:00:08. > :00:18.Welcome to Question Time and tonight, we are in Wigan.
:00:19. > :00:25.On our panel here, the man in charge of Brexit, the Secretary of State
:00:26. > :00:29.for Exiting the EU, the Conservative David Davis. Labour's Shadow
:00:30. > :00:35.Business Secretary, Rebecca Long-Bailey. The leader of Ukip,
:00:36. > :00:39.Paul Nuttall. The leader of Plaid Cymru, Leanne Wood. And the boss of
:00:40. > :00:56.Siemens UK, Juergen Maier. Thank you very much. Just before we
:00:57. > :01:06.start, remember you can join in these debates. Twitter, our hashtag
:01:07. > :01:11.is bbcqt. On Facebook search for BBC Question Time. Press the red button
:01:12. > :01:14.and see what others are saying. Mark Buckley please, our first question
:01:15. > :01:18.comes from you. Considering the recent rhetoric coming from Europe,
:01:19. > :01:19.do we need a bloody difficult woman to negotiate Brexit?
:01:20. > :01:31.APPLAUSE. Well, before we come to the
:01:32. > :01:36.politicians, Juergen Maier, do we need a bloody difficult woman to
:01:37. > :01:43.negotiate Brexit? Well what I think we need above all is, we need a
:01:44. > :01:46.little bit more calm and we need a little bit more rational debate.
:01:47. > :01:51.Now, that doesn't mean that it can't get difficult and, you know, clearly
:01:52. > :01:55.there are going to be difficult players on both sides. But in the
:01:56. > :02:00.end, what is going to get us through these very important and very
:02:01. > :02:05.difficult negotiations is if both sides just spend more time
:02:06. > :02:11.understanding each other's position and that also means that we in the
:02:12. > :02:16.UK have to spend much, much more time understanding where is the EU
:02:17. > :02:19.coming from on this, we have to understand that on our side and when
:02:20. > :02:23.we do that, we've got a chance of getting a good deal and we damn well
:02:24. > :02:30.need to get a good deal. APPLAUSE.
:02:31. > :02:34.So, as an outsider to this, was the Prime Minister right to say on the
:02:35. > :02:38.steps to the BBC, that the next person to find out she's a bloody
:02:39. > :02:42.difficult woman would be Jean-Claude Juncker? Was that a sensible thing
:02:43. > :02:47.to say, or was that provocative in the way you don't want to see the
:02:48. > :02:53.negotiations conducted? Well, the way that I see it is, we are in an
:02:54. > :02:58.election, you know, and we've had a week where emotions just ran a
:02:59. > :03:02.little bit high. I guess it is to be expected at this point that you get
:03:03. > :03:06.a bit of positioning. That's what you get in tough negotiations. But
:03:07. > :03:10.I'm pretty confident that when we, after the elections, when we get
:03:11. > :03:15.into the real debate, I think it will be what's right for the
:03:16. > :03:22.country, not what's right for your own political party and we'll get
:03:23. > :03:29.some calm and proper debate, I hope. Rebecca Long-Bailey? Well, look, I
:03:30. > :03:32.think the displays that we've seen over the last 48-hours have been
:03:33. > :03:35.very worrying, suggesting quite an unstable approach taken by the Prime
:03:36. > :03:41.Minister. What's even more worrying is that she was using the EU as an
:03:42. > :03:46.electioneering tool, one of the biggest decisions this country's had
:03:47. > :03:49.to make. And even more worrying than that, were the comments we'd heard
:03:50. > :03:53.had been made by Juncker. He said that at the recent meeting she
:03:54. > :03:57.wasn't fully briefed. Apparently Angela Merkel said she lived in
:03:58. > :04:01.another galaxy in terms of the things she was putting forward. But
:04:02. > :04:05.ultimately, what we need to see now is a Government that puts
:04:06. > :04:10.collaboration and patriotism at the part of our Brexit negotiations so
:04:11. > :04:15.that they get a deal for the many, not the few, and turn us into a tax
:04:16. > :04:18.haven which is the threats we have had from Philip Hammond. We need
:04:19. > :04:21.patriotism in terms of British industry. We want the see the
:04:22. > :04:27.Government giving industry the tools it needs to succeed. For example, we
:04:28. > :04:31.asked the Government to provide support for reshoring UK supply
:04:32. > :04:35.chains to make sure manufacturer was brought back to this country and
:04:36. > :04:39.brought down costs for this country. The Government seems intent on
:04:40. > :04:41.offering bespoke deals to one or two businesses and leaving the rest to
:04:42. > :04:45.rot. That's not an industrial strategy. We asked them to plug the
:04:46. > :04:49.skills gap to make sure businesses had the skills and we had a high
:04:50. > :04:55.skilled workforce ready to go. They cut the adult skills budget by ?1.
:04:56. > :04:59.36 billion. Before we get into too much detail, let us deal with the we
:05:00. > :05:03.of attitude and the Prime Minister said she's a bloody difficult woman,
:05:04. > :05:09.quoting what Ken Clarke said about her. Would Jeremy Corbyn be a bloody
:05:10. > :05:15.difficult man negotiating Brexit? I think you need to have a mixture of
:05:16. > :05:20.being very robust and pursuing the needs your country has, alongside an
:05:21. > :05:23.air of winning friends and influencing people, shall I say and
:05:24. > :05:27.Theresa May certainly hasn't displayed the charisma we need to
:05:28. > :05:31.negotiate our way through these talks. OK.
:05:32. > :05:38.APPLAUSE. David Davis? Well, let's go back to
:05:39. > :05:43.the start of this. There was the dinner. I was at the dinner. I won't
:05:44. > :05:48.tell you much about it because it was supposedly private. What came
:05:49. > :05:51.out afterwards was a leak. It was a misleading briefing to position the
:05:52. > :05:56.commission in one position and trying to undermine the position of
:05:57. > :06:00.the British Government. And the response to that by the Government,
:06:01. > :06:06.by the Prime Minister was, we simply said we don't recognise this. That
:06:07. > :06:13.was all. It was very polite. And for 48-hours we stuck to that. Why? We
:06:14. > :06:17.want to keep this stable, calm and sensible, like Rebecca said, so we
:06:18. > :06:21.get the outcome for both sides. That's been our stance all the way
:06:22. > :06:24.through. Then we had further briefings, we are going to have to
:06:25. > :06:28.pay ?100 billion, the Prime Minister won't be able to negotiate. The line
:06:29. > :06:31.was then crossed. What was happening was that the Commission was trying
:06:32. > :06:34.to bully the British people and the British people will not be bullied
:06:35. > :06:38.and the Government will not allow them to be so she made the point she
:06:39. > :06:44.made and she was right to do so. Now, at the end of this, what we are
:06:45. > :06:50.aiming for is a very good deal. A very good deal for the British
:06:51. > :06:56.people. Based on what they voted on in the referendum, taking back
:06:57. > :07:00.control of our laws, borders and money, and deliver ago comprehensive
:07:01. > :07:05.Free Trade Agreement protecting all business and to give us the security
:07:06. > :07:09.we need that we have currently. So for all those reasons we are very
:07:10. > :07:11.lucky we have got a bloody difficult woman and I think we are very
:07:12. > :07:20.good... APPLAUSE.
