:00:00. > :00:00.Welcome to this first Question Time of 2017.
:00:00. > :00:19.Conservative Leader of the House of Commons, David Lidington.
:00:20. > :00:25.The Labour MP who chaired the Vote Leave campaign, Gisela Stuart.
:00:26. > :00:28.Guardian columnist and broadcaster, Paul Mason.
:00:29. > :00:30.Professor of Planetary and Space Sciences
:00:31. > :00:34.at the Open University, Monica Grady.
:00:35. > :00:36.And the businessman and Brexit campaigner
:00:37. > :00:53.who was a major Ukip donor, Arron Banks.
:00:54. > :00:59.As ever, you can join the debate on Facebook,
:01:00. > :01:20.Our first question from Inderveer Kang. Is Donald Trump fit to be
:01:21. > :01:28.leader of the free world? Arron Banks? I think he absolutely is. He
:01:29. > :01:33.won the election fair and square. A lot of people question his methods,
:01:34. > :01:37.maybe. But our experience of dealing with him, we had quite a lot of
:01:38. > :01:45.interaction between the Brexit campaign and Trump. I think he is
:01:46. > :01:49.pretty rational, actually. Certainly, in our meetings with him
:01:50. > :01:53.he was very calm and reflective and he is quite different off-camera.
:01:54. > :01:57.There is certainly an element of showmanship about what he does and
:01:58. > :02:03.time will tell whether the sorts of things he is going to do will be
:02:04. > :02:07.radically better or not. But he has appointed a cabinet of businessmen,
:02:08. > :02:17.very rich ones, at that. So we will see how it pans out. We saw you with
:02:18. > :02:22.Nigel Farage in the Golden lift at Trump Tower. What were you talking
:02:23. > :02:29.about? That wasn't the lift, that was his front door. What did you
:02:30. > :02:34.talk about? With Nigel, he wanted to talk about the campaign. He was
:02:35. > :02:38.tired, it had been a bruising campaign, and they shared that
:02:39. > :02:41.camaraderie. But we talked, interestingly, about how he wants to
:02:42. > :02:46.redistribute wealth from the rich to the poor in America. I think even
:02:47. > :02:54.Paul would have been at home there. It was interesting. I would not have
:02:55. > :03:03.used the showers! That's very naughty. Paul Mason. If any of the
:03:04. > :03:06.substantive allegations in the security dossier that's being
:03:07. > :03:09.published now and handed to the American authorities are true, he
:03:10. > :03:16.can't be the President. If they are true, and they are allegations, then
:03:17. > :03:19.he is a security risk. Not a security risk to America, but a
:03:20. > :03:23.security risk to the 800 British troops who will be sent to Estonia
:03:24. > :03:27.this year to stand on the front line with Russia. There is no proof in
:03:28. > :03:32.that dossier that he has done any of these things. It looks like raw
:03:33. > :03:37.intelligence. I have seen secret intelligence. It doesn't look like
:03:38. > :03:42.that. This looks like the input that intelligence people use to make
:03:43. > :03:44.decisions. The person who wrote it clearly has no interception
:03:45. > :03:50.facilities, no data surveillance facilities. But you know, Trump
:03:51. > :03:55.himself, during the campaign, actually called on Russia to hack
:03:56. > :03:59.Hillary Clinton. Hillary Clinton is not just a candidate but the former
:04:00. > :04:06.first Lady of the United States. This means, if any of these things
:04:07. > :04:10.are true, and they are two things, one is conspiracy with the Kremlin
:04:11. > :04:18.over years, and misbehaviour in a hotel. The CIA will know about it.
:04:19. > :04:21.The CIA and FBI -- FBI will know the details. They have the technology.
:04:22. > :04:31.They know what shade of gold the shower was. So Obama knows. Obama
:04:32. > :04:35.will know. And I think he has the duty, as do the CIA chiefs, for us,
:04:36. > :04:39.not just the American people, to level with people in the West what
:04:40. > :04:43.they think is true. If it is not true, let's move on. Other than
:04:44. > :04:53.that, of course he has the right. He is the elected President. Look, he
:04:54. > :04:57.has been elected and will be inaugurated. I think we ought to
:04:58. > :05:01.have a debate about the people he appoints around him now. We should
:05:02. > :05:05.have a very serious look at whether the American constitution will be
:05:06. > :05:09.stress tested, because Congress will have its say as to what the
:05:10. > :05:13.President can do. I would not have voted for him but nobody asked me. I
:05:14. > :05:16.don't think we should equate Brexit with Trump. These were two
:05:17. > :05:21.completely different things. He has been elected leader of the free
:05:22. > :05:26.world and we have a responsibility to work with him as best as we can,
:05:27. > :05:31.and the jury is out. The question is, is he fit to be leader? You have
:05:32. > :05:36.watched his campaign and heard the way he conducted himself. What
:05:37. > :05:41.politicians are fit to be elected, if you put it that way? He probably
:05:42. > :05:46.got elected because he wasn't a politician. If you talk about
:05:47. > :05:50.fitness, we know one thing about the American system. It is enormously
:05:51. > :05:56.robust and has means to deal with people who are not fit for the
:05:57. > :06:00.system, and it will be up to the Americans to exercise their
:06:01. > :06:03.democratic procedures. What we have seen with Donald Trump in the past
:06:04. > :06:07.is that he is an entrepreneur, has made a fortune and lost one. He has
:06:08. > :06:12.done all sorts of things which may or may not be dodgy. He has
:06:13. > :06:16.certainly expressed some extremely unpalatable opinions and shown
:06:17. > :06:20.himself to be, you know, well, I'm not going to say dodgy, but he has
:06:21. > :06:26.shown himself to be a strange person. But he has not been
:06:27. > :06:32.confined. He was the leader of his empire. He was in charge of his own
:06:33. > :06:36.destiny. As he becomes leader of the free world, the democratically, we
:06:37. > :06:43.assume, elected leader of the free world. He is going to be hedged
:06:44. > :06:47.around by advisers. OK, yes, the ones he has appointed but also
:06:48. > :06:53.others. He will not be able, I sincerely trust, be able to push
:06:54. > :06:59.that nuclear button, give every home in the USA two guns, as he has said.
:07:00. > :07:04.He will not be able to do this. He will be constricted. He has to be.
:07:05. > :07:11.Then he will be a massive disappointment to the people who
:07:12. > :07:14.voted for him. Maybe. Maybe so. Look at his first policy, he wants to
:07:15. > :07:19.take on the pharmaceutical industry in America. That is a wonderful
:07:20. > :07:24.aspiration as his first policy. I think he aims to do what he says.
:07:25. > :07:28.When he said, I am going to build a big, beautiful wall and the Mexicans
:07:29. > :07:32.are going to pay for it, he will do it. Whether you agree with it or
:07:33. > :07:38.not, that is what he will do. But the joke was, and the Mexicans have
:07:39. > :07:43.agreed to pay for it and no damn American is going to come across it.
