:00:00. > :00:17.Our panel tonight, the first female Lord Chancellor
:00:18. > :00:23.in its 1000 year history, and Justice Secretary, Liz Truss.
:00:24. > :00:25.The Labour MP who resigned from the Shadow Cabinet,
:00:26. > :00:29.refusing to vote for Article 50, Dawn Butler.
:00:30. > :00:32.The former Liberal Democrat leader, once the holder of the British 100
:00:33. > :00:36.metre record, now in the House of Lords, Menzies Campbell.
:00:37. > :00:38.The Mail on Sunday columnist Peter Hitchens.
:00:39. > :00:40.And the guitarist from Bombay Bicycle Club,
:00:41. > :00:43.whose campaign for young people to get a Brexit to suit
:00:44. > :00:51.them has over 250,000 supporters, Jamie MacColl.
:00:52. > :01:09.As ever, you can join the debate on Facebook,
:01:10. > :01:28.We've reached 8 million young people. 8 million! Your researchers
:01:29. > :01:33.haven't done the job. We can't have gone from quarter of a million to 8
:01:34. > :01:39.million. We will talk about it afterwards outside. Price Waterhouse
:01:40. > :01:43.are needed. Just a reminder you can join the debate on Facebook and
:01:44. > :01:51.Twitter or you can text with your questions. Our first question from
:01:52. > :01:55.Nicholas Smith. Is it acceptable for people to view indecent images of
:01:56. > :01:59.children without the threat of being prosecuted? The key being without
:02:00. > :02:05.the threat of being prosecuted. The leader of the National police chief
:02:06. > :02:09.counsel for child protection said only paedophiles who pose a really
:02:10. > :02:15.significant threat should face jail sentences because the police cannot
:02:16. > :02:20.cope with the increase in reports of child abuse, up 80% in three years.
:02:21. > :02:29.So only those who pose a really significant threat. Dawn Butler. No
:02:30. > :02:33.is the simple answer to that. We see now the consequences of the historic
:02:34. > :02:42.child abuse cases, and we don't know how it all started. And to even
:02:43. > :02:47.suggest that some paedophiles are not as dangerous as others is a
:02:48. > :02:51.serious dangerous road to go down. And actually, it makes me feel so
:02:52. > :02:52.angry and annoyed and physically sick. I'm so angry.
:02:53. > :03:03.APPLAUSE I'm so angry about that suggestion.
:03:04. > :03:08.So you don't think there is such a thing as a really significant
:03:09. > :03:12.threat, as he said? Every threat is a threat. If someone is viewing
:03:13. > :03:16.indecent images of a child, that means the child is at risk and has
:03:17. > :03:20.been at risk because the images have been taken. To think that you can
:03:21. > :03:23.even discuss that it is not a serious issue or they should be
:03:24. > :03:27.treated leniently is absolutely wrong and it should not even enter
:03:28. > :03:31.into the debate. Yes, I know there is a crisis in the police force but
:03:32. > :03:37.this is not the way to deal with it. APPLAUSE
:03:38. > :03:43.Well, there is most certainly a crisis in police forces.
:03:44. > :03:47.Hearts we might come to talk about that later. But it seems to me at
:03:48. > :03:52.the heart of this is the question of how USS risk, and the extent. If it
:03:53. > :03:59.is a risk, that means your assessment could be wrong. It seems
:04:00. > :04:02.against the background of a week in which the long-awaited enquiry into
:04:03. > :04:08.paedophilia actually began taking public evidence, that a suggestion
:04:09. > :04:14.of this kind is unacceptable. It is ill timed. It may reflect the fact
:04:15. > :04:17.that the police are overworked, but there is a way of dealing with that,
:04:18. > :04:18.and that is by giving them more resources.
:04:19. > :04:29.APPLAUSE Liz Truss, we will talk about police
:04:30. > :04:35.numbers in a moment but just stick with the point of the question.
:04:36. > :04:39.Is it acceptable, and is it right for Simon Bailey to have said only
:04:40. > :04:44.paedophiles who pose a really significant threat should get jail
:04:45. > :04:49.sentences? Well, I don't agree with him. We need to prosecute these
:04:50. > :04:55.people who commit these crimes. Dawn is absolutely right. There are real
:04:56. > :05:00.children being abused at the other end of the video link, or have had
:05:01. > :05:05.photographs taken of them. This is a very serious issue we face as a
:05:06. > :05:11.country. Some of our Crown Court is, almost 50% of the cases. We are
:05:12. > :05:16.prosecuting a record number of people for those crimes. We've seen
:05:17. > :05:20.a 140% increase in the number of people jailed for those crimes. What
:05:21. > :05:24.I would say is that the way we prevent these crimes taking place is
:05:25. > :05:27.first of all working with the internet providers, which we are
:05:28. > :05:32.doing, to prevent these images getting there in the first place.
:05:33. > :05:36.And secondly, making sure our children are properly educated so
:05:37. > :05:40.they understand the danger of putting about photographs of
:05:41. > :05:44.themselves, understand the danger of internet pornography, and they can
:05:45. > :05:51.actually be protected and understand the risks they face. So it is not a
:05:52. > :05:55.matter of the police... We need to prevent it to not by saying the
:05:56. > :05:59.people who commit crimes should go free. Instead, we need to make sure
:06:00. > :06:03.children are better protected. But he says the police can't cope and
:06:04. > :06:08.that is why they had to take a different attitude. He is the Chief
:06:09. > :06:13.Constable of Norfolk. I am a Norfolk MP and I have met him and discuss
:06:14. > :06:17.this with him. The police are doing a good job of bringing more people
:06:18. > :06:22.to justice. That is why we are seeing so many cases in our courts.
:06:23. > :06:26.But the long-term solution is to better protect children, to make
:06:27. > :06:31.sure they understand the risks and are less in danger. That is the way
:06:32. > :06:37.to reduce this he knows crime, not by saying that people should not be
:06:38. > :06:41.prosecuted for it. Let's stick with the suggestion that only those who
:06:42. > :06:45.pose a really significant threat should get jail sentences. My own
:06:46. > :06:48.personal response has to be that I do not know because I do not know
:06:49. > :06:52.enough about it. But I think we do need to be careful about rushing
:06:53. > :06:55.into unanimity and saying just because everybody in this room and
:06:56. > :06:59.on this panel regards the sexual abuse of children with a unique
:07:00. > :07:05.horror, that we can't even consider something being put forward by an
:07:06. > :07:09.expert in this matter, who is saying, we don't have the resources
:07:10. > :07:13.to do this. It is all very well to sit here and say, yes, let's carry
:07:14. > :07:18.on doing what we have been doing until now, and ignore him. But in
:07:19. > :07:21.truth, you may find that those who have sat here and said this will, in
:07:22. > :07:27.years to come, because the resources are not there, will fail to do that.
:07:28. > :07:32.But it is child abuse. I know it is and that is the point I have just
:07:33. > :07:35.made. It is something we all began with horror. There are lots of
:07:36. > :07:38.things we regard with horror which are also not being adequately
:07:39. > :07:43.prosecuted or pursued by the law enforcement systems of this country.
