0:00:02 > 0:00:04Welcome to this week's Question Time,
0:00:04 > 0:00:06which comes from Boston in Lincolnshire,
0:00:06 > 0:00:09the town which recorded the highest Brexit vote in the UK.
0:00:17 > 0:00:19On our panel tonight, we have
0:00:19 > 0:00:23the Conservative International Development Secretary, Priti Patel,
0:00:23 > 0:00:27Labour's Shadow Justice Secretary, Richard Burgon,
0:00:27 > 0:00:32Ukip's MEP spokesman on migration, Steven Woolfe,
0:00:32 > 0:00:34the playwright and novelist Bonnie Greer,
0:00:34 > 0:00:37who once wrote an opera about being on Question Time,
0:00:37 > 0:00:41and the columnist for the Sun and the Spectator, Rod Liddle.
0:00:56 > 0:01:00Thank you very much. I'm delighted to have Richard Burgon here.
0:01:00 > 0:01:04He replaces Emily Thornbury, the Shadow Foreign Secretary,
0:01:04 > 0:01:06who was going to be here but has gone to Israel
0:01:06 > 0:01:07for Shimon Peres's funeral.
0:01:07 > 0:01:09Now, remember, as ever,
0:01:09 > 0:01:10you can join in this debate
0:01:10 > 0:01:12as it gets going
0:01:12 > 0:01:14on Facebook and Twitter,
0:01:14 > 0:01:17or you can text us...
0:01:17 > 0:01:19Do get involved.
0:01:19 > 0:01:20A question to start with
0:01:20 > 0:01:23from Alex Law, please. Mr Law.
0:01:23 > 0:01:25Is Jeremy Corbyn out of touch
0:01:25 > 0:01:26with communities like Boston
0:01:26 > 0:01:27on the subject
0:01:27 > 0:01:29of unlimited immigration?
0:01:29 > 0:01:33Jeremy Corbyn, who said famously,
0:01:33 > 0:01:35we need to maintain free movement
0:01:35 > 0:01:36across our borders.
0:01:36 > 0:01:40Is he out of touch with communities like where we are here in Boston?
0:01:40 > 0:01:41Rod Liddle?
0:01:41 > 0:01:43Well, yes, he is, of course.
0:01:43 > 0:01:47I think it was 78.1% voted in Boston
0:01:47 > 0:01:49to leave the European Union,
0:01:49 > 0:01:51and immigration was
0:01:51 > 0:01:53a substantial part of that reason.
0:01:53 > 0:01:56And of course, 70% of the population,
0:01:56 > 0:02:00we know from opinion polls, are opposed or want more controls
0:02:00 > 0:02:04on immigration, and more than 50% want immigration stopped entirely.
0:02:04 > 0:02:07So, yes, of course he is out of touch.
0:02:07 > 0:02:09I mean, bless the bloke, he's not just out of touch on
0:02:09 > 0:02:13immigration, if we are absolutely honest, and it's...
0:02:13 > 0:02:15APPLAUSE
0:02:18 > 0:02:20And it's not just Jeremy.
0:02:20 > 0:02:23I mean, if you looked at the Labour Party conference this week,
0:02:23 > 0:02:26and I watched it with despair,
0:02:26 > 0:02:30as a mountain of hypocrisy and self-regard, Diane Abbott,
0:02:30 > 0:02:33stood up and said that anyone who voted, the people who voted
0:02:33 > 0:02:39for Brexit, were bigots and didn't like the look of foreign people.
0:02:39 > 0:02:44You're meant to be reaching out to new voters!
0:02:44 > 0:02:46That's 52% of the electorate, Diane,
0:02:46 > 0:02:48who are not going to vote for you, all right?
0:02:48 > 0:02:5052%, you've labelled bigots.
0:02:50 > 0:02:53Then, Shami Chakrabarti gets up and says,
0:02:53 > 0:02:57"Oh, don't leave me alone in this country with Essex Man."
0:02:57 > 0:03:03And the snobbery and disdain and loathing
0:03:03 > 0:03:08that the London left in the Labour Party has for ordinary,
0:03:08 > 0:03:10working people is remarkable.
0:03:10 > 0:03:14The party that was once the party of the working class.
0:03:14 > 0:03:15APPLAUSE
0:03:20 > 0:03:22Richard Burgon.
0:03:22 > 0:03:24Now, I'm on the left, I'm not
0:03:24 > 0:03:25from London, I do...
0:03:25 > 0:03:27I'm from Leeds.
0:03:27 > 0:03:29I do believe it's really important
0:03:29 > 0:03:31that people in Westminster
0:03:31 > 0:03:33don't patronise people in Boston
0:03:33 > 0:03:35or anywhere else,
0:03:35 > 0:03:37so I am totally resistant to
0:03:37 > 0:03:39any idea of the Westminster elite
0:03:39 > 0:03:44trying to wriggle out of the message that the British people sent
0:03:44 > 0:03:47in the European Union referendum.
0:03:47 > 0:03:51On the subject of immigration, I think we have to understand
0:03:51 > 0:03:56it's not as simple as sometimes some of the newspapers make out.
0:03:56 > 0:03:59Immigration can be separated into asylum seekers, who we have
0:03:59 > 0:04:04a duty to assist, fleeing death, torture and persecution,
0:04:04 > 0:04:07immigrants who wish to stay here for the rest of their lives,
0:04:07 > 0:04:10then the free movement of labour under the European Union.
0:04:10 > 0:04:13Jeremy Corbyn, in his conference speech,
0:04:13 > 0:04:15did address these issues,
0:04:15 > 0:04:18and what some people forget is that when Jeremy Corbyn said in
0:04:18 > 0:04:20his speech - and he said it before -
0:04:20 > 0:04:24that he's very concerned about free movement of labour being used
0:04:24 > 0:04:28by unscrupulous employers to undercut pay, terms and conditions,
0:04:28 > 0:04:30Tony Blair didn't say much about that,
0:04:30 > 0:04:33Gordon Brown didn't say much about that,
0:04:33 > 0:04:35so he is alert to that.
0:04:35 > 0:04:38And also, the Conservative Government abolished
0:04:38 > 0:04:43the Migration Impact Fund, which is meant to help areas like Boston,
0:04:43 > 0:04:47that have a large share of immigrants coming to it.
0:04:47 > 0:04:50And Labour, as Jeremy said in his speech the other day,
0:04:50 > 0:04:52will restore the Migration Impact Fund.
0:04:52 > 0:04:55So I actually think Jeremy is more alert to this.
0:04:55 > 0:04:57- And one last thing on this issue... - You think he's in tune with Boston?
0:04:57 > 0:05:00Well, that's for the people of Boston to decide
0:05:00 > 0:05:03at the next general election, it's not for me to speak for Boston.
0:05:03 > 0:05:05But I believe in the bread-and-butter issues
0:05:05 > 0:05:08of needing more council houses, needing more affordable homes,
0:05:08 > 0:05:11needing a real living wage that is meaningful,
0:05:11 > 0:05:15needing a situation where your children and grandchildren go
0:05:15 > 0:05:18to university without being saddled with £30,000 of debt and more.
0:05:18 > 0:05:21I think he is in touch on those bread-and-butter issues.
0:05:21 > 0:05:22You, sir?
0:05:24 > 0:05:27I completely agree with what the gentleman on the right...
0:05:27 > 0:05:30- Sorry, I don't know your name! - Rod Liddle? This one?
0:05:30 > 0:05:34- No, not the Labour one.- Richard. - The one on the right, over...- Me?
0:05:34 > 0:05:38Yes, you. You mentioned about hypocrisy.
0:05:38 > 0:05:42This is a common theme with leftists, very hypocritical people.
0:05:42 > 0:05:44They'll espouse, "You've got to be tolerant,
0:05:44 > 0:05:47"you've got to be very tolerant towards everyone
0:05:47 > 0:05:49"and tolerant towards people's views."
0:05:49 > 0:05:51But if they disagree with your views,
0:05:51 > 0:05:53they are very intolerant towards your views.
0:05:53 > 0:05:57I'm very interested in this, the psychology behind it,
0:05:57 > 0:06:00with leftists, I would term it, under the diagnostic,
0:06:00 > 0:06:02statistical manual of mental disorders,
0:06:02 > 0:06:05I would include socialist delusional disorder...
0:06:05 > 0:06:07Can I just...
0:06:07 > 0:06:09I would put it in with mental disorders.
0:06:09 > 0:06:12Because the hypocrisy is unbelievable,
0:06:12 > 0:06:15from a lot of people, but on the left side.
0:06:15 > 0:06:17Socialist disillusionment...?
0:06:17 > 0:06:20- Socialist delusional disorder. - Go on.
0:06:20 > 0:06:23It does rather sound like a caricature of
0:06:23 > 0:06:25the Stalinist Soviet Union,
0:06:25 > 0:06:28where people with the wrong political beliefs are being
0:06:28 > 0:06:31carted away and diagnosed as being politically or
0:06:31 > 0:06:34medically suspect, so I do take objection to that.
0:06:34 > 0:06:37Yeah, well, you will, because you're Labour, aren't you?
0:06:40 > 0:06:42Steven Woolfe.
0:06:44 > 0:06:47- Steven Woolfe.- Couldn't have expressed it any better myself.
0:06:47 > 0:06:49The thing about Corbyn is,
0:06:49 > 0:06:53I respect the man for having opinions or views of his own
0:06:53 > 0:06:54and challenging those within
0:06:54 > 0:06:58his own party to lead that party.
0:06:58 > 0:07:00But on this particular issue,
0:07:00 > 0:07:04all I can say about him is that he is reckless,
0:07:04 > 0:07:07he is irresponsible and he is selfish.
0:07:07 > 0:07:11It's selfish for a man to say that "I'm relaxed about the numbers
0:07:11 > 0:07:13"of migrants in this country,
0:07:13 > 0:07:16"and I'm not concerned about the numbers whatsoever."
0:07:16 > 0:07:19It is easy to be relaxed if you live in a £1 million house
0:07:19 > 0:07:22in a nice, comfortable zone in London.
0:07:22 > 0:07:24It's easy to be relaxed
0:07:24 > 0:07:26if you have a salary provided by you in this audience.
0:07:26 > 0:07:29It's easy to be relaxed if you are going to have a pension
0:07:29 > 0:07:32that most people in this country would dream about.
0:07:32 > 0:07:33Whilst here, at the Pilgrims Hospital,
0:07:33 > 0:07:35you're having to queue into the early hours to get seen,
0:07:35 > 0:07:38while you've got 4,000 new houses having to be built
0:07:38 > 0:07:40to command the number of people having to come here,
0:07:40 > 0:07:42while you've got the rising crime in this area,
0:07:42 > 0:07:45while people can't get into schools, all the same sort of things,
0:07:45 > 0:07:48Richard, you and I agree need to be dealt with.
