horrific.
:35:29. > :35:34.Christopher Webb, to round this off. Your question. Is Theresa May under
:35:35. > :35:37.any pressure to call a general election in the spring? Jeremy
:35:38. > :35:42.Corbyn says he is putting the Labour Party, if he wins, on a footing
:35:43. > :35:48.phrase bring general election. Is May under any pressure to call one?
:35:49. > :35:52.Jacob Rees-Mogg. I don't think so. I think we would win by such a large
:35:53. > :35:57.majority if we were to have won that there is not huge pressure coming
:35:58. > :35:59.from outside. No Leader of the Opposition ever says he doesn't want
:36:00. > :36:03.a general election because it looks as if you are frightened if you
:36:04. > :36:11.won't win. However much it would be a disaster if you have one. I don't
:36:12. > :36:16.think she is under pressure. What about pressure from inside? Go for
:36:17. > :36:20.it! I think we would look deeply opportunistic if we went for one in
:36:21. > :36:23.the spring. I do perish the thought because I think the electorate is
:36:24. > :36:28.pretty high-minded. If they thought we were taking an unfair advantage
:36:29. > :36:31.by bringing forward an election over our Labour opponents, that would
:36:32. > :36:36.harm our chances and we would do less well. If the left push for it
:36:37. > :36:40.and demand and agitate, we would win comfortably so I would not be wholly
:36:41. > :36:51.opposed to us giving in to that pressure if it came, but I don't
:36:52. > :36:55.think it will. In the middle. We can't keep having elections and
:36:56. > :37:03.leadership changes and members of the opposition cabinet resigning. We
:37:04. > :37:06.need a time of stability where there are no changes, where everybody can
:37:07. > :37:12.just get on with their jobs. APPLAUSE
:37:13. > :37:20.I don't ever remember such a nasty and divisive time in politics. I
:37:21. > :37:26.don't mean what is happening within my party. I mean some of the anger
:37:27. > :37:29.and division over the EU referendum. And real leadership is actually
:37:30. > :37:32.about trying to find the things that people have in common, what unites
:37:33. > :37:38.us, rather than what divides us. That is the leadership we need, not
:37:39. > :37:41.just in my party but in the country, because things feel fractured and
:37:42. > :37:46.divisive between those who voted Remain and Lees, pro-and
:37:47. > :37:52.anti-immigration, young and old. Would an election clear the air? I
:37:53. > :37:57.think you have to have a reason for a general election, rather than
:37:58. > :38:01.trying to wipe the opposition out. To be honest, I think the Tories are
:38:02. > :38:05.all over the shop on Brexit. They are trying to take us back to the
:38:06. > :38:10.1950s with proposals on grammar schools. They have cut inheritance
:38:11. > :38:14.and capital gains tax. That is my view and I don't think they have the
:38:15. > :38:19.leadership the country needs in future and I will always be prepared
:38:20. > :38:23.to make that case. I don't think that Theresa May has a mandate for a
:38:24. > :38:26.particular version of Brexit, as I have said, so a general election
:38:27. > :38:31.could clear the air on that. It is wrong that we have a government
:38:32. > :38:35.elected on 24% of the eligible vote. The idea that that is democratic is
:38:36. > :38:42.wrong. I would like a general election but please can we have it
:38:43. > :38:49.under proportional representation? Just wave a wand. Julia
:38:50. > :38:53.Hartley-Brewer. I don't think there is any pressure, certainly not from
:38:54. > :38:57.the Labour Party and none from the Tories, who are sensible. We have a
:38:58. > :39:00.fixed term Parliament act for a reason, to stop giving Prime
:39:01. > :39:05.Minister that control and power over when they call elections. This idea
:39:06. > :39:09.about her needing a mandate, we don't elect prime ministers, we
:39:10. > :39:13.don't have a presidential system, we elect a Parliament and the leader of
:39:14. > :39:19.the largest party gets to form a government. Let's stop pretending
:39:20. > :39:23.that is not our system. I suspect she is under quite a lot of pressure
:39:24. > :39:27.from some Tory strategists to have an election. The temptation to go
:39:28. > :39:32.soon, to destroy the Labour Party, must be quite considerable. And
:39:33. > :39:35.there is a case for it, because of the need for a mandate for the
:39:36. > :39:40.negotiations, but we have ready discussed that so we will not go
:39:41. > :39:44.back on that again. But overall, I think it is unlikely we will have
:39:45. > :39:51.one. If we do have one, it should, as Caroline says, be on a fair
:39:52. > :39:55.voting system. Because at the moment, the last... We had a
:39:56. > :40:03.referendum on the EU and you voted against it. Over 25% of people voted
:40:04. > :40:13.Green Party or the Lib Dems and there are ten MPs, 425%. That is
:40:14. > :40:18.unacceptable. Chloe Jones, please. Should we pay more in taxes for the
:40:19. > :40:22.sake of the NHS? The NHS has recorded a record deficit of ?2.5
:40:23. > :40:27.billion, nearly. Julia Hartley-Brewer. Should we put up
:40:28. > :40:32.taxes for the NHS? I don't think it is a question of whether we should.
