:00:07. > :00:24.Stoke-on-Trent Central has been voting today in the by-election,
:00:25. > :00:31.after Tristram Hunt left to run the Victoria and Albert Museum.
:00:32. > :00:33.The polls have closed and so our panel is free to say
:00:34. > :00:42.On the panel Education Secretary, and Conservative MP for Putney
:00:43. > :00:46.Her Labour Shadow, and a woman talked about as a possible successor
:00:47. > :00:48.to Jeremy Corbyn as leader of the party, Angela Rayner.
:00:49. > :00:51.Ukip's sole MP who defected from the Conservatives in 2014,
:00:52. > :00:57.The chairman of Stoke City Football Club
:00:58. > :00:59.and the owner of the online bookmaker, Bet365,
:01:00. > :01:05.And the journalist and co-author of a controversial biography
:01:06. > :01:21.APPLAUSE Thank you very much.
:01:22. > :01:23.As ever, you can join the debate on Facebook,
:01:24. > :01:37.First question comes from Aden. Does the Labour Party under Jeremy Corbyn
:01:38. > :01:45.still represent the working class and communities such as Stoke?
:01:46. > :01:49.Justine Greening. Stoke has been a safe Labour seat since it was
:01:50. > :01:54.created decades ago. The answer to your question is no, there was a
:01:55. > :01:59.time when Labour had something to say to working people but that time
:02:00. > :02:04.I think has passed. It would be interesting to see what the results
:02:05. > :02:09.are in Stoke later. The fact we are talking about the fact that Labour
:02:10. > :02:13.might lose the seat tells you about the predicament the party is in
:02:14. > :02:18.because they are not representing working people around the country. I
:02:19. > :02:23.think it is the Conservative Party with Theresa May that is setting
:02:24. > :02:27.about making sure we have a low tax economy, jobs and careers for people
:02:28. > :02:33.and somebody who is standing up for us as we leave the EU and getting a
:02:34. > :02:38.good deal for Britain. The polls close to 50 minutes ago. Any
:02:39. > :02:41.indication of what has happened? We will have to wait and see. If there
:02:42. > :02:53.is one thing we have learned is probably not to rely on polls. As in
:02:54. > :02:59.the opinion polls. Have you got any indication how it has gone tonight?
:03:00. > :03:05.I don't take anything for granted, ever. Do you think you have won? I
:03:06. > :03:10.don't know. I have not been at the ballot box. My information is it
:03:11. > :03:16.looks like Labour has taken a seat. Peter Coates. I think Labour made
:03:17. > :03:21.the mistake, it does represent working people. I don't accept the
:03:22. > :03:28.Tories represent working people and Labour doesn't. APPLAUSE
:03:29. > :03:32.It has never been like that in my lifetime and I don't believe it is
:03:33. > :03:36.today. I do see an opportunity because the
:03:37. > :03:44.Labour Party is in a bit of a mess and Jeremy Corbyn as leader, has
:03:45. > :03:48.obviously not connected with the great British public. I think the
:03:49. > :03:54.majority do not see him as a future Prime Minister. It has its work cut
:03:55. > :04:01.out, as with Scotland, Scotland was taken for granted. I hope it is a
:04:02. > :04:06.wake-up call for Labour to realise that they have got to make sure they
:04:07. > :04:10.represent places such as Stoke and there are many places like Stoke
:04:11. > :04:15.around the country, and get their act together. What we need is a
:04:16. > :04:19.leader who can connect with a great British public, has a chance of
:04:20. > :04:27.winning. And of course UV policies. APPLAUSE
:04:28. > :04:33.-- you deed. Peter, what is it you think that
:04:34. > :04:37.goes wrong. If you said the party does not represent properly places
:04:38. > :04:42.like Stoke, what is it that goes wrong with a party, is it because it
:04:43. > :04:47.is complacent because it is re-elected? I think complacency
:04:48. > :04:53.plays a part. You get taken for granted. I think Scotland got taken
:04:54. > :04:58.for granted and Labour got wiped out and they are in danger unless they
:04:59. > :05:02.get their act together and realise their priority is to ensure
:05:03. > :05:05.working-class people are properly represented and considered and a
:05:06. > :05:10.part of this country, they will suffer. I think there is a
:05:11. > :05:18.realisation now within the party this has got to be done. You, on the
:05:19. > :05:21.second row. Can I ask the panel if they say Labour no longer represents
:05:22. > :05:27.the working class, who does represent the working class? Lets
:05:28. > :05:30.search for that. Douglas Carswell. I don't think the Labour Party does
:05:31. > :05:34.represent the traditional working-class vote it used to
:05:35. > :05:39.represent. It is no longer the party of Keir Hardie. If Labour holds the
:05:40. > :05:44.seat and I think it is likely, the fact it is regarded as a triumph
:05:45. > :05:48.tells you quite how dire the crisis is on the centre-left in British
:05:49. > :05:55.politics. There is a fundamental problem with the Labour Party and it
:05:56. > :05:59.goes beyond the shortcomings of Jeremy Corbyn's leadership. It used
:06:00. > :06:03.to represent the interests of organised labour. For many
:06:04. > :06:07.generations it has represented the interest of career politicians in
:06:08. > :06:10.London and there is a fundamental disconnect between the Parliamentary
:06:11. > :06:15.party and traditional Labour votes. I think there is a race to see who
:06:16. > :06:23.can take their place. The Liberal party used to hold sway in fast
:06:24. > :06:28.parts of the country. I think we could see a new insurgent party if
:06:29. > :06:32.it gets its act together that can displace the Labour Party. There is
:06:33. > :06:38.an opportunity for a different type of party. Just before we go on. Ukip
:06:39. > :06:44.had its new leader Paul Nuttall standing here and you seem to have
:06:45. > :06:50.conceded he has not won. I think the most likely outcome is Labour will
:06:51. > :06:55.win. Stoke is not even in our top 50 target seats. It has been a Labour
:06:56. > :07:01.voting constituency did since 1950. If we were to win, it would be such
:07:02. > :07:06.an earthquake, it would be akin to the Spen Valley election of 1919
:07:07. > :07:10.which mark the demise of the old Liberal party. I know about
:07:11. > :07:13.by-elections, we fought and got a good swing to my new party in
:07:14. > :07:20.Clacton. In terms of the mechanics of the campaign, Paul Nuttall and
:07:21. > :07:24.Ukip have fought a good campaign in terms of organisational structure,
:07:25. > :07:27.and we have not had the South Thanet mayhem we have had in previous
:07:28. > :07:37.contests. You have had the Hillsborough mayhem. The man with
:07:38. > :07:42.his hand up. If Paul Nuttall does not win tonight, can we expect his
:07:43. > :07:51.new house in Stoke to be back on the market tomorrow? LAUGHTER APPLAUSE
:07:52. > :07:58.All right. Hardly be lived in. Angela Rayner. I
:07:59. > :08:03.recognise people'sfrustration with the Labour Party. I was elected in
:08:04. > :08:07.2015 and I am probably one of the only people on the panel who had a
:08:08. > :08:12.manual job, a home carer before coming into Parliament, and I come
:08:13. > :08:16.from the trade union, and not one where I was elected rather than
:08:17. > :08:20.appointed into it. I feel the frustration and I am what people
:08:21. > :08:24.consider to be a safe Labour seat but I have never seen my seat is
:08:25. > :08:29.safe Labour. Scotland is a wake-up call to insure we do that. People
:08:30. > :08:35.feel left behind by successive governments that have not rebalance
:08:36. > :08:40.the economy. Labour did great things, we built schools and
:08:41. > :08:44.invested in the NHS, but the infrastructure and economy around
:08:45. > :08:48.our areas, we feel like we are on our knees and not supported and they
:08:49. > :08:51.are not supplying the economies will stop the help required in the
:08:52. > :08:58.Midlands, Northwest, north-east and in areas where they feel left behind
:08:59. > :09:08.after the deindustrialisation of the UK. APPLAUSE
:09:09. > :09:12.When Mr Corbyn says its problems with the media that is doing him
:09:13. > :09:16.down, you don't agree? We have always had problems with the
:09:17. > :09:26.media. You cannot blame everything on the media. Donald Trump stars. --
:09:27. > :09:30.does. The problem with the country is we have stopped making things and
:09:31. > :09:36.become a giant warehouse and we need to produce again. People will vote
:09:37. > :09:42.for people who get us back on our feet and producing and making more
:09:43. > :09:45.things. And the sign that comes out of Labour does not resonate with
:09:46. > :09:51.you? Nobody at the moment. Isabel Oakeshott. I think whatever the
:09:52. > :09:58.result tonight, Jeremy Corbyn should go.