0:07:48 > 0:07:50And you cannot deal with immigration in this country,
0:07:50 > 0:07:53to create an ethical, fair migration policy,
0:07:53 > 0:07:55without a visa system that controls
0:07:55 > 0:07:57the numbers of people coming into this country,
0:07:57 > 0:08:01because you will never know what services you have.
0:08:01 > 0:08:04And you will never know...
0:08:05 > 0:08:08You will never know how much money you will need to provide for
0:08:08 > 0:08:11those services, and you will never know how much...the migration fund
0:08:11 > 0:08:14that you require, if you can't get a grip of that first.
0:08:14 > 0:08:17But without immigration, you can't maintain our NHS either.
0:08:17 > 0:08:20Now, that is where you come to a very dignified point,
0:08:20 > 0:08:21and I accept that.
0:08:21 > 0:08:23Everybody in this audience, including our party,
0:08:23 > 0:08:26and if you read my policy, I've made it clear,
0:08:26 > 0:08:29migration into this country is necessary and important.
0:08:29 > 0:08:32All we have ever simply said is we must not have
0:08:32 > 0:08:35uncontrolled mass migration, because it pushes down wages.
0:08:35 > 0:08:36Steven, thank you.
0:08:40 > 0:08:42We'll hear from one or two more members of our audience,
0:08:42 > 0:08:43then we'll move on. Yes?
0:08:43 > 0:08:47The Labour MP said that Jeremy Corbyn wants to listen to
0:08:47 > 0:08:49the British people.
0:08:49 > 0:08:52But he's not actually listening to the PLP,
0:08:52 > 0:08:56who are, in fact, elected by the British people.
0:08:56 > 0:08:59Right now, he's talking about deselecting them,
0:08:59 > 0:09:03or people who are supporting him are talking about deselecting them.
0:09:03 > 0:09:06That doesn't sound to me like he's listening to anybody,
0:09:06 > 0:09:10apart from himself and 330-odd people that are part
0:09:10 > 0:09:14of the membership, I don't know.
0:09:14 > 0:09:16So, the elected MPs are not ruling Labour's roost,
0:09:16 > 0:09:19- is what you're really saying. - Well...
0:09:19 > 0:09:21Hold that for a moment, let me just hear from one or two others.
0:09:21 > 0:09:24You in the middle, with the spectacles on.
0:09:24 > 0:09:26Mr Woolfe, you just asked about how Jeremy Corbyn finds it easy
0:09:26 > 0:09:29to relax while he's sitting in a luxury house in London,
0:09:29 > 0:09:33not worrying about immigration.
0:09:33 > 0:09:35It's also easy for us to relax when we have immigrants here,
0:09:35 > 0:09:37because of uncontrolled immigration,
0:09:37 > 0:09:39who are doing the work in the fields that we don't want to do.
0:09:39 > 0:09:42If we were to cut uncontrolled immigration, then those fields
0:09:42 > 0:09:46would be empty and we wouldn't have the economy in Boston that we do.
0:09:46 > 0:09:49- That's absolute nonsense, I'm sorry. That's nonsense.- You, sir?
0:09:49 > 0:09:54No, that's not right, because the wages...
0:09:54 > 0:09:57If you've seen the hideous exploitation which there
0:09:57 > 0:10:00has been with these migrant workers coming over here...
0:10:00 > 0:10:03There was a horrible case in the paper yesterday of people
0:10:03 > 0:10:06being paid virtually nothing and living in appalling accommodation.
0:10:06 > 0:10:12British workers will not put up with that and they shouldn't.
0:10:12 > 0:10:14You, sir?
0:10:17 > 0:10:20I heard a discussion on local radio recently,
0:10:20 > 0:10:24where it was suggested that Lincolnshire councils are not
0:10:24 > 0:10:29doing enough to help and re-home, etc, Syrian refugees.
0:10:29 > 0:10:32What they also suggested, that we, the people of
0:10:32 > 0:10:34Lincolnshire in this room, should take them into our houses.
0:10:34 > 0:10:37You don't know who you're going to get.
0:10:37 > 0:10:40I'm not saying they're all murderers or terrorists or whatever,
0:10:40 > 0:10:43but you've no background checks on some of these people,
0:10:43 > 0:10:45we just don't know who we're going to get, then to say,
0:10:45 > 0:10:47"Well, take them into your houses", I wonder if the people
0:10:47 > 0:10:50who are actually saying this and organising this...
0:10:50 > 0:10:52You're not saying that you're being asked to, but to invite them in...
0:10:52 > 0:10:56No, you don't have to do it, but they are saying you could do it.
0:10:56 > 0:11:01- And it...it's unbelievable. - Priti Patel?
0:11:01 > 0:11:03Well, look, I mean,
0:11:03 > 0:11:07let me start by answering the question that was put first of all.
0:11:07 > 0:11:11In terms of Jeremy Corbyn, I take the view pretty clearly that
0:11:11 > 0:11:13he is not listening to the voices
0:11:13 > 0:11:15of people here in Boston,
0:11:15 > 0:11:16or the electorate that voted
0:11:16 > 0:11:19very clearly to take back control
0:11:19 > 0:11:21of our borders and our immigration policy,
0:11:21 > 0:11:24and I think what we have seen recently,
0:11:24 > 0:11:26even people in his own party,
0:11:26 > 0:11:29there are Labour MPs who, during the referendum campaign,
0:11:29 > 0:11:32were saying that the Labour Party needs to be more in tune with
0:11:32 > 0:11:35people out and about, across the country.
0:11:35 > 0:11:38And I think it's a terrible reflection, actually,
0:11:38 > 0:11:42of Jeremy Corbyn that he still wants to espouse free movement,
0:11:42 > 0:11:46but he's in denial in terms of what the British public have said
0:11:46 > 0:11:48and have voted for, not just in the referendum,
0:11:48 > 0:11:52but also, he will not acknowledge the failure of successive
0:11:52 > 0:11:55Labour governments when it comes to free movement,
0:11:55 > 0:11:59the lack of transitional controls when Eastern European countries
0:11:59 > 0:12:01were joining the European Union,
0:12:01 > 0:12:04when accession states were joining Europe, and the fact,
0:12:04 > 0:12:07quite frankly, that when it came to access to public services,
0:12:07 > 0:12:10they were in utter denial about the pressure
0:12:10 > 0:12:13that uncontrolled immigration was putting on our public services...
0:12:13 > 0:12:15But you don't have much of a record on it,
0:12:15 > 0:12:18- you presided over the highest rise...- Well, we do.
0:12:18 > 0:12:20The Tory Government...
0:12:20 > 0:12:23Net migration is currently at 327,000 a year, I think.
0:12:23 > 0:12:24The highest it's ever been.
0:12:24 > 0:12:26There are two points I'd like to make.
0:12:26 > 0:12:30In the last six years, we have taken measures -
0:12:30 > 0:12:33in fact, there's been legislation to stop people from Europe coming to
0:12:33 > 0:12:35exploit, for example, the benefits system...
0:12:35 > 0:12:37So, how come it's at the highest level...
0:12:37 > 0:12:40- Third-highest, I think, on record? - ..and accessing housing benefit.
0:12:40 > 0:12:43But they are not here to take benefits, they are here to work.
0:12:43 > 0:12:45These are just measures that we've taken...
0:12:45 > 0:12:47Then why have you abolished the Migration Impact Fund?
0:12:47 > 0:12:50The other point to make, of course, is that, you know,
0:12:50 > 0:12:52this is a complex issue and there is no silver bullet.
0:12:52 > 0:12:54You're not going to control numbers overnight.
0:12:54 > 0:12:57I think we should all be responsible here, as politicians,
0:12:57 > 0:12:59and actually acknowledge that.
0:12:59 > 0:13:01There is more that needs to be done, and of course,
0:13:01 > 0:13:04the Government will continue to work to get numbers down.
0:13:04 > 0:13:06And there is, of course,
0:13:06 > 0:13:09the other issue - our focus is that we can commit
0:13:09 > 0:13:11that once we have left the European Union,
0:13:11 > 0:13:15we will be able to take control from the European Union
0:13:15 > 0:13:16of the people that will be coming here,
0:13:16 > 0:13:18and that is our focus now in government,
0:13:18 > 0:13:20when it comes to immigration.
0:13:20 > 0:13:23OK, you thought it would work, we'll see whether it does.
0:13:23 > 0:13:25The woman there on the right, then I'll come to you, Bonnie.
0:13:25 > 0:13:28Yeah, immigration in Boston - it's happened.
0:13:28 > 0:13:33You know, Boston is a very, very big town now, we can't send people back,
0:13:33 > 0:13:37we're breeding all the time from whatever...corner of the town.
0:13:37 > 0:13:40What we need to do, we need to invest heavily
0:13:40 > 0:13:45in the frontline services - A&E, EMAS, the police -
0:13:45 > 0:13:47because we're struggling so much.
0:13:47 > 0:13:49We really need to put some money into those services.
0:13:49 > 0:13:52You know, it's happened, immigration,
0:13:52 > 0:13:54you can count the numbers all over the place, it's happened.
0:13:59 > 0:14:03So, from your point of view, is Jeremy Corbyn out of touch,
0:14:03 > 0:14:06or are you saying that the things that Richard Burgon said
0:14:06 > 0:14:08is the right reaction?
0:14:08 > 0:14:11Yeah, completely out of touch, completely out of touch.
0:14:11 > 0:14:15But it's the Conservative Government who are hellbent on making cuts
0:14:15 > 0:14:18to public services in places like Boston and across the country,
0:14:18 > 0:14:21and we do need an end to austerity cuts,
0:14:21 > 0:14:23because that's causing real problems for working-class people
0:14:23 > 0:14:25in Boston and everywhere else, too.
0:14:25 > 0:14:28But Richard, it was your government who let people come in
0:14:28 > 0:14:31without any provision for public services and didn't even
0:14:31 > 0:14:33acknowledge the type of numbers that were coming in.
0:14:33 > 0:14:34Bonnie Greer.
0:14:34 > 0:14:36I'm not a politician
0:14:36 > 0:14:41and I'm the only immigrant on this panel, so...
0:14:41 > 0:14:42I'm not going to come up
0:14:42 > 0:14:43with any policy stuff,
0:14:43 > 0:14:45I don't know all of this.
0:14:45 > 0:14:47It seems to me, looking at it,
0:14:47 > 0:14:50that first of all, this town, and maybe this region,
0:14:50 > 0:14:52has been left on its own.
0:14:52 > 0:14:56- I don't understand why... - APPLAUSE
0:14:57 > 0:15:03I don't understand why and I think it has to do with both parties,
0:15:03 > 0:15:06or maybe three parties, I don't understand why this happened.