:07:44. > :07:50.Me go back to the question. What do you think? I don't think he is fit
:07:51. > :07:55.to be leader of the free world. He does not have the right temperament,
:07:56. > :07:57.he is too aggressive, continually isolating communities and his
:07:58. > :08:05.relationship with Russia is frankly troubling. In the second row from
:08:06. > :08:10.the back. It is ridiculous to say he is fit to be President, because when
:08:11. > :08:14.you compare Obama's leaving message in his message of hope, aspiration
:08:15. > :08:18.and equality and you compare it to the Trump campaign built on
:08:19. > :08:22.scapegoating minorities, racism and allegations of misogyny, I really
:08:23. > :08:24.think his character which he has shown isn't fit to be President at
:08:25. > :08:30.all. APPLAUSE
:08:31. > :08:35.It is very well for us to sit here and say he is not fit to be
:08:36. > :08:40.President. On the 20th of January, he is going
:08:41. > :08:47.to be the 45th President. We will have to deal with it. And to Paul
:08:48. > :08:52.Mason, you know, these allegations, they are just that. There is no
:08:53. > :08:55.evidence being put forward at all. He has denied the allegations. How
:08:56. > :09:01.do you suggest he proves they are not true. How can you prove they are
:09:02. > :09:06.not true? It is not for him to prove. These allegations have not
:09:07. > :09:09.just been made by BuzzFeed. They have gone into the American
:09:10. > :09:13.intelligence system and they are being assessed by the American
:09:14. > :09:17.intelligence system. It is for Obama, and the boss of the CIA, to
:09:18. > :09:21.tell everyone what they think of them. It is not like someone just
:09:22. > :09:25.sat there and made an allegation. The man who wrote it is an
:09:26. > :09:30.ex-British intelligence officer. We do not employ idiots in MI6. We
:09:31. > :09:35.might have done in the past! But this guy sounds like he knows what
:09:36. > :09:43.he is talking about. Bidden excellent job with the 45 minute
:09:44. > :09:46.dossier, didn't they? -- they did an excellent job with it. That
:09:47. > :09:55.pretended to be a worked through judgment and it wasn't. He doesn't
:09:56. > :10:00.have much time, does he, a couple of days? David Lidington, it is
:10:01. > :10:07.difficult for you because being in the government you have too cosy up
:10:08. > :10:10.to him. The react -- the reality is, as the gentleman said, that Donald
:10:11. > :10:15.Trump, whatever any of us think about him, and he would admit
:10:16. > :10:19.himself in the US that he is something of a Marmite politician.
:10:20. > :10:22.He has huge numbers of fervent supporters and numbers who flocked
:10:23. > :10:29.to the polls to vote for Hillary Clinton to try to defeat him. But he
:10:30. > :10:34.has been elected, fairly, under the democratic constitutional system the
:10:35. > :10:37.United States has. They have, as others have said, other
:10:38. > :10:41.institutions, a Supreme Court, a Congress that has a constitutional
:10:42. > :10:46.role of its own, and that is a matter for the citizens of the
:10:47. > :10:52.United States. Our job in the United Kingdom is, yes, David, to work
:10:53. > :10:57.closely with whoever, Democrat or Republican, is elected by the
:10:58. > :11:02.American people. Because US power and policy matter to us, to our
:11:03. > :11:07.security, it matters to things like counterterrorist policy and
:11:08. > :11:13.cooperation. It matters to the world economy and to trading opportunities
:11:14. > :11:15.around the world. So we need to work to forge a good working relationship
:11:16. > :11:21.with Mr Trump and his administration. It doesn't mean we
:11:22. > :11:24.will agree on everything. There have been numerous occasions when
:11:25. > :11:28.Conservative and Labour Prime Minister is alike have disagreed
:11:29. > :11:32.with a particular American administration. But there has been a
:11:33. > :11:37.constant acceptance of the reality that our national interests involve
:11:38. > :11:41.working closely with whoever is democratically elected Indian
:11:42. > :11:47.knighted States. And do you think we are at the front of the queue or the
:11:48. > :11:53.back, as President Obama has said, in terms of trade agreements? The
:11:54. > :11:57.initial words from Mr Trump are encouraging. And I know from earlier
:11:58. > :12:00.roles of mine in government that the United States is a tough negotiator
:12:01. > :12:05.when it comes to their own economic interests. But let's look for the
:12:06. > :12:14.opportunities. Let's hear from the audience. The woman in the back row.
:12:15. > :12:19.The question was, is he fit, and we don't know if he is fit or not. But
:12:20. > :12:24.a concern is the people he is pointing to advise him. Are they
:12:25. > :12:31.fit? What experience do they have of politics, of running a huge country
:12:32. > :12:38.like the USA? Are you uneasy? Very uneasy. What about you, sir? Whilst
:12:39. > :12:42.I understand he won the election fair and square, he led a campaign
:12:43. > :12:46.in which he said some of the most deplorable things I have heard from
:12:47. > :12:50.a politician. It is ironic that he has gone back on so many promises,
:12:51. > :12:54.watering them down, which shows he is not fit, if he has to go back on
:12:55. > :13:00.his promises. What did you particularly object to? The Muslim
:13:01. > :13:02.ban, and I don't think we should be building walls. We should be
:13:03. > :13:11.building bridges, not walls. APPLAUSE
:13:12. > :13:18.Arron Banks? I think you have to see in the context of the election. The
:13:19. > :13:25.whole US media were against him. Yes, there were times where I think
:13:26. > :13:30.he overstepped the mark, clearly. Where, for you? The Muslim ban. I
:13:31. > :13:36.think that is demonstrably wrong and I would condemn it. And saying it
:13:37. > :13:43.doesn't make him unfit? Don't think it does make him unfit. We have seen
:13:44. > :13:48.some ropey US president, George Bush at the top. OK, maybe he is a bit
:13:49. > :13:52.unfiltered, that might be the description, but often politicians
:13:53. > :14:00.are thinking these things and saying it behind closed doors, and he just
:14:01. > :14:04.comes out and says it. Anybody else? How refreshing it is to have a
:14:05. > :14:09.non-career politician and how refreshing it is to have strong
:14:10. > :14:12.leadership in the west. If he had been our leader, he'd have signed
:14:13. > :14:22.Article 50 before the courts got involved. OK. It might come to a bit
:14:23. > :14:28.of that. Let's go on, because he will be president, well, not quite
:14:29. > :14:31.next week, but almost. Anyway, we will be in Peterborough next week.
:14:32. > :14:38.We will be in London the week after. On the screen is how to apply, if
:14:39. > :14:43.you want to come to Peter Brock or London a fortnight away, and I will
:14:44. > :14:48.give the details at the end. Our second question comes from Natalie
:14:49. > :14:53.Stanley. Is Theresa May wrong to reject the claims made by the
:14:54. > :14:58.British Red Cross at NHS hospitals are facing a humanitarian crisis?
