0:00:02 > 0:00:04It's one week until the election now and we are in Barnet.
0:00:04 > 0:00:06Welcome to Question Time.
0:00:14 > 0:00:16And on our panel here,
0:00:16 > 0:00:19the Conservative Brexit Secretary, David Davis,
0:00:19 > 0:00:23Labour's Shadow International Trade Secretary, Barry Gardiner,
0:00:23 > 0:00:25the former Deputy Prime Minister
0:00:25 > 0:00:29and former leader of the Liberal Democrats, Nick Clegg,
0:00:29 > 0:00:32Ukip's Deputy Chair, Suzanne Evans,
0:00:32 > 0:00:36and the Leader of the SNP in the House of Commons, Angus Robertson.
0:00:36 > 0:00:38APPLAUSE
0:00:51 > 0:00:53Thank you very much.
0:00:53 > 0:00:55Remember at home, in this febrile atmosphere
0:00:55 > 0:00:56of the last few days before the election,
0:00:56 > 0:00:58you can join in the debate.
0:00:58 > 0:01:02You've got Twitter, Facebook all at your disposal
0:01:02 > 0:01:04or you can text.
0:01:04 > 0:01:05If you push the red button,
0:01:05 > 0:01:07you can see what other people are saying on the screen.
0:01:07 > 0:01:12Our first question from Alla Hayes, please, Alla Hayes.
0:01:12 > 0:01:16If Theresa May can't debate, can she negotiate?
0:01:16 > 0:01:18CHUCKLING
0:01:18 > 0:01:20Nick Clegg.
0:01:20 > 0:01:23I think it was a great shame that she didn't participate
0:01:23 > 0:01:24in those debates.
0:01:24 > 0:01:27Having been a participant in a few of them in the past,
0:01:27 > 0:01:30I think they're something that people have got used to
0:01:30 > 0:01:33because they allow you, from the comfort of your living room,
0:01:33 > 0:01:35to look at the way in which
0:01:35 > 0:01:38different leaders of different parties measure up to each other
0:01:38 > 0:01:42and this sort of tendency to take a stand-offish,
0:01:42 > 0:01:46slightly haughty approach to these things is not the kind of demeanour
0:01:46 > 0:01:51you'd want when you're having to cajole and charm
0:01:51 > 0:01:56and persuade 27 other countries to see our point of view,
0:01:56 > 0:01:59which of course is the main and very difficult task facing
0:01:59 > 0:02:02whoever's in Number Ten from June 9th onwards.
0:02:02 > 0:02:05So I think it was a disservice to this election.
0:02:05 > 0:02:08I also don't think it's a great advertisement
0:02:08 > 0:02:11for the kind of skills needed for a complex negotiation.
0:02:16 > 0:02:19She is facing a Question Time audience tomorrow
0:02:19 > 0:02:22like this audience, which is never an easy ride.
0:02:22 > 0:02:25He's got his plug in, he's got his advertisement in.
0:02:25 > 0:02:27No, no, it's just she chose to do that.
0:02:27 > 0:02:29You can't force people to debate.
0:02:29 > 0:02:30No, no, you can't,
0:02:30 > 0:02:35but of course being questioned by you and by audiences like this
0:02:35 > 0:02:38of course is an absolutely integral part of our political culture,
0:02:38 > 0:02:40but debating between political leaders is also...
0:02:40 > 0:02:43And to say that she does it every Wednesday is a nonsense.
0:02:43 > 0:02:47I've sat through these appallingly pre-orchestrated lines
0:02:47 > 0:02:49that the Prime Minister and the Leader of the Opposition
0:02:49 > 0:02:54trade across the dispatch box for half an hour at midday on Wednesday.
0:02:54 > 0:02:56It's nothing like the spontaneous debate
0:02:56 > 0:02:59that I think people deserve at election time.
0:02:59 > 0:03:02- OK. Barry Gardiner? - She called the election.
0:03:02 > 0:03:05I think she should have done the British people the courtesy
0:03:05 > 0:03:08of turning up and arguing for her policies.
0:03:08 > 0:03:11APPLAUSE
0:03:15 > 0:03:20The point is that you can say, well, was it arrogance?
0:03:20 > 0:03:25Was it fear of being confronted in the way
0:03:25 > 0:03:29that she had been on Monday night and laughed at?
0:03:29 > 0:03:35I think that if you are the Prime Minister of this country
0:03:35 > 0:03:39and you have called an election, ostensibly, as you say,
0:03:39 > 0:03:42on the basis of Brexit because it's so important,
0:03:42 > 0:03:45despite the fact that seven times you've said you're not going
0:03:45 > 0:03:47to call it because Brexit is so important
0:03:47 > 0:03:49that you have to get on with the negotiations,
0:03:49 > 0:03:56then I do think that you have to show real mettle, turn up,
0:03:56 > 0:03:59take the flak and show that you're the person who can do that.
0:03:59 > 0:04:00But your leader...
0:04:00 > 0:04:03APPLAUSE
0:04:04 > 0:04:08Your leader didn't hotfoot it to the studio until the day before, did he?
0:04:08 > 0:04:11- There was no notice he was coming. - The same day!
0:04:11 > 0:04:14Absolutely, David, and the interesting thing is...
0:04:14 > 0:04:16So he was reluctant, too.
0:04:16 > 0:04:21In politics and in campaigns, there's policy, there's strategy...
0:04:21 > 0:04:23And there's mischief.
0:04:23 > 0:04:27And there's tactics and it was very clear
0:04:27 > 0:04:31that we put pressure on the Prime Minister to turn up
0:04:31 > 0:04:32and be prime ministerial.
0:04:32 > 0:04:34- She refused to do it. - Angus Robertson.
0:04:34 > 0:04:38Well, I was part of the debate last night and...
0:04:38 > 0:04:41APPLAUSE
0:04:41 > 0:04:46I turned up and I'm sorry the Prime Minister didn't
0:04:46 > 0:04:48and I think the first thing I'd like to say about it
0:04:48 > 0:04:51is we are living in the 21st century
0:04:51 > 0:04:54and a really big part of our politics
0:04:54 > 0:04:58and our national debate takes place through television
0:04:58 > 0:05:00and I agree with Nick.
0:05:00 > 0:05:03There are different formats in elections
0:05:03 > 0:05:05and it's good that there are programmes
0:05:05 > 0:05:07and they involve us
0:05:07 > 0:05:10and they involve other colleagues as well and that's fine,
0:05:10 > 0:05:13but what is absolutely normal in pretty much every democracy
0:05:13 > 0:05:16is that you see the party leaders debate one another
0:05:16 > 0:05:20and so far the only debate I've seen the Prime Minister involved in
0:05:20 > 0:05:23was sitting on a couch with her husband on The One Show.
0:05:23 > 0:05:26I mean, it's just... That is not serious.
0:05:26 > 0:05:29The Prime Minister should be tested by colleagues,
0:05:29 > 0:05:31she should have the confidence in her arguments
0:05:31 > 0:05:33and it leaves you with the thought,
0:05:33 > 0:05:36and that's perhaps what the question comes back to,
0:05:36 > 0:05:39what faith can we have, what trust can we have
0:05:39 > 0:05:42in her abilities to negotiate on our behalf,
0:05:42 > 0:05:44regardless of whether we voted Leave or Remain?
0:05:44 > 0:05:48This is going to be a huge challenge for whoever the Prime Minister is
0:05:48 > 0:05:51and they're not even prepared to turn up for a television debate.
0:05:51 > 0:05:54Whatever happened to "strong and stable"? Where did that go?
0:05:58 > 0:06:02Nicola Sturgeon, I didn't see her there, so you were sent instead.
0:06:02 > 0:06:05No, I'm the Westminster Leader of the SNP and I have the good fortune
0:06:05 > 0:06:07to ask the Prime Minister two questions every week.
0:06:07 > 0:06:10The Leader of the Labour Party has six questions and the idea
0:06:10 > 0:06:12that you go from having to face tough questions
0:06:12 > 0:06:16from your opponents in Parliament to an election campaign
0:06:16 > 0:06:19and suddenly you stop, I just think, "Come on, that's not serious."
0:06:19 > 0:06:20OK, the woman here in the front.
0:06:20 > 0:06:22The question being about whether she can negotiate
0:06:22 > 0:06:23as well as debating, yes.
0:06:23 > 0:06:25But the problem is we're now just in a debacle
0:06:25 > 0:06:27talking about why she wasn't there.
0:06:27 > 0:06:29We're not talking about politics any more
0:06:29 > 0:06:30and yesterday it was just an embarrassment
0:06:30 > 0:06:32to watch politicians talk as they did
0:06:32 > 0:06:34cos it wasn't so much a debate,
0:06:34 > 0:06:36it was how you can put each other down and shout over each other
0:06:36 > 0:06:38and it's just not helpful.
0:06:41 > 0:06:42And the woman behind you, yes.
0:06:42 > 0:06:45I want to see a woman of substance running this country.
0:06:45 > 0:06:47I don't want to see a soap star
0:06:47 > 0:06:50and how many brownie points they can score.
0:06:50 > 0:06:52I thought not being there didn't make that much of a difference.
0:06:52 > 0:06:56- Didn't make that much difference. You're for her?- I am.- Suzanne Evans.
0:06:56 > 0:06:59Well, "strong and stable" went all weak and wobbly, didn't it?
0:06:59 > 0:07:02She called this election, as Barry said.
0:07:02 > 0:07:04It's a failure of leadership for her not to show up.
0:07:04 > 0:07:07I think the problem is the Conservatives expected
0:07:07 > 0:07:08to breeze through this election.
0:07:08 > 0:07:11They expected to get a 200-seat majority.
0:07:11 > 0:07:14They put forward an ill-conceived, un-costed manifesto
0:07:14 > 0:07:17and then, suddenly, they made it all about Theresa May
0:07:17 > 0:07:20and then suddenly Theresa May starts to fall apart.
0:07:20 > 0:07:22And it was interesting watching her interview on Monday night,
0:07:22 > 0:07:23the debate that she did
0:07:23 > 0:07:25and the interview she did with Jeremy Paxman,
0:07:25 > 0:07:29and I think then we saw actually why she was going to pull out
0:07:29 > 0:07:32of this debate because it's clearly not her forte at all.
0:07:32 > 0:07:35But that said, I have to say, talking about negotiation,
0:07:35 > 0:07:37I think she also didn't...
0:07:37 > 0:07:40She wouldn't state in that interview with Jeremy Paxman
0:07:40 > 0:07:42that she believed in Brexit.
