:00:00. > :00:20.Conservative Secretary of State for Wales, Alun Cairns.
:00:21. > :00:25.The Labour MP who ran briefly for the leadership of his party
:00:26. > :00:31.Leader of Plaid Cymru, Leanne Wood.
:00:32. > :00:35.Ukip's leader in Wales, Neil Hamilton.
:00:36. > :00:39.And the comedian who made his name on Mock The Week and now presents
:00:40. > :00:47.a podcast taking a sideways look at politics, Andy Parsons.
:00:48. > :01:12.You can get very muched in the debate on Facebook, Twitter, texting
:01:13. > :01:20.83981 will get you there. Natalie Matthews, please? After the events
:01:21. > :01:28.in Strasbourg and the resignation of Diane Davies, is there a future for
:01:29. > :01:38.Ukip -- Diane James? There was an altercation leaving Steven Woolfe of
:01:39. > :01:41.course in hospital? Chuka Umunna? I am glad Steven Woolfe is OK.
:01:42. > :01:48.Whatever political differences we may have; we are all human beings
:01:49. > :01:53.and I'm really glad he's OK, conscious and smiling. In terms of
:01:54. > :01:57.Ukip and its future, what is its point going forward? Neil might have
:01:58. > :02:03.something to say about that, but it's achieved the aim it set out to
:02:04. > :02:07.achieve as a party. It wants to go beyond that and create the kind of
:02:08. > :02:10.picture of Britain it wanted to create at the last general election.
:02:11. > :02:15.I think that would be highly undesirable. Flat rate income taxes
:02:16. > :02:20.that give the top 1% a huge tax break whilst everyone else suffers.
:02:21. > :02:23.I don't like that. More private provision, perhaps private insurance
:02:24. > :02:28.in the National Health Service, I don't particularly like that. And
:02:29. > :02:32.whilst of course I think we all would acknowledge that migration
:02:33. > :02:36.foes and population change pose challenges to any country, I dislike
:02:37. > :02:40.a lot of the narrative that comes out of Ukip which tends often to
:02:41. > :02:45.suggest that all of our problems as a country are down to immigrants
:02:46. > :02:49.when nothing could be further from the truth. We know you are opposed
:02:50. > :02:54.to their views, but do you think they're collapsing? Well, who knows
:02:55. > :02:57.what their future holds. I think the bigger problem for them,
:02:58. > :03:02.notwithstanding the leadership, is what is the point of Ukip and, you
:03:03. > :03:07.know, if the point of Ukip is a picture of Britain that I've
:03:08. > :03:09.painted, them offering at the general election, I'm afraid I don't
:03:10. > :03:11.think that's something most of us would want.
:03:12. > :03:17.APPLAUSE. Leanne Wood?
:03:18. > :03:21.I think this could go one of two ways now. They could either
:03:22. > :03:25.disappear because they have achieved their political goal, or they could
:03:26. > :03:33.become the anti-immigration party along the lines of the French front
:03:34. > :03:39.national, that kind of right-wing party that we see right throughout
:03:40. > :03:45.Europe. But this to me shows that really at base, this is a party full
:03:46. > :03:51.of thugs. Fighting in politics is just not on. It's not the way to
:03:52. > :03:58.carry out your political disagreements. I would say, you
:03:59. > :04:03.know, it follows on from a referendum campaign where Ukip put
:04:04. > :04:07.forward some pretty strong arguments and I think encouraged some of the
:04:08. > :04:13.worst aspects of politics to come out in people and I'm referring
:04:14. > :04:20.there to statements that could be referred to as being racist. We have
:04:21. > :04:25.seen a rise in hate crime since Brexit. Of course, it fits in well
:04:26. > :04:31.with the in-fighting that's gone in the National Assembly and the hints
:04:32. > :04:40.of misogyny we have seen there. The leader referred to me and my
:04:41. > :04:43.colleague Kirsty Williams as political concubines, that's
:04:44. > :04:48.prostitute. You are referring to Neil Hamilton saying this? I am,
:04:49. > :04:51.yes. The speech in the National Assembly, he referred to sexist
:04:52. > :04:56.language like that and it's just not on in politics. When you said the
:04:57. > :05:03.party was full of thugs, somebody Houlted out "how dare you". I resent
:05:04. > :05:10.being call add thug by a party that by its very name is a racist party.
:05:11. > :05:15.Excuse me? Yes you are, please Cymru the party of Wales, Wales for the
:05:16. > :05:22.Welsh, what about the rest of it? If I did it in England, English for the
:05:23. > :05:27.English, I would be in jail. I resent being called a thug. People
:05:28. > :05:31.who've thrown punches in Strasbourg today is that thuggish behaviour. I
:05:32. > :05:37.resent you suggesting I come from a racist party. My party is not a
:05:38. > :05:40.racist party. We are outward looking, inclusive, internationalist
:05:41. > :05:45.and in fact we are the only party in Wales who's putting forward a
:05:46. > :05:49.proposal for Brexit which is outward looking. Just the week before
:05:50. > :05:54.last... Leanne, you've made your point. I've got to bring other
:05:55. > :05:59.people in. The woman there in purple?
:06:00. > :06:04.I have to disagree with Leanne. I find that Plaid Cymru are
:06:05. > :06:15.anti-English language totally, I've seen it myself in my local village
:06:16. > :06:19.where they're getting rid of the English in a mainstream school. We
:06:20. > :06:25.seem to be going down a different road. I've never had any trouble
:06:26. > :06:30.from Ukip. It's only fair we hear from Neil Hamilton. You've no doubt
:06:31. > :06:34.heard today that the financier of Ukip says that unless you leave the
:06:35. > :06:39.party He's going to leave Ukip and won't be supporting it because he
:06:40. > :06:45.thinks you behave disgustingly spewing out bile he said today? It's
:06:46. > :06:53.very dangerous when elected politicians, particularly their
:06:54. > :07:01.leaders of other parties insult millions of those who vote for their
:07:02. > :07:07.competitors. We elected seven members of the assembly here in
:07:08. > :07:12.Wales only in May. We were the prime movers behind the Brexit vote in
:07:13. > :07:17.which the majority of the British people voted to leave the European
:07:18. > :07:22.Union. In Leanne's own constituency of the Rhondda, I think I'm right in
:07:23. > :07:27.saying from memory 56% of her own constituents voted against what she
:07:28. > :07:33.wanted which was to stay in the EU. To call members of Ukip in their
:07:34. > :07:38.tens of thousands a party of thugs I think is absolutely disgraceful.
