:00:08. > :00:17.Welcome to Question Time, which tonight comes from Gillingham.
:00:18. > :00:20.And we have a full house tonight. co-leader of the Green
:00:21. > :00:35.Party Jonathan Bartley, Gerard Coyne, running for the
:00:36. > :00:44.leadership of the Unite union, and businesswoman and broadcaster
:00:45. > :00:59.Michelle Dewberry. APPLAUSE.
:01:00. > :01:02.Thank you, and of course you know this well from home, you can take
:01:03. > :01:11.part in the debate either on Facebook, Twitter or text, or push
:01:12. > :01:14.the red button. I have asked the panellists not to speak at too great
:01:15. > :01:27.length because I want you to have the opportunity to -- tonight. Our
:01:28. > :01:32.first question. Labour proposes tax -- taxing private school fees to
:01:33. > :01:40.fund school meals for all children, is this fair? I think this is an
:01:41. > :01:45.example of a half baked Labour gimmick and I think it is misjudged.
:01:46. > :01:50.The evidence behind it is very doubtful. It was piloted in two
:01:51. > :01:55.areas of deprivation, new and Durham, and the expert behind the
:01:56. > :01:58.research said it would be an overstatement to roll it out
:01:59. > :02:03.universally around the country because it would be very expensive.
:02:04. > :02:07.I also don't think it is fair to put VAT on independent schools because
:02:08. > :02:11.many of them will close. About half a million children go to these
:02:12. > :02:16.schools, if they close they will be going to state schools which puts
:02:17. > :02:20.pressure on state schools. I think the Labour Party need to go back to
:02:21. > :02:26.the drawing board, think about how this money can be better used, and
:02:27. > :02:29.getting more teachers and raising standards, and actually think about
:02:30. > :02:37.more effective uses of the money. APPLAUSE.
:02:38. > :02:46.When the Tory leadership campaign was on, you voted for Michael Gove,
:02:47. > :02:56.didn't you? I did. And it was his idea VAT should be put on school
:02:57. > :03:03.fees. Well, I do support Michael Gove in many ways but I do disagree
:03:04. > :03:06.with him on this. The independent sector does provide some good
:03:07. > :03:12.services and we want to encourage them to do more to support smaller
:03:13. > :03:16.schools and state schools, but I don't think imposing VAT on them is
:03:17. > :03:22.the right way to improve standards in all of our schools which is what
:03:23. > :03:27.we really want to see. Tim Farron. In terms of what the money will be
:03:28. > :03:30.spent on, free school meals for children throughout primary
:03:31. > :03:36.education, this is staggering news that the Labour Party had a good
:03:37. > :03:44.idea. I say that because the Liberal Democrats when we were in coalition
:03:45. > :03:51.made sure preschool children do have free school meals. Why are they a
:03:52. > :03:54.good idea? Firstly it increases educational attainment for young
:03:55. > :03:58.children, it also deals with the Tickner of being on free school
:03:59. > :04:06.meals for everybody, plenty of evidence also that coming off free
:04:07. > :04:14.school meals if you take a low-paid job means it is a benefit trap...
:04:15. > :04:18.The question is about putting VAT on private education. I don't think the
:04:19. > :04:22.Labour Party have done their homework. The danger is if you try
:04:23. > :04:25.to raise the money to pay for this from children going to private
:04:26. > :04:30.schools and the outcome is that fewer people go to private schools,
:04:31. > :04:35.there won't be as much money in the system. The real issue is there is 3
:04:36. > :04:39.billion being taken out of our schools and we are losing thousands
:04:40. > :04:46.of teachers in the next three years, that's the priority.
:04:47. > :04:51.APPLAUSE. Actually this idea was in the Green Party manifesto in 2010,
:04:52. > :04:55.and we would go further and remove the charitable status from private
:04:56. > :04:58.schools and make them pay corporation tax, and also a lovely
:04:59. > :05:03.because they are getting huge benefits from teachers in teacher
:05:04. > :05:07.training, then they go to the private schools and the private
:05:08. > :05:13.schools get those teachers for free. It's only right they pay a levy. It
:05:14. > :05:17.is fair, if you give universal free school meals to children you are
:05:18. > :05:22.providing that collective sense, it is important we see education in its
:05:23. > :05:26.broadest sense as communal togetherness, but it also means we
:05:27. > :05:30.can claw back the extra money we need through progressive taxation so
:05:31. > :05:35.the richest may be getting the free school meals but they also pay and
:05:36. > :05:42.it goes back into the system. Universality is an important point.
:05:43. > :05:45.I know some people that send their kids to private school, not many but
:05:46. > :05:53.I know they work really hard to get that money together to give their
:05:54. > :06:00.kids the best education. Diane knows how expensive it is. This means they
:06:01. > :06:07.won't be able to do it, but you work hard for your kids. It is well-known
:06:08. > :06:17.Diane sent her child to private school, what do you make of this? I
:06:18. > :06:21.think it is perfectly fair. And as you say I sent my son to private
:06:22. > :06:26.school and I would have been happy to pay more for the scheme like
:06:27. > :06:31.this. The first thing about universal free school meals is it
:06:32. > :06:35.helps working families, who are just getting by but they are not eligible
:06:36. > :06:41.for free school meals because they are not on benefit. The other thing
:06:42. > :06:45.no one mentions is there are important health benefits. If you go
:06:46. > :06:50.to Sweden, they have completely free school meals and they have much
:06:51. > :06:58.better public health outcomes than we do. Finally, as you have herd, it
:06:59. > :07:02.improves academic outcomes. It is completely fair, very good idea and
:07:03. > :07:06.I think it would prove to be very popular.
:07:07. > :07:12.APPLAUSE. Was it one you stole from the Green
:07:13. > :07:18.Party? Did you steal it from Michael Gove? No, we didn't steal it from
:07:19. > :07:23.anybody, it has been brought in in Islington and Southwark for many
:07:24. > :07:27.years now. We already have this in infant schools because when we were
:07:28. > :07:38.in Government we did it, the main difference is we want to be in
:07:39. > :07:43.power. What I don't understand is why we are having this discussion
:07:44. > :07:46.because surely it is the parents' responsibility to feed their
:07:47. > :07:54.children, not the state. Gerard Coyne. Yes, it is fair, and possibly
:07:55. > :07:58.as one of the few members of this panel that went to comprehensive
:07:59. > :08:02.school, I have never understood why private schools have charitable
:08:03. > :08:07.status. Many are operating like businesses and I think they should
:08:08. > :08:15.be taxed like businesses. The money should be reinvested in the state
:08:16. > :08:19.sector. As a teacher I'm extremely concerned about class sizes and as a
:08:20. > :08:25.parent as well, and I absolutely agree that if you are to tax and
:08:26. > :08:28.make private school education more expensive, unfortunately it is going
:08:29. > :08:34.to punish those parents perhaps unlike Diane who are just affording
:08:35. > :08:38.to send their children to those schools, and therefore they will go
:08:39. > :08:43.into state education. I'm lucky I am in a school that is committed to
:08:44. > :08:50.keeping class sizes low. And you think there would be a real problem?