0:07:42 > 0:07:43She couldn't say,
0:07:43 > 0:07:46she was really pushed to have to say she'd walk away from a bad deal
0:07:46 > 0:07:47and she admitted straight up
0:07:47 > 0:07:49that we'd have to pay the EU something to leave.
0:07:49 > 0:07:51All of those things, I think, are completely wrong.
0:07:51 > 0:07:55- All right. You, sir.- I'd agree with a lot of what was just said.
0:07:55 > 0:07:57I think it's completely stupid tactics.
0:07:57 > 0:08:00It's shooting yourself in the foot for Amber Rudd
0:08:00 > 0:08:01to have come on the debate yesterday
0:08:01 > 0:08:03and then to have started her opening statement
0:08:03 > 0:08:05by saying, "The election's all about leadership,"
0:08:05 > 0:08:08and, "Do you want Theresa May or do you want Jeremy Corbyn,"
0:08:08 > 0:08:11when Theresa May wasn't even in the debate! I think it's completely...
0:08:11 > 0:08:14It's the wrong tactics for the Conservatives to employ -
0:08:14 > 0:08:16to make the election about leadership
0:08:16 > 0:08:18when your leader isn't even at the debate!
0:08:18 > 0:08:23Well, David Davis... APPLAUSE
0:08:23 > 0:08:25David Davis is the Secretary of State for Brexit
0:08:25 > 0:08:27so he can answer both parts of the question.
0:08:27 > 0:08:29If Theresa May can't debate, can she negotiate?
0:08:29 > 0:08:31Well, let's start with the "can't debate" bit first.
0:08:31 > 0:08:35Nick dismisses the Wednesday exchange that takes place
0:08:35 > 0:08:37between her and all the Leaders of the Opposition
0:08:37 > 0:08:40in which basically - forgive me, Angus -
0:08:40 > 0:08:42she wipes the floor with all of them and has done
0:08:42 > 0:08:45for nine or ten months so I don't think, really,
0:08:45 > 0:08:47being afraid of them is the issue.
0:08:47 > 0:08:49And it wasn't just in that.
0:08:49 > 0:08:53Even the very first week she was Prime Minister,
0:08:53 > 0:08:57she took the Trident debate and was formidable in that.
0:08:57 > 0:09:01So look back, if you're interested in her debating skills,
0:09:01 > 0:09:04but general elections are more than just about television
0:09:04 > 0:09:08and of course television gets very obsessed about TV debates.
0:09:08 > 0:09:11I did a programme with Corbyn on Monday and she's doing one
0:09:11 > 0:09:14with you tomorrow and she will be challenged in those,
0:09:14 > 0:09:16I'm sure, but it's also about other things.
0:09:16 > 0:09:20She's done about 5,500 miles around the country, 59 meetings,
0:09:20 > 0:09:23four times as many questions from journalists as Mr Corbyn has faced
0:09:23 > 0:09:26so it's hardly walking away from that.
0:09:26 > 0:09:28And as for the debating...
0:09:28 > 0:09:31Sorry, as for the negotiating,
0:09:31 > 0:09:37I've seen her at work with the European Union leaders,
0:09:37 > 0:09:41the European Commission, in particular, and she is formidable.
0:09:41 > 0:09:45When we negotiated the outcome
0:09:45 > 0:09:47of what's called the Justice and Home Affairs...
0:09:47 > 0:09:48When she was Home Secretary,
0:09:48 > 0:09:51she had to deal with the Justice and Home Affairs brief in Europe -
0:09:51 > 0:09:57she negotiated us out of 100 out of 135 aspects of the treaty
0:09:57 > 0:09:59because that was important to the British interest
0:09:59 > 0:10:02and she did it very effectively so the answer to the question
0:10:02 > 0:10:06is she can both debate and she can negotiate, as you're going to see,
0:10:06 > 0:10:11assuming we get the result we want next week, in the next two years.
0:10:13 > 0:10:15I'm going to keep moving cos we've got a lot of questions.
0:10:15 > 0:10:19We're talking about Brexit so let's go to Brexit straight away
0:10:19 > 0:10:21and remember what Theresa May has been saying through this,
0:10:21 > 0:10:24it's better no deal than a bad deal.
0:10:24 > 0:10:26Margaret Miller, your question, please.
0:10:26 > 0:10:31What does a bad Brexit deal for the UK look like to you?
0:10:31 > 0:10:32This goes to the heart of the thing.
0:10:32 > 0:10:37What would a bad Brexit deal for the UK look like? To you, Suzanne Evans?
0:10:37 > 0:10:39Well, in our manifesto, which I have here,
0:10:39 > 0:10:43Ukip set out six Brexit tests which we say have to be met
0:10:43 > 0:10:46in order to get the Brexit that the people of Great Britain voted for.
0:10:46 > 0:10:48And, first of all, that's the legal test.
0:10:48 > 0:10:52It means that Parliament's got to resume its supremacy of law-making.
0:10:52 > 0:10:54It means we're completely free of the European courts.
0:10:54 > 0:10:57The migration test - we've got to have full control
0:10:57 > 0:11:00of our borders back and control of immigration and asylum.
0:11:00 > 0:11:03The maritime test - we've got to take back full control
0:11:03 > 0:11:06of our fishing waters and the rights that our fishermen have
0:11:06 > 0:11:07under international law.
0:11:07 > 0:11:09Trade - we need to have our seat back
0:11:09 > 0:11:11on the World Trade Organisation.
0:11:11 > 0:11:13We've got to be out of the single market,
0:11:13 > 0:11:16out of the customs union and critically, also, I don't think
0:11:16 > 0:11:19we should be paying any money to the European Union to leave.
0:11:19 > 0:11:23We've got about £9 billion vested in the European Investment Bank.
0:11:23 > 0:11:27We have contributed for decades to this organisation
0:11:27 > 0:11:29and they have the cheek to say that they want money back?
0:11:29 > 0:11:32We put in a lot more than many, many other countries.
0:11:32 > 0:11:33And the other thing,
0:11:33 > 0:11:37that we think it should all be done and dusted by the end of 2019,
0:11:37 > 0:11:40although I have to say if it went to the 1st of January 2020,
0:11:40 > 0:11:41I wouldn't be too upset.
0:11:41 > 0:11:43OK, so that's your shopping list. Nick Clegg.
0:11:43 > 0:11:46APPLAUSE
0:11:46 > 0:11:47I think the...
0:11:47 > 0:11:49What would a deal, in Theresa May's words,
0:11:49 > 0:11:54that would be better not to have one at all? What would a bad deal be?
0:11:54 > 0:11:55I'm not entirely clear,
0:11:55 > 0:11:58nor I think is the Government because an absence of a deal
0:11:58 > 0:12:01is a very bad outcome itself because it consigns us
0:12:01 > 0:12:06to a sort of legal and economic vacuum, really,
0:12:06 > 0:12:07where all the relationships we've built up
0:12:07 > 0:12:09over 40 years collapse overnight.
0:12:09 > 0:12:11I think it'd be a very bad outcome indeed
0:12:11 > 0:12:13and it should be avoided at all costs.
0:12:13 > 0:12:16But I think, for me, the acid test is what kind of deal
0:12:16 > 0:12:21serves our economy the most - jobs, money in people's pockets,
0:12:21 > 0:12:24the economic opportunities for our kids and our grandchildren.
0:12:24 > 0:12:27Here is the fundamental dilemma.
0:12:27 > 0:12:30It is this - there is no deal I can conceive of
0:12:30 > 0:12:33which gives us as much economic benefit
0:12:33 > 0:12:36as the one in which we are now presently located,
0:12:36 > 0:12:39in the heart of the single market created by Margaret Thatcher
0:12:39 > 0:12:41and others many years ago.
0:12:41 > 0:12:44It's the most sophisticated open market of its kind,
0:12:44 > 0:12:47not just tariff-free, but also rule-free.
0:12:47 > 0:12:49Everyone abides by the same kind of rule book
0:12:49 > 0:12:52so we're in this extraordinary situation where almost any outcome
0:12:52 > 0:12:54that David Davis and Theresa May come up with
0:12:54 > 0:12:58will involve less trade and therefore less wealth
0:12:58 > 0:13:01and less prosperity than that we have at the moment.
0:13:01 > 0:13:02That is beyond dispute.
0:13:02 > 0:13:03There is no version,
0:13:03 > 0:13:06no deal at all which leads to more trade
0:13:06 > 0:13:10and this idea that you can replace the trade you lose
0:13:10 > 0:13:13on your own doorstep with trade deals
0:13:13 > 0:13:16with countries in far-flung locations is a complete illusion.
0:13:16 > 0:13:18- Why?- Because they're far away and geography counts.
0:13:18 > 0:13:20"They're far away", "geography counts" - my goodness!
0:13:20 > 0:13:23Are we not trading with America, with China, with India?
0:13:23 > 0:13:24We are, but much less so.
0:13:24 > 0:13:27We can do more with that with a free trade deal.
0:13:27 > 0:13:29Hang on, there's a reason why we trade with Ireland
0:13:29 > 0:13:30more than we do with China,
0:13:30 > 0:13:32twice as much with Belgium than we do with India,
0:13:32 > 0:13:36three times as much with Sweden than we do with Brazil. Why?
0:13:36 > 0:13:40Because we're close to our closest economic export markets.
0:13:40 > 0:13:43So my great worry is we're going to have months and months
0:13:43 > 0:13:45and months of arguments about this.
0:13:45 > 0:13:47The thing you need to look out for -
0:13:47 > 0:13:50is any deal giving us as much trade to our largest export markets
0:13:50 > 0:13:52as we have at the moment?
0:13:52 > 0:13:55And I simply don't see any way in which any deal can provide us
0:13:55 > 0:13:58with as much economic benefit as the trading relationships
0:13:58 > 0:14:00we have at the moment in the single market.
0:14:00 > 0:14:01But you...
0:14:01 > 0:14:04APPLAUSE
0:14:04 > 0:14:07So any deal is a bad deal,
0:14:07 > 0:14:10but you know that the vote went in favour of leaving
0:14:10 > 0:14:12so you're on the horns of a dilemma.
0:14:12 > 0:14:16No, absolutely, absolutely. So it is minimising the damage.
0:14:16 > 0:14:18People from my point of view - and, by the way,
0:14:18 > 0:14:21this is the way it's widely seen in other European capitals,
0:14:21 > 0:14:25I speak to many politicians in other European capitals -
0:14:25 > 0:14:28they see it much more realistically than many Brexiteers do.
0:14:28 > 0:14:31They say, "This is bad for us, it's bad for you.