:14:59. > :15:02.The British Red Cross this week saying there is a humanitarian
:15:03. > :15:07.crisis in the NHS and the Prime Minister rejected it. Gisela Stuart.
:15:08. > :15:13.I think humanitarian crisis probably was a phrase we might expect to see
:15:14. > :15:18.in other contexts. What do you mean by that? I associate it with war
:15:19. > :15:24.zones and something more unpredictable. So they were wrong? I
:15:25. > :15:28.would choose that phrase. Last year this time, we had the junior doctors
:15:29. > :15:33.strike. The Tory government has stripped money out of social care.
:15:34. > :15:39.We know that, if you want decent public services, the health sector
:15:40. > :15:43.will be affected by any cutbacks in social care and its knock-on effect,
:15:44. > :15:47.and I would really advise Theresa May to listen very carefully to
:15:48. > :15:51.Simon Stevens. I've worked with him. He understands the health service
:15:52. > :15:57.and politics and how it connects. He knows that just more money isn't the
:15:58. > :15:59.answer and what he asked for was greater coordination, bringing
:16:00. > :16:02.forward the money, and Theresa May would be well advised to listen to
:16:03. > :16:09.his advice. APPLAUSE
:16:10. > :16:14.Of course, when you were running the Vote Leave campaign, you said there
:16:15. > :16:20.would be ?18 billion more for the NHS if you voted out. You stood in
:16:21. > :16:25.front of that bus saying ?350 million a week, double what is being
:16:26. > :16:30.spent. We said we had lost control and, as Vote Leave, we said we would
:16:31. > :16:36.give ?100 million of that to the health service. I still think we
:16:37. > :16:38.should do that. The phrase was, a communitarian crisis is one
:16:39. > :16:45.hospitals in Aleppo are being bombed, but what we are seeing now
:16:46. > :16:50.is hospitals under pressure. -- a humanitarian crisis. It is a mark of
:16:51. > :16:52.the professionalism and hard work of NHS staff that, despite those
:16:53. > :16:57.pressures, we are seeing record numbers of people treated at A and
:16:58. > :17:01.in other parts of the health service, including record numbers
:17:02. > :17:08.being treated today despite those pressures within the four hour time
:17:09. > :17:12.limit, but we made to make sure they take action about this. We continue
:17:13. > :17:17.to direct more money at the NHS. That is what the government is doing
:17:18. > :17:24.and continues to do. We have to make sure that we also are making certain
:17:25. > :17:31.that the best practice that we find in the NHS is replicated and
:17:32. > :17:35.mainstreamed in every trust around the country because, when you look
:17:36. > :17:39.at the pattern at different trusts, you find they often have a very
:17:40. > :17:42.varied record in terms of the quality of service they provide. I
:17:43. > :17:57.think, if we look to the medium-term... No, it's not the ...
:17:58. > :18:02.It's the hospitals' fault? No, the reason people are treated in record
:18:03. > :18:05.numbers is due to the response of listen in professionalism and
:18:06. > :18:09.dedication of NHS staff but, in an organisation as vast as the NHS, NHS
:18:10. > :18:13.professionals themselves say that they can find ways in certain
:18:14. > :18:20.hospitals and they are delivering better quality than other trusts. We
:18:21. > :18:24.had missed Staffordshire -- mid Staffordshire. That will always be
:18:25. > :18:29.true, but what about Simon Stevens, it is stretching it to save the NHS
:18:30. > :18:33.is more than he asked for? Uses a lot of words but one of them wasn't
:18:34. > :18:36.sorry and I think the government should be saying, we are sorry to
:18:37. > :18:41.the people dying on trolleys, because that is where it's at. I
:18:42. > :18:44.don't care whether it is a humanitarian crisis, it's a
:18:45. > :18:49.political crisis and it's a disgrace for a developed country.
:18:50. > :18:53.APPLAUSE 20 hospitals yesterday declared a
:18:54. > :18:59.black alert, the worst thing you can declare. The four hour wait target
:19:00. > :19:04.has not been met since July 20 15. 4 million people waiting for referral
:19:05. > :19:08.for treatment, getting from the appointment to being treated, and
:19:09. > :19:11.ambulance targets haven't been on time for 20 months. A doctor is
:19:12. > :19:16.writing in the Evening Standard tonight that people going having
:19:17. > :19:20.their bed filled and not being able to get back into the bed after a
:19:21. > :19:25.serious operation. We should not reduce it to a single cause, because
:19:26. > :19:29.there are lots of problems in the NHS, ageing, social care, doesn't
:19:30. > :19:33.work, hasn't got enough money, not enough space and time to innovate,
:19:34. > :19:36.and the ageing thing is going to carry on hitting us, but the
:19:37. > :19:42.fundamental thing that lies behind all of this is the lack of money. I
:19:43. > :19:45.don't want to go kind of ping-pong of political points. I've made my
:19:46. > :19:49.political point. I would plead with you to get on the phone to Theresa
:19:50. > :19:55.May and get her and Philip Hammond to simply ring to departments, the
:19:56. > :19:59.health department and the local councils, the DC LGB and they just
:20:00. > :20:04.have say one thing, run a deficit. Please, spend what you need now and
:20:05. > :20:06.you will not be penalised at the end of the year for overspending. That
:20:07. > :20:16.would solve the crisis now. APPLAUSE
:20:17. > :20:20.The woman in pink. What Theresa May and Simon Stevens are bickering,
:20:21. > :20:23.there are people dying with incurable breast cancer, they can't
:20:24. > :20:30.get the support they need, drugs are being blocked, life-saving drugs for
:20:31. > :20:37.cancer, and it seems to me that the government is in denial about the
:20:38. > :20:41.funding needs. I agree to some extent with what Paul is saying
:20:42. > :20:48.about needing more money. That is indubitably true. But just throwing
:20:49. > :20:52.money at the problem will not solve it. The NHS is a monolithic
:20:53. > :20:57.organisation. One size doesn't fit all. It is no good saying, yes,
:20:58. > :21:01.learn best practice from this trust and go to that trust, but you have
:21:02. > :21:06.different populations with different requirements, different needs, and
:21:07. > :21:13.so to try and force the same pattern of behaviour on hospital trusts
:21:14. > :21:21.isn't going to work. You need more trust lower down, trust with the
:21:22. > :21:27.doctors and nurses, who are on the coal face, but, you know, they are
:21:28. > :21:30.not, they are on the ward, but the doctors and nurses and social
:21:31. > :21:34.workers who are with the communities, looking at community
:21:35. > :21:36.hospitals which are closing, where people have to travel greater
:21:37. > :21:41.distances to come to bigger hospitals. Yes, those hospitals have
:21:42. > :21:44.the fancy equipment which is necessary... Are they closing
:21:45. > :21:51.because of funding or another reason? Various reasons, different
