:00:00. > :00:18.We're in the Skyline Pavilion at Butlins,
:00:19. > :00:26.Conservative MP Jacob Rees-Mogg.
:00:27. > :00:29.The Labour MP, who last year resigned from the Shadow Cabinet
:00:30. > :00:31.to briefly challenge Jeremy Corbyn for the leadership of
:00:32. > :00:39.Joanna Cherry, who speaks for the SNP on Justice and Home Affairs.
:00:40. > :00:42.The Times and Spectator columnist, Matthew Parris.
:00:43. > :00:57.And the chairman of Wetherspoon, the pub chain, Tim Martin.
:00:58. > :01:14.You can join the debate on Facebook, Twitter or text 83981.
:01:15. > :01:23.If you push the red button, you can see the text going across the bottom
:01:24. > :01:29.of the screen. Our first question from Florence Holland-Norris,
:01:30. > :01:34.please. Theresa May said now is not the time for a Scottish independence
:01:35. > :01:39.referendum. When is the time? Theresa May is said now is not the
:01:40. > :01:46.time. When is the time, Jacob Rees-Mogg? I strongly believe the
:01:47. > :01:48.people of Scotland have the right, as all nations do, to
:01:49. > :01:53.self-determination. That they, if they want to be a separate country,
:01:54. > :01:58.have a right to do that. I am sure the people of Scotland could be a
:01:59. > :02:03.successful nation as they were before 1707. However, now is not the
:02:04. > :02:07.time because we are in the midst of the Brexit negotiations, which are
:02:08. > :02:10.about to begin, and there is a two-year period those will go on
:02:11. > :02:17.for, and Scotland would not know what it was leaving to until those
:02:18. > :02:21.are completed. Secondly, there was a referendum in 2014 which the
:02:22. > :02:24.Scottish National Party said would be for a generation. I assume that
:02:25. > :02:28.generations in Scotland are much the same as in England and three years
:02:29. > :02:37.is a pretty short generation. APPLAUSE
:02:38. > :02:43.Florence's question was, when is the time?
:02:44. > :02:47.I am happy to accept the generational aspect of the call by
:02:48. > :02:53.the Scottish National Party. That is perfectly reasonable. I do not think
:02:54. > :02:59.you can bind future generations. So 20 years? This is a political
:03:00. > :03:03.discussion. That is why we are having it! It is that, rather than
:03:04. > :03:08.being dressed up as a matter of great principle. It is a political
:03:09. > :03:11.discussion between Mrs Sturgeon who is a highly capable politician, who
:03:12. > :03:14.is trying to pick the moment when she thinks she will have the
:03:15. > :03:17.greatest chance of winning, which is completely understandable. She
:03:18. > :03:21.thinks with the uncertainty there may be in the midst of the Brexit
:03:22. > :03:25.negotiations, that will be the opportunity. From the point of view
:03:26. > :03:29.of Mrs May, it is the counter to that, that this is an unfair choice
:03:30. > :03:32.to offer to the people of Scotland at a point when they do not know
:03:33. > :03:37.whether they might get a very good deal within a Brexit situation. But
:03:38. > :03:43.what is going to happen to fishing and farming rights, that may well,
:03:44. > :03:47.if the current devolution system remains, go to Scotland? Under the
:03:48. > :03:49.current acts of Parliament, anything not reserved to Westminster goes to
:03:50. > :03:56.Edinburgh. That has not been settled, whether the things at
:03:57. > :04:01.brussels comeback. One final thing. It has always struck me as very awed
:04:02. > :04:04.that people who want independence from Westminster want immediately to
:04:05. > :04:08.come under the yoke of Brussels, and they have become the Brussels
:04:09. > :04:09.National party, rather than the Scottish National Party.
:04:10. > :04:18.APPLAUSE Joanna Cherry, Theresa May has said
:04:19. > :04:23.that now is not the time. We heard are saying that today. When
:04:24. > :04:28.is the time? I am going to agree with Theresa May that now is not the
:04:29. > :04:31.time. If she had listened to what the First Minister said on Monday,
:04:32. > :04:35.she announced that she intends to hold a referendum in 18 months'
:04:36. > :04:40.time, approximately, because we know, of course, because Michel
:04:41. > :04:45.Barnier has told us and David Davis that within 18 months of triggering
:04:46. > :04:49.Article 50, an agreement will have to be reached, so there will be a
:04:50. > :04:52.six-month window of opportunity for the European Parliament and other
:04:53. > :04:59.parliaments to vote on whatever deal is reached. It is true we had an
:05:00. > :05:02.independence referendum in September 2000 and four. But the point is that
:05:03. > :05:09.circumstances have changed completely since then. -- 2014. Back
:05:10. > :05:14.then, we were told the way to guarantee citizenship in the EU was
:05:15. > :05:18.to vote to remain part of the UK. I realise that this part of England,
:05:19. > :05:24.and England and Wales as a whole, voted to leave the European Union,
:05:25. > :05:28.and I respect that. But Scotland voted to remain part of the European
:05:29. > :05:31.Union, and we currently face being taken out of the EU against our
:05:32. > :05:34.will. If there is one thing we learned this week it is that it is
:05:35. > :05:40.generally a good idea to keep your manifesto promises. And Nicola
:05:41. > :05:45.Sturgeon made a manifesto promise to the Scottish people in the Scottish
:05:46. > :05:48.general election last year, that the Scottish Parliament would hold
:05:49. > :05:52.another referendum if there was a material change in circumstances,
:05:53. > :05:55.such as Scotland being taken out of the European Union against its will.
:05:56. > :06:01.That material change of circumstances has occurred. On the
:06:02. > :06:05.back of that manifesto, Nicola Sturgeon 146.5% of the vote in
:06:06. > :06:13.Scotland, the highest share of vote for a government across the UK since
:06:14. > :06:18.1966. -- 46.5%. Even Labour in 97 did not get that much. So Nicola
:06:19. > :06:22.Sturgeon has a mandate on the back of a manifesto commitment to hold
:06:23. > :06:26.this referendum. Would you agree it is sensible to wait until the Brexit
:06:27. > :06:30.negotiations are finished, so the people of Scotland can see what is
:06:31. > :06:34.on offer before they have a second referendum on whether to remain in
:06:35. > :06:39.the UK or not? You will not be surprised that I agree with what the
:06:40. > :06:44.First Minister said. Do you think Brexit should be finished? The
:06:45. > :06:50.Scottish people need to make an informed choice. Wait until after
:06:51. > :06:53.the negotiation? 18 months after Article 50 has been triggered, as we
:06:54. > :06:57.were told by the chief negotiator for the European Union and
:06:58. > :07:01.importantly by David Davies, who told us this yesterday at the Brexit
:07:02. > :07:04.select committee on which I sit, that he agrees with Michel Barnier
:07:05. > :07:09.that an agreement will have to be reached within 18 months of Article
:07:10. > :07:13.50 being triggered. The reason is there is a two-year period and you
:07:14. > :07:16.need a six-month window for the European Parliament and other member
:07:17. > :07:20.states to ratify the agreement. So when I think it should be, I think
:07:21. > :07:25.it should be after that degree of certainty has been reached, when we
:07:26. > :07:27.see the deal that has been negotiated, and when other European
:07:28. > :07:31.Union countries are getting a chance to say whether they like the deal or
:07:32. > :07:35.not, Scotland should get a chance to say whether Scotland wants to take
:07:36. > :07:41.that deal or be an independent country. Thank you. The man there.