:08:51. > :08:53.Yes, there's only so many places, people struggling to get their
:08:54. > :08:59.children into schools anyway, it will only increase the pressure. I
:09:00. > :09:08.think VAT on private schools is long overdue, it should have been put in
:09:09. > :09:12.place a long time ago. In terms of whether this is the right way of
:09:13. > :09:16.doing it, when Labour were asked what would be the capital
:09:17. > :09:19.expenditure needed to get all of these private schools with the
:09:20. > :09:23.proper catering facilities to do this, they had no idea of the cost
:09:24. > :09:28.of the capital expenditure so the policy needs a lot more thinking
:09:29. > :09:31.through. I think the real injustice is not taxing the private schools
:09:32. > :09:36.but the fact we have a government which is complacent with children
:09:37. > :09:41.going to school hungry because the parents are not being paid enough.
:09:42. > :09:44.There are plenty of families working maximum hours but they are not being
:09:45. > :09:50.paid enough to feed their children the appropriate amount.
:09:51. > :09:56.APPLAUSE. I am also a teacher, I have been
:09:57. > :10:01.teaching for 17 years now, I teach in the secondary sector. It can be
:10:02. > :10:05.very hard to teach children that have not eaten. The dynamics in the
:10:06. > :10:10.classroom can be seriously affected, you get students who are tired, they
:10:11. > :10:14.fall asleep, that then comes back onto the teacher in terms of us
:10:15. > :10:20.having to motivate the students and get them engaged. Sometimes you try
:10:21. > :10:31.your best to do that but because they have not had breakfast or
:10:32. > :10:39.lunch, it can go the other way and they can become hyperactive.
:10:40. > :10:42.I think there are currently three years of schools that get free
:10:43. > :10:48.school meals and I think it is unfair that only half the school is.
:10:49. > :10:53.The idea behind putting VAT on school fees, which is the point,
:10:54. > :10:57.nobody thinks children should go to school hungry, but the idea is
:10:58. > :11:02.whether that on private education is the right way. I think it is. I
:11:03. > :11:09.think we should go on to another question and have a question from
:11:10. > :11:17.Natasha Khan. What action can we take to prevent the Assad regime
:11:18. > :11:29.executing another chemical attack on their own people?
:11:30. > :11:34.APPLAUSE. Suella Fernandes. I think the images we have seen this week of
:11:35. > :11:40.women and children being killed, shows this is a chemical attack by
:11:41. > :11:45.President Assad, they are unforgettable acts of monstrous
:11:46. > :11:51.brutality which are unforgivable. I'm very pleased the UK is taking a
:11:52. > :11:54.lead in trying to get the international community to take
:11:55. > :11:59.action. We have helped to convene an emergency session of the UN Security
:12:00. > :12:05.Council to talk about this, and we have also co-sponsored a UN Security
:12:06. > :12:09.Council resolution to condemn this. I think the international community
:12:10. > :12:15.coming together in this way will send a strong message that Assad has
:12:16. > :12:22.to go. What did you say? That's the microphone to the lady. You haven't
:12:23. > :12:27.answered my question, with all due respect. Statements of condemnation
:12:28. > :12:30.are all very nice, what action can we now take? These people have
:12:31. > :12:47.suffered long enough. APPLAUSE. There are options. Don't
:12:48. > :12:50.forget, in 2013 military action was considered by Parliament against
:12:51. > :12:55.President Assad, but I have to say members of this panel voted against
:12:56. > :12:59.that action and maybe we wouldn't be in this situation if Parliament have
:13:00. > :13:08.secured that action then so we are where we are. Diane Abbott.
:13:09. > :13:15.Of course we want to take action but I have to remind you that Western
:13:16. > :13:22.countries going into the Middle East and countries like Afghanistan
:13:23. > :13:26.trying to stop humanitarian outrages have not been a happy history, and
:13:27. > :13:33.in almost every case there has been more violence and more humanitarian
:13:34. > :13:39.outrages than before they went in. And that's why I wasn't willing to
:13:40. > :13:44.vote for other women's children to go to war in Syria. In the end the
:13:45. > :13:48.only people that Assad is going to listen to are the Russians, and
:13:49. > :14:00.internationally we must put pressure on the Russians to call their state
:14:01. > :14:04.to heal and stop this atrocity. We have had two American presidents,
:14:05. > :14:10.Obama in 2012 saying a red line was chemical weapons, nothing happened,
:14:11. > :14:18.we now have President Trump saying this chemical attack crosses many
:14:19. > :14:23.lines, many, many lines, repeated. It's not funny, it is the way he
:14:24. > :14:26.talks, but you have two presidents saying something should be done. If
:14:27. > :14:29.the UK Government won't take military action, do you think the
:14:30. > :14:38.Americans should? I can't speak for Donald Trump, as
:14:39. > :14:42.you can imagine. Yes, I can imagine. The European Union with Britain...
:14:43. > :14:46.America, people that understand about foreign policy in America know
:14:47. > :14:53.that in the end, only the Russians will pull Assad back and it would be
:14:54. > :14:57.deceiving this audience to say that putting British troops on the ground
:14:58. > :15:02.would have a good end. APPLAUSE.
:15:03. > :15:06.You, Sir? We all laugh at President Trump but maybe he could do some
:15:07. > :15:10.good. He can't be any more disastrous than Obama because it was
:15:11. > :15:13.Obama that withdrew all the troops from Iraq create ago vacuum of
:15:14. > :15:18.power. We have North Korea launching missiles into the ocean now. We have
:15:19. > :15:20.got Isis killing people across Western Europe and Assad
:15:21. > :15:25.slaughtering his own people. How much worse can it get? Militia Snell
:15:26. > :15:29.I don't want the UK to go to military war with Syria. I just
:15:30. > :15:33.don't want the consequences of that, I just don't want that to happen. So
:15:34. > :15:37.a couple of points on this. I think you cannot tell somebody there is a
:15:38. > :15:40.red line and if you cross it do absolutely nothing about it because
:15:41. > :15:43.when you do that, it means that people know that they can act with
:15:44. > :15:48.impunity which is the situation we are in now. So Syria, they're a
:15:49. > :15:51.member of the chemical weapons convention, they're a consequences
:15:52. > :15:57.-- there are consequences that should be happening. For example,
:15:58. > :16:01.the UN Security Council's imposed sanctions and Russia's blocked them
:16:02. > :16:05.seven times now which is absolutely outrageous. Action number one that
:16:06. > :16:08.we should be taking is, we should be following on with the sanctions,
:16:09. > :16:11.Russia have to stop blocking them. That's point one. Point two, we have
:16:12. > :16:15.got an opportunity with Donald Trump, we have a brand-new Trump
:16:16. > :16:20.administration, he can redefine his red lines and make it absolutely
:16:21. > :16:24.clear, this is our red lines and if you break them, there will be
:16:25. > :16:26.consequences, then what you do is follow up with the consequences, end
:16:27. > :16:31.of story. APPLAUSE.