:07:21. > :07:28.A lot of hands up. Let me hear from one or two members of the audience?
:07:29. > :07:31.You, there? I think it's a bit rush Rebecca, you are sat there saying
:07:32. > :07:34.Theresa May wasn't fully briefed after Labour's performance on
:07:35. > :07:40.reeling out some of her policies this week.
:07:41. > :07:47.OK. And you on the right? It just seems to me she said that phrase as
:07:48. > :07:51.a device in the general election to make sure all the people that want
:07:52. > :07:56.Brexit and want a hard Brexit vote for her. She's not said that device
:07:57. > :08:00.to actually help us negotiate with the EU. That's right...
:08:01. > :08:07.APPLAUSE. You, Sir, at the back? To me, the
:08:08. > :08:11.statement she came out with shows a lack of negotiating skills. I
:08:12. > :08:15.thought negotiation was people sitting around a table trying to
:08:16. > :08:20.achieve the best outcome for all parties. She's adopting Donald
:08:21. > :08:23.Trump's tactics and we know what he does to negotiators, he drops a big
:08:24. > :08:28.bomb on somebody. We don't want that. It won't work, that.
:08:29. > :08:32.What about the EU Commission President saying Brexit can't be a
:08:33. > :08:38.success and she's living in another galaxy, that's aggressive too? Well,
:08:39. > :08:42.she is. Oh, she is? For many other reasons. But she doesn't actually
:08:43. > :08:58.say anything of substance, she comes out with sound bites all of the
:08:59. > :09:03.time. It's globals. It was said... You, Sir? Can Theresa May deliver on
:09:04. > :09:06.Brexit because she's never delivered on a promise in her life, as far as
:09:07. > :09:11.I can see. APPLAUSE.
:09:12. > :09:15.David Davis, a brief answer from you then the other members of the panel
:09:16. > :09:20.I haven't spoken to. Never deliver on a promise. She was Home Secretary
:09:21. > :09:31.in over six years in which crime came down by 30%. That's pretty good
:09:32. > :09:35.delivering. Did it go down throughout Europe... Hang on. The
:09:36. > :09:39.point about negotiating. The man was saying up there, you have to accept
:09:40. > :09:41.in this process that there'll be difficult times. I've said a dozen
:09:42. > :09:46.times in the House of Commons, there'll be times in this when it
:09:47. > :09:49.will get tough and they'll try to test out our patience and
:09:50. > :09:54.willingness to play the game. The real skill in the negotiations is
:09:55. > :09:57.finding the area where both sides benefit. What Juergen does every day
:09:58. > :10:01.in his business, where both sides benefit. That's what we've done.
:10:02. > :10:05.We've said we want the European Union to succeed. We've said we'll
:10:06. > :10:09.be a good European citizen even though we are not in the European
:10:10. > :10:14.Union. We have said we want a free trade deal to help everybody, not
:10:15. > :10:17.just the one. That's what a good negotiator does and that's what we
:10:18. > :10:25.are going to deliver on. Leanne Wood?
:10:26. > :10:30.I think this was more to do with the election than to do with the EU
:10:31. > :10:36.negotiations and I think it's irresponsible to use something like
:10:37. > :10:40.this as big as this and important as this as an election issue.
:10:41. > :10:42.APPLAUSE. Of course she said they were trying
:10:43. > :10:50.to interfere in the British election. Do you think that? I don't
:10:51. > :10:54.accept that if I'm honest. I think that she's trying to approach this
:10:55. > :10:57.with quite an aggressive attitude, it's the wrong attitude, it's not
:10:58. > :11:02.the attitude that's going to get the best deal. She needs to be much more
:11:03. > :11:07.open-minded and I think this is quite an English nationalist
:11:08. > :11:11.approach and Rebecca talked earlier about the need for patriotism. It's
:11:12. > :11:17.quite clear that Theresa May is speaking on behalf of England.
:11:18. > :11:20.That's clear to me. That's why she's 10% ahead in Wales then, the leading
:11:21. > :11:24.party in Wales is now the Conservative Party? If you are
:11:25. > :11:27.referring to a poll that Kim out recently, let's wait and see the
:11:28. > :11:32.next poll because there are big questions as to the voracity of
:11:33. > :11:36.that. Let's wait to see the result - even better. Yes, the local
:11:37. > :11:40.elections. If we are talking about patriotism, we have Theresa May
:11:41. > :11:43.speaking on behalf of nationalism, the SNPs speak on behalf of
:11:44. > :11:49.Scotland. What Wales needs now is someone to speak on behalf of Wales.
:11:50. > :11:53.We've been ignored and neglected as a country through all of this
:11:54. > :11:57.process and it's vital now that in this election Wales sends a large
:11:58. > :11:59.team of Plaid Cymru MPs to Westminster to defend the Welsh
:12:00. > :12:03.national interest because at the moment our needs are getting
:12:04. > :12:13.completely ignored in all of this. The woman in blue? People say she's
:12:14. > :12:17.a difficult woman and it's a smoke screen her bringing in more
:12:18. > :12:23.austerity. If she wins the general election there'll be more cuts and
:12:24. > :12:28.austerity. I agree... And privatisation as well. Paul Nuttall?
:12:29. > :12:34.Remember the question Mark asked - do we need a bloody difficult woman
:12:35. > :12:37.to negotiate Brexit? Well, on Theresa May's record, I would say
:12:38. > :12:41.that she's a failure actually. You look at her record as Home
:12:42. > :12:44.Secretary. This was the Home Secretary who said that she would
:12:45. > :12:48.get the numbers of people coming to this country down to the tens of
:12:49. > :12:54.thousands. Last year it was a city the size of Newcastle upon Tyne. So
:12:55. > :13:00.her record isn't that great. What we do need is someone who will go into
:13:01. > :13:04.these negotiations and actually be prepared to walk away, walk away if
:13:05. > :13:13.we don't get the deal we want. APPLAUSE.
:13:14. > :13:17.Because frankly, no deal is better than a bad deal. You are quoting her
:13:18. > :13:21.aren't you? That's what she said? No. The difference is, I mean it. I
:13:22. > :13:25.don't think she does. The EU is showing its true colours here.
:13:26. > :13:30.Within the space of 48-hours, our divorce bill went from ?50 billion
:13:31. > :13:34.to ?100 billion. OK. Now, they're on dodgy legal ground with this anyway
:13:35. > :13:38.but we shouldn't be paying the divorce bill into an organisation
:13:39. > :13:44.whereby we have given it in membership fees alone ?183 billion
:13:45. > :13:48.since 1973. We've got ?9 billion tied up in the European Investment
:13:49. > :13:52.Bank, we I don't know some of the EU's real estate. They have ?156
:13:53. > :13:56.billion worth of real estate in Europe. We shouldn't be paying a
:13:57. > :14:00.divorce bill to this organisation. Real who we are, Great Britain, the
:14:01. > :14:03.seventh largest economy in the world and the Prime Minister should go
:14:04. > :14:07.into these negotiations confident that she can get the best deal
:14:08. > :14:13.possible. APPLAUSE.
