:00:07. > :00:10.Tonight, we're in Salford in Greater Manchester for a special
:00:11. > :00:12.programme focusing on the impact of Monday's shocking events
:00:13. > :00:29.With us tonight, Home Secretary Amber Rudd.
:00:30. > :00:32.The Mayor of Greater Manchester and former Cabinet
:00:33. > :00:38.Colin Parry who set up the Tim Parry Jonathan Ball Foundation for Peace
:00:39. > :00:42.after his son died in the Warrington bombings in 1993.
:00:43. > :00:46.The counter-extremism campaigner and former advisor
:00:47. > :00:54.And the head of the Police and Crime Commissioners Association
:00:55. > :01:07.and former Chief Prosecutor for North West England Nazir Afzal.
:01:08. > :01:11.Election campaigning remains suspended until tomorrow so we don't
:01:12. > :01:16.have our usual multi-party panel for tonight's Question Time,
:01:17. > :01:32.We take our first question from Darren Halcott, please.
:01:33. > :01:35.As a father of three young girls living here in Manchester,
:01:36. > :01:38.I find it hard to come to terms with Monday night's atrocities.
:01:39. > :01:39.What decisive action should Government take
:01:40. > :01:44.What actions should the Government take, Amber Rudd?
:01:45. > :01:48.I find it hard to come to terms with as well as a mother of two children.
:01:49. > :01:51.The important thing for us to do now is to concentrate
:01:52. > :01:55.on allowing the police and the Intelligence Services
:01:56. > :02:01.There may be lessons to learn afterwards.
:02:02. > :02:05.We have some very strong Counter-Terrorism programmes
:02:06. > :02:08.in place which we may discuss later today, but I think the important
:02:09. > :02:11.thing now is to allow the operation to complete.
:02:12. > :02:15.It's an ongoing investigation and what we saw on Tuesday or Monday
:02:16. > :02:21.But we also saw some extraordinary compassion and strength
:02:22. > :02:29.It's something that the emergency services, the NHS had rehearsed
:02:30. > :02:35.But when it did happen, the operation worked incredibly
:02:36. > :02:37.smoothly and I would like to take the opportunity, if I may,
:02:38. > :02:40.to thank the emergency services and the NHS staff
:02:41. > :02:51.And what was the point of bringing the army out on to the streets?
:02:52. > :02:58.We have been at threat level of severe since 2013.
:02:59. > :03:02.We have moved to critical because it's an ongoing operation.
:03:03. > :03:07.The fact is that when it's at that stage, we have the option to call
:03:08. > :03:11.in Operation Tempera which allows army military support to be drawn
:03:12. > :03:16.It will allow, I hope, Sir, for you and your family to feel
:03:17. > :03:18.more secure when you go around your every day life.
:03:19. > :03:25.In this period of critical which we hope will only last a few
:03:26. > :03:28.days, it could be longer, it will depend on the operation,
:03:29. > :03:31.we have pulled out additional support from the army so that we can
:03:32. > :03:38.Events in Manchester and further afield can take place with extra
:03:39. > :03:45.Nazia Afzal, Do you agree That that is the proper action to take?
:03:46. > :03:49.It's necessary at the moment because it's an ongoing investigation.
:03:50. > :03:53.We have had this before, the second or third time in ten
:03:54. > :04:05.years where we've had to go to what should haves
:04:06. > :04:08.years where we've had to go to what involves
:04:09. > :04:11.the Armed Forces behind the wire to enable police officers to go out
:04:12. > :04:15.I think it's a necessary thing but previous examples tell us it
:04:16. > :04:18.only lasts five or seven days, so once we have got this inquiry
:04:19. > :04:22.to a point where we are safe, then the army can go back to doing
:04:23. > :04:28.To answer the gentleman's question, I love Manchester, I've
:04:29. > :04:33.I am amazed at your resilience, your tolerance.
:04:34. > :04:36.I was at the vigil on Tuesday night with colleagues here, some of them,
:04:37. > :04:38.and I was touched by it all and I cried.
:04:39. > :04:40.I cried when people started chanting "Manchester,
:04:41. > :04:42.Manchester, Manchester", I cried today when people
:04:43. > :04:45.were having a one-minute silence and people started singing,
:04:46. > :04:46.don't look back in anger immediately afterwards.
:04:47. > :04:49.That is what Manchester is special for.
:04:50. > :04:52.In terms of what you do now, you do what I've done,
:04:53. > :04:55.which is to have a conversation with your children because they're
:04:56. > :04:59.probably keeping things to themselves and it's about giving
:05:00. > :05:04.them the ability to talk about what they feel.
:05:05. > :05:08.They're doing it in their schools but we can do it in our homes.
:05:09. > :05:09.Darren's question was, what decisive action
:05:10. > :05:15.They should do what the Home Secretary said, allow the police
:05:16. > :05:19.I know Greater Manchester Police well being the Chief Prosecutor
:05:20. > :05:24.They're extremely effective when it comes to serious and organised crime
:05:25. > :05:26.and I know how effective they are in this operation.
:05:27. > :05:29.At the same time, there is a conversation we'll have
:05:30. > :05:31.during the course of this evening about what needs to happen
:05:32. > :05:34.around deradicalisation, what more we can do around
:05:35. > :05:36.controlling the threat that we are facing, how we can
:05:37. > :05:39.ensure that we get more information from the communities,
:05:40. > :05:42.people know now that much of what we know about that
:05:43. > :05:43.particular suspect, or that particular bomber,
:05:44. > :05:45.let's put it bluntly, came from the communities
:05:46. > :05:51.So how do we engage, how do we ensure the people are able
:05:52. > :05:53.to provide information so the Security Services
:05:54. > :05:58.But you're involved closely with the police.
:05:59. > :06:05.When the Chief Constable of Manchester said "I think it's
:06:06. > :06:08.clear that this is a network that we are investigating",
:06:09. > :06:12.were you surprised at that, given that the police,
:06:13. > :06:15.the job of the police is to spot these networks before they emerge?
:06:16. > :06:17.I'm not going to speak for policing tonight,
:06:18. > :06:20.I don't speak for the commissioners, but what I can tell you based
:06:21. > :06:26.We've had sadly a number of incidents across Europe
:06:27. > :06:28.which have been low level in terms of sophistication, a man
:06:29. > :06:31.with a knife, a truck that caused enormous damage and misery.
:06:32. > :06:35.What we have had here, as we all know, is somebody
:06:36. > :06:38.with a little bit more sophistication and evidently
:06:39. > :06:42.the evidence is suggesting a wider network involved.
:06:43. > :06:44.I know for a fact that Greater Manchester Police
:06:45. > :06:49.That's part of the reason why we've gone to getting the Armed Forces
:06:50. > :06:51.to support certainly allow police officers to be out doing
:06:52. > :06:57.So I'm satisfied that the police are doing a phenomenal job this time
:06:58. > :06:59.around but they're doing it with the assistance
:07:00. > :07:03.Darren, let me come back to you before we come back
:07:04. > :07:07.What do you make of what we have heard so far?
:07:08. > :07:10.What the police and the Security Services are doing is obviously
:07:11. > :07:13.commentedable but I think my issue is that everything you have
:07:14. > :07:15.described there is reactionary, so I'm interested to know
:07:16. > :07:18.what we are doing to prevent things like this happening.
