:00:52. > :01:00.The Culture Secretary, Karen Bradley.
:01:01. > :01:02.The Shadow Chancellor, John McDonnell.
:01:03. > :01:04.Kezia Dugdale, leader of the Scottish Labour Party.
:01:05. > :01:06.The SNP's International Trade spokesperson, Tasmina Ahmed-Sheikh.
:01:07. > :01:07.The Guardian columnist, Polly Toynbee.
:01:08. > :01:11.And the editor of The Spectator, Fraser Nelson.
:01:12. > :01:23.We are very grateful for Kezia Dugdale filling in for John who
:01:24. > :01:28.missed his flight. Let us have the first question tonight which comes
:01:29. > :01:31.from Graham McElderry, please. Is breaking the manifesto pledge
:01:32. > :01:38.justified when it's done in the name of science? Of silence? Fairness.
:01:39. > :01:43.Right. Is breaking a manifesto pledge justified when it's done in
:01:44. > :01:47.the name of fairness? Obviously referring to the self-employed and
:01:48. > :01:52.the increase that was allegedly not in the manifesto. Karen Bradley, is
:01:53. > :01:57.it justified to break a manifesto pledge? The first thing I would say
:01:58. > :02:01.is that the manifesto pledge was enacted in legislation in the tax
:02:02. > :02:05.lock, a piece of legislation that the Government passed in the summer
:02:06. > :02:11.of 2015. In that, we were very clear that it was the headline rate of
:02:12. > :02:14.national insurance paid by 85% of people in the country employed class
:02:15. > :02:21.1 national insurance which is at 12%. What was announced yesterday in
:02:22. > :02:24.the budget was measures to make or address the unfairness that there
:02:25. > :02:29.may be between the 85% of employed people and the 15% of self-employed
:02:30. > :02:34.people who pay lower national insurance. Even with those changes,
:02:35. > :02:39.that rate of national insurance will still not be as high as the rate
:02:40. > :02:43.paid by the employed. This funny line in your manifesto, we'll not
:02:44. > :02:48.raise VAT, national insurance contributions or income tax, should
:02:49. > :02:52.not have been read to mean we will not raise VAT, national insurance
:02:53. > :02:57.contributions... We were clear this was the rate of class one national
:02:58. > :03:02.insurance. Fraser Nelson's a Tory supporter and is shaking his head.
:03:03. > :03:06.The first page. I've got it here, the Conservative manifesto and I
:03:07. > :03:11.don't know if you can point us to the bit where it says class 1? We
:03:12. > :03:15.had a debate in Parliament. Questions were raised. This was the
:03:16. > :03:17.contract you guys made and you have broken it. It was agreed.
:03:18. > :03:27.APPLAUSE. .
:03:28. > :03:33.David Cameron tweeted that message out. That was the promise. This is
:03:34. > :03:38.the pledge. And right now, people are wondering, do Tory promises and
:03:39. > :03:41.tax mean anything. You are dodging the question, Fraser, because the
:03:42. > :03:45.question Graham asked is, is breaking a pledge justified when
:03:46. > :03:48.done in the name of fairness? He said silence, which is exactly what
:03:49. > :03:52.we have been getting over the pledge. Now, there are some signs
:03:53. > :03:56.that right now, for example, I would quite like the Conservatives to
:03:57. > :03:59.break their pledge on the pension credible lock, it's too expensive.
:04:00. > :04:04.You can go back and say, we made this promise but we are sorry, we'll
:04:05. > :04:07.have to change it. You need to be honest and level with the country
:04:08. > :04:11.about what you are doing and why. What we are getting now is, and
:04:12. > :04:16.Philip Hammond is sneaking it into a budget, and pretending he isn't some
:04:17. > :04:20.kind of Bill Clinton-style Jesuitical language that he hasn't
:04:21. > :04:24.broken his pledge when it was there in black-and-white. It's more than
:04:25. > :04:28.about bad economics, it's about hon city and politics and whether
:04:29. > :04:34.politicians should be believed. Polly Toynbee? I think the problem
:04:35. > :04:41.was, this was a ridiculous pledge to make in the first place and I hope
:04:42. > :04:43.that no party will go into another election ever locking themselves
:04:44. > :04:48.into things they can't be sure they are going to keep. It may be
:04:49. > :04:52.necessary to raise taxes. After all, when this manifesto was written, we
:04:53. > :04:55.didn't have Brexit, all sorts of things have happened. Who knows what
:04:56. > :04:58.may happen in the next few years related to the world economy or
:04:59. > :05:01.anything else. I don't think politicians should ever tie their
:05:02. > :05:04.hands particularly on tax. The reason it was done by George Osborne
:05:05. > :05:09.and David Cameron was to try to stick it to Labour by saying, look,
:05:10. > :05:12.we've got this pledge, now you'll have to follow that, knowing that
:05:13. > :05:17.Labour probably didn't want to spend more. I think that was a very, very
:05:18. > :05:22.bad reason for doing it. For good economic reasons. The Institute for
:05:23. > :05:27.Fiscal Studies has said so, lots of other experts have said, don't do
:05:28. > :05:33.this. Leave yourself some leeway. If you do break a promise, then be
:05:34. > :05:36.honest and apologise. I mean, this Jesuitical stuff about, well was it
:05:37. > :05:41.this clause or that clause, absolute nonsense. Who would be a minister,
:05:42. > :05:48.it's a hard job, you've got to beat the script and I feel very sorry for
:05:49. > :05:51.you. You'll have to repeat it, but how much easier it would have been
:05:52. > :05:55.for you to say, sorry, I got that wrong, it is a bad thing to break a
:05:56. > :06:06.pledge but it's even worse to make an economic mistake. We'll come back
:06:07. > :06:11.to you, Karen. You, Sir? Self-employed are paying less
:06:12. > :06:14.national insurance. What about the multi-millionaires not paying their
:06:15. > :06:20.tax? Please APPLAUSE.
:06:21. > :06:25.And you, Sir? Regardless of the fairness of it, it's another U-turn
:06:26. > :06:29.and I was reading yesterday that there was other Tories saying,
:06:30. > :06:33.quick, let's make a U-turn from this to get past this so we don't have
:06:34. > :06:38.another U-turn and this is the reason we have such a disconnect in
:06:39. > :06:43.the country between people and politicians, we cannot trust what
:06:44. > :06:46.people are saying because there are pledges and they get changed. People
:06:47. > :06:51.get sick of it. APPLAUSE.
:06:52. > :06:55.The woman there? Do you see a difference in this manifesto pledge
:06:56. > :06:59.break to the one of the increase in student fees? Why is it different
:07:00. > :07:05.and why is there less uproar. From the Lib Dems you mean? Yes.
:07:06. > :07:09.APPLAUSE. Tasmina act head Sheikh? Thank you.
:07:10. > :07:16.I think manifesto pledges are important because when a party are
:07:17. > :07:19.presents themselves to be elected to Government, all parties should stand
:07:20. > :07:23.and people should be able to rely on that. I agree with Polly, it would
:07:24. > :07:27.have been better to come clean and say we have made a mistake and
:07:28. > :07:32.changed our mind, rather than pretending that's not what they
:07:33. > :07:34.meant in the first place. To follow on the point about self-employed
:07:35. > :07:38.people and to have a level playing field. Self-employed people don't
:07:39. > :07:41.have access to parental leave benefits and holiday pay and other
:07:42. > :07:44.things and they're already finding it very difficult to keep their
:07:45. > :07:48.businesses going and indeed employ other people. If we are talking
:07:49. > :07:51.about fairness, I wonder why the Chancellor, if he wants to have a
:07:52. > :07:56.level playing field, why he didn't hear the voices of the WASPI women
:07:57. > :07:59.campaigning right outside the House of Commons chamber who wanted
:08:00. > :08:04.pension changes. APPLAUSE.