0:15:06 > 0:15:08That's the first thing.
0:15:08 > 0:15:12The second thing is that...
0:15:12 > 0:15:15We all know that we all live in an ageing society.
0:15:15 > 0:15:17Our country, this country -
0:15:17 > 0:15:19and I'm a citizen of this country, so I say "our" -
0:15:19 > 0:15:24is getting older and if we look at the example of Japan right now,
0:15:24 > 0:15:26which has very little immigration,
0:15:26 > 0:15:28the Japanese economy is in deep trouble
0:15:28 > 0:15:31because they're not replacing human beings,
0:15:31 > 0:15:37so there's an economic argument for immigration.
0:15:37 > 0:15:40I don't know how you want to do it, how you want to make it work,
0:15:40 > 0:15:42but you need folks in here,
0:15:42 > 0:15:45because the country is getting older.
0:15:45 > 0:15:48- That's unsustainable, Bonnie. - No, no, it is...
0:15:48 > 0:15:51You can't just keep bringing young people in every few years.
0:15:51 > 0:15:56I didn't say... I didn't give an answer, I'm telling you a reality.
0:15:56 > 0:15:57That is a reality.
0:15:57 > 0:16:01Now, it would seem to me that any party in charge
0:16:01 > 0:16:05has to look at the reality, the economic base
0:16:05 > 0:16:07and future of the country,
0:16:07 > 0:16:09and the fact that we're going to have an enormous amount
0:16:09 > 0:16:13of pensioners who will not be able to be taken care of.
0:16:13 > 0:16:15But the third thing I want to say -
0:16:15 > 0:16:20and this is a harsh thing to say, but it's the truth -
0:16:20 > 0:16:24we're a migratory species, we human beings, and we move.
0:16:24 > 0:16:30We move to better ourselves, we move to go and find things we need,
0:16:30 > 0:16:33we've always moved, we will continue to move.
0:16:33 > 0:16:37This town of Boston is the second Boston I've been in.
0:16:37 > 0:16:39The first one is in Massachusetts,
0:16:39 > 0:16:44and people from your town founded that town,
0:16:44 > 0:16:46and they founded it because
0:16:46 > 0:16:49they wanted to have a better life and they moved.
0:16:49 > 0:16:52- And Boston... - APPLAUSE
0:16:52 > 0:16:56Listen, I'm not being flippant about this.
0:16:56 > 0:17:00I respect everything you're saying, but I think we need to move away
0:17:00 > 0:17:02from these political...
0:17:02 > 0:17:06Because the political parties, particularly the Conservative Party,
0:17:06 > 0:17:10which has actually had a mano a mano within itself
0:17:10 > 0:17:13for the last, maybe, 20 years, over Europe,
0:17:13 > 0:17:15and now Ukip is eating their lunch,
0:17:15 > 0:17:20basically, is a lot of what is happening here as well.
0:17:20 > 0:17:25But your town and your concerns need to be addressed,
0:17:25 > 0:17:28and we also have to understand the realities of human movement
0:17:28 > 0:17:32and the fact that we're in the biggest surge of humanity
0:17:32 > 0:17:33since the Second World War.
0:17:33 > 0:17:37And just to go back to what Jeremy Corbyn said, that we need to
0:17:37 > 0:17:39maintain free movement, do you agree with that?
0:17:39 > 0:17:41Or do you think that, on that particular point,
0:17:41 > 0:17:45Jeremy Corbyn is out of touch with the opinions of people who,
0:17:45 > 0:17:47for instance, who voted Brexit,
0:17:47 > 0:17:49a large number of whom are here in Boston?
0:17:49 > 0:17:51Well, I think, you know, I'm a passionate Remainer,
0:17:51 > 0:17:55but I believe in the people have spoken,
0:17:55 > 0:17:58and, if the people have spoken, the people's will must be done.
0:17:58 > 0:18:00- Yeah.- However, however...
0:18:00 > 0:18:02APPLAUSE
0:18:02 > 0:18:06..and I'm not a Corbynista, or whatever that is,
0:18:06 > 0:18:11but I want to say that, it seems to me that a leader is also
0:18:11 > 0:18:13someone who has an idea about something,
0:18:13 > 0:18:15a vision about something.
0:18:15 > 0:18:17This is Jeremy Corbyn's idea.
0:18:17 > 0:18:21Now, if he's out of touch with you, that's another point,
0:18:21 > 0:18:23that's work he has to do,
0:18:23 > 0:18:26but he has the right and we demand that
0:18:26 > 0:18:30he has an idea of this country and what it should do.
0:18:30 > 0:18:34Freedom of movement, if we are going to have any sort of relationship
0:18:34 > 0:18:36with the rest of the world,
0:18:36 > 0:18:39particularly with Europe, has to be something that's thought about.
0:18:39 > 0:18:41Thank you very much. You in the back, there.
0:18:41 > 0:18:46I'd like to agree with the lady at the back, there, and Richard.
0:18:46 > 0:18:50Jeremy Corbyn's Government would be the only Government
0:18:50 > 0:18:53to invest in communities and put money into areas
0:18:53 > 0:18:57where there has been high levels of migration -
0:18:57 > 0:18:58he'd invest in that.
0:18:58 > 0:19:01I can't see a Tory Government investing and putting money
0:19:01 > 0:19:03into the public services that people need.
0:19:03 > 0:19:06All right, and the woman in the front row here?
0:19:06 > 0:19:07APPLAUSE
0:19:07 > 0:19:12- Yes?- The only people to blame for this is the Government.
0:19:12 > 0:19:17Where did they expect, all these migrants coming over,
0:19:17 > 0:19:19where were they going to put 'em?
0:19:19 > 0:19:21I've got grown-up children.
0:19:21 > 0:19:23They can't get a place, a council place.
0:19:23 > 0:19:25My daughter was actually told,
0:19:25 > 0:19:29"Come back and see us, 10, 15 years."
0:19:29 > 0:19:32This went back well over ten years ago.
0:19:32 > 0:19:35My daughter couldn't go to the local school,
0:19:35 > 0:19:39cos there was a high influx of migrants,
0:19:39 > 0:19:42so she had to go about 18 miles away.
0:19:42 > 0:19:48I had to pay £5.60 a day for her to go to that school,
0:19:48 > 0:19:52when a local school was two or three minutes round the corner,
0:19:52 > 0:19:53but because...
0:19:53 > 0:19:56And what I'm trying to say, ten years ago,
0:19:56 > 0:20:00they knew about this, and ten years on...
0:20:00 > 0:20:04Where do you put these people? They never did nothing.
0:20:04 > 0:20:05Priti Patel.
0:20:05 > 0:20:09I think this comes to the point that, over a period of time,
0:20:09 > 0:20:13previous Governments simply failed to acknowledge,
0:20:13 > 0:20:15and these were Labour Governments as well...
0:20:15 > 0:20:17But these Governments, you all say the same,
0:20:17 > 0:20:19no matter who gets in power,
0:20:19 > 0:20:21- you're going to do this... - APPLAUSE
0:20:21 > 0:20:26..you're going to do that, and then the next one in power,
0:20:26 > 0:20:30they say, "Get us in. We'll do that, we'll do that."
0:20:30 > 0:20:32You don't do nothing whatsoever.
0:20:32 > 0:20:34Well, in terms of controlling immigration,
0:20:34 > 0:20:37there was uncontrolled immigration under Labour and I think,
0:20:37 > 0:20:39actually, Richard needs to acknowledge that.
0:20:39 > 0:20:40There still is, Priti!
0:20:40 > 0:20:42But also, in terms of transitional controls,
0:20:42 > 0:20:44there were no transitional controls under Labour,
0:20:44 > 0:20:47it was us Conservatives who put them in, but the reality is -
0:20:47 > 0:20:49and you've just highlighted this yourself -
0:20:49 > 0:20:51people came in, there were no controls,
0:20:51 > 0:20:55and that amounted to successive pressure on public services,
0:20:55 > 0:20:59and so the point is, politicians are now responding to,
0:20:59 > 0:21:01quite rightly, the anxieties and the concerns
0:21:01 > 0:21:04and the real strain and pressure that we are seeing
0:21:04 > 0:21:06across the country,
0:21:06 > 0:21:09and I was out during the referendum campaign every day,
0:21:09 > 0:21:12travelling the country, and this was the number one issue
0:21:12 > 0:21:14that came up in terms of pressures on public services
0:21:14 > 0:21:17and how communities felt disenfranchised
0:21:17 > 0:21:20from the political leaders in Westminster,
0:21:20 > 0:21:22who they quite categorically said were doing
0:21:22 > 0:21:24nothing about addressing these concerns,
0:21:24 > 0:21:28so, going back to Labour, this just shows how out of touch Labour are,
0:21:28 > 0:21:32how out of touch Jeremy Corbyn is, but also, the fact is,
0:21:32 > 0:21:35we've had the referendum, we are committed now, in Government,
0:21:35 > 0:21:38to get on and do the right thing and deliver Brexit
0:21:38 > 0:21:42and get on with the immigration control that's needed.
0:21:42 > 0:21:47We have to wait for yous to decide when we leave the EU.
0:21:47 > 0:21:49We'll come to that question in just a second.
0:21:49 > 0:21:50I want to go to the woman on the right.
0:21:50 > 0:21:52No, you've spoken already.
0:21:52 > 0:21:55We're going to the woman up there, in the third row from the back.
0:21:55 > 0:22:01Eric Pickles axed the Migration Impact Fund in 2010
0:22:01 > 0:22:04and the Tory Party has been complacent
0:22:04 > 0:22:07about levels of immigration ever since
0:22:07 > 0:22:11and, erm...they've just been completely complacent.
0:22:11 > 0:22:13OK. Rod, do you want to come in
0:22:13 > 0:22:15and then we'll move on to the next question?
0:22:15 > 0:22:17My point was just addressing the original question,
0:22:17 > 0:22:19is Jeremy out of touch?
0:22:19 > 0:22:21He is at - and think of it -
0:22:21 > 0:22:2526% Labour is in the opinion polls at the moment.
0:22:25 > 0:22:30That's below Michael Foot in the 1983 general election,
0:22:30 > 0:22:34meant to be the nadir of all Labour performances, when...
0:22:34 > 0:22:36Well, "out of touch" doesn't mean he's wrong, Rod. This man...
0:22:36 > 0:22:39Hang on, just let me finish.
0:22:39 > 0:22:43When Labour was actually up against a woman,
0:22:43 > 0:22:45a Prime Minister who'd won a popular war,
0:22:45 > 0:22:48and a credible opposition in the SDP as well,
0:22:48 > 0:22:55at 26% and with a popularity rating and an approval rating of -100.