:40:33. > :40:37.I think we are going to have two. The question is should we. We can
:40:38. > :40:42.either agree that we stop providing all of the care from cradle to
:40:43. > :40:46.grave, and we stop funding IVF, that has been in the news today about
:40:47. > :40:51.couples unable to get the IVF that they are entitled to, we stop
:40:52. > :40:54.funding new cancer drugs. More treatments, more drugs coming onto
:40:55. > :40:58.the market every day that cost vast amounts more. We either decide to
:40:59. > :41:02.spend less on that, or we decide we are going to stop treating people
:41:03. > :41:06.who bring on their own problems, people who are obese, people who
:41:07. > :41:09.smoke. We can make those different choices, or we can city say we pay
:41:10. > :41:14.more tax to pay for what is needed. I think we need a debate about this.
:41:15. > :41:17.I would like to think we can take this debate out of politics and make
:41:18. > :41:24.it a sensible debate about the real choices. Here is the debate and you
:41:25. > :41:28.have a chance to say where you stand. I don't think we have a
:41:29. > :41:32.choice unless we stop getting older and fatter. You are not saying what
:41:33. > :41:40.you think. Norman Lamb said a penny on income tax would raise ?45
:41:41. > :41:43.billion a year. RUSI of that? No, I think it should come out of general
:41:44. > :41:50.taxation, but yes, we should spend more. We spend a smaller percentage
:41:51. > :41:56.of GDP than France and Germany, which is why we have the waiting
:41:57. > :41:59.lists, etc. Whether we need to raise taxes to increase the amount of
:42:00. > :42:04.money Government and has to spend is a different issue. We could use the
:42:05. > :42:11.magic money tree, but I am not sure it exists! Norman Lamb. The NHS, and
:42:12. > :42:14.the care system, care for elderly and disabled people, is on its
:42:15. > :42:18.knees. We see more and more operations being cancelled. There
:42:19. > :42:20.was news today that there are tens of thousands more operations
:42:21. > :42:27.cancelled than the official figures suggest. Endless people delayed
:42:28. > :42:32.discharge in hospital. I have a nine-year-old who may have autism,
:42:33. > :42:36.and his parents were told he would have to wait three years for a
:42:37. > :42:41.diagnosis, at the age of nine. This is a disgrace. And we are spending a
:42:42. > :42:45.significantly lower proportion of our national income on health than
:42:46. > :42:51.most other European countries. Where would you divert from to pay for
:42:52. > :42:55.health? We need to think about extra taxation and I would be prepared to
:42:56. > :43:00.pay it. The question is, how important is it that we get care for
:43:01. > :43:04.our elderly mum or dad in their hour of need? How important is it that a
:43:05. > :43:09.teenage girl with an eating disorder gets treatment when she needs it?
:43:10. > :43:15.Families all over this country are being let down by the NHS. We were
:43:16. > :43:18.let down in terms of mental health in my family. So I am prepared to
:43:19. > :43:23.pay extra if necessary to ensure we have a decent, efficient and
:43:24. > :43:28.effective NHS and care system. APPLAUSE
:43:29. > :43:38.Third row from the back. Firstly, shouldn't we use the money that the
:43:39. > :43:41.Conservatives want to make a seven-day service by using that
:43:42. > :43:48.money to perfect the five-day service as it stands? Norman Lamb
:43:49. > :43:55.referred to some problems of being discharged, etc. Abandon the
:43:56. > :44:00.seven-day favour of going back to the five-day? We need to make sure a
:44:01. > :44:05.patient is safe whenever they fall ill. We can't have a situation where
:44:06. > :44:13.if you fall ill on a Saturday or Sunday, or later at night, you are
:44:14. > :44:17.at more risk. There are real risks sometimes, particularly with
:44:18. > :44:23.out-of-hours services which in rural areas are often threadbare. But all
:44:24. > :44:27.of this stuff about the strike being because we needed the seven-day NHS,
:44:28. > :44:29.let's make sure people know that the junior doctors are already working
:44:30. > :44:34.seven days a week. APPLAUSE
:44:35. > :44:40.Jacob Rees-Mogg, you were part of the campaign that said there would
:44:41. > :44:47.be ?350 million a week more to spend. That is what I read on the
:44:48. > :44:52.bus. That is what the bus said. It was an opportunity, it did not say
:44:53. > :44:57.they would. We will let Jacob answer. Should we pay more tax?