:21:52. > :21:55.in different areas. A lot of it is you are saying, it is better that we
:21:56. > :21:59.have this specialised maternity care it, so we are going to close these
:22:00. > :22:05.two cottage hospitals there, but if we could have them both, have it
:22:06. > :22:12.all, you know, Utopia. Let's hear from the woman there. I think a way
:22:13. > :22:16.to get money back to the NHS is to start charging people for not
:22:17. > :22:19.turning up to appointments. I got a text message the other day to say,
:22:20. > :22:24.this is the reminder of my appointment and it costs the NHS
:22:25. > :22:29.?100 for people who don't turn up. Every time I for an appointment,
:22:30. > :22:33.there are always signs to say how many people and turned up but I
:22:34. > :22:38.think it is a disgrace and that is one way for the NHS to get their
:22:39. > :22:47.money back. OK. You, sir, in a blue shirt. Is this a result of five to
:22:48. > :22:51.six years of austerity and tax cuts, the fact we are talking about this
:22:52. > :22:55.now? Shouldn't we, instead of... APPLAUSE
:22:56. > :23:00.Instead of talking about cutting corporation tax, shouldn't we be
:23:01. > :23:05.talking about adding 1p or 2p in the pound to my tax bill that would help
:23:06. > :23:10.to fund the NHS, social care, schools and everything in the public
:23:11. > :23:14.sector? Don't you think, Mr and Mrs politician from whichever party, we
:23:15. > :23:22.have it the public sector to hard over the last six years? Arron
:23:23. > :23:26.Banks. Well, let's start with the principle that most hospitals I have
:23:27. > :23:30.been to, I think are pretty efficiently run, and I don't think
:23:31. > :23:34.it is the people working in the hospitals. There is some top-down
:23:35. > :23:39.management but clearly it is in crisis on funding. There is a lack
:23:40. > :23:42.of money in the NHS and that sits at the heart of the problem for
:23:43. > :23:46.government. It goes to the wider principle of the government should
:23:47. > :23:51.do less and it should do what is really important well. I would agree
:23:52. > :23:57.that there is a humanitarian crisis of whether it is that is a question,
:23:58. > :24:01.but it is definitely a crisis. Unless we put the necessary cash
:24:02. > :24:05.into it, I think it will get worse and worse. Is there any chance you
:24:06. > :24:09.may relent on this business of saying the NHS has got any money --
:24:10. > :24:17.enough money now, we set aside enough? We did put in an extra 400
:24:18. > :24:20.million for particular winter pressures that come up every winter
:24:21. > :24:28.season. But they are clearly not enough. If you look at the sums of
:24:29. > :24:36.money overall you have had in... The raw figures for 2015-16, the NHS
:24:37. > :24:41.budget was 98.1 billion. 2020-21, it will be 119.1 billion. It is going
:24:42. > :24:47.up, and it is continuing we only do that, in response to the gentleman
:24:48. > :24:53.who just spoke, because the economy is continuing to grow and generating
:24:54. > :24:59.the funds that we can distribute to public services, and corporation tax
:25:00. > :25:02.revenue has gone up. There was a request from Simon Stevens for more
:25:03. > :25:06.money in the next two to three years. He asked for it in a
:25:07. > :25:08.Parliamentary committee. You're not giving it, so there is a clay
:25:09. > :25:15.difference between what the expert says and what the politician says.
:25:16. > :25:24.Simon Stevens is independent. The Government made the boss of the NHS
:25:25. > :25:29.an independent body separate from ministers precisely so he could act
:25:30. > :25:34.as an independent advocate. He did. He also Paul, which you didn't say
:25:35. > :25:37.is that when the Government made its announcement about NHS spending, he
:25:38. > :25:41.welcomed that warmly, said that his concerns had been listened to, had
:25:42. > :25:48.asked for the extra spending to be front loaded which is exactly what
:25:49. > :25:51.we have done. If I can just - Monica made an important point about
:25:52. > :25:54.different patterns needed in different parts of the country.
:25:55. > :25:59.Rural and urban, it's going to Sarah vicious it's why the reform plans
:26:00. > :26:03.that are being taken forward within the NHS are being locally driven
:26:04. > :26:08.rather than being imposed top-down. But you know that the NHS and social
:26:09. > :26:12.care work hand in hand. You cannot keep cutting billions of social care
:26:13. > :26:16.in Local Government and then think extra funding in the NHS is
:26:17. > :26:19.sufficient. You cannot cut down training places and then say we
:26:20. > :26:23.haven't got enough nurses and doctors to recruit in there. Actions
:26:24. > :26:27.have consequences. You are quite right, you started to move towards
:26:28. > :26:32.funding the NHS, but, as you're cutting the rest, you are creating a
:26:33. > :26:38.crisis and a long-term position which will just get worse. What are
:26:39. > :26:44.the cuts you are talking about in care in the community, council care,
:26:45. > :26:47.what scale are you talking about? Oh I think it's significant, ?19
:26:48. > :26:51.billion since 2010 taken out and you have cut the training places for
:26:52. > :26:56.staff. The two just will make the situation worse. Also David, you
:26:57. > :27:02.talked about the ?400 million which in the scheme of the NHS is a drop
:27:03. > :27:09.in the ocean. It's a week's worth. Just under a week's worth. The man
:27:10. > :27:16.in orange in the centre, let us hear from you and then woman next to you
:27:17. > :27:20.This crisis isn't new, it comes around like Christmas, ofry year.
:27:21. > :27:22.This Government and successive past Governments have continually failed
:27:23. > :27:26.the British public. APPLAUSE.
:27:27. > :27:31.Action is required. OK. What would you have? More spending? Higher
:27:32. > :27:39.taxes? It's like pouring money at the top of the funnel, are you sure
:27:40. > :27:47.it's going to come out at the bottom and reach where it's needed? The
:27:48. > :27:51.woman next to you? I agree with the woman up there. You can tell me
:27:52. > :27:55.there is a crisis, but actually do something about it. I also think
:27:56. > :27:59.it's not a case of let's throw money at it because that's just quantity
:28:00. > :28:03.of money, where's the quality going, so I also agree with Monica, don't
:28:04. > :28:07.just throw money at the NHS because how long is that going to last until
:28:08. > :28:12.the next crisis? Can I just take you back. I was a Health Minister under
:28:13. > :28:19.Blair. When Blair said we are going to increase the GDP percentage
:28:20. > :28:22.spending, we increased the places, created NHS Direct and changed the
:28:23. > :28:26.model and you had a period of probably about ten years when the
:28:27. > :28:31.NHS was not the topic of Prime Minister's Question Time and it has
:28:32. > :28:35.returned to that topic because it's deteriorating again.