:07:39. > :07:43.What was that fight over then? Because two people got into a fight
:07:44. > :07:48.which they should certainly never have done so, in contravention of
:07:49. > :07:52.Ukip's own rules and I anticipated this question of course this
:07:53. > :07:55.evening. Our own rules say, all elected members are expected to act
:07:56. > :07:59.at all times in a manner which reflects positively on the party in
:08:00. > :08:03.personal and professional life, elected members are expected to be
:08:04. > :08:07.aware that by virtue of their elected position, their actions are
:08:08. > :08:12.subject to greater public scrutiny and their bad behaviour can bring
:08:13. > :08:15.the party into disrepute. All that is fairly obvious isn't it? You
:08:16. > :08:22.hardly need a ruling to tell people not to hit each other? I presume
:08:23. > :08:31.disciplinary action will be taken once an inquiry is carried out and
:08:32. > :08:36.due process is observed and if it proves that somebody was guilty of
:08:37. > :08:41.throwing a punch and causings some actual bodily harm, then that's more
:08:42. > :08:48.a matter for the police in a way than for a political party to decide
:08:49. > :08:54.upon. That is undoubtedly an action which could result in one or both of
:08:55. > :08:58.these being expelled from the party. We do not condone this behaviour and
:08:59. > :09:02.it's certainly not typical of our party. I've been in Ukip 15 years
:09:03. > :09:07.and never seen a fight of this kind before. What you just said is very
:09:08. > :09:10.interesting because you are talking about Steven Woolfe, you said
:09:11. > :09:16.earlier on the BBC, I think Steven picked a fight, right. I didn't say
:09:17. > :09:20.that. Picked a fight and came off worse is what you said? Yes. You did
:09:21. > :09:28.say that? APPLAUSE.
:09:29. > :09:32.I was asked. . ... I'm not trying to score a point off you. The point is
:09:33. > :09:36.you are clearly referring to Steven Woolfe front runner to be leader and
:09:37. > :09:41.you are saying if that is true he can't stand as leader and you know
:09:42. > :09:45.the supporters, Nigel Farage and Erin Banks want that side of Ukip as
:09:46. > :09:50.a leader, so if that doesn't happen... I've read the rule, I've
:09:51. > :09:53.read it out to the audience this evening and in normal circumstances
:09:54. > :09:57.what would happen in a disciplinary case of that kind, there are those
:09:58. > :10:02.who're involved in such a fight, they would be suspended from the
:10:03. > :10:06.party pending an inquiry. Are you calling for a police investigation?
:10:07. > :10:10.This occurred in France, I don't know what the rules are. Do you
:10:11. > :10:14.think there should be one? If it's a case of actual bodily harm, it's a
:10:15. > :10:20.matter for the police. He probably won't be able to remember what he
:10:21. > :10:27.asked for tomorrow. That's a trivial response of course, back to the
:10:28. > :10:33.serious matter. The question was, is there a future for Ukip and one
:10:34. > :10:39.isolated event wholly to be not be tolerated is not representative of
:10:40. > :10:44.Ukip as a party which is now a major player, particularly in Wales and...
:10:45. > :10:49.The leader standing down, Diane James after 18 days as leader of
:10:50. > :10:53.your party, what is that about? I can't explain that. I didn't vote
:10:54. > :10:58.for her. I thought she was not suited to the role and I was very
:10:59. > :11:04.surprised she put herself forward. But we are not the only party which
:11:05. > :11:07.sometimes elects an inadequate leader, are we?
:11:08. > :11:14.APPLAUSE. Andy Parsons? Well, obviously Nigel
:11:15. > :11:19.Farage is back, isn't he? He's goat a lot of things to cope with at the
:11:20. > :11:23.moment. He's obviously supposed to be advising Donald Trump. How Donald
:11:24. > :11:30.is going to cope without him, I've no idea. And we all quite surprised
:11:31. > :11:33.that he's not on this panel tonight. We were expecting him on Question
:11:34. > :11:38.Time, he's been on often enough. But the reason he was keen to step back
:11:39. > :11:41.in and say I am leader is he was worried Neil Hamilton might claim
:11:42. > :11:47.that he was in fact the leader when Diane James stepped down.
:11:48. > :11:52.APPLAUSE. The woman at the back there in pink?
:11:53. > :11:55.No, there is no future for Ukip because children are our future and
:11:56. > :12:00.I don't think they are going to be voting Ukip. Simple as. No future.
:12:01. > :12:06.OK. APPLAUSE.
:12:07. > :12:10.Alun Cairns? I think we should all be grateful that Steven Woolfe
:12:11. > :12:15.appears to be OK and hopefully he'll be discharged from hospital. I'm not
:12:16. > :12:21.necessarily best placed to answer how Ukip members or activists feel,
:12:22. > :12:24.but there is a serious job of work to do and on June 23rd we voted in
:12:25. > :12:29.the referendum to leave the European Union. There are serious challenges
:12:30. > :12:33.and it's the Government's job to focus and get the best deal for the
:12:34. > :12:36.whole of the United Kingdom and delivering on that instruction that
:12:37. > :12:40.came from the public. Ukip will have represented a significant number of
:12:41. > :12:43.voters in the assembly elections and general elections. Those people will
:12:44. > :12:47.feel let down as a result of the sort of antics that we are seeing by
:12:48. > :12:51.the leadership and by the politicians. And I think that it's
:12:52. > :12:54.up to the Government to act in a responsible way to continue that
:12:55. > :13:00.positive agenda, acting on the instruction and I hope that other
:13:01. > :13:07.part itses will play their part too. The woman over there, on Ukip, then
:13:08. > :13:11.you? I wanted to come back to the original question, is there any need
:13:12. > :13:16.for Ukip and I think there will be unless the Government starts
:13:17. > :13:19.building more social housing and there are better paid jobs for
:13:20. > :13:22.people because people are dissatisfied in Wales. There are a
:13:23. > :13:28.lot of places in Wales and England that have suffered due to the death
:13:29. > :13:35.of manufacturing. We may come on to a bit more of that in a moment. You,
:13:36. > :13:40.Sir, in the pink? I think Labour's inaction on immigration will always
:13:41. > :13:44.ensure there is a Ukip. Jeremy Corbyn's door's wide-open. That
:13:45. > :13:48.policy will backfire and fuel Ukip. APPLAUSE.
:13:49. > :13:53.You at the back? The job is done. The minister summed it up there.
:13:54. > :13:57.It's time to act, time for action now. We voted to leave the EU, that
:13:58. > :14:05.meant working with people for Ukip. So I think the Government and Ukip
:14:06. > :14:08.need to work together to take us out of the EU. At the end of the day
:14:09. > :14:18.that,'s a Conservative obvious there. On the left? Steady on. Well
:14:19. > :14:26.he was an MP as I understand it. He was. Can I just confirm, that was a
:14:27. > :14:30.long time ago. My point is, we need to work together now. I'm a civil
:14:31. > :14:33.servant and I'm not sure where we are going with this now and it's for
:14:34. > :14:40.the Government to take action now and get us out of Europe.
:14:41. > :14:49.The person at the back. Ukip has a two word manifesto. Stop
:14:50. > :14:56.immigration. How hard is it to elect a new leader to put that forwards?
:14:57. > :15:03.Do you approve of those two words? I do not approve of Ukip in any way,
:15:04. > :15:03.shape or form. I think they are a shocking outfit.
:15:04. > :15:09.APPLAUSE I would like to remind the British
:15:10. > :15:20.audience that Ukip was the party that used Nazi propaganda in the EU
:15:21. > :15:23.referendum. It was shocking. If this is the future of not just British
:15:24. > :15:26.politics but British political discourse and debate, we have a very
:15:27. > :15:30.bleak future. APPLAUSE
:15:31. > :15:36.I am going to go on because we have other subjects to talk about, some
:15:37. > :15:39.of which might raise Ukip policy as well.
