:00:07. > :00:20.Welcome to Question Time which tonight comes from south London.
:00:21. > :00:23.On our panel tonight, the Conservative Chief Secretary to the
:00:24. > :00:27.Treasury, David Gauke. Labour's Shadow Chancellor John McDonnell was
:00:28. > :00:31.to have been here but was taken ill earlier today and his place has been
:00:32. > :00:37.taken by Chris Leslie, former Shadow Chancellor himself. The leader of
:00:38. > :00:40.the Liberal Democrats, Tim Farron. Professor of economics at Sussex
:00:41. > :00:45.University, Mariana Mazzucato. And the businessman who backed exit and
:00:46. > :00:50.runs a family chain of well over 1000 shops, mending shoes, watches,
:00:51. > :01:03.jewellery, cutting keys, you name it, John Timpson.
:01:04. > :01:13.Thank you very much. As ever, from home you can join the debate on
:01:14. > :01:19.Facebook or on Twitter, or by text. Our first question tonight from
:01:20. > :01:22.Brendan Clarke, please. The IFS say that in real terms wages will be
:01:23. > :01:31.less at the end of this Parliament than they were in 2008. Is this
:01:32. > :01:35.acceptable? Tim Farron. No, it isn't. I guess the standout
:01:36. > :01:40.memorable quote from the referendum campaign was from Michael Gove when
:01:41. > :01:45.he said, we have had enough of experts. The great danger is that
:01:46. > :01:48.what we have in this supposedly post-truth environment, people just
:01:49. > :01:54.shrug and say the figures mean nothing. These are independent
:01:55. > :01:57.figures from the IFS and the Government's known figures back them
:01:58. > :02:05.up. It means ordinary families right across the country by 2020, will be
:02:06. > :02:10.?1250 a year worse off than now. The reason, without a shadow of the
:02:11. > :02:14.doubt, is Brexit, and us heading for a hard Brexit. The danger is that
:02:15. > :02:18.people like me who say there is a black hole in the budget because of
:02:19. > :02:23.Brexit, who point to this loss of wealth and well-being for families
:02:24. > :02:26.around the country, will be called negative. But I say it is not
:02:27. > :02:30.negative to say you could make a different choice. It is not negative
:02:31. > :02:34.to say we don't have to go for a hard Brexit that was not on the
:02:35. > :02:38.ballot paper. It is positive to say we could remain in the single
:02:39. > :02:42.market. It is positive to say to the British people, you should have your
:02:43. > :02:45.say on the terms of the deal and if it does not look good for our
:02:46. > :02:47.country, our families, our business, we should have the right to remain.
:02:48. > :02:58.APPLAUSE David Gauke, he attributes it
:02:59. > :03:04.entirely to the Brexit vote, whereas the IFS says the worst decade for
:03:05. > :03:07.living standards, long before the vote, since the last war and
:03:08. > :03:16.probably since the 1920s, in other words in 100 years. The IFS analysis
:03:17. > :03:20.is for the period from 2008 until 2021. At the beginning of that point
:03:21. > :03:23.we had a very significant contraction to the UK economy and
:03:24. > :03:30.that has fed through into living standards. So the big effect over
:03:31. > :03:36.that period was in fact the recession in 2008. In terms of the
:03:37. > :03:38.next few years, the Office for Budget Responsibility said yesterday
:03:39. > :03:48.that they anticipate real household disposable income, a fair judge for
:03:49. > :03:53.living standards, to be 2.8% higher in 2020-21 than at the moment. So
:03:54. > :03:57.the words "We cannot stress how dreadful this is, it has been the
:03:58. > :04:03.worst decade since the last war and probably since the 1920s", that does
:04:04. > :04:09.not ring any bells with you? That is what the IFS said. You don't agree?
:04:10. > :04:13.A large part of that is because of the impact of the great recession.
:04:14. > :04:17.There is now the impact of what will happen over the next few years. The
:04:18. > :04:21.OBR thinks living standards over that period will rise, but not for
:04:22. > :04:26.the next couple of years. They have been rising quite strongly in the
:04:27. > :04:30.last year or two, but 2017 will be difficult because inflation is
:04:31. > :04:36.higher and that eats into living standards. And Tim is right to the
:04:37. > :04:43.extent to say that the OBR analysis is because the pound is weaker. Do
:04:44. > :04:47.you blame Brexit for it? The OBR's analysis is that the weaker pound
:04:48. > :04:52.comes from the Brexit vote. Do you blame Brexit? In terms of these
:04:53. > :04:59.forecasts, they are coming from the OBR... You said Brexit would push
:05:00. > :05:04.the UK into recession and lead to a sharp rise in unemployment. Is that
:05:05. > :05:10.still your view, as Chief Secretary? Do you stand by it? Well, the
:05:11. > :05:14.Treasury said that. What is striking is that the UK economy has been more
:05:15. > :05:20.resilient than was predicted at the start. The Treasury analysis assumed
:05:21. > :05:23.we would trigger article 50 straightaway and the Bank of England
:05:24. > :05:28.would not take the action that it did. Those things have been
:05:29. > :05:32.different than had been assumed. The UK economy has done better than
:05:33. > :05:34.expected, but it is not surprising there are some uncertainties, and
:05:35. > :05:40.that does play through into the performance of the economy. That is
:05:41. > :05:46.the OBR analysis we saw yesterday. The woman at the back. Tim Farron
:05:47. > :05:51.was talking about a hard Brexit as opposed to a soft Brexit as if it
:05:52. > :05:54.was our choice. Actually, Europe is so absolutely fed up with us that
:05:55. > :05:58.they are going to want to give us a hard Brexit because they will not
:05:59. > :06:03.want everybody is leaving on good terms. Let's come back to the
:06:04. > :06:09.question about the wages falling lower than in 2008. Mariana
:06:10. > :06:15.Mazzucato, what did you make of it? Acceptable, inevitable? Absolutely
:06:16. > :06:20.not inevitable. It is a result of the choices made in both the private
:06:21. > :06:24.and public sectors. We should ask where productivity comes from.
:06:25. > :06:27.Productivity is one of the lead potential factors that increase
:06:28. > :06:32.wages, as long as on the other side you also have Labour being able to
:06:33. > :06:36.negotiate higher wages. In fact, one of the problems is that even when
:06:37. > :06:39.productivity has been rising in the last decades, wages have not kept
:06:40. > :06:44.up. But just focusing for a minute on the issue of inequality, one
:06:45. > :06:49.issue is that inequality and what has been happening to wages has
:06:50. > :06:58.characterised the UK economy for ten years. We have to ask why? Will
:06:59. > :07:01.Brexit help that or hurt it? Why has productivity not been rising? Is it
:07:02. > :07:05.also a question of corporate governance? So profits, for example,
:07:06. > :07:10.in this country are at record levels. Investment is not. What is
:07:11. > :07:14.happening to profits in firms? Are they not being invested back into
:07:15. > :07:18.production, into the real economy, back into human capital formation,
:07:19. > :07:22.back into skills, into the workforce that can adapt to technological
:07:23. > :07:33.change? I would answer that the answer is no. Is it the worst decade
:07:34. > :07:40.since the 1920s, as the IFS suggests? In terms of stagnating
:07:41. > :07:45.real wages, yes. John Timpson. I am worried that we are talking about
:07:46. > :07:51.lots of forecasts. One thing certain about forecasts is that they will be
:07:52. > :07:57.wrong. And I don't think concentrating on that is
:07:58. > :08:03.particularly helpful. You mean just ignore them? No. Let me continue.