0:22:55 > 0:22:59- Even I struggle to get that! - What this town is asking...
0:22:59 > 0:23:00APPLAUSE
0:23:00 > 0:23:03- Let me bring Labour in on this. - He is wildly out of touch
0:23:03 > 0:23:06and the bubble gets smaller and smaller and they wrap
0:23:06 > 0:23:10themselves in it and they don't give a monkey's what people
0:23:10 > 0:23:11outside that bubble think.
0:23:11 > 0:23:15Richard Burgon, you are... APPLAUSE
0:23:15 > 0:23:17I'm going to go... When we've had an answer from him,
0:23:17 > 0:23:19I'm going to go on, cos we want to talk about Brexit,
0:23:19 > 0:23:23but just on Corbyn and what Rod Liddle has said.
0:23:23 > 0:23:25Well, in Jeremy Corbyn's speech at the party conference
0:23:25 > 0:23:27in Liverpool the other day,
0:23:27 > 0:23:30he did say that we have an electoral mountain to climb,
0:23:30 > 0:23:32and the opinion polls that Rod has outlined
0:23:32 > 0:23:34show that that's the case,
0:23:34 > 0:23:37but I think one of the main reasons for those opinion polls
0:23:37 > 0:23:39are the last three months
0:23:39 > 0:23:41of an unnecessary leadership election.
0:23:41 > 0:23:43It's time for Labour to look outward,
0:23:43 > 0:23:45take the fight to the Conservatives.
0:23:45 > 0:23:48It's also time, on this whole issue of austerity,
0:23:48 > 0:23:51this whole issue of cuts and lack of houses,
0:23:51 > 0:23:54lack of services, to hold the Government to account
0:23:54 > 0:23:57for their political choice of making everyone in this audience
0:23:57 > 0:24:02pay the price for a bankers' crisis in 2008 that they didn't cause.
0:24:02 > 0:24:05It's always someone else's fault, it's always someone else's fault
0:24:05 > 0:24:08than the Government's that there isn't enough council housing.
0:24:08 > 0:24:10It's always someone else's fault than the Government's
0:24:10 > 0:24:12that there aren't enough jobs.
0:24:12 > 0:24:14Perhaps it's the Government's fault, perhaps it's their fault,
0:24:14 > 0:24:17for making you all pay the price for a crisis that you didn't cause.
0:24:17 > 0:24:21All right. Thank you. APPLAUSE
0:24:21 > 0:24:24Now, we're going to go on to another question, but just before we do,
0:24:24 > 0:24:27Neath in South Wales is going to have a visitation from
0:24:27 > 0:24:32Question Time next week, and Hendon in North London the week after that.
0:24:32 > 0:24:34I'll give the details of how to apply
0:24:34 > 0:24:35at the end of the programme again,
0:24:35 > 0:24:37but if you have a look on the screen there,
0:24:37 > 0:24:40if you'd like to come to Neath or Hendon and have your say,
0:24:40 > 0:24:42that's how to do it.
0:24:42 > 0:24:46I want a question, please, from Martin Bontoft. Martin Bontoft.
0:24:46 > 0:24:50Isn't it time that this Government stopped dithering over Brexit?
0:24:50 > 0:24:52Which is what you feel they're doing, presumably.
0:24:52 > 0:24:55Yes, I mean, I think we're at a stage where we need some
0:24:55 > 0:25:00very strong leadership, as much so in my lifetime as any other time.
0:25:00 > 0:25:02Steven Woolfe.
0:25:02 > 0:25:05The Government has to move rapidly, effectively,
0:25:05 > 0:25:08to ensure that the will of the people is complete,
0:25:08 > 0:25:11and what the will of the people was, is that we leave Brexit.
0:25:11 > 0:25:16I hear these arguments that the 48% versus the 52%.
0:25:16 > 0:25:17Well, here in Boston,
0:25:17 > 0:25:19you were the 76.5%
0:25:19 > 0:25:21and in many of the towns that I campaigned
0:25:21 > 0:25:24across the North of England, from Stoke to Lichfield,
0:25:24 > 0:25:29to Blackpool to Bury, all of those towns voted in huge numbers
0:25:29 > 0:25:32for a decisive action that we take back control of our laws completely,
0:25:32 > 0:25:35that we take back control of our borders completely,
0:25:35 > 0:25:37that we get control of our fisheries
0:25:37 > 0:25:41and that we stop spending the money that we have week in, week out,
0:25:41 > 0:25:43which will continue to be spent
0:25:43 > 0:25:46until we leave this sclerotic project.
0:25:46 > 0:25:49And that is why we need to move exceedingly rapidly.
0:25:49 > 0:25:51Exceedingly rapidly is one thing -
0:25:51 > 0:25:53do you think the Government is actually dithering?
0:25:53 > 0:25:56Is your view that it could have done more sooner?
0:25:56 > 0:25:59- Look, I've opened my mind to this a little bit.- What does that mean?
0:25:59 > 0:26:02What I meant by it is that all of our parties,
0:26:02 > 0:26:05including our own, have had these election processes going on.
0:26:05 > 0:26:10I've seen that Theresa May has put in Liam Fox and David Davis into
0:26:10 > 0:26:14significant positions, and people do have to listen to the arguments
0:26:14 > 0:26:18about how we achieve the ultimate goal of ensuring that we get Brexit.
0:26:18 > 0:26:21There's no hard Brexit. There's no soft Brexit.
0:26:21 > 0:26:22It's just simple - it's Brexit,
0:26:22 > 0:26:24and we're here to make sure it happens.
0:26:24 > 0:26:26That's what the Prime Minister says.
0:26:26 > 0:26:28There's no difference between soft and hard in your view?
0:26:28 > 0:26:30No, there isn't, because, quite clearly,
0:26:30 > 0:26:33the arguments were that those four points that I talked about -
0:26:33 > 0:26:35control of our money, control of our borders,
0:26:35 > 0:26:37control of our fisheries
0:26:37 > 0:26:39and ensuring that we stop spending our money - and make sure,
0:26:39 > 0:26:41as we talked about, Richard,
0:26:41 > 0:26:44that that money comes back into the coffers of the UK, the billions
0:26:44 > 0:26:47that are currently being spent on projects across Europe to
0:26:47 > 0:26:49ensure that we do have the funds, because when we do talk about
0:26:49 > 0:26:52the economics of the Labour Party, it's in fantasy world.
0:26:52 > 0:26:55When you have nearly 4,000,000 people coming to this country
0:26:55 > 0:26:59in 10 to 11 years, when you have, as we've looked here in Boston,
0:26:59 > 0:27:03the costs are in their hundreds of billions, not the 50 or 100 million
0:27:03 > 0:27:06that are proposed, and when we leave the European Union,
0:27:06 > 0:27:09when we leave, that is the time that we'll be able to take that
0:27:09 > 0:27:13money back, controlled, into our pocket and spent on the services
0:27:13 > 0:27:16that this town and hundreds of towns and cities across this country need.
0:27:16 > 0:27:19APPLAUSE
0:27:19 > 0:27:20Well...
0:27:22 > 0:27:25..we know what the various parties' policies are,
0:27:25 > 0:27:27but the question Martin's asking
0:27:27 > 0:27:29is about whether the Government's dithering and, Priti Patel,
0:27:29 > 0:27:33I put to you what Ken Clarke said today -
0:27:33 > 0:27:35"Nobody in this Government has the first idea
0:27:35 > 0:27:39- "of what they're going to do next on the Brexit front."- Well...
0:27:39 > 0:27:42That's Ken Clarke, much admired - I know he was a Remainer -
0:27:42 > 0:27:45but much admired for his observations on politics.
0:27:45 > 0:27:47What do you say to that?
0:27:47 > 0:27:50Well, I have pure respect for Ken, but we have a plan,
0:27:50 > 0:27:53and our plan is to make a success of Brexit.
0:27:53 > 0:27:56This is a unique opportunity for us,
0:27:56 > 0:27:58it is a golden opportunity for us now,
0:27:58 > 0:28:01when it comes to looking to the future,
0:28:01 > 0:28:02being outward-looking,
0:28:02 > 0:28:05leaning out in terms of our place in the world.
0:28:05 > 0:28:07Steven's already highlighted some of the key things
0:28:07 > 0:28:10in terms of money and what we will get back,
0:28:10 > 0:28:12but I think it's important to say a couple of things about
0:28:12 > 0:28:16negotiations and it's wrong to say nothing is happening.
0:28:16 > 0:28:19You know, Theresa May has shown very, very clear leadership.
0:28:19 > 0:28:21She's set up two new Government departments
0:28:21 > 0:28:24focused on leaving the European Union.
0:28:24 > 0:28:27This is not going to be a straightforward negotiation.
0:28:27 > 0:28:29We are in that process, she is leading on that,
0:28:29 > 0:28:32she's already started to speak to European Union leaders,
0:28:32 > 0:28:35and that is the right thing to do, and of course we have
0:28:35 > 0:28:38the machinery of Government working on the details of her plan.
0:28:38 > 0:28:42When will she decide when to implement Article 50?
0:28:42 > 0:28:44Or has she decided when to do it?
0:28:44 > 0:28:48She will, in due course, she will announce the details of that,
0:28:48 > 0:28:49but I think, quite rightly so...
0:28:49 > 0:28:52You know, I've worked in business before and when I've been out there
0:28:52 > 0:28:55negotiating, whether it's business deals and things of that nature,
0:28:55 > 0:28:57I'm not going to go and put my cards on the table,
0:28:57 > 0:29:00and so we're not going to give a running commentary on this.
0:29:00 > 0:29:01Martin, are you happy with this answer?
0:29:01 > 0:29:03Well, the problem I have with this
0:29:03 > 0:29:08is that it was put to the electorate quite simply - remain or leave -
0:29:08 > 0:29:10and it was as black and white as that.
0:29:10 > 0:29:13There were no grey areas at that time.
0:29:13 > 0:29:16It's only since then, since they got the answer
0:29:16 > 0:29:19that they probably didn't want and didn't expect,
0:29:19 > 0:29:22that the grey areas have come up and it seems now that everybody's
0:29:22 > 0:29:25going to have lots of hot dinners negotiating round tables and,
0:29:25 > 0:29:28you know, it's going to be endless, an endless process,
0:29:28 > 0:29:30and I think we need to be incisive.
0:29:30 > 0:29:33Well, it won't be. And I think it's important to say
0:29:33 > 0:29:35that the Prime Minister, and rightly so, and the Government,
0:29:35 > 0:29:38are focused on getting the best deal and the right deal for Britain.
0:29:38 > 0:29:41We are putting Britain's national interest first.
0:29:41 > 0:29:42That is the right thing to do
0:29:42 > 0:29:44following the result of the European Union.