:07:42. > :07:45.You said that Nicola Sturgeon said that if there had been a material
:07:46. > :07:51.change in circumstances they would hold a second referendum, that being
:07:52. > :07:57.being dragged out of the EU. But if I am not mistaken, if you leave the
:07:58. > :08:01.UK, Scotland are not automatically in the EU, so you would be coming
:08:02. > :08:05.out anyway if you leave the UK, so that is contradictory to what she is
:08:06. > :08:09.saying is the justification for having a new referendum. Don't
:08:10. > :08:16.answer for a moment, we will come back to it. The woman in the third
:08:17. > :08:21.row. When you say that the Scottish people voted on the independence
:08:22. > :08:25.referendum in 2014, that they thought they were voting to stay in
:08:26. > :08:30.the EU, they already knew we were going to have a referendum on the
:08:31. > :08:32.UK's membership of the EU, and they voted to remain as part of the UK.
:08:33. > :08:43.APPLAUSE Forgive me, I will come to you but I
:08:44. > :08:47.don't want the whole debate to be dominated by your position.
:08:48. > :08:52.I would like a chance to answer. If you remember them, we can come back
:08:53. > :08:56.to them. Angela Eagle. I think we are divided enough at the moment and
:08:57. > :08:57.this is an opportunistic thing that Nicola Sturgeon has done.
:08:58. > :09:07.APPLAUSE I think the politics of grievance
:09:08. > :09:13.are not going to help us come together and try to make the best
:09:14. > :09:17.deal in the Brexit negotiations for all of the countries of the United
:09:18. > :09:21.Kingdom, and all of the regions of the United Kingdom, to.
:09:22. > :09:31.I think it's important as well to recognise that we need to work
:09:32. > :09:38.together in these crucial next two years, and to launch this second
:09:39. > :09:44.lead after only three years, to have an independence referendum, I think
:09:45. > :09:50.is mischievous, to say the least. APPLAUSE
:09:51. > :09:55.What do you expect Nicola Sturgeon to do?
:09:56. > :09:59.She says there is no contact between her and Theresa May, she is not
:10:00. > :10:05.being included in these things. What do you expect to do, sit it out and
:10:06. > :10:09.wait while negotiations go on? I think Theresa May needs to be more
:10:10. > :10:11.inclusive in the way she conducts Brexit negotiations, both with
:10:12. > :10:18.Parliament, which she initially tried to exclude, and also with
:10:19. > :10:23.Wales and Scotland. And I would like to see a special committee of the
:10:24. > :10:27.regions setup, socially could involve them, too. I think she would
:10:28. > :10:31.have a much more powerful and stronger argument to do a better
:10:32. > :10:39.deal if she was much more inclusive. I think when you think about it as a
:10:40. > :10:43.social Democrat, we want solidarity and working together. We don't want,
:10:44. > :10:49.and don't think that our country's future is best made by dividing us
:10:50. > :10:53.up and separating off one piece from another. Are you in favour of Jeremy
:10:54. > :10:59.Corbyn said he was in favour of, which was that he was fine with a
:11:00. > :11:03.second referendum? The Labour Party's position, and Jeremy has
:11:04. > :11:08.clarified this, is that we are against a second referendum. The MSP
:11:09. > :11:14.is in Scotland, Labour MSP is, will be voting against during the debate
:11:15. > :11:18.at Holyrood next week. We think that the SNP should get on with doing the
:11:19. > :11:22.day job and actually governed Scotland in the interests of
:11:23. > :11:27.everybody. We are doing that, Angela, we are doing that. As well,
:11:28. > :11:30.I don't understand why the SNP want to stay in the single market in
:11:31. > :11:36.Europe, which many of us wanted to stay in, but think it is OK, in
:11:37. > :11:44.order to achieve that, to leave the even bigger single market which is
:11:45. > :11:49.the UK. We want to stay in both. Do you know if the Scottish people have
:11:50. > :11:56.the appetite for a second referendum so soon? What is your view? I don't
:11:57. > :12:00.think they should. Matthew Parris. I don't think Nicola Sturgeon actually
:12:01. > :12:05.wants a second referendum before Brexit. I think she wants to call
:12:06. > :12:09.for it before Brexit and she knows she can rely on Mrs May to refuse to
:12:10. > :12:15.have one, so it suits both of them in lots of ways. But I do think that
:12:16. > :12:19.if in a sustained way the Scottish people want a second bite at this
:12:20. > :12:22.cherry, I think they should be allowed to have it. Circumstances
:12:23. > :12:26.have changed. APPLAUSE
:12:27. > :12:34.And here I agree with Joanna Cherry. Circumstances have changed since the
:12:35. > :12:38.last referendum in Scotland. It's a completely different United Kingdom
:12:39. > :12:41.that Scotland is now in. If the Scottish people want to take another
:12:42. > :12:45.look at that after we have left, then I don't think any government
:12:46. > :12:53.should deny that to them for very long. I must say to Jacob that for
:12:54. > :12:58.those who wanted to insist that the will of the people as to whether we
:12:59. > :13:03.should stay in the European Union or not should be consulted and should
:13:04. > :13:09.prevail, then to deny that same privilege to the people of Scotland
:13:10. > :13:13.seems to me perverse. This is a question of timing. I wouldn't begin
:13:14. > :13:18.to deny the right of the Scottish people to have another referendum at
:13:19. > :13:21.some point. Jacob, when you and people in the audience were having
:13:22. > :13:26.their referendum on whether or not to stay part of the European Union,
:13:27. > :13:30.how would you have felt if Brussels said it is up to Brussels whether
:13:31. > :13:35.you have it or not, and it is up to Brussels when you have it? That is
:13:36. > :13:39.what we are being told, it is up to Westminster whether or not you can
:13:40. > :13:43.have it and when you have it. If anything is going to destroy the
:13:44. > :13:48.union between Scotland and England, then that sort of attitude is going
:13:49. > :13:58.to do it. But you want the union destroyed, don't you? Hang on. Are
:13:59. > :14:02.you in favour... I don't want to destroy it, I want to create a new
:14:03. > :14:08.partnership of equals. All right, you want to break it. I would like
:14:09. > :14:12.to answer the audience. Coming out of the EU, would Scotland still be
:14:13. > :14:15.in the European Union, we are completely in uncharted territory,
:14:16. > :14:20.but at the moment Scotland is part of a member state. No other EU
:14:21. > :14:24.member state has said it would veto an independent Scotland's
:14:25. > :14:27.membership, and the current President... The Spanish have not
:14:28. > :14:34.said that. You can check. Go home and Google. The Spanish government
:14:35. > :14:36.have not said they would veto. Some voices in Spain are concerned about
:14:37. > :14:43.Scottish independence because they think it might set a precedent for
:14:44. > :14:48.Catalonia. But Esteban Pons, a member and a leading MEP pointed out
