:00:00. > :00:07.It's D-Day minus three. On Thursday, we must all decide.
:00:08. > :00:10.Tonight, the leader of the Liberal Democrats Tim Farron
:00:11. > :00:13.and leader of the Scottish National Party Nicola Sturgeon
:00:14. > :00:33.David can't be here tonight. He's preparing for the big night.
:00:34. > :00:35.Over the next hour, our audience here in Edinburgh
:00:36. > :00:37.will put their questions to two party leaders.
:00:38. > :00:40.Neither are pretending they'll be your next Prime Minister,
:00:41. > :00:43.but they could play a vital role in shaping the future
:00:44. > :00:47.of the country, indeed, its very existence.
:00:48. > :00:51.You can join in from home on Twitter, Facebook and text.
:00:52. > :01:02.As ever, our guests have not seen the questions they're about to face
:01:03. > :01:05.and they drew lots to decide who would start.
:01:06. > :01:07.So first, please welcome the leader of the Liberal
:01:08. > :01:33.Good evening. Good evening, Nick. Good evening, Mr Farren, thank you
:01:34. > :01:35.for joining us. Let's get the first question tonight.
:01:36. > :01:38.If properly controlled, why is internet surveillance
:01:39. > :01:51.OK, firstly, Marco, you would like everyone else would have been here
:01:52. > :01:58.last night, but we, of course Whiteley, this boned to pay tribute
:01:59. > :02:02.to those who died. -- of course, rightly, postponed to paid tribute
:02:03. > :02:06.to who died. We stand in solidarity with all those killed and injured
:02:07. > :02:09.and their loved ones and those affected by the London attacks. You
:02:10. > :02:12.think about what you are going to say when you come on a programme
:02:13. > :02:17.like this after an event as happened on Saturday night. And you remember
:02:18. > :02:21.yourself saying really similar things a fortnight earlier, after
:02:22. > :02:27.the appalling outrage in Manchester. To my mind, our reactions, maybe
:02:28. > :02:30.they are similar. Mine are heartbreak, the impact on those
:02:31. > :02:35.individuals and their families, and frankly, anger that this should
:02:36. > :02:39.happen to people in our community, that it should happen at all, such
:02:40. > :02:46.utter wickedness. Therefore, the desire for something to be done is
:02:47. > :02:50.utterly right. So the question is what is that? Indeed, so here we go.
:02:51. > :02:54.Do we believe that the reason we have not been able to prevent
:02:55. > :03:00.outrages such as those on Saturday night and two weeks ago in
:03:01. > :03:05.Manchester was because of a lack of surveillance? Or was it because of a
:03:06. > :03:10.lack of resources? It seems to me, for example, that we have at the
:03:11. > :03:13.moment the ability, our powers, -- the powers, the police and security
:03:14. > :03:18.services have the powers to follow and track criminals, to be able to
:03:19. > :03:22.pursue terrorists, to be able to hack into their devices. What we
:03:23. > :03:26.don't have is sufficient pairs of eyes and hands in our security
:03:27. > :03:30.services and in our police force is to be able to pursue them and to
:03:31. > :03:36.catch them. Now I don't know what could be done to prevent three utter
:03:37. > :03:41.murderous cowards in a white van deciding to do what they did on
:03:42. > :03:48.Saturday night but I do know that we are much safer if we invest in
:03:49. > :03:50.police and in our security services. The additional 300 million that the
:03:51. > :03:53.Liberal Democrats would put into policing across the country would
:03:54. > :03:58.make us safer. The cuts Theresa May has made in the last seven years as
:03:59. > :04:06.Home Secretary and Prime Minister have not made us safer. APPLAUSE
:04:07. > :04:09.Are you convinced by that? I feel we are restricted and the police are
:04:10. > :04:12.restricted in the surveillance they can do. I think they should have
:04:13. > :04:16.more powers to be able to monitor these people, especially where data
:04:17. > :04:21.has been encrypted on mobile phones. It is a new world we live in. Why in
:04:22. > :04:26.your manifesto do you say, picking up on that point, that he would
:04:27. > :04:32."Rollback state surveillance powers"? It is not that you don't
:04:33. > :04:38.want new powers, you want fewer? We are talking about the snoopers
:04:39. > :04:41.charter, data surveillance, however you want to describe it. This is the
:04:42. > :04:43.issue, when we are trying to deal with terrorists and suspected
:04:44. > :04:46.terrorists, we need to be able to focus on what they do and who they
:04:47. > :04:51.talk to. What we have at the moment, if you like, is an ever widening
:04:52. > :04:55.haystack and we are looking for a needle. The answer is not to put
:04:56. > :04:59.more hay into the haystack. It is to put more magnets around the haystack
:05:00. > :05:03.so we can find what is in there in the first place. So you don't want
:05:04. > :05:08.those powers, you want them rolled back? There are two things, I have a
:05:09. > :05:12.practical concern and a principled concern. The practical concern is
:05:13. > :05:16.this, our security services utterly need the ability to be able to catch
:05:17. > :05:20.and trace people but the widening of powers is not something the evidence
:05:21. > :05:23.is there to support. It is a practical problem and there is a
:05:24. > :05:29.principal issue. The lady in the middle. You have said that the
:05:30. > :05:33.practical is to put more police effectively back on the beat again,
:05:34. > :05:37.that the Conservatives have got rid of, 20,000 bobbies on the beat. Are
:05:38. > :05:43.you going to give them more than a big stick? Let's takes a mother
:05:44. > :05:52.views. Lady at the front. One of the terrorists was known, he appeared on
:05:53. > :05:56.an ITV 4 documentary. Channel 4. Unveiling an Isis flag. We have
:05:57. > :06:00.thousands of Jawad is being allowed back into the country. Why are they
:06:01. > :06:04.being allowed back into the country and why are we not in turning the
:06:05. > :06:10.people we know are problematic? And the gentleman at the front. Just, I
:06:11. > :06:15.don't want to feel like the thing is too reactionary and we are just
:06:16. > :06:19.taking this for one issue to strengthen powers against terrorism.
:06:20. > :06:23.Terrorism, by its own mindset, is basically to create fear and to
:06:24. > :06:31.create a reaction. Strengthening views like that might be used
:06:32. > :06:36.indirectly. Yes, we were hearing about a big stick. So we need to
:06:37. > :06:39.have resources. Cressida Dick said today she did not favour and did not
:06:40. > :06:42.think it would make us a safer country if we armed every officer in
:06:43. > :06:47.the UK. I agree with her but that does not mean we shouldn't have more
:06:48. > :06:51.resources and off that ?300 million the Liberal Democrats would give to
:06:52. > :06:55.the police force, some of that would go towards ensuring we have that
:06:56. > :06:58.capability. There's a question about people being allowed back in the
:06:59. > :07:02.country and that is a really good question, given we had a question
:07:03. > :07:06.about the powers we do or don't need. The government has, the Home
:07:07. > :07:11.Secretary has the power to issue temporary exclusion orders. In the
:07:12. > :07:15.last two years, she has used one. We know of people who potentially could
:07:16. > :07:19.have been stopped. It is not whether we have the powers, it is whether we
:07:20. > :07:23.use them. But it is not just that because you say in your manifesto
:07:24. > :07:27.you want to rollback powers. You oppose powers for the security
:07:28. > :07:32.services to read encrypted measures, -- cryptic messages, oppose taking
:07:33. > :07:35.Internet history, you oppose the anti-radicalisation Prevent strategy
:07:36. > :07:40.and you once talked about a paranoid, authoritarian state. You
:07:41. > :07:44.are the new no powers man. We want to back the police do have resources
:07:45. > :07:48.to do something about it. At times like this, it is very easy and
:07:49. > :07:55.tempting for a politician to come up with a knee jerk, sounds good
:07:56. > :07:59.response. I want to do some good. I realise at this point, people are
:08:00. > :08:02.seeking answers and want to see action. For example, you talked
:08:03. > :08:06.about the anti-radicalisation strategy, and you asked the question
:08:07. > :08:11.before about people we know about and are not tackling. We know that
:08:12. > :08:15.the murder in Manchester was reported by his community on five
:08:16. > :08:19.separate occasions. -- the murderer in Manchester. That is a reminder
:08:20. > :08:21.out there the community are desperate to tackle terrorism and
:08:22. > :08:25.the police and security services don't have the resources to enable
:08:26. > :08:29.them to do it. That is where the priority must be. So even if the
:08:30. > :08:34.police and security services say they want more powers, you say they
:08:35. > :08:37.are wrong and they can have more money but not more powers. If you
:08:38. > :08:41.listen to the police and security services, what they want most is the
:08:42. > :08:44.resources to catch people and there's also a point, what do
:08:45. > :08:48.terrorists want us to do, to turn in on ourselves and be divided as a
:08:49. > :08:52.country? They want us to give up on our freedoms and our liberties and
:08:53. > :08:55.those are the things we must not sacrificed otherwise the terrorists
:08:56. > :09:02.would have won. APPLAUSE Time for your next question.
