:00:00. > :00:14.Welcome to Question Time. Tonight we're in Peterbrough.
:00:15. > :00:18.The Conservative Transport Secretary, Chris Grayling.
:00:19. > :00:21.The Shadow Foreign Secretary, Labour's Emily Thornberry.
:00:22. > :00:24.For the Liberal Democrats, Alistair Carmichael,
:00:25. > :00:26.former Scottish Secretary in the coalition government.
:00:27. > :00:28.The TV presenter and Celebrity Apprentice
:00:29. > :00:32.friend of Donald Trump, Piers Morgan.
:00:33. > :00:33.And the novelist, author of, among other books,
:00:34. > :00:52.'We Need To talk About Kevin', Lionel Shriver.
:00:53. > :00:54.As ever, you can join the debate on Facebook,
:00:55. > :01:15.We had the Prime Minister's speech two days ago about Brexit, and we
:01:16. > :01:21.have had a reaction from Europe, which leads to how a first question
:01:22. > :01:27.from Lynn Walker. If the referendum was rerun tomorrow, what do you
:01:28. > :01:32.think the outcome would be? Alistair Carmichael. Well, we did not make a
:01:33. > :01:37.particularly good job of predicting the outcome last time, so forgive me
:01:38. > :01:42.if we don't predict it this time. First of all, it is not going to be
:01:43. > :01:46.run again tomorrow. But I think there is an issue here, which is
:01:47. > :01:52.that of those people who voted to leave, or to remain, there was a
:01:53. > :01:57.great deal, a great lack of clarity about what was on offer. I think on
:01:58. > :02:02.Tuesday this week it suddenly became a great deal clearer what was on
:02:03. > :02:07.offer. Jeremy Corbyn and the Labour Party, remarkably, say it is not a
:02:08. > :02:11.hard Brexit. If leaving the single market, leaving the customs union,
:02:12. > :02:16.is not a hard Brexit, if walking away from that without a deal is not
:02:17. > :02:21.a hard Brexit, then I don't really know what does. You are not asked to
:02:22. > :02:26.be an expert but in the light of what has happened since, will people
:02:27. > :02:31.be thinking again? What needs to happen if we need to bring back the
:02:32. > :02:35.52 and the 40 together and bring a degree of unity back to our country,
:02:36. > :02:39.once we know actually what the shape of the deal with the European Union,
:02:40. > :02:43.an enormously important trading market, is going to be, at that
:02:44. > :02:47.point, this being a process that started with the will of the people
:02:48. > :02:52.in a referendum, should be concluded with the will of the people in a
:02:53. > :02:59.referendum, once we know what it's going to be. Piers Morgan. I voted
:03:00. > :03:03.Remainer, cards on the table, so I'm not particularly happy that we are
:03:04. > :03:07.where we are, but we are where we are. And the whole point of
:03:08. > :03:10.democracy in a freezer Sidey like ours is that when you go and vote,
:03:11. > :03:17.it really matters, it's incredibly important how you vote in elections
:03:18. > :03:22.and referendums. -- in a free society like ours. The point about a
:03:23. > :03:26.second referendum, this was the second referendum. We have the first
:03:27. > :03:30.in the mid-70s and voted to go into Europe. We have now had another one
:03:31. > :03:35.to leave Europe. I don't agree with it but we are where we are. So the
:03:36. > :03:38.answer to your question should be, don't ask the question. We're not
:03:39. > :03:43.going to have another referendum. I say that with great respect, I have
:03:44. > :03:48.so many people I know, like with Trump and America, which we will
:03:49. > :03:53.come to, this gnashing and wailing and weeping and demands to have
:03:54. > :03:57.another election in America, another referendum here because we didn't
:03:58. > :03:59.get the result we wanted, is frankly pathetic. We've all got to grow up.
:04:00. > :04:08.APPLAUSE Lynn Walker, you asked the question.
:04:09. > :04:14.Is it your view that we should grow up, or that people would vote
:04:15. > :04:17.differently? I voted Remainer. I am not so much asking for a second
:04:18. > :04:21.referendum, more thinking that I think a lot of people voted on one
:04:22. > :04:25.issue. If they actually looked now at the whole picture and what they
:04:26. > :04:32.have been told since, some people might have voted differently. What
:04:33. > :04:36.one issue? Immigration. According to the Prime Minister there were loads
:04:37. > :04:40.of issues, when she spoke on Tuesday, she said people voted for a
:04:41. > :04:45.different kind of Britain, this, that and the other. In this area
:04:46. > :04:50.that was the major issue. Chris Grayling. It wasn't purely about
:04:51. > :04:54.immigration, it was about the ability to take our own decisions. I
:04:55. > :04:58.campaigned for Brexit, I believed we should leave. The overwhelming
:04:59. > :05:02.response from people was that we want to be able to take our own
:05:03. > :05:06.decisions. Immigration was a big area where that was the case. There
:05:07. > :05:09.is a broad sense in this country that immigration levels were too
:05:10. > :05:13.high, people want to manage the number of people who come in the
:05:14. > :05:17.future. Not to become a closed door nation, but have some degree of
:05:18. > :05:22.control, to limit and set limits on the number of people who come and
:05:23. > :05:25.live and work here. But it was also about the ability to take our own
:05:26. > :05:29.decisions. As an elected representative, standing on your
:05:30. > :05:32.doorstep, saying, please vote for my party, and you say that you don't
:05:33. > :05:37.think immigration is under control, what am I going to do about it, if
:05:38. > :05:41.my response is, I have no power to restrict it because as part of the
:05:42. > :05:45.European Union we have to accept full freedom of movement, you will
:05:46. > :05:50.say, that is not good enough. I want you, as my elected representative,
:05:51. > :05:52.to do what I want. We couldn't, and people wanted that control back.
:05:53. > :05:58.APPLAUSE Labour seems to be in some doubt
:05:59. > :06:02.about whether it is even going to vote for Article 50.
:06:03. > :06:06.Where do you stand on that? You're Business Secretary said he will not
:06:07. > :06:11.vote for Article 50. You are falling apart. Let's take this in stages.
:06:12. > :06:15.First, the government has had to be brought to court to ensure that
:06:16. > :06:21.Parliament has a vote on Article 50. So we are waiting for the court
:06:22. > :06:23.decision. If the government loses it, the government will put
:06:24. > :06:30.legislation before Parliament, and then Parliament will need to decide.
:06:31. > :06:34.Personally, my constituency voted overwhelmingly to remain, as did I.
