0:00:02 > 0:00:05Welcome to Question Time, which tonight comes from Maidenhead.
0:00:09 > 0:00:12And with us here tonight,
0:00:12 > 0:00:16the Conservative chair of the health select committee, Sarah Wollaston.
0:00:16 > 0:00:20Labour's Shadow Justice Secretary, Richard Burgon.
0:00:20 > 0:00:23The former leader of Ukip who stepped down last week
0:00:23 > 0:00:25and is now available
0:00:25 > 0:00:28for any ambassadorial post he might be offered, Nigel Farage.
0:00:28 > 0:00:32The novelist and New Statesman columnist, Will Self.
0:00:32 > 0:00:34And the former Tory MP
0:00:34 > 0:00:37who left British politics to live in New York, Louise Mensch.
0:00:50 > 0:00:51And as always,
0:00:51 > 0:00:53you don't need to feel left out if you're watching this at home.
0:00:53 > 0:00:56You can join the debate - Facebook, Twitter,
0:00:56 > 0:00:57or you can text us on:
0:01:00 > 0:01:04So, let's get started with this question from Lewis Terry, please.
0:01:04 > 0:01:05Lewis Terry.
0:01:05 > 0:01:07Is Donald Trump a worthy recipient
0:01:07 > 0:01:10of Time magazine's Person of the Year?
0:01:10 > 0:01:11Right, Time magazine, every year,
0:01:11 > 0:01:13makes somebody the Person of the Year,
0:01:13 > 0:01:16the person who's had the greatest influence, for better or worse.
0:01:16 > 0:01:18Is he a worthy recipient?
0:01:18 > 0:01:21- Nigel Farage?- Oh, yes.
0:01:21 > 0:01:22LAUGHTER
0:01:22 > 0:01:25Oh, yeah. I mean...
0:01:25 > 0:01:29The whole point of the prize is whether Time magazine
0:01:29 > 0:01:31think you're a force for good or a force for bad,
0:01:31 > 0:01:33and there aren't many shades of grey
0:01:33 > 0:01:36in terms of the way people look at Donald Trump.
0:01:36 > 0:01:38Either way, he's made the most dramatic impact
0:01:38 > 0:01:40on politics this year.
0:01:40 > 0:01:42Everybody thought it was literally impossible
0:01:42 > 0:01:45for him even to win the nomination, to get through the primaries.
0:01:45 > 0:01:46He did.
0:01:46 > 0:01:48And the day before the election,
0:01:48 > 0:01:52you know, the New York Times said there was a 97% probability
0:01:52 > 0:01:54that Hillary Clinton would win.
0:01:54 > 0:01:56He stunned everybody.
0:01:56 > 0:01:59He's taking over as president on 20th January.
0:01:59 > 0:02:02And not only do I think he's a worthy recipient
0:02:02 > 0:02:05of Time magazine's Person of the Year.
0:02:05 > 0:02:07I think he will also, by this time next year,
0:02:07 > 0:02:08surprise all of you
0:02:08 > 0:02:12by just how popular and good a president he's going to be.
0:02:12 > 0:02:14OK.
0:02:16 > 0:02:17It is...
0:02:17 > 0:02:22- It is influence, not a good influence or a bad influence.- Yes.
0:02:22 > 0:02:26- Hitler and Stalin were both chosen as...- Yes.
0:02:26 > 0:02:28- And Churchill won.- Yes.
0:02:28 > 0:02:31Yeah, no, no, but, I mean, he's been...
0:02:31 > 0:02:33- You know, it is an astonishing thing...- OK.
0:02:33 > 0:02:35- ..that this man has become president.- Will Self?
0:02:35 > 0:02:38I always think it's a bit of a paradox that Nigel Farage
0:02:38 > 0:02:42subscribes to the great man of history view, really,
0:02:42 > 0:02:47given that he doesn't quite shape up to that sort of stature himself.
0:02:47 > 0:02:49And while I think that Trump, certainly,
0:02:49 > 0:02:55is a personification of major changes in geopolitics,
0:02:55 > 0:02:57I'm not so sure that it's the man himself
0:02:57 > 0:03:00that's truly significant.
0:03:00 > 0:03:02It's more what he symbolises.
0:03:02 > 0:03:03And...
0:03:03 > 0:03:05And in terms of what he symbolises,
0:03:05 > 0:03:07has he had the greatest influence on the events of the year?
0:03:07 > 0:03:09Well, yes, undoubtedly,
0:03:09 > 0:03:12but, I mean, as I say, it's what he symbolises.
0:03:12 > 0:03:13As with Brexit,
0:03:13 > 0:03:16it was a case that this was...
0:03:16 > 0:03:19a political eventuality people didn't expect,
0:03:19 > 0:03:23but that's because we've moved beyond the frame of politics
0:03:23 > 0:03:25as it's been understood for a long time.
0:03:25 > 0:03:28And Trump rode that wave.
0:03:28 > 0:03:32To some extent, he kind of created it as well, that's true.
0:03:32 > 0:03:35But he... You know, Trump?
0:03:35 > 0:03:36Nigel?
0:03:36 > 0:03:39This is not Churchill, Hitler and Stalin.
0:03:39 > 0:03:42- Thank God, in the case of the two... - Is that good or bad?
0:03:42 > 0:03:46In the case of the two latter ones, undoubtedly a good thing, yeah.
0:03:46 > 0:03:49So I think that that's kind of weird.
0:03:49 > 0:03:51Step back from it a minute, people.
0:03:51 > 0:03:54These are not great statesman or people.
0:03:54 > 0:03:56What are they?
0:03:56 > 0:03:58They're grubby little opportunists
0:03:58 > 0:04:00who are riding the coat-tails of history.
0:04:00 > 0:04:02CHEERING
0:04:10 > 0:04:12..Deeply principled.
0:04:12 > 0:04:15Louise Mensch?
0:04:15 > 0:04:18I cannot believe that I am going to open this show by doing this
0:04:18 > 0:04:22after so many years of vociferously opposing Nigel Farage,
0:04:22 > 0:04:24but I have to say
0:04:24 > 0:04:26that he is being a bit too modest here,
0:04:26 > 0:04:31because he was one of the nominees for Time's Person of the Year,
0:04:31 > 0:04:33and it was given to Donald Trump,
0:04:33 > 0:04:35and he very generously didn't mention that
0:04:35 > 0:04:36when he was commending Trump.
0:04:36 > 0:04:38I do think it has to be Trump,
0:04:38 > 0:04:42because nobody else has provided such an earthquake
0:04:42 > 0:04:44as he has done in our politics.
0:04:44 > 0:04:47And he is, after all, a consummate showman.
0:04:47 > 0:04:50And the line I like, living in America and watching this unfold...
0:04:50 > 0:04:53Hillary Clinton had an enormous victory in the popular vote,
0:04:53 > 0:04:55but you can't cry about that,
0:04:55 > 0:04:57you can't change the rules of the game
0:04:57 > 0:04:59after it has been played.
0:04:59 > 0:05:02Donald Trump won the electoral college, that is it.
0:05:02 > 0:05:04However, the favourite comment I had from somebody
0:05:04 > 0:05:06was that they said that
0:05:06 > 0:05:09all the journalists took Donald Trump literally
0:05:09 > 0:05:11with what he said, but not seriously,
0:05:11 > 0:05:15whereas the voters took him seriously, but not literally.
0:05:15 > 0:05:17They didn't care if this policy or that policy
0:05:17 > 0:05:20was contradictory or whatever, they didn't care about that.
0:05:20 > 0:05:22What they cared for was that
0:05:22 > 0:05:24he stood for anti-political correctness.
0:05:24 > 0:05:29They were so tired of being trodden on and sat on by the establishment
0:05:29 > 0:05:30and not listened to
0:05:30 > 0:05:32that they said, "Let's give the showman a chance,"
0:05:32 > 0:05:34and that's what's happened.
0:05:34 > 0:05:36And with... I will say that with one exception,
0:05:36 > 0:05:37I think that Donald Trump
0:05:37 > 0:05:42is appointing some very, very good people to his Cabinet.
0:05:42 > 0:05:46The name may be Mad Dog Mattis, but this guy is a boss
0:05:46 > 0:05:50and I am really encouraged by the shape of his Cabinet so far.
0:05:50 > 0:05:51Any views from our audience?
0:05:51 > 0:05:55Yes, the woman there in the fourth row on the right. Yes.
0:05:55 > 0:06:00Hasn't Donald Trump legitimised locker room talk about women
0:06:00 > 0:06:03on an absolutely unacceptable level?
0:06:03 > 0:06:07He's also legitimised now saying one thing in politics
0:06:07 > 0:06:08as long as it gets a vote,
0:06:08 > 0:06:11and then doing something completely different.
0:06:11 > 0:06:13So it's all right to say all of these things
0:06:13 > 0:06:14if you're a politician.
0:06:14 > 0:06:16Once you get elected, you can do whatever you want.
0:06:16 > 0:06:19That's what he's legitimised.
0:06:19 > 0:06:23Richard... Richard Burgon, what do you think of that?
0:06:23 > 0:06:24Well, I was disappointed
0:06:24 > 0:06:28when Donald Trump got given this award,
0:06:28 > 0:06:32not least because of some of the things that he has said about women,
0:06:32 > 0:06:35absolutely outrageous, misogynistic things,
0:06:35 > 0:06:39not least because of some of the things he said about immigrants
0:06:39 > 0:06:41and people of ethnic minority background.
0:06:41 > 0:06:44He said, didn't he, that not one single extra Muslim
0:06:44 > 0:06:47should be allowed in the United States?
0:06:47 > 0:06:50But ultimately, I think the thing about Donald Trump is this.
0:06:50 > 0:06:55He's raised people's hope through a fake anti-elitist approach.
0:06:55 > 0:06:59I believe, unlike Nigel, that he will disappoint.
0:06:59 > 0:07:01He railed against the bankers,
0:07:01 > 0:07:04he railed against the current economic way of doing things,
0:07:04 > 0:07:07but then appoints somebody from Goldman Sachs
0:07:07 > 0:07:09into a top position.
0:07:09 > 0:07:12So I don't think it's a welcome thing,
0:07:12 > 0:07:17and I am surprised to see Nigel trumpeting Trump so much.
0:07:17 > 0:07:18He's trumpeted him so much,
0:07:18 > 0:07:21he's now in a situation where he has to decide his own future
0:07:21 > 0:07:25whether to be a Tory Lord or Trump's butler.
0:07:25 > 0:07:28Um... Well...
0:07:28 > 0:07:29APPLAUSE
0:07:32 > 0:07:35- Is that the choice you face? - No, I don't think it is.
0:07:35 > 0:07:38No. I mean, the thing is, I do know Trump,
0:07:38 > 0:07:41I did support Trump in the campaign, I spoke with him on a platform.
0:07:41 > 0:07:43I completely accept, you know,
0:07:43 > 0:07:45that he says things that shock everybody.
0:07:45 > 0:07:47But he also apologises, which is interesting.