:09:03. > :09:05.Changing the subject, moving on to the issue of Brexit.
:09:06. > :09:08.Is your second referendum strategy in any way respecting
:09:09. > :09:18.I always think that if you believe in people having a vote, that is
:09:19. > :09:25.generally quite democratic. I take the view that the result last June,
:09:26. > :09:28.52-48, as narrow as it was, nevertheless, the government has the
:09:29. > :09:32.mandate to negotiate Brexit and that is the direction the country is
:09:33. > :09:36.going in. If I'm honest, it breaks my heart. I'm someone who believed
:09:37. > :09:40.that Britain would still be better at the heart of the European Union.
:09:41. > :09:45.Nevertheless, I accept that if the narrow wheel of the people. The
:09:46. > :09:49.thing is this, though, what happens next? One might argue that Theresa
:09:50. > :09:52.May has called the election as early as she has, despite the fact she
:09:53. > :09:57.also has a clear majority in parliament because Labour backed
:09:58. > :10:02.her, she has called it now before the details of Brexit become clear.
:10:03. > :10:07.That plan, that deal that Theresa May and indeed the European leaders
:10:08. > :10:11.will negotiate, will impact upon all of our lives, the younger we are,
:10:12. > :10:14.for longer, and it will impact on the prices we pay at the
:10:15. > :10:19.supermarket, on jobs and everything else. The single point here, Nick,
:10:20. > :10:23.if I can finish... Then you can tell me if I'm right or wrong. It is
:10:24. > :10:25.simply this that we will have to live with this deal for the next
:10:26. > :10:28.several generations and it will either get signed off by the
:10:29. > :10:33.politicians or by the people. What if it is a bad deal and I mean
:10:34. > :10:40.dementia tax bad, that kind of bad? If it is that bad, shouldn't you
:10:41. > :10:44.have the final say and not the politicians in Kenedy filled rooms
:10:45. > :10:47.in Brussels and London. APPLAUSE We are having a general election to
:10:48. > :10:50.decide who will give us the best deal going forward. Why do we need
:10:51. > :10:56.another referendum to save we will take the deal or not? Which way did
:10:57. > :11:02.you vote in the referendum? I voted to leave. The gentleman just down
:11:03. > :11:10.here? Second referendum for the EU, why not a second referendum. And?
:11:11. > :11:13.APPLAUSE Both Scotland and Northern Ireland,
:11:14. > :11:18.as you know the voted overwhelmingly to remain. We are partners, equal
:11:19. > :11:23.partners of the union, not regions. Do you support Nicola Sturgeon being
:11:24. > :11:26.at the top table for Brexit negotiations? Let's comeback to the
:11:27. > :11:30.Scottish issues particularly in a second and first deal with Ashley's
:11:31. > :11:35.point, which is that she thinks you are not listening to the will of the
:11:36. > :11:45.people. What part of no don't you understand? Fundamentally, my view,
:11:46. > :11:48.I'm a Democrat. But you are not because you say there was a vote and
:11:49. > :11:51.you want to have another one. We had a general election two years ago and
:11:52. > :11:52.we appear to be having another one... APPLAUSE
:11:53. > :11:56.I absolutely accept the result of the referendum and the people I
:11:57. > :11:59.blame for the situation we have got ourselves in our David Cameron and
:12:00. > :12:02.George Osborne who took the chance on our country's future and our
:12:03. > :12:08.children will pay for it and they were on the Remained side so I blame
:12:09. > :12:11.them if it's anyone. We are a country learned to deal with a new
:12:12. > :12:14.future and we must do it together but that deal that none of us know
:12:15. > :12:18.the content stop will be stitched up behind closed doors by Brussels and
:12:19. > :12:23.London and I simply say the final deal will be stitched up, or rather
:12:24. > :12:27.decided, endorsed by someone, either the politicians or the people. I
:12:28. > :12:31.think it is ultimately democratic to say it must be the people. APPLAUSE
:12:32. > :12:37.Do you want to come back to the Scotland question? The difference
:12:38. > :12:41.between the positions. Let's carry on with the Brexit position, whether
:12:42. > :12:49.people think you are or not listening to the will of the people?
:12:50. > :12:51.Doesn't it just underline that a yes or no referendum is a blunt
:12:52. > :12:56.instrument to make constitutional decisions with? Can I be honest and
:12:57. > :12:59.say I'm not an enormous fan with referendums but if you start with
:13:00. > :13:04.democracy, you can't end up with a stitch up. We voted for departure
:13:05. > :13:07.last June but we did not vote on the destination. It was not on the
:13:08. > :13:10.ballot paper and the only person I blame for that is David Cameron, it
:13:11. > :13:13.is nobody 's fault but his but we have started with democracy and we
:13:14. > :13:15.cannot end this process with a stitch up. After that, I will be
:13:16. > :13:21.happy if we never have another referendum. I'm a young person and I
:13:22. > :13:26.have just come back from living in the European Union and I really feel
:13:27. > :13:30.like I'm being shut out of this debate about free movement, about
:13:31. > :13:35.losing free movement, which would be so damaging to my life chances. Why
:13:36. > :13:42.shouldn't I get a say on what kind of Brexit I want to see? I think
:13:43. > :13:46.Vista Farron will agree with that. As a little reminder, it is a
:13:47. > :13:49.brilliant point, but tee things I want to say, first, the majority
:13:50. > :13:54.voted to leave, that is the result in the direction of the country but
:13:55. > :13:57.all of us, especially the leaders, must not forget that three quarters
:13:58. > :14:00.of young people voted to remain and they will have to live with the
:14:01. > :14:05.consequences of this for longer than most of us. The second point,
:14:06. > :14:13.freedom of movement is often raised but what about freedom of movement
:14:14. > :14:14.for British people? Our ability to live, work and study, love and
:14:15. > :14:17.explore overseas? These things matter, too, which is why the
:14:18. > :14:21.content of the deal should be agreed by the people, not the politicians.
:14:22. > :14:27.Forgive me, these are the arguments you put in the referendum and you
:14:28. > :14:30.were defeated. 48% of the population voted Remain, nobody quite trust 's
:14:31. > :14:36.opinion polls at the moment and not one of them as you above 10%. This
:14:37. > :14:46.is not exactly a popular cause, is it? Cliche klaxon number one, the
:14:47. > :14:48.only poll that matters is the one on Thursday. But it is right... If
:14:49. > :14:51.people really wanted what you wanted, you would be a very popular
:14:52. > :14:54.man, wouldn't you? That's a good question and I'm sure it may be so.
:14:55. > :14:56.Firstly, doing what you believe in is the right thing to do, some
:14:57. > :14:59.people think we take a calculation of our position, on this matter of
:15:00. > :15:04.democracy for the final deal but do you know my major motivation? In 30
:15:05. > :15:07.years' time, when my children are my age, I want to look them in the eye
:15:08. > :15:11.and tell them I did everything I could to protect their future. That
:15:12. > :15:12.is what being in politics should be about, not narrow calculation.
