0:00:01 > 0:00:04Welcome to Question Time. Tonight, we're in Gloucester.
0:00:11 > 0:00:12And with us tonight,
0:00:12 > 0:00:15the Conservative Business Secretary, in Japan recently for talks
0:00:15 > 0:00:19with the carmaker Nissan to reassure them about Brexit,
0:00:19 > 0:00:21Greg Clark.
0:00:21 > 0:00:24Labour's Shadow Secretary for Brexit,
0:00:24 > 0:00:26the former director of public prosecutions,
0:00:26 > 0:00:29promoted to the Shadow Cabinet one year after becoming an MP,
0:00:29 > 0:00:31Keir Starmer.
0:00:31 > 0:00:35The president of the Liberal Democrats, Sal Brinton.
0:00:35 > 0:00:39Dia Chakravarty, the political director of the Taxpayers' Alliance,
0:00:39 > 0:00:42which campaigns for lower taxes and spending.
0:00:42 > 0:00:44And Ken Loach, whose film I, Daniel Blake,
0:00:44 > 0:00:47about the hardship of living on benefits,
0:00:47 > 0:00:50has just won him the Palm d'Or at Cannes.
0:01:01 > 0:01:04And, as always, remember, you can join in the debate,
0:01:04 > 0:01:05everything that's said here,
0:01:05 > 0:01:10either on Facebook or through Twitter, or text us on 83981.
0:01:10 > 0:01:13That said, let's have our first question from Clare...
0:01:13 > 0:01:16Sorry, Ellie Mads... Mads...
0:01:16 > 0:01:18I don't know whether you'd like to call it
0:01:18 > 0:01:19Mat-SA-nova or Matsa-NO-va.
0:01:19 > 0:01:23- Either way.- Or either.- Either. - Either. OK. Ellie, anyway.
0:01:23 > 0:01:27In light of today's positive economic news,
0:01:27 > 0:01:30is the UK's post-Brexit economy in rude health?
0:01:30 > 0:01:34So, the positive economic news being Nissan's investment, of course.
0:01:34 > 0:01:38And growth rate being slightly more than was forecast.
0:01:38 > 0:01:41So, are things looking better? Keir Starmer.
0:01:41 > 0:01:45Well, the first thing I want to say is that it's fantastic news
0:01:45 > 0:01:48for Sunderland and the Northeast that Nissan have agreed
0:01:48 > 0:01:50to invest for as long as they have.
0:01:50 > 0:01:52I think for everyone who works at Nissan,
0:01:52 > 0:01:55for their families and their communities, this is really
0:01:55 > 0:01:58good news and we shouldn't make party political points about this.
0:01:58 > 0:02:00This is good news for those communities.
0:02:00 > 0:02:02What persuaded them, do you think?
0:02:02 > 0:02:05Well, this is the really significant question.
0:02:05 > 0:02:08This is, I think, where the debate needs to go, because only
0:02:08 > 0:02:12a few weeks ago, those leading Nissan were saying that they
0:02:12 > 0:02:15were very concerned about Brexit, and they would be...
0:02:15 > 0:02:18they should be able to trade on the same terms, the same fluidity,
0:02:18 > 0:02:20the way they put it.
0:02:20 > 0:02:23Of course, the terms at the moment are the single market.
0:02:23 > 0:02:27Today they said they've had assurances from the Government.
0:02:27 > 0:02:29And that's helped them make their decision.
0:02:29 > 0:02:32And I think we need to know, what are those assurances?
0:02:32 > 0:02:36Was the assurance that public money would be used if tariffs come in?
0:02:36 > 0:02:39If not that, was there an assurance that they, at least,
0:02:39 > 0:02:41will stay in the single market in some way?
0:02:41 > 0:02:44And then, there's a whole series of other questions, which is,
0:02:44 > 0:02:47what about other manufacturers, other car businesses,
0:02:47 > 0:02:50other businesses up and down the country who are concerned?
0:02:50 > 0:02:52Now, I'm not against Nissan having an assurance.
0:02:52 > 0:02:54Of course, I think this is really good.
0:02:54 > 0:02:55But other businesses,
0:02:55 > 0:02:57other manufacturers need an assurance as well.
0:02:57 > 0:03:00And the Government needs to answer the question, what was said
0:03:00 > 0:03:04to Nissan, and will it be said to others?
0:03:04 > 0:03:07And how long is the queue of manufacturers and other businesses
0:03:07 > 0:03:09that are going to get assurances?
0:03:09 > 0:03:12Because we haven't had any transparency.
0:03:12 > 0:03:13And this has been the problem.
0:03:13 > 0:03:16And we have to accept the outcome of the referendum,
0:03:16 > 0:03:21and respect the vote. We have to do that. That means we're exiting.
0:03:21 > 0:03:26The real question now is on what terms? What's the basic deal?
0:03:26 > 0:03:29And this is where the Government absolutely refuses
0:03:29 > 0:03:31- to be pinned down.- Well, you don't know. He's sitting here.
0:03:31 > 0:03:34He's the man that went to Japan. He may fill you in.
0:03:34 > 0:03:36What was said to Nissan to persuade them?
0:03:36 > 0:03:38Because they said they wanted the same terms.
0:03:38 > 0:03:39Well, let's hear from him.
0:03:43 > 0:03:46Well, thanks. The first thing to say is that this is fantastic news.
0:03:46 > 0:03:48And, actually,
0:03:48 > 0:03:52the big backing that was given was to the workforce in that plant.
0:03:52 > 0:03:55It is one of the most efficient car plants in the world.
0:03:55 > 0:03:57It is a fantastic workforce,
0:03:57 > 0:04:01and they deserve the backing that they've got. It is...
0:04:01 > 0:04:04It's also obviously good for the whole country,
0:04:04 > 0:04:07it's good for the car manufacturing sector.
0:04:07 > 0:04:10I'll tell you, the discussions that we had with Nissan,
0:04:10 > 0:04:15I had last week in Japan, and earlier in the summer as well,
0:04:15 > 0:04:19were about what the Government's intentions were
0:04:19 > 0:04:24for the automotive sector. One of our most important in the country.
0:04:24 > 0:04:30And what we were able to have was a recognition,
0:04:30 > 0:04:34an endorsement on the part of Nissan, that this,
0:04:34 > 0:04:36the industrial strategy that we are developing,
0:04:36 > 0:04:39which is something that, of course, in Japan is how they've
0:04:39 > 0:04:43proceeded for some time, now that we are pursuing one,
0:04:43 > 0:04:46that they can have the long-term confidence that we're going to
0:04:46 > 0:04:52invest in the innovation, in skills, in research, to make sure that
0:04:52 > 0:04:57the whole sector is going to prosper in the future, as it has done now.
0:04:57 > 0:04:59So, no assurances on the money side?
0:04:59 > 0:05:03No assurances about public money if things go wrong?
0:05:03 > 0:05:04No assurances about
0:05:04 > 0:05:06- the single market, none of that? - They set the same terms.
0:05:06 > 0:05:09We had a very constructive engagement.
0:05:09 > 0:05:10And what they said,
0:05:10 > 0:05:12and they've been very clear today and the Nissan executives
0:05:12 > 0:05:16have said that they have confidence in the direction of
0:05:16 > 0:05:21the Government in using its industrial strategy to commit to
0:05:21 > 0:05:23the competitiveness of this very important sector.
0:05:23 > 0:05:28- And it's a fantastic endorsement.- It is...- Keir mentioned other sectors.
0:05:28 > 0:05:32The great advantage, it seems to me, of having an industrial strategy
0:05:32 > 0:05:36that causes you to think ahead is for the long-term.
0:05:36 > 0:05:38You can't have a short-term strategy,
0:05:38 > 0:05:40it's a contradiction in terms.
0:05:40 > 0:05:43- Hang on, what's an industrial strategy?- An industrial strategy is...- Just briefly.
0:05:43 > 0:05:46- I mean, does it apply to everybody with a business here?- Sure, it...
0:05:46 > 0:05:49- Do they all have an industrial strategy?- So the industrial strategy sets out
0:05:49 > 0:05:53the Government's policies for the long term, to give certainty and stability to investors
0:05:53 > 0:05:56as to how we are going to have a business environment that is
0:05:56 > 0:05:59supportive, how we are going to build on our strengths,
0:05:59 > 0:06:02such as in innovation, which has been particularly important for Nissan.
0:06:02 > 0:06:04They've expressed enthusiasm.
0:06:04 > 0:06:08The other companies that I met in Japan and the companies that
0:06:08 > 0:06:12I speak to all the time here, they are incredibly enthusiastic
0:06:12 > 0:06:16about working with us to develop the confidence
0:06:16 > 0:06:20over the long term that they will operate in a stable framework...
0:06:20 > 0:06:24All right. Keir... OK, I'll come to you. Keir, does that answer your question?
0:06:24 > 0:06:25You can't get away with this.
0:06:25 > 0:06:29They were absolutely clear we want to trade on the same terms, the same fluidity.
0:06:29 > 0:06:33They now say they're assured, they've got an assurance.
0:06:33 > 0:06:35What have they been told?
0:06:35 > 0:06:37If you're investing in that way, they've been told something.
0:06:37 > 0:06:40It's not just a chat about an industrial strategy,
0:06:40 > 0:06:44they want to know, was it the same terms, or not? If it is, we're in, if not, we're out.
0:06:44 > 0:06:47Something's been said, they're in. That's good.
0:06:47 > 0:06:50But you can't hide it from us and from the audience.
0:06:50 > 0:06:51You've got to tell us.
0:06:56 > 0:06:59Keir, I was up those discussions, I led those discussions and
0:06:59 > 0:07:02I can tell you, that actually, when you have
0:07:02 > 0:07:07a relationship with an important employer, like Nissan, over 30 years,
0:07:07 > 0:07:10actually, they do want to know that you are committed for the long-term,
0:07:10 > 0:07:13and if you look at what everyone in Nissan has said,
0:07:13 > 0:07:16from the president down, what they wanted to hear was two things.
0:07:16 > 0:07:20One was that in our negotiations with the European Union,
0:07:20 > 0:07:24we were going to take a constructive approach, recognising that in
0:07:24 > 0:07:28the motor industry especially, there's a strong, common interest.
0:07:28 > 0:07:33We do a lot of trade with the continent, in components, for example,
0:07:33 > 0:07:37and vice versa, that we would look to, to find the common ground there
0:07:37 > 0:07:40- and that we would look to have a good deal.- Right.
0:07:40 > 0:07:42They were assured of that.
0:07:42 > 0:07:45But secondly, that we would give a long-term commitment to the
0:07:45 > 0:07:49competitiveness of the automotive sector. We were able to do that.