:06:35. > :06:38.But I am a national politician, Shadow Foreign Secretary, and it is
:06:39. > :06:42.my duty to do as instructed by the British public. The public have said
:06:43. > :06:46.we want to leave the European Union and my job is to make sure we get as
:06:47. > :06:52.good a deal as possible for Britain. That means looking after our economy
:06:53. > :06:56.and our jobs first. What about your Business Secretary saying he won't
:06:57. > :07:00.vote for it? I haven't spoken for him so I don't know. I can
:07:01. > :07:05.understand why some people feel... It fits very different and the --
:07:06. > :07:08.difficult league, because we have this representative democracy and
:07:09. > :07:13.many people have constituencies which overwhelmingly voted to
:07:14. > :07:16.remain, and yet the result of the referendum is to leave. Many people
:07:17. > :07:21.will find it difficult to decide who are they representing, their
:07:22. > :07:25.immediate constituencies, or the nation? Remember, there was a Tory
:07:26. > :07:29.MP who voted to leave, and he said he did not like the way in which the
:07:30. > :07:33.Tory party were going ahead with leaving the European Union, so he
:07:34. > :07:37.stood down and caused a by-election. This is an issue for MPs to wrestle
:07:38. > :07:42.with, but the Labour Party will not be getting in the way of Brexit. We
:07:43. > :07:45.will vote for Brexit to be triggered, and that is how it is
:07:46. > :07:52.going to be, but we need to make sure we get a good deal. In the
:07:53. > :07:56.fourth row. Interesting to hear a couple of the comments, especially
:07:57. > :08:02.the second referendum suggestion. I don't think people were particularly
:08:03. > :08:06.unsure what we were voting for. I remember the issue of the single
:08:07. > :08:11.market being brought up clearly by a number of people, including Cameron,
:08:12. > :08:16.Osborne... All the time. And then they pretend we have never brought
:08:17. > :08:20.it up before. It was clear. Piers Morgan, you are incorrect, we never
:08:21. > :08:26.voted to join the EC. We were put into it without a vote. Leaving that
:08:27. > :08:31.aside, do you think the outcome would be different if it was rerun?
:08:32. > :08:36.No, I don't think so. I think the people who voted to leave are
:08:37. > :08:41.comfortable with their decision. I entirely agree with you. I am fairly
:08:42. > :08:47.confident that it would end up being 52 - 48 again. I have yet to speak
:08:48. > :08:52.to any Brit who voted in the referendum who would have changed
:08:53. > :08:58.their mind. The population is simply entrenched. It has become very
:08:59. > :09:05.bitter, I am afraid. But nobody has changed anybody's mind. I think one
:09:06. > :09:10.of the reasons, the woman over here said there was always one reason
:09:11. > :09:14.that people voted one way or the other, but they were different. I
:09:15. > :09:18.think they were all the same. I think that it had to do with a gut
:09:19. > :09:22.feeling about the EU that was emotional and did not have to do
:09:23. > :09:26.with statistics, or the single market. It was a matter of whether
:09:27. > :09:31.the EU made you feel larger and more important and connected, or it made
:09:32. > :09:42.you feel oppressed and smaller and Di looted in your identity. --
:09:43. > :09:48.dilute it. We had to reason may after a lot of time saying what she
:09:49. > :09:54.really wanted, her speech on Tuesday. What Jude you think of
:09:55. > :10:00.that? Are you confident? This week has been pivotal in terms of what
:10:01. > :10:03.Theresa May has presented. I was a borderline Remainer, probably
:10:04. > :10:07.because I couldn't see a clear plan, could not understand what and how,
:10:08. > :10:10.so I wanted more of a safety net to remain and use negotiation to better
:10:11. > :10:17.what was a far from perfect European Union. But for me, this week has
:10:18. > :10:23.been pivotal in getting some belief and confidence behind the plans we
:10:24. > :10:28.have. I think the 52-48 would go to much more than 52 now. The decision
:10:29. > :10:34.has been made and we need to get on with it. Piers Morgan, did she make
:10:35. > :10:38.a good fist of it on Tuesday? Yes, that is a really good point. After
:10:39. > :10:43.her speech, more people would feel more confident about the direction
:10:44. > :10:46.the country is taking. One of the problems I have with the Labour
:10:47. > :10:51.Party is the completely mixed messages from senior members of the
:10:52. > :10:55.party. I am really not sure even now whether the Labour Party, perhaps
:10:56. > :10:59.you can clear it up, whether you believe free movement of people
:11:00. > :11:03.around Europe can apply in this country, and we still get some form
:11:04. > :11:07.of access to the single market, because nobody in your party at the
:11:08. > :11:11.moment seems to be prepared to put their head over the parapet and
:11:12. > :11:16.Sayeeda Warsi. And these things are really important. I would dispute
:11:17. > :11:21.with Lionel, I think immigration is a massive part of this referendum.
:11:22. > :11:26.Immigration was part of that equation. I think it was key. Many
:11:27. > :11:29.people are genuinely worried about the number of people coming here,
:11:30. > :11:31.they felt it was out of control, they felt social cohesion was
:11:32. > :11:36.breaking up and they voted accordingly. I say to the Labour
:11:37. > :11:42.Party and the Conservatives, what are you going to do about it,
:11:43. > :11:46.because we never get the answers? Emily Thornberry, in principle, is
:11:47. > :11:51.the Labour Party in favour of immigration, or in favour of
:11:52. > :11:54.controlling immigration? We are in favour of immigration, but fair
:11:55. > :11:58.rules and managed migration, and we always have been. We are not in
:11:59. > :12:02.favour of putting arbitrary limits, not in favour of saying, we should
:12:03. > :12:07.have this number of migrants, because that is a load of nonsense.
:12:08. > :12:12.But are there too many people coming from the EU to this country? That is
:12:13. > :12:15.the question no one wants to answer. It is clear to all of us that
:12:16. > :12:18.migration needs to come down and there are a number of reasons for
:12:19. > :12:22.that. Let's have a grown-up conversation about it. The reason
:12:23. > :12:25.there are too many people coming in is because we have a skills gap.
:12:26. > :12:29.Whether it as plumbers, nurses, we have been getting people from Europe
:12:30. > :12:31.to fill the jobs because we have not been training enough people
:12:32. > :12:34.ourselves. APPLAUSE
:12:35. > :12:41.We have also had a lot of employers taking advantage of people.
:12:42. > :12:45.When I was last in Peterborough, there were family houses with ten
:12:46. > :12:49.people living in them. There was this hot bedding going on, which is
:12:50. > :12:53.not as exciting as it sounds. It was people being paid very little money,
:12:54. > :12:59.and came over to Britain, were living on very low wages and were
:13:00. > :13:04.undercutting the local markets. Do you get a clear message from Labour
:13:05. > :13:10.of their view on this? No, because what MLE is describing is a system
:13:11. > :13:12.of managed migration, which we need. If we need to recruit skills
:13:13. > :13:18.internationally, we should do so. But we should be able to decide what
:13:19. > :13:21.number we recruit, how, when and where. When Jeremy Corbyn came here
:13:22. > :13:25.about two weeks ago to make his speech, on the day before, the
:13:26. > :13:30.Labour Party was briefing that it did not support freedom of movement.
:13:31. > :13:34.On the day, he gave the impression he did support freedom of movement.
:13:35. > :13:38.If we remain in the single market, as many Labour politicians arguing,
:13:39. > :13:47.we have to accept unfettered free movement of people within Europe.
:13:48. > :13:51.Emily cannot sit there and say that she is going to have an adult
:13:52. > :13:55.conversation and in the next breath say that the Labour Party will not
:13:56. > :13:57.stand in the way of Brexit. It is the job of the official opposition
:13:58. > :14:01.in parliament to scrutinise government. We know what the
:14:02. > :14:05.Conservatives want to do. We know they want to take us out of the
:14:06. > :14:08.single market and out of the customs union. We heard from Phillip Hammond
:14:09. > :14:14.that they want to make ask Singapore without the sunshine. We will be a
:14:15. > :14:15.low tax, low regulation economy. This is going to open the door to
:14:16. > :14:27.that. The difficulty is Labour are not in
:14:28. > :14:32.power, the Conservatives are. You are not even in opposition. What we
:14:33. > :14:36.should be looking at as the opposition is what Theresa May has
:14:37. > :14:39.said. I wish her the best of luck and hope she gets everything she
:14:40. > :14:45.promises she's going to get that she promised in that speech. She said
:14:46. > :14:50.we'd get free access to the single market, we wouldn't be paying
:14:51. > :14:56.tariffs, there wouldn't be any red tape, we'd trade freely.