:15:13. > :15:20.APPLAUSE The gentleman at the front here as
:15:21. > :15:27.Stewart about the Scottish referendum. A second referendum is
:15:28. > :15:30.OK for Europe but it's not good enough for the people of Scotland,
:15:31. > :15:37.and we were promised the only way we could stay in Europe was by voting
:15:38. > :15:40.no. OK, so the answer to this question starts with me saying
:15:41. > :15:44.something nice about Nicola Sturgeon and the SNP, wait for it. Nearly
:15:45. > :15:51.three years ago, when Scotland had the chance to vote to leave the
:15:52. > :15:56.United Kingdom, the SNP, it's then First Minister Alex Salmond,
:15:57. > :16:00.produced a 650 page white paper showing what leaving the United
:16:01. > :16:05.Kingdom would look like for Scotland. And 12 months ago, Nigel
:16:06. > :16:10.Farage presented us with a lie on the side of a bus. They are not
:16:11. > :16:15.comparable. The Scottish people voted in that referendum knowing not
:16:16. > :16:20.just departure but destination also. They had no idea of the destination
:16:21. > :16:22.because Britain have not elected Conservative Government but was
:16:23. > :16:27.committed to have a referendum that eventually took us out of EU. The
:16:28. > :16:34.people of Scotland voted on the basis of a false prospectus. If you
:16:35. > :16:39.are a Democrat, why not give them another go? I fully respect whatever
:16:40. > :16:43.people feel on both sides of the issue on independence. I am bound to
:16:44. > :16:46.say as a northerner, it breaks my heart, the thought but you want to
:16:47. > :16:50.leave us lot saddled with the Tories, please don't go, but the
:16:51. > :16:54.second thing I would say on this is that we as a party stood in the
:16:55. > :16:58.Holyrood elections, the Scottish Parliamentary elections, last May,
:16:59. > :17:03.on a manifesto committed to Scotland as part of the United Kingdom and so
:17:04. > :17:07.keeping to our mandate, it is right that we say we continue to support
:17:08. > :17:13.the union and they're not being a rerun of the Scottish referendum. A
:17:14. > :17:17.couple of quick points. In 2014, Scotland was told that if it wanted
:17:18. > :17:23.to stay in the EU, it would have to vote no, so Scotland voted no and
:17:24. > :17:28.endorsed the EU. In 2016, Scotland voted to remain in the EU. Twice in
:17:29. > :17:33.two years, Scotland has endorsed the EU. Surely the only way to get a
:17:34. > :17:41.route back into the EU per Scotland is to become an independent country?
:17:42. > :17:45.Would you not agree there is misinformation on either side of
:17:46. > :17:51.these referenda? There is certainly misinformation from the EU and there
:17:52. > :17:56.was misinformation from the no campaign in regards to what we would
:17:57. > :17:59.get if we stayed in the EU. You have less than ten seats now, you will
:18:00. > :18:05.have less than ten seats in a week's time, what is the point of a vote
:18:06. > :18:10.for the liberal platitudes? Thank you very much! If the polling is to
:18:11. > :18:14.be believed, one third of the folks in here support the SNP and enough
:18:15. > :18:18.respect to all of you and two years ago, you had six MPs and whether I
:18:19. > :18:22.like it or not, you have made a significant difference in that time,
:18:23. > :18:26.so don't write off people on the current number of MPs in single
:18:27. > :18:30.digits. There were a bunch of questions about what happens next
:18:31. > :18:34.and the rest of it. My view is simply this, as somebody who is a
:18:35. > :18:39.northerner, committed to my collective British identity, I want
:18:40. > :18:42.us to be a United Kingdom. I totally respect those who believe in
:18:43. > :18:46.independence but I politely disagree. The issue about there
:18:47. > :18:51.being untruths or wrong arguments on either side, Juno what? I mean, I
:18:52. > :18:57.most critical about the arguments used by those who operated the
:18:58. > :19:03.Remain Campaign. Talking about misuse of information. Why won't you
:19:04. > :19:08.give them a Scotland referendum again? I think I have explained
:19:09. > :19:12.that. You asked me a question about people giving wrong arguments and
:19:13. > :19:15.all the rest of it. Can I point at the moment, I'm fairly sure, that
:19:16. > :19:20.Remain lost the referendum last year? It was the moment the George
:19:21. > :19:25.Osborne, who I should be nice to because he may or not print this, he
:19:26. > :19:27.pointed out that if you leave the European Union, usual foreign
:19:28. > :19:32.holiday, you lose your savings, you lose your pension, you lose your
:19:33. > :19:35.job. A whole bunch of people in this country thought I had got none of
:19:36. > :19:39.them, stuff you. The arguments for remain were not the emotional
:19:40. > :19:44.inspiring ones that should have been used and we could well have won.
:19:45. > :19:47.That is the history, a new question please, from Ann Treherne.
:19:48. > :19:51.Do you feel conflicted between your faith and your policies?
:19:52. > :19:58.Not in the slightest. I mean, my identity, like most of you in here,
:19:59. > :20:02.is multiple in the sense that I am a father, yes I am a Christian, I am a
:20:03. > :20:08.northerner, not as northerly as most of you but I count myself as a
:20:09. > :20:11.northerner, I am a Liberal Democrat, I could be facetious and say I am a
:20:12. > :20:14.Blackburn Rovers fan. All of these things make-up who I am and we all
:20:15. > :20:20.but blend of different identities and I believe somebody who lives in
:20:21. > :20:25.a society like this, which is so diverse and so balanced, I couldn't
:20:26. > :20:30.want to pick another country in the world to be in. You know why the
:20:31. > :20:33.question is being asked, it is because you have been asked it again
:20:34. > :20:36.and again and you may consider it unfair that you have often been
:20:37. > :20:41.asked whether you regard homosexuality as a sin? You have not
:20:42. > :20:46.wanted to answer the question. No is the answer to that question. You
:20:47. > :20:51.don't think it is a sin? Do you think abortion is wrong? The
:20:52. > :20:54.question is do you act in a way because of what you believe
:20:55. > :20:59.sincerely in your heart in a liberal fashion and defend people's rights?
:21:00. > :21:02.I joined the Liberal party, as it was then, when I was 16 but one of
:21:03. > :21:07.the very first campaigns I was involved in was trying to abolish
:21:08. > :21:09.and get rid of section 28, that homophobic piece of legislation
:21:10. > :21:17.introduced by the Conservative Government of that time and writes
:21:18. > :21:19.the way through my time, passionate for LGBT plus rights, particularly
:21:20. > :21:27.when we were in coalition Government, introducing gay
:21:28. > :21:31.marriage, and that is what is important. He has been clear, he
:21:32. > :21:36.doesn't regard homosexuality as a sin. What you think. You answer the
:21:37. > :21:40.earlier question by saying you have to do what you believe in, you have
:21:41. > :21:45.been active in LGBT and voted in favour of gay marriage, which I am
:21:46. > :21:50.impressed by, I respect that. That must be very difficult with a
:21:51. > :21:54.Christian evangelical background. No, if you are a liberal, you fight
:21:55. > :21:59.for everybody's right to be who they are. I honestly don't understand the
:22:00. > :22:04.conflict people think is there. Why is it so hard to answer the
:22:05. > :22:09.question? I am not somebody who wants to go around talking about my
:22:10. > :22:12.faith all the time. But you have had lots of interviews, you must be
:22:13. > :22:17.tempted to say let's have done with this and answer it? Or you could
:22:18. > :22:26.actually take the view that I am not running to the Pope and am not...
