:00:00. > :00:16.And on our panel tonight we have the Conservative Party's
:00:17. > :00:19.only MP north of the border, who has been Secretary
:00:20. > :00:24.of State for Scotland since 2015, David Mundell.
:00:25. > :00:26.We have the former director of the human rights organisation
:00:27. > :00:29.Liberty, made a peer by Jeremy Corbyn and now his shadow
:00:30. > :00:36.The Deputy First Minister of Scotland, who's been
:00:37. > :00:40.in the Scottish parliament since it was created, John Swinney.
:00:41. > :00:43.The crime writer who backed Scottish independence in 2014 and voted
:00:44. > :00:48.for Remain in the EU referendum, Val McDermid.
:00:49. > :00:50.And once head of media for the Liberal Democrats,
:00:51. > :00:52.now leading the free market think tank the Institute
:00:53. > :01:07.of Economic Affairs, and a Brexiteer, Mark Littlewood.
:01:08. > :01:11.And as always, from home, or wherever you are watching
:01:12. > :01:18.Text 83981, if you want to do it that way.
:01:19. > :01:21.Push the red button to see what others are saying.
:01:22. > :01:24.Keep the debate going as the programme progresses.
:01:25. > :01:29.Let's have our first question from Lesley Turan, please.
:01:30. > :01:38.Should Scots have the right to a second independence referendum?
:01:39. > :01:40.Should the Scots have the right to a second independence referendum
:01:41. > :01:46.Shami Chakrabarti, as a non-Scot, what do you think?
:01:47. > :01:49.Well, obviously I'm a non-Scot, so I'm not going to determine
:01:50. > :01:53.what people in Scotland want for their future.
:01:54. > :01:57.But I personally think that referenda in general can be very,
:01:58. > :02:02.very divisive moments in a society's life.
:02:03. > :02:13.We saw that in Scotland, in my case from outside.
:02:14. > :02:19.Goodness me, we saw that all over the United Kingdom.
:02:20. > :02:22.You know, the toxicity of that campaigning, on both sides,
:02:23. > :02:26.families split and not speaking over it, communities divided over it.
:02:27. > :02:30.Are we really in the mood for yet another referendum?
:02:31. > :02:41.For a start, I don't entirely recognise your portrayal
:02:42. > :02:43.of what happened in Scotland during the last referendum.
:02:44. > :02:51.I personally know of no families that have been divided
:02:52. > :02:53.and don't speak to each other any more.
:02:54. > :02:57.I have friends who were on the other side of the argument from me.
:02:58. > :03:00.We've had many vigorous discussions, and we are still friends, we still
:03:01. > :03:08.Both on the EU one and on independence?
:03:09. > :03:10.Yes, but principally on independence, that is
:03:11. > :03:16.What we had was a media storm of whipping up a frenzy of hatred
:03:17. > :03:19.and anger that was not reflected on the ground.
:03:20. > :03:22.Yes, there were extremists on both sides who were vile,
:03:23. > :03:26.repulsively and insulting and demeaning, but they were a tiny
:03:27. > :03:31.But the overwhelming majority of people in this country
:03:32. > :03:33.were voting on something they were passionate about,
:03:34. > :03:36.and not in a narrow, tartan, shortbread way,
:03:37. > :03:39.but passionate about for the future of this country going forward.
:03:40. > :03:42.And Shami, you saw, in England presumably you are talking about,
:03:43. > :03:45.divisions on the EU referendum that separated and split
:03:46. > :03:50.I've been told by friends they went through periods of not
:03:51. > :03:55.We saw a spike in hate crime, certainly, south
:03:56. > :04:08.We lost a bright young Labour MP in a hate killing.
:04:09. > :04:15.I do believe that sometimes there's a constitutional moment and you have
:04:16. > :04:21.to have a referendum, but I don't think this
:04:22. > :04:23.should happen every year in a country or society's life.
:04:24. > :04:29.I think there are lots of other issues that are very important now
:04:30. > :04:31.to securing equality, justice, fairness, schools,
:04:32. > :04:35.We will deal with the referendum and Brexit.
:04:36. > :04:38.You, in the third row, sir, what do you think?
:04:39. > :04:41.I think the question really points to a significant change in what is
:04:42. > :04:50.The whole issue of whether we were better together in the UK, and then
:04:51. > :04:56.a short while after we enter into a referendum to exit the EU.
:04:57. > :04:58.And I think the question that we have to face
:04:59. > :05:01.and address in Scotland now is whether we are better
:05:02. > :05:05.in a Brexiting UK, or whether we should
:05:06. > :05:09.have the opportunity to form our own destiny in the EU.
:05:10. > :05:11.And that's the question we should be addressing.
:05:12. > :05:20.In my view, the way that the Brexit
:05:21. > :05:25.situation has been handled, it seems to me that it is a drifting
:05:26. > :05:28.situation, where no one really knows where we should be.
:05:29. > :05:32.Scotland has very decisively voted in favour of remaining in the EU,
:05:33. > :05:35.and that's where our destiny should be, and that's what we should
:05:36. > :05:40.Scotland has been let down by the situation and we need
:05:41. > :05:43.to speak up and argue for another referendum.
:05:44. > :05:47.Quite a lot of other people have been let down in that sense as well.
:05:48. > :05:51.London voted to remain, like Scotland did.
:05:52. > :05:54.With respect to London and other parts of England,
:05:55. > :05:58.what we shouldn't forget here is that Scotland
:05:59. > :06:02.Scotland is a country and London is a city, and there
:06:03. > :06:11.I suppose the question is, should Scotland have the right
:06:12. > :06:15.to a second referendum and if so, when would you have it?
:06:16. > :06:18.For me, Scotland has a right to determine her own
:06:19. > :06:24.And that's a very basic point of self-determination for me.
:06:25. > :06:29.The question that Lesley has highlighted is, and the fact
:06:30. > :06:32.that she mentions the 62% for Remain in Scotland,
:06:33. > :06:36.reinforces the point the gentleman has just made,
:06:37. > :06:38.that Scotland and the rest of the United Kingdom very clearly
:06:39. > :06:41.are going in different directions in our thinking.
:06:42. > :06:43.And in that respect, I think people must be free
:06:44. > :06:47.to decide what is to be the future of our country.
:06:48. > :06:50.For our part, as a government, what we have tried to do
:06:51. > :06:55.since the referendum last June is to chart a course where we can
:06:56. > :06:59.respond to the decisions that people in Scotland have taken,
:07:00. > :07:03.the fact that we have argued for a different course.
:07:04. > :07:05.And to try to find a way forward with the UK
:07:06. > :07:11.And so far, we've got absolutely nowhere on that particular question.
:07:12. > :07:21.What concessions do you want made to Scotland that would fit
:07:22. > :07:25.in with that decision that was made by the UK?
:07:26. > :07:28.Or are you actually saying, we've got to get out of the UK?
:07:29. > :07:33.Are you frightened of having a referendum at the moment?
:07:34. > :07:39.The paper the Scottish Government published in December set out
:07:40. > :07:41.an approach whereby Scotland could retain our participation
:07:42. > :07:44.within the single market through membership of the European
:07:45. > :07:47.economic area, and that would see us maintaining our membership
:07:48. > :07:52.But Theresa May has slammed the door on that.