:14:57. > :15:02.People have said this is her plan and if that is her plan, she had a
:15:03. > :15:06.piece of paper, it had "plan" written on the top of it but it was
:15:07. > :15:10.a series of aspirations, there was no plan there, it was contradictory.
:15:11. > :15:15.Thank you very much. You didn't answer the question. A question for
:15:16. > :15:21.you, Chris Grayling. One of the things that's been reported is that
:15:22. > :15:27.the EU wants before they naught on a trade deal, us to pay ?60 billion
:15:28. > :15:31.max, something like that to the EU before talks start. Is the
:15:32. > :15:37.Government going to negotiate the money we owe to the EU before they
:15:38. > :15:40.sit down and have talks? As far as I can see, there is lots of rhetoric
:15:41. > :15:44.around, people saying things about what is going to happen, about
:15:45. > :15:46.what's not going to happen. We haven't triggered article 50 yet so
:15:47. > :15:51.I suggest we wait to see what happens. You have read what the EU
:15:52. > :15:54.leaders have said, before we start talks with you, you have got to
:15:55. > :15:59.stump up the money you owe to the club? Shall we see what actually
:16:00. > :16:04.happens when we trigger article 50. A lot of things are being said by
:16:05. > :16:10.people in Brussels and elsewhere. It depends what happens after we
:16:11. > :16:13.trigger article 50. Do you think it will happen? I think we wait and
:16:14. > :16:19.see. You have already said that. Is there a bill to pay before we start
:16:20. > :16:23.negotiating? I'm not expecting it. Theresa May said we weren't going to
:16:24. > :16:27.carry on contributing. Let's leave the discussions until the point they
:16:28. > :16:32.start and we've triggered article 50: Doesn't this show the
:16:33. > :16:37.foolishness of the threatening tone Theresa May struck on Tuesday? It's
:16:38. > :16:41.the worst possible way to get into a negotiation... No, no, no, let me
:16:42. > :16:44.challenge you on that. If you want to start a decent negotiation, you
:16:45. > :16:48.should be going about it showing that we are going to have
:16:49. > :16:54.negotiations between the parting teams. I don't agree with this. The
:16:55. > :16:59.reason I don't think that's right. David Cameron went over there - I
:17:00. > :17:05.was in Marrakech in Morocco at New Year on holiday. Let me finish. You
:17:06. > :17:09.go into the markets there, it's fan, 1500 years old, you start bartering,
:17:10. > :17:16.Israil-Lebanoning the kind of guy that goes in the first shop and says
:17:17. > :17:24.I love all your carpets and by the way I'm not leaving here until you
:17:25. > :17:29.screw me over -- he's the kind of guy. Theresa May said to the first
:17:30. > :17:33.guy, I quite like your carpets but I've got a really great offer on
:17:34. > :17:36.carpets from this guy called Donald in America and if you don't do me a
:17:37. > :17:41.great deal, I'm just going to walk out of your shop and go to Donald
:17:42. > :17:46.and do a deal. We get the point. I think that is a great negotiating
:17:47. > :17:52.tactic. The woman in the third row there?
:17:53. > :17:57.There seems to be lots of talk about plans and aspirations and
:17:58. > :18:01.negotiations. The truth of the matter is, until we are two years
:18:02. > :18:05.after triggering article 50, we don't know the kind of country that
:18:06. > :18:10.we are going to end up being at the end of this process. There is talk
:18:11. > :18:15.about low tax, you know, haven for business, there's the potential that
:18:16. > :18:21.by the time we get to that process we could be damaging our union with
:18:22. > :18:25.Scotland. There's potential that we are undermining some progress that's
:18:26. > :18:29.been made in the peace process between Northern Ireland. So you are
:18:30. > :18:32.uneasy about the two years, are you? So my request is not that we have a
:18:33. > :18:37.second referendum, but it's about the fact that the Government comes
:18:38. > :18:41.back to consult us again because any of those types of changes to our
:18:42. > :18:44.country are fundamental and they deserve a referendum in their own
:18:45. > :18:51.right. So do you want a referendum after the deal has been done, do
:18:52. > :18:55.you? I want to know what the options really, really are, because
:18:56. > :18:58.everybody can say, I knew what I was voting for one way or the other. But
:18:59. > :19:03.whatever I ticked last year, I wasn't voting for a low tax haven
:19:04. > :19:08.country, I wasn't voting for Scotland to leave the union. All
:19:09. > :19:11.right. But what would you want, an election, referendum? What would
:19:12. > :19:16.satisfy you in terms of the democratic responsibility you feel
:19:17. > :19:19.you have? I would love a referendum and, as a Remainor myself, that
:19:20. > :19:25.would help me if we did then leave, I would feel OK I can go along with
:19:26. > :19:31.this process, we've had two years an I can buy into this now. You, there?
:19:32. > :19:35.We ought to adopt the Scottish way of doing a referendum, keep going
:19:36. > :19:37.until Nicola Sturgeon gets her own way.
:19:38. > :19:45.APPLAUSE. You, Sir? I was the vote Leave
:19:46. > :19:48.coordinator for Peterborough and I never thought I would say this but I
:19:49. > :19:53.completely agree with Piers. Thank you. Thank you very much! With
:19:54. > :19:57.regards to imGration, to say that wasn't one of the main things people
:19:58. > :20:00.were concerned about is ridiculous. The fact that Labour and Liberal
:20:01. > :20:04.Democrats are calling for second referendums or ignoring the fact of
:20:05. > :20:09.immigration mainly because they are worried about losing left-wing
:20:10. > :20:14.supporters is absolutely ridiculous. They are democracy deniers, to be
:20:15. > :20:21.honest. One other question still on the Brexit issue from Elizabeth
:20:22. > :20:24.Damazer, please? Is Boris Johnson a liability or is he brave enough to
:20:25. > :20:27.say what the rest of us are thinking?
:20:28. > :20:36.Emily Thornberry? I think it's very unfortunate that
:20:37. > :20:40.the Foreign Office is led by Boris Johnson. I think that we should have
:20:41. > :20:44.somebody who is a diplomat and, if we need to be doing negotiations
:20:45. > :20:47.with friends and allies, we should be doing it in a way which is
:20:48. > :20:51.diplomatic and not contrary to our interests. I think the whole Brexit
:20:52. > :20:55.negotiations will be complicated. I think that Theresa May put forward a
:20:56. > :20:58.whole lot of promises, you know, before the public, but actually, it
:20:59. > :21:01.will be a compromise. I don't think it's like buying a carpet. I think
:21:02. > :21:04.it's a bit more like a divorce. I think that you have to keep your
:21:05. > :21:08.head and I think you have to continue to talk to one another and
:21:09. > :21:11.you have to be prepared to do a trade-off. I think that if Theresa
:21:12. > :21:14.May is going to go to Europe and speak on behalf of the whole of the
:21:15. > :21:19.British public, she should be prepared to have a proper debate. I
:21:20. > :21:25.look back to what happened... We are talking about Boris Johnson. I
:21:26. > :21:29.thought we were. I thought we were. I now want to talk about David
:21:30. > :21:33.Cameron. He came back... No, no, we are talking about Boris Johnson.
:21:34. > :21:35.He's dead and buried, David Cameron, he's gone!