:14:14. > :14:18.Let's stick with this but maybe we'll come back to what went on at
:14:19. > :14:27.Number Ten as David Davis described it. Robert Langley, your question,
:14:28. > :14:29.please? How much is too much, ?50 billion, ?60 billion or ?100
:14:30. > :14:34.billion? David, I'm not going to do
:14:35. > :14:39.the negotiation here. The aim of this exercise, remember,
:14:40. > :14:42.is to get a successful outcome, not just to talk
:14:43. > :14:44.about the successful outcome. And we are determined
:14:45. > :14:47.to get the successful But the point he raised
:14:48. > :14:52.is actually a very good one, that in the course of this exercise,
:14:53. > :14:54.which Leanne thought was perfectly reasonable behaviour
:14:55. > :14:58.by the European Union, they upped the ante from 50 to 100
:14:59. > :15:02.with no reason whatsoever, except as an intimidation play
:15:03. > :15:04.in a negotiation. So we're not going to get
:15:05. > :15:08.into debating that. We're going to say we want
:15:09. > :15:12.talk about free trade, because that's beneficial
:15:13. > :15:14.to both sides. The history of the European Union
:15:15. > :15:17.is trying to make other countries pay for the privilege of trading
:15:18. > :15:21.with them, when free trade Remember, they sell 290 billion
:15:22. > :15:28.to us, we sell 230 billion to them. So Paul's right, we have a strong
:15:29. > :15:32.hand, that's where we stand. I find it laughable
:15:33. > :15:41.that the Conservatives are commenting on the Brexit
:15:42. > :15:45.campaign and commenting on how much we have to pay
:15:46. > :15:47.to exit the European Union, when they were the ones who actually
:15:48. > :15:51.said, "This is how much money we're going to give back to the NHS
:15:52. > :15:54.as a result of that". Or is it just this that
:15:55. > :15:58.you are complaining about? We may come to the NHS later
:15:59. > :16:02.on in the programme. Well, look, I think we're living
:16:03. > :16:12.in cloud cuckoo land if we think we're going to get away
:16:13. > :16:15.without paying anything at all. I don't know what the exact figure's
:16:16. > :16:18.going to be but this highlights the importance of having a skilful
:16:19. > :16:21.negotiator on our side in the form of a Prime Minister, somebody that
:16:22. > :16:25.can negotiate obligations down. I'd highlight the importance
:16:26. > :16:28.of making sure that we adhere to our obligations, because let's
:16:29. > :16:31.remember, we're going to be making trade deals
:16:32. > :16:34.across the world and we have to look like a partner that keeps
:16:35. > :16:37.up our side of the bargain, otherwise nobody will want to sign
:16:38. > :16:40.any free trade agreements with us. But I also want to go back
:16:41. > :16:43.to a point David made And he talked about policing
:16:44. > :16:47.and how crime has fallen. In the last year, violence against
:16:48. > :16:52.the person has increased by 19%. Let's look at some of
:16:53. > :16:57.the other obligations... Hang on, that's not
:16:58. > :17:00.the question I asked you, which is what is Labour's position
:17:01. > :17:03.on the 50, 60 or 100 billion? Because you can talk
:17:04. > :17:06.about Theresa May until the cows come home, but people want to know
:17:07. > :17:08.what Labour thinks, too. We need to make sure
:17:09. > :17:11.we are in a strong position to negotiate, and we need to make
:17:12. > :17:14.sure we win friends and influence Of course, but do you have any idea
:17:15. > :17:19.of the kind of figure that Well, as I say, it's all part
:17:20. > :17:25.of the negotiations. Well, David, is 100
:17:26. > :17:27.billion acceptable? What figure have you said that
:17:28. > :17:30.you're going to set as a benchmark? You want me to give
:17:31. > :17:34.a minimum amount here. That's a very good
:17:35. > :17:35.tactic in negotiations, Which, I'm afraid,
:17:36. > :17:39.is a demonstration. Labour have had six different
:17:40. > :17:41.positions on this in the course It's a decision not just
:17:42. > :17:47.on what is said publicly, it's Do you trust Theresa May to do
:17:48. > :17:51.this, or do you trust And that's a decision
:17:52. > :17:56.the British people will make. You poured scorn on the upping
:17:57. > :17:59.from 50 to 100 billion. You would treat 100 billion
:18:00. > :18:02.as beyond the pale? That's all I want to know,
:18:03. > :18:08.so you are putting down a benchmark. I think we're in danger of having
:18:09. > :18:15.the wrong conversation here. At the end of the day,
:18:16. > :18:18.I think there is going We don't know what
:18:19. > :18:24.that is going to be. David Davis, you've said yourself
:18:25. > :18:26.there are some liabilities There are some support programmes
:18:27. > :18:31.that the EU has made So, therefore, we have to pay
:18:32. > :18:36.for that for a period of time. But what I would like to hear much
:18:37. > :18:42.more about is what is the vision Because once we have
:18:43. > :18:55.decided what that vision is, it might just make the fact
:18:56. > :18:58.that we have to make some contribution a little
:18:59. > :19:01.bit more palatable. For example, we definitely do want
:19:02. > :19:04.to continue to have a relationship We probably want to have
:19:05. > :19:10.a relationship about climate change. We probably want to continue
:19:11. > :19:13.to participate in some I am not here arguing in any way
:19:14. > :19:18.that we want to stay part of the single market,
:19:19. > :19:20.but there are certain areas. So let's have a vision for those,
:19:21. > :19:24.describe them, and then we can get on to a conversation
:19:25. > :19:27.of how much we really owe. Juergen is exactly right
:19:28. > :19:38.and that is something that The vision here is a global Britain
:19:39. > :19:43.that trades with the whole world. Remember, nearly 60% of our trade
:19:44. > :19:46.now is with other parts of the world, most of which we don't
:19:47. > :19:49.have a free-trade agreement with. So in the next few years we will be
:19:50. > :19:52.developing the basis of free trade agreements with the fastest-growing
:19:53. > :19:55.parts of the world, the Indian The areas where actually Wales
:19:56. > :20:04.is selling most at the moment. But don't forget, 44% of our trade
:20:05. > :20:07.is still with the European Union, vitally important for British
:20:08. > :20:09.businesses, and we need to find And that's the point
:20:10. > :20:14.about the comprehensive free trade agreement,
:20:15. > :20:16.it's designed to protect what we have whilst freeing us up
:20:17. > :20:18.to actually develop markets We have the English language,
:20:19. > :20:25.the culture, the Commonwealth, So it's a real vision for a great
:20:26. > :20:30.future for this country The danger is that it will be
:20:31. > :20:45.like TTIP, the trade deal with America that was rejected,
:20:46. > :20:48.which risked opening up And the Tories have failed
:20:49. > :20:51.to guarantee not opening up I want to go to the audience,
:20:52. > :21:03.but David Davis, you began talking a bit about the dinner party
:21:04. > :21:05.at Number Ten. It was reported that the President
:21:06. > :21:08.of the EU Commission said, "Brexit cannot be a success",
:21:09. > :21:10.and that Theresa May It doesn't sound very promising
:21:11. > :21:19.at the start of negotiations. I'm not going to talk about
:21:20. > :21:22.the dinner party, as you call it. It was very convivial,
:21:23. > :21:29.as you could watch when they came out, everyone was joking
:21:30. > :21:31.and laughing together. So a lot of this briefing
:21:32. > :21:33.has been nonsense. But the point you made
:21:34. > :21:36.about his comment about it cannot be a success, early on in this process,
:21:37. > :21:39.immediately after the referendum, there was talk about
:21:40. > :21:42.punishing Britain. Then they realised that was perhaps