:07:19. > :07:25.Well, like you, I found it very hard to come to terms
:07:26. > :07:30.I've got young girls like you, I've been coming out of that arena
:07:31. > :07:32.at that time of night, I can picture that scene,
:07:33. > :07:36.we all could, it could have been any of us, I think we all feel that
:07:37. > :07:40.and our hearts go out to the familieses.
:07:41. > :07:41.and our hearts go out to the families.
:07:42. > :07:48.To target children, young families in that way is unthinkably
:07:49. > :07:51.I support what the Prime Minister and the Home Secretary
:07:52. > :07:53.have done this week, they have taken decisive
:07:54. > :07:55.action and we should give them credit for that.
:07:56. > :07:58.Going forward, I think we do need a conversation about police
:07:59. > :08:02.resources with the terror threat high, with hate crime up,
:08:03. > :08:05.violent crime up, you can't keep the police funding line going down
:08:06. > :08:07.and down, we have to have a conversation about that.
:08:08. > :08:10.On your point, we have to do better at identifying people
:08:11. > :08:12.in our communities at risk of radicalisation, work
:08:13. > :08:15.with the Muslim communities, put more onus on them to help us
:08:16. > :08:18.Just to say, this has been our darkest hour.
:08:19. > :08:21.I would also say we have seen the best of Greater Manchester
:08:22. > :08:26.I couldn't be more proud of what I've seen.
:08:27. > :08:30.I'm proud of the public servants who dropped everything and came
:08:31. > :08:33.into work on Monday night, proud of the people who opened
:08:34. > :08:37.their doors to strangers and drove them around the city,
:08:38. > :08:40.I'm proud of the two homeless people who came and helped children,
:08:41. > :08:45.But most of all, I am proud of the people of Greater Manchester.
:08:46. > :08:48.They have said to the terrorists, we refuse to follow your trap
:08:49. > :08:52.and start dividing and blaming each other, we are not going to be beaten
:08:53. > :08:55.by this, we will stand together and I tell you tonight,
:08:56. > :08:58.this is the greatest City of the world and I
:08:59. > :09:22.Remember you can join in on Twitter and Facebook.
:09:23. > :09:26.Do you think it could have been possible to know about this bomb?
:09:27. > :09:32.It's hard to give a definitive answer. What I would say is that, in
:09:33. > :09:36.my view, neighbourhood policing is the first building block of an
:09:37. > :09:40.effective intelligence system. The eyes and ears on the grown in those
:09:41. > :09:46.communities feeding information back. If you allow neighbourhood
:09:47. > :09:49.policing to become too eroded and if there aren't enough police on our
:09:50. > :09:52.streets, it does become a problem. I'm not saying that did in any way
:09:53. > :09:56.contribute, it's too early to say that. I'm certainly not saying there
:09:57. > :09:59.was a problem with the number of people who responded because the
:10:00. > :10:03.response in my view was excellent, but I think we have to have a debate
:10:04. > :10:07.now about whether or not the front line police force can be put. I
:10:08. > :10:10.don't believe it can and I think I would say this now needs to become
:10:11. > :10:12.an issue in the election campaign once we have dealt with the
:10:13. > :10:20.immediate events of this week. APPLAUSE.
:10:21. > :10:26.. You, Sir, in the pink shirt? The resources were already there in
:10:27. > :10:30.2015, Theresa May the then Home Secretary was addressing the Police
:10:31. > :10:33.Federation and told them they were scaremongering because she was
:10:34. > :10:38.reducing the police numbers. The Police Federation said at the time
:10:39. > :10:42.that low level intelligence is what gives them the information and is
:10:43. > :10:46.able to feed those on to the Intelligence Services about
:10:47. > :10:50.terrorist activity. We are now 20,000 people or police officers
:10:51. > :10:55.down and we get atrocities like this. Does the Government not expect
:10:56. > :11:01.this? I have to say, I don't accept that. I have asked the head of
:11:02. > :11:05.Counter-Terrorism whether it's about resources. It is not. There may be a
:11:06. > :11:10.conversation to have about policing, we may have that at some stage but
:11:11. > :11:13.now is not that conversation. We must not imply that the terrorist
:11:14. > :11:16.activity wouldn't have taken place if there had been more policing.
:11:17. > :11:19.Good Counter-Terrorism activity is because you have a close
:11:20. > :11:24.relationship between the policing and the Intelligence Services.
:11:25. > :11:27.That's what we have. That's why the UK has the strong counterterrorist
:11:28. > :11:31.network. It's also about making sure that we get in early on
:11:32. > :11:34.radicalisation but it's not about those pure numbers on the street, as
:11:35. > :11:41.you have implied, Sir. APPLAUSE.
:11:42. > :11:46.Do you want to come back on that? It's low level intelligence which
:11:47. > :11:51.gives you the information so I think it's about the numbers. The
:11:52. > :11:54.Intelligence Services are telling us that, you know, they're tracking
:11:55. > :11:58.telephone calls, looking at e-mails, stuff like this, and again, the
:11:59. > :12:04.Chief Constable said that this is a network of people, this wasn't a
:12:05. > :12:07.loan wolf attack, this was a well-organised network. So where
:12:08. > :12:11.were the Intelligence Services and wrrn they getting that information.
:12:12. > :12:15.It's not where we get the intelligence from, it's more from
:12:16. > :12:20.the prevent strategy, which is community-led within the communities
:12:21. > :12:23.which engages with local activities, local groups, not through the police
:12:24. > :12:29.largely, it's about having a strategy to engage in the community
:12:30. > :12:32.which is community-led. You are just agreeing with my argument, we have
:12:33. > :12:34.lost the community officers. It's not about policing so much as
:12:35. > :12:40.engaging with community leaders in the area. Colin Parry? I think one
:12:41. > :12:45.to have great characteristics of the British people is that we are
:12:46. > :12:50.realists. Not necessarily idealists. The reality is that with three times
:12:51. > :12:53.the police force strength in the UK we can't possibly stop every single
:12:54. > :13:02.attack and there will be attacks that get through. That's the awful
:13:03. > :13:06.truth. I think what the Government does is perhaps in need of extra
:13:07. > :13:10.effort. That's not really a matter for me to say how many police
:13:11. > :13:13.officers we have and putting the Armed Forces on the streets is a
:13:14. > :13:16.show of strength, I don't know whether it actually makes a lot of
:13:17. > :13:20.difference. The problem is, the people that do this do it to divide
:13:21. > :13:25.the country, they want to set Muslims against, if you like, the
:13:26. > :13:28.British indigenous people and they want to cause discord and discontent
:13:29. > :13:33.and get the two groups to never talk. We have to do, as a nation, is
:13:34. > :13:38.accept that we can't live in silos, we have to integrate and accept each
:13:39. > :13:43.other, this is a multicultural, multinational multiethnic country.
:13:44. > :13:48.The sooner we recognise this, we are never going back to 1930, we have
:13:49. > :13:51.got to integrate in 2017, be friendlier, talk to each other and
:13:52. > :13:58.do things together. Civil society has to play a part.