:28:36. > :28:40.APPLAUSE. I can remember news headlines when
:28:41. > :28:44.you were with Tony Blair as a Health Minister visiting a big hospital
:28:45. > :28:52.with crowds of angry patients outside. There have been crises,
:28:53. > :28:56.pressures under Governments of all parties, but it's got to be a
:28:57. > :28:59.combination of the increased spending that does depend on the
:29:00. > :29:06.productivity and growth of the economy at the end, but also a
:29:07. > :29:11.flexible, locally driven approach to local reforms and it will need some
:29:12. > :29:16.reconfiguration of services in some areas. My area, we used to have
:29:17. > :29:21.cardiac and stroke unit treatments at both the local hospitals. Now
:29:22. > :29:27.they've been closed, they have been centralised at one of the hospitals.
:29:28. > :29:33.My constituency hospital lost out and I was quite miffed about that,
:29:34. > :29:36.to put it mildly. Actually, the outcomes for patients from having
:29:37. > :29:43.specialist stroke and cardiac units... David, if you start... More
:29:44. > :29:49.people are living and making complete recoveries from strokes so
:29:50. > :29:52.we shouldn't decry... So all these complaints are without any basis?
:29:53. > :29:58.No, they are not. There is a ground for complaint?
:29:59. > :30:05.Where there are pressures they have to be addressed.
:30:06. > :30:10.And where there are cases of bad treatment, which in an NHS treating
:30:11. > :30:15.millions every day, there are bound to be some, then those need to be
:30:16. > :30:20.investigated. Bad treatment has not been in the headlines this week. It
:30:21. > :30:25.is absence of treatment, because of absence of money. What is it about
:30:26. > :30:25.the evidence that you refuse to confront?
:30:26. > :30:35.APPLAUSE That money is needed to train more
:30:36. > :30:40.people. We need more radiographers, more
:30:41. > :30:44.midwives, more nurses, we need more assistant nurses, what used to be
:30:45. > :30:49.state enrolled nurses. We need more people actually there, and then you
:30:50. > :30:54.could keep the smaller units going. Yes, have a really skilled people at
:30:55. > :31:01.the big, fancy, flashy places, but you need the filtration. This
:31:02. > :31:05.business about, we have a responsibility, Jeremy Hunt was
:31:06. > :31:10.saying, you know, you should not just trail to A if your perch your
:31:11. > :31:16.finger, but we need there to be more people there who are trained to say,
:31:17. > :31:23.right, you are really badly hurt. Are you shocked by the way things
:31:24. > :31:30.are at the moment? I am shocked. You think there is a genuine public
:31:31. > :31:33.worry? Arron Banks. I am a successful businessman. If you
:31:34. > :31:38.starve a business of working capital and cash, you end up making bad
:31:39. > :31:43.decisions for the wrong reasons. I think we are in danger where it is
:31:44. > :31:47.being starved for cash. You have enough money to park ?2 billion in
:31:48. > :31:52.the World Bank pending the fact that we can't spend enough money quickly
:31:53. > :31:57.enough on the aid budget, but we are starving the NHS of cash. We have to
:31:58. > :32:02.start working out our priorities. Is it a priority to spend 12 billion
:32:03. > :32:05.that is misappropriated by foreign governments, or spend money on the
:32:06. > :32:11.NHS for people in this country? APPLAUSE
:32:12. > :32:18.Natalie, who asked the question, what do you make of the answers?
:32:19. > :32:23.I think everybody did not answer the question. My question was is she
:32:24. > :32:27.wrong to reject the claims, and she is, in my opinion. We can all get
:32:28. > :32:32.hung up on the semantics and the wording, is it a humanitarian
:32:33. > :32:39.crisis, but it is a crisis, whatever you put before that word. I would
:32:40. > :32:43.argue that yes, Syria and Aleppo is a humanitarian crisis, but are those
:32:44. > :32:47.people suffering any greater than the person lying on a bed in a
:32:48. > :32:53.hospital corridor, dying, without the treatment they require? Is there
:32:54. > :32:59.suffering any less? There is no hierarchy of suffering. The fact is,
:33:00. > :33:02.it needs to be sorted. I have children and a grandparent who rely
:33:03. > :33:07.on the NHS, and the fact that they do not receive the care they need in
:33:08. > :33:08.a timely manner angers me, to be fair.
:33:09. > :33:19.APPLAUSE I work with people who rely heavily
:33:20. > :33:24.on health and social and there is a crisis.
:33:25. > :33:29.Those sort of people don't have a luxury of time to sit in A waiting
:33:30. > :33:35.to be seen. I think we should be moving on to work together. This is
:33:36. > :33:39.a clarion call for everyone to work together to try and transform the
:33:40. > :33:43.services. The government has a five-year plan. Frankly, we don't
:33:44. > :33:51.have time for that. Something needs to be downright now for these
:33:52. > :33:54.people. A last word to you, David. I describe both how the money is
:33:55. > :34:00.going, but also in response to the lady in the front row and to Monica,
:34:01. > :34:08.look at the figures. There are now nearly 11,500 more doctors than in
:34:09. > :34:13.2010, nearly 5000 more nurses and midwives, and those NHS staff are
:34:14. > :34:16.treating more people, year-on-year, for different conditions than they
:34:17. > :34:21.used to. That is a tribute to them, and they are doing it because the
:34:22. > :34:28.money is being put in. I agree about the need to provide a means at A
:34:29. > :34:32.for differentiating between those who do need the Accident Emergency
:34:33. > :34:37.service and those who need some other kind of treatment or advice.
:34:38. > :34:42.There are some NHS areas that are doing that effectively. I do think
:34:43. > :34:46.there are some parts of the country that can learn from success
:34:47. > :34:51.elsewhere. The NHS itself is saying they think perhaps 30% of people who
:34:52. > :34:57.go to A would be better going through some of -- some other path.
:34:58. > :35:02.That seems true from international evidence of other industrialised
:35:03. > :35:06.countries. I can't quite get a handle on whether you are saying
:35:07. > :35:09.that the complaints here and the things Jeremy Corbyn said in the
:35:10. > :35:15.House of Commons are justified, or whether it is making politics
:35:16. > :35:19.against your government? I think it is perfectly accurate to say that
:35:20. > :35:22.the NHS at the moment is experiencing some severe pressures.
:35:23. > :35:28.Those are partly the short-term ones of winter, which is always worse,
:35:29. > :35:30.but this winter is turning out to be particularly bad with some
:35:31. > :35:38.persistent viruses that are taking more people to hospitals. But also,
:35:39. > :35:43.there is what Arron and Monica talked about, the fact that we have
:35:44. > :35:48.an ageing population and therefore there will be an increase in demand.