:21:43. > :21:48.not particularly acceptable to British people and they talked
:21:49. > :21:51.instead about Britain cannot be allowed to do better
:21:52. > :21:53.outside than inside. Frankly, that's not
:21:54. > :21:55.for them to decide. How we do outside is down to us,
:21:56. > :21:58.as an independent nation standing Don't you want to try and have
:21:59. > :22:02.a good relationship with the EU? With all these billions
:22:03. > :22:13.being mentioned, with the French election and the possible
:22:14. > :22:18.Marine Le Pen getting in, if there's a referendum
:22:19. > :22:24.and they come out and they do a Frexit, what I'm wondering is,
:22:25. > :22:28.if it's a domino effect, is it the last man standing gets
:22:29. > :22:32.all the money? I'm a little tired of
:22:33. > :22:47.listening to a bad Brexit Why don't we just let these
:22:48. > :22:53.guys get on with it. All we hear is rhetoric
:22:54. > :22:57.in the newspaper, on the television. In a month's time we are going
:22:58. > :23:03.to have a confirmation Let them get on with it
:23:04. > :23:07.and we'll see where it takes Not stop talking about it,
:23:08. > :23:12.but hard and soft, the rhetoric isn't doing
:23:13. > :23:14.us any good. I think the fact that the EU
:23:15. > :23:22.is asking for any money for Britain undertaking a democratic exercise
:23:23. > :23:23.is frankly ridiculous, and it shows that we're dealing
:23:24. > :23:30.with bloody difficult men. That was the question
:23:31. > :23:36.that Robert asked. That's like asking in a divorce
:23:37. > :23:41.settlement before you go to court, does one partner get half the house,
:23:42. > :23:44.a quarter of the house, I mean, the point of negotiation
:23:45. > :23:49.is to be like adults, to sit around a table and to try
:23:50. > :23:52.and sort things out And going into these
:23:53. > :23:59.negotiations with the attitude the Prime Minister has got,
:24:00. > :24:02.all superior, we are better than them over there in Europe,
:24:03. > :24:06.is the wrong way to go about it. The only people that will end
:24:07. > :24:08.up with all the money in all of this are the lawyers,
:24:09. > :24:12.like they do in a real divorce. We don't know how much that will be
:24:13. > :24:26.yet, but we do know that that promise of ?350 million
:24:27. > :24:28.that was on that bus, that they said would go
:24:29. > :24:32.to the NHS every week, that is the figure that they rowed
:24:33. > :24:35.back on straight away. And many people that I know
:24:36. > :24:38.in the constituency I represent back in Wales are desperate to see money
:24:39. > :24:42.go back into the NHS. And they voted for Brexit
:24:43. > :24:47.on the basis of a lie. I think what we are forgetting
:24:48. > :24:56.is that David Cameron proved beyond any doubt,
:24:57. > :24:59.it's the EU who won't negotiate. He came back saying
:25:00. > :25:03.he'd got a good deal. I'll take a couple more points
:25:04. > :25:15.and I want to move on. I come to you waving at me,
:25:16. > :25:19.not because you are waving but because you have
:25:20. > :25:21.had your hand up. At the end of the day,
:25:22. > :25:24.Europe are trying to make an example out of Britain to try to prevent
:25:25. > :25:27.other member states doing exactly what we've done
:25:28. > :25:29.and having their own Brexits. And where was the person
:25:30. > :25:39.with the tattoos? Until a professional outside body
:25:40. > :25:42.adds up both assets and liabilities, who can have any idea
:25:43. > :25:45.what the bill can be? The interesting quote of the week
:25:46. > :25:51.was from Juncker when he said that The reason why he is saying
:25:52. > :25:56.that is because they are terrified, because if Brexit is a success
:25:57. > :25:59.and we are a beacon of light for the rest of the European Union,
:26:00. > :26:02.then France will go next, then Sweden will go,
:26:03. > :26:05.then Denmark will go and the whole And as for going into these
:26:06. > :26:09.negotiations, we can be confident. We have a huge trading deficit
:26:10. > :26:11.with the European Union. In many ways, they need us
:26:12. > :26:15.more than we need them. The six million jobs
:26:16. > :26:17.on the continent which are Now, this might be a devious
:26:18. > :26:22.organisation, it might be a bullying organisation,
:26:23. > :26:25.but it isn't a stupid organisation. And I think people like David can go
:26:26. > :26:27.into these negotiations confident that we can get a really good deal
:26:28. > :26:30.for the British people. Just to say before I do,
:26:31. > :26:44.next week we're going to be in Edinburgh and the week
:26:45. > :26:46.after that we are in Norwich. The details of how to apply
:26:47. > :26:49.are on the screen and I will Now here is a topic we have had
:26:50. > :26:56.a number of questions on. Why is the media refusing to portray
:26:57. > :26:59.Jeremy Corbyn in a positive light? In case you missed it,
:27:00. > :27:13.why is the media refusing to portray Well, I'm afraid they are reflecting
:27:14. > :27:20.a view not just of the media but of three quarters
:27:21. > :27:22.of the Labour Party who passed a vote of no
:27:23. > :27:25.confidence in him last year. My own opposite number,
:27:26. > :27:28.Keir Starmer, who is the shadow Brexit secretary, resigned last year
:27:29. > :27:32.and the words he gave were because he didn't think that
:27:33. > :27:36.Jeremy Corbyn could provide the leadership to negotiate
:27:37. > :27:41.a decent deal on Brexit. So I'm afraid what they are
:27:42. > :27:45.reflecting is a commonly held view. Now, look, I actually
:27:46. > :27:49.like Jeremy Corbyn. I took him to Washington with me
:27:50. > :27:53.when we got the release of the last British resident in Guantanamo Bay,
:27:54. > :27:57.and he was hopeful on that. But I'm afraid, in terms
:27:58. > :28:01.of actually leading a country, in terms of delivering
:28:02. > :28:03.on a government, in terms of making decisions, Brexit alone,
:28:04. > :28:05.six positions in nine months, he simply hasn't proved
:28:06. > :28:10.able to do the job. Laura, what's your
:28:11. > :28:21.complaint about the media? Nobody is listening to his policies
:28:22. > :28:25.and all the Conservatives seem to be doing is, like, portraying him
:28:26. > :28:29.in a negative light. They're not doing their own thing,
:28:30. > :28:32.they're just abusing him. And is that the papers, radio,
:28:33. > :28:35.television, everything? I'm in business and my role is not
:28:36. > :28:49.to take political sides. I see my role as working
:28:50. > :28:51.with whichever political party to help create a strong
:28:52. > :28:55.British economy. I think Jeremy Corbyn is clearly
:28:56. > :29:02.a man of strong conviction. I think in terms of business,
:29:03. > :29:08.what I would like to see is a little bit less of the "Business is nasty
:29:09. > :29:17.and you don't all pay your taxes". Of course, we know there
:29:18. > :29:19.are incidents of that but the truth is that business
:29:20. > :29:25.is a huge value creator. We pay, as business,
:29:26. > :29:28.when you take our corporation tax, National Insurance, all those tax,
:29:29. > :29:32.three quarters of all the taxes raised by the country
:29:33. > :29:35.is generated through business. We are a very important
:29:36. > :29:38.engine of the economy, and I would like to see a little bit
:29:39. > :29:41.more partnership of how we can work together
:29:42. > :29:45.and achieve economic growth. Laura says that the media
:29:46. > :29:48.are being unfair to Jeremy Corbyn, You know, I think the media
:29:49. > :29:56.will just pick up anything At the end of the day,
:29:57. > :30:03.I think our audience here today and the British population
:30:04. > :30:07.is intelligent to see through that and to make their decision based
:30:08. > :30:10.on the policies and based on the manifestos, and not what
:30:11. > :30:23.you're reading in the Daily Mail. APPLAUSE.
