0:00:04 > 0:00:09Welcome to Question Time, which tonight comes from Norwich.
0:00:15 > 0:00:18And on our panel here tonight, the Conservative cabinet minister
0:00:18 > 0:00:23in charge of international development, Priti Patel.
0:00:23 > 0:00:27Labour's Shadow Education Secretary, Angela Rayner.
0:00:27 > 0:00:31The Liberal Democrats' former Business Secretary, Vince Cable.
0:00:31 > 0:00:35The joint leader of the Green Party, Jonathan Bartley.
0:00:35 > 0:00:36And the journalist and Margaret Thatcher's
0:00:36 > 0:00:43authorised biographer, Charles Moore.
0:00:48 > 0:00:49Thank you.
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0:01:06 > 0:01:11Let's have our first question which comes from Jason Dyer, please.
0:01:11 > 0:01:12Thank you, David.
0:01:12 > 0:01:15I would like to know, ask the panel, after paying taxes
0:01:15 > 0:01:17all your working life, do you think it is fair that
0:01:17 > 0:01:20you have to sell your family home to pay for the care?
0:01:20 > 0:01:24Is it fair you have to sell your family home to pay for your care
0:01:24 > 0:01:26costs in the manifesto today?
0:01:26 > 0:01:28Priti Patel, is it fair?
0:01:28 > 0:01:31Well, it's not fair, and that's not what we are proposing.
0:01:31 > 0:01:34We are very clear in terms of the fact that we need
0:01:34 > 0:01:36to take some decisions now, long-term decisions about how
0:01:36 > 0:01:40we look to the future and address the ageing population and the needs
0:01:40 > 0:01:43of social care.
0:01:43 > 0:01:46So what we are saying is that we will put in place now
0:01:46 > 0:01:49this ability and the safeguard of ?100,000 so people can
0:01:49 > 0:01:52still keep their house, they don't have to sell their house,
0:01:52 > 0:01:57but they are protected now in terms of their long-term care costs.
0:01:57 > 0:01:59And that applies to people that are having residential care,
0:01:59 > 0:02:03so in care homes, as well as those that now have care at home as well.
0:02:03 > 0:02:06Whereas previously the focus was only on those that went
0:02:06 > 0:02:08into care home settings.
0:02:08 > 0:02:10Isn't it what you use to call the death tax,
0:02:10 > 0:02:12when Labour suggested something very like it?
0:02:12 > 0:02:14I think Labour were proposing something totally different
0:02:14 > 0:02:17which was a tax on all assets, property, carte blanche.
0:02:17 > 0:02:22We have been clearer about having this ?100,000 level, which,
0:02:22 > 0:02:24you know, makes it very clear that people don't have
0:02:24 > 0:02:26to sell their homes.
0:02:26 > 0:02:29They can stay in their homes and they can keep their properties.
0:02:29 > 0:02:31But their children have to sell them.
0:02:31 > 0:02:32Well, there is obviously a position afterwards
0:02:32 > 0:02:36in terms of whether or not, it's family members, effectively.
0:02:36 > 0:02:37OK, Vince Cable.
0:02:37 > 0:02:39Well, Priti's completely wrong.
0:02:39 > 0:02:42I mean, there is no cap on the amount of money
0:02:42 > 0:02:44that you have to pay.
0:02:44 > 0:02:47If you contract one of these degenerative diseases, dementia,
0:02:47 > 0:02:52or some other complicated matter, that involves very, very large
0:02:52 > 0:02:55expenditure on social care, there is no limit
0:02:55 > 0:02:58to what you have to pay.
0:02:58 > 0:03:00There is a crucial difference between what this Government
0:03:00 > 0:03:04is proposing, and what we agreed under the coalition.
0:03:04 > 0:03:07We said under the coalition that there should be a cap, ?75,000.
0:03:07 > 0:03:13We agreed it was in the legislation and the government have pulled it.
0:03:13 > 0:03:14And what happens now, it's a lottery.
0:03:14 > 0:03:20If you grow old without ill health problems and then
0:03:20 > 0:03:24perhaps die quickly, there aren't big social care bills.
0:03:24 > 0:03:28If you are one of those unfortunate people that have these degenerative
0:03:28 > 0:03:32conditions over a long period of time, you have massive social
0:03:32 > 0:03:35care bills, it's surely fair that society should protect you.
0:03:35 > 0:03:41And that's why we talked about having a cap to the amount
0:03:41 > 0:03:42of social care pay levels.
0:03:42 > 0:03:44Under the Government's proposal, that is withdrawn.
0:03:44 > 0:03:47It is a wicked lottery.
0:03:47 > 0:03:51And there's a lot of hypocrisy in this because in the last year
0:03:51 > 0:03:55or so, the Tories introduced, they cut inheritance tax.
0:03:55 > 0:04:01Supposedly to help people pass on property to their children.
0:04:01 > 0:04:04But what will now happen is that if you are one of those unfortunate
0:04:04 > 0:04:07people who has got unlimited care costs, you will be paying
0:04:07 > 0:04:10100% inheritance tax.
0:04:10 > 0:04:13All of your family savings will disappear.
0:04:13 > 0:04:17It is a lottery, it is grossly unfair and it is a big step
0:04:17 > 0:04:20backwards from where we were a few years ago.
0:04:20 > 0:04:24APPLAUSE
0:04:26 > 0:04:28Charles Moore.
0:04:28 > 0:04:29Well, I'm not sure if the Government's proposal
0:04:29 > 0:04:33is necessarily right but I actually do think that it is not wrong
0:04:33 > 0:04:39to have to use your house to help fund your care.
0:04:39 > 0:04:43And it is particularly true if you are reasonably well off,
0:04:43 > 0:04:46which obviously a large number of, though by no means all,
0:04:46 > 0:04:48house owners are.
0:04:48 > 0:04:50I don't understand why your house has to be treated
0:04:50 > 0:04:53completely separate away from any other possession.
0:04:53 > 0:04:56I notice in the Conservative manifesto it says "one purpose
0:04:56 > 0:05:00of long-term saving is to cover needs in old age".
0:05:00 > 0:05:01That is a fair point.
0:05:01 > 0:05:02It is.
0:05:02 > 0:05:05And we ought to think about that.
0:05:05 > 0:05:08And that is an important thing you have to work out.
0:05:08 > 0:05:14If you don't follow the rule, then what happens is that the Government
0:05:14 > 0:05:17is paying out huge care bills to people who actually have
0:05:17 > 0:05:20quite a lot of money, because they have these houses.
0:05:20 > 0:05:25Many people nowadays have a house worth ?400,000, that sort of thing.
0:05:25 > 0:05:30And if that's totally protected, and the Government has to subsidise
0:05:30 > 0:05:35them, then the subsidy, that subsidy is harder to find for
0:05:35 > 0:05:37people who actually really need it.
0:05:37 > 0:05:41I notice one thing the Tories are trying to do in all of this,
0:05:41 > 0:05:43not just about care, they are trying to focus all kinds
0:05:43 > 0:05:45of social help on where need is.
0:05:45 > 0:05:50They are trying to get rid of this idea that everybody can get it.
0:05:50 > 0:05:52This is going to annoy a lot of Tory voters,
0:05:52 > 0:05:56because as a matter of fact a lot of Tory voters are quite used
0:05:56 > 0:05:59to being quite well off and getting quite a lot of government money
0:05:59 > 0:06:00for one thing and another.
0:06:00 > 0:06:03And what Mrs May is doing, because she is talking
0:06:03 > 0:06:05about the "just about managing" people, she is trying to focus
0:06:05 > 0:06:07on them, who were historically considered perhaps more
0:06:07 > 0:06:09Labour voters.
0:06:09 > 0:06:13She is thinking they are actually going to really need care much more
0:06:13 > 0:06:15than a lot of the people who get it automatically.
0:06:15 > 0:06:16So that's the thinking.
0:06:16 > 0:06:19And as a broad point, it's reasonable.
0:06:19 > 0:06:23APPLAUSE
0:06:23 > 0:06:25Angela Rayner.
0:06:25 > 0:06:28Well, it's clear to me that the Conservatives have replaced
0:06:28 > 0:06:31the triple lock with a triple whammy for pensioners,
0:06:31 > 0:06:32if I am quite honest.
0:06:32 > 0:06:35The winter fuel allowance, the issues around pension cuts,
0:06:35 > 0:06:38and now this issue around what we are dubbing
0:06:38 > 0:06:41the dementia tax.
0:06:41 > 0:06:42And I'm pretty cross about this.
0:06:42 > 0:06:46I'm cross about it because what led me into Parliament was being a home
0:06:46 > 0:06:49help and looking after people in their own homes.
0:06:49 > 0:06:54And they were told, do the right thing all your life, work hard.
0:06:54 > 0:06:56They bought their homes in good faith, they saved
0:06:56 > 0:07:00in their pensions in good faith, and they are having it
0:07:00 > 0:07:03stolen away from them, whether it is women born
0:07:03 > 0:07:07in the 1950s, the Waspy women, having their pensions stolen.
0:07:07 > 0:07:09Now they are saying they are going to take your assets
0:07:09 > 0:07:11as well in your home.
0:07:11 > 0:07:12It doesn't have to be like that.
0:07:12 > 0:07:13It's a disgrace.
0:07:13 > 0:07:16And it's the actual deprived areas, Charles, that are facing
0:07:16 > 0:07:19the most significant cuts through council cuts.
0:07:19 > 0:07:21In my constituency of Ashton-under-Lyne,
0:07:21 > 0:07:24Oldham and Tameside councillors, half of their budget is cut
0:07:24 > 0:07:27under the Conservatives, which has affected those very same
0:07:27 > 0:07:30people they are saying they are trying to help.
0:07:30 > 0:07:34It is vicious, it's nasty and it's not the way to run our services.
0:07:34 > 0:07:38APPLAUSE
0:07:38 > 0:07:40We are protecting people's assets.
0:07:40 > 0:07:42It is right that people save.
0:07:42 > 0:07:45We are a country that saves, and people do
0:07:45 > 0:07:48save and accumulate their assets, but we are protecting
0:07:48 > 0:07:49people's assets.
0:07:49 > 0:07:53You wait until they die and then you're going to snatch it from them.
0:07:53 > 0:07:54So what is Labour's solution then?
0:07:54 > 0:07:56You are going to snatch it from them.
0:07:56 > 0:07:58We are taking a long-term approach to social care provision.
0:07:58 > 0:08:01It is not sustainable, Angela, to carry on in the way
0:08:01 > 0:08:03in which we are doing so right now.
