Britain after Brexit

:00:09. > :00:16.Well, at 20 minutes to five, we can now say the decision taken in 1975

:00:17. > :00:23.by this country to join the Common market has been reversed by this

:00:24. > :00:24.referendum, to leave the EU. The British people have spoken and the

:00:25. > :00:26.answer is, we're out. On Wednesday, we give formal notice

:00:27. > :00:30.to the EU that we're leaving ? with two years

:00:31. > :00:32.to negotiate the terms. Our panel is divided between those

:00:33. > :00:59.who wanted to Leave or Remain. The Secretary of State for Exiting

:01:00. > :01:01.the EU, the man leading the negotiations on behalf

:01:02. > :01:03.of the Government, David Davis. Labour's Shadow Secretary of State

:01:04. > :01:06.for Brexit, Keir Starmer. The former Deputy Prime Minister

:01:07. > :01:08.in the Coalition, when he was Leader of the Liberal Democrats,

:01:09. > :01:15.Nick Clegg. The Deputy Chair of Ukip

:01:16. > :01:18.who was part of the official Vote Leave campaign,

:01:19. > :01:19.Suzanne Evans. The Times columnist

:01:20. > :01:21.Melanie Phillips. And the former First Minister

:01:22. > :01:23.of Scotland, the SNP's International Affairs spokesman

:01:24. > :01:29.at Westminster, Alex Salmond. Our audience here in Birmingham

:01:30. > :01:42.is divided pretty much like the country itself

:01:43. > :01:50.was in June, 48-52. If you want to join the debate

:01:51. > :02:13.from home, we're on Facebook, And if you push the red button, you

:02:14. > :02:16.will see what people are texting. The first question to get started

:02:17. > :02:19.from Rachel Harbour. Should we expect to pay a large

:02:20. > :02:29.Brexit payment to the EU A figure of 50 billion has been put

:02:30. > :02:35.on it. David Davis, should we expect to pay a large Brexit payment, first

:02:36. > :02:39.question, before you negotiate? I don't know about 50 billion, I've

:02:40. > :02:43.seen 40, 50, 60 and no explanation for any of them. The Prime Minister

:02:44. > :02:50.said we are coming to the end of the time when we are paying enormous

:02:51. > :02:53.sums to the European Union. Of course we will meet our

:02:54. > :02:57.international obligations but we also expect our rights to be

:02:58. > :03:01.respected. I don't think we are going to be seen that kind of money

:03:02. > :03:08.change hands. Not that sort of money but some sort of money? Look, we

:03:09. > :03:10.have said before that we will meet our international obligations,

:03:11. > :03:14.whatever that turns out to be but that is nothing like what we are

:03:15. > :03:18.talking about. Indeed, the House of Lords committee on this subject

:03:19. > :03:23.reckoned that was zero a few weeks ago. So you are thinking you might

:03:24. > :03:27.pay zero? We will wait and see. I'm not going to do the negotiation on

:03:28. > :03:30.this programme, David, attractive as that might be and it might even hold

:03:31. > :03:34.the ratings up but the simple truth is, we are yet to engage in

:03:35. > :03:39.negotiation and when I go in a few weeks' time, no doubt I will hear

:03:40. > :03:47.what they think. The lead negotiator says this has to be sorted before

:03:48. > :03:50.other talks can start and do you agree with that? We also take the

:03:51. > :03:54.view that Article 50, the law, in the treaty, says that we resolve the

:03:55. > :03:59.departure arrangements taking into account the ongoing relationship.

:04:00. > :04:11.That means the ongoing relationship as do exist. Alex Salmond? I'm glad

:04:12. > :04:14.David is calling the negotiator Michel which is the only positive

:04:15. > :04:20.thing I can see in the negotiations to date. Should we expect to have a

:04:21. > :04:23.bill like that? The answer is yes and the reason is all the

:04:24. > :04:26.negotiating cards are in the hands of the European Union. We are going

:04:27. > :04:31.into a time-limited Brexit of two years and if there is no deal, then

:04:32. > :04:35.you go out on World Trade Organisation terms which despite

:04:36. > :04:37.what the Prime Minister says, would be totally disastrous, if you go

:04:38. > :04:42.into negotiations where the cards are in the other person's and,

:04:43. > :04:47.whatever you call them, you end up paying the bill. One thing I would

:04:48. > :04:52.say, we should expect to see the 50 billion paid into the EU long before

:04:53. > :04:53.we ever see the 350 million for the National Health Service that was

:04:54. > :05:08.promised by the Brexit camp. Melanie Phillips? We should

:05:09. > :05:12.definitely meet our international obligations but it's a question of

:05:13. > :05:17.what they are. Lawyers cannot agree about this as far as I can see. It

:05:18. > :05:23.is interesting that he is making this kind of pre-requisite for the

:05:24. > :05:25.negotiations to start from it is almost like we are getting into a

:05:26. > :05:30.situation where we have to negotiate about the negotiations before we can

:05:31. > :05:33.start the negotiations. Do you think he means you have to agree that bit

:05:34. > :05:37.of money before we talk about anything else because there is the

:05:38. > :05:42.old thing they always say, nothing is agreed until everything is agreed

:05:43. > :05:47.finally? Indeed, the negotiation has not started yet, Michel Barnier has

:05:48. > :05:52.made a very aggressive pitch and I see it as the opening negotiating

:05:53. > :05:58.pitch and it is up to us to wear him down. David Davis mentioned the

:05:59. > :06:01.House of Lords report. It was quite interesting, although as I say,

:06:02. > :06:07.lawyers do disagree but that said, if there is no deal, then bearing

:06:08. > :06:12.turbot eight of the relevant statutes, relevant treaty law is

:06:13. > :06:17.that if there is no deal, then we don't have to pay anything at all.

:06:18. > :06:21.Maybe that is why Michel Barnier is so keen to get this sorted

:06:22. > :06:28.straightaway. So we could have no deal and walk out and say... Go

:06:29. > :06:32.away? Lawyers disagree... Do you agree? I've no idea if it is the

:06:33. > :06:36.case or not but it seems to me, as in so many of these things in

:06:37. > :06:42.relation to Brexit, we actually have a strong card to play. Anyone who

:06:43. > :06:45.seems so overanxious, as Michel Barnier does, to get this done and

:06:46. > :06:49.dusted so quickly, is obviously quite nervous about his position.

:06:50. > :06:54.Rachel, what do you think? Are you worried about a big bill? I have

:06:55. > :06:57.some reservations because of the economy especially, that is the one

:06:58. > :07:03.thing I'm concerned about and I would like to see it go forward.

:07:04. > :07:08.Both members of my family work in the car industry and I'm concerned

:07:09. > :07:12.about the future of the industry. And the person in purple up there

:07:13. > :07:16.and then I will come to you, what is your view? I don't want to see our

:07:17. > :07:20.country get bullied into paying some money to the EU. I don't think it is

:07:21. > :07:23.fair. It is just the playground bully taking our lunch money and I

:07:24. > :07:30.don't think we should do it. APPLAUSE

:07:31. > :07:35.Nick Clegg, are we being bullied at the opening stage of this affair? Of

:07:36. > :07:38.course we are going to have to pay money, if he ran up a tab behind the

:07:39. > :07:45.bar for years and years and you haven't paid when you want to leave,

:07:46. > :07:49.you settle up. The EU has been very clear, they are not going to ask the

:07:50. > :07:53.UK for a single penny after we have left. They are simply going to ask

:07:54. > :07:57.us to settle the tab before we leave. It would be really odd for

:07:58. > :08:01.us, and I have to say to David Davis and the government am extremely

:08:02. > :08:03.unwise of the government on top of all the other unrealistic

:08:04. > :08:07.expectations they have already raised about this negotiation, that

:08:08. > :08:10.it's all going to be done and dusted in two years, it won't be, that

:08:11. > :08:18.there will be a cornucopia, a paradise of new trade deals with the

:08:19. > :08:21.rest of the world in 18 months, they won't. That we will have the same

:08:22. > :08:24.benefits of the single market even as we leave it. This week is when

:08:25. > :08:26.things change, when we stop talking to ourselves, lots of wishful

:08:27. > :08:28.thinking and reality bites. We are going to have to negotiate with 27

:08:29. > :08:31.other governments and parliaments and when you quit a club of which we

:08:32. > :08:34.have been a member for over 40 years, of course you settle up

:08:35. > :08:38.before you leave. It is what we do in the rest of our lives and we

:08:39. > :08:41.should do it now and we shouldn't pretend otherwise because all we

:08:42. > :08:45.will do by doing that if it will make you feel angry and disappointed

:08:46. > :08:53.when it doesn't happen. But do you anticipate as the president of the

:08:54. > :08:56.EU commission, Jean-Claude Juncker said, that the Bill will be, to put

:08:57. > :08:59.it a bit crudely, very hefty? Are you expecting 50 billion? I don't

:09:00. > :09:04.know the numbers but my prediction is this summer, David Davis and his

:09:05. > :09:08.friend Michel will agree not to put a number on it but they will agree a

:09:09. > :09:11.series of principles on how to decide the final bill and the final

:09:12. > :09:15.number probably won't be decided until the very end. That is what I

:09:16. > :09:19.think will happen but please let's not delude ourselves. You can't

:09:20. > :09:24.leave a club without paying... The commitment you have made other

:09:25. > :09:31.member. If I may, this is not a club... APPLAUSE

:09:32. > :09:35.It is often, when you are looking at a negotiating bid, it is often

:09:36. > :09:39.insightful to spin it around and look at it from the other side.

:09:40. > :09:43.Imagine if instead of being huge donor, a sizeable donor to the

:09:44. > :09:47.European Union, we were a beneficiary, instead of putting in

:09:48. > :09:52.10 billion per year, we received let's say 3 billion per year back

:09:53. > :09:57.and then we left, do you think you would insist on paying us for the

:09:58. > :10:03.next five years? We are a donor. APPLAUSE

:10:04. > :10:06.It is not a golf club. David, you can't pretend we are something we

:10:07. > :10:10.are not, we are a major economy in the European Union and we've paid

:10:11. > :10:13.money into it and made a number of commitment and pledges and promises

:10:14. > :10:16.in the European Union and all they are asking, if I understand it, is

:10:17. > :10:19.to say that we settle up before we leave and they won't ask for a penny

:10:20. > :10:29.more. We shouldn't fight this battle if we won't win. The man there,

:10:30. > :10:31.please, sir. I think we should meet our international obligations but I

:10:32. > :10:34.think the country is facing huge debt, public services are suffering

:10:35. > :10:39.and 50 billion is too much to pay. Do you agree with him, Suzanne

:10:40. > :10:47.Evans? Absolutely, we should not be paying them a penny. APPLAUSE

:10:48. > :10:50.I don't know what kind of weird clubs you are a member of, Nick, but

:10:51. > :10:55.you only have to settle the bill for a club if you are in debt to that

:10:56. > :10:59.club and we are not in debt. We should be in credit. Since we joined

:11:00. > :11:04.the European Union, we have given them over ?500 billion of our money.

:11:05. > :11:07.They have used that money to invest in all kinds of swanky new buildings

:11:08. > :11:13.which have no doubt gone up in value. I think they probably owe us.