0:07:47 > 0:07:49Very few people in politics ever apologise.
0:07:49 > 0:07:52He rode back on that Muslim comment in quite a big way.
0:07:52 > 0:07:54He apologised for locker room talk.
0:07:54 > 0:07:57I agree with you. It was unacceptable.
0:07:57 > 0:08:00But he has shown he's able to say, "I'm sorry. I went too far."
0:08:00 > 0:08:04As far as our relationship with him is concerned,
0:08:04 > 0:08:06- just remember this...- Our or your?
0:08:06 > 0:08:09- Our relationship.- As a country? - As a country.- Right, yeah.
0:08:09 > 0:08:13This is a strong Anglophile president of the USA.
0:08:13 > 0:08:16He likes this country, he admires this country,
0:08:16 > 0:08:18he wants us to get back to having...
0:08:18 > 0:08:21well, not just a special relationship, an even better one,
0:08:21 > 0:08:23starting with a free trade deal,
0:08:23 > 0:08:26and I think this government, having been so rude about him...
0:08:26 > 0:08:29Virtually every Cabinet member was rude about him during the campaign.
0:08:29 > 0:08:31I think they need to eat some humble pie,
0:08:31 > 0:08:33go and see him as quickly as they can,
0:08:33 > 0:08:35and let's get cracking with a new relationship.
0:08:35 > 0:08:37He also likes Russia quite a lot.
0:08:37 > 0:08:39- Well, it's interesting... - And Putin's politics.
0:08:39 > 0:08:41He doesn't want to go to war with Russia.
0:08:41 > 0:08:44And it's very interesting that we have Hillary,
0:08:44 > 0:08:46we have the European Union,
0:08:46 > 0:08:48we have the political class in this country,
0:08:48 > 0:08:51all want Putin to be the enemy.
0:08:51 > 0:08:53Very keen to go on provoking Putin.
0:08:53 > 0:08:56I wouldn't want to live in Putin's Russia any more than you would,
0:08:56 > 0:08:58but I do think Trump's idea,
0:08:58 > 0:09:00he'll get on a plane - well, his plane, of course -
0:09:00 > 0:09:04and he will go to Moscow and sit down and talk with people.
0:09:04 > 0:09:08That is a much better way to deal with international affairs
0:09:08 > 0:09:10than to provoke Russia
0:09:10 > 0:09:13by trying to get the Ukraine to join the EU...
0:09:13 > 0:09:15WOMAN SHOUTS OUT OK, all right, all right.
0:09:15 > 0:09:17I think we've made some very bad mistakes...
0:09:17 > 0:09:21Nigel, thank you very much. Sarah Wollaston, I want to bring you in.
0:09:21 > 0:09:24Nigel just said almost every politician in this country
0:09:24 > 0:09:25made the great mistake of insulting him.
0:09:25 > 0:09:27Would you agree with that?
0:09:27 > 0:09:30I was one of the people that felt that if you are going to exclude
0:09:30 > 0:09:32all Muslims from this country from the States,
0:09:32 > 0:09:34why should he be allowed a free pass here?
0:09:34 > 0:09:35And I'm glad he apologised for that.
0:09:35 > 0:09:37Did he apologise for stereotyping
0:09:37 > 0:09:40all Mexicans as rapists, for example?
0:09:40 > 0:09:43I think some of his divisive, nasty politics,
0:09:43 > 0:09:45it's really depressing.
0:09:45 > 0:09:47And isn't it terrible that we're starting from such a low baseline
0:09:47 > 0:09:49that what we're hoping for
0:09:49 > 0:09:52is that he doesn't carry out any of his promises?
0:09:52 > 0:09:54OK, and you, sir.
0:09:54 > 0:09:56Yes.
0:09:56 > 0:09:58Just bringing it back to the locker room talk
0:09:58 > 0:09:59and everything like that.
0:09:59 > 0:10:02Yes, Trump has said one thing and he's done another.
0:10:02 > 0:10:04Politicians have been doing this for hundreds of years.
0:10:04 > 0:10:06They always will. The difference with Trump
0:10:06 > 0:10:08is that he's honest about it and, like Nigel just said,
0:10:08 > 0:10:10he apologises when he gets it wrong.
0:10:10 > 0:10:12OK. And you, sir, and then we're going to go on,
0:10:12 > 0:10:14because we can't...
0:10:14 > 0:10:16Yes. Yes. You, sir?
0:10:16 > 0:10:20Don't the extreme results and characters that we've seen this year
0:10:20 > 0:10:23reflect the lack of ability of mainstream politics
0:10:23 > 0:10:26to provide a moderate response to genuine concerns of many people?
0:10:26 > 0:10:28Will Self, do you agree with that?
0:10:28 > 0:10:31I think things are changing very, very fundamentally
0:10:31 > 0:10:33and, yes, I think that in a way,
0:10:33 > 0:10:35our politics hasn't been responsive enough
0:10:35 > 0:10:37to the popular will in the past.
0:10:37 > 0:10:38There's no question about that.
0:10:38 > 0:10:42But whether the solution to that is to start electing people
0:10:42 > 0:10:44who have the views that Trump has,
0:10:44 > 0:10:46I'm not quite so sure that that's the case.
0:10:46 > 0:10:47And you, in the front.
0:10:47 > 0:10:50I personally feel that everyone in the world, now,
0:10:50 > 0:10:52is getting so disillusioned by what's going on.
0:10:52 > 0:10:54Everyone needs some sort of change,
0:10:54 > 0:10:57and I think people like Trump and yourself and all that
0:10:57 > 0:10:59have stirred it up.
0:10:59 > 0:11:00That's the wrong word to use.
0:11:00 > 0:11:04Because everyone is so confused about what's going on in the world,
0:11:04 > 0:11:08with Brexit and what's happening in China and Japan
0:11:08 > 0:11:09and all those sort of places,
0:11:09 > 0:11:11and I just think we need to have someone
0:11:11 > 0:11:16that's there to, sort of, kind of, be a central point,
0:11:16 > 0:11:18to try and...even out.
0:11:18 > 0:11:20OK. Yes, Sarah?
0:11:20 > 0:11:21There are other voices.
0:11:21 > 0:11:23This year, we heard someone say
0:11:23 > 0:11:25that we have far more in common with each other
0:11:25 > 0:11:28than that which divides us, and that person was Jo Cox,
0:11:28 > 0:11:31and frankly, she should have been Person Of The Year.
0:11:31 > 0:11:33APPLAUSE
0:11:35 > 0:11:37OK, well...
0:11:37 > 0:11:42Ten minutes on Trump is enough, I think, for tonight.
0:11:42 > 0:11:46Just a word - we're going to be back after Christmas with Question Time
0:11:46 > 0:11:48in Solihull and Peterborough, or So-li-hull, if you prefer.
0:11:48 > 0:11:50If you'd like to join the audience, the address is there.
0:11:50 > 0:11:53I'll give it again at the end, make a note if you want it.
0:11:53 > 0:11:56Let's go on to the other topic of the year. Oscar Huxley?
0:11:56 > 0:11:58Do you think a deal for Brexit
0:11:58 > 0:12:01could realistically be achieved in two years?
0:12:01 > 0:12:03Can the deal be achieved in two years,
0:12:03 > 0:12:06which is what the leaders of the negotiations in Europe
0:12:06 > 0:12:08are saying it has to be?
0:12:08 > 0:12:09Is it too complicated?
0:12:09 > 0:12:11Richard Burgon.
0:12:11 > 0:12:14Well, in order to get a deal in the first place,
0:12:14 > 0:12:16what we need is a plan,
0:12:16 > 0:12:20and that's why I was so pleased that yesterday, in Parliament,
0:12:20 > 0:12:24Labour MPs forced the agenda so that, at long last,
0:12:24 > 0:12:30Theresa May has agreed to put a plan before the British people,
0:12:30 > 0:12:32and that's really, really important.
0:12:32 > 0:12:34It's taken a long time,
0:12:34 > 0:12:38but they're going to publish a plan before 31 March.
0:12:38 > 0:12:39Of course, it's complicated.
0:12:39 > 0:12:43A binary choice was given in the EU referendum.
0:12:43 > 0:12:4848% of people, of course, voted to remain.
0:12:48 > 0:12:5152% voted to leave. But what we need now is a plan.
0:12:51 > 0:12:53Britain should leave the European Union,
0:12:53 > 0:12:56because Britain voted to leave the European Union.
0:12:56 > 0:13:00Labour will vote to trigger Article 50.
0:13:00 > 0:13:03We will hold the government to account, not to ransom.
0:13:03 > 0:13:06But what we need to do is stop talking,
0:13:06 > 0:13:09like the Liberal Democrats are, about the 48%,
0:13:09 > 0:13:12stop talking, like Ukip are, about the 52%,
0:13:12 > 0:13:14and let's bring people together.
0:13:14 > 0:13:18Let's talk about the 100% and move forward as a country
0:13:18 > 0:13:19for a post-Brexit Britain
0:13:19 > 0:13:22that works in the interests of everyone in the country.
0:13:22 > 0:13:25APPLAUSE
0:13:29 > 0:13:33That's fine words, but can you get that by October 2018,
0:13:33 > 0:13:35in your view, in a way that you want,
0:13:35 > 0:13:38when the House of Commons may well be divided over what is negotiated?
0:13:38 > 0:13:41Well, it is possible, but nothing in politics,
0:13:41 > 0:13:44and nothing in economics, is certain.
0:13:44 > 0:13:48Of course it's going to be complex, but what we need is a situation
0:13:48 > 0:13:52where a blank cheque isn't given to Theresa May,
0:13:52 > 0:13:55an unelected Prime Minister, to do what she wishes.
0:13:55 > 0:13:58People have voted by majority to leave the European Union,
0:13:58 > 0:14:00therefore, we need to leave the European Union.
0:14:00 > 0:14:03But I think voices from all sides of the House of Commons,
0:14:03 > 0:14:05and voices from right across the country,
0:14:05 > 0:14:09both from the 48% and the 52%, need to be heard
0:14:09 > 0:14:10if we're going to get any kind of deal
0:14:10 > 0:14:12that keeps this country together.
0:14:12 > 0:14:14Sarah Wollaston, what's your view of the politics of this
0:14:14 > 0:14:17and whether it'll all be achieved within the two years?
0:14:17 > 0:14:19It's immensely complex. I think it will take two years.
0:14:19 > 0:14:22But there are things that we need to get on with straightaway.
0:14:22 > 0:14:25We need to get on with sorting out status of the EU nationals
0:14:25 > 0:14:29living in the UK already and British nationals living in Europe,
0:14:29 > 0:14:31and I hope that that will be the first priority.
0:14:31 > 0:14:34But also, we've got to keep the tone friendly.
0:14:34 > 0:14:36I think that having a belligerent tone
0:14:36 > 0:14:39against our European partners isn't helpful
0:14:39 > 0:14:42and we need to keep the tone right and positive,
0:14:42 > 0:14:44because it's in all of our interests
0:14:44 > 0:14:45for this to be a friendly separation.