:44:58. > :45:01.Clearly, the impression was given that Brexit would mean more for the
:45:02. > :45:06.NHS. We should not pay more tax because we are already taxed to the
:45:07. > :45:11.historic limit of taxation in the economy. If you look at figures
:45:12. > :45:17.going back to the 1970s, the tax take to GDP varies between 34% and
:45:18. > :45:23.38%. If you look at the Treasury Redbook, we're heading towards 38%.
:45:24. > :45:26.It is a question of allocating the expenditure where you think the
:45:27. > :45:31.priority is, which is why the Government has decided, as requested
:45:32. > :45:36.by the head of the NHS, to allocate an extra ?10 billion to the NHS,
:45:37. > :45:40.which as it happens coincides with the net saving from leaving the
:45:41. > :45:44.European Union, but that is a side issue, and has brought forward 6
:45:45. > :45:49.billion of that into this financial year. That is very important. The
:45:50. > :45:53.NHS does need more money and the Government is providing it, but
:45:54. > :45:56.there is not actually room for increasing the total tax burden on
:45:57. > :46:00.the United Kingdom. So it is a question of how you spend the money
:46:01. > :46:06.we are already taking in taxes, and then your priorities. And yes, once
:46:07. > :46:08.we have left the European Union and are no longer making contributions,
:46:09. > :46:13.that is money that could be allocated to the NHS. Do I think
:46:14. > :46:17.that is a good idea? Yes, I do. APPLAUSE
:46:18. > :46:23.Liz Kendall, do you accept 38% of GDP in tax is the maximum and
:46:24. > :46:30.therefore there is no room for increasing it? No, I absolutely
:46:31. > :46:33.believe we need to put more into the NHS and social care, crucially, and
:46:34. > :46:36.that the fairest and most efficient way to do that would be through more
:46:37. > :46:43.taxes. I think there are other options too. But look, the truth is,
:46:44. > :46:49.we are living for longer, we will need care and support. Yet we have a
:46:50. > :46:53.million people who get no help with the basics of daily living getting
:46:54. > :46:57.up, washed fed and going to the toilet. One in three family carers
:46:58. > :47:04.have to give up work or reduce their hours to look after their loved
:47:05. > :47:08.ones. That makes no economic sense. Everybody knows the problem, what
:47:09. > :47:12.would you do to solve it? This week I joined with Norman and Dan
:47:13. > :47:16.Poulter, a former Conservative minister, to say we need immediate
:47:17. > :47:20.action in the Autumn Statement and then we need a proper independent
:47:21. > :47:22.cross party commission on the long-term funding for health and
:47:23. > :47:27.social care. Where would you take the money from, Liz? I think that we
:47:28. > :47:32.should pay more in our taxes, I think we also need to look at very
:47:33. > :47:37.difficult questions about whether the wealthiest older people who have
:47:38. > :47:46.the means may be able to contribute more. I think that Winter Fuel
:47:47. > :47:55.Payments should be restricted, for example, to the poorer. You can't
:47:56. > :47:58.ask working age people to pay all of the costs that we are going to need
:47:59. > :48:04.to put into the health and social care system. What normally happens
:48:05. > :48:06.is, when any politician raises these questions, they're screaming
:48:07. > :48:10.headlines and all hell breaks loose. That's why I think we need this
:48:11. > :48:14.cross party commission to set up something sustainable for the
:48:15. > :48:18.future. Caroline, I'll come to you in a moment. One or two members of
:48:19. > :48:27.the audience. You there on the right? I think it's an easy answer.
:48:28. > :48:32.I think you stop fining hospitals for under-performing on targets that
:48:33. > :48:37.are impossible, stop telling them they are subject to rigorous cost
:48:38. > :48:42.improvements because you have got to save money and stop saying to
:48:43. > :48:47.clinical groups you have got to find resources elsewhere. I worked with
:48:48. > :48:51.the NHS in 23 years, I left in February and I'm devastated by the
:48:52. > :48:56.mess it's in. What exactly are you saying you would do? Abandon
:48:57. > :48:59.targets? No, I don't think you abandon targets, you abandon any
:49:00. > :49:03.fine that comes by failing that target.