:11:14. > :11:16.I think this country has got about ?9 billion invested in the European

:11:17. > :11:20.investment bank. I think that would more than adequately settle any

:11:21. > :11:23.bills, we should be getting that money back and Rachel, if I can come

:11:24. > :11:25.back to you as you ask the original question, you are understandably

:11:26. > :11:29.worried about your family and the car industry but let me tell you,

:11:30. > :11:33.since the Brexit vote, we know that car production in this country is at

:11:34. > :11:40.a 17 year high and that has got a lot to do with how manufacturing at

:11:41. > :11:42.exporting is booming since the Brexit vote. The future is very

:11:43. > :11:45.bright, very positive and if anything, the EU will be looking to

:11:46. > :11:53.us and wanting us to bail them out, not the other way around. APPLAUSE

:11:54. > :11:56.And let's just stick for a moment with the payment which is the 50

:11:57. > :12:00.billion or whatever it is we have to pay supposedly before we start

:12:01. > :12:05.negotiating, Keir Starmer, what is the latest view, Labour has spelt

:12:06. > :12:08.out its position to some extent. Whichever way you voted in the room,

:12:09. > :12:11.we need these negotiations to succeed, we all need them to succeed

:12:12. > :12:15.because it is about the future of our country. And the worst possible

:12:16. > :12:20.thing that could happen is that we have a big row about a big sum of

:12:21. > :12:23.money at the start before we get to the real nitty-gritty of the

:12:24. > :12:27.negotiations. I say that we shouldn't be bandying figures

:12:28. > :12:30.around. We should agree that there will be principles which will decide

:12:31. > :12:33.how much it is once they are agreed, of course we must honour our

:12:34. > :12:37.obligations and anyone who says otherwise just needs to think about

:12:38. > :12:43.the future. We want a comprehensive free trade agreement with the EU,

:12:44. > :12:47.and whether we are going to get that if we are breaching the rules as we

:12:48. > :12:50.leave... That is what Michel Barnier saying he wants. The government

:12:51. > :12:55.wants free trade agreements with other countries across the world. If

:12:56. > :12:59.we are going to be taken seriously in future negotiations, for the

:13:00. > :13:02.future of our country, we cannot do that in breach of obligations that

:13:03. > :13:06.we have already got. I'm not committing to a figure. I think

:13:07. > :13:09.there's a lot to be said for reducing the figure. Obviously, we

:13:10. > :13:15.should keep it as low as possible but once we have agreed the

:13:16. > :13:17.principal, of course we are a country that honours our obligations

:13:18. > :13:20.because if we don't do that, no country in the future is going to

:13:21. > :13:29.want to deal with us, the worst outcome for all of us. APPLAUSE

:13:30. > :13:30.Let's go on to the negotiations themselves. Matthew Martin, can we

:13:31. > :13:33.have your question? Is Theresa May right to say that no

:13:34. > :13:43.deal is better than a bad deal ahead Is Theresa May right to say that no

:13:44. > :13:47.deal is better than a bad deal before things start, Nick Clegg? I

:13:48. > :13:53.actually think no deal is about the worst possible deal you could

:13:54. > :13:59.imagine. And no one should sort of soft soap this. If you had no deal,

:14:00. > :14:03.the day after no deal, we would fall into a very peculiar economic and

:14:04. > :14:08.legal limbo. You wouldn't be able to transport nuclear fuel to the UK.

:14:09. > :14:12.You would have huge queues at Dover. We would have major questions about

:14:13. > :14:17.how our financial system works because of the legal vacuum into

:14:18. > :14:22.which we would topple. I think the way in which people are trying to

:14:23. > :14:26.almost make it sound like a sort of cuddly alternative, and dare I say,

:14:27. > :14:28.I think there are lots of people on the right-wing of the Conservative

:14:29. > :14:31.Party and obviously Ukip you actively want this which is why they

:14:32. > :14:36.want a great big spat on money in the early stages of the negotiation

:14:37. > :14:39.because that is the perfect alibi to blow the whole thing... Do you not

:14:40. > :14:43.think a bad deal would be one that would have to be accepted rather

:14:44. > :14:47.than having no deal and just leaving? What I'm saying is that one

:14:48. > :14:51.should think a no deal option is a satisfactory one for an economy the

:14:52. > :14:58.size of ours. It is a very bad thing to fall off a cliff edge into

:14:59. > :15:01.complete legal unknown, given the complexity of the economy. Rachel

:15:02. > :15:05.next to you earlier said she was worried about the car industry. The

:15:06. > :15:08.car industry will grind to a halt Intel's exports to the rest of the

:15:09. > :15:12.European Union if we did not have a deal. -- in terms of export. Alex

:15:13. > :15:19.Salmond, what did you make of what Theresa May said?

:15:20. > :15:28.It's non-sensical. World Trade Organisation terms, which would mean

:15:29. > :15:32.a 30% tariff of Scottish beef and Scotch salmon going into the single

:15:33. > :15:45.market, for example, lesser tariffs on manufacturing goods, but a severe

:15:46. > :15:49.economic shock. The Treasury estimated it at 50 billion a year as

:15:50. > :15:56.a drop in taxation revenues across the UK. We've been arguing of a

:15:57. > :16:01.one-off payment of ?60 billion to the EU, that's a big sum, but it's

:16:02. > :16:04.nothing like 50 billion a year tax loss, which was the Treasury

:16:05. > :16:10.estimate seen by the Cabinet, but not by the rest of us and reported

:16:11. > :16:15.in Melanie Phillips' newspaper several months ago. Make no mistake,

:16:16. > :16:19.no deal, WTO terms is the worst deal of all. That's exactly why the

:16:20. > :16:24.European Union has the upper hand in negotiations. Because whatever David

:16:25. > :16:27.tells you, he'll be desperate to avoid that circumstance. In avoiding

:16:28. > :16:30.that circumstance, the UK Government will make concessions not only in

:16:31. > :16:35.the bills to be paid, but on immigration, and on other matters to

:16:36. > :16:40.avoid that going off the cliff edge, as the Prime Minister once described

:16:41. > :16:44.it. Her view of a bad deal is better than no deal is simply non-sensical

:16:45. > :16:54.and nobody across this continent believe it's. OK. You've had your

:16:55. > :16:58.card marked David Davis. Yes, well, firstly before I answer the

:16:59. > :17:03.question, let's say this: No deal is not what we're playing for. I know

:17:04. > :17:07.that. That's why you'll make concessions. Be fair to the

:17:08. > :17:12.questioner, the quotation is "no deal is better than a bad deal". The

:17:13. > :17:18.point I want to make very plainly is what we're after is a good deal. The

:17:19. > :17:26.response on no deal is better than a bad deal was after if you remember,

:17:27. > :17:29.a number of people, in the immediate aftermath, the emotional aftermath

:17:30. > :17:32.of the referendum, punishment deals and punishing the United Kingdom, of

:17:33. > :17:39.course, no deal is better than that. In terms of what no deal is, I too

:17:40. > :17:45.listen to Michel Barnier's comments and Nick repeated them on nuclear

:17:46. > :17:48.fuel, I'm afraid that's not right. Overall authority on nuclear fuel is

:17:49. > :17:53.international energy authority. What he said was we couldn't import or

:17:54. > :17:58.export Newham leer fuel, it won't be -- nuclear fuel, it won't be true.

:17:59. > :18:04.The other issues on queues at Dover, we have a huge contingency

:18:05. > :18:08.plannerised across -- plan exercised across all these issues. No deal is

:18:09. > :18:12.not as easy as some would have you believe, but it's a lot better than

:18:13. > :18:19.Nick and Alec would tell you, I'm afraid. How do you know? Because

:18:20. > :18:23.we've done work on exactly that. You said to Parliament a week ago you

:18:24. > :18:28.haven't worked out how much it's going to be. We have spent nine

:18:29. > :18:33.months putting together contingency plans - For queues in Dover? Not

:18:34. > :18:37.because we don't expect it to happen but because a Government plans for

:18:38. > :18:43.every possible outcome. Can you describe for us - That's what we've

:18:44. > :18:47.done. Can you describe what no deal would mean then, since you've kept

:18:48. > :18:55.it from us up till now. Nobody's kept anything from anybody. It's not

:18:56. > :18:58.what we want, our aim is a comprehensive Free Trade Agreement.

:18:59. > :19:02.That's what we're after. That is better than anything else. But no

:19:03. > :19:06.deal is not as harmful as you say. Let's hear from one or two members

:19:07. > :19:11.of the audience on this point. The woman there in red, yes. You've

:19:12. > :19:16.talked about the effects of trade in the event of a no deal, what about

:19:17. > :19:23.the reciprocal rights of EU citizens here and British set Zens who live

:19:24. > :19:26.in the EU under a no deal? I did say we'd try to get through some of

:19:27. > :19:33.these and we'll come to that later. You in the back. I think a no deal

:19:34. > :19:36.is disaster for anyone. Not only the anxieties of the Remainers confirmed

:19:37. > :19:39.and the expectations of those who want to leave will be denied. No

:19:40. > :19:44.deal is not an option. APPLAUSE

:19:45. > :19:49.Melanie Phillips, do you think no deal is not an option? I think no

:19:50. > :19:54.deal is not a good option, definitely not a good option. But a

:19:55. > :19:58.bad deal is worse. I should say that I don't think there's not going to

:19:59. > :20:05.be a deal. I don't think there's going to be a no deal. If you look

:20:06. > :20:09.at the remarks by Michel Barnier a few days ago, he went out of his way

:20:10. > :20:14.to say he wanted a good deal to be negotiated between the EU and

:20:15. > :20:18.Britain and he also said no deal would be a disaster not just for the

:20:19. > :20:25.United Kingdom, but for the European Union. They know how bad for them no

:20:26. > :20:30.deal would be and that is our strongest point. It's very important

:20:31. > :20:34.in a negotiation to show that you are determined, that you are not

:20:35. > :20:39.frightened, that you are not a supply kant, that you are on the

:20:40. > :20:43.front foot not the back foot. It's vital that this country says we are

:20:44. > :20:47.prepared to walk away and to mean it, because otherwise, the other

:20:48. > :20:51.side will have the upper hand. If we were to walk away, in the last, in

:20:52. > :20:53.the worst case scenario, if that should happen, I don't think it's

:20:54. > :20:57.going to happen, if that should happen, I don't think it would be

:20:58. > :21:00.the end of the world. It would not be good for all the reasons that

:21:01. > :21:06.have been said. But there are many countries, talking about WTO rules,

:21:07. > :21:11.the imposition of tariffs, many countries in the world have deals,

:21:12. > :21:16.trade deals with the EU under WTO rules and they seem to do rather

:21:17. > :21:19.well out of it. Melanie is right and Alec is wrong

:21:20. > :21:23.because every single Foreign Secretary I've talked to in the last

:21:24. > :21:28.several months wants a constructive outcome. They want the deal because

:21:29. > :21:32.they know it's harmful to them. They have 290 billion of exports to us,

:21:33. > :21:35.which they want to protect. We'll have a good deal.

:21:36. > :21:40.No deal is the worst possible outcome and we shouldn't allow it to

:21:41. > :21:44.be talked up. It's not just the economics and David Davis was asked

:21:45. > :21:47.about the economics by Hilary Benn how much is the cost difference

:21:48. > :21:51.between no deal and a bad deal and didn't have a clue. We have a

:21:52. > :21:54.mantra, no deal is better than a bad deal. You look behind the guard and

:21:55. > :21:57.there's nothing there. There's something more important, there are

:21:58. > :22:02.two versions of the future of the je. Generation out there. One is a

:22:03. > :22:06.crash out without a deal, severing relation was the EU all together.

