:00:00. > :00:08.This week we are in the shadow of a Second World War Lancaster
:00:09. > :00:28.Conservative Work and Pensions Secretary, Damian Green.
:00:29. > :00:33.Labour's Shadow Foreign Secretary, Emily Thornberry.
:00:34. > :00:36.The former Leader of the SNP and First Minister of
:00:37. > :00:41.The Daily Mail's political editor at large, Isabel Oakeshott.
:00:42. > :00:44.And the editor of the Independent, which stopped printing to go online
:00:45. > :01:08.As ever, you can join the debate on Facebook,
:01:09. > :01:19.Your can make your comments on what you hear around this table and by
:01:20. > :01:25.this audience. Our first question from Mr Hambro? Did the British
:01:26. > :01:30.public give Theresa May a blank cheque to force through which ever
:01:31. > :01:34.Brexit she likes? Alex Salmond? I don't think that would be would or
:01:35. > :01:40.should be the case. There's going to be a majority in the House of
:01:41. > :01:42.Commons to invehicle Article 50, the article to withdraw from the
:01:43. > :01:47.European Union. I think there's going to be a vote. I suspect, a
:01:48. > :01:51.very close vote forced on the House of Commonses as to what kind of
:01:52. > :01:56.Brexit the Prime Minister now has in mind. She told us for some weeks
:01:57. > :02:00.that Brexit means Brexit, but never told us what Brexit meant. You can
:02:01. > :02:05.have a variety of withdrawals from the European Union. You could be
:02:06. > :02:08.like Norway, in the single market, out with the customs union, but not
:02:09. > :02:10.a member of the European Union. You can be like Turkey, which is
:02:11. > :02:14.actually not a member of the European Union, not in the single
:02:15. > :02:20.market, but within a customs union. Which of these has she been offered
:02:21. > :02:26.by the Brexit vote or lick her finger and hold it up to the air?
:02:27. > :02:30.She has to tell us and get the Brexiteers to agree with each other.
:02:31. > :02:34.Then they can come to the House of Commons to say this is the type of
:02:35. > :02:41.Brexit that we want to see. We will find out if it's a hard Brexit, a
:02:42. > :02:52.soft Brexit or a dog's breakfast! Damian Green. Donald tusk say the
:02:53. > :02:59.only alternative to hard Brexit is no Brexit. When people voted on June
:03:00. > :03:04.23rd they were voting for some form of more control. So the plan the
:03:05. > :03:10.Government has got is that we should certainly take control of our
:03:11. > :03:15.borders. That we should have our laws made by our own Parliament
:03:16. > :03:18.rather than have to go through the European Court of Justies.
:03:19. > :03:24.Crucially, that we need the best deal for businesses both in goods
:03:25. > :03:30.and services that trade in Europe. Now, that's a clear plan. What the
:03:31. > :03:36.details will be will obviously have to be negotiated with the 27 other
:03:37. > :03:40.European countries. No sensible person has ever gone into a
:03:41. > :03:44.negotiation saying every last detail is going to be put on the table at
:03:45. > :03:51.the start. So I think the idea to have all the details out there would
:03:52. > :03:57.be disked a van tailingious to this country. If there are people who
:03:58. > :04:02.regret the result and want to use procedures to obstruct it. I was on
:04:03. > :04:09.the board of the In campaign. No-one campaigned harder than I did to keep
:04:10. > :04:14.us in. I'm democrat. The British people voted to get out and I think
:04:15. > :04:19.we should respect that referendum result.
:04:20. > :04:22.APPLAUSE. Not saying that Parliament shouldn't respect the democratic
:04:23. > :04:27.result, of course not. Don't you think that There should at least
:04:28. > :04:31.be... Not reveal your entire hand before negotiation, come to
:04:32. > :04:35.Parliament, the people's representatives, and be held
:04:36. > :04:37.accountable? I think it's in the Government's interest and the whole
:04:38. > :04:42.country to be held accountable rather than getting some kind of
:04:43. > :04:46.blank cheque? Briefly? Well, briefly, this week in Parliament
:04:47. > :04:49.alone we've had about seven-and-a-half hours debate on
:04:50. > :04:53.this. A two hour statement from David Davis. A Labour opposition day
:04:54. > :04:56.debate yesterday. Yesterday five-and-a-half hours. That will be
:04:57. > :05:00.repeated week after week. Parliament will have a huge say in this
:05:01. > :05:05.negotiation. The Government has just set up a new cross-party Select
:05:06. > :05:10.Committee to investigate this, Chaired by a Labour MP with
:05:11. > :05:15.representatives of all countries in the United Kingdom on it. Parliament
:05:16. > :05:20.will obviously have a huge say in this. The woman there. Then Emily
:05:21. > :05:26.Thornberry. Whatever kind of Brexit Theresa May is going to choose, what
:05:27. > :05:29.we need really is an end to this uncertainty that is destabilising
:05:30. > :05:36.the economy at the moment, fluctuating the pound and affecting
:05:37. > :05:41.businesses, big and small. We have seen fr Unilever down to the small
:05:42. > :05:46.businesses that I run, a small architecture firm, that my clients
:05:47. > :05:50.are nervous. They're not wanting to put on the line all of their savings
:05:51. > :05:54.when you don't know what will happen. Are you saying she should
:05:55. > :05:57.have made up her mind what kind of solution she is going to go for?
:05:58. > :06:02.Would that be enough. She has to negotiate with the rest of the EU,
:06:03. > :06:11.hasn't she? There are a few opportunities we have to put forward
:06:12. > :06:17.this plan and she's... With Labour's vote this week to spell it out
:06:18. > :06:19.before she enters into the realm of discussing with the EU. Emily
:06:20. > :06:26.Thornberry. APPLAUSE. Does Theresa May have a
:06:27. > :06:30.blank cheque, absolutely not. Absolutely not. The fact of the
:06:31. > :06:33.matter is, that of course we get our instructions from the British public
:06:34. > :06:36.and the British public have said they want us to leave the European
:06:37. > :06:40.Union. But one thing that wasn't clear from that referendum, and the
:06:41. > :06:43.so-called debate around it, was what our continuing relationship with
:06:44. > :06:47.Europe was going to be because we arary not going to go sailing off
:06:48. > :06:52.into the North Sea and having nothing to do with our European
:06:53. > :06:56.neighbours with whom we export 45% of good and services at the moment.
:06:57. > :07:02.We need a continuing relationship. They have had many months since the
:07:03. > :07:05.referendum. Theresa May did not stood on a platform. Didn't have a
:07:06. > :07:11.manifesto in terms of what kind of leader she was going to be. We go
:07:12. > :07:15.into Tory party conference. We get different versions. Theresa May
:07:16. > :07:19.playing to the right-wingers. Liam Fox, lord knows what his version of
:07:20. > :07:23.Brexit will be. We have the Chancellor of the Exchequer and his
:07:24. > :07:26.department clearly totally with jitters about it. They are all
:07:27. > :07:29.saying different things. The Japanese companies who invest a
:07:30. > :07:33.great deal in our country and are major investors. The Japanese
:07:34. > :07:37.government, they are so pee lie. They wrote a letter, made it public,
:07:38. > :07:41.they asked a series of questions, quite right to, what are you going
:07:42. > :07:44.to do? What is your continuing trade relationship with Europe going to
:07:45. > :07:48.be? What will be the migration policy? What will you do with
:07:49. > :07:54.regional funding? There are so many questions... 170 questions. 170
:07:55. > :07:58.questions. I have them, too. One question a day. You expect them to
:07:59. > :08:02.answer all these? Of course. If they don't answer our questions now,
:08:03. > :08:05.right, I can tell you one thing, the 27 partners that we have in Europe,
:08:06. > :08:08.they will be asking all these questions when they arrive in
:08:09. > :08:12.Brussels on the 31st March. They will want to know what our position
:08:13. > :08:19.is. When the Tories say - we have to keep our cards close to our chest,
:08:20. > :08:23.excuse me, what cards? You can't even agree amongst ourselves what
:08:24. > :08:26.game you are playing. It's not right and not democratic for them to think
:08:27. > :08:29.they can go into a locked room, have a bust up amongst themselves and
:08:30. > :08:31.decide what is best for me, my children and my grandchildren. Thank
:08:32. > :08:40.you. APPLAUSE. Isabel Oakeshott.
