:00:00. > :00:07.Welcome to Question Time, which tonight comes
:00:08. > :00:20.from the Debating Chamber of the Oxford Union.
:00:21. > :00:24.and Pensions Secretary, Damian Green.
:00:25. > :00:27.Labour's former Shadow Defence Secretary, Clive Lewis.
:00:28. > :00:30.For the Liberal Democrats, Jo Swinson, who was Business
:00:31. > :00:34.and Equalities Minister in the coalition.
:00:35. > :00:38.The SNP's Europe spokesman, Stephen Gethins.
:00:39. > :00:41.And the journ Camilla alist and former policy
:00:42. > :00:45.now in the House of Lords as a non-affiliated peer,
:00:46. > :01:06.As ever, you can join the debate on Facebook,
:01:07. > :01:11.Twitter or text 83981 and press the red button to see
:01:12. > :01:32.Our first question to night from Priscilla Fisher, please. Has the
:01:33. > :01:39.general election been called for the benefit of the Conservative Party
:01:40. > :01:40.and not the country? Clive Lewis. Yes, quite clearly it has.
:01:41. > :01:51.APPLAUSE And I am quite pleased to say I
:01:52. > :01:54.voted against it because I think it's a cynical ploy.
:01:55. > :01:58.The Prime Minister has gone into this election having said 11 times
:01:59. > :02:02.before that she would not call an early general election. She has
:02:03. > :02:08.worked out that her chaotic plan on Brexit and the policies she and her
:02:09. > :02:11.government have embarked upon since 2010 mean that, also with internal
:02:12. > :02:16.dissent in her party, she needs to go to the polls now. I think most
:02:17. > :02:19.people will see it as a cynical, manipulative ploy to maximise on
:02:20. > :02:25.what she is doing, when what she needs to be doing is bringing the
:02:26. > :02:28.country together in one of the most chaotic and undermining situations
:02:29. > :02:32.we have seen in the post-war period. She is not doing that. It is
:02:33. > :02:33.divisive and quite simply she is out of line.
:02:34. > :02:44.APPLAUSE So why didn't you get your whole
:02:45. > :02:49.party to vote against it? I think the decision that my own
:02:50. > :02:54.party made, to go and vote for this, was wrong. I went through a
:02:55. > :02:57.different lobby to them. But I understand why, because when Theresa
:02:58. > :03:02.May and the policies she is putting forward, day in, day out, as many on
:03:03. > :03:05.this table will know, they are having a devastating impact in our
:03:06. > :03:10.communities. In Norwich South I see people every week telling me about
:03:11. > :03:13.the hardship they are in, difficulties in the NHS, the
:03:14. > :03:17.homelessness people face and the hardship. My party, Jeremy Corbyn
:03:18. > :03:22.and the Shadow Cabinet felt we had to take Theresa May on if she
:03:23. > :03:26.offered this opportunity. But it was wrong. I think we should have said,
:03:27. > :03:29.if you want to be so manipulative we will happily vote for you in a vote
:03:30. > :03:35.of no confidence in your own government. If you want the election
:03:36. > :03:39.badly enough, vote against yourself. Jo Swinson. Yes, the election was
:03:40. > :03:44.called for the benefit of the Conservative Party. Theresa May was
:03:45. > :03:47.asked, what part of the 20 point lead in the polls made you think
:03:48. > :03:52.calling an election would be a good thing to do. But this is an election
:03:53. > :03:56.that can benefit the country. There are millions of people across the
:03:57. > :04:00.country who woke up on June 24 last year devastated that Britain had
:04:01. > :04:05.voted to leave the EU, and have looked on in horror as events have
:04:06. > :04:09.unfolded since. There were also millions of people who voted Leave
:04:10. > :04:12.but did not vote for Theresa May's hard Brexit, which includes leaving
:04:13. > :04:18.the single market and wrecking the economy. So there are plenty of
:04:19. > :04:20.people who look at politics, see it is broken, see a Conservative
:04:21. > :04:25.government that has gone for the hardest of all Brexits and has got
:04:26. > :04:30.away with it because frankly the opposition in the Labour Party has
:04:31. > :04:34.been hopeless. So this is the chance to change the country, to get a much
:04:35. > :04:38.better deal for the country, and to have an opposition that can actually
:04:39. > :04:38.hold this hard Brexit government to account.
:04:39. > :04:50.APPLAUSE Damian Green.
:04:51. > :04:52.I find it extraordinary to have opposition politicians saying the
:04:53. > :04:56.Government is terrible but we don't want an election, do not want the
:04:57. > :04:59.people to decide whether the government is any good. That is
:05:00. > :05:03.exactly what you said, Clive, you went into an attack and then said, I
:05:04. > :05:10.did not want an election, which is absurd. Did you not pass a law
:05:11. > :05:14.saying there would be no election until 2020? She said she had changed
:05:15. > :05:18.her mind for two reasons. First, because the Brexit process, as Tim
:05:19. > :05:22.Farron said, he would come up parliament and grind down the
:05:23. > :05:26.government. There are 100 Lib Dem peers in the House of Lords who
:05:27. > :05:34.could do that. They would make the Brexit process chaotic. And
:05:35. > :05:39.secondly,... I love it that nobody can get a word in edge ways when
:05:40. > :05:41.they get together. This is the coalition of chaos made flesh, these
:05:42. > :05:45.three. APPLAUSE
:05:46. > :05:51.The point is that there is a window where you can have that now because
:05:52. > :05:56.the European Union has gone away to think about its negotiating tactics.
:05:57. > :06:00.We can have an election now, and out of this election, if people vote
:06:01. > :06:03.Conservative, if we have a Conservative government returned
:06:04. > :06:07.under Theresa May, we will have a stronger and more stable government
:06:08. > :06:10.that will get the best deal for Britain in these vital Brexit
:06:11. > :06:15.negotiations. I cannot overstress the importance. We need a good deal
:06:16. > :06:20.for Britain, a strong and stable government under Theresa May to get
:06:21. > :06:23.that deal for Britain. Can I pick up on this? I relish the opportunity to
:06:24. > :06:28.do my bit to get rid of a Tory government and the damage they have
:06:29. > :06:32.done, but we had an EU referendum to try and sort out a Tory civil war.
:06:33. > :06:37.We are now having a general election to try and sort out a Tory civil
:06:38. > :06:42.war. And all the time we are having more chaos, more uncertainty for
:06:43. > :06:47.jobs and the economy. What is the Tory civil war at the moment? The
:06:48. > :06:52.only reason you do not see a Tory civil war going on is because the
:06:53. > :06:56.Labour one is worse. There is a hard Tory Brexit being driven by the hard
:06:57. > :07:00.right of the Conservative Party. They have taken us out of the singer
:07:01. > :07:04.market that will cost jobs, leaving us with uncertainty over research
:07:05. > :07:08.funding, which is crucial in areas like Oxford and the area I
:07:09. > :07:12.represent, Saint Andrews, as well. People's jobs rely on this, and you
:07:13. > :07:17.are using it as a political tool to take advantage of the mess we are
:07:18. > :07:21.in. Are you saying that Theresa May wants a soft Brexit and by getting a
:07:22. > :07:26.bigger majority you will get the kind of Brexit that you want?
:07:27. > :07:31.Because of the irresponsibility of Leave campaigning on a bank piece of
:07:32. > :07:34.paper, no one has told us what shape leaving the EU will take. We will
:07:35. > :07:40.debate this in Parliament. Having scrutiny in Parliament is a good
:07:41. > :07:43.thing. It is the point why we are here, standing again, it is a good
:07:44. > :07:45.thing and it makes for better government.