:15:40. > :15:43.We're in the RAF Museum, Hendon, North London next week
:15:44. > :16:00.Come and speak your mind. I'll give details at the end.
:16:01. > :16:09.Right now, a question from Lucy Lock. Are Amber Rudd's proposals for
:16:10. > :16:13.companies to disclose family foreign workers they employ encouraging
:16:14. > :16:17.xenophobia and racism in the UK? There has been a lot of criticism of
:16:18. > :16:23.what Amber Rudd said at the party conference and what she has said
:16:24. > :16:28.since then. Alun Cairns, is it right to ask companies to disclose how
:16:29. > :16:32.many foreign workers they employ? Let me say that immigration has
:16:33. > :16:35.brought huge benefits to our nation. They have benefited the economy,
:16:36. > :16:41.public services, they have diversify them benefited our culture.
:16:42. > :16:46.Immigration is a positive thing. I think where people get naturally
:16:47. > :16:50.worried, and rightly so, is where immigration is uncontrolled.
:16:51. > :16:52.Therefore, the pressures that come about on public services, the
:16:53. > :16:56.competition for Labour in many areas where maybe those companies are not
:16:57. > :17:00.fulfilling the obligations they have in order to offer opportunities to
:17:01. > :17:06.working people here and across the rest of the United Kingdom. What
:17:07. > :17:09.Amber Rudd has talked about is launching a consultation later this
:17:10. > :17:18.year to see exactly what else can be done for non-EU migrants, to see
:17:19. > :17:21.what else we can do. Flushing out firms who don't have more skilled
:17:22. > :17:25.Labour forces? Forcing them to list how many foreign workers they
:17:26. > :17:31.employ? That is what she said. Is that what you want to see? That will
:17:32. > :17:39.be part of the consultation. You agree? If I can answer the point, I
:17:40. > :17:44.will explain. I am asking the point. In the last parliament we closed 875
:17:45. > :17:48.bogus colleges who were offering courses to students that did not
:17:49. > :17:54.effectively exist. People would come, register and then never follow
:17:55. > :17:58.up the course. At that time, we were called to be extreme because we took
:17:59. > :18:02.strong action against those colleges. Now, that is accepted as
:18:03. > :18:07.generally good practice because of the positive impact that would have
:18:08. > :18:11.had on curbing immigration. And immigration from outside the EU has
:18:12. > :18:16.fallen by 13%. But we need to look at what else we need to do.
:18:17. > :18:20.Potentially publishing the sort of things you have talked about, which
:18:21. > :18:26.already happens in benighted States, employers talk about the proportion
:18:27. > :18:30.of employees that they have from outside the US and from within the
:18:31. > :18:33.US. That will be part of the consultation we will happily engage
:18:34. > :18:38.in with employers and they will be able to respond. Reading between the
:18:39. > :18:43.lines, you approve, you say it happens in the United States and you
:18:44. > :18:46.would like to see it happen here. Absolutely, but I want businesses to
:18:47. > :18:48.engage to share how they feel they can better meet the needs of
:18:49. > :18:51.ordinary working people who feel they are not getting a fair deal,
:18:52. > :18:57.not getting the benefits that employers are offering. They feel it
:18:58. > :19:00.is a privileged few that are benefiting, those who are on the
:19:01. > :19:03.yachts and those who are earning millions of pounds from pension
:19:04. > :19:06.funds. We need to change the policies that work for ordinary
:19:07. > :19:14.working people so they are getting a fair crack of the whip. Chuka
:19:15. > :19:18.Umunna. The question was, are the proposals fanning the flames of
:19:19. > :19:24.xenophobia and racism? I would say certainly the headlines definitely
:19:25. > :19:27.do that. I think this was a shocking suggestion, not least because I
:19:28. > :19:31.actually asked Amber Rudd and her department how many EU citizens, how
:19:32. > :19:35.many EU nationals do they have working not only in the Home Office
:19:36. > :19:39.but in its different agencies. They don't even collect the figures. She
:19:40. > :19:43.is attacking different companies and firms for the number of foreign
:19:44. > :19:47.workers they employ and not knowing the number. She does not even know
:19:48. > :19:53.the number of people from abroad who are working in her own department
:19:54. > :19:56.agencies. So what we need in my view, if we are going to talk about
:19:57. > :20:01.immigration, is a proper, balanced debate. The problem is you have it
:20:02. > :20:05.played out on two polls. You have those who say immigration is always
:20:06. > :20:09.fantastic, does not pose any challenges to any community. I
:20:10. > :20:12.disagree. On the other hand you have the Nigel Farage view of the world
:20:13. > :20:16.which is that all of our problems are down to immigrants. Now, of
:20:17. > :20:20.course, migration population flows can pose challenges in the Labour
:20:21. > :20:25.market. That is why you properly enforce the minimum wage. Community
:20:26. > :20:29.cohesion, we have to provide better support people settling here too,
:20:30. > :20:32.for example, be able speak English. And we have to make sure local
:20:33. > :20:36.authority areas get the support they need financially to deal with
:20:37. > :20:41.population change. But let's not throw out the baby with the bath
:20:42. > :20:46.water on these issues. There are 1.5 million Brits employed in EU citizen
:20:47. > :20:50.owned businesses in our country, over 100,000 EU citizens hoping to
:20:51. > :20:54.power our public services. And let's not forget all the Brits living
:20:55. > :20:57.abroad in other countries, not just in the EU, who benefit from the
:20:58. > :21:03.movement of people around the globe. So let's have a mature, sensible
:21:04. > :21:05.debate about this. Let's not have these gimmicks and stupid
:21:06. > :21:09.initiatives and headlines which stoked the flames of division when
:21:10. > :21:10.after the EU referendum we have to bring people back together.
:21:11. > :21:20.APPLAUSE Do you approve of survey in
:21:21. > :21:24.employers to see how many foreign workers they have and if they have
:21:25. > :21:31.too many, trying to do something about it, reporting them to the job
:21:32. > :21:37.centre? I think the real issue... I am quoting from Ed Miliband who said
:21:38. > :21:42.this... The root of the problem here is that in the end a lot of
:21:43. > :21:45.employers say, and when I was Shadow Business Secretary they would tell
:21:46. > :21:49.me this all the time, they have chronic shortages. The way of
:21:50. > :21:52.dealing with that is not to attack foreign workers or people who help
:21:53. > :21:56.to provide the skills to businesses, but to make sure we have a skills
:21:57. > :22:00.system that actually provides people with the skills that employers need.
:22:01. > :22:08.But when you were Shadow Business Minister in, if you were Business
:22:09. > :22:13.Secretary, would you have gone... You are not likely to be at the
:22:14. > :22:20.moment, are you? You don't know what is going to happen. You quit the
:22:21. > :22:25.Shadow Cabinet. Are you on offer to Jeremy Corbyn again? I have not had
:22:26. > :22:29.a call yet. There is a reshuffle on going as we speak. Is it sensible
:22:30. > :22:33.for government to do what Ed Miliband seemed to be suggesting in
:22:34. > :22:37.2012, to look at employers and say, they have over a quarter of
:22:38. > :22:41.immigrants, and that is something wrong and we must do something about
:22:42. > :22:45.it? Is that the kind of direct action you would like to see? I
:22:46. > :22:49.don't think that is the way to solve the problem. We have a ridiculous
:22:50. > :22:53.snobbery in this country which says if you do a technical, vocational
:22:54. > :22:57.qualification it is not as important as a degree, when that is where the
:22:58. > :23:01.big skills shortages. Let's have more apprenticeships and end the
:23:02. > :23:02.snobbery that says University is the way to go.