:14:49. > :14:51.that the situation of Scotland as an independent ancient nation which
:14:52. > :14:55.voluntarily entered into a union with another nation, England, is
:14:56. > :15:00.completely different from breaking Catalonia away from the rest of
:15:01. > :15:03.Spain. I will give you plenty of time later. Tim Martin has not yet
:15:04. > :15:10.spoken and we have had court of an hour. On a practical level, it is
:15:11. > :15:14.definitely right, as everyone seems to be agreed, that there should be
:15:15. > :15:18.another referendum in future in these particular circumstances. On a
:15:19. > :15:24.practical level also, it's very unreasonable to think that while we
:15:25. > :15:29.are organising the business of getting out of the EU, organising
:15:30. > :15:34.trade deals and so on, that at the same time but before you actually
:15:35. > :15:38.leave there is a massive political issue which is a referendum. If
:15:39. > :15:43.there is going to be one should be after Brexit has occurred and you
:15:44. > :15:47.also enough time to deal with it. The second row from the back. If in
:15:48. > :15:51.the next referendum that Scotland have they voted to leave, that would
:15:52. > :15:57.be great because it is democracy in action. I don't understand why
:15:58. > :16:01.Nicola Sturgeon and the SNP are so in favour of being part of the
:16:02. > :16:02.European Union. You can't be part of the European Union and be
:16:03. > :16:20.independent. All I seem to hear from the SNP
:16:21. > :16:24.is about the English Government and the Scottish Parliament,
:16:25. > :16:27.why then have they got 50 something MPs in the United Kingdom Parliament
:16:28. > :16:30.because that's what it is. Shirley Scott, can we just
:16:31. > :16:35.have your question? Is the will of the 52% worth more
:16:36. > :16:39.than keeping a United Kingdom? In other words, is Brexit a price
:16:40. > :16:42.worth paying if it breaks I very much want to keep
:16:43. > :16:48.the United Kingdom, I think that we I think that for family ties,
:16:49. > :16:53.for historic ties, it's in England's interest that the Union remains
:16:54. > :17:01.and that it's also in I think it's important to us and,
:17:02. > :17:06.when you think of what your country is, I think my country
:17:07. > :17:08.is the United Kingdom, I would be very sad to see
:17:09. > :17:16.that destroyed and it's worth bearing in mind,
:17:17. > :17:19.that not far off 40% of people in Scotland voted to leave and that
:17:20. > :17:23.you see in opinion polls that quite a lot of people who voted
:17:24. > :17:27.to leave do not want, even if they supported independence
:17:28. > :17:30.in 2014, to end up in a Scotland So things have changed a great deal
:17:31. > :17:34.because of both referendums. I'm afraid, it's a price I don't
:17:35. > :17:40.want to pay and I don't think I think we can both
:17:41. > :17:44.have a United Kingdom and leave the European Union
:17:45. > :17:46.and that is the best Joanna Cherry, do you
:17:47. > :17:49.think that's possible? What Jacob just said, we can have
:17:50. > :17:58.a United Kingdom and leave the EU? Well, the difficulty is that
:17:59. > :18:01.Theresa May has been completely intransigent at looking at any
:18:02. > :18:05.of the compromise proposals the Scottish Government have put
:18:06. > :18:10.forward in the light To answer the lady in the audience's
:18:11. > :18:15.question a moment ago, the reason why we have 59 Scottish
:18:16. > :18:18.MPs, 56 of whom are SNP, at Westminster is because Scottish
:18:19. > :18:20.Parliament's is devolved and only has powers over certain things -
:18:21. > :18:32.defence, foreign affairs, macro-economic policy,
:18:33. > :18:33.immigration are all at Westminster. So that's why we presently have
:18:34. > :18:36.Scottish MPs at Westminster. Indeed, I'm proud to represent
:18:37. > :18:38.the people of Edinburgh South But I don't think it will be
:18:39. > :18:42.possible to preserve the UK because Now, three months ago,
:18:43. > :18:46.the Scottish Government put forward a set of compromise proposals
:18:47. > :18:48.whereby Scotland would remain part of the United Kingdom,
:18:49. > :18:51.but also part of the single market and Theresa May has
:18:52. > :18:55.refused to discuss those proposals and yesterday,
:18:56. > :18:59.when I was questioning David Davis, he ridiculed me when I suggested
:19:00. > :19:03.that it would be at least courtsey for the Government in London
:19:04. > :19:05.to respond to the Government In the last independence referendum,
:19:06. > :19:12.we were told in Scotland that we are an equal partner in this
:19:13. > :19:15.union, it doesn't feel like equality when your views
:19:16. > :19:17.are completely overlooked. We were asked not to leave the UK,
:19:18. > :19:21.but to stay and lead It doesn't look like we're leading
:19:22. > :19:29.the United Kingdom when we're It's not the politics of grievance,
:19:30. > :19:35.Angela, it's the politics We're simply asking
:19:36. > :19:39.for our voice to be heard. I just want to make one
:19:40. > :19:44.further point, David, because the people in the audience
:19:45. > :19:46.are raising points. No, I have to keep stopping you,
:19:47. > :19:49.only because there are four other people on the panel and a number
:19:50. > :19:52.of people in the audience. I know you have a lot
:19:53. > :19:56.you would like to say and I can't just allow you to take the programme
:19:57. > :19:59.over with what you're saying, Very happy not to take
:20:00. > :20:02.the programme over, but I would like the opportunity
:20:03. > :20:04.to answer specific points. I'm sure the audience would
:20:05. > :20:09.like their points to be answered. It strikes me we're spending
:20:10. > :20:13.an awful lot of time talking about, should Scotland
:20:14. > :20:15.have another referendum. I agree, it's the Scottish people's
:20:16. > :20:17.rights to have that. Right now, we are getting
:20:18. > :20:20.ready to leave the EU and it's far more important,
:20:21. > :20:23.I feel, and surely you must agree, that Scotland and Wales and England
:20:24. > :20:26.all work together so that we get what we want when we leave the EU
:20:27. > :20:29.and then afterwards devote the time to Scotland and then do you then
:20:30. > :20:32.want to have a referendum? What currency are you going to use
:20:33. > :20:42.if you get your referendum What currency have you
:20:43. > :20:46.got, the groat is it, It's perhaps worthwhile reminding
:20:47. > :21:05.ourselves that viewers in Scotland are watching this programme tonight
:21:06. > :21:08.and we, perhaps, shouldn't ridicule them in the same way that I wouldn't
:21:09. > :21:10.wish to ridicule people Unlike the British Government,
:21:11. > :21:21.when we hold our next referendum in Scotland,
:21:22. > :21:24.we will have a detailed plan and we will set out plan about how
:21:25. > :21:29.we propose to secure Scotland's We will set out our plan on how
:21:30. > :21:39.we propose to secure a rosy economic future for Scotland and we will set
:21:40. > :21:42.out our plan on the currency then and we're working
:21:43. > :21:44.on that at the moment. Right.
