:00:08. > :00:21.Welcome to Question Time which tonight comes from Carlisle.
:00:22. > :00:23.Sitting round the table with me tonight, the leader
:00:24. > :00:26.of the Scottish Conservatives, Ruth Davidson.
:00:27. > :00:32.The general secretary of Britain's biggest union,
:00:33. > :00:42.And from the free market think-tank, the Institute
:00:43. > :00:45.of Economic Affairs, Kate Andrews.
:00:46. > :01:01.As always, watching from home, you can make comments
:01:02. > :01:04.about what you hear on our Facebook site, on Twitter or text 83981,
:01:05. > :01:07.press the Red Button to see what others are saying.
:01:08. > :01:09.I always thought this Red Button was on the television set,
:01:10. > :01:14.I expect you know that, but I've never tried to do that,
:01:15. > :01:19.This is a question from somebody we haven't seen
:01:20. > :01:32.Well, hopefully not, especially if the Prime Minister
:01:33. > :01:38.I mean I think, first of all, we need to make certain
:01:39. > :01:40.that we don't get into a project fear about Brexit.
:01:41. > :01:44.That was the mistake that the remain campaign made last time.
:01:45. > :01:48.Brexit is with us, we are leaving the European Union,
:01:49. > :01:51.but the important thing, as far as I'm concerned,
:01:52. > :01:54.is to make certain that it's a Brexit that works
:01:55. > :02:00.It's a Brexit that defends jobs, investment, defends our communities
:02:01. > :02:04.and, most importantly of course, defends workers' rights.
:02:05. > :02:07.That's something that at the moment the Government's approach,
:02:08. > :02:12.the Prime Minister's approach, being a so-called hard Brexit,
:02:13. > :02:14.appears to be not listening - not listening to employers,
:02:15. > :02:23.I understand the Prime Minister would not want to show her hand.
:02:24. > :02:26.I'm a negotiator, you need to keep things close to your chest,
:02:27. > :02:29.but there needs to be parliamentary scrutiny at different stages
:02:30. > :02:32.and it's vitally important that the voice of working people
:02:33. > :02:45.Wherever I go in manufacturing at the moment, companies are saying
:02:46. > :02:47.that they are concerned about the future,
:02:48. > :02:49.the uncertainty, the lack of investment that might come.
:02:50. > :02:54.I'll give you a very quick example, David.
:02:55. > :02:58.I met with the president of Ford Europe, just before
:02:59. > :03:02.Christmas, he tells me that Ford have just made a decision to invest
:03:03. > :03:12.I asked him were we going to get a chunk of that.
:03:13. > :03:14.He said, at the moment, the word from Detroit is, no,
:03:15. > :03:17.we can't invest in Britain because we are concerned
:03:18. > :03:30.I met 200 of my senior shop stewards and conveners last Saturday
:03:31. > :03:34.from the automotive sector, a jewel in the manufacturing crown
:03:35. > :03:37.at the moment, and already we've got BMW talking about the new electric
:03:38. > :03:46.We've even got Nissan, the company that we thought,
:03:47. > :03:48.and we were delighted that they'd reached an agreement
:03:49. > :03:50.with the Government, now saying that, depending
:03:51. > :03:52.on what Brexit is, they will review their position.
:03:53. > :03:54.So you don't sound very optimistic, but we'll come back
:03:55. > :03:57.But, Ruth Davidson, a divorce turning messy?
:03:58. > :04:06.I mean, what's been really strange about the Brexit debate...
:04:07. > :04:09.Well, I think that you saw from the tone
:04:10. > :04:12.of the Prime Minister yesterday, it was a conciliatory tone.
:04:13. > :04:14.You saw from Donald Tusk, when he accepted the letter,
:04:15. > :04:16.he said that his overwhelming feeling was sadness.
:04:17. > :04:19.I think we have to recognise that this isn't a zero-sum game.
:04:20. > :04:21.This isn't if somebody wins, somebody else loses.
:04:22. > :04:23.In fact, if it turns into a point scoring fight,
:04:24. > :04:26.I think what's really interesting in this is,
:04:27. > :04:29.it has united people across a whole different spectrum.
:04:30. > :04:31.So I'm the leader of the Scottish Conservative Party,
:04:32. > :04:34.I stood on a platform last year with Sadiq Khan, the Mayor
:04:35. > :04:36.of London, I'm sitting next to Len McCloskey here today,
:04:37. > :04:39.three very different sets of politics across the spectrum,
:04:40. > :04:41.but three things we all have in common.
:04:42. > :04:46.We were all remainers, we all recognise that Brexit
:04:47. > :04:49.is happening and the UK will leave the European Union and we all
:04:50. > :04:52.believe that there is a positive outcome that can happen if we go
:04:53. > :04:54.about these negotiations in the right way.
:04:55. > :04:56.That's nothing to do with our politics, but that's
:04:57. > :05:01.Now, it will be difficult, it will be complex, but I think
:05:02. > :05:04.that we have to support and input to the Prime Minister to make sure
:05:05. > :05:06.that she's got the best negotiating hand and,
:05:07. > :05:09.no matter where you are, we can help with that.
:05:10. > :05:11.But it also means - and Len's quite right -
:05:12. > :05:14.it means we should be making sure that we're looking at this
:05:15. > :05:18.But Len was saying he knows how to negotiate, of course he does,
:05:19. > :05:21.Was the Prime Minister right to raise security?
:05:22. > :05:25.We've had a number of questions on that, as one of the things that
:05:26. > :05:28.might be withdrawn if the Government didn't get what it wanted?
:05:29. > :05:30.I think that's a misrepresentation of what was said.
:05:31. > :05:33.What the Prime Minister was saying - "In security terms,
:05:34. > :05:35.a failure to reach agreement would mean our co-operation
:05:36. > :05:37.in the fight against crime and terrorism would be weakened."
:05:38. > :05:43.What it means is we need to make sure that we get an agreement.
:05:44. > :05:45.This something the Prime Minister put out in her Lancaster House
:05:46. > :05:49.She put the 12 points that were so important for us.
:05:50. > :05:52.Now, we know that we're - and this is again where it comes
:05:53. > :05:55.back to the zero-sum game - we know that we're all safer
:05:56. > :06:00.if we do get a deal and we work together.
:06:01. > :06:04.We know that we all lose out if we start trying to score points
:06:05. > :06:07.So that's why making sure that it's not -
:06:08. > :06:20.whatever Mr Brown said - a messy divorce, that we don't
:06:21. > :06:40.I'll come to members of the audience in just a moment.
:06:41. > :06:40.Well, I agree with Ruth, but that is exactly
:06:41. > :06:40.what the Government is doing and I think - What is exactly
:06:41. > :06:41.I think they've played a very dangerous game
:06:42. > :06:41.Well, scoring points, trying to turn this into a zero-sum gain.
:06:42. > :06:42.When they were asked to clarify what that line meant in the letter,
:06:43. > :06:42.the Home Secretary said, "we are the largest contributor
:06:43. > :06:42.to Europol, so if we left, then we'd take our information with us."
:06:43. > :06:42.That is quite clearly a Government that seems to be threatening
:06:43. > :06:46.that we would remove our co-operation on security matters
:06:47. > :06:49.from the EU if we don't get the free trade agreement that we want.
:06:50. > :06:52.Now, that is - if you think about that for a moment,
:06:53. > :06:56.That is a Prime Minister who appears to be suggesting
:06:57. > :06:59.that we would side with terrorists and that we would prevent other
:07:00. > :07:00.European countries from getting information that may
:07:01. > :07:03.keep their citizens safe, knowing full well that in return
:07:04. > :07:05.that would prevent us from getting access that would keep our
:07:06. > :07:08.The Prime Minister has had 24-hours to clarify that
:07:09. > :07:11.that's not what she meant, she hasn't done it,
:07:12. > :07:14.If she didn't mean that, she needs to explain why
:07:15. > :07:18.she included this astonishing phrase in her letter yesterday and chose
:07:19. > :07:21.to make empty threats to the 27 countries that we are currently
:07:22. > :07:25.seeking to reach a trade agreement with.