:22:07. > :22:09.The other is to accept we're leaving, not members, but in

:22:10. > :22:12.partnership with the EU so we can use collaboration and cooperation to

:22:13. > :22:15.meet challenges and to take opportunities. Now the second of

:22:16. > :22:20.those opportunities, the second of those version ises the version of

:22:21. > :22:25.history that I want to fight for. I think it's a version whichever way

:22:26. > :22:28.people voted we should fight for. Crashing out, severing our relations

:22:29. > :22:32.with the EU would be a terrible thing to do and one last thing on

:22:33. > :22:37.the wider issue, because it's not just economics, I was five years as

:22:38. > :22:42.Director of Public Prosecutions. We were involved in serious criminal

:22:43. > :22:45.investigations across Europe, be it terrorism, sexual exploitation etc,

:22:46. > :22:50.that's happening all of the time. Criminal justice tools are used all

:22:51. > :22:56.the time. If we crash out without a deal, midnight on day whichever, we

:22:57. > :23:00.lose all that. Rubbish. We will lose that because we won't be in an

:23:01. > :23:05.agreement Before the referendum we had project fear and that's a

:23:06. > :23:08.trnction of project fear, all that high Welsh Cuply about cliff edges,

:23:09. > :23:11.crashing out, severing our relationships with the European

:23:12. > :23:15.Union. In case you haven't noticed, there are only 27 members of the

:23:16. > :23:20.European Union. And other countries seem to have very good relationships

:23:21. > :23:26.with the European Union even though they're not tied into a political

:23:27. > :23:31.union. Joint prosecutions we are using - Let's be serious here. Are

:23:32. > :23:33.you saying as a former Director of Public Prosecutions a responsible

:23:34. > :23:36.position that you held - We used them all the time. Are you saying

:23:37. > :23:41.because we leave the European Union we are not going to - we are going

:23:42. > :23:44.to stop sharing information about cross-border crime, about terrorism,

:23:45. > :23:54.that is utter nonsense. APPLAUSE

:23:55. > :23:59.Suzanne Evans, where do you stand on what's going to happen on Wednesday?

:24:00. > :24:03.Article 50? What Melanie said is right. We want to have a deal. I

:24:04. > :24:07.think we will get a deal. If ultimately if push comes to shove,

:24:08. > :24:11.if that deal doesn't involve what the British people voted for, which

:24:12. > :24:15.is to take back full control of our legal system from the European

:24:16. > :24:20.courts, to have full border control when it comes to immigration, to get

:24:21. > :24:25.our fishing waters back, then if that deal doesn't actually grant us

:24:26. > :24:29.all those things, and others that are prioritised and Theresa May and

:24:30. > :24:33.David have spelled out those priorities, which align with what

:24:34. > :24:37.Ukip wants to some extent, if we don't get those things, no deal

:24:38. > :24:41.would be beneficial. I want to hear from members of the audience, who've

:24:42. > :24:43.had their hands up patiently. The man there, yes, Sir, who've been

:24:44. > :24:47.waving since the beginning of the programme. I want to take issue with

:24:48. > :24:52.the belief that the EU have the upper hand in this. Bearing in mind

:24:53. > :24:55.that we are a huge export market for most of the EU countries,

:24:56. > :25:00.particularly Germany, France and Spain where there are a lot of

:25:01. > :25:03.expats. Big businesses in their countries will be putting pressure

:25:04. > :25:09.on their governments to make sure that they do a satisfactory deal

:25:10. > :25:12.with us to stop us going to India, Australia, the USA. Their big

:25:13. > :25:19.businesses will want to keep the business they do with us.

:25:20. > :25:25.APPLAUSE Brief answer, Nick. Unlike everybody

:25:26. > :25:28.on the panel, I used to work in trade negotiations. Self-confidence

:25:29. > :25:32.and talking tough everybody does that at the beginning. You need to

:25:33. > :25:35.be realistic. This petulant foot stamping and saying we can do you

:25:36. > :25:39.harm if we stalk off isn't impressing anyone elsewhere in

:25:40. > :25:42.Europe. The facts, I'm afraid, suggest that it isn't as

:25:43. > :25:49.straightforward as Melanie and David have suggested. 44% of exports go to

:25:50. > :25:55.the EU. Only 8% of their exports come this way. 13% of our GDP is

:25:56. > :25:59.down to exports to the EU. Only 3% of their GDP. What would you do? You

:26:00. > :26:07.know how the British people voted. What would you do if you were Prime

:26:08. > :26:11.Minister, or even - I would have not, I would have sought to try and

:26:12. > :26:15.bridge the differences between what is a very, very evenly divided

:26:16. > :26:17.population on this issue in the United Kingdom and particularly huge

:26:18. > :26:24.differences of attitude between the old and the young. I would have

:26:25. > :26:28.tried to do that by yes, leaving the European Union, because that's what

:26:29. > :26:33.the British people said, but not in a hard Brexit way, quitting the sing

:26:34. > :26:36.the market and the customs unit. -- union.

:26:37. > :26:44.APPLAUSE The man behind you. Yeah you. Keir

:26:45. > :26:48.accuses David of not doing his home work with regards to numbers. So

:26:49. > :26:53.obviously you have, so you know how bad it's going to be and you've done

:26:54. > :26:58.the numbers. There have been a number of reports that have set out

:26:59. > :27:03.what the economic cost is. But as a say, it's not just the economic

:27:04. > :27:09.cost. What is the economic cost? Precisely how many of the economic

:27:10. > :27:12.forecasts about Brexit have been right so far? How many? None.

:27:13. > :27:17.APPLAUSE You make your point. What's your

:27:18. > :27:21.point? My point is that it's project fear again. It's just anti-news.

:27:22. > :27:25.There is nothing coming from your side that says this is the cost.

:27:26. > :27:29.What is the cost? We are going into - What is the cost? We are going

:27:30. > :27:33.into the most important negotiations since the Second World War. Every

:27:34. > :27:38.time a reasonable question is asked it's dismissed as unreasonable

:27:39. > :27:42.denial. Every time a challenge is made it's branded frustrating the

:27:43. > :27:45.progress. It's not healthy in a democracy if we want the right

:27:46. > :27:50.outcome for our cub tri. There has to be challenge.

:27:51. > :27:53.APPLAUSE As Gordon Brown once said, I agree

:27:54. > :28:01.with Nick. I never thought I'd say it. I'm saying it now because we

:28:02. > :28:07.know what the Treasury forecast was before Brexit. Over a 15-year

:28:08. > :28:11.period, not the Apocalypse now that George Osborne said in project fear,

:28:12. > :28:17.but over a period of time. If you're out of the single market, it was 9.

:28:18. > :28:22.5% loss of GDP and about two million jobs, if that was the situation. The

:28:23. > :28:25.same economists are in the same treasury, they haven't sacked any of

:28:26. > :28:31.them. You've got to distinguish between the presentation of George

:28:32. > :28:34.Osborne who wanted to scare everybody to bejesus like he did in

:28:35. > :28:39.Scotland in 2014, and the reality behind it, which is what happens if

:28:40. > :28:42.you go out a major trading block. Right Suzanne, there are 170

:28:43. > :28:47.countries in this world who are not part of the European Union, but just

:28:48. > :28:52.about every single one of them is part of a trading block. So we'll be

:28:53. > :28:59.like Singapore. Singapore is a small country in a large trading block

:29:00. > :29:04.called ASIAN. If you have a hard Brexit, you go out of your trading

:29:05. > :29:08.block before you're back into any other. That's where the loss comes

:29:09. > :29:11.in. I don't think there'll be no deal. David will have to make so

:29:12. > :29:19.many concessions that the people looking for Brexit are going to be

:29:20. > :29:23.really, really disappointed. The woman there, yes, you.

:29:24. > :29:29.Throughout the campaign as Suzanne Evans just said, apparently a big

:29:30. > :29:33.portion of the referendum was about taking back ownership of our

:29:34. > :29:40.Parliamentary democracy. What did the panel made of Suzanne Evans'

:29:41. > :29:46.calls for High Court judges to be sacked when the judgment was handed

:29:47. > :29:50.down? It was disgraceful and the reaction, you did say that judges

:29:51. > :29:55.ought to be more controlled. Democratic scrutiny. The whole point

:29:56. > :29:58.of judges is that they independently decide cases and the backlash

:29:59. > :30:01.against the judges when they made the judgment in the Article 50 case

:30:02. > :30:06.should have been consent to everybody across the country, again,

:30:07. > :30:10.char way we voted. We have some of the best judges in the world making

:30:11. > :30:14.decisions independently. We should Cherish that. Let's stick with trade

:30:15. > :30:21.at the moment. You Sir In the grey there. All this talk about deal

:30:22. > :30:29.making, I would like to ask what's happened to diplomacy.

:30:30. > :30:33.I think there is a moral side to what's going on, whatever the deal

:30:34. > :30:37.is, I think that the guiding principle for both sides, that both

:30:38. > :30:42.sides are going to do the right thing.

:30:43. > :30:49.I agree with that and I think that is a very good point, sir. Nick was

:30:50. > :30:53.right, if you read all of's speech, not just the headlines picked out by

:30:54. > :30:56.the newspaper, a lot of it was incredible constructive. We want to

:30:57. > :31:00.see a deal on both sides and the same thing is being said around

:31:01. > :31:05.Europe. That is why in a way, this fear of this no deal is misplaced

:31:06. > :31:10.because there will be a deal because everybody wants a deal and that is

:31:11. > :31:13.where diplomacy comes in, finding the bridge. People often think

:31:14. > :31:17.negotiation is about some kind of Matt Jones stand-off. It is not, it

:31:18. > :31:20.is about finding the best outcome for everyone and the best outcome

:31:21. > :31:24.for everybody is one that preserves their market here is one of our

:31:25. > :31:28.market there. Where you have got your work cut out is that in almost

:31:29. > :31:33.all trade negotiations I have ever been part of, the starting point is

:31:34. > :31:35.that the parties on either side of the table want more trade as a

:31:36. > :31:40.conclusion of the negotiation than they had before. This is the first

:31:41. > :31:44.major trade negotiation I've ever encountered where the outcome will,

:31:45. > :31:48.for sure, we don't know how much, be less trade because the UK is pulling

:31:49. > :31:57.out of the customs union. You cannot bowl... Let me explain why. The

:31:58. > :32:00.single market... Let me explain, the single market created by Margaret

:32:01. > :32:04.Thatcher has very little to do with tariffs and levies, it is a

:32:05. > :32:07.marketplace of rules. You can't, it is logically impossible to do what

:32:08. > :32:11.David and Theresa May and the rest of the government are saying, that

:32:12. > :32:14.they want frictionless access to the single market and in the same

:32:15. > :32:19.breath, that they won't abide by the rulings of the market. It is

:32:20. > :32:28.impossible. Come on, Nick you know is. You want to comment on that? We

:32:29. > :32:33.have a worldwide market which is queueing up to do deals with us.

:32:34. > :32:41.Absolutely, yes. What you said regarding our exports to Europe will

:32:42. > :32:45.not quantify our exports and our imports with the rest of the world.