:07:44. > :07:47.The point is, if you are going to say loudly, we mustn't do anything,
:07:48. > :07:51.I think you should be careful that people in four or five years' time,
:07:52. > :07:55.when they look at your performance in government, don't find that you
:07:56. > :07:59.have, in fact, done precisely what this Chief Constable is
:08:00. > :08:02.recommending. It is all very well being publicly fashionably militant
:08:03. > :08:04.about a subject but it does not necessarily solve the problem of
:08:05. > :08:09.whether you have enough resources to do it. In all honesty, I have to say
:08:10. > :08:12.that because I am sick of hearing people piling in and saying what
:08:13. > :08:20.they hope everyone will approve of them saying. Well, I'm going to
:08:21. > :08:26.agree with Peter, which I didn't think I would do very often to
:08:27. > :08:31.might. And I agree, it is a question of resources. According to the
:08:32. > :08:35.National Crime Agency, one in 35 British men have a sexual interest
:08:36. > :08:40.in children. Let's say even one tenth of that number look at
:08:41. > :08:43.indecent images online, that is 75,000 people. There simply is not
:08:44. > :08:47.enough space in prisons to lock that many people up. So I think you need
:08:48. > :09:00.to look at alternative methods, whether counselling, or in voluntary
:09:01. > :09:07.chemical castration, or medication. The woman in yellow. I agree with
:09:08. > :09:12.what Jamie just said, and also that you need to look at the root of the
:09:13. > :09:17.issue, of why this is happening. As Liz Truss said, it is 50% of the
:09:18. > :09:22.cases which are sex cases, so why aren't these people getting the help
:09:23. > :09:27.they need. Obviously, some people are just evil. But they obviously
:09:28. > :09:31.need counselling, like Jamie said. Let's move swiftly to the second
:09:32. > :09:36.question, which is the cause for the comments that were made. He said the
:09:37. > :09:42.police can't cope with the increase in reports. We have a question from
:09:43. > :09:49.Siobhan Holland. Can we have that? Are the cuts in police funding
:09:50. > :09:58.putting public safety at risk? This is one area of public safety. Peter
:09:59. > :10:01.Hitchens. Not in themselves, no. We should be careful not to allow
:10:02. > :10:05.ourselves to be diverted into campaigns for extra funding. The
:10:06. > :10:08.problem with the police and the courts and the entire criminal
:10:09. > :10:12.justice system is that for 50 years they have been doing the wrong
:10:13. > :10:16.thing. However hard you work at doing the wrong thing, however
:10:17. > :10:21.vigorously you pursue it, however much money you pour into it, it
:10:22. > :10:25.won't work. The police force was set up by Robert Peel with the simple
:10:26. > :10:32.purpose, to prevent crime. Since it abandoned that function in the
:10:33. > :10:36.1960s, by preventing patrolling, it has become a reactive fire brigade
:10:37. > :10:39.force, which waits for things to happen and reacts to them. The
:10:40. > :10:46.courts are the same. They wait for things to happen. They ceased to
:10:47. > :10:51.determine that macro to stop them happening by a visible presence of
:10:52. > :10:56.policing. Once you stop deterring them, they become much more common.
:10:57. > :10:59.This is also one of the reasons why prisons are incredibly overfull.
:11:00. > :11:03.They have ceased to deter them. People do not go until they have
:11:04. > :11:06.already become habitual criminals and they are impossible to empty and
:11:07. > :11:14.also impossible to build fast enough. You have a complete
:11:15. > :11:18.breakdown... It would be strange to put them in prison before they
:11:19. > :11:26.become criminals. Before the police reforms instituted by Roy Jenkins,
:11:27. > :11:32.we had fewer police than we have now, by a long way, per head of the
:11:33. > :11:37.country, or as a total. Those of us who remember those times, and I am
:11:38. > :11:40.old enough to do so, can tell you this country was policed far more
:11:41. > :11:47.effectively on a far smaller budget in that time than it is now. The
:11:48. > :11:53.woman in White. Bedfordshire Police came out today as being one of the
:11:54. > :12:01.most underperforming. The only force rated inadequate in the country. So
:12:02. > :12:05.my question is, it is fine to say, yes, we need police on the streets,
:12:06. > :12:10.and we would all agree. However, if the funding is not in place, how are
:12:11. > :12:12.these police going to get onto the streets? Liz Truss.
:12:13. > :12:20.APPLAUSE You pointed out that Bedfordshire
:12:21. > :12:24.was rated inadequate. Two thirds of police forces were
:12:25. > :12:28.rated good and outstanding. The reason the Inspectorate gave for the
:12:29. > :12:32.good and outstanding police forces was that they focused more on
:12:33. > :12:37.neighbourhood policing. It is a question of how police forces use
:12:38. > :12:42.resources. Do you agree with Peter Hitchens that before Roy Jenkins it
:12:43. > :12:47.was all right. I am going to agree with Peter because he is right that
:12:48. > :12:50.we should be intervening earlier, preventing crime from taking place.
:12:51. > :12:53.I talked about educating children about sex and relationships to make
:12:54. > :12:59.sure they understand potential dangers of online pornography. We
:13:00. > :13:02.also have the family drug and alcohol Court, which actually works
:13:03. > :13:07.with people with drug addictions or alcohol addictions, helping them get
:13:08. > :13:11.off those addictions so they don't end up in prison and don't end up
:13:12. > :13:16.with their children being taken away. The criminal justice system is
:13:17. > :13:20.moving in that direction, and that is the whole point of today's
:13:21. > :13:24.report. They are saying, let's have more focus on neighbourhood
:13:25. > :13:30.policing, patrolling, to prevent those crimes taking place. But this
:13:31. > :13:35.community here in Bedford, their police force has been rated
:13:36. > :13:40.inadequate. The number of police forces has dropped by 20,000 since
:13:41. > :13:45.2010. You mean the number of constables. Yes, it has fallen. Can
:13:46. > :13:49.you say that it doesn't matter because we just have to do a
:13:50. > :13:53.different kind of policing? The reason we know that is the
:13:54. > :13:57.performance of the Bedfordshire force versus the others, is because
:13:58. > :14:01.Theresa May, when she was Home Secretary, created the rating
:14:02. > :14:05.system, so the public have that transparency, so that people in
:14:06. > :14:09.Bedfordshire can say, and they can vote for their PCC, who is
:14:10. > :14:13.accountable for police in the area, and they can say, this isn't good
:14:14. > :14:18.enough, and other police forces are doing better, so can we look at what
:14:19. > :14:22.they are doing? We have 43 forces across the country, and places like
:14:23. > :14:29.Bedfordshire need to look at what is going on elsewhere. You, in the
:14:30. > :14:33.third row. Do we need 43 forces? Bedfordshire is a small county,
:14:34. > :14:37.close to London. Hertfordshire and Buckinghamshire are close by.
:14:38. > :14:42.Wouldn't it be a better use of resources if they were amalgamated?
:14:43. > :14:46.In response to that, Norfolk and Suffolk are working much more
:14:47. > :14:49.closely together, for example. They integrated their back office, so
:14:50. > :14:54.they can spend more on front line policing. That is an excellent idea.