:07:46. > :07:52.APPLAUSE There are a lot of hands up in the
:07:53. > :08:01.audience. I will come to you in a moment,
:08:02. > :08:05.Camilla. At the very back first. One of the benefits of this election is
:08:06. > :08:10.that, as of the 9th of June, we actually stand a fighting chance of
:08:11. > :08:18.a process of getting an opposition leader who is credible and stands a
:08:19. > :08:22.chance of winning in 2025. Five years from now, 2022. Because it
:08:23. > :08:26.certainly will not be happening under Corbyn. So you think the
:08:27. > :08:31.election's achievement will be that Corbyn will resign. It will be a
:08:32. > :08:36.disaster in the polls and we might get an effectively do. What makes
:08:37. > :08:42.you think he will resign? I think it is a foregone conclusion, isn't it?
:08:43. > :08:47.I don't know, I am asking you. The woman in the back row. Why was the
:08:48. > :08:53.general election not called before Article 50 was triggered? Camilla
:08:54. > :08:57.Cavendish. I am going to make myself unpopular and say that I actually
:08:58. > :09:01.think it is both. Clearly, the election is for the benefit of the
:09:02. > :09:03.Conservative Party. The little parties are cynical vote winning
:09:04. > :09:09.machines. She's going to capitalise on the lead. But I have been really
:09:10. > :09:13.worried that we would put ourselves in a position where the government
:09:14. > :09:17.of the day was going to be focusing, from 2019 onwards, on winning the
:09:18. > :09:21.next election, just at the time when they would need to be properly
:09:22. > :09:25.negotiating with the 27 other countries that we need to do a deal
:09:26. > :09:28.with, and that she would be under enormous pressure from her right
:09:29. > :09:32.wing, she has quite a small majority, to do something that I
:09:33. > :09:37.certainly would not agree with. I think she needs more room to
:09:38. > :09:42.manoeuvre. I actually think it is a good thing if we can get a longer
:09:43. > :09:46.period to have this negotiation. That does not mean that I don't
:09:47. > :09:48.agree with Stephen that we absolutely need parliamentary
:09:49. > :09:54.scrutiny of the process at the same time. But this is a very dangerous
:09:55. > :09:57.moment for the country. We have a huge and important negotiation that
:09:58. > :10:02.I think transcends politics to some extent. We need the best deal. It is
:10:03. > :10:05.hard that half of it is going to be done behind closed doors. That is
:10:06. > :10:08.hard to your head round. But I do think a bit more time might give us
:10:09. > :10:14.a better chance. APPLAUSE
:10:15. > :10:19.The man in blue. For months, people have complained
:10:20. > :10:22.about Theresa May not having a mandate for hard Brexit, but now
:10:23. > :10:26.when she has gone to get a mandate, people like Clive Lewis are still
:10:27. > :10:34.complaining. When will Theresa May win? At the front. I think Tim
:10:35. > :10:40.Farron brought up an interesting point at PMQs a couple of days ago,
:10:41. > :10:46.that the legacy of this parliament will be the absence of an effective
:10:47. > :10:50.opposition. And I think maybe the Labour Party needs to thank Theresa
:10:51. > :10:54.May for calling the election. Because if nothing else it will sort
:10:55. > :10:58.out the mess that is in the Labour Party, because we need the Labour
:10:59. > :11:03.Party working and functioning as it should be, an effective opposition,
:11:04. > :11:12.if that is where it is going to be. I do not agree with him, I'm shaking
:11:13. > :11:18.my head. I thought you were nodding. Take up his point. I respectfully
:11:19. > :11:24.disagree. I find it interesting that if Theresa May wanted a mandate, the
:11:25. > :11:27.Conservative Party were busy telling us after the referendum,
:11:28. > :11:31.interpreting what that result meant, that the British people had spoken.
:11:32. > :11:35.She had that mandate. When she became Prime Minister, that is when
:11:36. > :11:39.she should have caught the election. I find it laughable that you would
:11:40. > :11:42.say you have caught the election because nine Liberal Democrat MPs,
:11:43. > :11:49.who voted three different ways on Article 50, are going to stop the
:11:50. > :11:54.Brexit negotiations. It is about the House of Lords, I said that. This is
:11:55. > :11:59.more about having a 1-party state, that is what you want. Being accused
:12:00. > :12:04.of having a 1-party state when you have called an election is absurd.
:12:05. > :12:09.This is a democratic process. Interestingly, I campaigned on the
:12:10. > :12:13.remain side. Nobody fought harder for Remain. But unlike the
:12:14. > :12:16.impression I'm getting here, I am a Democrat and I accept the result of
:12:17. > :12:21.the referendum. What is important is to get on with the best Brexit we
:12:22. > :12:26.can have a have a prosperous Britain. You have already ruled that
:12:27. > :12:30.out. You were on the Remain side, you must be looking at what is
:12:31. > :12:34.happening with dismay. Theresa May is standing there and saying, before
:12:35. > :12:37.we even talked our European counterparts, we will rule out being
:12:38. > :12:42.in the sing the market, not even try to see if that is possible. Surely
:12:43. > :12:45.to have that trade without all of those costs of businesses trying to
:12:46. > :12:50.export, if you are going to say let's make the best possible Brexit,
:12:51. > :12:54.try and bring the country together after... I respect the view. We
:12:55. > :12:59.fought, we lost, we have to respect the view of the people. You are not
:13:00. > :13:05.doing that because you are already rolling out what would be the best
:13:06. > :13:10.version of Brexit. Let's respect our audience and hear from them as well.
:13:11. > :13:14.Briefly, Stephen. The SNP has been described as an effective
:13:15. > :13:18.opposition. Damien talks about fearing the House of Lords. The
:13:19. > :13:22.House of Lords is a democratic abomination and will have absolutely
:13:23. > :13:26.no impact on the House of Lords after this general election. It will
:13:27. > :13:32.still be there, unelected, and will still have an impact on each of us.
:13:33. > :13:35.Why not scrap it? I voted for a fully democratically elected House
:13:36. > :13:39.of Lords when it came up a couple of parliaments ago. It is not for the
:13:40. > :13:43.government to abolish houses of parliament. It is for Parliament to
:13:44. > :13:47.do that. What is important is that we have a strong and stable
:13:48. > :13:51.government to get the deal. We can argue about the type of deal but it
:13:52. > :13:55.seems unarguable that if you have a strong, elected Prime Minister with
:13:56. > :14:02.a new elected mandate, Britain's position will be put better in those
:14:03. > :14:07.vital negotiations. In the middle. If we are going to have an election,
:14:08. > :14:13.can we at least have a grown-up election? I bet my wife ?10 that
:14:14. > :14:16.Damian Green would say coalition of chaos and strong and stable
:14:17. > :14:17.government in his first contribution.
:14:18. > :14:32.APPLAUSE Would that the Damien Lewis or Clive
:14:33. > :14:37.Green you were talking about? Has he caught the cliche virus from
:14:38. > :14:40.his boss? Can we have a more grown-up debate where we use the
:14:41. > :14:45.language of Shakespeare with a bit more flexibility?
:14:46. > :14:50.The general public were upset when Theresa May got into power unelected
:14:51. > :14:52.and now when there is an election, apparently she is being
:14:53. > :14:53.manipulative. How'd she stand a chance please anyone?