:09:59. > :10:03.APPLAUSE Nobody literally nobody except
:10:04. > :10:08.possibly Angela Rayner looks at Jeremy Corbyn and thinks he will be
:10:09. > :10:13.Prime Minister. I think the current Labour leadership is diluted, it is
:10:14. > :10:18.discredited, and doomed. Frankly it is doing a great disservice to those
:10:19. > :10:22.of us who want to see a robust opposition to the Tory government.
:10:23. > :10:31.APPLAUSE You, sir. I disagree. I think Jeremy
:10:32. > :10:39.Corbyn is a wonderful leader. If he is given the chance. He is an honest
:10:40. > :10:43.man and sincere man and he does not stretch the truth like Ukip does.
:10:44. > :10:49.Who is not giving him the chance? His party? The media, for a start.
:10:50. > :10:56.What about his party? His Shadow Cabinet who resigned? Stoke-on-Trent
:10:57. > :11:00.is a Labour supporting area and surely Angela Rayner and people like
:11:01. > :11:07.her should stand behind their leader. Peter Coates, I will come to
:11:08. > :11:13.you, but the woman there. I struggle to understand what people
:11:14. > :11:18.want from a leader. I think Jeremy Corbyn has integrity and is honest.
:11:19. > :11:26.When I have been to Stoke to rallies he has spoken act, he has got great
:11:27. > :11:31.support. -- spoken at. I want an honest leader, not somebody who is
:11:32. > :11:35.all singing and dancing but tells lies, or is disingenuous. I want
:11:36. > :11:40.somebody honest and with integrity and I think Jeremy Corbyn has got
:11:41. > :11:48.that. Peter Coates. First of all I want to
:11:49. > :11:57.pick up on the comment about manufacturing. Stoke has retained
:11:58. > :12:02.many factories. Something like 13.5% of output of this city. It is the
:12:03. > :12:11.highest manufacturing contribution of any city in the UK. We have done
:12:12. > :12:13.rather well comparatively. I am afraid we have to realise these
:12:14. > :12:17.manufacturing jobs by and large are not coming back but the ceramic
:12:18. > :12:22.industry has got itself together and is doing well and growing, taking on
:12:23. > :12:29.more jobs. Do not despair in that sense. The city from a manufacturing
:12:30. > :12:35.point of view has done well. You, sir. I don't think it matters who
:12:36. > :12:40.Labour have as leader, I think they will be wiped out at the next
:12:41. > :12:45.election anyway. Why? They are 18 points behind in the polls. A lot of
:12:46. > :12:49.working-class people have gone to Ukip, like myself. I have voted
:12:50. > :12:53.Labour all my life and I would not vote them again because they do not
:12:54. > :12:59.represent my view of the world. How did you vote today? I voted for
:13:00. > :13:05.Ukip. Let's talk about Ukip. Heath. Just before we go one, Bedford next
:13:06. > :13:11.week, if you are listening in Bedford. Sunderland the week after.
:13:12. > :13:18.That is where Question Time will be. Stephen Heath, can we have your
:13:19. > :13:22.question? Is defeat for Ukip in the Brexit capital by-election today the
:13:23. > :13:26.end of the party? The Brexit capital is what Paul Nuttall called Stoke
:13:27. > :13:31.because it was in the top group of parts of the country that voted for
:13:32. > :13:35.Brexit. If they are defeated here, is it the end of the party, Angela
:13:36. > :13:42.Rayner? I think Ukip are a busted flush. They are a one issue party.
:13:43. > :13:48.Both of the main political parties said they respect the will of the
:13:49. > :13:53.people. They have triggered Article 50. We will look at the best still
:13:54. > :13:58.possible. Ukip have no strategy on how to be in government and cannot
:13:59. > :14:00.even tell the truth. Their leader has told so many lies, he makes
:14:01. > :14:13.Donald Trump looked honest. APPLAUSE Douglas Carswell? We were always the
:14:14. > :14:18.underdogs in this contest. We were always up against a party that has
:14:19. > :14:26.been elected in Stoke since the middle of the last century. But, you
:14:27. > :14:30.know, I think that, although we fought a good campaign in terms of
:14:31. > :14:34.the mechanics of the campaign, I do accept that we have a problem and
:14:35. > :14:40.that was evident in this contest as it's been evident in other election
:14:41. > :14:43.contests and that is that we are not given the benefit of the doubt. I
:14:44. > :14:47.think the benefit of the doubt in politics is absolutely worth its
:14:48. > :14:50.weight in gold. In any by-election, in any election whatsoever you will
:14:51. > :14:55.get things thrown at you, people will look at old blog posts and what
:14:56. > :14:59.you wrote on Twitter some years ago, I understand the Labour Party had a
:15:00. > :15:03.few issues with that. If people give you the benefit of the doubt, you
:15:04. > :15:07.can get through that. We as a party need to ask ourselves, what is it
:15:08. > :15:11.about our values and about us that mean many people aren't giving us
:15:12. > :15:16.the benefit of the doubt. That's a key question regardless of the
:15:17. > :15:19.outcome of the by-election I think we need to ask ourselves on Friday
:15:20. > :15:23.morning. If we are going to be credible, we need to understand why
:15:24. > :15:29.it is people have not given us the benefit of the doubt. I think a lot
:15:30. > :15:33.of it is to do with the legacies of the Shock and Awe tactics we had in
:15:34. > :15:37.the run-up to the last election. There are issues to do with that
:15:38. > :15:42.that need to be addressed in order for us to win seats.