0:08:03 > 0:08:06You are cutting taxes to the rich, you have cut corporation tax to 17%,
0:08:06 > 0:08:08you've cut capital gains tax.
0:08:08 > 0:08:10And that helps to grow the economy and grow jobs.
0:08:10 > 0:08:11No, it doesn't.
0:08:11 > 0:08:14Margaret Thatcher's level was at 33%.
0:08:14 > 0:08:17We are at 17%.
0:08:17 > 0:08:18We can pay for our older relatives.
0:08:18 > 0:08:20We don't need to be this way.
0:08:20 > 0:08:25Angela, you listed among other things the winter fuel payment
0:08:25 > 0:08:28being abolished but that was in your manifesto in 2015 for
0:08:28 > 0:08:30the better off, wasn't it?
0:08:30 > 0:08:33Well, if you look at our manifesto that we've put forward...
0:08:33 > 0:08:36No, in 2015 when you were elected, it said you would stop paying winter
0:08:36 > 0:08:38fuel payments to the richest.
0:08:38 > 0:08:41But I'm talking about our manifesto that we are standing on today.
0:08:41 > 0:08:43So you've given that up then.
0:08:43 > 0:08:45Well, we are looking at our manifesto now.
0:08:45 > 0:08:47If you look at the Conservatives' manifesto, they are cutting
0:08:47 > 0:08:50all of their promises to older people of this country.
0:08:50 > 0:08:52Whereas our manifesto says we will look after everybody.
0:08:52 > 0:08:54It's about a choice.
0:08:54 > 0:08:56How are you going to pay for that?
0:08:56 > 0:08:59What sort of society do you want to live in?
0:08:59 > 0:09:01One where they attack the poor, the disabled, the pensioners?
0:09:01 > 0:09:06Or do you want one where they cut corporation tax to the richest?
0:09:06 > 0:09:08It is ensuring that valuable public money goes to people
0:09:08 > 0:09:11that actually need this, and that is the purpose of why
0:09:11 > 0:09:13we are making the changes to winter fuel payments,
0:09:13 > 0:09:15so it goes to those that need the help.
0:09:15 > 0:09:17There's no real point in a system, Angela,
0:09:17 > 0:09:19in which David Dimbleby and Vince Cable, to mention
0:09:19 > 0:09:21two people who are slightly getting on in years,
0:09:21 > 0:09:23could get the winter fuel allowance.
0:09:23 > 0:09:24Why should they?
0:09:24 > 0:09:26It's just ridiculous waste of public money.
0:09:26 > 0:09:29Angela, I'm going to stop you because you've said quite a lot.
0:09:29 > 0:09:30Well, they are asking me.
0:09:30 > 0:09:32I'm saying that when you are means testing, you are not
0:09:32 > 0:09:33making any savings.
0:09:33 > 0:09:35I will come back to you.
0:09:35 > 0:09:36Jonathan Bartley.
0:09:36 > 0:09:38I want to answer your question, Jason.
0:09:38 > 0:09:39Let's back up a little bit.
0:09:39 > 0:09:43When the NHS was set up, and the NHS is very close to social care,
0:09:43 > 0:09:45they have knock-on effects to one another, it was set up
0:09:45 > 0:09:48with the principle that we don't know what the future
0:09:48 > 0:09:49is going to hold.
0:09:49 > 0:09:51And therefore, as a society, collectively, we will make
0:09:51 > 0:09:54the provision that if someone does need ten years social care,
0:09:54 > 0:09:57if they do need a major operation, or if they are healthy and lucky
0:09:57 > 0:09:59enough to have a very long life of health,
0:09:59 > 0:10:01they should all have the security.
0:10:01 > 0:10:04And that should be funded by all of us, not singling out
0:10:04 > 0:10:06individuals and breaking that social contract between us.
0:10:06 > 0:10:09Now the Conservatives are breaking that social contract.
0:10:09 > 0:10:11They are piling pressure on the individual.
0:10:11 > 0:10:14APPLAUSE
0:10:14 > 0:10:16We are not doing that.
0:10:16 > 0:10:19We should also be clear about what the context is.
0:10:19 > 0:10:22This is not coming about because we suddenly have an ageing population.
0:10:22 > 0:10:24This social care crisis is because we've had chronic
0:10:24 > 0:10:27cuts and underfunding at the local authority level.
0:10:27 > 0:10:30APPLAUSE
0:10:30 > 0:10:3337% cuts to local authority, a ?4.6 billion deficit in social care.
0:10:33 > 0:10:39And that is why we are now getting that move.
0:10:39 > 0:10:41Where would you get the money from?
0:10:41 > 0:10:44Everybody agrees there have been cutbacks.
0:10:44 > 0:10:47We could just go back to reverse what the Conservatives
0:10:47 > 0:10:51have done since 2010.
0:10:51 > 0:10:54We have ?122 billion not going into the public purse
0:10:54 > 0:10:56because of cuts to corporation tax, because of giving tax
0:10:56 > 0:10:59breaks to the richest 50%.
0:10:59 > 0:11:01Let me hear from some of the audience.
0:11:01 > 0:11:02The man in the pink shirt.
0:11:02 > 0:11:03Hello.
0:11:03 > 0:11:08I think people may be inclined to agree and accept the rise
0:11:08 > 0:11:13to ?100,000 if the social care was adequate, and it isn't.
0:11:13 > 0:11:15My father's been ill for 11 years, bedridden for four.
0:11:15 > 0:11:19The social care gets carers coming in.
0:11:19 > 0:11:22He's had to change them seven times in the last two years
0:11:22 > 0:11:24because the standards are very low, the staff have turnover,
0:11:24 > 0:11:27they are unprofessional, he is left in squalor and they can't
0:11:27 > 0:11:30save and maintain their own house because they're spending
0:11:30 > 0:11:33all the bills on the care.
0:11:33 > 0:11:35And he's worked all his life.
0:11:35 > 0:11:37He's paying for the care but you don't think
0:11:37 > 0:11:38the care is good enough.
0:11:38 > 0:11:42Because he has a Parkinson type syndrome, he's not entitled
0:11:42 > 0:11:45to have the care paid.
0:11:45 > 0:11:49If he had cancer, he would be fully entitled to have his care paid for.
0:11:49 > 0:11:54Are you saying the actual quality of care he gets is not adequate?
0:11:54 > 0:11:55It's not up to standard.
0:11:55 > 0:11:59I'm a nurse myself, and that is how I judge.
0:11:59 > 0:12:02The woman there.
0:12:02 > 0:12:05I work in the Millennium Library here in Norwich,
0:12:05 > 0:12:10which is the busiest, a very good library, in Britain.
0:12:10 > 0:12:14And we see what the cuts have done every day to the people that
0:12:14 > 0:12:17are coming into the library, and I feel very strongly.
0:12:17 > 0:12:18I think Angela is absolutely right.
0:12:18 > 0:12:24The cuts, we've absolutely been cut to the bone.
0:12:24 > 0:12:27And now Theresa May is attacking the pensions.
0:12:27 > 0:12:32The pensions actually started out, what was it, 1909,
0:12:32 > 0:12:35the first pension, seven and six.
0:12:35 > 0:12:39People talk about Corbyn's Britain going back to the 1970s.
0:12:39 > 0:12:46What about the Tories going back to, like, the 1870s?
0:12:46 > 0:12:49It's becoming Victorian, what's happening in this country.
0:12:49 > 0:12:55APPLAUSE
0:12:55 > 0:12:58The man in the blue shirt.
0:12:58 > 0:13:02What I struggle with at the moment is there seems to be an easy win.
0:13:02 > 0:13:05We all recognise that the NHS, police and everybody
0:13:05 > 0:13:08need more money.
0:13:08 > 0:13:11Why hasn't any of the political parties committed to reducing
0:13:11 > 0:13:14the overseas aid budget, which is about 12 billion a year,
0:13:14 > 0:13:17even if it is just for a short time?
0:13:17 > 0:13:21Let's cut that back and let's reinstate it when we've
0:13:21 > 0:13:23balanced the budget.
0:13:23 > 0:13:26We may come to that question in a moment.
0:13:26 > 0:13:28The woman here on the right.
0:13:28 > 0:13:31To expand on that point, too autocratically give 0.7%
0:13:31 > 0:13:38of our GDP, and it's a target, there is no focus on
0:13:38 > 0:13:42where it's being spent.
0:13:42 > 0:13:44I'll come to that right now.
0:13:44 > 0:13:47Just hold it for a moment and stick on the point we were on before.
0:13:47 > 0:13:50You, in the third row.
0:13:50 > 0:13:52I want to ask Angela.
0:13:52 > 0:13:55You talk about how people are encouraged to work hard
0:13:55 > 0:13:57and save all their lives, yet there seems to be hypocrisy
0:13:57 > 0:13:59amongst the Labour Party.
0:13:59 > 0:14:02A bit like how you're against grammar schools and yet most
0:14:02 > 0:14:03of the Shadow Cabinet sends their children
0:14:03 > 0:14:05to selective or private schools.
0:14:05 > 0:14:07You just, whilst you may say, oh, you're going to take
0:14:07 > 0:14:09away everyone's savings, you instead would take it
0:14:09 > 0:14:12away in inheritance tax.
0:14:12 > 0:14:17Surely this is complete hypocrisy, you just want to soak the rich.
0:14:17 > 0:14:18Well, no, it's not hypocrisy.
0:14:18 > 0:14:20It's about choices, and we are saying this Government
0:14:20 > 0:14:22have made choices where they have slashed corporation tax, slashed
0:14:22 > 0:14:25the tax for those that are rich, and they are making pensioners
0:14:25 > 0:14:27pay for it.
0:14:27 > 0:14:30I went to a state school, and all my children
0:14:30 > 0:14:31go to a state school.
0:14:31 > 0:14:34I want the best for every single child, and that's why I don't
0:14:34 > 0:14:36believe that grammars are the right thing to do.
0:14:36 > 0:14:41I am basing it on the evidence rather than hypocrisy.
0:14:41 > 0:14:47APPLAUSE
0:14:47 > 0:14:49There are fundamental points here.
0:14:49 > 0:14:50We'll come to you.
0:14:50 > 0:14:51Yes?
0:14:51 > 0:14:54There is a fundamental point here and it isn't
0:14:54 > 0:14:55just about education.
0:14:55 > 0:14:57It's actually about Labour and the fact that they think
0:14:57 > 0:15:00they can literally spend their way when it comes to any big challenge
0:15:00 > 0:15:03or any big problem that society faces by taxing people.