:22:27. > :22:31.APPLAUSE So I am a political leader, not a
:22:32. > :22:34.religious one. So I don't judge anybody. Utterly
:22:35. > :22:38.key to my bed, for what it is worth, you treat others as you want to be
:22:39. > :22:41.treated yourself -- key to my fate. You do not judge other people
:22:42. > :22:44.otherwise you yourself will be judged. We will move onto another
:22:45. > :22:47.subject and another. Frank Donnelly. Can we trust the Liberal Democrats
:22:48. > :22:51.after the U-turn on tuition fees that left their reputation
:22:52. > :23:03.in tatters? APPLAUSE
:23:04. > :23:08.So, I am the leader of the Liberal Democrats. I made a promise to my
:23:09. > :23:11.constituents by signing the pledge in 2015 to vote against an increase
:23:12. > :23:17.in tuition fees and I kept my pledge. You can argue it cost me a
:23:18. > :23:21.place as a Minister during that time of the coalition Government. It's
:23:22. > :23:25.important to keep your promises. It's also important to do what is
:23:26. > :23:30.right by the people that you represent. Whatever one thinks about
:23:31. > :23:34.tuition fees, I can tell you from my experience as a working-class lad
:23:35. > :23:38.who got to university in the late 1980s, what helped me to get to
:23:39. > :23:41.university was the simple fact that I got a maintenance award and that
:23:42. > :23:47.is what made the difference between me and my folks being able to afford
:23:48. > :23:51.me going to university. That is what the Liberal Democrats are committed
:23:52. > :23:54.to replacing, bringing in a ?7,000 a year maintenance award, so folks
:23:55. > :23:59.like me and many in the United Kingdom, Mike Berry can afford to go
:24:00. > :24:05.to university. -- can afford to go. Are you convinced? I just think if
:24:06. > :24:08.the Conservatives don't get the majority they need, and there is
:24:09. > :24:11.another coalition, how many of the pledges you have made just there
:24:12. > :24:16.will be turned over? We are not going into coalition, I have made it
:24:17. > :24:20.clear. Whether one likes it or not, Theresa May is heading for a
:24:21. > :24:23.landslide on Thursday, one wishes she wouldn't... You just told us not
:24:24. > :24:30.to trust the polls, how do you know she is heading for a landslide?
:24:31. > :24:33.There you go, you got me. Nick, you got there, but one assumes. Nobody
:24:34. > :24:38.calls an election at the point that she did she did not assume... Maybe
:24:39. > :24:42.she is taking it for granted that is the outcome. Either way, we have
:24:43. > :24:46.been very clear, we will not be going into coalition with any party
:24:47. > :24:50.after this election. You can still make a massive difference in
:24:51. > :24:54.opposition. Here in Scotland, quite a good example is the SNP
:24:55. > :24:57.Government, just short of a majority here, the Liberal Democrats are not
:24:58. > :25:00.in coalition or partnership for any pact with the SNP Government. We
:25:01. > :25:05.stay in opposition and we make a difference from the opposite side.
:25:06. > :25:13.If you want to stop dementia tax cuts in education and hospitals, in
:25:14. > :25:16.opposition gives you the chance. Just on tuition fees, slightly
:25:17. > :25:19.puzzling thing, your party promised to scrap fees after the election but
:25:20. > :25:22.you introduce them. You voted against these but you know so you
:25:23. > :25:29.will keep them because they are Pereira. Any wonder that people find
:25:30. > :25:35.it hard to trust your party? -- they are fairer. That was always about
:25:36. > :25:38.trust and not tuition fees. On the detail of the policy, has things are
:25:39. > :25:43.now in England, you have to be earning ?70,000 a year now before
:25:44. > :25:47.the new system that we introduced is more expensive for you than the one
:25:48. > :25:51.that was replaced by Labour. So it is about making things better. The
:25:52. > :25:54.priority of Ross is bringing back maintenance grants so working-class
:25:55. > :25:57.kids can go to university in larger numbers. I am going to ask Josh West
:25:58. > :25:59.to ask the question. How can the Liberal Democrats
:26:00. > :26:08.justify making every tax payer Well, first of all, we absolutely
:26:09. > :26:13.are proud of saying that we are going to be honest with all of you
:26:14. > :26:17.that the NHS and social care across the United Kingdom is in crisis and
:26:18. > :26:22.in England are specially, I would observe. And that means that either
:26:23. > :26:25.you can have platitudes from people who will tell you they can solve
:26:26. > :26:29.this problem without any extra money or we can be brutally honest and
:26:30. > :26:34.savour the price of a cup of coffee a week, we can have the best NHS and
:26:35. > :26:37.social care in the world. My view is this, there isn't a single person
:26:38. > :26:40.who either themselves or their loved ones uses health and care in this
:26:41. > :26:45.country and doesn't know there is a crisis. Social care, you have
:26:46. > :26:50.wonderful, loving people, caring people, caring for our older people
:26:51. > :26:53.who can earn more money stacking shelves at the local supermarket.
:26:54. > :26:57.That is an absolute outrage and I'm determined to solve it and we will
:26:58. > :27:00.solve it by putting a penny on income tax for everybody, to make
:27:01. > :27:03.sure we have the best health and social care in the world. Just spell
:27:04. > :27:08.that out a bit more, you say that is the price of a cup of coffee a week.
:27:09. > :27:14.Take a police constable, for example. How much would you 1p tax
:27:15. > :27:21.rise cost them? An average earner would be ?2 50 a week. A police
:27:22. > :27:26.constable were ?235 a year extra at a time when real incomes are going
:27:27. > :27:30.down. Isn't that important? We clear that what we are doing will make a
:27:31. > :27:35.massive difference. You can do banal offers that you know you are never
:27:36. > :27:40.going to keep or you can make promises... You could tax the rich
:27:41. > :27:44.or big business? The richest in this country would be paying 95% of the
:27:45. > :27:47.burden but this is a colossal problem and either we solve it or we
:27:48. > :27:51.don't and the Liberal Democrats have a plan to solve it and we are going
:27:52. > :27:56.to be honest with you and tell you how we will pay for it. You, sir.
:27:57. > :28:00.You keep saying it is 1p, it is not, it is 1%. The second thing, you
:28:01. > :28:05.mentioned dementia tax. It is nothing to do with dementia and it
:28:06. > :28:09.is not a tax. How will you raise the money for the elderly if those who
:28:10. > :28:12.can pay do pay? There is a great point and you are right to say
:28:13. > :28:16.calling the dementia tax, Theresa May's dementia tax, does not fully
:28:17. > :28:23.explain the situation because people with multiple sclerosis... He says
:28:24. > :28:26.it is not a tax. We are short of time, so briefly. What Theresa May
:28:27. > :28:30.is planning to do is say to everybody in this country who gets a
:28:31. > :28:34.long-term condition, whether it be Alzheimer's or multiple sclerosis or
:28:35. > :28:37.whatever it might be, if you have to get care then your spouse or your
:28:38. > :28:42.children, bad house will have to go on the point of your death. That is
:28:43. > :28:50.not something that is the case now. Theresa May says there will be a cap
:28:51. > :28:54.but give me a colossal majority first and I will tell you what it is
:28:55. > :28:56.going to be. So you think it is bearable somebody who works in
:28:57. > :28:58.McDonald's or claims a hospital to have coupe in their taxes instead of
:28:59. > :29:03.someone who has quite a prosperous background and has a house to pay
:29:04. > :29:07.for their own care? We believe there should be a cap in terms of what you
:29:08. > :29:10.pay for care. The seventh ?2000 cap that once upon a time was a
:29:11. > :29:17.cross-party solution under Andrew Deal not. We believe the dementia
:29:18. > :29:20.tax is an appalling attack on the poorest in this country. Nine out of
:29:21. > :29:24.ten houses will pay for it. If you have dementia or your loved ones
:29:25. > :29:27.have dementia, your house is at risk and on Thursday you have the vote to
:29:28. > :29:31.stop it, to vote Liberal Democrat. Thank you very much your time,
:29:32. > :29:36.ladies and gentlemen, thank you very much to Tim Farron.
:29:37. > :29:51.Sorry to cut off Tim Farron but we need to be fair to our next guest as
:29:52. > :29:54.well. and First Minister of Scotland,
:29:55. > :30:11.Nicola Sturgeon. Good evening, First Minister. Thank
:30:12. > :30:13.you for joining us. Let's get our first question this evening.
:30:14. > :30:18.What can our politicians do to make our streets safe again?