:23:03. > :23:09.APPLAUSE Andy Parsons, let's go back to Lucy
:23:10. > :23:13.Lock's question which is, disclosing how many workers you employ who are
:23:14. > :23:20.foreign encourages xenophobia and racism. Do you agree? I certainly
:23:21. > :23:24.don't think it's a good idea. Amber Rudd said, don't call me racist. We
:23:25. > :23:27.can't talk about immigration and we should be able to talk about
:23:28. > :23:30.immigration. She should certainly be able to talk about immigration. She
:23:31. > :23:35.is the Home Secretary, that is part of her brief. If she can't talk
:23:36. > :23:38.about immigration, then things have gone badly wrong, haven't they? But
:23:39. > :23:42.we have been having a debate about immigration for ten years. We have
:23:43. > :23:47.not talked about much else in the last six months. She rubbished the
:23:48. > :23:54.idea that Labour had set up this fund, the migration impact fund. She
:23:55. > :23:59.said was a terrible idea and then, what did she do, she said, we are
:24:00. > :24:03.doing our own fund, the controlling migration fund. It is not
:24:04. > :24:07.controlling migration, it is the controlling migration impact fund.
:24:08. > :24:11.It is the migration impact fund but in a slightly different form. This
:24:12. > :24:14.idea that we are naming and shaming companies, it should not be shameful
:24:15. > :24:18.if you have a company that you employ foreign workers because there
:24:19. > :24:21.is a skills shortage in Britain. At the moment we have a skills shortage
:24:22. > :24:27.when it comes to negotiators for Brexit. They reckon we have about 25
:24:28. > :24:30.and we need about 500. It seems a good chance that the Ministry of
:24:31. > :24:33.Brexit will be employing quite a few people from abroad and might have to
:24:34. > :24:41.name and shame themselves. APPLAUSE
:24:42. > :24:59.At the top, Sir will stop is no one proud to be British any more, or
:25:00. > :25:05.English? All Welsh? The thing is, if you say something against foreigners
:25:06. > :25:09.or immigrants or whatever, you are immediately known as a racist and
:25:10. > :25:19.all the rest of it. There used to be a thing called freedom of speech.
:25:20. > :25:27.Neil Hamilton. What a Segway that was. I think this is a wholly
:25:28. > :25:29.deplorable idea and utterly irrelevant to immigration control
:25:30. > :25:34.and discredits the notion of the need for immigration control. We are
:25:35. > :25:37.adding to the population of this country, the United Kingdom, a city
:25:38. > :25:43.the size of Cardiff every year from immigration alone. The scale of the
:25:44. > :25:48.inflow is the cause of the problem. When we joined the European Union,
:25:49. > :25:52.the common market as it was, back in 1973, we were nine countries of
:25:53. > :25:56.broadly similar economic prosperity. So we did not have these vast
:25:57. > :26:01.movements across boundaries that we have today. The problem within the
:26:02. > :26:07.European Union was caused largely from 2004 when countries which were
:26:08. > :26:12.formerly behind the Iron Curtain became members of the European Union
:26:13. > :26:16.and their income levels were a fraction of what powers were in this
:26:17. > :26:19.country. So of course people want to come and better their condition of
:26:20. > :26:23.life and move to countries where they can earn more money and live a
:26:24. > :26:27.better life for their families, it wholly admirable notion. The problem
:26:28. > :26:30.is that if the scale of the migration is too fast, then it
:26:31. > :26:35.creates social problems in the countries to which these people are
:26:36. > :26:39.coming. We are not against immigrants as such. They are not the
:26:40. > :26:43.cause of the problem as individuals. The problem is the scale of the
:26:44. > :26:46.flow, and immigration has to be controlled otherwise all sorts of
:26:47. > :26:51.other problems are caused. And that is what actually creates racism and
:26:52. > :26:56.xenophobia. And you do not see Amber Rudd's proposals as trying to
:26:57. > :27:00.staunch... I don't think it will make the slightest contribution to
:27:01. > :27:02.immigration control and I think it discredits the argument and
:27:03. > :27:10.therefore is counter-productive. In the middle. I think the turning of
:27:11. > :27:14.what Amber Rudd said is included dangerous given what happened after
:27:15. > :27:19.Brexit with Polish families and other EU nationals families being
:27:20. > :27:22.attacked. It is hard to enforce for the government anyway because it is
:27:23. > :27:25.a comp located procedure but I thought it was totally inappropriate
:27:26. > :27:32.given what has happened recently with Brexit. What was it that she
:27:33. > :27:36.said? The idea that people were coming and taking British jobs? Is
:27:37. > :27:40.that what you object to? That sort of thing. As Andy Parsons says,
:27:41. > :27:45.there is a skills shortage which a lot of European National is to fill.
:27:46. > :27:51.In Boston, many people work in the fields and British people will not
:27:52. > :27:56.do those jobs. They are hard, manual jobs, which people in Britain do not
:27:57. > :28:00.do any more. Leanne Wood. The last question was about whether Ukip had
:28:01. > :28:03.a future, and judging from the rhetoric on immigration that we
:28:04. > :28:11.heard from the Tory party last week, we could say that Mrs May could be
:28:12. > :28:15.the next leader of Ukip. I think what we saw in the Tory party
:28:16. > :28:18.conference, the vision that was given by Theresa May, is not
:28:19. > :28:23.something that I want to have anything to do with at all. The
:28:24. > :28:27.vision that I have for Wales is one where we can all live together,
:28:28. > :28:32.regardless of where we came from originally. We should respect each
:28:33. > :28:38.other's cultures and languages. But we should be able to live together
:28:39. > :28:42.in harmony. And this idea about separating foreign workers out from
:28:43. > :28:48.the indigenous population, having some kind of list, is a very
:28:49. > :28:53.dangerous road to go down, I would suggest. And I am just glad that, as
:28:54. > :28:56.politics shifts further to the right, becomes more ugly, more
:28:57. > :29:02.divisive, more British nationalists in the way it expresses itself, that
:29:03. > :29:07.we have an opportunity in Wales to do something completely different.
:29:08. > :29:14.And we could create a politics here that is nothing like that
:29:15. > :29:18.whatsoever. So you don't believe in any immigration controls? That is
:29:19. > :29:21.not what I said at all. There is an argument for a sensible immigration
:29:22. > :29:27.policy. We have a shortage of doctors in Wales. We are crying out,
:29:28. > :29:31.where I live, there are GPs retiring and no plan to replace them. 30% of
:29:32. > :29:37.doctors in Wales were trained overseas. Our immigration problem in
:29:38. > :29:41.Wales is that people are leaving the country. The young people are going
:29:42. > :29:45.to university and not coming back, the areas in the valleys that are
:29:46. > :29:49.becoming depopulated. Schools are closing the cause of falling rolls.