:07:53. > :07:54.She said we're coming out of the single market,
:07:55. > :07:58.we are all coming out of the single market, despite the fact that even
:07:59. > :08:00.many of the Leave campaigners were saying during the referendum,
:08:01. > :08:02.you don't have to leave the single market.
:08:03. > :08:06.She has voluntarily taken us to hard Brexit.
:08:07. > :08:08.So when are you going to have the referendum?
:08:09. > :08:11.We will pursue the negotiations we are having with the United Kingdom.
:08:12. > :08:14.But quite clearly, we've set out to the UK Government,
:08:15. > :08:16.if that does not get us to a satisfactory conclusion then
:08:17. > :08:18.the likelihood of a second independent referendum
:08:19. > :08:23.Do you agree with your former leader that the autumn of next year
:08:24. > :08:35.We will see what that produces but we have to look at the decisions
:08:36. > :08:38.the UK Government take and if we believe that is not
:08:39. > :08:40.producing an approach that will deliver for the people
:08:41. > :08:43.of Scotland, we have a right to take that issue to
:08:44. > :08:48.David Mundell, the Prime Minister said she wouldn't be triggering
:08:49. > :08:51.Article 50 until there's a UK approach and objectives
:08:52. > :08:56.It doesn't sound as if there is much of a UK approach here
:08:57. > :09:00.I'm disappointed to hear what John Swinney has had to say
:09:01. > :09:02.because he knows officials between the two governments
:09:03. > :09:05.are working all the time to look at how we can come
:09:06. > :09:12.I want us to have an agreed position, and if we take
:09:13. > :09:15.the Scottish Government's document, which I regard as a serious
:09:16. > :09:18.contribution to the debate, that document sets out a whole range
:09:19. > :09:23.of areas where we are actually in agreement.
:09:24. > :09:25.In agreement on areas like workers' rights,
:09:26. > :09:28.the status of EU citizens, in relation to criminal
:09:29. > :09:35.So there are a lot of areas in which we are in agreement.
:09:36. > :09:47.We want to ensure the status of EU citizens in the UK,
:09:48. > :09:54.and we want to ensure the status of British citizens in Europe.
:09:55. > :09:58.And that is a position on which I would have thought
:09:59. > :10:02.You have EU citizens who have absolutely no idea where they stand
:10:03. > :10:04.and are desperate for clarity and your government
:10:05. > :10:13.It's a very simple question to deliver.
:10:14. > :10:16.I'm not going to be lectured by somebody who was found out
:10:17. > :10:19.for delaying an announcement about the funding of European
:10:20. > :10:23.students so that it could be made at your party conference,
:10:24. > :10:27.rather than bringing certainty to those students.
:10:28. > :10:32.So don't lecture me on playing politics.
:10:33. > :10:37.I think the audience watching and this audience
:10:38. > :10:40.here would probably prefer it if you didn't play politics,
:10:41. > :10:47.I just ask you, where is the guarantee that the rights
:10:48. > :10:49.of EU citizens in the UK will be maintained?
:10:50. > :10:55.You've said it is up for negotiation and depends what happens in Europe.
:10:56. > :10:58.The Prime Minister has set out that it's a priority
:10:59. > :11:04.We want to be able to guarantee the rights of EU citizens,
:11:05. > :11:08.just as we want to be able to guarantee the rights of UK
:11:09. > :11:16.And on the issue of a referendum, if the SNP decide to go
:11:17. > :11:19.for a referendum, are you in favour of them having a referendum?
:11:20. > :11:23.My belief, as I have said many times, of course there could be
:11:24. > :11:27.The question is, should there be another independence referendum?
:11:28. > :11:33.And I am quite clear that the answer to that is decisively no.
:11:34. > :11:44.We had an independence referendum in in 2014.
:11:45. > :11:46.I don't quite share Val's perspective on it,
:11:47. > :11:49.although I welcome the fact that we had such an overwhelming
:11:50. > :11:56.There was a decisive result in that referendum.
:11:57. > :12:00.And now it is absolutely clear that the people of Scotland do not
:12:01. > :12:09.If John Swinney and Nicola Sturgeon are genuinely listening
:12:10. > :12:12.to the people of Scotland on their opinions about
:12:13. > :12:14.a referendum, they would take it off the table now.
:12:15. > :12:23.I just want to check one thing with you.
:12:24. > :12:26.The words of a senior figure in the cabinet, Michael Fallon,
:12:27. > :12:28.the Defence Secretary, when asked about this,
:12:29. > :12:31.whether there might be another, whether Westminster would allow
:12:32. > :12:40.My view is that the SNP should forget about having
:12:41. > :12:51.My question is if you agree with Michael Fallon.
:12:52. > :12:54.If the SNP asked for one, the Scottish Parliament ask for one,
:12:55. > :13:00.The position, and John Swinney knows this, is that the Westminster
:13:01. > :13:04.parliament would have to agree, because that is where
:13:05. > :13:08.the responsibility for the referendum lies.
:13:09. > :13:11.We haven't received a request to have another referendum,
:13:12. > :13:15.We must continue to argue that we should not have
:13:16. > :13:20.Mark, I'm going to bring you in the but I'd like to hear
:13:21. > :13:23.from other members of our audience since there are a lot of hands up.
:13:24. > :13:27.Let's hear your views, the woman in the third row.
:13:28. > :13:33.A lot of things have changed since the first referendum.
:13:34. > :13:35.A lot of people voted No because we were told our EU
:13:36. > :13:40.Also, I don't agree with the fact that you said it divided a country.
:13:41. > :13:43.That referendum sparked an interest in politics with a lot of young
:13:44. > :13:46.people and if you had ever been to a rally in George Square
:13:47. > :13:49.you would have seen thousands of people there camping peacefully.
:13:50. > :13:52.But if you watch the BBC News, you'd never have seen that
:13:53. > :13:56.And what's your view about another referendum?
:13:57. > :14:15.Shami hit the nail on the head when she said there's lots of other
:14:16. > :14:18.issues that have to be addressed in this country.
:14:19. > :14:20.However, that's exactly why there should be a second referendum.
:14:21. > :14:23.There's lots of issues in Scotland that have to be addressed
:14:24. > :14:25.and we are not being represented by the people in Westminster.
:14:26. > :14:33.We may have some difficult times in a short space
:14:34. > :14:35.of time with another referendum and there will be debate,
:14:36. > :14:38.but as Val has said, we will all come back to be friends.
:14:39. > :14:41.I have friends on the other side of the fence as well
:14:42. > :14:45.There is a bigger picture to look at here.
:14:46. > :14:47.We have things to address, problems to overcome and we can only
:14:48. > :14:51.do that if we've got control of our own destiny.
:14:52. > :15:06.Look, I think the lady nailed it in the third row over there.
:15:07. > :15:08.Almost the 2014 decision is moot because the constitutional framework
:15:09. > :15:11.that you undertoad prevailed then has changed enormously.