:32:46. > :32:52.Australia, New Zealand, Canada are on our side. If we pick up China and

:32:53. > :32:58.India, we don't really need Europe. They need us! OK, David Davis, you

:32:59. > :33:03.said interestingly that whatever you get, comprehensive free trade, you

:33:04. > :33:08.want to deliver the exact same benefits as we have now, is that

:33:09. > :33:13.your view, that it is a zero-sum game? No, no. On contrary, one of

:33:14. > :33:18.the problems that happens when democracies negotiate is that the

:33:19. > :33:23.politicians are afraid of raising expectations. Keir Starmer and Nick

:33:24. > :33:27.were talking about this, raising expectations. The truth is, we are

:33:28. > :33:30.negotiating for the future of the country and therefore, we want to

:33:31. > :33:36.raise the expectations as much as we possibly can. We want to aim as high

:33:37. > :33:39.as we possibly can. I make no apology for being ambitious about

:33:40. > :33:43.what we achieved. We are aiming to get the best possible deal with

:33:44. > :33:50.Europe and the best possible deal with the rest of the world. That is

:33:51. > :33:56.what this country needs. APPLAUSE You, sir, over there, with

:33:57. > :34:00.spectacles. We hear a lot of talk about team fear but all we are

:34:01. > :34:07.hearing from the Leaves side is cloud cuckoo land. You expect us to

:34:08. > :34:10.walk away from the EU, pay no money but get unrestricted access to the

:34:11. > :34:15.single market. If that is going to be the case, why is anyone else in

:34:16. > :34:19.the EU? Surely they will walk away then have unrestricted access. What

:34:20. > :34:24.do you think David Davis you do? Own up and say that is going to hurt us

:34:25. > :34:27.and Europe, no one is going to come out a winner, Europe will hurt

:34:28. > :34:30.because we are not part of it and we are going to hurt because we are not

:34:31. > :34:36.in Europe. I personally work in the car industry. I'm worried that if we

:34:37. > :34:41.walk out with no deal, suddenly, 10% tariffs slapped on every car coming

:34:42. > :34:44.out of this country. What is to stop the manufacturers moving production

:34:45. > :34:48.abroad? We already have to fight for every model we build in this

:34:49. > :34:51.country. We are just going to give that business away if we have no

:34:52. > :34:56.deal. If you take that out of the West Midlands, you will finish this

:34:57. > :35:05.economy. APPLAUSE What do you say to that? Google,

:35:06. > :35:11.Facebook, WhatsApp, Toyota, LTC, all of those companies, GSK, are putting

:35:12. > :35:15.more money into Britain this year. 16 billion since Brexit. Huge sums

:35:16. > :35:19.of money. The head of Peugeot, in your industry, says whatever

:35:20. > :35:24.happens, Britain will be a good place to invest whether it is with

:35:25. > :35:26.transnational supply networks or bringing supply networks into

:35:27. > :35:31.Britain, creating more jobs and investment. I'm afraid you are not

:35:32. > :35:35.right to be so pessimistic. The options are there. The rest of the

:35:36. > :35:40.world is there. 60% of our trade almost is now with the rest of the

:35:41. > :35:44.world. We have huge... Admit to the audience that you can't make up

:35:45. > :35:47.through negotiations with far-flung countries the much larger trade

:35:48. > :35:50.relationships we have with our neighbours. There's a reason why

:35:51. > :35:54.geography still matters in trade. We trade more with Ireland than we do

:35:55. > :35:58.with China, twice as much with Belgium than India, three times as

:35:59. > :36:01.much with Sweden than Brazil. There's a reason because they are

:36:02. > :36:05.nearby. This illusion that somehow we can make up for what we lose on

:36:06. > :36:08.our own doorstep by having new trade deals in far-flung places...

:36:09. > :36:17.APPLAUSE Keir Starmer. David rattles off a

:36:18. > :36:23.list of companies that have invested and that is a good thing, that is a

:36:24. > :36:26.good thing. And they pay their taxes. But we cannot be complacent

:36:27. > :36:30.about the risks to other companies. I've been going around the UK,

:36:31. > :36:33.talking to hundreds of businesses and they are really concerned about

:36:34. > :36:38.tariffs, about customs duties. So you think the man in the motor

:36:39. > :36:42.industry out there is right? Yes, the motor industry in particular and

:36:43. > :36:45.that is why the exact same benefits of the single market is one of the

:36:46. > :36:54.tests the Labour Party have set out for the deal, and it's really

:36:55. > :36:56.important. David Davis said the packaging hopes to negotiate will

:36:57. > :36:58.deliver the exact same benefits. We need to hold into that because this

:36:59. > :37:00.is not about a discussion tonight, this is about people's jobs, their

:37:01. > :37:04.future, the businesses they are working in. It is really serious

:37:05. > :37:06.stuff, exact same benefits, hold the government to account on this

:37:07. > :37:11.because it really matters to businesses and people who work in

:37:12. > :37:14.those businesses across our country. As a matter of interest, how can

:37:15. > :37:19.Glade hold the government to account seeing as the Tories have a majority

:37:20. > :37:23.and Labour seems divided on these issues? APPLAUSE

:37:24. > :37:27.One of the things... I'm glad you have raised that because what we

:37:28. > :37:33.have been doing in the last three months... Is trying out a number of

:37:34. > :37:38.different positions? LAUGHTER Three things, getting a white paper

:37:39. > :37:41.out of the government which they did not want to publish, no running

:37:42. > :37:44.commentary was the starting position, getting them to report

:37:45. > :37:48.back regularly so we know the direction of travel, and now they

:37:49. > :37:52.have committed to that, and having a vote in two years' time on the deal

:37:53. > :37:55.before designed by the European Parliament. Actually, Labour has

:37:56. > :38:00.achieved all of those things that matters because otherwise we have no

:38:01. > :38:03.grip and that is why went David Davis says he's going to get the

:38:04. > :38:07.exact same benefits, we will judge that at the end of the exercise. It

:38:08. > :38:10.might be a bit boring and process data more what I've been up to a

:38:11. > :38:13.nasty months on behalf of the Labour Party and others in opposition but

:38:14. > :38:16.actually, it really matters and the government did not want to give it,

:38:17. > :38:18.no running commentary, can't possibly have a vote on the final

:38:19. > :38:24.deal because it will undermine everything but now they have

:38:25. > :38:26.conceded all that, we've got it and that should please everybody because

:38:27. > :38:29.Parliament needs to be involved in this process. APPLAUSE

:38:30. > :38:31.We will talk about that a bit more later. Let's go on to another key

:38:32. > :38:35.topic. Will there be a cap on the number

:38:36. > :38:38.of EU nationals allowed in the UK, once the Brexit negotiations

:38:39. > :38:47.have been concluded? A cap on the number of EU National

:38:48. > :38:49.is allowed into the UK once the negotiations have been concluded.

:38:50. > :38:54.Suzanne Evans, what would you like to see what do you think will

:38:55. > :38:58.happen? I think everybody, well, not everybody but the vast majority of

:38:59. > :39:02.people in this country, whatever they voted on every single poll ever

:39:03. > :39:06.done shows around 70% in this country regularly think immigration

:39:07. > :39:10.is too high. I suspect we could have a long debate about how high it

:39:11. > :39:15.should be, or how low it should be. I think we need to have a level of

:39:16. > :39:18.immigration to this country which is sustainable, so we can plan for

:39:19. > :39:22.population growth accordingly, so we can make sure there are school

:39:23. > :39:27.places available, we can make sure the NHS isn't overstretched, we can

:39:28. > :39:32.cope with new migrants coming to the country. At the moment, we have a

:39:33. > :39:35.situation where the number of EU migrants coming to Britain is

:39:36. > :39:40.approximately the size of Newcastle, a city of that size, every year

:39:41. > :39:45.which is clearly not sustainable. I would be very interested to hear

:39:46. > :39:48.what sort of immigration policy the government decide... Do you want to

:39:49. > :39:55.see a cap, is the question, and actual cap on the number from the

:39:56. > :39:59.EU? A cap is tricky, isn't it? Why? It allows for no flexibility and at

:40:00. > :40:02.the moment, a lot of companies struggle in the country because they

:40:03. > :40:06.have a cap on the number of people they can bring in from outside the

:40:07. > :40:11.European Union. Do you want to see? What I want to see is a sensible

:40:12. > :40:15.immigration system which actually treats everybody around the world

:40:16. > :40:19.equally and one of the reasons I don't like the current immigration

:40:20. > :40:23.policy that we have is because it gives priority to EU nationals and I

:40:24. > :40:27.think that is grossly unfair. I think we should be taking people who

:40:28. > :40:31.can benefit this country and be self-supporting, which I think is

:40:32. > :40:34.very important as well, personally I think people should have a job to

:40:35. > :40:37.come to when they come here. They should not be allowed to come if

:40:38. > :40:40.they don't have a job to come to or they can't support themselves and

:40:41. > :40:44.their families. But, you know, nobody in the Leave campaign ever

:40:45. > :40:49.said we wanted to stop immigration so let me put those lights out.

:40:50. > :40:53.LAUGHTER Of course, the reason Ukip were

:40:54. > :40:56.telling people they wanted to control immigration from the EU was

:40:57. > :41:02.to have more people from outside the EU, if we listen to what we are

:41:03. > :41:10.hearing tonight. We did say that, Alex! This is so unfair. This was a

:41:11. > :41:12.secret plot by Ukip to get more people immigrating to this country

:41:13. > :41:19.from outside the European Union. APPLAUSE

:41:20. > :41:23.Of course, that is the fallacy behind all of this. The 165,000

:41:24. > :41:28.people from outwith the European Union who came into this country,

:41:29. > :41:33.Theresa May was Home Secretary for all of these years, a hardline Home

:41:34. > :41:38.Secretary and she didn't stop that. That is right. There was no

:41:39. > :41:41.systematic attempt to stop that all the attempt failed. David asked a

:41:42. > :41:45.few minutes ago, what should we do now? You know the first thing we

:41:46. > :41:48.should do to try to improve the tenor of these negotiations? We said

:41:49. > :41:53.the 3 million of our fellow citizens from the European Union work among

:41:54. > :41:57.last, do valuable things across our public services, pay their taxes,

:41:58. > :42:01.that they are welcome, should not be used as bargaining chips. We should

:42:02. > :42:05.take a unilateral move to try to improve the tenor of negotiations

:42:06. > :42:08.and say to these people, as they are entitled to hear, that they are

:42:09. > :42:09.welcome in this country and we appreciate everything they have done

:42:10. > :42:30.for us. CHEERING AND APPLAUSE What I would say... David Davis,

:42:31. > :42:35.sorry, no. No, that was in our... Will you wait your turn? Alexander's

:42:36. > :42:40.just accused me so I would like to reply. We can't share it around six

:42:41. > :42:44.people. It wasn't in the SNP manifesto but it was in hours. David

:42:45. > :42:49.Davis, the question is, will there be a cap on the number of EU

:42:50. > :42:53.nationals? I agree with Alex about one thing and that is European Union

:42:54. > :42:56.citizens in the UK, doing a good job, supporting the NHS, social

:42:57. > :43:01.welfare, all sorts of industries, are very important should be made to

:43:02. > :43:06.feel welcome, should not be made to feel unwelcome, the other side of

:43:07. > :43:09.that, which is unfortunate. So what about what Alec suggests, the first

:43:10. > :43:13.thing should be to say they can stay? I will come to that in a

:43:14. > :43:20.second, well, let me deal with it now. There are about 4 million, I

:43:21. > :43:23.think, Michel Barnier referred to it, about 4 million people we have

:43:24. > :43:27.to worry about in this context and we have to be generous to and we

:43:28. > :43:31.have to make sure that their rights are entrenched. 3 million of them

:43:32. > :43:35.are European citizens here and about 1 million are British citizens

:43:36. > :43:39.abroad. We don't want to make any of them bargaining chips and by

:43:40. > :43:42.treating them together, no one is treated as a bargaining chip. Again

:43:43. > :43:47.in terms of talking to the diplomacy, in terms of talking to

:43:48. > :43:50.the Foreign secretaries and prime ministers in the rest of Europe,

:43:51. > :43:53.almost every single one of them raised it as the first issue, they

:43:54. > :43:56.agreed the approach we are taking was right, they agreed that we

:43:57. > :44:02.should try and resolve this as fast as possible and I should say that

:44:03. > :44:06.Theresa May did try to get it resolved in December but could not

:44:07. > :44:10.do so but we will resolve it pretty quickly, certainly, the first thing

:44:11. > :44:16.on the batting order of the negotiation when it starts stop the

:44:17. > :44:19.man in the blue shirt, there. How on earth can use it therein say that

:44:20. > :44:25.when the Conservative Party voted down the right to remain? This was

:44:26. > :44:28.an amendment to the Article 50 Bill we laid which was to say to the

:44:29. > :44:32.government unilaterally, give protection to those that are in this

:44:33. > :44:35.country, EU nationals, who are not just contributing to our society but

:44:36. > :44:40.they are our society and the government voted that down and then

:44:41. > :44:44.they voted down the amendment when they came back from the House of

:44:45. > :44:46.Lords. I accept there are, of course, UK nationals across Europe

:44:47. > :44:51.and we need to be concerned about them as well. We have a legal

:44:52. > :44:54.responsibility for them. I completely accept that, of course

:44:55. > :44:57.but they are being used as bargaining chips because what David

:44:58. > :45:01.is saying is, we will hold this group of people, those that are

:45:02. > :45:07.here, so we can secure a better deal for someone else. That is to bargain

:45:08. > :45:10.with groups of people, whether you like it or not. I accept the Prime

:45:11. > :45:13.Minister tried to get this sorted. She did not succeed but she should

:45:14. > :45:18.have acted unilaterally. I think had she done so, she would have set a

:45:19. > :45:22.very good tone for the beginning of the negotiations and got us off to a

:45:23. > :45:23.good start. Coming back to the question, will there be a cap on the

:45:24. > :45:32.number of EU nationals? The first issue is to bring this

:45:33. > :45:36.back under the control of the UK Government and Parliament, to bring

:45:37. > :45:40.migration under control. I don't think most people oppose migration.