:21:36. > :21:40.APPLAUSE. I don't know whether you noticed. We
:21:41. > :21:43.did not have a plan until now. David Cameron specifically told the Civil
:21:44. > :21:47.Service not to look. I'll cut you off because we've got to keep
:21:48. > :21:54.moving. Lionel Shriver. Boris Johnson? I find him rather charming,
:21:55. > :22:03.I confess. APPLAUSE.
:22:04. > :22:07.I'm not sure he's in the right job, partly because people in the UK
:22:08. > :22:11.don't have a sense of humour. Do you think he should be Prime
:22:12. > :22:17.Minister? I would send him over to the US. He's one of the only British
:22:18. > :22:25.politicians that Americans recognise. As ambassador? Or just
:22:26. > :22:32.send him? Unlike some Americans, I'm not going to tell the British who to
:22:33. > :22:40.appoint as ambassador. Piers Morgan? I love Boris. He's a character, he's
:22:41. > :22:45.bright, much brighter than he suggests by some things he says. He
:22:46. > :22:48.made a joke about the valed threats coming out of the European Union
:22:49. > :22:53.about how they were going to punish us. It was immediately, as all jokes
:22:54. > :22:58.are in this PC-crazed world that we now have to endure, it immediately
:22:59. > :23:00.became a sickening Nazi taunt at Europe which, of course, the
:23:01. > :23:06.Europeans couldn't believe their luck. This is fantastic, we can now
:23:07. > :23:12.take the moral high ground about Nazis. Weirs, it was fraudulent, it
:23:13. > :23:17.was fake offendedness -- Piers. Of course. Nobody actually was wounded
:23:18. > :23:20.by this joke. APPLAUSE.
:23:21. > :23:24.. Here is what I think about Boris and what I thought about Theresa May
:23:25. > :23:29.this week as well. What they did was a bed of much-needed chest-beating
:23:30. > :23:33.for this country, much-needed belief in Britain again as a country that
:23:34. > :23:36.matters in the world and by contrast, I'm sorry Emily, you are
:23:37. > :23:41.sitting next to me and it feels ungentlemanly but I'll read what you
:23:42. > :23:46.said this week, you warned was now such a small player, it could be
:23:47. > :23:52.swallowed up in trade talks. That kind of defeatest talk, I'm sorry.
:23:53. > :23:54.OK... Let me finish. That doesn't do us any favours at all.
:23:55. > :24:00.APPLAUSE. Boris Johnson... We are not going to
:24:01. > :24:08.go on to that. It's not all about you Emily. He keeps having a go at
:24:09. > :24:13.me! I know. You deserved it. You, there? Sbj a great chap and can take
:24:14. > :24:20.this country forward. He says what a lot of us are thinking and he's got
:24:21. > :24:25.the, can I say the word? What is it? To do it! He can do this country
:24:26. > :24:30.proud and let's put the Great back into Great Britain.
:24:31. > :24:35.And you? Just reflecting on some of the things people have been saying,
:24:36. > :24:38.I think a lot of it is about personal integrity. Some on the
:24:39. > :24:43.panel have said, I voted one way but now because my constituency this, I
:24:44. > :24:49.represent my constituents so now I've given up my beliefs. Now I'm
:24:50. > :24:58.going along with this. It sounds like a populist... So... Do we elect
:24:59. > :25:03.people on personal integrity. Boris is someone whose personal integrity
:25:04. > :25:07.we believe is genuine. And to have people who're genuine and bright -
:25:08. > :25:12.there was a thing against experts being bright and working things out
:25:13. > :25:17.- there is a whole piece there surely about the personal integrity
:25:18. > :25:23.of those who represent us. Otherwise you go down a mob rule route.
:25:24. > :25:27.Alistair Carmichael, does Boris have personal integrity? There may have
:25:28. > :25:36.been an element of synthetic outreach. Like Lionel said, yes.
:25:37. > :25:42.Yes. But it would be fine, ex-politicible if it was a one-off,
:25:43. > :25:47.if this was the first time it ever happened -- inexplicable. The thing
:25:48. > :25:53.that really worried me about this was the lack of outrage that there
:25:54. > :25:56.was genuinely coming from the continent because I think they've
:25:57. > :26:01.stopped being outraged by Boris by laughing at him. At a time when what
:26:02. > :26:05.we really need is a good team pursuing Britain's best interests,
:26:06. > :26:09.he's a distraction. Chris Grayling? Anybody that hopes Boris is going to
:26:10. > :26:13.turn to the grey man spouting official speak is going to be sadly
:26:14. > :26:16.disappointed. He's a great character, very popular figure, but
:26:17. > :26:20.you have to remember something else about Boris. He's a smart guy,
:26:21. > :26:24.speaks multiple languages, he's well versed in International Affairs and
:26:25. > :26:29.I suspect that the overriding sense of Foreign Ministers in other
:26:30. > :26:33.country who is've dealt with him over the last few months, finding
:26:34. > :26:37.out what a sophisticated knowledge he has about the affairs of the
:26:38. > :26:42.world and the knowledge. He's proving really good for us. I will
:26:43. > :26:46.deal with him around the table. Emily Thornberry, I cut you off on
:26:47. > :26:51.your attack. Do you want to have a brief last word? You can take quotes
:26:52. > :26:58.out of context, Piers and you can twist them, but the trues is... What
:26:59. > :27:03.did I... Let her have her say. You have accused me of misquoting. That
:27:04. > :27:18.is not the worst thing in the world. Aboutly Gration -- abrigation of my
:27:19. > :27:22.journalistic integrity. Go on Emily? There were concerns about the effect
:27:23. > :27:25.on privatisation of the National Health Service and people were
:27:26. > :27:28.against it, Trump says he'll have a trade deal with us within weeks.
:27:29. > :27:32.Trade deals don't take weeks and if we are going to get bounced into a
:27:33. > :27:35.trade deal with the US, we have be very careful to make sure that we
:27:36. > :27:39.don't get ourselves bounced into a deal that will not do us any good.
:27:40. > :27:44.If we were having a deal with the United States as part of Europe that
:27:45. > :27:48.wasn't necessary to our advantage... Where were you misquoted in this,
:27:49. > :27:53.I'm lost now. I put nit that context. Did you say we were a small
:27:54. > :27:58.player we'd get swallowed up. Did you say that? We are a small player.
:27:59. > :28:03.We have to be very careful not to get swallowed up. Just to clarify,
:28:04. > :28:08.Emily, you did say what I said you said. Get over your ego and listen
:28:09. > :28:14.to some things I'm saying. It's not about ego. I'm making an important
:28:15. > :28:18.point. It's a really important point. We'll be dog this with trade
:28:19. > :28:23.deals around the world. We need to be conscious of that and we need to
:28:24. > :28:26.make sure, because once a trade deal has been signed, private companies
:28:27. > :28:30.will be going to the British courts and saying there is a trade deal, we
:28:31. > :28:35.demand access to your markets on these terms because that's what's
:28:36. > :28:39.been agreed. We immediate to be careful and these things can't be
:28:40. > :28:42.answered in half a sentence misquotes. I'll leave that and take
:28:43. > :28:47.a point from the woman in the third row from the back, please? I was the
:28:48. > :28:51.person that asked the question about Boris and I don't quite understand
:28:52. > :29:00.what Emily has been saying because it didn't seem to have any relevance
:29:01. > :29:06.to my question. What is your view? I think my view... The question is, is
:29:07. > :29:10.he saying what we are thinking? I think he's very intelligent. My
:29:11. > :29:13.concern is, in the position of Foreign Secretary, should he be
:29:14. > :29:18.making the sort of inflammatory remark that that perhaps was. Your
:29:19. > :29:22.answer to that is what? He shouldn't. I'm inclined to support
:29:23. > :29:26.him anyway. I see, so you want him to stay. Thank you very much.