:21:45. > :21:51.on this programme tonight, You did say you wouldn't
:21:52. > :21:54.be tied to the pound, We probably wouldn't
:21:55. > :21:59.want to be tied to the pound? No, I said the pound might be
:22:00. > :22:01.a little bit less attractive if it was plummeting after Brexit,
:22:02. > :22:05.as it is now. We do have one of the worst
:22:06. > :22:07.performing currencies But I take no pleasure
:22:08. > :22:11.in that because the pound is important to the whole
:22:12. > :22:13.of the United Kingdom. I think there were two things
:22:14. > :22:18.in the Scottish referendum which were unhelpful
:22:19. > :22:21.in the overall debate. One was that Scotland would go
:22:22. > :22:24.to hell in a handcart There are countries
:22:25. > :22:32.the size of Scotland - the Republic of Ireland,
:22:33. > :22:34.New Zealand, Singapore - similar economies which have
:22:35. > :22:40.done extremely well. But the other point that no-one
:22:41. > :22:43.grasped the nettle in respect of - if you want your own country
:22:44. > :22:52.and your own Government, you have to have your own currency,
:22:53. > :23:00.a currency and a government sides of the same coin
:23:01. > :23:04.and so I think that that is a nettle that wasn't grasped at the time
:23:05. > :23:11.by the SNP Time. We've also seen the problems
:23:12. > :23:13.in Greece, in Portugal, etc and in Europe, as a result
:23:14. > :23:16.of trying to have a European currency with no
:23:17. > :23:17.government behind it. We've had a lot of questions
:23:18. > :23:24.about the Scottish referendum, We've also had a lot
:23:25. > :23:26.of questions about Brexit itself I'd like to take this
:23:27. > :23:28.question from Sue Bringloe, please, which is looking
:23:29. > :23:30.at the Brexit negotiations. In light of David Davis's admission
:23:31. > :23:34.that no economic assessment has been carried out on the effects of a hard
:23:35. > :23:37.Brexit, should the triggering This was before the committee,
:23:38. > :23:42.Joanna Cherry, that So, since he doesn't
:23:43. > :23:48.have any idea what might happen if it doesn't work,
:23:49. > :23:51.should he delay until he has worked Well, it was an astonishing
:23:52. > :23:55.admission at the Select Committee this week, from the Secretary
:23:56. > :23:57.of State for Exiting the European Union, that he's done
:23:58. > :24:03.absolutely no analytical work on the costs of the fallback
:24:04. > :24:10.position - which is exiting the European Union without any kind
:24:11. > :24:15.of deal - that they haven't done any work to see what that would actually
:24:16. > :24:18.cost and what the implications And yet, we have a Prime Minister
:24:19. > :24:25.who's gone round the country saying - no deal is better than a bad deal,
:24:26. > :24:29.but they haven't actually It seems that David Davis comes
:24:30. > :24:35.from the Boris Johnson school Don't do any of it and hope you can
:24:36. > :24:44.bluff your way through. Then following the Budget
:24:45. > :24:48.and this screeching, embarrassing U-turn on national
:24:49. > :24:52.insurance contributions that the Chancellor has put
:24:53. > :24:55.us through this week, are we going to let these
:24:56. > :24:59.people do the Brexit negotiations which are far,
:25:00. > :25:03.far more difficult than budget, a simple Budget, with 28 things
:25:04. > :25:08.in it, and he gets that wrong. So, I'm seriously worried now
:25:09. > :25:10.about how this is going. I actually think -
:25:11. > :25:16....needed to stand up and say something then,
:25:17. > :25:19.on a Wednesday. He stands there and
:25:20. > :25:25.everyone turns off. You've got mobile phones,
:25:26. > :25:27.you've got everything. You're saying there -
:25:28. > :25:37.stand up to Theresa May. You've got your own leader,
:25:38. > :25:40.and he doesn't do anything. I know you don't like him,
:25:41. > :25:45.but you're going to Well, I don't think anyone
:25:46. > :25:50.can accuse me of not But the important thing, I think,
:25:51. > :26:01.for our Prime Minister is that she doesn't try to do this
:26:02. > :26:05.in the way she's begun by doing it. She's got to bring
:26:06. > :26:07.the nation together, She's got to take us forward
:26:08. > :26:13.and she has to do that by actually including everybody,
:26:14. > :26:15.not this high-handed - leave it to us, we don't want
:26:16. > :26:18.to talk to you about it attitude. I think, as a country,
:26:19. > :26:21.we will then have a much better I'm deeply worried about
:26:22. > :26:26.how they've started. Let me remind just you of
:26:27. > :26:40.Sue's question, Jacob. In the light of David Davis's
:26:41. > :26:42.admission no economic assessment has been carried out on the effects
:26:43. > :26:45.of a hard Brexit, should I'm so pleased that
:26:46. > :26:49.Mr Davis said this. Think back to the referendum
:26:50. > :26:51.campaign, the Bank of England, the OECD, the IMF all told us
:26:52. > :26:54.we were ruined. We were going to have a punishment
:26:55. > :26:58.Budget within days of daring to vote All these clever economists got
:26:59. > :27:02.the whole thing completely wrong. What we don't want to do is to think
:27:03. > :27:10.that we can model economically what may happen with any degree
:27:11. > :27:13.of precision in two years' time, depending on factors
:27:14. > :27:17.that are uncertain. We can't do that and it is a false
:27:18. > :27:21.position to put yourself in, What you want to do is to look
:27:22. > :27:27.at the general picture How do we trade with 60%
:27:28. > :27:30.of the world already? Would we need to apply tariffs
:27:31. > :27:36.on goods coming into this country That would be a voluntary
:27:37. > :27:41.choice for us, there So you can make an intelligent
:27:42. > :27:49.Judgment without getting in all these people who got it
:27:50. > :27:52.so hopeless wrong only a year ago and I think it's worth
:27:53. > :27:54.learning from experience. ..are you talking about accepting
:27:55. > :28:01.10% tariffs for our car industry, which would put the automotive
:28:02. > :28:05.industry at a huge disadvantage? And, between 30% and 40%
:28:06. > :28:09.tariffs which the WTO has On those two points,
:28:10. > :28:14.we've already had a bigger depreciation in the pound
:28:15. > :28:16.than in the tariff that would apply to cars
:28:17. > :28:19.and on agriculture we are only 55% So that if those tariffs
:28:20. > :28:23.were imposed on British beef, for example, and we opposed 70%
:28:24. > :28:27.tariffs, because they're 70% on beef, on Irish beef,
:28:28. > :28:30.that would be fantastic I'm not saying we should do this,
:28:31. > :28:36.but we would be in a very strong position to retaliate if vicious
:28:37. > :28:38.tariffs were imposed on us. We have a huge trade deficit
:28:39. > :28:42.with the European Union. The person in the spectacles there,
:28:43. > :28:48.in the middle, yes. Surely the panel would accept,
:28:49. > :28:54.maybe bar the two socialist, that free enterprise and unilateral
:28:55. > :28:57.free trade, as proven throughout the Victorian era and indeed
:28:58. > :28:59.with the great man Robert Peel, is extremely effective and British
:29:00. > :29:01.business and free enterprise will always overcome trade barriers
:29:02. > :29:04.put up by other countries and that specialisation
:29:05. > :29:09.is the key to success? Well, I'm afraid, I have to agree
:29:10. > :29:16.with Jacob Rees-Mogg. It is absolutely impossible to do
:29:17. > :29:19.any kind of assessment of what might happen to us if we crash out
:29:20. > :29:22.of the European Union And it breaks my heart,
:29:23. > :29:30.Jacob, that you and your friends are taking us
:29:31. > :29:33.down this road. So you think the outcome is going
:29:34. > :29:41.to be falling off the cliff? We may get a very hard Brexit,
:29:42. > :29:46.we may get a crashing out It's perfectly clear I think,
:29:47. > :29:52.to almost everybody who travels on the continent, that our European
:29:53. > :29:55.partners are not going I negotiate a lot of trading
:29:56. > :30:05.agreements over the years and the one thing, as I think some
:30:06. > :30:09.people have said here, Jacob said, is you can't guarantee the outcome
:30:10. > :30:12.in advance and there are so many variables it may not
:30:13. > :30:16.be worthwhile trying. I think our best approach
:30:17. > :30:29.with the EU is to tay - we're happy to do a free trade deal
:30:30. > :30:33.with you or we'll trade under World Trade Organisation
:30:34. > :30:35.rules, its's up to you. It's under those circumstances
:30:36. > :30:37.we'll get the best deal. If everyone says, we're desperate
:30:38. > :30:39.for a free trade deal, But if we don't impose any tariffs -
:30:40. > :30:45.at the moment the EU is not a free trading organisation,
:30:46. > :30:47.for 7% of the world it's free trade, for the other 93%
:30:48. > :30:49.there are huge tariffs. We can drop the prices that people
:30:50. > :30:54.pay in the shops, in Bognor Regis, by 7% or 8% from the end
:30:55. > :30:57.of the Brexit negotiations if just don't charge any tariffs
:30:58. > :31:19.for third party countries. The woman up there. It might sound a
:31:20. > :31:24.bit simple and it seems obvious to me that surely a lot of these
:31:25. > :31:28.conversations and decisions should have been spoken about and made
:31:29. > :31:28.before we were given the choice to vote.