:15:12. > :15:14.In just over two years' time the Westminster Government will take
:15:15. > :15:17.us out of the European Union because, in aggregate,
:15:18. > :15:22.English votes and Welsh votes out trumps Scottish votes.
:15:23. > :15:24.The vote here was overwhelmingly to remain.
:15:25. > :15:27.Things have changed, I think that is a sensible reason
:15:28. > :15:32.The constitutional basis upon which you voted in 2014
:15:33. > :15:41.If you now wish to be a member of the European Union,
:15:42. > :15:43.you will have to leave the United Kingdom.
:15:44. > :15:48.That is the exact opposite of what was prevailing in 2014.
:15:49. > :15:51.Now, you've probably had, since the Act of Union of 1706,
:15:52. > :15:54.far too many people like me telling you what you should do.
:15:55. > :15:57.So I'm not going to tell you what you should do,
:15:58. > :16:17.but I hope you'll take a little bit of friendly advice.
:16:18. > :16:21.This is the country of Adam Smith, David Hume, David Livingstone,
:16:22. > :16:23.JK Rowling, Sir Alex Ferguson - Val McDermid!
:16:24. > :16:33.And, you have the national income of a country like Portugal.
:16:34. > :16:41.You have the population of a country like like
:16:42. > :16:47.I see no reason whatsoever why Scotland can't take its own case
:16:48. > :16:52.Who shouted out, "no, you haven't" here?
:16:53. > :16:56.The 62% voted who remain is yesterday's news.
:16:57. > :16:59.It was yesterday's news on the 24th June last year.
:17:00. > :17:00.All those Labour voters, Conservative voters,
:17:01. > :17:02.Liberal Democrat voters all the people who were frightened
:17:03. > :17:05.into voting remain, these are most of the people also who voted no
:17:06. > :17:10.If they thought today that their votes were going to be
:17:11. > :17:12.hijacked as an excuse as a fundamental change for another
:17:13. > :17:14.Scottish referendum, they must rue the day
:17:15. > :17:44.We'll stick with this, but Louise White, let's
:17:45. > :17:46.just have your question, Louise because that rather
:17:47. > :17:48.adds to the dimensions of what we're talking about.
:17:49. > :17:52.Why do the SNP want to reclaim powers from Westminster only
:17:53. > :17:53.to hand them over to Brussels?
:17:54. > :18:01.I mean, I think if you do want to assert your independence it
:18:02. > :18:04.would be a little odd to throw off the dominance of the Westminster
:18:05. > :18:06.Parliament and then to immediately reshackle yourself
:18:07. > :18:08.to the European Union, but there are some differences.
:18:09. > :18:10.The Westminster Parliament controls a considerable degree more
:18:11. > :18:12.of your tax and spending than the European Union does.
:18:13. > :18:15.The European Union, were you to leave the UK and rejoin,
:18:16. > :18:18.would control a large amount of your regulation, but not as much
:18:19. > :18:22.A good number of countries, it wouldn't be my voice
:18:23. > :18:24.to John Swinney or the SNP, but a good number of countries,
:18:25. > :18:27.about the size of Scotland are, I think, broadly independent
:18:28. > :18:30.countries and have decided to be members of the European Union it.
:18:31. > :18:37.Well, I think while the decision to go into this rock hard Brexit
:18:38. > :18:39.maybe the trigger for us to move towards another referendum,
:18:40. > :18:43.it won't be what the referendum is actually about because,
:18:44. > :18:46.at this point, we can't predict what the EU is going to be
:18:47. > :18:51.The EU is clearly in a state of flux at the moment.
:18:52. > :18:53.We don't know what's going to happen in the French elections.
:18:54. > :18:56.We don't know if Mrs Merkel will continue to be German Chancellor.
:18:57. > :18:59.We cannot know what it will be like at the point where,
:19:00. > :19:02.if there is going to be another referendum, that happens.
:19:03. > :19:04.So that's a moot point at the moment.
:19:05. > :19:07.I don't know what we're going to be heading into in two years' time.
:19:08. > :19:10.Ultimately, it is about the future of Scotland and the decisions
:19:11. > :19:13.we make knowing what the options are instead of being told
:19:14. > :19:15.what the options are going to be and then discovering that we've
:19:16. > :19:24.If you think about it, a lot of Europeans don't
:19:25. > :19:27.want to stay in the European Union, what on earth are we doing joining
:19:28. > :19:35.There's two reasons that directly answer the lady's question.
:19:36. > :19:38.There are a whole range of independent countries have
:19:39. > :19:53.decided, voluntarily, to work together as part
:19:54. > :19:57.Some of them are small countries like Scotland,
:19:58. > :20:00.other of them are larger countries, but they all decide
:20:01. > :20:02.in their common interests to work together for mutual benefit
:20:03. > :20:06.The second reason is that, if we're part of the European Union,
:20:07. > :20:08.we have access to a market of 500 million people,
:20:09. > :20:11.which is ten times the market of the United Kingdom.
:20:12. > :20:14.It is a significant opportunity which is now going to be more
:20:15. > :20:16.difficult for us to access because of the decision
:20:17. > :20:20.So it's about making sure that we protect and assert
:20:21. > :20:22.the national interest of Scotland which can be best served
:20:23. > :20:24.by working with other countries for mutual benefit.
:20:25. > :20:27.David Mundell, do you see a conflict between seeking independence
:20:28. > :20:30.and then remaining or going back into the EU, whatever it would be?
:20:31. > :20:33.I'm almost staggered when the SNP make this point about the European
:20:34. > :20:35.market and how important it is to Scotland.
:20:36. > :20:38.The market in the rest of the UK is worth four
:20:39. > :20:40.times as much as all 27 other countries.
:20:41. > :20:46.It just seems to be capable of being disregarded
:20:47. > :20:55.If barriers are to be created between Scotland and the rest
:20:56. > :20:57.of the UK, that doesn't seem to matter.
:20:58. > :21:03.I'm grateful for John Swinney tonight clarifying that the SNP
:21:04. > :21:08.is in favour of EU membership because there's been some doubt
:21:09. > :21:12.lately because of some suggestion that it wouldn't actually be full EU
:21:13. > :21:20.membership because of course they have to take into account
:21:21. > :21:22.the 500,000 of their supporters who voted to leave the EU,
:21:23. > :21:25.and this idea that everyone in Scotland voted to remain,
:21:26. > :21:32...the problem with all of that, David,
:21:33. > :21:35.is that the wishes of the people of Scotland were clearly expressed
:21:36. > :21:38.in the point that was made by the first question,
:21:39. > :21:41.where 62% voted in favour of remaining in the United Kingdom...
:21:42. > :21:51.Of the United Kingdom remaining in the EU,
:21:52. > :21:54.John, not of Scotland - and the key democratic point, David,
:21:55. > :21:57.in resolving this you're the only one who's voted for Brexit
:21:58. > :21:59.in the United Kingdom Parliament from Scotland, everyone else
:22:00. > :22:02.from Scotland has voted not to exit the European Union and that's
:22:03. > :22:04.a democratic absurdity for the people of Scotland.
:22:05. > :22:06.That is your complete disrespect for the one million people
:22:07. > :22:08.in Scotland who voted to leave the EU.