0:14:45 > 0:14:47We want to be good neighbours.
0:14:47 > 0:14:50But do you think that Conservative and Labour will come together
0:14:50 > 0:14:51to agree what's on offer?
0:14:51 > 0:14:53- Or is there...? - Well, I'm an optimist.
0:14:53 > 0:14:56Two years from now, are we going to be divided on it?
0:14:56 > 0:14:57I'm an optimist, but people will see,
0:14:57 > 0:15:00on both sides of the Channel and across political parties,
0:15:00 > 0:15:03that this is too serious for it to become a divisive issue,
0:15:03 > 0:15:05and we must work together in the national interest.
0:15:05 > 0:15:07All right. Well, Nigel Farage,
0:15:07 > 0:15:09do things that are too serious not become divisive?
0:15:09 > 0:15:12I mean, six months have nearly gone by since the referendum.
0:15:12 > 0:15:14We've wasted all this time already.
0:15:14 > 0:15:17Had the Prime Minister shown real leadership,
0:15:17 > 0:15:20triggered Article 50, we wouldn't be going through court cases.
0:15:20 > 0:15:22We'd actually be getting on with the process
0:15:22 > 0:15:25and my concern is that we trigger Article 50 in March -
0:15:25 > 0:15:28that's what the House of Commons agreed to do -
0:15:28 > 0:15:31and if we spend two years negotiating this,
0:15:31 > 0:15:34that'll be another net £20 billion we've paid away.
0:15:34 > 0:15:36It'll be another, at current rates,
0:15:36 > 0:15:41at least another 500,000 people who come to settle in this country, net.
0:15:41 > 0:15:44But, more crucially, it'll be lost opportunities.
0:15:44 > 0:15:45I talked about America earlier.
0:15:45 > 0:15:48There are 24 countries, since we left the EU,
0:15:48 > 0:15:50that have come to us and said,
0:15:50 > 0:15:52"We want to have a trade deal with the United Kingdom."
0:15:52 > 0:15:54It's very difficult for us to do any of that
0:15:54 > 0:15:56whilst we are going through this process.
0:15:56 > 0:15:58So, I would say this - if we wanted to,
0:15:58 > 0:16:00we could leave in two weeks.
0:16:00 > 0:16:01If we wanted to.
0:16:01 > 0:16:04We could just say, "That's it, we're leaving,
0:16:04 > 0:16:06"we'll trade with you on WTO rules."
0:16:06 > 0:16:09The reason it's going to take a long time
0:16:09 > 0:16:12is because my impression is that this government
0:16:12 > 0:16:18and most people in Parliament want us to stay in the single market,
0:16:18 > 0:16:22and I think we're going to finish up in the spring of '19, effectively,
0:16:22 > 0:16:24with a Norwegian-type deal,
0:16:24 > 0:16:27which is not what the people of this country voted for.
0:16:27 > 0:16:30But that, I think, is where it's going to go.
0:16:30 > 0:16:32APPLAUSE
0:16:34 > 0:16:36So, Nigel Farage, when you said, as you did,
0:16:36 > 0:16:39that a 52/48 result would be unfinished business...
0:16:39 > 0:16:40I didn't, for me, no.
0:16:40 > 0:16:42I said, within the Conservative party,
0:16:42 > 0:16:45it would be unfinished business. What was clear...
0:16:45 > 0:16:47Sorry, no. My question is...
0:16:47 > 0:16:50Maybe you did or didn't say that, but the question is whether,
0:16:50 > 0:16:52if that's so, what you're saying now,
0:16:52 > 0:16:54which is that it's going to be a Norwegian-style deal,
0:16:54 > 0:16:56which is not what we wanted, what's going to happen then?
0:16:56 > 0:17:00Well, I think that if we don't get our fishing waters back,
0:17:00 > 0:17:01we don't get our passports back,
0:17:01 > 0:17:04we don't get away from the European Court Of Justice,
0:17:04 > 0:17:08having the ability to rule on our businesses, our industries,
0:17:08 > 0:17:11and if we don't get the ability to make our own trade deals,
0:17:11 > 0:17:13then I think the 2020 general election
0:17:13 > 0:17:18could well be a very big replay of this referendum, because I think...
0:17:18 > 0:17:21The one thing I do know - and, yes, of course,
0:17:21 > 0:17:24there were all sorts of things said on both sides of the argument,
0:17:24 > 0:17:26the temperature got raised to a level
0:17:26 > 0:17:28we've never seen in this country -
0:17:28 > 0:17:31what I do know is that the 17.5 million people
0:17:31 > 0:17:34that voted for it, despite being told we'd fall off a cliff
0:17:34 > 0:17:36and terrible things would happen to us,
0:17:36 > 0:17:38they voted for it because they meant it
0:17:38 > 0:17:42and I think they are not going to change their mind on this.
0:17:42 > 0:17:47So I hope that the local MP here gives us some real leadership,
0:17:47 > 0:17:49because frankly, in the first few months,
0:17:49 > 0:17:52we've had precious little, and if she tells us, clearly,
0:17:52 > 0:17:54that we're not just leaving the European Union,
0:17:54 > 0:17:56we're leaving the single market,
0:17:56 > 0:17:58because that's what people have voted for,
0:17:58 > 0:18:01I would then be very reassured and the next general election
0:18:01 > 0:18:04would be more or less business as usual.
0:18:04 > 0:18:06But that's not where I think it's going.
0:18:06 > 0:18:08APPLAUSE
0:18:09 > 0:18:12I said we were in Maidenhead, which is, of course,
0:18:12 > 0:18:14Theresa May's constituency. Will Self?
0:18:14 > 0:18:17Yeah, I think Nigel's analysis is probably right, actually.
0:18:17 > 0:18:22The Cabinet is clearly divided, there isn't an agreement
0:18:22 > 0:18:25on whether to go for a hard or soft Brexit.
0:18:25 > 0:18:28I think what people voted for was a variety of things,
0:18:28 > 0:18:30who voted for Brexit.
0:18:30 > 0:18:34They voted because they felt their livelihoods under threat,
0:18:34 > 0:18:35they felt, in some sense,
0:18:35 > 0:18:39that they were losing a kind of control in their communities.
0:18:39 > 0:18:42If they were feeling very, very immiserated,
0:18:42 > 0:18:45they perhaps were being thrust into bigotry
0:18:45 > 0:18:47and looking around at society
0:18:47 > 0:18:51and reacting against our immigrant communities,
0:18:51 > 0:18:54and all of that was pretty unsavoury.
0:18:54 > 0:18:57But I don't think what they actually voted for
0:18:57 > 0:19:02was to suffer the kind of catastrophic...not recession,
0:19:02 > 0:19:05but, I would wager, depression that will occur
0:19:05 > 0:19:08if we go straight to WTO rules.
0:19:08 > 0:19:13You know, why on earth wouldn't the Europeans, for example, Nigel,
0:19:13 > 0:19:16bring back the denomination of Eurobonds from the City
0:19:16 > 0:19:19to Frankfurt or wherever they choose to do it?
0:19:19 > 0:19:22I have to say, you know, I think a lot of the Brexiteers
0:19:22 > 0:19:25are still living in a bit of a weird kind of, you know...
0:19:25 > 0:19:28You hear them saying, "Bring back this, bring back that,
0:19:28 > 0:19:31"bring back the birch, bring back bicycles,
0:19:31 > 0:19:32"bring back spinsters,
0:19:32 > 0:19:36"bring back Two Way Family Forces Favourites."
0:19:36 > 0:19:38What else are you going to bring back?
0:19:38 > 0:19:41Bring back democracy. Bring back democracy.
0:19:41 > 0:19:43Bring back self-government. That's what we voted for.
0:19:43 > 0:19:46That's what we want.
0:19:46 > 0:19:47APPLAUSE
0:19:49 > 0:19:51That's what you say people voted for.
0:19:51 > 0:19:53But actually, Nigel, I think a rerun of...
0:19:53 > 0:19:55A rerun of the issues
0:19:55 > 0:19:59within the context of the political system we're used to
0:19:59 > 0:20:03is far more democratic than a winner-takes-all referendum.
0:20:03 > 0:20:06And all of this kind of talk that the politicians are doing,
0:20:06 > 0:20:10now, because they're desperately worried about their vote,
0:20:10 > 0:20:14is to say, "Oh, no, we'll respect the will of the people."
0:20:14 > 0:20:18The will of those incredibly politically committed people, Nigel,
0:20:18 > 0:20:22who you now have summoned into a great civil society.
0:20:22 > 0:20:24We're all going to be working away, aren't we?
0:20:24 > 0:20:27Well, he says we are going to end up with a solution like Norway,
0:20:27 > 0:20:28and that isn't what people want.
0:20:28 > 0:20:30Yeah, well, I like Norway.
0:20:30 > 0:20:33LAUGHTER OK. Let's just silence, if we can,
0:20:33 > 0:20:35our panel just for a moment - I'll come to you, Louise -
0:20:35 > 0:20:38and hear what do you think here in Maidenhead.
0:20:38 > 0:20:41The woman there - how you voted, I don't know.
0:20:41 > 0:20:44- But what did you want to see happen? - I voted to remain.- Yes.
0:20:44 > 0:20:49But I feel people were misled by politicians,
0:20:49 > 0:20:54saying the 350 million we are paying to Europe will go to the NHS.
0:20:54 > 0:20:58The same politicians changed their mind next day,
0:20:58 > 0:21:01saying, "Oh, no, we haven't got any money now."
0:21:01 > 0:21:05- What do you want to see happen now? - Sorry?
0:21:05 > 0:21:06What do you want to see happen now?
0:21:06 > 0:21:08Well, we have to trade with Europe.
0:21:10 > 0:21:14- We'll still be paying money to Europe, to trade with them.- Why?
0:21:14 > 0:21:16If we want to do business with them.
0:21:16 > 0:21:18All right, let's go to some other people.
0:21:18 > 0:21:22The woman there, in blue, or purple, is it? There.
0:21:22 > 0:21:28Um...I think the Westminster cartel are a bit slow to realise
0:21:28 > 0:21:32that politics are being done differently, now,
0:21:32 > 0:21:35and I think the basic problem that we've got at the moment
0:21:35 > 0:21:39is that we've got a Parliament that doesn't really represent the people.
0:21:39 > 0:21:41And what do you mean by "done differently"?
0:21:41 > 0:21:46Um...I think it's the grassroots that put Trump where he is,
0:21:46 > 0:21:50the grassroots that put Jeremy Corbyn where he is,
0:21:50 > 0:21:53the grassroots that caused Brexit to happen,
0:21:53 > 0:21:57and I think they're still living in a world
0:21:57 > 0:21:59where they haven't realised
0:21:59 > 0:22:02that, with the advent of the internet
0:22:02 > 0:22:04and the ability of people to be able
0:22:04 > 0:22:07to communicate with each other a lot more,
0:22:07 > 0:22:10that politics is being done differently.