:08:04. > :08:06.The day after the Brexit vote, which surprised everybody, I very quickly
:08:07. > :08:10.got messages from people working in our shops that they were worried
:08:11. > :08:14.because they were hearing, from a lot of politicians, commentators,
:08:15. > :08:17.that this is an absolute disaster, things are going wrong, and they
:08:18. > :08:21.thought it was the end of the world. I sent an e-mail to everybody
:08:22. > :08:26.straightaway saying, we are still here, still repairing shoes and
:08:27. > :08:29.cutting keys, and you will still be successful if you continue to do
:08:30. > :08:36.what you have been doing, by giving great service. What we need is
:08:37. > :08:40.confidence. We need optimism. And these pessimistic forecasts are not
:08:41. > :08:46.helping. But we were not forecasting, we were talking about
:08:47. > :08:51.the last ten years. I'm sorry, I didn't take the point. We were not
:08:52. > :08:57.forecasting, but talking about the last ten years. We started... The
:08:58. > :09:01.question was about the IFS and also we talked about the office the
:09:02. > :09:05.budget responsibility, which are forecasts, making assumptions of
:09:06. > :09:09.what is going to happen. One of the joys of business is you don't know
:09:10. > :09:12.what is going to happen. That's what's so interesting, you don't
:09:13. > :09:15.know what is going to happen next. And individually, it would help us a
:09:16. > :09:23.lot more to make the most of the Brexit situation if we attack it
:09:24. > :09:28.with optimism, not pessimism. Because the Government has got a
:09:29. > :09:33.really serious job to do, to try and help everybody, not just the people
:09:34. > :09:36.who voted for out, the people who voted for in, but everyone, to come
:09:37. > :09:44.up with the best answer following the Brexit vote. You, sir, in the
:09:45. > :09:47.third row. I have an important point to make, which is that whilst
:09:48. > :09:53.average wages have stagnated over the period specified, pay at the top
:09:54. > :09:58.end has skyrocketed. In fact, this year, FTSE 100 bosses get paid 200
:09:59. > :10:03.times the average wage in the UK. That is seriously bad for everyone.
:10:04. > :10:04.So that is something I think should be addressed.
:10:05. > :10:14.APPLAUSE I would agree. I think there are
:10:15. > :10:18.massive inequalities in our society and these are some of the structural
:10:19. > :10:22.issues that Mariana was alluding to, I think. These figures from the
:10:23. > :10:27.Institute for Fiscal Studies, as well as the ones from the Office for
:10:28. > :10:31.Budget Responsibility may not be pessimistic. They may actually be
:10:32. > :10:35.quite optimistic. What we don't know yet about, for instance, the Brexit
:10:36. > :10:40.negotiation that the Government says we are not allowed to know what its
:10:41. > :10:44.destination is, for example, will we still be able to have financial
:10:45. > :10:47.services firms passport services into Europe, or will those products
:10:48. > :10:53.being illegal to sell into European countries? That could hit massively
:10:54. > :10:57.the revenues in tax that we get from some big in the street in this
:10:58. > :11:05.country, and that will, in turn, start that wrecks it austerity even
:11:06. > :11:10.further on. -- Brexit austerity. To a certain degree, it is partly
:11:11. > :11:13.self-inflicted. It is what the country have voted for on this
:11:14. > :11:18.particular route, but I will not give up my right as a member of
:11:19. > :11:25.Parliament to argue for the best possible form of Brexit, to protect
:11:26. > :11:29.jobs, to protect income, to stop this wages squeeze, and we will
:11:30. > :11:34.argue that all the way through. Do you think it can be reversed, in the
:11:35. > :11:38.way Tim Farron suggested? Personally, I do not think the
:11:39. > :11:43.Government have a plan. That is not what I asked. Do you think it can be
:11:44. > :11:47.reversed in the way Tim Farron said? If they don't come out with some
:11:48. > :11:52.transitional arrangements, so we avoid the cliff edge in 2019 when
:11:53. > :11:56.suddenly our rights to trade may be disappearing, then I do think we
:11:57. > :12:01.have to think about delaying even the triggering of article 50, until
:12:02. > :12:06.we get the negotiations right. This is too important to rush into
:12:07. > :12:10.something, especially before we have the French, German, the Dutch
:12:11. > :12:14.elections. We don't even know who we will be negotiating with half the
:12:15. > :12:20.time in European situation. We have to get this right, do it properly in
:12:21. > :12:26.the best possible way. So for Labour arguing that a delay
:12:27. > :12:37.in article 50. The woman in green on the left. I agree with John Timpson,
:12:38. > :12:40.in terms of I think the IFS are scaremongering. They are looking
:12:41. > :12:47.back. You should be looking forward. You will have a hard, before it can
:12:48. > :12:50.get better. But Mariana said they were describing actual reality over
:12:51. > :12:56.the last ten years when they said this. Tim Farron, you should hold
:12:57. > :13:00.your head in shame because all you talk about is Brexit and everything
:13:01. > :13:05.is blamed on Brexit. The people voted. You always say we did not
:13:06. > :13:09.vote to be in the single market. Everything that was on the ballot
:13:10. > :13:12.paper, immigration, we would have to leave the single market, taking
:13:13. > :13:15.control of our laws and Parliamentary sovereignty, have to
:13:16. > :13:19.leave the single market, taking control of our money, we have to
:13:20. > :13:23.leave the single market, taking control of immigration, like I said,
:13:24. > :13:28.you have to leave the single market. So saying that a hard Brexit, we
:13:29. > :13:32.didn't vote for it, we actually did, because the people who voted to
:13:33. > :13:36.leave the European Union voted for all of those reasons, and we have to
:13:37. > :13:40.leave the single market to leave the European Union. There is no doubt
:13:41. > :13:43.about it, that has to happen. For people like yourself to just walk
:13:44. > :13:48.across the will of the people, which we voted for by a majority, you have
:13:49. > :13:53.to accept that will of the people because it's just not... First of
:13:54. > :14:01.all, that's your opinion and you clearly wanted to leave the single
:14:02. > :14:04.market. Good for you. I cite David's ex-Conservative MP Stephen Phillips,
:14:05. > :14:08.who resigned from Parliament because like you, he voted Lever, but he
:14:09. > :14:12.says he never voted to leave the single market. Millions of people
:14:13. > :14:17.who voted Leave did not vote to do that. If we want to take back
:14:18. > :14:21.control, at the end of this process, I don't believe that Parliament
:14:22. > :14:24.should block leaving the European Union, I think Parliament should
:14:25. > :14:27.allow the British people a say in the terms of the deal at the end, so
:14:28. > :14:33.we go into this without eyes wide open. You can't start this process
:14:34. > :14:36.with democracy in June and end it with a stitch up two years down the
:14:37. > :14:41.line. It's time to allow the people to decide. If at the end of that
:14:42. > :14:45.process may decide that what is in front of us is something they do not
:14:46. > :14:52.want, then we should be allowing the British people to vote to remain.
:14:53. > :15:00.APPLAUSE. The woman in red there? People know
:15:01. > :15:05.what they voted for. When people joined in the '70s, they voted for
:15:06. > :15:08.the EEC, they voted not for a political union.