:08:05. > :08:07.Kezia Dugdale? It's very interesting, Tasmina's answer
:08:08. > :08:10.because of course in Scotland the SNP have promised to scrap the
:08:11. > :08:18.council tax the last ten years, won two elections on it and failed to do
:08:19. > :08:21.it. I wish colleagues would take their pledges as seriously as you
:08:22. > :08:25.do. This is a question that was fundamentally about fairness. I
:08:26. > :08:29.agree that what the Government were trying to say, self-employed people
:08:30. > :08:32.pay less tax than people who work for the Government because they
:08:33. > :08:36.don't get the same rights, so if you are going to increase the tax level,
:08:37. > :08:39.you should increase their rights as well, give them paternity leave and
:08:40. > :08:44.sick leave. The important point is, what is happening here, is that the
:08:45. > :08:48.Tories are forcing low-income and middle-income people in this country
:08:49. > :08:52.to pay the price of Brexit. There is a simple bit of maths we can do. The
:08:53. > :08:55.tax increase on businesses will generate ?2 billion of additional
:08:56. > :08:59.revenue to spend on schools and hospitals. At the same time, the
:09:00. > :09:04.Tories are going to spend ?70 billion by the end of this
:09:05. > :09:07.Parliament giving tax cuts for the richest most well-off people in this
:09:08. > :09:10.country. That's unfair and that's what we must challenge every step of
:09:11. > :09:15.the way. APPLAUSE.
:09:16. > :09:20.The man in the checked shirt in the second row? I think the problem here
:09:21. > :09:23.is, and what we are learning, is that manifestos aren't really worth
:09:24. > :09:27.the paper they're written on these days.
:09:28. > :09:33.APPLAUSE. So if we go back to 2010 and the
:09:34. > :09:37.debacle over the tuition fees and now this, and then what was alluded
:09:38. > :09:43.to before with the SNP wanting to scrap council tax, was it? Yes Then
:09:44. > :09:46.how could we possibly believe any political party and what they say in
:09:47. > :09:48.a manifesto, should a manifesto come with small print attached?
:09:49. > :09:55.APPLAUSE. OK. You, Sir?
:09:56. > :10:00.2015 feels like a decade ago. I feel like people are making a big deal
:10:01. > :10:04.out of nothing. I'm not really bothered, give them some wriggle
:10:05. > :10:07.room. So you think it's a trivial matter really? It seems like a
:10:08. > :10:12.farce, I'm not really bothered. So you are a friend of Karen Bradley? I
:10:13. > :10:18.wouldn't say that, no. Briefly Karen, do you want to answer? You
:10:19. > :10:21.have been told by Polly that it should never have been there in the
:10:22. > :10:26.first place? . There are many, many points I could make. There are, but
:10:27. > :10:30.do you think it's right - the point is, is it right for a Chancellor's
:10:31. > :10:33.hands to be tied on an issue like national insurance and tax in a
:10:34. > :10:37.manifesto because there is a thing, it was put in at the last moment,
:10:38. > :10:42.they couldn't think of anything to say, stick it in, isn't that right?
:10:43. > :10:45.The Tories never thought they would win a majority, they thought, it
:10:46. > :10:49.doesn't matter what is in the manifesto, we'll go into a
:10:50. > :10:56.coalition. Like the referendum indeed. Unfortunately they ended up
:10:57. > :11:00.winning power. Theresa May can say, I didn't write
:11:01. > :11:15.this manifesto. There is a case to be made for doing this. It was
:11:16. > :11:21.tweeted about. Briefly from you? Karen Bradley said it was made
:11:22. > :11:26.perfectly clear that the promise applied to 85%. Can you tell us how
:11:27. > :11:30.it was made clear? Well, when we legislated for the tax lock, we
:11:31. > :11:36.legislated that we would not increase the rate of national
:11:37. > :11:40.insurance that's paid by 85% of employed people, class 1 national
:11:41. > :11:43.insurance, 12%. I wanted to pick up on Fraser's point that he said, we
:11:44. > :11:48.sneaked this out. This wasn't sneaked out, it was a budget where
:11:49. > :11:52.the Chancellor stood up and said, we know we need to pay for skills,
:11:53. > :11:58.schools and social care, these are things we need the pay for. We don't
:11:59. > :12:03.want to burden our children with this. It was very open about that.
:12:04. > :12:06.There were tax cuts for the richest people in society. Why force that
:12:07. > :12:11.extra pressure on to low-income people. The point about the changes
:12:12. > :12:16.is that actually, you have to have taxable profits at over ?32,000
:12:17. > :12:20.before you'll be paying more tax. It's ?16,000. No, no, the overall
:12:21. > :12:24.picture, you have to look at the budget in the whole. It's over
:12:25. > :12:27.?32,000 so actually we are protecting the lower and middle
:12:28. > :12:31.incomes. People in Sunderland who're working for themselves are people
:12:32. > :12:33.who're going to be paying the tax. Not the people who work in the City
:12:34. > :12:42.of London. APPLAUSE.
:12:43. > :12:46.Jean Hellens? Is the extra ?2 billion funding over the next three
:12:47. > :12:53.years for social care too little too late?
:12:54. > :12:59.APPLAUSE. Polly Toynbee? Social care crisis is
:13:00. > :13:03.quite appalling and the way it's tipping over into the NHS filling up
:13:04. > :13:06.A departments, unable to get people into beds because other
:13:07. > :13:12.people are stuck in beds because there are no social care places for
:13:13. > :13:17.them and no care packages at home, the ?2 billion is over three years.
:13:18. > :13:21.What the King's Fund says, who're the main auditors of this, they say
:13:22. > :13:26.we need ?2 billion a year. What this might do is just about hold it as it
:13:27. > :13:29.is, but as it is, between half a million and a million old people,
:13:30. > :13:33.frail people, are not getting the care they would have had five years
:13:34. > :13:37.ago. The crisis is in people's front
:13:38. > :13:41.rooms, behind closed doors where people can't see it, people not
:13:42. > :13:46.getting care who really need it, as well as the crisis that we can see
:13:47. > :13:51.in the NHS and for there to be no money for the NHS is extraordinary.
:13:52. > :13:57.We have been through six years where never before since the NHS was
:13:58. > :14:04.founded in 1948 has it ever had such a low settlement. No wonder it's
:14:05. > :14:07.bursting at if seems -- the seems. The wonder is how the incredible
:14:08. > :14:10.people in the NHS all the way through have just about kept it on
:14:11. > :14:14.the road. But it's not going to last and may not last until the end of
:14:15. > :14:19.this year without us seeing many more people waiting on trolleys,
:14:20. > :14:25.some who've already been dying in hospital corridors. I think this
:14:26. > :14:29.Government is extraordinary that in this budget, ?9 billion were taken
:14:30. > :14:32.off corporation tax for corporations and just think what that money would
:14:33. > :14:32.have done for the NHS and social care.