:31:29. > :31:35.APPLAUSE Joanna Cherry, do you agree?
:31:36. > :31:42.I wholeheartedly agree with you, madam. Yesterday's performance by
:31:43. > :31:46.David Davies, bit for the EU select committee was quite extraordinary,
:31:47. > :31:50.and all credit to the chair of the existing EU select committee,
:31:51. > :31:56.Hillary Benn, and also -- and also, Angela's colleague, or putting David
:31:57. > :32:01.Davies on the spot. Not only did he tell us he had made no economic
:32:02. > :32:07.assessment of the effect of crashing out of the EU with no deal, but he
:32:08. > :32:15.also went on to say that yes, if we fell back and relied on WTO rules,
:32:16. > :32:19.30-40% would be slapped on British agricultural exports, 10% on car
:32:20. > :32:23.exports. He went on to say that yes, he had not really thought about it
:32:24. > :32:29.but now that it was put to him, yes, we would all lose our health
:32:30. > :32:31.insurance when travelling abroad. He also said yes, the financial
:32:32. > :32:35.services sector which is so important to London and Edinburgh,
:32:36. > :32:40.which I represent, will lose its passport in rights. He also agreed
:32:41. > :32:43.with Hillary Benn that we would fall out of the EU United States open
:32:44. > :32:48.skies agreement which would make airfares more expensive. I respect
:32:49. > :32:51.the fact that the people of England and Wales voted to leave the
:32:52. > :32:55.European Union but I am sure the people of England and Wales did not
:32:56. > :33:00.vote to make their country poorer and did not vote to make their
:33:01. > :33:05.country have less free trade. It might surprise you to hear this, as
:33:06. > :33:11.a Scottish Nationalists I'm a fan of English wine. You have some great
:33:12. > :33:16.wine in this area of West Sussex. If you crash out with no deal, 32%
:33:17. > :33:20.tariffs for export of that wine will be slapped on. These are the things
:33:21. > :33:26.that David Davis now admits to be the case but were not discussed
:33:27. > :33:31.before the referendum. Like the lady who asked the question, I am worried
:33:32. > :33:37.that we seem to be proceeding... I have two stop you again, I am sorry.
:33:38. > :33:42.Thank you. Given the incredible uncertainty with regards to leaving
:33:43. > :33:51.the European Union, does it not make sense to have a second referendum
:33:52. > :33:57.when the final deal is known. Well, secondary friend is being all the
:33:58. > :34:01.rage, why not? I certainly think, and I voted in the House of Commons
:34:02. > :34:05.for a meaningful vote at least in the House of Commons, a proper
:34:06. > :34:09.debate about the kind of deal the government come back with. I think
:34:10. > :34:13.that is right. Whether that be just a vote in the House of Commons after
:34:14. > :34:17.a debate, or a second referendum, you can make an announcement for
:34:18. > :34:21.either. Do you mean a House of Commons vote of the kind that could
:34:22. > :34:26.remove certain parts of the agreement, or one which is just take
:34:27. > :34:30.it or leave it? We wanted a meaningful vote which by definition
:34:31. > :34:34.does not mean absence choice. You have the whole agreement, or
:34:35. > :34:37.absolutely nothing. We would want there to be a vote when we could
:34:38. > :34:42.send the government back to the negotiating table. We can argue
:34:43. > :34:46.until the cows come home about whether there should be this or that
:34:47. > :34:50.vote in parliament and at what point there should be a vote. It will all
:34:51. > :34:55.depend on how public opinion approaches the emerging terms of the
:34:56. > :34:58.deal that we are going to get. And if the public turn against what
:34:59. > :35:03.looks like the kind of deal that we are going to turn against, believe
:35:04. > :35:08.me, Parliament will get a vote, Parliament will demand a vote. MPs
:35:09. > :35:13.are pretty pusillanimous people. They tend to put their fingers up to
:35:14. > :35:19.the wind and see which way public opinion is growing. Isn't that their
:35:20. > :35:22.job? It is. If public opinion is blowing against this deal there will
:35:23. > :35:26.be a vote in parliament and the government will not be able to
:35:27. > :35:40.ignore it. The people have spoken and have declared that two plus two
:35:41. > :35:44.equals five. Jacob Rees-Mogg. Matthew Parris says if public
:35:45. > :35:49.opinion starts to turn against what is negotiated, Parliament will
:35:50. > :35:52.change its mind. Do you agree? I take a completely different role for
:35:53. > :35:56.members of Parliament. We are there to stand up for what we believe in,
:35:57. > :36:01.put it to the electorate, and if they wanted, they will vote for us.
:36:02. > :36:06.I do not think it is about being a weather vane of the latest opinion
:36:07. > :36:09.poll which is probably wrong anyway. Parliament will have lots of votes
:36:10. > :36:15.but the British people voted in a referendum to leave. That decision
:36:16. > :36:19.needs to be implemented. What happens after we leave is going to
:36:20. > :36:23.be open to endless negotiation and votes, but the fundamental point is
:36:24. > :36:23.that that referendum was authoritative.
:36:24. > :36:34.APPLAUSE Doesn't this exactly show us that
:36:35. > :36:38.referendums with a yes or no decision are so difficult to bring
:36:39. > :36:44.to the general public? I think this is exactly the reason
:36:45. > :36:47.why the Scottish referendum has got to be a further generation, because
:36:48. > :36:52.I don't genuinely believe we are in a position to know the full facts.