:30:24. > :30:28.OK. Leanne Wood? I think that the right and the far
:30:29. > :30:34.right on the march, not just here in the UK, but in other parts of the EU
:30:35. > :30:37.as well and in America, I think the media are reflecting that and anyone
:30:38. > :30:42.who's not on the right or the far right seems to be getting it. My
:30:43. > :30:48.colleague Nicola Sturgeon is getting a hard time as well. She's been
:30:49. > :30:53.described as one of the most difficult women in politics and I
:30:54. > :30:58.think part of that is around the way the media portray her. I would like
:30:59. > :31:01.to see a more balanced media, more balanced ideas. I think social media
:31:02. > :31:05.can help with some of that because it's not going through a filter. But
:31:06. > :31:10.I don't think the leader of the Labour Party is helping himself by
:31:11. > :31:14.refusing to participate in the electoral TV debates if the Prime
:31:15. > :31:18.Minister doesn't turn up. I think they should be both empty chaired if
:31:19. > :31:23.they don't show, but what they are doing by refusing to turn up is
:31:24. > :31:27.turning down that platform to put across your policy ideas, reducing
:31:28. > :31:31.the range of opinion available to people. There are large numbers of
:31:32. > :31:34.people who watch those television debates that might not access
:31:35. > :31:38.politics in any other way. I think it's important for democracy that
:31:39. > :31:41.they go ahead with the full range of opinion that's available.
:31:42. > :31:50.APPLAUSE. The woman there? I would like to
:31:51. > :31:53.say, I voted in the last general election, I'm voting in this general
:31:54. > :31:56.election and I would like to say, Jeremy Corbyn really turned my head
:31:57. > :32:00.to politics. He speaks about what is real and I don't think it's a case
:32:01. > :32:04.of the press being against him, I think it's just the case that
:32:05. > :32:09.no-one's reporting what Labour's actually standing for, people are
:32:10. > :32:14.voting for personalities and lies, rather than...
:32:15. > :32:18.APPLAUSE. Rebecca Long-Bailey, the question,
:32:19. > :32:23.is the media refusing to portray Jeremy Corbyn in a positive light.
:32:24. > :32:28.You may want to pick up on what Leanne said, he's not doing himself
:32:29. > :32:33.much of a service by refusing to debate with other party leaders?
:32:34. > :32:38.I'll be honest, it's been a struck until the media since Jeremy was
:32:39. > :32:42.elected leader. The media have focussed on divisions and people
:32:43. > :32:45.arguing with people within the party rather than reporting on our
:32:46. > :32:49.policies. We have a fight on our hands in this election, we are
:32:50. > :32:58.fighting for every single vote. While Theresa May is refusing to do
:32:59. > :33:01.TV debates and having stage-managed events, Jeremy is travelling the
:33:02. > :33:05.country showing how he'll represent Britain. This election is a choice,
:33:06. > :33:09.it's about having a Britain for the many, which is what the Labour Party
:33:10. > :33:12.believes in, where wealth and prosperity is shared, or it's a Tory
:33:13. > :33:15.Britain that only looks after a privileged few. And to come back to
:33:16. > :33:18.the point about business, it breaks my heart to hear you say that
:33:19. > :33:21.because we have been fighting to get our business message out there. We
:33:22. > :33:25.were at the front of the queue when it came to business rates, we were
:33:26. > :33:29.talking about how businesses were really being pushed to the edge of a
:33:30. > :33:34.cliff. We asked for manufacturing industries and other industries to
:33:35. > :33:38.be given support in the exemption of plant and machinery to grow their
:33:39. > :33:41.businesses because we think that Government and business in
:33:42. > :33:44.collaboration can deliver the future Britain needs, it will deliver the
:33:45. > :33:51.high-paid, high-skilled economy that these people need.
:33:52. > :33:54.APPLAUSE. Sorry, you didn't answer why he
:33:55. > :33:58.won't debate, even though Theresa May isn't there in the studio, why
:33:59. > :34:01.won't he debate with the others to get his ideas across? I think Jeremy
:34:02. > :34:05.having Theresa May taken the decision that he's taken he felt
:34:06. > :34:09.that it was necessary to go out and meet the people and develop his
:34:10. > :34:15.policies and discuss them with the general public. It's not one or the
:34:16. > :34:20.other, I'll be doing both. I'll be meeting the people and being
:34:21. > :34:23.involved in television debates. We are the opposition, we are the only
:34:24. > :34:26.chance of getting rid of the Tory party and Jeremy felt in order to
:34:27. > :34:32.get a fair hearing he needed to have a debate with Theresa May so if she
:34:33. > :34:36.comes to the debates a and I think she should because the British
:34:37. > :34:39.public need to hear what she has to say and she should be held to
:34:40. > :34:45.account, then Jeremy will be there as well. Politicians need to stop
:34:46. > :34:50.the mud-slinging. They quote this week mutton headed old mud lump, it
:34:51. > :34:57.does nobody any favour, it grabs headlines. It sets bad examples to
:34:58. > :35:00.children, we tell them not the bully and yet you're bullying each other
:35:01. > :35:05.in. The midst of all this we are losing the debates because the press
:35:06. > :35:07.are picking up on the mud slinging backwards and forwards, there's
:35:08. > :35:13.nothing reported about the policies and we need to hear the policies in
:35:14. > :35:19.adult grown-up debate. The TV debates are important. Yes, you on
:35:20. > :35:26.the gangway? Without debate, there can't be any scrutiny. Exactly.
:35:27. > :35:31.Theresa May's refused to debate Jeremy Corbyn. Silly sound bites are
:35:32. > :35:40.not match against honesty and integrity.
:35:41. > :35:45.APPLAUSE. That's why Mrs May will not debate
:35:46. > :35:51.with Jeremy Corbyn on TV. Because she does not have any policies. But
:35:52. > :35:55.she will on the other hand, as far as we know, at this stage, and it's
:35:56. > :36:02.not certain, debate with a Question Time audience. So she will argue her
:36:03. > :36:06.case with you and you and you and you. Why won't she debate Corbyn
:36:07. > :36:14.then? OK, I don't know the answer to that one. You, Sir, in the middle? I
:36:15. > :36:18.think my concern and I think a lot of people in the country would like
:36:19. > :36:23.to see Jeremy Corbyn because he will answer a question. All I've seen of
:36:24. > :36:26.Theresa May is dodge, Don, dodge, she hasn't answered anything
:36:27. > :36:29.directly. The BBC interview the other day, why can't we have
:36:30. > :36:33.politicians that will give us a direct answer like Jeremy Corbyn?
