:00:00. > :00:13.Tonight we are in Bangor in North Wales.
:00:14. > :00:16.And on our panel tonight, the Minister for Policing,
:00:17. > :00:21.The Shadow Defence Secretary, Nia Griffith.
:00:22. > :00:25.The leader of Plaid Cymru, Leanne Wood.
:00:26. > :00:26.The Church of England priest and Guardian
:00:27. > :00:46.And the Times and Spectator columnist, Hugo Rifkind.
:00:47. > :00:50.Just a reminder that if you are watching at home you can
:00:51. > :00:55.join the debate on Facebook, on Twitter, or by text on 83981,
:00:56. > :01:00.and pushing the red button to see what others are saying.
:01:01. > :01:03.The first question tonight is from Jonathan Sutton, please.
:01:04. > :01:06.Is terror part and parcel of modern Britain?
:01:07. > :01:11.It's a quote from the Mayor of London who, in September last
:01:12. > :01:14.year, said, "part and parcel of living in a great city
:01:15. > :01:17.is you have to be prepared for things like this".
:01:18. > :01:19.So is it part and parcel of modern Britain?
:01:20. > :01:30.Terror is going to be present with us, I think, in the future.
:01:31. > :01:34.I think if you think you can eradicate it,
:01:35. > :01:40.it will come up and bite you somewhere else.
:01:41. > :01:43.So I think it is a part of our lives.
:01:44. > :01:49.And I think that we have to learn to live with it.
:01:50. > :01:52.That doesn't mean to say we like it, or don't try and stop it,
:01:53. > :01:56.but sometimes the efforts to stamp it out are the things that feed it.
:01:57. > :02:02.You see, we know why we are talking about this.
:02:03. > :02:04.We are talking about this because of what happened
:02:05. > :02:09.And part of me would like not to talk about it at all.
:02:10. > :02:11.To, as it were, say, "We pray for the people
:02:12. > :02:13.who have been killed, we pray for the victims",
:02:14. > :02:17.but don't give these people the oxygen of publicity.
:02:18. > :02:28.Sorry, it's an interesting point, but how do you avoid
:02:29. > :02:36.We have a free press and a media and we talk about it.
:02:37. > :02:40.But there is a little part of me that would quite like the idea of us
:02:41. > :02:43.on Question Time to go, "OK, let's move onto the next stuff,
:02:44. > :02:48.They don't have a voice apart from ours.
:02:49. > :02:53.Yes, it would be nice to keep this brief.
:02:54. > :03:01.Well, I have sympathy for what Giles is saying, but there is also,
:03:02. > :03:04.in terms of making the point, actually the fact that this show
:03:05. > :03:07.is on tonight and we will be discussing other things is that
:03:08. > :03:11.clear message that the British way of life, we will get on and go
:03:12. > :03:14.We will not kowtow to this and the British way of life,
:03:15. > :03:18.And I think that is a really important message.
:03:19. > :03:21.But I do think there is also a space, and it is right there has
:03:22. > :03:25.been a space over the last 24 hours and there will be in days and weeks
:03:26. > :03:28.to come, rightly as well, to also just remember what it does
:03:29. > :03:31.highlight is the phenomenal heroism and bravery shown
:03:32. > :03:34.by our emergency services, particularly our police, and the PC
:03:35. > :03:38.who lost his life yesterday, going out of his way to run
:03:39. > :03:41.into danger, to make safe other people.
:03:42. > :03:44.We have an amazing police service that do that for us in one form
:03:45. > :03:49.or another at various levels across the country every single day.
:03:50. > :03:51.But coming to the actual point of the question,
:03:52. > :03:54.the core of the question, if we look at what is happening
:03:55. > :03:57.around the world, you talk about do we have to get used
:03:58. > :04:00.I think globally there is a challenge.
:04:01. > :04:02.There is no getting away from the fact that we have been
:04:03. > :04:05.at a severe threat level for some considerable period of time.
:04:06. > :04:07.We have to face up to that, recognise that.
:04:08. > :04:10.We also have to carry on and do our normal
:04:11. > :04:12.work but be vigilant, as the Mayor of London rightly said,
:04:13. > :04:16.But ultimately, remember we have phenomenal bravery and heroism
:04:17. > :04:18.across our country every day, and we saw that absolutely
:04:19. > :04:22.highlighted yesterday in those actions.
:04:23. > :04:30.I agree with what Simon Jenkins said, the journalist
:04:31. > :04:34.from the Guardian yesterday, who challenged the media
:04:35. > :04:40.He basically made the case that what terrorists want
:04:41. > :04:43.is for all of us to be fearful, and for them to get
:04:44. > :04:49.And so the more we talk about it in the media
:04:50. > :04:54.and amongst ourselves, as politicians, I think
:04:55. > :04:57.the danger is that we are playing into their hands.
:04:58. > :05:00.But the question was about whether or not we have to
:05:01. > :05:02.accept this is part and parcel of our lives.
:05:03. > :05:06.I do believe a Pandora's box was opened in the Middle East.
:05:07. > :05:11.And I do believe that there is no end in sight to that conflict
:05:12. > :05:19.And while that is ongoing, some people will have grievances.
:05:20. > :05:25.And as a result, all of us are potentially unsafe.
:05:26. > :05:28.But I think it is worth paying tribute to all of those people
:05:29. > :05:30.who were in London yesterday who were working to save people's
:05:31. > :05:36.lives and to prevent what could have be a much worse atrocity, I think.
:05:37. > :05:45.Is Donald Trump right in what he's doing by trying to halt people
:05:46. > :05:50.travelling and creating havoc for other people in other countries?
:05:51. > :05:53.Well, the person, as I understand it, the person who was
:05:54. > :06:03.So I'm not sure how any changes to immigration rules would have made
:06:04. > :06:07.He was influenced by international terrorism.
:06:08. > :06:12.Well, yes, but the access to that is available on the internet.
:06:13. > :06:16.I mean, you can't really affect that by changing immigration rules.
:06:17. > :06:20.If I may, I couldn't disagree more with the first bit
:06:21. > :06:27.I don't want to live in a country where terrorists attack us
:06:28. > :06:30.and we don't report it and where we don't know about it,
:06:31. > :06:33.and where there is an agreement that the press shouldn't say it.
:06:34. > :06:35.Terrorism doesn't need to make us afraid.
:06:36. > :06:38.I kept thinking yesterday of the words of John Stewart,
:06:39. > :06:44.He said that 9/11 didn't make him fear for society because he looked
:06:45. > :06:47.at what had happened and he saw a handful of people that crashed
:06:48. > :06:50.aeroplanes into two buildings, and hundreds of people who'd gone
:06:51. > :06:51.into those buildings to save the people inside.
:06:52. > :06:54.And he said he'd take those odds every day.
:06:55. > :06:56.And I think that's the message you take away from terrorism.
:06:57. > :06:59.You look at what happened yesterday, it doesn't make us feel
:07:00. > :07:02.It shouldn't make us feel more frightened about our country.
:07:03. > :07:05.We can find a positive message if we want one.
:07:06. > :07:08.I think there was a really key point made by a colleague this morning
:07:09. > :07:10.who saw something on the underground coming back into
:07:11. > :07:13.Underground workers had put a notice that said
:07:14. > :07:16.something along the lines of, I'm sorry if my words aren't quite
:07:17. > :07:19.right, but basically, "We will make a cup of tea and get
:07:20. > :07:22.And that, I thought, was the right message.