:30:19. > :30:23.Well, it's possibly the question that is uppermost in everybody's
:30:24. > :30:25.mind right now and all of our thoughts of course remain with those
:30:26. > :30:29.affected by that horrific and cowardly attack in the centre of
:30:30. > :30:34.London on Saturday night and of course with the people of Manchester
:30:35. > :30:37.as well. This is one of the greatest responsibility for any politician
:30:38. > :30:42.and I think the first thing politicians need to do is be honest.
:30:43. > :30:47.There are no easy answers. Often, the knee jerk responses are the
:30:48. > :30:52.wrong ones. Firstly, we have got to tackle and address and challenge
:30:53. > :30:56.extremism wherever we find it. I believe very strongly that we have
:30:57. > :31:01.to do that with the Muslim community will stop we mustn't scapegoat the
:31:02. > :31:05.Muslim community because it is wrong. Most Muslims are as appalled
:31:06. > :31:08.at these attacks as the rest of us. It would also be counter-productive
:31:09. > :31:13.because we are going to find it easier to root out extremism if we
:31:14. > :31:16.are working in partnership with that community. Secondly, we have got to
:31:17. > :31:22.make sure we invest in our security and intelligence services. And we
:31:23. > :31:25.have to make sure we invest in our police. Obviously, one of the big
:31:26. > :31:30.issues of debate today has been the reduction in police numbers in
:31:31. > :31:33.England, 20,000 fewer police officers. In Scotland, we have
:31:34. > :31:37.maintained police numbers and increased the numbers of police
:31:38. > :31:41.officers who are trained to their firearms. After the Manchester
:31:42. > :31:44.attack, Police Scotland was able to have an increased level of policing
:31:45. > :31:47.from within its own resources without calling on the military
:31:48. > :31:52.although we are very grateful for the offer of help from them. These
:31:53. > :31:56.are the things we have to do. Two final points are these, I've made
:31:57. > :32:00.one of them already about not scapegoating particular communities
:32:01. > :32:04.but secondly, we must make sure that in our determination and all of us
:32:05. > :32:07.share it to keep the population safe, we don't start to undermine
:32:08. > :32:13.our own freedoms and civil liberties. These are part of what
:32:14. > :32:19.makes us who we are. If you don't mind me asking, is that like saying
:32:20. > :32:23.don't give new powers to the police and security services? We should
:32:24. > :32:26.always listen very carefully to what the police and security services say
:32:27. > :32:30.but they already have fairly wide-ranging powers. I listen to
:32:31. > :32:33.some of your conversations with Tim Farron. They have asked for new
:32:34. > :32:39.powers in terms of controlling people at home or interception,
:32:40. > :32:42.there's a series of them. We have the ability to tag people who are
:32:43. > :32:46.thought to be extremist, exclusion orders to keep people who have left
:32:47. > :32:50.and gone to places like Syria, to prevent them coming back. The police
:32:51. > :32:54.and security services have wide-ranging powers in terms of
:32:55. > :32:56.interception. What we have to guard against is the security services
:32:57. > :33:00.having so much data and information that they can't make sense of it.
:33:01. > :33:04.There's a number of things we've got to do and I think we have to come
:33:05. > :33:13.together and try to make sure we move forward here with as much
:33:14. > :33:17.consensus as possible. Let's bring back in always. I find it quite
:33:18. > :33:19.disturbing personally that there are armed police on the streets but the
:33:20. > :33:25.incident in London would have been shot down -- shut down a lot sooner
:33:26. > :33:27.if there were more of them around. I'll be perfectly honest, this is
:33:28. > :33:32.one of the trickiest balances we have to strike. We have a police
:33:33. > :33:37.force, not just in Scotland but across the UK, that is routinely
:33:38. > :33:42.unarmed. My feeling is that is how the majority of people would prefer
:33:43. > :33:45.that it stayed. But we must make sure we have got sufficient numbers
:33:46. > :33:50.of armed police officers to respond to incidents like the one in London.
:33:51. > :33:53.Frankly, the response of the police on Saturday night was exceptional. I
:33:54. > :33:57.mean, all of us should be full of gratitude for the speed and
:33:58. > :34:00.effectiveness with which they responded. Frankly, the police
:34:01. > :34:03.saved, I think a lot of lives through their response on Saturday
:34:04. > :34:09.night and we must make sure we support them to do that. APPLAUSE
:34:10. > :34:12.Just before we move on to a different subject, just for clarity,
:34:13. > :34:17.though, you are the third biggest party Westminster at the moment, you
:34:18. > :34:21.would use your votes to vote against new surveillance powers, new forms
:34:22. > :34:25.of control orders, even if, as they have done in recent years, the
:34:26. > :34:29.security services say that is what they would like? We would study very
:34:30. > :34:32.carefully the proposals that came forward, we voted against the
:34:33. > :34:36.snoopers Charter because we thought it went too far in interfering with
:34:37. > :34:39.civil liberties and did not practically enhance police powers in
:34:40. > :34:43.the way we thought was effective but we would always look very carefully
:34:44. > :34:47.and studied the case for any proposal for additional powers. I
:34:48. > :34:51.want to move you want a subject you will be even more familiar talking
:34:52. > :34:54.about, Scottish independence. Let's take the question from Mr Gallaher.
:34:55. > :34:56.With SNP support falling, do you accept that you miscalculated
:34:57. > :35:01.the mood of Scotland by calling another independence referendum?
:35:02. > :35:08.Did you miscalculated the mood? Sometimes in politics, you have to
:35:09. > :35:11.do what you think is right. Don't get me wrong, all politicians make
:35:12. > :35:17.calculations and tactical calculations but sometimes you have
:35:18. > :35:19.to be guided by principle. My position on this is reasonably
:35:20. > :35:26.straightforward when you strip it all away. We face, not just Brexit
:35:27. > :35:30.but perhaps a very extreme form of Brexit, that could have implications
:35:31. > :35:34.and consequences for life in Scotland for generations to come. It
:35:35. > :35:37.could see jobs lost, it could see investment in our country falling,
:35:38. > :35:41.it could see the horizons of our young people in terms of freedom of
:35:42. > :35:45.movement seriously restricted. Now my proposition is simply this, when
:35:46. > :35:49.we get to the end of the Brexit process, and we can see what the
:35:50. > :35:53.implications are for the future of our country, we should have a
:35:54. > :35:57.choice. Do we think that is acceptable and right for Scotland or
:35:58. > :36:01.do we want to choose a different future? Because fundamentally, our
:36:02. > :36:06.future should be decided for us, not bias, which is the principal... A
:36:07. > :36:11.quick point from the audience, sir. What I would say is that with you,
:36:12. > :36:16.Nicola Sturgeon, you are very good at standing and speaking on your
:36:17. > :36:19.podium at Bute House about independence but when it comes to
:36:20. > :36:21.governing the country and tackling the big issues and current health
:36:22. > :36:24.inequality, education, social care and those things, the SNP and
:36:25. > :36:26.yourself are hopeless at it. APPLAUSE
:36:27. > :36:37.We are going to give you the chance to talk about that more later. We
:36:38. > :36:42.will come back to that. Please. Why have your approval ratings declined
:36:43. > :36:44.by so much? You used to be the most popular First Minister but your
:36:45. > :36:49.ratings have gone down ever since you became First Minister. And just
:36:50. > :36:53.in front? I just want to raise a point you made about our future
:36:54. > :36:56.being decided for you, my girlfriend is in the States right now and I'm
:36:57. > :36:59.training to be a medical student, about to be a doctor and I'm going
:37:00. > :37:08.to walk away from the NHS because the Tories are putting in
:37:09. > :37:11.immigration policies that are not benefiting Scotland. I think the
:37:12. > :37:14.people of Scotland will need to have a say, we need to have a voice and
:37:15. > :37:17.you need to bring it forward as soon as possible. I think you would agree
:37:18. > :37:19.with that but let's focus on the ones you might not agree with. They
:37:20. > :37:22.are saying that you announced a second independence referendum, you
:37:23. > :37:24.didn't have to do it, after Brexit, believing it would be popular, it
:37:25. > :37:27.would be the moment that would change it all but in fact, you have