:29:50. > :29:53.If our areas were more successful economically, people would want to
:29:54. > :29:54.come and live amongst us, and we should be welcoming to them.
:29:55. > :30:03.APPLAUSE The woman at the back there. Keep
:30:04. > :30:07.your hands up if if you want to speak. You, first?
:30:08. > :30:11.You said students are not coming back to Wales. There's nothing to
:30:12. > :30:17.come back for, that's the problem. Exactly. So how would you go about
:30:18. > :30:22.encouraging people back to Wales? Last week, my partier produced plan
:30:23. > :30:25.for a national infrastructure for Wales for example which involves
:30:26. > :30:30.taking the opposite view to austerity and rather than closing
:30:31. > :30:32.down services, investing in our infrastructure in our Public
:30:33. > :30:36.Services, in our Broadband infrastructure. We've got a country
:30:37. > :30:41.that isn't connected North-to-south, for example. We really do need to
:30:42. > :30:44.invest in those things we missed out on when the times were good. The
:30:45. > :30:47.problem is now, is that money is short because of the banking bail
:30:48. > :30:53.out. You in the third row? I used to live
:30:54. > :30:57.and work in Spain. When I spoke to Spanish people, they said they felt
:30:58. > :31:02.the UK wasn't welcoming to them, to people in the EU, so I wondered how
:31:03. > :31:07.the panel felt that people abroad see us as a country that they don't
:31:08. > :31:12.want to live, work in and contribute in as Europe? I think that's
:31:13. > :31:15.terrible. Hold on, Leanne. Alun Cairns briefly on the suggestion
:31:16. > :31:19.that Leanne made that Theresa May could be leader of Ukip and perhaps
:31:20. > :31:23.in that context you comment on what the young woman there said? Can I
:31:24. > :31:26.say that the message that came out of that referendum was that
:31:27. > :31:30.immigration needed to be controlled and the first stage of controlling
:31:31. > :31:37.it is acknowledging it. Simply Iing network it, Leanne, doesn't mean it
:31:38. > :31:39.goes away. Jeremy Corbyn last week completely failed to recognise the
:31:40. > :31:45.message that came from the referendum. It's interesting that
:31:46. > :31:49.Leanne seems to be very open to immigration in the UK but if it goes
:31:50. > :31:57.into the Welsh communities, she's got something very serious to say.
:31:58. > :32:01.You said something without anything to back it up. What are you talking
:32:02. > :32:07.about? ! APPLAUSE.
:32:08. > :32:16.Give me a quote. Quote me. Give me anything. Migration into Welsh
:32:17. > :32:19.speaking communities, the integration in those communities,
:32:20. > :32:22.I'm a passionate Welsh speaker supporting those communities, that
:32:23. > :32:27.isn't necessarily as it is. Many of your members have taken direct
:32:28. > :32:31.action in the past, many have broken the law to that effect and I would
:32:32. > :32:35.hope that you would condemn them. Who are you talking about, what are
:32:36. > :32:40.you talking about? What are you talking about? You absolutely know
:32:41. > :32:45.that we can go to communities... It's not acceptable. The audience
:32:46. > :32:49.will know there are communities in Wales where there are nationalist
:32:50. > :32:55.activists that take direct action against people who come in. It
:32:56. > :33:01.wasn't so long ago that some of the cottages were being burnt down...
:33:02. > :33:04.Hang on, that is nothing to do with Plaid Cymru. That's slanderous now.
:33:05. > :33:11.That's outrageous. Absolutely outrageous.
:33:12. > :33:17.A brief comment from you? I live in Carmarthenshire. Plaid Cymru are
:33:18. > :33:21.eradicating English stream primary education throughout the whole of
:33:22. > :33:28.Carmarthenshire, what do you say about that? Do you say you are open
:33:29. > :33:31.to immigration? Plaid Cymru a anti-English, especially in
:33:32. > :33:35.Carmarthenshire. I don't accept that, right.
:33:36. > :33:39.APPLAUSE. How my party be anti-English
:33:40. > :33:44.language when the leader is an English language speaker? That would
:33:45. > :33:49.be perverse. You don't speak Welsh? I'm a learner, I'm not a fluent
:33:50. > :33:55.Welsh speaker. We have hundreds of thousands of Welsh speakers. You are
:33:56. > :33:59.catching up? I'm a learner and I'm not fluent so if what you were
:34:00. > :34:04.saying was correct, that would be like a form of self-harm.
:34:05. > :34:10.Let's go on. We can have that one outside later. I shouldn't have said
:34:11. > :34:15.that! I didn't mean to say that out loud. The discussion can go on
:34:16. > :34:21.later! Brian Warlow, please?
:34:22. > :34:25.The Prime Minister this week stated "we are the party of workers. " If
:34:26. > :34:30.true, where does this leave the Labour Party? Over and over again,
:34:31. > :34:34.the true workers party, the party for ordinary working people. Mrs May
:34:35. > :34:39.said that in her conference speech. Andy Parsons, what do you make of
:34:40. > :34:46.that? Well, she was stood up, wasn't she, in font of the slogan which
:34:47. > :34:49.said "a country that works for everyone", then announced she would
:34:50. > :34:57.bring back grammar schools. APPLAUSE.
:34:58. > :35:02.She then said she was going to be the champion for the people that had
:35:03. > :35:08.defied the establishment, forgetting she's been part of the establishment
:35:09. > :35:11.for decades and is arguably now the pinnacle of the establishment. She
:35:12. > :35:16.then went tonne say, Britain should be a country it doesn't matter where
:35:17. > :35:20.you were born. She obviously hadn't heard the speech from her own Home
:35:21. > :35:25.Secretary, her own Health Secretary, who's suggesting we train up more
:35:26. > :35:28.junior doctors and then we can tell the foreign doctors who're helping
:35:29. > :35:31.us out at the moment that they should go away, she hadn't heard
:35:32. > :35:36.from Liam Fox who basically said people who were here from the EU,
:35:37. > :35:39.that he wasn't going to say that they could stay because they were a
:35:40. > :35:41.negotiating chip, they weren't people as such, but a negotiating
:35:42. > :35:47.chip. If I may continue, I've got a little
:35:48. > :35:51.bit more to do if that's all right. The point about, what about Labour,
:35:52. > :35:55.yes, the thing about Labour was, we'd already heard from Philip
:35:56. > :35:59.Hammond, what's now his economic policy? What was he going to do? He
:36:00. > :36:03.wants to say he's going to get rid of the deficit but he's not going to
:36:04. > :36:08.actually tell us now when he's going to get rid of it but we will. That
:36:09. > :36:11.sounds similar to the policy that Ed Balls had before the last election,
:36:12. > :36:14.the challenge for Labour was always, could you actually get the people
:36:15. > :36:20.and the public to believe in what you had to say on the economy, well
:36:21. > :36:23.it seems they have convinced the Conservatives that wasn't the worst
:36:24. > :36:26.economic policy at all. You've lost me, I thought we were talking about
:36:27. > :36:31.whether the Tory party was the party of the workers. Yes, well it was.