0:29:44 > 0:29:47She's unequivocal when she has said Brexit means Brexit.
0:29:47 > 0:29:50There's no faffing about - we will deliver on that,
0:29:50 > 0:29:52and we will deliver the right deal for our country.
0:29:52 > 0:29:55And is there any deadline on when Article 50 might be invoked,
0:29:55 > 0:29:58ie, we say we're leaving and have the two years to negotiate?
0:29:58 > 0:30:01I've already said we're not going to give a running commentary.
0:30:01 > 0:30:04I know, but I mean, next year? The year after? The year after that?
0:30:04 > 0:30:05We are working on this.
0:30:05 > 0:30:08- It's not...- That's not acceptable. - We will work to do this
0:30:08 > 0:30:11and this isn't about how quickly, because you have to...
0:30:11 > 0:30:13Well, it is for him, because he wants action!
0:30:13 > 0:30:15He's not going to live long enough!
0:30:15 > 0:30:17LAUGHTER AND APPLAUSE
0:30:17 > 0:30:18That's a bit harsh!
0:30:21 > 0:30:23You look perfectly well to me.
0:30:23 > 0:30:25Bonnie Greer.
0:30:25 > 0:30:29This audience, and the rest of the people in this country,
0:30:29 > 0:30:32are clever enough to know what was promised to them
0:30:32 > 0:30:37and what was implied in the vote - that this was going to happen.
0:30:37 > 0:30:39Now, the deal is, and I don't think
0:30:39 > 0:30:41you have to be in politics to understand this or know this,
0:30:41 > 0:30:46Matteo Renzi, who is Prime Minister of Italy, laid it out today.
0:30:46 > 0:30:50The fact is that Brexit is the result of the mano a mano
0:30:50 > 0:30:52that's been going on in the Conservative Party
0:30:52 > 0:30:55and the old Referendum Party that Priti used to belong to
0:30:55 > 0:30:58for 20 years.
0:30:58 > 0:31:03David Cameron decided to put the referendum out here
0:31:03 > 0:31:06in order to outflank his right wing.
0:31:06 > 0:31:09And as that gentleman said, he got the wrong answer,
0:31:09 > 0:31:11and that's why he resigned.
0:31:11 > 0:31:12Now, bom-bom-bom-bom-bom,
0:31:12 > 0:31:16you have a situation where you have people in court
0:31:16 > 0:31:19who are...who are at the High Court to ask this question
0:31:19 > 0:31:22which this government never dealt with.
0:31:22 > 0:31:27Does the Prime Minister have the right to use the Royal Prerogative
0:31:27 > 0:31:30to trigger Article 50?
0:31:30 > 0:31:37Now, the fact that the, uh, the past prime minister didn't do that,
0:31:37 > 0:31:40didn't find out if she was able to do that.
0:31:40 > 0:31:43We don't even know. There's tonnes of things.
0:31:43 > 0:31:45We've got 2,000 pages of legislation.
0:31:45 > 0:31:48There's 40 years of legislation.
0:31:48 > 0:31:51You'll need 365 civil servants alone to administer this,
0:31:51 > 0:31:53but they didn't think of that.
0:31:53 > 0:31:56- Because you guys weren't supposed to do this.- But Bonnie...
0:31:56 > 0:31:58No, no, you've had your...
0:31:58 > 0:32:00APPLAUSE
0:32:00 > 0:32:02I'll come to you. Richard Burgon.
0:32:05 > 0:32:07Well, firstly, to make it clear,
0:32:07 > 0:32:11Britain needs to leave the European Union
0:32:11 > 0:32:14because the British people decided to leave the European Union.
0:32:14 > 0:32:18No ifs, no buts. But what we need is a clear vision
0:32:18 > 0:32:20of what a Britain post-Brexit looks like.
0:32:20 > 0:32:23- And I want to raise two issues. - Hang on. Do you need that
0:32:23 > 0:32:25before you invoke Article 50?
0:32:25 > 0:32:27Well, we want to hear from the Government,
0:32:27 > 0:32:28and we haven't heard so far
0:32:28 > 0:32:30what kind of post-Brexit Britain they're proposing.
0:32:30 > 0:32:32- But...- Let me...
0:32:32 > 0:32:34To be precise, you would like the Government to say,
0:32:34 > 0:32:38"This is what we're aiming at, and we will now invoke Article 50"?
0:32:38 > 0:32:41That's what the Government should do. The Government
0:32:41 > 0:32:43should make clear the post-Brexit Britain they're negotiating.
0:32:43 > 0:32:46Even though people won't talk to them before they've done it?
0:32:46 > 0:32:49There are two important areas that I want to raise.
0:32:49 > 0:32:53I don't know what employment law is going to look like
0:32:53 > 0:32:55post-European Union exit.
0:32:55 > 0:32:59I want the Government to say they're going to keep the workers' rights
0:32:59 > 0:33:01that people in this country benefit from.
0:33:01 > 0:33:04And I have to say, I don't trust the Conservatives on employment rights,
0:33:04 > 0:33:07partly because Priti, and I have to mention this, did say,
0:33:07 > 0:33:09once they enter the workplace,
0:33:09 > 0:33:12the British are amongst the worst idlers in the world.
0:33:12 > 0:33:14- I did not say that. - She said that in 2012.
0:33:14 > 0:33:16- What's your second point? - My second point...
0:33:16 > 0:33:19It's in a book that you co-authored, Britannia Unchained.
0:33:19 > 0:33:21My second point is on human rights.
0:33:21 > 0:33:24On this very show five years ago,
0:33:24 > 0:33:28Priti revealed her enthusiasm for bringing back the death penalty
0:33:28 > 0:33:30even if it mean innocent people dying.
0:33:30 > 0:33:34So is it any wonder that people like myself don't trust the Conservatives
0:33:34 > 0:33:37either with employment rights or with your human rights?
0:33:37 > 0:33:39I think we're slightly off the point, aren't we?
0:33:39 > 0:33:42ALL TALK AT ONCE
0:33:42 > 0:33:44I think it's very important indeed.
0:33:44 > 0:33:46Employment rights and human rights...
0:33:46 > 0:33:49Rod Liddle. ALL TALK AT ONCE
0:33:49 > 0:33:53- Rod Liddle, please.- Your party doesn't believe that Britain
0:33:53 > 0:33:55- would be successful outside the EU. - I think we can be.
0:33:55 > 0:33:58Rod Liddle, and then we'll come to members of the audience.
0:33:58 > 0:34:00I think Bonnie was a little bit naughty,
0:34:00 > 0:34:02- if I may say so, Bonnie... - That's all right.
0:34:02 > 0:34:04..that having said yes, we had this vote,
0:34:04 > 0:34:07and it was a vote to leave, and therefore we must leave.
0:34:07 > 0:34:10And then to start bringing up this bizarre court action
0:34:10 > 0:34:14whereby these remaining sulking Remainers...
0:34:14 > 0:34:16SCATTERED APPLAUSE
0:34:16 > 0:34:18- ..totally unable...- Rod, Rod.
0:34:18 > 0:34:22Totally unable to get over the fact that they...
0:34:22 > 0:34:26- Rod, stop playing to the gallery. - It's not playing to the gallery.
0:34:26 > 0:34:31It is playing to the gallery, because we are a nation
0:34:31 > 0:34:34- under the rule of law, all right? - I'm aware we're a nation.
0:34:34 > 0:34:38Hang on. If somebody wants to go to law to ask a question...
0:34:38 > 0:34:40- We voted to leave... - Bonnie, this is my point.
0:34:40 > 0:34:44..the European Union. It is absolutely clear.
0:34:44 > 0:34:46So they can't go to law?
0:34:46 > 0:34:48Hang on a minute, let me speak for a second.
0:34:48 > 0:34:51It's increasingly clear to the Remainers,
0:34:51 > 0:34:52who are increasingly of the view
0:34:52 > 0:34:54that we should never have another vote
0:34:54 > 0:34:57and that Article 50 should be triggered...
0:34:57 > 0:35:00Now, as it happens, I don't agree with this gentleman.
0:35:00 > 0:35:02I think that, er, the Government
0:35:02 > 0:35:05isn't doing a bad job on Article 50 at the moment.
0:35:05 > 0:35:07I want the Government to work
0:35:07 > 0:35:13so that Britain gets the best possible deal out of leaving the EU.
0:35:13 > 0:35:16- Rod!- And secondly... - APPLAUSE
0:35:16 > 0:35:19And if that takes a few years, I don't mind that.
0:35:19 > 0:35:22And imagine how much better our position would be
0:35:22 > 0:35:25if, for example, France votes to leave the EU,
0:35:25 > 0:35:28- which is entirely possible... - For heaven's sake.
0:35:28 > 0:35:31- ..within a year or two. - ALL TALK AT ONCE
0:35:31 > 0:35:36You don't seriously believe that a vote of the people of this country
0:35:36 > 0:35:38who decided to leave the European Union
0:35:38 > 0:35:41- should be decided by a judge in chambers?- No.
0:35:41 > 0:35:42- Over the people of this country?- No.
0:35:42 > 0:35:44Hang on, hang on, hang on.
0:35:44 > 0:35:47Unelected body of the House of Lords.
0:35:47 > 0:35:48He's not asked to decide it.
0:35:48 > 0:35:50- No, I don't. Thank you, David. - He's being asked,
0:35:50 > 0:35:53as I understand it, to say whether Parliament...
0:35:53 > 0:35:55Ken Clarke, to go back to Ken Clarke,
0:35:55 > 0:35:57I think his words were,
0:35:57 > 0:36:01- "I'm not going to be told how to vote by an opinion poll."- Hang on...
0:36:01 > 0:36:04- Meaning the referendum. - Ken Clarke is seeking to get
0:36:04 > 0:36:08the Legion of Honour of France by keeping us in the European Union.
0:36:08 > 0:36:11- Let me go back...- He's been such a Remainer for so long.
0:36:11 > 0:36:14I am not somebody who thinks there should be a second referendum.
0:36:14 > 0:36:16That's wrong, that's wrong.
0:36:16 > 0:36:20But we are a nation of laws. It is OK to go to law
0:36:20 > 0:36:25to ask a question - do we make a decision like this by plebiscite
0:36:25 > 0:36:27or do we go back to our representative democracy?
0:36:27 > 0:36:31It is a question, and to imply or even to state
0:36:31 > 0:36:33that it's wrong for someone to want to go to court
0:36:33 > 0:36:35to ask the question of our nationality...
0:36:35 > 0:36:37So you don't want a second referendum,
0:36:37 > 0:36:39you just want to say, "Let's not do it."