0:15:03 > 0:15:07So you know if you own it they tax it, if you consume it they tax it,
0:15:07 > 0:15:15if it walks there's no doubt about it they tax it.
0:15:15 > 0:15:16It's not true.
0:15:16 > 0:15:18It is true.
0:15:18 > 0:15:19Are you ruling out national insurance contribution rises
0:15:19 > 0:15:22for Britain, are you going to rule that out in your manifesto?
0:15:22 > 0:15:23We did.
0:15:23 > 0:15:25Your party has no credibility.
0:15:25 > 0:15:26You don't answer the questions.
0:15:26 > 0:15:29There's nothing in the manifesto that says you will not increase
0:15:29 > 0:15:29national insurance contributions.
0:15:29 > 0:15:31That's what you wanted in the last Parliament.
0:15:31 > 0:15:33Are you going to do that?
0:15:33 > 0:15:35On June 8th it's about economic credibility and leadership.
0:15:35 > 0:15:36You won't answer the question.
0:15:36 > 0:15:37Seven years ago...
0:15:37 > 0:15:39Wait a moment.
0:15:39 > 0:15:40We can answer that one.
0:15:40 > 0:15:42There is a commitment...
0:15:42 > 0:15:43ALL SPEAK AT ONCE.
0:15:43 > 0:15:44Hang on a second.
0:15:44 > 0:15:46Hang on a second.
0:15:46 > 0:15:48You promised that you would get rid of the deficit.
0:15:48 > 0:15:49Angela.
0:15:51 > 0:15:51Angela.
0:15:53 > 0:15:56I'm sorry, there are five people on the panel,
0:15:56 > 0:15:59this is getting ridiculous, you cannot just shout
0:15:59 > 0:16:03at each other across me and leave out everybody else.
0:16:03 > 0:16:06Can I just say in this conversation, you are both talking about taxation
0:16:06 > 0:16:09but in a different way.
0:16:09 > 0:16:10You're talking about taxing people with dementia.
0:16:10 > 0:16:12No, I'm not.
0:16:12 > 0:16:14You, Sir in the centre.
0:16:14 > 0:16:17We know where the money is, we've got to go and get it.
0:16:17 > 0:16:19It's about where it's going to fall.
0:16:19 > 0:16:21You, there?
0:16:21 > 0:16:24Every time there's a cut mentioned or a saving needs to be made,
0:16:24 > 0:16:27Labour seem to be against it.
0:16:27 > 0:16:32Can Labour please tell us how we reduce ?1.7 trillion of debt?
0:16:32 > 0:16:34Yep, well we...
0:16:34 > 0:16:37APPLAUSE.
0:16:39 > 0:16:41Well, to be honest, that's a really fair point because under
0:16:41 > 0:16:43the Conservatives that's doubled.
0:16:43 > 0:16:45And they promised...
0:16:45 > 0:16:47APPLAUSE.
0:16:47 > 0:16:51And this is why I get really passionate about it
0:16:51 > 0:16:53because they promised that they would make sure
0:16:53 > 0:16:56the deficit was already gone by now, it's not true.
0:16:56 > 0:16:57What is your answer to him?
0:16:57 > 0:17:00My answer to you is that where we said we'd borrow
0:17:00 > 0:17:01is about capital investment, it's about borrowing
0:17:01 > 0:17:04and investing in our young people and our British lives.
0:17:04 > 0:17:08So instead of getting people off the peg from abroad to do
0:17:08 > 0:17:12the skills in our country, it's about making sure our young
0:17:12 > 0:17:14people have a national education service so they're invested
0:17:14 > 0:17:15in without the debt.
0:17:15 > 0:17:16That's what it's about.
0:17:16 > 0:17:20APPLAUSE.
0:17:20 > 0:17:22All right, don't overdo it.
0:17:22 > 0:17:24Vince Cable, how would you answer his point?
0:17:24 > 0:17:27How is the debt going to be paid off which has increased
0:17:27 > 0:17:28under the Conservatives?
0:17:28 > 0:17:31If we are going to have improved services while dealing with sensible
0:17:31 > 0:17:33public finance and public debt, as you rightly say, we've got
0:17:33 > 0:17:36to have an honest way of funding these things.
0:17:36 > 0:17:39That's why we've addressed the issue about the lack of funding for social
0:17:39 > 0:17:43care and health by saying, you know, we've all earned,
0:17:43 > 0:17:46we have got to pay a penny more in income tax.
0:17:46 > 0:17:49That doesn't solve the problem but it will substantially alleviate it.
0:17:49 > 0:17:52But saying that you can never cut anything and you have to have
0:17:52 > 0:17:55tax cuts the whole time is fundamentally dishonest.
0:17:55 > 0:17:58If we have good Public Services, we've got to pay for them.
0:17:58 > 0:18:00Not just a handful of billionaires, but we've all got to
0:18:00 > 0:18:03make a contribution.
0:18:03 > 0:18:08There was nothing in the Conservative manifesto today
0:18:08 > 0:18:10to explain how public finance is going to be raised.
0:18:10 > 0:18:12Where would you suggest we make our cuts?
0:18:12 > 0:18:14We have to make cuts somewhere, you would agree, where?
0:18:14 > 0:18:18Where should we cut?
0:18:18 > 0:18:21I was in the coalition for five years, I had
0:18:21 > 0:18:22to cut my department spending by 25%.
0:18:22 > 0:18:23Did you do that?
0:18:23 > 0:18:26I did it because we had to get the budget in order.
0:18:26 > 0:18:29So you would agree we have to cut services somewhere?
0:18:29 > 0:18:31We have to manage the public finances properly of course.
0:18:31 > 0:18:34But what is missing from this national debate at the moment,
0:18:34 > 0:18:36particularly from the Tory manifesto, is where are
0:18:36 > 0:18:38they going to raise taxes?
0:18:38 > 0:18:41We know that after the election when Theresa May gets
0:18:41 > 0:18:44in with a big majority, taxes are going to go up,
0:18:44 > 0:18:46probably in income tax, probably national insurance,
0:18:46 > 0:18:49white van man is going to have to pay more.
0:18:49 > 0:18:50There isn't a word about it in their manifesto.
0:18:52 > 0:18:54Priti Patel?
0:18:54 > 0:18:58Can I just do it this way round, would you like to state
0:18:58 > 0:19:01that there will be no increases in tax and no increases
0:19:01 > 0:19:03in national insurance?
0:19:03 > 0:19:06Are those words Mrs May would not allow you to speak?
0:19:06 > 0:19:09All decisions on tax and spend are set out, and rightly so,
0:19:09 > 0:19:12Vince will know this and other panelists will know this,
0:19:12 > 0:19:15in the rightful way which is through budgets
0:19:15 > 0:19:17and fiscal events.
0:19:17 > 0:19:21It's not for me as a panelist to talk about it.
0:19:21 > 0:19:24Maybe in your manifesto Angela where it's all about corporation tax
0:19:24 > 0:19:27solving the problems but this is about being credible
0:19:27 > 0:19:29on the economy.
0:19:29 > 0:19:32You are not credible.
0:19:32 > 0:19:35I think you will find we are, when it comes to financial
0:19:35 > 0:19:44stability, Labour have a ?58 billion black hole in their own
0:19:44 > 0:19:47from their manifesto.
0:19:47 > 0:19:55You, Sir over there?
0:19:55 > 0:20:00that we have been taking.
0:20:00 > 0:20:03I haven't had a chance to read the Tory manifesto because it
0:20:03 > 0:20:05only came out today,
0:20:05 > 0:20:08but the winter fuel allowance, how exactly are you going to implement
0:20:08 > 0:20:11who has it and who doesn't because other Governments have
0:20:11 > 0:20:18resived doing it because they said it was too complex?
0:20:18 > 0:20:20Very briefly.
0:20:20 > 0:20:21It's means tested.
0:20:21 > 0:20:24Currently there are 12.2 million who have the winter fuel allowance,
0:20:24 > 0:20:26the actual payment itself, at great cost, so it
0:20:26 > 0:20:27will be means tested.
0:20:27 > 0:20:29Just before we move away to another question, Charles Moore,
0:20:29 > 0:20:31you introduced yourself as Mrs Thatcher's biographer
0:20:31 > 0:20:34and I note that the Spectator magazine you write for today says
0:20:34 > 0:20:36that this is the most left-wing leader of the Tory
0:20:36 > 0:20:37party in 40 years.
0:20:37 > 0:20:40Are there things in this Tory manifesto and Theresa May's
0:20:40 > 0:20:42approach to politics which, in your mind, are completely
0:20:42 > 0:20:44different, a new direction for the Conservative Party?
0:20:44 > 0:20:45Or is that just...
0:20:45 > 0:20:48In one way not because I think Mrs May's very much expressing
0:20:48 > 0:20:50the idea of the nation's identity asserting itself in
0:20:50 > 0:20:51the way Mrs Thatcher was.
0:20:51 > 0:20:53That's what Brexit was all about.
0:20:53 > 0:20:55That's very much a Thatcher thing.
0:20:55 > 0:21:03And she's going for the lore middle class, what she calls
0:21:03 > 0:21:05And she's going for the lower middle class, what she calls
0:21:05 > 0:21:07the just about managing, rather than natural
0:21:07 > 0:21:08permanent Tory voters.
0:21:08 > 0:21:10That's very similar.
0:21:10 > 0:21:13There is a big difference and that's Mrs Thatcher was much more
0:21:13 > 0:21:16a preacher of liberty than Mrs May and she much more talked
0:21:16 > 0:21:19about opportunity and she much more said, trust the people to create
0:21:19 > 0:21:22wealth and the thing that worries me about the Tory manifesto is I think
0:21:22 > 0:21:26it doesn't look at the gifts of the people about how they can do
0:21:26 > 0:21:30things, about how a person can start up a business and how to create
0:21:30 > 0:21:34better opportunities so that they can, trusting
0:21:34 > 0:21:38the people to create the prosperity.
0:21:38 > 0:21:41There is an element of I think too much control in all of this.
0:21:41 > 0:21:43It does worry me.
0:21:43 > 0:21:49Particularly if we are Brexiting, we are left to our own devices.
0:21:49 > 0:21:51We have got to sort it out.
0:21:51 > 0:21:54And for that, we have got to have a lot of economic freedom.
0:21:54 > 0:21:56Last point from you, Sir, then another question.
0:21:56 > 0:21:58A question for Priti.
0:21:58 > 0:22:02If your economics are stable, why is it that you won't volunteer
0:22:02 > 0:22:05your manifesto to be judged against Labours,
0:22:05 > 0:22:11as has been requested?