:14:54. > :15:04.APPLAUSE You, sir.
:15:05. > :15:08.The chaos we are looking at today, it identifies exactly what we should
:15:09. > :15:13.not be doing in this election. We do need a unified front, and I believe
:15:14. > :15:18.Labour has some very good candidates. Clive is in front of us
:15:19. > :15:23.today and there are others. And it should not be Jeremy Corbyn. I do
:15:24. > :15:26.not get your point. The Labour leader should not necessarily be
:15:27. > :15:30.Jeremy Corbyn going forwards. I think at the end of the day, you
:15:31. > :15:34.are asking people to vote on uncertainties. This whole Brexit
:15:35. > :15:38.thing, we don't know what we are going into, what we are voting on,
:15:39. > :15:44.we don't know what agreement we are going to get. We have two years to
:15:45. > :15:47.negotiate. We do not know if we can negotiate the deal that we want. How
:15:48. > :15:51.can you ask people to vote on something they do not know,
:15:52. > :15:57.essentially? You would rather it had waited for three years? Yes, maybe.
:15:58. > :16:00.I don't know what the alternative is, but I think this is the wrong
:16:01. > :16:04.time to be calling a general election.
:16:05. > :16:14.The woman there. I mean, how will the Government's apparent lack of
:16:15. > :16:20.clarity on the Brexit demands affect how people vote? How do they think
:16:21. > :16:24.it won't affect how people vote? People who had confidence in the
:16:25. > :16:32.Tories in the first place, we've had no clarity. You don't know what
:16:33. > :16:37.you're voting for? Why would a coalition of chaos, so to speak, why
:16:38. > :16:44.would that not be a better alternative? That's a good point. I
:16:45. > :16:47.would like to get Simon Fisher's questions question on that. Is
:16:48. > :16:53.tactical voting undemocratic or the only way to prevent a hard Brexit Is
:16:54. > :16:56.tactical voting, voting for a party other than your natural allegiance.
:16:57. > :17:00.Tony Blair was saying it may mean some Labour people voting Tory this
:17:01. > :17:07.time round. Is that undemocratic or is the way to prevent a hard Brexit.
:17:08. > :17:11.Jo Swinson? We have the fist past the post voting system which some
:17:12. > :17:15.people will say can produce results which don't necessarily look like
:17:16. > :17:20.they are respecting the will of the overall democracy. In the 2015
:17:21. > :17:25.election half of the people in Scotland voted SNP but 56 of the 59
:17:26. > :17:30.seats went SNP. Many people in Scotland felt they were not being
:17:31. > :17:34.properly represented. There will be a lot of tactical voting in Scotland
:17:35. > :17:37.and south of the border. It's up to individuals to decide how to cast
:17:38. > :17:43.their vote. For many people, avoiding a hard Brexit is going to
:17:44. > :17:48.be a top property because they can see the chaos coming down-the-line.
:17:49. > :17:53.Damian Green talks about the coalition of chaos it's the pursuit
:17:54. > :17:56.of this hard Brexit creating chaos. The Liberal Democrats are saying
:17:57. > :17:59.this can be avoided. We have an election. It's an opportunity to
:18:00. > :18:06.vote for something else. This is the chance to send the message to
:18:07. > :18:10.Theresa May. Camilla Cavendish? I think tactical voting is perfectly
:18:11. > :18:15.democratic especially because it's the only way sometimes you can break
:18:16. > :18:19.out of the tyranny of safe seats. A lot of people feel it it is not
:18:20. > :18:23.worth voting at all. Where they live it's always been the same way. There
:18:24. > :18:27.is nothing wrong with tactical voting. I'm sure we have a coalition
:18:28. > :18:33.of chaos. It's not a coalition at all. None of you entirely agree with
:18:34. > :18:38.each other, I don't think. To go back to the lady who made the point
:18:39. > :18:45.about uncertainty. I think what most of us would value as voters is just
:18:46. > :18:49.much more clarity from each party about exactly what the choices are,
:18:50. > :18:54.both going into Brexit and coming out of it? There are some things, we
:18:55. > :18:57.don't know, because it hes a all subject to 27 other countries. I
:18:58. > :19:02.would really like to see a bit more vision beyond Brexit. What are we
:19:03. > :19:06.talking about? What are you offering. What do you want this
:19:07. > :19:12.country to look like? The man up there in the stripped jacket. Yes. I
:19:13. > :19:18.was wondering about the fact that the stated aim of Mrs May was that
:19:19. > :19:21.she wanted Parliament to come together, or Westminster to come
:19:22. > :19:26.together, because the country has come together. The country is
:19:27. > :19:31.currently very, very divided. We've got to sort that question out. Where
:19:32. > :19:34.you are saying we have to widen this beyond Brexit, yes, we do, we have
:19:35. > :19:40.to address all of those issues. We have to start addressing them in the
:19:41. > :19:44.debate rather than just saying - it's this or that along party lines.
:19:45. > :19:48.Get our heads together. It's the biggest issue that we've got. Damian
:19:49. > :19:51.Green it was the Prime Minister who said the country was united and
:19:52. > :19:56.Parliament wasn't. What is the evidence that the country is united?
:19:57. > :20:03.The country went to a vote last year and I think the thing - the most
:20:04. > :20:06.decisive thing we are hearing this evening is the constant repetition
:20:07. > :20:11.of hard Brexit and those who say - what are you about? What clarity do
:20:12. > :20:15.you want? Read the Prime Minister's Lancaster House speech in which she
:20:16. > :20:18.set out, in as much detail as you can before you go into a an
:20:19. > :20:24.negotiation what she wanted to achieve with Brexit. Which included
:20:25. > :20:27.a key phrase where she said she wanted a "close and special
:20:28. > :20:31.partnership with the European Union." The sensible position for
:20:32. > :20:35.Britain to take Camilla's point - where do we want to be at the end of
:20:36. > :20:40.this process. We will be outside the European Union. That is what the
:20:41. > :20:44.British people voted for. We obviously accept that, but obviously
:20:45. > :20:47.it's still one of our largest trading areas. They are
:20:48. > :20:51.neighbouring, friendly democracies. We want to have a close partnership
:20:52. > :20:57.with them from the outside. That doesn't mean being a member of the
:20:58. > :21:00.single market because that would involve accepting the European Court
:21:01. > :21:06.of Justice. One of the lessons we all had to take from the referendum
:21:07. > :21:10.was that that's an unacceptable interference in the democracy of
:21:11. > :21:13.this country. People wanted more control over immigration to this
:21:14. > :21:18.country, and people wanted us to have more control over our own
:21:19. > :21:23.budget. So within those perimeters what we want to do is negotiate a
:21:24. > :21:27.deal that makes trade flow as freely as possible and that it preserves
:21:28. > :21:31.our friendship and co-operation on things like security. That seems to
:21:32. > :21:34.me a very sensible and strong vision of Britain's future. If we can
:21:35. > :21:39.achieve that, we will have achieved a lot.
:21:40. > :21:43.APPLAUSE Do you expect though on the tactical
:21:44. > :21:48.voting that people who voted, who were in the 48% like you, who voted
:21:49. > :21:52.to remain will abandon the Conservative Party and go for other
:21:53. > :21:56.parties, the Liberal Democrats or Labour or in Scotland your party?