0:07:49 > 0:07:52And not only did they announce that the Qashqai is going to be
0:07:52 > 0:07:55built in Sunderland, but they announced that the X-Trail
0:07:55 > 0:07:56is going to be built there as well.
0:07:56 > 0:07:59OK, OK, well, you've said what you were going to say.
0:07:59 > 0:08:02The woman there with the spectacles on, in the second row from the back.
0:08:02 > 0:08:06- Yes, you.- The question was, are we in rude health?
0:08:06 > 0:08:08And obviously, the news about Nissan is great.
0:08:08 > 0:08:13But that aside, the real world, for the likes of me,
0:08:13 > 0:08:17running a company, is that we've had to absorb, since July,
0:08:17 > 0:08:22a 50% increase on all our imports, having bought in dollars,
0:08:22 > 0:08:25which we haven't been able to pass on to our customers,
0:08:25 > 0:08:28which will ultimately be passed on, so inflation is going to happen.
0:08:28 > 0:08:31The figures that have come out today are retrospective and they
0:08:31 > 0:08:34don't tell us what's going to happen in the future. So it isn't all rosy.
0:08:34 > 0:08:38And I agree that what has happened at Nissan is good news,
0:08:38 > 0:08:41- but it is actually... It's not a level playing field.- Yeah.
0:08:41 > 0:08:45- Do you think a special deal was done?- Oh, most definitely.
0:08:45 > 0:08:48- Most definitely.- Most definitely? - I'm an exporter.
0:08:48 > 0:08:54In fact, it falls into my question. You know? Will I get the same deal?
0:08:54 > 0:08:56- Yeah, exactly.- All right. Ken Loach.
0:08:56 > 0:08:58I think we are none the wiser.
0:08:58 > 0:09:02We've heard political jargon and no substance.
0:09:07 > 0:09:09I think it's very interesting,
0:09:09 > 0:09:11- there's clearly a subsidy being promised...- No.
0:09:11 > 0:09:14Assurances are nothing without money on the table.
0:09:14 > 0:09:16If there's an assurance, they'll have some money attached.
0:09:16 > 0:09:20How strange, then, that we have no money
0:09:20 > 0:09:27to rescue social care for people who need help.
0:09:27 > 0:09:31We have no money for the cash-strapped NHS,
0:09:31 > 0:09:34so the doctors have to work even harder for the same amount of money,
0:09:34 > 0:09:38plainly that won't happen, plainly the NHS is being driven
0:09:38 > 0:09:42towards privatisation, so that part of it is not in good health.
0:09:42 > 0:09:46But how about if we look at the economy from the other end up?
0:09:46 > 0:09:51How about the economy for the people who are on zero-hours contracts?
0:09:51 > 0:09:54How about the economy for people who work for agencies and they
0:09:54 > 0:09:57are rung up one day and they say, "Yes, you've got work today," and
0:09:57 > 0:10:01they ring up the next day and say, "Sorry, no work today for you," and they can't
0:10:01 > 0:10:05plan their lives, they can't start a family, they can't buy a house?
0:10:05 > 0:10:09Their lives are in chaos. What's the economy like for them?
0:10:09 > 0:10:11I'll tell you someone who it is good for.
0:10:11 > 0:10:16There's one CEO working for a big multinational company.
0:10:16 > 0:10:21He earns in 45 minutes what the average worker will earn in a year.
0:10:21 > 0:10:25- What the average worker will earn in a year, he earns in 45 minutes. - Right, right.
0:10:25 > 0:10:29The economy's very good for him. It's not so good for everybody else.
0:10:29 > 0:10:31- Can I just...- No, in a second.
0:10:31 > 0:10:32I'll come back to you.
0:10:32 > 0:10:34Dia Chakravarty.
0:10:35 > 0:10:40Well, I think Greg's task would be a lot easier if the Government
0:10:40 > 0:10:44was telling us a little bit about its plan to do with Brexit.
0:10:44 > 0:10:47Nobody's asking for a running commentary,
0:10:47 > 0:10:49but I think it is entirely possible and it is necessary for
0:10:49 > 0:10:53the Government to share a little bit of the "blue-sky thinking",
0:10:53 > 0:10:55if you forgive that jargon, with the rest of us,
0:10:55 > 0:10:57so we actually know what is going on.
0:10:57 > 0:11:00It would help companies, like the lady over there, just to plan.
0:11:00 > 0:11:03It would certainly inject a little bit of much-needed certainty
0:11:03 > 0:11:06that the city badly requires to build on and I just don't
0:11:06 > 0:11:09understand why the Government is not doing it.
0:11:09 > 0:11:12My suspicion is that the Government doesn't know yet.
0:11:12 > 0:11:16And I think part of the reason for that, is the fault of the previous
0:11:16 > 0:11:20administration as well, which made absolutely
0:11:20 > 0:11:23no plan for a Brexit vote, because it was unbelievably arrogant
0:11:23 > 0:11:28in thinking that was never going to happen.
0:11:31 > 0:11:33And I think that's what we're seeing here.
0:11:33 > 0:11:36I understand the arguments around commercial sensitivities and all that,
0:11:36 > 0:11:39so, as I say, not a running commentary,
0:11:39 > 0:11:41but please tell us what the big plan is.
0:11:41 > 0:11:44Well, what kind of thing would you like to know,
0:11:44 > 0:11:47that he hasn't told you already about giving assurances to Nissan?
0:11:47 > 0:11:49- What sort of...- Do you want to know, like Ken says,
0:11:49 > 0:11:51where the money was promised? Do you want to know that?
0:11:51 > 0:11:53- I wants to know... - How much was promised?
0:11:53 > 0:11:56I want to know what sort of Brexit we are looking at.
0:11:56 > 0:11:59Not a hard or soft or devilled,
0:11:59 > 0:12:02but is it going to be a clean Brexit, is what we want to know.
0:12:02 > 0:12:05- I think people want to know that. - This is critically important.
0:12:05 > 0:12:08The future of everybody in this room and the whole country is at stake,
0:12:08 > 0:12:11because the terms we come out on could be radically different.
0:12:11 > 0:12:14They'll affect everybody who works, every business.
0:12:14 > 0:12:15You're entitled to know,
0:12:15 > 0:12:18are we heading in this direction or that direction?
0:12:18 > 0:12:22- Of course, not a running commentary, you know, not...- Sal Brinton. - But some clarity.
0:12:22 > 0:12:26- Sal Brinton.- I mean, that's absolutely right and it's extremely worrying that...
0:12:26 > 0:12:31I mean, well done to Greg and the Government in protecting the jobs
0:12:31 > 0:12:34in Sunderland with Nissan, absolutely no doubt about that.
0:12:34 > 0:12:39But what's going to happen next is that the 4,000 workers at
0:12:39 > 0:12:42Airbus at Filton who were warned that their jobs might be at
0:12:42 > 0:12:47risk with an Exit vote, and down the M5 in Yeovil,
0:12:47 > 0:12:50there's a real risk to Westland Helicopter jobs.
0:12:50 > 0:12:53Are there going to be special arrangements for all of them?
0:12:53 > 0:12:57And then the key issue is, how does that affect negotiations with
0:12:57 > 0:13:00Europe on the single market and the issue about, you know,
0:13:00 > 0:13:03should there be tariffs or not tariffs?
0:13:03 > 0:13:06We do need to know these things, because it's absolutely at
0:13:06 > 0:13:09the heart of hard Brexit and soft Brexit.
0:13:09 > 0:13:11Let's ask the members of the audience what they want.
0:13:11 > 0:13:15- What kind Brexit do you want, sir? - What sort of Brexit?
0:13:15 > 0:13:18That wasn't the question I was going to ask. But, er...
0:13:18 > 0:13:22- Well, you ask the question you were going to ask.- Thank you.
0:13:22 > 0:13:26What I wanted to say is, that whether Nissan were told anything
0:13:26 > 0:13:29that the rest of us haven't been told or not,
0:13:29 > 0:13:32the Government needs to hear that they are acting in
0:13:32 > 0:13:35a very secretive way, that's the way it comes across.
0:13:35 > 0:13:40As most of the panel is saying, we all need to know what is going on.
0:13:40 > 0:13:44We all have businesses that we need to plan for and the Government
0:13:44 > 0:13:48seems to be being dragged kicking and screaming and they've changed their position.
0:13:48 > 0:13:51I'm a solicitor, I thought I understood the constitution,
0:13:51 > 0:13:55and only when the matter came before the courts did the Government
0:13:55 > 0:13:57change its position, it certainly appeared to,
0:13:57 > 0:14:01in terms of whether Parliament would actually get a say in these
0:14:01 > 0:14:04incredibly important decisions that they seem to be making.
0:14:04 > 0:14:06But what kind of thing do you want to know?
0:14:06 > 0:14:08Well, we want to know what the future holds for us,
0:14:08 > 0:14:12because we want to know whether we should be planning to be able
0:14:12 > 0:14:15to do business with Europe in the future or whether we really have
0:14:15 > 0:14:19to look abroad, because the playing field is going to be changed.
0:14:19 > 0:14:21So you think the Government should set out their stall and say,
0:14:21 > 0:14:23"This is what we're going for"?
0:14:23 > 0:14:26These are important matters and, yes, we need to know what is going on.
0:14:26 > 0:14:28All right. The woman up there at the very back.
0:14:28 > 0:14:30Yes, you.
0:14:30 > 0:14:32- Um...- Oh, man, sorry.
0:14:33 > 0:14:37- Oh, dear. - It's the hairstyle, you see.
0:14:37 > 0:14:40Well, um, I'm not old enough to vote, and if I would,
0:14:40 > 0:14:42I'd have certainly have voted Leave.
0:14:42 > 0:14:45But I really do think that this Government does need, just
0:14:45 > 0:14:50for the people in this country that want to know what's going on,
0:14:50 > 0:14:52it does need a Brexit manifesto of some kind.
0:14:52 > 0:14:56OK, and you, sir, up there, with the...
0:14:56 > 0:14:58Um, it seems to me that
0:14:58 > 0:15:01you've all been talking about large multinational companies.
0:15:01 > 0:15:04And none of you have addressed the issues of the smaller companies
0:15:04 > 0:15:06and the smaller exporters.
0:15:06 > 0:15:11And if anyone was to ask me the one thing I would like to know -
0:15:11 > 0:15:17and someone down there used the word "fluidity" about trade earlier on -
0:15:17 > 0:15:20when Brexit happens, one of the things that will
0:15:20 > 0:15:24certainly occur is that VAT will be re-imposed on entry and exit.