:14:33. > :14:45.APPLAUSE. Fraser Nelson. Because the economy
:14:46. > :14:49.is going a lot better than people thought this time last year, there
:14:50. > :14:54.is ?2 billion more to give to help solve the care crisis, but that is a
:14:55. > :14:57.sticking plaster, only therefore three years. We will have a huge
:14:58. > :15:02.problem though one has come up with a solution for. The Government has
:15:03. > :15:06.said it is thinking radically about this and it has to because nothing
:15:07. > :15:12.seems to be working right now. My hunch is that what you will have to
:15:13. > :15:15.do is look carefully. For example, the Government has said nobody
:15:16. > :15:19.should have to sell their homes to pay for their care, but you do get
:15:20. > :15:23.some people who get care who basically could borrow against the
:15:24. > :15:27.value of their house. You get people who have greater assets that are not
:15:28. > :15:32.counted when it comes to what they qualify for. For example, in the
:15:33. > :15:37.NHS, I do not see that I should get a free GP appointment if I can
:15:38. > :15:45.afford to pay for it, nor subsidised medicine. So you would have a means
:15:46. > :15:48.tested NHS? More than right now. The NHS' needs are huge and the
:15:49. > :15:54.Government's ability to fund it is running out. Those who can afford to
:15:55. > :15:58.pay more should be asked to and would be happy to. I don't see why
:15:59. > :16:07.people like me are funded by the NHS, when we can afford to pay ?10
:16:08. > :16:13.for the NHS. The end of a free at point of use NHS is the end of the
:16:14. > :16:19.principal. Karen Bradley, Fraser just said nothing is working right
:16:20. > :16:23.just now. Do you agree? I am not sure I agree on paying for services
:16:24. > :16:28.on the NHS, which is free at the point of need and the point of
:16:29. > :16:32.delivery and will remain so. Just to pick up, why do you object to what
:16:33. > :16:38.he says, that rich people could help the NHS by paying? I agree with
:16:39. > :16:42.Polly that it would be the end of the NHS because that would be a
:16:43. > :16:47.fundamental change to the way the NHS works, which I want to protect.
:16:48. > :16:51.On social care, some areas get this right but 50% of all discharges from
:16:52. > :16:57.hospital are down to 24 local authority areas. So we know there
:16:58. > :17:01.are places this is working, places this is right, but there are places
:17:02. > :17:04.where it is not. The Chancellor has announced ?1 billion up front so
:17:05. > :17:08.that care packages can be put in place and we can make sure we get
:17:09. > :17:12.this right so we do not have a crisis next winter. Also over the
:17:13. > :17:16.summer we will look at what we need to do, fundamental reform, so we can
:17:17. > :17:21.look at where this is working and replicate that in those places it
:17:22. > :17:27.simply isn't. In the second row from the back. Why has the Government
:17:28. > :17:29.decided to stop nursing bursaries? Who is going to deliver this social
:17:30. > :17:33.care? APPLAUSE
:17:34. > :17:42.Do you want to take that point? We want to professionalise nursing
:17:43. > :17:47.and have it with the same degree courses as other students. But it is
:17:48. > :17:51.very, very important to make sure we get social care right. Police said
:17:52. > :17:59.there was no money for the NHS. There was. There was money for GP
:18:00. > :18:02.triage at A, and there was money for the sustainability and
:18:03. > :18:08.transformation plans, so we can get those right, too. Well, it's not
:18:09. > :18:14.enough money. Last weekend we saw over 200,000 people marching to save
:18:15. > :18:19.our NHS in England, because the system is in disarray. Fraser speaks
:18:20. > :18:22.about a lack of money. It is about priorities. The Government has money
:18:23. > :18:27.to spend and it is up to them to decide what is most important of
:18:28. > :18:30.them. I believe a National Health Service, social care packages are
:18:31. > :18:36.part of the social contract that government has with its people. You
:18:37. > :18:41.are all paying into it, we are all paying into it, so we need it and it
:18:42. > :18:45.should be there. Today we have the A times which have been released,
:18:46. > :18:49.which show massive problems in the NHS, and the NHS needs to be saved
:18:50. > :18:54.but that does not seem to be a priority. In terms of the Budget,
:18:55. > :19:00.how are people feeling about this Budget? If you are in receipt of
:19:01. > :19:05.benefits, if you are having ?30 cut each week, do you feel better off
:19:06. > :19:09.after this Government's decisions? A Budget and Chancellor that does not
:19:10. > :19:14.mention Brexit when this is what it is all about? We know that the
:19:15. > :19:20.Chancellor is amassing what has been called a war chest of money to
:19:21. > :19:23.protect from the impact of Brexit. What the Chancellor should be doing
:19:24. > :19:27.is spending on the people of this country in need, who need that
:19:28. > :19:30.support now. That is his responsibility, and he is letting
:19:31. > :19:34.the country down. APPLAUSE
:19:35. > :19:41.You, sir, in the fourth row. Until we take politics out of the
:19:42. > :19:43.National Health Service, we will never find an answer.
:19:44. > :19:50.APPLAUSE We need some fresh ideas.
:19:51. > :19:54.I totally agree that at some point, somewhere, we will have to start
:19:55. > :19:58.paying for the service we get. It is a fantastic service but we need to
:19:59. > :20:04.be real and take the politics out of it and get it sorted out. What do
:20:05. > :20:08.you mean exactly, that politicians can't solve it? It is like tennis,
:20:09. > :20:11.from one side of the court to the other. We need to take the politics
:20:12. > :20:17.out and have a proper, grown-up talk.
:20:18. > :20:21.The ?2 billion for social care is less than they spend treating
:20:22. > :20:26.illnesses caused by obesity. Because people are too reliant on the NHS,
:20:27. > :20:32.does that add unnecessary stress to an already overcrowded service?
:20:33. > :20:35.Kezia Dugdale. That last point is about preventative spending, what
:20:36. > :20:41.can we do to reduce demand on the NHS. To answer the original
:20:42. > :20:45.question, ?2 billion is welcome but not nearly enough. Over the last
:20:46. > :20:49.parliament, the Tories cut 4.6 billion out of social care. They are
:20:50. > :20:58.putting back in half of what they took out previously. The fundamental
:20:59. > :21:02.tragedy about this is how short term it is in its thinking. We are
:21:03. > :21:06.talking about the money that we spend helping largely elderly people
:21:07. > :21:09.living in their own homes safely for as long as they possibly can, to
:21:10. > :21:14.keep them out of hospital. When we get a bit scrimping with this cash
:21:15. > :21:19.and do not put enough in, we are putting more pressure on the NHS. It
:21:20. > :21:25.means an elderly person is more likely to get ill, to sit in A and
:21:26. > :21:28.wards for weeks on end. Investing is actually saving our NHS money and
:21:29. > :21:39.that is what is so wrong with the Tory attack on social care. Karen, I
:21:40. > :21:44.work in the NHS, I look after old people, have done for 20 years.
:21:45. > :21:47.Everyday I the effects of your government's cuts on the service
:21:48. > :21:53.that we so desperately wants to deliver for our older persons.
:21:54. > :21:56.Hospitals should be able to admit older persons straight and welcome
:21:57. > :22:05.them, not have them waiting for 14 hours on trolleys like your
:22:06. > :22:12.government does. When it's time for them to be discharged from hospital,
:22:13. > :22:18.we should be able to do that safely. Your government doesn't get it.
:22:19. > :22:19.Elderly people, care of the elderly need more resources.
