0:00:00 > 0:00:10Welcome to Question Time and, tonight, we are in Torquay.
0:00:11 > 0:00:18On our panel, the backbench Conservative MP who campaigned for
0:00:19 > 0:00:24Remain and who this week, light and some of her pro Brexit colleagues to
0:00:25 > 0:00:27jihadis. Claire Perry. The man who unsuccessfully challenged Jeremy
0:00:28 > 0:00:31Corbyn for the Labour leadership last summer and now wants a second
0:00:32 > 0:00:38EU referendum, Owen Smith. The Ukip deputy leader, who ran for London
0:00:39 > 0:00:42last year, Peter Whittle. The singer, songwriter and socialist,
0:00:43 > 0:00:46Billy Bragg. And the former Conservative politician who, since
0:00:47 > 0:00:49leaving Westminster, has filled her time with writing novels, performing
0:00:50 > 0:00:54in pantomime and even doing aged -- doing a remember full turn on
0:00:55 > 0:01:06Strictly. Ann Widdecombe. Welcome to you all. Welcome to our
0:01:07 > 0:01:11panel and to you at home watching. You can always join in this debate
0:01:12 > 0:01:20have your say, either Facebook or Twitter or text us on 83981. Push
0:01:21 > 0:01:26some red button somewhere and see what others are saying. Our first
0:01:27 > 0:01:30question from Clare Sardari, please. What would the panel like to say to
0:01:31 > 0:01:38the many unaccompanied refugee children in Europe now affected by
0:01:39 > 0:01:42the curtailment of the Dubs scheme? That being the scheme to bring
0:01:43 > 0:01:46unaccompanied children into the UK. 200 have been brought in and they
0:01:47 > 0:01:51are only going to take 150 more. Originally, it was going to be
0:01:52 > 0:01:55around 3000. Yesterday it was suddenly curtailed. Peter Whittle.
0:01:56 > 0:02:04What I would say is that it seems hard. -- harsh. It is only going to
0:02:05 > 0:02:09be 350 as opposed to 3000. But I think there are different issues and
0:02:10 > 0:02:16we shouldn't confuse the issue of children who would come in under
0:02:17 > 0:02:18this scheme with, if you like, the general flow of refugees and
0:02:19 > 0:02:24therefore it is regrettable. I understand the reasoning, which is
0:02:25 > 0:02:28that this attracts, if you like, people traffickers and what have
0:02:29 > 0:02:36you, but I think that, in this case, it does seem somewhat harsh just to
0:02:37 > 0:02:41curtail this very small amount. Clare's brutal question was, what
0:02:42 > 0:02:46would you say to the ones not allowed in? What do you actually
0:02:47 > 0:02:53say? It is very difficult. One has to be quite clear about this, and
0:02:54 > 0:02:56you don't want to be lacking in compassion. Obviously, we've had
0:02:57 > 0:03:02cases last year of minors or supposed miners unaccompanied who
0:03:03 > 0:03:06were actually not my nose. Those sorts of people, that actually has
0:03:07 > 0:03:11be looked at very carefully. We have to be very careful these days who is
0:03:12 > 0:03:18coming into our country. It isn't a question of being not compassionate.
0:03:19 > 0:03:23That is the case. I think, in this instance, what we are talking about
0:03:24 > 0:03:29now with the Dubs law, if you like, is that it seems to have been rather
0:03:30 > 0:03:36a harsh judgment. Billy Bragg. Tony Benn once said that the way the
0:03:37 > 0:03:39government treats refugees is very instructive, because it's the way
0:03:40 > 0:03:45they would treat the rest of us if they had half a chance.
0:03:46 > 0:03:51APPLAUSE It seems to me to be a week where
0:03:52 > 0:03:57the debate in this country has been somewhat coarsened in the way that
0:03:58 > 0:04:00we've seen recently in the USA. Trying to get rid of John .co
0:04:01 > 0:04:06because he spoke out, the Prime Minister accusing Jeremy Corbyn of
0:04:07 > 0:04:11using alternative facts. -- trying to get rid of Jeremy Berkoff -- John
0:04:12 > 0:04:13Berkoff. We have a duty to take in refugees from around the world and I
0:04:14 > 0:04:22think that... APPLAUSE
0:04:23 > 0:04:26These young people are stuck between a rock and a hard place. We lent on
0:04:27 > 0:04:31the French got mud to clear the Calais jungle. These people have
0:04:32 > 0:04:34nowhere to go. They can't go back where they came from, they can't
0:04:35 > 0:04:40assimilate into France. Our government has said that we have
0:04:41 > 0:04:45undertaken the Dubs Amendment, and Alf Dubs was a child refugee, that
0:04:46 > 0:04:47we would take them in what I think it says something about the
0:04:48 > 0:04:53closeness of the debate that is going on our country. We have some
0:04:54 > 0:04:57real thinking to do in the coming years, not just about Article 50 or
0:04:58 > 0:05:00whether we want to stay in the single market would join the
0:05:01 > 0:05:02economic area. We have to ask ourselves what kind of people we
0:05:03 > 0:05:08are. APPLAUSE
0:05:09 > 0:05:11Are we going to turn away from our responsibilities to the world or are
0:05:12 > 0:05:18we going to step up and do what we said we would do, and take all 3000
0:05:19 > 0:05:23of these children? The person with their hand up. They haven't said
0:05:24 > 0:05:27they will stop taking refugees. They are still saying they will take
0:05:28 > 0:05:31thousands from the refugee camps, which is much safer for the children
0:05:32 > 0:05:37and puts them at less risk. But these children are already here. And
0:05:38 > 0:05:44they are in France, a safe country. APPLAUSE
0:05:45 > 0:05:48I understand the concern and I talked to the Home Secretary about
0:05:49 > 0:05:53this yesterday pulled to clarify, there was never a number made. The
0:05:54 > 0:05:56government committed to make sure that every child that came who may
0:05:57 > 0:06:00have gone through the most horrific situation would be given as much
0:06:01 > 0:06:03support as they could possibly have from local councils, and the
0:06:04 > 0:06:07councils have come back and said, this is the number we can support.