0:15:24 > 0:15:27And the large companies can afford VAT deferment.
0:15:27 > 0:15:31A lot of my clients, who are small companies,
0:15:31 > 0:15:32don't have VAT deferment.
0:15:32 > 0:15:34It means that when I sell to them,
0:15:34 > 0:15:37the first thing they have to do is to reach in their pocket and pay
0:15:37 > 0:15:41- the VAT, even if I give them credit on the goods I sell them.- OK.
0:15:41 > 0:15:45- Automatically, I am disadvantaged. - OK. Sal Brinton.
0:15:45 > 0:15:47You're absolutely right.
0:15:47 > 0:15:51And I think one of the big things, it's very unusual for even
0:15:51 > 0:15:57the smallest of firms not to be affected by the actions of the very large ones
0:15:57 > 0:16:00and people talking earlier about Nissan and the other firms involved,
0:16:00 > 0:16:03the supply chain. Of course there's going to be an impact.
0:16:03 > 0:16:06And I think the problem that we're facing at the moment is that
0:16:06 > 0:16:10one day there may be a bit of good news, another day, there's a bit of bad news.
0:16:10 > 0:16:13And it is good if you're exporting at the moment with the low rate
0:16:13 > 0:16:16of the pound, but a lot of firms who would normally recruit
0:16:16 > 0:16:20technology experts are finding they can't recruit them because they
0:16:20 > 0:16:24just will not come from abroad until we know exactly what's happening with Brexit.
0:16:24 > 0:16:27And that's causing chaos in businesses across the country.
0:16:27 > 0:16:28That's the real problem.
0:16:28 > 0:16:30So, Greg Clark, you've heard what Sal's said,
0:16:30 > 0:16:33you've heard what members of the audience have said about just
0:16:33 > 0:16:36wanting to know the direction of travel, even, which they don't know.
0:16:36 > 0:16:38Why can't the Government explain what it's up to?
0:16:38 > 0:16:42- Let me just make a comment on something Ken said...- Can you answer my...- Yes, I certainly will.
0:16:42 > 0:16:44And then answer my question.
0:16:44 > 0:16:49Ken was talking about money, and has money been diverted from public services?
0:16:49 > 0:16:50Quite the opposite.
0:16:50 > 0:16:52This was not a haggle over money,
0:16:52 > 0:16:56this was a vote of confidence in the future of the automotive sector.
0:16:56 > 0:17:00And what this means is that for around 35,000 people
0:17:00 > 0:17:04in the Northeast of England, and many small businesses that supply them,
0:17:04 > 0:17:08this is... Their future is mapped out for the next 20 years.
0:17:08 > 0:17:14What is an assurance for if there's no incentive for them to stay?
0:17:14 > 0:17:17- They're going to have to pay... - The assurance is that the Government
0:17:17 > 0:17:21is going to be vigorous in supporting the automotive sector through research and development...
0:17:21 > 0:17:24What does that mean? "Vigorous in supporting"? I don't know what you mean.
0:17:24 > 0:17:27- Be precise.- I'm explaining.
0:17:27 > 0:17:31So, one of the big opportunities for Nissan and for other auto companies
0:17:31 > 0:17:37is to increase the take-up and the development
0:17:37 > 0:17:39of electric vehicles. Right across the world,
0:17:39 > 0:17:42this is going to be one of the biggest technologies.
0:17:42 > 0:17:45One of the things that we have committed to do, as part of
0:17:45 > 0:17:48our industrial strategy, is to build on our strengths, to make sure
0:17:48 > 0:17:52our universities and research institutions work with the businesses
0:17:52 > 0:17:55- in the sector...- Hang on, are you... Sorry, I must interrupt you.
0:17:55 > 0:17:57Are you saying that you said to Nissan in Japan,
0:17:57 > 0:18:01"Oh, we're going to help you, we're going to do develop the work on electric cars,
0:18:01 > 0:18:04"and therefore you can do two new models here and save..."
0:18:04 > 0:18:06whatever... "7,000 jobs"?
0:18:06 > 0:18:10- It's a big part of it. They referred to it in what they said... - Is that all you said?
0:18:10 > 0:18:13- No cheque-book?- No cheque-book. - No cheque-book?
0:18:13 > 0:18:16No promise of a cheque-book? Nothing Like that? No?
0:18:16 > 0:18:18- The important thing for... - No cheque-book?
0:18:18 > 0:18:20No, no. There was no cheque-book. I don't have a cheque-book!
0:18:20 > 0:18:23The important thing is that they know that this is
0:18:23 > 0:18:27a country in which they can have confidence that they can invest.
0:18:27 > 0:18:31That was the assurance and the understanding that they had
0:18:31 > 0:18:34- and they have invested their money on the basis of that.- All right.
0:18:34 > 0:18:36The woman there in the striped T-shirt.
0:18:36 > 0:18:40I just want to say, I think the Government is at huge risk,
0:18:40 > 0:18:43actually, of not giving the people certainty.
0:18:43 > 0:18:45I think we saw at the Witney by-election result
0:18:45 > 0:18:49the huge resurgence of the Liberal Democrats, that actually,
0:18:49 > 0:18:52people want to know what is going on with Brexit and maybe this
0:18:52 > 0:18:54will be repeated at Richmond Park.
0:18:54 > 0:18:58They've got a very small majority and if they keep coming on
0:18:58 > 0:19:01with these lies or not telling us exactly what Brexit means,
0:19:01 > 0:19:03I think they're on very risky ground.
0:19:03 > 0:19:06We'll come back to Richmond Park maybe in a minute. And you, sir, at the front here.
0:19:06 > 0:19:09Then I'll come to you. Yes, sir, you, sir.
0:19:09 > 0:19:14I work for the NHS, and the NHS is heavily reliant on staff from
0:19:14 > 0:19:17Europe as well, as the rest of the world.
0:19:17 > 0:19:19And the amount of stress that they're under,
0:19:19 > 0:19:23not knowing what their future actually holds, it's incredible.
0:19:23 > 0:19:26Can't the Government even give them assurance as to what it's
0:19:26 > 0:19:29planning for people who are working here from Europe?
0:19:29 > 0:19:32OK. And Keir, you wanted to pick up something as well?
0:19:32 > 0:19:35Well, I want is to pick up on all of those comments, because...
0:19:35 > 0:19:37Well, you can't pick up on all of them,
0:19:37 > 0:19:39because we will be here until the end of the programme.
0:19:39 > 0:19:42What's coming across is a real anxiety about the future.
0:19:42 > 0:19:45Understandable for any business of any size.
0:19:45 > 0:19:48And the future of us and of our children,
0:19:48 > 0:19:50and people are really concerned about this.
0:19:50 > 0:19:53At the moment, the Government is not saying what its approach is,
0:19:53 > 0:19:55and if they are asked,
0:19:55 > 0:19:58they'll say you're just trying to frustrate the process.
0:19:58 > 0:20:00We've said loud and clear, we accept the outcome.
0:20:00 > 0:20:02This is not whether we're in, we're out.
0:20:02 > 0:20:05But we all have a vested interest in knowing what the terms are.
0:20:05 > 0:20:08This is the biggest set of arrangements that have to be
0:20:08 > 0:20:10put in place since the Second World War.
0:20:10 > 0:20:12And we've got to know where we're heading.
0:20:12 > 0:20:14We've also got to bring the country together,
0:20:14 > 0:20:17we've got to stop talking about the 52% and the 48%,
0:20:17 > 0:20:20we've got to talk about the 100%, everybody, and the national
0:20:20 > 0:20:23interest, and it's in the national interest to know what we're doing.
0:20:23 > 0:20:27APPLAUSE All right, you there.
0:20:27 > 0:20:28Yes.
0:20:28 > 0:20:31This uncertainty is affecting all sectors and areas.
0:20:31 > 0:20:35I work in education and we've seen today that EU applications are
0:20:35 > 0:20:37down by 9%, and that is a huge...
0:20:37 > 0:20:39when it's been growing in previous years.
0:20:39 > 0:20:42We need to get back some confidence in our economy and where
0:20:42 > 0:20:44we're going and that we welcome people from abroad.
0:20:44 > 0:20:48OK, and the woman up there, in the...one, two, three...
0:20:48 > 0:20:50fourth row down there, yes.
0:20:50 > 0:20:53If Brexit was the right decision for this country,
0:20:53 > 0:20:56why are we having to do deals? That's what I don't understand.
0:20:56 > 0:20:59Surely people want to stay here if Brexit was the right decision.
0:20:59 > 0:21:02Why do you have to...? Dia.
0:21:02 > 0:21:06Erm, I think I'll just quickly say one thing to this lady here.
0:21:06 > 0:21:09There was a survey that came out earlier this week,
0:21:09 > 0:21:11Deloitte put that together,
0:21:11 > 0:21:14and it seems like consumer confidence is coming back,
0:21:14 > 0:21:18so that's another bit of good news, perhaps we need to build on that.
0:21:18 > 0:21:22I was really heartened to hear, just coming back to that point, I was
0:21:22 > 0:21:24really heartened to hear Keir saying
0:21:24 > 0:21:27that Parliament understands that Brexit has to happen,
0:21:27 > 0:21:30because that is what people voted for on 23rd June, let's face it.
0:21:30 > 0:21:33But when you look at the composition of our House of Commons,
0:21:33 > 0:21:36it really doesn't fill someone like me, a Brexit voter -
0:21:36 > 0:21:39I think I'm the only person on this panel
0:21:39 > 0:21:42who was a Brexit voter, actually - with a whole lot of confidence.
0:21:42 > 0:21:45Because we hear a lot about ethnic minorities or women not being
0:21:45 > 0:21:48represented, or being underrepresented, in Parliament.
0:21:48 > 0:21:51Well, let's look at the composition of Parliament at the moment.
0:21:51 > 0:21:54Over 50% of the population voted out.
0:21:54 > 0:21:58Nearly 80% of our MPs voted to remain.
0:21:58 > 0:22:01Gloucester, this very constituency,
0:22:01 > 0:22:04I think it was about 60% of this constituency voted out.
0:22:04 > 0:22:06Your MP voted to remain in.
0:22:06 > 0:22:09So while I'm all for Parliament scrutinising the deal
0:22:09 > 0:22:11that is put in front of us by the Government,
0:22:11 > 0:22:14because let's not forget, a Prime Minister not so long ago put
0:22:14 > 0:22:18a shoddy deal in front of us and pretended it was a stunning victory.
0:22:18 > 0:22:21I want Parliament to scrutinise the deal, but I would be very,
0:22:21 > 0:22:24very wary of our politicians playing clever games and coming out
0:22:24 > 0:22:27of Brexit in some way and not delivering Brexit.