:36:32. > :36:35.You were saying it's adopted Ed Balls' policy, does that make
:36:36. > :36:39.them... If you were saying they were taking Labour's position... You were
:36:40. > :36:43.saying that, I thought. I wasn't saying anything. That was part of
:36:44. > :36:47.the question. Yes. You think that is happening? They have tried to do
:36:48. > :36:50.that because they have adopted Labour's economic policy from before
:36:51. > :37:00.the last election. Oh, right. Alun Cairns? Absolutely yes, we are the
:37:01. > :37:02.party of workers. We can recognise that unemployment in Wales, and this
:37:03. > :37:05.is something we can celebrate because I won't talk Wales,
:37:06. > :37:12.unemployment is the lowest across the whole of the UK. It's at %,
:37:13. > :37:17.whereas 4.9% across... ALL SPEAK AT ONCE.
:37:18. > :37:21.That's why we have invited a former Labour adviser Matthew Taylor to
:37:22. > :37:28.conduct an employment review because we recognise working practices have
:37:29. > :37:31.changed. There's much more flexible working, so many more self-employed
:37:32. > :37:34.people. Those people aren't necessarily feeling the benefit of
:37:35. > :37:38.the economic growth and, as a result of that, that's why we want this
:37:39. > :37:43.review to be taking place in order to respond to the needs and demands
:37:44. > :37:48.and offer the same sort of protections to those sorts of people
:37:49. > :37:51.over workers' rights and issues that many people in larger organisations
:37:52. > :37:56.get so absolutely right, we are the party of workers. Chuka Umunna?
:37:57. > :38:00.Before I answer the question, you have already commissioned an
:38:01. > :38:03.employment review which was done under Sajid Javid when he was the
:38:04. > :38:11.Business Secretary and you haven't published it. So why are you talking
:38:12. > :38:16.about commissioning someone else to do it when you haven't done the
:38:17. > :38:19.first one? The Prime Minister said on the steps of Downing Street,
:38:20. > :38:24.absolutely that there are many people out there who don't feel that
:38:25. > :38:30.the economy is working for them or that the country is... You know, in
:38:31. > :38:35.terms of your point, David... People struggle to pay the mortgage. The
:38:36. > :38:39.question was... Don't get the same security as you and I. The question
:38:40. > :38:44.was about workers' rights and I'm sorry. It wasn't. It was about
:38:45. > :38:49.whether the Tories are the party of workers. Clearly they are not. They
:38:50. > :38:52.were the party that introduced employment tribunal fees which
:38:53. > :38:56.prevent workers from getting justice when treated unfairly at work. They
:38:57. > :39:00.have also made it harder for people to claim for unfair dismissal. They
:39:01. > :39:04.continually beat up on the organisations that represent working
:39:05. > :39:07.people, our Trade Unions. Now she wants to pose somehow as the great
:39:08. > :39:12.champion of workers and workers' rights. It's utterly ludicrous,
:39:13. > :39:17.based on the last five to six years. So this whole thing Tories workers,
:39:18. > :39:17.there is a treason audience were laughing.
:39:18. > :39:25.- APPLAUSE.
:39:26. > :39:31.OK. You, mam? I wonder how the Tories
:39:32. > :39:34.can turn round and say they are the party of workers after what they
:39:35. > :39:38.have done not only to the mining industry but the steel industry et
:39:39. > :39:43.cetera. But also the thing that they are currently trying to do with the
:39:44. > :39:46.self-employed who're trying to claim Working Tax Credit or Universal
:39:47. > :39:51.Credit and it's going to be now. They are making it so, so difficult
:39:52. > :39:55.for the self-employed who're just starting out on businesses. I've a
:39:56. > :40:00.friend, she's been trying hard for two years to set up her own business
:40:01. > :40:05.and the stress of it, trying to fill in all the Tax Credit forms set set
:40:06. > :40:11.radio all the time which you have just made far more difficult --
:40:12. > :40:15.forms et cetera. APPLAUSE.
:40:16. > :40:17.This is why Matthew Taylor, a former Labour adviser, has been
:40:18. > :40:20.commissioned to look at these sorts of issues. Theresa May absolute will
:40:21. > :40:24.you stands by this and this is the sort of issues people are
:40:25. > :40:31.complaining about, that Chuka highlighted. If you know so much
:40:32. > :40:38.about workers' rights, why did you introduce and vote for tribunal
:40:39. > :40:43.fees. Do you think Matthew... He's very, very capable. Denying people
:40:44. > :40:48.justice in employment tribunals and you are trying to tell us here that
:40:49. > :40:53.you care about their rights and you voted for that. The man in the
:40:54. > :40:58.centre? Thank you. I would just say that, did the Tories represent
:40:59. > :41:03.working people? Emphatically no. In my view, any credible party that
:41:04. > :41:09.calls the opposition party the nasty party, I think is below contempt. I
:41:10. > :41:16.worked all my life. I was prouder working and had a good career. I'm a
:41:17. > :41:19.member of the Labour Party. I don't consider myself nasty and I don't
:41:20. > :41:23.consider the Labour Party nasty, so certainly the Tories are not
:41:24. > :41:30.representing themselves and I think a lot of other people too.
:41:31. > :41:35.Leanne Wood? I think they're pretending to reach out to working
:41:36. > :41:37.class people, to take advantage of the difficulties that the Labour
:41:38. > :41:41.Party, the in-fighting that's been going on on two Labour Party. I
:41:42. > :41:46.think there's an opportunistic attempt to try to take advantage of
:41:47. > :41:50.that. But what I would say to everybody, particularly everybody in
:41:51. > :41:57.Wales, is just don't believe them. Remember what they did to us in the
:41:58. > :42:01.1980s, remember the deliberate deindustrialisation of our
:42:02. > :42:04.communities. We are still paying the price for that deliberate
:42:05. > :42:08.de-industrialisation today. APPLAUSE.
:42:09. > :42:13.. Before I cam into this job as a
:42:14. > :42:18.politician, I worked as a Probation Officer in the Valleys and some of
:42:19. > :42:23.the social problems that are deep set, second and third generation
:42:24. > :42:26.now, that were started during the 1980s when those pits were
:42:27. > :42:32.deliberately closed, they should never be forgiven for that. Never.
:42:33. > :42:36.APPLAUSE. Neil Hamilton, what cod you make of
:42:37. > :42:43.the Prime Minister's claim that Tories are the party of the workers?
:42:44. > :42:51.Neither the Tories nor Labour are the people of the working. As for
:42:52. > :42:55.Leanne championing the coal industry, she wants to close them
:42:56. > :43:03.all down and rely on windmills to generate electricity. Alun said that
:43:04. > :43:07.employment levels in Wales are higher than ever before. That's
:43:08. > :43:11.true. When you look at the income levels of people who're in work,
:43:12. > :43:16.they've never been lower in relative terms. 15 year, Wales was second
:43:17. > :43:19.from bottom in the league tables of income in the United Kingdom,
:43:20. > :43:23.English regions and the nations. Today Wales is the bottom of the
:43:24. > :43:27.league and we have had a Labour Government in Wales for the last 20
:43:28. > :43:30.years as well and now a Tory Government in the United Kingdom for
:43:31. > :43:34.the last six years. They both failed the people of Wales and the United
:43:35. > :43:38.Kingdom in this respect. Of course, the biggest losers from mass
:43:39. > :43:43.uncontrolled immigration have been those at the bottom of the income
:43:44. > :43:48.scale, people with the fewest skills and so for many people, the minimum
:43:49. > :43:54.wage has now become the maximum wage. We, in Ukip, are the only
:43:55. > :43:56.party who's put forward a credible proposal for immigration control
:43:57. > :44:01.which would help those most at the bottom of the income scale. That is,
:44:02. > :44:04.I think, the real party of working people, Ukip.