:13:59. > :14:06.Time I wanted to ask Amber Rudd, how well thought through has been the
:14:07. > :14:09.decision to deploy troops? Obviously, the period of deployment
:14:10. > :14:13.is overlapping the beginning of the campaign season. As people begin to
:14:14. > :14:16.engage in protest and demonstrations, what are the risks
:14:17. > :14:23.that in the event that these protests become violent, that the
:14:24. > :14:26.Armed Forces could use live ammunition against protesters? What
:14:27. > :14:31.are the rules of engagement governing the relationship between
:14:32. > :14:35.the police, the Armed Forces and potential encounters with people
:14:36. > :14:36.engaging in normal political protest activity which may potentially
:14:37. > :14:39.become violent? The movement of the threat level
:14:40. > :14:41.from severe to critical, which is part of this process,
:14:42. > :14:44.is done by an independent body. I need everyone to appreciate
:14:45. > :14:48.that is not a government process, that is done by an independent body,
:14:49. > :14:51.the Joint Terrorist Analysis Centre. And in terms of the troops that
:14:52. > :14:54.come from the military, they are under the authority
:14:55. > :14:57.of the police as they operate, and They go to the areas that
:14:58. > :15:03.are requested by the police, and they will make sure
:15:04. > :15:05.that they are operating And I think you should take some
:15:06. > :15:10.comfort from the fact that our military do support
:15:11. > :15:13.the police in this way. There are other incidents where
:15:14. > :15:20.they have worked together closely. And I would also say that we only
:15:21. > :15:23.expect it to be temporary. So I would hope, as was said
:15:24. > :15:26.before, that this should We are sensitive to the fact
:15:27. > :15:31.that it is during an election period but it's got nothing to do
:15:32. > :15:34.with the fact that we have this operation, we have
:15:35. > :15:36.to keep people safe, and these procedures
:15:37. > :15:39.have to be put in place. I think it's important for me
:15:40. > :15:42.to back up what we have just heard. I can say as well, this has not been
:15:43. > :15:46.a political decision. The effect of it has been to allow
:15:47. > :15:49.more police officers, specially trained police officers,
:15:50. > :15:51.to be deployed on the streets You may have seen some
:15:52. > :15:56.of them around this week. It has been an exceptionally
:15:57. > :16:00.difficult week. Of course, at the beginning
:16:01. > :16:03.of the week, there wasn't clarity about how far the network spread
:16:04. > :16:06.and what the scale of the issue In my view, the government
:16:07. > :16:11.of the right action. I think it's important
:16:12. > :16:13.for me to say that. The events on Monday evening
:16:14. > :16:20.were truly distressing. I've lived and studied in this great
:16:21. > :16:23.city for four years, and an attack on the people
:16:24. > :16:26.of Manchester is indeed I want to answer both
:16:27. > :16:33.of your questions, because I think The Government absolutely
:16:34. > :16:37.have a role to play in protecting That's probably one
:16:38. > :16:40.of their most important And my view very much is that
:16:41. > :16:50.in order to counter terrorism, to counter radicalisation,
:16:51. > :16:52.it needs to be a holistic, You need to have a bottom-up
:16:53. > :16:56.approach, where society groups, antiracism organisations,
:16:57. > :16:58.families, communities, faith institutions, mosques,
:16:59. > :17:03.for example, they all have a role. We will probably talk about this
:17:04. > :17:05.later as we talk about how to prevent radicalisation,
:17:06. > :17:09.but there is an important role that can be played
:17:10. > :17:12.from a bottom-up approach. Government has a top-down
:17:13. > :17:15.responsibility, and that includes also taking down pieces of illegal
:17:16. > :17:18.material of the internet, engaging with social media sites,
:17:19. > :17:21.for example, making sure I think it has to be very much
:17:22. > :17:27.a multipronged approach. Your second question is very
:17:28. > :17:30.pertinent, because what we have to recognise right now is that this
:17:31. > :17:33.attack that happened on Monday follows in a long line of a number
:17:34. > :17:36.of attacks that have hit this country, particularly
:17:37. > :17:41.in the last 20 years. In 2000, MI5 discovered Britain's
:17:42. > :17:43.first Islamist bomb-making factory. In 2007, Glasgow
:17:44. > :17:50.airport got attacked. We've had since that time hundreds
:17:51. > :17:53.of people who have been convicted We've had hundreds of people
:17:54. > :17:56.leave our country to join Isis, to live in their territory
:17:57. > :18:02.and support jihadist organisations. In my view, the struggle,
:18:03. > :18:04.and it is a struggle now against Islamist extremism,
:18:05. > :18:06.has increased in potency, And we have to ask ourselves,
:18:07. > :18:13.are we doing enough, are we upscaling our work
:18:14. > :18:16.to recognise the current threat. And the current threat
:18:17. > :18:17.is coming from there. And just really, really very
:18:18. > :18:20.quickly, as a country, we have stood up against fascism,
:18:21. > :18:22.racism and terrorism. During the Second World War,
:18:23. > :18:27.we stood up to fascism. We challenged the National
:18:28. > :18:29.Front in the 1970s. But the fact of the matter is that
:18:30. > :18:35.right now the biggest threat that we are facing comes
:18:36. > :18:37.from Islamist inspired terrorism, who, as Colin said,
:18:38. > :18:40.rightly want to divide us, And the fact of the matter is that
:18:41. > :18:48.if we want to defeat this threat we all have to together make
:18:49. > :18:54.a difference and play our part. We've got so many
:18:55. > :18:59.questions, I'd like to go Before I do, remember,
:19:00. > :19:07.if you are watching this at home you can join
:19:08. > :19:09.in on Twitter and Facebook. And push the red button to see
:19:10. > :19:20.what others are saying. While I am on about it,
:19:21. > :19:23.just a reminder that Question Time will be in Barnet next week,
:19:24. > :19:26.and the details are on screen in a moment and I will
:19:27. > :19:28.give them at the end. Let's have a question
:19:29. > :19:30.from Lloyd Cawthorne, please. How can we prevent Brits
:19:31. > :19:34.from being radicalised? Well, we have a strategy that
:19:35. > :19:38.perhaps is not as well My conversations with
:19:39. > :19:44.the Home Secretary's colleagues in the Home Office around
:19:45. > :19:46.the Prevent strategy, which some people booed earlier
:19:47. > :19:49.when it was mentioned. Prevent is actually
:19:50. > :19:50.just safeguarding. That was safeguarding
:19:51. > :19:56.children from sexual abuse. I've dealt with cases
:19:57. > :19:57.involving safeguarding people from going into criminality
:19:58. > :20:00.of other types. This is preventing people,
:20:01. > :20:03.safeguarding people from going down the route
:20:04. > :20:05.of extremism and radicalisation. And in a nutshell, just explain
:20:06. > :20:08.what it is that it does. People will identify the signs
:20:09. > :20:14.of somebody somewhere that might be at risk of either being a victim,
:20:15. > :20:17.or more likely, somebody that is so vulnerable
:20:18. > :20:19.that they are going to be groomed And identifying the signs and then
:20:20. > :20:28.referring that individual to an authority who provide them
:20:29. > :20:31.with mentors and support. It could be mental health support,
:20:32. > :20:33.it could be educational support. The concerns I've had around
:20:34. > :20:37.the Prevent strategy, which are historical,
:20:38. > :20:40.not my view right now because I have met with current colleagues,
:20:41. > :20:42.historically there has been poor There has been poor community
:20:43. > :20:46.engagement about it. There has been a poor
:20:47. > :20:49.narrative around this, and people really haven't understood
:20:50. > :20:52.that what it's all about is keeping our children safe and ensuring
:20:53. > :20:54.that our children don't get radicalised and don't get
:20:55. > :20:57.extracted by those people who are desperate to cultivate them,
:20:58. > :21:00.as this individual But Colin Parry, perhaps
:21:01. > :21:04.you could come in on this. There has been a lot
:21:05. > :21:07.of criticism of Prevent, because it means people telling
:21:08. > :21:09.on people in school, telling on their families
:21:10. > :21:19.and the rest of it. My foundation largely
:21:20. > :21:24.works on the principle And the early intervention happens
:21:25. > :21:31.when local authorities, Police and Crime Commissioners,
:21:32. > :21:33.local schools, identify warning signs, identify behaviours
:21:34. > :21:36.which are causing concern, and then ask organisations such
:21:37. > :21:38.as mine to apply the kind of programmes we've built up down
:21:39. > :21:44.the years to bring version people to the Peace Centre in Warrington,