:35:49. > :35:51.It's great, people are surviving, living for longer, living
:35:52. > :35:56.independently for longer, just as it is great that medical science is
:35:57. > :36:05.producing more drugs and treatment. The way we keep up with it is to
:36:06. > :36:09.continue to spend more, which this government is committed to do, but
:36:10. > :36:14.which depends absolutely on the health and vigour of our economy. It
:36:15. > :36:19.is to secure reforms that make sure the best, most successful practices
:36:20. > :36:23.are followed, and it is to integrate social care and health care. You
:36:24. > :36:28.keep saying the economy is going very well, so the man who said he
:36:29. > :36:35.would pay an extra 2p on his income tax... The economy is continuing to
:36:36. > :36:40.grow, but this is a world in which there are many economic risks. It is
:36:41. > :36:44.a world in which we are still to pay off the whole of the deficit we
:36:45. > :36:52.inherited. We are about two thirds of the way on that task as it is. So
:36:53. > :37:02.you can never be complacent. That deficit continues to grow. You have
:37:03. > :37:03.got the deficit down by destroying the NHS. Thank you!
:37:04. > :37:12.APPLAUSE No, we got the deficit down while we
:37:13. > :37:17.have increased spending on the NHS year-on-year.
:37:18. > :37:22.Who are you shaking your head at? The Jeremy Corbyn lookalike on the.
:37:23. > :37:28.I hope Jeremy Corbyn is not watching. I would not want him to be
:37:29. > :37:35.insulted that he looks like me. I just think that what we really need
:37:36. > :37:40.to look at... I'm a Conservative, but I believe we need to look at
:37:41. > :37:44.huge reforms within the NHS to make it sustainable. Because to say each
:37:45. > :37:48.year we will give an extra 10 billion, all of this extra money,
:37:49. > :37:52.don't we actually need to start having a proper debate about
:37:53. > :37:58.structural reforms towards health in this country? I'm sorry to those
:37:59. > :38:03.with your hands up, but we have to go on because we have 20 minutes
:38:04. > :38:08.left, and a question from that Peters. Is restricted access to the
:38:09. > :38:20.single market a price worth paying for drastically reducing
:38:21. > :38:27.immigration? I would come to you, David, but you have been speaking a
:38:28. > :38:30.lot. Paul Mason. I want us to have the maximum possible access to the
:38:31. > :38:34.single market because although I thought a lot of what the Treasury
:38:35. > :38:38.and the Bank of England said was politically manipulated during the
:38:39. > :38:42.Brexit debate, I voted reluctant Remain. I wanted nothing to do with
:38:43. > :38:47.the way George Osborne manipulated those reports. But what the Bank of
:38:48. > :38:52.England said is that we would have a hard Brexit in a chaotic Brexit,
:38:53. > :38:57.which is what the former ambassador to Europe feared when he resigned.
:38:58. > :39:01.If we have a chaotic Brexit, we will be wiping out all of the growth we
:39:02. > :39:06.have made in the last ten years. It will be a disaster. So I want the
:39:07. > :39:11.maximum continuity. I think we have to accept the Brexit vote. We are
:39:12. > :39:16.leaving Europe. Get over the denial, find some positivity in it, even if
:39:17. > :39:20.you didn't like it. That is true. We start with the economy and then we
:39:21. > :39:24.say to people who voted Brexit because they don't like migration,
:39:25. > :39:28.we will do as much as we can to address the problem is that you are
:39:29. > :39:32.bothered about. But if you think Britain is suddenly going to become
:39:33. > :39:36.Trump style closed to foreigners, it can't be. That also would be very
:39:37. > :39:40.bad for our economy. I want to get away with the minimum amount of
:39:41. > :39:46.change to free movement that we need really to be able to win back
:39:47. > :39:50.consent among the British people for an open and high migration and
:39:51. > :39:52.highly tolerant economy, such as the one I think all of us really want.
:39:53. > :40:04.APPLAUSE What did Jeremy Corbyn, who you
:40:05. > :40:09.support and admire, mean when he said this week that the Labour Party
:40:10. > :40:13.is not wedded to freedom of movement as a point of principle, but nor do
:40:14. > :40:20.we rule it out? I can't make head or tail of that.
:40:21. > :40:25.It's simple. Simple! Many in our party and who support us are wedded
:40:26. > :40:29.to it as aprons are poor. It is a principle of the European Union.
:40:30. > :40:33.Once you are outside the European Union, the have to decide if you're
:40:34. > :40:37.going to fight for it forever. Corbyn and the people around him are
:40:38. > :40:41.saying, once we go to negotiations, we will not be saying that our red
:40:42. > :40:48.line is freedom of movement. It is not a principle of socialism, it is
:40:49. > :40:53.part of a treaty we signed. However, because of Corbyn's position, and my
:40:54. > :40:58.position, the economy comes first. I am willing to layout a series of
:40:59. > :41:03.things we would try and do on migration, maybe free movement above
:41:04. > :41:06.a certain salary, maybe for public sector only. I want a debate about
:41:07. > :41:12.this because many people voted against it. A lot of people who
:41:13. > :41:17.supported Arron's party. I want to talk to them. They have a duty to be
:41:18. > :41:21.listened to. But when we go to negotiations, we have to start from
:41:22. > :41:25.the economy, get what we can to satisfy the British people and
:41:26. > :41:29.reassure them on migration. And that means, to be honest, on the day we
:41:30. > :41:35.leave, free movement as we know it will cease. During the whole
:41:36. > :41:40.campaign there were two things which both sides absolutely agreed on, and
:41:41. > :41:45.that was, if we vote leave, we will leave the single market. No, they
:41:46. > :41:50.didn't. I didn't agree with it and I was on a side, so how can you say
:41:51. > :42:03.that? People voted on what the official side said. No, they didn't.
:42:04. > :42:08.What I'm saying is that you are deluding the audience deliberately.
:42:09. > :42:19.Let the audience decide whether they are being deluded. Both sides said a
:42:20. > :42:22.vote to leave, whether you want on the Remain scythe or believes macro
:42:23. > :42:26.side, the campaign said that would mean leaving the single market. The
:42:27. > :42:29.single market is a trading arrangement of 31 countries which
:42:30. > :42:35.say you have to comply with the same set of laws, you have free movement
:42:36. > :42:40.of people, money, capital and services, and you also won't have
:42:41. > :42:45.control over your borders. So the official vote Leave campaign said we
:42:46. > :42:50.want to take control of our borders, our trade policy and our laws. If we
:42:51. > :42:53.now say that Brexit means Brexit, you cannot remain a member of the
:42:54. > :42:58.single market and not have control over your borders, have control over
:42:59. > :43:09.your laws and control over your trade. You can. Isolating ourselves
:43:10. > :43:13.from the single market might not matter. Over half of immigration
:43:14. > :43:17.into this country comes from outside the EU, so Brexit, no Brexit, single
:43:18. > :43:23.market, no single market, these people will still come in. No one
:43:24. > :43:27.from the Leave side, not even Nigel Farage and Arron Banks have said
:43:28. > :43:32.they will stop migration altogether. We will still have migration from
:43:33. > :43:38.the EU, even if it is vetted. But we risk isolating ourselves from our
:43:39. > :43:42.biggest trading block. For me, for relatively little gain. Even if you
:43:43. > :43:46.do one less migration, more will still come from outside. For me,
:43:47. > :43:51.Britain is on the verge of cutting off its nose to spite its face. For
:43:52. > :43:59.me, we are playing a very dicey game. You are shaking your head. I
:44:00. > :44:06.was an ardent Remainer and I led one of the teams here in Solihull. I
:44:07. > :44:09.realise now that we are out, OK. The point is, I think there is a fiction
:44:10. > :44:16.being created between membership and access. The United States, China
:44:17. > :44:23.have access to the single market yet are not wedded to the free movement
:44:24. > :44:28.principles. We can still have access and yet have control of our borders.