:44:05. > :44:10.There are a number of hands up. I would like to ask you to be brief,
:44:11. > :44:15.as I go round. You, Sir, you have been waving away?
:44:16. > :44:19.I must admit I'm absolutely appalled by Alun's comments that he's the
:44:20. > :44:22.party for the working class. I work in Public Services, I'm proud to
:44:23. > :44:24.work in Public Services and your party are killing the NHS. Shame on
:44:25. > :44:38.you. The woman up there. I work as a
:44:39. > :44:43.supply teacher through an agency. Supply teachers used to work through
:44:44. > :44:46.the council. The Conservative government have created a system
:44:47. > :44:51.where we only work through agencies now. We used to have small perks
:44:52. > :44:57.like travel expenses, which have now been taken away because we are not
:44:58. > :45:04.officially self-employed. And yet all the politicians claim all the
:45:05. > :45:08.expenses. The man in the pink shirt. I can only speak from experience. I
:45:09. > :45:12.was in a thriving cosmetic industry in the valleys and when we needed
:45:13. > :45:16.support the only ones who were there were Plaid Cymru. Labour were
:45:17. > :45:20.speaking on TV and the Tories were nowhere to be seen. When you need
:45:21. > :45:28.support, that says it all, they weren't there. In front. How can the
:45:29. > :45:34.Conservatives say they are the party for the working people when they
:45:35. > :45:40.have accelerated the state pension age faster than they needed to, and
:45:41. > :45:42.they have denied women born in the 1950s their state pension until 66.
:45:43. > :46:02.APPLAUSE You, sir, with the daffodil. Be
:46:03. > :46:07.brief. I certainly will. He said you are a proud Welshman, Alun Cairns,
:46:08. > :46:13.but how many of your Cabinet are working class? The majority probably
:46:14. > :46:18.will have come from that sort of background. They are all if Tony is.
:46:19. > :46:24.I am not, I went to school up the road and my father was a welder in
:46:25. > :46:30.the steelworks. A lot of the old eat only and is have left because they
:46:31. > :46:36.changed the Prime Minister. Going on to what some people have said about
:46:37. > :46:40.public services, we have seen a demise of all our public services
:46:41. > :46:44.and not just through the Welsh. You will pass it on to somebody else,
:46:45. > :46:48.but it started with Thatcher. Whether you like it or not, it is a
:46:49. > :46:52.decline of what happened in Wales, and Leanne Wood is right on that. We
:46:53. > :46:57.have heard a good deal about Welsh matters because we are in Neath, but
:46:58. > :47:04.I want to go on to a completely different topic. A question from
:47:05. > :47:09.Mark Parmar. I would like to ask, is it time for the West to accept it
:47:10. > :47:13.can only end the war in Syria by joining forces with Russia and
:47:14. > :47:19.accepting President Assad as a necessary evil? Joining with Russia
:47:20. > :47:23.and accepting Assad. Neil Hamilton. It is very dangerous for western
:47:24. > :47:26.countries to blunder into other countries whose internal politics
:47:27. > :47:32.they don't understand, and which ultimately they can't control. We
:47:33. > :47:36.know the catastrophe of the Iraq war, the intervention in
:47:37. > :47:41.Afghanistan. Western intervention has only made things far, far worse,
:47:42. > :47:43.not just for those countries themselves but also through the
:47:44. > :47:48.exported terrorism which is the inevitable consequence. So the
:47:49. > :47:54.answer to the question is yes, actually. President Assad is not a
:47:55. > :47:59.very nice person, very obviously, but you cannot see these things in a
:48:00. > :48:02.moral vacuum. We have to ask, what is the alternative? Is it going to
:48:03. > :48:07.be better or worse? And I don't think any of the interventions, from
:48:08. > :48:11.Libya across to Afghanistan, that the West, with their grandstanding
:48:12. > :48:17.politicians who like to strut on the world stage and expose for public
:48:18. > :48:21.view what they think is their moral superiority, have done an ounce of
:48:22. > :48:28.good, actually, for the people of those countries themselves. When we
:48:29. > :48:32.look at the horror of Al ACPO today, -- Aleppo, can we really say that
:48:33. > :48:36.Western intervention in Syria has benefited the Syrian people? There
:48:37. > :48:41.may not be a solution. Many problems in the world do not have an answer.
:48:42. > :48:47.But the West can not make things worse by blundering in and doing
:48:48. > :48:52.what, making things worse because they have no idea actually what is
:48:53. > :48:56.going to follow. In Iraq we had no follow-through plan. In Afghanistan
:48:57. > :48:58.we were unable to make any difference, so we ended up making
:48:59. > :49:02.things worse. APPLAUSE
:49:03. > :49:10.You, sir, up there. In that case, Mr Hamilton, do you believe we should
:49:11. > :49:19.continue bombing women and children? The Russians? No. But you have just
:49:20. > :49:23.said that you agree that we should perhaps get into cahoots with the
:49:24. > :49:27.Russians. That was the question, joining forces with Russia and
:49:28. > :49:34.accenting President Assad. That is what you have just agreed to. I
:49:35. > :49:40.don't think we should be involved. Alun Cairns, you voted in favour of
:49:41. > :49:43.bombing Assad. I voted in favour of taking action in Syria in terms of
:49:44. > :49:49.supporting the people against Daesh and the horrors that they would
:49:50. > :49:53.bring about. But for me, at the moment the immediate priority has to
:49:54. > :49:57.be the humanitarian crisis. And the action that we need to take in terms
:49:58. > :50:04.of supporting those in Aleppo. Only earlier this week the last hospital
:50:05. > :50:07.was bombed, tragically, in Aleppo. We have seen terrible photographs of
:50:08. > :50:13.children who have lost their parents and families, and children who have
:50:14. > :50:18.been orphaned as a result. The starting point has got to be to
:50:19. > :50:22.carry on talking in order to get to that US - Russian type ceasefire
:50:23. > :50:26.again so we can get some humanitarian aid. We have a proud
:50:27. > :50:32.record in supporting some of the most challenged countries in terms
:50:33. > :50:37.of who are facing war and conflict, and this is a good reason why I
:50:38. > :50:41.stand by our overseas aid budget to support those communities and those
:50:42. > :50:48.people who absolutely need it now. I can't understand why the UN have not
:50:49. > :50:51.joined together and put Armed Forces into Syria and cleared it all up.