:16:32. > :16:35.Tim Farron I'll come to you in a moment. The American Secretary of
:16:36. > :16:39.State tillerson said this evening that steps are under way to remove
:16:40. > :16:44.Assad, do you have any confidence that the Americans could actually
:16:45. > :16:48.remove? The Kremlin tonight has said that its support for Assad is not
:16:49. > :16:53.unconditional so that is interesting. But Natasha's question
:16:54. > :16:56.is, what will we actually do. Michelle's talked about something
:16:57. > :17:00.that we could and should do. Fundamentally the thing that we
:17:01. > :17:03.could do quickly a UN Resolution is to create a no-fly zone and
:17:04. > :17:07.humanitarian zone within Syria. You could use, included in that mission,
:17:08. > :17:11.UK planes that are already in the region because I absolutely accept,
:17:12. > :17:16.as Diane says, and as others I'm sure believe also, that a unilateral
:17:17. > :17:20.action here by Trump or by the UK and America together would very
:17:21. > :17:26.likely be counterproductive. However, doing nothing would be just
:17:27. > :17:33.as appalling. Is there a possibility that civilians could be killed? Is
:17:34. > :17:36.there an uncertainty about that? Is there an absolute certainty that
:17:37. > :17:41.Assad will continue to murder his own people? And gas children as we
:17:42. > :17:46.saw in the news this morning like the kids who I saw escape from Assad
:17:47. > :17:49.when I met them on Lesbos a few years ago, yes, absolutely that will
:17:50. > :17:52.happen. That's the certainty. The only thing that is unacceptable is
:17:53. > :17:57.that we do nothing. APPLAUSE.
:17:58. > :18:03.OK. You, Sir? Surely part of the rob is the fact that we have a UN which
:18:04. > :18:07.all the panel have mentioned, which is proved over time to be toothless,
:18:08. > :18:12.spineless and never actually achieve anything. We get UN peace-keeping
:18:13. > :18:19.forces, they don't do anything. We get UN Resolutions, we get word of
:18:20. > :18:22.condemnation spoken from the UN but nothing is actually ever... You
:18:23. > :18:27.would rather see what, the Americans answer and the... I'm not sure how
:18:28. > :18:33.exactly you would solve the problem, really, but there needs to be
:18:34. > :18:35.cooperation between international forces and overall, globally
:18:36. > :18:39.accepted international police force that is prepared to go in there and
:18:40. > :18:45.say, if you breach human rights, we will come and get you. All right.
:18:46. > :18:49.Gerard Coyne? Natasha, I think anyone that saw that father putting
:18:50. > :18:54.his two sons and the rest of his family who had died choking to death
:18:55. > :19:00.on souring gas, could not help but want for some action, you know. That
:19:01. > :19:04.is absolutely what everybody in the British public with some of those
:19:05. > :19:08.images would be thinking. The real city that when we look back at 2013
:19:09. > :19:13.and have hindsight on that, there was equally at that time an outrage
:19:14. > :19:18.about the gas attack and an international consensus. There was a
:19:19. > :19:23.lost opportunity around that international consensus and filling
:19:24. > :19:29.that gap was Russia. After that, it happened. The fact that that gap was
:19:30. > :19:33.then taken over by Russia's intervention in support of Assad
:19:34. > :19:39.caused the situation to get worse. What we now have to do is build that
:19:40. > :19:45.international consensus again to make sure that nerve agents like
:19:46. > :19:51.Sarin are never, ever used again. And that is not... But how? That is
:19:52. > :19:56.not necessarily about troops on the ground. That is the point I'm
:19:57. > :19:59.making, lots of words but how? It's not about having troops on the
:20:00. > :20:04.ground but it is about the fact that the United Nations definitely has a
:20:05. > :20:07.role in this. Yes, but it's it'sless. The reality is, without
:20:08. > :20:13.the UN involvement in that, you are not going to get the consensus. Yes,
:20:14. > :20:18.but you need the UN to do something. Jonathan Bartley? I share your
:20:19. > :20:22.frustration and we are all in agreement that there is no easy
:20:23. > :20:25.magic wand we can wave. What is frustrating is that there is no
:20:26. > :20:29.long-term plan from this Government. We had votes in 2013 and 2015, we
:20:30. > :20:33.have known this has been going on for six yearings, what could we be
:20:34. > :20:36.doing? Freezing the assets of those with blood on their hands, the
:20:37. > :20:42.Russians and the banks, we could be doing that. We could be having an
:20:43. > :20:49.arms embargo on the Middle East. There aren't arms directly going
:20:50. > :20:55.into Syria. If we are bombing Daesh, as we are in that area, we should at
:20:56. > :20:58.least be taking our fair share of refugees.
:20:59. > :21:02.APPLAUSE. The man in the white shirt in the
:21:03. > :21:06.back row on the far side? Are you suggesting that we are going to risk
:21:07. > :21:10.going to war with Russia to intervene over Syria?
:21:11. > :21:16.I think that's what we are actually talking about. You are talking about
:21:17. > :21:24.troops on the ground, or, you know, no-fly zones. If you have a no-fly
:21:25. > :21:27.zone, American planes will be shooting down Russia's forces. I'm
:21:28. > :21:33.not sure that we are going to be willing to go to war with Russia.
:21:34. > :21:38.That is the problem with a no fly zone, people think it's an easy
:21:39. > :21:42.option. There are Russian planes above Syria. We'll be tangling with
:21:43. > :21:47.Russian aircraft. I think we have to realise that there's no simple
:21:48. > :21:53.answer but I think issues like freezing Russian assets, you know,
:21:54. > :21:57.London is a money-laundering centre. We have tried freezing Russia's
:21:58. > :22:04.assets or Ukraine, Crimea. We need to do it properly. You, Sir, in the
:22:05. > :22:07.checked shirt? Clearly Assad's regime has been abusing their
:22:08. > :22:11.citizens, similarly to Saddam Hussein did, but Isis are actually
:22:12. > :22:15.already on the ground there. So if we intervene, as we did in Iraq,
:22:16. > :22:20.everyone knows the mess that's been created. How on earth is it going to
:22:21. > :22:24.be any better than Syria, given that Isis are already there?