:21:57. > :22:01.No. Why the other parties - Why would they vote for you if they are
:22:02. > :22:05.against it? I was against it. As I say, I accept - the Prime Minister
:22:06. > :22:08.was against it. We accept - You have seen the polling shows that people
:22:09. > :22:12.who voted that way don't accept it. They still feel as they did. Most
:22:13. > :22:17.people haven't changed their mind very much over the year. If
:22:18. > :22:25.anything, the latest switch was that people have moved from bricks tires
:22:26. > :22:32.to remainers - 2%. It's a poll Polls are overrated. I'm struck by people
:22:33. > :22:46.assume... We saw the Trump election, we saw the referendum vote itself.
:22:47. > :22:50.We have seen polls get things wrong. (Loss of sound) The tactical voting
:22:51. > :23:00.point is - it's a free country. You can vote tactically. Have in your
:23:01. > :23:01.mind if your' voting tactically what you might wake up is Jeremy Corbyn
:23:02. > :23:11.as Prime Minister. That's not credible. Jo mentioned SNP did well
:23:12. > :23:16.not past elections on the current system. This next Parliament will be
:23:17. > :23:22.very important in terms of our rights, the environment, what kind
:23:23. > :23:30.of UK emerges from leaving the European Union. Now, I'm going to
:23:31. > :23:31.say something. It's that actually it's maybe no bad thing forcing
:23:32. > :23:35.politicians from different parties to work together. What I noticed
:23:36. > :23:38.with the Europe portfolio is I've had to and wanted to work with
:23:39. > :23:44.colleagues in the Liberal Democrats, Labour and the Green Party on areas
:23:45. > :23:47.where we agree. Keeping E. Nationals here and maintain research
:23:48. > :23:52.funding and fight against austerity. When you get one party in control,
:23:53. > :23:58.like the Tories on just 36% of the vote, you end up in a mess. Not all
:23:59. > :24:02.of us have all the answers and that's why it's good that you reach
:24:03. > :24:05.across the political aisle where you possibly can and reach agreement and
:24:06. > :24:09.Westminster needs to get better at that.
:24:10. > :24:15.APPLAUSE It's Clive's turn. Are you in favour
:24:16. > :24:21.of tactical voting? You appear to be voting tactically by not confronting
:24:22. > :24:26.Caroline Lucas The Green in Brighton? People have always voted
:24:27. > :24:30.tactically. I think the electorate understand what they want to achieve
:24:31. > :24:36.under the first-past-the-post system they can vote accordingly. Where the
:24:37. > :24:41.Green Party, they have stood down in Ealing and they may have stood down
:24:42. > :24:45.in Brighton. I applaud that. That is a grownup politics where they
:24:46. > :24:49.understand actually what is at stake here in this general election.
:24:50. > :24:53.Potentially, one of the most important general elections in the
:24:54. > :24:57.post-war period. It transcends party politics. They should be applauded
:24:58. > :25:01.for what they've done personally. As a national party, the Labour Party,
:25:02. > :25:07.understands in this election it is about Brexit and it underlice
:25:08. > :25:12.everything. -- underlies everything. It's about the future of the NHS and
:25:13. > :25:15.education and social care. There are other issues here at stake. I think
:25:16. > :25:19.people have to vote accordingly and think about that very carefully.
:25:20. > :25:22.Obviously, Norwich South people will be voting, I think many people will
:25:23. > :25:26.vote tactically. They understand after me there is a Conservative
:25:27. > :25:30.candidate who will push through Theresa May's hard Brexit. They will
:25:31. > :25:34.vote for a Labour MP and try to stop that. You praised the Liberal
:25:35. > :25:41.Democrats for not standing against the Greens. Would you like to see
:25:42. > :25:44.Labour not stand against the Greens or the Lib Demcrats in certain
:25:45. > :25:48.seats? The problem there is that the Labour Party is a national party and
:25:49. > :25:55.we stand in every seat, we always have. In the future though I think,
:25:56. > :26:00.I personally also believe in p proportional representation. We have
:26:01. > :26:05.an immature political system from the 19th Century we need to change
:26:06. > :26:08.it and give people choice in who their politicians are and it will
:26:09. > :26:11.make for better politics in this country.
:26:12. > :26:21.APPLAUSE I agree that you mentioned it's more
:26:22. > :26:28.than just Brexit. Why is he shying away? If he wanted to have that -
:26:29. > :26:32.implement it within our country why is he not voting for a general
:26:33. > :26:37.election straightaway? No, you can do what you like in a moment. There
:26:38. > :26:44.are a lot of hands up. The woman there in purple. Yes. Thank you. I
:26:45. > :26:48.just, I suppose, going back to what Damian said, I get frustrated when I
:26:49. > :26:51.hear politicians or anybody talking about the people. I think testimony
:26:52. > :26:55.testimonied and the Government are going on this grand quest to give
:26:56. > :27:00.the people what they asked for. I did vote remain, but I accept that
:27:01. > :27:04.not everyone did. But actually, in fact, the people who voted Brexit
:27:05. > :27:10.only make up 30% of the electorate. I think that people forget this and
:27:11. > :27:15.they are on an arrogant quest trying to impress these people that think
:27:16. > :27:19.that they, you know, they are trying to impress. 30% if you don't count,
:27:20. > :27:24.if you include people who didn't vote. If you include people who
:27:25. > :27:28.didn't vote. That doesn't include children. That doesn't include
:27:29. > :27:33.babies who will be affected more than people that will slope off this
:27:34. > :27:40.earth. You know. OK. One more point from you, sir, in front there. I
:27:41. > :27:45.can't understand Theresa May's position here. She's called a
:27:46. > :27:48.general election that she clearly doesn't want to participate in
:27:49. > :27:55.herself. Why do you say that? She is not wanting to do a debate. She's
:27:56. > :28:01.standing back... APPLAUSE
:28:02. > :28:04.She's standing back from doing all but minimal TV interviews. The
:28:05. > :28:07.Tories want to talk about two things, Brexit.
:28:08. > :28:11.We had a referendum on Brexit last year and the other thing they want
:28:12. > :28:17.to do is just throw abuse at Jeremy Corbyn. I haven't heard a single...
:28:18. > :28:25.APPLAUSE I haven't heard a single policy on
:28:26. > :28:29.healthcare, on education, on welfare, on immigration from the
:28:30. > :28:32.Conservatives. It's just that they want to focus on Brexit again and
:28:33. > :28:40.they want to throw mud at Jeremy Corbyn.
:28:41. > :28:46.APPLAUSE No debates. You will see an awful
:28:47. > :28:51.lot of Theresa May. She has been campaigning around the country
:28:52. > :28:58.meeting people in workplaces. (Loss of sound) There will be huge numbers
:28:59. > :29:07.of TV interviews. Here you are debating, right? There are five
:29:08. > :29:12.different opinions. If if you and I were talking to each other that is
:29:13. > :29:16.not a debate. Why won't she do a debate? Can I talk about the
:29:17. > :29:20.manifesto point. This gentleman said there are no policies. Wait for our
:29:21. > :29:24.manifesto it's coming out in 10 days' time that will satisfied your
:29:25. > :29:27.desire for policies for the future. You called the election, sure will
:29:28. > :29:30.you you should be able to get your policies out before Labour did?
:29:31. > :29:39.APPLAUSE OK. I want to make a point on this.