:08:41. > :08:48.This 170 questions put by Labour is an absolute absurdity. I had the
:08:49. > :08:53.displeasure of hearing Emily Thornberry on the radio yesterday
:08:54. > :08:56.unable to answer even one question about her party's immigration
:08:57. > :09:01.policy. To get back to the issue about hard or soft Brexit. I would
:09:02. > :09:06.like to get rid of this term "hard Brexit." It is designed to
:09:07. > :09:13.intimidate. It's a continuation of Project Fear. Let's think about what
:09:14. > :09:18."soft Brexit is" it's sell-out Brexit. Hard Brexit is real Brexit.
:09:19. > :09:26.It's what people voted for which is control over our borders. Oh, no.
:09:27. > :09:35.APPLAUSE. All right. Amol Rajan, do you remember the question. The
:09:36. > :09:40.question was, has the British public given Theresa May a blank cheque. I
:09:41. > :09:44.will come back to this... I haven't enough time to get into that. Let's
:09:45. > :09:48.not go there. I agree with Isabel Oakeshott that the idea of hard and
:09:49. > :09:52.soft Brexit is complete and utter nonsense. It's a dangerous type of
:09:53. > :09:55.language. What we are talking about is a single market. On the single
:09:56. > :09:59.market the question is - is Britain going to remain part of the single
:10:00. > :10:02.market We don't know. When Article 50 is triggered you enter a two year
:10:03. > :10:07.negotiation. In that negotiation, over two years, I can't see why 27
:10:08. > :10:11.countries each of which has a veto, can't see why any of them have any
:10:12. > :10:15.incentive to let us remain part of the single market. They would think
:10:16. > :10:19.- Britain has to pay a price for coming out. Theresa May said it in
:10:20. > :10:23.her conference speech that Britain's relationship won't be anything like
:10:24. > :10:26.what it was. I take it to mean we will be leaving the single market.
:10:27. > :10:30.It's really about respecting the will of the people which is to say,
:10:31. > :10:34.if people want control of migration you have to leave the single market.
:10:35. > :10:40.That is the fact. That, as far as I can see, that is the trade off made
:10:41. > :10:43.on June 23rd. Britain might become poorer but we get control of
:10:44. > :10:47.immigration. How do you know that? Damian Green said it was about
:10:48. > :10:52.wanting more control, simply, how do you know? I don't know. I interpret
:10:53. > :10:57.from general polls. Poll that is have been recorded for years that
:10:58. > :11:01.people want low migration. I have two questions that a lot of people
:11:02. > :11:03.would want answered which I don't know the answer to, despite being
:11:04. > :11:07.someone who follows politics closely. If there was a vote in
:11:08. > :11:10.Parliament it wouldn't be binding it's not legislation, I can't see
:11:11. > :11:16.why the Government wouldn't just ignore it? I don't know why that
:11:17. > :11:20.matters. The other thing is, if you are starting a negotiation which
:11:21. > :11:24.lasts for two years, how can you ask a Government to lay out all of its
:11:25. > :11:28.negotiating position and the things on which it's flexible. You can't do
:11:29. > :11:33.that... Sgls can you ask no questions at all of the Prime
:11:34. > :11:37.Minister? I don't understand how it would work to say to the Government
:11:38. > :11:40.come forward... When David Cameron went off to Europe before the
:11:41. > :11:44.referendum and fixed the problems of Europe, he went entirely as a
:11:45. > :11:47.representative of the Tory party going into a general election. The
:11:48. > :11:52.people in Europe saw him coming and thought - he's not speaking on
:11:53. > :11:55.behalf of the whole of Britain, he is speaking on behalf of Torrancies.
:11:56. > :11:59.They were wrong. We thought they weren't going to win the election.
:12:00. > :12:02.They did. In order for them to strengthen their hand what they
:12:03. > :12:05.should be doing is am coulding to the British parliament. We should be
:12:06. > :12:09.able to have a debate. We ought to have an exchange of ideas and come
:12:10. > :12:14.to at least some form - We did that yesterday. I will come to that.
:12:15. > :12:17.Don't come to that. Five-and-a-half hours we were sitting in parliament.
:12:18. > :12:20.Did we get anything from the Tories at all in terms of what their plans
:12:21. > :12:26.were? Absolutely not. I will stop you. Everybody else has to have a
:12:27. > :12:31.say. Damian Green said there will be lots of discussion but he didn't say
:12:32. > :12:35.whether there will be a vote. You can talk endlessly and find out
:12:36. > :12:39.nothing. Is there going to be a vote. There the reason there has to
:12:40. > :12:43.be a vote. At some stage to withdraw from the European Union there has to
:12:44. > :12:47.be an Act passed. They should have a note now. If they can't get a
:12:48. > :12:52.majority for the negotiating terms, how on earth would they get a
:12:53. > :12:56.majority after they finished the negotiations. That is why they
:12:57. > :13:03.should bring the terms to parliament now, have a vote and let's see...
:13:04. > :13:08.The assumption that we are trading our membership of the single market
:13:09. > :13:12.for ability to control our borders and gaining our sovereignty is a
:13:13. > :13:16.strange one because I think it's a positive case for leaving the single
:13:17. > :13:20.market we are leaving a world of regulation and entering a world of
:13:21. > :13:24.markets which seem to be creating trade deals with far greater
:13:25. > :13:31.success. All right. APPLAUSE.
:13:32. > :13:36.The man at the back. Thank you. You say you had a clear plan on
:13:37. > :13:41.negotiating Brexit. Theresa May said she wants maximum control of the
:13:42. > :13:47.borders and maximum possible access to the single market. But you can't
:13:48. > :13:54.have both. I need to know, how is that a plan It's not an unreasonable
:13:55. > :13:58.position to want it. It's a perfectly sensible opening position
:13:59. > :14:03.that we accept. I said that in my first answer. You said, Alex, there
:14:04. > :14:06.will have to be a vote on an Act. Absolutely. That's what the Prime
:14:07. > :14:12.Minister promised this week. There will be a repeal Act in the next...