:14:55. > :14:58.Can we tie together the first question about police not being able
:14:59. > :15:01.to cope with the second question, which is whether there are not
:15:02. > :15:06.enough police, and cuts are putting public safety at risk?
:15:07. > :15:17.I would like to pick up on Peter's point. Does anyone remember Roy
:15:18. > :15:24.Jenkins? I certainly do. I'll never forget him. But you have to remember
:15:25. > :15:28.that crime's changed. There is no trafficking of human beings, there
:15:29. > :15:36.was no incredible use of drugs for raising money. There was no
:15:37. > :15:42.organised crime. So the task twig police face is very very much
:15:43. > :15:51.different in the days to when it was in the days of Dickson and Dock
:15:52. > :15:55.Green. It's very significant that no-one's explored this. If you think
:15:56. > :16:00.you have got a reasonable prospect of being arrested and ultimately
:16:01. > :16:04.convicted, that acts as a deterrent, so the police are on the frontline
:16:05. > :16:07.of that sequence, then the more resources you can give to the
:16:08. > :16:14.police, the more effective the system will be. I think it's quite
:16:15. > :16:17.wrong to to mention the courts, they can't instigate proceedings, cases
:16:18. > :16:21.are brought to the courts and the courts have to determine sentences
:16:22. > :16:25.against the background of the nature of the crime, the issue of
:16:26. > :16:31.deterrents, the availability of alternatives. It's a very
:16:32. > :16:34.complicated thing and it's infinitely more complicated than it
:16:35. > :16:39.was suggested. I want to hear from some more people then go around the
:16:40. > :16:42.panel. Yes? I would like to ask Liz Truss, I think part of the problem
:16:43. > :16:48.is that it's not just about policing but it's about caring about the
:16:49. > :16:55.victims. I mean we don't even care about historic child abuse - is it
:16:56. > :16:59.safe - what's the name of the word - I think that should be abolished
:17:00. > :17:02.because you are undermining the suffering that an awful lot of
:17:03. > :17:07.adults now that have gone through childhood and abuse that it's only
:17:08. > :17:14.recognised after 79 but not before 1979. You at the back? I want to
:17:15. > :17:17.raise two points. I work for Bedfordshire Police and to say that
:17:18. > :17:20.the cuts over the last six years have not influenced policing in
:17:21. > :17:24.Bedfordshire is ridiculous because it has. Good people have walked out
:17:25. > :17:29.that door because they've been made redundant. There's been mergers in
:17:30. > :17:33.Hertfordshire and collaborations. It's a farce to say that it hasn't
:17:34. > :17:38.affected policing in Bedfordshire because it certainly has. I want to
:17:39. > :17:41.raise one more point in that, as far as the funding is concerned, it's
:17:42. > :17:45.not easy to say because we are funded as a rural force, we have
:17:46. > :17:51.Luton, which is the fifth largest policing area in the UK, outside of
:17:52. > :17:53.the Met, and we are not funded to handle those kinds of pressures.
:17:54. > :18:04.OK. APPLAUSE.
:18:05. > :18:10.Dawn Butler? So the last lady just hit the nail on the head, if you
:18:11. > :18:14.like. If you make cuts to a service, it will affect the service, it will
:18:15. > :18:19.affect what happens in that service. The Labour Party bought in the safer
:18:20. > :18:22.neighbourhood teams and in my constituency in Brent and
:18:23. > :18:25.Stonebridge, we had the first set of neighbourhood teams and they would
:18:26. > :18:29.be the same three officers who'll always patrol the area. They got to
:18:30. > :18:33.know the area, it was back to community policing as it was and it
:18:34. > :18:38.worked really well. Then the cuts came in and we saw that change in
:18:39. > :18:44.terms of the community's relationship with the police and the
:18:45. > :18:48.police ability to do the jobs. Peter talked about prisons being
:18:49. > :18:55.overfilled. I agree, but then we have look at rehabilitation and the
:18:56. > :18:59.courts, the Probation Service. All these pillars of our justice system
:19:00. > :19:04.are being cut and it affects the system and it affects people. It
:19:05. > :19:08.makes people less safe. I got burglared, I was told I had to wait
:19:09. > :19:12.six hours for the police, I sat in the cold for six hours for the
:19:13. > :19:16.police to come with the door and window smashed in. You can't say you
:19:17. > :19:21.will cut services and it will remain the same. Ming says crime's changed,
:19:22. > :19:27.it has, but you still need police officers. Oh, yes, I don't dispute
:19:28. > :19:34.that. We are on the same page. We are on the same page.
:19:35. > :19:39.APPLAUSE. Jamie MacColl? I had a run-in with
:19:40. > :19:43.Bedfordshire Police on the way here. We shouldn't laugh because they did
:19:44. > :19:50.a very good job from what I could see. You must give us the detail -
:19:51. > :19:56.what do you mean they had a very good job? I was having a coffee in a
:19:57. > :20:00.local hotel and there was a drunk man harassing a member of staff and
:20:01. > :20:06.they came very quickly. You didn't have a run-in with them? No, no... I
:20:07. > :20:09.thought this was going to be an exciting moment of a revelation. I
:20:10. > :20:17.was about to offer you legal representation. I agree, it's a
:20:18. > :20:21.question of resources I think. Bedfordshire's police only spends ?7
:20:22. > :20:26.per head comment paired to ?25 a head for the rest of the country and
:20:27. > :20:31.I just think it's another canary in the mind that the public sector cuts
:20:32. > :20:35.are making us less safe and cared for.
:20:36. > :20:40.APPLAUSE. There are a number of people with
:20:41. > :20:45.their hands up. Liz Truss has heard from the woman at the back about the
:20:46. > :20:49.effects of the cuts. There's been a lot of points raised but can you
:20:50. > :20:54.answer that point? Of course it's about the money we spend on the
:20:55. > :20:57.system and the police budget has been protected, but it's also about
:20:58. > :21:02.the way we deploy resources and use them better and this is the point
:21:03. > :21:06.about having more resources deployed in neighbourhood policing. That is a
:21:07. > :21:11.decision for the local Chief Constable and we do have very
:21:12. > :21:16.varying performance of police forces right across the country. I just
:21:17. > :21:20.also wanted to agree with the lady in the front who raised the issue of
:21:21. > :21:24.the victims of sexual crime. I think there's more we can do to help
:21:25. > :21:28.victims of sexual crime. One of the things I'm dog with the court
:21:29. > :21:33.service is making sure that child victims are able to be
:21:34. > :21:41.cross-examined pretrial, not have to give evidence in open court -- I'm
:21:42. > :21:46.doing. It can be very intimidating. I don't understand how a day before
:21:47. > :21:51.October 1st you weren't abused even if you went through ten years of
:21:52. > :21:57.your childhood in abuse but you are abused if you are so much accosted
:21:58. > :22:00.by a postman. Abuse is abuse on any level, I'm saying please acknowledge
:22:01. > :22:05.the suffering, that not just myself, but a lot of people in this country
:22:06. > :22:09.- if that safe rule isn't abolished, it doesn't acknowledge us, it's not
:22:10. > :22:12.about the money, it's acknowledging, we don't want another slap on the
:22:13. > :22:13.face that what happened to us didn't matter.