0:06:08 > 0:06:16But the original act stated that we would take 3000. The Dubs amendment
0:06:17 > 0:06:19wasn't accepted? I would hate for criticism of this policy to
0:06:20 > 0:06:22overshadow what we should all be proud of, that this government has a
0:06:23 > 0:06:27fantastic track record in this region. We are spending the biggest
0:06:28 > 0:06:32humanitarian aid package we have ever spent and that is being in
0:06:33 > 0:06:35Syria pulled we will take 20,000 Syrian people over the course of
0:06:36 > 0:06:40this Parliament and I am proud to say that we have Syrian families in
0:06:41 > 0:06:45my constituency. I suspect that these children, coming here with no
0:06:46 > 0:06:49family support, often escaping from traumatic circumstances, will have
0:06:50 > 0:06:53to have incredible support and care from the local council, quite
0:06:54 > 0:06:56properly, and the councils have said that if the number they can
0:06:57 > 0:06:59adequately support. Let's not make this an enemy of what we should be
0:07:00 > 0:07:05proud of, which is an incredibly good international track record of
0:07:06 > 0:07:09supporting people from the world's toughest regions. I'm afraid that I
0:07:10 > 0:07:16do think that the sensible ways to take refugees, including children,
0:07:17 > 0:07:20are from the camps around Syria, because that is where the problem
0:07:21 > 0:07:24is. We know that those people have been absolutely displaced by that
0:07:25 > 0:07:28war and I think that is an entirely sensible policy. It is true, and the
0:07:29 > 0:07:33Home Secretary made this clear, that councils have said... When a child
0:07:34 > 0:07:40arrives here, this isn't the end. That's the beginning. The child then
0:07:41 > 0:07:44has to be looked after, found a home for, properly educated, properly
0:07:45 > 0:07:48looked after, and all councils are saying is, at the moment, they feel
0:07:49 > 0:07:52they have reached a point beyond which they don't want further
0:07:53 > 0:07:58burdens. It doesn't mean that, in the future, some similar programme
0:07:59 > 0:08:03couldn't be reinstated. Let me say this about France. I'm pretty fed up
0:08:04 > 0:08:09with France. The fact is that those people in the camps at Calais spent
0:08:10 > 0:08:13all their time trying to get unlawfully into Britain, when they
0:08:14 > 0:08:18could apply quite lawfully to stay in France, which is a safe country,
0:08:19 > 0:08:20and a signatory to all of the refugee Convention is that we are a
0:08:21 > 0:08:32signatory to. APPLAUSE
0:08:33 > 0:08:35Owen Smith. Clare, I would say sorry on behalf of the British people for
0:08:36 > 0:08:39what I think... APPLAUSE
0:08:40 > 0:08:45What I think is a shameful day for our country. As Billy said a minute
0:08:46 > 0:08:50ago, Alf Dubs, who put his name to this amendment, I worked with him in
0:08:51 > 0:08:58Northern Ireland and he is a great man, somebody who was a refugee and
0:08:59 > 0:09:02came to this country as part of the kinder transport. He is clear that
0:09:03 > 0:09:07we need to do this and I am absolutely clear that we need to
0:09:08 > 0:09:12take more of these refugees. What did you say to the council? I rang
0:09:13 > 0:09:16my council leader tonight and asked Rhondda Cynon Taf council in south
0:09:17 > 0:09:21Wales how many of these children they'd been asked to take. They have
0:09:22 > 0:09:25taken four. They could take four or five times that. They have not been
0:09:26 > 0:09:28asked to take any of the vulnerable families. I don't believe for a
0:09:29 > 0:09:33minute that it is true that the councils are ringing up a Home
0:09:34 > 0:09:37Office, saying they can't afford to take any more, and it certainly is
0:09:38 > 0:09:41not true of my council. There was a number that was talked about 3000
0:09:42 > 0:09:47was very widely understood to be the number we hoped to take as a result
0:09:48 > 0:09:50of the concession that we had to ring out the government kicking and
0:09:51 > 0:09:56screaming, and they are reneging on the promise that may made -- they
0:09:57 > 0:10:01made. There are 30,000 unaccompanied children in Europe, fleeing
0:10:02 > 0:10:09persecution. Billy is right. We've got to make some decisions about
0:10:10 > 0:10:13what sort of country we want. I want to bring Clare in, because he set an
0:10:14 > 0:10:19interesting thing, that his council hasn't been asked and could take
0:10:20 > 0:10:23five times as many. In Wiltshire, we have taken in Syrian families, but
0:10:24 > 0:10:28we have taken in children, minors on their own. I would be interesting to
0:10:29 > 0:10:32clarify that and, if it's the case, I will feed that back. But there is
0:10:33 > 0:10:36a difference between a child coming here as part of a family and a child
0:10:37 > 0:10:42coming who has no family members here, doesn't speak the language and
0:10:43 > 0:10:48may have been persecuted. A lot of abuse. There is a of abuse. We can
0:10:49 > 0:10:51go back to the government and ask them to review the numbers. But
0:10:52 > 0:10:56checking the allegation that Owen has made is clearly desirable. Let's
0:10:57 > 0:11:02hear from some of the audience. In the run-up to World War II, we took
0:11:03 > 0:11:06to 10,000 Jewish children unaccompanied. Why can't we do
0:11:07 > 0:11:12similar numbers now? It was a moment of pride for our country, and yet we
0:11:13 > 0:11:17are saying only 350. We didn't have the resources then that we have now.
0:11:18 > 0:11:21We were about to enter a world war. And we are not about to enter one
0:11:22 > 0:11:32now. Why can't we take on more children? Peter, briefly. It isn't a
0:11:33 > 0:11:34comparable situation. The kinder transport were fleeing almost
0:11:35 > 0:11:39certain death, murder by the state. That is quite different to the
0:11:40 > 0:11:46situation we have got in Europe at the moment. Children leaving Syria!
0:11:47 > 0:11:49Children who are leaving... It is absolutely not just Syria. The point
0:11:50 > 0:11:54is that I would agree that this particular thing with the Dubs
0:11:55 > 0:12:02children is harsh. There is no point trying to make general point about
0:12:03 > 0:12:05Britain's harshness. We are a compassionate country and the
0:12:06 > 0:12:10refugee situation generally is quite different to what we are talking
0:12:11 > 0:12:18about. The woman over there. I'll come to you then. Yes, I have huge
0:12:19 > 0:12:23empathy for anybody who wants to come into this country who is at
0:12:24 > 0:12:27fear for their life, but what about our NHS? What about social care? We
0:12:28 > 0:12:36are absolutely on our knees. We cannot take any more people. And
0:12:37 > 0:12:39you, sir. Is it not completely wrong that Theresa May is willing to turn
0:12:40 > 0:12:46her back on child refugees but willing to lay out the red carpet
0:12:47 > 0:12:51for somebody who is...? Ann Widdecombe, we may come too late
0:12:52 > 0:12:56later. We usually get round to Trump before the programme is over. It is
0:12:57 > 0:13:01a fact that there has been evidence of people trafficking. If you are
0:13:02 > 0:13:06taking Syrian refugees from the camps on the Syrian border, you know
0:13:07 > 0:13:08that that is not the case but, if they have come through Europe,
0:13:09 > 0:13:13sometimes several countries, and they have ended up in the camps at
0:13:14 > 0:13:18Calais, quite if you of them will have been trafficked, they will be
0:13:19 > 0:13:22exploited, not the children, the adults will be exploiting the
0:13:23 > 0:13:25situation. All the Home Secretary is saying is that there have been
0:13:26 > 0:13:29representations from councils, that we have a huge duty to those
0:13:30 > 0:13:32children when they come in, and so we have to make sure that we get it
0:13:33 > 0:13:36right of who we bring in. APPLAUSE
0:13:37 > 0:13:42Briefly, if you would, because we have many questions. My council
0:13:43 > 0:13:48asked for volunteers to help with settling the refugee children and
0:13:49 > 0:13:53now they have told us that they are inundated with volunteers to help
0:13:54 > 0:14:00and they haven't got any children. Which council is that? Devon County
0:14:01 > 0:14:03Council. Really? Obviously, two points have been raised of great
0:14:04 > 0:14:05importance that need checking. We must go on, because we have many
0:14:06 > 0:14:06other questions. We're in Glasgow next week
0:14:07 > 0:14:09and the week after we'll be in Stoke-on-Trent, on the night
0:14:10 > 0:14:33of the by-election in that city. James Sharples, please. Is it fair
0:14:34 > 0:14:37to refer to people who back Brexit as Jihadis? This is Claire Perry
0:14:38 > 0:14:42sitting on my right here, this is her quote. The tone of these debates
0:14:43 > 0:14:47sometimes borders on the hysterical. I feel sometimes I'm sitting with
0:14:48 > 0:14:53colleagues who're like Jihadis in their support for a hard Brexit. No
0:14:54 > 0:14:57Brexit is hard enough. They are saying be gone your evil Europeans,
0:14:58 > 0:15:02we never want you to darken our doors again. Anne Widdecombe, what
0:15:03 > 0:15:06do you make of that? If there was anything hysterical, it was project
0:15:07 > 0:15:12fear during the Brexit campaign. APPLAUSE.