:21:45. > :21:47.and then we work with them very closely and we try to strip back
:21:48. > :21:51.where the views are coming from, what they are based on,
:21:52. > :21:54.where have they been fed this often perverse and twisted ideology,
:21:55. > :21:57.and get them to mix with people And believe it or not,
:21:58. > :22:04.and I can prove this to be absolutely the case,
:22:05. > :22:06.going back to the days of the IRA, you can, if you cultivate the right
:22:07. > :22:09.atmosphere in a safe environment, you can get people who would
:22:10. > :22:11.otherwise never meet, who have no regard for each other,
:22:12. > :22:14.to eventually start I ended up with a very warm
:22:15. > :22:18.relationship with somebody that most people in this country would have
:22:19. > :22:20.never imagined I would have a warm relationship
:22:21. > :22:22.with, Martin McGuinness. You might say why the hell
:22:23. > :22:24.did Colin Parry speak The very fact is that
:22:25. > :22:28.Martin McGuinness in the end became Now, if conversation can be
:22:29. > :22:34.encouraged, if meetings can be I don't say you can cure everything
:22:35. > :22:40.but I will tell you what, Andy Burnham,
:22:41. > :22:50.you said back in June last year, "I do feel that the brand
:22:51. > :22:54.that is Prevent is so toxic now that Can you explain why you feel it's
:22:55. > :22:59.not the right approach, unless you've changed your
:23:00. > :23:01.view on it? I'm not saying that we don't need
:23:02. > :23:06.a programme that works in communities to identify people
:23:07. > :23:09.at risk of radicalisation. We most certainly do need
:23:10. > :23:12.a programme to do that. The debate is about
:23:13. > :23:16.how do we do that. And the problem is, as you said
:23:17. > :23:20.before, Prevent works on the principle that the community,
:23:21. > :23:22.the Muslim community in particular, is under suspicion,
:23:23. > :23:25.under surveillance. And I think this was felt
:23:26. > :23:28.by the Catholic community in Northern Ireland,
:23:29. > :23:32.there were policies aimed at them It can actually become
:23:33. > :23:36.counter-productive. It can actually radicalise,
:23:37. > :23:38.if people feel they So I think there is the need
:23:39. > :23:46.for a fundamental review of Prevent. It should be cross-party,
:23:47. > :23:53.this review. And I think it needs to start again,
:23:54. > :23:56.working on a basis of trust with community organisations,
:23:57. > :23:57.particularly in And let's say, be fair, we expect
:23:58. > :24:02.them to do more to help us, to provide information,
:24:03. > :24:06.to be able to take action. It's gone wrong, it's become
:24:07. > :24:14.quite a state approach. There is a statutory duty now
:24:15. > :24:17.on public bodies to report. And there was a young man
:24:18. > :24:21.on the radio this morning saying the quality of Prevent
:24:22. > :24:25.officers varies greatly. Some confuse what is normal
:24:26. > :24:33.religious activity for extremism. So you can imagine how if somebody
:24:34. > :24:36.is reported to the police for carrying out their faith,
:24:37. > :24:38.for worshipping, and all of a sudden they are under suspicion,
:24:39. > :24:41.you can imagine how that creates So I think we have
:24:42. > :24:44.to get this right. We need to get in early and identify
:24:45. > :24:49.those at risk of radicalisation. But we have to acknowledge that
:24:50. > :24:52.the current programme isn't working. And it's true, that name,
:24:53. > :24:55.Prevent, is toxic and parts And is it only the Muslim
:24:56. > :25:03.community that Prevent... Is it right-wing,
:25:04. > :25:05.English Defence League, I am sure the Home
:25:06. > :25:11.Secretary would explain. I think the point is,
:25:12. > :25:14.it's felt by the Muslim community that the resources are predominantly
:25:15. > :25:16.targeted at them. We have radicalisation
:25:17. > :25:19.on the right of politics. We've seen somebody kill my friend
:25:20. > :25:22.Jo Cox in the last year, and we need to have a debate
:25:23. > :25:24.about radicalisation I think this is the problem,
:25:25. > :25:28.that it's seen as though it's all about the Muslim community,
:25:29. > :25:30.and that creates the backlash. I think what's happening
:25:31. > :25:34.is that we need to look We can always review
:25:35. > :25:44.a strategy and can look. And going on from the terrible
:25:45. > :25:46.events that happened this week in Manchester,
:25:47. > :25:48.we owe it to the people I am delighted we have some
:25:49. > :25:51.cross-party agreement because that's what we,
:25:52. > :25:54.as a country, need to move forward. And let's not, when we start
:25:55. > :25:56.the manifesto season again for the next couple of weeks,
:25:57. > :25:59.please let's remember that by cooperating we will
:26:00. > :26:05.get further quicker. And I definitely think that's
:26:06. > :26:08.what I'd like to see moving forward. I'm concerned about
:26:09. > :26:11.what Andy was saying. I think anybody who's prepared
:26:12. > :26:15.to do the sort of things we've seen recently,
:26:16. > :26:20.in terms radical Islamic terrorism, anybody who does that on the basis
:26:21. > :26:23.that we've got a Prevent strategy, which is trying to help people,
:26:24. > :26:26.actually, there is something wrong I think the problem
:26:27. > :26:32.comes from the mosques. I've got something I wanted to read
:26:33. > :26:35.you which actually came from Didsbury mosque,
:26:36. > :26:37.because I spend my time actually And this is direct
:26:38. > :26:42.from Didsbury mosque. This is a leaflet I was
:26:43. > :26:46.given on an open day. And this says, "Living in a society
:26:47. > :26:49.in which people have accepted Western lifestyle as their way
:26:50. > :26:51.of life brings immorality Modesty, shame and honour have no
:26:52. > :27:00.place in Western civilisation". That is direct from Didsbury mosque,
:27:01. > :27:03.and that was given in a very And that is what Muslims
:27:04. > :27:12.are listening to. There are a lot of good
:27:13. > :27:15.Muslims, but they are not All right, from the
:27:16. > :27:21.woman there in blue. The Muslim community has been
:27:22. > :27:32.accused by some politicians and media anchors of not doing
:27:33. > :27:36.enough, and almost in denial, or even complicit with
:27:37. > :27:43.the threat of extremism. Yet the Manchester Muslim community,
:27:44. > :27:45.at risk to themselves, reported Salman Abedi
:27:46. > :27:47.for his militant views. Isn't this a catastrophic failure
:27:48. > :27:50.of Theresa May's security, What do you make of what the man up
:27:51. > :28:05.there said about the pamphlet All I can say that I have been
:28:06. > :28:10.an attendee of Didsbury mosque for 30 years or so,
:28:11. > :28:13.and Didsbury mosque is a mosque that opens its doors to non-Muslims
:28:14. > :28:15.every week on a Sunday. It's a mosque that invites
:28:16. > :28:18.in women, men, people And where that has come
:28:19. > :28:22.from, I don't know. That's absolutely correct,
:28:23. > :28:24.and that was given to me You get tea and biscuits,
:28:25. > :28:31.very nice people. I got involved, having
:28:32. > :28:39.debates with young women. Two lines taken out of context
:28:40. > :28:42.about Didsbury mosque is unfair. How is talking about Western
:28:43. > :28:49.civilisation out of context? We don't know who handed it
:28:50. > :28:52.to you, or who wrote it. It's a charity leaflet that's given
:28:53. > :28:59.out officially from Didsbury mosque I want people to listen
:29:00. > :29:09.to me very carefully. I was born in Manchester,
:29:10. > :29:14.I was raised in Manchester. I am a proud Manc
:29:15. > :29:16.and a proud Muslim. And I'm hurting after
:29:17. > :29:21.what happened on Monday. And what happened on Monday
:29:22. > :29:30.night was an evil act, an abhorrent act that
:29:31. > :29:31.should be condemned And to think that somebody can
:29:32. > :29:42.target small girls, and anybody, but small girls in particular,
:29:43. > :29:45.to carry out evil, should be said I'm sitting next to a reverend here,
:29:46. > :29:50.a friend that I've known And it seems that Muslims seem to be
:29:51. > :29:54.the target and collateral damage Islam is not the reason that
:29:55. > :29:58.people do bad things. People do bad things
:29:59. > :29:59.because they are evil And I think that after these things
:30:00. > :30:03.happen, Islamophobia increases. Let us please not let
:30:04. > :30:06.people who hate and want We should work together,
:30:07. > :30:12.stand shoulder to shoulder and say we will not accept hate and we stand
:30:13. > :30:14.against Islamophobia, and we condemn all sorts
:30:15. > :30:32.of evil in all its forms. We have veered away from the
:30:33. > :30:39.original question, how we prevent Brits from radicalisation. You have
:30:40. > :30:45.heard what Andy Burnham saying the right signal not being sent out.