:36:53. > :36:58.There are so many different questions and we are not being told
:36:59. > :37:06.exactly what those things are. Well, we know we are not getting ?350
:37:07. > :37:11.million a week for the NHS. As Jacob says, he prefers the net figure. We
:37:12. > :37:15.have a lot of Hamza and we have other questions. Instead of asking
:37:16. > :37:28.questions of the panel, if I could hear your opinions. The woman up
:37:29. > :37:32.there. What is your view? I just wondered if the MPs got to debate
:37:33. > :37:37.it, if they would vote with their conscience, or vote as they were
:37:38. > :37:42.told. It was your question, wasn't it? What is your view? We are
:37:43. > :37:46.stronger together. The MPs are not representing us very well. They are
:37:47. > :37:53.doing what they are told by the whips, not what they believe in. The
:37:54. > :37:59.man in red on the gangway. This is probably a moot point, as if Marine
:38:00. > :38:03.Le Pen wins in May, she has said she will come out of the euro, which is
:38:04. > :38:11.the cement of the European Union and it will come crashing down. In the
:38:12. > :38:14.front row. I think as the Americans are saying that the war is too
:38:15. > :38:19.dangerous to be left to the generals, what we heard today from
:38:20. > :38:24.Jacob is so frightening that perhaps Brexit is too dangerous to be left
:38:25. > :38:29.to the Conservatives, because it is the generation of our children and
:38:30. > :38:36.their children. It is becoming ideological and not what is going to
:38:37. > :38:42.happen in the negotiation. I'm sorry to disagree but I think it is a huge
:38:43. > :38:49.economic opportunity for us that, as Tim pointed out, the EU is free
:38:50. > :38:53.trade for 7% of the world. 93% is kept out by tariff barriers. We want
:38:54. > :38:59.to be trading with the whole world, not focusing on a narrow Europeans
:39:00. > :39:04.fear. That is a generational choice. We already do half of our trade with
:39:05. > :39:09.our nearest neighbours, democracies in the European Union. That is
:39:10. > :39:14.because of the tariffs. We can trade with the rest of the world, too. We
:39:15. > :39:20.have enormous tariffs on the rest of the world. 32% on the wine in Tim
:39:21. > :39:26.Bosz 's, 17% on beef. We keep out of the rest of the world and make goods
:39:27. > :39:31.more expensive British consumers. I have heard a lot from the panel
:39:32. > :39:38.about England and Scotland. The UK includes two other countries. Where
:39:39. > :39:43.is their voice tonight? What is your view? We are stronger together. As
:39:44. > :39:48.an English man, I would like to have a vote as to whether or not I want
:39:49. > :39:48.Scotland to be part of the United Kingdom.
:39:49. > :40:01.APPLAUSE The woman at the back.
:40:02. > :40:05.I think we have a lesson to learn about intersection, which is that
:40:06. > :40:09.when we are talking about racism, white people should be quiet. When
:40:10. > :40:12.we are talking about sexism, men should be quiet. And when we are
:40:13. > :40:19.talking about Scottish independence, English people should be quiet. On
:40:20. > :40:24.that note, I am going to move on. We will have more debate on this. We
:40:25. > :40:31.are going to be in Wales next week. We're in Bangor next week and then
:40:32. > :40:34.on Monday 27th March at 8.30pm we've a special Question Time
:40:35. > :40:36.from Birmingham - What happens once
:40:37. > :40:42.Article 50 is triggered? And Question Time from
:40:43. > :40:56.Carlisle is on March 30th. I will announce all of that at the
:40:57. > :41:04.end, which will make you fall asleep, but the details are on
:41:05. > :41:08.screen of how to apply. Let's go onto a different point. Isabella
:41:09. > :41:15.Spooner. Should Philip Hammond resign? A nice, straightforward
:41:16. > :41:22.question. Should Philip Hammond resign after a Budget that lasted a
:41:23. > :41:27.week. Angela Eagle. Well, he has been put in a pretty humiliating
:41:28. > :41:30.position. We have had this huge, screeching U-turn on one of the main
:41:31. > :41:36.points of what was meant to be a very simple budget. He was meant to
:41:37. > :41:40.be a safe pair of hands and has fluffed his Budget. And the more
:41:41. > :41:47.astonishing thing was how it emerged that he had not realised he was
:41:48. > :41:53.breaking a manifesto commitment. Now, I read the Tory manifesto but
:41:54. > :41:58.apparently he didn't. You did not leap up and down immediately, it was
:41:59. > :42:02.Laura Kuenssberg at the BBC who spotted it according to Hammond.
:42:03. > :42:07.That is absolutely true, he was told by a BBC journalist that he had
:42:08. > :42:10.broken his manifesto commitment. He had not discussed any of this with
:42:11. > :42:16.colleagues. The Cabinet had not noticed. And we are putting these
:42:17. > :42:21.people in charge of Brexit negotiations. Was the policy right?
:42:22. > :42:25.Well, the interesting thing about the policy and the problem with the
:42:26. > :42:29.way he has botched it, we have a huge issue in the future with the
:42:30. > :42:34.idea that people can be made to be apparently self-employed and opt out
:42:35. > :42:39.for a minor tax advantage of their employment rights. Many people are
:42:40. > :42:43.told they have to be self-employed before they are given work, which
:42:44. > :42:49.means they cannot get access to sick pay, to holiday pay, to maternity or
:42:50. > :42:54.paternity pay. This is affecting our tax base, so he was right, in my
:42:55. > :42:58.view, to look at this whole area. But because he introduced the tax
:42:59. > :43:02.before talking about the benefits, and botched the reform, he has been
:43:03. > :43:06.dragged to the House of Commons by his own side and basically announced
:43:07. > :43:11.that even though there is billions of pounds of tax revenue at risk,
:43:12. > :43:14.that he can't do anything about it for the rest of the parliament. I
:43:15. > :43:18.think his credibility is going south.
:43:19. > :43:25.In business we frequently get things wrong. In fact, almost every day and
:43:26. > :43:28.if we had someone like Theresa May around to give us a good telling off
:43:29. > :43:36.we would change our mind more quickly. We always say within
:43:37. > :43:41.Wetherspoon it's fine to zig-zag to a good conclusion. There is nothing
:43:42. > :43:43.wrong with making a mistake, you have to own up and then get on with
:43:44. > :43:48.it. APPLAUSE
:43:49. > :43:51.A woman is shouting at you. It's OK to make a mistake even if you are
:43:52. > :43:57.the Chancellor? Surely this is an example of incompetence? No.