0:15:13 > 0:15:15There was a completely cynical attempt to scare people into voting
0:15:16 > 0:15:19remain. I'm very proud of the British people that they turned
0:15:20 > 0:15:23round and said, no, actually, we are going to go with what we believe is
0:15:24 > 0:15:27right and voted Brexit. I was a Brexiter, I still am. I do not
0:15:28 > 0:15:33consider myself any sort of Jihadi, but I don't believe that Claire does
0:15:34 > 0:15:39either. I quite agree. James, I mean, please, I'm really glad to
0:15:40 > 0:15:43clarify that this was a specific point made for colleagues who have
0:15:44 > 0:15:50fought a guerrilla war, if you like, on this for 40 years who now will
0:15:51 > 0:15:54countenance no conversation... Who were you referring to? I wouldn't
0:15:55 > 0:15:59dream of doing that, but the point is... I am sitting with colleagues
0:16:00 > 0:16:05who're like Jihadis, you said, and you won't say who they are? Using
0:16:06 > 0:16:11the phrase Jihadi, it was a long and heated debate, but given what they
0:16:12 > 0:16:17can and do in terms of atrocities, that was not a well chosen way to
0:16:18 > 0:16:21say it. We are all Brexiteers now, the country voted for it, there is
0:16:22 > 0:16:25overwhelming support for it. No thanks to you. Overwhelming support
0:16:26 > 0:16:33for the House of Commons. What do you mean, we are all Brexiteers, are
0:16:34 > 0:16:38we all Brexiteers now? No, we are not. The country voted for it, we
0:16:39 > 0:16:42are going to come out of the current relationship with Europe, but that
0:16:43 > 0:16:46does not mean in my view that we have given anybody carte blanche to
0:16:47 > 0:16:49come up with a dreadful deal for the UK. The problem with some who've
0:16:50 > 0:17:00campaigned for many years on this, is that they don't want to have that
0:17:01 > 0:17:04conversation. OK. Why is it 40 years of a guerrilla war instead of 40
0:17:05 > 0:17:07years of a steadfast campaign. There was a 40-year fight to abolish
0:17:08 > 0:17:11slavery, there was a 40-year fight to get out of Europe and there's
0:17:12 > 0:17:16nothing wrong with that. Billy Bragg? I'm not sure I would have
0:17:17 > 0:17:22used that turn of phrase but there is certainly a strain among the more
0:17:23 > 0:17:28convinced Brexiteers that the rest should shut up and just let 'em get
0:17:29 > 0:17:31on with it. I'm afraid I don't think democracy is worth the name
0:17:32 > 0:17:39democracy if it can't change its mind. I think when we voted on this
0:17:40 > 0:17:44in June, the prospect of leaving the European for those people who voted
0:17:45 > 0:17:49for them, but the prospect of leaving the European Union and going
0:17:50 > 0:17:54out on to the high seas, the seas looked relatively calm going out
0:17:55 > 0:17:59towards the US particularly, that seemed a relatively good idea. But
0:18:00 > 0:18:02now if Brexit means Trump as it may well do, I really think that... It
0:18:03 > 0:18:08means the world. ALL SPEAK AT ONCE.
0:18:09 > 0:18:12Brexit means the world. If the Brexiters let us speak, we might be
0:18:13 > 0:18:17able to possibly put our point of view across.
0:18:18 > 0:18:24My point is this... OK. Peter whittle? Can I just finish my point?
0:18:25 > 0:18:28Briefly. You've made it. As we look out across towards the Atlantic, the
0:18:29 > 0:18:34seas are becoming so rough that some levers are starting to feel like
0:18:35 > 0:18:38chief Brady in Jaws and they may be thinking, you know what, we need a
0:18:39 > 0:18:42bigger boat. The some point that the European relationship... Thank you,
0:18:43 > 0:18:48Billy. Peter? This is absolute nonsense. This is an alternative
0:18:49 > 0:18:53reality. The fact is, if you want real nastiness, if you want real
0:18:54 > 0:18:58viciousness, then you should have been on the campaign like I was. I
0:18:59 > 0:19:03was on the River Thames, if you remember, that famous incident where
0:19:04 > 0:19:07Bob Geldof came with his millionaire friends, he made signs and swore at
0:19:08 > 0:19:11fishermen who'd come because they were trying to protect their living.
0:19:12 > 0:19:20That was the real nastiness and extreme it. . -- extremism. The
0:19:21 > 0:19:24woman in the red dress? Something Anne said earlier. She said the
0:19:25 > 0:19:29British people said that they wanted Brexit, but when you say British
0:19:30 > 0:19:34people, I think you're missing out the amount of under 16s that
0:19:35 > 0:19:40actually didn't get a vote. I mean, I'm 17, I was 16 when the referendum
0:19:41 > 0:19:44happened. I really didn't want to leave the EU and it's still
0:19:45 > 0:19:50happened. People like me aren't very happy about it. If your side of the
0:19:51 > 0:19:56argument had won, you would be expecting us to accept that and to
0:19:57 > 0:20:01get on with it. APPLAUSE.
0:20:02 > 0:20:09Nigel Farage said if it was 52-48 against, the battle would have
0:20:10 > 0:20:13carried on. You would you would expect us to accept it. I expect
0:20:14 > 0:20:16them to accept it. Bill aye Bragg said democracy is about being able
0:20:17 > 0:20:21to change your mind and we did. There was a referendum in 1975. And
0:20:22 > 0:20:26I changed my mind. We should be able to leave. That doesn't mean it stops
0:20:27 > 0:20:29now. The point is democracy is an ongoing debate. Now that Article 50
0:20:30 > 0:20:32has been triggered, we are going to have a two-year debate about what
0:20:33 > 0:20:35kind of Europe we are going to be part of. Don't expect us to siton
0:20:36 > 0:20:45our hands and be quiet because you won. No, hold on. Owen Smith hasn't
0:20:46 > 0:20:50spoken yet. Owen Smith? Thank you. I was sat in the debate opposite
0:20:51 > 0:20:57Claire when she made her remark and I'm quite par tomorrow a bit of
0:20:58 > 0:21:03blunt speaking but even I blanched. She's apologised for it now. She
0:21:04 > 0:21:09has, it was in debate and it was meant to be a joke. The point she
0:21:10 > 0:21:13was make was well made in as much as this has been a 30-year Civil War
0:21:14 > 0:21:18within the Tory party. What about your party now? If you let me say a
0:21:19 > 0:21:22few words, the reason we have ended up with a referendum and the
0:21:23 > 0:21:28outcome, is the Tory party, it was to settle a war within the family.
0:21:29 > 0:21:33No, it wasn't. Unfortunately, we have ended up with the awful set of
0:21:34 > 0:21:38circumstances we now face which is either the rock hard Brexit, us
0:21:39 > 0:21:43being out of the single market and the customs union. Or worse, what we
0:21:44 > 0:21:48now now is likely to happen if we don't get a good deal, simply
0:21:49 > 0:21:54falling out of the European Union on world trade. It cost this country
0:21:55 > 0:22:00?45 billion, the last GDP. You said it was to solve a problem in the
0:22:01 > 0:22:04Tory party. Are you saying the 52% or whatever it was, the figure that
0:22:05 > 0:22:08voted to leave, that they shouldn't have had their voice heard, that it
0:22:09 > 0:22:14was only because of some problem in the Tory party that the issue arose
0:22:15 > 0:22:18and we would have been happy to carry on with 52% against what you
0:22:19 > 0:22:22were doing? I'm saying the reason we ended up with a referendum was David
0:22:23 > 0:22:25Cameron needed... We are not talking about the reason, what about the way
0:22:26 > 0:22:30people voted? You asked about whether we ended up with a
0:22:31 > 0:22:35referendum because of the Tory party, my answer to that is yes. I
0:22:36 > 0:22:38didn't say that, I said would you have ignored the feeling expressed
0:22:39 > 0:22:42if there hadn't have been a referendum? If Labour won the last
0:22:43 > 0:22:48election, we wouldn't have been having a referendum on this
0:22:49 > 0:22:52absolutely complicated, multifaceted incredibly important... Did you want
0:22:53 > 0:22:57a second referendum, you don't accept the result? We ended up with
0:22:58 > 0:23:01a choice that was bindery where a lot of people were lied to and let
0:23:02 > 0:23:11down by the nature of the debate. You are not in the House of Commons.