0:22:10 > 0:22:13All right. Louise Mensch, I'll come to you. Louise Mensch.
0:22:13 > 0:22:16I think there's a lot to what that lady just said, actually.
0:22:16 > 0:22:19One of the things that annoys me, watching from afar,
0:22:19 > 0:22:21is the sort of Mystic Meg that goes on -
0:22:21 > 0:22:23"Well, we voted for this and we voted for that,
0:22:23 > 0:22:25"people really think this and they really think that."
0:22:25 > 0:22:27I think the only thing you can take from it
0:22:27 > 0:22:29is the question that was on the ballot paper.
0:22:29 > 0:22:31And what went on the ballot paper was,
0:22:31 > 0:22:34"Should we leave the European Union?"
0:22:34 > 0:22:37And the answer was yes. Beyond that, there was no detail.
0:22:37 > 0:22:38It wasn't on the ballot paper.
0:22:38 > 0:22:40If people had required all the detail in advance,
0:22:40 > 0:22:42presumably, they would have voted no.
0:22:42 > 0:22:45So somebody has to do those negotiations,
0:22:45 > 0:22:46and I don't agree with Nigel.
0:22:46 > 0:22:50I think that here, in Maidenhead, Theresa will go into Europe
0:22:50 > 0:22:52and she will swing her handbag pretty hard.
0:22:52 > 0:22:54There was a study out recently
0:22:54 > 0:22:56that said optimistic women live longer,
0:22:56 > 0:22:59so that's good for me, because I'm very optimistic!
0:22:59 > 0:23:02And I actually believe that we hold all the cards,
0:23:02 > 0:23:03and I'm sick and tired
0:23:03 > 0:23:06of being...Britain being pushed around when there is no need.
0:23:06 > 0:23:10There is a deficit, a trade deficit, from the EU to us.
0:23:10 > 0:23:14Germany, the breadbasket of the EU, sells most of its cars in Britain.
0:23:14 > 0:23:17They desperately need to trade with us.
0:23:17 > 0:23:19So all I think we need is a bit of firmness,
0:23:19 > 0:23:22a bit of friendliness, a bit of politeness -
0:23:22 > 0:23:24we're leading the EU, we're not leaving Europe -
0:23:24 > 0:23:26and we should be able to get a good deal
0:23:26 > 0:23:27and get a good deal quickly.
0:23:27 > 0:23:30And as for Theresa delaying and wasting time,
0:23:30 > 0:23:32I don't think that's what's happening at all.
0:23:32 > 0:23:34What she's doing is she's stacking her hand,
0:23:34 > 0:23:35like a good negotiator.
0:23:35 > 0:23:38She went to India and she did some trade deals in advance.
0:23:38 > 0:23:41It's true that we can't sign them until we leave the EU,
0:23:41 > 0:23:42but we can line them up.
0:23:42 > 0:23:44And that is what she's doing,
0:23:44 > 0:23:46and I think she's playing it very well, very cleverly.
0:23:46 > 0:23:49APPLAUSE
0:23:51 > 0:23:54She went to India and did a trade deal,
0:23:54 > 0:23:59but she had to agree for the free movement of workforce,
0:23:59 > 0:24:00around the world.
0:24:00 > 0:24:03That is a lot of Mickey Mouse crap.
0:24:03 > 0:24:06Sorry! It really is,
0:24:06 > 0:24:11because nobody is going to give you something totally...
0:24:11 > 0:24:12"Come in", like that.
0:24:12 > 0:24:16They're going to want to trade and they want to trade with their people
0:24:16 > 0:24:18and they want to trade with their technology.
0:24:18 > 0:24:21It's not as straightforward as anyone makes out.
0:24:21 > 0:24:24If you go with the referendum, in the North,
0:24:24 > 0:24:29I can take you to towns where the real reason was immigration.
0:24:29 > 0:24:32Without a shadow of a doubt.
0:24:32 > 0:24:35And everybody believed that we were going to not have
0:24:35 > 0:24:37the free movement of people,
0:24:37 > 0:24:39we weren't going to have immigration.
0:24:39 > 0:24:42But if we don't have immigration in the South,
0:24:42 > 0:24:46who's going to wipe my backside when I go into a nursing home?
0:24:46 > 0:24:49Because I can tell you, categorically,
0:24:49 > 0:24:52there is not one, if you like, English national
0:24:52 > 0:24:55working in most of our nursing homes.
0:24:55 > 0:24:58They're Filipinos, they're from Asia...
0:24:58 > 0:25:01- I very much doubt that. - That's not quite correct.
0:25:01 > 0:25:04Sorry - so, you are Theresa May. What would you do?
0:25:04 > 0:25:06If I was Theresa May,
0:25:06 > 0:25:08I'd go back to the country, because I tell you...
0:25:08 > 0:25:12Well, that is the whole point. You don't accept the result.
0:25:12 > 0:25:15You do not accept the result of the referendum and,
0:25:15 > 0:25:17if I may say so, there is a complete difference
0:25:17 > 0:25:19between open, free movement
0:25:19 > 0:25:22and having a fair, free immigration policy.
0:25:22 > 0:25:25Brexit, I was for Brexit. It's not anti-immigration.
0:25:25 > 0:25:27It's saying that somebody from Belgium shouldn't have
0:25:27 > 0:25:30special privileges over somebody from Bangladesh.
0:25:30 > 0:25:31She wants to trade, that's a good thing.
0:25:31 > 0:25:33Hold on. Let's pick up the point you made.
0:25:33 > 0:25:35APPLAUSE
0:25:35 > 0:25:39Richard Burgon, do you think she should have an election
0:25:39 > 0:25:40to clear the air?
0:25:40 > 0:25:44- You do. What do you think? - Explain all the facts to the country
0:25:44 > 0:25:45and actually explain it.
0:25:45 > 0:25:49Because we don't know. I could have changed my mind.
0:25:49 > 0:25:52I could have really changed my mind if I thought it was right,
0:25:52 > 0:25:56but I voted Remain, because I didn't really know what I was going into.
0:25:56 > 0:25:57OK. Richard Burgon.
0:25:57 > 0:26:00All this talk of will Theresa May hold an election...
0:26:00 > 0:26:03- He wants one.- All this talk of whether Theresa May
0:26:03 > 0:26:06will or will not hold an election before 2020 -
0:26:06 > 0:26:09if she can't govern, if she's that weak,
0:26:09 > 0:26:11then she'll have to hold an election,
0:26:11 > 0:26:12so we'll see what happens.
0:26:12 > 0:26:16But I do want to pick up the point that the lady over there made
0:26:16 > 0:26:17about politics been done differently,
0:26:17 > 0:26:19grassroots politics.
0:26:19 > 0:26:21She made a really important point.
0:26:21 > 0:26:22When you talked about
0:26:22 > 0:26:25the, surprising to many, election of Trump,
0:26:25 > 0:26:26when you talked about the,
0:26:26 > 0:26:29surprising to the Conservative government, Brexit vote,
0:26:29 > 0:26:33and the, surprising to political figures from past and present,
0:26:33 > 0:26:37election of Jeremy Corbyn twice as Labour Party leader.
0:26:37 > 0:26:41What we've got now is a questioning of the old way of doing things.
0:26:41 > 0:26:44That's what happened in the United States.
0:26:44 > 0:26:47In essence, that's what happened with the Brexit vote.
0:26:47 > 0:26:50People don't want the status quo to continue,
0:26:50 > 0:26:53but the dangerous thing at this point
0:26:53 > 0:26:56is the fake antiestablishment politics.
0:26:56 > 0:27:00I don't believe that billionaire Donald Trump is antiestablishment.
0:27:00 > 0:27:03I don't think he will deliver for the rust belt communities
0:27:03 > 0:27:04that voted for him in the United States,
0:27:04 > 0:27:08and I don't believe that Ukip now, with a lesser leader,
0:27:08 > 0:27:13will deliver on an antiestablishment basis, either.
0:27:13 > 0:27:17The NHS, by the way, is Britain's proudest peacetime achievement.
0:27:17 > 0:27:19The new leader of Ukip, Paul Nuttall,
0:27:19 > 0:27:20wants to privatise it.
0:27:20 > 0:27:24There's nothing antiestablishment about that. These...
0:27:24 > 0:27:26Is Jeremy Corbyn antiestablishment?
0:27:26 > 0:27:29He is. Labour is the antiestablishment party.
0:27:29 > 0:27:31That's why the media don't like Jeremy Corbyn.
0:27:31 > 0:27:34- LAUGHTER - Because he is antiestablishment.
0:27:34 > 0:27:36That's why the Westminster bubble doesn't like him -
0:27:36 > 0:27:37because he is antiestablishment.
0:27:37 > 0:27:40OK. We've got a lot we want to talk about.
0:27:40 > 0:27:42Does anybody else want to make any points about the way
0:27:42 > 0:27:45that Brexit, post the vote, is being handled from the audience?
0:27:45 > 0:27:46Yes, you, and then we'll go on,
0:27:46 > 0:27:48because we've got lots of other things
0:27:48 > 0:27:50that people want to talk about,
0:27:50 > 0:27:52and we've covered it regularly and at some length.
0:27:52 > 0:27:55- Yes, madam. - I voted Leave, OK?
0:27:55 > 0:27:59It doesn't matter what politician was out there,
0:27:59 > 0:28:03I did not want to be part of the EU any longer.
0:28:03 > 0:28:07I don't like dictatorship. I think we should make our own decisions
0:28:07 > 0:28:10and we should trade with whoever we like
0:28:10 > 0:28:13and allow them to trade with us if we accept them.
0:28:13 > 0:28:16APPLAUSE
0:28:18 > 0:28:21Roy Horne, let's have your question. Roy Horne.
0:28:21 > 0:28:26Is it time to raise basic rate income tax
0:28:26 > 0:28:29to improve the NHS and our public services?
0:28:29 > 0:28:30Sarah Wollaston.
0:28:30 > 0:28:33I certainly need think we need to raise more money for our NHS
0:28:33 > 0:28:35and social care, particularly for social care,
0:28:35 > 0:28:37and I very much hope that next week,
0:28:37 > 0:28:39when we have the local government settlement,
0:28:39 > 0:28:42that we do see a fair settlement for social care,
0:28:42 > 0:28:43because the gentleman in the front row here
0:28:43 > 0:28:47is going to need some care, hopefully, at some point...
0:28:47 > 0:28:48Not hopefully!
0:28:48 > 0:28:49LAUGHTER
0:28:49 > 0:28:51I said that wrong.
0:28:51 > 0:28:53LAUGHTER
0:28:53 > 0:28:55But if the gentleman in the front row does need care,
0:28:55 > 0:28:58I hope it will be available to him, and unfortunately,
0:28:58 > 0:28:59in many parts of the country now,
0:28:59 > 0:29:01we're seeing that social care is in a state of collapse.
0:29:01 > 0:29:04How do you do it without increasing taxation?