:29:40. > :29:45.I'm really disappointed that she's not agreed to do a TV debate because
:29:46. > :29:49.she... APPLAUSE
:29:50. > :29:53.... She's making this election partly about strong leadership. She
:29:54. > :29:57.should get out there and cut through the media. The great thing about a
:29:58. > :30:01.TV debate you are not being translated all the time by the
:30:02. > :30:07.newspapers. You can talk to the public and say Watt you think. She
:30:08. > :30:11.should take on Jeremy Corbyn and she should do that now. Why do you think
:30:12. > :30:16.she won't? The politicians will know better than me. Politicians are
:30:17. > :30:22.reluctant to put themselves in that position. Sorry. It's not the same.
:30:23. > :30:26.TV debates are not perfect, but we've now got used to them. People
:30:27. > :30:30.expect them. She is putting herself forward as a strong leared. She
:30:31. > :30:35.should have the courage to come and do it.
:30:36. > :30:44.I think there is a lack of clarity from Theresa May and I have lost
:30:45. > :30:49.confidence in the Conservative Party over the last six months. Over the
:30:50. > :30:54.Brexit negotiations. Calling this general election. I have lost all
:30:55. > :31:02.confidence in the Conservatives. Let's take one issue that may come
:31:03. > :31:07.up. Robert Harris, please. Why haven't the main political parties
:31:08. > :31:09.promised to end the rank betrayal of my generation that is the triple
:31:10. > :31:14.lock on pensions? APPLAUSE
:31:15. > :31:23.In other words, you think pensioners are benefiting at your expense?
:31:24. > :31:27.It makes perfect sense to link pensions to average earnings, to
:31:28. > :31:32.inflation. It makes no sense to commit to a minimum annual increase
:31:33. > :31:35.of 2.5% regardless of what is going on in the economy, producing a
:31:36. > :31:40.constant ratcheting up of costs, at a time when the average pensioner
:31:41. > :31:44.household is better off than the average working household. It is my
:31:45. > :31:47.generation that has to foot the bill and has to wait longer and longer to
:31:48. > :31:52.receive our pensions as the Government tries to keep the cost of
:31:53. > :31:56.pensions under control. Do you anticipate it may be dropped in the
:31:57. > :32:03.Tory manifesto? I hope so, we will hear from Damian Green. He is the
:32:04. > :32:07.boss of this bit. It has no logic, no basis in equity and is a cynical
:32:08. > :32:11.attempt to attract a certain demographic and needs to be
:32:12. > :32:17.scrapped. You are just out for the old vote, Damian Green. I think that
:32:18. > :32:23.is not fair and can I break the rules by being nonpartisan for a bit
:32:24. > :32:25.rest room at to put into perspective, first of all, young
:32:26. > :32:29.people will grow old and want a decent pension system one day. This
:32:30. > :32:34.dichotomy of either you care about the old all the young, that is
:32:35. > :32:41.wrong. More importantly, the triple lock and the action on pensions
:32:42. > :32:45.taken over the last 30 years by all parties, not just my party, but when
:32:46. > :32:51.we were in coalition with the Lib Dems, and before that with other
:32:52. > :32:56.parties in government, has meant a tremendous reduction in pensioner
:32:57. > :33:00.poverty in this country. In the 1970s and 1980s, 40% of pensioners
:33:01. > :33:05.in this country lived in poverty. That was disgraceful. We have got
:33:06. > :33:10.that figure right down to 14%. Still too high, there is more to do, but
:33:11. > :33:15.that is a completely unrecorded huge social achievement in this country.
:33:16. > :33:18.We have done an awful lot in a generation to get rid of pensioner
:33:19. > :33:24.poverty and we should be proud of that. Let him just answer you.
:33:25. > :33:29.Robert Harris. That is absolutely true and it is crucially important
:33:30. > :33:32.to reduce pensioner poverty but the average pensioner household now is
:33:33. > :33:38.better off than the average working household, so there is a trade-off
:33:39. > :33:41.between the two. The current system, when you commit, regardless of what
:33:42. > :33:48.is happening in the economy, has to be unfair. With all the spec, I
:33:49. > :33:54.think the Waspy women in this country would disagree on that. I am
:33:55. > :34:00.proud that pensioners are given a decent pension. They have worked
:34:01. > :34:03.their lives and they deserve to be looked after and I think it is right
:34:04. > :34:06.and proper that the triple lock is there and Labour have said we will
:34:07. > :34:11.guarantee that. I think that is the right thing to do. Rather than
:34:12. > :34:14.playing the older generation against the younger generation, politicians
:34:15. > :34:18.should be saying, how do we tackle those with vast amounts of wealth.
:34:19. > :34:22.We are one of the most unequal countries in the Western world. I
:34:23. > :34:25.know where I would be looking to make sure that pensioners have the
:34:26. > :34:29.money they need to live decently and that young people have opportunities
:34:30. > :34:32.and chances in life. That is by tackling those with the most wealth.
:34:33. > :34:36.There are far too many people with far too much wealth in this country
:34:37. > :34:39.and a future Labour government would equal that out and make a fairer
:34:40. > :34:44.society that works for all. APPLAUSE
:34:45. > :34:51.I have a lot of sympathy with the questioner, but I have a piece of
:34:52. > :34:54.advice as well, which is that his generation needs to get out and
:34:55. > :35:00.vote, and they will find that they lot of the benefits.
:35:01. > :35:06.Accruing to them. That's a very cynical view. You mean that if his
:35:07. > :35:10.lot voted, he would change his mind. Many of the benefits that accrue to
:35:11. > :35:13.pensioners are because we almost pensioners get out and vote. Have
:35:14. > :35:20.you decided whether you will keep the triple lock? Wait for our
:35:21. > :35:26.manifesto. I asked if you have decided. Everything is under
:35:27. > :35:30.discussion and I will not discuss the process of the manifesto either.
:35:31. > :35:33.I would love to do this, but I am afraid we will release our manifesto
:35:34. > :35:39.when we release our manifesto and you will see it then. It sounds like
:35:40. > :35:43.Robert will be happy with the Conservative manifesto on this, but
:35:44. > :35:47.probably less happy with my answer. It was the Lib Dems who brought
:35:48. > :35:52.forward the triple lock, our policy made it into the coalition agreement
:35:53. > :35:55.and we delivered, because over a period of many years the state
:35:56. > :35:59.pension had fallen so far behind what average working households were
:36:00. > :36:04.taking home. Pensioners will remember the insult under the Labour
:36:05. > :36:08.government of the 75p per week rise. It was clear that something had to
:36:09. > :36:12.be done about that. I think making sure there is dignity in retirement
:36:13. > :36:17.is important. I think there are arguments about what you can do
:36:18. > :36:22.about very excessive tax relief from high rate tax relief for people
:36:23. > :36:27.putting into pension pots. But the basic state pension is about dignity
:36:28. > :36:32.in retirement. So I don't think the Conservatives dithering on this is
:36:33. > :36:37.actually helpful. But you are right to talk about working age people to,
:36:38. > :36:41.because this is not just about one end of the age spectrum. What we
:36:42. > :36:44.have seen under this Government have been frankly cruel cuts in welfare
:36:45. > :36:49.on people who are struggling to make ends meet, going out and working
:36:50. > :36:53.hard. These are, frankly, the cuts we spent five years in coalition is
:36:54. > :37:00.stopping them making. We vetoed the ?12 billion of cuts, the tax credits
:37:01. > :37:04.and the universal credit. You really should be thinking twice when you
:37:05. > :37:07.are having to get officials to design an eight page form for
:37:08. > :37:12.mothers who have experienced sexual assault and are in distress, to
:37:13. > :37:16.fill-in to affirm that their child is the product of rape, in order to
:37:17. > :37:21.make sure that they can get enough money to feed their children. When
:37:22. > :37:23.you are having to design a form like that, you know your policy is wrong.