0:22:11 > 0:22:13I don't think Labour's has been judged at all,
0:22:13 > 0:22:16other than to say there is a ?58 billion black hole...
0:22:16 > 0:22:18They've asked for it to be assessed against yours.
0:22:18 > 0:22:20All based on greater tax levels basically and more
0:22:20 > 0:22:22debt and more borrowing, but I think, you know,
0:22:22 > 0:22:26as I've said, the reality is, is that when it comes to spending
0:22:26 > 0:22:29decisions, they'll be forthcoming through the fiscal
0:22:29 > 0:22:30processes that are in place.
0:22:30 > 0:22:32I should also make the point in the manifesto, there
0:22:32 > 0:22:35are commitments that we have made on education for example,
0:22:35 > 0:22:38on housing, you know, finance is money that has been
0:22:38 > 0:22:40announced during the budget as well.
0:22:40 > 0:22:42Government's already factored in the spending that
0:22:42 > 0:22:44will go into those areas.
0:22:44 > 0:22:47Coming back to the point of social care as well,
0:22:47 > 0:22:50we have put in an additional ?2 billion into social care.
0:22:50 > 0:22:53Of course, on the point about the Winter Fuel Payments too,
0:22:53 > 0:22:57that is about making sure A it's means tested but so that the rest
0:22:57 > 0:23:00of that money goes into improving the quality of care such
0:23:00 > 0:23:03as what the gentleman mentioned.
0:23:03 > 0:23:10I come back to the point as well, why they don't want their manifesto
0:23:10 > 0:23:19costed is because there are huge subsidies that could be cut.
0:23:24 > 0:23:26Money is given to buy-to-let landlords overheating
0:23:26 > 0:23:27our housing market.
0:23:27 > 0:23:30There's going to be ?110 billion going into Trident nuclear weapons
0:23:30 > 0:23:31which we don't need to spend.
0:23:31 > 0:23:34There is another ?40 billion going into subsidising the private
0:23:34 > 0:23:36pension industry which goes into lining the pockets
0:23:36 > 0:23:37of those in the City.
0:23:37 > 0:23:40We can make cuts and you don't want your numbers scrutinised
0:23:40 > 0:23:42because you are subsidising the wrong people
0:23:42 > 0:23:43in the wrong places.
0:23:43 > 0:23:44APPLAUSE.
0:23:44 > 0:23:47We'll go on to another question.
0:23:47 > 0:23:50Just before we do, we are going to be in Belfast next week
0:23:50 > 0:23:52and we are in Barnet the week after that.
0:23:52 > 0:23:56I say that so if you want to come, the address is on the screen
0:23:56 > 0:23:57there and you can.
0:23:57 > 0:23:59I should also mention the two leaders specials,
0:23:59 > 0:24:02well four leaders in fact but two leaders in pairs.
0:24:02 > 0:24:05Theresa May and Jeremy Corbyn are going to be in York
0:24:05 > 0:24:08on Friday 2nd June.
0:24:08 > 0:24:11They're not appearing together, they're appearing
0:24:11 > 0:24:14one after the other.
0:24:14 > 0:24:16And then Nicola Sturgeon and Tim Farron on the 4th June
0:24:16 > 0:24:20in Edinburgh on a Sunday.
0:24:20 > 0:24:22So if you want to come, that's Belfast, Barnet, York, Edinburgh.
0:24:22 > 0:24:25Rich feasts.
0:24:25 > 0:24:28You can apply, I'll give the details again at the end.
0:24:28 > 0:24:32I think we'll go on to another question.
0:24:32 > 0:24:36I will come back to the issue, if I have time, about foreign aid,
0:24:36 > 0:24:39but let's take this question from Emily Petch, please?
0:24:39 > 0:24:41Is Jeremy Corbyn credible enough to lead Brexit negotiations?
0:24:41 > 0:24:46Yes!
0:24:51 > 0:24:55I won't take a show of hands, but we'll hear from our panel first.
0:24:55 > 0:24:57Vince Cable?
0:24:57 > 0:25:07Well, I think the simple answer is no.
0:25:07 > 0:25:10I'm not wanting to get into a sort of general view
0:25:10 > 0:25:12of Jeremy Corbyn's political history, but the simple truth
0:25:12 > 0:25:18of the matter is that on the particular issue of Brexit,
0:25:18 > 0:25:21he and Theresa May are in the same place, I mean they've both voted
0:25:21 > 0:25:24for what we call a hard Brexit or an extreme Brexit
0:25:24 > 0:25:28or a Ukip-type Brexit which isn't just leaving the European Union
0:25:28 > 0:25:31which the public had voted for, but also involved taking it out
0:25:31 > 0:25:33of the single market, involves taking it out
0:25:33 > 0:25:36of the customs union, which is fundamental
0:25:36 > 0:25:39to our manufacturing industries which will sever a lot of the very
0:25:39 > 0:25:41close scientific relationships we have, our university in Norwich
0:25:41 > 0:25:44here is a typical example of an institution that will be
0:25:44 > 0:25:45very badly damaged.
0:25:45 > 0:25:48So that his responsibility is just as much as the Prime Minister
0:25:48 > 0:25:52in taking the country in a very damaging and dangerous direction.
0:25:52 > 0:25:56I accept, and my party accepts, that the public have voted
0:25:56 > 0:25:59and the process is being started.
0:25:59 > 0:26:05But there is a fundamental question now about which type of Brexit
0:26:05 > 0:26:08we pursue and I'm afraid that Jeremy Corbyn has lost the plot
0:26:08 > 0:26:11here and lost the loyalty of a lot of his own people because he's
0:26:11 > 0:26:15taking us down the same direction as the Ukip-inspired
0:26:15 > 0:26:17Conservative Government.
0:26:17 > 0:26:18APPLAUSE.
0:26:18 > 0:26:22All right.
0:26:22 > 0:26:26The difference between him and Theresa May's negotiating
0:26:26 > 0:26:29position if either was in charge?
0:26:29 > 0:26:33Well, it's not clear what Jeremy Corbyn's
0:26:33 > 0:26:35negotiating position is, I mean beyond the same
0:26:35 > 0:26:37as the Government.
0:26:37 > 0:26:41The problem is we now have as a country is what happens next
0:26:41 > 0:26:42isn't really in our hands.
0:26:42 > 0:26:47The British Government's made its pitch, we are pursuing this
0:26:47 > 0:26:50hard extreme Brexit option, we've now got to wait
0:26:50 > 0:26:54for what the European Union countries offer us.
0:26:54 > 0:26:57They're going to struggle obviously to have a common position.
0:26:57 > 0:27:02There are 27 Governments and the European Parliament and it
0:27:02 > 0:27:05will probably come in the form of a take it or leave it offer.
0:27:05 > 0:27:08If the offer is a bad one, the question then will be,
0:27:08 > 0:27:10what do we do as a country.
0:27:10 > 0:27:14What my party is saying, quite distinctly from Labour
0:27:14 > 0:27:18or the Conservatives, is that the public have got to be
0:27:18 > 0:27:22given the choice of deciding whether we take what is on offer
0:27:22 > 0:27:26and that's the context of having another referendum and I don't think
0:27:26 > 0:27:27the Labour Party are in that space.
0:27:27 > 0:27:31Just while you're on that point, two things, do you accept now that
0:27:31 > 0:27:35a majority of people, even if they voted, even if those
0:27:35 > 0:27:38included voted Remain and now want Brexit and want the Government
0:27:38 > 0:27:39to get on with it.
0:27:39 > 0:27:42Secondly, it was you of course who said that a second vote would be
0:27:42 > 0:27:44seriously disrespectful.
0:27:44 > 0:27:45Yes, and I...
0:27:45 > 0:27:47Utterly counterproductive.
0:27:47 > 0:27:48Now you've changed your tune.
0:27:48 > 0:27:51I said that and I meant it at the time of the referendum.
0:27:51 > 0:27:53We had the referendum.
0:27:53 > 0:27:56To disrespect the majority would have been completely wrong.
0:27:56 > 0:27:59We now have a different question to answer which is,
0:27:59 > 0:28:02what happens at the destination?
0:28:02 > 0:28:04We voted to leave.
0:28:04 > 0:28:06Sorry, what were you saying would be counterproductive,
0:28:06 > 0:28:10the immediate oh dear, we didn't like that let's have
0:28:10 > 0:28:11another one next year?
0:28:11 > 0:28:16There was a lot of suspicion quite rightly that in European countries
0:28:16 > 0:28:18they had referendums, they lost and the government
0:28:18 > 0:28:19ran them again.
0:28:19 > 0:28:21And you thought that might happen?
0:28:21 > 0:28:23It could have happened.
0:28:23 > 0:28:27That Cameron would stay there and say let's do it again?
0:28:27 > 0:28:29If it happened it would have been wrong and that's
0:28:29 > 0:28:31what I was criticising.
0:28:31 > 0:28:33But we are now dealing with a fundamentally different
0:28:33 > 0:28:35question which is what happens when we get to the end
0:28:35 > 0:28:36of the process.
0:28:36 > 0:28:39In our view, the Government, backed in this case
0:28:39 > 0:28:41by Jeremy Corbyn, are leading us into a very deep swamp.
0:28:41 > 0:28:44OK, it's where we are going.
0:28:44 > 0:28:47We've got to have some line of retreat if this goes badly wrong.
0:28:47 > 0:28:50APPLAUSE.
0:28:50 > 0:28:52Angela Rayner?
0:28:52 > 0:28:56Well, I think Jeremy Corbyn's been really clear and the Labour Party
0:28:56 > 0:28:59position is clear, that we respect the votes of the referendum.
0:28:59 > 0:29:06Actually, first first principle is to put British jobs
0:29:06 > 0:29:09Actually, our first principle is to put British jobs
0:29:09 > 0:29:11and our economy first, whereas Theresa May's dog whistling
0:29:11 > 0:29:13the Ukip votes and saying we'll put immigration first,
0:29:13 > 0:29:16yet she's failed to meet her targets time and time again on immigration.
0:29:16 > 0:29:20Actually, we want a Brexit deal that will ensure that all parts of the UK
0:29:20 > 0:29:21can prosper and do well.
0:29:21 > 0:29:24Our manifesto sets out how we were going to grow Britain
0:29:24 > 0:29:27and ensure that our children have the skills for the future
0:29:27 > 0:29:30and not saddled with lots of debt and that we build more social
0:29:30 > 0:29:33housing and an NHS and a social care system that will give people
0:29:33 > 0:29:34dignity and respect.
0:29:34 > 0:29:36The Conservatives are not offering that.