:45:41. > :45:44.I think most people are in favour of migration, so long as it's managed.

:45:45. > :45:48.The point is it will need to be managed. My job is to bring the job

:45:49. > :45:50.back and it's for the Home Secretary to decide the policy. I cannot

:45:51. > :45:53.imagine that the policy will be anything other than that which is in

:45:54. > :45:59.the national interest, which means that from time to time, we'll need

:46:00. > :46:02.more and from time to time we'll need less migrants. That will be in

:46:03. > :46:09.everybody's interest, the migrants and the citizens of the United

:46:10. > :46:15.Kingdom. Sorry, just before we move on, sometimes it will be more and

:46:16. > :46:19.sometimes less, more than now? Do you mean any number? What it will be

:46:20. > :46:25.is whatever the Government judges to be sustainable. The tens of

:46:26. > :46:28.thousands that the Tory Party has gone on about for a long time no

:46:29. > :46:33.long applies? I think we will get there. We have to manage this

:46:34. > :46:35.properly. You have industries dependent on migrants, social

:46:36. > :46:39.welfare, the National Health Service. Let's take the National

:46:40. > :46:44.Health Service, the registrations from Europe have dropped 75% since

:46:45. > :46:47.Brexit. In a full year that will mean there will be 7,000 less

:46:48. > :46:51.qualified nurses from elsewhere in the European Union working in our

:46:52. > :46:55.National Health Service. I had a look at the Queen Elizabeth Hospital

:46:56. > :47:01.A figures today - What do you attribute this to? They've dropped

:47:02. > :47:04.by 75% because in the post-Brexit atmosphere people cannot be secure

:47:05. > :47:08.about their position in this country. When they're heard what

:47:09. > :47:12.David Davis has just said they will be. David is the acceptable face of

:47:13. > :47:16.the Cabinet. He's not the one, it was Liam Fox who said people were to

:47:17. > :47:22.be cards to be played, I quote him exactly. David wouldn't argue that.

:47:23. > :47:26.But the reality is that our fellow citizens feel uncertain and the

:47:27. > :47:30.reality is that nurse registrations have dropped by 75%. I do feel some

:47:31. > :47:35.of the these 7,000 missing European Union nurses would come in very

:47:36. > :47:38.handy in the Accident Emergency ward at Queen Elizabeth Hospital in

:47:39. > :47:44.Birmingham right now. I'll come to you in a moment, Nick. Melanie

:47:45. > :47:47.Phillips. Well, perhaps it's a bit of a diversion to talk specifically

:47:48. > :47:52.about the Health Service, but since it's been raised, there is clearly a

:47:53. > :47:57.major crisis of nursing in the, nurse numbers in the Health Service.

:47:58. > :48:01.That crisis has been caused by the very short sighted policies, boom

:48:02. > :48:06.and bust policies of the way the NHS is run. Some years ago, when it got

:48:07. > :48:10.into difficulties, it cut nurse training. It cut nurse training for

:48:11. > :48:14.British nurses. Then there was a panic because they didn't have

:48:15. > :48:18.enough nurses. So they went abroad. That's why so many foreign-born

:48:19. > :48:22.nurses were brought in, many of them paid less than British nurses. The

:48:23. > :48:27.problem with the nursing situation is what's happening here, not the

:48:28. > :48:32.problem - it's not specifically - the foundation of the problem does

:48:33. > :48:37.not lie in Europe. As far as a cap is concerned, I can't see any reason

:48:38. > :48:41.why European Union nationals should be capped specifically. We have a

:48:42. > :48:46.problem of mass immigration in this country. We have too many people for

:48:47. > :48:50.the public services to sustain that number of people. 50% to 60% of

:48:51. > :48:53.those people are coming from the European Union. We have to deal with

:48:54. > :48:57.the problem of immigration. We can only do that if we have control over

:48:58. > :49:03.our immigration policy. That is the most crucial thing of all. Given

:49:04. > :49:07.that, once we have control of our immigration policy we should bring

:49:08. > :49:11.in people for the needs of the country in the public, skilled

:49:12. > :49:14.workers from the EU certainly, we should be deciding that and

:49:15. > :49:22.hopefully we will. Let me hear from one or two other people. The man

:49:23. > :49:28.there. Then the person who was waving vaguely in the middle there.

:49:29. > :49:34.Sorry the man in the red tie behind you. I work in the NHS, across the

:49:35. > :49:38.NHS about 5% of all clinical posts are currently unfilled. 5% of all

:49:39. > :49:42.NHS nurses are from the EU and about 10% of doctors. Rather than talk

:49:43. > :49:47.about a cap on immigration, why don't we actually talk about how we

:49:48. > :49:51.can entice these people to stay? Why can't the Government do the decent

:49:52. > :49:54.people and tell those people who are worried about their future and their

:49:55. > :49:59.security and tell them they have a right to stay? You have enough to

:50:00. > :50:04.worry in your negotiations, this is a simple thing you could do up front

:50:05. > :50:07.before your negotiation, why can't you just do the decent thing and do

:50:08. > :50:19.that? APPLAUSE

:50:20. > :50:26.This issue will be resolved as the first issue in the negotiation.

:50:27. > :50:30.Let's be clear, the other heads of government, the Foreign Secretary,

:50:31. > :50:34.who I've spoken to in the last few months, none have said we shouldn't

:50:35. > :50:37.worry and indeed treat the status of British citizens the same. Indeed

:50:38. > :50:41.the Polish Prime Minister said in public in Britain that they are the

:50:42. > :50:44.same issue, not separate. We is said over and over again and I've said

:50:45. > :50:50.so, in Parliament, over and over again in responses to questions from

:50:51. > :50:54.Keir and many others and Alec and others that we view this as a moral

:50:55. > :51:00.responsibility. I view this as a moral responsibility. People should

:51:01. > :51:04.not worry about this. Well, they do. They should not. If I'm asked to

:51:05. > :51:08.make a response to the public, that's what I'm doing. They should

:51:09. > :51:13.not worry about this. Their position will be underwritten, will be - not

:51:14. > :51:17.just their residency position, welfare, pensions, all of that is

:51:18. > :51:20.what we're aiming to solve and that's what we're going to solve. Do

:51:21. > :51:25.you feel reassured by what David Davis has said? I think there's a

:51:26. > :51:29.lot of people who've been only here a few years and they're in a

:51:30. > :51:34.different position to myself. I work in a department where about 20% of

:51:35. > :51:39.our nurses are from the EU. I think the area that you are dreaming about

:51:40. > :51:42.in the future that you have a global trade market with also different

:51:43. > :51:47.countries is a reality in health care. In health care is a biassed

:51:48. > :51:51.market, people will go where their skills are needed. If people feel

:51:52. > :51:54.they are insecure here they will go elsewhere. I don't think you have

:51:55. > :51:58.much time to sort this issue out. You don't feel more secure because

:51:59. > :52:02.of what David Davis has said? No. Are you from the EU? Yes, I am.

:52:03. > :52:06.Where are you from? Germany. Thank you.

:52:07. > :52:10.The man up there. How long have you been here, by the way, I should have

:52:11. > :52:14.said? This May, it will be 20 years. Oh, well you have residency rights

:52:15. > :52:18.and indeed you can be a citizen if you want. I could be, but the

:52:19. > :52:22.question of citizens isn't just decided in the head, it's also in

:52:23. > :52:26.the heart. Immigration is just one side of the coin. We all, as a

:52:27. > :52:30.country, agree that immigration is good. That's what we're hearing

:52:31. > :52:33.continuously. But what the Government needs to do is think

:52:34. > :52:38.about what is the underlying problem. The underlying problem is

:52:39. > :52:41.the services, the pressure that uncontrolled immigration brings.

:52:42. > :52:45.What I would like to hear from the Government is what they're doing as

:52:46. > :52:50.well as getting control of immigration and the borders, what

:52:51. > :52:52.they're doing to improve the services, like hospitals, other

:52:53. > :52:58.public services, infrastructure. Nick Clegg. I struggle to be wholly

:52:59. > :53:01.objective about this because I'm married to a Spanish lady and my mum

:53:02. > :53:07.is Dutch. She's lived here for over half a century. She's now in her

:53:08. > :53:11.80s. She used to be a teacher. She's raised four children here and paid

:53:12. > :53:15.taxes. I think as her son, it's scandalous that an elderly lady in

:53:16. > :53:19.her 80s is made to feel so unsure about her own status in a country

:53:20. > :53:22.which she loves and has been loyal to for decades and had no say, at

:53:23. > :53:24.all, about what happened to the future of her country and that of

:53:25. > :53:29.her kids. Perhaps I can't be objective. But the thing I really

:53:30. > :53:34.abhor is the dishonesty of this debate. Remember what Nigel Farage

:53:35. > :53:38.did during the referendum, willfully confusing the refugee crisis in the

:53:39. > :53:44.Mediterranean with Brexit, when the two are separate. Look at the wilful

:53:45. > :53:47.distortion of statistics including students, when clearly they

:53:48. > :53:50.shouldn't count much the worst this is this, for the last 40 yoorz more

:53:51. > :53:54.people have come into this country from outside the European Union than

:53:55. > :53:58.from the European Union. So somehow blaming it all on German workers in

:53:59. > :54:03.the NHS or my mum or my wife is ridiculous. In fact, since 2000, in

:54:04. > :54:07.terms of the total net migration into this country, only a quarter is

:54:08. > :54:12.accounted for the European Union. So it is fundamentally dishonest to

:54:13. > :54:16.claim that this problem and clearly many people do regard it as a

:54:17. > :54:20.problem, can be solved by clamping down on French lawyers, German

:54:21. > :54:25.engineers and Spanish nurses. I just think it's time we have a more

:54:26. > :54:30.honest debate. APPLAUSE

:54:31. > :54:36.Yes. Brief comment from you. I would, if you like, to say that I

:54:37. > :54:39.feel the fact is we live in a liberal market economy that prop

:54:40. > :54:42.gait a hire and fire culture. Leaving the EU and ridding ourselves

:54:43. > :54:46.of protected citizens that have human rights to bring in cheap

:54:47. > :54:50.labour from countries that do not have protected human rights is

:54:51. > :54:53.really what is the discussion here. All right, we've heard a number of

:54:54. > :54:57.voices like that. I'd like to hear from somebody who approves of

:54:58. > :55:09.restrictions on immigration. You do, ma'am. Yes? The panel all seem to

:55:10. > :55:14.think that what they call the EU nationals all come to say

:55:15. > :55:18.professionals mainly, you forget that those coming in during the

:55:19. > :55:22.summer, those EU people to come and being admitted in hospitals and they

:55:23. > :55:25.don't pay a bill for their treatment. They go back. This is why

:55:26. > :55:33.the National Health Service went down. The bill is enormous. You Sir,

:55:34. > :55:36.behind. The question I get is the Government has been trying to get an

:55:37. > :55:40.agreement for a while, we never see the European Union or the commission

:55:41. > :55:45.trying to come forward and do this. It seems to be us trying to get athe

:55:46. > :55:49.agreement, but the other countries seem to not want to comply. Why do

:55:50. > :55:53.you think that is? It's politically difficult then for our parties, the

:55:54. > :55:57.longer they leave it. They could easily come forward tomorrow and say

:55:58. > :56:01.we agree, we'll sign On Tour both sides. It seems to be us that's

:56:02. > :56:05.trying and not them. You think there's ill will towards Britain?