:22:25. > :22:28.OK. I would hate for us to do military action in Syria at the
:22:29. > :22:32.moment. I would personally be afraid of the ramifications, that would be
:22:33. > :22:36.my absolute last resort if I was ever to be in charge of those
:22:37. > :22:40.decisions which I hope never to be. There is an issue though, we are all
:22:41. > :22:46.of us, stung and affected by the Iraq war and the sense that there
:22:47. > :22:48.was an illegal and I would say counterproductive British
:22:49. > :22:53.involvement leadership of that war, and that's made us and politicians
:22:54. > :22:56.and maybe society as a whole squeamish about intervening when
:22:57. > :23:00.they jolly well should intervene. The reality is those people will be
:23:01. > :23:04.continued to be killed by Assad unless he thinks something is there
:23:05. > :23:08.to stop it. Your party voted against the war? Because it was illegal and
:23:09. > :23:12.counterproductive. We led the cause for intervention in Kosovo. So what
:23:13. > :23:16.are you saying about this one, let us be clear? We should be using the
:23:17. > :23:23.United nations to take action to make sure we police a no-fly zone.
:23:24. > :23:26.Who will police it? The reality is, on the ground, who knows what is
:23:27. > :23:33.possible but all credible options should be looked at because the
:23:34. > :23:36.message Assad has got so far is that he's got complete immunity. I've met
:23:37. > :23:41.refugees, whether in the Far East of the continent in Greece or indeed
:23:42. > :23:44.here around the corner in Gravesend. I can't look those kids in the eye
:23:45. > :23:48.and not want to do something about the cause of their misery.
:23:49. > :23:54.APPLAUSE. Right, we must go on and leave that
:23:55. > :23:58.extremely distressing question. Just before we go on, I should say about
:23:59. > :24:03.Question Time's plans so that you can make a note if you want to. We
:24:04. > :24:08.are not going to be on the air because of Easter in the next two
:24:09. > :24:11.weeks. We are in oaksed for on the 27th, the week after that we are in
:24:12. > :24:21.Wigan and there is the address on the screen. I'll give it again at
:24:22. > :24:26.the end. Oxford and Wigan thee and four weeks from now. Flick Foreman,
:24:27. > :24:29.please, your question? Why are we paying for brex it? We voted to
:24:30. > :24:35.leave so just leave. APPLAUSE.
:24:36. > :24:54.All right. Why are we paying for Brexit, we voted to leave so just
:24:55. > :25:01.leave? You voted to leave didn't you? I wanted us the take control
:25:02. > :25:06.over our own laws and boreders and to get out of the jurisdiction of
:25:07. > :25:10.the European Court of Justice. I'm really glad that the country also
:25:11. > :25:15.saw that... Yes, but what about the question? So, in terms of paying to
:25:16. > :25:20.leave, I don't think that there is any kind of paying to leave. We are
:25:21. > :25:26.going to be gaining by leaving. We've seen today that there are...
:25:27. > :25:32.You believe the boss? I'm very pleased that the... Hold on, hold
:25:33. > :25:39.on. Make your point? There is talk of boar rogue ?50 billion to leave
:25:40. > :25:43.to EU. The leaving fee? Yes, the leaving fee. There are better ideas
:25:44. > :25:50.to spend that money, the NHS, social care and me, I'm a was pill, I want
:25:51. > :25:53.my pension -- WASPI. The Government keeps saying there is no money for
:25:54. > :25:59.this country. We are desperate. Why should we go without our pensions so
:26:00. > :26:13.that we can give the European Union ?50 billion? Not on my watch.
:26:14. > :26:21.Have another go? It's been manufacturered, this, and it doesn't
:26:22. > :26:27.seem likely that there will be such a Bill for ?50 billion, it's part of
:26:28. > :26:32.project fear, health warning, don't believe it. You know, we pay into
:26:33. > :26:37.the European Investment Bank and so actually we are going to get a wind
:26:38. > :26:40.fall from leaving, so I think that the scaremongering about having to
:26:41. > :26:45.pay to leave is just not true. We have a lot to gain. Our best days
:26:46. > :26:48.lie ahead and we are going to be enjoying the freedoms and enjoying
:26:49. > :26:54.the benefits that we gain from leaving.
:26:55. > :27:01.APPLAUSE. Gerard Coyne, do you think we should
:27:02. > :27:06.pay to leave? The reality is that we are going to hear a lot of this over
:27:07. > :27:12.the next two years where, as a negotiator I recognise where once I
:27:13. > :27:15.one side puts something forward, another side puts something else
:27:16. > :27:18.forward. You are going to see negotiations for some time. My
:27:19. > :27:22.concern is the uncertainty around the Brexit process, which is an
:27:23. > :27:27.issue for my members and for industry in the country in general.
:27:28. > :27:31.Actually, the sooner we put the suggestion around having to pay to
:27:32. > :27:35.leave or indeed whether we have assets in the rest of the EU that we
:27:36. > :27:41.can claim back, as soon as we get that out of the way and get on with
:27:42. > :27:46.the process of actually making sure that industry and the employment and
:27:47. > :27:50.economy of the UK gets on with the job, then that's the most important
:27:51. > :27:53.thing for me. We are going to see a lot more of this.
:27:54. > :28:00.You, Sir, in the second row from the back? The man with spectacles? I
:28:01. > :28:04.read that the European Union believed that they have
:28:05. > :28:09.international courts on their side to be able to force Britain to pay
:28:10. > :28:15.this leaving fee-type thing. Is this correct? Is Do you think we should
:28:16. > :28:18.ignore legal opinion on it? The UK legal courts are saying that we
:28:19. > :28:28.don't have to pay it, but international courts are saying we
:28:29. > :28:33.do have to pay it. Michelle Dewberry trained as a lawyer, who do you
:28:34. > :28:37.think? I didn't train as a lawyer but I did vote. We are far into the
:28:38. > :28:41.Brexit process and I want to almost just calm down a little bit and not
:28:42. > :28:45.get so hysterical about every single thing that'll come from either side
:28:46. > :28:50.of the fence because we are entering into a negotiation. We are about, I
:28:51. > :28:54.don't know, a couple of days into setting out our ideas of what the
:28:55. > :28:57.negotiation could look like. So far we have had stories about
:28:58. > :29:01.potentially going to war, we are talking about divorce bills and it's
:29:02. > :29:05.just like, calm down. So I think what we need to do is just, we are
:29:06. > :29:08.in a negotiation, lots of people are going to be asking for lots of
:29:09. > :29:12.different things, they probably are not going to get them. Terminology
:29:13. > :29:16.is quite important. We are not divorce billing or paying to leave,
:29:17. > :29:20.will we have some contractual commitments that we will have to
:29:21. > :29:24.pay? Possibly. Are they going to be ?50 billion? I don't know. And nor
:29:25. > :29:29.does anybody else. So don't get swept away with the kind of hysteria
:29:30. > :29:30.that's surrounding it. Keep calm and see what happens.