:22:14. > :22:23.APPLAUSE. As Justice Secretary, you heard what
:22:24. > :22:27.the woman at the back said about Bedfordshire and the police and the
:22:28. > :22:30.changes. What is the one thing you would do positively to improve
:22:31. > :22:34.policing, you have a chance just to say in this country - is it more
:22:35. > :22:38.money, more police? What would you actually want to do? Of course I'm
:22:39. > :22:41.responsible for the courts and prisons and the Home Secretary is
:22:42. > :22:44.responsible for the police forces, but we work very closely together.
:22:45. > :22:48.One of the things that I think is important is a criminal justice
:22:49. > :22:52.system works as a whole and we work as much as possible to make sure we
:22:53. > :22:59.do things early. So one of the things we are working on is the
:23:00. > :23:02.police having more powers to intervene to take steps before
:23:03. > :23:08.somebody's committed a serious crime. Likewise with the court which
:23:09. > :23:13.is what I was saying to Ming is actually, when a judge sees a less
:23:14. > :23:18.serious offence coming them, I want to see more review prosecutions so
:23:19. > :23:22.that somebody can come back again and again and actually see the same
:23:23. > :23:27.judge and the judge's authority can help prevent further crimes being
:23:28. > :23:31.committed. So I think having people at the frontline, whether those are
:23:32. > :23:34.police officers or judges or magistrates, can help people before
:23:35. > :23:44.they commit crimes that end up leaving prison. I think that is very
:23:45. > :23:48.important. Quantity isn't everything as I can tell you from very painful
:23:49. > :23:52.experience. If they give you the wrong antibiotic for a disease, it
:23:53. > :23:56.doesn't matter how much they give to you, it still won't make it better
:23:57. > :24:00.until they change the drug. We are doing the wrong thing. What people
:24:01. > :24:05.want in this country is a presence of authority on the streets
:24:06. > :24:10.preventing disorder and preventing crime. There isn't actually all that
:24:11. > :24:13.much, as I think Dawn probably knows, that a police officer can do
:24:14. > :24:16.for you after a crime has been committed. He can't put your home
:24:17. > :24:21.back together after it's been burglared. What we want is for
:24:22. > :24:26.police to prevent a burglary in the first place. I've got to chair that
:24:27. > :24:33.and we have a lot of questions. Very quick point. Don't think
:24:34. > :24:37.amalgamations always produce success. Local influence which
:24:38. > :24:42.previously was very important has literally been put to one side.
:24:43. > :24:47.There is an important relationship between the local community and
:24:48. > :24:54.those who police it. Don't believe that a large scale amalgamation will
:24:55. > :24:58.make a difference. APPLAUSE.
:24:59. > :25:02.. Sorry, if we went on for two hours I would take all the points but we
:25:03. > :25:06.only have an hour. We are going to be in Sunderland next week and
:25:07. > :25:10.Bognor Regis the week after. If you would like to come, the address is
:25:11. > :25:13.on the screen. We have had lots of questions on our next topic as well.
:25:14. > :25:25.Heather Jones, you have the question? Should EU citizens it'
:25:26. > :25:30.right to live here be a bargaining chip -- EU citizens' rights. Liz
:25:31. > :25:35.Truss? We are absolutely clear that we want EU citizens to have the
:25:36. > :25:40.right to live here. But that has to be part of our negotiations with the
:25:41. > :25:44.European Union. It's going to be an early priority in the negotiations
:25:45. > :25:49.once we have triggered Article 50, but the issue is, at the moment,
:25:50. > :25:53.that we have UK citizens living in Europe. We want to protect their
:25:54. > :26:02.interests as well. So they are a bargaining chip? Well, it is part of
:26:03. > :26:07.the discussion that we are having with the European Union absolutely
:26:08. > :26:12.and that's what other countries in Europe want to discuss with us. It
:26:13. > :26:16.has to be a resick Rickle arrangement. Whether it's about
:26:17. > :26:23.trade or criminal justice, we have to find an agreement -- reciprocal.
:26:24. > :26:27.Let me clarify this. You are saying three million EU nationals who live
:26:28. > :26:32.here in the UK are a bargaining chip with the E Snitch What I am saying
:26:33. > :26:37.is, the status of EU nationals is of course part of the discussion, part
:26:38. > :26:41.of the reciprocal arrangements for when we leave the EU, as are our
:26:42. > :26:46.discussions about criminal justice, one of the things I'm involved in is
:26:47. > :26:52.discussions about family justice. Fine... Custody arrangements. My
:26:53. > :26:57.point is... Answer the question Heather Jones asked. We need to
:26:58. > :27:02.ensure that citizens are also protected. We are confident we can
:27:03. > :27:08.achieve a deal. Would you agree with Liam Fox that their status is one of
:27:09. > :27:12.the main cards in the negotiations, are those words you would endorse?
:27:13. > :27:15.What I would say in my own words... So you wouldn't endorse it?
:27:16. > :27:19.Important parts of the discussion. Peter Hitchens? The European Union
:27:20. > :27:26.regards British citizens on its territory as a bargaining chip so I
:27:27. > :27:30.really don't see why we should be at all hesitant about returning the
:27:31. > :27:34.favour so why not just say yes of course, everything's going to be a
:27:35. > :27:37.bargaining chip from now on, it's not particularly distressing to have
:27:38. > :27:42.to admit these things are going on. We face a long period of extremely
:27:43. > :27:46.hard bargaining and if we bargain soft, we'll lose, as you always do.
:27:47. > :27:50.I don't see why people are being so coy and I don't see why Liz Truss is
:27:51. > :27:54.being so coy about simply saying yes. The thing which annoys me about
:27:55. > :27:56.this is that the behaviour of the House of Lords.
:27:57. > :28:06.APPLAUSE. I can't... It's a very simple point.
:28:07. > :28:09.I mean, I'm not actually in favour of a referendum, they are horrible,
:28:10. > :28:13.but there's been one. If the Government came to the House of
:28:14. > :28:17.Lords and say, we would like to bring back, as they should, a
:28:18. > :28:20.selective state grammar schools and legislate to make that legal again
:28:21. > :28:24.which it isn't currently, the House of Lords would turn round and say,
:28:25. > :28:29.you can't do that, you haven't got a mandate. The same people who last
:28:30. > :28:32.night voted against the mandate of the referendum would refuse to
:28:33. > :28:36.legislate in favour of gram mar schools because they would say there
:28:37. > :28:39.was no mandate. They are unprincipled and their behaviour
:28:40. > :28:44.last night was totally principled. APPLAUSE.
:28:45. > :28:48.Sir Menzies Campbell, you are a member of the House of Lords and you
:28:49. > :28:53.have spoken in this debate, you voted in this debate. Indeed. Go on
:28:54. > :28:56.then? I'm entirely unprincipled about these matters. It seems to me,
:28:57. > :28:59.you have got to look at the circumstances here. It's quite right
:29:00. > :29:03.to mention what Liam Fox said and, if I may say so, this is a very
:29:04. > :29:08.elegant way of trying to get around that. The fact of the matter is,
:29:09. > :29:11.that's what he said, and there are people in Government, supported by
:29:12. > :29:16.people in Government, who believe that's the right way to go. There
:29:17. > :29:20.are about three million people living in the UK who're EU nationals
:29:21. > :29:24.but not from the United Kingdom. Some are mothers and fathers of
:29:25. > :29:29.British citizens because their children were born in Britain. Their
:29:30. > :29:33.husbands -- they're husbands and wives of British citizens. Are we
:29:34. > :29:37.seriously suggesting that we'd tell these mothers, fathers, husbands and
:29:38. > :29:42.wives, that they must be expelled from the United Kingdom? Are we
:29:43. > :29:50.really seriously joops No-one's saying that. If you don't have a...