:22:09. > :22:10.I didn't agree with them, but I respected them.
:22:11. > :22:14.What about your lack of respect for the 62%,
:22:15. > :22:16.the overwhelming majority of our citizens and the 58 of the 59
:22:17. > :22:18.Scottish MPs that voted not to trigger Article 50
:22:19. > :22:20.as is the democratic right of those individuals.
:22:21. > :22:23.And the 2 million people, John, who voted to remain
:22:24. > :22:29.So, David Mundell, you're view is that despite the fact that
:22:30. > :22:42.an overwhelming majority of Scotland wanted to stay in the EU,
:22:43. > :22:44.given that the UK voted Brexit, they're
:22:45. > :22:47.better to stick with the UK that's it in the summary as your view?
:22:48. > :22:49.I believe that the arguments for Scotland remaining part
:22:50. > :22:52.of the United Kingdom are as strong today as they were when we voted
:22:53. > :22:58.You, sir, about the referendum and that and then we'll move
:22:59. > :23:03.You, sir, with the spectacles on and then up to you in the pink shirt.
:23:04. > :23:06.John, I was an SNP supporter, now we had a vote referendum
:23:07. > :23:10.So we moved on to Brexit, which the country voted,
:23:11. > :23:13.We're part of Britain, the country voted out, we're out.
:23:14. > :23:16.I want to come out of the European Union,
:23:17. > :23:22.And you, sir, in the pink shirt and then Shami, I'll come to you.
:23:23. > :23:37.I just generally think wouldn't it be better
:23:38. > :23:40.if we got our independence, we're not going to be able to stay
:23:41. > :23:43.in the EU by the time a referendum came about.
:23:44. > :23:45.Wouldn't it be a better position, from a Scotland centric point
:23:46. > :23:48.of view to be able to make choices about an ever-changing Europe
:23:49. > :23:50.at the time as opposed to deciding now we're in,
:23:51. > :23:57.Oh, no, I'm totally for independence, I think that puts
:23:58. > :23:59.us in a position to actually make decisions for ourself
:24:00. > :24:03.So you would leave the UK now in effect, if you could.
:24:04. > :24:06.The Brexit campaign never gave me any information
:24:07. > :24:09.at all with which to make a valuable choice, an informed
:24:10. > :24:13.I'm concerned about all sorts of things, but Brexit did
:24:14. > :24:24.I respect these long-term debates about nationhood that
:24:25. > :24:26.have happened in the UK, they happen in Scotland,
:24:27. > :24:30.but I think the immediate question, the immediate question,
:24:31. > :24:33.is what kind of Brexit there is going to be
:24:34. > :24:43.for the United Kingdom as it is currently constituted.
:24:44. > :24:46.We can be rowing with each other about in/out when that decision has
:24:47. > :24:49.been made or we can be holding Mrs May and her Government
:24:50. > :24:52.to account to make sure - It's going to be a hard Brexit.
:24:53. > :24:54.Labour's done so well on that so far.
:24:55. > :25:00.You've given the Conservative Government a blank cheque,
:25:01. > :25:09.No, we have not given them a blank cheque.
:25:10. > :25:11.They going to have to publish a white paper.
:25:12. > :25:14.They are going to have to report back to Parliament.
:25:15. > :25:16.You have colleagues in Parliament that no doubt have faith in.
:25:17. > :25:19.In the Bill that went through the House of Commons,
:25:20. > :25:21.not a single amendment from any party was accepted
:25:22. > :25:26.And the Labour Party voted at the final stage which opened up
:25:27. > :25:28.the floodgates for the Tories to do what they want.
:25:29. > :25:32.All right, let's hear about next week in the House of Lords.
:25:33. > :25:35.Next week, the Bill is coming to to the House of Lords
:25:36. > :25:37.and the House of Lords is very differently composed
:25:38. > :25:47.However, this debate was supposed to be
:25:48. > :25:49.about parliamentary sovereignty and there is an opportunity
:25:50. > :25:52.in the Lords to ensure that the Government is held
:25:53. > :25:53.to account account during these negotiations.
:25:54. > :25:56.OK, what are you going for in the Lords as a new Labour Baroness,
:25:57. > :26:04.The rolling of the 'R' is delightful and not a tiny bit sarcastic.
:26:05. > :26:07.How dare I, how dare I take my place at the table as well?
:26:08. > :26:09.What we need are greater safeguards about reporting.
:26:10. > :26:11.The Government has said that they will report back
:26:12. > :26:13.to Parliament, so surely they will have no problem
:26:14. > :26:15.with agreeing to amendments in the legislation itself
:26:16. > :26:23.I think it's also crucial that we fight for an amendment
:26:24. > :26:27.to the legislation to guarantee the rights of people who have lived
:26:28. > :26:36.and worked and formed families in this country over many years
:26:37. > :26:39.as a fundamental human rights issue they should be allowed to remain.
:26:40. > :26:41.Shami, are you saying that you will be able in,
:26:42. > :26:44.in the House of Lords, to get the process of negotiation
:26:45. > :26:47.checked, as it goes along, that there will be a vote,
:26:48. > :26:51.I believe that is the ambition of many peers of different
:26:52. > :26:54.That is the opportunity, that is the ambition of many
:26:55. > :27:06.I didn't mean to insult you by calling you "Baroness",
:27:07. > :27:09.You have every right to be a Baroness.
:27:10. > :27:14.But you don't need my permission, but I just wanted to make it clear
:27:15. > :27:17.Right, come on, let's get back to the subject.
:27:18. > :27:19.The woman there in the centre there, yes.
:27:20. > :27:22.I've got a message for David Mundell.
:27:23. > :27:24.I've just returned from Paris from the rugby and I was with people
:27:25. > :27:27.from Scotland, people from your constituency,
:27:28. > :27:30.farmers from Langham, farmers who voted to stay in the UK
:27:31. > :27:39.You could have knocked me down with a feather when they all said
:27:40. > :27:41.that they would vote this time for independence.
:27:42. > :27:50.The woman here, and then I'll go to you there and then to you.
:27:51. > :27:54.One thing that seems to be bandied around in the Brexit debate
:27:55. > :28:00.all the time is this idea of respecting the democratic
:28:01. > :28:04.will of the people, whether that be the remainers need to be quiet
:28:05. > :28:13.and get on with it or the Labour MPs of having to vote
:28:14. > :28:16.with Jeremy Corbyn in the Bill, but, and David Mundell, you yourself,
:28:17. > :28:20.admitted that you voted remain, yet you voted in the House
:28:21. > :28:30.of Commons to go through with the Brexit Bill,
:28:31. > :28:34.so by not adhering to listen to the 60%, 60% odd of Scots who did
:28:35. > :28:36.vote to remain in the UK, you're fundamentally
:28:37. > :28:37.disrespecting their democratic voice?
:28:38. > :28:44.I absolutely disagree with that perspective.
:28:45. > :28:46.As a democrat, we had a referendum in Scotland,
:28:47. > :28:48.the decision was to remain in the United Kingdom.