:29:31. > :29:43.APPLAUSE. The man in the grey. I can't help
:29:44. > :29:49.but feel that this topic of conversation only fans the flames in
:29:50. > :29:55.the sense of we have the far right, the National party in France at the
:29:56. > :30:00.moment, we had elections in most parts of Europe within the EU, they
:30:01. > :30:03.seemed to go towards the right-wing populism thing. The world is
:30:04. > :30:08.watching what we are doing at the moment and they will be saying, look
:30:09. > :30:14.what they are making the UK do paving this massive bill. They are
:30:15. > :30:20.trying to treat us like this, we need to get out of the EU, all they
:30:21. > :30:23.want is our money. I think it's important to raise the
:30:24. > :30:28.question why the Remain campaign didn't set up these issues in the
:30:29. > :30:35.referendum campaign. If they were set out more clearly and succinctly,
:30:36. > :30:41.the short-sighted decision that was made in terms of voting to leave
:30:42. > :30:46.would not be made. I would like to see a more positive EU campaign.
:30:47. > :30:49.Sorry, I didn't get your name. I think we have seen a right-wing coup
:30:50. > :31:00.in this country already with the Government pushing a right wing
:31:01. > :31:06.Brexit. The issues we have seen... It is not an extreme Brexit. The
:31:07. > :31:12.issue over Gibraltar I think will be a symbol of the problems with this
:31:13. > :31:17.process. Gibraltar either have to sacrifice their sovereignty, which
:31:18. > :31:21.they don't want, or they have to sacrifice the freedom of movement on
:31:22. > :31:26.which their economy depends. 12,000 people come into Gibraltar everyday
:31:27. > :31:32.to work and their economy depends on it. Think about Ireland and the
:31:33. > :31:37.issues around the border there, we are one week into Brexit and I think
:31:38. > :31:46.the wheels are already coming the Brexit bus. Tim, I'm coming to you,
:31:47. > :31:50.eat you say the wheels are coming off the bus, you know how the
:31:51. > :31:56.country voted, should that be ignored? They didn't vote for a
:31:57. > :32:05.country that was less prosperous. How do you know how prosperous the
:32:06. > :32:08.country will be? How do you know what people voted for? The
:32:09. > :32:14.Government has already said we will have to lose potentially a third of
:32:15. > :32:18.our environmental protections. You are assuming people voted the way
:32:19. > :32:23.they did, you don't like the way they voted so you are assuming the
:32:24. > :32:28.worst motives. Maybe they knew what they were doing. You cannot say they
:32:29. > :32:33.didn't know what they were doing. Both sides voted in good faith, and
:32:34. > :32:36.I think there was a terrible referendum campaign and people were
:32:37. > :32:42.misled, but we did have the option of staying in the single market and
:32:43. > :32:50.leaving. This version of Brexit which the Government are pushing
:32:51. > :32:57.forward... Stop talking down our country, stop patronising voters,
:32:58. > :33:02.let's be more positive. Tim Farron. Am I right in saying if we don't
:33:03. > :33:07.leave the European Union we don't have to pay ?50 billion? If so, I
:33:08. > :33:12.will hire a bus and stick it on the side of it. If you lose, you should
:33:13. > :33:19.accept the result with good grace and you don't give up. If you
:33:20. > :33:26.believe... Not my figures but the Conservative government's figures,
:33:27. > :33:31.of course I would resist a one-off ?50 billion payment, but the
:33:32. > :33:35.Government 's own figures saying 100 billion extra per year in debt
:33:36. > :33:40.because of the choice of a hard Brexit. Theresa May is not enacting
:33:41. > :33:44.the will of the people. If you are being generous she is interpreting
:33:45. > :33:50.the will of the people. The single market was not on the ballot paper,
:33:51. > :33:54.maybe you wanted out of it, maybe not, we don't know because you
:33:55. > :33:59.weren't asked. That is why, if you want a Democrat you do not want to
:34:00. > :34:04.allow the politicians to rubber-stamp this stitch up in two
:34:05. > :34:12.years' time, you want the people to decide. I just wanted to ask, do you
:34:13. > :34:20.think Brexit will have an impact on the NHS workforce at all? Diane
:34:21. > :34:25.Abbot. Responding to that specifically, we have in the NHS and
:34:26. > :34:31.social care workforce I think it is 80,000 social care workers and
:34:32. > :34:35.40,000 doctors from the EU. If we had an end of free movement
:34:36. > :34:40.tomorrow, certainly social care in London and the south-east would
:34:41. > :34:46.collapse so it will have an effect. The problem is even before we have
:34:47. > :34:50.gone into negotiation, EU doctors and EU social care workers are
:34:51. > :34:54.leaving their jobs. Universities are finding people from Europe are not
:34:55. > :34:59.applying for jobs so it is having an effect now. Let me say this in
:35:00. > :35:03.response to the question about will we have to pay. The Labour Party
:35:04. > :35:07.voted to trigger Article 50 because we respect the result of the
:35:08. > :35:11.referendum. I am one of the few members of Parliament who voted
:35:12. > :35:19.against the Maastricht Treaty because there are elements of Europe
:35:20. > :35:24.I have always been sceptical about. Gerard said there is uncertainty,
:35:25. > :35:29.one thing that is certain is we have Treaty obligations to the EU. These
:35:30. > :35:36.are legal obligations, and I don't know how much money we are up for
:35:37. > :35:40.for having signed this treaty, but they are treaty obligations. The
:35:41. > :35:44.other thing that is certain is this, on the question of freedom of
:35:45. > :35:50.movement, and people have different views about freedom of movement
:35:51. > :35:53.because they see it as a euphemism for immigration and such, but on the
:35:54. > :35:57.question of freedom of movement, without it we will not have access
:35:58. > :36:01.to the single market and thousands of Gerard's members will lose their
:36:02. > :36:17.jobs in companies like euro Eurobus. There is a lot of fear and
:36:18. > :36:24.worry about this but some things are facts and the importance of access
:36:25. > :36:28.to the single market is a fact. Just to come back on the issue around
:36:29. > :36:33.freedom of movement, I have said that somebody who voted for Remain I
:36:34. > :36:37.have accepted the result of the referendum and said OK, we face up
:36:38. > :36:43.to the of that. One of the realities around that is you cannot have
:36:44. > :36:46.access to the single market without freedom of movement, and most
:36:47. > :36:51.people, certainly in the context of the discussion after the referendum,
:36:52. > :36:56.felt migration was an issue and that's why they voted. In terms of
:36:57. > :37:00.the specific issue around the NHS, I have argued the case we should
:37:01. > :37:05.ensure those European migrants who are here should stay, just as the
:37:06. > :37:10.same situation for UK nationals living in the EU. We have a golden
:37:11. > :37:26.opportunity in terms of its skills agenda for our nation. For too long,
:37:27. > :37:29.two decades, employers have had the opportunity to recruit outside of
:37:30. > :37:31.the UK, they have taken skills off-the-shelf from Europe instead of
:37:32. > :37:32.investing in the workforce and the long-term unemployed. We now have
:37:33. > :37:35.the chance to do that and we should not waste
:37:36. > :37:39.two years, we should start the process now. I would like to ask
:37:40. > :37:45.Diane Abbott, you say you respect the will of the people, but do you
:37:46. > :37:49.have any remorse or apology to make for the disgusting lie you made
:37:50. > :37:53.against me and millions of innocent people who voted Leave when you said
:37:54. > :37:57.that because they voted Leave they don't like the look of foreign
:37:58. > :38:03.people, they must be racist or xenophobe. I voted to leave not
:38:04. > :38:09.because of the colour of their skin, it was to leave the European Union.