:29:51. > :29:54.You said that. Nobody's said that. Nobody's said that. Misses May said
:29:55. > :29:59.she would make sure that British and EU citizens would be protected.
:30:00. > :30:04.Months ago! Well, the way to protect them...
:30:05. > :30:10.APPLAUSE. The way to protect them is by a
:30:11. > :30:15.statutory protection. If it was you or me engaged in this... You want to
:30:16. > :30:21.listen to what Mr Tebbit said yesterday. Yes. What did he say? He
:30:22. > :30:26.called them foreigners. What is wrong with that? What's wrong with
:30:27. > :30:32.it? ! AUDIENCE: Boo. He called them
:30:33. > :30:37.foreigners. What's wrong with it? These are people who've made their
:30:38. > :30:43.lives in the United Kingdom, they have children here.
:30:44. > :30:54.Fair play. Make your point, if you would. The point is this. Mr Tebbit
:30:55. > :31:01.said you are arguing about this and that. The people have made this
:31:02. > :31:09.choice. We have voted to get out of the EU. Did you vote that people who
:31:10. > :31:17.were EU citizens but not UK citizens should be made to leave the UK?
:31:18. > :31:24.Nobody has. You are protecting people who are not British. Mrs May
:31:25. > :31:28.has said that no deal is better than a poor deal. If there is no deal,
:31:29. > :31:32.what is the position going to be of those citizens of EU countries who
:31:33. > :31:42.are not citizens of the United Kingdom? Very briefly, Liz Truss.
:31:43. > :31:46.The vote was all about triggering Article 50, not about the deal with
:31:47. > :31:52.the EU. We have the great repeal bill going through later which will
:31:53. > :31:59.be about the deal with the EU. The House of Lords are trying to
:32:00. > :32:03.hijack... No, we are not. The vote on Article 50. It was simply a
:32:04. > :32:10.question of, do you endure the British people's decision to leave
:32:11. > :32:15.the EU? You will have the opportunity to fully express your
:32:16. > :32:19.views on all of this at that point, which is the proper time, not for
:32:20. > :32:23.the Article 50, which is a simple question of, do you support the will
:32:24. > :32:24.of the British people as they voted in the referendum?
:32:25. > :32:33.APPLAUSE Very quickly.
:32:34. > :32:37.I am accused of hijacking. I accept that the House of Commons has
:32:38. > :32:40.superiority over the House of Lords when it comes to legislation. The
:32:41. > :32:44.House of Lords has passed an amendment which is going back to the
:32:45. > :32:49.House of Commons. If the House of Commons rejects it, then the House
:32:50. > :32:54.of Commons is sovereign. I accept that and am not trying to hijack
:32:55. > :32:58.anything. But I am trying to reflect and represent the interests of the 3
:32:59. > :32:59.million people who work in the National Health Service, in our
:33:00. > :33:05.universities... APPLAUSE
:33:06. > :33:19.The woman in Orange. I think it's appalling that people
:33:20. > :33:23.could even consider making people who lived in this country, who have
:33:24. > :33:29.made it their home, to send them back. As you say, we have parents.
:33:30. > :33:32.What about the teachers? If we are going to have teachers to teach
:33:33. > :33:38.French and Spanish to our kids, I would rather they were French and
:33:39. > :33:43.Spanish than English people. But Liz Truss says they will be allowed to
:33:44. > :33:47.stay. You don't know that. Who would we get to work, for anybody who
:33:48. > :33:53.works in London, who would be serving our coffee, selling
:33:54. > :33:58.sandwiches? You are not going to get English people to take those jobs.
:33:59. > :34:03.Your point is there is no guarantee and Liz Truss is refusing to give
:34:04. > :34:07.one. What we have said is that this is a very high priority in
:34:08. > :34:13.negotiations. We are confident we will secure a deal with other EU
:34:14. > :34:16.countries. We need to protect the interests of UK citizens living
:34:17. > :34:21.elsewhere in Europe. They are also extremely important and we must not
:34:22. > :34:26.forget about them. But that was not what this week's debate in the House
:34:27. > :34:30.of Lords was about. It was about do we trigger Article 50, do we follow
:34:31. > :34:38.through on the vote of the British people in the referendum. And I
:34:39. > :34:42.think it is bad faith... Come on! Bad faith of the House of Lords not
:34:43. > :34:53.to follow through on that. Dawn Butler. So, wherever we go from here
:34:54. > :34:58.has to be for the 100%. Not the 51.8%, or the 48%, but for everyone.
:34:59. > :35:00.What is the best deal for everyone? That is what we have to look at.
:35:01. > :35:09.APPLAUSE There are 1.8 million people that
:35:10. > :35:14.work in London. The job of the Lords is to look at a
:35:15. > :35:18.bill, scrutinise it and then make the bill better. That is what they
:35:19. > :35:21.do in the Lords. That is what they have always done and that is their
:35:22. > :35:27.job, and that is what they have done here. They have looked up the bill.
:35:28. > :35:31.No, the vote was about leaving the EU, so we are leaving the U. Now
:35:32. > :35:38.what we talk about is how do we leave the EU and what terms and what
:35:39. > :35:42.is the plan. Hold on. Let her have her say. If it is a priority to
:35:43. > :35:47.protect the status of EU citizens, put it on the face of the bill. You
:35:48. > :35:49.shouldn't be worried about that. You shouldn't be concerned about that.
:35:50. > :35:58.APPLAUSE Menzies Campbell can make the moral
:35:59. > :36:03.case better than I can. If we are told the country is open
:36:04. > :36:08.for business, and we need to remain attractive to potential migrants. If
:36:09. > :36:12.I was highly skilled and looking at the UK and considering working here,
:36:13. > :36:15.if I did not think my future would be secure, why would I come in the
:36:16. > :36:18.first place? APPLAUSE
:36:19. > :36:25.Also, any sort of leveraged that we would get using EU citizens, which I
:36:26. > :36:29.don't think we should do, would be less valuable than the goodwill that
:36:30. > :36:33.a guarantee of their status would secure.
:36:34. > :36:36.We are about to enter years of negotiations with the EU and need to
:36:37. > :36:46.be able to show that we can give as well as take. Third row from the
:36:47. > :36:49.back. I am sick and tired of hearing politicians and everybody say that
:36:50. > :36:54.British people don't know what we voted for. We voted to get out of
:36:55. > :36:58.the single market. We voted to get out of the EU and we voted to become
:36:59. > :37:06.Great Britain again and not part of Europe. I'm sick of people saying we
:37:07. > :37:10.can't use the word foreigner about people that have come here. My wife
:37:11. > :37:15.is Russian. She is a foreigner, but she's my wife and I'm proud of her.