:07:23. > :07:25.Obviously this is a terrible incident in London,
:07:26. > :07:31.but should our police officers be armed, following this incident?
:07:32. > :07:36.Well, I think first of all I want to express my deepest sympathy
:07:37. > :07:39.to the victims' families and friends, and obviously
:07:40. > :07:42.we remember PC Keith Palmer and the work that he did
:07:43. > :07:46.as a Metropolitan Police officer trying to defend Parliament.
:07:47. > :07:49.I think this is a matter, an operational matter,
:07:50. > :07:53.which is something which the police themselves need to decide.
:07:54. > :07:56.We in this country have a long tradition of having both
:07:57. > :08:02.And if the police decide that there should be more armed police,
:08:03. > :08:07.But what is also important is that we have that very strong
:08:08. > :08:11.link between our communities and the police, and so often
:08:12. > :08:15.it is the police who are the eyes and ears in our communities,
:08:16. > :08:18.who can actually work together with communities,
:08:19. > :08:24.can give information to the security services, which can
:08:25. > :08:27.And I think we should remember that our security
:08:28. > :08:30.highly regarded across the world, have time after time prevented
:08:31. > :08:34.The person who asked that question, he was unarmed,
:08:35. > :08:36.the policeman who was stabbed to death, wasn't he?
:08:37. > :08:42.I just think maybe the circumstances might have been different had
:08:43. > :08:48.It's an unfair playing field, I feel.
:08:49. > :08:54.I think we are talking about not discussing it,
:08:55. > :08:58.but I feel for the victims if we don't talk about it,
:08:59. > :09:01.do they then get swept under the carpet and forgotten about?
:09:02. > :09:06.It's not about giving the terrorists a platform,
:09:07. > :09:12.but it's just those individuals that lost their lives and were injured.
:09:13. > :09:15.If we don't discuss it and talk about it, then they just
:09:16. > :09:21.No one's saying we have a blanket, "Don't talk about it".
:09:22. > :09:26.But what I was talking about, there is a way of responding to this
:09:27. > :09:31.And then the media gets itself terribly frothed up
:09:32. > :09:37.And that's the sort of thing we need to avoid because that's the sort
:09:38. > :09:39.of thing that does the terrorists' work for them.
:09:40. > :09:45.I know this Tube station sign where it said, "Dear terrorists,
:09:46. > :09:49.you are not going to change us, you are not going to change us".
:09:50. > :09:51.Something like, "We are Londoners and we have seen worse before.
:09:52. > :09:56."Thank you very much, but we ain't going to change".
:09:57. > :09:59.And that's the right answer to this, as well as remembering and praying
:10:00. > :10:02.for all of those people who have lost their lives in this
:10:03. > :10:09.I think that by not discussing something, you actually
:10:10. > :10:16.I think the way we need to respond is by not changing our actions
:10:17. > :10:19.but not just pretending that these things don't happen.
:10:20. > :10:22.So we need to carry on with our daily lives,
:10:23. > :10:26.but I think to just completely not speak about it would actually
:10:27. > :10:33.I think that's a really good point in that question around
:10:34. > :10:35.having the conversation to have the confidence
:10:36. > :10:41.We are very fortunate in this country to have world-renowned
:10:42. > :10:47.We have heard over the last few months the amount of times they have
:10:48. > :10:50.kept us safe and prevented things over the last couple of years.
:10:51. > :10:53.And we have got, I would argue, the best police force in the world,
:10:54. > :10:58.And that confidence to be able to say that, have that conversation,
:10:59. > :11:01.is important in us having the ability to go on and live our
:11:02. > :11:05.Jonathan Sutton, who asked the question, what do you make
:11:06. > :11:10.I don't think we should make a thing of it.
:11:11. > :11:13.I think we are unfortunately in a world where we have to accept
:11:14. > :11:16.these things happen but I don't think we should allow it to change
:11:17. > :11:22.And we should be very, very proud in this country
:11:23. > :11:25.that we do have a system where our police police by consent.
:11:26. > :11:27.And the police themselves are immensely protective and rightly
:11:28. > :11:30.proud of the fact that the majority of our police are unarmed.
:11:31. > :11:33.And that is something in our country that I think is worth valuing.
:11:34. > :11:38.A couple more points from our audience.
:11:39. > :11:41.The man at the very back, and then we will move
:11:42. > :11:46.Does the media have a responsibility not to glorify terrorism?
:11:47. > :11:52.Well, they talk about the acts of terrorism,
:11:53. > :11:59.They should be looking at not glorifying it so much,
:12:00. > :12:11.There has been a lot on television but not a great deal...
:12:12. > :12:14.Things get said over and over again once you get
:12:15. > :12:19.You don't actually gain very much information.
:12:20. > :12:26.The policing minister has mentioned a few times that police
:12:27. > :12:29.Why then every year are you cutting police budgets?
:12:30. > :12:31.The thin blue line is getting thinner.
:12:32. > :12:41.I'm not going to shy away from the fact that over the last few
:12:42. > :12:43.years we have had to make some really difficult decisions around
:12:44. > :12:47.We all know, and you have heard before, the problems we have
:12:48. > :12:51.with debt in this country and we have had to deal with that.
:12:52. > :12:52.The Budget last year, we protected police money,
:12:53. > :12:55.and we've also increased the spending in this area,
:12:56. > :12:58.The Prime Minister outlined some of where that money has been
:12:59. > :13:05.They have the resources they need to do their job, decided by those
:13:06. > :13:08.When someone talked earlier on about more armed police,
:13:09. > :13:12.our armed police, I have seen them in the last few weeks at training
:13:13. > :13:15.centres, they are highly trained specialists doing an amazing job.
:13:16. > :13:22.You have cut spending by 25% over five years and there are 20,000
:13:23. > :13:29.If you were to listen now, morale in the police force is at a low?
:13:30. > :13:34.Because I am an ex-police officer myself and I speak to officers now.
:13:35. > :13:37.And there's a lot of police officers who leave the service because of
:13:38. > :13:42.Well, I do speak to police officers of all ranks on a regular basis.
:13:43. > :13:45.Most weeks I am out visiting and I talk to police officers.
:13:46. > :13:48.And they are rightly proud of what they do, as I have said.
:13:49. > :13:51.We have made tough decisions but policing is also changing.
:13:52. > :13:54.Recorded crime, traditional crime is down 25% since 2010.
:13:55. > :13:57.We have the challenge of the digital world
:13:58. > :14:03.But we are also increasing the spend on areas like this,
:14:04. > :14:06.counter-terrorism, to make sure we have the resilience we need
:14:07. > :14:09.in this country and that police have the resources they need to be
:14:10. > :14:15.And you are not content with that, briefly, if you would.
:14:16. > :14:17.Crime is going down and more prisons are being built.
:14:18. > :14:20.Is that one of the reasons why crime is going down?
:14:21. > :14:22.The cuts are there to try and reduce the debt,
:14:23. > :14:25.yet the debt is not being reduced, so none of this makes
:14:26. > :14:37.Just before we go to our second question I should say this.