:36:34. > :36:38.APPLAUSE. Paul? Yes. Do you know, I sort of
:36:39. > :36:44.feel sorry for Jeremy Corbyn, I have to say. I think he's an honourable,
:36:45. > :36:49.principled man, I disagree with his principles. And the problem he's got
:36:50. > :36:52.is that, although the press or the media are plunging the knife in his
:36:53. > :37:06.chest, his own party are plunging the knife in his back all the time
:37:07. > :37:10.so he goes on TV talking about Trident then he's being contradicted
:37:11. > :37:19.an hour later boy they are members of his Shadow Cabinet.
:37:20. > :37:28.on the manifestos, and not what you're reading in the Daily Mail.
:37:29. > :37:31.You've got the Blairites who want a bit of Corbyn.
:37:32. > :37:34.You've got Corbyn himself who is in effect a throwback to a bygone era.
:37:35. > :37:38.But at least with Corbyn you've got a clear choice in this election,
:37:39. > :37:39.because unfortunately what happened with politics during the Blairite
:37:40. > :37:42.era is that everyone rushed to the Centre.
:37:43. > :37:44.I mean, there's a clear choice with Jeremy Corbyn as leader
:37:45. > :37:50.You could give me ten Jeremy Corbyns over any Tony Blair, any day.
:37:51. > :38:00.The use of food banks has increased under this Tory government.
:38:01. > :38:04.Should we hang our heads in shame that as one of the richest
:38:05. > :38:06.countries in the world, people are queueing for food?
:38:07. > :38:14.Juergen, would you like to start on that?
:38:15. > :38:21.The answer is that it's a real tragic situation, isn't it,
:38:22. > :38:26.that we've not been able to raise living standards, and we have
:38:27. > :38:32.and we have more in-work poverty than we have had before.
:38:33. > :38:35.However, we need to find a solution to that.
:38:36. > :38:37.And this is definitely an issue where, you know,
:38:38. > :38:41.we need to really raise above party politics, and there is a really
:38:42. > :38:49.And that is that we have, for decades, actually not focused
:38:50. > :38:53.on what is it that generates wealth in this country.
:38:54. > :39:00.And one of the key things that generates wealth is manufacturing.
:39:01. > :39:03.It's high-technology industries, which export,
:39:04. > :39:07.which create high-value jobs, which create productivity.
:39:08. > :39:10.And through those mechanisms, we can actually raise wages
:39:11. > :39:17.And we have not had a strategic approach for that,
:39:18. > :39:20.which has to be long-term, so it has to be across governments,
:39:21. > :39:24.And we need a much, much stronger focus on that,
:39:25. > :39:31.and only through that can we start raising living standards again.
:39:32. > :39:41.Wendy Doherty, David Davis, put it very vividly.
:39:42. > :39:45.Shouldn't we hang our heads in shame that in one of the richest
:39:46. > :39:47.countries in the world, people are queueing for free food?
:39:48. > :39:50.And nobody is comfortable with the idea of using food banks.
:39:51. > :39:57.Let me pick up on Juergen's point, because he has a point,
:39:58. > :40:00.that in the Western world we have to think much harder, be more agile
:40:01. > :40:01.about encouraging business, encouraging wealth creation.
:40:02. > :40:07.And that's what Theresa May, actually one of the unique things
:40:08. > :40:10.about her, in terms of leader of the Tory party, is she believes
:40:11. > :40:13.She believes in creating the foci for development,
:40:14. > :40:20.the innovation, the research, apprenticeships, all of these
:40:21. > :40:21.things central to her approach to Conservatism.
:40:22. > :40:25.You can't do it without wealth creation.
:40:26. > :40:28.At the other end, the thing that brings people out of poverty is not,
:40:29. > :40:37.It's getting up to do a job that brings self-respect, brings money.
:40:38. > :40:40.And we've got 2.8 million more people in work today than we had
:40:41. > :40:43.when we came into power, the highest level of employment ever
:40:44. > :40:46.in our country and the lowest level of unemployment for over a decade.
:40:47. > :40:56.When the Prime Minister appeared on Andrew Marr's programme,
:40:57. > :40:59.he quoted to her the Royal College of Nursing saying that nurses
:41:00. > :41:01.were even turning to food banks, employed nurses were turning
:41:02. > :41:08.And her reply was, there are many complex reasons.
:41:09. > :41:11.Presumably people go to food banks because they are hungry.
:41:12. > :41:13.People have short-term cash issues, all sorts of things.
:41:14. > :41:16.The complexity of individual people's lives.
:41:17. > :41:23.But that doesn't mean it's something you want to see.
:41:24. > :41:26.The main reason that people are going to food banks
:41:27. > :41:29.is because there are delays with paying benefits and there have
:41:30. > :41:32.been changes to social security with the pernicious Tory welfare
:41:33. > :41:38.reforms which have cut money to people with disabilities.
:41:39. > :41:43.They've cut money to the children whose parents have been bereaved.
:41:44. > :41:46.They've cut money to any third, fourth or fifth child in a family,
:41:47. > :41:49.unless the mother can prove that she was raped when that
:41:50. > :42:00.And if we give the Tories a bigger mandate in this election,
:42:01. > :42:10.There's been a lot of conversation about industry being the main way
:42:11. > :42:12.of us avoiding the use of food banks.
:42:13. > :42:15.However, what happens when those people using the food banks
:42:16. > :42:17.are your public sector workers, where industry isn't
:42:18. > :42:22.We seem to have stopped caring firstly about those
:42:23. > :42:25.that need caring for, and secondly for the people that
:42:26. > :42:29.And we seem to have no answer to that currently.
:42:30. > :42:36.I have not visited a food bank before but I have
:42:37. > :42:46.And the vast majority of them that do go for free food smoke,
:42:47. > :42:52.Some people use food banks who are in work.
:42:53. > :43:06.Last night I travelled through Wigan town centre to Hindley and I saw ten
:43:07. > :43:21.people sitting in doorways, obviously not watching Sky.
:43:22. > :43:24.The benefit system as we refer to it is the main reason people
:43:25. > :43:26.are falling out of society and living on the streets.
:43:27. > :43:29.There's been an exponential increase in homelessness, and it's
:43:30. > :43:42.Well I'm telling you, it's a purposely designed
:43:43. > :43:50.policy of creating more dismay and discomfort.
:43:51. > :43:53.And this man is not an unintelligent man, and he knows what's going on.
:43:54. > :44:04.The party that introduced the living wage, which is actually
:44:05. > :44:06.raising people's wages, the party that is creating a welfare
:44:07. > :44:13.system that's trying to give people an to get back to work.
:44:14. > :44:18.-- trying to give people an incentive to get back to work.
:44:19. > :44:26.Of course there's a homeless problem.