:14:13. > :14:19.Talk about a strategy it has nothing to do with it. It's of the European
:14:20. > :14:22.Union... No. Let me finish. It's about repealing the existing
:14:23. > :14:27.legislation. That is precisely what the legislation is. Parliament will
:14:28. > :14:30.debate that and vote on it. Is that the same thing... Downing Street
:14:31. > :14:33.said there would be a vote on a final deal. Is that what you are
:14:34. > :14:40.talking about or something different No. No, that's another vote. It
:14:41. > :14:47.pullsous out of the European Union Act. The woman there. Damian Green
:14:48. > :14:51.opened by saying people clearly want more control, but how do they know
:14:52. > :14:55.what people want? The question on the ballot paper is, do you want to
:14:56. > :14:59.remain or leave the European Union? They seem to be... The one thing
:15:00. > :15:04.they seem to be hijacking the voice of the Leave voters for their own
:15:05. > :15:08.ends. When you voted. I won't ask you how you voted. Did you know what
:15:09. > :15:13.you were voting for? Yes. Perhaps I will ask how you voted. I voted to
:15:14. > :15:18.remain. Are you suggesting that the vast pa yort of people who voted to
:15:19. > :15:23.leave, 17.4 million people didn't know what they were voting for or
:15:24. > :15:31.why? No, I'm suggesting... Because most YES! Oh, right. That is
:15:32. > :15:34.fascinating that you think so many people, ordinary voters, are so
:15:35. > :15:40.stupid. APPLAUSE. What they think is voters
:15:41. > :15:44.were lied to by the No campaign, that is what they think. You don't
:15:45. > :15:49.think they were lied to by the Yes campaign. People voted for many
:15:50. > :15:54.different reasons, I know many Leave voters who did not vote to kerb
:15:55. > :16:00.immigration they voted for more sovereignty. So a hard Brexit does
:16:01. > :16:06.not serve their vote. You will get sovereignty. You. I agree with Emily
:16:07. > :16:12.Thornberry, I'd like to make the point, are we going to allow a woman
:16:13. > :16:16.exercise an executive power because she's a Prime Minister who doesn't
:16:17. > :16:21.have a democratic mandate of her own and who is refusing to call a
:16:22. > :16:22.general election for all of us to test the credibility of her
:16:23. > :16:30.Premiership? You, in the second row? We almost
:16:31. > :16:33.need to get back to the point where we are talking about the card on the
:16:34. > :16:37.table and anyone that negotiates don't put their cards on the table
:16:38. > :16:40.publicly or even in Parliament, I would say, I would say everyone
:16:41. > :16:43.needs to come up with a plan and an idea, put that forward and maybe
:16:44. > :16:48.then a general election or some sort of vote, not a referendum, could be
:16:49. > :16:53.then given. OK. Any Leave voters? What do you feel about the way that
:16:54. > :16:57.it's being handled now, the man in the white and grey? It's been
:16:58. > :17:02.handled in the correct way I think. Correct way? Yes. Do you know what
:17:03. > :17:10.you voted for? Absolutely. What anoise me is when Mr Salmond and Mrs
:17:11. > :17:14.Thornberry tell us things, it's almost like project fear again. Stop
:17:15. > :17:20.belittling us, we know what we voted for. What did you vote for? To take
:17:21. > :17:23.sovereignty of our laws, to get rid of the single markets regulation and
:17:24. > :17:28.to take back control of immigration. Now, I know that hasn't been put in
:17:29. > :17:32.black-and-white and we don't have a definitive plan, but there were
:17:33. > :17:35.freaky aspects we voted for, so stop telling us we didn't know what we
:17:36. > :17:42.voted for, because we did. APPLAUSE.
:17:43. > :17:45.Some people, perhaps not yourself, believe that the National Health
:17:46. > :17:51.Service was going to get an extra ?350 million a week. We have seen no
:17:52. > :17:57.sign of it. Anybody else who voted Brexit? You, Sir? There were three
:17:58. > :18:00.Holy Grails of what leave means, taking back control of immigration,
:18:01. > :18:05.laws and money. None of that can be achieved in the single markets.
:18:06. > :18:12.David Cameron, George Osborne, everyone has a consensus, leave
:18:13. > :18:20.means leave, remain means means remain in. I don't know why the
:18:21. > :18:28."bemoaners" believe we should leave by the back door. It's ridiculous.
:18:29. > :18:30.Do you agree? It's difficult for me to interpret what Leave voters
:18:31. > :18:34.wanted. But you are in the Government, you have to interpret
:18:35. > :18:40.it? That's what we are doing. Broadly speaking, that is the
:18:41. > :18:43.message we get from the Leave vote and, broadly speaking, as I've said
:18:44. > :18:49.a couple of times, that's what we are looking to. The question of
:18:50. > :18:54.trying to achieve the maximum control of immigration and also the
:18:55. > :18:57.maximum advantage for British companies trading in Europe, yes
:18:58. > :19:01.that's exactly what we are trying to do and it will be a negotiation so
:19:02. > :19:06.we can't lay out the details now, but it does seem not unreasonable,
:19:07. > :19:10.as an opening position to say, we'll do what the British people have
:19:11. > :19:13.wanted and also what is to the maximum economic advantage for the
:19:14. > :19:19.future prosperity of this country. All right. Emily, you said, we have
:19:20. > :19:23.to negotiate but then we need to consult the public again on whether
:19:24. > :19:28.or not the deal is a reflection of what they thought they were voting
:19:29. > :19:32.for. If you talk to that gentleman there who voted out, there is no
:19:33. > :19:36.need to consult him again and no need to consult him there, it was
:19:37. > :19:40.over 17 million who voted out. You are saying they don't believe they
:19:41. > :19:45.knew what they were voting for. Let me ask it this way, how many people
:19:46. > :19:53.voted to take their next door neighbour's job away because... That
:19:54. > :19:59.is ludicrous. That is ludicrous. Because the truth is, is that the
:20:00. > :20:02.Government ought to have first of all it's primary responsibility, the
:20:03. > :20:05.safety of its people, and the secondary responsibility is to make
:20:06. > :20:08.sure we have a decent economy so people keep their jobs. People
:20:09. > :20:12.who've only just got their heads above water, if this economy goes
:20:13. > :20:17.south, people who're just making ends meet will be the ones who'll
:20:18. > :20:23.suffer most. It won't be Liam Fox's family who'll suffer, it will be
:20:24. > :20:26.ordinary families suffer. So you issued the challenge, how many of
:20:27. > :20:34.you voted to take your neighbour's jobs away? Hands up. No hands up. I
:20:35. > :20:37.mean that is ludicrous. I'll tell you what, Emily, the job of the
:20:38. > :20:45.opposition is not to talk total nonsense. Yeah.
:20:46. > :20:54.APPLAUSE. You, Sir? Would Emily Thornberry
:20:55. > :20:59.please provide the terms that Labour would agree to and would you provide
:21:00. > :21:04.the answers to the 170 questions that you'd like to receive?
:21:05. > :21:09.I think that if we were able... We haven't got time for the 170. Try
:21:10. > :21:14.one? I would be quite happy to be the Foreign Secretary and for us to
:21:15. > :21:21.be in Government and for us to have What you would like to do... We'd
:21:22. > :21:26.like to have Whitehall at our disposal but we do not. We are the
:21:27. > :21:29.opposition, it's our obligation at a time like this, at a time of grave
:21:30. > :21:33.constitutional, economic and political crisis for us to be asking
:21:34. > :21:38.questions and for the Government to be doing its utmost to answer them.