:14:38. > :14:42.On Monday we have a special Question Time from Birmingham next Monday -
:14:43. > :14:46.Britain after Brexit, about what happens after Article
:14:47. > :14:53.Thursday's Question Time comes from Carlisle and the week
:14:54. > :14:57.So if you want to come to Birmingham next Monday,
:14:58. > :15:01.Carlisle on Thursday the following week, Gillingham,
:15:02. > :15:08.there is the address address to apply to.
:15:09. > :15:16.How will the Welsh economy cope when the EU funding
:15:17. > :15:20.How will the Welsh economy cope when EU funding stops?
:15:21. > :15:26.It receives a good deal more money than the rest of the UK from the EU.
:15:27. > :15:30.I think, I mean all across Britain, it's going to be difficult.
:15:31. > :15:35.I mean the economy is already struggling as a result
:15:36. > :15:41.I'm constantly baffled by the way that Wales voted
:15:42. > :15:52.One has to hope that the Government sees its role as being to step
:15:53. > :15:56.in and fill the gap of a lot of the funding that a lot of areas,
:15:57. > :16:00.including much of Wales, would be losing from the EU.
:16:01. > :16:03.This doesn't seem like a Government particularly inclined to do that
:16:04. > :16:07.sort of thing so we'll have to wait and see.
:16:08. > :16:11.Well, I'm a Brexiter, I voted enthusiastically for Brexit and I am
:16:12. > :16:20.For me, what was most important about it, wasn't the economic
:16:21. > :16:26.argument but that actually, it enhanced our democracy,
:16:27. > :16:29.that it collapsed the gap between people and power.
:16:30. > :16:31.For me, power had become in Brussels too distant,
:16:32. > :16:34.too alien and it wasn't something that many people felt that they had
:16:35. > :16:38.They didn't feel it was there for them.
:16:39. > :16:42.So because I believe in the power of democracy and the way
:16:43. > :16:45.in which ordinary people can control politics through democracy,
:16:46. > :16:55.I think it may well be the case that the rebalancing of the economy
:16:56. > :16:57.that will be necessary will be hard for lots of people,
:16:58. > :17:01.for lots of us it will be hard, but I think in the long-term
:17:02. > :17:03.if we have our destiny in our own hands, it
:17:04. > :17:05.will be much better for all of us.
:17:06. > :17:12.Do you know Giles how callous you sound?
:17:13. > :17:18.You talk about destiny and democracy, these are fine things.
:17:19. > :17:22.Having a job is a fine thing, having a healthy economy is a fine thing.
:17:23. > :17:28.I'm sorry but I think democracy really is a fine thing and I think
:17:29. > :17:31.we have a great Parliamentary tradition which we saw
:17:32. > :17:35.being attacked yesterday by terrorists and it's something
:17:36. > :17:39.that we should rightly be proud of in this country, our democracy.
:17:40. > :17:41.We should be rightly proud of our democracy and our democratic
:17:42. > :17:48.institutions and we should not be giving away the birth right of our
:17:49. > :17:55.That is something that you are given.
:17:56. > :17:59.Let's not rerun that argument because that argument's been
:18:00. > :18:12.I just want to ask, what politics has benefitted from this?
:18:13. > :18:18.I think the really important thing is not only Wales but areas
:18:19. > :18:20.across the UK have benefitted from EU funding specifically given
:18:21. > :18:26.What really worries me is that Brandon's colleague, Alun Cairns,
:18:27. > :18:29.the Secretary of State for Wales, has specifically said that there can
:18:30. > :18:32.be no guarantee that these areas will continue to receive that money.
:18:33. > :18:35.Now that does worry me because this was money that was specifically
:18:36. > :18:37.given in order to boost the economies in areas
:18:38. > :18:41.where there is need to do so to bring up the level of those
:18:42. > :18:42.economies, to have greater equality across the UK.
:18:43. > :18:45.It worries me considerably that we now have Government that
:18:46. > :18:49.will ignore criteria and simply say, well, perhaps we'll have a pet
:18:50. > :18:53.project here or there, and we won't get the distribution
:18:54. > :18:57.Brandon Lewis, do you want to reply to that?
:18:58. > :19:03.Well, I mean, the reality is, whenever there's a decision made,
:19:04. > :19:05.we've got to get a good deal for this country, I'm
:19:06. > :19:11.We have already, the Government's already, and we have been clear
:19:12. > :19:13.that we guarantee the money for the EU structure
:19:14. > :19:16.and the investment projects which were already signed before
:19:17. > :19:19.we leave the EU, even if they continue beyond the departure.
:19:20. > :19:21.I think the point that the Secretary of State for Wales Alun Cairns
:19:22. > :19:24.is making is exactly right, which is that we are
:19:25. > :19:26.going into a negotiation and what comes after that,
:19:27. > :19:30.Yes, but we have the same amount of money.
:19:31. > :19:34.It's about getting a deal for everybody in all parts of the UK.
:19:35. > :19:37.We have the same amount of money, when we come out of EU,
:19:38. > :19:41.we have the money that we don't put into the EU and the decision
:19:42. > :19:46.about how to use that money comes back to the Westminster Government.
:19:47. > :19:49.Now, the point I'm making is that, instead of using the criteria
:19:50. > :19:53.of which are the most disadvantaged areas that need their economies
:19:54. > :19:59.boosting, your colleague Alun Cairns and other colleagues in the Cabinet
:20:00. > :20:06.are actually saying they are going to scrap this all together.
:20:07. > :20:11.The negotiation with Europe is nothing to do with how we spend
:20:12. > :20:13.the money that we don't actually give to Europe.
:20:14. > :20:19.First of all, I would like to point out that Gwynedd as a county voted
:20:20. > :20:21.to remain, one of the few areas in Wales.
:20:22. > :20:27.And secondly, I would like to know, as North Wales is usually the poor
:20:28. > :20:30.relative to South Wales, I would like to know how people
:20:31. > :20:34.are going to secure investment for North Wales and not just it
:20:35. > :20:43.Are you alarmed by what may happen, fearful are you?
:20:44. > :20:49.I work for the third sector and see first hand how heavily
:20:50. > :20:53.Let's hear from one other person, you with
:20:54. > :21:01.It's symptomatic, the way you responded to that question.
:21:02. > :21:10.The question's about Wales and you told us about democracy
:21:11. > :21:15.I feel there is a democratic deficit.
:21:16. > :21:20.I feel there is a democratic deficit for us here.
:21:21. > :21:23.I live on Anglesey, we have opposed through all democratic
:21:24. > :21:24.voices that we have, some plans for example
:21:25. > :21:27.against the National Grid, and we are not getting that voice
:21:28. > :21:31.through, although every representative vice from Anglesey,
:21:32. > :21:34.from community councils, County Councils,
:21:35. > :21:40.It was even discussed in the Assembly but because we don't
:21:41. > :21:43.have powers over energy, I have a democratic deficit.
:21:44. > :21:46.It doesn't enhance my democratic voice to be outside of Brexit.
:21:47. > :21:58.Hugo, you said that you were shocked by Wales voting leave as a majority.
:21:59. > :22:02.Do you think the people of Wales were misled or misinformed in terms
:22:03. > :22:09.The building we are sitting in now was partially funded by the EU.
:22:10. > :22:12.Do you think they were misinformed or misled in terms of the EU
:22:13. > :22:15.projects that benefitted them so well?