0:22:27 > 0:22:29- That's not going to be right. - We have to go on. OK.
0:22:29 > 0:22:34We must go on, you can come back to this.
0:22:34 > 0:22:36We'll come back to the Government in a moment.
0:22:36 > 0:22:38We're in Watford next week, I should say,
0:22:38 > 0:22:40we're in Southend-on-Sea the week after that,
0:22:40 > 0:22:43so if you want to come and get involved in these debates,
0:22:43 > 0:22:45Watford next week, Southend-on-Sea, that's your chance.
0:22:45 > 0:22:47I'll give the details at the end,
0:22:47 > 0:22:50but they're there briefly on the screen, but I want to go on to
0:22:50 > 0:22:52another question that's also about the economy.
0:22:52 > 0:22:55Sophie Wand, please, Sophie Wand.
0:22:55 > 0:22:59Does the economic benefit of the new runway at Heathrow justify
0:22:59 > 0:23:02the environmental damage it will cause?
0:23:02 > 0:23:05- Sal Brinton. - The very simple answer is no,
0:23:05 > 0:23:08and actually, the economic argument itself
0:23:08 > 0:23:12has been debunked today in the Times by their business editor,
0:23:12 > 0:23:16whose headline said, "The sums just don't add up."
0:23:16 > 0:23:20And it is interesting that the benefits have reduced by more
0:23:20 > 0:23:24than half from the Davies report to what Chris Grayling said this week.
0:23:24 > 0:23:28But the environmental ones are absolutely essential as well,
0:23:28 > 0:23:31both the noise pollution and the ozone pollution.
0:23:31 > 0:23:34No need for runways at all? No more runways?
0:23:34 > 0:23:37No, no, it's about where you put them and where capacity is,
0:23:37 > 0:23:39that's the big issue, and also, frankly,
0:23:39 > 0:23:41about what you're doing at each airport.
0:23:41 > 0:23:43If we want Heathrow to be a traveller hub,
0:23:43 > 0:23:47then why have we got 40% of freight coming in and out of Heathrow
0:23:47 > 0:23:49when there is space elsewhere?
0:23:49 > 0:23:52It doesn't all need to come into Heathrow.
0:23:52 > 0:23:56And certainly there is a very, very serious problem about pollution.
0:23:56 > 0:23:59The main one, there was a paper earlier this week talking
0:23:59 > 0:24:01about reduction in air pollution.
0:24:01 > 0:24:03That's not the key problem.
0:24:03 > 0:24:05The problem is car and vehicle pollution
0:24:05 > 0:24:07in and around Heathrow, trying to get to it.
0:24:07 > 0:24:12Why is one of your own candidates focusing on Brexit to become
0:24:12 > 0:24:16an MP, rather than the issue which you are just talking about,
0:24:16 > 0:24:19which is obviously a very important one,
0:24:19 > 0:24:23and one which the outgoing MP left in dispute about?
0:24:23 > 0:24:27Actually, Sarah Olney, who you are talking about, made it very,
0:24:27 > 0:24:31very clear that along with the Liberal Democrats in
0:24:31 > 0:24:35Richmond Park, she has always been against an extra runway.
0:24:35 > 0:24:39The issue about Brexit, which somebody else referred to as
0:24:39 > 0:24:40coming up in Witney,
0:24:40 > 0:24:45is certainly very live in Richmond Park as well, and there is
0:24:45 > 0:24:49no doubt at all that Zac Goldsmith is the hardest Brexit voter
0:24:49 > 0:24:53in Parliament at the moment, he's voted for and against.
0:24:53 > 0:24:58- The key thing...- Is it going to be Olney and not Cable, then?
0:24:58 > 0:25:00Er, I understand that Vince has ruled himself out.
0:25:00 > 0:25:04- So she's going to be your candidate? - Well, we will see.
0:25:04 > 0:25:06- We've got a final process to go through on Sunday.- Oh, my goodness.
0:25:06 > 0:25:09But she is the one who you are referring to.
0:25:09 > 0:25:14So why are you allowing her to be focused so harshly upon Brexit,
0:25:14 > 0:25:19when the points that you have just made yourself, she seemed...
0:25:19 > 0:25:23I have to tell you, as somebody who has been in Richmond already,
0:25:23 > 0:25:26there is no doubt that we have been talking about the proposed
0:25:26 > 0:25:29third runway, and she has as well, and she will go on doing it.
0:25:29 > 0:25:33The parliamentary by-election's about more than just one thing,
0:25:33 > 0:25:34whatever Zac wants to do.
0:25:34 > 0:25:36Leave the Liberal Democrats for a moment,
0:25:36 > 0:25:39come back to the issue about Heathrow. Keir Starmer.
0:25:39 > 0:25:44Well, the Heathrow decision is a difficult decision and as you can
0:25:44 > 0:25:49see, it's split political parties, MPs within all political parties.
0:25:49 > 0:25:52Undoubtedly, we've got to support our economy,
0:25:52 > 0:25:54we've got to support all parts of the country.
0:25:54 > 0:25:58This shouldn't be a London and the South East issue, it's got to
0:25:58 > 0:26:01be beneficial for everyone, and we do need more capacity.
0:26:01 > 0:26:03And therefore it went out to an independent commission.
0:26:03 > 0:26:05I'm in favour of that.
0:26:05 > 0:26:08I think one of the problems with politics is that long-term projects
0:26:08 > 0:26:11are done on short-term political deals and we need
0:26:11 > 0:26:13long-term independent thinking.
0:26:13 > 0:26:16Why did your Shadow Chancellor call it a disaster?
0:26:16 > 0:26:18I can see why the Government has gone for...
0:26:18 > 0:26:22- Then why did the Opposition call it a disaster?- ..has gone for Heathrow.
0:26:22 > 0:26:24I think what Labour... Labour has been clear on this,
0:26:24 > 0:26:27which is that we will give conditional support, and one of the
0:26:27 > 0:26:31conditions is about environmental standards and air quality.
0:26:31 > 0:26:33And in London, this is a really serious issue.
0:26:33 > 0:26:37Many in the audience will have probably seen or heard
0:26:37 > 0:26:40that 9,000 Londoners die from air quality problems a year.
0:26:40 > 0:26:43If this was anything else, people would be up in arms.
0:26:43 > 0:26:47And the problem with Heathrow is that the Government says
0:26:47 > 0:26:50it can be delivered within current standards.
0:26:50 > 0:26:52That remains to be seen and I remain to be persuaded.
0:26:52 > 0:26:56But the bigger problem, as Sal says, it's not just the airport,
0:26:56 > 0:26:58it's the traffic around the airport...
0:26:58 > 0:27:01You said that Greg Clark didn't answer the question.
0:27:01 > 0:27:04Can you answer the question why your Shadow Chancellor called it
0:27:04 > 0:27:07a disaster, and whether you agree that the decision was a disaster?
0:27:07 > 0:27:10Well, the Shadow Chancellor obviously represents an area
0:27:10 > 0:27:15that is heavily affected by the airport and all MPs are
0:27:15 > 0:27:17concerned about representing their constituencies.
0:27:17 > 0:27:20- What's the Labour Party position on it?- The Labour Party position is,
0:27:20 > 0:27:23conditional support for an additional runway in
0:27:23 > 0:27:28the South East, the conditions being about serving the whole of
0:27:28 > 0:27:29the country, not just the South East,
0:27:29 > 0:27:32that the capacity is dealt with, but, most importantly -
0:27:32 > 0:27:34for me, the most important -
0:27:34 > 0:27:38that we must come in, in relation to the environmental concerns
0:27:38 > 0:27:41and within the limit, and that's an issue not just for Heathrow,
0:27:41 > 0:27:42but for every infrastructure project.
0:27:42 > 0:27:44We've got to get used to this.
0:27:44 > 0:27:46This will be an issue for every infrastructure project
0:27:46 > 0:27:50- from now on in, and rightly so. - You, sir. Yep.
0:27:51 > 0:27:53LAUGHTER The microphone is there.
0:27:53 > 0:27:55I want to take issue with Keir, there.
0:27:55 > 0:27:58It's not all parties that are thinking it's fine and dandy.
0:27:58 > 0:28:02The Green Party are unequivocally opposed to this airport expansion,
0:28:02 > 0:28:05not just for the localised pollution,
0:28:05 > 0:28:08which is obviously devastating, the number of bronchial illnesses
0:28:08 > 0:28:12and the rest of it, but also - the small elephant in the room -
0:28:12 > 0:28:16climate change. We've got to stop emissions now.
0:28:16 > 0:28:20We cannot just carry on living like the planet
0:28:20 > 0:28:22will last for ever, right?
0:28:22 > 0:28:25- What do the panel think about that, climate change?- Ken Loach.
0:28:25 > 0:28:26APPLAUSE
0:28:28 > 0:28:31I think you're absolutely right.
0:28:31 > 0:28:37It is inconceivable that we shall meet our climate change targets
0:28:37 > 0:28:40if we build another runway. It's absolutely...
0:28:40 > 0:28:45Do people not realise that there will be no planet to leave to
0:28:45 > 0:28:48their great-grandchildren and the people that follow afterwards?
0:28:48 > 0:28:54I read one statistic - there are 100 harvests left in this country.
0:28:54 > 0:28:57Think about it - 100 harvests and then there won't be any.
0:28:57 > 0:29:00We've got to act, and the idea that we're going to burn more
0:29:00 > 0:29:02fossil fuel is absolutely crazy.
0:29:02 > 0:29:07I'll just remind you, who said, "No ifs, no buts, no third runway"?
0:29:07 > 0:29:10- Who was it?- David Cameron! - Cameron! And who agreed with him?
0:29:10 > 0:29:12- Theresa... - AUDIENCE:- May.
0:29:12 > 0:29:16Indeed she did, but we're used to her changing her mind, aren't we?
0:29:16 > 0:29:19LAUGHTER AND APPLAUSE
0:29:21 > 0:29:26It's really... It's the most stupid decision we could imagine.
0:29:26 > 0:29:29There will be endless legal wrangles, it will go on and on.
0:29:29 > 0:29:33The poor people who are there are in a nightmare now for decades
0:29:33 > 0:29:36and it is an absolutely stupid decision.
0:29:36 > 0:29:41It's unrealistic and it's disastrous and I do wish that, for once,
0:29:41 > 0:29:44the Labour MPs would follow the wisdom of their leaders,
0:29:44 > 0:29:47Jeremy Corbyn and John McDonnell, and stick with what they say.