:22:20. > :22:28.APPLAUSE I don't think anybody in the
:22:29. > :22:32.government has said we don't need to address this problem.
:22:33. > :22:36.That's why the money was put in in the Budget. We do need to make sure
:22:37. > :22:41.we get this right but it's not just about money. When we know that 50%
:22:42. > :22:45.of delayed discharges are down to 24 local authority areas, we know there
:22:46. > :22:49.are places getting this right. We need to learn from them and get it
:22:50. > :22:53.right across the board. Because I agree with you and I want this for
:22:54. > :22:57.my constituents, too, that when they leave hospital... First, frail and
:22:58. > :23:03.elderly can go into hospital and be admitted quickly and appropriately.
:23:04. > :23:07.That is why GP triage at A will make such a difference. But also
:23:08. > :23:10.that there are care packages and places for them, because nobody
:23:11. > :23:17.wants to be in hospital longer than they have to be. Which of these
:23:18. > :23:22.councils are you referring to? 24 councils are responsible for 50% of
:23:23. > :23:25.delayed discharges. And yet councils have all had their budgets cut by
:23:26. > :23:29.40% on average. APPLAUSE
:23:30. > :23:35.Some councils, we are seeing this working, for example in Salford.
:23:36. > :23:38.It is working because health and social are working together. We know
:23:39. > :23:44.it can be done and we can get it right. The situation is very
:23:45. > :23:47.different in different parts of the country, different in terms of the
:23:48. > :23:51.consideration of the NHS and in terms of the councils. It is not
:23:52. > :23:56.just a question of some councils are wonderful. 40% cuts to councils,
:23:57. > :24:06.another 20% cuts to councils in this Budget. And today, figures revealed
:24:07. > :24:09.devastating delays in April waiting for cancer care, the longest delays
:24:10. > :24:13.for most people since the targets were first put there. I would like
:24:14. > :24:19.to take up that point, why can't we take politics out of the NHS? The
:24:20. > :24:23.thing is, the NHS is at the heart of politics. There are a lot of
:24:24. > :24:26.Conservatives, maybe not Karen, but maybe Fraser, there are a lot who
:24:27. > :24:32.really don't believe in it, who think people should pay for
:24:33. > :24:36.themselves. Because we want to reform it? Reform always means
:24:37. > :24:40.privatisation, insurance systems, going the American way. So it is
:24:41. > :24:45.political and we have to fight for it very hard to keep it as it is, as
:24:46. > :24:49.it was founded. And we know, because when Labour was in power they did
:24:50. > :24:53.manage to get the funding right up to the level about equal to
:24:54. > :24:57.comparable countries in Europe, the results absolutely soared and
:24:58. > :25:02.waiting lists dropped. APPLAUSE
:25:03. > :25:07.Nathan Cinnamond, if you would stand by for your question.
:25:08. > :25:11.We're in Bognor Regis next week, the week after we'll be in Bangor.
:25:12. > :25:14.And for a Special Question Time on Brexit we'll be in Birmingham
:25:15. > :25:17.on Monday 27th March where our audience will be able
:25:18. > :25:19.to put their questions about what Brexit might mean
:25:20. > :25:21.for Britain to some of the leading politicians
:25:22. > :25:33.That's from 8.30 to 10pm on Monday March 27th.
:25:34. > :25:36.Come and join our audience for any of those programmes.
:25:37. > :25:55.Nathan Cinnamond, your question. Should a snap election be called to
:25:56. > :25:59.give the Government a Brexit date? What William Hague was calling for
:26:00. > :26:05.this week, to give the Government a mandate for Brexit. Kezia Dugdale.
:26:06. > :26:08.No. My reason for thinking that is that Brexit has caused a tremendous
:26:09. > :26:16.amount of instability and insecurity across the country. As I speak to
:26:17. > :26:18.people and businesses, what they want is a period of peace and calm,
:26:19. > :26:22.time to understand what is happening, to digestive and move on
:26:23. > :26:26.from there. If we had a general election now it would, dare I say
:26:27. > :26:30.it, bring out the worst in politics and politicians, back to manifesto
:26:31. > :26:34.drafting, not doing what was in the interests of the country. How do you
:26:35. > :26:42.think Labour would fare? Brilliantly. Is that why you are a
:26:43. > :26:47.bit off the idea? I wonder why you would think that, David. Honestly, I
:26:48. > :26:51.have gone through a Scottish parliament election and a Scottish
:26:52. > :26:56.general election in recent times and a referendum, too, so I do not fear
:26:57. > :27:00.elections. I have experienced them, and experienced bad results. That is
:27:01. > :27:05.not my motivation for being opposed. I think it is bad for the country,
:27:06. > :27:08.and I will do what I think is in the interests of working people and that
:27:09. > :27:14.is why I don't think it is time for a general election. Are you in
:27:15. > :27:17.favour of an election? Yes, I am a Labour supporter and the reason I
:27:18. > :27:18.want a general election is because it would get rid of Jeremy Corbyn.
:27:19. > :27:26.APPLAUSE Who would you have instead?
:27:27. > :27:30.There are several leading... Chuka Umunna. I would love to see him as
:27:31. > :27:33.leader of the Labour Party. There are people out there that can offer
:27:34. > :27:40.credible opposition to the Conservative government, which it
:27:41. > :27:45.needs at the moment. Almost anyone. Yes, perhaps. Polly Toynbee. I find
:27:46. > :27:49.it extraordinary that Theresa May would not be very tempted, because
:27:50. > :27:56.if she had an election now, she would absolutely wipe the floor and
:27:57. > :28:00.get a stonking great majority. Labour is sadly 16 points behind.
:28:01. > :28:09.Worse than that, the underlying figures, a poll today, shows that
:28:10. > :28:14.John McDonnell and Jeremy Corbyn are 31 points behind on who do you most
:28:15. > :28:18.trust on the economy. As this Budget comes out, which is profoundly
:28:19. > :28:23.unfair to ordinary working families, who Theresa May is supposed to be
:28:24. > :28:26.supporting, despite the injustice of the Budget, despite the fact that
:28:27. > :28:31.there are lots of alternative ways of doing it better, even so, Corbyn
:28:32. > :28:35.and McDonnell, and I am sorry he is not here today because I intended to
:28:36. > :28:39.direct it at him, not at Kezia Dugdale, who did not support Corbyn
:28:40. > :28:43.in the last election, I think it is a tragedy. I think Labour has to
:28:44. > :28:47.come to its senses. When you look at the prospect of what would happen if
:28:48. > :28:51.there was an election now, you might get rid of Corbyn, but you would get
:28:52. > :28:57.rid of 100 Labour MPs, good people, at the same time. I agree it is a
:28:58. > :29:02.pity he is not here, but what is it that you have against Jeremy Corbyn
:29:03. > :29:05.and John McDonnell? Well, you know, he won with a great success in the
:29:06. > :29:09.beginning and a tremendous coterie of people who flocked to Labour, who
:29:10. > :29:15.were not really Labour people, and you thought, let's see if he can
:29:16. > :29:18.work his magic? Can it work? Can you affect a wider part of the
:29:19. > :29:27.population, enough voters to rally to his flag? He has had plenty of
:29:28. > :29:32.time to try, and after Copeland, after a by-election, a ward
:29:33. > :29:38.by-election here, lost to the Liberal Democrats... Are you taunted
:29:39. > :29:44.by your old SDP party and a revival of that? No, been there, done it and
:29:45. > :29:46.it didn't work. What do you make of William Hague and Andrew Lansley
:29:47. > :29:51.also said there should be an election? You can see why the Tories
:29:52. > :29:54.find it attractive because never have they been more confident of
:29:55. > :29:58.winning a general election. The polls suggest they would get a
:29:59. > :30:02.majority of over 100. It is difficult to think of the Labour
:30:03. > :30:05.Party getting any weaker, although Jeremy Corbyn always astonishes in
:30:06. > :30:11.his ability to make it worse. Theresa May said she wouldn't do it,
:30:12. > :30:15.and we know she keeps her promises. She says rightly that we need
:30:16. > :30:20.stability. She does not really need a bigger majority because right
:30:21. > :30:24.now... Hang on a second, the point William Hague is getting at is that
:30:25. > :30:28.she wasn't, I know we don't elect prime ministers, but she never had
:30:29. > :30:30.an election with her name as Prime Minister, and she has Brexit
:30:31. > :30:36.negotiations to conduct which will be tough. Those are his grounds, to
:30:37. > :30:46.give her a mandate to go to other countries and say, I have the conch.