:21:39. > :21:43.Uncertainty has to end. For the sake of all of us. It isn't just the sake
:21:44. > :21:46.of us, the CBI, the Japanese, the chair of the Treasury Select
:21:47. > :21:52.Committee. You have said that, yes. Well, you know. Can I put things a
:21:53. > :21:56.different way from Emily. I spent two referendums, the Scottish one
:21:57. > :22:00.and the European one deprecating project fear. During the referendum
:22:01. > :22:06.campaign I was arguing for Corp remain but on this programme I
:22:07. > :22:09.attacked George Osborne for the way he was presenting the Remain
:22:10. > :22:12.argument because I didn't think people were going to be bullied out
:22:13. > :22:18.of the vote, nor should they have been. But the fact is, if it is a
:22:19. > :22:22.hard Brexit, if we go out with the single market with no provisions in
:22:23. > :22:27.place for the trade, then we will lose jobs. The Prime Minister is the
:22:28. > :22:33.first Lord of the Treasury, the Treasury forecast says that. Now
:22:34. > :22:37.either she should sack the civil servants who're forecasting and get
:22:38. > :22:40.other ones or perhaps she should sack the Chancellor or both,
:22:41. > :22:44.whatever, she can't have her cake and eat it in that sense. However,
:22:45. > :22:49.the Scottish Parliament had a forecast produced that out with the
:22:50. > :22:56.single market, there would be 80,000 jobs lost in Scotland. Now, that's
:22:57. > :23:00.people not in the Treasury. That can be changed if there are other
:23:01. > :23:04.arrangements made. But unless we know what the arrangements are, then
:23:05. > :23:10.we face the hard Brexit possibility and the job losses. That is the
:23:11. > :23:20.outcome. The man in the checked shirt. You, please? We were offered
:23:21. > :23:25.a bindery choice, to Leave or Remain, we weren't offered to stay
:23:26. > :23:29.in the single market but remain like Norway. To do that would respect the
:23:30. > :23:32.referendum because we weren't offered that choice. It would
:23:33. > :23:38.maintain the best things about the European Union and deal with many
:23:39. > :23:42.people's concerns, avoid the economic catastrophe about the hard
:23:43. > :23:46.Brexit. Extraordinary that the Government has ruled that out of the
:23:47. > :23:52.question. You, Sir, in the front? Moving on
:23:53. > :23:57.from the nitty-gritty, either hard or soft Brexit, the result that was
:23:58. > :24:01.quite close has showed that Britain is very divided in terms of opinion
:24:02. > :24:04.on either side and also, I think that in the Daily Mail and the Daily
:24:05. > :24:12.Express this week, the headlines and the kind of Daily Mail or Daily
:24:13. > :24:17.Express comment damning Ramoaners as you put it, I mean I disagree with
:24:18. > :24:24.that by the way, but the very fact that you have put that in vitriolic
:24:25. > :24:28.language to 48% of Britain does not help reverse the divisions in
:24:29. > :24:34.British society. Isabel, let me ask you a question. If you were Prime
:24:35. > :24:37.Minister and you're faced with 48% saying Remain, what account of them
:24:38. > :24:42.would you take if you were Theresa May? Well, that is obviously a very
:24:43. > :24:47.legitimate question but I need to come back to... What is the
:24:48. > :24:51.legitimate answer? In this country we have a Parliamentary democracy
:24:52. > :24:54.that goes by a first-past-the-post system so in the referendum the
:24:55. > :25:00.majority of the people voted out, that has to be respected. To come
:25:01. > :25:06.back to you on your issue with the Daily Mail editorial. When we talked
:25:07. > :25:10.about Ramoaners, it's not ordinary people voting to remain, it's the
:25:11. > :25:15.politicians, Anna Soubry, Nicky Morgan, the politicians, by the way
:25:16. > :25:19.the majority of whose own constituents voted out. Ed Miliband
:25:20. > :25:25.the same, the majority of his voted out and yet they are telling us it's
:25:26. > :25:30.doom, it's going to be Amageddon and we are not respecting the will of
:25:31. > :25:34.the people and are trying to argue for another referendum dumb because
:25:35. > :25:39.they didn't like the answer. What do you make of your colleagues who've
:25:40. > :25:46.been named by the Daily Mail as the moaners? Democratic politicians are
:25:47. > :25:50.have the right and duty to say what they think and newspapers shouldn't
:25:51. > :25:54.complain about that. The point about it was 52-48 is a good one and the
:25:55. > :25:58.answer to what is the job of the Government is, precisely to bring
:25:59. > :26:03.the country together by producing the best deal possible and Emily was
:26:04. > :26:09.right. Let me rescue emmy. He was right to talk about the... I don't
:26:10. > :26:11.think she needs rescuing. The economic issue is very, very
:26:12. > :26:16.important. We have got a tremendously strong economy. We have
:26:17. > :26:20.been the fastest growing big economy for years, we've got more jobs than
:26:21. > :26:24.we've had for ten years, more women in work than ever before and
:26:25. > :26:27.preserving that by keeping Britain as a prosperous outward looking
:26:28. > :26:30.global trading nation both with Europe and the rest of the world is
:26:31. > :26:35.absolutely at the heart of what the Government is trying to do and that
:26:36. > :26:41.will preserve our prosperity for the future. The second lady that spoke
:26:42. > :26:43.was a small business owner. I've got to tell you two things that
:26:44. > :26:47.everybody here needs to understand. We have got two and a bit years for
:26:48. > :26:51.this. This is going on for a long time. You are shaking your head
:26:52. > :26:57.because you want certainty. We are not going to have anything like
:26:58. > :27:01.certainty for a long time. 27 other countries have a veto. Even if you
:27:02. > :27:05.think you have certainty, in the final minute, someone can pull a
:27:06. > :27:08.rabbit out of the hat so get used to it, basically. Sorry, we'd better
:27:09. > :27:12.move on because we are half way through the programme on that one
:27:13. > :27:19.topic. Do you want very briefly to speak? You have had your hand up a
:27:20. > :27:23.long time? I take issue with people saying that people that voted out
:27:24. > :27:26.were stupid because we are not. I've done informed research and based my
:27:27. > :27:30.decision on that. Absolutely.
:27:31. > :27:35.APPLAUSE. And what did you vote for when you
:27:36. > :27:38.voted? I voted to leave. For what though? To leave the single market
:27:39. > :27:41.because there is a bigger world out there that we can trade with. There
:27:42. > :27:45.is so much more opportunities than in Europe and there is no growth in
:27:46. > :27:51.Europe. And did you vote to take your neighbour's job away? Come on,
:27:52. > :27:52.ridiculous question. I vote to take Emily's job away.
:27:53. > :28:05.APPLAUSE. We're in Hartlepool next week
:28:06. > :28:07.and Gloucester the following week. Come and speak your mind,
:28:08. > :28:29.I'll give the details at the end. Next question from Daniel Chambers,
:28:30. > :28:35.please? Have the latest Donald Trump revelations made him unfit to be
:28:36. > :28:40.President? I don't think we needed the latest revelations to know that
:28:41. > :28:45.he was unfit. He's a psychopath. He is narcissistic. He can't relate to
:28:46. > :28:50.people. If you watch him wandering around that debate, it's an
:28:51. > :28:54.amazingly weird psychological experience but actually I almost
:28:55. > :28:58.began to feel pity for the man. He's an extreme loner, he doesn't have
:28:59. > :29:05.any friends, he's lived a sad, lonely life and he's got a ludicrous
:29:06. > :29:09.bunch. Of policies which means he probably won't get elected. There's
:29:10. > :29:13.still a bit of time before he could get elected. Imagine Vladimir Putin
:29:14. > :29:17.is planning an October surprise, he'd like him to get in, so I
:29:18. > :29:22.wouldn't be surprised if he hijacks the election in some way. There is a
:29:23. > :29:27.huge phenomenon which we neglect in the US. There is a lot of people who
:29:28. > :29:30.say that they don't know are actually going to vote for Trump.