:56:06. > :56:08.Absolutely. At this stage about the negotiations? Yeah. Anybody else

:56:09. > :56:16.feel strongly about that issue of the way that immigration is being

:56:17. > :56:21.handled? I go to you, yes. The man here in the second row. I think it's

:56:22. > :56:27.difficult because if we're going to have a cap, we almost need the help

:56:28. > :56:30.of the EU to run with that. For example, the French, they're making

:56:31. > :56:35.it pretty easy for people to come over here. We almost need the help

:56:36. > :56:39.of those guys. On a separate matter, I actually run an international

:56:40. > :56:43.business and the problem that we've got is a lot of these companies are

:56:44. > :56:47.quite scared about a cap because we have a massive skills shortage in

:56:48. > :56:51.the UK and getting the people over here is what these companies need.

:56:52. > :56:55.If big companies can't attract talent from abroad, they'll end up

:56:56. > :56:57.leaving. It's a really difficult issue because there's two sides to

:56:58. > :57:01.it. Can I come in on that point? It's

:57:02. > :57:07.really important. When I did the Shadow immigration role, I went

:57:08. > :57:11.round the country talking to communities and to businesses about

:57:12. > :57:15.immigration. Wherever I talked to businesses, I say to them - what's

:57:16. > :57:19.the thing that's going to inhibit your success over the next three to

:57:20. > :57:22.five years? Wherever I went in the you country, including here,

:57:23. > :57:26.whatever the size of the business, and whatever the type of the

:57:27. > :57:31.business, they all said skills and a lot of the recruitment they were

:57:32. > :57:36.doing that has an effect on the numbers was because they couldn't

:57:37. > :57:38.get the skills here. I started a discussion about immigration, ended

:57:39. > :57:44.with a discussion about skills. That is a huge political failure that we

:57:45. > :57:48.in this country don't have a way of making sure that the skills we need

:57:49. > :57:51.are available in the UK. I don't want to stop companies recruiting

:57:52. > :57:56.from other countries for the skills they need, of course. But they

:57:57. > :58:00.shouldn't be required to do so because of the political veilure to

:58:01. > :58:06.have a skills agenda in this country. You Sir In red. I agree

:58:07. > :58:11.with Nick, it should be an honest debate, but not a scaremongering

:58:12. > :58:14.debate. None of us know it would have carried on for years and years,

:58:15. > :58:19.what the numbers would have been. Services, you know, all it is, all

:58:20. > :58:23.we're saying is just control on who can come in and who can't. Not you

:58:24. > :58:27.can't come in. You can't come in. It's just a debate and a control.

:58:28. > :58:32.Not just, you know, there's lots of scaremongering. People saying people

:58:33. > :58:35.can't come in and Alex is saying we are going to send off people. What

:58:36. > :58:41.would you do if 300,000 come into Scotland every year, would you still

:58:42. > :58:47.be greed? One of the reasons that Scotland voted so heavily for Remain

:58:48. > :58:49.is that there isn't the same anxiety about immigration and people coming

:58:50. > :58:54.from other countries. I think there's two reasons for that. One is

:58:55. > :58:58.there's not a family in the whole of Scotland who doesn't have somebody

:58:59. > :59:02.who emigrated to Australia or Canada, the United States or

:59:03. > :59:07.whatever. It's not easy to sell a message like Ukip were trying to do.

:59:08. > :59:10.That somehow he's immigrants were a burden, since every family has an

:59:11. > :59:14.immigrant who has made a great success elsewhere. The second reason

:59:15. > :59:19.is equally important. Parts of Scotland have suffered not from

:59:20. > :59:22.immigration, but from emigration. If you've seen depopulation and what

:59:23. > :59:26.the lack of people and the lack of services and the lack of schools and

:59:27. > :59:32.empty Glenns and empty villages and towns, if you see what that does to

:59:33. > :59:35.a community, then you'll never fear immigration again, because

:59:36. > :59:38.emigration and depopulation is much, much worse. Why are they leaving

:59:39. > :59:46.Alex, are you not doing a very good job? Alex mentions Scotland and

:59:47. > :59:50.today there was what seemed to be a rather cool discussion between

:59:51. > :59:55.Theresa May and Nicola Sturgeon about this whole issue of how the

:59:56. > :00:03.Brexit negotiations are conducted. Let's have that question now.

:00:04. > :00:09.Women Brexit unite or spell the end of the union? I don't think it will

:00:10. > :00:14.spell the end of the union. I very much hope it won't. I think the

:00:15. > :00:19.union is bigger than its constituent parts. The UK is stronger through

:00:20. > :00:23.having its constituent nations belonging to it. Would it be a worry

:00:24. > :00:30.to you if it did mean the end of the UK? Yes, it would worry me. On the

:00:31. > :00:33.other hand, I think that democratic self-government cannot be held

:00:34. > :00:40.hostage by the feelings of people in one part of this country. I have

:00:41. > :00:51.great respect for Scotland. I have great sympathy with the aspirations

:00:52. > :00:54.of a number of Scots for independence, but the question is

:00:55. > :00:59.whether it will lead to the break up of the union. Personally, I don't

:01:00. > :01:07.think it will, because I think that the Scots are extremely level headed

:01:08. > :01:11.and sensible individuals and that when they look, as I think they

:01:12. > :01:15.already are, at the hard facts of what would happen to Scotland, if it

:01:16. > :01:20.were to gain independence from Britain, in the event of Britain

:01:21. > :01:25.leaving the European Union, I think just on economic terms alone it is

:01:26. > :01:34.to Scotland's disadvantage. They can see that the European Union is not

:01:35. > :01:44.going to be overly enthusiastic about encouraging a similar

:01:45. > :01:48.secessionary -- cessationy movement in Europe. It's jumping the gun. If

:01:49. > :01:53.Scotland wants independence that's one issue. The issue is whether or

:01:54. > :01:57.not it should be allowed to conduct a second referendum before the

:01:58. > :02:01.Brexit negotiations are concluded. And the argument as I understand it

:02:02. > :02:05.from Nicola Sturgeon is that it was always understood if there was a

:02:06. > :02:09.material change in the circumstance of Scotland inside the United

:02:10. > :02:13.Kingdom, then all bets would be off and another referendum would be

:02:14. > :02:17.called. But no material change will have happened until the final deal

:02:18. > :02:23.is done. The Scots will have no idea what they are voting for. Let's

:02:24. > :02:27.leave aside the timing of a referendum. The question is whether

:02:28. > :02:28.the deal done by Davis David is one that could satisfy opinion in

:02:29. > :02:39.Scotland. You, sir, in the middle, yes? With

:02:40. > :02:47.the glasses on. No, to the right. Yes. I'm just worried that the

:02:48. > :02:53.Scottish referendum question has moved from being an issue about the

:02:54. > :03:04.union, to being an issue of subtle political blackmail. I believe the

:03:05. > :03:12.union of 300 years... APPLAUSE David Davis is being blackmailed by

:03:13. > :03:15.Scotland? Yes, it has become used in every major UK Government decision

:03:16. > :03:19.and if there is a second referendum, if they visit, there will be a third

:03:20. > :03:27.and a fourth as soon as there are any major decisions. APPLAUSE

:03:28. > :03:34.Alex Salmond? For the information of melanin, in the SNP manifesto last

:03:35. > :03:39.year, Nicola Sturgeon, on page 23, put in the commitment that if there

:03:40. > :03:42.were a material change in circumstances, such as Scotland

:03:43. > :03:45.being taken out of the European Union against the will of the

:03:46. > :03:49.Scottish people, then the Scottish parliament should have the right to

:03:50. > :03:54.hold another referendum. That was a manifesto commitment. The last few

:03:55. > :03:57.weeks around the budget and small business, we have seen what happens

:03:58. > :04:00.to government to try to ditch their manifesto commitment. That was in

:04:01. > :04:04.the manifesto and she was re-elected resoundingly with 47% of the vote

:04:05. > :04:09.and the Scottish Parliament has every right to implement that

:04:10. > :04:13.manifesto. We have heard a lot about that but what about what David Davis

:04:14. > :04:16.will negotiate? Is there an outcome of those negotiations which could

:04:17. > :04:21.satisfy Scotland so the issue of another referendum would not arise?

:04:22. > :04:23.Maccabeus, there is and in answer to the gentleman, before Christmas,

:04:24. > :04:30.Nicola Sturgeon put forward the position paper... Plateau gait

:04:31. > :04:33.Scotland's place in Europe which led the way to resolve the

:04:34. > :04:37.differences... And there is no way to do it just now, Ireland is in

:04:38. > :04:39.stalemate, the Welsh Aileen aided, Scotland will have another

:04:40. > :04:47.referendum and England is still split 50-50. -- the Welsh are in

:04:48. > :04:50.limbo. Nicola Sturgeon said the way that the UK could do it was stay

:04:51. > :04:55.within the single market place even if they left the EU and if that were

:04:56. > :04:58.not possible, then for Northern Ireland or Scotland in particular,

:04:59. > :05:01.in our document, for Scotland to have a special deal within the

:05:02. > :05:05.single market place even if the UK were to leave. That was the position

:05:06. > :05:09.paper and many other things, like protecting the rights of European

:05:10. > :05:12.citizens in Scotland, workers' rights, really important issues in

:05:13. > :05:16.this debate. That was the position paper. The government has had it for

:05:17. > :05:21.more than three months and Nicola Sturgeon has not had an answer. She

:05:22. > :05:24.was not even consulted about the Article 50 letter. The meetings of

:05:25. > :05:28.the joint ministerial committee that were going to take place did not

:05:29. > :05:33.take place, the Welsh delegation described them as being conducted

:05:34. > :05:36.like a parish council meeting. The attitude towards not just Scotland

:05:37. > :05:37.but the other devolved administrations has been

:05:38. > :05:43.contemptuous from the Westminster government. She had every right to

:05:44. > :05:47.go to the Scottish Parliament and increment the mandate. David Davis,

:05:48. > :05:49.what do you say to this, there has been no serious negotiations

:05:50. > :05:53.although we know there were promised at the beginning and can you deliver

:05:54. > :05:58.a deal that will satisfy Scottish opinion? There has been to meetings

:05:59. > :06:02.of the Council chaired by the Prime Minister, more there -- more than

:06:03. > :06:06.there has been in most years of the last decade, there have been four

:06:07. > :06:09.joint ministerial committee meetings on this subject alone, attended by

:06:10. > :06:14.the Scottish Government, the gentleman I saw today, attended by

:06:15. > :06:19.the Welsh government and the Northern Irish executive while it

:06:20. > :06:22.existed. And what are you told by them? Quite a lot, take for example

:06:23. > :06:29.that White Paper which was discussed and debated at the joint ministerial

:06:30. > :06:32.committee, some aspects of it, protection of employees rights,

:06:33. > :06:40.absolutely taken on board and made a major part of our policy. What about

:06:41. > :06:45.being in the single market? That is a crucial one. The single market

:06:46. > :06:49.issue, now, what is single market membership about? It is about

:06:50. > :06:52.maintaining jobs and access to the single market, being able to sell

:06:53. > :06:56.products and services into the single market. What are we trying to

:06:57. > :07:00.get? A comprehensive free trade arrangement which does just that,

:07:01. > :07:04.which allows us to sell into the single market so the distinction

:07:05. > :07:10.becomes one of how you do it and the Scottish proposal is that they, now,

:07:11. > :07:14.alone, should be a member of the single market while the rest of the

:07:15. > :07:18.UK is not. That means they have got to sign up to free movement of

:07:19. > :07:21.people, so you can have free movement of people to Edinburgh but

:07:22. > :07:25.not London, they have to sign up to the European Court of Human Rights

:07:26. > :07:30.and all of the elements, in other words, they want to break the

:07:31. > :07:41.country in two. What a surprise! APPLAUSE

:07:42. > :07:45.Yes? Can I just... Can we take a deep breath and acknowledge

:07:46. > :07:48.something? In a general election or a by-election, people by and large

:07:49. > :07:52.go by party lines, they may be swayed by the arguments of the time

:07:53. > :07:56.but they go with the party they usually vote for. In the referendum,

:07:57. > :08:02.it was completely different. Families voted differently,

:08:03. > :08:06.immunities. I know from reading Craig Oliver's excellent book that

:08:07. > :08:12.there were many surprises on both sides, all the way throughout.