:29:27. > :29:33.That's clear as mud, your position. But thank you very much.
:29:34. > :29:35.We're in London next week and the week after
:29:36. > :29:53.Another question from Kassim Jaffer, please. Will the world be a more
:29:54. > :30:01.dangerous place from tomorrow when Donald Trump is sworn in as the 45th
:30:02. > :30:17.President? It will certainly be more interesting! And... Yes, probably. I
:30:18. > :30:21.am less worried about what trumpeters domestic league, because
:30:22. > :30:26.that can often be redressed in another administration. -- what
:30:27. > :30:31.Donald Trump does on a domestic basis. I am most worried about his
:30:32. > :30:34.foreign policy. I think he is poorly educated about the world and he is
:30:35. > :30:39.not calculating enough. People are always making so much about his
:30:40. > :30:43.business experience and he is a great negotiator, but I don't see
:30:44. > :30:50.that so far in what he has said in relation to other countries, that
:30:51. > :31:01.kind of calculation. The one China policy is a good example. It is a
:31:02. > :31:07.dumb policy. Tie one is a separate country, a democracy. Don't tell the
:31:08. > :31:12.Chinese. And China does not control it, and the US supports it with a
:31:13. > :31:17.lot of arms. That is the reality, but the US goes along with the
:31:18. > :31:21.Chinese delusion that it is still part of China. Well, you know what,
:31:22. > :31:28.going along with that delusion doesn't cost us anything. So OK,
:31:29. > :31:35.it's a little annoying to have two defy reality like that and to pander
:31:36. > :31:39.to someone's vanity. But if you're going to stand up and say, I don't
:31:40. > :31:42.know, we are going to call your bluff, there actually are two
:31:43. > :31:48.chinas, you have to get something out of it. And the only thing that
:31:49. > :31:52.the United States would get out of it was trouble, so you keep your
:31:53. > :31:55.mouth shut and you go along with it. And that's the kind of calculation
:31:56. > :32:01.that the President needs to make, and I'm worried he's not capable of
:32:02. > :32:09.it. And stuff with China, this is not funny. You don't want to offend
:32:10. > :32:12.their pride. I want to put to you a slightly different point which was
:32:13. > :32:16.that you read the Michael Gove interview with Donald Trump, in
:32:17. > :32:18.which he said Nato was obsolete and he would certainly look at getting
:32:19. > :32:25.rid of the allowance. Can we come to that? My immediate reaction to
:32:26. > :32:28.Lionel is that one of the reasons that Thommo Trump got elected is
:32:29. > :32:34.because he will stand up to China and say, I don't agree with you. He
:32:35. > :32:36.is going to reinforce American power, which is why a lot of
:32:37. > :32:43.Americans like him and voted for him. In relation to Nato, he said
:32:44. > :32:49.the structure of Nato was obsolete. Why? Because he looked at the maths.
:32:50. > :32:57.72% of all the spending of Nato is consumed by the Americans. Of the
:32:58. > :33:02.other 27 members of Nato, only four countries pay their 2% of GDP
:33:03. > :33:08.towards Nato. We are one of them. That means 23 other countries do not
:33:09. > :33:11.pay what they should pay. And Donald Trump is a business guy. He is
:33:12. > :33:16.going, hang on, why are we paying all the money? Where is the
:33:17. > :33:19.contribution from all these people who the moment they have any trouble
:33:20. > :33:25.they come to the Americans and asked us to help. He is looking at it as
:33:26. > :33:29.an obsolete structure that needs to be dragged kicking and screaming
:33:30. > :33:34.into a better deal for America. Frankly, I think he's right about
:33:35. > :33:38.that. Will the world be a more dangerous place? I don't think so. I
:33:39. > :33:43.come back to what he is at his heart. I have known him for ten
:33:44. > :33:46.years and I keep being told I have to call him a monster, because that
:33:47. > :33:50.is what the lemmings have agreed. He is not a monster. He is not an
:33:51. > :33:55.angel, but he is not a monster. He is a very smart business guy who has
:33:56. > :33:59.consistently proven people wrong. At the early stage of his campaign,
:34:00. > :34:03.then he won the nomination when nobody said he could, then he beat
:34:04. > :34:08.Hillary Clinton. We underestimate him at his peril -- at our peril. He
:34:09. > :34:13.will not look on warfare as a good deal but as a massive drain on
:34:14. > :34:17.American resources. He knows that all he has to do to go down as a
:34:18. > :34:22.great, successful President, and very popular if people is this off,
:34:23. > :34:25.is to get American jobs back to Americans from outside America, from
:34:26. > :34:30.the outsourcing that has wrecked the rust belt states. He has to keep
:34:31. > :34:33.America safe, tighten up on immigration and deliver on the
:34:34. > :34:37.things that were the core messages that propelled him to the White
:34:38. > :34:41.House. If he can do that, and I don't think he will be declaring war
:34:42. > :34:43.in the way that Hillary Clinton might have done, one of the great
:34:44. > :34:51.hawks of modern times in America... I say to people about Trump, this,
:34:52. > :34:54.give him a chance. You don't have to like him. He shoots from the hip,
:34:55. > :34:59.says what he is thinking, sometimes goes over the top, but give the guy
:35:00. > :35:00.a chance and judge him on his actions and you might be pleasantly
:35:01. > :35:06.surprised. APPLAUSE
:35:07. > :35:11.I hear what Piers says and I hope he is right.
:35:12. > :35:15.I hope that what Donald Trump has said is not necessarily the person
:35:16. > :35:18.that he is. I think that if it is right that he does not mean he will
:35:19. > :35:23.trample all over the Paris climate change agreement, I am pleased. If
:35:24. > :35:27.he is not going to move the American Embassy to Jerusalem and wrecked the
:35:28. > :35:33.two state solution, I will be very happy. If he is not going to try and
:35:34. > :35:37.undermine the Iranians nuclear deal, again I would be very encouraged and
:35:38. > :35:41.I will judge him by his actions. The difficulty is, if you look at the
:35:42. > :35:47.people he has appointed, that kind of scenes to underline the sort of
:35:48. > :35:51.things that he has been saying. Not to criticise Piers, which is not my
:35:52. > :35:57.job, but when he talks about his journalistic integrity, Donald Trump
:35:58. > :36:03.did not say that Nato had an obsolete structure, he said it was
:36:04. > :36:07.obsolete. Now, our defence is based on Nato and our agreements with
:36:08. > :36:11.America and the other states of Europe. And we need to have Nato and
:36:12. > :36:19.we need to have an American President... Donald Trump wants to
:36:20. > :36:23.continue with Nato, he just does not want America to continue paying an
:36:24. > :36:28.irrationally high amount of money to support everybody else. What we have
:36:29. > :36:33.to do, as Britain, we are America's closest and longest standing friend.
:36:34. > :36:37.We are in a position of some power, authority and influence, and I think
:36:38. > :36:44.we need a Prime Minister who is prepared to say, when necessary, no,
:36:45. > :36:48.Mr President, that is wrong. Donald Trump is half British. His mum was
:36:49. > :36:53.born and raised in Scotland until she was 18. He loves this country.