:30:47. > :30:52.Her authority in Parliament is strong. Everybody knows she could
:30:53. > :30:55.put to the sword quite a few Labour MPs and Labour TSB had enough
:30:56. > :31:00.misery. It would be unfair to inflict more on it. The one thing
:31:01. > :31:04.that makes me change my mind on this, if the Tories are going to
:31:05. > :31:07.think we are not bound by the last manifesto, they are honour bound to
:31:08. > :31:11.get a new mandate. They are not going to be too happy about things
:31:12. > :31:14.in the document, so really under the system you need to be bound by a
:31:15. > :31:20.manifesto. If you don't want to be, you need to ask for a new mandate.
:31:21. > :31:24.Even even over the issue in the budget? If she thinks the last
:31:25. > :31:28.manifesto is rendered null and void by Brexit and her leadership and
:31:29. > :31:31.there's a fair argument for that, that doesn't make the case for get
:31:32. > :31:38.ago fresh mandate. Nathan what do you think? Are you in favour of an
:31:39. > :31:41.election? Political circumstances change and it's not the ideal
:31:42. > :31:45.situation but I think the Conservative Party did say, we will
:31:46. > :31:48.have a referendum, presumably with the intention of delivering on it
:31:49. > :31:52.soiful like we should continue as we are, let Jeremy Corbyn sap the soul
:31:53. > :31:55.out of the Labour Party and let those who believe in the will of the
:31:56. > :32:00.people continue. APPLAUSE.
:32:01. > :32:03.You on the gangway? In regards to the general election, I don't
:32:04. > :32:07.believe it should happen because the last thing we need is to split up
:32:08. > :32:13.the country again when we are going through a Brexit. We need to ensure
:32:14. > :32:17.that we are showing a united front for all of Europe and all of the
:32:18. > :32:21.rest of the world. Secondly in regards to Jeremy Corbyn, it's not
:32:22. > :32:25.such Jeremy but it was the ideas that he brought forward, he went
:32:26. > :32:30.back to the original reasons that the Labour Party was actually
:32:31. > :32:34.created to ensure that the working class people had a voice and that's
:32:35. > :32:36.what people went back for and voted for. It wasn't the man, it was the
:32:37. > :32:42.ideas. APPLAUSE.
:32:43. > :32:45.So you believe he should stay there and fight his corner whenever the
:32:46. > :32:49.election comes? I don't think we should have an election yet. Whether
:32:50. > :32:54.it's the time that he's there at that point, but we do need to change
:32:55. > :32:57.how Labour is working because the middle of the road doesn't work any
:32:58. > :33:11.more. OK. And you, Sir? You on the
:33:12. > :33:19.gangway? About Brexit, I can't understand when in 1973 when it was,
:33:20. > :33:25.we only voted for Common Market for trade. You look at it at the end of
:33:26. > :33:29.the day, why did the British people not get a vote on the other six
:33:30. > :33:33.treaties that was passed? Well they've had it now haven't they, the
:33:34. > :33:36.vote, and they're leaving, so it's all done and dusted.
:33:37. > :33:41.APPLAUSE. Let's go back to the election.
:33:42. > :33:45.Tasmina? I fail to see what the point of a snap election would be,
:33:46. > :33:51.apart from just to demonstrate the further arrogance of the Tory party,
:33:52. > :33:53.because I find it distasteful when the Chancellor at the despatch box
:33:54. > :33:57.talked about the last Labour Government as if there was never
:33:58. > :34:01.going to be another Labour Government ever in Consigning the
:34:02. > :34:05.Labour Party to history which of course isn't good for democracy. But
:34:06. > :34:09.clearly, those that want a snap election would want to install even
:34:10. > :34:14.more Tory MPs at Westminster and that's not good for the whole of the
:34:15. > :34:18.country. I think what the most disturbing thing out of all of this
:34:19. > :34:22.is, is that the Labour Party have allowed themselves to get into a
:34:23. > :34:26.position where the Conservative Party know they can do what they
:34:27. > :34:30.want now and conceivably for the next five years in advance of
:34:31. > :34:34.another election because there's no prospect of the Labour Party winning
:34:35. > :34:38.that election. That's not good in times right now when there needs to
:34:39. > :34:41.be a really strong and united opposition to stand up to the cuts
:34:42. > :34:46.that are coming from this Government and also to stand up in terms of the
:34:47. > :34:50.Brexit deal. Now, whilst I understand that the people of
:34:51. > :34:53.Sunderland voted to leave the European Union, the terms upon which
:34:54. > :34:58.you leave and ensuring that your jobs and your industries are
:34:59. > :35:00.protected once you leave should be of paramount importance to the
:35:01. > :35:06.Government. But what it appears to me to be the case, is that having a
:35:07. > :35:11.snap election or increasing the number of Tory MPs, is because, as
:35:12. > :35:14.is always the case, the Conservatives want to ride rough
:35:15. > :35:18.shot over everybody and get everything their own way without
:35:19. > :35:23.having to seek further recourse to the opposition. That's why those
:35:24. > :35:27.Brexiteers in the Tory party wanted Brexit in the first place because
:35:28. > :35:31.they didn't want anyone to have any involvement in all of their
:35:32. > :35:34.decisions. You say it's arrogant to want to win an election? It's
:35:35. > :35:44.arrogant to suggest there wouldn't be another Labour Government. He
:35:45. > :35:48.said at the despatch box, the last Labour Government. On the topic of
:35:49. > :35:57.should there be another snap election, there shouldn't be. There
:35:58. > :36:00.is work to be done on building a stronger country, and delivering the
:36:01. > :36:05.vote that the British people had last year and so decisively voted to
:36:06. > :36:09.leave the European Union. What about getting a mandate to negotiate in
:36:10. > :36:12.the way that Theresa May wants to negotiate because we don't know what
:36:13. > :36:17.she wants to do. We have that mandate. The people said they want
:36:18. > :36:20.to leave the European Union. But how to leave is another question. The
:36:21. > :36:24.British people said they want to leave the European Union. They
:36:25. > :36:28.didn't define how, and if there was a general election, she could
:36:29. > :36:32.explain how she wanted the relationship with the rest of the
:36:33. > :36:36.world to be. There is a process of negotiation and we have to get the
:36:37. > :36:40.best and right deal for Britain. But I think on elections and referendum,
:36:41. > :36:43.I think to be honest with you, we've all probably had enough of them and
:36:44. > :36:49.I could do with a little bit of time to get on with the job. No more
:36:50. > :36:53.elections. You, Sir? The fourth row? Just to the original question,
:36:54. > :36:57.surely the vote on the 23rd June was enough of a mandate that the people
:36:58. > :37:05.of the UK wanted to leave the European Union. But what if it
:37:06. > :37:10.doesn't come out the way, I mean you presumably have a view about how you
:37:11. > :37:13.wanted to come out, if it doesn't come out the way you want? The way
:37:14. > :37:16.that we want it, it's gone through the House of Commons where they've
:37:17. > :37:22.got the debate, they're trying to say there's going to be a vote after
:37:23. > :37:28.the negotiations, so that surely is enough for the elected members of
:37:29. > :37:32.Parliament. You, Sir, on the left? Just going back to the point on the
:37:33. > :37:37.Labour Party, as weak as the Labour Party is today, they also lost a lot
:37:38. > :37:41.of votes and a lot of seats during the back end of Tony Blair's reign,
:37:42. > :37:45.during the Brown years, the Miliband years. During the Miliband years, I
:37:46. > :37:49.remember leading up to the last general election, one of the pledges
:37:50. > :37:52.that they put out to try and inspire voters like me to try and
:37:53. > :37:56.differentiate themselves from the Tory party was, we are not going to
:37:57. > :38:01.keep university fees at ?9,000, instead we are going to lower them
:38:02. > :38:06.to ?6,000. That to me summed up the Labour Party at the time, they were
:38:07. > :38:10.an, I can't believe it's Tory, Tory light. We do need an opposition but
:38:11. > :38:13.we need an opposition that is different, OK, we need choices in
:38:14. > :38:23.the political spectrum in this country. You agree with the woman on
:38:24. > :38:27.the gangway? Absolutely. Even if not enough people are choosing it, what
:38:28. > :38:30.do you say? Tony Blair disillusioned a lot of people from politics, a lot
:38:31. > :38:37.of long time Labour voters. APPLAUSE.