0:29:36 > 0:29:39I read pages 28 and 29 of this under immigration for Labour,
0:29:39 > 0:29:48there is no mention of cutting immigration at all?
0:29:48 > 0:29:50We say that freedom of movement would end, and actually
0:29:50 > 0:29:52what we believe is by making sure that employers can't
0:29:52 > 0:29:55undercut wages in the UK, which the Conservatives have allowed
0:29:55 > 0:29:58to happen for over seven years in power, we believe that actually
0:29:58 > 0:30:00some of the practices that people are afraid of around
0:30:00 > 0:30:02immigration will end, because we will make sure that
0:30:02 > 0:30:04British skilled workers can get those jobs.
0:30:04 > 0:30:06We don't have those skills at the moment.
0:30:06 > 0:30:08They've cut bursaries for our NHS nurses.
0:30:08 > 0:30:08APPLAUSE
0:30:08 > 0:30:11Do you want, as a policy, to see fewer immigrants
0:30:11 > 0:30:12coming to the UK or not?
0:30:12 > 0:30:20We want to see a UK economy that puts our jobs and our workers first.
0:30:20 > 0:30:21That's what we've said.
0:30:21 > 0:30:23Immigration, and we've made no bones about that,
0:30:23 > 0:30:25immigration has been positive for the UK.
0:30:25 > 0:30:30APPLAUSE
0:30:30 > 0:30:32But in some areas, like in my constituency
0:30:32 > 0:30:34in Ashton-under-Lyne,
0:30:34 > 0:30:37they feel they've been disproportionately affected
0:30:37 > 0:30:41by immigration, because they've seen the housing pressures,
0:30:41 > 0:30:43they've seen public services being cut, and they've seen
0:30:43 > 0:30:44the undercutting of wages.
0:30:44 > 0:30:46And the Conservatives have allowed that to happen.
0:30:46 > 0:30:49They've broken their promises, and they're going to wreck our
0:30:49 > 0:30:53economy by dog whistling Ukip on this particular issue.
0:30:53 > 0:30:56Priti Patel.
0:30:56 > 0:30:59Well, the question was about leadership and whether or not
0:30:59 > 0:31:03Jeremy Corbyn is credible as a leader to go in and get
0:31:03 > 0:31:06the best deal for Britain when it comes to our Brexit
0:31:06 > 0:31:08discussions and negotiations.
0:31:08 > 0:31:09I think the obvious answer is no.
0:31:09 > 0:31:12Can any of us seriously picture and see Jeremy Corbyn sitting down
0:31:12 > 0:31:15with presidents and prime ministers and chancellors across
0:31:15 > 0:31:17Europe to get a deal?
0:31:17 > 0:31:21Yes!
0:31:21 > 0:31:25And the reason why the answer is no is because we are going to face
0:31:25 > 0:31:27a challenging time over the next five years, and there's only one
0:31:27 > 0:31:30leader, Theresa May, as Prime Minister, who's been able
0:31:30 > 0:31:34to recognise that and face up to the fact that...
0:31:34 > 0:31:35Where's the 350 million?
0:31:35 > 0:31:40APPLAUSE
0:31:40 > 0:31:41Hang on a second.
0:31:41 > 0:31:44We need to get the best deal for our country
0:31:44 > 0:31:46in those negotiations, which means that we need a strong
0:31:46 > 0:31:48leader, someone that's going to stand up for Britain,
0:31:48 > 0:31:50someone who will stand up for our national interests
0:31:50 > 0:31:53and someone will get a good deal for our country, and
0:31:53 > 0:31:54that is Theresa May.
0:31:54 > 0:31:55And just another point.
0:31:55 > 0:31:58On the point about immigration as well, let's be clear about why
0:31:58 > 0:32:02we have had so many issues over the years on immigration.
0:32:02 > 0:32:05Because it was a Labour Party in government that allowed a policy
0:32:05 > 0:32:08of uncontrolled immigration, and our objective, throughout Brexit
0:32:08 > 0:32:12negotiation, will be to take back control of our immigration,
0:32:12 > 0:32:15to control our immigration policy...
0:32:15 > 0:32:19Well, we're going to do this by leaving the European Union.
0:32:19 > 0:32:20You've failed.
0:32:20 > 0:32:22Theresa May was the Home Secretary for seven years, and she's
0:32:22 > 0:32:26failed every single target she's set.
0:32:26 > 0:32:29APPLAUSE
0:32:29 > 0:32:33Presumably, Angela, you approve of her failure.
0:32:33 > 0:32:35I approve...
0:32:35 > 0:32:37Because you don't want to control immigration.
0:32:37 > 0:32:40I believe that setting targets is the wrong way to go
0:32:40 > 0:32:41about immigration in this country.
0:32:41 > 0:32:44Immigrants come to this country and they work.
0:32:44 > 0:32:46They work and they prop up our National Health Service.
0:32:46 > 0:32:48You're saying the targets are irrelevant anyway.
0:32:48 > 0:32:49The target is not the issue.
0:32:49 > 0:32:52The issue is about people feeling like they've been left behind,
0:32:52 > 0:32:54that their kids are not getting a future, because they're
0:32:54 > 0:32:56going overseas to get the skilled workers instead
0:32:56 > 0:32:59of giving our children those chances.
0:32:59 > 0:33:03Let's hear from some members of our audience.
0:33:03 > 0:33:10You, sir, over there.
0:33:10 > 0:33:13To answer the question, is Jeremy Corbyn fit to lead
0:33:13 > 0:33:15the Brexit negotiations, I think if the Government truly
0:33:15 > 0:33:17wants to unite the country and represent the views of everyone,
0:33:17 > 0:33:19then surely more than one political party leader should
0:33:19 > 0:33:20be at the negotiation.
0:33:20 > 0:33:22You can't just have a Conservative-led negotiation.
0:33:22 > 0:33:25You're going to have more than half the country disagreeing with it.
0:33:25 > 0:33:27You need to have representation from every party to truly
0:33:27 > 0:33:29get a unified Britain.
0:33:29 > 0:33:30And the woman in orange.
0:33:30 > 0:33:31Thank you.
0:33:31 > 0:33:33The panel seems to be very concerned with immigration,
0:33:33 > 0:33:35and everyone's opinion on it.
0:33:35 > 0:33:37This county would collapse without, not necessarily skilled workers,
0:33:37 > 0:33:44but workers of all sorts that come in from the East European bloc.
0:33:44 > 0:33:50APPLAUSE
0:33:50 > 0:33:52The man behind you.
0:33:52 > 0:33:55Can we not forget that Jeremy Corbyn won two leadership elections?
0:33:55 > 0:33:59Theresa May won by default.
0:33:59 > 0:34:02APPLAUSE
0:34:02 > 0:34:06So Jeremy Corbyn is in a more stronger, more stable
0:34:06 > 0:34:08position than Theresa May.
0:34:08 > 0:34:11Theresa May won by default, so why should she be in charge
0:34:11 > 0:34:12of our country negotiating Brexit?
0:34:12 > 0:34:14She's got an election coming up.
0:34:14 > 0:34:16Presumably we will be able to judge her standing
0:34:16 > 0:34:17in the country by that.
0:34:17 > 0:34:19Charles Moore.
0:34:19 > 0:34:23In the foreword to the manifestos, the leaders both write something.
0:34:23 > 0:34:28And in the first paragraph, Theresa May says,
0:34:28 > 0:34:31"Brexit will define us".
0:34:31 > 0:34:34And Jeremy Corbyn, his first paragraph says, "A big part
0:34:34 > 0:34:37"of being the leader of a political party is that you meet people
0:34:37 > 0:34:40"across the country and hear a wide range of views and ideas
0:34:40 > 0:34:41"about the future".
0:34:41 > 0:34:44Now, it seems to me that one of those sentences is focusing
0:34:44 > 0:34:47on what it is to be a leader, and the other is not.
0:34:47 > 0:34:50And I'm afraid it is very clear.
0:34:50 > 0:34:54I actually covered the 1983 election and I went
0:34:54 > 0:34:56round with Margaret Thatcher and with Michael Foot,
0:34:56 > 0:34:59the then Labour leader, and I saw how they behaved.
0:34:59 > 0:35:02And Mr Foot was a dear, kindly man, and I think that's
0:35:02 > 0:35:03true of Jeremy Corbyn.
0:35:03 > 0:35:06But it was absolutely blatantly obvious that he couldn't run
0:35:06 > 0:35:08the country, completely and utterly so.
0:35:08 > 0:35:11And it was blatantly obvious that whether you liked
0:35:11 > 0:35:13Mrs Thatcher or not, she could.
0:35:13 > 0:35:14And the voters could completely see that.
0:35:14 > 0:35:19The question put the point there about Jeremy Corbyn being elected.
0:35:19 > 0:35:21There is such a fantastic difference between being chosen by your party
0:35:21 > 0:35:26and being chosen by the country.
0:35:26 > 0:35:28And Michael Foot went to enormous rallies where
0:35:28 > 0:35:30he was cheered to the echo.
0:35:30 > 0:35:33I remember in Plymouth thousands of people cheering and yelling,
0:35:33 > 0:35:35and he made a brilliant speech.
0:35:35 > 0:35:36No use.
0:35:36 > 0:35:37Makes no difference.
0:35:37 > 0:35:40What they have to persuade is the people who are not persuaded.
0:35:40 > 0:35:43And Mr Corbyn is an absolute classic preacher to the converted.
0:35:43 > 0:35:47He can't reach out beyond that, and he won't.
0:35:47 > 0:35:49And he'll lose.
0:35:49 > 0:35:56APPLAUSE
0:35:56 > 0:35:58To come back to the question again, Emily,
0:35:58 > 0:36:01this is what the general election is about, in part, at least.
0:36:01 > 0:36:04It is about who has the mandate to go forwards and take
0:36:04 > 0:36:06forward these negotiations.
0:36:06 > 0:36:08With regard to your specific question about Jeremy Corbyn,
0:36:08 > 0:36:10I admire him in many ways.
0:36:10 > 0:36:12I think he's putting forward a bold manifesto,
0:36:12 > 0:36:16but on his judgment on Article 50, it was not good.
0:36:16 > 0:36:20If you cast your mind back to 24 hours, 48 hours
0:36:20 > 0:36:23after the referendum, he urged Article 50 to be
0:36:23 > 0:36:24invoked immediately.
0:36:24 > 0:36:27That was an error of judgment.
0:36:27 > 0:36:29He has given the Conservatives a blank cheque.
0:36:29 > 0:36:30Not just a blank cheque.
0:36:30 > 0:36:34He has driven them to the bank and got them to cash it in,
0:36:34 > 0:36:35over the Brexit negotiations.