:22:16. > :22:18.Briefly on that because I want to bring Leanne in.
:22:19. > :22:27.I think the various bits of the leave campaign and leave EU,
:22:28. > :22:31.the other campaign worked very hard to prevent Brexit from being
:22:32. > :22:33.a debate about the economy and they managed to do that.
:22:34. > :22:36.They managed to turn it into a debate about God knows what,
:22:37. > :22:40.I think that was misleading, wilfully misleading.
:22:41. > :22:44.I wouldn't like to say that the people of Wales were fooled.
:22:45. > :22:48.But the voters, it's a mystery to me.
:22:49. > :22:56.I want to go to the point that was made up there
:22:57. > :22:59.because the powers-that-be in Westminster are not
:23:00. > :23:02.We are ignored on just too many different issues.
:23:03. > :23:08.Plaid Cymru worked with the Welsh Government,
:23:09. > :23:10.put together a White Paper outlining exactly what Wales's needs
:23:11. > :23:19.We currently get ?658 million per year from the EU
:23:20. > :23:22.and that is more than we put in as Wales and Plaid Cymru
:23:23. > :23:24.put amendments down in Westminster to guarantee that
:23:25. > :23:31.We included that as a clause in the Government's White Paper as well.
:23:32. > :23:35.The Prime Minister has said that she will consult the nations
:23:36. > :23:39.I've not seen any evidence that she has.
:23:40. > :23:41.What kind of consultation do you expect?
:23:42. > :23:56.Putting aside the fact the Prime Minister's been here three
:23:57. > :24:02.Equally, the White Paper negotiations, I myself sat on joint
:24:03. > :24:05.ministerial council meetings with ministers from Wales
:24:06. > :24:09.and Scotland and Ireland as well, discussing issues, in my case around
:24:10. > :24:12.security issues and law enforcement issues and what
:24:13. > :24:16.What about the guarantees on our funding then?
:24:17. > :24:19.Both discussions are going on, but we have started what will be two
:24:20. > :24:24.Hang on, the Prime Minister came here and spoke to
:24:25. > :24:30.She came to the conference last week and she's been here several times
:24:31. > :24:37.Wales is going to lose ?650 million every year.
:24:38. > :24:39.We want some guarantees from the UK Government
:24:40. > :24:43.We have already got too many weaknesses and challenges
:24:44. > :24:48.We don't have the tools and the powers to actually rectify
:24:49. > :24:50.those problems in our assembly in Cardiff Bay.
:24:51. > :25:00.I can't explain why people voted to leave.
:25:01. > :25:08.Immigration was a big question throughout the country and many
:25:09. > :25:12.More people get the news from tabloid newspapers
:25:13. > :25:15.in Wales than they do from Welsh media sources.
:25:16. > :25:18.So they don't listen to you, you say, your own constituency?
:25:19. > :25:22.It's very difficult to get your message across when you haven't got
:25:23. > :25:24.a very strong Welsh media, David.
:25:25. > :25:28.It's very patronising, all this thing you get
:25:29. > :25:31.from remainers saying people were fooled and they
:25:32. > :25:42.The message people are hearing is that they were fooled,
:25:43. > :25:57.it was all to do with the media, there was tabloid newspapers saying
:25:58. > :25:59.People are grown-ups and in Wales they voted to leave
:26:00. > :26:01.and they understood, like other people,
:26:02. > :26:05.The idea that you come on afterwards and say,
:26:06. > :26:08.they don't really understand, poor little dears, no, I won't treat
:26:09. > :26:12.No, I said I don't understand, I didn't say people
:26:13. > :26:14.didn't understand, I said I don't understand why.
:26:15. > :26:17.The man up there in the blue and purple shirt there.
:26:18. > :26:20.The reason that so many people in Wales voted the way they did
:26:21. > :26:23.was because they know deep down they're going to be worse off
:26:24. > :26:25.economically throughout this whole debacle, if you will,
:26:26. > :26:28.but the thing is, where I come from in Wrexham, it was a massive
:26:29. > :26:31.leave vote and the way the town's become over the last few
:26:32. > :26:35.People can't get jobs because we have such an influx
:26:36. > :26:39.of cheap labour from Europe and it's very demeaning.
:26:40. > :26:44.It doesn't matter how Wales spends the money anyway because within five
:26:45. > :26:46.years of the UK leaving there'll be no EU anyway.
:26:47. > :26:54.From your point of view, you think the Welsh economy will be
:26:55. > :26:57.better off, Wrexham will be better off and can cope?
:26:58. > :27:03.I don't want to be tied to a dying union, at the end of the day.
:27:04. > :27:04.Jessica Berry who asked the question?
:27:05. > :27:07.Personally I find it extremely worrying.
:27:08. > :27:14.I am on a committee for part of the local service in our village.
:27:15. > :27:18.A lot of funding that we have, we envisage that might
:27:19. > :27:26.Like the lady said down there, an awful lot of the third sector
:27:27. > :27:30.funding which is replacing the cuts that the councils are having to make
:27:31. > :27:33.are being funded by the EU and we are just going to end
:27:34. > :27:42.But what is your view about what Leanne said about wanting
:27:43. > :27:45.the Prime Minister and the Government to give guarantees?
:27:46. > :27:48.Do you feel that the voice of Wales is being heard or ignored?
:27:49. > :27:52.I would love it if Westminster did give a guarantee but they never said
:27:53. > :27:55.they were going to and I would very much doubt that they will.
:27:56. > :28:01.From what Leanne's been saying, Westminster hasn't been listening,
:28:02. > :28:04.it isn't listening and it's not likely to listen in the future.
:28:05. > :28:07.So let's have a grown-up debate about independence in Wales.
:28:08. > :28:18.You can't Visit Wales without having a question on independence.
:28:19. > :28:21.You, Sir, in the front, then we'll move on?
:28:22. > :28:24.I voted for leave and I fought for Labour leave here in Bangor.
:28:25. > :28:28.I voted for direct democracy and I voted for a fairer immigration
:28:29. > :28:32.system and I'm actually married to an immigrant, a non-EU
:28:33. > :28:44.We have gone far away from the money issue.
:28:45. > :28:48.Let's go on to another question though.
:28:49. > :28:51.Time is always against us on Question Time.
:28:52. > :28:53.David Arkwright, can we have your question?
:28:54. > :28:56.Is it fair to families of victims murdered by Martin McGuinness
:28:57. > :29:00.and the IRA to heap so much praise on him?
:29:01. > :29:03.Is it fair to families of victims murdered by Martin McGuinness
:29:04. > :29:07.and the IRA to heap so much praise on him, Brandon Lewis?
:29:08. > :29:15.First of all, I couldn't and none of us could condone what happened
:29:16. > :29:22.The reality is, in his later life, he was undoubtedly a very,
:29:23. > :29:25.very important part of getting through that peace process
:29:26. > :29:28.and where we are now in Northern Ireland and I think
:29:29. > :29:32.But that doesn't mean that anybody should forget
:29:33. > :29:35.what many victims will feel from what happened before that.
:29:36. > :29:37.He never apologised for his time in the IRA?
:29:38. > :29:40.I think it's one of those things, if we look at...