:44:27. > :44:28.Well, and we've been building more houses
:44:29. > :44:30.to help with that, too, 313,000 houses in
:44:31. > :44:39.Well, look, we are in Wigan tonight and I'm sure many of the audience
:44:40. > :44:41.members have read the famous book the Road to Wigan Pier
:44:42. > :44:44.by George Orwell where in the 1930s he travelled across the country
:44:45. > :44:47.to see how people, often in work, were living in destitution.
:44:48. > :44:49.There's a group of people recreating his footsteps.
:44:50. > :44:50.Recently they visited a Staffordshire food bank.
:44:51. > :44:53.And in that food bank they met a man who walked seven
:44:54. > :44:58.He was on a zero-hours contract, often turned away and had to walk
:44:59. > :45:04.He was 50 and he'd spent 15 years fighting for Britain
:45:05. > :45:12.Now, is this the kind of Britain he deserves,
:45:13. > :45:15.where he is forced to rely on charity?
:45:16. > :45:17.I think it's absolutely shameful that we have food
:45:18. > :45:22.banks on our streets, that we aren't building an economy
:45:23. > :45:25.that will keep people sustained, that we've got a government that
:45:26. > :45:28.hands out tax breaks to a wealthy elite whilst cutting the benefits
:45:29. > :45:32.And I agree wholeheartedly with the comments made
:45:33. > :45:35.about investing in business and industry to create
:45:36. > :45:37.those high-paid, high skilled jobs of the future,
:45:38. > :45:41.but unfortunately this government isn't delivering that.
:45:42. > :45:45.We're one of the lowest countries in the OECD in terms of investment
:45:46. > :45:48.in industry and innovation at 1.7% of GDP.
:45:49. > :45:52.Our competitors around the world are on 3%.
:45:53. > :45:56.So to deliver the economy that this country deserves and to share
:45:57. > :45:58.the wealth equally around the regions and nations,
:45:59. > :46:01.we need to elect a Labour government so that we can invest
:46:02. > :46:12.Quite clearly there is a problem with homelessness in this country.
:46:13. > :46:17.There's lots of issues surrounding why people end up homeless,
:46:18. > :46:20.mental health issues, there can be issues
:46:21. > :46:25.Obviously people being put out of work as well.
:46:26. > :46:29.Clearly, there isn't enough houses in Britain.
:46:30. > :46:34.The problem that we've got is that we've had a massive population boom,
:46:35. > :46:37.and that does go back to the issue of how many people
:46:38. > :46:40.But equally, we haven't built enough houses over the years.
:46:41. > :46:46.We need a real council house building programme.
:46:47. > :46:50.And we're sitting here in Wigan tonight.
:46:51. > :46:53.This is part of my constituency, I am an MEP for the north-west.
:46:54. > :46:56.And I just feel as if we've been left behind.
:46:57. > :46:58.Because everything in this country, all of the money, everything
:46:59. > :47:07.What we want to see is not only real devolved power
:47:08. > :47:13.The Tories had this Northern powerhouse,
:47:14. > :47:22.I'll give you an example just before I finish.
:47:23. > :47:25.In London they are spending ?5,000 per head on infrastructure.
:47:26. > :47:29.In the north-east of England it's about ?400.
:47:30. > :47:33.We need to get the money out of London and out of places
:47:34. > :47:45.-- we need to get it out to places like the north-west of England.
:47:46. > :47:48.One point from the woman in the third row and then we'll go
:47:49. > :47:54.The issue of food banks, you say it's about job creation,
:47:55. > :47:57.Surely it's going to get worse because with artificial
:47:58. > :48:00.intelligence, jobs in the service sector are going to be impacted.
:48:01. > :48:02.Anything that is repeatable, a robot can do it.
:48:03. > :48:09.Well, you raise a very good point here, and this is exactly why
:48:10. > :48:13.we need a much stronger focus on investing and innovation and R
:48:14. > :48:18.Because actually my calculation is that as long as we invest very
:48:19. > :48:20.well, we can actually create more jobs than we displace
:48:21. > :48:25.through the implementation of these technologies.
:48:26. > :48:27.But we have to, with that, create the new industries.
:48:28. > :48:30.We have to create instead of having the manufacturing jobs.
:48:31. > :48:33.It will be jobs who are writing software, creating
:48:34. > :48:37.We have to create new jobs in technologies like
:48:38. > :48:43.Here in Wigan there some companies creating brand-new textiles
:48:44. > :48:50.And more of that can create more jobs, highly paid jobs,
:48:51. > :48:52.more tax income, which will pay for more welfare,
:48:53. > :49:00.I said earlier on when it was briefly
:49:01. > :49:03.mentioned by one or two of you that we would come
:49:04. > :49:07.Rebecca Crabtree, with a rather different take on the usual
:49:08. > :49:16.As a portrayed saviour of the NHS, how does the Labour Party plan
:49:17. > :49:19.to combat an NHS culture of wastage, inefficiency and poor
:49:20. > :49:29.It's a question that everybody around
:49:30. > :49:34.Paul Nuttall, what do you say to that?
:49:35. > :49:44.While you have a chance to think, Paul!
:49:45. > :49:47.Well, the question is, obviously behind Rebecca's question
:49:48. > :49:49.is that the NHS has a culture of wastage, inefficiency
:49:50. > :49:58.It's no good just putting money into it.
:49:59. > :50:05.Well, you have to start by putting money into it. People are getting
:50:06. > :50:09.older, the demands on the health service are greater. More high-tech
:50:10. > :50:13.medicine has to be delivered, which is expensive. So you do have to put
:50:14. > :50:16.money in and that starts with the economy. If you don't deliver the
:50:17. > :50:22.money, do not have enough created in the economy, you can't do it. We put
:50:23. > :50:27.in 10 billion so far. We are talking about your 350 million a week, at 10
:50:28. > :50:33.billion is more than the Labour Party promised that the last
:50:34. > :50:36.election. Out of that, to be fair, talking about inefficiency, the
:50:37. > :50:39.health service is actually delivering, according to independent
:50:40. > :50:46.reviews, better major care, better outcomes than three years ago, five
:50:47. > :50:50.years ago, ten years ago. So we should be fair, it is doing a good
:50:51. > :50:53.job, it is still a world leader in many respects. Beyond that, we have
:50:54. > :50:59.to keep innovating. We have a proposal, sustainability and
:51:00. > :51:03.transformation partnerships, which will actually improve delivery on
:51:04. > :51:07.the ground. Labour are opposing it, even though they supported it six
:51:08. > :51:11.months ago. But that sort of reform will deliver better outcomes again.
:51:12. > :51:16.They are improving but they will improve even further. Rebecca, come
:51:17. > :51:20.back to your question. You are missing the point that just putting
:51:21. > :51:25.money into something is not the solution. Much of the money is
:51:26. > :51:29.wasted because we have not got enough nurses, midwives, and the
:51:30. > :51:33.money is being wasted on agency staff, who get paid approximately
:51:34. > :51:40.three times the wage. APPLAUSE
:51:41. > :51:48.And that is what I mean about inefficiency in the NHS.