0:14:31 > 0:14:33"We will try and minimise the damage,"
0:14:33 > 0:14:35but that, bluntly, is what this exercise is now about.
0:14:35 > 0:14:38- David Davis.- Can I start... I want to answer the question,
0:14:38 > 0:14:41but can I just start by dealing with the point Nick has made?
0:14:41 > 0:14:43Cos it's just fundamentally wrong.
0:14:43 > 0:14:49In 1999, 60% of our trade was with Europe
0:14:49 > 0:14:52and 40% with the rest of the world.
0:14:52 > 0:14:56Now, it's roughly 42% with Europe and 58% with the rest of the world
0:14:56 > 0:14:59so, A - its bigger in total,
0:14:59 > 0:15:02B - it's growing a devil of a lot faster
0:15:02 > 0:15:05so the idea that enabling more access
0:15:05 > 0:15:08to that market, no matter how distant it is
0:15:08 > 0:15:10because "the death of distance" is the phrase used
0:15:10 > 0:15:13about the way trade is developing now,
0:15:13 > 0:15:17means that there is a huge prize to be won,
0:15:17 > 0:15:21a huge prize to be won in enhancing our trade
0:15:21 > 0:15:23with the rest of the world whilst, as far as we can,
0:15:23 > 0:15:26continuing frictionless free trade with Europe
0:15:26 > 0:15:28and that is what we all say we are trying
0:15:28 > 0:15:30on both sides of the negotiating table there.
0:15:30 > 0:15:33But to do that, to achieve that,
0:15:33 > 0:15:38to deliver a good deal for Britain, you've got to believe in Britain.
0:15:38 > 0:15:41You've got to believe that we can actually do this,
0:15:41 > 0:15:43that the English language, our institutions,
0:15:43 > 0:15:45our commercial skills and so on are up to it
0:15:45 > 0:15:47and we do believe that
0:15:47 > 0:15:49and that's something Theresa May does believe.
0:15:49 > 0:15:50Now, what's a bad deal?
0:15:50 > 0:15:52Well, the first thing to say is that we had
0:15:52 > 0:15:56a referendum last year and a bad deal is what doesn't deliver
0:15:56 > 0:15:59on what the referendum asked for and, broadly speaking,
0:15:59 > 0:16:04if you talk to people who voted to leave in the referendum,
0:16:04 > 0:16:08what they say is they voted to get back control of borders,
0:16:08 > 0:16:10laws and money and that's the fundamentals
0:16:10 > 0:16:13so if you don't achieve that, first off, that's a bad deal.
0:16:13 > 0:16:15If you want another measure of a bad deal,
0:16:15 > 0:16:17look at the sorts of things that have come out
0:16:17 > 0:16:21of the European Commission in the last month or so
0:16:21 > 0:16:25in terms of their ever-growing bid, you know, £100 billion here,
0:16:25 > 0:16:31ECJ control over European citizens within the UK, not elsewhere,
0:16:31 > 0:16:34a refusal to accept our control of our borders,
0:16:34 > 0:16:37being inside the customs union still
0:16:37 > 0:16:40and unable to do the deal with the rest of the world.
0:16:40 > 0:16:43Having oversight of our tax is one of the things they have asked for,
0:16:43 > 0:16:46oversight of our labour laws and so on -
0:16:46 > 0:16:49these together would all add up to a bad deal
0:16:49 > 0:16:52and the problem that the Labour Party has with this
0:16:52 > 0:16:55is that if it's not willing to walk away,
0:16:55 > 0:16:58that is precisely what it will get -
0:16:58 > 0:17:00a very bad deal indeed.
0:17:00 > 0:17:03APPLAUSE
0:17:04 > 0:17:05I'll come to you all in a moment.
0:17:05 > 0:17:09Let's just hear Barry Gardiner on that. Keep your hands up.
0:17:09 > 0:17:17David is absolutely wrong because you do not pursue free trade
0:17:17 > 0:17:23in the world by leaving the largest free trade bloc in the world,
0:17:23 > 0:17:25which is the European Union.
0:17:25 > 0:17:30That is a nonsense and if you look at what's happening here,
0:17:30 > 0:17:33this is the first time that any group of countries
0:17:33 > 0:17:38have actually been negotiating not to reduce the barriers to trade
0:17:38 > 0:17:42between themselves, but to increase those barriers.
0:17:42 > 0:17:45Now, we've chosen to do that and I respect the decision to do that
0:17:45 > 0:17:49and the Labour Party will leave the European Union.
0:17:49 > 0:17:54That is clear because we respect the democratic mandate of the people.
0:17:54 > 0:17:58But be clear equally that when we do,
0:17:58 > 0:18:01what we will be doing is doing it for political reasons,
0:18:01 > 0:18:03not for economic reasons,
0:18:03 > 0:18:06and therefore all the things that David talked about
0:18:06 > 0:18:08that are really precious to him
0:18:08 > 0:18:11and many people in the Conservative Party
0:18:11 > 0:18:14about getting rid of the controls of Europe,
0:18:14 > 0:18:18getting ride of the European courts being able to rule in our country -
0:18:18 > 0:18:20let's take some good examples.
0:18:20 > 0:18:21Just a week or so ago,
0:18:21 > 0:18:25the Government was taken to the Supreme Court,
0:18:25 > 0:18:27actually the High Court, a few weeks ago.
0:18:27 > 0:18:29Before that, it was the Supreme Court
0:18:29 > 0:18:31because this Government refuses
0:18:31 > 0:18:34to obey the directive on air pollution
0:18:34 > 0:18:40to eliminate air pollution in this country and time and time again,
0:18:40 > 0:18:42it's been taken to the Supreme Court
0:18:42 > 0:18:46in this country, the UK Supreme Court, and it's been found wanting.
0:18:46 > 0:18:50Now, under Europe, we have some protections there.
0:18:50 > 0:18:53There can be infraction proceedings brought against the country.
0:18:53 > 0:18:55But there are not those protections
0:18:55 > 0:18:59once David has got his way and therefore we have to understand...
0:18:59 > 0:19:02Sorry, I don't want to stop you in full flow on that,
0:19:02 > 0:19:04but I want to go back to something you said just a moment ago.
0:19:04 > 0:19:08You said, "Therefore we're negotiating for political reasons,"
0:19:08 > 0:19:12the implication being that you think that economically, for the welfare,
0:19:12 > 0:19:18for the wellbeing, prosperity, jobs in UK, leaving will be bad.
0:19:18 > 0:19:20That's your starting position?
0:19:20 > 0:19:22Exactly what Nick said earlier
0:19:22 > 0:19:27is that there will be less trade with Europe.
0:19:27 > 0:19:29There will be more barriers to trade with Europe.
0:19:29 > 0:19:32Will we be a poorer country? Is your position we'll be poorer?
0:19:32 > 0:19:37Absolutely. 44% of our exports at the moment go to the European Union
0:19:37 > 0:19:42and they go tariff-free. Ask our farmers. They would have to...
0:19:42 > 0:19:48If we go on to WTO rules, which is the "no deal" scenario, it's a deal.
0:19:48 > 0:19:51It's just a different situation.
0:19:51 > 0:19:53But if we go to WTO rules,
0:19:53 > 0:19:59our sheep farmers will pay 44% tariffs to export into Europe,
0:19:59 > 0:20:02but they're paying 10% tariffs for wheat products into Europe.
0:20:02 > 0:20:04How are you going to negotiate it?
0:20:04 > 0:20:06If you're a negotiator and you start out assuming failure,
0:20:06 > 0:20:09- how much success...?- It's not about... No, no, no.
0:20:09 > 0:20:10APPLAUSE
0:20:10 > 0:20:12Absolutely not. It's...
0:20:12 > 0:20:15And you know this. It's not assuming failure.
0:20:15 > 0:20:19Failure is to go on to WTO rules, and that is
0:20:19 > 0:20:22the trick that you are playing on the British public.
0:20:22 > 0:20:25The confidence trick the Tories are playing is that they are
0:20:25 > 0:20:29saying that no deal is actually quite a good deal. It's not.
0:20:29 > 0:20:31It's the worst.
0:20:31 > 0:20:33APPLAUSE
0:20:35 > 0:20:36Angus Robertson.
0:20:37 > 0:20:40Well, the first thing I'd like to say is I totally respect and
0:20:40 > 0:20:42understand that south of the border,
0:20:42 > 0:20:46people voted to leave the European union, I respect that.
0:20:46 > 0:20:49And I hope that people respect that we in Scotland voted to stay...
0:20:49 > 0:20:51- AUDIENCE MEMBER:- And London.- ..and the people... I hear...
0:20:51 > 0:20:53There's some heckling, some friendly heckling,
0:20:53 > 0:20:56people reminding me that the good people of London voted to stay.
0:20:56 > 0:20:59Thank you. Thank you for that helpful intervention.
0:21:02 > 0:21:04The people of London,
0:21:04 > 0:21:06the people of Scotland and the people of Northern Ireland
0:21:06 > 0:21:07voted to stay.
0:21:07 > 0:21:10So my starting point in this is that I think
0:21:10 > 0:21:14a bad Brexit deal is one where the UK Government doesn't try at
0:21:14 > 0:21:18least to take account of the different views,
0:21:18 > 0:21:22the different hopes and aspirations and the different parts of the UK.
0:21:22 > 0:21:25And the Scottish Government has worked very hard,
0:21:25 > 0:21:28put a compromise deal on the table.
0:21:28 > 0:21:30There was a promise, of course, from the UK Government that
0:21:30 > 0:21:33Article 50 would not be triggered without an agreement,
0:21:33 > 0:21:37an agreement involving the devolved administrations,
0:21:37 > 0:21:40which was then totally ignored. So there's no agreement.
0:21:41 > 0:21:43So what is a bad deal?
0:21:43 > 0:21:45Right, let's not talk about Scotland for a second,
0:21:45 > 0:21:46let's talk about Ireland.
0:21:46 > 0:21:52Having no deal means a hard border between the United Kingdom
0:21:52 > 0:21:54and the Irish Republic.
0:21:54 > 0:21:57Now, there are some people in this audience who are too young to
0:21:57 > 0:22:02remember what having border posts meant in Ireland.
0:22:02 > 0:22:06That is something that everybody, no matter where we come from,
0:22:06 > 0:22:07should be very, very concerned about.