:29:41. > :29:42.Here is a very extreme example of the fact that many,
:29:43. > :29:47.many people who're involved in things around the world,
:29:48. > :29:50.throughout history, are very, very complex individuals and he's
:29:51. > :29:54.done things that I would Never dream to condone and I wouldn't think
:29:55. > :29:56.anybody in this audience or watching this programme would
:29:57. > :30:03.He was also, and it's rightly recognised, that there was a point
:30:04. > :30:06.in his life when he became an integral part in delivering
:30:07. > :30:08.really important peace process in Northern Ireland and that's just
:30:09. > :30:17.I think the reason why men like Martin McGuinness had to bring
:30:18. > :30:20.peace in Northern Ireland is because men like Martin McGuinness
:30:21. > :30:26.The point is, though, that making peace,
:30:27. > :30:35.Part of the sacrifice made by the victims of the IRA entailed
:30:36. > :30:38.that men like Martin McGuinness got to spend the rest of their life
:30:39. > :30:40.wandering around as if they were fully functional,
:30:41. > :30:45.And I can't regret that it was done because there is peace
:30:46. > :30:55.Well, I absolutely condemn the violent acts that
:30:56. > :30:57.Martin McGuinness may have had a part in in the earlier
:30:58. > :31:12.And I think the pictures that we've seen on our television screens this
:31:13. > :31:14.week have just brought back the horror of the Troubles
:31:15. > :31:18.But I think if you look at who went to his funeral,
:31:19. > :31:21.there was respect, in the end, for what he did in terms of working
:31:22. > :31:23.with people across the political divide in Northern Ireland,
:31:24. > :31:25.working with people like Ian Paisley, to try
:31:26. > :31:31.I would say its respect for trying to bring some sort of peace
:31:32. > :31:37.It's by no manner finished yet, and there is still the past to be
:31:38. > :31:40.dealt with and there needs to be a proper process
:31:41. > :31:42.for dealing with that past, before Northern Ireland
:31:43. > :31:49.I think the reason that he's gone down the line of talking
:31:50. > :31:52.is because he saw it was coming to an end, the IRA.
:31:53. > :32:01.The police and MI5 had infiltrated into the IRA and he could see
:32:02. > :32:07.that there was going to be an end, and he thought, "I'll go down
:32:08. > :32:12.the political way and make life easy for myself".
:32:13. > :32:20.I think we must remember the victims on both sides of this conflict.
:32:21. > :32:24.It was horrific when it was going on, both the unionist
:32:25. > :32:32.And the deaths of civilians is always, always wrong.
:32:33. > :32:44.And there were 3,352 people who lost their lives
:32:45. > :32:49.And I can fully understand why those people who were affected can perhaps
:32:50. > :32:51.never, ever forgive the actions of those people who
:32:52. > :32:58.But I think that peace was secured as a result of a change of tack.
:32:59. > :33:02.And, OK, we could argue that peace could have come much earlier.
:33:03. > :33:09.And I think that it saved many lives, had it not
:33:10. > :33:15.So Martin McGuinness is known for his IRA involvement.
:33:16. > :33:19.But I think he should also be recognised for his role
:33:20. > :33:27.Giles Fraser, just to remind you of the question.
:33:28. > :33:30.Is it fair to the families of victims murdered by the IRA
:33:31. > :33:38.But I'm afraid peacemaking is often not fair.
:33:39. > :33:41.It's an incredibly messy business, making peace.
:33:42. > :33:45.And one of the things that is so morally complicated
:33:46. > :33:49.is that sometimes justice, getting your just desserts,
:33:50. > :33:59.And so many peaces are messy and not entirely just around the world.
:34:00. > :34:02.Look, if they had killed my mum or my kids, I'd have found it
:34:03. > :34:08.But yet there is no future without forgiveness.
:34:09. > :34:11.There is no future for Northern Ireland.
:34:12. > :34:13.And if you go down this Norman Tebbit line,
:34:14. > :34:18.that he was a coward and there's nothing to be...
:34:19. > :34:24.Norman Tebbit would never have made peace in Northern Ireland.
:34:25. > :34:27.The idea that you can make peace by winning is nonsense.
:34:28. > :34:29.And furthermore, not only is it morally
:34:30. > :34:32.problematic to make peace, but you have to do it.
:34:33. > :34:35.We will have to do that also with the people who are putting
:34:36. > :34:45.If we want to have peace, we have to talk to the bad guys.
:34:46. > :34:48.Why do you say that Norman Tebbit would not ever have made peace
:34:49. > :34:53.Because his approach is that we have to somehow win, militarily win.
:34:54. > :35:02.The idea that it's just all about your truth,
:35:03. > :35:07.your way of looking at things, and you have to give up your truth.
:35:08. > :35:12.There's a wonderful poem by an Israeli poet
:35:13. > :35:19.And it is, "From the place where we are right,
:35:20. > :35:23.flowers will never grow in the spring", he says.
:35:24. > :35:25.And the whole idea is, if you completely stick
:35:26. > :35:29.to you being right, to your justice, to what you see, there
:35:30. > :35:33.You actually have to shift, and it's uncomfortable
:35:34. > :35:40.And that's why, yes, today, the day of his funeral,
:35:41. > :35:42.I will not be standing up and condemning him as
:35:43. > :35:48.Of course, I prefer his later work to his earlier work,
:35:49. > :35:51.but actually there would be no peace in Northern Ireland
:35:52. > :35:54.without Martin McGuinness and that has to be remembered.
:35:55. > :35:58.The man in spectacles in the middle there.
:35:59. > :36:02.The IRA created more mayhem in this country than Isis has ever done.
:36:03. > :36:06.Will we, in 25 years' time, be, if you like, praising
:36:07. > :36:17.I quite agree with the turbulent priest.
:36:18. > :36:21.We have always had to negotiate with nasty people.
:36:22. > :36:27.We had to do it with Jomo Kenyatta in Kenya and Makarios in Cyprus.
:36:28. > :36:35.I was there in both places at the time.
:36:36. > :36:40.You say there's no future without forgiveness.
:36:41. > :36:44.At what point do you forgive a terrorist?
:36:45. > :36:48.The question, it seems to me, is, do you want to have a future?
:36:49. > :36:51.Do you want to have a future that is peaceful, or do
:36:52. > :36:54.you want to go for this tit-for-tat, you go for them, they go
:36:55. > :36:58.At some point, that has to be, you have to break the cycle,
:36:59. > :37:04.And the way of doing that is not always clean and easy.
:37:05. > :37:06.So at what point do you forgive them?
:37:07. > :37:13.I'm uncomfortable with an attack on Norman Tebbit in this context.
:37:14. > :37:15.In this context, if only this context, Norman Tebbit
:37:16. > :37:20.He was blown up in the Brighton bombing.
:37:21. > :37:29.And his points, his main point, the reason why he never forgave
:37:30. > :37:31.Martin McGuinness was that Martin McGuinness never seemed
:37:32. > :37:35.to believe that he'd done anything that required forgiveness.
:37:36. > :37:39.And as I said when we began this discussion, I fully understand that
:37:40. > :37:43.peace requires compromise on both sides.
:37:44. > :37:47.I think it would have been a lot easier for the victims of the IRA
:37:48. > :37:49.if men like Martin McGuinness had admitted that maybe
:37:50. > :37:51.they'd put a foot wrong in killing so many people.