0:23:12 > 0:23:14You can't make a speech. But very briefly, why not a second
0:23:15 > 0:23:18referendum, you don't believe people got it right? I think Brexit will be
0:23:19 > 0:23:22a disaster for the economy and we need to think much harder about what
0:23:23 > 0:23:32it's going to look like for our children and for my constituents.
0:23:33 > 0:23:35Peter whittle? Owen, on this programme, last year, you said
0:23:36 > 0:23:38exactly, and I've got the quote here, that basically you would
0:23:39 > 0:23:42actually ignore the vote, you would absolutely ignore the vote. Again,
0:23:43 > 0:23:49we've got Claire here basically part of a political class is doing
0:23:50 > 0:23:52everything it can to delay and prevaricate and the fact is - let me
0:23:53 > 0:23:59finish... Everybody is asking to get in. Now you've got to be brief. Anne
0:24:00 > 0:24:02next? You are treating people like they are stupid, they knew exactly
0:24:03 > 0:24:09what they were voting for. APPLAUSE.
0:24:10 > 0:24:14This is a condescending argument we are having now. Anne? Owen's
0:24:15 > 0:24:17position is very clear. We will have a referendum if you don't give us
0:24:18 > 0:24:22the answer we want we'll have another one.
0:24:23 > 0:24:28APPLAUSE. Claire? We have a mandate. We have a
0:24:29 > 0:24:31process, we have a strong leader. Actually, as time goes on, I'm
0:24:32 > 0:24:36increasingly convinced we can get a good deal. And by the way, the one
0:24:37 > 0:24:40Ukip MP in the House of Commons hasn't bothered to speak on this
0:24:41 > 0:24:47issue in any of the hours of debates we've just had. He doesn't want to
0:24:48 > 0:24:51talk to politicians, he is not interested, it's grandstanding. The
0:24:52 > 0:24:56woman in the second row, let us hear from some members of the audience,
0:24:57 > 0:25:01and then you? I think we'll only get true democracy when we get out of
0:25:02 > 0:25:06the EU. For thousands of years, Britain has ruled in a wonderful
0:25:07 > 0:25:12way. We've been alighted to the world. Now that we are trying to get
0:25:13 > 0:25:17out of this stupid EU organisation, all this sort of thing that Owen
0:25:18 > 0:25:21Smith keeps saying which I'm absolutely sick of hearing, you
0:25:22 > 0:25:28whinging all the time, accept it, Owen.
0:25:29 > 0:25:32APPLAUSE. The Remoaner in Chief. My title
0:25:33 > 0:25:36apparently. The woman sitting here? Thank you. Could I please just urge
0:25:37 > 0:25:40everyone to stick to the question and practical ways that we can deal
0:25:41 > 0:25:46with the situation that is inevitable. Brexit is happening and
0:25:47 > 0:25:50I think on both sides I know you are doing fantastic points but please
0:25:51 > 0:25:55could you not say that, oh, this is why Trump is in power or that...
0:25:56 > 0:25:57It's ridiculous. Or go over the Brexit arguments again. Could we
0:25:58 > 0:25:59focus on how we are going to do this.
0:26:00 > 0:26:04APPLAUSE. All right. I'm going to move on
0:26:05 > 0:26:09because we have got many other questions. Yes? We are going to have
0:26:10 > 0:26:13a special programme about the negotiations I think - I'm not sure
0:26:14 > 0:26:17yet if we can get the right people together - to talk about your point
0:26:18 > 0:26:20about where we go from here. But it's 25 minutes into the programme
0:26:21 > 0:26:23and we haven't mentioned the subject the BBC has been talking about all
0:26:24 > 0:26:26week. I didn't want to do it at the top because all the news bulletins
0:26:27 > 0:26:32seem to do it at the top, which is the NHS, but Sarah Bell, your
0:26:33 > 0:26:38question? If one of your elderly relatives was rushed into hospital
0:26:39 > 0:26:45tonight, how confident are you that they would get a bed or a stretcher
0:26:46 > 0:26:50in a corridor? Owen Smith? Well, one of my elderly relatives was rushed
0:26:51 > 0:26:54into hospital in Wales not that long ago and she's had excellent care and
0:26:55 > 0:26:59I think the vast majority of people who go into the NHS - I was there
0:27:00 > 0:27:02with my son a couple of weeks ago in A, he got excellent care. That is
0:27:03 > 0:27:06not to say that everybody does and there is quite clearly a massive
0:27:07 > 0:27:10crisis in the NHS, in particular in respect of A, we've got far too
0:27:11 > 0:27:15many people waiting far too long in all parts of the UK. We've clearly
0:27:16 > 0:27:20got a problem of under-funding in the NHS. It's going backwards. The
0:27:21 > 0:27:25gap between our competitor nations across Europe, what they spend on
0:27:26 > 0:27:29health versus what we spend, the getting larger unfortunately. That
0:27:30 > 0:27:34is only going to be compounded, I'm afraid, by the extra costs we are
0:27:35 > 0:27:38going to have in this country, in my view, as a result of Brexit. So I'm
0:27:39 > 0:27:40not confident everybody gets a good deal but we need desperately to
0:27:41 > 0:27:44invest in our NHS and turn it around. We could do that but we need
0:27:45 > 0:27:48to get much more radical, in my view we need to start thinking about new
0:27:49 > 0:27:51ways to find additional resources for the NHS, stop hearing the Tories
0:27:52 > 0:27:55tell us that they have pumped in all this extra money - they haven't, we
0:27:56 > 0:28:01are going backwards and we need to do something about it.
0:28:02 > 0:28:04APPLAUSE. Anne Widdecombe, is it true that one
0:28:05 > 0:28:11of the figures that emerged this week, that the NHS costs ten times
0:28:12 > 0:28:14what it costs I think 60 years ago, in other words it just goes like
0:28:15 > 0:28:17this and this and this? Yes. That is what I would like to address. You
0:28:18 > 0:28:22have made my point for me. I didn't mean to do that. I really do want to
0:28:23 > 0:28:27make the point which is this - it's high time that we had in this
0:28:28 > 0:28:30country a mature debate about how we are going to fund health in the
0:28:31 > 0:28:39future. APPLAUSE.
0:28:40 > 0:28:44We really need a grown-up debate, no political cowardness or posturing.