:37:24. > :37:34.APPLAUSE The workplace pension scheme was
:37:35. > :37:39.brought in, ably and idea to help young people build up a pension for
:37:40. > :37:46.later in life. 7.5 million people are now using it.
:37:47. > :37:50.It is a great success. On the triple lock pension, this is where I would
:37:51. > :37:53.respectfully disagree. Those who would be impacted when the Tories go
:37:54. > :37:58.ahead with their plans to cut that, like so many things, will not be the
:37:59. > :38:01.richest pensioners, but actually the poorest pensioners, those struggling
:38:02. > :38:07.to make ends meet. This is where we see disgraceful practices. It is
:38:08. > :38:11.like the Waspy women, pension inequality, these are women for whom
:38:12. > :38:15.it makes a big difference. Not being told you're pensioners being cut.
:38:16. > :38:18.People were planning for their pensions for a long time, and the
:38:19. > :38:21.Waspy women have a point and that is the sort of area where we should be
:38:22. > :38:26.pulling together and giving the quality they deserve. You have the
:38:27. > :38:30.power to do that in Scotland, the government can do that. If you
:38:31. > :38:34.really cared and did not just want to whinge, you would do something
:38:35. > :38:39.about it. I keep hearing this from the Tories. It is like the rape
:38:40. > :38:44.clause that Jo Swinson brought up, it is a disgrace. We keep hearing
:38:45. > :38:48.that we can sort it out. That affects everybody. The Scottish
:38:49. > :38:52.Government has put ?300 million into offsetting some of the worst
:38:53. > :39:03.decisions made by a Tory government, by getting rid of the bedroom tax.
:39:04. > :39:07.Do it. What was your point? The Scottish Government, which likes to
:39:08. > :39:10.complain about the fact that the pension age has been equalised,
:39:11. > :39:16.which is sensible and was actually done as far back as 1995, but you
:39:17. > :39:21.make a big issue of this. But you know that you have the power in
:39:22. > :39:24.Scotland, if you say Scottish women of a certain age deserve higher
:39:25. > :39:28.pensions, you could pay those pensions. You would much prefer to
:39:29. > :39:35.whinge about it then do something about it. Women were told they would
:39:36. > :39:39.receive pensions by certain dates, and they did not. It is an absolute
:39:40. > :39:44.disgrace. And the Scottish Government has been going through
:39:45. > :39:51.times on the bedroom tax, cleaning up your mess. Do it. Do it! If I am
:39:52. > :39:56.hearing him right, use -- he says you could do something about
:39:57. > :39:57.pensions but you choose not to. Well...
:39:58. > :40:06.APPLAUSE The Scottish Government has had its
:40:07. > :40:10.budget cut by ?2.9 billion. On the rape clause, do you know what
:40:11. > :40:16.the Tory answer was, it shouldn't matter, you can just offset that.
:40:17. > :40:19.Why don't we just vote against the rate clause and get rid of it at
:40:20. > :40:26.Westminster and it solves the problem for the body in the UK. The
:40:27. > :40:34.young man who asked the question over here, there is a young man
:40:35. > :40:39.there. What is your view? I would like to agree with Clive and also Jo
:40:40. > :40:42.Swinson and Stephen to an extent. Since 2010, the number of people
:40:43. > :40:46.relying on food banks has gone up from tens of thousands of two
:40:47. > :40:50.millions. The number of rough sleepers has doubled. Everyone knows
:40:51. > :40:53.Oxford has a huge homelessness problem, a huge number of people,
:40:54. > :40:57.the most marginalised in society, and if you talk to them, they
:40:58. > :41:02.include pensioners, but also young people. The fact is, making it an
:41:03. > :41:05.intergenerational conflict ignores the point of huge wealth
:41:06. > :41:06.inequalities in our country and the fact that no one is talking about
:41:07. > :41:14.that. APPLAUSE
:41:15. > :41:21.Camilla Cavendish. Robert, how old are you? So you
:41:22. > :41:24.basically have student debt, you are having to pay rent, you will
:41:25. > :41:30.probably have how many more years before you can get on the housing
:41:31. > :41:36.ladder? Too many personal questions. I wasn't sure. I think I agree with
:41:37. > :41:45.you. These are really difficult decisions. The triple lock, at 2.5%,
:41:46. > :41:48.is unsustainable, given all the other demands on public spending.
:41:49. > :41:55.And there is a younger generation that are having to bear enormous
:41:56. > :41:59.burdens of debt and cuts. And I actually think, I know a lot of
:42:00. > :42:02.pensioners have suffered from low interest rates, people who are
:42:03. > :42:05.dependent on savings have suffered since the financial crisis. But if
:42:06. > :42:10.we move to a double lock, which would still index the pension to
:42:11. > :42:14.wages and prices, we would not get rid of that, it would still be
:42:15. > :42:19.indexed, giving some guarantee, that would be fairer. I think we have to
:42:20. > :42:24.move on, because 40 minutes have gone.
:42:25. > :42:26.We're in Wigan next week, and the week after
:42:27. > :42:46.A question from Rosanna Mills, please. With tensions rising, should
:42:47. > :42:56.we be more concerned about Kim Jong Un, or Donald Trump. Who is more
:42:57. > :43:02.concerning? Can't we be concerned about both of them? One thing that
:43:03. > :43:07.strikes me, and I heard Boris Johnson raise a good point today,
:43:08. > :43:16.trying to give the US government carte blanche over how they deal
:43:17. > :43:18.with Syria. Syria and North Korea are extraordinarily complicated
:43:19. > :43:21.international situations and I am not sure Boris Johnson is the best
:43:22. > :43:25.person to be dealing with them as far as I'm concerned, but there you
:43:26. > :43:28.go. These are horribly, catered situations whereby simply advocating
:43:29. > :43:36.military action all the time does not work. -- these are horribly
:43:37. > :43:41.complicated situations. The conflict in Syria has been going on for six
:43:42. > :43:45.years. That should shame all of us. That is not that far-away. That is
:43:46. > :43:49.why we have a refugee crisis at the moment, when we have Tories trying
:43:50. > :43:54.to block people out of the country, because we have a mess in Syria, and
:43:55. > :43:59.a mess we caused in Libya as well, which is costing lives. This should
:44:00. > :44:03.be the concern of each and every one of us, but that requires investment,
:44:04. > :44:07.investment in international development, and I am afraid that is
:44:08. > :44:11.over decades, in terms of investment, and I don't have a huge
:44:12. > :44:15.amount of confidence that, as this government is focused solely on
:44:16. > :44:18.dragging us out of the European Union, it will have the wherewithal
:44:19. > :44:22.to start tackling these problems sensibly. You are answering a
:44:23. > :44:27.serious question but a different one from the one that was asked, which
:44:28. > :44:31.was about North Korea. No reason for you not to talk about Syria. Do you
:44:32. > :44:37.think from your point of view that we should take part if the Americans
:44:38. > :44:41.ask us, in bombing Syria? Just because the Americans ask you to
:44:42. > :44:45.bomb somebody, no, I don't think you should go and bomb them. You have a
:44:46. > :44:50.situation in Syria which is multipolar, with troops from
:44:51. > :44:57.different countries on the ground and a competitive situation. A few
:44:58. > :45:00.years ago we were asked to bomb one side and last year to bomb another
:45:01. > :45:04.side. Maybe the answer is not bombing people, but bringing people
:45:05. > :45:10.round a table to talk about it and investing. We have invested in
:45:11. > :45:14.Bosnia over the past 25 years, and it is only now, after that decades
:45:15. > :45:17.long commitment to that country, that you are seeing some progress
:45:18. > :45:21.towards the European Union. Ironically, we are encouraging them
:45:22. > :45:28.to join the European Union just as we turn our backs on it. Let me drag
:45:29. > :45:31.us back to North Korea, Clive Lewis. The differences between Donald Trump
:45:32. > :45:36.and Kim Jong Un are quite a few but as far as I know it, Kim Jong Un is
:45:37. > :45:41.not waiting with his knife in full to take over the NHS. With his
:45:42. > :45:46.corporate colleagues in the United States, if we get the hard Brexit
:45:47. > :45:50.that Damian Green and Theresa May want to see. To draw it back to
:45:51. > :45:54.foreign policy, on the issue of North Korea, I am unhappy that we
:45:55. > :45:57.have someone like Donald Trump, a thin individual in the White House,
:45:58. > :46:02.on a hair trigger issue with North Korea. I think we need a government,
:46:03. > :46:05.a Foreign Secretary and Prime Minister prepared not just to suck
:46:06. > :46:11.up to the United States but to stand up to them. If you look at Syria, I
:46:12. > :46:15.think many people, when they saw what happened in Syria, understood
:46:16. > :46:18.that something very nasty, very bad happened. I understand people wanted
:46:19. > :46:22.to do something and I get that because that is what the British
:46:23. > :46:27.people are like. They embrace justice. But there are two things.