:36:54. > :36:58.His mother absolutely loved the Queen. If I am Britain, coming out
:36:59. > :37:03.of the European Union, and our biggest purchaser of our exports in
:37:04. > :37:07.the world after the EU is America, and we have Donald Trump saying, I
:37:08. > :37:11.am half British, the most powerful man in the world, I want a deal, we
:37:12. > :37:21.should be tearing the roof down to get it. All right. Listen, the two
:37:22. > :37:25.of you, you've done well, made a big contributions. You've taken up too
:37:26. > :37:31.much time compared with the three people here and the audience. What
:37:32. > :37:42.do your Muslim friends think of your staunch defence of Trump? We don't
:37:43. > :37:46.want any more from Piers. When you butter him up by, please, just be a
:37:47. > :37:50.little nicer, it's not an attack, it's a little love letter to say,
:37:51. > :37:55.you have been a little naughty. Actually I said the Muslim ban was
:37:56. > :37:59.an outrage and he had to withdraw it. Guess what, he has done and now
:38:00. > :38:03.says he wants tighter controls on people coming from terror countries.
:38:04. > :38:07.I agree that you have to judge people by what they do in office.
:38:08. > :38:11.The United States is our closest, most important ally. We have
:38:12. > :38:16.long-standing ties and we should continue to do so and we will work
:38:17. > :38:21.with the Trump administration. Theresa May will go to meet Donald
:38:22. > :38:24.Trump shortly. There are already changes taking place to deal with
:38:25. > :38:28.the incoming administration. If you look at the broad appointments,
:38:29. > :38:33.there is a range of people with different experiences. Some past
:38:34. > :38:37.Cabinet ministers reappointed. We should be optimistic, should engage
:38:38. > :38:40.with the new administration. I don't think the world is more dangerous
:38:41. > :38:44.because of Donald Trump becoming President of the United States. The
:38:45. > :38:47.world is a dangerous place anyway and the trouble will not come from a
:38:48. > :38:51.new administration in the United States, but from appalling things in
:38:52. > :38:55.the Middle East with Isil, for example. We need to work closely
:38:56. > :39:01.with the United States to combat those threats, where the real danger
:39:02. > :39:06.is coming from. I think I can agree with Piers to this extent, and it is
:39:07. > :39:10.that Donald Trump, tomorrow, is inaugurated into an office that is
:39:11. > :39:16.just too important for us and our people not to give him the benefit
:39:17. > :39:20.of the doubt. So we do have to give him the opportunity to show how he
:39:21. > :39:26.governs, regardless of how he campaigned. But he might not be a
:39:27. > :39:31.monster, but Piers, this is a man who thinks it is OK to mock disabled
:39:32. > :39:36.people, OK to marginalise ethnic minorities, he thinks it is OK to
:39:37. > :39:41.talk about women in a way that, frankly, should never have been
:39:42. > :39:46.allowed to happen. We have been through that a lot during the
:39:47. > :39:52.campaign. The question is really what does it mean for this country?
:39:53. > :39:58.The question was for the world, is it a more dangerous place? It is a
:39:59. > :40:02.more worrying place at least. From our point of view, the thing that
:40:03. > :40:05.concerns me is that I think the government's noses out of joint
:40:06. > :40:10.because Nigel Farage has been in their and they have some catching up
:40:11. > :40:17.to do. Donald Trump has said he is going to reinstate American torture
:40:18. > :40:21.programme. We, in this country, have historically shared intelligence
:40:22. > :40:25.with America. We do not share intelligence with countries that use
:40:26. > :40:30.torture. I think his Attorney General said he would not allow that
:40:31. > :40:34.to happen. You have to hope so. It is on the record the people he has
:40:35. > :40:41.appointed have said they will not do it. In the Supreme Court, we had a
:40:42. > :40:45.judgment where MI5 agents in this case were complicit with American
:40:46. > :40:49.rendition of dissidents to Libya. That is the sort of thing that can
:40:50. > :40:55.happen when the special relationship goes wrong. Have you been listening
:40:56. > :41:00.to the hearings? I have not. I saw the woman who has been appointed as
:41:01. > :41:04.the Education Secretary. If you listen to the hearings, you will
:41:05. > :41:09.hear these points are dressed. You may not believe what they say. We
:41:10. > :41:13.have been here before, David, that is the point. I just heard Piers
:41:14. > :41:20.describe Donald Trump as a smart businessman. Let's hear your view.
:41:21. > :41:26.We have seen in this country a smart businessman who is now out on his
:41:27. > :41:31.yacht, leaving BHS workers without a job or a pension. So sometimes smart
:41:32. > :41:31.businessmen can leave a trail of destruction.
:41:32. > :41:43.APPLAUSE You, sir, with the white hair and
:41:44. > :41:47.the spectacles. It's a bit like the referendum. The
:41:48. > :41:51.Americans have voted for Trump, he should be given his chance and he
:41:52. > :41:55.might surprise people. I think he is good for the country. I'm going to
:41:56. > :42:00.move on because we will have plenty of time to talk about Donald Trump
:42:01. > :42:09.as the presidency unfolds. Samantha Hemraj, please. Should the council
:42:10. > :42:12.be allowed to raise tax by 15% for social care? Shouldn't this be
:42:13. > :42:19.coming out of central government budgets? Surrey County Council's
:42:20. > :42:24.leader and Chris Grayling's constituency is in Surrey, said he
:42:25. > :42:28.wanted to raise council tax by 15%, for which he has to have a
:42:29. > :42:31.referendum. He is proposing a referendum because he cannot afford
:42:32. > :42:36.to pay for social care. Are you in favour of this? He should certainly
:42:37. > :42:40.be able to ask the question and it is for the people of Surrey to
:42:41. > :42:45.decide whether he should do it. How would you advise him? There is a
:42:46. > :42:52.question about where responsibility lies in terms of payments. I think
:42:53. > :42:56.the solution for health and social is greater integration between the
:42:57. > :43:01.two. On a micro level it is happening in my constituency. He
:43:02. > :43:07.says he has run out of money and they can't do it unless they raise
:43:08. > :43:10.15%. I think the solution is local integration and local control of
:43:11. > :43:13.budgets. If you centralise everything, you don't get the
:43:14. > :43:20.integration that creates both savings and a better service. As to
:43:21. > :43:23.whether Surrey is doing the right thing, David will have to get up and
:43:24. > :43:27.defend what he is doing. He will have to make the case that he needs
:43:28. > :43:30.to do this rather than bring efficiencies elsewhere and the
:43:31. > :43:37.people of Surrey will decide. What is he meant to do when you have cut
:43:38. > :43:39.170 million of his budget? It is a challenging time for local
:43:40. > :43:43.government and central government. In order to make the books balance
:43:44. > :43:47.and deliver good services and make sure we don't put up your taxes, we
:43:48. > :43:53.have had to take tough, challenging decisions. That is the same with
:43:54. > :44:06.national and local government. David's challenge as leader of
:44:07. > :44:06.Surrey County Council is to explain why it is necessary to do this and
:44:07. > :44:07.let the people of Surrey decide. This is the first council to go to a
:44:08. > :44:08.referendum to put up its tax state, because it says central government
:44:09. > :44:13.is not funding it properly. Are they right?
:44:14. > :44:17.It's a national problem and the Government is totally in denial
:44:18. > :44:20.about this at the moment. APPLAUSE.