:38:10. > :38:17.You have caused so much distress and hurt to me, it is a disgrace. One of
:38:18. > :38:22.the people I most admired in politics was Tony Benn and if he was
:38:23. > :38:26.alive today he would have voted to come out of the EU, so I would never
:38:27. > :38:31.say people would vote to come out because they were racist... The
:38:32. > :38:38.month after the accident vote we had a 41% rise in race hate, we saw the
:38:39. > :38:44.terrible killing of the Kurdish boy in Croydon. I'm not saying there
:38:45. > :38:53.weren't good reasons to come out, but let's be clear about the rise in
:38:54. > :38:57.hate crimes that we have seen since. It was very irresponsible of you to
:38:58. > :39:01.stir up this unfounded suggestion that people who voted to leave the
:39:02. > :39:06.European Union are somehow racist, and that the awful killing in
:39:07. > :39:10.Croydon was motivated by Brexit, there is no proof of that and it is
:39:11. > :39:18.irresponsible and disrespectful. APPLAUSE.
:39:19. > :39:23.Suella, you are not listening to me. I would never say people like Tony
:39:24. > :39:28.Benn were racist, and it is not me saying there was a 41% rise in hate
:39:29. > :39:34.crime, it was the Metropolitan Police. Do you think they asked
:39:35. > :39:42.erring up hatred? When we say hate crime, you have websites where
:39:43. > :39:50.people can press big red buttons and register a hate crime because people
:39:51. > :39:54.conceive they are getting logged, validated, and I am fed up with
:39:55. > :39:59.Brexit getting the blame for everything. I want to make a point
:40:00. > :40:04.and it is not about hate crime, I'm taking it back to something else. I
:40:05. > :40:09.have heard you talk about extreme Brexit, you talk about hard Brexit,
:40:10. > :40:15.and I am fed up with it. We were asked if we wanted to be in the
:40:16. > :40:20.European Union, yes or no. I voted out, it doesn't make me better or
:40:21. > :40:24.worse, more intelligent or less intelligent than anybody else, it
:40:25. > :40:32.makes me untitled is my opinion. Brexit for me means leaving the
:40:33. > :40:39.European Union, it doesn't mean me moving house, it is not extreme, it
:40:40. > :40:41.is not hard, it is Rex it, we are just leaving the EU and its
:40:42. > :40:49.associated bodies. APPLAUSE.
:40:50. > :40:53.The last week should have proved to you that it is not that
:40:54. > :40:59.straightforward. The bottom line is this, when this point is proved is
:41:00. > :41:05.that Brexit has divided the country in a cultural way, in a nasty way,
:41:06. > :41:11.and it breaks my heart. I want Britain to be united in or out of
:41:12. > :41:16.Europe. Being in the single market is worth ?100 billion a year to the
:41:17. > :41:20.United Kingdom, the Chancellor of the Exchequer says that. If I was
:41:21. > :41:25.the Prime Minister of a country that had a score draw, people have voted
:41:26. > :41:30.Leave but narrowly, what would you do? Go for an extreme Brexit or try
:41:31. > :41:42.to bring the country together and have a modest approach towards
:41:43. > :41:45.having a membership of the single market? That is what you would do if
:41:46. > :41:47.you are trying to bring Britain together and not divided. Tim,
:41:48. > :41:50.regardless of you cannot go through Rex it kicking and screaming or not,
:41:51. > :41:54.we are leaving the EU, so it's a natural time to make us come
:41:55. > :41:58.together, not go against the Government, and we are leaving,
:41:59. > :42:07.regardless of the single market or not. Get over it. We had a
:42:08. > :42:13.discussion. I respect your view is different
:42:14. > :42:17.from mine, but what I would like you to do is, if you believe strongly in
:42:18. > :42:24.your view, put it in the manifesto, and we can decide, have another
:42:25. > :42:30.referendum and people will decide if they want to vote for it.
:42:31. > :42:40.For me, we should ask the European Union to justify their demand. I
:42:41. > :42:44.think there is a whole area of policy areas where we should
:42:45. > :42:49.negotiate, we cannot work on our own, but we should bear in mind that
:42:50. > :42:56.the European Union is only 7% of the world population. Diane Abbott, you
:42:57. > :43:03.deliberately, just like Nick Clegg two weeks ago, you are confusing
:43:04. > :43:06.access to the single market... The statement you made is factually
:43:07. > :43:13.incorrect. We must move on to another question. With benefits cuts
:43:14. > :43:16.on the sick, disabled and vulnerable, are we returning to
:43:17. > :43:23.Dickensian times? APPLAUSE.
:43:24. > :43:29.The benefits cuts that take effect today, affecting Windows and third
:43:30. > :43:38.children, all the rest of it. Gerard Coyne. Yes, we are, I think so. The
:43:39. > :43:45.reality is we are facing a situation where there are 13.5 million people,
:43:46. > :43:50.defined by the Rowntree foundation as being in poverty. 7 million of
:43:51. > :43:57.those in the UK are working at the moment so the reality that the
:43:58. > :44:01.attacks on tax credits that come through this week will have a direct
:44:02. > :44:07.impact on so many families in this country, added to which some of the
:44:08. > :44:11.measures brought in in relation to the two child limit, it has been
:44:12. > :44:18.reported in the news today that there is an eight page document that
:44:19. > :44:25.is required if you are going over the two child limit, if you have
:44:26. > :44:30.been a victim of rape or forced her worst sex. That is unbelievable, it
:44:31. > :44:39.is barbaric to suggest that somebody who has endured that has to justify
:44:40. > :44:40.claiming benefit over that two child limit, so yes we have gone
:44:41. > :44:55.backwards. Sewell? -- Sewell la? We need to
:44:56. > :44:58.make it fairer and distribute it amongst the people who genuinely
:44:59. > :45:04.need it but also help them on to working so that work pays in a
:45:05. > :45:09.fairer way -- Suella Hernandez. The changes we are seeing today do that.
:45:10. > :45:13.They try and resolve historic unfairness whereby those people
:45:14. > :45:17.who're in the middle, so we have got people who can't work, people who
:45:18. > :45:21.can, people who're disabled or ill but can do a bit and are on the
:45:22. > :45:25.route to working. This is about redistributing and making it fairer,
:45:26. > :45:30.a more sustainable way for providing for them so they can get back into
:45:31. > :45:33.work. We need to be reasonable with how we spend benefits and welfare
:45:34. > :45:37.because we need to make work pay. That is what gives people the
:45:38. > :45:42.dignity, making people more able to work even if they've got
:45:43. > :45:45.disabilities, even if they've got illness but also supporting those
:45:46. > :45:49.people who're vulnerable so they don't feel they are being abandoned.