:15:09. > :15:13.APPLAUSE. Going back to the forecast and the
:15:14. > :15:18.question, I completely agree, it's got to get worse before better. The
:15:19. > :15:24.pound didn't fall and wasn't as bad as what people actually forecast.
:15:25. > :15:29.Except don't forget that we haven't actually left the European Union. I
:15:30. > :15:33.know, but there. There is a lot of expectations and I accept your
:15:34. > :15:35.point, people were fed up with the concept of the bureaucracy in the
:15:36. > :15:39.European Union. They wanted to leave. That was the result of the
:15:40. > :15:42.referendum. But don't think that the way your Government treats this will
:15:43. > :15:46.necessarily mean it's going to be all fantastic or all bad. It does
:15:47. > :15:50.matter how well they negotiate this. We've got to get them to focus on
:15:51. > :15:54.it. If you think you have confidence in the way that Theresa May and
:15:55. > :15:58.Philip Hammond and David are approaching this, well you know far
:15:59. > :16:02.more than anybody else in the country because so far, their
:16:03. > :16:05.pretence when they say we are not going to show you our cards is in
:16:06. > :16:08.reality, obviously they don't know what they are doing. Do you not
:16:09. > :16:12.think the Government needs to work together and do something. The
:16:13. > :16:17.people have spoken, you voted in fave of a referendum, now suddenly
:16:18. > :16:20.you are like, no, I don't want one. What is this about, it's democracy,
:16:21. > :16:26.you can't go against it. David Gauke? There is a lot in what you
:16:27. > :16:30.are saying there. I voted Remain. I wanted us to stay in. I was
:16:31. > :16:35.disappointed with the result. But it was the result and we can't keep
:16:36. > :16:38.coming back to the British people and saying keep voting until you
:16:39. > :16:43.make the right decision. That I fear is the position. We've got to make
:16:44. > :16:49.the best of it. That does mean we want to be in a position to keep
:16:50. > :16:53.barriers to trade and of goods and services with the European Union to
:16:54. > :16:58.a minimum. That's got to be a key part of what we seek to do. But we
:16:59. > :17:04.should also remember the UK's got a lot going for it as a country. We
:17:05. > :17:07.have got a very strong science base for example, investing more in
:17:08. > :17:12.research and development to support that. We've got a very strong
:17:13. > :17:17.financial services sector that actually a lot of European Union
:17:18. > :17:21.companies want to have access to. We have got an opportunity to make a
:17:22. > :17:25.success of it. It isn't what I wanted but it's what we've got, we
:17:26. > :17:28.have to get on, accept it and make the best of it.
:17:29. > :17:32.APPLAUSE. Is the pain that the IFS are
:17:33. > :17:38.describing which you say dates back to 2008 in part because of the
:17:39. > :17:41.Brexit decision, is it because the increased Government borrowing, not
:17:42. > :17:45.being able to spend as much as perhaps you would like to spend. Is
:17:46. > :17:48.that why the people that Theresa May talked about when she came into
:17:49. > :17:52.Downing Street that she wanted to help aren't really getting much SNP
:17:53. > :17:59.The IFS analysis covers 2008 to the early... I know that, I'm talking
:18:00. > :18:04.about Brexit though. Is it going to have a dill tierious effect on
:18:05. > :18:08.people's living standards? The analysis of the OBR, because
:18:09. > :18:11.inflation is higher than it otherwise would be, that would have
:18:12. > :18:16.an effect over that period whilst inflation is higher. As one who was
:18:17. > :18:20.making the arguments that there were economic risks for Brexit, you know,
:18:21. > :18:28.that information was out there, in the public domain. Those arguments
:18:29. > :18:34.were put. I regret the fact that 52% didn't... A lot... They did accept
:18:35. > :18:38.and know the decision. Has Boris Johnson given you an apology for all
:18:39. > :18:41.the promises he made about the extra money for the NHS? You remember the
:18:42. > :18:47.big red bus? APPLAUSE.
:18:48. > :18:51.What we saw in the budget, in the Autumn Statement yesterday and the
:18:52. > :18:57.IFS and the OBR have confirmed this, is an announcement that we are going
:18:58. > :19:00.to see ?290 million a week worse off, worse off because of this mess
:19:01. > :19:05.that we are in. Yes. Why isn't that on the side of a bus? Two can play
:19:06. > :19:09.at the game because also you said on the other hand in this thing that
:19:10. > :19:14.came out just before the vote, Brexit Budget ?30 million of tax
:19:15. > :19:20.rises, fuel and alcohol duties up by 5%, income tax up by 2p, higher rate
:19:21. > :19:25.by 3p, health spending cut by ?2.5 billion. That was your side of the
:19:26. > :19:30.argument. They borrowed it instead. ?20 billion. If the UK is... Nobody
:19:31. > :19:34.can be trusted on what happened before is the answer. If the UK
:19:35. > :19:38.economy is smaller than otherwise would have been, that is putting a
:19:39. > :19:45.strain on the balancing of the books. Mariana? I think it's great
:19:46. > :19:49.that we've actually began with the IFS figures which again look back at
:19:50. > :19:53.the last ten years because, if Brexit was the solution, and you are
:19:54. > :19:57.absolutely right, if people voted we must take it seriously, if Brexit
:19:58. > :20:00.was voted as the solution, what was the problem? Perhaps the problem is
:20:01. > :20:05.that we didn't have a proper diagnosis of that problem because,
:20:06. > :20:14.if we look at the prognosis, you know, looking ahead, what we are
:20:15. > :20:16.going to see a potentially worsening of these problems, lagging
:20:17. > :20:21.productivity and business investment. John said he invests
:20:22. > :20:25.when he sees an opportunity and let's make Brexit an opportunity. We
:20:26. > :20:33.are currently seeing investment leaving precisely because what leads
:20:34. > :20:37.investment is where future market and technoopportunities are. We have
:20:38. > :20:40.shrunk our market massively, we are potentially already losing the way
:20:41. > :20:45.to, for example, collaborate. This was the lack of a positive vision I
:20:46. > :20:49.think by the way during the whole Brexit campaign to collaborate with
:20:50. > :20:56.European neighbours in terms of a green transformation of the entire
:20:57. > :20:59.European region, something that schn is doing, spending #137bed.7
:21:00. > :21:06.trillion on their economy in a greener direction -- China is doing.
:21:07. > :21:10.It's very hard to do these thingses just alone as a nation. We could
:21:11. > :21:11.have seen this as a business opportunity to increase the dynamism
:21:12. > :21:19.of our country. APPLAUSE.
:21:20. > :21:25.John Timpson? I'll just explain how it creates an
:21:26. > :21:31.opportunity. Because business is about people, it's about ideas, it's
:21:32. > :21:34.not about a process. And you can't invent a process that's going to
:21:35. > :21:39.create the results, you have got to give people the freedom to be able
:21:40. > :21:43.to run their business in a way that it will create success. I've seen
:21:44. > :21:47.this work. I give total authority to the people in my business to do what
:21:48. > :21:50.they think is right to do their job. It's the way we actually run our
:21:51. > :21:54.shops and it's been fantastic. That's been the secret of our
:21:55. > :22:00.success. That's the only way to give people great service. You are in the
:22:01. > :22:04.retail business, it's not exactly big manufacturing or scientific
:22:05. > :22:07.enterprise or IT. You have 1400 shops, that's different. You might
:22:08. > :22:12.say it's difficult to give people freedom. I can see that. To that
:22:13. > :22:15.number of shops when they are all over the place. It's a question of
:22:16. > :22:19.whether it touches on what Maria that is saying. It does you see.