:37:52. > :38:00.We will change tack once more and have a question
:38:01. > :38:14.I think it's about the former Chancellor of the Exchequer.
:38:15. > :38:17.But we've got three MPs here, and they've all got other jobs
:38:18. > :38:20.of one sort or another that we'll find out about, I think.
:38:21. > :38:27.Well, you lead your party, and you're a Shadow Defence Secretary.
:38:28. > :38:30.Anyway, George Osborne became editor of the Evening Standard.
:38:31. > :38:33.He also makes 650 grand a year for advising Blackrock and all that.
:38:34. > :38:44.I think it should be a full-time job.
:38:45. > :38:49.I'm an Assembly member, not a member of Parliament,
:38:50. > :38:52.but it is a very privileged position to hold, and it's a very
:38:53. > :38:57.time-consuming job, particularly if you're a leader of a political
:38:58. > :38:59.party as well, perhaps even more time-consuming.
:39:00. > :39:03.People should be able to live quite well and comfortably
:39:04. > :39:09.And it seems to me that people who want more than one
:39:10. > :39:20.Brandon Lewis, where are you on your former Chancellor?
:39:21. > :39:23.Well, actually I think the fact that he was the Chancellor
:39:24. > :39:27.He was the Chancellor of the Exchequer, which is a very,
:39:28. > :39:31.very time-consuming job and a member of Parliament for his constituency.
:39:32. > :39:34.In fact, the time he took being Chancellor did not stop him
:39:35. > :39:37.being a good constituency MP, so much so that he was re-elected
:39:38. > :39:44.So I think in that sense, ministers, all of us,
:39:45. > :39:47.are doing a ministerial job as well as a constituency job.
:39:48. > :39:50.I think there's also the fact that Parliament's got a long history
:39:51. > :39:53.and track record of having great assets brought into Parliament
:39:54. > :39:55.by members of Parliament who are backbenchers,
:39:56. > :39:59.who have interests and jobs and work experience outside of Parliament.
:40:00. > :40:02.I think it would be a dangerous thing to have members of Parliament,
:40:03. > :40:04.particularly backbenchers, who are not able
:40:05. > :40:15.It's also right that there is a body that assesses
:40:16. > :40:18.whether somebody is doing something that is within the Ministerial Code,
:40:19. > :40:20.if you're a minister, and whether it's a conflict
:40:21. > :40:24.And that body is looking at all of this, including George Osborne.
:40:25. > :40:27.That body will look at George Osborne and it is a matter
:40:28. > :40:28.for the Parliamentary Standards Commission.
:40:29. > :40:31.You are a Tory minister, and the story going around,
:40:32. > :40:35.of course, is that he was sacked by Theresa May, rather
:40:36. > :40:38.peremptorily, from his post as Chancellor of the Exchequer.
:40:39. > :40:41.He has become editor of the London Evening Standard,
:40:42. > :40:45.from which point he will wage a campaign against Theresa May
:40:46. > :40:49.and against what the Government is doing in the Brexit negotiations.
:40:50. > :40:54.Is that a legitimate thing for him to do as an MP from the backbenches?
:40:55. > :40:56.I'm not going to tell a free press of any description
:40:57. > :41:04.It's up to us as a government to do our job to the best of our ability,
:41:05. > :41:07.to deliver for the country, and to answer for that,
:41:08. > :41:09.whoever happens to be editor of any given newspaper.
:41:10. > :41:12.The simple question around whether a member of Parliament
:41:13. > :41:15.as a backbench MP can do another job, if that wasn't the case
:41:16. > :41:18.we wouldn't be able to have ministers who are members
:41:19. > :41:22.A minister is different to a job outside the institution, isn't it?
:41:23. > :41:24.I think most people would take the view, understandably,
:41:25. > :41:26.that being Chancellor is as much a full-time job as editing
:41:27. > :41:30.a newspaper or having a consultancy job with somebody.
:41:31. > :41:33.What about being the fourth Shadow Defence Secretary in a year?
:41:34. > :41:38.Can you cope with being an MP and with the Labour Party
:41:39. > :41:46.The important part is that when you are an MP you have duties
:41:47. > :41:48.in Parliament and you have duties for your constituency.
:41:49. > :41:52.And part and parcel of being an MP is that you do either
:41:53. > :41:56.serve on the front bench, or you may be a backbencher.
:41:57. > :41:59.There are backbenchers who work extremely hard because we have
:42:00. > :42:02.committees who scrutinise what the front bench do.
:42:03. > :42:05.So that is an integral part of what you are doing.
:42:06. > :42:10.I think it's incumbent on every single MP to take it very seriously
:42:11. > :42:16.I think that alone is very important.
:42:17. > :42:19.But then we come onto the issue of conflict of interest,
:42:20. > :42:22.and I do think there is a real issue about being editor of a London-based
:42:23. > :42:28.newspaper when you are trying to represent a Cheshire constituency.
:42:29. > :42:30.I just don't think that when he talks about the interests
:42:31. > :42:34.of Londoners and being more London than a Londoner and so forth,
:42:35. > :42:37.I just don't think that's what the people of Tatton
:42:38. > :42:44.I have a couple of friends who are Conservative
:42:45. > :42:47.MPs, and I don't think they are paid enough.
:42:48. > :42:53.The chief executive of Anglesey County Council
:42:54. > :42:57.and Gwent County Council are paid about three times more than an MP.
:42:58. > :42:58.And I bet the Chancellor of Bangor University
:42:59. > :43:04.They do it for four years and might lose their job at the next election,
:43:05. > :43:06.so why shouldn't talent be encouraged to come in?
:43:07. > :43:09.You get some really good barristers, some army officers go into politics.
:43:10. > :43:13.It's a lot of money, I agree, but if you can
:43:14. > :43:18.earn more in the City, why don't you do that?
:43:19. > :43:20.Parliament needs talent and to attract talent in.
:43:21. > :43:23.So you think this is synthetic outrage about George Osborne?
:43:24. > :43:30.Surely being an MP should be an absolute privilege,
:43:31. > :43:35.and he should be serving the people of Tatton in all his interests.
:43:36. > :43:37.Obviously it is a conflict of interest when his seat
:43:38. > :43:46.And to say MPs aren't paid enough is an absolute slap in the face
:43:47. > :43:56.As with any job, the question of whether you can have
:43:57. > :43:59.another job while doing your job is a matter for your employer.
:44:00. > :44:01.And George Osborne's employers in this context
:44:02. > :44:08.If he was the editor of a national newspaper,
:44:09. > :44:10.the Daily Mirror - unlikely, but if he was -
:44:11. > :44:12.perhaps the voters of Tatton would think,
:44:13. > :44:14."This is great for Tatton that our MP
:44:15. > :44:17."is the editor of the Daily Mirror and he will look out
:44:18. > :44:20."for our interests and promote us across the nation".
:44:21. > :44:24.I think the people of Tatton will be inclined to wonder why a man whose
:44:25. > :44:27.own new employer has described him as London through and through
:44:28. > :44:34.I think they would be looking forward to having Martin Bell back.
:44:35. > :44:42.He had to sort Tatton out after Neil Hamilton.
:44:43. > :44:48.Yet again, poor old Tatton is getting a bad deal. The boundaries
:44:49. > :44:51.are changing in Tatton this time around, aren't they? The Boundary
:44:52. > :45:02.Commission... At the moment the draft is that it would change, yes.