:46:28. > :46:31.First, there was no evidence. Chilcot taught us important lessons
:46:32. > :46:35.about evidence. I imagine it was him but I have not seen the evidence.
:46:36. > :46:39.Second, there is no strategy. You have religious wars across the
:46:40. > :46:42.Middle East, 15 years of the war on terror that has cost trillions and
:46:43. > :46:46.hundreds of thousands of lives and nothing has happened so far. In
:46:47. > :46:51.terms of international law, if you are going to bomb a country, after
:46:52. > :46:54.the Second World War we said as a nation, we got together and said
:46:55. > :46:59.having big, unilateral decisions made by big players on the world
:47:00. > :47:02.stage does not end well. It ended in the Second World War. We want the
:47:03. > :47:06.rule of law. If you want to look other countries in the eye, you have
:47:07. > :47:09.to operate within the rule of law. That means what Donald Trump did on
:47:10. > :47:15.Syria, although we might like it because we think it feels good, it
:47:16. > :47:17.set a bad precedent. We need to go through international institutions
:47:18. > :47:22.because that is what the rule of law is about and we have always said we
:47:23. > :47:25.believe in. How confident are you about Jeremy Corbyn's leadership on
:47:26. > :47:33.this issue, because you resigned as Shadow Defence Secretary? So now you
:47:34. > :47:37.are supporting him for this on an issue like this, a serious issue,
:47:38. > :47:41.Syria, North Korea and what happens there.
:47:42. > :47:49.Is No I didn't resign. You were kicked out? I was shifted over.
:47:50. > :47:54.Because you took the wrong line. I knew what the policy was on Trident.
:47:55. > :47:57.I read the autocue. I was aware of what the policy was. The world needs
:47:58. > :48:02.more people like Jeremy Corbyn. There is a lot of brinkmanship going
:48:03. > :48:07.on at the moment. And, quite frankly, when I heard the Defence
:48:08. > :48:11.Secretary boasting about how he would launch a first-strike, a first
:48:12. > :48:16.nuclear strike on another country, in a matter of way. What does it
:48:17. > :48:27.come to in politics when a politician gets to boast about the
:48:28. > :48:32.fact he is prepared to launch a first-strike on innocent civilians.
:48:33. > :48:36.One of the most dangerous things about Donald Trump is the fact that
:48:37. > :48:42.his opinions and his morals are reaching people all over the world
:48:43. > :48:45.and they're not particularly respectable morals, especially
:48:46. > :48:51.towards women, for instance. I think it's truly disgusting his comments
:48:52. > :48:54.towards women and about them, and why aren't our politicians doing
:48:55. > :49:00.more to stand up against that and say - no, this is wrong. We are
:49:01. > :49:05.being left to JK Rowling to tweet and call him up on it. Why aren't
:49:06. > :49:10.the people leading our country standing up against him? Damian
:49:11. > :49:14.Green? The last time I was on Question Time was just after he made
:49:15. > :49:19.some of his terrible wrong remarks and I said so at the time. So I'm
:49:20. > :49:22.more than happy to repeat that. Come on, let's get a sense of perspective
:49:23. > :49:26.here. It the sounds like, if you listen to the last ten minutes of
:49:27. > :49:30.discussion, that Donald Trump is worse than Kim Jong-un. He's a
:49:31. > :49:34.democratically-elected leader of a country where, as he is discovering,
:49:35. > :49:38.there is the rule of law. There are independent institutions that mean
:49:39. > :49:43.that any American President has to obey the law. And America is a
:49:44. > :49:48.friendly democracy and the idea that in anyway you can equate that. Let
:49:49. > :49:55.us take the question seriously. Who should we distrust more. Kim Jong-un
:49:56. > :50:00.is a dictator at the head of one of the world's most mad regimes that
:50:01. > :50:06.has starved many of its own people and is trying hard to develop a
:50:07. > :50:10.nuclear capacity with which it wants to threaten its neighbours. There is
:50:11. > :50:15.no equation there. Stephen raises the important point of Syria. Any
:50:16. > :50:18.British Government would look at individual situations as they
:50:19. > :50:24.develop. It is perfectly possible, it seems to me, that Assad is evil
:50:25. > :50:28.enough to use chemical weapons to kill tens of thousands of his own
:50:29. > :50:33.citizens if he thought they would get away with it. Frankly if British
:50:34. > :50:36.or western military power was used to save those tens of thousands of
:50:37. > :50:39.lives I would think that was the morally right thing to do.
:50:40. > :50:47.APPLAUSE Jo Swinson. Clearly, without doubt,
:50:48. > :50:51.the North Korean regime is horrific and a, but I think there is a
:50:52. > :50:55.difference in terms 67 actually how much global power the American
:50:56. > :51:00.President and Kim Jong-un have got in the world. That is what makes me
:51:01. > :51:04.so worried about President Donald Trump. We have been used to a
:51:05. > :51:09.situation where America has helped to keep the world order, has been a
:51:10. > :51:14.very positive role in world affairs. We now have this very unstable
:51:15. > :51:19.situation where people can't predict what the President is likely to do.
:51:20. > :51:23.I think this issue really does boil down to international law because,
:51:24. > :51:28.actually, the chemical weapon attack in Syria was one that I do think
:51:29. > :51:32.required a response. I think we have that line in the sand very clearly
:51:33. > :51:36.drawn since after the First World War that chemical weapon attacks are
:51:37. > :51:40.absolutely unacceptable. What worried me about it was that it
:51:41. > :51:43.unilateral action. It wasn't done through the international community.