0:36:39 > 0:36:42- No...- Let's get back, let's leave the law courts for the moment
0:36:42 > 0:36:45and go for the woman up there, assuming you're not
0:36:45 > 0:36:48part of the legal profession. LAUGHTER
0:36:48 > 0:36:51I just wanted to come back to something that Priti said.
0:36:51 > 0:36:54Er, I appreciate negotiation is really important
0:36:54 > 0:36:58and getting your ducks in a row - I negotiate day in, day out -
0:36:58 > 0:37:01but what I really want to know is when the Government are going to
0:37:01 > 0:37:03stop negotiating with people's lives and futures
0:37:03 > 0:37:04and guarantee the right to remain
0:37:04 > 0:37:07for those that have been here a long time and have lives and families.
0:37:07 > 0:37:09The guarantee of the right to remain.
0:37:09 > 0:37:13- Brief answer.- We've been clear, the Prime Minister has been clear,
0:37:13 > 0:37:17that of course, nothing changes until we leave the European Union,
0:37:17 > 0:37:19and she's working to give that guarantee.
0:37:19 > 0:37:21And she has said that categorically.
0:37:21 > 0:37:23There are some things you don't negotiate on.
0:37:23 > 0:37:27The man at the very back there. You, sir, in the middle.
0:37:27 > 0:37:29I'd say "making a success of Brexit"
0:37:29 > 0:37:31isn't really a policy position, is it?
0:37:31 > 0:37:33I agree with the member for Ukip
0:37:33 > 0:37:35that the money we send to Europe
0:37:35 > 0:37:38would be better spent on the likes of the NHS and that,
0:37:38 > 0:37:42but it still doesn't really solve the problems we have.
0:37:42 > 0:37:44Why doesn't anyone from any party
0:37:44 > 0:37:46really look at the likes of Bernie Sanders,
0:37:46 > 0:37:50who suggested taxing a fraction of 1% in speculative trading?
0:37:50 > 0:37:53It'd raise hundreds of billions a year.
0:37:53 > 0:37:55OK. Um, I think we might...
0:37:55 > 0:37:59I think we've done a fair half-hour or more about Brexit
0:37:59 > 0:38:01and about immigration.
0:38:01 > 0:38:02I'm going to go on to another question.
0:38:02 > 0:38:06- AUDIENCE MEMBER SHOUTS - No, I'm going to another question.
0:38:06 > 0:38:10Hold on. You've had a big say already, I'm just moving on.
0:38:10 > 0:38:11I know you've got a lot to say,
0:38:11 > 0:38:13but a lot of people have a lot to say.
0:38:13 > 0:38:15Mainly round this panel. All right.
0:38:15 > 0:38:18AUDIENCE MEMBER KEEPS SHOUTING I'm going to take a question...
0:38:18 > 0:38:23I'm going to take a question from Sue Selby, please.
0:38:23 > 0:38:27Will football ever be free of corruption and greed
0:38:27 > 0:38:30and return to being a true sport?
0:38:30 > 0:38:33When will football be free of corruption and greed
0:38:33 > 0:38:35and return to being a true sport?
0:38:35 > 0:38:37Bonnie Greer, you know all about that.
0:38:37 > 0:38:38I know all about it.
0:38:41 > 0:38:43- No?- I...
0:38:45 > 0:38:47It's, uh, as someone born in America,
0:38:47 > 0:38:52it is quite amazing how much money is in football.
0:38:52 > 0:38:54And I'm learning about it,
0:38:54 > 0:38:56I'm learning about the sport.
0:38:56 > 0:38:58I don't know when it's going to happen,
0:38:58 > 0:39:01but I tell you one thing - the amount of money
0:39:01 > 0:39:06that supporters pay and what they get in return,
0:39:06 > 0:39:07I think, is scandalous.
0:39:07 > 0:39:11- Absolutely.- I don't know how...
0:39:11 > 0:39:13APPLAUSE
0:39:16 > 0:39:22I don't know, you know... Somebody getting 350 grand a week,
0:39:22 > 0:39:27I don't get that. And I don't quite understand why the supporters...
0:39:27 > 0:39:29And, you know, I'm saying this with respect,
0:39:29 > 0:39:32but I don't understand why the supporters
0:39:32 > 0:39:34- haven't had some sort of revolt about this.- OK.
0:39:34 > 0:39:36Because it's outrageous.
0:39:36 > 0:39:39Let's be brief, I've got another question to come to. Priti Patel.
0:39:39 > 0:39:42Well, I think what we've seen this week is...
0:39:42 > 0:39:46You know, it's shameful, shameful beyond all belief, it really is.
0:39:46 > 0:39:48So obviously whoever now comes in
0:39:48 > 0:39:50as the new England manager in particular,
0:39:50 > 0:39:53they're going to have to really raise their standards.
0:39:53 > 0:39:56I think the FA in particular need to look to themselves,
0:39:56 > 0:40:00look to their practices and actually say, you know, "Enough is enough".
0:40:00 > 0:40:03I think it's just atrocious, what we've seen,
0:40:03 > 0:40:05but clearly there's a long way to go,
0:40:05 > 0:40:09because of the excessive pay that exists in football,
0:40:09 > 0:40:12because of the excessive fees that are associated
0:40:12 > 0:40:15with the transfer of footballers, with players,
0:40:15 > 0:40:19and quite frankly, it's a sport that is dominated by money.
0:40:19 > 0:40:21And nothing's going to change that overnight, it really isn't.
0:40:21 > 0:40:24So this will now be about ethics and standards
0:40:24 > 0:40:28and making sure that those that are at the top of the game in football
0:40:28 > 0:40:31are transparent and are good, strong role models.
0:40:31 > 0:40:33OK. Richard Burgon.
0:40:33 > 0:40:37Back when football was cleaner than clean and whiter than white,
0:40:37 > 0:40:39Leeds United was the best team in Britain.
0:40:39 > 0:40:43- APPLAUSE - Ohhh! Clean!
0:40:43 > 0:40:46In the '60s and '70s...
0:40:46 > 0:40:47But on a serious...
0:40:47 > 0:40:51On a serious... On a serious note...
0:40:51 > 0:40:52On a serious note,
0:40:52 > 0:40:55I agree with Priti on this issue.
0:40:55 > 0:40:58I think that football has been ruined by big money.
0:40:58 > 0:41:03I was born in 1980. I remember the time before the Premier League,
0:41:03 > 0:41:07and I think football has been ruined by big business, market forces,
0:41:07 > 0:41:08and fans being ripped off
0:41:08 > 0:41:11and working-class loyalties being taken for granted
0:41:11 > 0:41:13and exploited by big business.
0:41:13 > 0:41:15And actually, it mirrors, doesn't it,
0:41:15 > 0:41:17other aspects of our society.
0:41:17 > 0:41:19Irresponsibility at the top,
0:41:19 > 0:41:22where people are bending the rules for an extra buck,
0:41:22 > 0:41:25when they're the people who don't need any more money whatsoever.
0:41:25 > 0:41:26OK. You, sir.
0:41:26 > 0:41:29APPLAUSE Yeah, go on, then.
0:41:29 > 0:41:32It's reassuring to hear politicians talking that way
0:41:32 > 0:41:35because they've never, ever taken money, have they?
0:41:35 > 0:41:38Or taken things they shouldn't have taken, you know.
0:41:38 > 0:41:41I think it's rather patronising, again.
0:41:41 > 0:41:44And where would they rather the money went? Into the boardroom?
0:41:44 > 0:41:47- Rod Liddle.- Should that sponsorship and that income...
0:41:47 > 0:41:50I think football fans should be paying less for a season ticket
0:41:50 > 0:41:54and less to get into a match and shouldn't be subsidising people
0:41:54 > 0:41:57to accumulate half a million pounds in wages per week.
0:41:57 > 0:41:58I think it's obscene.
0:41:58 > 0:42:00In the last 15 years, the fans have
0:42:00 > 0:42:02been edged out of the game in the Premier League.
0:42:02 > 0:42:05I mean, it's now impossible, if you're a working-class bloke,
0:42:05 > 0:42:07to afford a season ticket at Arsenal, take your kids...
0:42:07 > 0:42:10You can't do it. The whole thing has been ruined.
0:42:10 > 0:42:13As Bonnie says, absolutely right, it's ruined by greed,
0:42:13 > 0:42:14and Priti said the same thing.
0:42:14 > 0:42:19Did you know that the taxpayer gives the Football Association
0:42:19 > 0:42:21£30 million a year?
0:42:21 > 0:42:23It's just... I found that out recently,
0:42:23 > 0:42:24and this is bizarre!
0:42:24 > 0:42:28It's like the taxpayer giving £30 million to Philip Green.
0:42:28 > 0:42:30I mean, it's just absurd.
0:42:30 > 0:42:33And it is... It is an appalling sight.
0:42:33 > 0:42:35The England team...
0:42:35 > 0:42:38Not that anyone gives a monkey's who manages the England team any more,
0:42:38 > 0:42:40I'd probably go for Anjem Chaudary, frankly.
0:42:40 > 0:42:42Er, I just...
0:42:42 > 0:42:45You know, it is a grotesque example.
0:42:45 > 0:42:47Will it ever be free, was the question, of corruption?
0:42:47 > 0:42:52At the top level, it won't be free, and more of this will happen.
0:42:52 > 0:42:54But if you want to see good football,
0:42:54 > 0:42:55go down a few divisions.
0:42:55 > 0:42:58The prices are better, and there's more fun,
0:42:58 > 0:42:59and you can mix with other fans.
0:42:59 > 0:43:02Steven Woolfe. APPLAUSE
0:43:02 > 0:43:05Steven Woolfe, and then we move on.
0:43:05 > 0:43:09I love football. I played semi-professionally till I was 35.
0:43:09 > 0:43:11I've got the bow legs, you know,
0:43:11 > 0:43:13that you can probably put a football right through.
0:43:13 > 0:43:16Last time I was on Question Time we were at Bolton,
0:43:16 > 0:43:18where my brother, Nathan Woolfe,
0:43:18 > 0:43:19had actually played for the club there
0:43:19 > 0:43:22and he was brought in by Sam Allardyce.
0:43:22 > 0:43:25But I never saw anything, nor did he, in terms of this at all.
0:43:25 > 0:43:27What has happened in this scandal
0:43:27 > 0:43:31has shown what is ultimately wrong about the modern game of football,
0:43:31 > 0:43:35and it is a time that we should look at this extensively
0:43:35 > 0:43:37and say, "Enough is enough".
0:43:37 > 0:43:39The fans have been pushed out.
0:43:39 > 0:43:41The teams have become multimillionaires
0:43:41 > 0:43:42surrounded by themselves.
0:43:42 > 0:43:44And I am actually sickened...
0:43:44 > 0:43:47I was one of those, I used to go to the paddock at Manchester United,
0:43:47 > 0:43:49up against the...