:07:26. > :07:28.Which ever way you look at this - Lisa, that's nonsense,
:07:29. > :07:36.- which ever way you look at this, it's an act
:07:37. > :07:38.of serious self-harm to the United Kingdom.
:07:39. > :07:43.It is absolute nonsense, it's the worst type of scaremongering.
:07:44. > :07:47.The only British politicians that are siding with terrorists,
:07:48. > :07:50.as you put it, are your leader and your Shadow Chancellor -
:07:51. > :07:55.Not a single member - Are the only British politicians
:07:56. > :07:57.that side with terrorists in this country.
:07:58. > :08:00.Incredibly cheap, and not a single member of your party has been
:08:01. > :08:02.out on the airwaves, in the last 24-hours,
:08:03. > :08:04.denying that the Prime Minister is threatening to withdraw
:08:05. > :08:06.co-operation from our European neighbours unless we
:08:07. > :08:11.What they have said is that we need to ensure that we get co-operation
:08:12. > :08:15.Just to clarify, in what respect are you saying that
:08:16. > :08:17.Jeremy Corbyn and John McDonnell side with terrorists?
:08:18. > :08:23.They walked the past the people that wore the British Army uniforms
:08:24. > :08:25.and they walked up to the bombers with the balaclavas
:08:26. > :08:30.I think you should do well to defend your own party at the moment.
:08:31. > :08:32.The woman in the centre, at the back there.
:08:33. > :08:36.Given that Theresa May has said this, is it wise to go ahead
:08:37. > :08:40.with the plan for more than doubling the size of the Sellafield site
:08:41. > :08:41.with three new nuclear reactors that are now,
:08:42. > :08:44.we're told, to be built by the South Koreans?
:08:45. > :08:47.The woman in red there, on the right.
:08:48. > :08:50.Is not one of the problems that this divorce is going to be based
:08:51. > :08:54.It's going to take at least two years negotiation
:08:55. > :09:01.Yeah, of course, it will take two years because that's
:09:02. > :09:05.part of the process, part of Article 50.
:09:06. > :09:08.The original question was - is this divorce going to get messy?
:09:09. > :09:16.Well, there are certain people and certain parties
:09:17. > :09:16.within our own House of Commons who want it to be as messy
:09:17. > :09:17.as possible in an attempt to ensure that we actually never leave
:09:18. > :09:24.the European Union and they really want to keep us in.
:09:25. > :09:33.I think what's happening here at the moment is posturing,
:09:34. > :09:35.it's the phoney war, people are setting out
:09:36. > :09:40.But, in the end, money always talks and I think we will come to a good
:09:41. > :09:43.We have a huge trading deficit with the EU,
:09:44. > :09:53.We're its biggest marketplace and, indeed, there are four
:09:54. > :09:56.to six million jobs on the continent which are dependent on our trade.
:09:57. > :09:59.And if we do sign that deal, it will be mutually beneficial,
:10:00. > :10:01.not just for the EU, but for us as well.
:10:02. > :10:05.But the great thing is, after that, we can then go on and sign trade
:10:06. > :10:09.We can reconnect with the rest of the world -
:10:10. > :10:10.with India, with China, with the United States.
:10:11. > :10:13.We've got a great future as a result are of Brexit,
:10:14. > :10:16.but it has to be the Brexit that people voted for on June 23rd.
:10:17. > :10:24.That is a Brexit whereby we get full control of our borders,
:10:25. > :10:28.a real return to our democracy, full control of our waters,
:10:29. > :10:31.once again and, as I say, take our seat back on the world
:10:32. > :10:38.trade organisation and sign trade deals all over the globe.
:10:39. > :10:42.Gordon Brown, you asked the question, what do you think?
:10:43. > :10:44.I think sometimes there can be a very big difference
:10:45. > :10:46.between economic theory and practical politics
:10:47. > :10:48.and we've already just heard, just going round the panel,
:10:49. > :10:52.it's getting a bit messy amongst the panel, never mind
:10:53. > :10:55.when the actual real players get down to lock horns.
:10:56. > :10:57.What do you fear when you say "messy"?
:10:58. > :11:01.That the United Kingdom could be a much poorer,
:11:02. > :11:09.In theory, it could work well, but in practice I fear it might not.
:11:10. > :11:13.I'm cautiously optimistic, certainly more optimistic than Len.
:11:14. > :11:16.And, hopefully, to cheer your spirits a bit, more investment has
:11:17. > :11:18.been coming to the UK since the referendum,
:11:19. > :11:20.?16 billion extra in foreign investment has come here.
:11:21. > :11:24.London was, once again, named the financial capital
:11:25. > :11:26.and centre of the world just this week.
:11:27. > :11:27.So I'm cautiously optimistic, but you're completely
:11:28. > :11:31.We haven't left yet, it's going to be a two year process.
:11:32. > :11:36.Divorces can get very messy when personalities get involved,
:11:37. > :11:40.but if the politicians think of the children or us, so to speak,
:11:41. > :11:45.The UK Government could do something tomorrow,
:11:46. > :11:48.now that we triggered Article 50, to make it very clear that they want
:11:49. > :11:53.a good Brexit on good terms and they should immediately give EU
:11:54. > :11:55.nationals right to remain in this country regardless
:11:56. > :12:08.Some will argue that this is ceding ground, that she must wait
:12:09. > :12:11.until the European Union agrees to do it for UK citizens,
:12:12. > :12:14.but I have to say, if Theresa May were to do that tomorrow
:12:15. > :12:17.and her Government were to do that tomorrow and the EU
:12:18. > :12:19.were to refuse UK nationals, I think even the likes
:12:20. > :12:22.of Nick Clegg and Tim Farron would change their minds
:12:23. > :12:24.about the referendum result because that would not want to be
:12:25. > :12:27.a club that we would want to be a part of.
:12:28. > :12:36.I read today in the papers that Francois Hollande stated
:12:37. > :12:38.that he has his own agenda within his own country
:12:39. > :12:45.Of course, there's a general election next month and I know that
:12:46. > :12:47.Germany has a general election in September, Italy next February.
:12:48. > :12:51.Do you think the changing of guard is going to change the dynamics
:12:52. > :12:54.of the actual negotiations because people are going to say
:12:55. > :12:58.different things, maybe a new party will come in and maybe push the,
:12:59. > :13:00.sort of, agenda to a different, sort of, different way, really?
:13:01. > :13:04.Yeah, it's a very fluent situation within the political arena,
:13:05. > :13:06.right throughout Europe at the moment.
:13:07. > :13:09.Kate's just said the Government could do something tomorrow.
:13:10. > :13:11.I tell you what else the Government could do tomorrow.
:13:12. > :13:13.They could make it clear that workers' rights
:13:14. > :13:18.I'm going to come to that question, so I'm going to actually
:13:19. > :13:23.We'll come to it, it's the next question we've got here.
:13:24. > :13:25.Ruth Davidson, do you just want to comment on this business
:13:26. > :13:28.that the Prime Minister could now, immediately today, say that EU
:13:29. > :13:30.nationals could stay here, the point that she made?
:13:31. > :13:34.I think, if it were up to me, you know, I would have liked
:13:35. > :13:36.to have seen it done, but I'm not the Prime Minister
:13:37. > :13:39.of the country and I don't also have responsibility for the hundreds
:13:40. > :13:41.of thousands of Brits that live abroad.
:13:42. > :13:43.She's got to balance the responsibilities she has
:13:44. > :13:46.for people currently living in Britain as well as people who are
:13:47. > :13:49.You would liked to have seen her do that?