:28:49. > :28:51.If Scotland had voted to leave the United Kingdom,
:28:52. > :28:54.I would have respected that result and I would have done everything
:28:55. > :29:04.The United Kingdom, as a whole, voted to leave the EU,
:29:05. > :29:08.I respect that result and I'm doing everything that I can to make it
:29:09. > :29:13.a success for Scotland and the rest of the UK.
:29:14. > :29:17.It's always been my understanding that we live in a representative
:29:18. > :29:21.democracy, is it not therefore your obligation
:29:22. > :29:23.to represent the views of your constituents rather
:29:24. > :29:30.We're not going to get into a constitutional debate.
:29:31. > :29:33.A representative democracy means your representative decides
:29:34. > :29:36.and then in five years' time you decide whether you want
:29:37. > :29:42.that person to be your representative or not.
:29:43. > :29:44.Let's not get into Berkin territory here, let's
:29:45. > :29:47.have a comment from you, sir, and a comment from you.
:29:48. > :29:49.Then one or two other comments and then we'll move on.
:29:50. > :30:03.Well, David, what about respecting the 45% of people in Scotland that
:30:04. > :30:07.We see English votes for English laws brought in Westminster so how
:30:08. > :30:20.can the rest of the UK determine Scotland's future?
:30:21. > :30:22.Also on our Labour Lords' point, about the violence
:30:23. > :30:25.and the segregation in the first independence referendum that we had.
:30:26. > :30:29.As an English person, born there, unfortunately,
:30:30. > :30:33.Scotland's home to me, it always will be, I didn't
:30:34. > :30:38.I've got English family down south and they were pleased
:30:39. > :30:43.OK, the woman in the second row there, thank you for that.
:30:44. > :30:46.Just some comments please and then we must move on to other questions.
:30:47. > :30:54.We voted to stay in the United Kingdom, then
:30:55. > :30:59.we voted as a national, not as a Scottish region
:31:00. > :31:02.or country, we voted nationally in the EU referendum and the vote
:31:03. > :31:04.was to leave it and we just have to accept that,
:31:05. > :31:13.Don't ask the question, just say your view.
:31:14. > :31:17.Other people were extremely concerned about the amount
:31:18. > :31:23.the NHS relies on in terms of skilled EU workers.
:31:24. > :31:28.I know everybody wants to speak on this and I wish
:31:29. > :31:32.It is important to note that in terms of gross numbers
:31:33. > :31:35.significantly more people voted to stay in the United Kingdom
:31:36. > :31:40.than voted to remain in the European Union.
:31:41. > :31:43.And we've seen since the Brexit vote that the polls haven't shifted
:31:44. > :31:45.significantly to suggest there is a significant groundswell.
:31:46. > :31:48.The overall numbers seem to have stayed relatively still in Scotland
:31:49. > :31:53.in terms of who supports leaving the United Kingdom and remaining.
:31:54. > :31:55.There was an interesting point directed to John Swinney
:31:56. > :32:02.One of the key rules about joining is that your deficit cannot exceed
:32:03. > :32:04.3% of GDP and Scotland's is currently at 9.5%.
:32:05. > :32:16.People who voted Remain should just grit their teeth
:32:17. > :32:25.That is one of the problems with referendums, simplistic choices
:32:26. > :32:41.no, remain or leave, and have a more intelligent
:32:42. > :32:43.discussion because the country deserves a more intelligent
:32:44. > :32:49.Let's go on to some other questions because we are halfway
:32:50. > :32:52.through the programme and have quite a lot of questions.
:32:53. > :32:55.Just to say we are going to be in Stoke-on-Trent next week
:32:56. > :32:57.and that, of course, is the night the by-election
:32:58. > :32:59.at Stoke-on-Trent, and the week after we will be in Bedford.
:33:00. > :33:02.If you can come to Stoke-on-Trent or to Bedford, on screen
:33:03. > :33:05.is the e-mail address and our telephone number.
:33:06. > :33:07.You can call and apply to come and I will give
:33:08. > :33:15.Should the Scottish Government adopt the education reforms seen
:33:16. > :33:17.in England, in order to improve falling attainment levels?
:33:18. > :33:20.The question is about a report that Scottish pupils are trailing behind
:33:21. > :33:23.the performance of able pupils in England in most subject areas,
:33:24. > :33:31.So should you adopt reforms seen in England?
:33:32. > :33:33.Well, Scotland used to have an education system
:33:34. > :33:41.It was an education system that allowed someone like me,
:33:42. > :33:43.from a working-class background, to go at Oxford University.
:33:44. > :33:46.I think that in many respects the Scottish Government has let down
:33:47. > :33:55.We do have a serious problem with reaching
:33:56. > :33:58.educational attainment that we would all like to see.
:33:59. > :34:01.Steps are being taken to improve that, but I'm not necessarily
:34:02. > :34:03.convinced that going the way of the English curriculum
:34:04. > :34:11.I would like to see a curriculum that encourages children
:34:12. > :34:15.to be curious to learn, because they want to learn.
:34:16. > :34:17.That is not just about forcing down a narrow curriculum path,
:34:18. > :34:22.I would like to see us explore, perhaps in some respects a more
:34:23. > :34:25.traditional approach to learning, but that allows us to reassert
:34:26. > :34:27.ourselves as leaders in education in the world.
:34:28. > :34:31.Which you have a reputation for being.
:34:32. > :34:40.So this line about trailing behind the performance
:34:41. > :34:43.of able pupils in England, you don't agree that's the right way
:34:44. > :34:45.of measuring education success or ability?
:34:46. > :34:47.I don't know, because I am not an educationalist,
:34:48. > :34:51.But I do think we need to improve our attainment
:34:52. > :34:54.and I think the way to do it is not necessarily the way they have
:34:55. > :34:59.I have a son who is at school in England, and I think their focus
:35:00. > :35:02.is very narrowly curriculum based and it does not encourage people
:35:03. > :35:03.to think outside those narrow tramlines of,
:35:04. > :35:07.you have to follow the curriculum and do exactly what you have to do
:35:08. > :35:12.I would like to see a system that encourages people to be curious,
:35:13. > :35:15.encourages children to want to find out more.
:35:16. > :35:17.That certainly was what I experienced as a child
:35:18. > :35:25.John Swinney, you are Education Secretary in Scotland
:35:26. > :35:27.and you will have read this stuff from the Sutton Trust,
:35:28. > :35:30.that bright Scottish pupils are falling behind,
:35:31. > :35:32.and the OECD report that Scottish performance in maths,
:35:33. > :35:42.Is it to follow the reforms that have happened in England,
:35:43. > :35:47.The first thing to do is to acknowledge that we have
:35:48. > :35:50.to improve performance in Scottish education.