:15:43. > :15:46.How can you carry on as a party when Nigel Farage, who is seen as, apart
:15:47. > :15:50.from you, as the main Ukip candidate, says you shouldn't be in
:15:51. > :15:55.the party and doesn't believe in what they stand for. Farage and you
:15:56. > :16:01.seem to be completely at odds at what Ukip is. He seems to represent
:16:02. > :16:06.Ukip, you are the leader of Ukip in the House of Commons. He's
:16:07. > :16:11.representing Ukip or LBC in Washington, I'm not going to have a
:16:12. > :16:15.dig at him though. You just did, Douglas, you just did. I think he's
:16:16. > :16:19.done some great things. I think it's because of him that Ukip became the
:16:20. > :16:22.force that it's been but I think now Paul has to take us to the next
:16:23. > :16:26.level and I think he's begun to do that. You are banging on about
:16:27. > :16:29.giving the benefit of the doubt. Unless you know something the rest
:16:30. > :16:32.of us don't, you are not even giving your own party the benefit of the
:16:33. > :16:38.doubt, you are sounding as though it'ses a definite defeat for Ukip
:16:39. > :16:42.tonight. We don't know that. Secondly, as I was making my way up
:16:43. > :16:46.here tonight, I had a very interesting tip-off and since we are
:16:47. > :16:50.here, I thought I would ask you directly about it. David has
:16:51. > :16:54.mentioned the feud between yourself and Nigel Farage which you yourself
:16:55. > :17:01.brought up - I understand that Nigel Farage should have got a Knighthood,
:17:02. > :17:04.I personally believe he deserves to get a nighthood and he was...
:17:05. > :17:09.APPLAUSE. He was certainly put forward for a
:17:10. > :17:12.Knighthood and it appeared that everything was going swimmingly
:17:13. > :17:16.until you were asked to give your endorsement to that and you failed
:17:17. > :17:19.to do so. Was that true? That's simply not the case. That's
:17:20. > :17:24.certainly what I've heard. I would love it if I had the power to give
:17:25. > :17:28.Knight haths. I said you were asked to give your backing to it. I
:17:29. > :17:32.absolutely... So you were never asked to give backing or feedback or
:17:33. > :17:38.comment on it? Absolutely not at all. Is it in your power to give
:17:39. > :17:44.Knighthoods to Nigel Farage? I wish it were. Would you? I've often
:17:45. > :17:51.called him Sir. I don't know what we make of that. Justine Greening? It
:17:52. > :17:58.Liams like Ukip was a one-man party at the end of the day. A Carswell or
:17:59. > :18:03.Farage party? He's got through a few leaders so maybe Douglas can do it
:18:04. > :18:07.next. Before the referendum last year, I mean clearly Ukip campaigned
:18:08. > :18:11.for us to come out of Europe and it seems to me that part of the problem
:18:12. > :18:16.is, people don't know what Ukip stands for now and also the
:18:17. > :18:18.characters involved and the question about Paul Nuttall putting his house
:18:19. > :18:25.on the market perhaps tomorrow morning. I think there's a sense of
:18:26. > :18:30.people not knowing what Paul Nuttall stood forrant and didn't have a
:18:31. > :18:33.sense as to who was going to benefit from him getting elected, was it
:18:34. > :18:37.people in Stoke who needed a local MP to represent their community or
:18:38. > :18:43.was it going to be Paul Nuttall who wanted more profile for Paul Nuttall
:18:44. > :18:51.and it seemed to everyone like it was the latter. You, Sir? Douglas
:18:52. > :18:55.just made a point about Ukip like having a good campaign this time
:18:56. > :18:59.around, but I think one of the fundamental things that Paul Nat
:19:00. > :19:02.tall got wrong is, if he's going to apply to be a Member of Parliament
:19:03. > :19:08.for Stoke, one of the things he should know, this city's got six
:19:09. > :19:12.towns and he should be able to name every one of those six towns. Once
:19:13. > :19:16.he got that wrong, all his credibility was gone. And you? It's
:19:17. > :19:21.not true that Ukip didn't see this as a target. They threw everything
:19:22. > :19:24.at this election, including how an expensive shop in the middle of
:19:25. > :19:28.Hanley. You haven't had the benefit of your lies, you haven't been given
:19:29. > :19:33.the benefit of the division and the benefit of the hate. That's what the
:19:34. > :19:43.people have voted against you. APPLAUSE.
:19:44. > :19:48.We are talking about the present Ukip leader Paul Nuttall and you've
:19:49. > :19:52.heard me criticise Jeremy Corbyn tonight, well he seems a paragon of
:19:53. > :19:55.virtue to me compared with Paul Nuttall. If that's the best Ukip can
:19:56. > :20:00.do... APPLAUSE.
:20:01. > :20:06.If that's the best they can do, they are in a mess. They're a party of
:20:07. > :20:12.anti-immigration and out of Europe and they are trying to come in and
:20:13. > :20:16.take this working class vote, as they're talk about, and there's
:20:17. > :20:21.nothing I've heard come from Paul Nuttall that would suggest he's got
:20:22. > :20:24.any interest in the values of working class people. The most
:20:25. > :20:29.important thing for working class people is the National Health
:20:30. > :20:34.Service and he's talked about, he'd like to do away with privatising it.
:20:35. > :20:38.As for Nigel Farage, he's damaged the country beyond measure for me
:20:39. > :20:51.because... APPLAUSE.
:20:52. > :20:58.Because Don't be misled because of Europe. This is going to play out
:20:59. > :21:04.very badly for Britain. The woman on the gangway? Sorry, I don't have to
:21:05. > :21:06.agree with that point, Peter. Unfortunately, I think you are
:21:07. > :21:12.speaking for a minority in Stoke-on-Trent. We had the highest
:21:13. > :21:15.percentage that voted to leave the EU and with respect, I think the
:21:16. > :21:20.downfall of Ukip is down to the fact that Nigel Farage is no longer their
:21:21. > :21:30.leader. It doesn't mean you're right. Just a
:21:31. > :21:34.word Douglas before we go on. Brexit says Brexit means the Prime Minister
:21:35. > :21:38.and keeps saying it. That is what Ukip wants. What is there for them
:21:39. > :21:43.to do if that is what the Conservative Party is doing? I think
:21:44. > :21:47.politics is a cartel, it's run by a two-and-a-half party system in
:21:48. > :21:52.Westminster. We've got them to do the right thing by Brexit by Ukip's
:21:53. > :21:55.efforts forcing the referendum and winning the referendum. But there
:21:56. > :21:58.are all sorts of other things we need to change. Politics is a cartel
:21:59. > :22:02.and until that's broken, we are never going to get the politicians
:22:03. > :22:07.to represent us properly. Things around Brexit or are you talking
:22:08. > :22:10.about quite different things? Monetary policy - that for the past
:22:11. > :22:13.generation's favoured big banks in London rather than manufacturing in
:22:14. > :22:17.towns like Stoke. We need a monetary policy run in the interests of the
:22:18. > :22:24.whole country, not the small banking oligarch here in London.