0:36:35 > 0:36:37But what's the alternative?
0:36:37 > 0:36:41Theresa May, who's made mistake after mistake after mistake already
0:36:41 > 0:36:43in the Brexit process.
0:36:43 > 0:36:46Over Gibraltar, over rattling the sabres around intelligence
0:36:46 > 0:36:50when she wrote the letter invoking Article 50.
0:36:50 > 0:36:52She's had to be dragged kicking and screaming,
0:36:52 > 0:36:54after people told her they wanted to take back control
0:36:54 > 0:36:57to the referendum, just to let Parliament have a say in it,
0:36:57 > 0:37:00and eventually conceded a vote in Parliament at the end.
0:37:00 > 0:37:05But this is a Prime Minister who says one thing and does another.
0:37:05 > 0:37:08And that's becoming abundantly clear.
0:37:08 > 0:37:10We saw it at the general election.
0:37:10 > 0:37:12No, there was going to be no general election.
0:37:12 > 0:37:14A few days later, a general election is called.
0:37:14 > 0:37:17She swears that she is going to stand up for the marginalised
0:37:17 > 0:37:18and then freezes welfare benefits.
0:37:18 > 0:37:20She condemns the evils of child trafficking...
0:37:20 > 0:37:23Where's she going to go wrong in negotiating Brexit?
0:37:23 > 0:37:26I think it's already clear that she's made an error of judgment.
0:37:26 > 0:37:29I think she isn't keeping our options open.
0:37:29 > 0:37:32I agree with Vince on this about a ratification referendum.
0:37:32 > 0:37:35If she's conceded the principle that Parliament should
0:37:35 > 0:37:38have a vote on the final terms, then why not trust the British
0:37:38 > 0:37:40people to have that say as well?
0:37:40 > 0:37:43APPLAUSE
0:37:43 > 0:37:46Emily, what's your view about Jeremy Corbyn and Brexit?
0:37:46 > 0:37:50I think that Corbyn is an incredibly passionate leader.
0:37:50 > 0:37:53You know what you're going to get with Corbyn, whereas May,
0:37:53 > 0:37:58there's always a bit of ambiguity, I guess.
0:37:58 > 0:38:00I think personally, I'll be voting for Corbyn
0:38:00 > 0:38:02because I know what he stands for.
0:38:02 > 0:38:03He's passionate about his beliefs.
0:38:03 > 0:38:08I feel like, as a student, he cares more about kind
0:38:08 > 0:38:10of the marginalised in this country.
0:38:10 > 0:38:14So when you say, is he credible enough, your answer would be yes?
0:38:14 > 0:38:14Yes.
0:38:14 > 0:38:16Definitely.
0:38:16 > 0:38:22APPLAUSE
0:38:22 > 0:38:24So it was a kind of rhetorical question.
0:38:24 > 0:38:28I just wanted to know what everybody else thought.
0:38:28 > 0:38:30Lets go on to another...
0:38:30 > 0:38:33I said we would come back to the issue that was
0:38:33 > 0:38:34raised a moment ago.
0:38:34 > 0:38:35The question from Gordon Jones.
0:38:35 > 0:38:37I think we can take that.
0:38:37 > 0:38:39Just take the key issue, Gordon, can you?
0:38:39 > 0:38:42Thank you, David.
0:38:42 > 0:38:46The thing what gets me about the Conservative Party
0:38:46 > 0:38:50at the moment, they carried on from Cameron's 0.7% of GDP.
0:38:50 > 0:38:55And why?
0:38:55 > 0:38:56You're talking about foreign aid.
0:38:56 > 0:39:00Yes, sorry, foreign aid.
0:39:00 > 0:39:02What was your actual question, why are they still doing that?
0:39:02 > 0:39:04Why are they still carrying on?
0:39:04 > 0:39:06When you've got a shortage of policemen, firemen,
0:39:06 > 0:39:10care workers, everybody else.
0:39:10 > 0:39:14Everybody suffers, while we keep giving this large amount.
0:39:14 > 0:39:18And we've given this large amount away for silly things.
0:39:18 > 0:39:24We even give Saint Helena Island 285 million to build an airport
0:39:24 > 0:39:28which no airlines can take off from.
0:39:28 > 0:39:33Charles Moore.
0:39:33 > 0:39:37Yes, I basically agree with what was just said.
0:39:37 > 0:39:40First of all, I think it is very wrong to commit automatically
0:39:40 > 0:39:43a percentage of the country's money.
0:39:43 > 0:39:44You shouldn't have a law.
0:39:44 > 0:39:47All spending should vary depending on need.
0:39:47 > 0:39:51You shouldn't have a law that says it's got to be X percent.
0:39:51 > 0:39:54Secondly, it is true, and it's partly because they say
0:39:54 > 0:39:57it's got to be that much, that they don't how to spend it.
0:39:57 > 0:40:02So it's all there and they don't know how to spend it.
0:40:02 > 0:40:04Thirdly, they are actually not allowed to spend it on things that
0:40:04 > 0:40:06are of benefit to Britain.
0:40:06 > 0:40:07It's actually against the rules.
0:40:07 > 0:40:11And so it is wasted.
0:40:11 > 0:40:13One of the key things about running a country is priorities.
0:40:13 > 0:40:15I've often seen British aid workers in foreign places.
0:40:15 > 0:40:19Many of them are excellent people, government people, I mean.
0:40:19 > 0:40:22But the way the system works, I've seen it in Afghanistan,
0:40:22 > 0:40:26particularly when it's a dangerous situation, is that all the money
0:40:26 > 0:40:29they hand over from British taxpayers goes to the government.
0:40:29 > 0:40:33And in these bad places, it's squandered by the government.
0:40:33 > 0:40:35The people whose fingers are nearest to the money, keep it.
0:40:35 > 0:40:38That's how it works in those places.
0:40:38 > 0:40:41And when we actually have priorities, I can't understand why
0:40:41 > 0:40:43the government is stuck on this one.
0:40:43 > 0:40:44It's the same with...
0:40:44 > 0:40:47They go on about energy prices, quite rightly, they are too high.
0:40:47 > 0:40:49But we have these unbelievably high renewable demands,
0:40:49 > 0:40:54which is the reason energy prices are so high, because we spend more
0:40:54 > 0:40:59than 7 billion out of the levy making people pay that
0:40:59 > 0:41:02for alleged climate change.
0:41:02 > 0:41:05Alleged climate change?
0:41:05 > 0:41:07Alleged climate change!
0:41:07 > 0:41:10You're a climate change sceptic, or an outright denier?
0:41:10 > 0:41:11I'm a sceptic.
0:41:11 > 0:41:12A sceptic, OK.
0:41:12 > 0:41:14And what evidence is it that you don't believe?
0:41:14 > 0:41:18I'm very happy to have the climate change debate, but shall I...
0:41:18 > 0:41:21Finish your point, and then I'll bring Jonathan in.
0:41:21 > 0:41:24If you're trying to help the people who are just about managing,
0:41:24 > 0:41:27which I very much support Mrs May in doing, really work that out,
0:41:27 > 0:41:29really think about that.
0:41:29 > 0:41:32And if that's so, you would not be putting up energy bills
0:41:32 > 0:41:35with renewable levies, and you would not be spending
0:41:35 > 0:41:37all this money on foreign aid.
0:41:37 > 0:41:41APPLAUSE
0:41:41 > 0:41:44Jonathan Bartley.
0:41:44 > 0:41:47Another subsidy we could cut is the ?30 billion Hinckley subsidy,
0:41:47 > 0:41:49which is ridiculous.
0:41:49 > 0:41:51Are you in favour of 13 billion foreign aid?
0:41:51 > 0:41:54I am absolutely in favour of 13 billion foreign aid,
0:41:54 > 0:41:58and we would put it up, unequivocally, and proud of it.
0:41:58 > 0:42:02I am proud of it, and we would put it up to 1% of GDP.
0:42:02 > 0:42:05And let me tell you, I'm ashamed of our country,
0:42:05 > 0:42:07when we spend 40% of our gross domestic product and public
0:42:07 > 0:42:09expenditure on ourselves, the fifth biggest economy
0:42:09 > 0:42:13in the world, and we can just about scrape together 0.7% of GDP
0:42:13 > 0:42:17on the entire rest of the world.
0:42:17 > 0:42:21When there is a famine in East Africa with 22 million
0:42:21 > 0:42:25people facing starvation, and we can't muster up...
0:42:25 > 0:42:28Where's the pride in our country, where's the passion?
0:42:28 > 0:42:31We should be leading the world in doing the right thing.
0:42:31 > 0:42:33I'm ashamed that we are even having this conversation.
0:42:33 > 0:42:38APPLAUSE
0:42:38 > 0:42:42You can shout about it if you know where the money's doing good.
0:42:42 > 0:42:48They give a health ministry in Kenya 106 million to provide
0:42:48 > 0:42:51for the next eight years.
0:42:51 > 0:42:54Gordon, I'm absolutely on the same page with you on that.
0:42:54 > 0:42:56I believe we must know where the money is going.
0:42:56 > 0:42:58We need accountability and there must be transparency,
0:42:58 > 0:43:01but that is not an excuse for cutting the aid budget.
0:43:01 > 0:43:05APPLAUSE
0:43:05 > 0:43:07Let me come back to the panel.
0:43:07 > 0:43:08Vince Cable.
0:43:08 > 0:43:11There are two honest and credible ways of dealing with the aid issue.
0:43:11 > 0:43:14One is to have the target and meet it.
0:43:14 > 0:43:16And I have to say, I have many disagreements with David Cameron,
0:43:16 > 0:43:21but he deserves a lot of credit for having done this.
0:43:21 > 0:43:24He got a lot of flak from his own people and from the right-wing
0:43:24 > 0:43:27press but he stuck at it and he deserves credit.
0:43:27 > 0:43:30It seems that the other honest way of dealing with it is the way that
0:43:30 > 0:43:33you and several other people of the audience have
0:43:33 > 0:43:35said quite outright, we don't want foreign aid,
0:43:35 > 0:43:36we want to spend it here.
0:43:36 > 0:43:38I don't agree with that but at least it's honest.
0:43:38 > 0:43:41But what appears in the Conservative manifesto today is something
0:43:41 > 0:43:44that is grossly dishonest.
0:43:44 > 0:43:47What they are saying is, let's keep the aid target but fiddle
0:43:47 > 0:43:52it and redefine it so that it isn't really aid at all.
0:43:52 > 0:43:54And that, I'm afraid, is going to bring the whole thing
0:43:54 > 0:43:55into gross disrepute.