0:29:04 > 0:29:07Well, I think that there have been a number of...commissions
0:29:07 > 0:29:08that have looked at this,
0:29:08 > 0:29:10and I think there are some very interesting proposals
0:29:10 > 0:29:12in something called the Barker Commission.
0:29:12 > 0:29:15She looked, for example, at whether or not
0:29:15 > 0:29:18we could put an extra penny on National Insurance.
0:29:18 > 0:29:20- That is tax, isn't it? - But the time has come...
0:29:20 > 0:29:23Hang on, that's being very, very political.
0:29:23 > 0:29:26Actually, no, can I explain in one way that I think it isn't?
0:29:26 > 0:29:28That is that I think we need to bring in
0:29:28 > 0:29:30some intergenerational fairness, here,
0:29:30 > 0:29:33and I think one of the proposals was that wealthier people over 40
0:29:33 > 0:29:35could contribute more,
0:29:35 > 0:29:39because we're the generation that didn't have to pay university fees,
0:29:39 > 0:29:43that rode the property boom, and I think that now,
0:29:43 > 0:29:47what we're seeing is a shift away from younger people to older people.
0:29:47 > 0:29:50So over 40s would pay more in National Insurance.
0:29:50 > 0:29:53- That was one of them. - What do you want to see happen?
0:29:53 > 0:29:54You're an expert on this.
0:29:54 > 0:29:58I would like to see... Well... I would like to see that we
0:29:58 > 0:30:00actually have a national debate about how we do this.
0:30:00 > 0:30:04I would like to see our NHS and social care remain free at
0:30:04 > 0:30:07the point of use, based on need and not ability to pay.
0:30:07 > 0:30:11But because - and happily - we are living so much longer,
0:30:11 > 0:30:14we have a 31% increase in the number of people who are
0:30:14 > 0:30:17living to 85 and over now, but we need to plan for that.
0:30:17 > 0:30:19I think it's great news that people are living longer.
0:30:19 > 0:30:22I wish people would stop talking about it in gloomy terms,
0:30:22 > 0:30:25but we need to plan for it. It's a success.
0:30:25 > 0:30:29But it means that the scale of the increase on demand is enormous and
0:30:29 > 0:30:32that means we've got to debate how we're going to raise that money.
0:30:32 > 0:30:35And I think it is time now to have a national debate about doing
0:30:35 > 0:30:39that on a fair basis and I think an increase in national insurance
0:30:39 > 0:30:42and various other mechanisms that have been proposed
0:30:42 > 0:30:45by the Barker Commission, and we need to have cross-party consensus.
0:30:45 > 0:30:48But do you want us to get up to the level of spending that other
0:30:48 > 0:30:51European countries have? We're below France, below Germany,
0:30:51 > 0:30:54fewer hospital beds than France, fewer hospital beds than Germany,
0:30:54 > 0:30:58and yet we say that the NHS is the only religion left in Britain.
0:30:58 > 0:31:01But we have to think of the NHS and social care together.
0:31:01 > 0:31:04So if you look at the way the OECD now measure this,
0:31:04 > 0:31:07actually we're only slightly below the European average but we're
0:31:07 > 0:31:10well below what we should be spending on social care and
0:31:10 > 0:31:13- we've got to stop thinking of health and social care as separate...- OK.
0:31:13 > 0:31:16- ..and we need to look at them together.- The woman there.
0:31:16 > 0:31:17APPLAUSE
0:31:20 > 0:31:23I completely agree with your point about health and social care
0:31:23 > 0:31:26being together. That's definitely not what's happening at the moment.
0:31:26 > 0:31:29It's all very well looking to how we're going to invest
0:31:29 > 0:31:34in the future, for when I'm needing care, but my grandma has just
0:31:34 > 0:31:37passed away and she didn't get the care that she paid
0:31:37 > 0:31:42her whole life for, so I want to know what investment we need to see
0:31:42 > 0:31:44immediately to help the most vulnerable people
0:31:44 > 0:31:46in our society at the moment.
0:31:46 > 0:31:49Will Self, time to raise basic tax to pay is the question.
0:31:49 > 0:31:52I don't know about basic tax but, you know, the Gini Coefficient,
0:31:52 > 0:31:54which is how you measure
0:31:54 > 0:31:57the disparity between the poor and the rich,
0:31:57 > 0:32:00has grown wider and wider in this society
0:32:00 > 0:32:04since the 1970s while, since the Thatcher regime of the '80s,
0:32:04 > 0:32:10our overall levels of income and taxation generally have been low
0:32:10 > 0:32:14so, you know, progressive taxation is the sign of a civilised society.
0:32:14 > 0:32:18We should raise the top rate of tax, not the standard rate of tax.
0:32:18 > 0:32:22You don't have to be a mad Corbynista to understand that.
0:32:22 > 0:32:25Trouble is, it's very difficult to do things like this in
0:32:25 > 0:32:30the globalised world which Nigel and his merry band are going to shove
0:32:30 > 0:32:32into the dustbin of history,
0:32:32 > 0:32:35or perhaps throw like a basketball player, because you can't...
0:32:35 > 0:32:38You know, you mess around with taxation rates,
0:32:38 > 0:32:42money sucks its way out of the city.
0:32:42 > 0:32:44You know, national governments have difficulty.
0:32:44 > 0:32:47You asked for a national debate on it.
0:32:47 > 0:32:48You'd be better off asking for
0:32:48 > 0:32:51an international debate on taxation, frankly.
0:32:51 > 0:32:54- Nigel Farage. - It doesn't work like that, Roy.
0:32:54 > 0:32:58Just because you pay tuppence extra on whether it's the low rate
0:32:58 > 0:33:01of tax or ten pence on the top rate of tax,
0:33:01 > 0:33:04does not mean that money will go directly
0:33:04 > 0:33:06to the National Health Service or social care.
0:33:06 > 0:33:09The way it works is the money goes into the middle,
0:33:09 > 0:33:11it comes out and, at the minute,
0:33:11 > 0:33:15we still have a gap of between £70-80 billion every year.
0:33:15 > 0:33:17That's remarkable.
0:33:17 > 0:33:19One of the most uncommented things in British politics
0:33:19 > 0:33:23over the last few years is that in the five years
0:33:23 > 0:33:27of the Conservative/Liberal Democrat Coalition, our national debt -
0:33:27 > 0:33:30that's the thing we've been building up ever since we fought Napoleon -
0:33:30 > 0:33:34our national debt doubled in those five years,
0:33:34 > 0:33:35so are there things we can do?
0:33:35 > 0:33:40Well, we could cut taxes, we could cut corporation taxes and get
0:33:40 > 0:33:42a lot more companies relocating here.
0:33:42 > 0:33:45It sounds today like McDonald's may well be relocating to this country.
0:33:45 > 0:33:51- So things we can do...- Great jobs. Great jobs for everybody.
0:33:51 > 0:33:52Mine's a Big Mac.
0:33:52 > 0:33:55Do you want them paying their corporate taxes in Switzerland,
0:33:55 > 0:33:58in Luxembourg, in Dublin, or in this country?
0:33:58 > 0:34:00The answer is let's get those big firms to pay taxes here.
0:34:00 > 0:34:03That's been the whole policy we've followed for years and
0:34:03 > 0:34:07that's why we've got seriously poor and voted for you, weirdly.
0:34:07 > 0:34:09We haven't done that. We haven't done that.
0:34:09 > 0:34:10APPLAUSE
0:34:10 > 0:34:13We haven't done that.
0:34:13 > 0:34:15No.
0:34:15 > 0:34:19We ceded tax sovereignty and we allowed big corporations to
0:34:19 > 0:34:21pay tax in Ireland or Luxembourg
0:34:21 > 0:34:24and what we ought to be doing is being competitive.
0:34:24 > 0:34:27But honestly, the real answer to the question is that I don't
0:34:27 > 0:34:30think anyone knows how to deal with this.
0:34:30 > 0:34:32You know, Blair, back in '97, thought...
0:34:32 > 0:34:33AUDIENCE MEMBER HECKLES
0:34:33 > 0:34:37..think the unthinkable about pensions, about health provision.
0:34:37 > 0:34:41He ducked it and the truth is we're living longer,
0:34:41 > 0:34:43we're all living healthier lifestyles, I'm told,
0:34:43 > 0:34:48and I don't think anyone really has got a clue how on earth we're
0:34:48 > 0:34:51going to give people pensions and health care 50 years from now.
0:34:51 > 0:34:54Your party, you flirted with the idea of an insurance-based
0:34:54 > 0:34:56system originally and then you went off it, didn't you?
0:34:56 > 0:34:59I looked at what the French are doing and the French were definitely
0:34:59 > 0:35:00getting better bang for their buck
0:35:00 > 0:35:03with their health system so I think, you know,
0:35:03 > 0:35:06there are lots of things about Europe that are wonderful and
0:35:06 > 0:35:09we could perhaps learn from, and maybe if other health systems are
0:35:09 > 0:35:11better than ours in terms of delivery, we should learn from it.
0:35:11 > 0:35:13We'll hear from Louise about the American one.
0:35:13 > 0:35:15I want to hear from the woman at the back there.
0:35:15 > 0:35:18Yes, the woman with spectacles at the very, very back. Yes.
0:35:18 > 0:35:23I just wanted to take Nigel Farage up on his corporation tax point.
0:35:23 > 0:35:27- Yeah.- I run a business, I would happily pay more corporation tax
0:35:27 > 0:35:30and I think the rich should be taxed more.
0:35:30 > 0:35:33It's completely bonkers that you want to make it easier for
0:35:33 > 0:35:35people to get rich instead of harder.
0:35:35 > 0:35:38I don't like these big companies doing business in this country
0:35:38 > 0:35:41but not paying their taxes in this country because they've been lured
0:35:41 > 0:35:44away to other parts of Europe. I want them to pay here.
0:35:44 > 0:35:46But we don't want those people in our country.
0:35:46 > 0:35:48If people are going to leave the country because they're not
0:35:48 > 0:35:50going to pay our taxes, let them go.
0:35:50 > 0:35:53- Well, we are living... - They're not civilised.
0:35:53 > 0:35:54We are living in this...
0:35:54 > 0:35:58Will said we're living in this global world, we have to compete.
0:35:58 > 0:36:00- Simple as that. - I want to go to the hand there,
0:36:00 > 0:36:03with spectacles attached, I think. Yes.
0:36:03 > 0:36:07Oh... Why does it have to be political?
0:36:07 > 0:36:13I would like to see the NHS and education system taken out
0:36:13 > 0:36:16and not be a political football all the time.
0:36:16 > 0:36:21The money wasted by every government doing different things and
0:36:21 > 0:36:27bringing in different aspects of it is horrendous, the money wasted.
0:36:27 > 0:36:30Why can't we have two panels of experts
0:36:30 > 0:36:32that run these two very important...?
0:36:32 > 0:36:35- WILL SELF:- Oh... You can't have experts.