:37:16. > :37:25.I think we ought to stop messing around and allow Brexit to get on.
:37:26. > :37:32.Get out and stay out. Your wife is your wife, but she is not an EU
:37:33. > :37:40.citizen, not one of the 3 million EU citizens. What do you say about
:37:41. > :37:44.them? I live in a block of ten places. Eight of them are foreigners
:37:45. > :37:50.but they are still my friends. So you would like a guarantee? No. I
:37:51. > :37:57.want England to look after its own first. And you, sir. I speak on the
:37:58. > :38:02.half of my wife who has been hit since 1972, worked here, has no
:38:03. > :38:06.criminal record, has not been on benefits, has retired here, we
:38:07. > :38:09.bought our house here and now she has a threat of being moved. She
:38:10. > :38:14.knows this country more than her own country because she has spent most
:38:15. > :38:20.of her life here. Do you think that is fair? Liz Truss. I want to be
:38:21. > :38:24.able to guarantee your wife the ability to stay here, along with the
:38:25. > :38:29.other a use of the sons who currently work in our country. But
:38:30. > :38:35.we have to do these things in the right order. The first thing is that
:38:36. > :38:39.we need to trigger Article 50 to get the negotiations started. That is
:38:40. > :38:43.absolutely what the Prime Minister is focused on, what this debate is
:38:44. > :38:50.about. Then we have a great repeal Bill, where we discuss the details
:38:51. > :38:55.and terms of the deal. I am sorry, we are going back to a fascist state
:38:56. > :39:01.here. You can't take people out after so many years living here in
:39:02. > :39:05.contributing. Hang on, nobody has talked about chucking anybody out at
:39:06. > :39:10.all. Nobody has advocated it, suggested it, it is not under
:39:11. > :39:14.discussion. We need to be aware that when these negotiations get going
:39:15. > :39:18.there are many very hard points, from fisheries to the right to live
:39:19. > :39:25.in places, which are going to have to be dealt with by us with European
:39:26. > :39:28.Union negotiators. If we give away a profoundly important negotiating
:39:29. > :39:32.point before we even go into the chamber, we are simply cutting our
:39:33. > :39:39.hands. What is the point of doing that? You just don't do it. I am no
:39:40. > :39:43.friend of this Government, I think it is ridiculous, but I really think
:39:44. > :39:47.it is absurd to suggest that Government should give up a key
:39:48. > :39:53.negotiating position just before it goes into negotiations. Do you
:39:54. > :39:57.equate fishing rights with his wife's and people like that? Those
:39:58. > :40:01.whose livelihoods have been destroyed by the theft of fishing
:40:02. > :40:05.grounds in the European Union might well take way to them. How can they
:40:06. > :40:12.be negotiating point when the Government keeps repeating that we
:40:13. > :40:16.will let them stay anyway. Briefing is not negotiable, as anyone who has
:40:17. > :40:23.been briefed by a politician knows. The woman in the third row. I am a
:40:24. > :40:27.migrant and a foreigner. I have been here over 20 years. The real issue
:40:28. > :40:31.we are not talking about is what the Home Office is doing at the minute.
:40:32. > :40:36.We have in Bedford many cases of people who have applied to have
:40:37. > :40:40.residency. They have an 85 page document to fill-in. I have friends
:40:41. > :40:44.who have been living in 40 years, married with children, and they have
:40:45. > :40:50.been refused to have a British passport. So actually, it is already
:40:51. > :40:53.happening now. We are saying the government is promising it, but
:40:54. > :40:58.actually the Home Office is making it very, very difficult. If you want
:40:59. > :41:02.to apply, you either have to be a lawyer, or somebody who is going to
:41:03. > :41:08.spend a huge amount of time to read all those documents. So I think we
:41:09. > :41:16.need to be careful, and I think Mr Campbell has done a great job. Thank
:41:17. > :41:25.you very much. The woman in the second row from the back. I think
:41:26. > :41:29.what Jamie said hit it on the head. It is about goodwill. And you are
:41:30. > :41:33.saying about, we go into negotiations and we cut off our
:41:34. > :41:37.hands if we say they can stay and we give them some immunity. No,
:41:38. > :41:42.actually we are doing something of goodwill, something we believe in.
:41:43. > :41:46.How can you expect the House of Lords to vote to enact article 50th
:41:47. > :41:50.they fundamentally believe that we should safeguard those people's
:41:51. > :41:53.writes to stay in the UK? APPLAUSE
:41:54. > :42:00.Liz Truss, before we go on, can you answer the point the woman made
:42:01. > :42:05.about the 85 page document that even now have to be filled in by those
:42:06. > :42:10.trying to establish residency? Are you in favour of that? Yes,
:42:11. > :42:17.because it is important that we have proper checks on people who are
:42:18. > :42:21.seeking residency in this country. And we have had, ever since I have
:42:22. > :42:26.been involved in politics, issues with things not being processed
:42:27. > :42:31.properly. It is important that the Home Office has control of our
:42:32. > :42:34.borders and has proper checks on people, so that we know that they
:42:35. > :42:42.are legitimately here in this country. That is right for everybody
:42:43. > :42:47.who is a legitimate individual, who achieves residency, or succeeds in
:42:48. > :42:51.getting into this country. People do not like unfairness in the system.
:42:52. > :42:56.In fact, it was one of the reasons why people voted to leave the
:42:57. > :43:04.European Union, so we could gain full control of our borders. There
:43:05. > :43:06.are still hands are up. We can't solve all these problems so I'm
:43:07. > :43:15.going onto another question. Brenda Evans. Does the Copeland by-election
:43:16. > :43:19.result proved Labour is slipping into obscurity under Corbyn's
:43:20. > :43:26.leadership? The Tories took a by-election from Labour which has
:43:27. > :43:32.not happened for 30 years. Jamie MacColl, what is your view of Corbyn
:43:33. > :43:37.and Labour? I think the Labour Party is in crisis at the moment and it is
:43:38. > :43:41.not all Corbyn's fault. He definitely inherited a tainted
:43:42. > :43:45.brand, but he has made it far worse. You just need to hear reports of how
:43:46. > :43:52.he goes down on the doorstep to realise that. Are you a member? I
:43:53. > :43:58.am, but I have certainly considered getting rid of it for the last
:43:59. > :44:04.couple of years. The Labour Party! Getting rid of my membership card.
:44:05. > :44:10.He does not just play badly in Stoke and Copeland and in the North, but
:44:11. > :44:16.where I am from in Hornsey and Wood Green, which you would expect to be
:44:17. > :44:20.classic Corbyn territory, the Islington elite, basically. But his
:44:21. > :44:28.strategy for Brexit is clearly alienating swathes of the party.