:38:38. > :38:42.OK. A brief point from you, Sir, then another question? I think that
:38:43. > :38:48.the problem Jeremy Corbyn's got is, he's got to unite staunch remainers
:38:49. > :38:52.mainly down south and staunch levers, Brexiteers in the north and
:38:53. > :39:00.I just don't think any leader is capable of doing it for Labour.
:39:01. > :39:04.We have got a question, I'm tempted to come to this question in a
:39:05. > :39:15.moment. I think we might come to this question. Debra?
:39:16. > :39:23.Should Scotland be given a second referendum?
:39:24. > :39:29.Tasmina you start this because it's tied up with Brexit? After the
:39:30. > :39:33.referendum vote, it's clear, Sunderland, the votes to leave are
:39:34. > :39:36.the same but in the opposite direction in terms of how Scotland
:39:37. > :39:40.voted to remain. The First Minister was were scleer that she wanted to
:39:41. > :39:44.discuss and agree with Theresa May as far as possible a solution that
:39:45. > :39:47.would make sure that the views and aspirations of the people of
:39:48. > :39:52.Scotland were also taken into account. So she presented a plan.
:39:53. > :39:56.Scotland's place in Europe to the Prime Minister. That included three
:39:57. > :39:59.points, first one being, could we all stay part of the single market
:40:00. > :40:04.because we think that's best for the whole of the UK. Helpfully, Fraser's
:40:05. > :40:09.brought the manifesto here which says yes to the single market. It's
:40:10. > :40:12.all in there in terms of what the Conservative Party were elected on.
:40:13. > :40:14.The second point and, as we all know, the Prime Minister's ruled
:40:15. > :40:18.that out, I don't think that was a particularly wise thing to do before
:40:19. > :40:23.going to the negotiating table at Brussels. The second point in the
:40:24. > :40:31.First Minister's plan was for there to be a differentiated agreement for
:40:32. > :40:34.Scotland much like you're hoping and anticipating that a differentiated
:40:35. > :40:36.agreement would be in place for Sunderland and your car
:40:37. > :40:40.manufacturers here also. We are waiting for the Prime Minister to
:40:41. > :40:43.confirm whether or not she's going to find such an arrangement
:40:44. > :40:47.acceptable, an arrangement which has the support of the Scottish
:40:48. > :40:50.Parliament. So hang on a second. You are not asking, as I thought your
:40:51. > :41:01.leader was, for a referendum next autumn? I'm just getting to the
:41:02. > :41:05.third point, David. Thank you. The third point is if the Prime Minister
:41:06. > :41:08.doesn't agree, the First Minister has a mandate to call another
:41:09. > :41:12.independence referendum because her manifesto detailed that if we were
:41:13. > :41:19.to be taken out of the EU against our will, that should be the case.
:41:20. > :41:22.The people of Scotland voted in their numbers, 62-38 to remain in
:41:23. > :41:25.the European Union and the Scottish Parliament also gave her a mandate
:41:26. > :41:28.to negotiate the best deal for Scotland. Polly Toynbee, do you
:41:29. > :41:31.think there should be a second referendum and do you think there
:41:32. > :41:33.will be one, more to the point. We were talking about a general
:41:34. > :41:36.election not being necessary? I think the Scots should be able to
:41:37. > :41:43.have referendums whenever they want them. Any old time? Why not? Until
:41:44. > :41:48.one side wins? Or until the SNP wins? Thai got their own Parliament.
:41:49. > :41:51.If the Scottish people feel they are having too many referendums, they'll
:41:52. > :41:55.start saying no. I think what is very depressing is the extent to
:41:56. > :42:00.which Theresa May has done so little to woo the Scots to keep them in the
:42:01. > :42:06.union. This is the Conservative and Unionist Party. She went the other
:42:07. > :42:09.day, it was very odd and said to them, it's senseless for you to want
:42:10. > :42:15.to leave your biggest market. You thought hang on a minute, she's just
:42:16. > :42:18.taking us out of her biggest market, out of the biggest single market.
:42:19. > :42:22.She doesn't have very good arguments. On the other hand, the
:42:23. > :42:25.Scots are saying, we want to stay in the EU, a good market, you know, and
:42:26. > :42:31.yet they're wrenching themselves away from us. All of this disunity
:42:32. > :42:35.is a terrible disaster for all of us. I desperately want Scotland to
:42:36. > :42:39.stay in the union and want Britain to stay as close to Europe as
:42:40. > :42:44.possible in the single market which is in your manifesto and in the
:42:45. > :42:48.customs union. Otherwise I fear disaster and for places like
:42:49. > :42:53.Sunderland, more than anywhere, more than the south, which is curby, it's
:42:54. > :42:59.here that we'll be hurt most if we go right out. There are many points.
:43:00. > :43:03.The gentleman up there said as if there was on the one kind of out,
:43:04. > :43:07.there are many. I think we should have a question on the deal she gets
:43:08. > :43:14.at the end as to whether we all agree with it.