0:43:49 > 0:43:52And if you think that Leeds were a clean club in the '70s...
0:43:52 > 0:43:56The tackles that used to go in there were extensive...
0:43:56 > 0:43:58Let's not reminisce too much.
0:43:58 > 0:44:00What I am saying here...
0:44:00 > 0:44:03What is even sickening about this is the fact that the man
0:44:03 > 0:44:07has brought our country into disrepute is given a million pounds,
0:44:07 > 0:44:09can go on holiday to think about his future.
0:44:09 > 0:44:13How many of us would receive that money if we brought our country...?
0:44:13 > 0:44:16What I would say to him is bring that million pounds back
0:44:16 > 0:44:20and put it into some sort of scheme that helps bring children together.
0:44:20 > 0:44:21That's where your million pounds should be.
0:44:29 > 0:44:32Andrew... Andrew Sherwin, let's have your question, please.
0:44:32 > 0:44:37The Prime Minister as the leader of the opposition both benefited
0:44:37 > 0:44:40from a grammar school education,
0:44:40 > 0:44:43particularly in terms of social mobility.
0:44:43 > 0:44:48Why can't more low-income children with ability also benefit?
0:44:49 > 0:44:54- Richard Burgon.- Well, I'm against the Conservatives' plan on this,
0:44:54 > 0:44:56so it may be I disagree with Andrew
0:44:56 > 0:44:59on this particular question.
0:44:59 > 0:45:00I don't think we want to go back
0:45:00 > 0:45:03to a 1950s-style world of education
0:45:03 > 0:45:07and segregation where young children
0:45:07 > 0:45:11are called failures or successes at the age of 11.
0:45:11 > 0:45:13It does scar some people for life.
0:45:13 > 0:45:17And the evidence shows that grammar schools actually don't increase
0:45:17 > 0:45:19social mobility whatsoever.
0:45:19 > 0:45:23I think we really need an education policy
0:45:23 > 0:45:25so that everyone gets a good quality of education
0:45:25 > 0:45:27and so we're not separating our young people off.
0:45:27 > 0:45:30What kind of message would it send to your children if you're saying,
0:45:30 > 0:45:33"You're not allowed to go to the school with your friends
0:45:33 > 0:45:34"because you didn't pass this exam"?
0:45:34 > 0:45:36I think it's deeply, deeply divisive
0:45:36 > 0:45:39and I don't think it's that popular amongst Conservative MPs either
0:45:39 > 0:45:41so I think it's a real failure of judgment
0:45:41 > 0:45:44on the Prime Minister's part to bring this policy forward.
0:45:44 > 0:45:46Andrew? Do you want to reply to that?
0:45:46 > 0:45:49Right, I think arguing about grammar schools in terms of what
0:45:49 > 0:45:53happened in the 1950s is a bit like arguing about what happened
0:45:53 > 0:45:56in the football in this country in the 1950s and '60s.
0:45:56 > 0:45:59I think that's rather irrelevant.
0:45:59 > 0:46:04If you look at what grammar schools can offer now in terms of, erm...
0:46:04 > 0:46:10access into higher education, social mobility, it is there.
0:46:10 > 0:46:13The problem is that not enough children
0:46:13 > 0:46:17from lower economic backgrounds get access into grammar schools.
0:46:17 > 0:46:21That's why there isn't the social mobility that you're talking about.
0:46:21 > 0:46:24- Priti Patel...- One of the reasons there's not social mobility
0:46:24 > 0:46:26is because it bankrupts people to go to university
0:46:26 > 0:46:29and so we need to bring back student grants, for example.
0:46:29 > 0:46:31No, come back to grammar schools. Stick with that. Priti Patel.
0:46:31 > 0:46:36I think we need to look at this in the wider context of schools and,
0:46:36 > 0:46:37you know, much of what we've been
0:46:37 > 0:46:39doing over the last six years,
0:46:39 > 0:46:41getting more children into good
0:46:41 > 0:46:42and outstanding schools.
0:46:42 > 0:46:43That is the right thing to do.
0:46:43 > 0:46:46That's been a big focus for our Government and as a result,
0:46:46 > 0:46:48there are now 1.4 million more children
0:46:48 > 0:46:50in good or outstanding schools.
0:46:50 > 0:46:54But the reality is there are something like 1.25 million children
0:46:54 > 0:46:58that don't have access to a good or outstanding school place
0:46:58 > 0:47:02and rightly so, we are saying that the selective school system,
0:47:02 > 0:47:05grammar schools or faith schools,
0:47:05 > 0:47:07should actually be part of that provision.
0:47:07 > 0:47:11They should have the opportunity now to work with other schools
0:47:11 > 0:47:14that are underperforming to create more good and outstanding
0:47:14 > 0:47:18school places and that's across the country and that means new,
0:47:18 > 0:47:20diverse ways of working, new partnerships and,
0:47:20 > 0:47:24to Richard's point, this isn't about going back to the 1950s.
0:47:24 > 0:47:27We are not going back to a binary system that existed
0:47:27 > 0:47:28previously of, you know,
0:47:28 > 0:47:32failure or selection in that sort of very crude term,
0:47:32 > 0:47:35this is about a new approach to education,
0:47:35 > 0:47:38one that gives more parental choice,
0:47:38 > 0:47:40one that also puts headteachers back into control
0:47:40 > 0:47:43where they can actually work with neighbouring schools
0:47:43 > 0:47:46and I say this as someone that has been a governor of a grammar school
0:47:46 > 0:47:51in Essex where we have a very proud tradition of grammar schools
0:47:51 > 0:47:53but also grammar schools that work within the community
0:47:53 > 0:47:58and actually work with other local schools to create exactly that -
0:47:58 > 0:47:59good and outstanding school places
0:47:59 > 0:48:02- for children of disadvantaged backgrounds.- Very well.
0:48:02 > 0:48:04And I think that is commendable and we should have more of that.
0:48:04 > 0:48:08The man on the left there at the back. Yes.
0:48:08 > 0:48:11I've, erm... I've been a governor of both a grammar school
0:48:11 > 0:48:13and a secondary school here in Lincolnshire.
0:48:13 > 0:48:14We have this system, we have the 11 Plus.
0:48:14 > 0:48:16I think it's a very successful system.
0:48:16 > 0:48:18My children have been through it.
0:48:18 > 0:48:20And the one issue that worries me about...
0:48:20 > 0:48:22When you say your children have been through it,
0:48:22 > 0:48:24- do they come out all right the other side?- Yes.
0:48:24 > 0:48:27I think so. I think so. I hope they do as well, but I think so.
0:48:27 > 0:48:31The one issue which concerns me about this
0:48:31 > 0:48:36is the whole issue of the 11 Plus and how it is positioned
0:48:36 > 0:48:39as a pass and fail and we need to sort that out.
0:48:39 > 0:48:41If we go back to the 1960s and '70s,
0:48:41 > 0:48:44it was much more that you were academically qualified
0:48:44 > 0:48:46or you were vocationally qualified
0:48:46 > 0:48:50and I would like to see that as more of a fork in the road
0:48:50 > 0:48:51as opposed to a pass and fail.
0:48:51 > 0:48:53Rod Liddle.
0:48:53 > 0:48:54APPLAUSE
0:48:57 > 0:48:59I think I'd agree with that 100%.
0:48:59 > 0:49:01I'm in favour of selection
0:49:01 > 0:49:02in some form.
0:49:04 > 0:49:06I'd rather have a comprehensive school
0:49:06 > 0:49:07which was rigorously streamed,
0:49:07 > 0:49:09if I'm absolutely honest,
0:49:09 > 0:49:11but I don't trust the comprehensive schools at the moment the way
0:49:11 > 0:49:14that they're being run to do that rigorous streaming
0:49:14 > 0:49:16and to value the very top.
0:49:16 > 0:49:19I do feel a bit misted, not by nostalgia about
0:49:19 > 0:49:22the '50s and '60s because it was a time of social mobility and
0:49:22 > 0:49:25grammar schools did play into that even though many working-class kids
0:49:25 > 0:49:29got stuck in a secondary modern which wasn't a very good school,
0:49:29 > 0:49:32some got through. More than they do now.
0:49:32 > 0:49:35However, I also live in a county
0:49:35 > 0:49:39where there are grammar schools and I am in absolute agreement
0:49:39 > 0:49:43with Richard that it does not facilitate social mobility now.
0:49:43 > 0:49:46It makes it much, much worse.
0:49:46 > 0:49:49There is no question there are more private schools as a consequence.
0:49:49 > 0:49:52It tends to be the most affluent kids who get into those
0:49:52 > 0:49:55grammar schools because the parents have the money to get the tutors
0:49:55 > 0:49:57to get them into private schools before that.
0:49:57 > 0:50:01Absolutely no question about it, so I am in favour of selection,
0:50:01 > 0:50:03but I don't agree with the 11 Plus at all, by the way.
0:50:03 > 0:50:06- The woman up there and then I'll come to you. Yes.- Erm...
0:50:06 > 0:50:09I went to a grammar school and my husband works at the grammar school,
0:50:09 > 0:50:11the boys' grammar school here in Boston
0:50:11 > 0:50:12and I'm very pro-grammar school.
0:50:12 > 0:50:15But I want to know what are the Conservative Party going to do
0:50:15 > 0:50:17for those who aren't as academically minded?
0:50:17 > 0:50:20- Where's the provision for them? - All right.
0:50:20 > 0:50:23Varied used to be provision. The technical schools as well,
0:50:23 > 0:50:27it used to be a tripartite system and that was a better idea.
0:50:27 > 0:50:28Because there is no provision now,
0:50:28 > 0:50:30so if bringing in extra grammar schools,
0:50:30 > 0:50:32if there's no provision now, there's certainly not going
0:50:32 > 0:50:35to be any provision if we start dividing them up, is there?
0:50:35 > 0:50:36Just briefly, Priti.
0:50:36 > 0:50:41Well, this is the point about having more of a diverse education system.
0:50:41 > 0:50:43This isn't just about having grammar schools,
0:50:43 > 0:50:47this is about growing the places, the number of good and outstanding
0:50:47 > 0:50:51school places, but importantly, giving children new opportunities.
0:50:51 > 0:50:56So vocational education has grown and grown over the last six years.
0:50:56 > 0:50:59You know, we have something like just under three million more people
0:50:59 > 0:51:02in apprenticeships as well and that's what this is about.
0:51:02 > 0:51:06You know, having an education system that is diverse and actually
0:51:06 > 0:51:08that supports everyone of every ability
0:51:08 > 0:51:12so that they can get on in life and I think that's incredibly important.
0:51:12 > 0:51:14This is my point. We're not going back to the 1950s.
0:51:14 > 0:51:16This is not the binary system that we had in the past.