:35:51. > :35:54.I am not going to sit here and say there is not an issue that
:35:55. > :35:57.I think openly and honestly confronting that issue
:35:58. > :36:00.The First Minister has appointed me to lead that process
:36:01. > :36:03.in the Scottish Government and I have been doing that
:36:04. > :36:06.for the last nine months, and I am determined to make sure
:36:07. > :36:12.Val McDermid is correct that we need, for the modern world,
:36:13. > :36:16.to have a curriculum that enables young people to be curious
:36:17. > :36:18.and investigative, because they are going to have
:36:19. > :36:27.And if we look at the pace of change in the last
:36:28. > :36:30.10 years in our society, it's been a much more dramatic
:36:31. > :36:32.and aggressive pace of change than in the first ten years
:36:33. > :36:35.Do you accept there has been a slippage
:36:36. > :36:41.The statistics that came out before the turn of the year,
:36:42. > :36:43.the OECD statistics, they indicate that
:36:44. > :36:52.But that information was gathered in 2015.
:36:53. > :36:54.Since then, the Scottish Government has taken a number of steps
:36:55. > :36:57.to improve the performance of Scottish education.
:36:58. > :37:02.Just a couple of weeks ago, I put over ?120 million directly
:37:03. > :37:04.into schools to give headteachers much more control over
:37:05. > :37:06.the allocation of resources, to strengthen, to make choices
:37:07. > :37:08.about what will strengthen education and performance
:37:09. > :37:18.Jason, you suggested they should adopt the English system.
:37:19. > :37:21.Do you think that is the right answer?
:37:22. > :37:24.From what I gather, the free schools in England seem to have
:37:25. > :37:26.had some good results, especially in terms
:37:27. > :37:30.of improving attainment in economically deprived areas.
:37:31. > :37:33.John Swinney said, after the most recent figures came out,
:37:34. > :37:35.that we need radical change in Scottish education.
:37:36. > :37:46.I think the radical reform you need is for politicians to get out
:37:47. > :37:53.The curriculum needs to be set by teachers.
:37:54. > :37:59.If you are going to have a curriculum, make
:38:00. > :38:02.it one sentence long, "schools will teach maths, English,
:38:03. > :38:05.The problem we have got into both in Scotland and in England
:38:06. > :38:09.is being too prescriptive and making education a political football.
:38:10. > :38:12.John has got one hell of a task on his hands to improve
:38:13. > :38:16.I am glad he has admitted the numbers are disappointing even
:38:17. > :38:20.But I would say, don't necessarily adopt the English system.
:38:21. > :38:23.The Swedes have been considerably more radical in allowing freedom
:38:24. > :38:31.They have allowed some schools to be running on a for-profit basis.
:38:32. > :38:33.That has brought in schools, particularly
:38:34. > :38:41.You will find in England the free schools, typically,
:38:42. > :38:43.a broadbrush analysis, are in leafy suburbs with a rich
:38:44. > :38:48.You will not find so many popping up in deprived inner-city areas.
:38:49. > :38:54.If you embrace that in Scotland I think you would find
:38:55. > :39:00.the statistics actually improving over the next five years.
:39:01. > :39:03.Go for freedom for the teachers, allow teachers to teach, allow
:39:04. > :39:07.Whilst John Swinney may be well-intentioned,
:39:08. > :39:10.frankly we need politicians out of the way as the best way
:39:11. > :39:15.The current Scottish Government has recently reformed
:39:16. > :39:19.the curriculum for excellence, but it has resulted
:39:20. > :39:21.in no substantial change to the education system.
:39:22. > :39:23.We are still fully based on assessment driven criteria,
:39:24. > :39:33.No, but I am from a family of teachers.
:39:34. > :39:36.David Mundell, what do you make of the argument?
:39:37. > :39:39.I find the most shocking statistic not the comparison between Scotland
:39:40. > :39:42.and England but the comparison that if you are a bright child living
:39:43. > :39:46.in a poorer area in Scotland, you are two years behind the same
:39:47. > :39:49.child living in a more affluent area.
:39:50. > :39:54.I think that is a shocking indictment of the SNP's ten years
:39:55. > :40:06.The SNP have been responsible for education in Scotland for ten years.
:40:07. > :40:10.No interference from Westminster, fully devolved.
:40:11. > :40:14.And I say that the fundamental problem is, despite John's very
:40:15. > :40:19.plausible commitments, despite the fact that
:40:20. > :40:23.Nicola Sturgeon said last week that education was her absolute focus,
:40:24. > :40:24.it is quite clear, even from the discussion
:40:25. > :40:40.I think it's actually quite incredible that you can come on this
:40:41. > :40:51.programme as the only elected Conservative politician and talk
:40:52. > :41:02.about economically driven education, given the wasteland that has been
:41:03. > :41:03.created by the Conservatives and neoliberalism for
:41:04. > :41:10.I agree with everything that has been said about how troubling
:41:11. > :41:12.it is if Scottish children and the poorest in particular
:41:13. > :41:16.are falling behind, but I am not going to say it is all milk
:41:17. > :41:17.and honey south of the border either.
:41:18. > :41:20.I agree with lots of what Mark said about political footballs
:41:21. > :41:23.and how that has been going on in the education
:41:24. > :41:27.I agree with what was said about over testing,
:41:28. > :41:32.overprescription, where is the joy of learning and curiosity.
:41:33. > :41:35.But most of all, I am worried about the relationship between inequality
:41:36. > :41:47.If a child has not had breakfast, if a child has no books at home,
:41:48. > :41:50.how do you expect to have the most amazing educational opportunity?
:41:51. > :41:54.These things go hand-in-hand, and austerity is a massive problem,
:41:55. > :42:04.and inequality is a massive problem all over the United Kingdom.
:42:05. > :42:16.The idea that saying there has been no interference from Westminster is
:42:17. > :42:20.a farce because our budget has been cut and it is continually cut by
:42:21. > :42:25.Westminster. Lets get the facts on the table,
:42:26. > :42:34.that is completely incorrect. But the budget has been cut. The budget
:42:35. > :42:38.has... The Scottish Government has received more than they anticipated
:42:39. > :42:43.in the current financial year. Has it dropped or has it risen? It has
:42:44. > :42:46.risen, the amount of money the Scottish Government has received.
:42:47. > :42:49.The Scottish Government recently found hundreds of millions to do a
:42:50. > :42:53.deal with the Greens to get their budget through, so there is money if
:42:54. > :43:03.the Scottish Government wants to allocate it. A brief point, if you
:43:04. > :43:05.would. I was a maths teacher for 37 years and in that time I saw
:43:06. > :43:10.children dying from the stage where they came up from primary school,
:43:11. > :43:14.they were very numerous, two in recent years, I retired in October,
:43:15. > :43:19.and I was shocked at how children coming up from primary school had no
:43:20. > :43:24.number bonds, did not know their tables, knew nothing, because of
:43:25. > :43:27.curriculum for excellence. That has been the biggest negative we have
:43:28. > :43:37.had so far in Scotland. In a nutshell, what has happened in your
:43:38. > :43:41.20-year 's teaching? We moved away from basic numerous Ian Park skills,
:43:42. > :43:45.which if you do not have you cannot build on anything to teach maths.