:13:50. > :13:52.Like I say, if it were down to me, but then I'm not carrying
:13:53. > :13:55.the responsibility that she has and I don't have to, in my sense,
:13:56. > :13:58.I don't have to balance the same responsibilities that she does.
:13:59. > :14:01.She might find a lot more goodwill overseas if she was prepared
:14:02. > :14:07.How much danger will there be to workers' rights
:14:08. > :14:16.Len, I will come to you because you've raised it twice already.
:14:17. > :14:22.Kate Andrews, the danger to workers' right after the Great Repeal Bill.
:14:23. > :14:25.How much danger do you think there'll be because the British
:14:26. > :14:27.parliament will be able to change anything and everything
:14:28. > :14:31.But also, very importantly, you will be able to vote
:14:32. > :14:34.for new politicians, for a new parliament if you don't
:14:35. > :14:38.I think it's incredibly unlikely that the regulations
:14:39. > :14:42.we're bringing over, especially when it's
:14:43. > :14:44.related to workers' rights, are going to be dramatically rolled
:14:45. > :14:46.back or repealed in the United Kingdom.
:14:47. > :14:49.I think this is a country that very much upholds workers' rights
:14:50. > :14:56.The idea, simply because it's coming to the United Kingdom ,they're
:14:57. > :14:59.going to be thrown out, I just don't fully buy that.
:15:00. > :15:02.I really do think that we need to be implementing sunset clauses
:15:03. > :15:04.into this Great Repeal Bill which means that bureaucrats can't
:15:05. > :15:07.sit around and take a long time to decide which workers' rights
:15:08. > :15:11.are good for the UK and which ones need to be expanded and which ones
:15:12. > :15:24.If we implement these sunset clauses, it can get bureaucrats
:15:25. > :15:25.to make these decisions sooner rather than later and then you,
:15:26. > :15:28.the British people, will get to know what deal you're getting and bring
:15:29. > :15:31.in new representation if that's what you want.
:15:32. > :15:33.Paul Nuttall, Theresa May has talked about if things go badly we'd
:15:34. > :15:34.have the freedom to set competitive tax and embrace policies that
:15:35. > :15:35.Would they include changes to workers' rights, the number
:15:36. > :15:37.of hours people could work, that kind of thing in
:15:38. > :15:51.I don't think they do, beyond that, calling it the great repeal Bill is
:15:52. > :15:54.wrong, it should be called the great incorporation bill because we are
:15:55. > :15:59.incorporating EU law into British law, we are not really repealing
:16:00. > :16:04.anything. It's a huge job. Please don't underestimate how big this is.
:16:05. > :16:08.There's been 52,000 pieces of EU legislation which have affected this
:16:09. > :16:13.country since 19906 alone. The majority of this, of the work on
:16:14. > :16:18.this will be mainly technical. It's taken out mentions of EU
:16:19. > :16:21.institutions such as the European Parliament, the European Council and
:16:22. > :16:24.commission which are incorporated into these pieces of law which will
:16:25. > :16:28.no longer be relevant once we have left the European Union. But, also
:16:29. > :16:33.remember when it comes to workers' rights, a lot of workers' rights
:16:34. > :16:42.were put in place before we were members of the European economic,
:16:43. > :16:46.such as workers' rights, equal pay. I encourage the Government, don't
:16:47. > :16:49.mess around with workers' rights during this debate or this work on
:16:50. > :16:54.the great repeal bill. If you do want to change workers' rights, take
:16:55. > :16:58.it to Parliament after we've left the European, let's then have a
:16:59. > :17:01.debate and we can go forward then into the 2020 general election on
:17:02. > :17:07.that platform and see how they get on. But that is a good thing, David
:17:08. > :17:12.because... All right. We can have an election on it because at least it's
:17:13. > :17:16.democratic, unlike the European Commission, which meets in secret
:17:17. > :17:20.and initiates its own laws. We have your point.
:17:21. > :17:25.APPLAUSE. Anyone who believes that this is not
:17:26. > :17:30.going to be used to attack workers' rights is not living in the real
:17:31. > :17:34.world. Leading members of the Conservative Party have already
:17:35. > :17:38.indicated that they're looking forward to reducing the frightening
:17:39. > :17:42.thing is... Who's said what? A number of leading members, Liam Fox
:17:43. > :17:48.for one, a number of leading members have said that a lot of workers'
:17:49. > :17:53.rights are nothing more than regulations that restrict business
:17:54. > :17:57.and the reality is that if we don't make it clear that we are going to
:17:58. > :18:01.defend the rites of British people, Kate says that we are well known for
:18:02. > :18:09.workers' rights, we have the worst protected workforce in the whole of
:18:10. > :18:12.Europe, despite the fact that we are the nation that, having defeated
:18:13. > :18:16.fascism at the end of the Second World War, gave Europe all of the
:18:17. > :18:20.freedoms they currently have. Yet German workers, Italian workers,
:18:21. > :18:23.French and all the rest of them, have got better protections than
:18:24. > :18:27.British workers. So my challenge to the Prime Minister, and I'm hoping
:18:28. > :18:32.Ruth and others will agree with me, is to put people's mind at rest by
:18:33. > :18:37.making it clear that all workers' rights that are going to be
:18:38. > :18:43.transferred indomestic rights will have the same protections as the
:18:44. > :18:48.fixed term Parliament act which means that 66% of Parliament would
:18:49. > :18:54.be needed to change those current rights. If she did that tomorrow,
:18:55. > :18:58.that would go a long way to ease people's concerns. My fear is she
:18:59. > :19:05.may not do it. All right. So you want to see laws passed by
:19:06. > :19:10.Westminster, abandoning the normal 50% plus 1 and going to this 60%, so
:19:11. > :19:16.it's two thirds for particular laws? There is a precedent within... All
:19:17. > :19:20.right. Legislation to do that. Ruth Davidson? The great repeals act will
:19:21. > :19:24.give ministers an opportunity and they have already said they are
:19:25. > :19:27.going to modify some of the laws. Ministers can do that and courts
:19:28. > :19:32.can, without any reference to parent. That's the fear. That's what
:19:33. > :19:37.we have got to defend. APPLAUSE.
:19:38. > :19:40.Ruth Davidson? I know that Len's in the mid offal an election right now
:19:41. > :19:43.but let's bring this back down-to-earth for a second. He talks
:19:44. > :19:45.about leading members of the Conservative Party and what they've
:19:46. > :19:48.said. Let's look at the leading member of the Conservative Party
:19:49. > :19:54.which is the Prime Minister and exactly what she's said. She's said
:19:55. > :19:58.that workers' rites currently inshrined under EU law will be
:19:59. > :20:04.coming imported wholesale to the United Kingdom. With modifications.
:20:05. > :20:08.They'll be maintain and protected. She's said they can be built upon
:20:09. > :20:12.and extended. Let's not fear monger. She's been absolutely categorically
:20:13. > :20:18.clear. Let's not try and win votes off the back of this, Len, yes? It's
:20:19. > :20:25.about protecting workers, it's about protecting workers' rites. She's
:20:26. > :20:29.quiveren that assurance. I'll fight for my members and workers' rights.
:20:30. > :20:31.She's talked about modifications. Let's clarify
:20:32. > :20:40.ALL SPEAK AT ONCE. Hang on. What is modifications? You
:20:41. > :20:51.are the one that's making the... She said. She said it. You can't give us
:20:52. > :20:56.any examples. The Prime Minister initially said she was going to lift
:20:57. > :21:02.employment law out of Europe and put it in to domestic legislation. Music
:21:03. > :21:06.to my ears. She then said, we lift the laws, put them into domestic
:21:07. > :21:12.legislation with some modifications. Can I read this out to you? Len,
:21:13. > :21:16.you've had your turn. A as we translate the body of European law
:21:17. > :21:19.into domestic ing arelayingses, we'll ensure workers' rights are
:21:20. > :21:22.fully protected and maintained. Stop scaremongering. It's not
:21:23. > :21:30.scaremongering. APPLAUSE.