:22:25. > :22:28.You, Sir? Do you feel that the Brexit and Trump phenomenon's that
:22:29. > :22:32.are happening across the world are correlated to racism or any of that
:22:33. > :22:36.stuff? What do you think? I think it's because everyone is completely
:22:37. > :22:43.disillusioned with the political clath class in tuft kingdom.
:22:44. > :22:52.APPLAUSE. -- political class in the United
:22:53. > :22:55.Kingdom? Angela? Everyone is fed up with those who've not been
:22:56. > :22:58.representing them or speaking on their behalf and, actually, it
:22:59. > :23:00.wasn't Ukip that delivered Brexit, it was the people. It was the will
:23:01. > :23:04.of the people. APPLAUSE.
:23:05. > :23:08.It will be carried out by all of the MPs that are in Parliament,
:23:09. > :23:11.otherwise at their peril if they don't listen to the will of the
:23:12. > :23:15.people because that's our democracy and we respect our democracy. We
:23:16. > :23:19.have got to move on from that and start talking about OK, people were
:23:20. > :23:23.blaming Europe as why we weren't having the jobs here, immigration
:23:24. > :23:27.was the issue. Now they are not the issues, get on and start building
:23:28. > :23:30.and building our industries around here and giving our young people
:23:31. > :23:35.jobs and opportunities. That's what people want.
:23:36. > :23:40.APPLAUSE. You at the very back? I'm not
:23:41. > :23:46.surprised they are disillusioned because in an area that voted for
:23:47. > :23:49.them to leave, Labour put up a candidate that's a massive remainor.
:23:50. > :23:52.He's been absolutely clear throughout his campaign, although he
:23:53. > :23:56.was personally a remainor, that he respects the will of the people and
:23:57. > :24:01.he would have voted to trigger Article 50 and Labour voted to
:24:02. > :24:06.trigger Article 50. He's not been shouting about it though has he? If
:24:07. > :24:10.he gets quizzed on it, he answers it but he hasn't mentioned it all
:24:11. > :24:13.along. I can only talk about what we've done and the record that we've
:24:14. > :24:18.had and we have been absolutely clear. Jeremy, as our leader, has
:24:19. > :24:23.been absolutely clear that we were a party of remain, just like the
:24:24. > :24:30.Conservatives were, but the electorate voted out, so we are
:24:31. > :24:34.coming out of Europe. You mention disillusionment, what's the point in
:24:35. > :24:38.putting a Remainor in an area that people don't want that. They don't
:24:39. > :24:41.want that in Stoke. How many members of the Labour Party in the House of
:24:42. > :24:46.Commons voted against Article 50? There was a number... How many? A
:24:47. > :24:53.number of... How many? There was a number... One in five. There was
:24:54. > :24:56.a... He's got a point. You have got to understand that their
:24:57. > :25:02.constituents, they voted for overwhelmingly remaining. People in
:25:03. > :25:08.Stoke voted overwhelmingly to leave. So why choose a Remainor? Why would
:25:09. > :25:14.you choose that? If the constituents vote here to Leave, why select a
:25:15. > :25:18.Remainor? Gareth was clear in his hustings and has been clear
:25:19. > :25:21.throughout the whole of his candidacy that he respects the will
:25:22. > :25:27.of the people. Fine, let us leave that and see what happens if he is
:25:28. > :25:32.elected. We hear that Copeland has been held by Labour. The Tories
:25:33. > :25:37.haven't taken that. It's people at the count looking at people's faces
:25:38. > :25:45.I suspect and showing whether they are disappointed or not. If The man
:25:46. > :25:52.by the monitor? Two brief points. Angela Rayner, about the MPs who
:25:53. > :25:57.voted against triggering Article 50 were from constituencies which
:25:58. > :26:01.overwhelmingly backed remain. I don't remember Newcastle under
:26:02. > :26:05.Leinbaching remain and Paul Farrelly backing not triggering Article 50.
:26:06. > :26:11.Back to the essence of the question, I think that I will say that I voted
:26:12. > :26:15.for Ukip in this by-election, but Ukip has fundamentally failed to do
:26:16. > :26:23.what it needs to do. It's not been able to get rid of the image of
:26:24. > :26:28.racism or unprofessionalty. You voted for it you say? I voted for it
:26:29. > :26:33.because... APPLAUSE.
:26:34. > :26:37.I voted for it because I saw the other issues which it wasn't
:26:38. > :26:42.campaigning enough about. It needs to stress if it wants to campaign
:26:43. > :26:48.against the massive white elephants brought about by the party, HSII...
:26:49. > :26:56.OK, so you had other reasons apart from the Brexit? I think that... All
:26:57. > :27:00.right. Let us stick with it albeit in a slightly different manner with
:27:01. > :27:05.a question from Joan Fox, please? Has Tony Blair's intervention on
:27:06. > :27:13.Brexit helped or hindered the Remain cause? A word about Tony Blair's
:27:14. > :27:16.intervention who said, we are going to be poorer once these Brexit
:27:17. > :27:21.negotiations are complete, the country is going to be poorer and
:27:22. > :27:28.everybody will say that leaving is inevitable, but it isn't. Angela
:27:29. > :27:31.Rayner, is he right? We are triggering Article 50 and leaving
:27:32. > :27:34.Europe, that is clear, that's what... Do people have a right to
:27:35. > :27:38.change their mind, as Tony Blair said? Tony Blair's a right to his
:27:39. > :27:41.opinion and there is a lot of people in this country that hold the same
:27:42. > :27:46.view as Tony Blair. You've got to respect that some people have that
:27:47. > :27:49.view. But let's be clear that we are going down that road of leaving
:27:50. > :27:53.Europe and it's about what sort of economy we have and how we untangle
:27:54. > :27:58.some of the selection around that because we need to bring that back.
:27:59. > :28:02.We can't keep going on having the same argument like ground hog day,
:28:03. > :28:05.are we going out of Europe, are we going out. We are going out, people
:28:06. > :28:09.are fed up with people intervening trying to rehash it, we don't want
:28:10. > :28:12.to go there again, move on, get on with the real job of bringing jobs
:28:13. > :28:18.and the economy back to where we want it. Back to what your former
:28:19. > :28:23.leader said - as the terms become clear of Brexit, he said, if people
:28:24. > :28:26.are going to change their minds, our mission is to persuade them to do
:28:27. > :28:29.so. In other words if things don't turn out well, Labour should be in a
:28:30. > :28:33.position to say, you don't have to go there, Parliament should be in a
:28:34. > :28:40.position to say this hasn't worked out as Douglas Carswell thought it
:28:41. > :28:45.might. Is that a fair position? Well, the last 18 months since I've
:28:46. > :28:49.been elected to Parliament are not what I thought they'd be so I'm not
:28:50. > :28:52.predicting because I would never have predicted that we'd be where we
:28:53. > :28:56.are today with Donald Trump. There is no will of the people to rehash
:28:57. > :28:59.and have the argument again and again, we are coming out of Europe,
:29:00. > :29:02.I'm focussed on getting the best deal for the working class people of
:29:03. > :29:05.Britain making sure that I do the stuff as a Labour politician that
:29:06. > :29:09.will make people of Stoke and the rest of the working class people in
:29:10. > :29:10.this country proud of the Labour Party.