:51:44. > :51:49.It wasn't as if the approaches were tried. It was just done unilaterally
:51:50. > :51:53.by President Trump. That is worrying. When I hear our Foreign
:51:54. > :51:56.Secretary saying it would be hard to say no, I get Sinn Feiners because I
:51:57. > :52:00.know what it's been like in the past when we have acted as America's
:52:01. > :52:04.poodle in terms of military affairs in the world. I marched against the
:52:05. > :52:09.Iraq war in 2003. We don't want to go back to that situation. There
:52:10. > :52:12.might be circumstances where such as to prevent chemical weapon attacks
:52:13. > :52:15.you might be able to have that discussion. It needs to be done
:52:16. > :52:19.through those proper international channels and to have the Foreign
:52:20. > :52:26.Secretary, you know, coming out with - looking up his thee saw suss for
:52:27. > :52:28.medieval insults for the Leader of the Labour Party and blindly saying
:52:29. > :52:36.it would be hard to say no to President Trump. I find that
:52:37. > :52:39.absolutely terrifying. Plagues plus One more question in. If you can be
:52:40. > :52:46.brief on this one that would be a help. It's a great question. Kim and
:52:47. > :52:50.Trump are unpredictable. There is a horrifying similarity. We are at
:52:51. > :52:53.this bizarre stage of history, aren't we? Trump is
:52:54. > :52:58.democratically-elected and leads a country which has long been our ally
:52:59. > :53:03.and it is still an ally even if it's led by somebody who many of us feel
:53:04. > :53:10.uncomfortable with. I don't agree that North Korea and Syria is
:53:11. > :53:13.similarly complex. I'm concerned about the statements about investing
:53:14. > :53:18.in international development for Syria. Syria is in total crisis.
:53:19. > :53:22.Tens of thousands 678 people are dying. In 2013 President Obama
:53:23. > :53:27.backed away from his red line when he thought Assad had used chemical
:53:28. > :53:31.weapon because the British didn't support action. Obama used that as
:53:32. > :53:35.an excuse not to confront Assad. I do actually think that the use of
:53:36. > :53:43.chemical weapons is horrendous and it has to be, I'm afraid, a red
:53:44. > :53:48.line. North Korea is an abomination. That is the best way to deal with
:53:49. > :53:54.it. It weighs on the Lib Dem and your watch watch. On Libya we spent
:53:55. > :54:00.as much bombing it on reconstruction afterwards under your watch. It laid
:54:01. > :54:05.to a failed state which leads to the problems in the Mediterranean today
:54:06. > :54:19.exasperating the humanitarian crisis. Simon Warren can we have
:54:20. > :54:23.your question? Is it right for Theresa May to maintain the foreign
:54:24. > :54:28.aid budget? We have three minutes left. Is she right to maintain that
:54:29. > :54:31.when the NHS and other places need additional funding? You go on this.
:54:32. > :54:37.We have to be quite swift on it. Yes, she is. I think ultimately,
:54:38. > :54:43.it's like the pensioners against young people. It's not a choice in
:54:44. > :54:45.playing our party we have a better, fairer world where developing
:54:46. > :54:48.nations. Many of these countries ares countries where many people in
:54:49. > :54:52.this audience and at home have come from. Our country has benefitted
:54:53. > :54:55.very much throughout its history from the developing world and
:54:56. > :54:58.Empire. What we are doing here is part of that long-term strategy. We
:54:59. > :55:05.are making sure these countries can come up and join the developed world
:55:06. > :55:08.and actually stop poverty, top stop those things which can create
:55:09. > :55:13.terrorism. The 0.7% is right and proper. We can afford both that and
:55:14. > :55:18.to have a decently funded public services like the NHS. Do you agree
:55:19. > :55:21.with that, Camilla? APPLAUSE
:55:22. > :55:27.I started my career as an aid worker. I have a lot of friends
:55:28. > :55:32.still in aid. I believe aid can do absolutely marvellous things. I also
:55:33. > :55:35.believe having a fixed budget is a recipe for some misuse of funds
:55:36. > :55:38.because the agencies know they've got the money and they don't always
:55:39. > :55:44.spend it wisely. We need to, I'm afraid, we need to get an awful lot
:55:45. > :55:49.better at spending it. OK. Thank you for being brief. Jo, be brief, too.
:55:50. > :55:55.We can't go for more than two minutes? We should maintain it. For
:55:56. > :55:59.?100 this country has in wealth it's spending 70p. We have that
:56:00. > :56:03.responsibility more broadly as well as within our own country. I'm proud
:56:04. > :56:08.it was my Liberal Democratic colleague who brought in the Bill to
:56:09. > :56:12.to force the Government to stick to the 0.7% every year. What do you
:56:13. > :56:17.think? Charity begins at home. ?12 billion is a lot of money every week
:56:18. > :56:25.you are hearing about crisis after crisis in the NHS. ?12 billion? We
:56:26. > :56:30.need more in the NHS. We don't need to export it to other countries. I'm
:56:31. > :56:34.glad there is so much consensus. The Prime Minister has said we will
:56:35. > :56:37.stick. Not consensus from him. Around here. I think you are quite
:56:38. > :56:41.right, charity begins at home. Charity doesn't need to end at home
:56:42. > :56:45.Wen can afford. We can continue to afford to put the extra money, we
:56:46. > :56:47.are putting it into the NHS and other public services, only because
:56:48. > :56:53.we have a strong enough economy to do that. That's one of the key
:56:54. > :56:57.questions facing this country over the next few weeks is - do we want
:56:58. > :57:00.to preserve the strong economy that allows us to do these good and
:57:01. > :57:09.generous things or do you want to put it at risk? This is about the
:57:10. > :57:12.kind of country we want to be. We have international obligations we
:57:13. > :57:16.should have. It's a good use of money and a fraction of the amount
:57:17. > :57:19.of money we are about to spend on weapons of mass destruction. There
:57:20. > :57:20.is a clear choice there. APPLAUSE
:57:21. > :57:27.OK. You have ten seconds the man at the
:57:28. > :57:30.back. You have been trying to get in. Thank you very much. My arm has
:57:31. > :57:32.been dying all evening. It's well and good to have a foreign aid
:57:33. > :57:36.budget. You mentioned that we might be a
:57:37. > :57:42.poodle in the face of America. One way we maintain our stayed status as
:57:43. > :57:45.a world power is by having an effective nuclear deterrent. I can't
:57:46. > :57:48.see us remaining a serious world power as long as Jeremy Corbyn is
:57:49. > :57:52.potentially going to be Prime Minister and get rid of the whole
:57:53. > :57:56.lot. All right. APPLAUSE
:57:57. > :58:06.You raised something we didn't get to. We do have to to stop. Our hour
:58:07. > :58:08.is up. We're in Wigan next week
:58:09. > :58:12.with, among others, the Shadow Chief Secretary
:58:13. > :58:15.to the Treasury, Rebecca Long Bailey and the Leader of Plaid Cymru,
:58:16. > :58:17.Leanne Wood, on our panel. The week after we'll
:58:18. > :58:19.be in Edinburgh. To come and take part
:58:20. > :58:21.in our audience in Wigan or Edinburgh go to our website
:58:22. > :58:24.or call 0330 123 99 88. If you are listening tonight
:58:25. > :58:36.on Radio 5 Live, the debate goes My thankses to that panel and all of
:58:37. > :58:40.you who came here to the Union Building in Oxford. Until next
:58:41. > :58:48.Thursday, from Question Time, good night.
:58:49. > :59:12.This is all Roz, she's trying to frame me!
:59:13. > :59:17.This is the final push, we cannot fail.
:59:18. > :59:20.He sent you, didn't he? Are you expecting someone else?