:21:31. > :21:36.Len, you've had your say. You, mam? Len says that our workers' rights
:21:37. > :21:40.aren't the best in the world. However, everybody from all over the
:21:41. > :21:48.world wants to come and work in the UK so they must be good. I'll read a
:21:49. > :21:52.quote back to Ruth. We are clear about what we want from Europe. We
:21:53. > :21:56.say yes to the single market. That was the manifesto that your Prime
:21:57. > :21:59.Minister and you stood on in the last election. That is the manifesto
:22:00. > :22:05.that the Prime Minister is busy ripping up without having been
:22:06. > :22:13.elected herself as she goes about these negotiations about Brexit.
:22:14. > :22:16.There is a whole host of issues from the single market to raising
:22:17. > :22:19.national insurance contributions. She's already in the very short time
:22:20. > :22:23.she's been in office gone back on her word. I think there is another
:22:24. > :22:27.reason nobody on this panel has raised yet, why we should be
:22:28. > :22:30.seriously concerned about the profoundly undemocratic nature of
:22:31. > :22:36.the great repeal Bill. Yes it's true that the Prime Minister is planning
:22:37. > :22:40.to take 40 years of laws that we've negotiated with our European union
:22:41. > :22:45.counterparts and transcribed them into this bill but she's also giving
:22:46. > :22:49.herself as part of this process huge sweeping powers to make
:22:50. > :22:52.retrospective changes to that legislation with virtually no
:22:53. > :22:57.scrutiny. The upshot of this is that when she and her Tory ministers go
:22:58. > :23:01.off to negotiate trade deals with people like China and the United
:23:02. > :23:06.States, all it will take is for those Governments to say to her,
:23:07. > :23:09.scrap those rights and we'll give you your trade deal and she will
:23:10. > :23:15.have given herself the power to do it. I say this - she's got a mandate
:23:16. > :23:19.to leave the EU and it's right now that we respect that and that we
:23:20. > :23:23.move on and work out how to get the best teal for Britain. This
:23:24. > :23:32.unelected Prime Minister has absolutely no mandate to drive down
:23:33. > :23:42.the living standards, jobs and living conditions. Do you want to
:23:43. > :23:45.answer? The Prime Minister has laid out what it is she wants to achieve.
:23:46. > :23:49.She's said in the first instance she'll take all of the European law
:23:50. > :23:53.that does exist and create it into UK law so there is no holes in
:23:54. > :23:59.our... Sorry, I was thinking of the single market. Lisa said she was on
:24:00. > :24:04.record as saying... It's in the Tory party manifesto. Gave her her
:24:05. > :24:08.mandate to govern. 17 .5 million people voted to leave the European
:24:09. > :24:12.Union OK. Now, in large part, not everybody, but in large part, much
:24:13. > :24:16.of that was based on changes to immigration. The other 27 nations
:24:17. > :24:23.have said that to stay part of the single market, the four freedoms,
:24:24. > :24:28.which includes free movement of people are indiv Isible. The Prime
:24:29. > :24:31.Minister said she'll seek a free trade agreement with the European
:24:32. > :24:36.Union so we are able to export and trade with the other member states.
:24:37. > :24:41.Why should we believe that? You, there? It said in the papers today
:24:42. > :24:46.they are going to push up to 1,000 pieces of legislation through
:24:47. > :24:48.without scrutiny. I'm concerned the Conservatives will have sole
:24:49. > :24:51.authority to push the pieces of legislation through.
:24:52. > :24:55.APPLAUSE. Paul Nuttall, are you in favour of
:24:56. > :25:00.the repatriation and the legislation without scrutiny? Well, obviously
:25:01. > :25:06.without democratic scrutiny, it causes concern. However, David Davis
:25:07. > :25:11.has made it perfectly clear that those pieces of legislation, they'll
:25:12. > :25:14.just be technical changes in terms of taking European Union terms out
:25:15. > :25:18.of, for example, European Parliament, European Council and
:25:19. > :25:21.what not. How do you know they'll be technical and won't slip in other
:25:22. > :25:26.things? I'm going on the word of David Davis on this, but the point
:25:27. > :25:29.Lisa made before about the Conservatives breaking a manifesto
:25:30. > :25:33.pledge in 2015 of keeping us in the single market, I just don't buy it
:25:34. > :25:37.because the world is a very different place now, people voted to
:25:38. > :25:41.leave the European Union, they knew they were voting to leave the single
:25:42. > :25:44.market. David Cameron said voting to leave the EU means leaving the
:25:45. > :25:49.single market. Osborne said the same. Michael Gove said the same.
:25:50. > :25:53.Boris Johnson said the same. Total rewriting of history. It's not. Even
:25:54. > :25:57.in the leaflet the Government sent to every single household at the
:25:58. > :26:03.cost of ?9 million to the taxpayer, it said quite clearly, leaving the
:26:04. > :26:05.European Union means leaving the single market.
:26:06. > :26:11.APPLAUSE. Kate? Look, these Henry VIII laws
:26:12. > :26:15.which is what they are being called where the Government is bringing
:26:16. > :26:25.over legislation but change it slightly because we may not have a
:26:26. > :26:27.law with the same name, there is no functioning opposition and nobody
:26:28. > :26:34.will be held to account. APPLAUSE.
:26:35. > :26:38.Unless you want to abandon every piece of EU legislation and start
:26:39. > :26:41.from scratch it would be incredibly dangerous to the workers' rights,
:26:42. > :26:45.you have to bring them over and change them. The big point is that
:26:46. > :26:49.you will now have the ability, if you don't like the way they are
:26:50. > :26:53.being changed or if you think the Government is making too many
:26:54. > :26:56.liberties, you get to vote and change it. How? In the general
:26:57. > :27:00.election. There is no general election. There is no functioning
:27:01. > :27:07.opposition. Len McCluskey, do you have a functioning opposition? You
:27:08. > :27:11.have given 15 months to jeer bin to change his ways -- Jeremy Corbyn 15
:27:12. > :27:17.months to change his ways? I said baize Jeremy Corbyn is the only
:27:18. > :27:22.political litre I've ever met, including unfortunately people on
:27:23. > :27:25.this platform who don't have an ego, I've indicated that Jeremy himself
:27:26. > :27:29.would be someone who'd want to look at the situation in say 15 months'
:27:30. > :27:35.time. Hang on, before you leave that, why do you want to wait 15
:27:36. > :27:38.months? Because we are talking about Jeremy Corbyn being elected by
:27:39. > :27:45.landslide victory on two occasions now. My union, my executive
:27:46. > :27:47.supporters, the policy conference with over 1,000 delegates
:27:48. > :27:52.overwhelmingly supported him a second time. Why? Because what his
:27:53. > :27:56.views and policies are coincide with what Unite wants. He's
:27:57. > :28:00.anti-austerity, so are my members. He's in favour of an industrial
:28:01. > :28:04.strategy. What is with this 15 months business? He wants to save
:28:05. > :28:10.the National Health Service. So do my members. But what happens 15
:28:11. > :28:14.months from now? I'll tell you what. He has been unmercifully attacked
:28:15. > :28:19.day in day out by the right-wing media since he was elected. But I
:28:20. > :28:24.want to remind everyone, your audience and viewers at home, first
:28:25. > :28:27.of all, the problems in the Labour Party didn't start with Jeremy
:28:28. > :28:31.Corbyn being elected, they started 20 years ago when we started to lose
:28:32. > :28:37.the support of ordinary working people. I would make this point.