:50:52. > :50:56.Because all of this warming is causing lots of deaths by
:50:57. > :51:02.individuals, innocent individuals and youngsters. I think there should
:51:03. > :51:07.be a plan to win by arms, to clear it and put the state back to where
:51:08. > :51:11.it was. You think that would be effective? More effective than the
:51:12. > :51:16.constant bombing and killing of innocent people. The woman in the
:51:17. > :51:21.front. I think it is tragic, the way we see on television the bombing of
:51:22. > :51:25.the hospitals and everything. I mean, years ago, we went, we helped
:51:26. > :51:30.Ethiopian and all those other places. Look at Northern Ireland. We
:51:31. > :51:34.had to talk to finish the Northern Ireland conflict. There had to be
:51:35. > :51:40.talks. And I think there are going to have two B, whoever talks and
:51:41. > :51:43.whatever. I don't believe we should go into Syria because look at Iraq
:51:44. > :51:48.and all the other places that we have been into, and look at them
:51:49. > :51:52.now. But I think we should definitely be talking, no matter
:51:53. > :51:57.what Assad is, and no matter what Putin is. They seem to have the
:51:58. > :52:01.power together. Some people think they are in cahoots. Well, let's
:52:02. > :52:10.stop this terrible tragedy that's going on. When you see the pictures
:52:11. > :52:16.on television, I'm sure everybody's heart is breaking. It is awful. Mark
:52:17. > :52:21.Parmar, do you agree with what she is saying? What would you like to
:52:22. > :52:24.see happen? Obviously, I would like to see the war end, but unless we
:52:25. > :52:29.accept the reality that if we don't talk to Russia and talk to Assad,
:52:30. > :52:33.then our current policies have been playing out for five and a half
:52:34. > :52:38.years. Are we prepared to have another five and a half years of not
:52:39. > :52:46.talking, watching more hospitals blown up? Andy Parsons. Our policy
:52:47. > :52:51.towards Syria has been not well thought through. David Cameron
:52:52. > :52:55.wanted to get bombing in 2013 and did not succeed with that vote. Even
:52:56. > :52:59.wanted to get the bombing in 2015 and succeeded with that. The only
:53:00. > :53:02.difference between those two votes was that in those two years he
:53:03. > :53:09.wanted to bomb completely different sides from 2013 to the one he wanted
:53:10. > :53:14.to bomb in 2015. That does not seem a coherent foreign policy. We have
:53:15. > :53:19.the global players supporting different sides and in terms of what
:53:20. > :53:27.we need to do, yes, we have to talk. But what can we actually do at the
:53:28. > :53:31.moment? One thing we can do is that there are a lot of Syrian refugee
:53:32. > :53:35.kids who are currently in Calais with links to British families, and
:53:36. > :53:39.we are keeping them behind that wall. One thing we should definitely
:53:40. > :53:39.do is get them into this country and help them now.
:53:40. > :53:53.APPLAUSE Can I just say, I think we have
:53:54. > :53:58.missed the boat on discussions with Russia and Assad. We have had the
:53:59. > :54:02.opportunity over the last four or five years. Unfortunately, if Mr
:54:03. > :54:07.Trump wins the American presidential elections, he is not known for his
:54:08. > :54:11.foreign relations and his ability to talk nicely to other nations. So I
:54:12. > :54:15.think we have missed the boat on that and if he gets into power, it
:54:16. > :54:20.is going to be quite a desperate situation for the world, really.
:54:21. > :54:24.Would you have liked to have seen the West ally themselves with Russia
:54:25. > :54:28.and accept that Assad would remain in power? I am not saying that. We
:54:29. > :54:33.have had the opportunity to talk to people who could make a difference.
:54:34. > :54:36.We have missed the boat. Mr Trump is certainly going to make a difference
:54:37. > :54:40.but not in the manner that we would all like. The result is going to be
:54:41. > :54:46.a complete disaster for the Globe, I'm afraid. Let's be clear, we
:54:47. > :54:56.should not ally with Russia and access Assad as the dictator of his
:54:57. > :55:00.country. -- access Assad. In this discussion, we seem to have
:55:01. > :55:05.forgotten how what has happened in Syria came about. It came about
:55:06. > :55:08.because a brutal, nasty dictator, in Assad, refused to accept the desire
:55:09. > :55:13.for democracy amongst his people coming off the Arab Spring in 2011.
:55:14. > :55:18.That is how this started, so the idea that we should align with
:55:19. > :55:25.Russia and prop up this nasty dictator incenses me. Let us not
:55:26. > :55:28.forget, if you look at what the Russians and Syrian forces have been
:55:29. > :55:31.doing in Syria, they have killed more people, more civilians than
:55:32. > :55:38.Daesh and the Al-Nusra Front put together. So they are the problem.
:55:39. > :55:42.Let us be clear about that. Of course, the reason that UK forces
:55:43. > :55:49.are taking action, with others, both in Iraq and Syria and in the space
:55:50. > :55:54.in between, is to degrade Daesh and stop the terrorism we see. That has
:55:55. > :55:58.been successful to some extent in Iraq and is beginning to render
:55:59. > :56:01.results in Syria. But no one is under any illusion that somehow that
:56:02. > :56:06.is then to solve the problem in Syria. Three years ago you voted
:56:07. > :56:12.against bombing Assad's forces, didn't you? Yes, and then I voted
:56:13. > :56:15.for action in Syria recently. The reason I voted against it in 2013
:56:16. > :56:21.was that we were not presented with any plan. We were not presented with
:56:22. > :56:25.details on the legal basis as to why we were being asked to intervene.
:56:26. > :56:29.That was not the case more recently. There are three things. You need
:56:30. > :56:34.unfettered humanitarian access, which has not been provided so far.
:56:35. > :56:37.But ultimately, you need a negotiated settlement. You need to
:56:38. > :56:41.create the environment in which the UN can help with that deal.
:56:42. > :56:45.Absolutely not, the idea of propping up the guy who started this in the
:56:46. > :56:54.first place is at Horut. Leanne Wood. If you look at where most of
:56:55. > :56:58.the refugees within the European Union have come from, it is Syria.
:56:59. > :57:03.It is an extremely complicated situation. Nobody has the answers. I
:57:04. > :57:08.certainly don't. I don't think that there is a military solution to
:57:09. > :57:12.this. There has to be a political solution, and there does have two B,
:57:13. > :57:18.if there is going to be an end to violence, at some point there are
:57:19. > :57:22.going to have to be talks. But I think what Andy said is spot on.
:57:23. > :57:26.There are limits to what we can do, but there are some things that we
:57:27. > :57:30.can do. Those civilian children in Calais, we should be offering those
:57:31. > :57:35.children a safe space and a home, because the risks that they are
:57:36. > :57:36.facing in that Calais jungle, it does not bear thinking about.
:57:37. > :57:44.APPLAUSE I would like to hear what you have
:57:45. > :57:48.to say that we have to stop. We're in Hendon, North London
:57:49. > :57:51.next week with former SNP leader Alex Salmond
:57:52. > :57:53.and Labour's Shadow Defence spokesman Clive Lewis
:57:54. > :57:56.among our panelists. The following week
:57:57. > :57:58.we'll be in Hartlepool. Come and join us, Hendon
:57:59. > :58:01.or Hartlepool, go to our website, If you are listening tonight
:58:02. > :58:16.on Radio 5Live, the debate goes From Neath, until next week,
:58:17. > :58:25.Good night.