:22:20. > :22:23.Fundamental to a lot of people that voted to leave the EU was the idea
:22:24. > :22:26.that they wanted to be in charge of their own decisions. They did not
:22:27. > :22:30.want to be told what to do by Europe. In actual fact, they don't
:22:31. > :22:33.want the laws to be replicated too much by Westminster either. By
:22:34. > :22:41.giving that freedom to businesses, if they are then in a position to
:22:42. > :22:46.create success, create wealth. It doesn't just apply, I have proved,
:22:47. > :22:50.to a cobbler. Just because we are a family business and we do something
:22:51. > :22:56.peculiar. I've seen this work in a school. I've seen how giving,
:22:57. > :23:01.letting teachers do what they actually came into the profession to
:23:02. > :23:06.do by being free to inspire the children in their class according to
:23:07. > :23:12.the syllabus that works for them within the National Curriculum but
:23:13. > :23:18.not specific against every dot and I. There was an investment into the
:23:19. > :23:22.none, the competence of the school in order to be structured in a
:23:23. > :23:26.particular way, these things don't come out of thin air, they are
:23:27. > :23:29.cumulative, they are part of that investment, so we are talking about
:23:30. > :23:33.investment. They are given the freedom to bring their personality
:23:34. > :23:38.into the job. All right. APPLAUSE.
:23:39. > :23:41.You in blue? I don't think it's right. You are claiming there that
:23:42. > :23:45.everyone that voted for Brexit knew what they were voting for and that
:23:46. > :23:51.they voted for it anyway. Do you think all 17 million people knew it
:23:52. > :23:57.would cost Britain ?58.7 million when they voted for it because I
:23:58. > :24:00.don't? We keep talking about democracy and taking back control. I
:24:01. > :24:05.don't think a Prime Minister that we haven't voted for who is now taking
:24:06. > :24:09.us to a model of hard Brexit which 48% of people, that is still
:24:10. > :24:12.democracy, it's 48% of people still being ignored. She's not even
:24:13. > :24:13.willing to take it through Parliament, that's not taking back
:24:14. > :24:19.control. APPLAUSE.
:24:20. > :24:23.The woman there? I think the fact that you are saying that people
:24:24. > :24:27.voted for Brexit based on the idea that they wanted power, their
:24:28. > :24:30.control back in making their own decisions, rather than it being in
:24:31. > :24:33.the hands of EU officials only gives power to the argument that the
:24:34. > :24:37.British population should be very much involved in the negotiation and
:24:38. > :24:44.the way that we make this Brexit decision and what that will mean.
:24:45. > :24:48.OK. You, Sir? I think the basic principle should have been that
:24:49. > :24:53.there should have been a plan perhaps of some sort and...
:24:54. > :25:00.LAUGHTER. That's a thought. You are nodding your head, but the basic
:25:01. > :25:03.point is... Hold on. None of the other political parties have said
:25:04. > :25:07.the Conservatives have no plan, this is what we'd do, this is how we'd
:25:08. > :25:12.negotiate if the public are to say this is our decision, we do not want
:25:13. > :25:16.to reverse it, yet neither of you have said, this is what we'd do,
:25:17. > :25:22.this is how we'd negotiate, we'd offer this and therefore get that
:25:23. > :25:26.back. So all you do is attack. No, no, you are completely right, if you
:25:27. > :25:30.are going on a journey, it's good to know your destination, and I think
:25:31. > :25:35.the plan is to know that you want to maximise your access to the single
:25:36. > :25:39.market. The other 27 countries. If we can't sell and export our goods
:25:40. > :25:46.to them, we are going to be in an even bigger hole than the IFS have
:25:47. > :25:52.announced. The man up there? To go back to the point of an un-I elected
:25:53. > :25:56.Prime Minister, let's go back to the unelected European President. You
:25:57. > :26:00.are missing the bigger picture, we are not just trying to get Britain
:26:01. > :26:04.outside the EU, we are trying to collapse the EU itself, we are
:26:05. > :26:17.trying to get other countries out of the EU. Stop the EU is more like an
:26:18. > :26:22.USSSR. The reality is, none of you here really understand how the
:26:23. > :26:31.European Union works. It's not a democracy. The MEPs are just
:26:32. > :26:38.cosmetic fronts. My solution to our problem now, if I were Prime
:26:39. > :26:52.Minister, which I'm not, I would give 90 days notice to the European
:26:53. > :26:58.Union. Unilateral independence, I would declare that. You, Sir? I
:26:59. > :27:05.don't think anyone can speak for how everybody individually voted. 48% of
:27:06. > :27:10.the population decided they wanted to remain. Concessions need to be
:27:11. > :27:14.made. If the vote had gone the other way, we wouldn't be hurtling towards
:27:15. > :27:19.a closer union. People have some things they are not happy about in
:27:20. > :27:23.the union so let's move in the opposite direction. The people not
:27:24. > :27:27.being spoken for are the people that voted to remain. Maybe we should
:27:28. > :27:30.focus on what they want because it wasn't a landslide victory, it
:27:31. > :27:39.wasn't a clear mandate. APPLAUSE.
:27:40. > :27:42.You, Sir? Why don't we try and gauge something... We used to have the
:27:43. > :27:45.Commonwealth. We are in the Commonwealth, why can't we trade
:27:46. > :27:50.with the Commonwealth? We do not need a single market. There is no
:27:51. > :27:55.such thing as a hard or soft Brexit. Out means out and that is it.
:27:56. > :28:03.OK. This question's come up ever since the vote and I think we may
:28:04. > :28:07.move on now to another point. Can I just say one last thing on a
:28:08. > :28:11.positive note. One last thing. I was saying we need a positive discourse
:28:12. > :28:14.as well. The environmental regulations have brought huge
:28:15. > :28:18.advance across Europe and they would not have existed without the
:28:19. > :28:22.European Union. Workers' rights have been fought for, especially by the
:28:23. > :28:29.European Union, they were not fought for as strongly within the country.
:28:30. > :28:33.Just in terms of research financing, 8.8 billion is what the UK's gotten
:28:34. > :28:39.from the European Union in the last five years while they only
:28:40. > :28:43.contributed 5.4 billion. We have been net beneficiaries of the
:28:44. > :28:47.European Union and perhaps some of these numbers should have been out
:28:48. > :28:50.there in terms of the positive story of why to remain not just the threat
:28:51. > :28:50.of what was going to happen if we left.
:28:51. > :29:05.APPLAUSE. Let us go on. We are going to be in
:29:06. > :29:08.Wakefield next week. We are in Maidenhead, the Prime Minister's
:29:09. > :29:11.constituency the week after that. So Wakefield or Maidenhead, come and
:29:12. > :29:15.take part in a discussion in the audience. Details at the end. They
:29:16. > :29:22.are on the screen if you want to note them down. Ryan Russell's
:29:23. > :29:29.question, please? A very important issue here. Should the Government
:29:30. > :29:32.put the national interests of our Party Politics and promote Nigel
:29:33. > :29:40.Farage to British Ambassador to the United States? David Gauke? You know
:29:41. > :29:51.the tweet from Mr Trump saying he'd be the ideal person? I don't think
:29:52. > :29:55.we should appoint Nigel Farage. Firstly there isn't a vacancy.