0:28:45 > 0:28:47The Health Service was set off on three completely false premises we
0:28:48 > 0:28:51may seem silly now but did not at the time that, as we all got
0:28:52 > 0:28:54healthier, demand would decline. That was the first one. That the
0:28:55 > 0:28:59demographics would stay roughly the same. We have now got 15,000
0:29:00 > 0:29:03centenarians. And that we'd be able to meet a very large proportion of
0:29:04 > 0:29:07it from what was then called the stamp, the national insurance. All
0:29:08 > 0:29:13those three principles have proved wrong. Now we've got a choice. Every
0:29:14 > 0:29:16single Government with the exception of the Callaghan Government, every
0:29:17 > 0:29:20single Government since the war has increased spending on the NHS in
0:29:21 > 0:29:26real terms. We have committed another ?10 billion. And it's never
0:29:27 > 0:29:30enough because demand heads towards infinity with each surge of medical
0:29:31 > 0:29:34and surgical science. We need a grown-up debate. What the options
0:29:35 > 0:29:39are, have a look at what some other countries do and all the spending
0:29:40 > 0:29:43isn't public spending, Owen. Have a look at what other countries do,
0:29:44 > 0:29:46debate what we could do, then we can debate out of those options the most
0:29:47 > 0:29:51likely and then we can debate how to get there from here. I said all of
0:29:52 > 0:29:53this in 1998 and if we'd started then we might have a different
0:29:54 > 0:30:05Health Service now. Billy Bragg. I feel sure they would
0:30:06 > 0:30:09get the best service possible, because I think the staff and NHS do
0:30:10 > 0:30:13an incredible job under very difficult circumstances. We put them
0:30:14 > 0:30:17in an invidious position where they have to make life and death
0:30:18 > 0:30:21decisions and tell families that they are not where they should be
0:30:22 > 0:30:26because we need better funding. You have to ask yourself what the
0:30:27 > 0:30:30priorities of the NHS are. In Torbay, they have cut 32 beds from
0:30:31 > 0:30:37Torbay hospital. There are 34 beds in the community hospitals in
0:30:38 > 0:30:41painting, Dartmouth, bogey Tracey Ashburton. The reason given for
0:30:42 > 0:30:46closing the beds in Torbay hospital was that they are sending the care
0:30:47 > 0:30:50into the community, which is a good idea, but you'd think, at a time
0:30:51 > 0:30:54when there is a lack of beds in the National Health Service, they would
0:30:55 > 0:30:58do that but keep up the beds to take up the slack, but they haven't. So
0:30:59 > 0:31:07is this just a cost-cutting exercise? If so, then we have to ask
0:31:08 > 0:31:11ourselves why the British government spends a lower percentage of GDP in
0:31:12 > 0:31:14the European Union average on health, less than Germany and
0:31:15 > 0:31:19France. What do the French and Germans do that allows them to spend
0:31:20 > 0:31:26more money than we do, despite the amount of money that has already
0:31:27 > 0:31:31been spent? If an elderly relative went in, they would be part of the
0:31:32 > 0:31:36unprecedented demand we have seen, 2.5 million more people went to A
0:31:37 > 0:31:41this year. The NHS has never been busier and never had as much money,
0:31:42 > 0:31:47and we will spend half ?1 trillion over this Parliament on the NHS. I
0:31:48 > 0:31:52have to say, I am with Ann. For too long we have sat in our silos
0:31:53 > 0:31:55shouted at each other. Clearly more money is important, and the NHS
0:31:56 > 0:31:59asked for ?10 billion and they were given it, but we have too many
0:32:00 > 0:32:04people going in the front door. We know that 30% of those going to A
0:32:05 > 0:32:07could be held in a different way. And too many people stay in
0:32:08 > 0:32:12hospital. One thing to be proud of is that your council has one of the
0:32:13 > 0:32:19best rates in the country of not leaving people stuck in hospital.
0:32:20 > 0:32:22What about pharmacies? What about GPs and social care? There is all
0:32:23 > 0:32:26this money circulating in the system, and frankly it is time to
0:32:27 > 0:32:35stop treating the NHS is like a political football and treated as a
0:32:36 > 0:32:40precious national asset. You can't just keep spending to infinity. You
0:32:41 > 0:32:46have to use that money wisely to make sure that those who really need
0:32:47 > 0:32:50it get it. What I wish you would do if you were leader is come and have
0:32:51 > 0:32:55a conversation about the right way. This is our most precious national
0:32:56 > 0:33:00asset and we have doubled to -- we have to improve and protect it. The
0:33:01 > 0:33:06truth is that the percentage of GDP went up under Labour from 6% to 8%,
0:33:07 > 0:33:14and it's gone down. It has gone down. Has it not gone up? When
0:33:15 > 0:33:18Labour came to power... Ann Widdecombe said there was never
0:33:19 > 0:33:24designed to be this kind of service, and that's the problem. When Labour
0:33:25 > 0:33:29came to power, 39 billion was being spent. When we left, it was 112
0:33:30 > 0:33:38billion. And you haven't solved the problem. It's gone down as a net
0:33:39 > 0:33:43proportion of GDP. That is what happens every time we talk about the
0:33:44 > 0:33:52NHS. That always say they spend more, Labour say they don't. If a
0:33:53 > 0:33:56pain in the butt. The truth actually is not in either of those
0:33:57 > 0:33:59contentions. If you look at the figures, which I have looked at
0:34:00 > 0:34:07every week, neither side is making the point accurately. The woman in
0:34:08 > 0:34:12green. Yes, you. I am gravely concerned, as Billy was saying, that
0:34:13 > 0:34:15we have the closure of four local hospitals. I grew up in Dartmouth. I
0:34:16 > 0:34:23have many relatives that have been treated in that hospital. In Torbay?
0:34:24 > 0:34:27Dartmouth cottage hospital, as they became elderly and need care. It's a
0:34:28 > 0:34:32long way to travel for them to get to Torbay, a long way for relatives
0:34:33 > 0:34:38to travel. Personally, I would be very keen on paying extra money in
0:34:39 > 0:34:47to preserve that. -- extra money in taxes. You in the front. Obviously,
0:34:48 > 0:34:52with elderly people moving down from everywhere else in the country,
0:34:53 > 0:34:57coming down to Devon, shutting small hospitals is probably going to be a
0:34:58 > 0:35:01big mistake. Obviously, they can't get too big hospitals, only small
0:35:02 > 0:35:05hospitals in my grandad, who only passed away a couple of years ago,
0:35:06 > 0:35:12could only get to Dartmouth because he couldn't make the journey to
0:35:13 > 0:35:16bigger hospitals. To Torquay? Yeah, Dartmouth hospital. The only light
0:35:17 > 0:35:23Dartmouth hospital so he wanted to go there. That was where the
0:35:24 > 0:35:26treatment was. -- he only liked. The argument always is that, as
0:35:27 > 0:35:36treatment gets more sophisticated, you need bigger and better
0:35:37 > 0:35:41hospitals. You need both. Can I ask the lady who asked the question, you
0:35:42 > 0:35:45said, would I be confident if an elderly relative, I had to take them
0:35:46 > 0:35:48into hospital? I would be confident in the quality of service but I
0:35:49 > 0:35:52think what you're talking about is the fact that we might have the --
0:35:53 > 0:35:57we might have to face being on a stretcher in a hallway for a long
0:35:58 > 0:36:00time because of the enormous strain. I have just been in Cumbria. They
0:36:01 > 0:36:05are closing a maternity ward there of a hospital, which means that
0:36:06 > 0:36:09women who are about to give birth are going to have to travel 40
0:36:10 > 0:36:14miles. That could be a matter of life and death. I would say this.