0:29:47 > 0:29:50They're good leaders. Follow what they say.
0:29:50 > 0:29:53CHEERING AND APPLAUSE
0:29:53 > 0:29:54You, sir.
0:29:56 > 0:29:57You, sir, then I'll come to you.
0:29:57 > 0:29:59Ken Loach is against air travel,
0:29:59 > 0:30:02so are you going to cycle to New York next time you pick up your award?
0:30:02 > 0:30:05- Are you going to cycle? - APPLAUSE
0:30:05 > 0:30:08And also, all the people that have got no money, are you going
0:30:08 > 0:30:10to give the large amount of money you've made to these people?
0:30:10 > 0:30:13No, you're talking from a position of strength to a position of weakness.
0:30:13 > 0:30:16No, I'm not saying stop all air travel,
0:30:16 > 0:30:18I'm saying we can't build another runway, that's all.
0:30:18 > 0:30:21I'm saying don't increase it, I'm not saying stop it.
0:30:21 > 0:30:22No, I'm saying don't increase it.
0:30:22 > 0:30:26- This is about increasing it. - Greg Clark.- David, for 70 years,
0:30:26 > 0:30:28the argument's been going backwards and forwards here.
0:30:28 > 0:30:31That was the last time we built a new, full-length runway
0:30:31 > 0:30:32in the South East of England.
0:30:32 > 0:30:36Meanwhile, more people travel and if we really want to say that
0:30:36 > 0:30:39we're going to be open for business, then for heaven's sake,
0:30:39 > 0:30:42people need to be here to do business with us, it seems to me.
0:30:42 > 0:30:43And, I'm, er...
0:30:43 > 0:30:47I'm depressed by what Keir said, the kind of, you know,
0:30:47 > 0:30:49"Shall we, shan't we?" approach.
0:30:49 > 0:30:52We need to make a decision in the national interest,
0:30:52 > 0:30:56and it's not just that we need to trade and to prosper.
0:30:56 > 0:30:59If you think, we've been talking about the car industry.
0:30:59 > 0:31:02Let's talk about another successful industry in this country -
0:31:02 > 0:31:04the aerospace industry.
0:31:04 > 0:31:07Many members of this audience will know that the Airbus landing gear
0:31:07 > 0:31:10is made next to Gloucestershire Airport.
0:31:10 > 0:31:15They require a thriving aviation industry in this country,
0:31:15 > 0:31:18so we are backing another sector by getting on and taking
0:31:18 > 0:31:20a decision in the national interest.
0:31:20 > 0:31:23Of course there's going to be controversy,
0:31:23 > 0:31:26of course people are going to have individual objections,
0:31:26 > 0:31:29but the responsible role for a national government
0:31:29 > 0:31:32is to take a decision in the national interest.
0:31:32 > 0:31:35- Exactly, exactly, exactly. - The woman there. I'll go round.
0:31:35 > 0:31:38There are a number of people with their hands up, then I'll come to you.
0:31:38 > 0:31:41There has to be a balance between, like, economy and people, though,
0:31:41 > 0:31:43cos it's the same with the fracking issue.
0:31:43 > 0:31:45It's like, you can't put people's lives at risk
0:31:45 > 0:31:47just for economic benefit.
0:31:47 > 0:31:50You have to think about the people that live there, and it's fine
0:31:50 > 0:31:53to say, "Oh, we're going to pollute all these people," but, actually,
0:31:53 > 0:31:55that's people's lives and you're affecting them
0:31:55 > 0:31:56just for the economic gain.
0:31:56 > 0:31:59There has to be a balance between the lives lived in that area,
0:31:59 > 0:32:01you can't just poison people and be, like,
0:32:01 > 0:32:04"Oh, well, that's fine, because we've got another runway."
0:32:04 > 0:32:06APPLAUSE
0:32:07 > 0:32:10You're absolutely right, and that's why there was an independent review
0:32:10 > 0:32:14taken, and the Committee on Climate Change - the body that advises,
0:32:14 > 0:32:17independently, the Government on whether it's meeting its
0:32:17 > 0:32:21climate change commitments - said that this can be done within
0:32:21 > 0:32:24the carbon emission standards that we set.
0:32:24 > 0:32:26Have you asked the people that live there, though?
0:32:26 > 0:32:27Have you said to them,
0:32:27 > 0:32:30"Actually, you people live here, you're in that area"?
0:32:30 > 0:32:32It has to be right for them, too.
0:32:32 > 0:32:33Let me go to the very back of our audience here.
0:32:33 > 0:32:36The man in blue, there, on the right. Yes.
0:32:36 > 0:32:41It's all well and good, the Government asking Nissan to stay
0:32:41 > 0:32:43in the UK and investing in Airbus,
0:32:43 > 0:32:47but I read a report the other day that said the UK has dropped to 14th
0:32:47 > 0:32:53in the world table for investment in renewable energy,
0:32:53 > 0:32:57and in Gloucester, we've got Horizon Nuclear, EDF,
0:32:57 > 0:33:01Ecotricity and... I think it's Tidal Bay.
0:33:01 > 0:33:05What is the Government going to do to put us back up
0:33:05 > 0:33:08the renewable energy table and make us a world leader
0:33:08 > 0:33:11- in carbon neutral energy? - That's not about the airport.
0:33:11 > 0:33:14- What about the airport? Are you in favour or not?- I'm in favour.
0:33:14 > 0:33:18I'm in favour, because there is 1 billion Chinese out there
0:33:18 > 0:33:21who are starting to get middle incomes,
0:33:21 > 0:33:23and they're going to come to the UK.
0:33:23 > 0:33:25They want to come and see Buckingham Palace,
0:33:25 > 0:33:29they want to visit the Olympic Park, and they want to visit Gloucester!
0:33:29 > 0:33:32They want to come and see Harry Potter and they want to come
0:33:32 > 0:33:34to Gloucester Cathedral, they want to see where Star Wars was made.
0:33:34 > 0:33:37The person in spectacles on the gangway,
0:33:37 > 0:33:38then I'll come to you, dear. Yes.
0:33:38 > 0:33:41Why does it always have to be London that gets the infrastructure?
0:33:41 > 0:33:43- Exactly.- Why isn't it Birmingham?
0:33:43 > 0:33:46It's the only airport that's actually on HS2.
0:33:46 > 0:33:49Why not integrate the transport system of this country?
0:33:49 > 0:33:51- Absolutely right.- Dia Chakravarty.
0:33:51 > 0:33:53I think the gentleman's absolutely right,
0:33:53 > 0:33:54it should have been Birmingham as well,
0:33:54 > 0:33:57and I think it definitely should have been Gatwick as well.
0:33:57 > 0:33:59- Lots of runways.- Lots of runways! - LAUGHTER
0:33:59 > 0:34:03If we are constantly telling the world we're open for business,
0:34:03 > 0:34:05we need to back it up with a little bit of action,
0:34:05 > 0:34:08and this goes some way towards doing it.
0:34:08 > 0:34:11Let's not forget, in 2009, it was a Labour policy that was put
0:34:11 > 0:34:13forward and we nearly had a green light, then.
0:34:13 > 0:34:16It's 2016 now, it still hasn't happened,
0:34:16 > 0:34:17so I'm not holding my breath,
0:34:17 > 0:34:20but it's definitely the right way to go, and I'll tell you why.
0:34:20 > 0:34:23Man-made climate change is something that I believe in.
0:34:23 > 0:34:25I come from Bangladesh.
0:34:25 > 0:34:28When things go bad, that country is just going to go underwater,
0:34:28 > 0:34:30so I don't think it's a joke,
0:34:30 > 0:34:33but the way to deal with it is not by not being realistic.
0:34:33 > 0:34:36We, as a country, are responsible
0:34:36 > 0:34:39for less than 2% of global emissions.
0:34:39 > 0:34:44If we don't turn our part of the world into a business hub,
0:34:44 > 0:34:48by the time we've taken to decide on Heathrow, China's built,
0:34:48 > 0:34:53I think, about 30 airports, and we know that when China does it,
0:34:53 > 0:34:56it does not do it to the same level when it comes to CO2 emissions
0:34:56 > 0:35:00that we do in this country, so we've got to be realistic about it.
0:35:00 > 0:35:02Dubai has already taken over Heathrow. I think, very recently,
0:35:02 > 0:35:05it took over Heathrow in terms of how much of
0:35:05 > 0:35:08a hub airport it has become, and there are differences between
0:35:08 > 0:35:10Heathrow and Gatwick as airports.
0:35:10 > 0:35:12Heathrow is a hub airport, I think as Sal said,
0:35:12 > 0:35:15and Gatwick is a point-to-point airport. Why aren't we having both?
0:35:15 > 0:35:16We can do it responsibly.
0:35:16 > 0:35:19This is why we have a responsibility to do it, so that other people
0:35:19 > 0:35:23who don't do it quite so responsibly don't mess it up even more.
0:35:23 > 0:35:25The problem is that the third runway...
0:35:25 > 0:35:29APPLAUSE
0:35:29 > 0:35:33The third runway is not responsible. That's the issue.
0:35:33 > 0:35:36- APPLAUSE - But it is, according to an independent commission.
0:35:36 > 0:35:40- Very brief, Keir, very briefly. - Very briefly, I just wanted to come in and correct Greg.
0:35:40 > 0:35:42Labour is supportive of expansion and that's
0:35:42 > 0:35:44been absolutely clear,
0:35:44 > 0:35:47but we are putting conditions on environmental standards.
0:35:47 > 0:35:49That is the right way to approach it.
0:35:49 > 0:35:51That's actually what the Government says.
0:35:51 > 0:35:55I'm sure you've read the independent report that has said,
0:35:55 > 0:35:58independently, that those environmental conditions
0:35:58 > 0:35:59have been satisfied.
0:35:59 > 0:36:01It was part of the requirement to go ahead.
0:36:01 > 0:36:03But this is Sal's point,
0:36:03 > 0:36:05is whether there are environmental issues
0:36:05 > 0:36:06in the building and running of the airport
0:36:06 > 0:36:09and there are environmental issues in the traffic and everything...
0:36:09 > 0:36:12THEY TALK OVER EACH OTHER
0:36:12 > 0:36:14All right, back to the House of Commons floor for that argument!
0:36:14 > 0:36:15LAUGHTER
0:36:15 > 0:36:18It's getting slightly on the dull side.
0:36:18 > 0:36:20LAUGHTER AND APPLAUSE
0:36:25 > 0:36:29We'll take a rather wider question from Judy, please.
0:36:29 > 0:36:33- Judy.- Has the British public become less compassionate since
0:36:33 > 0:36:37Ken Loach's 1966 film, Cathy Come Home?