:29:31. > :29:36.The two big questions are, if Trump is such a psychopath and lying,
:29:37. > :29:40.racist, sexist bully, why isn't Hillary way ahead and I'm not saying
:29:41. > :29:42.that because I think she's a terrible candidate, I think it
:29:43. > :29:49.speaks to the fact that America is very divided. If Trump loses, you've
:29:50. > :29:53.still got a massive problem, 60 million people who expressed a vote
:29:54. > :30:00.for him and feel that they are being completely neglected. The way to
:30:01. > :30:07.understand Trump, it's like King Leah, on the heath going completely
:30:08. > :30:13.mad and says, we should do such things, of which I know not yet.
:30:14. > :30:18.Like the Dylan Thomas he roar, he's raging.
:30:19. > :30:23.-- hero, he's raging. Isabelle Oakeshott? I found his
:30:24. > :30:29.comments on women absolutely repel lieutenant and I think they probably
:30:30. > :30:36.do disqualify him for the presidency -- repellant. What worries me is
:30:37. > :30:42.that, why has he got as far as he has? The reason is that people who
:30:43. > :30:46.back Trump in America are not looking for a messiah, they are not
:30:47. > :30:50.looking to vote for the Pope, they are looking for a battering ram,
:30:51. > :30:56.looking for something that crashes the establishment and it's a kind
:30:57. > :31:00.of, the way I see it, a kind of howl of protest against the sanitisation
:31:01. > :31:08.of political debate. People like the fact that he is prepared to go into
:31:09. > :31:12.debates that others wouldn't have. On immigration, he's throwing it all
:31:13. > :31:15.out there, being dangerous and provocative. It's deeply worrying
:31:16. > :31:19.but you have to look at what got him there in the first place.
:31:20. > :31:27.Emily Thornberry. Well, as a British politician, it's... We have to be
:31:28. > :31:33.very careful about telling American's how to vote - No, you
:31:34. > :31:35.don't. What we could do perhaps is rely, quote Her Majesty when she
:31:36. > :31:40.said before the Scottish referendum, "we would hope that they would think
:31:41. > :31:44.very carefully about it." Let me answer it, instead of answering as a
:31:45. > :31:50.British politician. Let me answer it as a woman. As a woman I thought his
:31:51. > :31:53.comments were completely disgusting and totally offensive and of course
:31:54. > :31:59.he shouldn't be American president. All right. The woman in the second
:32:00. > :32:03.row. How do you think our relationship with the States will
:32:04. > :32:07.change if he does become president? I think it's very difficult to know
:32:08. > :32:11.exactly what he's going to do in terms of his policies. I think he
:32:12. > :32:15.has thrived on getting as much attention as he can by saying
:32:16. > :32:20.outrageous things. I think that the difficulty that we have in relation
:32:21. > :32:24.to his attitude to women is that that is deeply ingrained. The idea
:32:25. > :32:28.that somebody could be president of America and have the attitude he
:32:29. > :32:31.does to half the population is completely inappropriate. Alex
:32:32. > :32:36.Salmond, do you share the view you heard around this table about why he
:32:37. > :32:43.got the Republican nomination, why he's not, sort of, already left the
:32:44. > :32:48.scene? He's riding an anti--establishment wave. Thus far
:32:49. > :32:54.he has been compared to King Lear and Her Majesty, the Queen. And
:32:55. > :33:00.Dillon Thomas' father as well. The best description I have read about
:33:01. > :33:05.Trump is an article in the FT which said that only drunks and sociopaths
:33:06. > :33:14.tweet at 3.00am in the morning. Loner. Trump is a teetotaller.
:33:15. > :33:19.That's, basically, what he is. I mean, all this stuff about the
:33:20. > :33:33.Muslims and Mexicans, I mean that was for the campaign. That was to
:33:34. > :33:36.get the Republican nomination. He's a sociopath, a demagogue. The he's
:33:37. > :33:40.not fit to be president for all of these reasons. He thinks you are a
:33:41. > :33:45.has been and totally irrelevant, which is what he said about you? I
:33:46. > :33:48.say you should judge people by your enemies. I'm proud to call Donald
:33:49. > :33:55.Trump one of my enemies. The woman there. Seeing as Trump is such a
:33:56. > :34:00.ridiculous psychopath, why are we letting someone from Britain who has
:34:01. > :34:05.appeared on a number of official stages and has affected a lot of
:34:06. > :34:08.people, Nigel Farage, who has led - well, hasn't led, has been a
:34:09. > :34:12.prominent figure in a campaign to leave the EU, why are we letting him
:34:13. > :34:20.appear on a stage with Donald Trump and coach Donald Trump? Why is there
:34:21. > :34:24.like no... We are nota dictatorship. Since Nigel Farage did that, Trump
:34:25. > :34:31.has been sinking like a stone. Farage might be our secret weapon!
:34:32. > :34:36.The guy with the jacket and glasses. You are starting to Chair the
:34:37. > :34:42.programme. He says you are in favour of Trump? I'm fed of politicians
:34:43. > :34:49.attacking Donald Trump calling him sexist. Hillary Clinton leaked
:34:50. > :34:54.emails, you calling him unfit is, quite frankly, ridiculous. I like
:34:55. > :34:56.him, he's nice. He will make America great again. He's the change
:34:57. > :35:00.candidate. He wants to improve things for
:35:01. > :35:03.African-Americans in the inner city areas. Hillary Clinton has done
:35:04. > :35:09.nothing as Secretary of State she's an appalling woman. Quite frankly,
:35:10. > :35:15.she is not fit. You at the back there. At least Hillary Clinton has
:35:16. > :35:21.held office, she was quite an effective Secretary of State. What
:35:22. > :35:25.has Trump done? He's got no political experience at all despite
:35:26. > :35:30.all the other faults he's got. Damian Green, is he unfit to be
:35:31. > :35:36.president? It's a seriously bad idea for Government ministers in another
:35:37. > :35:41.country to try and advise democratic friendly countries... I'm asking
:35:42. > :35:49.whether you think he is unfit. You are are not advising the American
:35:50. > :35:55.electorate. You don't need fob pomp pos about it? I will comment on the
:35:56. > :35:58.words. Partly because I think Isabel Oakeshott and Emily said as a woman
:35:59. > :36:03.she found those words he sado fencive. Can I say as a man I found
:36:04. > :36:14.them really offensive as well. APPLAUSE. -- pompous. We will go on
:36:15. > :36:22.to another question. Gabrielle Baigel. When playing games with my
:36:23. > :36:25.nieces and nef you nephews we sometimes need to make it the best
:36:26. > :36:31.of three if they're losing. How many Scottish referendums are we going to
:36:32. > :36:36.need? I will come to you in a moment, Damian Green? We have had a
:36:37. > :36:40.referendum in Scotland. The Scottish people very sensibly decided they
:36:41. > :36:43.were better off inside the United Kingdom. I think that's good for
:36:44. > :36:47.everyone else in the UK and certainly good for Scotland. All the
:36:48. > :36:51.leaders of the SNP at the time, including Alex, said this was a once
:36:52. > :36:56.in a generation, once-in-a-lifetime vote. They now seem to be changing
:36:57. > :37:01.their mind on that. I have great faith in the common sense of the
:37:02. > :37:04.Scottish people. They rejected separation when oil was $100 a
:37:05. > :37:09.barrel. They have twice as much reason to do it now oil is $50 a
:37:10. > :37:14.barrel. Frankly, you have to ask yourself - why is the SNP doing this
:37:15. > :37:18.now? This is a piece of Blueser to distract from the fact they are
:37:19. > :37:23.doing their day job, running the Scottish Government, very badly.