:44:21. > :44:24.I was in the chamber of the House of Commons and I heard Theresa May say
:44:25. > :44:28.that the problems with the NHS are "a small number of incidents where
:44:29. > :44:32.unacceptable practices have taken place". I think she needs to get out
:44:33. > :44:36.more. I think she actually needs to see what's going on. The difficulty
:44:37. > :44:40.is, the crisis in social care is what social care and the NHS, you
:44:41. > :44:44.are right to this extent, absolutely go hand in hand together. If you
:44:45. > :44:48.don't look after elderly people in their homes, if nobody comes round
:44:49. > :44:51.to see them until lunch time to get them up or there's nobody there if
:44:52. > :44:54.they fall over, they are going to end up in A which means they'll
:44:55. > :44:59.end up in hospital, then they won't be able to get out because they
:45:00. > :45:03.won't be able to get out again. Of course this is one of the reasons,
:45:04. > :45:06.there are others, as to why it is we are having a crisis in the NHS. For
:45:07. > :45:09.local authorities to have all this money cut away from them and then
:45:10. > :45:13.for the Government to say it's all right, it's all your fault, it's all
:45:14. > :45:17.your responsibility, you can raise council tax and make it up - you
:45:18. > :45:21.can't. The amount of money that's been taken out of social care cannot
:45:22. > :45:24.be made up by raising council tax locally but actually this is a
:45:25. > :45:31.national issue, it's a national crisis and it's about time the
:45:32. > :45:36.Government woke up to it. What would you do where would you find the
:45:37. > :45:40.money? I would never have as my priority when every budget comes
:45:41. > :45:49.forward to keep cutting corporation tax for a start. I do not believe we
:45:50. > :45:52.are a country that cannot afford to have sufficient for resources. You
:45:53. > :45:56.have a child sleeping on two chairs whilst waiting for hours to be seen
:45:57. > :46:02.at A I don't believe we are a country that actually is about that.
:46:03. > :46:05.You are saying corporation tax? Yes. That is a small proportion of tax
:46:06. > :46:08.isn't it? It depends. If we leave the European Union in the way
:46:09. > :46:12.Theresa May is saying we might have to, she's going to cup corporation
:46:13. > :46:16.tax, I think it's ?120 billion over five years. How much would you put
:46:17. > :46:21.it up? I would look again at how it is we can make sure that social care
:46:22. > :46:25.works with health and yes, it has to be that the two are to be integrated
:46:26. > :46:30.and yes, there can be savings made, but I would make sure that we
:46:31. > :46:36.introduced again - I mean do you remember NHS Direct? We used to be
:46:37. > :46:40.able to ring up an expert to speak to for proper advice. I've rung up
:46:41. > :46:45.the alternative, they tell me to go to A, when I get there I say I'm
:46:46. > :46:49.sorry, but I rang the number and was told to get to A immediately. Of
:46:50. > :46:54.course the A are full. You should go to a GP. Yes, and that would be
:46:55. > :46:57.good wouldn't it, but look at the difficulty people have in getting
:46:58. > :47:04.appointments at GPs, that's why they go to A as well. The man in
:47:05. > :47:08.spectacles in grey? Why are we so averse all the time to not raise
:47:09. > :47:15.income tax when our sfruct screaming out for money?
:47:16. > :47:20.APPLAUSE. Alistair Carmichael? Well you think
:47:21. > :47:27.it's bad now, wait until Philip Hammond gets his own way and we are
:47:28. > :47:33.a low tax low regulation country out of the single market. We were going
:47:34. > :47:39.to get ?350 million a week for the NHS, that doesn't seem to be coming
:47:40. > :47:44.any time soon. That's because we haven't left the European Union yet.
:47:45. > :47:48.Oh, hold on, hold on! So is it going to come? Hold on, you said it's
:47:49. > :47:52.because we haven't left yet, is it going to happen? The Government will
:47:53. > :47:55.take decisions about public spending when we have left the European
:47:56. > :48:01.Union. But hang on, you are teasing us. You sat here before the
:48:02. > :48:05.referendum and said it would be ?350 million into the NHS, now you are
:48:06. > :48:09.saying what? What I said at the time, that the Government would be
:48:10. > :48:12.able to take decisions about its priorities when we have left the
:48:13. > :48:21.European Union. That's a fat lot of good. If back pedalling ever becomes
:48:22. > :48:26.an Olympic sport, you have seen a gold-winning performance there.
:48:27. > :48:30.We need a serious conversation about this. I would like to get all the
:48:31. > :48:33.parties together into an Independent Commission, trying to take some of
:48:34. > :48:38.the political heat out of this because frankly, every year it's
:48:39. > :48:41.another year, another crisis. GPs, A, it's going to be mental health
:48:42. > :48:45.the year after that. All we do is shift money around to patch it up,
:48:46. > :48:52.we need to have a sustainable long-term solution.
:48:53. > :48:57.Lionel Shriver? I think we do need to address the issue of corporation
:48:58. > :49:04.tax because there seems to be some economic confusion. I know that it
:49:05. > :49:09.seems sensible that if you take more money then you get more money, with
:49:10. > :49:14.corporation tax that's not the way it works. Ireland lowered their tax,
:49:15. > :49:19.they made money. That's the why we make money. You bring in inward
:49:20. > :49:23.investment. There are more employees, they pay more income tax.
:49:24. > :49:33.That's the why you get money. APPLAUSE.
:49:34. > :49:38.Piers Morgan? In 1948 when the NHS was launched by Labour - I'm going
:49:39. > :49:43.to agree with a lot of what you said Emily - a population of 50 million
:49:44. > :49:48.people, the average life expectancy 66 for men, 71 for women. Today, 63
:49:49. > :49:54.million population, up by 13 million, men are living to 77, 11
:49:55. > :49:59.years longer on average, women to 81, ten years longer. There's the
:50:00. > :50:04.problem. We are living a lot longer. It's a problem if you can't cope
:50:05. > :50:09.with it. The system cannot cope with the extra volume of people coming
:50:10. > :50:13.in. The social care system, which is supposed to mean that people can go
:50:14. > :50:18.in and then be taken care of, is collapsing. The funding for it is
:50:19. > :50:22.being withdrawn. We have a Tory-led council taking on its own Government
:50:23. > :50:27.where its own ministers live and having to humiliate them. We've got
:50:28. > :50:31.front-page pictures of grandmothers on trolleys for 24-36 hours, a
:50:32. > :50:35.four-year-old kid lying on the floor in our hospitals and a Prime
:50:36. > :50:40.Minister saying, crisis, what crisis? It's not good enough. What
:50:41. > :50:44.is the solution? The other part of the equation is, we also have to be
:50:45. > :50:47.accountable. Yes we can beat up the politicians but we have to be
:50:48. > :50:51.accountable. I've been in A on a Friday night, it's like the Wild
:50:52. > :50:56.West in there. We are putting so much extra pressure on the hospitals
:50:57. > :50:58.with a lot of meaningless irrelevant injuries that don't need the
:50:59. > :51:02.treatment, so we have to look at that. I personally would have GP
:51:03. > :51:07.surgeries in every A and I would get the Government to pay for it.
:51:08. > :51:10.Secondly, this is a national issue, not a council, it should be dealt
:51:11. > :51:15.with by the Government, they have got to put more money in. We have to
:51:16. > :51:18.contribute too, through taxation or national insurance. But the National
:51:19. > :51:21.Health Service, go and live in America for a bit like I have and
:51:22. > :51:25.you will see how brilliant the National Health Service actually is.