0:36:37 > 0:36:38APPLAUSE
0:36:38 > 0:36:43Which was...a film that was made 50 years ago and, I suppose, behind it,
0:36:43 > 0:36:47has the British public become just less compassionate over
0:36:47 > 0:36:49the last 50 years? Dia Chakravarty.
0:36:49 > 0:36:51I don't think so at all.
0:36:51 > 0:36:56I am a fairly new arrival to this country and I do find it one
0:36:56 > 0:36:59of the most welcoming, one of the most hospitable countries in
0:36:59 > 0:37:02the world, which is why a lot of people want to come here,
0:37:02 > 0:37:07so, no, I wouldn't say that it's become less passionate at all.
0:37:07 > 0:37:13- Compassionate.- Less compassionate - or less passionate - at all.
0:37:13 > 0:37:14Certainly not less passionate!
0:37:14 > 0:37:16LAUGHTER
0:37:16 > 0:37:17Certainly not that!
0:37:17 > 0:37:21So, no, that is certainly not my experience,
0:37:21 > 0:37:24- but are we actually going on to talk about Ken's film?- Fire away.
0:37:24 > 0:37:27Well, absolutely. Well, first of all, congratulations,
0:37:27 > 0:37:29Ken, for the Cannes accolade. That's excellent news.
0:37:29 > 0:37:33What struck me about this film, really,
0:37:33 > 0:37:37is how, in a very gritty, very grim film,
0:37:37 > 0:37:40the one thing that works are the social support networks.
0:37:40 > 0:37:43So the protagonists get let down by the state machine
0:37:43 > 0:37:45over and over again.
0:37:45 > 0:37:47Who stands by them? The society, the community.
0:37:47 > 0:37:50- I think that's a wonderful thing that came out of that.- Oh, come on.
0:37:50 > 0:37:52- I can't wait any longer. - That definitely came out.
0:37:52 > 0:37:55- This is so wrong.- That definitely came out of the film.
0:37:55 > 0:37:58- All right, Ken Loach. - It was meant as a compliment, Ken.
0:37:58 > 0:38:01Is the country less compassionate? Yes, I believe it is.
0:38:01 > 0:38:03- When we... - APPLAUSE
0:38:03 > 0:38:0460 years ago...
0:38:04 > 0:38:0960 years ago, after...the post-war settlement was still in place,
0:38:09 > 0:38:12where what we believed in was the common good,
0:38:12 > 0:38:14and people worked together for the common good.
0:38:14 > 0:38:17And then there was a change, a political change,
0:38:17 > 0:38:19and it marked a social change as well.
0:38:19 > 0:38:21And the common good went out of the window
0:38:21 > 0:38:26and it was about private greed, private...private...projects,
0:38:26 > 0:38:29and the common good went out of the window.
0:38:29 > 0:38:30And it's crystallised
0:38:30 > 0:38:32in the way we treat the most vulnerable people,
0:38:32 > 0:38:33and it's crystallised
0:38:33 > 0:38:37in the way we tell people who are desperately sick
0:38:37 > 0:38:39that, actually, they won't get any financial support
0:38:39 > 0:38:43unless the state assesses them and tells them they are fit to work.
0:38:43 > 0:38:45And it's in the sanctions.
0:38:45 > 0:38:50We came across one man who took his pregnant wife to hospital.
0:38:50 > 0:38:53She was in premature labour.
0:38:53 > 0:38:56He missed his appointment at the Jobcentre and his money stopped.
0:38:56 > 0:38:58His money stopped.
0:38:58 > 0:39:01And that was one of hundreds and hundreds of stories we heard.
0:39:01 > 0:39:03And people live in fear.
0:39:03 > 0:39:07A man was ill, he fell down, he injured himself badly.
0:39:07 > 0:39:09They called the ambulance.
0:39:09 > 0:39:10He was afraid to get in
0:39:10 > 0:39:14because they were afraid they would keep him in hospital overnight
0:39:14 > 0:39:16and he'd miss his appointment at the Jobcentre.
0:39:16 > 0:39:18People are living in fear,
0:39:18 > 0:39:21and it's absolutely an intolerable way to live.
0:39:21 > 0:39:25There's a conscious cruelty in the way the system is being imposed,
0:39:25 > 0:39:27because the state knows what it's doing.
0:39:27 > 0:39:29The Tory government knows exactly what it's doing.
0:39:29 > 0:39:32- So why isn't Labour more popular? WOMAN:- Exactly.
0:39:32 > 0:39:34APPLAUSE
0:39:34 > 0:39:36Why Labour isn't more popular
0:39:36 > 0:39:39is because the Parliamentary Labour Party
0:39:39 > 0:39:41has done its best to undermine its leader,
0:39:41 > 0:39:43that's why it's not more popular,
0:39:43 > 0:39:45and people won't vote for a divided party.
0:39:45 > 0:39:46It's quite clear.
0:39:46 > 0:39:48But if you look at the policies,
0:39:48 > 0:39:51the Labour Party would abolish assessments,
0:39:51 > 0:39:53which of course it should do.
0:39:53 > 0:39:56And we know that the Government knows it's wrong
0:39:56 > 0:39:59because if you appeal against the assessment,
0:39:59 > 0:40:00you will almost certainly win.
0:40:00 > 0:40:05So they know they're teasing people in a very cruel way.
0:40:05 > 0:40:07And what happens when you're sanctioned,
0:40:07 > 0:40:10you're forced into... your life is forced into chaos
0:40:10 > 0:40:12and people are going to food banks,
0:40:12 > 0:40:17and there were 1,100,000 food parcels given.
0:40:17 > 0:40:20- 1,100,000 people who would starve otherwise.- Ken, let me just ask...
0:40:20 > 0:40:23And over 400,000 of those went to children.
0:40:23 > 0:40:25How can we live in a society
0:40:25 > 0:40:28- in which hunger is used as a weapon? - Ken, can I just...?
0:40:28 > 0:40:30It's an absolutely intolerable situation.
0:40:30 > 0:40:33APPLAUSE All right... Yes. Briefly.
0:40:33 > 0:40:34Can I just ask...?
0:40:34 > 0:40:36I completely agree with you that the system does not work,
0:40:36 > 0:40:38and I'll tell you what.
0:40:38 > 0:40:42The specific sort of benefit that is discussed in your film,
0:40:42 > 0:40:44which affects the protagonists,
0:40:44 > 0:40:48the manual for that is three times the size of War And Peace.
0:40:48 > 0:40:50It is a defunct system, it does not work,
0:40:50 > 0:40:52it treats people as numbers, that's absolutely right.
0:40:52 > 0:40:54It has an ideological reason,
0:40:54 > 0:40:56to tell people that their poverty is their own fault.
0:40:56 > 0:40:58- All right.- That's the point of it.
0:40:58 > 0:41:01Why is that...? Why is that the society's fault?
0:41:01 > 0:41:05Who are these people who are going out and arranging these food banks?
0:41:05 > 0:41:07Why do you call those people not compassionate?
0:41:07 > 0:41:10- Let's hear...- Surely it shows that people work together.
0:41:10 > 0:41:11Society does work.
0:41:11 > 0:41:14Let's hear from the Government Minister who's here, Greg Clark.
0:41:14 > 0:41:15I think there is a strong,
0:41:15 > 0:41:20and I'm proud of the fact there is a strong political consensus in the UK
0:41:20 > 0:41:22across parties and across the country
0:41:22 > 0:41:26that we should have an effective system of help
0:41:26 > 0:41:29to people that fall into difficulties.
0:41:29 > 0:41:32Is that perfect at every stage?
0:41:32 > 0:41:35Frankly, it wasn't during all of the time past.
0:41:35 > 0:41:39As a constituency MP, and those of us that are
0:41:39 > 0:41:42will know that every week in our surgeries,
0:41:42 > 0:41:44we have people that come to see us
0:41:44 > 0:41:49who have fallen... fallen outside the bureaucracy.
0:41:49 > 0:41:51There are so many challenges
0:41:51 > 0:41:55of being kept on waiting phone lines and all the rest of it,
0:41:55 > 0:41:59and so you need to constantly reform the system
0:41:59 > 0:42:02so that it can be there to help people.
0:42:02 > 0:42:05And that is what we've been progressively doing.
0:42:05 > 0:42:06What do you make of what...?
0:42:06 > 0:42:09What do you make of what Iain Duncan Smith said when he resigned,
0:42:09 > 0:42:13which was that...it looks to me as though it doesn't matter
0:42:13 > 0:42:15cos these people don't vote for us?
0:42:15 > 0:42:17I don't agree with that at all,
0:42:17 > 0:42:21and I think any Member of Parliament, I think, would say
0:42:21 > 0:42:23that the work that they do
0:42:23 > 0:42:28to help the most vulnerable people in society, in their constituency,
0:42:28 > 0:42:31is one of their most important tasks.
0:42:31 > 0:42:33And if I take one example.
0:42:33 > 0:42:35One of the things that I've had over the years
0:42:35 > 0:42:37from people in my constituency
0:42:37 > 0:42:40is that the bureaucracy and the administration
0:42:40 > 0:42:43has meant that if they get a job, for example,
0:42:43 > 0:42:46they've been very concerned that if that doesn't work out,
0:42:46 > 0:42:49they will go back to square one with the benefits system,
0:42:49 > 0:42:51and it's such a risk
0:42:51 > 0:42:55that it puts them in a quandary and a real dilemma as to what to do.
0:42:55 > 0:42:56To sort that out, to simplify it,
0:42:56 > 0:43:01as Iain Duncan Smith actually helped to through the universal credit,
0:43:01 > 0:43:02was a big step forward,
0:43:02 > 0:43:05and they are the kinds of improvements that we should take.
0:43:05 > 0:43:09- All right.- But we are a society that believes in helping...
0:43:09 > 0:43:12Compassion. You, sir, in the spectacles there.
0:43:12 > 0:43:15Does a compassionate society use its foreign aid budget
0:43:15 > 0:43:18to force through trade deals with Third World countries?
0:43:21 > 0:43:23APPLAUSE
0:43:25 > 0:43:29That is a very, very apt point, particularly at the moment
0:43:29 > 0:43:32with many of the other things that are going on.
0:43:32 > 0:43:34In my view, absolutely not.
0:43:34 > 0:43:37One of the proudest things that the Lib Dems did in coalition
0:43:37 > 0:43:41was to enshrine the 0.7% into law to make sure...
0:43:41 > 0:43:44- The Government did that collectively.- All right...
0:43:44 > 0:43:47- That was a joint... - No, I agree that was joint.