:37:24. > :37:27.School standards are falling in Scotland, there are fewer deprived
:37:28. > :37:32.children go to university in Scotland than they do in England and
:37:33. > :37:35.Wales. People are waiting longer for help from the police because of the
:37:36. > :37:38.Scottish Government. They are trying to distract the Scottish people from
:37:39. > :37:47.the recognition that actually as a Government they're very, very poor.
:37:48. > :37:51.APPLAUSE. What Nicola Sturgeon, the First Minister said today was, she
:37:52. > :37:55.is determined Scotland will have the ability to reconsider the question
:37:56. > :37:58.of independence. If she comes out saying we want another referendum,
:37:59. > :38:02.would the Westminster Government, the British Government agree to it?
:38:03. > :38:05.We haven't got anywhere fear. That's a process point. I'm saying they
:38:06. > :38:08.shouldn't. I don't think the Scottish people would. You I don't
:38:09. > :38:14.think there should be another referendum. Damian Green was reading
:38:15. > :38:18.from his Central Office brief about what he thinks of Scottish education
:38:19. > :38:21.and health service. Nicola Sturgeon was re-elected First Minister of
:38:22. > :38:27.Scotland m May this year with 47% of the vote. Now, that is a mandate
:38:28. > :38:31.that the Conservative Party could only dream about. You have a leader
:38:32. > :38:34.who has not been elected. Your previous leader got 37% of the vote.
:38:35. > :38:39.In that manifesto that she was elected on in May of this year,
:38:40. > :38:43.contained the words "that if there is a significant and material
:38:44. > :38:48.changing in circumstances, like Scotland being dragged out of the
:38:49. > :38:50.European Union against the wishes of the Scottish people, then the
:38:51. > :38:56.Scottish Parliament should have the right to hold another referendum. "
:38:57. > :39:01.On that manifesto she was re-elected First Minister with 47% of the vote.
:39:02. > :39:05.Now, that is an unimpeachable man daylight to say what Nicola Sturgeon
:39:06. > :39:09.said today. Will there be a referendum, in your view? I think
:39:10. > :39:13.what will happen is as follows. I think Nicola will put forward to the
:39:14. > :39:18.Prime Minister, Theresa May, representing interests of Scotland.
:39:19. > :39:22.A plan where by Scotland can retain its European connections in trade. A
:39:23. > :39:26.plan to defend European citizens in Scotland so they are not treated as
:39:27. > :39:33.bargaining chips or cards to be played. Their rights are respected.
:39:34. > :39:36.A plan to defend the social and employments rights of Scottish
:39:37. > :39:40.workers. That is the plan will go forward to Theresa May. The ball
:39:41. > :39:44.will be in her court to accommodate that within her Brexit negotiations.
:39:45. > :39:48.If she says yes to that, I think that will be Nicola discharging her
:39:49. > :39:51.mandate. If she says no I think there will be another referendum
:39:52. > :39:57.within two years. Which she will lose again? I don't think Nicola
:39:58. > :40:00.will be holding it... She wouldn't beholding it... Unless she thought
:40:01. > :40:07.she was going to win it. I think that's absolutely right. I started
:40:08. > :40:13.the referendum campaign in 2012 at 27% of the vote. We ended up at 45%.
:40:14. > :40:17.Now, I don't think Nicola Sturgeon is going to have too many
:40:18. > :40:21.compunctions starting on 48% of the vote, which is where the latest poll
:40:22. > :40:25.shows it. You win referendums in terms of the arguments you put
:40:26. > :40:30.forward and the movement of people. If you put forward a case which
:40:31. > :40:33.appeals to people's hopes for the future. That addresses the
:40:34. > :40:36.questions, then you can win a referendum. The woman in the front
:40:37. > :40:42.there. The argument that Damian put forward, she has no mandate for it,
:40:43. > :40:46.is absolutely and utterly ridiculous and ignores the results of the
:40:47. > :40:50.Scottish elections. If you think about the EU referendum, 48% of the
:40:51. > :40:54.people decided to stay, so in two or three years time if we don't get the
:40:55. > :40:59.deals or conditions we want there should be another referendum as to
:41:00. > :41:01.whether we should rejoin the EU There should be a referendum when a
:41:02. > :41:05.parliament votes for a referendum when it decides to put it to the
:41:06. > :41:10.people. If the Scottish Parliament, it would have to be the SNP and the
:41:11. > :41:15.Green Party, combine to have the majority - Is Brexit then no means
:41:16. > :41:18.no? They can put the matter to the people in the referendum. If a
:41:19. > :41:23.parliament votes for it, the people have a right to decide. I think we
:41:24. > :41:29.have the point. I'm amazing you are going on and boosting about this 47%
:41:30. > :41:33.which is apparently great for you, but when it's 52% for out that's not
:41:34. > :41:41.good enough. And, by the way... No the referendum... Alex, let her
:41:42. > :41:44.speak. I'm also amazed that Alex wants another referendum. The
:41:45. > :41:53.economic case for Scottish independence has been absolutely
:41:54. > :41:56.shredded. Scotland is more of economic basket case than Greece at
:41:57. > :42:01.the moment. How would you pay your Welfare Bill without us This lady
:42:02. > :42:04.was complaining about Project Fear. Project Reality is what we have
:42:05. > :42:13.here. That's what you need to listen to. OK. If Scotland wasn't a viable
:42:14. > :42:16.extremely prosperous country with amazing natural human resources the
:42:17. > :42:21.Treasury and the Conservative Party wouldn't be anxious to hold on to
:42:22. > :42:24.us, I can tell you that. You asked how many referendums do we need, the
:42:25. > :42:28.answer is as many as Alex Salmond and the SNP say they want. It seems
:42:29. > :42:32.that losing that referendum was the best thing that happened to the SNP.
:42:33. > :42:35.They may have preferred to have won and have an independent Scotland
:42:36. > :42:41.they have a foothold in Westminster. They have such a deeply entrenched
:42:42. > :42:44.in Scotland in Scotland that Labour have collapsed in Scotland another
:42:45. > :42:46.referendum is inevitable. I was surprised that Nicola Sturgeon
:42:47. > :42:52.announced there would be a referendum today. I thought the
:42:53. > :42:56.polls shouldn't there hadn't been a great up tick in independence, 38%.
:42:57. > :43:00.I thought it would take a bit more time. I think eventually you will
:43:01. > :43:04.win your life-long dream of an independent Scotland and a broken
:43:05. > :43:08.United Kingdom will be fulfilled. The forces pulling Scotland away,
:43:09. > :43:13.social, political, demographic from the rest of the country, the rest of
:43:14. > :43:18.England, are so strong and cannot be tolerated. Whether he gets the
:43:19. > :43:22.referendum or not, it might be ten years, but eventually Scotland is
:43:23. > :43:28.leaving, we better get used to it. You sir. Scotland have no plan for
:43:29. > :43:33.the currency, and no guarantee of being able to reenter the EU. You
:43:34. > :43:38.need a deficit down to 3% of GDP. You can ask the same question, you
:43:39. > :43:44.will get the same answer. You in the front. The prospect of the country
:43:45. > :43:47.being broken up with Scottish potential independence, does the
:43:48. > :43:51.panel think that referendums should be put to the English, the Welsh and
:43:52. > :43:56.the northernish Irish as to whether they want the United Kingdom to
:43:57. > :44:01.disintergrate? Serious implications if Scotland leaves the Union? Emily
:44:02. > :44:06.Thornberry? I want us to be United Kingdom. I think that we are a great
:44:07. > :44:11.country when we are united. I don't want us to splinter off. I think we
:44:12. > :44:15.are who we are because we stick together. And, I would do everything
:44:16. > :44:21.I can to to keep our country together. All right. I will move on.