:08:13. > :08:16.Coming here tonight, watching in the audience for the first time,

:08:17. > :08:21.watching at home, it is very hard for people to really decide what the

:08:22. > :08:26.truth is because arguments seem to be made, still, on party lines by

:08:27. > :08:29.people sat up there. I think it is very hard for people sat at home to

:08:30. > :08:36.really decide and understand what is going on here, like for the

:08:37. > :08:40.referendum, there was Project Fear, the Nigel Farage posters and people

:08:41. > :08:44.heard the arguments made but it is still hard because everyone seems to

:08:45. > :08:49.have diametrically opposed opinion. That is all well and good when there

:08:50. > :08:56.is an election but the decision has already been made and we are sad

:08:57. > :08:58.that I'm thinking we're pretty much powerless, and I personally don't

:08:59. > :09:05.have a great deal of faith the people in power to exercise a

:09:06. > :09:09.decision when you can't even agree on what is going to happen and the

:09:10. > :09:15.decision is already out of our hands, it is up to you. Keir

:09:16. > :09:18.Starmer? APPLAUSE I'm very grateful for you making

:09:19. > :09:25.that point because we were split down the middle. It was a narrow

:09:26. > :09:29.decision, 52-48, almost halfway down the country. Obviously, I campaigned

:09:30. > :09:33.passionately to stay in the EU but I did it on the basis the outcome

:09:34. > :09:36.would be binding which is why I and the Labour Party have accepted the

:09:37. > :09:41.result but what we now need to do, it is harder than it seems, is to go

:09:42. > :09:44.forward in a way that unifies the country and works both for those

:09:45. > :09:48.that voted to leave and for those that voted to remain. One of the

:09:49. > :09:52.concerns about the government 's approach is that those that voted to

:09:53. > :09:56.remain feel they have been written out of their own future but we have

:09:57. > :10:00.to have an agreement that actually works for both sides of the country,

:10:01. > :10:04.as it were, and we have stood atop talking in the way that perpetuates

:10:05. > :10:08.the division which is why I set out six tests today which are based on

:10:09. > :10:12.the idea that if we can't be members of the EU because that was the

:10:13. > :10:16.referendum question, how can we be close partners with EU countries and

:10:17. > :10:21.colleagues and have something that works for future generations because

:10:22. > :10:26.we are talking about generational change, here. That is why so

:10:27. > :10:29.important to build consensus. David and the government set out months

:10:30. > :10:32.ago saying they would try to build a consensus across the nations and

:10:33. > :10:35.nations and regions and I'm afraid they have failed to do that, and

:10:36. > :10:40.today is further evidence of that and they need to work harder. I

:10:41. > :10:43.think the Prime Minister is taking quite an isolationist approach, not

:10:44. > :10:46.wanting to be open with accountability and scrutiny. We

:10:47. > :10:53.wanted to have Parliament more involved and at every twist and

:10:54. > :10:56.turn, the Prime Minister said no but a collegiate approach is better. We

:10:57. > :11:01.will talk about that in a moment but one or two more people on this

:11:02. > :11:05.point. Yes? ... Access to the single market for them is a foregone

:11:06. > :11:08.conclusion. You have no idea what is going to happen if you left the UK.

:11:09. > :11:13.You have no idea what access to Europe you will get. I feel like it

:11:14. > :11:16.is a foolish stunt, bringing the Scottish referendum earlier when

:11:17. > :11:20.originally, it was only going to be if we couldn't get access to the

:11:21. > :11:24.single market so it appears like you are moving the goalposts and aiming

:11:25. > :11:31.towards a referendum regardless of the circumstances. APPLAUSE

:11:32. > :11:38.Not everyone on the panel has spoken to this yet but since it is directed

:11:39. > :11:41.at you, Alex, can you answer that? In 18 months, two years' time, we

:11:42. > :11:44.will know the shape of the Brexit deal and the House of Commons and

:11:45. > :11:48.every other Parliament across the EU will be given a choice, take it or

:11:49. > :11:51.leave it, and it is not a real choice incidentally because leave

:11:52. > :11:54.it, as we have already discussed, leaving the single market will be a

:11:55. > :11:57.bad choice, so why shouldn't the people of Scotland have the same

:11:58. > :12:00.ability to choose between a Brexiteer of David Davis or

:12:01. > :12:06.independents from Europe? By that time, the proposition will go

:12:07. > :12:08.forward to the Scottish people which will involve continuous membership

:12:09. > :12:11.of the single market because the choice is not now a choice in 18

:12:12. > :12:14.months' time. One last thing, the Prime Minister, which you came to

:12:15. > :12:19.Scotland the week after she was elected, she gave a commitment that

:12:20. > :12:22.she would not sign Article 50 until there was an agreed UK position

:12:23. > :12:27.backed by Scotland. These were her words. There has been no such

:12:28. > :12:31.agreement but she is intent on going ahead on Wednesday and invoking

:12:32. > :12:35.Article 50. It is a clear breach of faith and breach of her word and

:12:36. > :12:39.Nicola Sturgeon is quite entitled to go to the Scottish parliament and

:12:40. > :12:44.ask for support. Do you agree with that? It is a breach of faith?

:12:45. > :12:47.Before you do, answer that point if you can, if you can take the two,

:12:48. > :12:52.the point there has been a breach of faith with Scotland. I think a

:12:53. > :12:58.plague on both your houses, I don't think Scottish nationalism is

:12:59. > :13:00.another... On the whole of the UK? In the UK, for those of us who are

:13:01. > :13:05.not Scottish Nationalists or members of the Conservative Party or Ukip,

:13:06. > :13:09.we are squeezed between a resurgent English nationalism between the

:13:10. > :13:12.Conservative Party and Ukip nationalism in Westminster and

:13:13. > :13:15.sluggish nationalism north of the border, I don't think nationalism is

:13:16. > :13:19.a solution to the world's problems, north or south of the border. I

:13:20. > :13:22.think it has been very unhelpful the SNP have jumped opportunistically to

:13:23. > :13:27.trigger another independence referendum as it was, by the way,

:13:28. > :13:30.totally predictable that by pursuing this cell farming hard Brexit and

:13:31. > :13:34.yanking us out of the single market, yanking us out of the customs union,

:13:35. > :13:41.choices we did not need to make as a country and choices that David Davis

:13:42. > :13:43.before he went into government would argue against, by doing that of

:13:44. > :13:46.course you provoke tensions within the family of nations. Quickly to

:13:47. > :13:49.the gentleman earlier who said it is so difficult for the public to work

:13:50. > :13:54.out what happens next, those who I feel... My heart goes out most two

:13:55. > :14:00.is the youngsters who voted in very large numbers, 18-24 -year-olds,

:14:01. > :14:04.over 60% of them voted on the 23rd of June last year and 70% of them

:14:05. > :14:08.said they don't want this future. As a country, for better or worse, I

:14:09. > :14:12.think for worse, we have taken a huge decision about our future

:14:13. > :14:16.against the exquisite, stated wishes of those who have to inhabit that

:14:17. > :14:24.future, in other words, the young. They have to live with the

:14:25. > :14:26.consequences of this decision and that is what I think, when we

:14:27. > :14:29.finally know what the deal is, of course it is right that the decision

:14:30. > :14:32.about what whether we adopt the deal should not be left to David Davis,

:14:33. > :14:38.Theresa May or the politicians, it should be given back to the people.

:14:39. > :14:42.We will come to that. APPLAUSE We will come to that but Suzanne

:14:43. > :14:47.Evans, on this point about the union? I think, you know, Alex, you

:14:48. > :14:50.talk about Scotland and you talk about the people of Scotland but

:14:51. > :14:57.what you mean is, you talk about the SNP. In the SNP does not

:14:58. > :15:03.represent... APPLAUSE Just a couple of points, a third of

:15:04. > :15:06.SNP voters voted for Brexit. And also, you know, what Melanie said

:15:07. > :15:11.right at the beginning of the discussion is spot on, Scottish

:15:12. > :15:14.people are very sensible. They know that Scotland economically is four

:15:15. > :15:20.times as reliant on the UK as it is of the European Union. And it is

:15:21. > :15:25.absolutely... So you believe in free trade? Not just for emotional

:15:26. > :15:28.reasons, but for the country and the future as a united country and I

:15:29. > :15:32.very much hope Scotland stays part of the UK but you know, it is a good

:15:33. > :15:36.thing for Scotland to stay in because it is in their best

:15:37. > :15:39.interests and at the end of the day, after Brexit, at least I know what

:15:40. > :15:44.currency I'm going to have in my pocket. The SNP, you leave the UK,

:15:45. > :15:49.you won't have a clue what currency will have. Wait a minute, wait a

:15:50. > :15:54.minute, we will have a lot more in Scotland. Alex, if you could bring

:15:55. > :15:58.yourself to be very brief. Briefly, Nicola Sturgeon can't get an SNP

:15:59. > :16:01.majority for the referendum in the Scottish parliament, she has to get

:16:02. > :16:05.a majority across the Parliament, she needs another political party to

:16:06. > :16:08.agree to get the majority and she is not just speaking for the SNP, she's

:16:09. > :16:13.trying to articulate the view of the nation and whatever the votes for

:16:14. > :16:19.the SNP which incidentally, are 20 times the votes for Ukip, whatever

:16:20. > :16:22.the for the SNP... APPLAUSE The vast, overwhelming majority of

:16:23. > :16:29.people in Scotland want a say in the single market. -- want to stay. I

:16:30. > :16:32.want David Davis to answer the point you made earlier that Scotland have

:16:33. > :16:35.been betrayed in these discussions are ready by the Prime Minister,

:16:36. > :16:38.promising she would do one thing and then not and then I want to go the

:16:39. > :16:44.question you raised about what now because that is probably the last

:16:45. > :16:47.area we are going to, how this proceeds and what control the

:16:48. > :16:51.British public as a whole has over it. David?

:16:52. > :16:56.When Alex said this in the House of Commons, he quote today from a

:16:57. > :17:00.newspaper, rather than the original fact. Which one. He's answered

:17:01. > :17:04.himself. The simple truth is what the Prime Minister said is that she

:17:05. > :17:07.would seek consensus. She can't demand it. Frankly the Scottish

:17:08. > :17:13.National Party doesn't want consensus. It wants to have it's all

:17:14. > :17:18.so-called compromise solution, which is single market membership for is

:17:19. > :17:23.of. Nick lectured us all on honesty earlier, and he started off by

:17:24. > :17:27.saying, he started off by saying that I had made this argument

:17:28. > :17:32.before, untrue. The argument he was now making. And he said we want to

:17:33. > :17:37.have membership of the single market. He's ignoring something

:17:38. > :17:41.important. To have that you have to accept free movement. You have to

:17:42. > :17:45.accept the rule of the our peen court of justice, not human rights,

:17:46. > :17:48.as I said earlier. The 6th April, 2014, you wrote, first we should

:17:49. > :17:54.retain access to the EU single market. Access. Membership and

:17:55. > :17:59.access are different things. That's the point. If the liberal party

:18:00. > :18:03.can't realise that... APPLAUSE

:18:04. > :18:08.No, no, no. That's wrong. Retain access. Jo it's a meaningless thing

:18:09. > :18:12.to say. You've got to be honest about the facts you're talking to

:18:13. > :18:16.now. And the last point about it is of course that being in the sing the

:18:17. > :18:21.market, it's virtually impossible to be outside the European Union and be

:18:22. > :18:24.in the single market, unless you're going to behave and accept all the

:18:25. > :18:28.rules handed down from somebody else. So I'm afraid that simply does

:18:29. > :18:32.not stand up. The British people voted to leave the European Union,

:18:33. > :18:41.not stay half in, half out. APPLAUSE

:18:42. > :18:45.Just to be clear, access to the sing the market and paying for access to

:18:46. > :18:49.the single market is something you would go along with? I didn't say

:18:50. > :18:57.that. Any contribution for access to the single market, of course, woed'

:18:58. > :19:01.consider it? Considering. If you consider it, you're not ruling it

:19:02. > :19:06.out. As the Prime Minister corrected me that day, yes, we'd consider it,

:19:07. > :19:11.didn't mean we'd do it. I don't think he'd be at all pleased or

:19:12. > :19:15.convinced. That's what I'm talking about. You don't understand it.