0:43:55 > 0:43:57What do you mean by that?
0:43:57 > 0:44:00Well, they want to change the definition of aid so that it
0:44:00 > 0:44:03doesn't actually aid the developing countries in a way that
0:44:03 > 0:44:05everybody recognises, but is hiding other forms
0:44:05 > 0:44:09of British public spending.
0:44:09 > 0:44:11And that is not reputable.
0:44:11 > 0:44:13That is not a sensible way of doing it.
0:44:13 > 0:44:15If we have an aid programme and we are committed to it,
0:44:15 > 0:44:17we should deliver it.
0:44:17 > 0:44:20If we want out of it, we should do what other people
0:44:20 > 0:44:21are saying and cut it.
0:44:21 > 0:44:23But trying to hide stuff is not...
0:44:23 > 0:44:25We are not trying to hide stuff, Vince.
0:44:25 > 0:44:26Why are you trying to redefine it?
0:44:26 > 0:44:32You wanted to abolish the Department, didn't you?
0:44:32 > 0:44:35We are proud, as a Government, of our 0.7% commitment and it helps
0:44:35 > 0:44:40us stand tall in the world.
0:44:40 > 0:44:43We are the fifth largest economy in the world and I think actually
0:44:43 > 0:44:48when we look at the good that we do, through international development,
0:44:48 > 0:44:51no-one can doubt we are saving lives and changing lives
0:44:51 > 0:44:53in unprecedented ways.
0:44:53 > 0:44:55I've had the privilege of going to some of the most
0:44:55 > 0:44:57harrowing places in the world.
0:44:57 > 0:45:00Jonathan mentioned the East Africaen famine, I've been to Sudan
0:45:00 > 0:45:03and Somalia where people are dying, so ?20 of UK aid would provide
0:45:03 > 0:45:06food, water and shelter for a family for over a month.
0:45:06 > 0:45:09That helps us stand tall in the world and we should all be
0:45:09 > 0:45:11proud of that in terms of how we're spending money.
0:45:11 > 0:45:14But, there is more that we can do in terms of the how
0:45:14 > 0:45:20we spend that money, where it goes and following
0:45:20 > 0:45:23the money to ensure that it goes to the world's poorest to get
0:45:23 > 0:45:25the development outcomes that we need to see.
0:45:25 > 0:45:28We have seen plenty of cases over the years of aid that's not gone
0:45:28 > 0:45:31to the right causes, the right people or even driven
0:45:31 > 0:45:34outcomes and developmental outcomes or alleviated poverty.
0:45:34 > 0:45:37That is my job, through not just our manifesto but through the nine
0:45:37 > 0:45:41months I've spent in DFID so far in tracking down, following
0:45:41 > 0:45:45the money and ensuring we spend that money so it's in our national
0:45:45 > 0:45:48interest, whether it's on diseases or famine to keep us safe here.
0:45:48 > 0:45:52Just in the manifesto, we do say we'd work with like-minded
0:45:52 > 0:45:55countries where we can reform the OECD, the rules,
0:45:55 > 0:45:59for this very purpose, because we can't spend money,
0:45:59 > 0:46:05for example, on getting military support in to deliver aid
0:46:05 > 0:46:06in humanitarian situations.
0:46:06 > 0:46:09I've seen those situations, I've seen aid workers or know of aid
0:46:09 > 0:46:13workers who've been killed delivering food relief in some very,
0:46:13 > 0:46:16very unstable parts of the world.
0:46:16 > 0:46:18We believe we can change that situation by yes,
0:46:18 > 0:46:22spending more with the MoD to get equipment in, but also
0:46:22 > 0:46:25to get life-saving aid in as well into some very,
0:46:25 > 0:46:27very difficult parts of the world.
0:46:27 > 0:46:31I think actually Britain post-Brexit, this helps us to not
0:46:31 > 0:46:32only stand tall in the world...
0:46:32 > 0:46:33You've said that.
0:46:33 > 0:46:35But to give us influence in the world as well.
0:46:35 > 0:46:38Gordon complains about the shortage of nurses and doctors
0:46:38 > 0:46:40and the rest of it.
0:46:40 > 0:46:43You are spending ?13 billion or so, a bit more on foreign aid,
0:46:43 > 0:46:49the pledges is to increase the NHS by ?8 billion over
0:46:49 > 0:46:51the next Parliament, yes?
0:46:51 > 0:46:54Yes.
0:46:54 > 0:46:56That is about ?30 million a week.
0:46:56 > 0:46:58You told us there would be ?350 million a week?
0:46:58 > 0:47:01Well, you have to...
0:47:01 > 0:47:04APPLAUSE.
0:47:04 > 0:47:06Didn't you?
0:47:06 > 0:47:07No, I think...
0:47:07 > 0:47:13You've only managed to get...
0:47:13 > 0:47:15I mean you've only managed to gets ?30 million,
0:47:15 > 0:47:18so does that raise a questionabout whether foreign aid is justified?
0:47:18 > 0:47:19I've already made the case...
0:47:19 > 0:47:23What happened to your promise that we get ?350 million?
0:47:23 > 0:47:25We've got to leave the European Union first
0:47:25 > 0:47:27of all to take back control of that money.
0:47:27 > 0:47:30You have seen in the manifesto what we'll do with that
0:47:30 > 0:47:31money today as well.
0:47:31 > 0:47:34We'll put that into a fund where that money will go back
0:47:34 > 0:47:37to the UK and so that we can spend that money in the UK
0:47:37 > 0:47:40in a way in which, you know, not only secures jobs in this
0:47:40 > 0:47:42country but leads to greater investment.
0:47:42 > 0:47:45So will the NHS still get the ?350 million a week that
0:47:45 > 0:47:47you stood in front of brandishing...
0:47:47 > 0:47:50We have committed to ?8 billion on torch of...
0:47:50 > 0:47:57I know you have, but where's the ?350?
0:47:57 > 0:48:00On top of the ?11 billion that's gone into mental health as well.
0:48:00 > 0:48:03In terms of funding to the NHS we are absolutely committed not just
0:48:03 > 0:48:05to securing funding but investing in the future as well.
0:48:05 > 0:48:07So we have to forget 350 story.
0:48:07 > 0:48:08Angela Rayner?
0:48:08 > 0:48:11You are plugging the holes of the money you have siphoned out
0:48:11 > 0:48:13of our Public Services at best.
0:48:13 > 0:48:14Not true.
0:48:14 > 0:48:18APPLAUSE.
0:48:18 > 0:48:21But, to be fair, I will agree with Priti on the issue around
0:48:21 > 0:48:25the 0.7%, she's absolutely right and she's changed her tune
0:48:25 > 0:48:27because she did want to get rid of her department,
0:48:27 > 0:48:29as David did say.
0:48:29 > 0:48:31Gordon has a point about where we spend that money.
0:48:31 > 0:48:36What Priti was saying earlier, for example we are spending aid
0:48:36 > 0:48:40to Yemen, yet we are selling arms to Saudi Arabia who're causing
0:48:40 > 0:48:44the crisis in Yemen, so we need to look at that.
0:48:44 > 0:48:53APPLAUSE.
0:49:07 > 0:49:09I'll take a point from you in the third row?
0:49:09 > 0:49:11Quickly if you would?
0:49:11 > 0:49:14The panelists say it's about investing in the future,
0:49:14 > 0:49:16why then Angela would you put VAT on private school fees
0:49:16 > 0:49:19which would deny people like me the education that my family has
0:49:19 > 0:49:22worked hard to put me through and overburdened the state sector?
0:49:22 > 0:49:25That is not investing in the future, that is just soaking the rich
0:49:25 > 0:49:27and denying hard working people what their families
0:49:27 > 0:49:28want to give them.
0:49:28 > 0:49:29OK, we'll go to that question.
0:49:29 > 0:49:30Joanne Reid, let's have it?
0:49:30 > 0:49:32Should tuition fees be free for all students?
0:49:32 > 0:49:34Should tuition fees be free for all students
0:49:34 > 0:49:35which is Labour policy.
0:49:35 > 0:49:37Angela Rayner?
0:49:37 > 0:49:38Yes, I think they should be.
0:49:38 > 0:49:40Because students pay a massive debt towards it
0:49:40 > 0:49:42by working in our industry, working in our industries
0:49:42 > 0:49:44once they are skilled and being our doctors,
0:49:44 > 0:49:46scientists of the future, and our young people are leaving
0:49:46 > 0:49:47education with ?44,000 of debt.
0:49:47 > 0:49:50That's astronomical.
0:49:50 > 0:49:51We'll invest in them.
0:49:51 > 0:49:53APPLAUSE.
0:49:53 > 0:49:54What was your point?
0:49:54 > 0:49:57But if young people are the future of Britain post-Brexit,
0:49:57 > 0:49:59your VAT would force people out of private schools, the state
0:49:59 > 0:50:02schools can't cope with it and it would actually also deny
0:50:02 > 0:50:04the brightest and the best the bursaries...
0:50:04 > 0:50:06AUDIENCE BOO.
0:50:06 > 0:50:09It would deny the brightest and the best because there'll be
0:50:09 > 0:50:11less money going in, they couldn't get the education
0:50:11 > 0:50:13they deserve and it would make the education
0:50:13 > 0:50:14in the state sector worse.
0:50:14 > 0:50:18Can I just say that I don't think it will.
0:50:18 > 0:50:22I think the bursary, the VAT levy on schools
0:50:22 > 0:50:24is about schools paying the right amount of VAT which they currently
0:50:24 > 0:50:27don't have to pay.
0:50:27 > 0:50:28It's a state subsidy to private schools.
0:50:28 > 0:50:32When you've got choices to make, I believe that putting
0:50:32 > 0:50:34that money into the 95%, rather than the 5%
0:50:34 > 0:50:36is the right option.
0:50:36 > 0:50:41APPLAUSE.
0:50:41 > 0:50:43Priti Patel?
0:50:43 > 0:50:47Well, I think the perennial question here is, you know,
0:50:47 > 0:50:50with Labour again, how they're going to pay for this,
0:50:50 > 0:50:58because the reality is, when it comes to tuition fees,
0:50:58 > 0:51:00making it free for everyone, it is simply not sustainable,
0:51:00 > 0:51:02it's not financially credible at all.
0:51:02 > 0:51:04Actually, you would be supporting children from pretty well off
0:51:04 > 0:51:07backgrounds to go to university and what we are seeing right now
0:51:07 > 0:51:10through the tuition fees policy is actually it's giving the support
0:51:10 > 0:51:13to many of those that could not get access to university education,
0:51:13 > 0:51:16those from disadvantaged backgrounds and those are the ones we should be
0:51:16 > 0:51:18targeting and supporting to get into university.