:29:11. > :29:18.Fine. APPLAUSE.
:29:19. > :29:26.Douglas, I will come to you but Justine Greening, how did you vote
:29:27. > :29:29.on the issue of Remain, Leave? I supported the Brexit bill that went
:29:30. > :29:39.through Parliament. On June the 23rd? Remain. In the same way most
:29:40. > :29:44.people in Stoke were for Leave, I was opposite. If the negotiations do
:29:45. > :29:48.not go as you hope they will and the Prime Minister hopes they will, if
:29:49. > :29:52.it gets difficult and is not quite what is expected, if Tony Blair is
:29:53. > :29:56.right to the country is poorer, there are fewer jobs as a result,
:29:57. > :30:01.should it be the House of Commons' business to say, we will change our
:30:02. > :30:06.mind, we will not do it like this, or is it game, set and match to
:30:07. > :30:12.Leave? The Prime Minister said we will get on with Brexit. The
:30:13. > :30:15.question asked, to answer it, anybody who is still campaigning for
:30:16. > :30:21.Remain is hindered by Tony Blair getting involved. It is almost the
:30:22. > :30:24.kiss of death. We talked about why people are disillusioned. A lot of
:30:25. > :30:29.the roots of disillusionment started when Tony Blair was Prime Minister,
:30:30. > :30:32.he said he wanted people to get out in the street who cared about
:30:33. > :30:37.Europe. He ignored them when they did that in relation to the Iraq
:30:38. > :30:41.War. He represents the elite politician that was a complete
:30:42. > :30:45.turn-off for millions of this country and I think he is
:30:46. > :30:50.discredited to enter the discussion about where our future is after the
:30:51. > :30:55.EU and I think it is outrageous he has got the cheek to turn around to
:30:56. > :30:58.the British people and say to them he does not accept the decision we
:30:59. > :31:10.took in our referendum. APPLAUSE
:31:11. > :31:15.The Mall at the very back. A large part of economic performance is down
:31:16. > :31:18.to public sentiment and every time a high-profile person comes on
:31:19. > :31:23.television and says we are going to be poorer and Brexit will hurt us,
:31:24. > :31:29.it is a self-fulfilling prophecy. If people believe that, it will hurt
:31:30. > :31:33.us. Peter Coates, do you agree? I believe it will hurt and damage us
:31:34. > :31:41.very much and I think there is a distinction on voting coming out and
:31:42. > :31:45.what the terms are. I find it difficult to disagree with anything
:31:46. > :31:50.he said and he has every right to say it, Tony Blair, and this in my
:31:51. > :31:55.view will cost us dearly, unless, the caveat is, I do not know what
:31:56. > :32:01.the terms will be. If we come out and are able to stay in the single
:32:02. > :32:06.market, we will be fine. If we come out, we will be in deep trouble.
:32:07. > :32:12.Don't take much notice of the last six months, the next two years, this
:32:13. > :32:16.is a long game. We shall see this play out over the two, three, five
:32:17. > :32:24.years. We will look back and say, why did we do that? I started my
:32:25. > :32:31.business in 1968 and I do not know what the European Union has stopped
:32:32. > :32:36.me doing. I hear talk about... It stopped me doing nothing. I never
:32:37. > :32:42.felt I was governed by Parliament. I have MPs around me and I believe
:32:43. > :32:47.they govern us. I have never felt governed other than by Westminster.
:32:48. > :32:48.The law courts. We built Europe into a bogeyman it is not and time will
:32:49. > :32:58.tell. APPLAUSE
:32:59. > :33:04.I have no idea how you can possibly be so negative at this stage, when
:33:05. > :33:10.all the signs so far, you are quick to dismiss, are positive. The banks
:33:11. > :33:14.are upgrading forecasts, none of the predictions of doom we had about
:33:15. > :33:19.terrible economic crashes the minute we voted to leave have materialised.
:33:20. > :33:25.How can you be so incredibly pessimistic? What you are talking
:33:26. > :33:32.about is so short-term as to be completely and utterly irrelevant.
:33:33. > :33:38.You have to look at the longer term. Let me tell you something about our
:33:39. > :33:45.economy. Peter, Peter. Let's Douglas Carswell have a say. About 20 years
:33:46. > :33:48.ago Tony Blair, Ken Clarke and Michael Heseltine sat on the stage
:33:49. > :33:53.like this and warned that if we did not give up the pound and join the
:33:54. > :33:59.euro, the economy would suffer. We were told again and again we could
:34:00. > :34:04.not afford to be part of Europe. -- euro. Thank goodness we did not take
:34:05. > :34:11.their advice. I expect in ten years it will be difficult to find people
:34:12. > :34:16.who were saying they were actively campaigning to remain. You take the
:34:17. > :34:20.example of the euro and did use the same is true, this is bigger than
:34:21. > :34:24.the euro, leaving. Trying to organise the economic and social
:34:25. > :34:28.affairs of hundreds of millions by grand design leads to catastrophe
:34:29. > :34:34.and by insulating ourselves from the worst aspects, the euro, Schengen,
:34:35. > :34:42.our strength in Euro policy is not joining in. We do not want to fight
:34:43. > :34:48.the June 23 debate. The negotiations are about to begin and the question
:34:49. > :34:53.is, the Tony Blair point com if they are not going well, is Parliament in
:34:54. > :34:57.a position to modify Britain's exit from the EU? I think it is unhelpful
:34:58. > :35:02.for Tony Blair to make this intervention because I want a new
:35:03. > :35:06.consensus on Europe and a deal that allows Angela, Justine and Paul
:35:07. > :35:11.Nuttall to agree on a new consensus on Europe. It has been divisive. I
:35:12. > :35:16.do not want to go through the referendum again, I want a new
:35:17. > :35:23.national consensus and the idea that yesterday's man, the man responsible
:35:24. > :35:26.for providing over the boom and bust can wade in and say, present the
:35:27. > :35:32.fantasy idea that somehow not leaving is an option is unhelpful.
:35:33. > :35:36.APPLAUSE A number of hands are up.
:35:37. > :35:41.You answer him. Let's get back to the economy, the car industry, a
:35:42. > :35:49.success in this country, because we have been bailed out by foreign
:35:50. > :35:56.companies, and the investment in our car industry is from India, America,
:35:57. > :36:02.France, Germany. They have sorted the problem is out. They put proper
:36:03. > :36:06.investment in, long-term investment. Britain does not do long-term
:36:07. > :36:09.investment well. We rely on international investment in this
:36:10. > :36:14.country and we shall become less attractive. You do not have to
:36:15. > :36:24.agree, but wait and see. Why do you think it will go pear shaped? The
:36:25. > :36:31.negotiations have not begun. We have a trade deficit and it is the
:36:32. > :36:36.highest for 70 years. Is that great? The highest in 70 years. The thing I
:36:37. > :36:41.agree with Peter on is it is about the terms, not about whether we are
:36:42. > :36:45.coming out or not. We have businesses and trading partners in
:36:46. > :36:48.Europe we need to make sure... We cannot do it piecemeal, which is
:36:49. > :36:53.what the government seems to be doing with the car dealerships. We
:36:54. > :36:56.have to make sure we support small and medium enterprises in Britain to
:36:57. > :37:03.make sure they can continue to trade with Europe. Since the vote we have
:37:04. > :37:12.had a range of companies announce huge investment in the UK whether it
:37:13. > :37:17.is Google, apple, there has been a huge amount of investment coming
:37:18. > :37:24.into the UK the. Let me go to the audience. The woman and then you.