:28:38. > :28:41.Before the disastrous coup that happened last summer, the opinion
:28:42. > :28:46.polls, Labour were neck and neck. One thing is clear. The Britishlike
:28:47. > :28:50.rat will not vote for a party that is divided and so the message within
:28:51. > :28:54.the Labour Party, the Parliamentary Labour Party and the rest of the
:28:55. > :28:58.party is that we have to unite, unite behind policies. I think you
:28:59. > :29:07.have made the point. Sorry to stop you. See if a decent honest man can
:29:08. > :29:08.break through this horrible media barrier to put those points.
:29:09. > :29:16.APPLAUSE. All right. This horrible, horrible
:29:17. > :29:19.media barrier, as you put it, also included Lisa Nandy leaving the
:29:20. > :29:22.Shadow Cabinet and supporting somebody else for the leadership. So
:29:23. > :29:27.what do you say? Tubb obvious that I don't agree with Len. We have had
:29:28. > :29:32.the leadership contest -- it's obvious. We were on different sides
:29:33. > :29:35.in the debate and I certainly don't agree that we were doing well in the
:29:36. > :29:41.opinion polls before I left the Shadow Cabinet. I think there is a
:29:42. > :29:44.responsibility on us all to do better, to be really honest with
:29:45. > :29:47.you, not without being an opposition to the Government but providing a
:29:48. > :29:50.clear alternative. What I would like to say to you is this, there is
:29:51. > :29:55.quite a narrative developing in British politics at the moment which
:29:56. > :29:57.I think is quite lazy and I think is quite dangerous, that there is no
:29:58. > :30:01.real opposition to this Government at the moment. I have to say this,
:30:02. > :30:06.that that is not what I see when I go down to Parliament on a weekly
:30:07. > :30:10.basis because in the last few weeks, I've seen Labour MPs working with
:30:11. > :30:13.MPs from all of the different political parties, dragging the
:30:14. > :30:17.Government against their will into Parliament to hold them to account
:30:18. > :30:22.on issues on everything from Brexit to the National Health Service. We
:30:23. > :30:26.have worked with SNP MPs, we have worked with liberal MPs, we have
:30:27. > :30:30.worked with backbench Tory MPs, a small handful of whom occasionally
:30:31. > :30:33.find a conscience, and we have worked with much bigger groups of
:30:34. > :30:42.people outside including Len's Trade Union. That is how we win.
:30:43. > :30:47.I'm interested in Len who is a believer in Jeremy Corbyn talking
:30:48. > :30:52.about opinion polls. Today, Jeremy Corbyn's been in office abouts 18
:30:53. > :30:56.months. 18 months into Ed Miliband's leadership the Labour Party was
:30:57. > :30:59.polling 44% and it was 10% ahead of the Tories it went on to lose the
:31:00. > :31:06.next election. Today the Labour Party is polling at 26% and it is 18
:31:07. > :31:12.points behind the Tory party. So that's the size of the drop off that
:31:13. > :31:16.there has been in Labour. You might think Because of divisions. It's
:31:17. > :31:21.because of lack of leadership. You might think I love this. I don't.
:31:22. > :31:26.Yes, I'm a Tory but a democrat. The Labour Party is having a disservice
:31:27. > :31:30.to itself by keeping Jeremy Corbyn in place a disservice to our country
:31:31. > :31:33.and democracy. It relies upon the idea if the Government falls there
:31:34. > :31:38.is a Government in waiting ready to go. It relies on that tension
:31:39. > :31:41.between Government and Opposition to walk a line. I hear a new coming
:31:42. > :31:47.person in the Labour Party that will be the next leader. Whether it's
:31:48. > :31:51.Clive Lewis or Lisa Nandy. Do something about it and get in there.
:31:52. > :31:56.If it's not going to be you, back someone else. This country needs a
:31:57. > :32:00.new Labour Party leader. APPLAUS That is the I think ringing
:32:01. > :32:04.endorsement I need like a hole in the head, to be honest. I just
:32:05. > :32:10.spoiled it for you. The woman in the second row from the back. I have the
:32:11. > :32:14.greatest sympathy for Lisa I think you're in a Government you dwoont to
:32:15. > :32:20.be part of it. For Len saying Jeremy Corbyn not having an ego. The Labour
:32:21. > :32:24.Party is an absolute disgrace it's fine standing by policies wanting to
:32:25. > :32:29.support our NHS if you are never going to get elected it's pointless.
:32:30. > :32:33.I'm a paid up Labour Party he member and it's absolute disgrace to see
:32:34. > :32:39.the state of Labour at the moment. The man in blue. The Labour Party is
:32:40. > :32:44.a total disgrace. It's not doing the job it is being paid for nor is
:32:45. > :32:53.Jeremy Corbyn. Len say it is will take 15 months to sort him out. Will
:32:54. > :32:56.it be 15 months to have a Brexit to remove Jeremy Corbyn from the Labour
:32:57. > :33:02.Party? The woman there. Is it time that David Miliband came back? Is
:33:03. > :33:07.that what you would like to see? Not personally, no. Why do you suggest
:33:08. > :33:28.it then? Spicing things up. Destroy Labour or help them? I think they
:33:29. > :33:29.are doing a good enough job of destroying themselves at the moment?
:33:30. > :33:30.Domestic politics, another question. Before we go to this question.
:33:31. > :33:32.Question Time will be in Gillingham next week. We were going to be in
:33:33. > :33:34.Maidstone. If you were thinking of coming to Maidstone think again, go
:33:35. > :33:37.over the motorway and come to Gillingham. That is next week. There
:33:38. > :33:39.is a pause for Easter. We will be in Oxford on the 27th April. The
:33:40. > :33:41.details on the screen. I will give them at the end. If you are in
:33:42. > :33:49.Gillingham or in that area and want to come, this is your chance. Let us
:33:50. > :33:56.have a question from Hani Cox. With no MPs and Brexit achieved, is Ukip
:33:57. > :34:03.finished? Your turn, Paul, to take the rap.
:34:04. > :34:06.APPLAUSE. He lost Douglas Carswell, he has nos MPs. Leader of a party
:34:07. > :34:11.that has no MPs in the House of Commons even though he is an MP? All
:34:12. > :34:20.right, you don't have to repeat it! At least my own parliamentary party
:34:21. > :34:26.is united! Look, Ukip doesn't need an MP to be influential. OK. Let's
:34:27. > :34:30.not forget back in January 2013 Ukip forced the then British Prime
:34:31. > :34:34.Minister, David Cameron, into giving a referendum he never wanted to give
:34:35. > :34:37.it. He only gave that referendum because Ukip was chomping at the
:34:38. > :34:41.heels of the Conservative Party going up in the polls doing well in
:34:42. > :34:45.local elections and we forced that issue without having Ukip back sides
:34:46. > :34:49.in the House of Commons. We will continue to influence politics. We
:34:50. > :34:54.will continue to be the guard dogs of Brexit in an attempt to ensure we
:34:55. > :34:58.get the Brexit people voted for on June 23rd. We believe we have great
:34:59. > :35:02.opportunities going forward, moving into Labour working-class areas. We
:35:03. > :35:06.are speaking before about Jeremy Corbyn and his Labour Party. We feel
:35:07. > :35:12.they don't represent working people any more. There is a huge bank of
:35:13. > :35:17.patriotic working people who feel, no affinity, with a guy who says
:35:18. > :35:21.nice things about the ire ya or a Shadow Home Secretary who thinks
:35:22. > :35:24.anyone who voted Brexit is a racist. We have great opportunities. We are
:35:25. > :35:31.a 12% in the opinion polls. Membership continues - 10%. No, 12%
:35:32. > :35:35.yesterday. 10% this week. One point behind the Liberal Democrats. Whose
:35:36. > :35:41.poll? I think it was YouGov yesterday. It was 10%? A different
:35:42. > :35:45.one then polls, if you believe them. You live and die by the polls. We
:35:46. > :35:51.have big elections coming up in May. I really do believe that you haven't
:35:52. > :35:54.seen the end of Ukip. I have read our awe bit are you so many times we
:35:55. > :36:01.always come back and we always come back stronger. What is your view? I
:36:02. > :36:05.think they are finished. Paul Nuttall you said yes I agree with
:36:06. > :36:12.everything Theresa May said. What is the point of Ukip? He said that
:36:13. > :36:16.today actually. I have to come back on that. This is really important.