:45:50. > :45:52.One of the changes you are bringing in today is about the employment
:45:53. > :45:57.support allowance, the work related activity group. These are people who
:45:58. > :46:02.this Government accepts are too sick or too ill or too disabled to work
:46:03. > :46:07.at this moment. And you are introducing a 33% cut in their
:46:08. > :46:10.benefit today. That is despicable, outrageous, that you would talk on
:46:11. > :46:14.the one hand about getting people into employment...
:46:15. > :46:20.APPLAUSE. If you told me 20 years ago that we
:46:21. > :46:24.would be living in a country where there are a million emergency food
:46:25. > :46:29.bank parcels given out a year, 100,000 people relying on food banks
:46:30. > :46:34.to get food for their families, I would not have believed you. How've
:46:35. > :46:38.we come to this state? These are people who're in work. I want to
:46:39. > :46:43.finish this, because these are people who're in work trying to work
:46:44. > :46:45.but who aren't being paid enough either through benefits or work,
:46:46. > :46:50.it's despicable. APPLAUSE.
:46:51. > :46:55.Actually, what we are doing is using the money more effectively. Personal
:46:56. > :47:00.support packages, costing ?330 million will be there for people
:47:01. > :47:06.who're disabled who want to work. We have introduced the taper on
:47:07. > :47:10.Universal Credit so people will be able to keep more of what they earn.
:47:11. > :47:14.You have got to look at it in the round. It's got to be reasonable and
:47:15. > :47:18.we have got to make it fair. Diane Abbott, what do you make of the
:47:19. > :47:26.changes, particularly to the third child, widows down from 20 years of
:47:27. > :47:34.support to 18 months. Is he right to point to the employment? The changes
:47:35. > :47:39.are the Tories are making are cruel and unfair. We are living in a
:47:40. > :47:44.society where people on welfare are being demonised and people forget
:47:45. > :47:50.actually that maybe 40% of people on welfare are old age pensioners, not
:47:51. > :47:55.WASPI women as the lady mentioned there, but they are pensioner,
:47:56. > :48:02.another 10-20% are taking in-work benefits but bit by bit with
:48:03. > :48:06.programmes like Benefits Street and the way politicians are talking, we
:48:07. > :48:11.are encouraged to demonise people. As for the idea that we want work to
:48:12. > :48:17.pay, work is not paying. That's why thousands of people, working people,
:48:18. > :48:21.every week have to go to food banks. We have got more people in work, the
:48:22. > :48:24.national living wage has gone up and that's because of the strong economy
:48:25. > :48:32.that the Conservatives have overseen. What sort of work, Suella?
:48:33. > :48:36.Under Labour, unemployment rose. Michelle Dewberry? I support your
:48:37. > :48:40.view in terms of getting people into work and the rest of it and I'm a
:48:41. > :48:43.fan of that, that is brilliant, but you have to also understand there
:48:44. > :48:48.are some people for whatever reason who're not able to work and it makes
:48:49. > :48:52.me feel really uncomfortable actually that we would tackle those
:48:53. > :48:58.people that for whatever reason need that welfare to support themselves,
:48:59. > :49:01.support their family, going after disabled people while simultaneously
:49:02. > :49:05.not investing the same amount of time and energy, the lad corporates
:49:06. > :49:13.who're avoiding tax and evading tax. APPLAUSE.
:49:14. > :49:19.Tim Farron It's really important to remember who it is that gets hit by
:49:20. > :49:22.this, this is people with Alzheimer's, young people,
:49:23. > :49:25.18-21-year-olds who without Housing Benefit all the housing charities
:49:26. > :49:30.say there'll be a rise in street homelessness as a consequence of all
:49:31. > :49:33.of this and people who've lost their husband, wife, father or mother of
:49:34. > :49:40.their child losing vast amounts of support. This says something really
:49:41. > :49:42.horrible about Britain, Cruel Britannia. We should be ashamed of
:49:43. > :49:48.this. APPLAUSE.
:49:49. > :49:52.I am somebody who wants a strong economy and all the evidence around
:49:53. > :49:55.the world is that the countries with strong welfare safety nets allow
:49:56. > :50:01.business people, entrepreneurs, to take bigger risks because they know
:50:02. > :50:03.they won't fall too far. If you have an ever-shrinking state, an
:50:04. > :50:07.undermined welfare state which unpicks all the things that were put
:50:08. > :50:09.together after the war, then you make a harder environment for
:50:10. > :50:13.business people to do well. This is bad for our morality as a country
:50:14. > :50:17.and our success as a country. APPLAUSE.
:50:18. > :50:23.Some points from the audience then we'll move on. You in blue? You will
:50:24. > :50:31.be saving over ?500 million with these tax cuts, where will that
:50:32. > :50:38.money be spent? ?5 billion a year. I think it was directed at Suella.
:50:39. > :50:44.Sorry. If we are talking about cuts in corporation tax, that's been
:50:45. > :50:47.spent over and over by Labour. We have got to reduce public spending
:50:48. > :50:50.and I'm glad that under this Conservative Government we have
:50:51. > :50:53.managed to cut the deficit by two thirds and get our house back in
:50:54. > :51:00.order. A strong economy underlines everything that we do when it comes
:51:01. > :51:01.to Public Services. By tackling the weakest members of society...
:51:02. > :51:06.APPLAUSE. No. We are providing packages for
:51:07. > :51:09.people who're disabled and who want to get back into work, we are
:51:10. > :51:14.investing in our NHS and our schools. That's all because we've
:51:15. > :51:19.got a strong economy. Trust any of these parties and I trust you, I
:51:20. > :51:22.tell you, we'll see the economy tag and it will be job losses that will
:51:23. > :51:29.suffer at the end of the day. The man in the white shirt at the back?
:51:30. > :51:38.The simple solution showerly is to spend our overseas aid money on our
:51:39. > :51:43.own people -- the solution surely. You think that would... It would
:51:44. > :51:49.alleviate a lot. You are meant not to disagree with the public but I
:51:50. > :51:52.disagree. My sense is, who are the people we should at least target to
:51:53. > :51:55.save money, the poorest people in the world, I don't think so. What
:51:56. > :52:00.does that say about Britain, just as much as targeting the bereaved,
:52:01. > :52:04.those with Alzheimer's and those that need Housing Benefit. If we
:52:05. > :52:06.contract our economy, we should tax those who've got the most, not the
:52:07. > :52:11.least. APPLAUSE.
:52:12. > :52:15.We've got four or five minutes left. Jennifer's question, please? Should
:52:16. > :52:19.Ken Livingstone be expelled from the Labour Party? Ah! Should Ken
:52:20. > :52:24.Livingstone be expelled? I wonder who we should go to on this first?