:43:15. > :43:19.APPLAUSE. The woman there. In relation to the
:43:20. > :43:22.original question. Absolutely not should Scotland have another
:43:23. > :43:26.referendum. We opted as a United Kingdom to vote to leave or to stay
:43:27. > :43:30.with the European Union, so therefore we should all just deal
:43:31. > :43:34.with... No, Tasmina, you spoke at great length and I've got to crack
:43:35. > :43:39.the whip so we get fourthth further down the line. Fraser Nelson? There
:43:40. > :43:46.was appetite in Scotland for a referendum. Three in four Scots
:43:47. > :43:54.don't want it, something like that. Nicola Sturgeon does sign to be in a
:43:55. > :44:01.hurry, she saying 2018 -- does seem to be in a hurry. You would think
:44:02. > :44:08.you wanted to wait until at least we left the EU. The Prime Minister
:44:09. > :44:13.wants... Tasmina. We had a compromised document. We had that on
:44:14. > :44:23.agreed terms. You've had your stay, you've spoken at some length.
:44:24. > :44:30.I'mancing Fraser's point -- I'm answering Fraser's point. I suspect
:44:31. > :44:35.Nicola Sturgeon is in a hurry because her own rating is tanking
:44:36. > :44:38.her approval rating which is going down, she knows she might not get
:44:39. > :44:42.control of the next Scottish Parliament so she's only got a small
:44:43. > :44:46.window to play havoc with the union once again. Kezia Dugdale, as leader
:44:47. > :44:50.of the Labour Party in Scotland, would you welcome one? The question
:44:51. > :44:53.was should Scotland be given one. The question should be, does
:44:54. > :45:00.Scotland want one and Fraser's right. The country is divided
:45:01. > :45:05.enough, we do not want to be divided again. And can I say to you very
:45:06. > :45:10.clearly, I spent two-and-a-half years of my life campaigning for a
:45:11. > :45:15.no-vote and it was an active referendum, the talk of the pubs, on
:45:16. > :45:18.the buses, all the time for two-and-a-half year, 85% voted no,
:45:19. > :45:21.and I understand there are some people now who're angry at Brexit,
:45:22. > :45:25.angry at the Tories and think it's time to go again, but the harsh
:45:26. > :45:29.reality is this, the economic case for independence is weaker now than
:45:30. > :45:33.it was a few years ago and what the SNP are arguing for is false hope.
:45:34. > :45:38.They're saying to the poorest people in this country that it can be
:45:39. > :45:43.different. They'll be faced with a ?15 billion deficit if we were
:45:44. > :45:45.independent meaning less money for education and NHS, that's why I
:45:46. > :45:55.always oppose independence. APPLAUSE.
:45:56. > :46:02.As a member of the Conservative and unionist party, I want Scotland to
:46:03. > :46:08.remain part of the UK. Even though I will be at the England- Scotland
:46:09. > :46:14.Calcutta rugby match, I still want Scotland to be a very important part
:46:15. > :46:18.of the union. And I just think, in the same way that I respect the
:46:19. > :46:23.decision the British people made on June the 23rd, I respect the
:46:24. > :46:28.decision that Scottish people made to stay in the union. If Parliament
:46:29. > :46:32.asked for a referendum, would you think they should be given a second
:46:33. > :46:39.referendum? The people of Scotland do not want that. If the Scottish
:46:40. > :46:43.Parliament said they want a referendum, as suggested, do you
:46:44. > :46:47.think the British government should stand in the way? We should do what
:46:48. > :46:54.is right for Scotland and the UK. Let's get it clear... Your party, at
:46:55. > :46:57.the point when we are taking power back from Brussels and giving them
:46:58. > :47:04.to Westminster and Edinburgh, you want to... No, wait, let's not get
:47:05. > :47:08.into that argument. You just said you think if the Scottish Parliament
:47:09. > :47:11.asked for a referendum, the Westminster Parliament, under
:47:12. > :47:16.Theresa May, should deny them that right. The people of Scotland do not
:47:17. > :47:20.want another referendum and I respect that decision. This will
:47:21. > :47:26.rumble on. A question about education from David Russell. Why
:47:27. > :47:31.are so many politicians, mostly but not exclusively from the left, so
:47:32. > :47:35.violently opposed to grammar schools? Are you violently opposed
:47:36. > :47:46.to grammar schools? I am all for them. Fraser Nelson. I am going to
:47:47. > :47:51.let you down here, I am afraid, I am not a fan of grammar schools either.
:47:52. > :47:56.I am against academic selection. We have done some incredible things
:47:57. > :48:06.with education in England. Wider you think you are letting me down? The
:48:07. > :48:11.thing is that grammar schools, for a while they did really good at
:48:12. > :48:14.getting people from poorer backgrounds, bright people, into
:48:15. > :48:17.places they would otherwise not be. But now we have far better tools
:48:18. > :48:24.than that. We have academies, free schools. So many more devices to get
:48:25. > :48:28.people from all abilities and to put the resource into educating kids
:48:29. > :48:31.from all abilities. If you allow new schools to take the smartest kids,
:48:32. > :48:36.that's probably what they will do. They should not have that option. We
:48:37. > :48:41.should have all community schools. We are seeing new schools like Moss
:48:42. > :48:44.born Academy, once one of the worst schools in England, which is now one
:48:45. > :48:48.of the best performing in England. The Conservatives should build on
:48:49. > :48:52.their success, rather than go back to grammar schools, which I think is
:48:53. > :48:54.a bit of a trap. APPLAUSE
:48:55. > :49:00.The Chancellor said they were raising money for 148 new free
:49:01. > :49:04.schools, which would be free to select pupils based on academic
:49:05. > :49:07.ability, which is a grammar school, in effect.
:49:08. > :49:11.I think the point is that previously it has been against the law for
:49:12. > :49:16.selective schools to expand to open new free schools. I think we should
:49:17. > :49:19.have the maximum amount of choice in our education system. There is
:49:20. > :49:23.nothing wrong with wanting the best for our children and the most
:49:24. > :49:28.appropriate school place for them. That means some selective schools,
:49:29. > :49:30.but also faith schools, specialist mathematics schools, schools that
:49:31. > :49:35.specialise in the things that are right for our young people. Grammar
:49:36. > :49:39.schools is the question, not faith schools. The funding announced
:49:40. > :49:44.yesterday is for all schools, and we should have that choice. There is
:49:45. > :49:48.nothing wrong in my view in wanting to make sure that every child has
:49:49. > :49:56.the chance to have the best school place they possibly can. How can the
:49:57. > :50:00.government justify spending 320 million on new free schools, new
:50:01. > :50:06.grammar schools, when currently state schools are really struggling
:50:07. > :50:07.to make ends meet? Surely you are just papering over the cracks.
:50:08. > :50:15.APPLAUSE And you.