:36:17. > :36:19.Is it? Yes, I do agree with everything Theresa May said. What we
:36:20. > :36:23.know about Theresa May is she is always very good at talking the
:36:24. > :36:27.talk, when it comes to walking the walk she always fails. Look at her
:36:28. > :36:32.record as Home Secretary. Ruth Davidson, thank you. I hope it's the
:36:33. > :36:37.end of Ukip, I really do. I'm listening to Paul here talking about
:36:38. > :36:42.we are the guard dogs of Brexit we come back and we come back stronger.
:36:43. > :36:46.You have lost your only MP. You lost a by-election in what you said was
:36:47. > :36:51.the Brexit capital of Britain. It's time to put it to bed. You have a
:36:52. > :36:55.honeymoon at the moment. It's the longest honeymoon in the history of
:36:56. > :37:00.politics, actually. That honeymoon won't last. Politics will come back
:37:01. > :37:06.- I'm not waking up next to you in the morning, Paul, I'll tell you
:37:07. > :37:12.that. As soon as she back slides on Brexit I believe she will barter
:37:13. > :37:15.things away. What is the backbone of Ukip? When I think of a divided
:37:16. > :37:19.Labour Party I can make guesses to what they will agree upon.
:37:20. > :37:25.Redistribution, to some extent, for the Tories it's similar. Low-taxes,
:37:26. > :37:28.business freedoms, to some extent. We Ukip, post-Brexit it's hard to
:37:29. > :37:32.know what that is unless they are going to become the anti-immigration
:37:33. > :37:38.party. That platform alone will not do well in the UK. It's ridiculous
:37:39. > :37:42.to think that Ukip is the party of workers' rights. The SNP get caught
:37:43. > :37:46.up in these grand speeches about independence they forget about
:37:47. > :37:53.policies that govern on a day-to-day basis. Fundamentally, I don't see
:37:54. > :37:56.them sticking around. All right. Ukip seems to be getting into
:37:57. > :38:12.trouble until a lot of different ways. Yesterday Neil Hamilton said
:38:13. > :38:20.the... Suicide if they suffered as a result of Brexit. You, sir. Paul,
:38:21. > :38:27.you have lost your only MP. You have lost your cloth cap. There is no
:38:28. > :38:32.future in it for you. Len. I agree with the young man at the back. I
:38:33. > :38:41.think Ukip is finished. Ukip is a pressure group. The only two things
:38:42. > :38:47.that you can think of it is they wanted out of Europe. We are out of
:38:48. > :38:50.of Europe and foreigners are at fault for everything. Kate is
:38:51. > :38:55.right,let idea that Ukip represent the working-class people of this
:38:56. > :38:59.nation is an absolute joke. It's unions who represent workers. It's
:39:00. > :39:03.Ukip who use workers. I'm going to put a challenge to you Paul. Go on.
:39:04. > :39:08.I wouldn't like the audience or viewers at home to believe that Paul
:39:09. > :39:20.Nuttall represents my great city of Liverpool. A city that has for
:39:21. > :39:36.decades and decades welcomed people from all over the world. So I
:39:37. > :39:41.challenge be you to stand in Liverpool at the next election. Not
:39:42. > :39:44.only will you not win, you will lose (inaudible) # A rhetorical
:39:45. > :39:49.challenge. I stood in limp time and time, I live in Liverpool. They
:39:50. > :39:53.always rejected you. Liverpool is a safe Labour city. Ukip have a big
:39:54. > :39:59.future going forward. We are the only party who stand up - Sorry.
:40:00. > :40:02.Nobody is the party of working people right now. I mean, it's
:40:03. > :40:05.certainly not Labour. They talk about the cost of living, but all
:40:06. > :40:09.the policies that they want to bring in will probably up your cost of
:40:10. > :40:16.living. The Tories are - Scrapping zero-hours. ?10 minimum wage. You
:40:17. > :40:24.want to get rid of jobs. Through zero-hours. Coming from a right-wing
:40:25. > :40:31.think-tank like yours... Looking at the number of people signing up to
:40:32. > :40:36.unions between 16 and 35 it's tiny 17%, 25-34, 5%, 16-25. Let us move
:40:37. > :40:41.on. Lisa nannedy has not had a word to say about Ukip. I haven't got a
:40:42. > :40:45.good word to say. I think there is a real problem for Ukip because they
:40:46. > :40:52.were a party that was very clearly held together by this real anger and
:40:53. > :40:55.opposition to the European Union. I've sat on platforms with Paul and
:40:56. > :40:59.many of his colleagues over the years and I've heard every single
:41:00. > :41:04.question they have been asked - how would you protect Sure Start and
:41:05. > :41:08.rebuilding the NHS. Their mantra, we will leave the European Union. They
:41:09. > :41:12.have little to say. . That is what we have seen. Over the last few
:41:13. > :41:16.months we have seen that not only do they have little to say about not
:41:17. > :41:21.protecting our public services they have little tole say about how we
:41:22. > :41:25.build a Britain post-Brexit that is an absolute disgrace, Paul. Are they
:41:26. > :41:29.finished in your view? If we drive this country's economy off a cliff
:41:30. > :41:32.and crash out of the EU in two years' time with no deal, this is
:41:33. > :41:37.working people's jobs. It's their lives. It's their families and
:41:38. > :41:40.public services. You have been one of the leading voices driving us
:41:41. > :41:44.into this position o. You at least have a responsibility to have
:41:45. > :41:51.something to say to help put it right. We are going on. Sorry.
:41:52. > :41:55.Michael Johnson, please. Yes. Sergeant Blackman, Marine A, is
:41:56. > :42:01.about to be released. Does the country really understand the nasty,
:42:02. > :42:05.harsh reality of modern war? Are you in favour of his being released?
:42:06. > :42:32.Absolutely. I think he was stitched up. I think it's justice being done
:42:33. > :42:37.right now. Ruth Davidson. Honestly I don't believe if you haven't been in
:42:38. > :42:37.conflict you can't understand the nature of conflict. We are so far
:42:38. > :42:38.now from the society that was of my generation where there was a number
:42:39. > :42:39.of people who had been in conflict and who understood it and were able
:42:40. > :42:39.to have those conversations, that golden thread of ex-service
:42:40. > :42:43.personnel that we often seek to misunderstand. I can't comment
:42:44. > :42:49.knowledgeably on that case. I don't think anyone that wasn't in the
:42:50. > :42:59.court room can comment knowledgeably on it or anyone not in his platoon
:43:00. > :43:00.too can comment on it. Can see. When we look at some of the stuff that sl
:43:01. > :43:00.happening in Northern Ireland and other cases with Iraq and others, we
:43:01. > :43:07.need to if we are asking our young men and women to do desperate things
:43:08. > :43:09.in unbelievable circumstances and make life-and-death decisions, yes
:43:10. > :43:13.they are trained for, they weigh heavily on them, they need to know
:43:14. > :43:23.they have protections when they come and won't be chased 10, 20 years
:43:24. > :43:29.after the fact. That's away from Marine A and whether that was a
:43:30. > :43:34.stitch-up. Len. The Geneva Convention is extremely important.