0:51:18 > 0:51:21APPLAUSE.
0:51:21 > 0:51:24But that number's gone down.
0:51:24 > 0:51:26The woman in blue on the gangway?
0:51:26 > 0:51:29I went to university and I ended up with over ?30,000 worth of debt
0:51:29 > 0:51:32and I'm not in a job which I graduated for or worked hard
0:51:32 > 0:51:35towards because a lot of jobs when you leave universities
0:51:35 > 0:51:38being entry levels, you don't get paid anything or just
0:51:38 > 0:51:39get your travel costs.
0:51:39 > 0:51:42So I've ended up in a job that I didn't work hard towards and I've
0:51:42 > 0:51:47been there for six years because I can't find anything that
0:51:47 > 0:51:49I've graduated and worked towards.
0:51:49 > 0:51:50OK.
0:51:50 > 0:51:54Vince Cable, of course, the Liberal Democrats famously
0:51:54 > 0:51:56didn't want tuition fees and then We didn't.
0:51:56 > 0:51:58Do you approve of Labour's plan to abolish them again
0:51:58 > 0:52:00or are they now inevitable?
0:52:00 > 0:52:03In an idealised fantasy world where money grew on trees,
0:52:03 > 0:52:08it should of course be free.
0:52:08 > 0:52:10All three political parties, including mine, have made complete
0:52:10 > 0:52:13fools of themselves in the past by promising what they
0:52:13 > 0:52:15couldn't deliver.
0:52:15 > 0:52:20When the Labour Government came in, they promised never to introduce
0:52:20 > 0:52:24tuition fees and did and promised not to increase them and did
0:52:24 > 0:52:26because they were being sensible and realistic and Gordon Brown
0:52:26 > 0:52:30and Tony Blair could see that universities were going bust,
0:52:30 > 0:52:33they couldn't accommodate the students and provide
0:52:33 > 0:52:35good quality education so that's what they did.
0:52:35 > 0:52:38When we came into the coalition, we promised not to increase tuition
0:52:38 > 0:52:40fees, it was obviously undeliverable, we had
0:52:40 > 0:52:44to do it, we paid a big political price for it.
0:52:44 > 0:52:47But the question I had to face and I was given the hospital
0:52:47 > 0:52:49pass of this policy, was what do you do?
0:52:49 > 0:52:52You've got 40% of young people going to university,
0:52:52 > 0:52:55we want to maintain world class standards, how do you pay for it?
0:52:55 > 0:53:00You can ask the rest of the public to pay for it in tax and remember
0:53:00 > 0:53:03that about 80% of adults never went to university so why
0:53:03 > 0:53:05should they pay?
0:53:05 > 0:53:10You can do what they do in Scotland, which is they pretend it's free
0:53:10 > 0:53:12but then they raid the budget of schools and further education
0:53:12 > 0:53:15colleges to pay for it.
0:53:15 > 0:53:20Or you can do what we now do, which is to have a kind of graduate
0:53:20 > 0:53:25tax, that's basically what it is, people who benefit from higher
0:53:25 > 0:53:28education if they get a decent income later in life,
0:53:28 > 0:53:30they pay progressively according to their income.
0:53:30 > 0:53:33It's not ideal, I can understand all the anxieties people
0:53:33 > 0:53:36have about the system, but what is the alternative,
0:53:36 > 0:53:38how do you pay for it otherwise?
0:53:38 > 0:53:42This is basic reality.
0:53:42 > 0:53:43APPLAUSE.
0:53:43 > 0:53:44You?
0:53:44 > 0:53:48Hopefully this year I'm going to university and I have
0:53:48 > 0:53:51friends in my cohort who've not even started the process
0:53:51 > 0:53:54because they know how much it will cost and they know
0:53:54 > 0:53:59that they can't afford it, so tuition fees do single out and it
0:53:59 > 0:54:02puts a lot of people off.
0:54:02 > 0:54:06Even though it was defined as a graduate tax, in other
0:54:06 > 0:54:08words you only pay it when you start earning?
0:54:08 > 0:54:13Yes, because ?21,000 is the point you then start paying,
0:54:13 > 0:54:16if you earn over ?21,000, you then have to pay.
0:54:16 > 0:54:20A lot of people will earn over ?21,000 so they'll
0:54:20 > 0:54:24have to pay it back.
0:54:24 > 0:54:27If you pay for tuition fees, if the Government does
0:54:27 > 0:54:29and we don't have to, then the Government will
0:54:29 > 0:54:31know how much they have to spend on tuition fees.
0:54:31 > 0:54:33At the moment they don't know.
0:54:33 > 0:54:38They don't know if 20,000 people are going to not pay
0:54:38 > 0:54:41or they will know that they have to pay and not who won't pay.
0:54:41 > 0:54:42You in the front?
0:54:42 > 0:54:45In Scotland, obviously they don't pay for tuition fees
0:54:45 > 0:54:47going to university.
0:54:47 > 0:54:49If they're Scottish, the English pay, of course.
0:54:49 > 0:54:54But from my understanding, there's a lot less places for people
0:54:54 > 0:54:57to go to university because that Government are paying
0:54:57 > 0:55:01so if we had free fees surely there would be a lot less places
0:55:01 > 0:55:04in England for students.
0:55:04 > 0:55:08Charles Moore?
0:55:08 > 0:55:13This is a very important point that's just been made.
0:55:13 > 0:55:15Because there are no tuition fees in Scotland for Scots,
0:55:15 > 0:55:18the serious problem with this is that the universities
0:55:18 > 0:55:20don't get enough money.
0:55:20 > 0:55:24The universities themselves mind very much.
0:55:24 > 0:55:27They don't quite like saying it because it sounds as if they're
0:55:27 > 0:55:29indifferent to the sufferings of those that have to pay the money.
0:55:29 > 0:55:34To be world class universities, they have to get in more
0:55:34 > 0:55:37money than you can get in from Government payment.
0:55:37 > 0:55:41So what happens in Scotland and I know this because our son
0:55:41 > 0:55:44was in a Scottish university and he's English, and he paid
0:55:44 > 0:55:46the full whack therefore but what that means
0:55:46 > 0:55:50is that the Scottish Government actually Scottish university rather
0:55:50 > 0:55:52want more English students because they get more money
0:55:52 > 0:55:55and they want more foreign students because they get more money
0:55:55 > 0:55:57and they don't want more Scottish students
0:55:57 > 0:56:00because they get less money.
0:56:00 > 0:56:02If you think about the ultimate benefit of the education
0:56:02 > 0:56:05the universities can provide, there have to be higher fees.
0:56:05 > 0:56:09That's why it all came about that it went up to ?9,000 when it used
0:56:09 > 0:56:12to be ?3,000 and so on, because otherwise you are going to
0:56:12 > 0:56:14get very weak university education.
0:56:14 > 0:56:18Nobody benefits and you're not learning anything.
0:56:18 > 0:56:21Jonathan Bartley?
0:56:21 > 0:56:24We only have a minute left?
0:56:24 > 0:56:27I have to challenge the idea that there's somehow an inevitability
0:56:27 > 0:56:29about bringing in tuition fees, Vince.
0:56:29 > 0:56:31The only inevitability was that you saw the young
0:56:31 > 0:56:34people and you thought, they are an easy target.
0:56:34 > 0:56:35No.
0:56:35 > 0:56:36That is why you went for them.
0:56:36 > 0:56:38And you broke your promise.
0:56:38 > 0:56:44It is the big corporations who benefit from the education
0:56:44 > 0:56:45that's given to graduates.
0:56:45 > 0:56:53They're the one who is make the excess profits of this
0:56:53 > 0:56:55They're the ones who make the excess profits of this education,
0:56:55 > 0:56:56it's time they gave back.
0:56:56 > 0:56:58Now, there is enough money around.
0:56:58 > 0:57:00There is this lie that there's not enough money.
0:57:00 > 0:57:02The problem is not there is not enough money,
0:57:02 > 0:57:04the money is in the wrong hands.
0:57:04 > 0:57:05APPLAUSE.
0:57:05 > 0:57:08We have had corporation tax cut and cut and cut since 2010.
0:57:08 > 0:57:09From 27% down to 19%.
0:57:09 > 0:57:12If we reverse the cuts, that's not even up to the EU average
0:57:12 > 0:57:15level or the G7 average level, we'd still be lowerer
0:57:15 > 0:57:17level or the G7 average level, we'd still be lower,
0:57:17 > 0:57:20we could raise ?9 billion a year, rising to ?12 billion a year
0:57:20 > 0:57:23which would be enough, not just to get rid of tuition
0:57:23 > 0:57:24fees but to reintroduce a maintenance grant.
0:57:24 > 0:57:28That's what I want for my daughter who is about to go to university.
0:57:28 > 0:57:31I don't want our public sector debt taken away from the public sector
0:57:31 > 0:57:33and put around the necks of our young people.
0:57:33 > 0:57:35That is not the future that we need.
0:57:35 > 0:57:36APPLAUSE.
0:57:36 > 0:57:37Thank you.
0:57:37 > 0:57:39There are many hands up.
0:57:39 > 0:57:41I'm sorry, we have to stop because our time's up, as ever.
0:57:41 > 0:57:45We are going to be in Belfast next week, we are going to be in Barnet
0:57:45 > 0:57:47in north London the week after that.
0:57:47 > 0:57:50A reminder of the leader specials, Theresa May and Jeremy Corbyn
0:57:50 > 0:57:53in York on Friday 2nd June and Nicola Sturgeon and Tim Farron
0:57:53 > 0:57:55on Sunday 4th in Edinburgh, not head-to-head but one
0:57:55 > 0:57:56after the other.
0:57:56 > 0:57:59If you want to argue with them, quiz them, the details of how
0:57:59 > 0:58:00to apply are on the screen.
0:58:00 > 0:58:03If you are listening to this on Five Live,
0:58:03 > 0:58:03If you are listening to this on Five Live,
0:58:03 > 0:58:07I was going to say the debate goes on, but there is a phone-in
0:58:07 > 0:58:09discussion, it's not the debate because everybody here goes home.
0:58:09 > 0:58:13That was on Question Time extra time.
0:58:13 > 0:58:16The panel and audience go home.
0:58:16 > 0:58:19My thanks to the panel and to all of you who came
0:58:19 > 0:58:21to Norwich to take part in this edition of Question Time.
0:58:21 > 0:58:23Until next Thursday, good night.