0:22:07 > 0:22:10Now, already, we have political parties in Northern Ireland
0:22:10 > 0:22:14saying they want a border poll. In Scotland,
0:22:14 > 0:22:17the Scottish Government was elected last year with a mandate that
0:22:17 > 0:22:21there should be a referendum at the end of the Brexit negotiations
0:22:21 > 0:22:24and we should have a choice on our future, not have it imposed on us.
0:22:24 > 0:22:28So my point is a really simple one. To David and his colleagues,
0:22:28 > 0:22:32if he is serious about wanting to say that they care about the
0:22:32 > 0:22:35views of the different nations and regions in the UK,
0:22:35 > 0:22:37they better start acting on it,
0:22:37 > 0:22:39because otherwise it will be seen for what it is,
0:22:39 > 0:22:43a total hollow promise, and the consequences of it,
0:22:43 > 0:22:45as we head towards a hard Brexit,
0:22:45 > 0:22:48is, frankly, that Scotland and Northern Ireland will be
0:22:48 > 0:22:50making decisions about how can we protect our place in the
0:22:50 > 0:22:53single European market, because it really, really
0:22:53 > 0:22:55matters to industry and jobs.
0:22:55 > 0:22:57Just briefly, what's to be done if...
0:22:57 > 0:23:00APPLAUSE
0:23:00 > 0:23:05If the rest of the EU is hostile, as one does hear, they may well be,
0:23:05 > 0:23:08to the idea of Britain leaving, you accept the referendum.
0:23:08 > 0:23:10What advice are you giving David Davis, I don't understand?
0:23:10 > 0:23:12This is the real mystery to me.
0:23:12 > 0:23:16I cannot understand why a Unionist government, a Unionist government
0:23:16 > 0:23:19wouldn't say, "We have real problems with the SNP and your vision
0:23:19 > 0:23:21"of independence, we don't support all of that,
0:23:21 > 0:23:24"but do you know what, we are going to go into these negotiations
0:23:24 > 0:23:28"and we'll try, because we think having a good relationship
0:23:28 > 0:23:31"with Scotland, with Northern Ireland really matters.
0:23:31 > 0:23:33"Now, we can't guarantee success,
0:23:33 > 0:23:35"we're not sure we can secure a place in the single market,
0:23:35 > 0:23:36"but we'll try."
0:23:36 > 0:23:39The problem is, you don't care enough to even try, David.
0:23:39 > 0:23:41You're not bothered. You're not bothered.
0:23:41 > 0:23:44OK, just briefly, do we know what you're going to do?
0:23:44 > 0:23:46We want to go to the audience, because there's a lot of hands up.
0:23:46 > 0:23:48- Well, let me just... - Are you not bothered about..?
0:23:48 > 0:23:51- Yes, of course we are. - What are you going to do?
0:23:51 > 0:23:53Well, the first thing we're going to do is...
0:23:53 > 0:23:56I'm going to say, the audience recognise something which is
0:23:56 > 0:23:59this, that the Scottish National Party, throughout this entire
0:23:59 > 0:24:02process, has had one thing at the front of its mind.
0:24:02 > 0:24:05Trying to get another referendum on independence. Full stop.
0:24:05 > 0:24:06APPLAUSE
0:24:06 > 0:24:08And that's driven everything.
0:24:08 > 0:24:10I have chaired a number of meetings,
0:24:10 > 0:24:13the Prime Minister chaired others, which were attended by
0:24:13 > 0:24:15the members of the Scottish Government, members of the
0:24:15 > 0:24:17Northern Ireland Executive, when it existed,
0:24:17 > 0:24:21and then delegates after that,
0:24:21 > 0:24:24and members of the Welsh government.
0:24:24 > 0:24:30And I have to say, the one group that was most at odds with
0:24:30 > 0:24:36the entire process was the Scottish Nationalist Party. Now, we'd...
0:24:36 > 0:24:40Sorry. David, you're getting into tit for tat stuff.
0:24:40 > 0:24:44What he asked was what you're going to do to protect Scottish interests.
0:24:44 > 0:24:47- Can you answer that?- We did 50, 60, I think,
0:24:47 > 0:24:51sectoral analyses of every single industry in
0:24:51 > 0:24:54Scotland, Wales, Northern Ireland, England,
0:24:54 > 0:24:57and looked at the best way of protecting them.
0:24:57 > 0:25:00Now, we have to deliver on the requirement of the referendum,
0:25:00 > 0:25:02which is control of our borders, control of our laws,
0:25:02 > 0:25:04control our money. The only way we can do that...
0:25:04 > 0:25:06We can't do that inside the single market,
0:25:06 > 0:25:08that will not be acceptable to the European Union.
0:25:08 > 0:25:13So we looked for the alternative to protect, as far as is possible,
0:25:13 > 0:25:15indeed 100% protection if we could manage it,
0:25:15 > 0:25:18and that is a free-trade area with a customs agreement.
0:25:18 > 0:25:22That is designed to get the most frictionless free trade,
0:25:22 > 0:25:25tariff-free trade between ourselves and the European Union.
0:25:25 > 0:25:29And that, if it works, would deliver both the benefits of being in
0:25:29 > 0:25:31- and the benefits of being out. - OK.
0:25:31 > 0:25:32APPLAUSE
0:25:32 > 0:25:36I want to go to members of the audience. You, madam, here.
0:25:36 > 0:25:41I voted in the... Whether we should join the common market,
0:25:41 > 0:25:45and what I voted for was a common market.
0:25:45 > 0:25:48I did not vote to be ruled by Europe or to have
0:25:48 > 0:25:52a court in Europe that could overrule the British court.
0:25:52 > 0:25:54APPLAUSE
0:25:56 > 0:25:58For you, what would a bad deal...?
0:25:58 > 0:26:01Are you worried about the deal for the UK? What would a bad deal be?
0:26:01 > 0:26:02No, I'm not.
0:26:02 > 0:26:07I think that Theresa May will take us to a deal that is fair.
0:26:07 > 0:26:10You've got... If you go into any clothing shop,
0:26:10 > 0:26:12any woman's clothing shop,
0:26:12 > 0:26:15you've got goods from all over the world.
0:26:15 > 0:26:17If you travel and you go to China,
0:26:17 > 0:26:23you will find Marks & Spencer and other places from Great Britain.
0:26:23 > 0:26:26- And I don't think that's going to change at all.- OK.
0:26:26 > 0:26:28You, sir, in the fourth row.
0:26:29 > 0:26:32Now you realise that immigration has destroyed the country,
0:26:32 > 0:26:35why don't you look back ten, 15 years ago,
0:26:35 > 0:26:39those applicants that came from India, Pakistan, all Asian
0:26:39 > 0:26:42states, re-interview them, give them literacy or numeracy tests?
0:26:42 > 0:26:45Clearly to me, they went to a bogus college,
0:26:45 > 0:26:48that's why the whole north of the UK is full of my community,
0:26:48 > 0:26:50everywhere, migration has messed up your country because they've
0:26:50 > 0:26:54got that indefinite stay. This is not England any more.
0:26:54 > 0:26:57What country are we in? There's hardly any your colour faces
0:26:57 > 0:26:58any more in this country.
0:26:58 > 0:27:03Especially, crime has really upset you, blame them in power,
0:27:03 > 0:27:04now you realised it.
0:27:04 > 0:27:07So why don't you once again re-interview these students,
0:27:07 > 0:27:10give them literacy or numeracy tests to resit.
0:27:10 > 0:27:12If they fail a test, it will clearly mean they went to
0:27:12 > 0:27:15a bogus college yesterday and those colleges lie on their behalf.
0:27:15 > 0:27:18So you want actually to start expelling people from the UK?
0:27:18 > 0:27:20Well, that's it, it is going to have to.
0:27:20 > 0:27:22Because accidentally you've let in these people
0:27:22 > 0:27:25coming in from the non-EU, now they've got...
0:27:25 > 0:27:27GROANS FROM AUDIENCE
0:27:29 > 0:27:32Suzanne Evans, do you want to answer his point? Do you agree with him?
0:27:32 > 0:27:35Well, I mean, let's be clear,
0:27:35 > 0:27:37migration brings a lot of good to this country.
0:27:37 > 0:27:39- Hear, hear.- But the thing is...
0:27:39 > 0:27:40APPLAUSE
0:27:44 > 0:27:47And I'm certainly not going to start wanting to kick anybody out
0:27:47 > 0:27:50of the country, I think that's grossly unfair.
0:27:50 > 0:27:52Particularly not EU nationals, and in fact,
0:27:52 > 0:27:55Ukip made it clear back in our 2015 general election manifesto
0:27:55 > 0:27:59that if we got an EU referendum, we would certainly give EU nationals
0:27:59 > 0:28:01who are already here the right to remain.
0:28:01 > 0:28:03And we stand by that.
0:28:03 > 0:28:06But, you know, there is a question, I think, for new migrants,
0:28:06 > 0:28:08once we've left the European Union.
0:28:08 > 0:28:11I think we do need to exercise much more control over who we come.
0:28:11 > 0:28:14And yes, I agree certainly that one of those things might well be
0:28:14 > 0:28:15people who can speak English.
0:28:15 > 0:28:17All right. The woman there in the back row.
0:28:17 > 0:28:19- Yes.- It's a bad deal.
0:28:19 > 0:28:24A bad deal is the Tory party boasting that people voted to
0:28:24 > 0:28:27leave when it was by 4%.
0:28:27 > 0:28:31Cameron should have made a deal that there had to be at
0:28:31 > 0:28:35least 10% before we left, because people didn't know
0:28:35 > 0:28:38what they were voting for, and now we are in this...
0:28:38 > 0:28:40APPLAUSE
0:28:44 > 0:28:47Of course, it is now said that people who voted to remain
0:28:47 > 0:28:48have accepted the result,
0:28:48 > 0:28:52and only a small proportion stick with the idea.
0:28:52 > 0:28:56- 69% of people now want to leave...- OK, Barry Gardiner.
0:28:56 > 0:28:57Want to leave.
0:28:57 > 0:29:01I wanted to come back to Margaret's question, because she asked,
0:29:01 > 0:29:05"What does a bad deal look like?" And I think a bad deal
0:29:05 > 0:29:10is one where we have an increase in the tariff and nontariff barriers.
0:29:10 > 0:29:14That means the costs of our exports and imports are going to go up.
0:29:16 > 0:29:21But it could also be if we then
0:29:21 > 0:29:23shackle ourselves by not
0:29:23 > 0:29:27being able to expand into the rest of the world as well.
0:29:27 > 0:29:32And therefore, what David was saying,
0:29:32 > 0:29:35there is a grain of truth in what he was saying about the way in
0:29:35 > 0:29:37which world trade, and it is only a grain...