:37:28. > :37:31.become less popular and independence has become less popular. Perhaps
:37:32. > :37:35.putting the polls into context, they all suggest the SNP is on track to
:37:36. > :37:40.win the election in Scotland fairly convincingly. I take nothing for
:37:41. > :37:43.granted, I don't take a single vote for granted but we have to take it
:37:44. > :37:45.in context. The points made by the gentleman here about the
:37:46. > :37:48.responsibilities of the Scottish Government, and I don't stand here
:37:49. > :37:52.and say that we don't have challenges to address but I was
:37:53. > :37:56.hearing as I was waiting to come on, the discussion about the demented
:37:57. > :37:59.tax and in Scotland, we support free personal nursing care so people have
:38:00. > :38:05.less burden on their personal assets when they need care. Our NHS, if you
:38:06. > :38:07.take the A departments, the best performing of any of the NHS systems
:38:08. > :38:21.in the whole of the UK by a considerable distance. Health
:38:22. > :38:24.spending in Scotland per head of population is 7% higher than it is
:38:25. > :38:27.in the rest of the UK. We have more doctors, nurses, health professional
:38:28. > :38:30.than anywhere else in the UK. I think we are doing a good job on
:38:31. > :38:32.these things but we have to continue to make sure we address the
:38:33. > :38:34.challenges we face. Still on the issue of the independence referendum
:38:35. > :38:37.for now because we have other questions coming, I know, on the
:38:38. > :38:40.record of the SNP government. If there was a second vote, should it
:38:41. > :38:45.apply for a minimum period of time, for a generation, 25, 30 years? Of
:38:46. > :38:50.course, you said it would be once in a generation. Let me be perfectly
:38:51. > :38:55.frank about this, when we voted in 2014, we were told that voting to
:38:56. > :38:59.stay in the UK protected our place in the European Union, and voting to
:39:00. > :39:03.be independent risk to our place in the European Union. Less than three
:39:04. > :39:06.years later, we find ourselves facing the prospect of Brexit with
:39:07. > :39:12.no real understanding yet what the implications are for lots of aspects
:39:13. > :39:16.of our change. My simple proposition is it should be our choice when the
:39:17. > :39:19.time is right and we know what Brexit means for our country, to
:39:20. > :39:23.decide what the future of Scotland should be because the alternative to
:39:24. > :39:26.that... Are you saying that on the night you lost the referendum, you
:39:27. > :39:30.went to bed thinking, that's it, there won't be another vote like
:39:31. > :39:34.this for decades, not in my lifetime. On the night of the
:39:35. > :39:37.referendum and until the Brexit rev read, if you'd told me I'd be
:39:38. > :39:41.standing here right now talking about another referendum, I would
:39:42. > :39:44.have said I didn't think that was the case. Many voters think that if
:39:45. > :39:48.your whole life and all you have spent your time thinking about. I
:39:49. > :39:50.want what is best for Scotland and the alternative to not having a
:39:51. > :39:54.choice over our own future is we have to put up with Brexit
:39:55. > :39:57.regardless of how damaging it is and that could mean narrowed horizons
:39:58. > :40:01.for our lost people and tens of thousands of lost jobs. If there was
:40:02. > :40:07.a second vote, would you stipulate for this time that it would apply
:40:08. > :40:11.for a minimum period? I don't think it is right for any politician to
:40:12. > :40:15.dictate to a country what it is future should be. That should be a
:40:16. > :40:22.choice for the people of Scotland. So the answer is no. The lady there.
:40:23. > :40:26.The idea of being possibly excluded from the UK and also Europe of the
:40:27. > :40:29.same time, I find it exceptionally scary, it would give us no control
:40:30. > :40:33.with regards to jobs and I think there's a lot of people who voted
:40:34. > :40:37.SNP the last time you have the same thought. Are we to smaller nation to
:40:38. > :40:40.be excluded from Europe and the rest of the UK? Some of the richest and
:40:41. > :40:44.most prosperous countries in the world are countries of a similar
:40:45. > :40:49.skies to Scotland. If that is your view, that is a choice you could
:40:50. > :40:53.make. -- a similar size to Scotland. But in this election on Thursday, we
:40:54. > :40:57.have a more immediate opportunity as a country to make our voice heard
:40:58. > :41:01.more loudly in the Brexit negotiations, I think, to make sure
:41:02. > :41:05.our interests are not ignored as Theresa May, assuming it is Theresa
:41:06. > :41:09.May, take the negotiations forward. Someone mentioned freedom of
:41:10. > :41:11.movement earlier. Immigration is a really difficult thing for
:41:12. > :41:15.politicians to talk about because people have concerns but one of the
:41:16. > :41:19.biggest challenges facing Scotland right now is the need to grow the
:41:20. > :41:22.working age population. If we have the Conservatives putting more and
:41:23. > :41:25.more restrictions on the ability of the best and brightest from around
:41:26. > :41:29.Europe and the world to come here, that will be damaging for our
:41:30. > :41:33.economy, not just now but for decades to come and I don't think we
:41:34. > :41:39.shouldn't we accept that. Do you think it is right that 50.1% of the
:41:40. > :41:45.population voting for independence could forever take us out of the UK?
:41:46. > :41:48.That comes down to... Those are the rules. It comes down to whether you
:41:49. > :41:54.think referendums are the best way to decide these issues. We will come
:41:55. > :41:59.in to Brexit later. Excuse me, I feel I'm very angry, I'm sitting
:42:00. > :42:06.here and I'm Welsh, I have taught the 1707 act very often and in no
:42:07. > :42:16.way does it mention that Scotland is a country. You signed thataway. You
:42:17. > :42:19.were glad to be part... I want to live at the time! You signed
:42:20. > :42:23.thataway and I feel most denied that you are prepared... I was born in
:42:24. > :42:30.Wales into Great Britain or the UK if you want to call it that, in
:42:31. > :42:36.1933. I am British. I am proud that during the war, we fought with Scots
:42:37. > :42:41.and the English. So you don't want a vote? I want to vote and I don't
:42:42. > :42:45.have one. The man at the bud. You make some very valuable points about
:42:46. > :42:49.the risks of leaving the EU about the ability to travel to work and
:42:50. > :42:52.trade with the rest of the EU. Many, many more of us work and trade and
:42:53. > :43:02.live with the rest of the UK than with the rest of the EU. Surely
:43:03. > :43:05.Scexit is much more dangerous than Brexit? I don't want people to have
:43:06. > :43:09.to choose between travelling and trading with the rest of the UK and
:43:10. > :43:13.doing that with Europe. I think we should have the ability to do both.
:43:14. > :43:17.If you listen to Theresa May and David Davis and other UK politicians
:43:18. > :43:20.right now, they say to the Republic of Ireland that they don't have to
:43:21. > :43:26.choose between trading with Europe and trading with the UK. Why should
:43:27. > :43:29.we lose our ability to trade in the biggest single market in the world,
:43:30. > :43:34.when tens of thousands on jobs depend on us being able to do that?
:43:35. > :43:41.We should be able... The point being made to you... Why should we choose
:43:42. > :43:44.between Scotland and the rest of the UK? The point being made is that you
:43:45. > :43:50.are losing more trade if you choose to leave the UK, even than you would
:43:51. > :43:56.be if you left the EU, I think. Why on earth would we stop trading with
:43:57. > :44:01.the rest of the UK? Let's here from the man who asked the question.
:44:02. > :44:04.Surely that then becomes whatever deal you manage to get after Scexit
:44:05. > :44:08.is with the rest of the UK Government says, sorry, hard
:44:09. > :44:12.bargains, no trade deals, be stuffed. The UK Government right now
:44:13. > :44:16.is saying to Ireland, rightly, let me make care that Brexit does not
:44:17. > :44:20.mean a hard border between the north and south of Ireland, it does not
:44:21. > :44:23.mean interruption to trade. The Prime Minister went to Dublin, I
:44:24. > :44:28.think, and said Ireland does not have to choose between trading with
:44:29. > :44:31.Europe and trading the UK. How is it they can say that to Ireland but try
:44:32. > :44:35.to pretend in Scotland that something different would be the
:44:36. > :44:39.case? We should protect our trade with the UK but in my view, also
:44:40. > :44:42.tried to protect our trade with the single market and the biggest single
:44:43. > :44:46.market in the world, which is eight times bigger than the UK market.