:43:35. > :43:40.It's there to make certain that during conflict and war any criminal
:43:41. > :43:45.behaviour will be dealt with. But it is the truth, I don't think anybody
:43:46. > :43:51.is going to be unhappy about Marine A. His wife who has exposed the
:43:52. > :43:57.trauma and, it must be unimaginable, the type of trauma that our
:43:58. > :44:04.soldiers, our armed forces are exposed to and what they see. I
:44:05. > :44:08.think raises a serious issue about mental health. Ruth, you have done
:44:09. > :44:12.work on this yourself. I'm hoping that this will lead to the
:44:13. > :44:16.Government looking at the whole question of mental health, which is
:44:17. > :44:21.becoming more and more an issue. I want to make this point as well.
:44:22. > :44:28.Most wars are wrong, but it's the politicians who are to blame for
:44:29. > :44:34.wars, not our armed forces. The reality here is that we should make
:44:35. > :44:38.certain that many of the cases we hear about of ex-soldiers, living on
:44:39. > :44:42.the streets now, unable to cope because of mental stress, is
:44:43. > :44:47.something we need to start to take seriously. In my own union we've
:44:48. > :44:56.currently embarked upon a number of projects. I met with 20 companies
:44:57. > :45:01.and our shop stewards because of mental health stress developing. Out
:45:02. > :45:04.of this I hope will come some good. I hope politicians won't be so quick
:45:05. > :45:09.to jump to war and send our young men and women into conflicts that,
:45:10. > :45:56.as you rightly say, are now unimaginable the traumas they have
:45:57. > :45:57.to go through. All right. Marine A had a murder conviction reduced to
:45:58. > :45:57.manslaughter. He was used as a political pawn. If the circumstances
:45:58. > :45:58.had been different he actually saved those 24 people who would have been
:45:59. > :45:58.called out to rescue the Taliban fighter. I think it was a mercy
:45:59. > :45:59.killing by shooting that man on the ground. He would have died anyway.
:46:00. > :46:21.The problem is, what would Kate Andrews? I don't believe in
:46:22. > :46:25.trial by media. None of us were part of the jury or the judge. So if this
:46:26. > :46:29.new evidence came forward that Marine A was very sick and they've
:46:30. > :46:32.decided to downgrade his sentence to manslaughter, then that is it, we
:46:33. > :46:36.have to believe that is the right thing to do, we have to support the
:46:37. > :46:39.justice system in that way. To the larger question about whether or not
:46:40. > :46:43.we should reduce our expectations for soldiers or keep them incredibly
:46:44. > :46:49.high, I mean obviously it's the latter. What happened in Westminster
:46:50. > :46:53.last week was such a testament to the British people that medics were
:46:54. > :46:56.taking care of the attacker and the terrorist next to his victims
:46:57. > :47:01.because of the standards of this country. We don't leave people
:47:02. > :47:05.behind. In the case of Marine A, it's the biggest disappointment that
:47:06. > :47:09.we let him down in his sickness and weren't there for him to the wider
:47:10. > :47:10.point of lowering our standards, never, that's not what Britain's
:47:11. > :47:18.about. APPLAUSE.
:47:19. > :47:23.I believe that if he was in that environment and under the stresses
:47:24. > :47:27.and the illness that he had, I think once you've been shot at, he was
:47:28. > :47:32.quite within his right to shoot back, maybe not how he did it but of
:47:33. > :47:37.course shoot back. All right, the man behind you? I mean it comes down
:47:38. > :47:41.to the events in Westminster last week, does the media not have a
:47:42. > :47:43.bigger responsibility, you know, we are exposing people's lives and
:47:44. > :47:48.national security is at risk based on some of the coverage, I thought
:47:49. > :47:52.it was disgusting, based on how much we need to know about how Theresa
:47:53. > :47:55.May was led out of Parliament, do we really need to know that. We made
:47:56. > :48:04.this guy a martyr last week. The woman up there? Or a man, I can't
:48:05. > :48:07.quite see. Surely the Government should be looking after our
:48:08. > :48:10.soldiers, they are going to war for us, we have had people in Northern
:48:11. > :48:16.Ireland currently under investigation, it's terrible. The
:48:17. > :48:22.Geneva convention? We should apply it but Blackman should have been
:48:23. > :48:25.looked after. Lisa Nandy? Just on the latest point there, that that
:48:26. > :48:29.gentleman made over there, one of the things I found most troubling
:48:30. > :48:34.about the aftermath of the Westminster attacks was the images
:48:35. > :48:39.circulated, not just on social media but amongst mainstream media as well
:48:40. > :48:44.about which clearly identified victims. If you'd known known some
:48:45. > :48:49.of the people, you would recognise the clothing. The idea that we'd do
:48:50. > :48:52.that to families is horrendous. On the question about Marine A, I think
:48:53. > :48:56.this case raises troubling questions about how we treat our Armed Forces
:48:57. > :49:01.because the picture that emerged from the court case, and I agree
:49:02. > :49:04.with Kate and Ruth that we can't know the full details about having
:49:05. > :49:11.been privy to that information. The picture that emerged was of a man
:49:12. > :49:17.who had a recognisable treatable condition who'd been left on the
:49:18. > :49:20.frontline in a situation of serious, extreme stress, with what appears to
:49:21. > :49:25.be very little oversight or support either. If that is true, then that
:49:26. > :49:29.is an absolute disgrace, not just for that man and his family, but
:49:30. > :49:34.also for all of the members of the armed force who is Len rightly says
:49:35. > :49:37.rely on the Geneva convention for their protection, to protect them
:49:38. > :49:42.from retaliation attacks and to protect them when they are held
:49:43. > :49:45.prisoner and to uphold the good name of our Armed Forces. It's right that
:49:46. > :49:48.the process around the court case couldn't do anything to address
:49:49. > :49:53.that, but our Government can. Now that this case is over, we have to
:49:54. > :49:56.make sure that something positive comes out of what has been a
:49:57. > :50:00.terrible, terrible case for everybody concerned and that we
:50:01. > :50:08.support our troops better and uphold the reputation of our Armed Forces.
:50:09. > :50:13.APPLAUSE. Paul, briefly? I I pretty much agree
:50:14. > :50:16.with everything that has been said around this I believe that. There
:50:17. > :50:22.was a clear lack of leadership out in Afghanistan. I feel very sorry
:50:23. > :50:26.for Marine A. He obviously had psychological issues as a result of
:50:27. > :50:30.what he seen but it does paint the bigger picture which is we don't
:50:31. > :50:34.look after our boys and girls when they return home. 7,000 veterans
:50:35. > :50:37.slept rough last night. It's a disgrace, it needs to be sorted and
:50:38. > :50:43.I call on the Government to do something about it.
:50:44. > :50:48.APPLAUSE. We have got time to get this
:50:49. > :50:52.question in from Christine Kay, please?
:50:53. > :50:57.Is the recent health England decision to charge for glue tonne
:50:58. > :51:02.free foods and other products the beginnings of pay-as-you-go NHS?
:51:03. > :51:06.That is right, that is Simon Stevens saying GPs won't prescribe certain
:51:07. > :51:10.medicines that you can get cheaply in supermarkets. Is this the
:51:11. > :51:14.beginning of pay-as-you-go NHS? We have five minutes to talk about
:51:15. > :51:21.this, we talk about the NHS quite a lot but let's go around the table,
:51:22. > :51:27.first? You? The review has identified a real problem which is
:51:28. > :51:31.that it appears that we are spending more on prescribing drugs than we
:51:32. > :51:34.would spend if we just simply got people to buy them over-the-counter.