:49:04. > :49:07.Caroline Lucas? I want to simply say that we are the sixth richest
:49:08. > :49:11.country in the world and we ought to be able to fund our Health Service
:49:12. > :49:15.and social care service so that our older people in particular are not
:49:16. > :49:19.left facing a question of whether or not they can afford a cancer
:49:20. > :49:22.treatment or a young person affording IVF treatment. We should
:49:23. > :49:25.be able to have a proper, sustainable health system. That
:49:26. > :49:28.means putting more money into it because the figures from the King's
:49:29. > :49:32.Fund are shocking, saying in the last Parliament the annual real
:49:33. > :49:36.increase was the smallest in real terms since the Second World War in
:49:37. > :49:40.terms of money going into the NHS. Would you put up taxation? I would
:49:41. > :49:47.be happy to put that up to pay for that. But do you agree with Jacob
:49:48. > :49:55.that there's no more money to put taxes up? I would be very worried if
:49:56. > :49:58.I agreed with Jacob. In the news today the 43p cancer drug is not
:49:59. > :50:04.available, because it's not clear which part of the NHS will fund it.
:50:05. > :50:08.That's down to Lansley's hated health and social care Act which has
:50:09. > :50:12.marketised the NHS so much more, it's fragmented it so much more,
:50:13. > :50:15.nobody knows about which bit is going to be paying for which
:50:16. > :50:18.treatment. It's a complete chaotic mess so please can this Commission,
:50:19. > :50:23.as well as looking at the funding for the NHS, please roll back that
:50:24. > :50:26.privatisation, that marketisation under Andrew Lansley. It's not
:50:27. > :50:29.worked and it's not serving people of this country.
:50:30. > :50:38.APPLAUSE. You, Sir? Green shirt. I think for
:50:39. > :50:40.me, the answer's quite clear. I mean there's large corporations which
:50:41. > :50:44.avoid massive amounts of money and all that money could go straight to
:50:45. > :50:49.the NHS. I don't understand why is Government is not doing anything to
:50:50. > :50:55.do with the large corporations. There is billions of pounds. You,
:50:56. > :50:59.there? I have an NHS funded IVF baby and I for one would pay more tax to
:51:00. > :51:04.make sure that everybody else has that opportunity.
:51:05. > :51:11.APPLAUSE. You in the white? Can I just say, I
:51:12. > :51:20.think there is a simple answer, believe it or not, to this. The NHS
:51:21. > :51:23.chief executives earn huge fantastical salaries and quite
:51:24. > :51:27.honestly, some of them can't cut the mustard. Absolutely.
:51:28. > :51:33.APPLAUSE. Hang on, and if they reduced some of
:51:34. > :51:39.those ridiculous salaries that we'll never even dream of, that money can
:51:40. > :51:41.well go towards mental health - that is really what's needed here.
:51:42. > :51:47.CHEERING AND APPLAUSE. Yeah!
:51:48. > :51:56.And you, I said I would come to you? The woman in yellow, your turn?
:51:57. > :52:01.Briefly? I've got at the moment a husband on dialysis three times a
:52:02. > :52:05.week and my feeling towards the NHS at the moment is that two thirds of
:52:06. > :52:11.the money goes towards salaries, pensions, bonuses and perks and the
:52:12. > :52:18.rest is on the patients because dialysis patients are having their
:52:19. > :52:21.time reduced that they need to live because nurses have to go home. It's
:52:22. > :52:25.happened to my husband and it's happened to a heck of a lot on the
:52:26. > :52:32.unit. They reduce the time so that the nurse can go home. So who is the
:52:33. > :52:34.NHS working for? The patient or the staff?
:52:35. > :52:38.I'm sorry, but that is what is happening.
:52:39. > :52:43.Just picking up on the lady's point. We've got to ends the rewards for
:52:44. > :52:46.failure. The Chief Executive of southern health has a remuneration
:52:47. > :52:51.package close to a quarter of a million, he's been put into a job.