0:29:40 > 0:29:43..the way in which the rest of the world and our trade with the
0:29:43 > 0:29:47rest of the world needs to grow, and is growing.
0:29:47 > 0:29:52But actually, if you look at the top ten Commonwealth countries put
0:29:52 > 0:29:57together, that's including India, including Pakistan,
0:29:57 > 0:30:00including Australia, including Canada,
0:30:00 > 0:30:06the top ten make up simply 8% of our exports.
0:30:06 > 0:30:09Not the 44% that the European Union does.
0:30:09 > 0:30:14And if you take all 52 or 54 Commonwealth countries,
0:30:14 > 0:30:18they make up just 9% of all our exports.
0:30:18 > 0:30:22So, you have to balance what we may lose from the 44% that
0:30:22 > 0:30:27goes to Europe to how quickly we think we could make up the
0:30:27 > 0:30:32- rest with the rest of the world.- OK. I keep missing hands up there.
0:30:32 > 0:30:35I just want to ask, from what the gentleman said up there,
0:30:35 > 0:30:39David Davis - you've got this target back in of
0:30:39 > 0:30:42100,000 net migration by the
0:30:42 > 0:30:45end of the Parliament, the new Parliament, if you're there.
0:30:45 > 0:30:49Is that a figure you recognise, is that going to happen?
0:30:49 > 0:30:51Is that actually the policy?
0:30:51 > 0:30:55Yes, tens of thousands. Just to remind people...
0:30:55 > 0:31:00What it is at the moment, yes. 248,000. You promised three times.
0:31:00 > 0:31:03Wait a minute. Let me answer the question.
0:31:03 > 0:31:08- I might even have a smidgen of a point, you never know.- A grain.
0:31:08 > 0:31:12A grain of a point. I'll get the language right.
0:31:12 > 0:31:14The thing to say is, look,
0:31:14 > 0:31:17people want migration to be brought under control.
0:31:17 > 0:31:21As Suzanne said, this does not mean we do not want to be generous
0:31:21 > 0:31:24to migrants, it doesn't mean we don't value migrants.
0:31:24 > 0:31:26But it's a question of numbers.
0:31:26 > 0:31:30And it will be a question of bringing it down gradually, because
0:31:30 > 0:31:33we don't want to cause shortages, labour shortages, we don't...
0:31:33 > 0:31:37We want to continue to compete in the battle for talent worldwide.
0:31:37 > 0:31:40So much of our business is knowledge-based.
0:31:40 > 0:31:42Within the Parliament, within five years?
0:31:42 > 0:31:46That wasn't actually the manifesto. It was "we will bring it down".
0:31:46 > 0:31:47We didn't say...
0:31:47 > 0:31:49We would like to do it in the Parliament,
0:31:49 > 0:31:52but I think it will be dictated by a number of things.
0:31:52 > 0:31:55The economy, the speed with which we can get our own people
0:31:55 > 0:31:59trained up to take the jobs, the changes in the welfare,
0:31:59 > 0:32:02to encourage people to work, to take jobs as well.
0:32:02 > 0:32:05A whole series of things which were designed to ensure this is an
0:32:05 > 0:32:09- economically successful process. - But the aim is... Hang on.
0:32:09 > 0:32:12You've had the target for seven years.
0:32:12 > 0:32:14You're now saying it's not going to be fulfilled for the next
0:32:14 > 0:32:18- five years.- Hang on a second. - When will it be fulfilled?
0:32:18 > 0:32:20APPLAUSE
0:32:20 > 0:32:21You're keen for it to be fulfilled?
0:32:21 > 0:32:24- We have... - You think it should be reached?
0:32:24 > 0:32:27We have been a member of the European Union for that time.
0:32:27 > 0:32:33- Which means we don't control half of it.- David, David.- Let me finish.
0:32:33 > 0:32:35You knew that when you set the target.
0:32:35 > 0:32:37- NICK CLEGG:- David, you know as well as I do, since the turn...
0:32:37 > 0:32:41- Let me finish. - Hold on, Nick, I'll come to you.
0:32:41 > 0:32:46Non-European migration peaked at about 265,000,
0:32:46 > 0:32:49it's now about 175,000. It's coming down.
0:32:49 > 0:32:51But slowly, but it's got to be managed...
0:32:51 > 0:32:52Sorry, I just want to clarify this.
0:32:52 > 0:32:55Are you saying that it is Tory party policy,
0:32:55 > 0:32:57if you're re-elected as the Government next Thursday,
0:32:57 > 0:33:01to get it down to 100,000 within the five years of Parliament?
0:33:01 > 0:33:03- Is that your aim? - To get it down. The aim, yes.
0:33:03 > 0:33:06We can't promise within five years, that's the point.
0:33:07 > 0:33:10I mean, this constant refrain you get from the Conservatives
0:33:10 > 0:33:13that they're being held back from dealing with immigration
0:33:13 > 0:33:15because of the European Union. Here is a fact.
0:33:15 > 0:33:19In terms of total net immigration into our country since the
0:33:19 > 0:33:20turn of the century,
0:33:20 > 0:33:23only a quarter of that total has come from within the European Union.
0:33:23 > 0:33:26If we had wanted to, as a country...
0:33:26 > 0:33:30It is ludicrous to start penalising Danish engineers,
0:33:30 > 0:33:33German doctors, Portuguese nurses because of
0:33:33 > 0:33:37a systemic failure of government after government, of various
0:33:37 > 0:33:38persuasions, to deal with immigration...
0:33:38 > 0:33:40Can I just make a wider point?
0:33:40 > 0:33:44We know, because we've heard this from Whitehall, we know what
0:33:44 > 0:33:46no deal looks like.
0:33:46 > 0:33:51The Treasury published official statistics last year which
0:33:51 > 0:33:53said that if we have a so-called free trade agreement,
0:33:53 > 0:33:56the one I think you preferred, the sort of Canada one,
0:33:56 > 0:33:57that would cost this country,
0:33:57 > 0:34:03according to our own Treasury in Whitehall, £36 billion per year.
0:34:03 > 0:34:06If we have no deal, according to official government statistics,
0:34:06 > 0:34:10it would cost us £45 billion a year.
0:34:10 > 0:34:12The government, your government, has never denied that.
0:34:12 > 0:34:16- Do you deny those statistics?- I'll point something out to you.- No, no.
0:34:16 > 0:34:19Answer the question, David. Answer the question.
0:34:19 > 0:34:22I am going to point something out to you.
0:34:22 > 0:34:25THEY ALL TALK AT ONCE
0:34:25 > 0:34:27This is no good, barracking.
0:34:27 > 0:34:32Just let David Davis answer. Just answer briefly.
0:34:32 > 0:34:35There were forecasts that said immediately after the vote to
0:34:35 > 0:34:38leave in the referendum, there will be a minus,
0:34:38 > 0:34:40there will be a reduction in the size of the British economy.
0:34:40 > 0:34:44And then in the last quarter and the current quarter, what happened?
0:34:44 > 0:34:47We were one of the fastest-growing nations...
0:34:47 > 0:34:49David, you just plummeted this week to the...
0:34:49 > 0:34:50The answer is,
0:34:50 > 0:34:53these forecasts are not worth the paper they're written on.
0:34:53 > 0:34:56Just this week, it's been revealed that we have plummeted,
0:34:56 > 0:34:59as a country, from the fastest-growing economy
0:34:59 > 0:35:01amongst developed economies to the slowest.
0:35:01 > 0:35:02In a three-month period.
0:35:02 > 0:35:05OK, if you don't agree with those statistics, what alternative
0:35:05 > 0:35:07statistics would you put to estimate the effect of no deal?
0:35:07 > 0:35:10- You must have some idea... - Yeah.- ..about how much it'd
0:35:10 > 0:35:12- cost the British economy. - Yes, and I started out by telling
0:35:12 > 0:35:14- you what the basis was. - No, what's the figure?
0:35:14 > 0:35:17We're already at 58% of our trade is with the rest of the globe.
0:35:17 > 0:35:20- David...- And that will grow faster...- This is beneath you.
0:35:20 > 0:35:23You know as well as I do, if you double the trade
0:35:23 > 0:35:25with the so-called Anglosphere, with America, with India,
0:35:25 > 0:35:27with New Zealand, with Canada and Australia,
0:35:27 > 0:35:29you double trade - double - with all of those great economies,
0:35:29 > 0:35:31it still wouldn't be as much
0:35:31 > 0:35:32as we trade with our nearest neighbours.
0:35:32 > 0:35:35Nick, the problem with what you're saying is that we know and it's
0:35:35 > 0:35:38accepted, and I think, even your party accepts, though you say you
0:35:38 > 0:35:41want another referendum, that the British electorate voted to leave.
0:35:41 > 0:35:43So the objective should be to minimise the damage.
0:35:43 > 0:35:45You minimise the damage in a way that neither David...
0:35:45 > 0:35:48- Are you saying that he doesn't want to minimise the damage?- No.
0:35:48 > 0:35:50- I'll tell you what I think they... - Hang on. No, are you saying that?
0:35:50 > 0:35:53I think they've made a catastrophic error by announcing, they didn't
0:35:53 > 0:35:56need to do this, with the support of the Labour Party, I should add,
0:35:56 > 0:35:59that we are going to not only leave the political institutions of the
0:35:59 > 0:36:01European Union but we're also going to leave
0:36:01 > 0:36:03Margaret Thatcher's single market. They didn't need to do that.
0:36:03 > 0:36:05There are plenty of countries...
0:36:05 > 0:36:07- Angus Robertson...- ..not in the EU but are in the single market.
0:36:07 > 0:36:10Can I just finish with something that I hope we all agree on?
0:36:10 > 0:36:12APPLAUSE
0:36:12 > 0:36:14A statement was made from the audience,
0:36:14 > 0:36:16and I'm sorry but I fundamentally disagree with it, and the
0:36:16 > 0:36:20statement was that immigration has destroyed this country.
0:36:20 > 0:36:22And I'm sorry, that's just wrong.
0:36:22 > 0:36:24It's just wrong.
0:36:24 > 0:36:26APPLAUSE
0:36:29 > 0:36:32- OK.- And whether you live in Barnet or whether you live in the north
0:36:32 > 0:36:35of Scotland, there are people from across Europe and the rest of
0:36:35 > 0:36:37the world. They work in our health service, they work in our public
0:36:37 > 0:36:41services, they work in our economy, and without them,
0:36:41 > 0:36:45things would be a lot worse and we should remember that and we should
0:36:45 > 0:36:49not allow statements like that to be made and allowed to stand.