0:36:15 > 0:36:19Yes, the situation has changed in this country. People live longer, so
0:36:20 > 0:36:24we've got to deal with it. We've got to adapt the National Health
0:36:25 > 0:36:28Service. I mean, probably expand it. We need a properly integrated
0:36:29 > 0:36:34National Health Service and social care service, integrated. And I
0:36:35 > 0:36:40would say this as well. It is a matter of priorities in this
0:36:41 > 0:36:44country. What I find at the moment morally reprehensible is that we are
0:36:45 > 0:36:50facing a situation in this wonderful institution of the NHS at the same
0:36:51 > 0:36:53time that we are sending abroad about 12 to ?16 billion a year in
0:36:54 > 0:37:02foreign aid. I would like to see that going into the National Health
0:37:03 > 0:37:09Service. So Ukip's policy is to abolish foreign aid? No, we would
0:37:10 > 0:37:12reduce it. It is ring-fenced at the moment. It is done by an act of
0:37:13 > 0:37:18Parliament, but you can repeal those. You have got that and you
0:37:19 > 0:37:21have also got for getting on for ?2 billion in health tourism. These
0:37:22 > 0:37:29things have to be looked at and clamped down on. Is Ukip's policy to
0:37:30 > 0:37:33abolish overseas aid or not? Not completely, we would bring it down
0:37:34 > 0:37:39to about the rug .2%, so part of it would go into the NHS, about 3
0:37:40 > 0:37:47billion and rising. -- about 0.2% of it would go into the NHS. The rest
0:37:48 > 0:37:51would go into social care. The NHS and social care should be
0:37:52 > 0:37:55integrated, as I know from my own experience with my elderly parents,
0:37:56 > 0:37:59when I was dealing with the NHS and the local authorities and it was
0:38:00 > 0:38:05very bureaucratically difficult. You are looking dubious. Yes, you were.
0:38:06 > 0:38:11The National Audit Office reported this week that the health and social
0:38:12 > 0:38:14care integration is not necessarily the silver bullet that they say it
0:38:15 > 0:38:19should be. They have invested 5 billion and they have lost money,
0:38:20 > 0:38:25because, you know what? Admissions have increased and the savings
0:38:26 > 0:38:29haven't been there. I have worked in the NHS for over 40 years. Saving
0:38:30 > 0:38:35money, that's my job in procurement. We have got a wonderful procurement
0:38:36 > 0:38:38group within the south-west of England, and we invest millions of
0:38:39 > 0:38:45pounds back into the NHS, but the bureaucracy against us from getting
0:38:46 > 0:38:51good value for money. -- the bureaucracy prevents us. Briefly,
0:38:52 > 0:38:57how do you mean? There are so many layers of bureaucracy now. I have
0:38:58 > 0:39:02been in the NHS for 40 years. Every year, especially since 1986, when
0:39:03 > 0:39:05general management came into the NHS, management has increased layer
0:39:06 > 0:39:11overlay. To get a decision made within this south-west area in which
0:39:12 > 0:39:19I work takes months. Sometimes even years. So it isn't possible to get
0:39:20 > 0:39:25that quote of efficiencies...? And do you think the answer is more
0:39:26 > 0:39:32spending...? No. When Andrew Lansley reorganised, we were hopeful that he
0:39:33 > 0:39:39would reorganise bureaucracy and eliminate. Instead, he has created
0:39:40 > 0:39:43another wave. I don't think the man behind you is green. The problem
0:39:44 > 0:39:48with the NHS is there is far too much money wasted spent an
0:39:49 > 0:39:52administration, there is poor management, but also it is the
0:39:53 > 0:39:55general public. You have people turning up at A that don't
0:39:56 > 0:40:00necessarily need to be there. Not only that, as a country, since the
0:40:01 > 0:40:05Olympic Games in 2012, we had this little part of the opening ceremony
0:40:06 > 0:40:08going on about the Olympic Games. There was this wonderful parade of
0:40:09 > 0:40:13people wandering around the Olympic ring. I tell you what, if we had as
0:40:14 > 0:40:19many doctors and nurses on our boards as there were people parading
0:40:20 > 0:40:22around that ring, that could be a problem solved. -- doctors and
0:40:23 > 0:40:27nurses on our wards. The other thing is, why don't they start going
0:40:28 > 0:40:31abroad, recovering some of the money? People coming over here for
0:40:32 > 0:40:38cosmetic surgery, things like that, it's all going on. A lot of money
0:40:39 > 0:40:42could be got back. You on the left. I'd like to divert this to the
0:40:43 > 0:40:48deputy leader of Ukip. Paul Nuttall, your leader, said he'd like to
0:40:49 > 0:40:54privatise the NHS. No, he didn't. This is total fantasy. He actually
0:40:55 > 0:41:03praised the Tories for bringing a whiff of privatisation. All right.
0:41:04 > 0:41:08Let him answer. Paul made some suggestions about certain aspects of
0:41:09 > 0:41:12the NHS procurement and suchlike, a few years ago. Since then, first of
0:41:13 > 0:41:17all, he has changed his mind on that. Secondly and more importantly,
0:41:18 > 0:41:24we have never had that as our policy. In our 2015 manifesto, we
0:41:25 > 0:41:28dedicated to the NHS being free at point of delivery. That has always
0:41:29 > 0:41:34been the case with Ukip and it will carry being the case. The manifesto,
0:41:35 > 0:41:38in 2015 considered the best, actually it was the only one that
0:41:39 > 0:41:45was fully costed. The woman there and then we will move on. Even if we
0:41:46 > 0:41:50cut foreign aid, for example, if we really want to integrate social care
0:41:51 > 0:41:55along with the NHS, we really want to keep up with growing demand,
0:41:56 > 0:41:59surely we have to raise taxes quite significantly in order to fully
0:42:00 > 0:42:04costed this? From reading the Conservative manifesto, they are the
0:42:05 > 0:42:08party of low taxes, so surely there will be an incentive for them not to
0:42:09 > 0:42:13raise taxes and therefore not carry out these proposals suggested on the
0:42:14 > 0:42:18floor. There is a fundamental problem we have to face with the
0:42:19 > 0:42:23NHS, and it's to do with all of us. We have voted continuously over the
0:42:24 > 0:42:28last 30 years for parties, Labour and Conservatives, I am afraid,
0:42:29 > 0:42:32saying, we are going to have great NHS and great social care and low
0:42:33 > 0:42:36taxes. We have kid ourselves. As soon as we wake up from that dream
0:42:37 > 0:42:48and recognise we will only get the services we pay for, we can start
0:42:49 > 0:42:55sorted out. No, you can't go first. Billy, taxes. 1p on income tax
0:42:56 > 0:42:59raises? We are spending what on the NHS? And it's not going to solve all
0:43:00 > 0:43:02the problems. You can do all that has been mentioned, more taxes,
0:43:03 > 0:43:09reducing foreign aid, getting on top of health tourism, and you still
0:43:10 > 0:43:13won't solve the problem, folks. We need a proper debate about the
0:43:14 > 0:43:22long-term. How much does 1p on income tax rates? 1.5 billion. And
0:43:23 > 0:43:32corporation tax, how much would be raised from that? All right, Claire.
0:43:33 > 0:43:42The NHS in Wales is run by the Labour Party. Oh, come on... No,
0:43:43 > 0:43:51wait. Political football! Offside! I don't want to see the NHS used as a
0:43:52 > 0:43:58political football. Owen, that is the stay list political argument.
0:43:59 > 0:44:05North of the border, the NHS is run by the SNP. In Britain, its run at
0:44:06 > 0:44:10Westminster. Every seat in England, in every part of the UK, we are
0:44:11 > 0:44:14facing the same pressures. We can argue all that we like about how
0:44:15 > 0:44:22much money is needed, which party would spend more, who has got the
0:44:23 > 0:44:25right numbers. Ann is right. If we want an NHS that will be there when
0:44:26 > 0:44:30we all need it and works for the millions of staff who work in it,
0:44:31 > 0:44:33sometimes working in horrific conditions, we have to grow up and
0:44:34 > 0:44:41have a proper debate and stop waving party flags around. It will be a
0:44:42 > 0:44:50miracle if it happens! I'm going to go on.
0:44:51 > 0:44:58The chances of an unpolitical debate about the NHS is about as... Well, a
0:44:59 > 0:45:02question from Justin Chan, please. Should Donald Trump be allowed to
0:45:03 > 0:45:10address the House of Parliaments? Claire Perry? That's really unfair.