:44:47. > :44:50.That is the best of both words -- both worlds that Scotland should be
:44:51. > :44:52.seeking to secure. I have not given you the chance to defend your
:44:53. > :44:58.policies in government but I will do that now with another question.
:44:59. > :45:00.You've said you want to be judged on education.
:45:01. > :45:12.APPLAUSE For obviously people here and live
:45:13. > :45:18.audience in Edinburgh know what you're talking about but why Chris
:45:19. > :45:22.Woakes forgot what is it about the educational record that you think
:45:23. > :45:26.raises questions? I think on a number of measures, the Scottish
:45:27. > :45:29.education system, which is to be regarded as probably the best in
:45:30. > :45:37.Britain is now, you know, the worst and I think that there have also
:45:38. > :45:42.been misjudgements around things like the funding of tuition fees,
:45:43. > :45:47.free tuition fees, which are paid for by... Just to remind people that
:45:48. > :45:52.health and education are devolved policy so they are determined by
:45:53. > :45:55.your Government. Firstly, I will defend free university tuition. I
:45:56. > :45:58.got the chance to go to university because education was free and I
:45:59. > :46:02.don't think I have the right to take that away from anybody and we have
:46:03. > :46:05.more young people now in Scotland going to university than ever
:46:06. > :46:09.before, including more young people from our most deprived communities.
:46:10. > :46:16.I stood for the Scottish Parliament election last year seeking to be
:46:17. > :46:18.First Minister and said over the course of the Scottish Parliament,
:46:19. > :46:21.my priority was to raise standards in our schools and close the
:46:22. > :46:23.attainment gap and we're working to do that through a range of different
:46:24. > :46:26.reforms and additional investment director into our schools, to
:46:27. > :46:32.headteachers, to allow them to employ additional staff or whatever
:46:33. > :46:34.resources they think are necessary. In the internationally recognised
:46:35. > :46:40.Pisa rankings, Scotland recorded its worst ever results last year for
:46:41. > :46:44.reading, maths and science. That doesn't leave a great deal, does it?
:46:45. > :46:50.Absolutely, these figures are two years old. All figures look at the
:46:51. > :46:53.past. What sparked me making that commitment and I will be when we
:46:54. > :46:57.come to contest the next Scottish Parliamentary elections, if I'm
:46:58. > :47:00.asking people to vote for me again as First Minister, I expect to be
:47:01. > :47:04.judged on that and it is legitimate to me to be asked these questions
:47:05. > :47:08.and answer them but on Thursday, we are not using a Scottish Government,
:47:09. > :47:11.we are choosing MPs who will go to Westminster and vote on public
:47:12. > :47:15.spending, whether the money available to invest in schools and
:47:16. > :47:19.hospitals goes up or down. We will elect MPs to go to Westminster to
:47:20. > :47:23.decide whether the Social Security cuts that the Tories want to impose
:47:24. > :47:26.that are going to drive hundreds of thousands, perhaps a million more
:47:27. > :47:32.children across the UK into poverty and we need to make sure we have
:47:33. > :47:36.strong voices. Do you think that forcing through the Draconian named
:47:37. > :47:43.persons act will improve education results? Do you think you should be
:47:44. > :47:47.focusing on what is important? Can I just make a point with regards to
:47:48. > :47:50.higher education? Even though you have got free education, which, to
:47:51. > :47:54.be honest, it isn't free, we are paying for it as taxpayers, it is
:47:55. > :47:59.having the perverse effect of restricting and rationing places for
:48:00. > :48:03.Scottish students in order for non-Scottish students to pay for
:48:04. > :48:11.that. And secondly, also, the evidence is also showing that
:48:12. > :48:15.regardless... With England having fees, there are in fact more
:48:16. > :48:20.deprived students but percentage compared to Scotland actually go to
:48:21. > :48:27.universities are free education is not... Internationally recognised
:48:28. > :48:30.statistics show that England is more successful in getting deprived young
:48:31. > :48:35.people into university than Scotland, even though the SNP
:48:36. > :48:38.abolished tuition fees. I don't want to be too technical but the stats
:48:39. > :48:42.are not directly comparable. More young people in Scotland than in
:48:43. > :48:47.England and hedged acrylate higher education in further education
:48:48. > :48:50.colleges but we have more Scottish students could university than ever
:48:51. > :48:53.before, we have more places than ever before for Scottish students
:48:54. > :48:57.and the gap between the richest and poorest is starting to narrow. We
:48:58. > :49:02.need to do more. But young people in university are coming out of -- in
:49:03. > :49:06.England are coming out of university with ?27,000 in debt from tuition
:49:07. > :49:09.fees so students in Scotland have much lower debt to take into the
:49:10. > :49:13.start of their working lives. I think education should be based on
:49:14. > :49:22.your ability to learn, not on your ability to pay. Just clarify
:49:23. > :49:25.something, you... It was quoted to you by the questioner, you said it
:49:26. > :49:28.was your top priority and you would resign if you didn't get it right
:49:29. > :49:32.and I think you are saying I might have to resign but not just now,
:49:33. > :49:36.before the Scottish Parliamentary elections. With the greatest
:49:37. > :49:38.respect, I was elected as First Minister in the Scottish
:49:39. > :49:41.Parliamentary elections and put forward a manifesto for a five-year
:49:42. > :49:46.term and at the heart of the manifesto was the priorities in
:49:47. > :49:52.education. When we come to the next Scottish parliament election, I
:49:53. > :49:55.should be judged on how to account, but on Thursday, we are electing MPs
:49:56. > :49:57.hopefully to go to Westminster to protect public spending and stop the
:49:58. > :49:59.Tories pushing more kids into poverty which will make it more
:50:00. > :50:05.difficult for us to improve attainment in our schools. I just
:50:06. > :50:09.want to stick with education and actually want to say that I was
:50:10. > :50:13.quite angry to hear a gentleman earlier saying that Nicola Sturgeon
:50:14. > :50:17.got it wrong with tuition fees. I am a first generation student, no one
:50:18. > :50:21.in my family has been to university before myself and I would never have
:50:22. > :50:25.got there without free tuition for myself, so I am outraged at the
:50:26. > :50:31.suggestion that that is wrong. We will move on. You made your point
:50:32. > :50:34.powerfully but the First Minister has addressed tuition fees. We will
:50:35. > :50:36.move on to another question, if we could, on the issue of tax. Alistair
:50:37. > :50:39.Drummond. How can you support increased top
:50:40. > :50:42.rate taxes for the UK but not use devolved powers to raise
:50:43. > :50:52.Scottish taxes? Just to remind people of the powers,
:50:53. > :50:56.if you wouldn't mind, which is the Scottish Government does have power
:50:57. > :51:00.and has had since 1999 to raise the level of income tax and more
:51:01. > :51:04.recently has had wider powers to raise the top level of tax as well.
:51:05. > :51:08.On the top level of tax, we have the power to set the road. What we don't
:51:09. > :51:12.have power over in Scotland are the rules around tax avoidance, so we
:51:13. > :51:16.don't have the ability to say we would stop people moving their
:51:17. > :51:20.income south of the border or into capital gains, so we took advice and
:51:21. > :51:23.the advice was if that was introduced in Scotland alone, then
:51:24. > :51:27.we would risk not raising more revenue but actually seeing a
:51:28. > :51:30.decline in the revenue we raised. So that is why we didn't do it in
:51:31. > :51:34.Scotland alone. I think it should be done across the UK and if it is done
:51:35. > :51:43.in the rest of the UK, we would do that here in Scotland as well
:51:44. > :51:46.because we could be more competent than of raising extra revenue for
:51:47. > :51:49.our schools and hospitals. There is no point setting a tax if you come
:51:50. > :51:52.out with less money at the end of it. Mr Drummond? But surely if we
:51:53. > :51:55.have independence, it would be exactly the same situation?