0:36:35 > 0:36:36They're not allowed any more.
0:36:38 > 0:36:41Richard... Richard... Richard Burgon.
0:36:41 > 0:36:45I think it's really important that people have raised this issue
0:36:45 > 0:36:48and I'd like to congratulate the woman at the back who runs
0:36:48 > 0:36:51her own business for saying what a lot of people think
0:36:51 > 0:36:54but a lot of people think that no-one else agrees with,
0:36:54 > 0:36:58that businesspeople, some businesspeople realise that
0:36:58 > 0:37:02it was wrong for the Conservative government to cut corporation tax.
0:37:02 > 0:37:04It's not good for the NHS,
0:37:04 > 0:37:07corporation tax in the United States even is much higher,
0:37:07 > 0:37:09it's not good for our public services and, in the long run,
0:37:09 > 0:37:14it's not good for the economy in which our businesses operate.
0:37:14 > 0:37:15We've also got to look at the facts,
0:37:15 > 0:37:19not just at what the tax rates are at the top and elsewhere,
0:37:19 > 0:37:22but also the fact of are we collecting the tax?
0:37:22 > 0:37:28There have been cuts to tax collection in terms of the staff
0:37:28 > 0:37:31in charge of dealing with tax avoidance and tax evasion.
0:37:31 > 0:37:34And with the super-rich. I'm not even on about MPs.
0:37:34 > 0:37:36I'm on about the super-rich.
0:37:36 > 0:37:39There is tax avoidance and tax evasion on an industrial
0:37:39 > 0:37:42scale and we need determination to tackle that.
0:37:42 > 0:37:44It's the most unpatriotic thing
0:37:44 > 0:37:47because when those people don't pay their tax,
0:37:47 > 0:37:50they are stealing from every person in this audience, they're
0:37:50 > 0:37:53stealing from your schools, they're stealing from your hospitals.
0:37:53 > 0:37:55Let's stop praising these people
0:37:55 > 0:37:58and electing them as President of the United States
0:37:58 > 0:37:59and let's start collecting their tax.
0:37:59 > 0:38:01APPLAUSE
0:38:06 > 0:38:09And you think that would fill the gap?
0:38:09 > 0:38:11That'd be part of the way to filling the gap.
0:38:11 > 0:38:14But we also need a strategy for economic growth.
0:38:14 > 0:38:21All right. And Roy Horn says income tax... Dr Horn, I think, yes?
0:38:21 > 0:38:24You think a basic rate of income tax should be increased?
0:38:24 > 0:38:28I don't think it's just basic rate tax. That brings in a huge tax take.
0:38:28 > 0:38:30I think it is the higher rate of taxes as well.
0:38:30 > 0:38:33And I accept all the points the panel have made
0:38:33 > 0:38:35regarding the evasion of tax.
0:38:35 > 0:38:39And the fact you actually need a new tax to deal with corporations,
0:38:39 > 0:38:44a sort of tax which they can only set against UK corporation tax.
0:38:44 > 0:38:46But I must say the only person on your panel tonight who can
0:38:46 > 0:38:49change this is Sarah Wollaston,
0:38:49 > 0:38:54and she is crying a lot of crocodile tears over the NHS.
0:38:54 > 0:38:58The NHS needs money. Stop giving us this sort of rhetoric.
0:38:58 > 0:39:00Start finding more money.
0:39:00 > 0:39:01What are her crocodile tears?
0:39:01 > 0:39:04- APPLAUSE - Well...- Wait a minute.
0:39:04 > 0:39:08- You accuse her of hypocrisy by saying she's...- I do.
0:39:08 > 0:39:11She will sit there and tell us how difficult it is for the NHS
0:39:11 > 0:39:14to be run and how many people need to be treated.
0:39:14 > 0:39:18We know the demand of this equation.
0:39:18 > 0:39:21The Tories - Sarah Wollaston is in that group -
0:39:21 > 0:39:24are not providing the cash to meet that demand.
0:39:24 > 0:39:25It is as simple as that.
0:39:25 > 0:39:28I will answer your point because it is something... Cos I chair
0:39:28 > 0:39:31the Health Committee and this is something that we have looked at.
0:39:31 > 0:39:34We're there to hold the government to account and I agree with you
0:39:34 > 0:39:38that we're not putting enough in and that I think we have
0:39:38 > 0:39:41increased the amount of spending on the total health spend.
0:39:41 > 0:39:45Then what are you going to do? You are the government of today.
0:39:45 > 0:39:48I think where you misunderstand, sir, is that I'm not government,
0:39:48 > 0:39:51that there is another part of Parliament which holds
0:39:51 > 0:39:54government to account and that is the Select Committee system
0:39:54 > 0:39:58and these are cross-party committees which are there to scrutinise
0:39:58 > 0:40:01what the government is doing and actually to hold them to account,
0:40:01 > 0:40:03to ask the questions that you're asking,
0:40:03 > 0:40:05and I think it's a good thing that there are more politicians
0:40:05 > 0:40:09now who come from backgrounds from health, from all sorts of
0:40:09 > 0:40:12other backgrounds, who can use the experience that they have to
0:40:12 > 0:40:15come in and try and advise government and hold
0:40:15 > 0:40:17government to account, and that's the role I have and I think
0:40:17 > 0:40:21a lot of people assume that the Select Committees are part of
0:40:21 > 0:40:23government but they're not, they're part of Parliament.
0:40:23 > 0:40:27- But I understand...- There are more politicians talking about it
0:40:27 > 0:40:30but the Tory government is doing nothing about it.
0:40:30 > 0:40:34And what you need is a mechanism in Parliament to hold government
0:40:34 > 0:40:36to account to make these points.
0:40:36 > 0:40:40- I know it...- It might be a Tory majority, mightn't it,
0:40:40 > 0:40:42in the House of Commons? Which is what you've got.
0:40:42 > 0:40:46The one people who can do something about this are doing nothing.
0:40:46 > 0:40:49You say you want a mechanism, he says you're doing nothing,
0:40:49 > 0:40:52but you do have a majority, as you've just said.
0:40:52 > 0:40:54You could just change it tomorrow.
0:40:54 > 0:40:58Indeed, and so my role in Parliament is to hold the government to
0:40:58 > 0:41:01account and say I think there is more that we could be doing
0:41:01 > 0:41:05to make our NHS and social care work better and to suggest
0:41:05 > 0:41:08- mechanisms by which they could do that.- All right. Pause that.
0:41:08 > 0:41:11- Louise... OK, doctor. Louise Mensch. - It might be...- No, hold on.
0:41:11 > 0:41:14..your ideology that's holding you back.
0:41:14 > 0:41:18- Louise Mensch.- I want to start off by apologising to Sarah Wollaston.
0:41:18 > 0:41:22During the Brexit referendum, I said that for narrow political gain
0:41:22 > 0:41:25she had changed her vote and I am sorry, Sarah,
0:41:25 > 0:41:28that I said that, because I was completely wrong.
0:41:28 > 0:41:32You are one of the best MPs that we have seen in a long time
0:41:32 > 0:41:36and this is a doctor who served the public all her life as a GP,
0:41:36 > 0:41:40working in rape crisis centres before she was elected
0:41:40 > 0:41:43in an open primary and came into politics and when I hear
0:41:43 > 0:41:47this level of cynicism I do get slightly annoyed because when
0:41:47 > 0:41:51people are doing their best to stand up for the public and they're
0:41:51 > 0:41:54just treated like random liars, that is wrong.
0:41:54 > 0:41:56Let me say though to the question that was asked in terms of
0:41:56 > 0:41:59shall we raise tax on basic ratepayers?
0:41:59 > 0:42:02Shall we raise it on corporations? Shall we raise it on the super-rich?
0:42:02 > 0:42:05Let's just have a big tax party and raise the tax on everybody.
0:42:05 > 0:42:09I don't think that there is this perfect balance between
0:42:09 > 0:42:12throwing money at the NHS in the state that it is in,
0:42:12 > 0:42:14and receiving the best care.
0:42:14 > 0:42:17The question shouldn't be how can we spend more money on the NHS?
0:42:17 > 0:42:20The question should be how can we get the best possible care
0:42:20 > 0:42:24across disciplines for people that is free for the point of use?
0:42:24 > 0:42:26How can we get the best possible NHS?
0:42:26 > 0:42:30And the answer isn't just to raise taxes. That makes our economy worse.
0:42:30 > 0:42:32Socialism has never succeeded
0:42:32 > 0:42:35anywhere in the world that it has been tried.
0:42:35 > 0:42:38Capitalism is what makes these things grow.
0:42:38 > 0:42:41And we saw in Dfid, the Department for International Development,
0:42:41 > 0:42:43they had some openness.
0:42:43 > 0:42:46They published where the money went and journalist people were able to
0:42:46 > 0:42:48look at it and see all the waste, all the consultants,
0:42:48 > 0:42:52all the corruption, all the stuff that's not going to the front line.
0:42:52 > 0:42:55I'd like to see some openness in what's spent in the NHS and
0:42:55 > 0:42:59see if we can improve our NHS for everybody in this country
0:42:59 > 0:43:02without just throwing money at it and that's the answer.
0:43:02 > 0:43:04Thank you.
0:43:04 > 0:43:05APPLAUSE
0:43:08 > 0:43:11Yes, the woman up over there. I'll come to you in a second. Yes.
0:43:11 > 0:43:13I'm glad that you mentioned Dfid, actually,
0:43:13 > 0:43:17cos what I think would be important is...is not to look at
0:43:17 > 0:43:20increasing taxation but looking at where our budgets are at
0:43:20 > 0:43:22the moment and perhaps looking at reducing foreign aid for this
0:43:22 > 0:43:26reason, that a lot of the illegal immigrants in this country
0:43:26 > 0:43:28are using resources, and we discussed last week that you
0:43:28 > 0:43:31can't turn them away from hospitals and you can't turn them away
0:43:31 > 0:43:33from schools, so why can we not treat these people,
0:43:33 > 0:43:36give them the resources that people who are legal here are
0:43:36 > 0:43:39entitled to, but get reimbursement from the foreign aid budget?
0:43:39 > 0:43:42So to shuffle the budgets we have, rather than increase taxation.
0:43:42 > 0:43:45Use the Dfid budget for people who have arrived here as immigrants?
0:43:45 > 0:43:48No, illegal immigrants here, and we can't turn them away,
0:43:48 > 0:43:50they're effectively foreigners in this country,
0:43:50 > 0:43:52so treat them with the same budget that the foreign aid would
0:43:52 > 0:43:54have given them in their countries.
0:43:54 > 0:43:56All right. What do you think of that?
0:43:56 > 0:43:59APPLAUSE
0:43:59 > 0:44:01What do you think of that particular proposal?
0:44:01 > 0:44:03Well, I do want to make the point, by the way,
0:44:03 > 0:44:09that our NHS is kept running by migrants who work in our NHS
0:44:09 > 0:44:12and we do need to look at increasing training
0:44:12 > 0:44:15so we're training more doctors, so we're training more nurses.