:30:46. > :30:51.What is your answer? I met a woman recently who came home and found her
:30:52. > :30:55.16-year-old son had just gone, just gone to Syria and she hasn't been in
:30:56. > :31:01.touch with him, she probably won't see him again. She calleded for help
:31:02. > :31:05.and the Prevent coordinator sent someone to see her who was able to
:31:06. > :31:11.engage with her and her other children. There was two teenage
:31:12. > :31:16.girls who needed the support that was available through the Prevent
:31:17. > :31:21.strategy to make sure that they didn't become radicalised as she had
:31:22. > :31:25.as well, or as her brother had. Last year, it stopped, we stopped 150
:31:26. > :31:37.people from going to Syria to fight, of which 50 were children. There is
:31:38. > :31:38.really strong evidence of Prevent initiatives stopping
:31:39. > :31:42.deradicalisation and saving people's lives. I would like everybody's help
:31:43. > :31:47.here making sure we speak up for the good work that is done by Prevent.
:31:48. > :31:51.The foundation for peace here is one of the largest providers in the
:31:52. > :31:57.area. Andy, I don't think you would criticise the foundation for peace
:31:58. > :32:01.for the fantastic work that they do. We have 142 community-led
:32:02. > :32:05.organisations. This is not about police-led, it's about community-led
:32:06. > :32:11.organisations, we do exactly as Ian said, safeguard young people. When
:32:12. > :32:14.you say you stopped 150 people last year going to Syria, do you mean you
:32:15. > :32:17.wouldn't allow them to leave the country or do you mean you think you
:32:18. > :32:23.prevented them from leaving the country? There is more evidence of
:32:24. > :32:27.stopping them at the airport but there's evidence we've stopped 150
:32:28. > :32:34.people. I can't draw on any more detail than that. I do feel that we
:32:35. > :32:37.need to be stronger about the fact that Prevent is saving lives and
:32:38. > :32:41.helping people. It's doing good work and I would like more support trying
:32:42. > :32:45.to make sure that we get the message out. The final point I was trying to
:32:46. > :32:49.get over is that it's community-led, it's not about getting policemen
:32:50. > :32:52.involved, it's about making sure the local organisations like the
:32:53. > :32:57.foundation for peace are able to engage with young people on that
:32:58. > :33:00.level. It's not about the Government being, as Sara said, bottom up, it's
:33:01. > :33:01.about the Government providing support for the communities to work
:33:02. > :33:06.it out. APPLAUSE.
:33:07. > :33:10.You, Sir? To Amber Rudd. It's not about getting the police involved -
:33:11. > :33:15.where's my security, where are all these people's security coming from?
:33:16. > :33:19.We have PCSOs on the street that walk about with every other bit of
:33:20. > :33:23.kit I've seen including handcuffs that they do not have the power of
:33:24. > :33:29.arrest to use. Where's the security coming from? Where's MI5 in all of
:33:30. > :33:38.this? We have no mention of this tonight. We've got 13.3 billion a
:33:39. > :33:42.year going out to foreign aid. No, hold on a second... Money that
:33:43. > :33:45.should be saved in this country and looking after ourselves and I'm
:33:46. > :33:49.talking about everybody here. It doesn't matter what colour or creed
:33:50. > :33:55.we are, we look after ourselves first. OK. Let us secure this
:33:56. > :33:59.country. I can say that we have given additional funding to the
:34:00. > :34:03.Security Services, they got a 30% uplift because we are making sure we
:34:04. > :34:07.do invest in the Security Services. You are sending people to a country
:34:08. > :34:14.that has a space programme and a nuclear war programme. You, Sir? Do
:34:15. > :34:16.you agree with him? I have a slightly different point on
:34:17. > :34:21.radicalisation. We have taken off the lid. The perpetrator of this
:34:22. > :34:25.latest crime was Libyan, so we removed Gaddafi. We have had others
:34:26. > :34:29.come from various Muslim countries and we've removed Saddam Hussein.
:34:30. > :34:32.Why this Government, even Labour or Conservative before them, has taken
:34:33. > :34:37.us to places we don't understand the cultures or the politics of the
:34:38. > :34:42.people and why we have tried to be the policemen of the world I fail to
:34:43. > :34:46.understand because if we take our resources away from these
:34:47. > :34:50.activities, we could have the resources that Colin Parry and Sara
:34:51. > :34:53.Khan require because we could fund the integration and openness that we
:34:54. > :34:56.need. Instead, we are still in Afghanistan spending billions and
:34:57. > :35:05.it's just crazy. Sara Khan? I agree with Nazir when
:35:06. > :35:10.he says there appears to be a real misunderstanding about the aims and
:35:11. > :35:14.objectives of Prevent. Let's be very clear about what space Prevent
:35:15. > :35:19.operates in. It's not desirable or possible for the state to start
:35:20. > :35:22.arresting people because they become radicalised. You could become
:35:23. > :35:28.radicalised when you have not committed a criminal offence. So
:35:29. > :35:33.what do you do with the individuals? That's the space Prevent operates
:35:34. > :35:37.in. You hear people saying that it's about spying and surveillance, none
:35:38. > :35:42.of these things are relevant to Prevent at all, they are part of
:35:43. > :35:46.Pursue, another strand of the Government's Counter-Terrorism
:35:47. > :35:50.strategy. People often conflate Prevent with Pursue. This is a basic
:35:51. > :35:54.understanding and I would like to see the Government educate people
:35:55. > :35:59.about what is Prevent and what Prevent isn't. It's important also
:36:00. > :36:02.to recognise that it's not Prevent that is taxic, it's the discourse
:36:03. > :36:09.around Prevent that has become toxic. It's not the Prevent strategy
:36:10. > :36:13.that is the problem, it's the politicisation around Prevent which
:36:14. > :36:19.is increasingly becoming a problem. I've seen politicians, for example,
:36:20. > :36:24.make unfounded claims about Prevent saying that if a Muslim child no
:36:25. > :36:29.longer decides to eat at McDonald's, that will lead to a Prevent
:36:30. > :36:32.referral. Nonsense. I've sheered many false untruths about Prevent.