:51:35. > :51:39.But identifying the problem doesn't mean that we then leap to the right
:51:40. > :51:42.solution and it seems to me there is a real problem with the solution in
:51:43. > :51:48.this case which is that we are then asking people essentially to pay for
:51:49. > :51:53.prescriptions, many of whom would have been entitled to them for free
:51:54. > :51:56.as prescriptions. Some of these things sound very frivolous, but
:51:57. > :52:02.medical hand creams for example, if you've got a skin condition, can be
:52:03. > :52:06.incredibly important. I'm worried this represents the thin end of the
:52:07. > :52:08.wedge. The truth is that we are not funding our National Health Service
:52:09. > :52:11.properly, whatever the Government says, and we mustn't introduce
:52:12. > :52:19.rationing by the back door. APPLAUSE.
:52:20. > :52:23.Kate Andrews? I don't think that sunscreen and fish oils are a
:52:24. > :52:26.legitimate prescription on the NHS when people are being denied cancer
:52:27. > :52:30.treatment because they're too expensive.
:52:31. > :52:34.APPLAUSE. There is a very serious problem here
:52:35. > :52:40.in Britain with the National Health Service. It's crumbling around us
:52:41. > :52:45.all and stories like this and the head of the NHS coming out saying
:52:46. > :52:49.crackdowns on band-aids and indigestion tablets is going to save
:52:50. > :52:53.the NHS is borderline satire. The UK is not unique in its universal
:52:54. > :52:57.delivery of health carefree at the point of access, you do not pay if
:52:58. > :53:03.you can't afford it, it's not unique in that sense at all but it is
:53:04. > :53:08.unique in the sense that nobody else has adopted it. The UK needs to not
:53:09. > :53:12.look to America but to France, Europe, Belgium and Switzerland and
:53:13. > :53:15.Germany where cancer patients are significantly more likely to survive
:53:16. > :53:18.where your likeliness to be able to see a doctor in a good amount of
:53:19. > :53:22.time is through the roof. It's time for a real conversation about
:53:23. > :53:25.reform. If that includes spending more money fine but not on a broken
:53:26. > :53:29.system. I speak to the politicians on the stage tonight that this
:53:30. > :53:34.conversation has not had enough and I believe it's finally time because
:53:35. > :53:38.the system is crumbling around us and something needs to change.
:53:39. > :53:43.APPLAUSE. You, there? I think the erosion of
:53:44. > :53:47.the NHS in the UK in particular the north of England has already long
:53:48. > :53:52.ago begun. I mean, for instance, in Whitehaven, which is 40 miles from
:53:53. > :53:56.here, anyone in emergency situations or a mother in a desperate situation
:53:57. > :54:02.having a baby in an ambulance faces a 40-mile journey of an hour to
:54:03. > :54:05.Carlisle to have that baby in a consultant-led maternity department.
:54:06. > :54:09.Now, that is not carefree at the point of need for people in Cumbria.
:54:10. > :54:15.We need to protect our NHS and I'm sorry but that's not going to come
:54:16. > :54:18.from vale vatisation, it's going to come from investment --
:54:19. > :54:20.privatisation, it's going to come from investment.
:54:21. > :54:25.APPLAUSE. Paul? Yes, I mean obviously there is
:54:26. > :54:30.a worry that it's the beginning of pay-as-you-go for the NHS. If you
:54:31. > :54:34.talk about glue tonne free foods, they're quite expensive, although I
:54:35. > :54:37.do tend to agree that you shouldn't get sunscreen or cod liver oil on
:54:38. > :54:44.the NHS or anything like that. The problem we have got with the NHS is
:54:45. > :54:50.that it needs investment and the other problem is that Labour signed
:54:51. > :54:56.us up to the crazy PFI deals. Every pound out of every ten is going to
:54:57. > :55:03.pay off the debt... Its very existence... I won't take lectures
:55:04. > :55:09.from someone who has spent their career trying to... Hold on. Ruth
:55:10. > :55:14.Davidson? I think I take the point up there from the woman talking
:55:15. > :55:20.about a 40-mile round trip, in Scotland, with Caithness, it's over
:55:21. > :55:23.100 miles. Let's talk about the issue Christine raised? The issue is
:55:24. > :55:28.to take a lot of the decisions out of the hands of politicians so you
:55:29. > :55:31.don't have hysterical he shade she said which is what this is beginning
:55:32. > :55:35.to turn into on this bloody panel. That is why you have ideas that
:55:36. > :55:38.National Institute for Clinical Excellence making decisions about
:55:39. > :55:41.what is the best course of treatment for people to be made available free
:55:42. > :55:45.at the point of delivery. That is why actually I'm not a clinician,
:55:46. > :55:49.these sorts of decisions should be taken out of the hands of elected
:55:50. > :55:52.politicians and put in the hands of people with the qualifications in
:55:53. > :55:58.order to make the decisions to keep the NHS best. Is it the beginning of
:55:59. > :56:02.pay-as-you-go? At the moment you are already paying for prescriptions in
:56:03. > :56:08.England an Wales at a level that is different to... Different across the
:56:09. > :56:12.country. If for example you are prescribed something that costs less
:56:13. > :56:14.than a prescription, you pay the prescription cost for it because
:56:15. > :56:19.somebody else is getting a medicine that costs more than the price of a
:56:20. > :56:22.prescription. At the moment, there are already people who're, you know,
:56:23. > :56:26.it's not the cost of the medicine but the cost of the prescription.
:56:27. > :56:30.The young woman at the back is right. Privatisation is well down
:56:31. > :56:35.the road in our National Health Service and what we should be
:56:36. > :56:38.campaigning for is the renalisation of our Public Services, our NHS,
:56:39. > :56:44.with more money. I'll tell you where the money should come from, the
:56:45. > :56:49.money should come from tax avoidance and tax evasion. The super rich and
:56:50. > :56:53.the corporate elite who rob from the Treasury ?40 billion a year.
:56:54. > :57:01.APPLAUSE. Let that... If the Government could
:57:02. > :57:05.only spend half its energy on that instead of attacking ordinary
:57:06. > :57:11.working people 1% pay rise for our NHS people, the very he rose that
:57:12. > :57:14.raced out of -- heroes that raced out of St Thomas' Hospital last week
:57:15. > :57:18.disregarding their own safety to help people told this week that
:57:19. > :57:24.they've got to cut their standard of living. Attack the rich, make them
:57:25. > :57:30.pay their taxes and invest in our National Health Service.
:57:31. > :57:34.APPLAUSE. Ruth, just before we end, a quick
:57:35. > :57:40.answer, is there ?40 billion a year to come from the rich who aren't
:57:41. > :57:44.paying taxes? We are cracking down. Is there ?40 billion 20 today be got
:57:45. > :57:48.out? There's a lot more to be done. How much? I cannot tell you the
:57:49. > :57:54.figure. We have to thenned, sorry, our time is up. -- we have to end
:57:55. > :57:59.there. Sorry, our time is up. That answer. Hangs in the balance.
:58:00. > :58:03.Independent fiscal bodies tell us that. We are not allowed to trust
:58:04. > :58:07.them because they are experts. Not any more. We couldn't trust the
:58:08. > :58:12.experts. We have to stop. Our time is up, sorry. We are in Gillingham
:58:13. > :58:15.next Thursday, not Maidstone but Gillingham. We have the leader of
:58:16. > :58:20.the Liberal Democrats, Tim Farron on the panel, among others. After that,
:58:21. > :58:25.the next programme is in Oxford on April 27th. I hope you can come to
:58:26. > :58:35.Gillingham next week or three weeks later to Oxford. Go to the website,
:58:36. > :58:40.the address is there: Radio 5-5 Lynners, the debate goes on until
:58:41. > :58:48.1am. My thanks to all of you on this panel, to all who came to Carlisle,
:58:49. > :58:49.still here in England and until next Thursday, from Question Time, good
:58:50. > :59:19.night. Marine Le Pen has her eyes
:59:20. > :59:22.on the French presidency. As she tries to distance herself
:59:23. > :59:26.from her party's controversial past,