:37:25. > :37:32.Given Tony Blair's track record is taking us to war on the flimsiest of
:37:33. > :37:36.evidence, why should anybody take his advice? Most people'sinstinctive
:37:37. > :37:41.reaction to his advice is to do exactly the opposite.
:37:42. > :37:50.APPLAUSE Yes? I agree with the lady who has
:37:51. > :37:54.just spoken. I think Tony Blair should now keep quiet, tend his
:37:55. > :38:05.garden or allotment at home. I think his intervention recently, as many
:38:06. > :38:11.commentators said, to harm Jeremy Corbyn. He was hoping by him making
:38:12. > :38:18.this intervention, he wished dent any potential of Labour gaining in
:38:19. > :38:23.the by-elections today. If the reports coming through are correct,
:38:24. > :38:30.it looks as though Jeremy Corbyn's Labour Party has in fact gained the
:38:31. > :38:36.elections today. Held, we should save. The man here. There are many
:38:37. > :38:41.things about Tony Blair I disagree with but I respect his right to say
:38:42. > :38:47.what he thinks. APPLAUSE
:38:48. > :38:50.The most important thing in the past few months was the Gina Miller case
:38:51. > :38:55.and I had a mini numberplate made with her name on and attached it to
:38:56. > :39:00.my car and drove it around one day to celebrate the fact Parliament
:39:01. > :39:09.would decide and not just Mrs May. I left it on one day because I thought
:39:10. > :39:16.I would get my car keyed. It was Tony Blair's fault why
:39:17. > :39:19.Britain voted out of Europe. He said 50,000 people would come into this
:39:20. > :39:24.country and 1 million people came in. Too much change to quickly and
:39:25. > :39:29.that is why people turn to Ukip. What do you make of David Davis
:39:30. > :39:35.saying it will be years and years and years before we end immigration?
:39:36. > :39:41.It will be. It is Tony Blair's fault. He should have put a cap on
:39:42. > :39:46.it and slowly done it. There is another point here. Having
:39:47. > :39:52.politicians, former politicians like Tony Blair, talking about a second
:39:53. > :39:56.referendum, some kind of veto, really undermines our Prime Minister
:39:57. > :40:02.she begins this process of negotiation. It is pulling the rug
:40:03. > :40:10.from under her. I think it is deep in the arm patriotic to do that.
:40:11. > :40:15.APPLAUSE -- unpatriotic. Where was Tony Blair
:40:16. > :40:17.when Stoke-on-Trent was losing jobs? Too busy messing around Europe
:40:18. > :40:24.rather than looking after his own people. We will go onto another
:40:25. > :40:30.question. Shouldn't the government be doing
:40:31. > :40:33.more to improve the educational level in the country rather than
:40:34. > :40:41.just focusing on creating more grammar schools. We are creating a
:40:42. > :40:47.gap in the north and south divide we have in education. The grammar
:40:48. > :40:51.schools the government has announced proposals, we have two, we have the
:40:52. > :40:56.education minister and the shadow. Proposals to allow new grammar
:40:57. > :41:02.schools. Is that still on the cards? You are smiling as if you are not
:41:03. > :41:08.quite sure about this policy. You want to drop it? Not at all. You are
:41:09. > :41:11.keen on it? We had consultation that finished in December and we are
:41:12. > :41:16.going through results and will set out the next steps in the spring. We
:41:17. > :41:21.want to take away the band that stops grammar schools being created.
:41:22. > :41:25.They are popular with parents. As important, you talked about how we
:41:26. > :41:29.can make sure we lift up young people and everybody comes out of
:41:30. > :41:33.schools with a great education. When you look at disadvantaged children
:41:34. > :41:38.who go to grammar schools their progress is twice as fast in a
:41:39. > :41:44.grammar school as they're better off peers. It is part of how we close
:41:45. > :41:48.the gap. It is not the whole of our approach on education. A few weeks
:41:49. > :41:53.ago I announced Oak would be an opportunity area, which means we
:41:54. > :41:58.work inside schools in Stoke to raise outcomes for children but also
:41:59. > :42:04.outside with local businesses and the community, making sure young
:42:05. > :42:08.people have work experience, mentoring, and we are doing that in
:42:09. > :42:14.12 places where we think we can make a difference. Your answer to him is
:42:15. > :42:18.you are not just focusing on grammar schools but you are still committed
:42:19. > :42:23.to the expansion of grammar schools? Yes, and we want to ensure every
:42:24. > :42:27.child can reach their potential, which means having an education
:42:28. > :42:30.system that meets the different needs of children and grammar
:42:31. > :42:34.schools are a part of that and it is time we understood that. The system
:42:35. > :42:41.has changed massively in the last ten years and it is time to look at
:42:42. > :42:45.how grammar schools can play a role. Not just the children who get into
:42:46. > :42:48.grammar schools but other schools as well.
:42:49. > :42:55.The woman on the fourth row. I agree grammar schools are improving. I
:42:56. > :43:02.believe the old education system of having the three levels of schooling
:43:03. > :43:07.is something we should go back to. My mother went to a grammar school,
:43:08. > :43:15.Clayton Manor, locally around here, and again, like we have said, she
:43:16. > :43:19.worked twice as hard and got her scholarship and went forward. I do
:43:20. > :43:23.not think grammar schools are about a north-south divide, they should be
:43:24. > :43:28.for everybody and I can see that investment having a big impact on
:43:29. > :43:31.places like Stoke-on-Trent. Angela Rayner. I have to disagree with
:43:32. > :43:36.that. I don't think grammar schools are an answer to the crisis the
:43:37. > :43:43.government has created in schools. It is a life raft for children.
:43:44. > :43:49.APPLAUSE The crisis in our schools is that
:43:50. > :43:54.98% of schools are seeing significant funding cuts. The
:43:55. > :44:01.government promised in their manifesto that per-pupil funding
:44:02. > :44:04.would be protected, it hasn't. Pupil numbers are increasing, national
:44:05. > :44:09.insurers pressures, we have all these issues that are having an
:44:10. > :44:14.impact on our schools where they aren't looking at facing an 8% cut
:44:15. > :44:18.and the national funding formula is still a very unfair formula that is
:44:19. > :44:25.penalising children. Where are you on grammar schoolsI don't ink they
:44:26. > :44:30.aid social mobility. The evidence is clear it doesn't. There is not a
:44:31. > :44:33.scrap of evidence it does. The attainment gap is greater in Kent as
:44:34. > :44:39.opposed to Hackney, where there are no grammar schools in their area.