:36:33. > :36:35.How will that encourage trust between Muslims who want to do this
:36:36. > :36:42.work and with the Government? It doesn't. I'm going to really have to
:36:43. > :36:45.point this out also, the fact is in this country we have Muslim-led
:36:46. > :36:53.organisations who're actively seeking to make sure Prevent fails,
:36:54. > :36:58.and that is no surprise to anybody since 2011, organisations like Alma
:36:59. > :37:02.hajj ran which is prescribed run by the infamous am January Chowdry,
:37:03. > :37:08.they were at the forefront of saying, we see in Prevent a direct
:37:09. > :37:14.challenge to our attempt of trying to radicalise young Muslims -- Anjam
:37:15. > :37:24.Channel 4 Newsry. You are seeing them taking up that baton and
:37:25. > :37:32.spreading lies. Can I ask you about the work Prevent is doing, have you
:37:33. > :37:38.come across people saying to you, what the British Government is doing
:37:39. > :37:41.in our name is something we abhor? There is no black-and-white answer
:37:42. > :37:45.to this issue of foreign policy which we talk about all the time.
:37:46. > :37:50.When we look at people like Mohammad Sidique Khan, the ring leader of
:37:51. > :37:55.7/7, he made clear one of his prime motivations was our country's
:37:56. > :37:58.involvement in the Iraq war in 2003. I come across 13-year-old girls who
:37:59. > :38:02.tell me that they want to go and live in Isis caliphate because they
:38:03. > :38:08.think it's some sort of Islamic Disneyland. These girls weren't even
:38:09. > :38:16.born before the Iraq war in 2003, so foreign policy has no relevance to
:38:17. > :38:22.those individuals. They have been online, they have been reading
:38:23. > :38:25.Islamist propaganda and Isis propaganda which we are not
:38:26. > :38:31.countering enough. What are the parents doing about it? We have to
:38:32. > :38:34.have a multipronged approach. My organisation's delivered
:38:35. > :38:37.counternarratives to ideaologyists, to Muslim parents to equip them to
:38:38. > :38:42.build resilience in children. I want to make another point very quickly.
:38:43. > :38:48.We have to look at what Isis have said. Last year - they have an
:38:49. > :38:53.English online magazine - one of their editions last year, they made
:38:54. > :38:57.it clear foreign policy isn't the reason they seek to attack and kill
:38:58. > :39:00.us. They clearly said, we hate you first and foremost because you are
:39:01. > :39:11.disbelievers, because of our secular liberal values. That's what Isis
:39:12. > :39:15.themselves are saying. I want to come back... Andy Burnham? The
:39:16. > :39:21.individuals that commit these acts, and this was true in Paris as well,
:39:22. > :39:24.they did not live a devout Muslim lifestyle, they're not true Muslims
:39:25. > :39:28.in any way shape or form. The problem I hear is that the idea that
:39:29. > :39:33.the person who committed this awful atrocity this week or who attacked
:39:34. > :39:40.Westminster, suggestions that they in some way represent the Muslim
:39:41. > :39:50.community, they no more represent the Muslim community as the person
:39:51. > :39:56.who killed Jo Cox represents the white community. With respect, Sara
:39:57. > :40:05.Khan, you don't understand the Muslim community. I've just complete
:40:06. > :40:09.add both thesis event. I work in a school safeguarding, we don't want
:40:10. > :40:12.children radicalises, but the NUT said suspicion in the classroom,
:40:13. > :40:18.confusion in the staff room, that's what it's causing. We want the
:40:19. > :40:22.principles of Prevent, none of us want radicalisation but let's be
:40:23. > :40:27.clear that for Prevent to work, it has to first of all get on board and
:40:28. > :40:30.has to be community-led, not just with Government favourite
:40:31. > :40:34.organisations with grass root organisations like organisations I
:40:35. > :40:38.work with in Manchester so I think it needs to appeal to everybody and
:40:39. > :40:42.we are all on board with the principles of prevent no doubt.
:40:43. > :40:48.Let's root out the causes of terrorism. Let's not try and
:40:49. > :40:53.focus... Prevent duty guidance actually says how do you spot a
:40:54. > :40:58.terrorist basically and the chief reviewer David Anderson, his own
:40:59. > :41:04.report mentions certain facts that changes need to be made. The Home
:41:05. > :41:09.Secretary, the few examples that you quoted, I do agree there could be
:41:10. > :41:12.some benefit and I read about those examples where families were
:41:13. > :41:16.comforted. Those are far and few between. The channel referrals that
:41:17. > :41:19.have caused damage, the incorrect channel referrals unfortunately
:41:20. > :41:22.because it's maybe lack of experience have caused far more
:41:23. > :41:26.damage within innocent families. Thank you very much. Nazir?
:41:27. > :41:29.APPLAUSE. Can I say, what you said is
:41:30. > :41:32.absolutely right. There are some issues around the training, there
:41:33. > :41:38.are some issues in the way it's implemented. I think you used the
:41:39. > :41:40.word it's a "new" approach and people are overzealous some times in
:41:41. > :41:44.how they apply it and some people don't understand what they are
:41:45. > :41:49.doing. That is being dealt with, I assure you. In terms of the
:41:50. > :41:52.religious theology behind this, I'm a British Muslim, you don't love
:41:53. > :41:55.your... It's like having two children, you don't love your first
:41:56. > :41:58.child any less when you have a second. I'm absolutely delighted and
:41:59. > :42:03.proud to be born in this country and to live in this country and I was
:42:04. > :42:05.Chief Prosecutor, I didn't go out blowing people up or wanting to harm
:42:06. > :42:08.somebody so there's something else going on here. There are examples
:42:09. > :42:13.which the Home Secretary referred to. One guy on his way to Syria to
:42:14. > :42:18.join Isis, the last thing he wrote was a book called Islam for Dummies.
:42:19. > :42:22.He knew he needed something... That is the point. I get that but he
:42:23. > :42:29.needed something to get through the recruitment process. Religion wasn't
:42:30. > :42:32.what drove him. There was grievances, redemption, ego. How
:42:33. > :42:36.many of the people working for Isis suddenly become commanders of a
:42:37. > :42:40.platoon of two. They go there for all sorts of reasons. That's why we
:42:41. > :42:42.have to have an approach that isn't one-size-fits-all but that does work
:42:43. > :42:49.with the communities, absolutely. All right. A number of hands up. I
:42:50. > :42:55.want to take a question from Shelley Blackstone, please?
:42:56. > :43:02.Isn't it about time that anyone who is a suspected terrorist should be
:43:03. > :43:09.thrown out of the UK immediately? Amber Rudd? I think that's quite a
:43:10. > :43:13.difficult definition to have - anyone who is a suspected terrorist.