0:36:49 > 0:36:50Let's go on.
0:36:50 > 0:36:52APPLAUSE I know a lot of you want to speak.
0:36:52 > 0:36:55We'll stick with money and the economy and take
0:36:55 > 0:36:58a question from Paul Berry, please.
0:36:58 > 0:37:01Are Jeremy Corbyn's new tax proposals going to scare away
0:37:01 > 0:37:03wealth and talent from this country?
0:37:04 > 0:37:08The proposals for increasing tax and increasing Government spending,
0:37:08 > 0:37:11are they going to scare away wealth and talent from this country?
0:37:11 > 0:37:13David Davis, you start on this.
0:37:13 > 0:37:16Well, the short answer is yes. I mean, the...
0:37:16 > 0:37:20One of the major areas he's looking about raising tax is on
0:37:20 > 0:37:22corporation tax.
0:37:22 > 0:37:25Now, corporation tax has come down over the years in rate terms,
0:37:25 > 0:37:27in terms of the actual rate,
0:37:27 > 0:37:31and as it's come down what's happened is the amount collected
0:37:31 > 0:37:37has gone up. It's now £56 billion, this is its highest level ever.
0:37:37 > 0:37:39And the effect of that...
0:37:39 > 0:37:41I mean, the effect of bringing the tax rate down is that
0:37:41 > 0:37:46businesses come here, whether it's Microsoft or whether it's Apple
0:37:46 > 0:37:48or whether it's McDonald's or whether it's...
0:37:48 > 0:37:50- They don't pay tax anyway! - Well, they do.
0:37:50 > 0:37:52- LAUGHTER - They do now. Well, let's take
0:37:52 > 0:37:54that point. It's a fair...
0:37:54 > 0:37:56And I think actually it's a fair point because, you know,
0:37:56 > 0:38:00one of the problems we have is actually collecting tax from
0:38:00 > 0:38:02internationally mobile countries and there's
0:38:02 > 0:38:06a thing called the tax shortfall, which is the lowest in this
0:38:06 > 0:38:09country of any country in the Western world - 6%.
0:38:09 > 0:38:11We collect more tax than anybody else.
0:38:11 > 0:38:15We have a diverted profits tax which we collect on,
0:38:15 > 0:38:16the first in the world.
0:38:16 > 0:38:18So the answer is yes, I'm afraid it will,
0:38:18 > 0:38:22it will drive business away. That will cut jobs,
0:38:22 > 0:38:25it'll cut wealth creation, it'll cut the tax base,
0:38:25 > 0:38:28it'll end up not delivering, and one of the things the IFS said
0:38:28 > 0:38:32was he would not be able to deliver on the basis of that tax policy.
0:38:32 > 0:38:35APPLAUSE Barry Gardiner.
0:38:38 > 0:38:40Under Margaret Thatcher,
0:38:40 > 0:38:46corporation tax in this country was 52% and the lowest she ever
0:38:46 > 0:38:51got it to, in the last years of her reign as Prime Minister, was 34%.
0:38:53 > 0:39:01This Government, in 2010, has taken it from 28% to 19%
0:39:01 > 0:39:03and says that it will go down to 17%.
0:39:04 > 0:39:08Our proposal is to take it back up to 26%,
0:39:08 > 0:39:11half of where it was under Margaret Thatcher,
0:39:11 > 0:39:15and still two points lower than it was in 2010,
0:39:15 > 0:39:19when this Government came into office,
0:39:19 > 0:39:24and what we've seen in the past seven years is, as corporation
0:39:24 > 0:39:29tax has gone down, instead of those companies using the money that
0:39:29 > 0:39:35they've gained to invest in research and development as they ought
0:39:35 > 0:39:40to have done, in creating new jobs, in growing our economy,
0:39:40 > 0:39:44what they've actually done is they've stuck on piles of cash
0:39:44 > 0:39:49in their reserves and given more money to their shareholders.
0:39:49 > 0:39:51That's not...
0:39:51 > 0:39:53- CHEERING - That's not what that money
0:39:53 > 0:39:55- should be used for.- But...
0:39:55 > 0:39:58I know we're not allowed to believe in experts any more,
0:39:58 > 0:40:02but when the Institute for Fiscal Studies says that these tax
0:40:02 > 0:40:06increases, it's possible that they would raise nothing because
0:40:06 > 0:40:08- of people's changed behaviour. - Exactly.- And when David Davis
0:40:08 > 0:40:11talks about the record high from corporation tax,
0:40:11 > 0:40:12how do you know this is going to work?
0:40:12 > 0:40:15Look, let's be clear about what the Institute for Fiscal Studies
0:40:15 > 0:40:19did actually say, they looked at the 48.6 billion of our costed
0:40:19 > 0:40:23manifesto, and let's face it, we actually took the trouble to
0:40:23 > 0:40:27cost our manifesto, which the Conservatives didn't...
0:40:27 > 0:40:31- APPLAUSE - Erm...
0:40:31 > 0:40:36The 48.6 billion that all the things that, actually, I think
0:40:36 > 0:40:39probably people in this audience quite think are good policies,
0:40:39 > 0:40:42- like restoring...- Hang on... - ..the funding cuts to our schools.
0:40:42 > 0:40:43..you're talking about spending,
0:40:43 > 0:40:46- we were talking about getting the money.- And...- Not about spending.
0:40:46 > 0:40:49- The Institute for Fiscal Studies said it might raise nothing.- No.
0:40:49 > 0:40:49That's what they said.
0:40:49 > 0:40:51- What they said is... - DAVID DAVIS:- Yes, they did.
0:40:51 > 0:40:57They said in the long term, companies always find ways to avoid
0:40:57 > 0:41:00paying tax and that's why, in the long term, that might happen,
0:41:00 > 0:41:03- but what they also said... - Then you'd be up the creek without
0:41:03 > 0:41:05- a paddle...- What they said...- ..if that happened.
0:41:05 > 0:41:07Well, yes, and so would the Government now
0:41:07 > 0:41:10if they were doing it even on the 19% and the 17%,
0:41:10 > 0:41:12which was the point of my interjection on David earlier.
0:41:12 > 0:41:15But the stark numbers are... The stark numbers are the take
0:41:15 > 0:41:18- has virtually doubled at this rate. - The stark numbers are that the
0:41:18 > 0:41:23Institute for Fiscal Studies said that actually our programme balanced
0:41:23 > 0:41:25in current spending, and you know they did,
0:41:25 > 0:41:29they said that our current spending balanced and they said that
0:41:29 > 0:41:34they thought our estimates of tax revenues at 48.6 might be too
0:41:34 > 0:41:38high by a maximum of 8.6 billion, they said,
0:41:38 > 0:41:41because they said it would at least raise the 40 billion.
0:41:41 > 0:41:44But let's be clear about what the Institute for Fiscal Studies
0:41:44 > 0:41:46said and let's be clear that what this Government
0:41:46 > 0:41:53has done is given tax giveaways to the corporations and the very
0:41:53 > 0:41:57wealthiest in our society and yet they have cut the benefits,
0:41:57 > 0:42:02they have cut the funding to our schools, they are not prepared...
0:42:02 > 0:42:05They have introduced the bedroom tax.
0:42:05 > 0:42:10- All right.- They're not prepared to give pensioners the triple lock on
0:42:10 > 0:42:13their pensions and dignity in old-age and now they're
0:42:13 > 0:42:17proposing to take their homes away from them with the dementia tax.
0:42:17 > 0:42:19APPLAUSE DROWNS SPEECH
0:42:21 > 0:42:24The man there in the second row. I'll come to you in front before.
0:42:24 > 0:42:27- Er, afterwards.- Barry, I've been through your costings in
0:42:27 > 0:42:29quite a lot of detail.
0:42:29 > 0:42:33£48 billion extra tax, you say you'll raise,
0:42:33 > 0:42:37that matches the 48 billion extra that you say you'll spend
0:42:37 > 0:42:41and from an Excel spreadsheet point of view I agree it balances and
0:42:41 > 0:42:45- it adds up, but...- And so does the IFS.- Hang on, let him speak.
0:42:45 > 0:42:47The assumptions that underlie it are thoroughly flawed.
0:42:47 > 0:42:52You say in your manifesto that you will raise 19.4 billion from
0:42:52 > 0:42:56corporation tax and an additional 3.8 billion from reviewing
0:42:56 > 0:42:58corporation tax reliefs.
0:42:58 > 0:43:03That, to my mind, does not add up, given that the current amount
0:43:03 > 0:43:09of tax raised in 2013 was 48 billion when the corporation tax rate was
0:43:09 > 0:43:16- at 26% and it is still the same now that corporation tax is at 19%.- OK.
0:43:16 > 0:43:17I want to hear from some more members
0:43:17 > 0:43:19of the audience before you reply. Yes, you.
0:43:19 > 0:43:23So, shall we start to talk about the 350 billion that we were going
0:43:23 > 0:43:26to get back, those figures didn't add up.
0:43:26 > 0:43:27APPLAUSE
0:43:27 > 0:43:31Point - the figures didn't add up, so...
0:43:31 > 0:43:34- You mean the 350 million? - Yeah. Those figures didn't add up.
0:43:34 > 0:43:37So we can't base arguments on that.
0:43:37 > 0:43:41Everybody here knows that there's going to be an issue when it
0:43:41 > 0:43:46comes to the process and the negotiation and the deal for Brexit.
0:43:46 > 0:43:48What is the backup plan?
0:43:48 > 0:43:51What's the strategy in place to support our economy,
0:43:51 > 0:43:55our education, our NHS and our citizens?
0:43:55 > 0:44:00We are sitting here very, very concerned and we're sitting here,
0:44:00 > 0:44:02if it goes through... We've got the confidence,
0:44:02 > 0:44:05we have the confidence and we want this to work well, but you have
0:44:05 > 0:44:11to give us back some confidence as well and we need to see our leader.
0:44:11 > 0:44:12APPLAUSE The woman there in the second row
0:44:12 > 0:44:15from the back. Yes. You, yes.
0:44:15 > 0:44:17I think there's a problem in general with, like,
0:44:17 > 0:44:20the British people's attitudes toward taxes in the first place.
0:44:20 > 0:44:22We say we're proud of institutions like our NHS
0:44:22 > 0:44:25and then we say we don't want to pay any taxes.
0:44:25 > 0:44:26And you can't have it both ways.
0:44:26 > 0:44:29You need to pay if you want the services and I think the
0:44:29 > 0:44:30services are worth it.