:44:22. > :44:27.We only have 10 minutes left. Rebecca Reece, your question. Is the
:44:28. > :44:31.current Parliamentary Labour Party an effective opposition to the
:44:32. > :44:35.Government? Are they an effective opposition? No, it the short answer.
:44:36. > :44:38.In the last week it's changed. I have respect for Emily, she's in
:44:39. > :44:42.what she has done with these 170 questions. It's the first time under
:44:43. > :44:46.Jeremy Corbyn it looked like Labour is doing what it is meant to do.
:44:47. > :44:52.Labour has so many problems it's ridiculous. Your question may be
:44:53. > :44:57.motivated by a poll this week. In England where most marginal seats
:44:58. > :45:01.are, Labour is 25% behind. Over 65s, the most people likely to vote, 48%
:45:02. > :45:06.behind. No-one to the left of Tony Blair has won an election in Britain
:45:07. > :45:11.since 1976, right. If at the last election the problem was a left-wing
:45:12. > :45:14.leader who wasn't trusted with the economy,, having a more left-wing
:45:15. > :45:20.leader who is less trusted on the economy isn't necessarily going to
:45:21. > :45:24.get Labour elected. I believe that despite being in parliament since
:45:25. > :45:27.1983 and Emily has been in parliament 11 years this Labour
:45:28. > :45:33.movement and momentum don't believe in parliament. John McDonnell was
:45:34. > :45:35.asked if he achieved social change. He said three ways, on the streets,
:45:36. > :45:38.trade unions and there is parliament. He said don't expect
:45:39. > :45:43.change from parliament to come any time soon. If you think about it,
:45:44. > :45:48.the thing about Labour, what is interesting, they refer to David
:45:49. > :45:53.Miliband, lost under Ed Miliband and governed by Ralf Miliband. Who you
:45:54. > :46:01.guys may know. Wrote a back in 1969 calledkm parliamentary Socialism. I
:46:02. > :46:05.read it so you don't have to. If you want to achieve socialism you do it
:46:06. > :46:11.true the streets. Part of the reason Jeremy Corbyn is relaxed that 182 of
:46:12. > :46:16.his MPs say they have no confidence in him is because he doesn't care
:46:17. > :46:19.about achieving power. That is the main driving reason why they are no
:46:20. > :46:32.good in opposition right now. The question wasn't, can they become
:46:33. > :46:36.a Government, the question was, are they an effective opposition?
:46:37. > :46:40.Emily's provided opposition this week, she's been on Channel 4 and...
:46:41. > :46:44.I'll come to Emily in a moment. Alex Salmond? Labour haven't been an
:46:45. > :46:49.effective opposition and that's self-evident from the last year, but
:46:50. > :46:52.I rather agree. I think the Europeanish eye is going to put
:46:53. > :46:58.enormous pressure on the Government and we'll find out if Theresa May
:46:59. > :47:06.leads an effective Government. I'm not so sure about the idea that
:47:07. > :47:08.Jeremy Corbyn's so left-wing that people wouldn't respond to it. I
:47:09. > :47:14.mean, I don't think Jeremy's politics have been the problem, it's
:47:15. > :47:19.been the competence. It's been the lack of ability to lead in
:47:20. > :47:23.Parliament and if that can be changed I'm not certain that Labour
:47:24. > :47:28.couldn't provide a much, much better show than they are having. In terms
:47:29. > :47:32.of balance on politics, the SNP won 56 out of the 59 Westminster seats
:47:33. > :47:37.in Scotland, the Tory party won one and Labour won one. Now, when I
:47:38. > :47:40.started out in politics, I didn't think I'd ever see a situation when
:47:41. > :47:45.the Labour Party won just the wound seat in Scotland but you should
:47:46. > :47:49.perhaps think about this Damian, that Ukip have one seat in the UK
:47:50. > :47:52.and we are in a situation in Scotland where the party with one
:47:53. > :47:55.seat, the Tory party, actually is running the country on major
:47:56. > :47:58.decisions, so people should think about how they would feel if Ukip
:47:59. > :48:02.were currently in Government with one seat and then you will
:48:03. > :48:07.understand where Scotland is going. You in the front? We have all
:48:08. > :48:10.unanimously agreed that the Labour Party is riddled with divisions,
:48:11. > :48:17.does the panel think there is a possibility of a split? A split in
:48:18. > :48:24.the Labour Party? Emily Thornberry? The Labour Party is a coalition on
:48:25. > :48:30.the left, just like Please don't say... Coalition on the right. We
:48:31. > :48:34.have huge divisions. Oh. The next time we hear a Labour politician...
:48:35. > :48:38.Can I get a word in edgeways, please. Tell her to stop talking,
:48:39. > :48:42.it's nonsense, you have got nothing in common with them. Let her answer.
:48:43. > :48:45.We have tuitions and the Tories have divisions and unlike the Tories who
:48:46. > :48:50.fight their battles in closed rooms, we fight in the press. You can see
:48:51. > :48:54.we fight in the press. With we supposed to be impressed by that? .
:48:55. > :48:59.It's not impressive and it has to stop because actually you know what
:49:00. > :49:04.unites us is so much more than what divides us. This's untry. We are a
:49:05. > :49:09.divided country. It's important we hold this Government to account.
:49:10. > :49:13.It's outrageous the way in which they have not had regional economic
:49:14. > :49:16.policies and way they have not been investing in some of the poorer
:49:17. > :49:20.communities up and down this country and they have essentially turned
:49:21. > :49:24.their back on them. We are a divided country in terms of those who're
:49:25. > :49:28.doing badly out of this Government, they're doing much worse. We looked
:49:29. > :49:32.today at the results in the Health Service and what is happening there
:49:33. > :49:36.and the way in which on all the stats, the Health Service is in a
:49:37. > :49:39.much worse place... What has this to do with you being an effective
:49:40. > :49:42.opposition? APPLAUSE.
:49:43. > :49:47.OK, so one of the things that one has to do as an opposition is point
:49:48. > :49:49.these things out, despite the barracking from the Daily Mail or
:49:50. > :49:54.anywhere else, and we have to be true to what it is we stand up for
:49:55. > :49:57.and we have to make clear there is an alternative because there is one
:49:58. > :50:01.and Labour can be that. What, as I say, we have some differences, of
:50:02. > :50:04.course we do, but I'll tell you what, it's nothing compared to the
:50:05. > :50:09.differences you are about to see when it comes to Brexit and the
:50:10. > :50:13.party. No, there are arguments that we have, but what we have to do at
:50:14. > :50:18.this stage is pull together and remember what it is that we have in
:50:19. > :50:26.common and we can be and we must be an effective opposition to this
:50:27. > :50:30.appalling... Enough, enough. The man in charge of Brexit, your Brexit
:50:31. > :50:34.Shadow secretary, himself said you can't offer effective opposition
:50:35. > :50:40.without a change of leader, so how can you offer that? Can I just say,
:50:41. > :50:43.I mean Jeremy has the advantage of being a good and decent man. And he
:50:44. > :50:48.is a good and decent man. APPLAUSE.
:50:49. > :50:52.And what we need to do is, the Labour Party is a collective
:50:53. > :50:58.endeavour, it's not one person, we are in fact the largest political
:50:59. > :51:03.party in Western Europe. We are now nearly 600,000-strong. We are a very
:51:04. > :51:07.large and Democratic Party and we need to make sure that the
:51:08. > :51:10.Parliamentary Labour Party steps up, pulls together and actually puts
:51:11. > :51:14.forward the arguments because there are a huge number of arguments and
:51:15. > :51:19.there is an alternative and we need to get on with our job.