:51:49. > :51:52.It is not run like a business. Rebecca Long Bailey, you say you are
:51:53. > :51:57.putting money into the NHS but it is not run like a business and the
:51:58. > :52:01.money will be wasted, Rebecca says. There has been a narrative put out
:52:02. > :52:06.about the NHS for some time in terms of inefficiency and wastage. There
:52:07. > :52:11.can always be changes made to make systems more efficient, but it seems
:52:12. > :52:15.it has come out of Jeremy Hunt's playbook. Remember, he co-authored a
:52:16. > :52:21.book calling for the privatisation of the NHS, so we know where the
:52:22. > :52:26.rhetoric is coming from and what is. The picture of the child lying on
:52:27. > :52:30.two plastic chairs in an A corridor haunts me and many in the
:52:31. > :52:34.audience, I'm sure, because that is the extent of the NHS crisis. We
:52:35. > :52:38.have over 1 million vulnerable people who cannot look after
:52:39. > :52:43.themselves because of cuts to social care. The crisis was of this
:52:44. > :52:47.government was Mac making. They were setting it up for privatisation.
:52:48. > :52:53.They orchestrated a top-down reorganisation which cost ?3 billion
:52:54. > :52:59.and did not have a positive outcome. Can you point to any privatisation?
:53:00. > :53:04.They cut ?600 million from mental health and 4.6 billion from social
:53:05. > :53:13.care. They are driving it into the sea. Can you point to any? The rate
:53:14. > :53:16.of use of non-NHS health care was much higher, the growth rate was
:53:17. > :53:20.much higher under Tony Blair's Labour than it has been under the
:53:21. > :53:26.Conservative coalition governments. So how can you point to this as
:53:27. > :53:30.supposedly some sort of privatisation initiative? There no
:53:31. > :53:36.facts behind your argument. I would read Jeremy Hunt's book if you have
:53:37. > :53:40.not looked at it. It is a race to was an American -based insurance
:53:41. > :53:43.system that is privatised. And we haven't got it. The lady quite
:53:44. > :53:47.properly raised the issue of the demand on the health service. 11,000
:53:48. > :53:52.more doctors, over 12,000 more nurses and midwives since we have
:53:53. > :53:56.been empowered. That is not privatisation, that is public money
:53:57. > :53:59.put in for public service, delivering better outcomes for
:54:00. > :54:07.people suffering from dreadful diseases. Juergen Maier. I watch
:54:08. > :54:10.this programme pretty much every week and it seems we have the same
:54:11. > :54:15.debate every week. And I don't think we are going to resolve it by saying
:54:16. > :54:20.we need to throw many more billions into the service, which is exactly
:54:21. > :54:24.the point that you are asking. I think there is a fundamental issue
:54:25. > :54:29.here, and when I compare the National health system here too that
:54:30. > :54:32.I have experienced in Germany and Austria, a fundamental difference is
:54:33. > :54:39.that we just do not put the focus on preventative health. And what that
:54:40. > :54:42.means is that our hospitals, our health service is just overloaded,
:54:43. > :54:45.so they don't have any time to actually sort out their
:54:46. > :54:49.efficiencies, which is your point. I think there is a solution, and the
:54:50. > :54:54.solution is potentially happening right here in Greater Manchester.
:54:55. > :54:57.This will be one of the first evolved city regions where there
:54:58. > :55:02.will be the funding for both social care and the National health has --
:55:03. > :55:05.and the national health system will be under one responsible T. That is
:55:06. > :55:10.the first time there will be an incentive in the system to make sure
:55:11. > :55:15.that we do more preventative medicine, to make sure that people
:55:16. > :55:19.do not end up in hospital and do not end up with the actual social care,
:55:20. > :55:31.after-care type of issues. I think that is the way we have to go to get
:55:32. > :55:34.more efficiency. The NHS is its workers. That is what this
:55:35. > :55:40.government is not putting money into. 1% pay rise again this year.
:55:41. > :55:45.That is for the last seven years, 1%, which is devaluing the wages of
:55:46. > :55:49.nurses, encouraging people to go on banks and to go to agencies, to
:55:50. > :55:53.leave the country. There is a shortage of doctors and nurses but
:55:54. > :55:58.you will not give us a pay rise. APPLAUSE
:55:59. > :56:04.We only have a couple of minutes left.
:56:05. > :56:08.The first thing you could do is to merge social care and health care.
:56:09. > :56:11.In January there were 1 million people lying in hospital beds who
:56:12. > :56:17.could not leave because they had nowhere else to go. It's insane. The
:56:18. > :56:20.problem we have is that when Labour came to power in 1997 we were
:56:21. > :56:25.spending 33,000,000,000-a-year on the NHS, and when they left we were
:56:26. > :56:30.spending 99 billion. The problem is that they stuffed the NHS with pen
:56:31. > :56:30.pushers, bureaucrats and managers, OK.
:56:31. > :56:40.APPLAUSE I have to stop you, Paul.
:56:41. > :56:45.He wants to privatise the NHS. He has said in the past that he wants
:56:46. > :56:48.to privatise the NHS. Our NHS needs defending. It is a risk of
:56:49. > :56:53.privatisation and has been underfunded. I agree that there is
:56:54. > :56:57.waste in terms of agency staff and locums, and we need investment in
:56:58. > :57:01.staff. Isn't it interesting that those on the top of the pay grade
:57:02. > :57:05.get decent paying creases, while those at the bottom are those who
:57:06. > :57:06.have had the pay freeze? APPLAUSE
:57:07. > :57:14.Very quickly, because we have 30 seconds left.
:57:15. > :57:18.A lot of the problem is streamlining they are trying to do with the NHS.
:57:19. > :57:21.That little boy might have been waiting for a bed in another
:57:22. > :57:25.district general because there was no bed in his hospital -- his
:57:26. > :57:29.hospital that he was in A for, because they closed the beds and
:57:30. > :57:35.moved it to a different one and were waiting for an anvil him. This is
:57:36. > :57:42.the streamlining causing a backlog of patients in A At the back. The
:57:43. > :57:46.main issue that we have and we are bypassing is the amount of people
:57:47. > :57:50.that are in this country. We are a very tiny country with too many
:57:51. > :57:55.people, and the funding with the NHS does not recognise that. As Paul has
:57:56. > :57:58.just noted, it was Labour and Tony Blair who opened our borders and
:57:59. > :58:04.that rose dramatically, so how are we going to do that? You are more
:58:05. > :58:13.likely to have an immigrant treating you. People that want to work in
:58:14. > :58:20.that sector. We have a shortage of doctors. We need more immigrants.
:58:21. > :58:26.The don't want to work there because there is too much pressure. As has
:58:27. > :58:29.been said, we always debate this on Question Time and we have run out of
:58:30. > :58:33.time before we have got through everyone with their hand up.
:58:34. > :58:36.Apologies, but our time is up. We will be in Edinburgh next week and
:58:37. > :58:41.Norwich the week after, so come and join us there. Edinburgh and
:58:42. > :58:47.Norwich. On the screen is the website and the number to apply. If
:58:48. > :58:52.you are listening on five live on medium wave, if you are able to get
:58:53. > :58:56.it, which I never can, the debate carries on until the early hours of
:58:57. > :59:00.the morning and it is very exciting and vivid when you catch it. My
:59:01. > :59:03.thanks to our panel and to all of you who came to Wigan to take part.
:59:04. > :59:09.Until next Thursday, good night.