0:44:30 > 0:44:35There's a major confusion between tax rate and tax collection
0:44:35 > 0:44:36- going on here.- Yes.
0:44:36 > 0:44:40What you end up doing by making the tax rates higher is driving
0:44:40 > 0:44:44the economy downwards and end up collecting less tax overall.
0:44:44 > 0:44:47By having an economy that's working well for everybody...
0:44:47 > 0:44:51- Would you cut taxation?- I would keep the tax at the current level.
0:44:51 > 0:44:54Oh, I see. You, sir, in the middle, in the second row from the back,
0:44:54 > 0:44:56with the spectacles. Yes, you.
0:44:56 > 0:45:02We have to correlate 2010 tax, corporation tax,
0:45:02 > 0:45:06with 2010 employment rate, now.
0:45:06 > 0:45:08Corporation tax has come down,
0:45:08 > 0:45:10employment has gone up quite a lot.
0:45:10 > 0:45:12Unemployment has reduced quite a lot.
0:45:12 > 0:45:15By reducing the corporation tax, employment will increase,
0:45:15 > 0:45:22so Labour policies are pushing us towards again welfare state.
0:45:22 > 0:45:26OK, and the woman over there on the far side. You, madam.
0:45:26 > 0:45:30David seems very worried about large companies leaving this country
0:45:30 > 0:45:33in droves if we put the tax levels to 2012 levels.
0:45:33 > 0:45:36What's actually making the City leave and go to the continent
0:45:36 > 0:45:40- is his favourite thing, Brexit.- Yup.
0:45:40 > 0:45:42APPLAUSE Angus Robertson.
0:45:42 > 0:45:43I'll come to you.
0:45:43 > 0:45:47So, the first question is what is going to scare away business?
0:45:47 > 0:45:50And the questioner just a moment ago put her finger on the pulse
0:45:50 > 0:45:53because it's not really about what proposals are coming from
0:45:53 > 0:45:58any of the political parties in the panel, businesses are leaving now.
0:45:58 > 0:46:02They are leaving the City of London now, they're moving to Dublin,
0:46:02 > 0:46:04they're moving to Frankfurt, they're moving to Paris.
0:46:04 > 0:46:05It's happening already,
0:46:05 > 0:46:08which is why you should be very, very, very cautious when you
0:46:08 > 0:46:13hear things like, "No deal is acceptable," from the Government.
0:46:13 > 0:46:15But there is a wider issue that we haven't got onto,
0:46:15 > 0:46:18and I'm not sure what the next questions are, but there is...
0:46:18 > 0:46:20I think there's an elephant in the middle of the room here and
0:46:20 > 0:46:23it's a choice about what kind of society we want to live in
0:46:23 > 0:46:26and are we prepared to pay for it?
0:46:26 > 0:46:30And the current Government wants to carry on with its austerity agenda,
0:46:30 > 0:46:34making the poorest in society have to pay disproportionately...
0:46:34 > 0:46:38- APPLAUSE - ..and I think...
0:46:38 > 0:46:43I think that has gone on for too long, I think politics is
0:46:43 > 0:46:47about choices and we should be prepared to pay for our NHS, pay
0:46:47 > 0:46:51for our welfare state and have an honest debate about how we do that.
0:46:51 > 0:46:53We've made proposals about how to do that,
0:46:53 > 0:46:55other parties have their plans, too.
0:46:55 > 0:46:58But we cannot live in a society, surely,
0:46:58 > 0:47:01where it is our disabled, our ill,
0:47:01 > 0:47:03the poorest in our society who are having to pay the price.
0:47:03 > 0:47:05- All right.- That has to end, it has to end.
0:47:05 > 0:47:08- Suzanne Evans.- Yeah. Well, I absolutely agree,
0:47:08 > 0:47:11but do you know what, Angus? The thing is, the money is there,
0:47:11 > 0:47:13it's just we have got our priorities wrong.
0:47:13 > 0:47:16And Ukip is the one party going into this election
0:47:16 > 0:47:19that's saying it will not raise any taxes whatsoever,
0:47:19 > 0:47:21because we can give the NHS and social care
0:47:21 > 0:47:24- an extra £11 billion a year... - This is crap. This is...
0:47:24 > 0:47:26..by reappropriating money from elsewhere,
0:47:26 > 0:47:28- and starting, yes, with Scotland, Angus.- Ah!
0:47:28 > 0:47:30Because the Barnett formula is completely flawed
0:47:30 > 0:47:33and you get too much in Scotland, so we'd take some of that back.
0:47:33 > 0:47:35SCATTERED APPLAUSE
0:47:35 > 0:47:39I wonder how well Ukip are going to do in Scotland after that statement.
0:47:39 > 0:47:41- Yes.- I would like to say,
0:47:41 > 0:47:45everybody's always sort of skirting around the subject
0:47:45 > 0:47:47about finances and economy.
0:47:47 > 0:47:52Nobody has yet actually defined what we are going to be getting.
0:47:52 > 0:47:56Because currently, our schools are in crisis,
0:47:56 > 0:47:58mental health is in crisis,
0:47:58 > 0:48:00our disabled children are in crisis,
0:48:00 > 0:48:03my son is in crisis,
0:48:03 > 0:48:08and 1.3 million children are currently stuck in a system
0:48:08 > 0:48:11where there is apparently no funding,
0:48:11 > 0:48:14but the funding is there to take the parents to court
0:48:14 > 0:48:16at whatever cost.
0:48:16 > 0:48:19- ALL TALK AT ONCE - At whatever cost!
0:48:19 > 0:48:21And what about...
0:48:21 > 0:48:25Angus, I'm going to stop you, please. David Davis. Fair's fair.
0:48:25 > 0:48:29The first thing, the first thing... A number of questions have come up,
0:48:29 > 0:48:31all of which are absolutely on the point.
0:48:31 > 0:48:34The... You've got to have the money to spend in the first place.
0:48:34 > 0:48:37Now, we've been hearing an argument around this panel which
0:48:37 > 0:48:40seems to assume that everybody's looking for a bad outcome
0:48:40 > 0:48:42or looking for a no outcome.
0:48:42 > 0:48:44The Prime Minister this afternoon
0:48:44 > 0:48:48made a speech which has made it as plain as can be
0:48:48 > 0:48:53that what we're seeking is the best possible Brexit,
0:48:53 > 0:48:56which will underpin the best possible economic strategy.
0:48:56 > 0:48:58What we've had for the last seven years -
0:48:58 > 0:49:01Nick was involved in part of it -
0:49:01 > 0:49:04is a circumstance in which we took an economy
0:49:04 > 0:49:07in which we had the most spectacular deficit,
0:49:07 > 0:49:10£151, £152 billion a year,
0:49:10 > 0:49:13the most spectacular debt,
0:49:13 > 0:49:16the longest, er, the longest depression or recession
0:49:16 > 0:49:18for a century, virtually,
0:49:18 > 0:49:21and out of that you've had a period in which there's been
0:49:21 > 0:49:232.9 million extra jobs.
0:49:23 > 0:49:26The highest number of jobs in history.
0:49:26 > 0:49:31- The lowest unemployment since records began.- Sorry, can I just...?
0:49:31 > 0:49:33Come to her question.
0:49:33 > 0:49:36And out of that, the money to start to do...
0:49:36 > 0:49:38Well, to more than start to do something about this.
0:49:38 > 0:49:41I'm sorry, you say that, and we all understand that,
0:49:41 > 0:49:45- but under the current government... - But it's not a given.
0:49:45 > 0:49:47- It's not a given.- Because why then, have children,
0:49:47 > 0:49:50according to the Kid's Index,
0:49:50 > 0:49:53the UN, the United Nations Child Rights Convention,
0:49:53 > 0:49:59the UK has slid from 11th position to 156th out of 165.
0:49:59 > 0:50:01Under your government.
0:50:01 > 0:50:04How is that possible when you say we are doing so well?
0:50:04 > 0:50:06Just explain what the index is?
0:50:06 > 0:50:10The Kid's Index is part of a survey that is done on a yearly basis
0:50:10 > 0:50:13to ascertain how children are doing in our country.
0:50:13 > 0:50:16- All right. Nick Clegg. - And currently,
0:50:16 > 0:50:18we have slid to 156th position.
0:50:18 > 0:50:21I think the fundamental point you're making, which I'm sure
0:50:21 > 0:50:24everyone will agree with, is if we want to provide for our NHS,
0:50:24 > 0:50:27for mental health services, for our schools, for social care,
0:50:27 > 0:50:29the money needs to come from somewhere.
0:50:29 > 0:50:32- There's no such thing as sort of free stuff.- Correct.
0:50:32 > 0:50:35Money doesn't just appear out of thin air.
0:50:35 > 0:50:38So the question is, how do you raise the taxes for that?
0:50:38 > 0:50:40Now, I think the fundamental fallacy,
0:50:40 > 0:50:42which is back to Paul's original question,
0:50:42 > 0:50:45about the Labour Party's proposals,
0:50:45 > 0:50:48is they're saying you can all have lots and lots of free stuff,
0:50:48 > 0:50:53and only 5% of the taxpaying population is going to pay for it.
0:50:53 > 0:50:55I can tell you, having spent five years
0:50:55 > 0:50:57poring over the tax system in our country,
0:50:57 > 0:51:02the most difficult bit of the British economy to tax effectively
0:51:02 > 0:51:04is the top 5%, whether you like it or not.
0:51:04 > 0:51:06They move. This is what the Institute for Fiscal Studies...
0:51:06 > 0:51:08They change their behaviour. They relocate.
0:51:08 > 0:51:10I think the more honest thing to do...
0:51:10 > 0:51:12Which is why the Liberal Democrats have said,
0:51:12 > 0:51:15if you want to provide for the NHS and social care,
0:51:15 > 0:51:17this isn't going to be universally popular,
0:51:17 > 0:51:18but let's just be open about it.
0:51:18 > 0:51:20Everybody's going to have to chip in.
0:51:20 > 0:51:22We're saying a penny on the pound of income tax
0:51:22 > 0:51:26to raise billions and billions of pounds for the NHS and social care.
0:51:26 > 0:51:28- That is a tried and tested way... - But it...
0:51:28 > 0:51:31That is a tried and tested way of raising money. What you can't do
0:51:31 > 0:51:33is what Suzanne says, just do lots of stuff for nothing.
0:51:33 > 0:51:36- Just go into the Treasury... - And you can't just raise the money
0:51:36 > 0:51:38from the top 2, 3, 4 or 5%. It doesn't work.
0:51:38 > 0:51:40OK. Barry, I'll come to you.