:45:03. > :45:03.This George Osborne thing absolutely stinks.
:45:04. > :45:10.APPLAUSE. And it's not just because he can't
:45:11. > :45:14.get by on the ?650,000 that he's given by Blackrock and how that'll
:45:15. > :45:22.work with him editing the City pages of a newspaper. That's not the
:45:23. > :45:25.problem. The northern powerhouse means Hampstead to him. Do you know
:45:26. > :45:30.what the problem is - we all fear that too much power in this country
:45:31. > :45:37.is in too few people's hands. The idea that he is an MP and runs a
:45:38. > :45:40.newspaper and is going to be the Archbishop of Canterbury and
:45:41. > :45:45.everything, whatever it is, it just stinks. The job of a newspaper - one
:45:46. > :45:49.more thing - the job of a newspaper is to keep these politicians honest.
:45:50. > :45:53.That's one of the jobs of a newspaper and the idea that an MP
:45:54. > :45:57.and all its chums now are running an important newspaper in London,
:45:58. > :45:58.everybody thinks it stinks and it does.
:45:59. > :46:07.OK. APPLAUSE.
:46:08. > :46:15.Priests can be Guardian columnists can they without any conflict...
:46:16. > :46:18.With God? There is a real conflict of interest actually, it's really
:46:19. > :46:21.hard to do, yes because you have to be nasty as a columnist, you have to
:46:22. > :46:26.be nice as a priest. That's the conflict. James Cook, your question?
:46:27. > :46:28.Should Wales have a referendum like Scotland now that we are leaving the
:46:29. > :46:34.EU? APPLAUSE.
:46:35. > :46:39.Yes, plawz from two or three hands -- applause. Should Wales have a
:46:40. > :46:44.referendum like Scotland? Nia Griffith, what do you think? We in
:46:45. > :46:47.Wales are passionate and proud to be Welsh and you sometimes see that on
:46:48. > :46:53.the rugby field. Results aren't always what we desire though. But I
:46:54. > :46:59.do think we need to listen carefully to the people of e-Wales. 94% of the
:47:00. > :47:02.people have repeatedly shown in poll after poll that actually, whilst
:47:03. > :47:06.being very proud to be Welsh, we are not actually in the least bit
:47:07. > :47:11.interested in an independent Wales. There is actually no call for that
:47:12. > :47:14.in Wales. It's not what people on the doorstep tell me, it's not what
:47:15. > :47:17.people in the shopping centres tell me. There are far more important
:47:18. > :47:29.issues that they want to focus on. APPLAUSE.
:47:30. > :47:33.Your First Minister Carwyn Jones said people in Wales are going to
:47:34. > :47:37.start saying the Government are listening to the Scots. We need to
:47:38. > :47:42.be like them, it's a dangerous path for the UK if they don't listen to
:47:43. > :47:45.Wales? I think that we in Wales - it's very important we have our
:47:46. > :47:48.voice and our First Minister speaks up for us but I don't agree with the
:47:49. > :47:52.whered of having another referendum many Scotland either. I think this
:47:53. > :47:57.is a distraction by Nicola Sturgeon, I think when she can't even tell the
:47:58. > :48:01.people what will happen after Brexit, she can't even tell them
:48:02. > :48:04.whether she could or would take Scotland back into the European
:48:05. > :48:07.Union or even what currency they would have, I think there's exactly
:48:08. > :48:10.the same problem for people in Scotland. They are being given an
:48:11. > :48:14.opportunity to make a decision when they don't even have the facts.
:48:15. > :48:18.Leanne, should Wales have a referendum like Scotland? With the
:48:19. > :48:22.reason that there is going to be a referendum in Scotland, is because
:48:23. > :48:25.Scotland voted to remain in the European Union and the Prime
:48:26. > :48:30.Minister is ploughing ahead with a hard Brexit against their will after
:48:31. > :48:35.promising to consult and failing to. So there's been a material change of
:48:36. > :48:40.circumstances in Scotland. Let's deal with Wales. If Scotland becomes
:48:41. > :48:43.independent, the UK will no longer exist and I believe in
:48:44. > :48:48.self-determination. I believe decisions about Wales should be made
:48:49. > :48:55.in Wales. Including that decision about our own future. There could be
:48:56. > :49:03.very big changes. The tectonic plagues of UK politics are shifting
:49:04. > :49:07.and does it mean for Wales? If Scotland becomes independent, the UK
:49:08. > :49:11.won't exist, we'll be subsumed in some kind of England and Wales
:49:12. > :49:14.entity, how will our voice be heard then when we are already ignored by
:49:15. > :49:19.the Westminster Parliament? I think there should be a multi-option
:49:20. > :49:24.referendum, independence should be included in that, but it should also
:49:25. > :49:29.enable people, the 43% of people in Wales who want more powers,
:49:30. > :49:32.including powers over our economy, so that we can address some of the
:49:33. > :49:35.problems that we are facing, then those people should have their say
:49:36. > :49:39.as well. Leanne, just to make it clear, when
:49:40. > :49:45.do you want... Self-determination. I get that. When do you want it? Do
:49:46. > :49:49.you think it should happen before Brexit negotiations? We are in a
:49:50. > :49:53.different place. We are on a different stage on our journey, so
:49:54. > :49:57.we are not going to have our referendum at the same time as
:49:58. > :50:01.Scotland. If Scotland leaves, then that will constitute a material
:50:02. > :50:06.change of circumstances for Wales. OK. I believe it's people here in
:50:07. > :50:14.Wales who should decide on our own future. Hugh Rifkind? I am Scottish,
:50:15. > :50:19.as people will be able to tell from my board impenetrable accent and I'm
:50:20. > :50:24.a unionist, I believe that Scotland should be part of the United
:50:25. > :50:28.Kingdom. What worries me more than Scottish Nationalists or indeed
:50:29. > :50:36.Welsh nationalists is the tone set by the Conservative Government... It
:50:37. > :50:41.is nationalists. In a sense if only they were, they sound like Welsh
:50:42. > :50:44.nationalists. After the Scottish referendum, I think David Cameron's
:50:45. > :50:48.Government in campaigning for the next general election, made a
:50:49. > :50:52.horrendous disgraceful decision to attack Labour on the basis that
:50:53. > :50:56.Labour might go into coalition with parties in Scotland, as if this
:50:57. > :51:01.would be somehow shameful, as if we weren't a union where this thing
:51:02. > :51:06.could happen. I think he was happy to alienate Scots in a quest for
:51:07. > :51:11.English votes and I think there is a tone even now with the government in
:51:12. > :51:16.Westminster where they call themselves unionists, they do not
:51:17. > :51:20.behave like unionists. Being a unionist involves respecting the
:51:21. > :51:24.nations of this country. You, Sir, in the blue checked shirt? We are
:51:25. > :51:30.talking about Wales and Scotland having their voice, but what about
:51:31. > :51:33.England? Wales, Scotland, have an Assembly or the Parliament, the
:51:34. > :51:39.English have nothing. Westminster. They've got Westminster. So do you.