:43:46. > :43:52.Even at university level, if you not understand fractions, you cannot do
:43:53. > :43:58.anything. The fundamentals are not being taught. Because children are
:43:59. > :44:02.being allowed to explore. Boxes are ticked, but nothing is reinforced
:44:03. > :44:04.and learned to the same extent. That is not all schools, but quite a lot
:44:05. > :44:09.of them. APPLAUSE
:44:10. > :44:13.It is not fair to ask you to be too brief, but if you could just
:44:14. > :44:18.summarise. We have heard a lot of complaints
:44:19. > :44:23.and points, particularly about the money spent. On the question of
:44:24. > :44:26.numerous E, David Mundell has let himself down because the Scottish
:44:27. > :44:30.Government budget has been cut dramatically since the Conservatives
:44:31. > :44:37.came to power. Has he forgotten about posterity? The second point is
:44:38. > :44:41.Shami's point about inequality. At the heart of the agenda we are
:44:42. > :44:45.taking forward is the need to close that attainment gap which has
:44:46. > :44:49.persisted in Scottish education for all of my adult life. It was there
:44:50. > :44:52.when I was a school pupil and it remains. We have set an ambitious
:44:53. > :44:56.target that in the course of this parliamentary term we will make
:44:57. > :45:02.significant progress towards closing that gap over the course of the next
:45:03. > :45:06.ten years. The final point is that the curriculum in Scotland was
:45:07. > :45:09.changed, yes, in the early part of this century, after a big national
:45:10. > :45:14.debate involving many educationalists. But at the heart of
:45:15. > :45:18.the curriculum, to reassure the lady is good and wrote, is literacy and
:45:19. > :45:23.numerous E and the health and well-being of our young people, and
:45:24. > :45:27.we must make sure they are equipped with those foundations to make sure
:45:28. > :45:33.they can take their life forward. We have to focus on that. We must go
:45:34. > :45:49.onto another question. I would like to get a couple more questions in.
:45:50. > :45:59.Barbara Pauly. Should the UK follow Trump's lead and treat Russia as a
:46:00. > :46:04.potential ally instead of an enemy? It's hard to work out what Donald
:46:05. > :46:09.Trump is doing. It's in chaos. My biggest fear about him is that he's
:46:10. > :46:23.a sexist, racist, fashionist or something else that would offend me
:46:24. > :46:27.it's chaos at the moment. We should engage with Russia. Back in the day
:46:28. > :46:30.we dealt with We certainly dealt with the mass
:46:31. > :46:34.mvurdering Leonid Brezhnev when he was running the Soviet
:46:35. > :46:36.union, we have to deal with the world as it is,
:46:37. > :46:39.not with the world as we would That means lines of communication
:46:40. > :46:51.to Putin, even for those of who you can't bear the new leader
:46:52. > :46:54.of the free world, lines of communication
:46:55. > :46:56.from the United Kingdom to Trump Don't embrace Vladimir Putin,
:46:57. > :47:00.but recognise that in the dangerous world in which we live,
:47:01. > :47:03.we have to do business with him. I don't think we need
:47:04. > :47:06.to embrace Donald Trump. I don't think we need to embrace
:47:07. > :47:08.Donald Trump either, but if this country,
:47:09. > :47:12.or even if the United Kingdom splits into two, believes that we can go
:47:13. > :47:15.round not recognising that Vladimir Putin is an important part
:47:16. > :47:17.on the stage and not recognising that Donald Trump is,
:47:18. > :47:20.then I'm afraid, our influence, be it English, Scottish or British,
:47:21. > :47:23.is going to wither. We have to keep lines
:47:24. > :47:27.of communication and decent relationships with these people
:47:28. > :47:30.however unpleasant you find them. If indeed Trump is treating
:47:31. > :47:47.Russia as a potential ally instead of an enemy,
:47:48. > :47:49.whatever that may mean. I do agree with Mark that I don't
:47:50. > :47:53.think any of us has a faintest idea of what Donald Trump is doing
:47:54. > :47:55.from one day to the next, I'm not sure how much sense he has
:47:56. > :47:59.of what he's going to do. He said, "I've nothing to do
:48:00. > :48:02.with Russia, I've no deals there. But his people certainly had
:48:03. > :48:06.dealings with Russia before he was elected and the promise
:48:07. > :48:09.to remove sanctions from Russia is not something that you would do
:48:10. > :48:13.without there being some kind of quid pro quo, I feel,
:48:14. > :48:16.in the world of real politics. To answer the question,
:48:17. > :48:19.I think Mark is right that we need to acknowledge that these
:48:20. > :48:24.people are there. But we do not embrace them
:48:25. > :48:32.as friends and allies when they completely eviscerate Any
:48:33. > :48:34.pretence of human rights When they treat their own people
:48:35. > :48:38.in ways we would not allow to happen within our borders,
:48:39. > :48:41.so I think we need to keep those lines of communication open,
:48:42. > :48:44.but we must always make it clear what our position is,
:48:45. > :48:45.particularly in relation to human rights and the way
:48:46. > :48:48.you treat your own population. I find any suggestion
:48:49. > :48:56.that we embrace Trump in anyway abhorrent due to this ban
:48:57. > :49:02.that he has had. We have Muslim citizens
:49:03. > :49:05.of our own and I imagine that they must feel insulted
:49:06. > :49:16.and offended that Theresa May went over there and played happy families
:49:17. > :49:19.with Trump when he's, quite clearly, been anti-Muslim in a way
:49:20. > :49:22.that is reminiscent Hitler, but just Well, a question that begins -
:49:23. > :49:28.should we follow President Trump's lead, is not a question I'm
:49:29. > :49:31.going to answer with a yes. However, I think both
:49:32. > :49:33.Val and Mark had a point about negotiating with people,
:49:34. > :49:36.but I think sometimes one needs to negotiate not from
:49:37. > :49:38.a position of having your hand-held or patted
:49:39. > :49:44.in the Oval Office, but from a position
:49:45. > :49:47.of dignity and strength and that would have to be the case with both
:49:48. > :49:52.of these men, to some extent. You said, Mark, that
:49:53. > :49:56.Trump being a racist or a fascist or a misogynist
:49:57. > :49:57.might offend your liberal It's not my liberal sensitivities
:49:58. > :50:05.that it offends, it's my human sensitivities and I think
:50:06. > :50:10.we should all share those. And those sensitivities are
:50:11. > :50:16.similarly offended by Mr Putin with his attitude to women
:50:17. > :50:18.and gay people and so... You don't consider either of them
:50:19. > :50:22.as bad as Hitler, do you? I mean, there is a lot of human
:50:23. > :50:26.rights abuse in the world, but we've got to put it
:50:27. > :50:28.in some kind of order. My recent experience is that it's
:50:29. > :50:31.not a great idea to be comparing people to Hitler,
:50:32. > :50:33.it's rarely helpful in conversation. Just compare him to
:50:34. > :50:35.the other 250 leaders I don't need to do -
:50:36. > :50:39.There's a lot of bad guys out there. I don't need to do that,
:50:40. > :50:43.I think the point is well made that it's a crazy world at the moment,
:50:44. > :50:45.but we do have to engage with Mr
:50:46. > :50:47.Trump and Mr Putin. But you were critical,
:50:48. > :50:50.unless I misheard you, of the Prime You said it ought to be conducted