:51:26. > :51:28.And we need to support it and we need to help it.
:51:29. > :51:31.APPLAUSE. All right, look, a lot of people
:51:32. > :51:37.have hair hands up. I'll come to you but I want to add in this element, a
:51:38. > :51:42.question from Dusan Obradovic, please? Why are we giving away so
:51:43. > :51:48.much money to foreign aid when we are cutting back on vital services
:51:49. > :51:52.at home? We are giving 0.7% of our GDP which is ?12 billion. Chris
:51:53. > :51:56.Grayling briefly, please, then I want to hear from the audience? We
:51:57. > :52:00.have heard about immigration, we have seen the refugee crisis in
:52:01. > :52:03.Europe over the last 12-18 months. If we want to create a world where
:52:04. > :52:09.thousands of people don't cross borders to try to come to Europe, we
:52:10. > :52:14.have to help those countries develop. One of the great successes,
:52:15. > :52:19.understated, is that we are seeing poverty fall in the developing
:52:20. > :52:22.world, literacy rise. The money we spend is all about helping the
:52:23. > :52:29.processes continue and easing the pressures of people coming across
:52:30. > :52:32.borders to get here. Dusan? I agree with Chris what he's saying there.
:52:33. > :52:39.At the end of the day, the money we give out is all coming out of
:52:40. > :52:43.taxpayers' money, I'm sure it is, the people are contributing. At the
:52:44. > :52:48.end of the day, I can understand, but when over the years I've seen,
:52:49. > :52:54.as a young guy brought up here, and see places shut for special needs
:52:55. > :52:59.people and kids, the youth of today haven't got the vital services, the
:53:00. > :53:03.old people as well are being cut back, at the end of the day it's all
:53:04. > :53:09.gone pear-shaped. You think we should cut back on what we do
:53:10. > :53:13.overseas? I've not really gone into the statisticical side, but from
:53:14. > :53:18.what I gather, we've given away ?50 billion in five years in foreign aid
:53:19. > :53:24.and at the end of the day, we talk about the national wealth, the old
:53:25. > :53:29.people. At the same time, you guys are the ones who make these
:53:30. > :53:35.decisions. Don't look at me! The woman at the front? I'm a retired
:53:36. > :53:39.social worker who worked with older people in my last job. I was retired
:53:40. > :53:43.on ill health grounds after years and years and years of excessive
:53:44. > :53:48.stress. I can tell you that the Government's cuts to social care are
:53:49. > :53:52.not funny. What is your remedy? Did you believe the council should raise
:53:53. > :53:57.the money? No, I don't. Absolutely not. Do you think we should cut
:53:58. > :54:00.foreign aid? Absolutely not. For starters, I think there is money
:54:01. > :54:04.there, but I think the Government makes choices about what they do
:54:05. > :54:11.with it. They make choices about whether they change the top rate of
:54:12. > :54:15.tax, for example. We have very, very wealthy - we are a very wealthy
:54:16. > :54:23.country and to suggest we can't look after our people. Food banks created
:54:24. > :54:29.over the years... He's saying... Hang on, say it again because we
:54:30. > :54:34.missed you? Over these years I've seen food banks and you are saying,
:54:35. > :54:38.we give away all our money, why have we got food banks? We haven't given
:54:39. > :54:43.away all our money. Why not have a separate tax system for your people,
:54:44. > :54:48.you pay for all of this, and people who don't want to contribute don't.
:54:49. > :54:52.I may be retired but I still pay my taxes, I can assure you. We are all
:54:53. > :54:57.the same people, people. Let me finish, please. Homelessness in this
:54:58. > :55:00.country, the like of which we have never seen in our lifetimes before,
:55:01. > :55:04.we are seeing that now. Old people who can't get out of hospital, that
:55:05. > :55:08.is one of the problems in the NHS, and I'm sick to death of listening
:55:09. > :55:12.to the Tory party saying, oh, we are doing this and we are giving them
:55:13. > :55:16.extra money - they are not. Chris Grayling, do you want to answer that
:55:17. > :55:20.briefly? All I can say the health care budget is rising year after
:55:21. > :55:25.year after year and the challenge we have with an ageing population, new
:55:26. > :55:29.treatments almost every week, keeping up is a real challenge. You
:55:30. > :55:35.cut 40% from our older social care budget. We are coming towards the
:55:36. > :55:39.end. You, Sir? The debate is shaped wrong, we are here saying we have to
:55:40. > :55:44.cut here and there to get the deficit down and we are not asking
:55:45. > :55:50.those at the top to pay more? ! It's a really important point. We don't
:55:51. > :55:54.sit there saying, how can we afford the tax cuts, but we sit there
:55:55. > :56:00.saying how we can afford paying to just keep people fed and housed. The
:56:01. > :56:04.important point on this is that the amount of tax paid by the wealthiest
:56:05. > :56:09.in our society has risen and Riz none the last few years. The most
:56:10. > :56:13.recent figures on inequality show that inequality in this country, the
:56:14. > :56:18.gap between the richest and poorest is at its lowest levels... Depends
:56:19. > :56:23.how you measure it. Do you hear often the argument that we should
:56:24. > :56:29.cut foreign aid in order to pay for domestic aid, the National Health
:56:30. > :56:34.Service, welfare? Yes, the Daily Mail's been running a campaign about
:56:35. > :56:37.this for some time. I think that we pay 0.7% of our income as a country
:56:38. > :56:43.to develop the developing world because it's the right thing to do.
:56:44. > :56:47.Yes. Place plawz Because it's the right thing to do. And because we
:56:48. > :56:52.are an inter-connectled world. We are an island but we are not an
:56:53. > :56:59.island. But Emily, it's also about choices. Yes. And about doing the
:57:00. > :57:03.right thing. I agree. Some of the stories that anger people about
:57:04. > :57:09.foreign aid, there was a story in the Daily Mail about an Ethiopian
:57:10. > :57:14.pop girl all-girl band backed by ?5 million of UK taxpayers money. That
:57:15. > :57:17.is the kind of figure for that kind of project when people look at
:57:18. > :57:22.grannies on trolleys in our hospitals for two days and they go,
:57:23. > :57:30.this isn't right. That is where I think we have to look at this. You
:57:31. > :57:33.have 30 seconds, Alistair? So you cut it, believe me, there'll still
:57:34. > :57:36.be food banks and people on trolleys. The reason we pay that,
:57:37. > :57:40.it's an international obligation and it goes to help people in other
:57:41. > :57:45.parts of the world who frankly would love to have the problems that we
:57:46. > :57:49.are complaining about today. I don't diminish any of them, but frankly
:57:50. > :57:54.you've got to put this in some sort of context. I would love to have the
:57:55. > :57:59.time to bring more of you in, but our hour is up, I'm afraid.
:58:00. > :58:04.Apologies to those with your hands up.
:58:05. > :58:07.We're in London next week, with among others, the Shadow Home
:58:08. > :58:20.To come and take part in our audience in London
:58:21. > :58:26.or Wallasey, go to our website, or call 0330 123 99 88.
:58:27. > :58:30.If you are listening tonight on Radio 5 live, the debate goes
:58:31. > :58:40.Thank you to our panel and to the audience here tonight.
:58:41. > :59:16.Einstein replaced Newton's theory of universal gravitation
:59:17. > :59:19.with a more accurate theory - general relativity.
:59:20. > :59:23.So, why's my apple falling? Well, it's not.