0:43:47 > 0:43:50What is different is that the moment you start to ally it to trade,
0:43:50 > 0:43:54it ceases to be aid for aid's absolute most important thing,
0:43:54 > 0:43:57- which is support and compassion. - Aid is aid. It's not anything else.
0:43:57 > 0:44:00But can I come back to the question as well?
0:44:00 > 0:44:01Are we less compassionate?
0:44:01 > 0:44:04I'll come to you, Judy, if I may, and see what you think in a moment.
0:44:04 > 0:44:06The work capability assessment,
0:44:06 > 0:44:09which is absolutely the core of the point of Ken's film...
0:44:09 > 0:44:13Which is excellent. If you haven't seen it, it really is worth seeing,
0:44:13 > 0:44:14is not fit for purpose.
0:44:14 > 0:44:16But it wouldn't be where it is
0:44:16 > 0:44:20seven years after Labour introduced it in 2009
0:44:20 > 0:44:24if there wasn't an acquiescence in the wider public.
0:44:24 > 0:44:25And I'm sorry to say
0:44:25 > 0:44:27that things like disability hate crime and other things
0:44:27 > 0:44:31are just showing that there is less compassion than there has been.
0:44:31 > 0:44:35There are extraordinary people who are very compassionate,
0:44:35 > 0:44:38but this process absolutely fails.
0:44:38 > 0:44:41We tried to change it.
0:44:41 > 0:44:44For example, when it first came in, it was only the assessors,
0:44:44 > 0:44:47no relevance back to the original doctor
0:44:47 > 0:44:50on whether the person should or shouldn't actually be seen,
0:44:50 > 0:44:53which is the whole pivot of Ken's film.
0:44:53 > 0:44:56It clearly doesn't work, even with the doctors having
0:44:56 > 0:44:58some input these days. It absolutely does not work.
0:44:58 > 0:45:01Surely you don't need an assessor, you take the word of the doctor
0:45:01 > 0:45:03and the consultant.
0:45:03 > 0:45:06You don't need an assessor to do what the doctor
0:45:06 > 0:45:08and the consultant will tell you.
0:45:08 > 0:45:09You are absolutely right...
0:45:09 > 0:45:13So why did it continue while you were in Government?
0:45:13 > 0:45:16Because we were trying these revisions to see if it would work.
0:45:16 > 0:45:19It's clearly not working and it has got to stop.
0:45:19 > 0:45:23Falling outside the bureaucracy is an easy way of putting it.
0:45:23 > 0:45:25The bureaucracy itself
0:45:25 > 0:45:27is a substantial part of the problem.
0:45:27 > 0:45:31What do you think? Let me just go to the questioner.
0:45:31 > 0:45:35I think we are becoming less compassionate, and the Government
0:45:35 > 0:45:39and media are encouraging us to become less compassionate.
0:45:39 > 0:45:42We've got these TV shows where we are encouraged
0:45:42 > 0:45:45to ridicule benefit claimants.
0:45:47 > 0:45:50And we've got headlines in the newspapers saying,
0:45:50 > 0:45:52"Oh, this family gets this much in benefit."
0:45:52 > 0:45:54We don't see the underlying things,
0:45:54 > 0:45:57we don't see that, actually, the housing benefit
0:45:57 > 0:46:00doesn't go into the pockets of the claimants,
0:46:00 > 0:46:03it goes to the landlords, who probably don't need benefits.
0:46:03 > 0:46:06- They are probably quite rich already.- Keir?
0:46:06 > 0:46:08I'm very glad this issue has come up.
0:46:08 > 0:46:11I think it's really important about compassion.
0:46:11 > 0:46:12The DWP assessments
0:46:12 > 0:46:14should get more attention
0:46:14 > 0:46:16about fitness for work.
0:46:16 > 0:46:18At the heart of them,
0:46:18 > 0:46:21there ought to be dignity and respect for the individual.
0:46:21 > 0:46:24They ought to be the core characteristics, and they aren't,
0:46:24 > 0:46:26and it's getting worse.
0:46:26 > 0:46:28There are terrible consequences.
0:46:28 > 0:46:31The father of one of my constituents that I have been helping,
0:46:31 > 0:46:34her father, Michael O'Sullivan,
0:46:34 > 0:46:37was assessed as fit for work, when, for many years,
0:46:37 > 0:46:39he had obviously not been fit for work,
0:46:39 > 0:46:43had mental health issues, and he tragically took his own life
0:46:43 > 0:46:46and the coroner said there was a causal link
0:46:46 > 0:46:48between his intense anxiety
0:46:48 > 0:46:50and the assessment and the consequences.
0:46:50 > 0:46:54His daughter has been asking for answers to how that happened,
0:46:54 > 0:46:58what went wrong, why there wasn't the compassion and the respect,
0:46:58 > 0:47:00and she hasn't got answers for three years.
0:47:00 > 0:47:03Should there be an assessment process
0:47:03 > 0:47:05or do you think that in itself is misguided?
0:47:05 > 0:47:08I don't think you can do away with any assessment,
0:47:08 > 0:47:12but it is time for a real review of how these assessments are working.
0:47:12 > 0:47:13There's been growing concern.
0:47:13 > 0:47:15I think all MPs have had this.
0:47:15 > 0:47:17I've had this tragic case in my constituency
0:47:17 > 0:47:20and it really deserves to be looked at.
0:47:20 > 0:47:23Kier, Debbie Abrahams has said that she will abolish the assessments.
0:47:23 > 0:47:25Thank God she has said it,
0:47:25 > 0:47:29because it is bringing misery and chaos to people's lives.
0:47:29 > 0:47:33I think it should be fundamentally reviewed.
0:47:33 > 0:47:35The woman there, and then I'll come to you, sir. Yes?
0:47:35 > 0:47:38No, the woman with spectacles in the middle there.
0:47:38 > 0:47:41I think the problem with the system is that it is viewed differently
0:47:41 > 0:47:44from either side, so those that create the assessments,
0:47:44 > 0:47:48they demonise everybody that is part of that system.
0:47:48 > 0:47:50Everyone that needs that system
0:47:50 > 0:47:52is painted with a general brush
0:47:52 > 0:47:54and they are just there to get money.
0:47:54 > 0:47:57Whereas everyone on the other side, they want compassion,
0:47:57 > 0:48:01they want them to understand that they're going through hardships
0:48:01 > 0:48:03and all they want is to live
0:48:03 > 0:48:06and all they want is for other people to understand that.
0:48:06 > 0:48:07And you, sir?
0:48:07 > 0:48:11I am chief exec of a charity and the question was put
0:48:11 > 0:48:14about whether compassion is something about society.
0:48:14 > 0:48:17Now, we've got politicians arguing about political points,
0:48:17 > 0:48:21but I see every day the compassion that the British public pour out
0:48:21 > 0:48:23in the giving to charity,
0:48:23 > 0:48:27the generosity and the kindness of people in this country.
0:48:27 > 0:48:29We must never forget that.
0:48:29 > 0:48:31- Can I say something on that?- Yes.
0:48:31 > 0:48:35Compassion, absolutely, of course you will find people
0:48:35 > 0:48:38very compassionate, but it's not reflected in our politics.
0:48:38 > 0:48:41That's the problem. It's not reflected in what they're doing.
0:48:41 > 0:48:43- Greg Clark?- Can I say also...
0:48:43 > 0:48:45Can I make a couple of brief points?
0:48:45 > 0:48:47One is we that we are, as a nation,
0:48:47 > 0:48:50extraordinarily generous in our giving to charities
0:48:50 > 0:48:52and we should be proud of that,
0:48:52 > 0:48:54but I wanted to make a point
0:48:54 > 0:48:55about what Ken was saying,
0:48:55 > 0:48:58about the people that work in the system,
0:48:58 > 0:49:01the people that are employed in Jobcentres
0:49:01 > 0:49:04- and in the benefit system. - I didn't speak about them.
0:49:04 > 0:49:06You talk about the administration...
0:49:06 > 0:49:08They are under incredible pressure
0:49:08 > 0:49:11- and they have targets and expectations...- Let me finish.
0:49:11 > 0:49:15They're in this in order to do the best for the people they serve.
0:49:15 > 0:49:18- I didn't talk about the staff. - Wait a minute.
0:49:18 > 0:49:19Greg, you may be dissimulating.
0:49:19 > 0:49:22What was the point you were making, Ken?
0:49:22 > 0:49:24And then let Greg answer.
0:49:24 > 0:49:26- I didn't mention...- Which was the point you were mentioning?
0:49:26 > 0:49:28I mentioned the point about
0:49:28 > 0:49:30there is compassion, of course, with people,
0:49:30 > 0:49:33but it's not reflected in the Government's actions.
0:49:33 > 0:49:35The DWP staff are under incredible pressure, and we know
0:49:35 > 0:49:38there are targets and expectations,
0:49:38 > 0:49:40and if people don't sanction
0:49:40 > 0:49:42the number of people they're meant to sanction,
0:49:42 > 0:49:45they go on a personal improvement plan,
0:49:45 > 0:49:48and we talked to hundreds of people who work at the DWP,
0:49:48 > 0:49:50under your guidance and instructions,
0:49:50 > 0:49:52and they are told to sanction people.
0:49:52 > 0:49:56- If they don't sanction them, then they're in trouble.- Greg?
0:49:56 > 0:49:59- I think that's unfair... - It's true.
0:49:59 > 0:50:01It's unfair to the people who work in the system.
0:50:01 > 0:50:05It's a difficult job, administering a benefits system,
0:50:05 > 0:50:07whatever your professional role.
0:50:07 > 0:50:10You have got to be fair to the people, quite rightly,
0:50:10 > 0:50:14who are claiming benefits and you need to be fair to those
0:50:14 > 0:50:15who pay for them,
0:50:15 > 0:50:17and they have to make incredibly difficult decisions
0:50:17 > 0:50:21and I think they should have our support in making those decisions
0:50:21 > 0:50:22and it is worth saying that...
0:50:22 > 0:50:24It's your instructions, that's your problem.
0:50:24 > 0:50:27It's the instructions from the Government that's the problem.
0:50:27 > 0:50:31It is a fictional film and people seeing that should not think
0:50:31 > 0:50:35that's the way people are behaving in Jobcentres.
0:50:35 > 0:50:36OK.
0:50:36 > 0:50:38You sir?
0:50:38 > 0:50:41The emphasis has been put on the work capability assessment.
0:50:41 > 0:50:45I think, for starters, that our benefit system
0:50:45 > 0:50:48is probably the most generous system in the Western world.
0:50:48 > 0:50:50And...