:29:56. > :29:59.Second, the job of being an ambassador to a country involves
:30:00. > :30:03.rather more than just being on good terms with the head of state or
:30:04. > :30:08.future head of state. An advantage though it may be, there are other
:30:09. > :30:11.qualities that are also needed. For example, you do knead to be a
:30:12. > :30:20.diplomat. LAUGHTER.
:30:21. > :30:31.And looking from the outside at the UK Independence Party, it would be
:30:32. > :30:35.fair to say that just because at one point Nigel Farage is on good terms
:30:36. > :30:39.with you, it doesn't mean that is going to stay the case, looking at
:30:40. > :30:49.Douglas Carswell, Suzanne Evans, Diane Jones, Steven Woolfe. In fact,
:30:50. > :30:55.pretty well every Ukip politician I can think of. So I think the
:30:56. > :30:59.national interest is probably in allowing the current ambassador to
:31:00. > :31:03.continue in his place. If, of course, Nigel Farage wants to be a
:31:04. > :31:08.sort of back channel, even then I am not sure he is the right person.
:31:09. > :31:10.Sometimes there are people who work behind-the-scenes unobtrusively,
:31:11. > :31:14.providing information to the Government, but I don't think you do
:31:15. > :31:19.that and then take a selfie every time. So I am afraid I think Nigel
:31:20. > :31:28.Farage's use here would be quite limited. John Timpson. I think
:31:29. > :31:32.you've got to give it a Nigel Farage, he is entertaining. He's
:31:33. > :31:36.certainly made a name for himself. I actually quite enjoy the way he
:31:37. > :31:42.entertains us on the television, the way he puts his own point across.
:31:43. > :31:48.But we can't really be serious about accepting him, as you say, is he a
:31:49. > :31:53.diplomat? It is not for Donald Trump to tell us who we should be sending
:31:54. > :32:00.anyway. When Jack Kennedy was President, he asked for a particular
:32:01. > :32:05.ambassador, and McMillan did send him, thinking it was the best way of
:32:06. > :32:08.keeping in with the American President. That is absolutely true
:32:09. > :32:14.but I still don't think it is for Donald Trump to decide that he
:32:15. > :32:17.should appoint Nigel Farage. Although I just wonder what would
:32:18. > :32:23.happen if he did go there. It would be great. But it might make things
:32:24. > :32:31.even worse. I think the answer is no. To say that Nigel Farage is a
:32:32. > :32:38.kind of nice, lovable guy is terrible. He has increased racial
:32:39. > :32:41.tensions in this country. He's ruined this country. Racism has gone
:32:42. > :32:45.up, there are fights on the street, it is to do with him, and it has
:32:46. > :32:50.made a fool of Theresa May and there should be a general election, in my
:32:51. > :32:54.opinion. You asked the question, what is your view? I don't
:32:55. > :32:58.necessarily think it is a bad thing to have a friend on the other side
:32:59. > :33:01.of the Atlantic dealing with the Trump team, a friend of the UK,
:33:02. > :33:07.which Nigel Farage clearly is, regardless of whether you think is
:33:08. > :33:11.politics is correct or not. What are friends for? You don't just suck up
:33:12. > :33:15.to them, you learn from them, have a real exchange. That is the question.
:33:16. > :33:20.What kind of relationship do we want between the UK and the US? Again,
:33:21. > :33:25.thinking positively, given that both countries are talking about
:33:26. > :33:32.investment, there is infrastructure talk in the US, a serious industrial
:33:33. > :33:35.strategy being discussed in the UK, both countries are talking about the
:33:36. > :33:39.people who have been left behind, it would be very interesting if we had
:33:40. > :33:42.an ambassador, which we do, there is no vacancy, that could strike an
:33:43. > :33:48.interesting, progressive conversation with the US, even just
:33:49. > :33:51.on those issues, inequality, infrastructure and investment. Does
:33:52. > :33:55.Nigel Farage have the quality to strike that relationship? I don't
:33:56. > :33:59.think so. If he does, he has not revealed those qualities. I think
:34:00. > :34:03.that's very important. Ambassadors are not there just to go out and
:34:04. > :34:08.have a pint, just to be friends. I am sure Trump has other friends.
:34:09. > :34:11.What we really need between the UK and all sorts of other different
:34:12. > :34:15.countries, especially because of Brexit, is striking and interesting
:34:16. > :34:19.opportunity- focused relationship and really changing the vocabulary
:34:20. > :34:25.through which we can talk to these countries, precisely because... You
:34:26. > :34:29.don't think that among the 4 million or so people who voted Ukip there
:34:30. > :34:34.are those very people you are describing, who Nigel Farage could
:34:35. > :34:38.represent? The people who got left behind, who feel discontented? This
:34:39. > :34:42.goes back to the previous conversation which is, why have
:34:43. > :34:45.these people been left behind? If we look at Trump, he has benefited
:34:46. > :34:51.massively from the dynamics that have caused so many people to be
:34:52. > :34:55.left behind in the US. Whether it is the tax dodging, the constant
:34:56. > :34:58.requests for taxes to fall. And by the way, this country has just gone
:34:59. > :35:01.through another tax decreasing of corporate income tax, even though
:35:02. > :35:06.the great entrepreneurs say they do not even look at tax, but that
:35:07. > :35:08.opportunities. These kind of dynamics of tax evasion and
:35:09. > :35:14.shareholder capitalism which in the US has gone wild, is precisely the
:35:15. > :35:16.kind of ills that have produced inequality in this country as well.
:35:17. > :35:28.APPLAUSE I will go to the woman up there. I
:35:29. > :35:32.think a lot of people are afraid of Trump and Nigel Farage, what they
:35:33. > :35:36.have done for racial tensions especially. I know a lot of my
:35:37. > :35:42.friends who are Muslim, and I know that they are scared what will
:35:43. > :35:45.happen. I think in this country, we have had a true value of tolerance
:35:46. > :35:52.and understanding from different races. Although I think we should
:35:53. > :35:57.trade with America, I don't think we should change our values, our
:35:58. > :35:57.tolerance to other religions and cultures.
:35:58. > :36:08.APPLAUSE Whilst this is surely a topical
:36:09. > :36:12.question, I struggle even giving my point across because I don't really
:36:13. > :36:14.want to give Nigel Farage more political oxygen than he already
:36:15. > :36:20.has. APPLAUSE
:36:21. > :36:29.So you don't want to mention his name, even? Unfortunately I had to.