:50:51. > :50:54.with dignity, are you suggesting I think it was really
:50:55. > :51:12.important that she went, but I think that the iconography
:51:13. > :51:17.of her having her having her I wouldn't like to see
:51:18. > :51:27.it with Putin, either! I'm absolutely clear
:51:28. > :51:29.that we can't have a business as usual relationship with Russia
:51:30. > :51:32.certainly as it currently conducts itself and we have to be very,
:51:33. > :51:34.very clear about that. Russia's behaviour in the Ukraine,
:51:35. > :51:36.Russia's behaviour even currently in Syria is totally
:51:37. > :51:39.unacceptable and we have to make But we do have to
:51:40. > :51:42.engage with Russia. Some of the most dangerous times
:51:43. > :51:48.in our world have been when there Likewise, with President
:51:49. > :51:59.Trump, he is the democratically-elected President
:52:00. > :52:01.of the United States and we have to We live in a country where,
:52:02. > :52:05.thankfully, we have a thriving democracy where people
:52:06. > :52:07.are able to express their views and opinions in relation
:52:08. > :52:09.to his policies and approach, and I encourage people
:52:10. > :52:11.to continue to do that. But the idea that we can't
:52:12. > :52:14.engage with him is I think the biggest
:52:15. > :52:18.problem that I think is emerging for people
:52:19. > :52:19.in a lot of the stuff that
:52:20. > :52:22.Donald Trump is talking about and expressing
:52:23. > :52:24.is that it's just far from clear
:52:25. > :52:34.what on earth he's doing or saying. a little bit of the press conference
:52:35. > :52:39.before I came to this discussion tonight, and I just
:52:40. > :52:43.couldn't fathom half of what President Trump
:52:44. > :52:49.was on about. Now, I think, in amongst all that,
:52:50. > :52:52.I worry that there might be a terrible naivete about dealing
:52:53. > :52:54.with very significant and sensitive and difficult issues on the
:52:55. > :52:57.international stage where wise, thoughtful caution is required to
:52:58. > :53:04.decide what's the right thing to do. I don't think wise, thoughtful
:53:05. > :53:07.caution are words that you would normally associate
:53:08. > :53:08.with Donald Trump. We want wise, thoughtful reaction
:53:09. > :53:18.to a completely different story. I find British foreign policy very
:53:19. > :53:29.intriguing because we don't like Russia because of their persecution
:53:30. > :53:32.of gay people, but we love Saudi Elizabeth Roddick, we just
:53:33. > :53:40.have time to fit this in, please. This is the report that came out
:53:41. > :53:51.this very week saying that vitamin D could spare people from
:53:52. > :53:54.getting colds and flu. particularly in places in Glasgow
:53:55. > :54:06.where you have shorter days and not much sunshine, vitamin D
:54:07. > :54:08.according to the professor fluoride was added to the water,
:54:09. > :54:12.as it is in the United States. I think it probably
:54:13. > :54:16.should in Glasgow where there is the well-known
:54:17. > :54:19.Glasgow effect because you have so You see, I live in the east
:54:20. > :54:23.of Scotland where we get much But in general, I think it
:54:24. > :54:26.wouldn't be harmful to Mark Littlewood are
:54:27. > :54:37.you in favour of that It may or may not be a good idea
:54:38. > :54:42.to include it, but I don't want politicians
:54:43. > :54:43.deciding that we will. You don't want politicians
:54:44. > :54:45.doing anything? You pretty much nailed
:54:46. > :54:47.it right there. I don't want politicians
:54:48. > :54:49.doing very much at all. You've pretty much
:54:50. > :54:51.nailed it right there. If you want to buy
:54:52. > :54:53.vitamin D supplements and Whether you live on the east
:54:54. > :54:58.side or in Glasgow, We have more options in our diet
:54:59. > :55:02.today than we have ever had There's a lot for people to get
:55:03. > :55:07.their heads around if they want to be healthy, but please to God
:55:08. > :55:10.don't leave this to some panel of John Swinney, would the Scottish
:55:11. > :55:14.Government like to see it put into supplements actually got vitamin D?
:55:15. > :55:22.people having to go out and buy I think the issue of
:55:23. > :55:25.adding it to foods or to much more complex
:55:26. > :55:27.question, but what... It's not a moral
:55:28. > :55:30.issue, but I think it does affect people's
:55:31. > :55:32.rights and their choices. That's why we have
:55:33. > :55:34.to be careful here. Let me just share a personal
:55:35. > :55:36.observation with you. My wife, as many people
:55:37. > :55:39.in Scotland know, has instance of MS in Scotland is
:55:40. > :55:42.particularly intense and one of the reasons is viewed to be
:55:43. > :55:57.a vitamin D deficiency. I am a a big advocate. I take
:55:58. > :56:02.vitamin D every day. My son takes them every day. My wife takes them.
:56:03. > :56:07.There is a big issue about recognising our circumstances here
:56:08. > :56:09.and the need, perhaps, to take that supplement and enhance that
:56:10. > :56:13.capability because of our circumstances. But there is a
:56:14. > :56:18.different issue about whether that should then be made compulsory. All
:56:19. > :56:24.right. It's a very significant point. It's not making it
:56:25. > :56:31.compulsory... It would be in the milk. You don't have to drink the
:56:32. > :56:38.milk! People who can't afford - APPLAUSE. Briefly, if you would. Not
:56:39. > :56:47.everybody actually drinks milk. Vegans don't. They do drink other
:56:48. > :56:53.types of milk and many people would be very angry at supplements being
:56:54. > :56:57.added to their food that may not come from an ethical source or a
:56:58. > :57:02.source that they felt they could eat or drink. Shami, be quick on this.
:57:03. > :57:07.We are coming to the end. It's well saying leaving the politics out.
:57:08. > :57:13.It's well saying we will spend the money on supplements what if you
:57:14. > :57:20.can't afford your food, let alone your supplements. That is the
:57:21. > :57:26.biggest problem here. David Mundell? I'm in agreement with John Swinney.
:57:27. > :57:30.John highlights the really important issues in relation to any it edition
:57:31. > :57:34.to food. There are people who would benefit from that, but there are
:57:35. > :57:39.other people who need and should be given the choice. It's getting the
:57:40. > :57:45.balance right. OK. Our time is up. Sorry. I know, it's always like
:57:46. > :57:52.that. Particularly in Glasgow, I have to say.
:57:53. > :57:55.We're in Stoke-on-Trent next week with the Education Secretary,
:57:56. > :57:57.Justine Greening, and the Chairman of Stoke City Football
:57:58. > :58:06.To come and take part in our audience in Stoke or Bedford,
:58:07. > :58:12.go to our website or call 0330 123 99 88.
:58:13. > :58:16.If you are listening tonight on Radio 5 Live, the debate goes
:58:17. > :58:31.They will be discussing this until 1.00am. Our panel is exhausted. They
:58:32. > :58:36.have to go home. I thank them and all of you who came to take part.
:58:37. > :58:43.From Glasgow and until Question Time next Thursday, good night.
:58:44. > :59:04.APPLAUSE Donald Trump's first 100 days
:59:05. > :59:06.in the White House are defining how he'll deal
:59:07. > :59:12.with the rest of the world. the UK is stepping up
:59:13. > :59:15.the formal business of Brexit.