:44:29. > :44:35.Which bit of his tactic on Brexit, voting for it? Yes. As John Curtice
:44:36. > :44:40.has pointed out last week, although most Labour constituencies voted for
:44:41. > :44:44.Brexit, the majority of Labour voters in those constituencies were
:44:45. > :44:50.Remain supporters. So not backing a second referendum, like the Lib Dems
:44:51. > :44:56.are doing, appealing to stay in the single market would be more in June
:44:57. > :45:00.with the voters. What is your prediction of their future, if you
:45:01. > :45:04.think they are slipping into obscurity? I have is hot -- I have
:45:05. > :45:07.hope for the Labour Party but they need to start focusing on the one
:45:08. > :45:12.thing that both the members, the voters and the MPs can agree on,
:45:13. > :45:17.which is that the British economy has failed large parts of the
:45:18. > :45:20.country for the last few decades. Inequalities between the regions,
:45:21. > :45:25.zero-hours contracts, the dominance of the City, the future of work. I
:45:26. > :45:29.want a Labour Party that will talk about the fact that 47% of jobs are
:45:30. > :45:37.in danger of being automated in the next couple of decades. Labour needs
:45:38. > :45:41.to be offering a new deal, not sticking to the same line, that they
:45:42. > :45:45.are the only party that can protect us from public service cuts. It did
:45:46. > :45:50.not work before and it is clearly not working now, if the Copeland
:45:51. > :45:54.by-election is anything to go by. Dawn Butler, you nominated but did
:45:55. > :46:00.not vote for Jeremy Corbyn, is that right? I did vote for Jeremy Corbyn.
:46:01. > :46:09.Not first, but I did vote for him. What do you mean? You vote for
:46:10. > :46:14.first, second, third. Your first choice? Andy Burnham. So you didn't
:46:15. > :46:20.vote for Jeremy Corbyn until Andy Burnham had fallen out. I did vote
:46:21. > :46:25.for him, though. It is unfair to say that I didn't if I did. For him and
:46:26. > :46:33.Andy Burnham. Which do you prefer? Well... It is not about which I
:46:34. > :46:37.prefer, actually, because we are all members of the Labour Party and they
:46:38. > :46:43.both stood for the leadership. The thing is this, that at that time I
:46:44. > :46:48.think Labour kind of lost its identity. Jamie is right, where was
:46:49. > :46:53.Labour's identity? We were fighting whether we were going to support the
:46:54. > :46:58.Conservative Party welfare for Bill. I could not believe I was having
:46:59. > :47:01.this debate in my own party, because obviously it was a bad bill, bad for
:47:02. > :47:07.the people we cared about. This was why it was important to have Jeremy
:47:08. > :47:12.as part of that mix. So at that point, when Jeremy was the only
:47:13. > :47:16.person who voted against it, along with me. I voted against the welfare
:47:17. > :47:24.for Bill. I knew that was the direction the party should be going
:47:25. > :47:28.in. Come to Copeland and last week's by-election, and the public opinion
:47:29. > :47:29.surveys which show more Labour supporters are dissatisfied with
:47:30. > :47:41.Jeremy Corbyn than are satisfied. We won one and I want to
:47:42. > :47:44.congratulate Gareth Snell because he gets forgotten in all of this. It
:47:45. > :47:49.was disappointing to have lost Copeland. I didn't go because I
:47:50. > :48:00.suffer from car sickness and I heard the roads are really bad. That
:48:01. > :48:07.doesn't sound like a warrior? I did a lot of telephone... Well, you need
:48:08. > :48:12.the fix the train system as well in Copeland but that's another issue.
:48:13. > :48:19.By Kells are S good. I got the train to Copeland. The most ingenius
:48:20. > :48:22.explanation I've had. I did a lot of telephone canvassing both in
:48:23. > :48:30.Copeland and Stoke. What went wrong in Copeland? There was lots of
:48:31. > :48:37.dissatisfaction, a lot of stuff around nuclear and they didn't
:48:38. > :48:42.believe it was wanted. Why was that? It's true because of what Jeremy's
:48:43. > :48:46.position used to be. They made sure the Tory party put leaflets out
:48:47. > :48:50.saying this is Jeremy's position even though it wasn't. It was
:48:51. > :48:56.disappointing and we lost. The Labour Party has to do better,
:48:57. > :49:00.absolutely. When your Shadow Chancellor John McDonnell says a
:49:01. > :49:11.soft coup is under way, planned coordinated fully resourced
:49:12. > :49:15.perpetrated by an alliance between the Murdoch media, do you believe
:49:16. > :49:21.that? I'm not sure what a soft coup is, to be honest. A rough coup then.
:49:22. > :49:25.John McDonnell explained that saying basically it was right grumpy and
:49:26. > :49:29.then now, the Labour Party - we have to talk about where the Labour Party
:49:30. > :49:33.is today - what is the language of the Labour Party today? I'm asking
:49:34. > :49:37.whether there is a coup in progress to try to get rid of him? The
:49:38. > :49:40.language of the Labour Party today is talking about unity, talking
:49:41. > :49:45.about where we are with our policies and what we can talk to people about
:49:46. > :49:48.and we need to make sure that - at the moment there's a 10-point policy
:49:49. > :49:51.plan - that needs to be whittled down to at least five because I
:49:52. > :49:56.can't remember all ten of them and we need to be all-singing... I know
:49:57. > :50:00.it's bad but I can read them to you because I have them written down.
:50:01. > :50:06.Spare us. We all need to sing from the same Hymnsheet. Sir Menzies
:50:07. > :50:08.Campbell? I hesitate to intrude on private grief because the discussion
:50:09. > :50:14.we have just had between the two Labour Party members... It's not
:50:15. > :50:18.private grief. I actually agree... All right, public grief. I agree we
:50:19. > :50:23.need to identify Labour's policies. I think you said that. We need to
:50:24. > :50:27.sell it clearly. I know a bit about leadership. Slipping into obscurity?
:50:28. > :50:43.Well... I'm on Question Time. That's not
:50:44. > :51:00.obscurity! I think Jeremy Corbyn ought to look
:51:01. > :51:05.in the mirror and ask himself if if he's the right person to be leader.
:51:06. > :51:10.I did that. If your leadership is stopping the progress of the party,
:51:11. > :51:14.you've no obligation or entitlement, other than to say, look, I'm going
:51:15. > :51:20.to go, and let someone else take over. Now, I'm by no means convinced
:51:21. > :51:23.that someone else would necessarily be able to knit together the
:51:24. > :51:29.different elements of the Labour Party because you still have what's
:51:30. > :51:33.rather loosely called the Blairite stream and that's still fairly
:51:34. > :51:38.strong. On the other hand, you have a lot of MPs who are supportive of
:51:39. > :51:41.Corbyn and of course you have a party in the country that supports
:51:42. > :51:48.Corbyn. That's one great success he's achieved. Signed up party,
:51:49. > :51:53.people who pay... That's been a huge success. The rest of us are envious,
:51:54. > :51:57.to put it mildly. The fact of the matter is, that if you are steering
:51:58. > :52:01.the ship and you can't steer it in a way that's going to help us,
:52:02. > :52:04.metaphors are greating strained, you have a duty to say to yourself,
:52:05. > :52:05.look, I should step down and let someone else do it.