:36:30. > :36:37.But also to say that surely any endorsement from Donald Trump is an
:36:38. > :36:48.automatic disqualification. I don't know about you but I still struggle
:36:49. > :36:51.with the concept that the Donald is President of the United States. I
:36:52. > :36:53.don't know if you saw Nigel Farage, man of the people, in the Ritz
:36:54. > :36:58.before being flown over their by Aaron Banks to see Donald Trump in
:36:59. > :37:04.his golden tower. When I heard that Nigel Farage might not be moving
:37:05. > :37:08.over to the States, I thought maybe Thanksgiving had come early. But
:37:09. > :37:13.actually, there is a serious point. We do have to make sure Britain is
:37:14. > :37:16.not superfine. We are a sovereign country, we can stand up for
:37:17. > :37:20.ourselves. We can have good alliances, whether with Europe or
:37:21. > :37:24.America, but we have to make sure we pick our person. That is our job and
:37:25. > :37:30.that is the important role that a UK ambassador has to have. By the way,
:37:31. > :37:36.if he is going to send a US ambassador to the UK, maybe he
:37:37. > :37:45.should consider Hillary Clinton. Tim Farron. I think the possibility of
:37:46. > :37:53.Nigel Farage being the ambassador to the United States is terrifying. I
:37:54. > :37:56.think it is extremely unlikely. It terrifies me in particular because
:37:57. > :38:00.of what it would say about the United Kingdom. The 52% of people
:38:01. > :38:06.who voted to leave, including loads of people I know. My constituency
:38:07. > :38:10.voted to remain but I come from somewhere where pretty much every
:38:11. > :38:13.constituency voted to leave. I reckon I am the only working-class
:38:14. > :38:16.party leader in this country so I know loads of people who voted to
:38:17. > :38:21.leave the European Union and they are almost all of them outward
:38:22. > :38:27.looking, decent, tolerant people who just happened to disagree with me on
:38:28. > :38:32.June 23. Nigel Farage, Chew Stoke to racism and vision in our country
:38:33. > :38:35.does not speak for those people. -- the man who stoked racism and vision
:38:36. > :38:39.in our country does not speak for the overwhelming majority of people
:38:40. > :38:43.in this country. I want British values projected across the world
:38:44. > :38:48.for good, as being outward looking, decent, open and tolerant. However
:38:49. > :38:52.you voted on the 23rd of June, Nigel Farage does not speak of that kind
:38:53. > :38:53.of Britain, does not speak for the Britain that I know.
:38:54. > :39:12.CHEERING AND APPLAUSE I want to get two more questions.
:39:13. > :39:19.Meena Agrawal, please. Should the NHS ask for patient ID to reduce the
:39:20. > :39:22.cost of treatment of patients not entitled to elective NHS treatment?
:39:23. > :39:26.This was the proposal that you had to show a passport before you were
:39:27. > :39:33.treated, not if you had an accident but if you came over for special
:39:34. > :39:37.treatment. Mariana. As an economist, I would say let's look at the costs
:39:38. > :39:45.and the benefits, in a dynamic sense. I have been in the UK since
:39:46. > :39:50.1999, working, paying tax. I have had four kids here, four in five
:39:51. > :39:58.years. I am crazily reproductive, I guess. You don't need to let us into
:39:59. > :40:02.all your secrets! No one ever asked me for a passport. If they did
:40:03. > :40:08.today, if I showed them my Italian passport, what would it say? Surely
:40:09. > :40:13.the current ID I have does not show I have been paying tax here since
:40:14. > :40:19.1999, so we would need another IDE. Apparently, I hear that the Brits do
:40:20. > :40:23.not mind having CCTV on every corner of the way walking around in the
:40:24. > :40:27.street, but they do mind the issue of ID cards. There is the question
:40:28. > :40:33.of whether there would be consensus about an ID card. But also, what
:40:34. > :40:37.would the cost be? Currently, the cost, the actual shirkers, in terms
:40:38. > :40:41.of not paying back into the NHS, apparently the numbers, you probably
:40:42. > :40:47.know them that than I do, it is between 200, and 250 million, is
:40:48. > :40:54.that right? If we can properly enforce a regime here, it could be
:40:55. > :41:00.worth ?500 million to the NHS. That is the key thing. There is a system
:41:01. > :41:05.in place. Of course, nobody should need to produce ID if they are in a
:41:06. > :41:08.life-threatening situation. You get on and treat somebody. That is not
:41:09. > :41:12.what we're talking about. But if someone is getting more routine
:41:13. > :41:17.treatment, we have a set of rules. The question is can we enforce them?
:41:18. > :41:23.Would you show your passport when you went to hospital? Is that the
:41:24. > :41:26.idea? Who would be asked? All we are looking at the moment, a couple of
:41:27. > :41:29.pilot areas where there have been particular issues of not being able
:41:30. > :41:39.to enforce these rules terribly well, ways in which people, there is
:41:40. > :41:43.a question of checking IDs. But hang on, how... Is there a racist
:41:44. > :41:49.overtones to this? How do you decide who to ask for their passport? You
:41:50. > :41:54.say you would not ask you. We are looking at ways we can pilot this to
:41:55. > :41:58.test it. That is a fair question about racial profiling and so on.
:41:59. > :42:02.But we do have a system where this is a National Health Service, for
:42:03. > :42:08.people who are resident here, who pay into the system. You do need to
:42:09. > :42:14.deal with issues of health tourism and make sure that people do pay the
:42:15. > :42:19.right amount. The question is a practical one, how to enforce that.
:42:20. > :42:22.That is all this is about. I have a totally selfish reason to be in
:42:23. > :42:31.favour of this, because part of my business takes passport photos, and
:42:32. > :42:35.we do... And it would no doubt increased turnover in our shops. But
:42:36. > :42:42.that's not a good reason to approve this. I do think the NHS needs as
:42:43. > :42:47.much simplification as possible. The last thing you want to do is to add
:42:48. > :42:50.more and more systems. Let's just concentrate on getting it better for
:42:51. > :42:51.the people who look after patients. Keep it simple.
:42:52. > :43:01.APPLAUSE I am about to finish medical school
:43:02. > :43:06.and I will never ask a patient for their passport. I think it is
:43:07. > :43:11.ethically reprehensible. What I really struggle with is the idea of
:43:12. > :43:14.this ?500 million. You will never be to raise that and convince doctors
:43:15. > :43:18.to ask the passports. How much are you going to spend refurbishing
:43:19. > :43:29.Buckingham Palace? ?400 million. This is a disgrace. First of all, we
:43:30. > :43:33.called for an injection of ?4 billion into the NHS in the Autumn
:43:34. > :43:38.Statement yesterday. Instead, we got not a penny for the NHS and instead
:43:39. > :43:41.a ?4 billion giveaway in corporate tax to wealthy people who do not
:43:42. > :43:45.need it. That is what we should have been doing yesterday in the Autumn
:43:46. > :43:49.Statement. If there is a case, and there will be, for regrouping from
:43:50. > :43:52.some people and NHS cost, those who are not entitled to it free at the
:43:53. > :43:56.point of use, some people from overseas, then the NHS should do
:43:57. > :44:01.that in a proper way. But this is not the way to do it. I think David
:44:02. > :44:09.is a decent man, most people's favourite Tory. He is a decent,
:44:10. > :44:15.moderate individual. You've spoilt it now. The Tory party has been
:44:16. > :44:20.taken over by, frankly, right-wing English nationalists, in the same
:44:21. > :44:23.way that Momentum has taken over the Labour Party. This is all about
:44:24. > :44:28.Theresa May playing to that gallery, the same way that she told
:44:29. > :44:32.businesses that they need to produce a list of foreign workers. The same
:44:33. > :44:36.way that as schools asking parents to prove where their children were
:44:37. > :44:40.born, in this country or otherwise. And the same with this awful
:44:41. > :44:44.passport rule. I want my teachers to teach, doctors to make people better
:44:45. > :44:47.and border security people to deal with border security. That is how we
:44:48. > :44:52.should deal with this. APPLAUSE
:44:53. > :44:57.First, thank you for your kind words. But more importantly, if you
:44:58. > :45:02.accept the principle that we have got to re-coop costs that are
:45:03. > :45:05.incurred when they should be incurred, then you do have to start
:45:06. > :45:10.wrestling with some of the practicalities as to how you do it.