0:45:11 > 0:45:13You are asking me to criticise the speaker commit Harry carry as he's
0:45:14 > 0:45:19the person who can speak in the chamber. The question is, should he
0:45:20 > 0:45:24be allowed to speak, you can do what you want with it? It's not Mr
0:45:25 > 0:45:28Speaker's entire decision. I'm interested to hear what he's got to
0:45:29 > 0:45:34say because I cannot imagine a person to be less fit to be the
0:45:35 > 0:45:38leader, personally, but it's not my decision, I didn't vote for him.
0:45:39 > 0:45:42It's my decision, I want to hear what he has to say. Maybe he will
0:45:43 > 0:45:47think Parliament is a civilising influence. A motion has been put
0:45:48 > 0:45:50down because John Bercow said he was strongly opposed to Trump speaking
0:45:51 > 0:45:56and there's been a motion put down by one of your colleagues, a vote of
0:45:57 > 0:46:01no-confidence because of his wholly inappropriate comments. How will you
0:46:02 > 0:46:04vote? I have to say, Mr Speaker has done some incredibly important
0:46:05 > 0:46:09things for Parliament. How will you vote... It's a much more modern
0:46:10 > 0:46:13place. I don't know yet, I shall have a look at the motion. I think
0:46:14 > 0:46:17for us to try to remove a speaker over something that he said would
0:46:18 > 0:46:20actually be really rather drastic and he's entitled to his opinion,
0:46:21 > 0:46:25perhaps he shouldn't have expressed them on this particular issue. Owen
0:46:26 > 0:46:28Smith, the other MP here? I don't think Trump should be given the
0:46:29 > 0:46:31honour of addressing both Houses of Parliament, I think it's very
0:46:32 > 0:46:36unusual for him to be offered that in the first couple of days of his
0:46:37 > 0:46:39presidency, normally US Presidents don't get to do that until they've
0:46:40 > 0:46:43been in the job for a little while. To be honest, I think it's more
0:46:44 > 0:46:46important than that, I wholly support what the speaker of the
0:46:47 > 0:46:50House of Commons said this week, I think Trump is someone who has
0:46:51 > 0:46:54unfortunately proved himself to be a racist and a misogynist and not in
0:46:55 > 0:46:58favour of the rule of law and I think we are better than that and
0:46:59 > 0:47:03therefore we shouldn't be affording him that honour.
0:47:04 > 0:47:06You in the third row? I think it's really important for someone like
0:47:07 > 0:47:10John Bercow who has a voice in this country to stand up for what is
0:47:11 > 0:47:19right and to oppose racism and sexism. So I don't think he should
0:47:20 > 0:47:25have a vote of no-confidence. OK. At the very back, the second row from
0:47:26 > 0:47:29the back with the dark hair? No, don't look at him, it's you. I would
0:47:30 > 0:47:32like to say, I completely disagree with Owen Smith and regardless of
0:47:33 > 0:47:35what we think about Donald Trump, at the end of the day she the President
0:47:36 > 0:47:37of the most powerful country in the world.
0:47:38 > 0:47:41APPLAUSE. With whom we share a special
0:47:42 > 0:47:47relationship and very briefly, I think it was John Stuart-Milne who
0:47:48 > 0:47:51said if the whole world minus one were of the country opinion, the
0:47:52 > 0:47:55whole world would have no right to silence that one person than that
0:47:56 > 0:47:59one person would have the right to silence mankind.
0:48:00 > 0:48:07APPLAUSE. Impressive. I'll use that in the
0:48:08 > 0:48:11next debate on Brexit. Impressive. Follow that if you can. I'll try.
0:48:12 > 0:48:15Very impressive. In answer to what you say, I'm not even sure that he's
0:48:16 > 0:48:19actually expressed or the White House has expressed a desire that he
0:48:20 > 0:48:24particularly cares about doing this. The question is about the speaker
0:48:25 > 0:48:28really. I fundamentally disagree on two levels. The speaker is in a
0:48:29 > 0:48:32great office of state, he's meant to be neutral. It's a bit like the
0:48:33 > 0:48:36Queen turning round and saying I don't like the look of him, I don't
0:48:37 > 0:48:40think I'll have him on a state visit. We wouldn't imagine the Queen
0:48:41 > 0:48:44doing that. It's actually a very, very important point that he's
0:48:45 > 0:48:50neutral and he's broken that. Also what I don't like is the fact that
0:48:51 > 0:48:57of the sheer inconsistencies, because a few years ago, he welcomed
0:48:58 > 0:49:01a man from Kuwait who bans Israelis and imprisons gays and all the rest
0:49:02 > 0:49:05of it. We talk about racism and sexism and all the rest of it.
0:49:06 > 0:49:09Basically, this sort of outrage we are seeing from the speaker and what
0:49:10 > 0:49:13he said is extremely selective, so you either do it with everyone or
0:49:14 > 0:49:15you do it with nobody, frankly I think...
0:49:16 > 0:49:23APPLAUSE. OK. Billy Bragg? I agree with
0:49:24 > 0:49:27speaker Bercow, I don't think you need to be a Monarchist to be
0:49:28 > 0:49:31offended by the sexist remarks he made about Princess Diana, nor do
0:49:32 > 0:49:34you need to be a Latin American to be offended by the racist remarks he
0:49:35 > 0:49:40made about Mexican people. APPLAUSE.
0:49:41 > 0:49:46One of the things that - I'm afraid it is the point Peter because...
0:49:47 > 0:49:50Neutral. He's the speaker of the House of Commons. It's also his job
0:49:51 > 0:49:57to decide, he has a veto on who speaks in the House. He doesn't. He
0:49:58 > 0:50:02does actually. He was asked his opinion and, as John Stewart-Milne
0:50:03 > 0:50:09said, he had the right to say what he's going to say. I'm going to
0:50:10 > 0:50:12finish by saying that by inviting Donald Trump to address Parliament,
0:50:13 > 0:50:16we are normalising that behaviour. I think if we are going to make a
0:50:17 > 0:50:20stand on this issue, we have to do it as the people. I'm disappointed
0:50:21 > 0:50:23that Theresa May went running over there, held his hand and offed him
0:50:24 > 0:50:29to shake hands with the Queen. I think he's put her in an invidious
0:50:30 > 0:50:35position. He's the President of the United States! It's ridiculous.
0:50:36 > 0:50:39If we share values with Trump, we need to stand up and show him what
0:50:40 > 0:50:41those values are that we all stand together for.
0:50:42 > 0:50:49APPLAUSE. The man in the white shirt? You,
0:50:50 > 0:50:55Sir? Well, there's clear inconsistency here because we had
0:50:56 > 0:51:00the President of China here in 2015. What did he say about Princess
0:51:01 > 0:51:05Diana, do you know? Pardon? What did he say about Princess Diana, do you
0:51:06 > 0:51:10know what he said? The point I'm making is that if the President of
0:51:11 > 0:51:16China can come here and he has an appalling record towards humanity,
0:51:17 > 0:51:21why can't Donald Trump? Anne Widdecombe, please? Right, first of
0:51:22 > 0:51:25all, the speaker should not have made the comments he made, John
0:51:26 > 0:51:29Bercow can say anything he likes but the speaker is constrained by
0:51:30 > 0:51:33commission and by the demands of his office.