:52:06. > :52:16.OK. Liz Truss? I went canvassing in both Stoke and
:52:17. > :52:20.Copeland. What I noticed for the first time, and I was brought up in
:52:21. > :52:25.Leeds in the 80s and I can tell you the Conservatives were not very
:52:26. > :52:29.popular there at that time, is a huge change in attitude. I had
:52:30. > :52:33.people coming up to me saying, I've been a life-long supporter of the
:52:34. > :52:37.Labour Party but I like Theresa May, I like what she's doing, she's a
:52:38. > :52:41.serious woman, she's got a plan for this country. We are not talking
:52:42. > :52:47.about her, we are talking about whether... Hang on, the point I'm
:52:48. > :52:53.making... No, Liz... Let me finish my point. Your point, is Labour
:52:54. > :52:58.slipping into obscurity? My point is that people who're life long Labour
:52:59. > :53:02.voters, they are now saying, we back the Conservative Party, the
:53:03. > :53:06.Conservative Party is the party that understands working people,
:53:07. > :53:13.understands... It's the most... Enough, enough, enough! No, this is
:53:14. > :53:17.enough! The most insulting group. You're saying you're the voice of
:53:18. > :53:30.the working class people. Don't insult people, it's just outrageous.
:53:31. > :53:36.Hang on, ladies, to be fair, you turned the question into praise for
:53:37. > :53:39.the PM. Peter Hitchens? On the question of Jeremy Corbyn, people
:53:40. > :53:42.repeatedly say it, I hear it about nine times a week, the Labour Party
:53:43. > :53:46.can't win a general election with Jeremy Corbyn as leader. This is
:53:47. > :53:48.perfectly true. It's not very important because the Labour Party
:53:49. > :53:52.can't win a general election with anybody as leader.
:53:53. > :53:56.APPLAUSE. It is a dead party. The man who
:53:57. > :54:02.killed it was not Jeremy Corbyn and Jeremy Corbyn just sits on the
:54:03. > :54:08.coffin and moans. The man who killed it was one Anthony Charles Linton
:54:09. > :54:12.Blair. He killed it fundamentally with the Iraq war which destroyed it
:54:13. > :54:19.and left it completely demoralised. He then killed it by persuading or
:54:20. > :54:22.by allowing the huge amounts of money which he used to raise from
:54:23. > :54:25.billionaire donors to shift to the Conservative Party. The reason they
:54:26. > :54:28.shifted to the Conservative Party was because the billionaire donors
:54:29. > :54:31.realised that the New Labour project was now safe in the hands of people
:54:32. > :54:36.like Liz Truss who's actually Liberal Democrat as far as I know.
:54:37. > :54:39.And so we have a bizarre situation in British politics where the
:54:40. > :54:43.Conservative Party has become the Labour Party, the Labour Party has
:54:44. > :54:50.died and been replaced by the Scottish Nationalists in Scotland
:54:51. > :54:59.and almost - I admit it's nearly as bad as algebra - but what I'm saying
:55:00. > :55:04.is... You, Sir? We only have a couple of minutes, come on? Speak
:55:05. > :55:10.your mind? Clearly the biggest thing in politics at the moment is Brexit.
:55:11. > :55:12.You know where you stand with the Conservatives, they're request going
:55:13. > :55:16.to deliver on it and they've said that. The Liberal Democrats want to
:55:17. > :55:19.block and overturn it, we know that. But you don't know where you stand
:55:20. > :55:23.with Labour. You have mixed messages. That's the problem with
:55:24. > :55:27.Labour. You in the fourth row? I want to go back to Ming's comment
:55:28. > :55:31.that he made, that the huge swell of members that joined the Labour Party
:55:32. > :55:35.after Jeremy Corbyn came in, I for one joined the Labour Party after
:55:36. > :55:39.Jeremy Corbyn and having had the previous coup in the Labour Party,
:55:40. > :55:46.he once again won for the leadership of the Labour Party and I think that
:55:47. > :55:48.it's really easy to talk about the sort of fractions in the Labour
:55:49. > :55:51.Party and use them against the Labour Party. I think there's quite
:55:52. > :55:56.a lot of good things that are going on in the Labour Party. OK, the
:55:57. > :56:01.woman on the gangway there? I don't particularly want to be a member or
:56:02. > :56:05.support a party that has a singular direction that I have to adhere to.
:56:06. > :56:09.I feel that I'm quite a complex being that I have a number of
:56:10. > :56:13.different opinions on a number of different things and I want to
:56:14. > :56:17.belong to a party that is going to represent all of these diversities,
:56:18. > :56:20.all of these diversities that so many of our wonderful nation
:56:21. > :56:31.comprises. So for me that doesn't seem like a weakness in the Labour
:56:32. > :56:41.Party. Thank you. I'm told we have time for one quick question from
:56:42. > :56:45.Nino Ssive lvestre. Has Sir Phillip Green done enough to redeem himself
:56:46. > :56:51.or should we take away his Knighthood? Yes or no answers? I'm
:56:52. > :56:54.not... Yes or no? It's a double headed question. I'm not interested
:56:55. > :56:59.in his Knighthood. I'm interested in the fact that he's done the proper
:57:00. > :57:02.thing by those who were beneficiaries of the pension scheme
:57:03. > :57:07.who would have otherwise been... Sorry, we are really running out of
:57:08. > :57:16.time. Jamie, yes or no? No, he may have done it but in the words of one
:57:17. > :57:22.BHS employer, it was at the very least the least he could have done.
:57:23. > :57:27.Better late than never. Should he keep the Knighthood which Parliament
:57:28. > :57:31.voted he shouldn't? It's a matter for the independent committee. And
:57:32. > :57:35.your opinion? It's a matter for the independent committee. I'm a
:57:36. > :57:41.government minister, it would be completely wrong for me to comment.
:57:42. > :57:49.Dawn Butler? I understand he's ?200 million short. Knighthood if he
:57:50. > :57:56.gives another ?200 million? I'll reconsider it if he come makes up
:57:57. > :58:00.the deficit. 88% is not enough. As for the Knighthood, who wants one
:58:01. > :58:07.anyway, I don't think even Nigel Farage wants one. I think he does
:58:08. > :58:10.actually! That was the other question we had, whether Nigel
:58:11. > :58:16.Farage should get a Knighthood or not. Ask Douglas Carswell? He was
:58:17. > :58:19.here last week and we were told he'd stopped him getting a Knighthood. I
:58:20. > :58:27.don't know whether it's true or not. Our time is up. We must go. We are
:58:28. > :58:30.in Sunderland next Thursday and we have the Shadow Chancellor John
:58:31. > :58:34.McDonnell among our panelists there, and the week after that We are in
:58:35. > :58:41.Bognor Regis. On the screen is the address you can go to if you want to
:58:42. > :58:46.come to Bognor Regis or Sunderland. There is the website address and the
:58:47. > :58:51.telephone number. The debate on Five Live goes on until 1am on Question
:58:52. > :58:56.Time extra time. My thanks to the panel and all of you who came to
:58:57. > :59:25.take part. Until next Thursday, from Question Time, good night.
:59:26. > :59:27.Good morning, this is BBC Breakfast. Morning, Dan.
:59:28. > :59:31.In the sports news, we have the latest on the Welsh rugby team,
:59:32. > :59:34.Poppy's sports day, and news on Andy Murray.
:59:35. > :59:38.The headlines coming up, but our next guest is really quite special.
:59:39. > :59:42.Jack, the toast's burning. Welcome, Daniel Radcliffe.