:50:16. > :50:19.Surely we should not be taking an elitist approach to this and should
:50:20. > :50:22.be funding schools on the whole, investing in children who don't have
:50:23. > :50:27.the opportunity to get to a grammar school. Do you think these 140 new
:50:28. > :50:32.schools will all turn into grammar schools, selective schools? We can't
:50:33. > :50:41.predict the future, but it's very likely. In Scotland, we do not have
:50:42. > :50:48.grammar schools, free schools or academies and we look at you in
:50:49. > :50:54.England and think you are a bit odd. White whose system works best? I am
:50:55. > :51:01.well up for debating that. Why are Scottish standards of education
:51:02. > :51:08.falling? That is the SNP's fault. Really! I could tell you why that is
:51:09. > :51:12.at great length, or I could just tell you the SNP have cut ?1.5
:51:13. > :51:16.billion from local services in five years, and if you do that local
:51:17. > :51:21.councils, schools will suffer as a consequence. Let's stick with the
:51:22. > :51:25.idea of grammar schools. The reason I am so opposed to grammar schools
:51:26. > :51:29.is that I can't stomach the fact that you might right of someone's
:51:30. > :51:37.life chances at the age of 11, or indeed the age of 14. -- you might
:51:38. > :51:43.write them off. Do you mind being a Standard Bearer? Like Kezia, I am
:51:44. > :51:49.Scottish so we never went through the grammar school thing. However,
:51:50. > :51:56.if you failed your 11 plus, you had years and years to catch up and move
:51:57. > :52:02.forward. I had a guy in my Scottish Highers class, who started in the
:52:03. > :52:08.medial and worked his way year. He was only able to do that because he
:52:09. > :52:11.was selected according to his ability. You are in favour of
:52:12. > :52:17.selection as it goes along. Absolutely. Karen talks about
:52:18. > :52:22.choice, but whose choice? The trouble with these 140 new schools
:52:23. > :52:25.is that it is the schools who will be choosing, not the parents
:52:26. > :52:30.choosing the schools. That seems the wrong way round. If you have a lot
:52:31. > :52:34.of selective schools, and a lot of faith schools are pretty selective,
:52:35. > :52:37.if you have a lot of selective schools and a lot of them
:52:38. > :52:40.increasingly under the Conservative government have become undercover
:52:41. > :52:45.selective schools, it means the schools next door becoming de facto
:52:46. > :52:50.secondary modern. Very few people choose the secondary modern. You
:52:51. > :52:54.might choose a compensate. So the mud -- the notion of choice seems
:52:55. > :53:00.wrong. And the question of money, exactly as you were saying, is that
:53:01. > :53:04.1 billion has been put into capital for schools but nearly all of it is
:53:05. > :53:07.going to this handful of hand-picked new free schools, and very little to
:53:08. > :53:08.schools that desperately need capital funding.
:53:09. > :53:18.APPLAUSE The woman in green.
:53:19. > :53:21.I am a school governor, and if the Government's position really is to
:53:22. > :53:25.give every child the best opportunity in education, why are we
:53:26. > :53:29.seeing such drastic cuts that are going to mean redundancies and
:53:30. > :53:37.bigger classes? It does not stack up. It doesn't. You have not spoken
:53:38. > :53:44.on this. Are you going to remove my gag for this question, David? I
:53:45. > :53:51.never tried to gag you. It is more than I could manage. Is that an
:53:52. > :53:56.invitation to speak. But not too long. Education is always a work in
:53:57. > :54:00.progress. Always we have to continue to work to improve our standards.
:54:01. > :54:04.Karen mentioned grammar schools gave every child a chance. They don't.
:54:05. > :54:08.They give a chance to those children whose parents can afford the tuition
:54:09. > :54:13.for the exams to get into those schools in the first place. I have
:54:14. > :54:16.to pick up on Kezia's point about the Scottish education system. Of
:54:17. > :54:21.course there is work to be done, we can agree on that. But we have
:54:22. > :54:27.record levels of attainment in Scotland. Not true. 93.3% of young
:54:28. > :54:31.people are going into education, training or employment when they
:54:32. > :54:35.leave school, and that is fantastic. 55% of young people are going to
:54:36. > :54:41.university, where we have free tuition. The rich and poor gap is
:54:42. > :54:47.absolutely disgraceful. There is work to be done on improving... You
:54:48. > :54:54.are less likely to get into university if you are poor and
:54:55. > :54:57.Scottish. The work is being done but we should not take away from the
:54:58. > :55:02.success of the education system, nor the fact that you give every child a
:55:03. > :55:07.chance by giving them access to free education, the pinnacle of Scottish
:55:08. > :55:12.education. We are in Sunderland, so let's go back to Sunderland and take
:55:13. > :55:16.a question from you, sir. I am all for grammar schools and it sounds
:55:17. > :55:19.like it is the left that is trying to bring everyone down while the
:55:20. > :55:24.government is trying to give everyone an opportunity to go to
:55:25. > :55:31.where they need to go. The left does not like school choice. They don't
:55:32. > :55:36.like toys in the NHS as well. Last question from Linda Wood. Should MPs
:55:37. > :55:45.be allowed to do paid work outside of Parliament? I suspect that was
:55:46. > :55:50.provoked by the news that the former Chancellor is getting ?650,000 a
:55:51. > :55:54.year, is that right, as an adviser to Blackrock, on top of his salary.
:55:55. > :55:59.Should that be allowed? Polly Toynbee, you first. No, and I think
:56:00. > :56:05.it has pretty much done in any chance he has for the future. That
:56:06. > :56:09.will be held against him. It is a huge political blunder. He says he
:56:10. > :56:14.is only doing four days a month. I would not have anybody investing in
:56:15. > :56:17.Blackrock if that is their idea of value for money. If you look at what
:56:18. > :56:22.he did to the economy, to the country, when he was in control
:56:23. > :56:24.himself, who would pay him that amount of money to advise anybody's
:56:25. > :56:31.company? APPLAUSE
:56:32. > :56:37.Karen Bradley, briefly, if you would.
:56:38. > :56:40.We should have people from all backgrounds and experiences in
:56:41. > :56:43.Parliament, and if that means they are earning additional money, as
:56:44. > :56:47.long as it is declared and the voters know about it, it is down to
:56:48. > :56:53.them and their voters at the election, as to whether the voters
:56:54. > :56:58.support them. And 650 grand, that is his affair. If it is declared and
:56:59. > :57:07.clear and open, we want people from all backgrounds. He is doing what?
:57:08. > :57:17.He is taking one day off work, isn't he? Kezia. I represent Edinburgh and
:57:18. > :57:21.the Lothians in the Scottish Parliament, 450,000 people I am
:57:22. > :57:26.supposed to give voice to. That is a full-time job. The Labour Party in
:57:27. > :57:29.Scotland is clearly opposed to second jobs, so much so that we are
:57:30. > :57:34.about to legislate against it. APPLAUSE
:57:35. > :57:43.Tasmina, are you in favour of legislation against second jobs?
:57:44. > :57:47.Our MP work is our primary job and I don't know how you could do your job
:57:48. > :57:54.properly if it was not a full-time job. Fraser Nelson. It is good to
:57:55. > :57:57.let politicians get out of it, but he is being paid as much as a
:57:58. > :58:02.premiership footballer. If he was one, that would be all right. Maybe
:58:03. > :58:08.you should cap it, you can't more than double your salary.
:58:09. > :58:18.And a reminder, we'll be in Birmingham for
:58:19. > :58:21.a Special Question Time on Monday March 27th,
:58:22. > :58:23.between 8.30 and 10pm, looking at Brexit when our audience
:58:24. > :58:26.will be able to put their questions on what Britain after Brexit might
:58:27. > :58:29.look like to some of the politicians at the heart of the process.
:58:30. > :58:32.To come and take part in our audience in Bognor Regis,
:58:33. > :58:34.Bangor or Birmingham go to our website, or
:58:35. > :58:39.If you are listening tonight on Radio 5 live, the debate goes
:58:40. > :58:58.Thanks to our panellists, particularly to Kezia, who nobly
:58:59. > :59:02.drove down from Edinburgh. We are grateful to you, and to all of you
:59:03. > :59:33.who came to Sunderland to take part. Until next Thursday, good night.
:59:34. > :59:36.The 24-year-old man has been charged with murder.
:59:37. > :59:39.You made sure an innocent man is charged!
:59:40. > :59:42.What gives you the right to say that he's innocent?