0:50:50 > 0:50:52APPLAUSE
0:50:52 > 0:50:55You are talking about people who are incapable of working.
0:50:55 > 0:50:58If we look at other parts of the benefit system,
0:50:58 > 0:51:03like housing benefit, and in-work benefits, like tax credits,
0:51:03 > 0:51:06that's where we want to make the changes
0:51:06 > 0:51:10and not on the very small part of the budget,
0:51:10 > 0:51:13which is workability, unemployed people.
0:51:13 > 0:51:15And you, sir, here?
0:51:15 > 0:51:17We shouldn't have these assessors.
0:51:17 > 0:51:20We have qualified doctors, consultants.
0:51:20 > 0:51:24They decide if a person is disabled or not, and not an assessor
0:51:24 > 0:51:27who is not professionally trained.
0:51:27 > 0:51:29And they only cost us money as well!
0:51:29 > 0:51:32All right. We have only five minutes left.
0:51:32 > 0:51:34I want to take one last question.
0:51:34 > 0:51:36Ashley Cobb, you have it. Ashley Cobb.
0:51:36 > 0:51:41Is Putin flexing his muscles for another Cold War with the West?
0:51:41 > 0:51:44It's a big question to answer in five minutes.
0:51:44 > 0:51:47Is Putin flexing his muscles for another Cold War with the West?
0:51:47 > 0:51:48Sal Brinton?
0:51:48 > 0:51:50Um, I think he certainly is
0:51:50 > 0:51:53and it's for internal reasons as well as external.
0:51:53 > 0:51:57But I think the news today is showing that Nato and its partners
0:51:57 > 0:52:01are not going to let him flex his muscles alone and we will
0:52:01 > 0:52:06remind him that we are there. I think I'm extremely concerned
0:52:06 > 0:52:10about what Putin and Russia are doing in Syria at the moment,
0:52:10 > 0:52:12which is a form of that flexing of the muscles.
0:52:12 > 0:52:16I'm a trustee of Unicef and I'm horrified by the bombing
0:52:16 > 0:52:18of the schools in Idlib today.
0:52:18 > 0:52:22Which, if it was deliberate, is a war crime.
0:52:22 > 0:52:25There is no other word for it.
0:52:25 > 0:52:27APPLAUSE
0:52:29 > 0:52:30Keir Starmer.
0:52:30 > 0:52:34I agree, he is flexing his muscles and we must absolutely
0:52:34 > 0:52:37shine a torch on it everywhere that it's happening.
0:52:37 > 0:52:41And I echo what was said a moment ago about Aleppo.
0:52:41 > 0:52:46The number and the extent of civilian casualties in schools
0:52:46 > 0:52:49and hospitals in the war-torn area,
0:52:49 > 0:52:54with the growing evidence that this could be deliberate acts by
0:52:54 > 0:52:56the Russians and Syrians,
0:52:56 > 0:53:00absolutely needs to be fully investigated, fully looked into,
0:53:00 > 0:53:03and we have to stand up and call it out every single time,
0:53:03 > 0:53:07in terms of humanitarian law, human rights law and war crimes.
0:53:07 > 0:53:11Got to be really strong on this issue and stand up for the standards
0:53:11 > 0:53:14- that we believe in.- What do you understand about cold war?
0:53:14 > 0:53:17If that's what you say, he's flexing his muscles for.
0:53:17 > 0:53:21I say he's flexing his muscles, I hope we're not going to a cold war.
0:53:21 > 0:53:23But I think, at the moment,
0:53:23 > 0:53:26the real concern is about what's happening in places like Syria.
0:53:26 > 0:53:29But there have been land grabs elsewhere in the world,
0:53:29 > 0:53:31but Syria is the focus and we must be clear about what's happening
0:53:31 > 0:53:34there and be very loud about the standards we believe in.
0:53:34 > 0:53:37The woman at the back there.
0:53:37 > 0:53:43I'm pretty sick and tired of Russia being put into a position of
0:53:43 > 0:53:46the enemy, as if we are the good guys and they are the bad guys.
0:53:46 > 0:53:47Let's not forget,
0:53:47 > 0:53:51what started all this shit in the world was the Iraq War.
0:53:51 > 0:53:53OK?
0:53:53 > 0:53:56That started...power vacuums.
0:53:56 > 0:54:02We had to go into Libya, dethrone Saddam Hussein, dethrone Gaddafi.
0:54:02 > 0:54:04What happened there? We've got Isis now. We've got IS.
0:54:04 > 0:54:07Where there's evidence from independent bodies, including
0:54:07 > 0:54:10well-renowned charities on the ground, about deliberately
0:54:10 > 0:54:13targeting civilians and children in schools and hospitals,
0:54:13 > 0:54:14we can't put the blame anywhere else
0:54:14 > 0:54:18- than on those that are carrying it out now.- What did you do in Iraq?
0:54:23 > 0:54:24It is a terrible situation
0:54:24 > 0:54:27and I do agree with everything that Keir just said.
0:54:27 > 0:54:28It is a terrible situation.
0:54:28 > 0:54:33I understand the need that some of our politicians feel to actually
0:54:33 > 0:54:36go and do something about it, but our reaction to it
0:54:36 > 0:54:40and our actions should be very, very carefully thought out,
0:54:40 > 0:54:44because we have a track record of going into terrible situations
0:54:44 > 0:54:48and making them even worse. And while there is...
0:54:48 > 0:54:51APPLAUSE
0:54:51 > 0:54:54I do not doubt the intentions or our politicians,
0:54:54 > 0:54:56I give them the benefit of the doubt,
0:54:56 > 0:54:58but we have to think very carefully about how we act
0:54:58 > 0:55:00so that we don't make it worse for the people living there.
0:55:00 > 0:55:02Ashley Cobb, what's your view?
0:55:02 > 0:55:09I think he's trying to capitalise on the inadequacy of the West,
0:55:09 > 0:55:12- for his own gain. - Ken Loach?
0:55:12 > 0:55:15I hold no brief for Putin at all,
0:55:15 > 0:55:19he's running a country that's based on gangster capitalism and clearly
0:55:19 > 0:55:22what he's done in Syria is a terrible crime and
0:55:22 > 0:55:25he needs to be excoriated for it.
0:55:25 > 0:55:27But I want to make three points.
0:55:27 > 0:55:31First of all, it's a very complex problem, that region,
0:55:31 > 0:55:34and Russia sees Syria as its only ally,
0:55:34 > 0:55:38and it sees the West making allies all the way round...
0:55:38 > 0:55:41and so feels isolated,
0:55:41 > 0:55:44and so it's not surprising that Russia wants to get involved.
0:55:44 > 0:55:48I'm not defending it, I'm saying that's the realpolitik of it.
0:55:48 > 0:55:51Secondly, there is no moral high ground.
0:55:51 > 0:55:54What we did in Iraq - we used chemicals weapons to the kids
0:55:54 > 0:55:57in Fallujah and there are now deformed babies being born
0:55:57 > 0:56:00because of what we and the US did.
0:56:00 > 0:56:03So we have no moral high ground to point the finger.
0:56:08 > 0:56:11And if we speak of war crimes, what went on in Gaza?
0:56:11 > 0:56:14There were war crimes across that region,
0:56:14 > 0:56:17and we can't be partial and just say this is the war crime.
0:56:17 > 0:56:21There were war crimes committed by the West and by the West's allies.
0:56:21 > 0:56:23So we have no moral high ground.
0:56:23 > 0:56:27- Finally - can I say quickly? - Well, you made two points.
0:56:27 > 0:56:31Very quickly. The United Nations is the only body that can act.
0:56:31 > 0:56:35We have to live by the rule of law. We can't be vigilantes any more.
0:56:35 > 0:56:38It has to be by the rule of law and if the Security Council
0:56:38 > 0:56:41gets blocked, I suggest we should go to the General Assembly
0:56:41 > 0:56:43and build a coalition there,
0:56:43 > 0:56:47maybe of countries from the South - certainly not led by the US.
0:56:47 > 0:56:50- Greg Clark. - Cos they're not trusted.
0:56:53 > 0:56:57We do need to act through the UN but we have other vehicles as well.
0:56:57 > 0:57:00The EU, for example, can impose sanctions on Russia.
0:57:00 > 0:57:03We have been one of the leading voices in demanding that
0:57:03 > 0:57:07and pressing that. That is where we can use our influence.
0:57:07 > 0:57:11We're still a member of the EU and as long as we're a member
0:57:11 > 0:57:15we should be using our voice to take some practical effects,
0:57:15 > 0:57:17rather than simply condemn it...
0:57:17 > 0:57:21Ashley's question, if we can just go to it, was do you think Putin is
0:57:21 > 0:57:24flexing his muscles - as he put it - for another cold war?
0:57:24 > 0:57:27IE, deliberately trying to set up a cold war.
0:57:27 > 0:57:28I don't know but it's...
0:57:28 > 0:57:32I desperately hope that's not the case because it's in no-one's
0:57:32 > 0:57:35interest to go back to those terrible times, and we need to do
0:57:35 > 0:57:40everything that we can, collectively in the UN, across Europe,
0:57:40 > 0:57:44to make sure there are consequences for going against the behaviour
0:57:44 > 0:57:47- that everyone would want you see. - All right.
0:57:47 > 0:57:50I'm sorry, we have to stop there cos our time's up.
0:57:50 > 0:57:53Apologies to those of you who still had your hands up
0:57:53 > 0:57:55but we only have the hour, as ever.
0:57:55 > 0:57:59So, next week Question Time is going to be in Watford.
0:57:59 > 0:58:01We have Lisa Nandy for Labour,
0:58:01 > 0:58:05the businessman, Donald Trump supporter and Ukip donor,
0:58:05 > 0:58:06Arron Banks.
0:58:06 > 0:58:10And the American musician and radio presenter Huey Morgan,
0:58:10 > 0:58:14who you will know, is of the Fun Lovin' Criminals...department.
0:58:14 > 0:58:16The following week we're going to be in Southend-on-Sea,
0:58:16 > 0:58:19so come into our audience and come and take part in the programme,
0:58:19 > 0:58:22either in Watford or Southend. And if you want to go to our website,
0:58:22 > 0:58:25the address is on the screen there, or call:
0:58:28 > 0:58:30If you're listening on Radio 5 Live,
0:58:30 > 0:58:33the debate will continue on Question Time Extra Time.
0:58:33 > 0:58:35My thanks to all our panellists here
0:58:35 > 0:58:38and to all of you who came to Gloucester to take part.
0:58:38 > 0:58:41From Question time, until next Thursday, goodnight.