:44:40. > :44:45.2.6% of free school meals in grammars whereas in other schools
:44:46. > :44:49.its 14.9%. The evidence is clear. Grammar schools are not the answer.
:44:50. > :44:54.Qualified teachers and money in our state schools is. APPLAUSE
:44:55. > :45:03.options Is it not more of a Conservative driven theme for
:45:04. > :45:06.putting certain money into certain schools for certain children.
:45:07. > :45:17.APPLAUSE. Isabel? The one-size-fits-all policy
:45:18. > :45:22.clearly hasn't worked. When Blair came in, he said education,
:45:23. > :45:28.education, education. You said it's the failures of this Government, but
:45:29. > :45:32.actually, where are we now? We are 15th in the international
:45:33. > :45:37.educational league tables. We are behind Vietnam, so really the system
:45:38. > :45:42.that we've had and that we inherited from the Labour years hasn't worked.
:45:43. > :45:46.I disagree... If you look at the London challenge where Labour did
:45:47. > :45:51.invest all of that money, and we have got a comprehensive state
:45:52. > :45:55.system, actually the attainment gap was narrowed, it was transformative,
:45:56. > :45:59.we wanted that bring that to the Midlands and Manchester. The
:46:00. > :46:03.coalition Government scrapped it and they have not protected funding and
:46:04. > :46:07.Michael Gove said they would be held to account by the league tables and
:46:08. > :46:13.you failed because you have gone down that league table.
:46:14. > :46:19.APPLAUSE. The children who took the tests in
:46:20. > :46:25.the latest standard tables were children educated under Labour,
:46:26. > :46:31.Angela. You, Sir? Do I read correctly that the Government is
:46:32. > :46:38.planning to invest something approaching ?10 billion in free
:46:39. > :46:43.schools over the next period of years to about 20, 21 and we read
:46:44. > :46:47.almost daily reports of the underfunding of general schools,
:46:48. > :46:52.staffing crises, buildings falling to pieces and yet the Government can
:46:53. > :46:54.find ?10 billion for free schools - is that justified?
:46:55. > :47:01.APPLAUSE. Hold on.
:47:02. > :47:09.Let me bring in Douglas Carswell and Peter Coats and we'll come back to
:47:10. > :47:14.you on that? I'm massively in favour of free schools. Any debate about
:47:15. > :47:18.either Governments' record has to acknowledge that in all three
:47:19. > :47:24.parties, there have been some good reformers. Andrew Adonis, Michael
:47:25. > :47:27.Gove, they've given us the academy programme and that's helped and
:47:28. > :47:31.improved things in the education system. I hope Justine builds on
:47:32. > :47:35.that cross party achievement. When it comes to free schools, the reason
:47:36. > :47:41.why I'm so strongly in favour of them is, something that happened in
:47:42. > :47:45.my constituency as a new MP in 2005, a ?16 million brand-new school was
:47:46. > :47:49.opened by Tony Blair three days before the 2005 general election,
:47:50. > :47:53.?16 million it cost, it was closed three years later. The existing
:47:54. > :47:57.system doesn't allocate resources effectively. Imagine what you could
:47:58. > :48:01.do in terms of free schools with that sum of money in a town like
:48:02. > :48:04.Clacton which needs free schools. They are not just the preserve of
:48:05. > :48:07.people in places like London. Do you want to come babble on the point?
:48:08. > :48:13.There is evidence that certain free schools are being opened in areas
:48:14. > :48:17.which do not need them. My view is that there should be equality, that
:48:18. > :48:20.that money should be spread right across the system to give every
:48:21. > :48:27.child a good school in the area where he lives. With respect, Sir...
:48:28. > :48:30.APPLAUSE. With respect, Sir, shouldn't we
:48:31. > :48:34.leave it to the parents of the children to decide if those free
:48:35. > :48:38.schools are needed because by definition you can't open a free
:48:39. > :48:44.school unless there is a need for it. Peter Coates? Gram mar schools
:48:45. > :48:47.are irrelevant and do nothing to improve the schooling for our
:48:48. > :48:52.children. Isabel talked about where we are in the league, we have been
:48:53. > :48:55.in that position for God knows how long and we have had different
:48:56. > :49:04.Governments bring in reform, reform, reform. What the education system
:49:05. > :49:11.needs is - Finland reformed its education system in the 70s and 80s.
:49:12. > :49:13.It has one school system for every child, no private education - one
:49:14. > :49:23.system. APPLAUSE.
:49:24. > :49:29.That is how you get equality of opportunity and we are short of
:49:30. > :49:34.funds, we are short of teachers and they say, they are talking about how
:49:35. > :49:38.wonderful everything is. We can't fund the Health Service properly, we
:49:39. > :49:41.can't fund after-care service properly and we are short of
:49:42. > :49:57.teachers in education. It's all great. You, Sir? Under the national
:49:58. > :50:02.funding, 9,000 schools face cuts. Investing in young people and in
:50:03. > :50:07.youth, that is what you should do. I agree. There is record investment
:50:08. > :50:12.going into our schools. We have had to create lots of more school places
:50:13. > :50:16.because of the demographic bulge of children coming into primary, then
:50:17. > :50:19.moving into secondary. The last Parliament we created 600,000 school
:50:20. > :50:24.places, many of them were free schools but not by any means
:50:25. > :50:30.entirely, we have got to do another 600,000. You raised a good point
:50:31. > :50:36.about where the places were needed. The report that came out earlier
:50:37. > :50:40.this week said overwhelmingly they were so that is good news. As
:50:41. > :50:45.Douglas points out, under free schools, we had local communities
:50:46. > :50:49.able to take their own decisions about schools and that was really
:50:50. > :50:53.important. In term s TfL outcomes, Ofsted's said nine out of ten of our
:50:54. > :50:57.schools almost are good or outstanding, that is a huge rise
:50:58. > :51:01.from 2010. When we inherited a schools system that was seeing about
:51:02. > :51:06.a third of children coming out not even to do the basics on reading and
:51:07. > :51:10.writing, we had to come a long way, but we had year-by-year improving
:51:11. > :51:16.our system and we are going round the world, places like Shanghai in
:51:17. > :51:19.China to bring back the very best in teaching to make sure we can find
:51:20. > :51:23.the best of teaching across England as well to make sure that our
:51:24. > :51:29.teachers know how to teach the best that they possibly can and our
:51:30. > :51:35.children can benefit. More points from the audience. The woman up
:51:36. > :51:40.there? I currently attend a secondary school, an academy.
:51:41. > :51:45.Recently, I'm aware that the year below me are no longer doing work
:51:46. > :51:47.experience. We have a new GCSE, everyone seems so panicked,
:51:48. > :51:55.different schools are deciding what their pass rate is with the new
:51:56. > :51:58.system, I don't understand why we are voting on schools and schools
:51:59. > :52:02.that are trying hard aren't receiving the support they need and
:52:03. > :52:13.there is general information that we do not have. You on the gangway?