0:51:16 > 0:51:19So you're not going back to what David Cameron criticised
0:51:19 > 0:51:21- when he was leading the opposition? - This is not...
0:51:21 > 0:51:22When he said, "There's a kind of hopelessness
0:51:22 > 0:51:24"about bringing back grammar schools."
0:51:24 > 0:51:28- No, this is not about recreating the old system.- All right.
0:51:28 > 0:51:29Bonnie Greer, then I'll come to you.
0:51:29 > 0:51:33Can I just make an immigrant's observation if I may?
0:51:33 > 0:51:35I'm... It always fascinates me,
0:51:35 > 0:51:38it seems that the country
0:51:38 > 0:51:41is obsessed with selection.
0:51:41 > 0:51:43I don't understand it.
0:51:43 > 0:51:50Why can't everybody - everybody - have access to top level education
0:51:50 > 0:51:55in the most important language on the face of the Earth, English?
0:51:55 > 0:51:59Why can't they have the best education possible in mathematics?
0:51:59 > 0:52:02Why can't everybody have that?
0:52:02 > 0:52:03Why can't it be...?
0:52:03 > 0:52:06APPLAUSE
0:52:06 > 0:52:09Why can't we make...?
0:52:09 > 0:52:13Why can't we also make teaching,
0:52:13 > 0:52:18which is one of the noblest things a human being can do, let's face it,
0:52:18 > 0:52:20put it at such a rank
0:52:20 > 0:52:23that not only we support the teachers who are there,
0:52:23 > 0:52:26but we bring in the best people who want to teach?
0:52:26 > 0:52:31I think we need to build schools that everybody can go to
0:52:31 > 0:52:34and then if you want to... have to have selection,
0:52:34 > 0:52:36at some point, please not 11 years old.
0:52:36 > 0:52:38But at some point down the line,
0:52:38 > 0:52:41people can make a decision about what they want to do,
0:52:41 > 0:52:43but right now, we need people,
0:52:43 > 0:52:47we need children to learn to speak English.
0:52:47 > 0:52:50Everybody, not just immigrant children, but people born here.
0:52:50 > 0:52:52You, sir, in the second row.
0:52:52 > 0:52:55I am a former secondary maths school teacher.
0:52:55 > 0:52:59Erm... From what I observed in education from teaching...
0:53:01 > 0:53:03..each Government decides to change it
0:53:03 > 0:53:05because they're on a sort of bandwagon.
0:53:05 > 0:53:08It doesn't matter whether it's a grammar school
0:53:08 > 0:53:09or the academy schools,
0:53:09 > 0:53:12are you achieving standards?
0:53:12 > 0:53:16Now, Rod mentioned something very important earlier -
0:53:16 > 0:53:17streaming.
0:53:17 > 0:53:19I've taught in such schools.
0:53:20 > 0:53:21Well, it was called banding.
0:53:21 > 0:53:24And I have seen pupils...
0:53:24 > 0:53:26Basically, what happens is,
0:53:26 > 0:53:31if you take the average-sized school you've got, say, six sets in a year.
0:53:31 > 0:53:34You basically swap the top two sets around
0:53:34 > 0:53:37so you've got mixed ability in pairs, if you're with me.
0:53:37 > 0:53:45And the weaker pupils are improved, achieve very good grades,
0:53:45 > 0:53:47by the peer pressure.
0:53:47 > 0:53:50Mixed ability teaching literally across the year,
0:53:50 > 0:53:53from what I could see, was a nightmare to try and teach.
0:53:53 > 0:53:55It does work.
0:53:55 > 0:53:57I don't believe in grammar schools.
0:53:57 > 0:54:00I went to a public school. Did it make a lot of difference to me?
0:54:00 > 0:54:01- I don't think it did.- OK.
0:54:01 > 0:54:05I'd rather have gone to a good comprehensive school.
0:54:05 > 0:54:06Stephen Woolfe.
0:54:06 > 0:54:11For many families, particularly those on low incomes,
0:54:11 > 0:54:14poverty is a grinding chore that you have to go through,
0:54:14 > 0:54:16when you're working long hours
0:54:16 > 0:54:17to provide for your family,
0:54:17 > 0:54:18pay the bills.
0:54:18 > 0:54:19One of the things
0:54:19 > 0:54:21that keeps yourself hopeful
0:54:21 > 0:54:24is when you look at your children and say to them
0:54:24 > 0:54:27that you can actually give them a better life ahead of them.
0:54:27 > 0:54:29The hope that you can give them education
0:54:29 > 0:54:33so that they can come here and sit on this platform like
0:54:33 > 0:54:36so many of us, or get a good job as a teacher like you, sir.
0:54:36 > 0:54:38But for many in our country, as Rod has said,
0:54:38 > 0:54:41who have come off the council estates as I've done,
0:54:41 > 0:54:43the social mobility has declined dramatically.
0:54:43 > 0:54:44Not just because I said it.
0:54:44 > 0:54:48Organisations like the OECD or the ONS.
0:54:48 > 0:54:52There was huge amounts of social mobility in the 1950s and '60s
0:54:52 > 0:54:56and the grammar school system at that time wasn't perfect.
0:54:56 > 0:54:58And I made it clear that in Ukip's policies,
0:54:58 > 0:55:01we had to ensure that we'd got social mobility to move once more,
0:55:01 > 0:55:03and that's why I've been a huge backer
0:55:03 > 0:55:05of the grammar schools. It helped me.
0:55:05 > 0:55:06I got out of my council estate.
0:55:06 > 0:55:08I became a lawyer. I was able to go to university.
0:55:08 > 0:55:11I sit here today very proud of my nation and very proud of the
0:55:11 > 0:55:13people who have made this nation and the ability,
0:55:13 > 0:55:17but what I have seen is social mobility declining here and
0:55:17 > 0:55:19I'm heartened by Theresa May's view
0:55:19 > 0:55:22that we don't go back to an education system
0:55:22 > 0:55:24of the '50s with segregation,
0:55:24 > 0:55:28that there is chances for people to come in at later stages,
0:55:28 > 0:55:31but more importantly, the funding is going across the whole country
0:55:31 > 0:55:35to many more schools to give them many more opportunities.
0:55:35 > 0:55:37APPLAUSE
0:55:37 > 0:55:40One final point?
0:55:40 > 0:55:42There is nothing wrong with selection.
0:55:42 > 0:55:44We've just had an amazing Olympics
0:55:44 > 0:55:46where our sports people are selected and taken off to train...
0:55:46 > 0:55:47- BONNIE:- It's not education.
0:55:47 > 0:55:50- RICHARD:- We shouldn't have survival of the fittest in education.
0:55:50 > 0:55:52- Hang on.- ROD:- It's not survival of the fittest.
0:55:52 > 0:55:54When you talked about segregation in the 1950s,
0:55:54 > 0:55:57the only segregation in education in this country at the moment
0:55:57 > 0:55:59is you get into the best schools if you can afford
0:55:59 > 0:56:02- to get into the best areas with the best...- Exactly.
0:56:02 > 0:56:05And your Government but that policy in place.
0:56:05 > 0:56:09And what I will say finally is we have to encourage other people
0:56:09 > 0:56:12who don't believe, that don't want to go to university.
0:56:12 > 0:56:14There are great talents in this country.
0:56:14 > 0:56:16Why is it that we can look at Germany and they have great
0:56:16 > 0:56:18technical colleges and believe in the engineers?
0:56:18 > 0:56:21If we're going to have this policy of grammar schools,
0:56:21 > 0:56:23we've got to have the technical colleges that go with it.
0:56:23 > 0:56:25We've got to have the colleges that work for sport.
0:56:25 > 0:56:28We've got to have those that work for engineers.
0:56:28 > 0:56:31We've got to make sure our education is for all, not those,
0:56:31 > 0:56:33and leave no-one behind.
0:56:33 > 0:56:36You, sir, with the spectacles and the blue shirt. Yes.
0:56:36 > 0:56:39I'd have to agree with Stephen and Rod on this.
0:56:39 > 0:56:43It's almost like there's some kind of stigma against segregation.
0:56:43 > 0:56:46Obviously, that sounds quite bad in a sense, but it's like,
0:56:46 > 0:56:49if you're going to a grammar school like I do, for example,
0:56:49 > 0:56:52I think some kids have different aspirations for life
0:56:52 > 0:56:56and I think the state school system, at least from what I've seen,
0:56:56 > 0:56:59it's more focused on getting the Ds to the Cs rather than the
0:56:59 > 0:57:03- Bs to the As or the A*s and it's like people...- Yes.
0:57:03 > 0:57:07I think it works more efficiently if you specialise it in that manner.
0:57:07 > 0:57:10- Very briefly, Rod, you agree with him?- I agree entirely.
0:57:10 > 0:57:12I think it's a huge problem.
0:57:12 > 0:57:15I mean, I do have a problem with the idea of the 11 Plus.
0:57:15 > 0:57:20I think it's an iniquitous and very stressful exam and cruel, frankly.
0:57:20 > 0:57:23But the 11 Plus, the 12 Plus, the 13 Plus?
0:57:23 > 0:57:27Yeah, yeah, I mean... Yes. I would...
0:57:27 > 0:57:31Or you can do it through SATs tests, of course. Which you can do.
0:57:31 > 0:57:32OK.
0:57:32 > 0:57:33I'm sorry, our time's up.
0:57:34 > 0:57:37All the hands go down again.
0:57:37 > 0:57:39It's an hour we have, and we've used it.
0:57:39 > 0:57:41Erm...
0:57:41 > 0:57:42Next week, we're going to be
0:57:42 > 0:57:44in Neath in South Wales.
0:57:44 > 0:57:46The only person I know
0:57:46 > 0:57:47who is coming so far
0:57:47 > 0:57:48is Chuka Umunna.
0:57:48 > 0:57:49But maybe that will be enough
0:57:49 > 0:57:50to bring in our audience.
0:57:50 > 0:57:52And the week after,
0:57:52 > 0:57:53we're going to be at Hendon
0:57:53 > 0:57:55in the... In the air museum
0:57:55 > 0:57:56I think, in North London.
0:57:56 > 0:57:59So come to Neath, come to Hendon.
0:57:59 > 0:58:00Go to the website,
0:58:00 > 0:58:01you can call the number...
0:58:04 > 0:58:07If you're hearing this on 5 Live,
0:58:07 > 0:58:08the debate, as you know, goes on
0:58:08 > 0:58:11on Question Time Extra Time.
0:58:11 > 0:58:14But here, it's my job to thank our panel very much indeed
0:58:14 > 0:58:17and to thank all of you who came to Boston to take part.
0:58:17 > 0:58:21Until next week, next Thursday, from Question Time, goodnight.