:51:20. > :51:24.APPLAUSE. OK, let's hear from someone about
:51:25. > :51:29.whether they think Labour is an effective opposition? You? Jeremy
:51:30. > :51:34.Corbyn talks about loyalty and I'm sorry, but over the 30 years of his
:51:35. > :51:42.career, he's shown complete disloyalty to Labour because he
:51:43. > :51:48.voted against the whip 500 times was it, so where is this professionalism
:51:49. > :51:53.and loyalty that we are meant to show to Corbyn? You? I want all the
:51:54. > :51:58.parties to care more about what's going to be happening in Europe and
:51:59. > :52:01.our relationship with Europe whatever the relationship, rather
:52:02. > :52:04.than this in-fighting between parties because so many more
:52:05. > :52:09.important issues are at stake. They need to spend time and energy
:52:10. > :52:15.sorting that problem out than fighting and other referendums.
:52:16. > :52:19.Rebecca, what do you think? You asked the question? As a member of
:52:20. > :52:24.the Labour Party, I feel quite let down by the Parliamentary Labour
:52:25. > :52:28.Party and I think large parts of the public should as well because the
:52:29. > :52:32.resignations by the Shadow Cabinet after Brexit real hi allowed the
:52:33. > :52:35.Conservative Party to hide their own internal divisions and they've got
:52:36. > :52:37.their own huge divisions over Brexit but all that's being shown are
:52:38. > :52:43.Labour's divisions. APPLAUSE.
:52:44. > :52:47.Damian Green? I was in opposition when the Tory party was in a bad
:52:48. > :52:54.place in the early years of this century. Nothing is like the despair
:52:55. > :53:00.on the Labour benches now. Trust me, Labour's in a much worse place. I
:53:01. > :53:04.want to pick up one point, part of the sort of Labour Hymnsheet that
:53:05. > :53:10.the Tories are much more divided than we are. It's demonstrably not
:53:11. > :53:12.true. People on either side of the referendum are now sitting on
:53:13. > :53:17.Cabinet. I'm in Cabinet with Liam Fox and David Davis and we are
:53:18. > :53:23.arguing a future about how we can get the best from the Brexit vote.
:53:24. > :53:27.You can't agree. We will agree. The point is, we are sitting in Cabinet
:53:28. > :53:33.together. Your Shadow Cabinet won't have it because they won't serve in
:53:34. > :53:37.it. Hilary Benn, Yvette Cooper, Chuka Umunna. You have got people
:53:38. > :53:44.that have been Kimmed out? We've got nobody... Nicky Morgan. Nobody who
:53:45. > :53:50.was asked to serve who refused. They just kicked them out. How many
:53:51. > :53:56.people did you sack? Ten? Emily, apart from you, most of the talented
:53:57. > :54:01.Labour politicians in Britain are refusing to serve in Jeremy
:54:02. > :54:05.Corbyn's... Boris Johnson was there ready and Michael Gove popped up and
:54:06. > :54:08.said I'm not backing him any more, he's unfit. Boris is... I'm in the
:54:09. > :54:14.Cabinet. APPLAUSE.
:54:15. > :54:19.ALL SPEAK AT ONCE. Michael Gove isn't in the Cabinet.
:54:20. > :54:24.We have a united Cabinet that represents all views. Most of the
:54:25. > :54:28.talented Labour politicians won't even serve under Jeremy Corbyn and
:54:29. > :54:30.unless and until you get talented people on board, I'm afraid you will
:54:31. > :54:36.continue to be facing the opposition.
:54:37. > :54:41.You with the spectacles on? Given the influence that momentum appears
:54:42. > :54:45.to have within the Labour Party, has too much momentum been generated so
:54:46. > :54:50.that it's now out of control? Isabelle Oakeshott? Emmy goes on
:54:51. > :54:57.about Jeremy being a good, decent man. My question is, is he
:54:58. > :55:03.honourable? Is it honourable to remain leader when you can't read
:55:04. > :55:07.your own Parliamentary party. If you can't head your own party, you
:55:08. > :55:10.cannot be an effective opposition. The honourable thing would have been
:55:11. > :55:15.for him to quit a very long time ago.
:55:16. > :55:22.APPLAUSE. Can you pick up on his point about
:55:23. > :55:28.Momentum? Just to repeat the question. Given the influence that
:55:29. > :55:31.Momentum appears to have, is it now that too much momentum has been
:55:32. > :55:35.generated so that it's now out of control? Absolutely because Momentum
:55:36. > :55:39.doesn't represent the views of the majority of Labour MPs and the
:55:40. > :55:43.result is that those Labour MPs are totally out of sync with the party
:55:44. > :55:50.members and cannot provide an effect I opposition and that is untenable
:55:51. > :55:55.-- effective opposition. The Labour MPs should be more in tune with the
:55:56. > :55:59.Labour membership. You are applauding, are you a Momentum
:56:00. > :56:07.supporter, Sir? Can you explain? Yes. Jeremy's just received his
:56:08. > :56:14.second landslide victory. Coming back to what Isabelle says, yes, 192
:56:15. > :56:20.MPs resigned. He's just been voted in by 300,000 people to be leader of
:56:21. > :56:26.the party. That is a mandate. And coming back to what the lady said a
:56:27. > :56:31.minute ago about disloyalty and him voting against the whip, he voted
:56:32. > :56:35.against PFI, he voted against student tuition fees, he voted
:56:36. > :56:40.against the Iraq war. On every one of those if you go back through
:56:41. > :56:48.history, the that joort, if not all, he's been on the right side of
:56:49. > :56:54.history -- the majority. Sorry I interrupted you earlier.
:56:55. > :56:57.It's just not true to say that what unites you is greater than what
:56:58. > :56:59.divides you. It's not true. A lot of people who call themselves Labour
:57:00. > :57:07.moderates came into politics because they want to save the reformed
:57:08. > :57:13.capital it. . Jeremy Corbyn wants to replace... People have been miscast
:57:14. > :57:16.in the media. It's completely in a different place politically to the
:57:17. > :57:19.Parliamentary Labour Party. You have interrupted me, I'm interrupting you
:57:20. > :57:24.because you are just talking nonsense here. Of course people
:57:25. > :57:28.stand for Parliament who're a part of the Parliamentary democracy we
:57:29. > :57:33.believe in a form of capitalism which is ameliorated by having an
:57:34. > :57:37.economy which is a mixed economy. We believe in the state, we believe in
:57:38. > :57:41.making sure that we have a strong country but we look after the poor
:57:42. > :57:47.and the weak and, of course, we are a united country. That is what pulls
:57:48. > :57:53.us together. The united party you meant, not a united country? We lead
:57:54. > :57:55.a united country around a party. I have to stop you there. Our hour is
:57:56. > :58:01.up. We're in Hartlepool next week
:58:02. > :58:03.with former Greek finance minster Yanis Varoufakis,
:58:04. > :58:06.the man who once owned the Daily Telegraph Conrad Black
:58:07. > :58:10.and Ken Clarke for the Tories. The following week
:58:11. > :58:14.we'll be in Gloucester. Come and join us, Hartlepool
:58:15. > :58:17.or Gloucester, go to our website, If you are listening tonight
:58:18. > :58:33.on Radio 5Live, the debate goes My thanks to all our panel here and
:58:34. > :58:38.to all of you who came to this superb museum at the Royal Air Force
:58:39. > :58:49.in Hendon. Until next week on Question Time, good night.