:43:58. > :44:02.Chancellor's make mistakes all the time. The amaze thing about
:44:03. > :44:06.democracy is that it works. We have all these debates. We have debates
:44:07. > :44:11.in Parliament. Angela gets on the case, so does Jacob and that's why
:44:12. > :44:15.it's such a great system. The problem with the European system is
:44:16. > :44:20.that there are five unelected presidents. You can't deselect
:44:21. > :44:27.President Juncker. Great to have our democracy when we can point out
:44:28. > :44:33.Philip Hammond's mistakes. He's lost trust in the public. I think it's
:44:34. > :44:36.unacceptable Philip Hammond should have been humiliated in this way. By
:44:37. > :44:40.the Prime Minister snoochl by the Prime Minister. He must have
:44:41. > :44:45.considered Respublica Iing nation in the last couple of days. She must
:44:46. > :44:49.also take ownership for what was in the Budget statement. She saw it,
:44:50. > :44:54.presumably the Cabinet discussed it. How it has been allowed to arise the
:44:55. > :45:01.impression that it was all Philip Hammond and nobody else seems to me
:45:02. > :45:03.wrong. I think any Prime Minister who hue mulliataways her Prime
:45:04. > :45:11.Minister in the way this happened will find that revenge may well be
:45:12. > :45:18.served, as it was on Margaret Thatcher, cold in the future. He is
:45:19. > :45:21.a grown up guy he can take a chuff around the cheeks from the Prime
:45:22. > :45:26.Minister. For the Chancellor to resign at the moment, at this chit
:45:27. > :45:30.critical moment when we are about to trigger Article 50 would be against
:45:31. > :45:37.the national interest. He will be hurting and smarting. I'm surprised
:45:38. > :45:47.he would be that sensitive. He will have his revenge. Politicians are
:45:48. > :45:49.sensitive. Are they? Yes. You insisted this measure be blocked. I
:45:50. > :45:53.presume you were one of them? I said so in the Budget debate, that
:45:54. > :45:56.followed the Chancellor's Budget, I think that you need to look
:45:57. > :46:06.at the whole issue of national insurance and disguised
:46:07. > :46:08.self-employment in a proper way and have a fundamental
:46:09. > :46:09.reform of national contributory insurance, it's
:46:10. > :46:13.basically an income tax and look at What about the point
:46:14. > :46:16.that Matthew made? I'm about to come
:46:17. > :46:20.to Mr Parris' point. I do not think, as the lady
:46:21. > :46:22.asked, that Mr Hammond I actually think there
:46:23. > :46:29.is an enormous wisdom in being able to admit that
:46:30. > :46:32.you have made a mistake All of us, in our daily lives,
:46:33. > :46:36.make mistakes and we all know that it is better to correct that
:46:37. > :46:40.mistake and reverse it quickly rather than waiting
:46:41. > :46:45.and having to reverse anyway. The lady who asks about
:46:46. > :46:51.the Chancellor - shouldn't the Well, somebody said
:46:52. > :46:57.of Elizabeth I, a man called Wentworth, he said -
:46:58. > :46:58.none is without fault, no
:46:59. > :47:03.not our gracious Queen. For his pains, he got sent
:47:04. > :47:05.to the Tower of London. We all make mistakes
:47:06. > :47:14.whether we are the Prime Minister or the Chancellor -
:47:15. > :47:17.I'll exclude Her Majesty from this - but we all make mistakes
:47:18. > :47:23.and we are best off if we reverse Cannot just hear the pleasure oozing
:47:24. > :47:30.from Jacob Rees-Mogg as he patronises Philip Hammond
:47:31. > :47:35.and says that we all make mistakes. The fact is, the leavers don't
:47:36. > :47:37.like Philip Hammond. They don't think he's a sufficiently
:47:38. > :47:40.hard lever and they are enjoying the humiliation
:47:41. > :47:41.of the Chancellor. I'm so sorry, this is a wrong
:47:42. > :47:44.obsession with Europe that I used to be accused of when I was
:47:45. > :47:48.a eurosceptic before we had the vote This had nothing what ver to do
:47:49. > :47:52.with Brexit or anything like that. It seemed to me a bad tax move
:47:53. > :47:55.and one that was not Why wasn't it spotted then
:47:56. > :48:01.if it the climb down commitment that will he didn't
:48:02. > :48:05.want to break, why did nobody, the Prime Minister,
:48:06. > :48:09.the Cabinet, you... I think the error was that they
:48:10. > :48:13.thought that the Bill that had made it impossible to change national
:48:14. > :48:15.insurance covered the manifesto I think they looked at a more recent
:48:16. > :48:20.document rather than the original document
:48:21. > :48:23.and that's a perfectly... The 1922 Committee were told that
:48:24. > :48:28.willed there would be no reversal of this when they were complaining
:48:29. > :48:34.about it last week. There were Conservative
:48:35. > :48:36.ministers, on the TV, There are a lot of people
:48:37. > :48:41.who won't forget this huge mess. But that's deeply
:48:42. > :48:45.unrealistic and I hope that, when the time comes
:48:46. > :48:56.and I'm in opposition, Everybody knows that a policy
:48:57. > :49:00.reversal cannot be half admitted. You can't say - well, we might
:49:01. > :49:03.reverse it tomorrow or we might not. You have to wait until the point
:49:04. > :49:06.the reversal is announced. Of course we all make mistakes,
:49:07. > :49:12.but this was a colossal mistake. It was the centrepieces
:49:13. > :49:13.of his Budget. And now that he's had
:49:14. > :49:15.to do the screeching U-turn on it, there's
:49:16. > :49:17.a He didn't mention
:49:18. > :49:22.Brexit at all in his Budget, which most of us found quite
:49:23. > :49:24.surprising and concerning. But this is the man
:49:25. > :49:26.who's going to be in charge of the United Kingdom's
:49:27. > :49:29.finances as we go through the Brexit process, and he made
:49:30. > :49:32.a colossal mistake in his Budget. He seems to have completely
:49:33. > :49:36.forgotten about a manifesto promise. What happened here was,
:49:37. > :49:38.that the Tories rebelled Now, I'm sat between two Tories
:49:39. > :49:47.tonight and they'll know better than I do that Tory rebellions normally
:49:48. > :49:50.tend to be a bit slow burn, but this You could tell from
:49:51. > :49:55.the faces sitting behind the Chancellor as he announced this
:49:56. > :49:57.that people weren't happy about it This change would have had
:49:58. > :50:02.a major impact on small I'm sure there are many
:50:03. > :50:05.of you sitting in the audience tonight who would have
:50:06. > :50:08.been impacted by this. At the very least,
:50:09. > :50:11.if you are going to make such a huge change in policy, you should carry
:50:12. > :50:14.out some consultation with business Clearly, this was a smart idea that
:50:15. > :50:23.was thought up to balance the books
:50:24. > :50:25.in ignorance of a manifesto commitment that's had
:50:26. > :50:26.to Yes, in normal times,
:50:27. > :50:29.to answer Isabelle's question, in normal times one
:50:30. > :50:35.would think that this was a resignation matter but,
:50:36. > :50:37.unfortunately, we're not I don't think the public
:50:38. > :50:40.agree with that. I think the public
:50:41. > :50:42.think this was OK, It's about the ego, according
:50:43. > :50:52.to Matthew and really and the sensitivity of politician,
:50:53. > :50:54.we don't go for this. I'm sorry, we have only
:50:55. > :51:01.got five or six minutes Are we asking the
:51:02. > :51:16.impossible from the NHS Are we asking the impossible from
:51:17. > :51:21.the NHS to deliver with the money it has? Well, yes. You have to be
:51:22. > :51:27.swift, I'm afraid on this. I think so. There is going to be a real
:51:28. > :51:33.terms cut in the next two, three years in NHS budgets. NHS staff, who
:51:34. > :51:41.keep the whole thing going, haven't had a pay rise of any amount for
:51:42. > :51:46.years. The huge cuts to social care, which have happened since 2010,
:51:47. > :51:50.nearly ?5 billion worth of cuts to social care, have actually put
:51:51. > :51:57.enormous extra pressure on the NHS. Of the other week I did a shift with
:51:58. > :52:03.the paramedics in my local area, and they are constantly on the go. As
:52:04. > :52:08.soon as they deliver patients into A and clean the ambulance and get
:52:09. > :52:12.ready to go again, and say they are available, they are called. It's
:52:13. > :52:18.massive, increasing pressure. We have to realise that we've got to
:52:19. > :52:22.fund our NHS properly. We have got to ensure we fund social care
:52:23. > :52:26.properly and ensure those areas work together more otherwise we will lose
:52:27. > :52:30.our NHS in the next few years. Right.