0:44:15 > 0:44:16But on the point that Louise raised...
0:44:16 > 0:44:19On the point she was making, can you just do that one?
0:44:19 > 0:44:21- You heard her point? - I was talking about the budget,
0:44:21 > 0:44:23how you pay for it, how you get money,
0:44:23 > 0:44:26and it's not so much increasing taxation but looking at
0:44:26 > 0:44:28where our budget, our national budget is spent.
0:44:28 > 0:44:30We have a huge foreign aid budget,
0:44:30 > 0:44:33which is actually quite a lot more than other countries,
0:44:33 > 0:44:36and where we're looking after the interests of illegal immigrants
0:44:36 > 0:44:38who shouldn't really be here but we don't want to
0:44:38 > 0:44:41turn them away from our hospitals and our schools and our housing,
0:44:41 > 0:44:44indeed, our prisons, and invoice that back to the foreign aid budget
0:44:44 > 0:44:46and get it back in.
0:44:46 > 0:44:50The reason for the crisis in our NHS is not the amount of money
0:44:50 > 0:44:53that the Conservative government spends on foreign aid.
0:44:53 > 0:44:57What I would say is that I do agree that the NHS should be properly
0:44:57 > 0:45:01funded but it's not only proper funding that will solve the problem.
0:45:01 > 0:45:06I think we have, in Jeremy Hunt, a Health Secretary that is failing.
0:45:06 > 0:45:09Guess what - with the exception of Sarah,
0:45:09 > 0:45:12none of us have been a doctor.
0:45:12 > 0:45:15I think that Jeremy Hunt shouldn't be looking for politicians to
0:45:15 > 0:45:16just to give answers on the NHS.
0:45:16 > 0:45:19Perhaps he should listen to the professionals who work
0:45:19 > 0:45:21in the NHS rather than picking fights with them.
0:45:21 > 0:45:25But on the final point, Louise says that socialism has never worked.
0:45:25 > 0:45:28- SHE MOUTHS - Socialism has worked.
0:45:28 > 0:45:31The NHS is a pocket of socialism in our country,
0:45:31 > 0:45:35set up by a Labour government, which ensures that we don't have
0:45:35 > 0:45:37a situation like we do in the United States
0:45:37 > 0:45:40where people feel for your wallet before they feel for your pulse.
0:45:40 > 0:45:42I'm really proud of that and so should you be.
0:45:42 > 0:45:45I want to... APPLAUSE
0:45:45 > 0:45:49I'll take just one more point, from the woman in green there,
0:45:49 > 0:45:51then I must move on, I'm afraid.
0:45:51 > 0:45:55Hi there. I just wanted to say that although we can put more money into
0:45:55 > 0:45:59the NHS, for sure, from tax, but actually how are we going to
0:45:59 > 0:46:02be sure that that money is spent wisely?
0:46:02 > 0:46:05There's so much bureaucracy going on and it's not necessarily
0:46:05 > 0:46:07going into the services that it needs to.
0:46:07 > 0:46:11For example, there's a report that came out last week which
0:46:11 > 0:46:17showed that suicide is the main cause of death of new mums.
0:46:19 > 0:46:22That's something that in perinatal mental health,
0:46:22 > 0:46:28you know, we are not saving women who have just had babies.
0:46:28 > 0:46:30I've had postnatal illness for 13 years.
0:46:30 > 0:46:34Hold on. Just start again. Start again.
0:46:34 > 0:46:37I had postnatal illness for 13 years.
0:46:37 > 0:46:39- All right.- No help.
0:46:39 > 0:46:41No help. OK, and I'll take one more point.
0:46:41 > 0:46:45You, sir, in the checked shirt there. Yes.
0:46:45 > 0:46:46I do work in the NHS.
0:46:46 > 0:46:50- Yes, what as?- I'm a manager.- Yeah.
0:46:50 > 0:46:52AUDIENCE MURMUR
0:46:52 > 0:46:53A bureaucrat.
0:46:53 > 0:46:56It's the only organisation I've worked in where everybody
0:46:56 > 0:47:00I've come across is genuinely focused on delivering the objective
0:47:00 > 0:47:01of that organisation.
0:47:01 > 0:47:04I've served in the Army and that was mostly the case in the Army,
0:47:04 > 0:47:07but not universally. In NHS, it is.
0:47:07 > 0:47:10With 98% of trusts in deficit, or I forget the exact number,
0:47:10 > 0:47:13that's not simply a question of bad management.
0:47:13 > 0:47:17There is not enough money and I spend all of my days trying
0:47:17 > 0:47:20to work out how we can deliver the care that we need to deliver
0:47:20 > 0:47:23with what diminishing amounts of money we have.
0:47:23 > 0:47:25- We need more money.- And how...?
0:47:25 > 0:47:29APPLAUSE
0:47:30 > 0:47:34And how do you think that more money should be got?
0:47:34 > 0:47:37By increasing taxation or by taking it from other budgets?
0:47:37 > 0:47:40I don't know enough about tax mechanisms but there are two people
0:47:40 > 0:47:42on the panel that are in a position to change it.
0:47:42 > 0:47:44- NIGEL FARAGE:- Once we've left the European Union...
0:47:44 > 0:47:46- You're not one of them. - LAUGHTER
0:47:46 > 0:47:48APPLAUSE
0:47:49 > 0:47:51Absolutely not.
0:47:51 > 0:47:53A new hospital every week wouldn't be a bad start, would it?
0:47:53 > 0:47:56Let's get on with Article 50 and then we can build more hospitals.
0:47:56 > 0:48:00Nigel Farage, were you a supporter of the 350 million thing?
0:48:00 > 0:48:01I certainly wasn't. It was stupid.
0:48:01 > 0:48:03They should have put 200 million a week,
0:48:03 > 0:48:06which would have been factually absolutely correct
0:48:06 > 0:48:09and big enough to persuade people there were big savings to be made.
0:48:09 > 0:48:12Why did the people wanting Brexit exaggerate?
0:48:12 > 0:48:13They didn't need to.
0:48:13 > 0:48:16- Why did they?- Oh, don't ask me.
0:48:16 > 0:48:20Inside the mind of Tory politicians, I don't quite get it.
0:48:20 > 0:48:22But it was a big mistake.
0:48:22 > 0:48:25As I say, whether it was 350 or 200 was irrelevant, really.
0:48:25 > 0:48:28It was to say to people we'll make big savings.
0:48:28 > 0:48:30But it was a mistake, yes.
0:48:30 > 0:48:32- AUDIENCE MEMBER:- It was a lie. - A lie, somebody shouts out.
0:48:32 > 0:48:36You in orange there, the woman in orange just there on the corner.
0:48:36 > 0:48:39Thank you. Yes, I think this is an important debate
0:48:39 > 0:48:40but we've always focused on NHS
0:48:40 > 0:48:43and yet the real problem, as Sarah pointed out, is it's actually
0:48:43 > 0:48:46funding social care, and that is funded by the local authorities.
0:48:46 > 0:48:48Until we actually accept that,
0:48:48 > 0:48:51we're always going to have pressure on our NHS because it's
0:48:51 > 0:48:54shifting what should be something that could be managed quite
0:48:54 > 0:48:57effectively and quite locally into very, very expensive centres,
0:48:57 > 0:49:00putting real cost pressures on those centres,
0:49:00 > 0:49:02so we really do have to get the balance right.
0:49:02 > 0:49:07Do you think we expect too much social care to be provided and not
0:49:07 > 0:49:11enough to be provided by families and individuals for their families?
0:49:11 > 0:49:13I think that's an interesting point because I think most people
0:49:13 > 0:49:17think the NHS was there to provide care but increasingly care is
0:49:17 > 0:49:21being shifted out of the NHS into families, into social care,
0:49:21 > 0:49:22into care homes,
0:49:22 > 0:49:27and not being provided directly by the NHS and I think that is
0:49:27 > 0:49:30a balance that we need to look at and understand a bit better.
0:49:30 > 0:49:31OK. And you, sir, in pink here.
0:49:31 > 0:49:32APPLAUSE
0:49:35 > 0:49:38I work as a part-time carer but I just wanted to pick up on what
0:49:38 > 0:49:42Louise said earlier when she apologised to Sarah because I
0:49:42 > 0:49:45thought it was only Donald Trump had the gall,
0:49:45 > 0:49:47or had the ability to apologise.
0:49:47 > 0:49:50- What Nigel Farage said at the beginning.- Thank you, Nigel.
0:49:50 > 0:49:53I didn't say only Donald Trump. I said very few.
0:49:53 > 0:49:56And she's not in elected politics.
0:49:56 > 0:49:59- If she was a Tory MP still, she wouldn't have apologised.- All right.
0:49:59 > 0:50:02Let's go on. We've only a few minutes left tonight.
0:50:02 > 0:50:04- Deborah Dibb, please. Deborah Dibb. - Thank you.
0:50:04 > 0:50:09Is Boris Johnson too much of a loose cannon to be Foreign Secretary?
0:50:09 > 0:50:10Oh!
0:50:10 > 0:50:15So, we've seen him being reprimanded by Number Ten today
0:50:15 > 0:50:20for what he said. Will Self, is he too much of a loose cannon?
0:50:20 > 0:50:24Yes, basically. Yeah, he is.
0:50:24 > 0:50:32I mean, there was a feeling at Chez Self that perhaps Mrs May had
0:50:32 > 0:50:38appointed him deliberately in order to humiliate him but of course,
0:50:38 > 0:50:43such is the closeness of our relationship with the House of Saud,
0:50:43 > 0:50:48who are our besties, that anything we can do to keep
0:50:48 > 0:50:53the House of Saud onside, we're prepared to do.
0:50:53 > 0:50:56I mean, after all, you mustn't be too hard on Boris.
0:50:56 > 0:51:01He did say the weird thing about the proxy wars, referring to this rather
0:51:01 > 0:51:05horrible thing where these people called Houthis are being killed in
0:51:05 > 0:51:07Yemen, but what he didn't say,
0:51:07 > 0:51:10which would have been much, much more worrying,
0:51:10 > 0:51:14was that of course the proxy wars are between...
0:51:14 > 0:51:16It's really a family argument
0:51:16 > 0:51:19between two sides of our dear friends the House of Saud,
0:51:19 > 0:51:23who at any opportunity we like to give arms to.
0:51:23 > 0:51:28We actually have a British Army unit in Riyadh at the moment
0:51:28 > 0:51:30helping them plan to kill Houthis.
0:51:30 > 0:51:35So Boris was really being quite restrained, I think.
0:51:35 > 0:51:36APPLAUSE
0:51:39 > 0:51:42And can you have somebody as Foreign Secretary who says things
0:51:42 > 0:51:44that are immediately countermanded by Downing Street?
0:51:44 > 0:51:46Is this the new politics? Healthy arrangement?
0:51:46 > 0:51:52- He's going to go, isn't he? He's toast, isn't he?- Is he?- Yeah.