:43:14. > :43:17.As Sara said, you have got a situation where people are becoming
:43:18. > :43:19.radicalised, maybe having radical thoughts but it doesn't mean they
:43:20. > :43:25.have committed a crime. We have the rule of law, we have to make sure
:43:26. > :43:30.that we do it correctly. Don't think that we are not making
:43:31. > :43:34.sure, that we are keeping everybody protected. We have our strategy on
:43:35. > :43:38.Prevent which is controversial, as we have heard tonight, but I think
:43:39. > :43:42.stopping people becoming radicalised still. We have an Intelligence
:43:43. > :43:47.Service working close with the police delivering results. 18
:43:48. > :43:53.serious plots have been foiled since 2013. They do fantastic work to keep
:43:54. > :43:58.us safe. We will take action, of course, where we see that there are
:43:59. > :44:01.terrorist or potential terrorist conversations. The Intelligence
:44:02. > :44:06.Services are doing their jobs well in order to do this. Your answer is,
:44:07. > :44:10.you can't throw people out of the UK because they're a suspected
:44:11. > :44:14.terrorist, but you do say in your Conservative manifesto we are going
:44:15. > :44:18.to consider new criminal offences that might be created to defeat
:44:19. > :44:20.terrorism. What kind of new criminal offences are you going to consider
:44:21. > :44:24.creating? Well, it will depend what comes out
:44:25. > :44:27.of our various initiatives We're going to have a commission
:44:28. > :44:32.on extremism, to find out We want to tackle this in a way that
:44:33. > :44:39.I hope will engage the communities But terrorists, don't forget,
:44:40. > :44:43.also come from abroad, so we work internationally
:44:44. > :44:44.with other countries, with European partners,
:44:45. > :44:46.with other countries from further afield, particularly trying to spot
:44:47. > :44:48.any returning foreign fighters, to make sure they don't get
:44:49. > :44:51.into the country, as well as looking But British fighters who go abroad,
:44:52. > :44:55.you can't do anything about them Well, we have a lot of tools
:44:56. > :45:00.at our disposal to try and make sure that we stop them coming back
:45:01. > :45:02.where we can. But if they do come back,
:45:03. > :45:05.we have the evidence But on the point that you make,
:45:06. > :45:09.new criminal offences, from what I hear from you,
:45:10. > :45:12.you are not really thinking You are just saying
:45:13. > :45:16.you are going to consider it. No, we are thinking
:45:17. > :45:17.about new criminal offences. I can't be drawn on that
:45:18. > :45:22.at the moment, I'm afraid, David. Because you don't know
:45:23. > :45:24.the answer, or because... I just don't want to have
:45:25. > :45:27.that discussion here. It would be difficult
:45:28. > :45:30.to have right here. Sara Khan, what do you make
:45:31. > :45:35.of the point that we should be much rougher, tougher
:45:36. > :45:36.on suspected terrorists? I agree with the Home Secretary
:45:37. > :45:40.that when we are talking about suspected terrorists,
:45:41. > :45:42.the idea that we throw people like that out
:45:43. > :45:45.of our country is not the way Look, we have to stand
:45:46. > :45:51.for our values. That includes the rule of law,
:45:52. > :45:54.standing for human rights. I fundamentally believe
:45:55. > :45:56.that the best way we are going to win this battle against extremism
:45:57. > :45:59.is through the prism Already, we are seeing people
:46:00. > :46:04.who are being convicted. There have been around 269 people
:46:05. > :46:10.convicted between the period Also, we have to be very careful
:46:11. > :46:18.when we are saying this person We have to go through the rule
:46:19. > :46:22.of law, and I think that's I just can't get over
:46:23. > :46:32.what happened on Monday. And had anybody known
:46:33. > :46:34.that he was capable of what he was capable
:46:35. > :46:39.of doing, you know... I don't think there's a single
:46:40. > :46:43.person in this room who is not feeling what you're saying and does
:46:44. > :46:46.not have sympathy with But throwing them out is not the way
:46:47. > :46:50.of solving this problem. It's about dealing with having
:46:51. > :46:53.a multi pronged strategy. We can counter this in a much
:46:54. > :46:56.more effective manner. If you want to throw them anywhere,
:46:57. > :47:05.throw them into my Peace Centre and we will take as long as it takes
:47:06. > :47:09.to try and change the way We've got ample
:47:10. > :47:15.evidence we can do it. We reintegrate them into British
:47:16. > :47:20.society as best we can. We cannot abandon the rule
:47:21. > :47:22.of law and say, you are First of all, I would like to say
:47:23. > :47:36.that my thoughts and prayers are with the victims
:47:37. > :47:39.and their families. I'm a British Muslim and I'm very
:47:40. > :47:50.proud of my heritage. And there is an elephant
:47:51. > :47:57.in the room here. And unfortunately, it is very
:47:58. > :47:59.unfortunate, there is an issue with regards to radicalisation
:48:00. > :48:01.and extremism that does exist That is something
:48:02. > :48:10.that we have to accept. I would like to go back
:48:11. > :48:16.to what the gentleman over there was saying,
:48:17. > :48:18.when he referenced a mosque. Yes, we do have an issue
:48:19. > :48:20.within our mosques, We have children being taught the
:48:21. > :48:27.Wahhabi interpretation of the Koran. We have Saudi trained clerics
:48:28. > :48:29.coming in and speaking I would say, for now, temporarily,
:48:30. > :48:44.close down all Saudi- And I myself as a
:48:45. > :48:58.Muslim am a Muslim. Not only do we have our own
:48:59. > :49:01.home-grown terrorists, but terrorism is also being imported
:49:02. > :49:03.right under our noses. There are no Saudi funded
:49:04. > :49:13.mosques in the UK. There used to be money
:49:14. > :49:25.that was brought in from abroad but that has all stopped
:49:26. > :49:31.a long time ago. Are there no Wahhabi preachers
:49:32. > :49:33.and no Saudi money at all? There is a difference between Saudi
:49:34. > :49:39.money and Wahhabi preachers. Can you pick up the point of
:49:40. > :49:49.the Muslim woman who said you have to face the fact that there is a lot
:49:50. > :49:52.of language of, radical language I don't go to any meeting, for
:49:53. > :49:57.example, which is exclusively men. I ensure that if they invite me
:49:58. > :50:00.to a place of worship, We have to confront them
:50:01. > :50:06.when they are coming up with the kinds of things you have
:50:07. > :50:08.just identified yourself. Because that's how, sadly,
:50:09. > :50:10.this generates even more hate. How they generate difference
:50:11. > :50:12.as well, which is something that But at the same time,
:50:13. > :50:16.the communities themselves One of the things I'm doing
:50:17. > :50:24.is setting up a community Cobra, which is made up of not the usual
:50:25. > :50:27.suspects, but people perhaps like you, you might want to join,
:50:28. > :50:29.who are young, who understand the issues and work together to try
:50:30. > :50:32.and develop solutions. And I think that's
:50:33. > :50:38.what we need to do. There is a deficit in Muslim
:50:39. > :50:42.leadership in this country. The vast majority, the majority
:50:43. > :50:45.of Muslims are now under 25, female The leaders are male, over 50
:50:46. > :50:51.from middle-class backgrounds. Well, you stop talking,
:50:52. > :50:59.sadly, to people like me. You stop talking to the older
:51:00. > :51:01.generation, the people who claim The white community don't
:51:02. > :51:04.have community leaders. Why do we suddenly assume that