:52:31. > :52:44.APPLAUSE Tim Martin. I'm worried the NHS is a
:52:45. > :52:47.sacred car if you have a car firm or agriculture country people compare
:52:48. > :52:53.it with other countries and firms in the world. We have to start saying -
:52:54. > :52:56.how does it work in France, Germany, Australia? I think they have better
:52:57. > :53:00.systems than us. They spend a lot more money than us. They do. We
:53:01. > :53:04.can't go on like this. It doesn't work any more. No-one wants to say
:53:05. > :53:10.that. The woman up there on the back there. Hello. It's the most
:53:11. > :53:15.efficient health in the world. It's not - Cheapest. It's not a car firm,
:53:16. > :53:17.it is keeps us all going. It's vial vitally important to this country.
:53:18. > :53:22.It's not the same as another industry. It's being treated as
:53:23. > :53:28.another industry. It's being under-funded. Personally - Sold off.
:53:29. > :53:35.Exactly. We need to protect it. We know what is happening to it. Is it
:53:36. > :53:39.impossible to deliver? The money for the NHS goes up year in year out. It
:53:40. > :53:44.was ringfenced in the age of austerity. It's getting another ?10
:53:45. > :53:46.billion before the end of the Parliament. I don't think endlessly
:53:47. > :53:52.providing more money is ultimately going to be the answer. There are
:53:53. > :53:58.enormous strains. The ageing population, one million more people
:53:59. > :54:02.over the age of 75 since 2010. In seven years. Why are we cutting
:54:03. > :54:05.social care? Social care is also getting more money. The Labour Party
:54:06. > :54:11.always thinks it's about money. It's not. It's going to be about
:54:12. > :54:13.delivery. We will have to think seriously how we deliver health and
:54:14. > :54:17.social social care in this country. We have to be open to reform. I
:54:18. > :54:20.don't know what that. Is I don't have a policy prescription, but I
:54:21. > :54:23.think we need a national conversation about how we are going
:54:24. > :54:27.to develop this because there isn't endless money. There isn't a money
:54:28. > :54:32.tree that is going to pour billions in. It has been protected in a time
:54:33. > :54:35.of austerity, but there are always demands for more. An ageing
:54:36. > :54:39.population, better types of medicine, on it goes. We need a
:54:40. > :54:43.serious conversation about how we are going to deal with this. Would
:54:44. > :54:48.you like to see or examine the possibility of a tax specifically
:54:49. > :54:52.for the NHS? No, absolutely not. They are a great mistaking they lead
:54:53. > :54:56.to the wrong amount of money, too much or too little. Too much gets
:54:57. > :55:01.pinched and the two little has to be topped up. Governments cheat on
:55:02. > :55:07.those taxes. I'd like to ask what the Government is going to do to
:55:08. > :55:12.provide more GPs? I work in a GP surgery and over the last three
:55:13. > :55:15.years we've struggled to even get locoms to come in because of the
:55:16. > :55:20.amount of paperwork that the Government put in place. So there is
:55:21. > :55:26.actually less time for patient care and then the Government say - we
:55:27. > :55:31.need doctors for 24-hours a day, we should make them work longer. They
:55:32. > :55:35.work hard. They work long. Is it money or the administration that's
:55:36. > :55:39.in the way? Both. You need both. We are asking the impossible from the
:55:40. > :55:44.NHS. We have always asked the impossible from the NHS. The NHS has
:55:45. > :55:48.always struggled, always wanted more money, politicians have never been
:55:49. > :55:52.able to give it as much money as they want. The result is that we
:55:53. > :55:57.have a good second rate health service in Britain for the cost of
:55:58. > :56:02.what would in any other country be a fourth rate health service. We get
:56:03. > :56:06.very good value out of the NHS. APPLAUSE
:56:07. > :56:12.But it's under strain. It's fraying. We must find new sources of of
:56:13. > :56:15.revenue. Just to cut to the quick, I think people like me ought to have
:56:16. > :56:20.to pay something towards our healthcare because I can afford to.
:56:21. > :56:27.APPLAUSE Joanna. Yes, the Tories are asking
:56:28. > :56:32.the impossible of the NHS in England and Wales because they under fund
:56:33. > :56:35.it. Health sl devolved in Scotland. We have pumped record funding into
:56:36. > :56:39.the NHS in Scotland. We have the best A waiting times in the United
:56:40. > :56:43.Kingdom. We have more staff per head than the NHS in England and Wales
:56:44. > :56:48.and you see no junior doctors striking in our NHS. What are the
:56:49. > :56:53.outcomes? The Tory Government should take a leaf out of the Scottish
:56:54. > :56:57.Government's book and fund the NHS in England and Wales properly. What
:56:58. > :57:01.are the outcomes? What is your point, Matthew? What are the
:57:02. > :57:04.outcomes in health in Scotland? Health in Scotland is improving,
:57:05. > :57:08.Matthew. Health in Scotland is improving. For example, ladies and
:57:09. > :57:12.gentlemen, prescriptions in Scotland are free. Vulnerable, disabled or
:57:13. > :57:16.elderly people get their prescriptions for free. What are the
:57:17. > :57:20.outcomes. You sir, your hand has been up all evening. Yes. Brief
:57:21. > :57:24.point we have to end. I think the NHS is one of the most fundamentally
:57:25. > :57:28.important things about the UK. I think it's far more important than
:57:29. > :57:32.Brexit. It's far more important than anything. People should have more
:57:33. > :57:35.say into what the NHS delivers and how it is run. I think it's far more
:57:36. > :57:39.important. Most people here would probably agree. Everyone here has
:57:40. > :57:41.and is going to use it. Way more people.
:57:42. > :57:46.APPLAUSE Thank you. All right. Thank you very
:57:47. > :57:50.much indeed. We have stop there because our time is up. Apologies to
:57:51. > :57:53.the many hands in the air if you can apologise to a hand.
:57:54. > :57:59.Our time is up. We are going to be in Bangor next week. On Monday, 27th
:58:00. > :58:02.March we have this special one-and-a-half hour programme on
:58:03. > :58:07.Britain after Brexit. It's coming from Birmingham. 8. 30pm on BBC One.
:58:08. > :58:11.We don't know whether Article 50 will have been triggered on that
:58:12. > :58:16.Monday or the day after. That is the context of it. A normal, no such
:58:17. > :58:21.thing as a standard Question Time, a normal or a regular Question Time in
:58:22. > :58:24.Carlisle on the 30th March. So if you can come to any of those
:58:25. > :58:29.programmes you will be very, very welcome. That is Bangor on the 23rd,
:58:30. > :58:38.Birmingham on the 27, Carlisle on the 30th. You can apply on the
:58:39. > :58:44.website. It's on the screen. Or call O330 123 99 88. This debate will go
:58:45. > :58:50.on Radio 5Live on Question Time Extra Time. My thanks to my panel
:58:51. > :58:54.and all of you who came to take part. From Bognor Regis, until next
:58:55. > :59:21.Thursday, good night. The laws in the state of Florida
:59:22. > :59:24.are very harsh. The good men and women of
:59:25. > :59:27.law enforcement