:19:16. > :19:17.Doesn't make sense. I'm not the Prime Minister luckily. I'm going to

:19:18. > :19:20.take another question. Should the British people

:19:21. > :19:27.have a vote on the final Let's take this now, should the

:19:28. > :19:32.British people have a vote on the final Brexit deal agreed, what

:19:33. > :19:37.happens, David Davis, when you come back with your deal. It's said it's

:19:38. > :19:41.going to be put to Parliament as a yes or No vote. That's where it

:19:42. > :19:45.stands at the moment? Is that it? That's the end TV? Because the

:19:46. > :19:51.decision taken by -- that's the end of it? Because the decision taken by

:19:52. > :19:55.the British people on June 23 was the point of no return. We gave the

:19:56. > :19:58.British people a referendum on this subject. It was said at the dispatch

:19:59. > :20:03.box by the minister presenting the act of Parliament that this will be

:20:04. > :20:08.a decision for the British people, not advice, decision. So yes, that's

:20:09. > :20:12.the stance. Now you ask about a referendum. This is the liberal

:20:13. > :20:19.party policy, a second referendum. If you want to encourage the

:20:20. > :20:23.European negotiator in this to give us the worst possible deal, that's

:20:24. > :20:28.the way to do it. Why so? Just explain it. I will. Because what

:20:29. > :20:31.they want is to keep us in. They want to keep us in. If you had

:20:32. > :20:35.another referendum, another run at the referendum, they would give us

:20:36. > :20:40.the worst deal, in the hope that we would vote to stay in. For our

:20:41. > :20:43.money, for our involvement, for the contribution we make to the European

:20:44. > :20:46.Union, in all sorts of ways, that's what they would do. Come on, David.

:20:47. > :20:54.APPLAUSE Keir Starmer. I think it's really

:20:55. > :20:58.important that Parliament has a say in this. That's why we've been

:20:59. > :21:02.arguing for what I termed a meaningful vote in Parliament, which

:21:03. > :21:06.is the ability of MPs to vote on the deal that comes back in two years'

:21:07. > :21:12.time. You've been offered that. Absolutely. We intend - and that's

:21:13. > :21:14.why I said out tests today, we intend to use that because if the

:21:15. > :21:17.Prime Minister comes back with a deal, which doesn't have the

:21:18. > :21:20.confidence of Parliament, then that is not a good deal for our country.

:21:21. > :21:24.That's a really important vote in Parliament. Now that, hopefully,

:21:25. > :21:27.will be in the Autumn of 2018. If it's not good enough, the

:21:28. > :21:31.instruction will be to the Prime Minister to go and negotiate some

:21:32. > :21:36.more. This idea that it's a take it or leave it vote is a political

:21:37. > :21:40.choice on the half of the Prime Minister. That's a very, very

:21:41. > :21:43.important point of grip. As for a second referendum, I'm afraid that

:21:44. > :21:46.lots of people make the argument for a second referendum are not being

:21:47. > :21:49.honest about whether it's achievable. Because all that will

:21:50. > :21:54.happen in two years' time, if this goes in the direction I hope it will

:21:55. > :21:59.go in, is that we'll have a transitional arrangement in March

:22:00. > :22:02.2019. Can't have a referendum on a transitional arrangement. The final

:22:03. > :22:06.deal will be perhaps two or three after a transitional period, by

:22:07. > :22:10.which time, we will have formally left the EU. In other words, what's

:22:11. > :22:13.being put forward is the false promise, if you like, of a

:22:14. > :22:15.referendum that isn't going to happen. Politically this is

:22:16. > :22:19.important because either we stand up and face - I didn't want to leave

:22:20. > :22:23.the EU, I passionately campaigned to stay in, now the decision is made,

:22:24. > :22:25.we need to stand up and confront the challenges in front of us or we

:22:26. > :22:29.spend the whole time looking behind us trying to rub out the decision

:22:30. > :22:32.that was made. I don't think we're going to succeed if we do the

:22:33. > :22:37.second. What happens if you have the vote and the Government comes back

:22:38. > :22:40.and presents it, perhaps unlikely, but in view of the House of Commons,

:22:41. > :22:44.but there is a vote against it, what happens then? Are you going to send

:22:45. > :22:48.him back again to have another go - that's like the referendum. If they

:22:49. > :22:53.think that's going to happen, they will take his referendum argument.

:22:54. > :22:57.Is there any chance of it happening? This vote in the House of Commons is

:22:58. > :23:03.artificial. It will come in two years' time - October 2018. Well,

:23:04. > :23:07.October 2018, let's say it is, then it will be accepted or rejected.

:23:08. > :23:12.Why? Because the Prime Minister says so? Because there's a two-year time

:23:13. > :23:17.limit on these negotiations. I have put an amendment to make sure if it

:23:18. > :23:24.was rejected we'd stay in, I can't remember if the Labour Party decided

:23:25. > :23:28.to support that. It's an artificial chase, take or leave it. On the

:23:29. > :23:32.question of the referendum, you'd have to have a general election, in

:23:33. > :23:37.which people argued in the general election to hold another refer dumb

:23:38. > :23:39.and got a mandate for doing. It unfortunately the past was sold on

:23:40. > :23:42.the referendum, where the majority of the people, including the Labour

:23:43. > :23:45.Party and the Liberal Democrats voted for this referendum two years

:23:46. > :23:51.ago in the House of Commons. I think they were wrong to do so, but the

:23:52. > :23:55.surpass was sold in that. The only way for another referendum is with a

:23:56. > :23:59.general election to give a pert a mandate to reconsider the whole

:24:00. > :24:02.referendum. Personally I'm not sure whether another referendum is the

:24:03. > :24:08.right way to go, frankly, there are a lot of people in this country who

:24:09. > :24:11.think how the hell can we trust a Government to have our best

:24:12. > :24:16.interests at heart and get the best deal for us, when they haven't had

:24:17. > :24:19.our best interests before. They say oh, Theresa May comes out and say

:24:20. > :24:23.more funding for mental health, a week later, mental health is being

:24:24. > :24:28.cut. How can we - There was a referendum. How can retrust someone

:24:29. > :24:31.- There was a referendum. How can retrust someone who's deported

:24:32. > :24:36.50,000 students. We leave right, we've got that, how can we trust

:24:37. > :24:39.them to get the best deal for us when they haven't done it

:24:40. > :24:43.beforehand. I see. I have great sympathy with that. We have been to

:24:44. > :24:47.be quick now. It's a widespread problem. There's lack of trust in

:24:48. > :24:52.Government. We are in a Parliamentary democracy. We had a

:24:53. > :24:55.refer ditch on the constitutional -- referendum on the constitutional

:24:56. > :25:00.issue. We voted out. Our system means we entrust the Government to

:25:01. > :25:05.negotiate and Parliament rightly will have a say on the final

:25:06. > :25:09.negotiation. So much of this argument is a coveted way of

:25:10. > :25:17.Remainers trying to overturn the will of the British people.

:25:18. > :25:21.APPLAUSE It sounds very seductive, let's

:25:22. > :25:25.bridge the gap between Remainers and Brexiteers. If I hear these terms,

:25:26. > :25:29.hard Brexit and soft Brexit, I shall throw up. There is no hard Brexit

:25:30. > :25:35.and soft Brexit. There is simply Brexit.

:25:36. > :25:40.APPLAUSE Keir Starmer is saying this is

:25:41. > :25:45.rubbish. What is meant by soft Brexit is keeping us within the EU

:25:46. > :25:51.rules, which means effectively half in, half out. It is an attempt by

:25:52. > :25:57.Remainersto pretend to -- remainers to pretend to obey the will of

:25:58. > :26:01.British people while in the detail trying to overturn it. We only have

:26:02. > :26:05.a couple of minutes left. Very quickly. David Davis, this is

:26:06. > :26:09.beneath you. We've known each other for many years. You cannot claim it

:26:10. > :26:13.would be impossible for a democracy to be able to negotiate successfully

:26:14. > :26:16.international agreement. By your logic, when David Davis said that

:26:17. > :26:20.having another referendum on the final deal it would be an incentive

:26:21. > :26:24.to give the United Kingdom a bad deal. By that reckoning, the only

:26:25. > :26:27.governments that could successfully negotiate good international

:26:28. > :26:32.agreements with each other are dictatorships, where you never allow

:26:33. > :26:38.the people to have a say. Secondly, you used to make this argument. You

:26:39. > :26:42.used to advocate a double referendum strategy. We also commit the country

:26:43. > :26:46.to a decision referendum to be held when the EU negotiation is concluded

:26:47. > :26:50.and then you said something rather wise, if a democracy cannot change

:26:51. > :26:55.its mind, it ceases to be a democracy. And the question is, as

:26:56. > :26:59.ever, who decides. Let's say we have a deal. Would decides? Is it Theresa

:27:00. > :27:02.May on her own in Number Ten? Is it a bunch of politicians in

:27:03. > :27:07.Westminster? Or is it you? I believe it should be you.

:27:08. > :27:10.Suzanne Evans. APPLAUSE

:27:11. > :27:15.You have to be very brief I'm afraid. We only have a minute or so

:27:16. > :27:17.left. We had a referendum in 1975. We changed our mind, we've had

:27:18. > :27:22.another one. We're leaving. APPLAUSE

:27:23. > :27:25.Ukip is very much in favour. We can't carry on having referendums on

:27:26. > :27:28.referendums on referendums. The vote leave campaign made it clear what we

:27:29. > :27:39.want from Brexit. David, the country is looking to you to deliver. It

:27:40. > :27:44.OK. -- to deliver it. Keir Starmer. I accept the result. I think I now

:27:45. > :27:47.and many other people should have a role in shaping the future. There is

:27:48. > :27:50.a role of difference between crashing out without a deal,

:27:51. > :27:54.severing our ties with Europe and on the other hand having a partnership,

:27:55. > :27:58.a collaborative, Co-operative future with Europe. I've got children and

:27:59. > :28:02.the next generation require us and want us to shape the future for

:28:03. > :28:05.them. Simply saying there's no choice, they are very different

:28:06. > :28:09.futures. We've got it fight for the future that we want for the next

:28:10. > :28:14.generation. I've got to stop because we have to make way for today's news

:28:15. > :28:18.and the rest of it. I want to say to all of you here who had your hands

:28:19. > :28:21.up and didn't get a chance, I'm sorry. I don't apologise to the

:28:22. > :28:25.panel, because they've all had a good shout. We have the Article 50

:28:26. > :28:28.on Wednesday. And the letter from the Prime Minister to Donald Tusk,

:28:29. > :28:31.the president of the European Council, from Theresa May, and a

:28:32. > :28:36.response apparently in 48 hours. Plenty more to talk about, Thursday,

:28:37. > :28:40.the so-called great repeal bill will get the details of that and the

:28:41. > :28:43.legislation moving here. My thanks to our panel, to all of you who came

:28:44. > :28:47.here to Birmingham to take part, Question Time will be back on

:28:48. > :28:50.Thursday at its usual time of 10. 45pm, here on BBC One. For now, from

:28:51. > :28:58.Birmingham, good night.