:51:40. > :51:43.Well, if you listen to the debates that take place in Westminster,
:51:44. > :51:45.Wales doesn't get too much of a mention, it's mostly about matters
:51:46. > :51:50.pertaining to England. That's the point. I mean, I'm in favour of an
:51:51. > :51:56.English Parliament but they do have Westminster. All right. Brandon? I
:51:57. > :52:00.actually do think the discussion about a referendum in Scotland is a
:52:01. > :52:03.distraction in the sense that they had a referendum just a short while
:52:04. > :52:07.ago and the vote from that was clear. I think if you look at Wales,
:52:08. > :52:10.and I am a Conservative and unionist, I do believe we are
:52:11. > :52:14.stronger, and this is the key thing, I think we are stronger together in
:52:15. > :52:17.what we can do for our economies and security across the UK. But
:52:18. > :52:22.actually, not just taking the point around the polls here in Wales, but
:52:23. > :52:29.also looking at what is happening. The Welsh Act does devolve more
:52:30. > :52:34.powers to Wales. We patriot to the EU, there'll be an opportunity to
:52:35. > :52:38.look at how we devolve even more powers in out parts of the UK. There
:52:39. > :52:43.is an opportunity there and we are ultimately stronger together. It's a
:52:44. > :52:47.precious union. The Wales Bill was a massive missed opportunity. We have
:52:48. > :52:50.got 23% of people living in poverty here in Wales, how is that union
:52:51. > :52:57.good for Wales? APPLAUSE.
:52:58. > :53:01.If you think about the question we are talking about - Wales having a
:53:02. > :53:07.referendum - we have talked about several times this evening, Wales
:53:08. > :53:11.voted to leave the EU and we are delivering on Brexit and getting the
:53:12. > :53:19.right deal for Brexit. The man in the blue pullover? The third man on
:53:20. > :53:23.the back row wearing a jacket with blue. I love being a student here in
:53:24. > :53:27.Wales and I think it would be a shame if they left the union. I
:53:28. > :53:31.think they'd really struggle as well. Do you think there should be a
:53:32. > :53:38.vote on it? It's up to them isn't it. The man in spectacles? The only
:53:39. > :53:43.thing I would say is, people in Wales decided to leave the EU to
:53:44. > :53:47.take power into their own hands. I don't think that automatically means
:53:48. > :53:52.that we want an independence vote because, whether you like it or not,
:53:53. > :53:57.our vote goes to Westminster, that's just how our power system works.
:53:58. > :54:03.Giles Fraser, please? Here is the contradiction I think. Leanne's
:54:04. > :54:07.position - I'm a Brexiter because I wanted power repatriated from
:54:08. > :54:11.Brussels. If I was Welsh, I would want power repatriated from London.
:54:12. > :54:15.That's what I would want as well. APPLAUSE.
:54:16. > :54:21.I completely understand those people who want to have power much closer
:54:22. > :54:27.to where they live and to the people that they know and that's why - it's
:54:28. > :54:30.none of my business, but if the Welsh decided that they wanted to be
:54:31. > :54:33.an independent country, that's for the Welsh to decide and I'd
:54:34. > :54:38.understand why they did it. The woman in white? You have already
:54:39. > :54:42.commented Wales will struggle greatly when it leaves Europe
:54:43. > :54:46.financially. How do you think the country would cope if it left
:54:47. > :54:51.England as well? Are you worried about that? You only have to look at
:54:52. > :54:55.the fact that Wales has a fiscal deficit currently of just under 25%
:54:56. > :54:59.compared to the UK deficit of 5%, that says a lot about Wales's
:55:00. > :55:07.position outside of the UK. I don't want to get stuck into the business
:55:08. > :55:11.of how Wales might vote but... Can I make this point. Very quickly? I
:55:12. > :55:15.don't think many would disagree that there is a huge amount of potential
:55:16. > :55:19.in this country that is unlocked. The question that I would have to
:55:20. > :55:23.ask is, how do we best unlock that potential? Now, I think that we can
:55:24. > :55:28.do much more by doing more for ourselves. But if there's
:55:29. > :55:35.adown-onist answer to this, please let me know what it is because all I
:55:36. > :55:40.see is that Wales, our economy, has too many challenges, 23% of people
:55:41. > :55:47.are living in poverty and we are not getting any better in the system
:55:48. > :55:51.that we are in. How would Wales survive with the money it currently
:55:52. > :55:55.gets... At least if we had a plan to try and get there, we could make
:55:56. > :56:05.those improvements to our economy. I think... The institutions... Let Nia
:56:06. > :56:09.answer you? I think Leanne is living in a fantasy world.
:56:10. > :56:13.APPLAUSE. Of course people want to be involved
:56:14. > :56:18.in decision-making and what we have to do is to try to get the decisions
:56:19. > :56:21.made at the right level. Some things it's appropriate to have at UK
:56:22. > :56:26.level, other things it's appropriate to have at a Wales or Scotland level
:56:27. > :56:31.or, at a local authority level, different levels of councils. All
:56:32. > :56:35.right. How do we... Our time is up. That's a long discussion we can't
:56:36. > :56:40.get into. We can get into this question with yes or no answers from
:56:41. > :56:43.John Brook, please? Should the Prime Minister call a general election
:56:44. > :56:48.now? Should the Prime Minister call a general election now and you can
:56:49. > :56:54.say yes or no? Just speak, you can't be silent? Yes and no. Yes,
:56:55. > :57:00.definitely. An election for you? Giles? No. Yes. The Prime Minister's
:57:01. > :57:04.rightly focussed on delivering a very important piece of work,
:57:05. > :57:07.getting Brexit done, two years of negotiations, we have got to get
:57:08. > :57:09.that work done for the best interests of the country, we
:57:10. > :57:13.shouldn't be distracted by referendums or general elections.
:57:14. > :57:17.John Brook? Unless she called an election now, she'd have the biggest
:57:18. > :57:20.majority in history. You speak as a Conservative? We have to do what is
:57:21. > :57:24.right for the country before we think about what others might do for
:57:25. > :57:28.the party. We are focussed on what she needs for the country. I'm a
:57:29. > :57:30.lone voice because I live in Anglesey and voted Conservative, but
:57:31. > :57:35.there we are. Fine. That is it. Our hour is up.
:57:36. > :57:38.Thank you very much indeed. A reminder, there is a special
:57:39. > :57:42.Question Time from Birmingham next Monday at 8. 30, Britain after
:57:43. > :57:45.Brexit. Our audience will be questioning politicians on both
:57:46. > :57:48.sides of the divide on that, what happens after the triggering of
:57:49. > :57:55.Article 50. Next Thursday's Question Time is from Carlisle with the Ukip
:57:56. > :58:01.leader Paul Nuttall and the Unite Trade Union leader Len McCluskey
:58:02. > :58:07.among our panelists. LAUGHTER. I thought you might look
:58:08. > :58:12.forward to that! The week after that we are in Gillingham. Birmingham
:58:13. > :58:15.Monday, Carlisle Thursday, Gillingham the Thursday after on 6th
:58:16. > :58:20.April. Go to the website, the address is on the screen. If you are
:58:21. > :58:23.listening on Radio 5 Live, this debate goes on until the early hours
:58:24. > :58:28.of the morning on Question Time extra time. My thanks to the panel
:58:29. > :58:32.and all of you who came to Bangor to take part in tonight's programme.
:58:33. > :58:36.Until next Monday, from Question Time, good night.