:52:52. > :52:55.Sidelined into another job. Three weeks ago and she wasn't even
:52:56. > :52:58.interviewed for it. At the same time, mental health patients lose
:52:59. > :53:02.out. They are suffering discrimination within our NHS. They
:53:03. > :53:10.do not have the same right to get treatment on time. Patient first. We
:53:11. > :53:15.need to end that. Jacob, you say they are giving enough money to the
:53:16. > :53:18.NHS but we are planning to spend a reducing amount of our national
:53:19. > :53:22.income on health at a time when demand is rising rapidly. That makes
:53:23. > :53:26.no sense whenever you are on the political spectrum. Let Jacob answer
:53:27. > :53:29.that, then one more question before we end. Briefly? The only way to
:53:30. > :53:34.provide more money for the Mays is to grow the economy. If you just put
:53:35. > :53:43.taxes up you risk shrinking the economy. It is an absolute wrong
:53:44. > :53:47.thing to do. This 38% limit was not reached when Harold Wilson was Prime
:53:48. > :53:51.Minister at 98%. Focus on prevention... Increasing taxation is
:53:52. > :53:55.absolutely not the answer. All right. We've got You are talking
:53:56. > :54:01.about the bureaucracy. At the moment we are spending... Well, we have
:54:02. > :54:06.halved... Let's have some order here. Liz, stop, please, if you
:54:07. > :54:13.would just for a moment. You have your say? Cut the bureaucracy and
:54:14. > :54:17.all the layers of bureaucracy that contracts have to go through. If you
:54:18. > :54:21.get rid of all of that, all the hoops people have to jump through,
:54:22. > :54:26.then maybe that would free up a lot of money. We've got a couple of
:54:27. > :54:30.minutes left. A very distinguished panel here. An election coming up in
:54:31. > :54:36.the United States, debates on Monday, we have a question from
:54:37. > :54:40.Thomas Swindon burn, two minutes to answer you but let's hear your
:54:41. > :54:44.question. What impact would a President Trump have on the UK? Very
:54:45. > :54:49.brief answers. You can't give a short answer really and make sense
:54:50. > :54:59.but Jacob, you were said to be a supporter of Trump. You were saying
:55:00. > :55:05.that you would vote Republican. It's not wise for politicians to be rude
:55:06. > :55:10.about potential foreign leaders. I think... I think he could be
:55:11. > :55:15.President... It would be a total disaster.
:55:16. > :55:18.CHEERING AND APPLAUSE. And it is overwhelmingly in the
:55:19. > :55:23.British national interest to get on with the President of the United
:55:24. > :55:27.States, whoever that is, in a dangerous world. Our most important
:55:28. > :55:30.allie is the United States. We are not picking that President, it's
:55:31. > :55:33.being picked by Americans, according to their own democratic processes. I
:55:34. > :55:37.have confidence in the American people to choose their own
:55:38. > :55:40.President. It's not for me to second guess them. But it is for the
:55:41. > :55:43.British and in the British interest to get on with whoever is the
:55:44. > :55:49.President of the United States. APPLAUSE.
:55:50. > :55:52.Julia Hartley-Brewer. Very quickly? I have to say, we have had lots of
:55:53. > :55:57.health concerns about Hillary Clinton. I would sooner vote for her
:55:58. > :56:01.in a coma than Donald Trump wide-awake.
:56:02. > :56:06.APPLAUSE. I think we have to start a new
:56:07. > :56:10.civilisation somewhere else. Caroline Lucas? It's a devastating
:56:11. > :56:13.prospect and this idea that we need the get on with the President of the
:56:14. > :56:16.US whoever they are, we seen what happened when we did that with
:56:17. > :56:21.George Bush and the outcome wasn't very good so...
:56:22. > :56:26.APPLAUSE. Liz Kendall? He said he doesn't want
:56:27. > :56:30.to allow Muslims in the country, he said he's going to build a wall
:56:31. > :56:34.against the Mexicans, he wants to turn his back on the world. It would
:56:35. > :56:38.be a disaster for the world For us? And for us, yes, because we stand up
:56:39. > :56:42.for the values of facialness and we do not have the kind of casual
:56:43. > :56:48.racism we seed from Donald Trump. Norman Lamb? It's so bad that even
:56:49. > :56:55.George W Bush is voting for Hillary Clinton, for foodness sake. You Mr
:56:56. > :56:59.Swingburn? We have always had a special relationship with America
:57:00. > :57:03.and also the EU and it's time we had a special relationship with the
:57:04. > :57:12.world. Hear, hear. On that happy note, we end.
:57:13. > :57:16.We're in Boston, Lincolnshire next week.
:57:17. > :57:19.Boston had the highest Brexit vote in the UK at 75.6%.
:57:20. > :57:22.With us we'll have Priti Patel for the Tories, Emily Thornberry
:57:23. > :57:24.for Labour, Bonnie Greer and Rod Liddle.
:57:25. > :57:28.We'll be in Neath, South Wales the following week.
:57:29. > :57:32.Come and join us, Boston or Neath, go to our website,
:57:33. > :57:49.If you are listening tonight on Radio 5Live, welcome back!
:57:50. > :57:53.And the debate goes on there in Question Time Extra Time.
:57:54. > :58:33.From Sutton Coldfield, until next week, Goodnight
:58:34. > :58:36.50 years ago, they became superstars in astronomy,
:58:37. > :58:42.They represent the most productive period astronomy has ever had.
:58:43. > :58:46.And now, they're taking an anniversary trip.