0:51:52 > 0:51:55Doesn't she need him for the Brexit bit?
0:51:55 > 0:51:58Well, I think she can probably come up with something better than that.
0:51:58 > 0:52:00But I mean, the whole show may be
0:52:00 > 0:52:02about to hit the end of the pier, David.
0:52:02 > 0:52:06- Louise Mensch. - No, I don't think he is.
0:52:06 > 0:52:10You're saying is Boris too much of a loose cannon to be Foreign Secretary
0:52:10 > 0:52:11when Donald Trump has just been elected
0:52:11 > 0:52:14President of the United States. I mean, come on.
0:52:14 > 0:52:20I don't think that Boris was hard enough on the Saudis and
0:52:20 > 0:52:22instead of just saying it's a family war between two sides,
0:52:22 > 0:52:27Shia and Sunni, I wish he'd said, "Why are we giving money to this
0:52:27 > 0:52:29"hideous nation that is Isis with an embassy,
0:52:29 > 0:52:33"that treats women as slaves and chops off their heads in car parks
0:52:33 > 0:52:35"and calls them terrorists if they drive?"
0:52:35 > 0:52:38We shouldn't have any kind of relationship with Saudi Arabia,
0:52:38 > 0:52:41far less have the Foreign Office mandarins sucking up to them
0:52:41 > 0:52:44as their ally. And I like about Boris is he speaks his mind and
0:52:44 > 0:52:47he is an intelligent man. You may joke but he is clever.
0:52:47 > 0:52:49And he will stand up to Putin,
0:52:49 > 0:52:51as it's been a bit too much of a lovefest tonight.
0:52:51 > 0:52:54I'll say to Nigel Farage, I think your sucking up to this
0:52:54 > 0:52:56genocidal tyrant is absolutely disgusting.
0:52:56 > 0:53:00This is the man that killed 20-year-old Richard Mayne
0:53:00 > 0:53:03and ten other Britons, that shot down MH17,
0:53:03 > 0:53:07and the level of sucking up to this disgusting dictator
0:53:07 > 0:53:10is something that I hope Boris Johnson will put a stop to
0:53:10 > 0:53:12and if he can stand up to the civil servants at the Foreign Office
0:53:12 > 0:53:14he'll be doing us all a big favour.
0:53:14 > 0:53:15APPLAUSE
0:53:19 > 0:53:20Nigel Farage.
0:53:21 > 0:53:25Well, I'm feeling as confused right now as Boris is most days.
0:53:25 > 0:53:27I find myself in total agreement
0:53:27 > 0:53:30with Will Self and Louise Mensch about Saudi Arabia.
0:53:30 > 0:53:33Just back in October, Boris was saying what wonderful trade
0:53:33 > 0:53:37we heard with that Saudi Arabia and the other point that wasn't made
0:53:37 > 0:53:40is that during all the terrible things that have been happening
0:53:40 > 0:53:42in the Middle East, the refugee crisis,
0:53:42 > 0:53:44the displaced peoples crisis,
0:53:44 > 0:53:46do you know how many people Saudi Arabia have taken?
0:53:46 > 0:53:48Not one.
0:53:48 > 0:53:53Not one. And yet they're about to fund 200 new mosques in Germany.
0:53:53 > 0:53:56You may say that's fine but when you realise that the Saudis that
0:53:56 > 0:53:59have pushed Wahhabism, it's the Saudis that have pushed the burqa,
0:53:59 > 0:54:03it's the Saudis that have pushed the extreme form of Islam that is
0:54:03 > 0:54:05causing the problem, so I agree with you on that.
0:54:05 > 0:54:09- And you might just answer about Putin.- Look, the point is this.
0:54:09 > 0:54:12I said already in this programme to the lady up there,
0:54:12 > 0:54:14I would not want to live in Putin's Russia.
0:54:14 > 0:54:17I completely understand that, you know, journalists like you
0:54:17 > 0:54:19who tweet a lot, I mean, you wouldn't last long over there.
0:54:19 > 0:54:21You know, I get all that.
0:54:21 > 0:54:23But what I am saying is I do think
0:54:23 > 0:54:25our foreign policy provoking him has been a mistake.
0:54:25 > 0:54:28We're not provoking him. He's bombed hospitals in Aleppo.
0:54:28 > 0:54:31He's killing children right now and you're sucking up to him.
0:54:31 > 0:54:34No, no, no. No. Obviously not doing that.
0:54:34 > 0:54:36- What I am saying... - LOUISE MENSCH:- Yes, you are.
0:54:36 > 0:54:38..we made a major strategic error with Ukraine.
0:54:38 > 0:54:42We helped to topple a democratically elected leader by trying to draw
0:54:42 > 0:54:44Ukraine into our orbit and I think we should stop
0:54:44 > 0:54:47provoking Putin, start talking to him.
0:54:47 > 0:54:49You know, I don't want him as a friend,
0:54:49 > 0:54:51but neither do I want to go to war with him.
0:54:51 > 0:54:53But the question, is Boris Johnson too much of
0:54:53 > 0:54:57a loose cannon to be...? Well, as an individual, clearly he is.
0:54:57 > 0:55:01But what I'd like to know is what does he stand for?
0:55:01 > 0:55:02What does he stand for?
0:55:02 > 0:55:06We haven't really heard, other than encouraging people to protest
0:55:06 > 0:55:09- outside the embassy, the Russian Embassy.- Brexit maybe?
0:55:09 > 0:55:11Did he stand for Brexit?
0:55:11 > 0:55:13I saw him getting off the Eurostar this week
0:55:13 > 0:55:15and he looked a bit bewildered, I've got to tell you.
0:55:15 > 0:55:17Did he stand for Brexit during the campaign
0:55:17 > 0:55:18or are you saying he didn't really stand?
0:55:18 > 0:55:21He did stand for Brexit in the campaign and now we hear
0:55:21 > 0:55:24he's briefing embassies that he supports free movement.
0:55:24 > 0:55:25That's hypocrisy.
0:55:25 > 0:55:28You're saying we'll deal with some dictators but not with others,
0:55:28 > 0:55:31because I don't like Saudi Arabia but I like Putin.
0:55:31 > 0:55:36- No, no, no.- Hold it. Hold it, ma'am. I will go to the man up there
0:55:36 > 0:55:39in the pink shirt. You, sir, yes.
0:55:39 > 0:55:42Nigel's been after a job as an ambassador for some time.
0:55:42 > 0:55:46Perhaps he should be the ambassador to the House of Saud.
0:55:46 > 0:55:48Thank you.
0:55:48 > 0:55:51And you on the far... Yes.
0:55:51 > 0:55:54Earlier Nigel Farage said that the Saudis were funding mosques
0:55:54 > 0:55:58in Germany and then straightaway talked about Islamophobia.
0:55:58 > 0:56:01Isn't blase comments like that the reason why people are feeling
0:56:01 > 0:56:06ostracised from society and moving towards extremist groups?
0:56:06 > 0:56:08No. No. No.
0:56:08 > 0:56:11I have never, ever, ever wanted, and there are some politicians in
0:56:11 > 0:56:15Europe that do, I do not want us to go to war with Islam. Far from it.
0:56:15 > 0:56:17I want us to get on in this country.
0:56:17 > 0:56:21The damage that has been done by the Saudis pushing a very extreme form
0:56:21 > 0:56:25of Islam has done more harm than anything else. I promise you.
0:56:25 > 0:56:26Absolutely right.
0:56:26 > 0:56:29APPLAUSE
0:56:29 > 0:56:32A quick point if you would because we're coming to the end. Yes.
0:56:32 > 0:56:35You'd said obviously that you don't support or...
0:56:35 > 0:56:37You support Donald Trump, don't you?
0:56:37 > 0:56:40And he obviously doesn't like Islam, for whatever reason.
0:56:40 > 0:56:41OK, I can't go back to Mr Farage
0:56:41 > 0:56:43cos we've head quite a lot from him.
0:56:43 > 0:56:47- Far too much.- Richard Burgon. You said it, I didn't say that.
0:56:47 > 0:56:48Richard Burgon.
0:56:48 > 0:56:50On Boris Johnson,
0:56:50 > 0:56:55Boris Johnson is, I'm afraid, an actor and a rank opportunist.
0:56:55 > 0:56:56One day he was for Remain,
0:56:56 > 0:56:59the next day he was for Leave cos he wanted to be leader
0:56:59 > 0:57:02of the Conservative Party and Prime Minister,
0:57:02 > 0:57:05then his position on Saudi Arabia,
0:57:05 > 0:57:06what can we believe?
0:57:06 > 0:57:10Just two or three weeks ago in the House of Commons,
0:57:10 > 0:57:16Labour brought a motion calling on a halt on arms sales to Saudi Arabia,
0:57:16 > 0:57:18pending an investigation into whether or not
0:57:18 > 0:57:21those weapons are being used for war crimes in Yemen.
0:57:21 > 0:57:24Boris Johnson stood at the dispatch box and said,
0:57:24 > 0:57:27"Nothing to see here, don't worry about it,"
0:57:27 > 0:57:29and he voted against the motion.
0:57:29 > 0:57:32Then we find he's saying these other things when he's abroad.
0:57:32 > 0:57:36He's not a safe pair of hands, he's not responsible,
0:57:36 > 0:57:39and who knows what he actually believes in, apart from himself?
0:57:39 > 0:57:40OK.
0:57:40 > 0:57:41APPLAUSE
0:57:43 > 0:57:47He's your man, Sarah Wollaston, your Foreign Secretary.
0:57:47 > 0:57:50He absolutely shouldn't lose his job. He spoke the truth.
0:57:50 > 0:57:53He called for leaders in the region to stand up and
0:57:53 > 0:57:57stop the sectarian bloodbath and that starts a debate and starts us
0:57:57 > 0:58:00in that direction, I'd say he's done us all a favour.
0:58:00 > 0:58:01OK, thank you.
0:58:01 > 0:58:03APPLAUSE
0:58:03 > 0:58:06Time's up. We're back in the New Year
0:58:06 > 0:58:09in Solihull, and the week after that in Peterborough,
0:58:09 > 0:58:12so come and take part. I can't remain what date it is in Solihull.
0:58:12 > 0:58:16It's about two weeks into January. The 12th, I think, of January.
0:58:16 > 0:58:18So 12th of January just outside Birmingham
0:58:18 > 0:58:20or Peterborough the week after that.
0:58:20 > 0:58:24You can go to our website, you can call 0330 123 99 88.
0:58:24 > 0:58:27If you're listening on 5 Live to this but not seeing it,
0:58:27 > 0:58:30you know the debate goes on, on Question Time Extra Time.
0:58:30 > 0:58:34But my thanks now to our panel here and to all of you who came
0:58:34 > 0:58:37to take part in this last programme before Christmas.
0:58:37 > 0:58:40So, from Maidenhead, until the New Year,
0:58:40 > 0:58:43a very Merry Christmas, everyone, and good night.
0:58:43 > 0:58:44APPLAUSE