:51:05. > :51:07.minorities have community leaders? We start talking to
:51:08. > :51:12.people in students land. We get them into the room
:51:13. > :51:15.and talk to them about how Let me have one quick
:51:16. > :51:25.question from Assad Riaz, and then I want to go back
:51:26. > :51:28.to the other point. To what extent have the leaked
:51:29. > :51:41.security details jeopardised our I want to put this to you,
:51:42. > :51:45.Amber Rudd, and also to what extent it may have jeopardised
:51:46. > :51:47.the police investigations here. I took it up with Secretary Kelly
:51:48. > :51:51.and the Attorney General and made very clear that they needed to sort
:51:52. > :51:54.the situation out. The Prime Minister has spoken
:51:55. > :51:57.to President Trump today and he has I understand today that the head
:51:58. > :52:02.of counterterrorism has said that I don't believe it has
:52:03. > :52:09.damaged the investigation, In the short term,
:52:10. > :52:17.what was so upsetting about it was that it must have been
:52:18. > :52:21.such a terrible thing for the families to see, when this
:52:22. > :52:24.was a well-run investigation. Actually, our newspapers had
:52:25. > :52:26.behaved well in terms of working with investigators,
:52:27. > :52:27.not releasing information So I think it was very hard
:52:28. > :52:32.on the families but I hope From the minute the attack happened,
:52:33. > :52:37.information was beginning I raised it with the US ambassador
:52:38. > :52:42.earlier in the week and said, The lead investigator has to control
:52:43. > :52:46.the release of information, the British police,
:52:47. > :52:52.because otherwise you can I said that and then
:52:53. > :52:55.it happened again. Families were in a hotel
:52:56. > :52:58.in Manchester, not even able to go to the scene,
:52:59. > :53:01.and yet there were pictures It's absolutely outrageous
:53:02. > :53:04.what has happened this week. It is arrogant of the Americans,
:53:05. > :53:09.and it is disrespectful Most importantly, the families
:53:10. > :53:14.of those who died and It's my job to speak up for
:53:15. > :53:20.the people of Greater Manchester. Well, I think at this stage,
:53:21. > :53:24.the damage is manageable I don't think there has
:53:25. > :53:32.been any serious damage. But there is an important
:53:33. > :53:34.point of principle here. I don't want a diplomatic row,
:53:35. > :53:37.but this cannot happen again, and we need to make
:53:38. > :53:39.that absolutely clear. I want to end with a question
:53:40. > :53:44.from Irfan Munir, please. My eight-year-old English daughter
:53:45. > :53:46.asked me why her friends What can be done to stop
:53:47. > :53:51.hate towards Muslims? That happened yesterday,
:53:52. > :53:56.and also the journey I had to explain
:53:57. > :54:02.to her what a bomb is. It was an absolutely horrendous
:54:03. > :54:11.journey into work this morning. Sara Khan, we only have a couple
:54:12. > :54:15.of minutes, but what can be done? It's absolutely horrendous
:54:16. > :54:18.that we hear this. Even the NSPCC and ChildLine
:54:19. > :54:21.and other organisations are picking up the fact that there are Muslim
:54:22. > :54:23.children experiencing this kind And for me this is part
:54:24. > :54:28.of a wider issue, really. It's about how we talk about
:54:29. > :54:31.British Muslims in this country. Trying to promote British Muslims
:54:32. > :54:36.as a homogenous community is not the right way of dealing
:54:37. > :54:38.with the situation. The fact of the matter
:54:39. > :54:41.is we have to recognise There is a positive trend among
:54:42. > :54:52.Muslims who are integrated, contributing to our country
:54:53. > :54:54.in all sorts of manners, serving in the Armed Forces,
:54:55. > :54:57.doctors, in the arts, But at the same time,
:54:58. > :55:00.we have to recognise that there is a negative trend
:55:01. > :55:12.amongst some British Muslims who oppose democracy,
:55:13. > :55:16.who despise different interpretations and pluralistic
:55:17. > :55:18.interpretations of the religion. We have to counter those negative
:55:19. > :55:21.people, because it's what you said, Because that counters and feeds
:55:22. > :55:28.that kind of narrative. We've got to show that it is not
:55:29. > :55:31.a homogenous Muslim community. The worry is that increasingly
:55:32. > :55:36.British people will think all Muslims are terrorists,
:55:37. > :55:38.because the hard-line people who print those leaflets
:55:39. > :55:40.that this chap mentioned, who are the very extreme end
:55:41. > :55:42.of the Muslim faith, are those who are discrediting
:55:43. > :55:45.the whole of the Muslim faith. The overwhelming majority of Muslim
:55:46. > :55:48.people are the same as the rest of us in this country,
:55:49. > :55:51.whatever our faith, good people. But your poor kid is going
:55:52. > :55:53.to get tagged with that. That's exactly what
:55:54. > :55:54.the bomber wants. Absolutely, what Colin
:55:55. > :56:02.said is right, this I am glad she was able to open up
:56:03. > :56:12.to you and you could Ultimately, as parents we need
:56:13. > :56:17.to talk to our children and that's I think part of the answer is to be
:56:18. > :56:22.careful with language. People talk about Muslim terrorism,
:56:23. > :56:24.or Islamic terrorism, and that suggests that this
:56:25. > :56:26.is the whole of the Muslim That is very dangerous,
:56:27. > :56:30.if you suggest that is the case. I think the BBC are wrong to say
:56:31. > :56:33.so-called Islamic State. They should call them Daesh,
:56:34. > :56:36.because don't give them the kind of impression that they represent
:56:37. > :56:38.the whole Muslim community. These people that are involved
:56:39. > :56:40.in this terrible act They should be described as such
:56:41. > :56:49.and they should not be described in a way that casts this kind
:56:50. > :56:52.of terrible sense of gloom and despair over
:56:53. > :56:55.the Muslim community. Colin Parry's absolutely right
:56:56. > :56:58.to say what he just said. These individuals do not represent
:56:59. > :57:00.the Muslim community in Greater Manchester,
:57:01. > :57:02.and that needs to be pointed out Your daughter had the confidence
:57:03. > :57:15.to report it to you. We need to make sure that everybody
:57:16. > :57:18.has the confidence to call out hate The first thing I did
:57:19. > :57:22.as Home Secretary was to publish Now, more than ever,
:57:23. > :57:25.we need to make sure that people have the confidence
:57:26. > :57:27.to report hate crime. And we will particularly engage
:57:28. > :57:30.with the schools to ensure that they have the ability
:57:31. > :57:32.and the information they need over this difficult period to engage
:57:33. > :57:38.with young people as well. Thank you very much,
:57:39. > :57:42.everybody, and I'm sorry to those of you have your hands up
:57:43. > :57:46.and have not been able to get in. Question Time is going to be
:57:47. > :57:53.in Barnet next week. Then we have leaders'
:57:54. > :57:55.specials, Theresa May and Jeremy Corbyn, one
:57:56. > :57:56.after the And Nicola Sturgeon and Tim Farron
:57:57. > :58:06.on Sunday 4th Jne in Edinburgh. And Nicola Sturgeon and Tim Farron
:58:07. > :58:09.on Sunday 4th June in Edinburgh. If you want to put questions
:58:10. > :58:13.to those leaders, details of how If you are listening on 5Live
:58:14. > :58:19.there's reaction to what's been said panellists who came here tonight,
:58:20. > :58:25.and particular thanks to all of you who came here to take
:58:26. > :58:27.part in this debate. From Salford, in Greater Manchester,
:58:28. > :58:32.and from Question until next