:44:29. > :44:32.This fiction that is being created by the EU is going to cause problems
:44:33. > :44:38.when we get to the negotiating table in March. David Lidington, when you
:44:39. > :44:43.were working with David Cameron in the run-up, you said these trade
:44:44. > :44:48.agreements were going to take six, seven, eight years and counting. It
:44:49. > :45:00.is massive, what is at risk. Do you still take that view?
:45:01. > :45:06.I'm with the gentleman in the blue jumper. I campaigned very hard for a
:45:07. > :45:09.remain vote. I was hugely disappointed by the result. But if
:45:10. > :45:17.you call yourself a democrat, you have to accept that result. What we
:45:18. > :45:24.now have to do as a Government, as a country, is to negotiate hard for
:45:25. > :45:29.the best possible deal for people of Britain but also part of our
:45:30. > :45:34.argument saying we want there to continue to be a really close
:45:35. > :45:39.working partnership between the UK and what will continue to be our
:45:40. > :45:48.closest neighbours amongst the European countries. Now, part of
:45:49. > :45:51.that should, in my view, involve as much, not just access to, but
:45:52. > :45:56.freedom to operate within the European market for British
:45:57. > :45:59.companies and, for that to happen on a resick Rick Al basis for European
:46:00. > :46:04.countries here as well, I think it was also clear from the referendum
:46:05. > :46:09.that very many people who voted to leave did so thinking in terms of
:46:10. > :46:13.the immigration debate and trying to re-establish national immigration
:46:14. > :46:16.control. That's what I found on the doorstep when talking to leave
:46:17. > :46:23.voters again and again. I think it's clear from the result that freedom
:46:24. > :46:29.of movement as it currently exists cannot continue as before. But
:46:30. > :46:34.again, we need to find a way that also respects the rights of the
:46:35. > :46:38.European citizens who've come here, lived here lawfully, worked, lived
:46:39. > :46:41.and paid taxes and doing a job their employers value, and the rights of
:46:42. > :46:45.British people living in the other countries as well.
:46:46. > :46:50.Aaron Banks? Of course every country in the world
:46:51. > :46:56.has access to the single market. It's a kind of fallacy. In terms of
:46:57. > :47:00.the actual single market, I think you mentioned the control of
:47:01. > :47:03.immigration, the fact that the Government's utterly failed to
:47:04. > :47:08.control non-EU immigration is not a reason not to do it. I mean, you
:47:09. > :47:12.have rules, you have regulations. I mean, the idea that Theresa May, by
:47:13. > :47:16.the way, is going to do a deal with Europe, is laughable. David Cameron
:47:17. > :47:21.went to do a deal, came back with absolutely nothing, I mean
:47:22. > :47:24.absolutely nothing! And pushed us into a referendum.
:47:25. > :47:29.Yes, well I'm sorry you are against democratic votes, but that's the way
:47:30. > :47:38.it goes. But the fact of the matter is, you've got Marine Le Pen being
:47:39. > :47:45.elected, Gert Vealeders and the EU hasn't budged an inch. This idea
:47:46. > :47:49.there is going to be negotiations, it's laughable. So, you know, you
:47:50. > :47:51.are saying we are going to get a wonderful deal, we'll do the best,
:47:52. > :47:54.there is no doing the best, it is what it is, we have to leave the
:47:55. > :48:00.single market and trade with the rest of the world.
:48:01. > :48:07.APPLAUSE. You? Brexit means Brexit and I think
:48:08. > :48:12.I agree with Gisela that there are two parties in this negotiation and
:48:13. > :48:16.Aaron's just picked up on the point that if the EU's position would be
:48:17. > :48:20.if we want to trade with them, we have to apply with, or comply with
:48:21. > :48:25.their rules and regulations and they are probably not going to budge. Is
:48:26. > :48:28.the rather than have this ongoing debate about hard Brexit, it's not
:48:29. > :48:33.our choice. Ultimately, it will be the EU, whether we have a hard
:48:34. > :48:39.Brexit or soft Brexit because of their rules and regulations. Now we
:48:40. > :48:42.voted on immigration, to get our laws back into our country and, on
:48:43. > :48:46.that basis, if that is going to happen, by definition, we are going
:48:47. > :48:49.to be outside of the rules and regulations and therefore we need
:48:50. > :48:57.the trade agreements to be in place when we do leave.
:48:58. > :49:03.Monica? Coming back to the question of restricted access, is it a price
:49:04. > :49:07.worth do paying to reduce immigration. I think that we should
:49:08. > :49:14.not be looking to reduce immigration. From the perspective of
:49:15. > :49:19.the sector in which I work, which is the university sector, research,
:49:20. > :49:25.innovation, we need people coming to us from Europe, from America, from
:49:26. > :49:30.China, from the whole world, because we don't have enough skilled people
:49:31. > :49:36.in this country to fill the jobs that we need. There are not enough
:49:37. > :49:41.engineers being trained in the whole of Europe to actually fill the
:49:42. > :49:46.engineering jobs that are required. There simply aren't enough. And so
:49:47. > :49:50.if we restrict people coming into this country, we are going to
:49:51. > :49:54.restrict the people who're working and paying taxes and helping to
:49:55. > :49:59.build our economy, helping to innovate and helping to design. We
:50:00. > :50:05.are also going to restrict our own people who want to travel abroad,
:50:06. > :50:09.travel to America, travel to other countries within the EU and beyond,
:50:10. > :50:13.we are preventing them from having the opportunity to do that, learn
:50:14. > :50:17.new skills and then bring them back to this country. Very briefly, are
:50:18. > :50:21.you reconciled? APPLAUSE.
:50:22. > :50:29.Are you reconciled to the Brexit vote? I am not reconciled. I'm a
:50:30. > :50:34.good democrat but I'm completely unreconciled, I've felt sick every
:50:35. > :50:44.day since I woke up on June 24th. APPLAUSE.
:50:45. > :50:46.It's funny because I've had a sense of liberation every day since the
:50:47. > :50:51.vote so there we go. APPLAUSE.
:50:52. > :50:56.All right. You want another referendum? Sorry? Do you want
:50:57. > :51:00.another referendum. Have another go. I would like one, yes, because I
:51:01. > :51:03.don't believe that we were given if correct information at the time --
:51:04. > :51:10.the correct information at the time. APPLAUSE.