:52:14. > :52:19.Last year, only 54% of 11-year-olds reached the required level in Stoke.
:52:20. > :52:26.How can further cuts to the education system raise attainment?
:52:27. > :52:31.And you over there, Sir? Douglas has mentioned the success of the academy
:52:32. > :52:34.system. Why have we recently scrapped that and where's the money
:52:35. > :52:39.gone for that, about ?500 million that we have recently lost to invest
:52:40. > :52:44.in the academy system. There are a lot of questions and different
:52:45. > :52:48.answers. We've only got a few more minutes. I want to raise one other
:52:49. > :52:53.question. Can I come back very briefly on this. 30 seconds? I saw
:52:54. > :52:58.you nodding and smiling when Peter said there shouldn't be any private
:52:59. > :53:02.schools, is it your policy that you should be abolishing them? We should
:53:03. > :53:09.be moving towards a comprehensive system. You can't abolish them. What
:53:10. > :53:13.amazes me about what you said Justine is everything post-2010 that
:53:14. > :53:15.you claim credit for is your what you have done immediately,
:53:16. > :53:20.everything that's bad that's going on at the moment of the Government
:53:21. > :53:24.is the legacy of the last Labour Government, you can't have it both
:53:25. > :53:29.ways, you promised to protect per pupil programme, you have broken
:53:30. > :53:41.that promise. Don't all parties say it wasn't us it was them? I mean the
:53:42. > :53:46.facts are... Let's have a question. Abas I believery hammy, please? Is
:53:47. > :53:55.it ever right to compensate terror suspects? This is the case of the
:53:56. > :53:59.man that allegedly got ?1 million when he left Guantanamo Bay. Is it
:54:00. > :54:05.ever right to compensate terror suspects? It's absolutely deplorable
:54:06. > :54:07.that he should have got that money but even more deplorable that the
:54:08. > :54:11.Government should have lost track of this person, he was a former
:54:12. > :54:15.Guantanamo Bay detainee, how is it that we let this guy leave the
:54:16. > :54:22.country and head off to fight for Jihad?
:54:23. > :54:25.Douglas Carswell? I think what's truly shocking about this case is
:54:26. > :54:30.that we are not more shocked. We are so used to the idea of the British
:54:31. > :54:33.state being so high bound by human rights lawyers and compliance that
:54:34. > :54:39.there's little room for common-sense. We need I think to
:54:40. > :54:43.make certain that in cases such as soldiers being accused of wrongdoing
:54:44. > :54:50.in Iraq and cases like this, we need to make absolutely certain that we
:54:51. > :54:58.are not using legal aid, a million pound for someone in this case it's
:54:59. > :55:07.absolutely outrageous. Peter Coates? He was detained. He was detained.
:55:08. > :55:10.Unlawfully. He was detained unlawfully and he was possibly
:55:11. > :55:16.tortured, I don't know. Began began bay is a pretty awful place. And
:55:17. > :55:25.they put this man in, they had no evidence and they never did produce
:55:26. > :55:28.evidence Guantanamo Bay. Why he was paid compensation I don't know, it
:55:29. > :55:33.must have been hush money. It could have been hush money. The British
:55:34. > :55:39.Government was complicit in Guantanamo Bay and so I don't know
:55:40. > :55:43.all the story. On the face of it it seems terrible and Isis is an
:55:44. > :55:50.absolute abomination and we all want to see the end of it, but this
:55:51. > :55:54.individual, and where it went wrong, how the Security Services lost track
:55:55. > :55:58.of him, that would be my big question. I suppose these things are
:55:59. > :56:04.much more complicate and difficult than we think. Justine Greening? In
:56:05. > :56:08.the end, it depends on whether somebody is innocent or not. As
:56:09. > :56:12.Peter said, if they have been incarcerated for no reason
:56:13. > :56:15.whatsoever that's one thing. If they have been incarcerated because in
:56:16. > :56:18.the end it's been prove than they are a criminal, that's different.
:56:19. > :56:21.When people were finally released from Guantanamo, clearly as a
:56:22. > :56:26.Government, people wanted to look at what the right form of settlement
:56:27. > :56:31.was for people that had been held there effectively unlawfully. I
:56:32. > :56:33.don't know in the end, I don't think anybody really knows what
:56:34. > :56:46.conversation this man was paid or not paid as part of that. Why don't
:56:47. > :56:50.you know and shouldn't you know? There is intelligence and we should
:56:51. > :56:55.respect that. There was no merit in paying him a penny because he was
:56:56. > :57:00.plainly a terrorist, it was said. Do you agree? I agree with the comments
:57:01. > :57:05.made earlier that people will be upset and angered that somebody was
:57:06. > :57:09.given what was considered to be a huge payout, then went off and was
:57:10. > :57:12.able to go abroad and commit terrorism abroad. There's some
:57:13. > :57:17.unanswered questions by that. We have got to be absolutely clear that
:57:18. > :57:21.some of the issues around that were people being unlawfully detained
:57:22. > :57:27.without charge and potentially subject to torture. We can't do that
:57:28. > :57:30.and in fact if we do do things like that, we actually do radicalise
:57:31. > :57:35.people and it's counterproductive. So we've got to make sure that we
:57:36. > :57:47.uphold British laws. OK. You, Sir? One brief comment. Not you, I wanted
:57:48. > :57:54.the man in the second row from the back, let's hear you, please? It
:57:55. > :58:00.makes me absolutely sick to my stomach that British Government
:58:01. > :58:06.releases terrorists yet members of the Armed Forces and veterans are
:58:07. > :58:10.hounded on a state-sponsored witch-hunt. It makes me absolutely
:58:11. > :58:15.sick to my stomach. Breakfast- All right. Thank you.
:58:16. > :58:30.Just before we end, Robert Moss, your question. Nobody is going to be
:58:31. > :58:35.allowed answer it but let's hear it. It's a nice question. Who ate all
:58:36. > :58:39.the pies? Has football lost its sense of humour. Our time is up. We
:58:40. > :58:44.are going to be in Bedford next week, we have Liz Truss and the
:58:45. > :58:48.guitarist from Bombay bicycle club who campaigns to involve young
:58:49. > :58:51.people in politics on the panel. The weekend after that, we are in
:58:52. > :58:57.Sunderland. Bedford or Sunderland, go to the website. The address is
:58:58. > :59:01.there. Five Live carries on this debate on Question Time extra time,
:59:02. > :59:04.but my great thanks to the panel and all of you who came to
:59:05. > :59:08.Stoke-on-Trent tonight where the by-election result will actually be
:59:09. > :59:12.announced in the early hours, as will Copeland. I hope you will stay
:59:13. > :59:14.up for that if you are interested in that. Until next Thursday, good
:59:15. > :59:42.night. A 24-year-old man
:59:43. > :59:46.has been charged with murder. Huntley's definitely
:59:47. > :59:48.hiding something. Only interested in one thing
:59:49. > :59:58.and that's bent coppers. You want to make
:59:59. > :00:01.some sort of a deal?