:52:25. > :52:33.Diane Abbott! LAUGHTER.
:52:34. > :52:37.There is an argument... Yes or no! ? There is an argument about talking
:52:38. > :52:46.less about Ken Livingstone because he actually enjoys it. OK. But what
:52:47. > :52:52.I would say is this - Ken's insistence on making totally
:52:53. > :52:55.spurious and hurtful and hate-mongering links between Hitler
:52:56. > :53:00.and Zionism has appalled most of us in the Labour Party. What's worse,
:53:01. > :53:08.he keeps on repeating it. He keeps on repeating it. I do not have a say
:53:09. > :53:15.of whether he gets expelled but he's coming up once again before our NCC
:53:16. > :53:18.who are the Labour Party body which decides on these things... Why
:53:19. > :53:24.weren't they able to decide this time? Why do they have to do it all
:53:25. > :53:29.over again, the third time he's been up? It says a lot about the Labour
:53:30. > :53:35.Party. No, it says a lot about Ken Livingstone. Diane, just explain
:53:36. > :53:40.that the NCC makes the decision. Nay take the decision? Yes. Why did they
:53:41. > :53:43.take the decision they did? I didn't see the evidence in front of them. ?
:53:44. > :53:48.You have just described the evidence. No, no, no, no, no, I
:53:49. > :53:53.didn't see the entire evidence. Ken is prepared to go to court. They
:53:54. > :53:58.clearly didn't feel they had a strong enough case. But it's going
:53:59. > :54:04.to come back in front of the committee. But let's be clear, the
:54:05. > :54:10.Labour Party is appalled by - not just what Ken's said, but he's kept
:54:11. > :54:17.repeating it. Yes or no? If he is expelled from the party, and, you
:54:18. > :54:22.know, let's be clear, the Should he be expelled? If Ken is I don't think
:54:23. > :54:28.you are going to get the answer yes or no. Should I answer the question.
:54:29. > :54:36.What is your view? Yes he should go. OK. Why do you think he should go?
:54:37. > :54:41.It's an affront to the six million Jews that lost their lives and their
:54:42. > :54:47.families in the Holocaust. What is going wrong? There is an issue about
:54:48. > :54:52.anti-Semitism. During my campaign to stand for General Secretary of
:54:53. > :54:56.Unite, I've been subjected to hate crime as a result of speaking to a
:54:57. > :55:01.Jewish newspaper. Now, that is a real issue and if we don't deal with
:55:02. > :55:06.it, and we don't send a clear message as was said by the member of
:55:07. > :55:09.the audience, he has to go and we should show him the door and Diane,
:55:10. > :55:16.we have to kick him out. OK.
:55:17. > :55:21.All right. Tim Farron briefly? Yes, he should go. It's very clear that
:55:22. > :55:25.whether Ken is an anti-Semitic person or not, his rhetoric
:55:26. > :55:29.undoubtedly breeds exactly the kind of thing Gerard is talking about and
:55:30. > :55:34.gives people on the far right too succour to believe it's OK to say
:55:35. > :55:39.this kind of stuff. It's quite sad. Whatever you think of his politics,
:55:40. > :55:41.he was a pretty good Mayor of London, this was a relatively
:55:42. > :55:45.serious man who 'll now be remembered as somebody who's some
:55:46. > :55:50.kind of borderline racist, what a massive tragedy. Has he changed
:55:51. > :55:55.since you worked for him? Or worked with him? No, Ken was a great Mayor
:55:56. > :56:00.of London, he really was. And it's very sad for those that have known
:56:01. > :56:05.him for decades to see what has happened. But when Gerard says that
:56:06. > :56:10.the Labour Party has a problem with institutional racism, I'm sorry that
:56:11. > :56:15.you feel... I said anti-Semitism. One and the same. When you say that,
:56:16. > :56:19.I'm sorry you feel the need to attack your party. I'm proud of the
:56:20. > :56:22.Labour Party's record on fighting racism and anti-Semitism. That's why
:56:23. > :56:29.I feel Ken Livingstone needs to be dealt with hopefully with a little
:56:30. > :56:34.less talking. I would prefer if he dealt with this issue properly.
:56:35. > :56:39.Suella briefly? A Labour Party issue? It's bigger than Ken
:56:40. > :56:44.Livingstone, he should apologise and should be expelled. They have had a
:56:45. > :56:49.problem with it, Shami Chakrabarti wrote a report about anti-Semitism,
:56:50. > :56:53.it's renowned by a whitewash by the Jews and she was awarded with a
:56:54. > :57:00.peerage. That sends a toxic message that it's OK. Have you read it? Have
:57:01. > :57:05.you read it? Jeremy Corbyn says he's friends with Hamas and Hezbollah,
:57:06. > :57:10.he's got a liberal lack of moral leadership, that's the cause of it.
:57:11. > :57:14.He needs to develop a backbone and take action so show that zero
:57:15. > :57:22.tolerance is a reaction, not an illusion. You wanted to speak on
:57:23. > :57:25.this point? Do do think he should be expelled. I won't make political
:57:26. > :57:28.points but there is an issue we have to address as a country around
:57:29. > :57:32.anti-Semitism and the rise in hate and we have to face up to. I don't
:57:33. > :57:37.believe the referendum, going back to that, I don't believe that was
:57:38. > :57:41.the cause of hate crime. It's like the geneny came out of the bottle
:57:42. > :57:45.and it's about decades of this whipping up and not challenging it
:57:46. > :57:48.hard enough and we are reaping what we have sown. There is a broader
:57:49. > :57:51.question we must address as a country. Michelle?
:57:52. > :57:56.APPLAUSE. I think that the Labour Party is
:57:57. > :58:01.letting people down so much now in so many different ways and this is
:58:02. > :58:07.just another example of it. I think that if you think that somebody's
:58:08. > :58:13.done something wrong, and they're deemed to have done something
:58:14. > :58:17.wrong... Are you saying Ken is an anti-Semitism person? It doesn't
:58:18. > :58:21.matter, he's bringing your party into disrepute. Your party is a joke
:58:22. > :58:24.for numerous different reasons. This is just one of them and you have got
:58:25. > :58:28.to get some credibility, some backbone. He shouldn't be there and
:58:29. > :58:32.I'm sure you know that as well as I do. I'm going to have to stop this
:58:33. > :58:42.because our time is up. I'm sorry about that. Apologies to those who
:58:43. > :58:49.have your hands up. Question Time will be back after Easter. We take a
:58:50. > :58:55.two-week break now. We are in Oxford on April 27th and Wigan on 4th May.
:58:56. > :59:00.The website address is on the screen and the telephone number if you want
:59:01. > :59:04.to get in touch to take part. Question Time extra time goes on.
:59:05. > :59:10.Here in Gillingham, the debate ends, so thanks to the panelists, and all
:59:11. > :59:19.of you who came here and, until 27th April, good night.