:45:11. > :45:14.This has come from comments made by the permanent Secretary for the
:45:15. > :45:19.Department of Health. Just asking questions about how do you
:45:20. > :45:24.practically do it. This is about sounding the dog whistle. A foghorn,
:45:25. > :45:28.not a dog whistle. The reason this story is in the news is because a
:45:29. > :45:33.question was asked of a civil servant, just dealing with the
:45:34. > :45:37.practical points of how do you sure that we actually check this. Because
:45:38. > :45:40.quite rightly the Government and the health service would be criticised
:45:41. > :45:45.if we had a set of rules were not properly enforced. Because this is
:45:46. > :45:50.serious money that gets ploughed back into the health service and we
:45:51. > :45:56.shouldn't be leaking money in this way. We should be reinvesting it in
:45:57. > :46:01.the health service. They should not do it in this sort of blatant,
:46:02. > :46:06.sensationalist way. How would you do it? You said you had a better
:46:07. > :46:10.scheme. Earlier, you said, we have a scheme to do it better. How would
:46:11. > :46:14.you do it? You said you had a better scheme for getting money back from
:46:15. > :46:18.people who are not entitled to the service. Other countries in Europe
:46:19. > :46:21.do it by making sure you have details and you follow them up
:46:22. > :46:26.afterwards. The reality is most people who use the NHS are living
:46:27. > :46:29.and working in the UK. People who are migrants to this country are
:46:30. > :46:33.more likely to be paying tax on average than people born in this
:46:34. > :46:37.country. Is there is no such thing of health tourism? There will be
:46:38. > :46:42.some. But this is about sending a dog whistle...
:46:43. > :46:49.The woman at the back? Hi. I don't agree with the Lib Dem leader. I do
:46:50. > :46:53.think that although yes, majority of people do live and work here and do
:46:54. > :46:58.Cameron tribute towards the NHS, I don't think it's fair for people to
:46:59. > :47:02.come in and use services that they don't contribute towards. I just
:47:03. > :47:05.don't think it's fair. I think we need to find a happy medium where
:47:06. > :47:10.people do contribute and can gain from it. I would be happy enough to
:47:11. > :47:13.pay for someone for them to receive cancer treatment rather than someone
:47:14. > :47:15.just coming in and taking without putting in in the first place.
:47:16. > :47:23.APPLAUSE. OK. The woman there?
:47:24. > :47:29.In my opinion, there is no such thing as a moderate Tory, there's
:47:30. > :47:31.just a Tory. The last six years, your Government, alongside the
:47:32. > :47:36.Liberal Democrats have been dismantling the NHS and now this
:47:37. > :47:40.thing of ID cards is moving us closer to the American system where
:47:41. > :47:44.our country stands for free health carefree at the point of service,
:47:45. > :47:46.that's something I'm proud of and both your parties are responsible
:47:47. > :47:54.for the state the NHS is in today. APPLAUSE.
:47:55. > :47:58.You, Sir? We all love the NHS. We get incredibly emotional about it.
:47:59. > :48:03.The short thing is, these things cost money and you need to look
:48:04. > :48:08.after and manage the service. We wouldn't charge people at the point
:48:09. > :48:13.of use was the thing that was muted. Why not give people the bill saying
:48:14. > :48:16.this is what it would cost, not charging them, just making it
:48:17. > :48:19.transparent so we care more about what these things cost.
:48:20. > :48:24.Chris Leslie? I think this is a really valuable
:48:25. > :48:28.discussion because there are two competing issues here. On the one
:48:29. > :48:33.hand I would agree, I don't want medics turning into sort of
:48:34. > :48:36.bureaucrats and having to go through some expensive convoluted checking
:48:37. > :48:39.system for entitlements, but on the other hand, I do believe in the
:48:40. > :48:42.contributory principle. I do think that if you are going to take
:48:43. > :48:46.something out of the system, you should put something into the system
:48:47. > :48:49.too, according to your ability. That I think is a fundamental principle
:48:50. > :48:54.of the welfare statement and our National Health Service. So, you
:48:55. > :48:59.know, I personally never really had that much of a problem with the ID
:49:00. > :49:02.cards suggestion when it came up probably about 20 years ago under
:49:03. > :49:06.the Labour Government. It didn't go through at the time, people said
:49:07. > :49:09.maybe you could do voluntary arrangements but that defeated the
:49:10. > :49:12.purpose. So I'm afraid I'm going to be a politician today that says I
:49:13. > :49:17.don't know the full solution to this one. I know that probably will kill
:49:18. > :49:21.my career, but I think we've got to balance these two aspects up. I want
:49:22. > :49:27.to make sure that the contributory principle is supported but I also
:49:28. > :49:30.want to make sure that we have that great fantastic cherished principle
:49:31. > :49:33.of the NHS which is that when the need is there, when people have to
:49:34. > :49:36.be treated, they can get it and we don't have to think about people's
:49:37. > :49:40.backgrounds and income. All right.
:49:41. > :49:44.You, briefly? One question, what's wrong with a bit of common-sense? I
:49:45. > :49:48.mean, the NHS is free at the point of use, so it's very important that
:49:49. > :49:53.we make sure that only those entitled to use it freely should be
:49:54. > :49:56.allowed to do so. It's not racist to ensure that our generosity is not
:49:57. > :50:03.being abused. APPLAUSE.
:50:04. > :50:06.I think that this conversation will be very different if for the last
:50:07. > :50:10.seven or eight years we had been investing in the system and cared
:50:11. > :50:13.for it and then also wanted to make it more efficient precisely in the
:50:14. > :50:16.way that you just mentioned which I think is absolutely correct. The
:50:17. > :50:20.problem is that we are talking about this in a specific situation where
:50:21. > :50:24.the NHS has not only been cut in terms of the actual health care
:50:25. > :50:29.services but also... Spending more than we ever have on the NHS. They
:50:30. > :50:34.didn't mention nit the Autumn Statement. Put ?6 billion in this
:50:35. > :50:37.year. It needs more money is the fundamental thing. We have to be
:50:38. > :50:41.honest with the British people some time soon to say that if it involves
:50:42. > :50:46.paying more taxes, we are going to have to be honest with the British
:50:47. > :50:49.people, otherwise we'll not give people the dignity of care from
:50:50. > :50:54.cradle to grave. APPLAUSE.