0:51:40 > 0:51:44The man in the... You in the one, two, three...yes.
0:51:44 > 0:51:45There was a report out today
0:51:45 > 0:51:47which said that the top 1% of people
0:51:47 > 0:51:51earn 12% of income
0:51:51 > 0:51:54but already are paying close to 28% of income tax.
0:51:54 > 0:51:56What proportion do you think would be fair for people to be paying?
0:51:56 > 0:51:58Barry Gardiner.
0:51:58 > 0:52:00- Let me...- Answer him first.
0:52:00 > 0:52:04Well, I want to... The original question was not about Brexit,
0:52:04 > 0:52:07- as David made it. - Answer that question.
0:52:07 > 0:52:095% are already paying 50% of taxes.
0:52:09 > 0:52:12- How are you going to...?- 1%. - 1%, is it?
0:52:12 > 0:52:16The additional that we would be putting on income tax for the top 5%
0:52:16 > 0:52:18comes to 6.4 billion
0:52:18 > 0:52:24of the 48.6 billion extra revenue that we would be raising, OK?
0:52:24 > 0:52:28So it's actually a small proportion of that 48.6%...billion.
0:52:28 > 0:52:31But what I wanted to answer
0:52:31 > 0:52:35was that the gentleman who asked the original question,
0:52:35 > 0:52:39Paul said, would these tax proposals drive people,
0:52:39 > 0:52:41drive companies to leave the UK?
0:52:41 > 0:52:42Well, look.
0:52:42 > 0:52:4626%, which is what we are proposing,
0:52:46 > 0:52:51would still be the lowest corporation tax rate in the G7.
0:52:51 > 0:52:56It would still be well below the average corporation tax rate
0:52:56 > 0:52:58in the whole of the G20.
0:52:58 > 0:53:01So the idea that companies are going to up sticks
0:53:01 > 0:53:03and go to one of those other countries
0:53:03 > 0:53:04actually is fanciful.
0:53:04 > 0:53:07And, you know what? They didn't.
0:53:07 > 0:53:11In 2010, they were paying 28% corporation tax.
0:53:11 > 0:53:15Now, the real problem, the real problem is,
0:53:15 > 0:53:17as some people have said,
0:53:17 > 0:53:21how do you get the very wealthy to pay the tax they ought to?
0:53:21 > 0:53:24Because they're very good at secreting it away
0:53:24 > 0:53:27- and using offshore funds...- Well, do you have any answer to that?
0:53:27 > 0:53:30- Well...- Very briefly, because you've talked for some time.
0:53:30 > 0:53:31I want to get back to our audience.
0:53:31 > 0:53:33Not that I could do briefly.
0:53:33 > 0:53:35Well, then, that may be an answer.
0:53:35 > 0:53:37That may be an answer in itself.
0:53:37 > 0:53:39I'm going to take a question...
0:53:39 > 0:53:42I'm going to take, because we're coming towards the end here,
0:53:42 > 0:53:44Harvey Sobott, please, I'll just have your question
0:53:44 > 0:53:46and they can answer it as they choose. Harvey.
0:53:46 > 0:53:48Why is it that I don't believe anything
0:53:48 > 0:53:54that any politician tells me, even though I am a natural optimist?
0:53:54 > 0:53:56LAUGHTER AND APPLAUSE
0:53:59 > 0:54:02Well, we have five politicians here. Very briefly -
0:54:02 > 0:54:04Angus Robertson, you go first.
0:54:04 > 0:54:07Er, I'm sorry that that's the experience that you've got.
0:54:07 > 0:54:09I have to say, I've now...
0:54:09 > 0:54:11Well, none of us are MPs at the moment,
0:54:11 > 0:54:13but I've served in Parliament for 16 years
0:54:13 > 0:54:15and I have to say, in fairness,
0:54:15 > 0:54:17I know good people across all of the parties.
0:54:17 > 0:54:21I think part of people's cynicism
0:54:21 > 0:54:24is what political parties promise before elections
0:54:24 > 0:54:28and then what they deliver afterwards, and, you know,
0:54:28 > 0:54:30all of our mainstream parties here
0:54:30 > 0:54:32have experience of government,
0:54:32 > 0:54:34and it is tough,
0:54:34 > 0:54:36so you aren't always able to do everything that you want to do
0:54:36 > 0:54:40in the timescale... So I understand why people have a cynicism.
0:54:40 > 0:54:43My takeaway from that is we just have to try harder,
0:54:43 > 0:54:45and if you don't like what we say and what we do,
0:54:45 > 0:54:47- don't vote for us.- OK. Nick Clegg.
0:54:47 > 0:54:49Vote for somebody else. Stand yourself!
0:54:49 > 0:54:51Nick Clegg.
0:54:51 > 0:54:54Well, Harvey, the truth is politicians are flawed,
0:54:54 > 0:54:56they are failed human beings - we all are.
0:54:56 > 0:54:59- They make mistakes - boy, have I made a lot in my time.- Yes.
0:54:59 > 0:55:01- Yes, we agree!- Yeah, yeah.
0:55:01 > 0:55:03But here is the thing... Here's the thing,
0:55:03 > 0:55:06and I say this, by the way, for a lot of politicians I know
0:55:06 > 0:55:08across all political parties.
0:55:08 > 0:55:12Most politicians I know are not sort of evil people,
0:55:12 > 0:55:14they're not sort of amoral beings,
0:55:14 > 0:55:16and I think sometimes the way in which politics is conducted -
0:55:16 > 0:55:19this is principally our fault, look at the sort of bear-pit way
0:55:19 > 0:55:22in which Prime Minister's Questions is conducted -
0:55:22 > 0:55:25is this brutal sort of winner-takes-all
0:55:25 > 0:55:28where you demonise and vilify your opponent.
0:55:28 > 0:55:30You never accept they ever have a good point.
0:55:30 > 0:55:35So maybe one of the things we need to be more open about as politicians
0:55:35 > 0:55:37is that we don't always have all the answers,
0:55:37 > 0:55:38of course we make mistakes,
0:55:38 > 0:55:41and maybe a bit of give and take in politics,
0:55:41 > 0:55:43which is what we do in our daily lives all the time,
0:55:43 > 0:55:45- might not go amiss.- OK.
0:55:45 > 0:55:46APPLAUSE
0:55:50 > 0:55:52And...and brevity won't go amiss
0:55:52 > 0:55:55at this stage in the programme. Barry Gardiner.
0:55:55 > 0:56:00I think we often don't like to get caught out,
0:56:00 > 0:56:04and therefore what we do is when we're asked a question,
0:56:04 > 0:56:05we then hedge away and try
0:56:05 > 0:56:09and answer a slightly different question...
0:56:09 > 0:56:12- APPLAUSE - ..because we know
0:56:12 > 0:56:15that we can answer that one truthfully.
0:56:15 > 0:56:17Is that what you've been doing this evening?
0:56:17 > 0:56:19LAUGHTER
0:56:19 > 0:56:23But I too am an optimist,
0:56:23 > 0:56:26and that's why I'm looking forward to next Thursday
0:56:26 > 0:56:28and a Labour government.
0:56:28 > 0:56:30Suzanne...
0:56:30 > 0:56:32Suzanne Evans, briefly, if you would.
0:56:32 > 0:56:33I too am an optimist, Harvey.
0:56:33 > 0:56:36I fell into politics quite by accident,
0:56:36 > 0:56:39and I have to say, sometimes I've found it incredibly demoralising.
0:56:39 > 0:56:41But you do have to just keep going, you know.
0:56:41 > 0:56:43It's very important.
0:56:43 > 0:56:45One reason why I hope Theresa May doesn't have a huge majority
0:56:45 > 0:56:47is because we need a decent opposition.
0:56:47 > 0:56:50The problem is I don't think I see that in the Labour Party.
0:56:50 > 0:56:52And going back to the economy question,
0:56:52 > 0:56:55the thought of Jeremy Corbyn being in charge of our Treasury next week
0:56:55 > 0:56:56absolutely terrifies me.
0:56:56 > 0:57:00You're veering away from the question there.
0:57:00 > 0:57:02- No, no.- David Davis.
0:57:02 > 0:57:05David Davis. 20 seconds left, I'm told.
0:57:05 > 0:57:08When Nick Clegg was Deputy Prime Minister,
0:57:08 > 0:57:09he was at the dispatch box one day
0:57:09 > 0:57:12and he turned up, I can't remember what the question was,
0:57:12 > 0:57:15but he said, in answer, he said, "Don't trust any government -
0:57:15 > 0:57:17"even this one."
0:57:18 > 0:57:19- Did I say that?- You did.
0:57:19 > 0:57:21You did. But he was right.
0:57:21 > 0:57:24- Because...- Maybe that's why it went pear-shaped.
0:57:24 > 0:57:26The process of democracy
0:57:26 > 0:57:29is what allows you to winnow out what is the truth
0:57:29 > 0:57:33and it forces us to tell the truth and deliver on the truth.
0:57:33 > 0:57:36And long may it last, particularly next Thursday.
0:57:36 > 0:57:37Right.
0:57:37 > 0:57:40Thank you. Thanks very much. Our time's up now.
0:57:40 > 0:57:42Not next Thursday but tomorrow
0:57:42 > 0:57:45there's a special Question Time
0:57:45 > 0:57:49with Theresa May, the Prime Minister, Jeremy Corbyn.
0:57:49 > 0:57:53We're live on BBC One at 8:30.
0:57:53 > 0:57:57On Sunday, we've got Nicola Sturgeon and Tim Farron in Edinburgh,
0:57:57 > 0:57:59that's at five to six, if you can remember all this.
0:57:59 > 0:58:02And next Friday, that's the night after the general election results,
0:58:02 > 0:58:04we're going to be back with a special programme -
0:58:04 > 0:58:07Armando Iannucci, Alistair Campbell and others are going to be on it
0:58:07 > 0:58:09looking at the entrails of the vote,
0:58:09 > 0:58:11so if you'd like to come to any of those programmes,
0:58:11 > 0:58:13there's this address to go to
0:58:13 > 0:58:16or you can ring 0330 123 99 88.
0:58:16 > 0:58:185 Live listeners, as you know,
0:58:18 > 0:58:20Question Time Extra Time goes on now,
0:58:20 > 0:58:22but my thanks to all our panellists
0:58:22 > 0:58:24who came here and to all of you from Barnet
0:58:24 > 0:58:26who came to this edition of Question Time.
0:58:26 > 0:58:30Until tomorrow night at 8:30, goodnight.
0:58:30 > 0:58:31APPLAUSE