:51:11. > :51:16.I don't want to be accused of being, you know, a Remaining moaner or
:51:17. > :51:21.whatever, but I feel that at the time we were not given... Sounded
:51:22. > :51:25.like one! I'm not moaning, I'm making a statement. We have five
:51:26. > :51:29.minutes left. I would like to take one more question which came up this
:51:30. > :51:34.week and I think we have just got five minutes to talk about it, a
:51:35. > :51:40.question from Claire Rex? Should there be a maximum wage cap? Should
:51:41. > :51:45.there be a cap on wage salaries as was being talked about by Labour?
:51:46. > :51:48.Paul Mason? Yes, there should be but it won't solve the problem on its
:51:49. > :51:53.own of what we are trying to do here. We've got a situation in the
:51:54. > :51:57.world, not just in Britain, where the rich get richer because they're
:51:58. > :52:01.able to use their assets which rise in value in a way that ordinary
:52:02. > :52:07.people's assets which is a house you ways basically don't own and a car
:52:08. > :52:14.you basically don't own just can't. Now, taxation as has to change. Big
:52:15. > :52:17.official bodies like the OECD think-tank based in pairs well
:52:18. > :52:22.resourced are coming around to the idea that we have to do something,
:52:23. > :52:24.otherwise we'll end up with Downton Abbey-style levels of inequality and
:52:25. > :52:30.it's not just about how much money you have in the bank, it's about the
:52:31. > :52:34.life chances of your children. If you can't afford private school or
:52:35. > :52:38.private medicine when the state system is falling apart because the
:52:39. > :52:43.rich are not paying their taxes, there becomes a social apartheid. So
:52:44. > :52:47.yes I would like to see a 20 times cap from the lowest to the highest.
:52:48. > :52:52.But the average rich person knows how to get around that. You know,
:52:53. > :52:56.David Cameron's dad had all these off shore accounts and all of that,
:52:57. > :53:03.they know how to get around it so we need to close down the tax havens.
:53:04. > :53:10.All right. Aaron Banks? In a system where 1% of the population owns 50%
:53:11. > :53:15.of the the wealth of the country is not capitalism, it's been replaced
:53:16. > :53:18.by something more sinister. I find myself agreeing with Paul but I
:53:19. > :53:26.don't agree the cap is the right way of dealing with it. Some sort of
:53:27. > :53:30.aggressive tax system that basically penalises what I would call unearned
:53:31. > :53:36.wealth that hasn't been earned through the merit of what you are
:53:37. > :53:40.doing seems to be to me wholly sensible. It's worse in the States
:53:41. > :53:43.although they have learnt how to give money more effectively than in
:53:44. > :53:48.this country. I don't agree with the wage cap but I do think there has to
:53:49. > :53:53.be some fundamental rethinking of capitalism, how it works and this
:53:54. > :53:58.kind of corporatism that's kind of replaced it that's insidious and
:53:59. > :54:04.very dangerous. David Lidington? The answer to the questioner was no, we
:54:05. > :54:10.have tried in the '70s in particular to put caps and regulations on
:54:11. > :54:17.wages. It didn't work. But I do think there is a genuine issue
:54:18. > :54:20.behind that question. For once, and I did agree with partly with what
:54:21. > :54:24.Paul said, because I think there is a need for action on tax havens.
:54:25. > :54:29.Let's not kid ourselves that that can be done in one country, that
:54:30. > :54:35.needs global agreement when money can be moved around on the click of
:54:36. > :54:38.a mouse. I think that we do need to have greater transparency from
:54:39. > :54:43.companies about what they're paying the top people and I do think that
:54:44. > :54:47.shareholders, particularly corporate shareholders, need to hold the high
:54:48. > :54:53.paid to account. What narks a lot of people is, when you see a company
:54:54. > :54:57.doing really badly, yet the money paid out to the bosses of that
:54:58. > :55:05.company seem Toscary on going up year on year. Did you support David
:55:06. > :55:12.Cameron's idea of a 10-1 ratio from top-to-bottom, were you behind that?
:55:13. > :55:18.It wasn't my idea, but I agreed with it, yes. So why didn't it hatch?
:55:19. > :55:22.Because we were not saying that that would be something imposed by law,
:55:23. > :55:27.but it should be imposed by way of policies. He's in charge of the
:55:28. > :55:32.Public Services. Public Services have a lot of autonomy. The other
:55:33. > :55:35.thing that I want to say in response to what Paul and Monica said is
:55:36. > :55:41.that, if you actually look pat what's happening in the UK at the
:55:42. > :55:47.moment, the richest 1% are paying 27% of income tax at the moment, the
:55:48. > :55:53.highest share that there's ever been paid by that top 1%. That's
:55:54. > :55:58.irrelevant. And we need to maintain a tax regime that ensures people do
:55:59. > :56:06.pay their fair whack in terms of tax and don't try and squirrel it away.
:56:07. > :56:10.I agree about progressive taxation. I don't think a wage cap is
:56:11. > :56:14.workable. I think what narks people is when they see great big
:56:15. > :56:20.corporations like Amazon and Google getting away with paying no tax in
:56:21. > :56:24.this country or hardly any tax... APPLAUSE.
:56:25. > :56:28.Unfor Natalie, if you are wealthy, you can employ a train of
:56:29. > :56:33.accountants and tax people who'll explain how you can get around the
:56:34. > :56:40.tax laws. I think we really have to go for fair taxation, fair pay, fair
:56:41. > :56:45.taxation and make sure it's implemented. Jeremy Corbyn says he'd
:56:46. > :56:50.like a high earnings cap and some say it doesn't make sense. Which
:56:51. > :56:53.side are you on? The last Labour Government introduced the minimum
:56:54. > :56:57.wage which they said always better off in work than out. We have not
:56:58. > :57:01.kept up-to-date with increasing that minimum wage to not reduce the gap
:57:02. > :57:05.and you have a progressive tax system on top of that. That is the
:57:06. > :57:10.answer to reduce the inequality rather than just having the top
:57:11. > :57:18.down... We have raised that before. We have got to stop, our time is up.
:57:19. > :57:26.We only have an hour. Apologies to those who had their hands up.
:57:27. > :57:28.We're in Peterborough next week with broadcaster Piers Morgan
:57:29. > :57:31.and the American novelist, Lionel Shriver among our panellists.
:57:32. > :57:38.To come and take part in our audience in Peterborough
:57:39. > :57:41.or London, go to our website, or call 0330 123 99 88.
:57:42. > :57:45.If you are listening tonight on Radio 5 live, the debate goes
:57:46. > :58:01.For us here, it's my pleasure to thank you all very much for coming
:58:02. > :58:05.on to the panel, to thank you for coming here to Solihull to take
:58:06. > :58:36.part. Until next Thursday from Question Time, good night.
:58:37. > :58:39.That I will faithfully execute the Office...
:58:40. > :58:43.And will to the best of my ability...
:58:44. > :58:48.The Constitution of the United States...