0:51:34 > 0:51:39APPLAUSE. And he has state visits are a matter
0:51:40 > 0:51:42who the Queen invites on advice of her Government and John Bercow's
0:51:43 > 0:51:45made it clear that he shouldn't have said what he said without at least
0:51:46 > 0:51:49consulting the speaker of the Lords which he should do. This is both
0:51:50 > 0:51:57Houses of Parliament, not just one, so I think John was and I'm not
0:51:58 > 0:51:59attacking John, he's done a lot of things, I'm not sure modernisation
0:52:00 > 0:52:03is one of them, he's done a lot of important things but he got this one
0:52:04 > 0:52:06wrong. If somebody like the Chinese President, I'm very glad you
0:52:07 > 0:52:10mentioned him because I was certainly about to, I mean who
0:52:11 > 0:52:14actually you know imposed forced abortion and things like that? We
0:52:15 > 0:52:18are not normalising that when we have the President here, so why are
0:52:19 > 0:52:22we normalising what Donald Trump stands for? This is the
0:52:23 > 0:52:27democratically elected President of the United States. Indeed. One of
0:52:28 > 0:52:31our biggest allies. APPLAUSE.
0:52:32 > 0:52:37You up there? Wasn't it around the fact that the Chinese are bringing
0:52:38 > 0:52:40investment into Britain or Saudi Arabia were bringing investment into
0:52:41 > 0:52:45Britain, isn't it that they want Trump's money in Britain. Hope so.
0:52:46 > 0:52:49And so it isn't around whether or not people have a good record on
0:52:50 > 0:52:53human rights, it's about bringing money into the UK. A good thing or
0:52:54 > 0:52:59bad thing? It's not necessarily a bad thing. Life is what it is but
0:53:00 > 0:53:02let's not be hypocritical. Hear, hear, well done. You've got a
0:53:03 > 0:53:08president who's putting us at the front of the queue when it comes to
0:53:09 > 0:53:17trade agreements. You are holding your nose when it suits you. All
0:53:18 > 0:53:21right, fine. I have reservations about Trump, it's not really the
0:53:22 > 0:53:25point. The point here is that he's very favourable to this country,
0:53:26 > 0:53:28he's made it very, very clear, the guy before him said we were going to
0:53:29 > 0:53:31be at the back of the queue, right, this one is putting us at the front
0:53:32 > 0:53:35of the queue. That's a huge, huge opportunity. Lost money on
0:53:36 > 0:53:40enterprise though. A last question from Melvyn Jones, please?
0:53:41 > 0:53:47Does David Beckham deserve a Knighthood?
0:53:48 > 0:53:54I have to say, in 2002, we had this same question about Mick Jagger. Has
0:53:55 > 0:53:59he got one? He did get one, yes. I won't say what it said, it was very
0:54:00 > 0:54:03scurriless. I don't know about David Beckham, let us go into this one.
0:54:04 > 0:54:10Billy Bragg, I don't know what the issue is? The issue is honour, I'm
0:54:11 > 0:54:13not in favour of that system anyway, I don't think anybody should get a
0:54:14 > 0:54:19Knighthood. What does he want, he played for England, you know. I
0:54:20 > 0:54:24mean, he scored a goal in 2001 against Greece when we were 2-1 down
0:54:25 > 0:54:28deep into extra time. He scored with a free kick and got us into the
0:54:29 > 0:54:34World Cup finals, what more does he want? I had to choose between those
0:54:35 > 0:54:43things, I would go for playing for England. Don't we feel sorry for him
0:54:44 > 0:54:48though having his e-mails hacked, I wish I could read these things out
0:54:49 > 0:54:53but not on this programme! . I wouldn't mind if he gets a
0:54:54 > 0:54:57Knighthood. I object to the fact that he wants it rather too much. I
0:54:58 > 0:55:02think the great joy of the honours system is when Mrs Smith or Mrs
0:55:03 > 0:55:08Brown opens that wonderful envelope, is offering her an MBE and she's
0:55:09 > 0:55:12absolutely overwhelmed by it and never expected it and I think that
0:55:13 > 0:55:18is what our honours system is. APPLAUSE.
0:55:19 > 0:55:23You? The point is, who wants it more, David or Victoria? She got an
0:55:24 > 0:55:28OBE. She wants to be Lady Beckham. What do you think? You don't have
0:55:29 > 0:55:32strong views but you had your hand up? I have strong views, I just
0:55:33 > 0:55:35don't believe in having honours because I think people do what they
0:55:36 > 0:55:41do, they make money out of it and fantastic lives and all the rest of
0:55:42 > 0:55:45it. MBEs, little people? Did he even write the e-mails because I don't
0:55:46 > 0:55:48think he did. There is a lot of stuff going on around fake news and
0:55:49 > 0:55:54half-truths and all of that. Do you think this is fake news? I don't
0:55:55 > 0:56:00know. Do you think it is? I don't think it's fake news. Juliet Collie
0:56:01 > 0:56:04wanted to know if anybody had been taken in by fake news or been the
0:56:05 > 0:56:11victim of fake news? How would I know? Well, from what you might read
0:56:12 > 0:56:19in the papers, you presumably know what is true about yourself and what
0:56:20 > 0:56:24is fake? Let's not get extestential. I do actually agree with Anne about
0:56:25 > 0:56:28the unsung heroes. That is terribly important for people to get honours
0:56:29 > 0:56:33for the sort of work they do. Beckham we are talking about, with
0:56:34 > 0:56:3660 seconds left. Actually yes I thinkth I think he should, basically
0:56:37 > 0:56:43they are great ambassadors actually for this country, I really do. ? Do
0:56:44 > 0:56:48you? Yes. 60 seconds, not just for you, but to split up. Owen Smith?
0:56:49 > 0:56:53You get ten and you get 15. Go on? Yes is the short answer, he was a
0:56:54 > 0:56:56great English captain, great English player, very cultured right foot. I
0:56:57 > 0:57:01think he's also done loads for charity in the years since he left
0:57:02 > 0:57:06and I think many other sports people who've done less have got
0:57:07 > 0:57:08Knighthoods so why not? You in the multicoloured football shirt there?
0:57:09 > 0:57:12I think people should be recognised for the work that they do, so I do
0:57:13 > 0:57:15believe in the honours system but when stories come out about David
0:57:16 > 0:57:20Beckham it does make a mockery of it. Because he complained about not
0:57:21 > 0:57:25gelling one? Essentially he wanted it for publicity rather than the
0:57:26 > 0:57:29work he does. It's a decision for the committee who take all that
0:57:30 > 0:57:34stuff into account. One of the proudest stuff I get to do is
0:57:35 > 0:57:38writing supports for people who've worked with children or animals for
0:57:39 > 0:57:42a service where they can be recognised for honour. I think Anne
0:57:43 > 0:57:49Widdecombe would be a marvellous addition to the House of Lords. I
0:57:50 > 0:57:53do. I'm sorry. We need some more women.
0:57:54 > 0:57:58In view of her pantomime career, she should be a Dame first. Straight to
0:57:59 > 0:58:01Baroness. We need Lord Billy! Time's up!
0:58:02 > 0:58:12APPLAUSE. . He'd never take it. This list of
0:58:13 > 0:58:16flat trihas to sfop. Our hour is up. We are in Glasgow next week, then in
0:58:17 > 0:58:19Stoke-on-Trent on the night of the by-election the week after that. If
0:58:20 > 0:58:25you would like to come to Glasgow our to Stoke, there on the screen is
0:58:26 > 0:58:28the address. You can write to the e-mail address or call us on that
0:58:29 > 0:58:33telephone number. If you have been listening to all of this on Radio 5
0:58:34 > 0:58:37Live, the debate goes on until the early hours on Question Time extra
0:58:38 > 0:58:41time. But here, my thanks to our panel, to all of you who came to
0:58:42 > 0:58:45Torquay from Dartmouth and wherever. Thank you all for coming and from
0:58:46 > 0:58:47Question Time until next Thursday, good night.