:50:55. > :51:06.A lot of hands up. Briefly from you, madam? I was 27 years nursing at the
:51:07. > :51:10.bedside in NHS hospitals. I've been thinking back and successive
:51:11. > :51:19.Governments have not invested in the NHS. I think there's more important
:51:20. > :51:24.things you need to be thinking about than health tourists. You've got to
:51:25. > :51:31.settle the problem with the junior doctors and I hope they won't go on
:51:32. > :51:40.strike again. I was being left in Oxford running hospital wards when I
:51:41. > :51:46.was about 19 or 20. We were working 42 and a half hours then. I think it
:51:47. > :51:51.was Labour who cut our hours but also our pay went down. So not
:51:52. > :51:56.wanting to disrupt your story, are you saying this is a trivial issue
:51:57. > :52:00.compared with what is happening now? There are four hospitals in
:52:01. > :52:12.south-west London under threat, one of them is under threat. My hospital
:52:13. > :52:15.was, wait a minute, by Labour, became PFI and I left. We were
:52:16. > :52:22.talking about that one issue and I think we have got that clear. I want
:52:23. > :52:27.to take this last question, from Tony Kurzer, please? Tony Blair said
:52:28. > :52:30.there are millions of effectively politically homeless people in the
:52:31. > :52:33.UK. Is he right? Politically homeless people. He
:52:34. > :52:37.appears to be flirting with the idea of getting back in some way into
:52:38. > :52:44.British politics. Chris Leslie, would you welcome his return and do
:52:45. > :52:50.you think he... Well, I think Tony Blair served this country as Prime
:52:51. > :52:53.Minister and he's a figure who I think certainly provokes lot of
:52:54. > :52:58.reaction. I am very proud of what the Labour Government did in our
:52:59. > :53:02.time in office when you think of the achievements, especially we were
:53:03. > :53:05.just talking about the NHS massive increases in the resources, the
:53:06. > :53:08.cutting of the waiting lists and so I think if he has something to
:53:09. > :53:12.contribute in terms of how this country should go forward, anybody
:53:13. > :53:16.would want to... You are dodging the question. He says millions of people
:53:17. > :53:20.are politically homeless. You are a Labour MP. Do you think there are
:53:21. > :53:26.millions of people that you are not touching? It's no secret that I
:53:27. > :53:28.didn't support Jeremy Corbyn for the leadership of the Labour Party.
:53:29. > :53:33.There is a discussion going on within the Labour Party about how we
:53:34. > :53:35.should position ourselves versus the Conservatives because ultimately
:53:36. > :53:42.it's a choice between a Conservative and a Labour Government. I want to
:53:43. > :53:46.make sure that Labour is as fit as possible to win the next general
:53:47. > :53:51.election and I will continue to fight for what I regard as strong
:53:52. > :53:55.centre-left values making sure yes, we do believe in tackling the
:53:56. > :54:00.inequalities and disadvantages in society but also we are capable and
:54:01. > :54:03.credible to be a Government which cares about economic responsibility
:54:04. > :54:08.which defends national security and those are the issues going on right
:54:09. > :54:12.now within the Labour Party. John Timpson, as a non-MP, do you think
:54:13. > :54:21.people are politically homeless in this country and that Tony Blair
:54:22. > :54:26.might appeal to them? I'm sure there are plenty of people that feel they
:54:27. > :54:30.are not properly represented. I'm not suggesting Tony Blair is the
:54:31. > :54:33.right person to take up their cause. The people I'm thinking about are
:54:34. > :54:39.people who're not just fixed by money. One problem I've seen quite a
:54:40. > :54:43.lot as a foster carer and the fact that we employ a lot of people
:54:44. > :54:49.coming out of prison, I've seen the problems happen by not having a unit
:54:50. > :54:52.in the family, not having strong societies where people knit together
:54:53. > :54:58.with neighbours and we've got a massive problem in this country
:54:59. > :55:01.which is drugs, people lending money, pay-day loans or any other
:55:02. > :55:08.loans which are ruining people's lives. This is nothing to do with
:55:09. > :55:14.money. There are a lot of people, a lot of them do finish up in prison
:55:15. > :55:19.and a lot of the people who actually were looked after as children, they
:55:20. > :55:23.go through life with attachment problems. We want somebody to look
:55:24. > :55:29.after them. All right. I'm going to have to
:55:30. > :55:34.hurry us along. I'm told we have just a couple of minutes left. David
:55:35. > :55:36.Gauke? There are a lot of people who feel politically homeless,
:55:37. > :55:41.traditional Labour voters, if you like. What's driving this is what
:55:42. > :55:44.has happened to the Labour Party under Jeremy Corbyn, clearly the
:55:45. > :55:49.Labour Party's moved off to the far left that they are not in touch with
:55:50. > :55:52.the values of the vast majority of people who've traditionally voted
:55:53. > :55:57.Labour. What I would say to those people is that, if you want a party
:55:58. > :56:02.that wants to ensure that the country works for everybody, then...
:56:03. > :56:07.All right... . Tim Farron, as long as you promise not to say exactly
:56:08. > :56:10.the same thing? I won't be asking people to vote Conservative, no.
:56:11. > :56:16.LAUGHTER. I am not a massive Blair fan. I
:56:17. > :56:20.think his leadership of this country into the Iraq war was illegal and a
:56:21. > :56:24.stain on our country's representation.
:56:25. > :56:29.APPLAUSE. But, but, he put together a
:56:30. > :56:34.coalition, let's call it, which ended 18 years of Tory rule and then
:56:35. > :56:37.he got into power and invested in Health Services, education and
:56:38. > :56:41.brought in the minimum wage and Tax Credits. That's what happens when
:56:42. > :56:45.you can build a party that can win elections to defeat the
:56:46. > :56:49.Conservatives. What I find most appalling now, looking across at the
:56:50. > :56:53.Labour Leadership that Chris is not a part of is, if you say you are on
:56:54. > :56:57.the side of the poor and the NHS and the homeless and refugees and those
:56:58. > :57:01.struggling to get by and you deliberately make yourself the most
:57:02. > :57:03.unelectable opposition in British history, you let all of those people
:57:04. > :57:13.down. Thank you, Tim.
:57:14. > :57:17.Mariana? I almost have to stop us but just very briefly. In 2015 when
:57:18. > :57:22.Labour lost the election, Tony Blair said we lost because we did not
:57:23. > :57:26.embrace the wealth creators, that's why the people on the left are
:57:27. > :57:30.homeless. We need a theory of where wealth comes from. It's collectively
:57:31. > :57:33.produced from the public sector workers, private actors, of course,
:57:34. > :57:36.and they really need to be focussing today on these opportunities we have
:57:37. > :57:41.been talking about which are lacking but we need a new understanding of
:57:42. > :57:44.wealth creation as opposed to just focussing on the distribution of
:57:45. > :57:47.wealth through some sort of tax scheme. We have to have a collective
:57:48. > :57:50.understanding of where wealth comes from and Tony Blair did not provide
:57:51. > :57:52.that. That's why there's many homeless people.
:57:53. > :58:00.Thank you very much. APPLAUSE.
:58:01. > :58:06.I'm really sorry to those who have hands up and want to speak in
:58:07. > :58:11.particular, it's like this every week, I can't bring 150 people in
:58:12. > :58:15.and five panelists but I do my best. Time is up. We are in Wakefield next
:58:16. > :58:18.week. Alan Johnson is going to be with us for Labour, Ruth Davidson,
:58:19. > :58:22.the Scottish leader of the Tories for the Tory party, the week after
:58:23. > :58:27.that we are in Maidenhead. So come to Wakefield, come to Maidenhead, go
:58:28. > :58:32.to the website to apply. There is the number. If you are listening on
:58:33. > :58:37.Radio 5 Live, this debate carries on on Question Time extra time. Thanks
:58:38. > :58:40.to the panel and all of you who came to what we are calling South London,
:58:41. > :58:49.Tooting in fact, thank you all indeed. No, not Tooting you say. We
:58:50. > :58:56.are in Tooting. What? Earlsfield. Wandsworth. Have your own way! Thank
:58:57. > :58:57.you all for coming. Until next Thursday from Question Time, good
:58:58. > :59:00.night.