:51:56. > :51:58.Absolutely not because with independence, we would have full
:51:59. > :52:02.power about the rules around tax avoidance and overtaxed. We have the
:52:03. > :52:07.power only to set the rate of income tax, we don't have the other powers
:52:08. > :52:11.to go around creating the whole of the tax system. But after many years
:52:12. > :52:14.of people campaigning for greater powers, first for a Scottish
:52:15. > :52:20.parliament and then greater powers for the parliament, they are
:52:21. > :52:22.pointless, these powers are unusable? On that particular issue,
:52:23. > :52:26.they have to be followed for us to allow -- be allowed to use them in
:52:27. > :52:31.Scotland. But you don't want to use them in any way? That is not true,
:52:32. > :52:36.we are not raising the basic rate of income tax. At a time of inflation
:52:37. > :52:39.racing, it is not right to ask lower and middle earners to pay more but
:52:40. > :52:43.we have taken a different approach on the higher rate of income tax.
:52:44. > :52:47.Unlike the Conservatives at Westminster, we are not giving a tax
:52:48. > :52:50.cut to people who pay the higher rate of tax. Instead, we are
:52:51. > :52:52.investing that revenue in schools and hospitals and that is absolutely
:52:53. > :53:01.the right thing to do. APPLAUSE
:53:02. > :53:04.I would like to move on for a second because our politicians south have
:53:05. > :53:08.been talking a lot about mental health. Could we talk about tax if
:53:09. > :53:12.you wouldn't mind? I can bring you back. The First Minister races are
:53:13. > :53:17.not meant that we won't raise additional revenue if we raise the
:53:18. > :53:23.top rate of tax -- races and are given that we won't. But in terms of
:53:24. > :53:27.the land tax, you rate it and damaged the Scottish property
:53:28. > :53:31.market. Regarding the 50p tax rate, is a Dodge is true that you want the
:53:32. > :53:36.50p tax rate to affect London and the south-east and receive more
:53:37. > :53:39.money... That is not how it works. If it was introduced in the rest of
:53:40. > :53:42.the UK, we would introduce it in Scotland. I want full powers of
:53:43. > :53:46.attacks in Scotland but right now, if we do it in Scotland alone, we
:53:47. > :53:49.couldn't prevent people shifting their incomes and we would run the
:53:50. > :53:54.risk of losing money. Surely common sense tells you that if the advice
:53:55. > :53:59.as you might lose money by putting a tax up, it would not the most
:54:00. > :54:01.sensible thing to do? I want you to ask your question, you wanted to
:54:02. > :54:07.change the subject onto mental health. Thank you. I just wanted to
:54:08. > :54:11.ask if perhaps we could move one step forward from many pledges that
:54:12. > :54:18.we hear about mental health and have a mental health committee, with MPs
:54:19. > :54:22.and patients alike working together to scrutinise and advise on policies
:54:23. > :54:27.that are going to have a direct impact on their lives? Yes, that is
:54:28. > :54:31.something I will take away and give consideration to. We do try to
:54:32. > :54:36.consult patient groups and consult organisations that work with patient
:54:37. > :54:39.groups before formulating policy in any area but it is particularly
:54:40. > :54:43.important in health matters and I think probably particularly
:54:44. > :54:46.important when it comes to mental health. We are investing a lot of
:54:47. > :54:50.try and improve mental health services just now. One of the good
:54:51. > :54:54.things I think we should all be positive about is that more and more
:54:55. > :54:58.people come forward for mental health help now because the stigma
:54:59. > :55:01.around it is reducing and that is something that is good but it puts
:55:02. > :55:05.more demand on services, so we have a real obligation to invest but I
:55:06. > :55:09.certainly take your suggestion about looking at how we formalise the
:55:10. > :55:11.patient input. Just time for one last main question. Could I get a
:55:12. > :55:13.question from Gillian Main? Would the SNP be prepared
:55:14. > :55:16.to compromise on an independence referendum and join a coalition
:55:17. > :55:25.with another party to stop Just to be clear, when you say
:55:26. > :55:30.compromise, what do you mean? Put it on the back burner for the time
:55:31. > :55:32.being. I said my position on an independence referendum, I certainly
:55:33. > :55:37.would want to be part of an alliance, a progressive alliance,
:55:38. > :55:41.the arithmetic and added that would keep the Conservatives out of power.
:55:42. > :55:44.Part of an alliance that would invest in public services and end
:55:45. > :55:48.the cards to the support for the most vulnerable in our society. But
:55:49. > :55:52.if they if they said they could only work with you, that is the question,
:55:53. > :55:56.if they could only work with you if you said no to a referendum not
:55:57. > :56:00.forever but maybe for a period of a parliament? I think that the end of
:56:01. > :56:03.the Brexit process, people in Scotland should have a choice and I
:56:04. > :56:11.have already set out why that is the case. You are losing a lot of votes,
:56:12. > :56:16.I think, from SNP supporters by continuing with the independence
:56:17. > :56:20.referendum at this time. Because? And I will give the First Minister a
:56:21. > :56:23.chance to reply. Some people just don't want it and don't think it is
:56:24. > :56:28.the right time because everything else that is going on. I'm not
:56:29. > :56:34.proposing now, I accept that point. When are you proposing it? At the
:56:35. > :56:39.end of the process. When is the end of the process? I don't know, I am
:56:40. > :56:43.not in charge. You used to be clearer, Spring 2019. Theresa May
:56:44. > :56:46.says the deal will be done before the UK exits and if that is the
:56:47. > :56:49.case, that is the end of the process, we know what the deal is
:56:50. > :56:54.and if it is not the case, clearly that timetable will be longer. She
:56:55. > :57:01.talked of a transitional deal of year or two, 2020, 2021? She talks
:57:02. > :57:05.about a lot of things like that. I think trying to keep up with Theresa
:57:06. > :57:09.May's positions in this election has become quite difficult on a whole
:57:10. > :57:12.range of different things. Can I come back to your point about a
:57:13. > :57:16.progressive alliance, to use that terminology? I would want to be part
:57:17. > :57:20.of that if it was possible but do you know what? I think looking at
:57:21. > :57:23.the polls, the Conservatives are unfortunately still going to win
:57:24. > :57:30.this election but it is no longer inevitable but Theresa May gets a
:57:31. > :57:32.bigger majority and that is a choice of Scotland, do we vote for MPs that
:57:33. > :57:37.stop Theresa May increasing her majority or not? Last very quick
:57:38. > :57:42.question. You say you want independence to take us back into
:57:43. > :57:46.the European Union. Can I ask you whether you would commit here today
:57:47. > :57:52.to the Scottish fisherman that you will not barter away our fishing
:57:53. > :57:58.resources to join the EU or a single market?
:57:59. > :58:03.APPLAUSE I and the SNP and people before me
:58:04. > :58:06.in the SNP have argued against the Common Fisheries Policy, we have
:58:07. > :58:10.argued for it to be scrapped or fundamentally reformed. It is the
:58:11. > :58:13.Tories time after time that a sold-out Scottish fisherman and
:58:14. > :58:14.believe it, they are shaping up to do it all over again. Thank you very
:58:15. > :58:23.much, I'm afraid you are right time. Ladies and gentlemen, thanks to
:58:24. > :58:28.Nicola Sturgeon. APPLAUSE
:58:29. > :58:32.That is all we have got time for tonight.
:58:33. > :58:34.Question Time and David are back on Friday,
:58:35. > :58:41.the night after the election, for a special programme.
:58:42. > :58:44.Until then, from us here in Edinburgh, from me and the First
:58:45. > :59:12.Minister, thank you for watching. I want to know...
:59:13. > :59:17...what will happen next. And I want to know...
:59:18. > :59:20...what it all means...