:00:00. > :00:23.On our panel, the man who ran Theresa May's campaign
:00:24. > :00:27.for the Tory leadership, Transport Secretary Chris Grayling.
:00:28. > :00:31.Labour's Shadow Attorney General, Shami Chakrabarti.
:00:32. > :00:34.The author and former political editor of the Sunday Times
:00:35. > :00:39.The comedy writer who created the TV series The Thick
:00:40. > :00:45.And the man often thought to have inspired the belligerent spin
:00:46. > :00:47.doctor, Malcolm Tucker, Tony Blair's former spokesman,
:00:48. > :01:11.Thank you very much, good to see you all here.
:01:12. > :01:13.Join in at home using Twitter and Facebook.
:01:14. > :01:16.Or text 83981 and push the red button to see
:01:17. > :01:23.Our first question comes from Toni-Marie Jarvis.
:01:24. > :01:25.Last night showed Theresa May has no mandate, should she resign?
:01:26. > :01:37.Alastair Campbell. She has a mandate in she has been to see the Queen and
:01:38. > :01:41.the Queen has agreed she should form a government and she has decided to
:01:42. > :01:49.form a government propped up by the DUP in Northern Ireland. I would
:01:50. > :01:54.ask, does she has any authority? I would say she has lost authority by
:01:55. > :01:57.taking an enormous gamble, for entirely party and selfish
:01:58. > :02:04.interests, and putting the country into possibly a period of mere
:02:05. > :02:13.chaos. Also I am really worried about the deal that she has done to
:02:14. > :02:17.stay in power, because the DUP are a party in Northern Ireland that did
:02:18. > :02:23.very well in the election, but one of the most important things that is
:02:24. > :02:27.at some risk at the moment because of the chaos and confusion in our
:02:28. > :02:31.politics is the Northern Ireland peace process and the Good Friday
:02:32. > :02:36.Agreement. She has gone into bed with a party from which previous
:02:37. > :02:40.governments, including the government led by John Major, have
:02:41. > :02:48.always stayed neutral. I am not going to stop you, we will be coming
:02:49. > :02:52.to that. Should she resign? She does not have to resign, she can govern,
:02:53. > :02:55.but I do not think she will be able to govern for a long and because she
:02:56. > :03:04.has fundamentally weakened herself in the eyes of the public and the
:03:05. > :03:08.party, and also at a time we are going into the most important
:03:09. > :03:12.negotiations of any Prime Minister since the Second World War she is
:03:13. > :03:24.losing authority in the eyes of those she will have to negotiate
:03:25. > :03:29.with. I think she is bust and flash. Chris Grayling. No, she should not
:03:30. > :03:33.resign. You have to remember first of all we want the most seats. She
:03:34. > :03:38.won the largest vote share that a Conservative Prime Minister has won
:03:39. > :03:43.in a generation. She won more votes than Tony Blair did in 1997. What
:03:44. > :03:48.has happened is the votes have fallen in a different way and we
:03:49. > :03:51.have ended with a narrow result. I am disappointed we did not do
:03:52. > :03:56.better, but she commands more members of Parliament today than all
:03:57. > :04:04.of the other parties except the DUP and Sinn Fein together. Not only
:04:05. > :04:08.must she not resign, we need to move forward and we need to go into the
:04:09. > :04:11.Brexit negotiations and we have to deliver the right outcome for
:04:12. > :04:14.Britain and as the person who commands the largest bloc in
:04:15. > :04:19.parliament it is right she should stay. She should stay for the entire
:04:20. > :04:24.duration of the Parliament? Will she fight the next election? That is a
:04:25. > :04:29.question for her, but my view is she says Prime Minister for the
:04:30. > :04:35.foreseeable future. You supported her as leader of the party, so you
:04:36. > :04:38.must have a view as to having lost a majority, having gambled on the
:04:39. > :04:44.election, she should now fight the next election for the Tories, or is
:04:45. > :04:47.it just an interim Prime Minister? I am talking about somebody who
:04:48. > :04:51.commands the biggest bloc in parliament as we start the most
:04:52. > :04:55.important negotiations in a generation. The last thing anybody
:04:56. > :05:01.should be doing is should she be here and discussing should she be
:05:02. > :05:07.here for the next few months or whatever. Why should it not be
:05:08. > :05:14.discussed? We need to get on with it and deliver a stable outcome for
:05:15. > :05:20.Great Britain. Shami Chakrabarti. It was extraordinary arrogance and
:05:21. > :05:25.having promised people there would be no snap election to call the
:05:26. > :05:28.election, presumably because she had made a calculation, no doubt on
:05:29. > :05:34.advice that she would get a landslide. She took it for granted.
:05:35. > :05:38.I found the way that she conducted her campaign to people for granted
:05:39. > :05:42.as well, including not doing debates, including the very negative
:05:43. > :05:49.campaigning which we have come to associate with Mr Crosby who ran a
:05:50. > :05:53.really nasty smear campaign. Should she go? You are describing a
:05:54. > :05:58.campaign that has been very much described. Should she go? Other
:05:59. > :06:04.senior Conservatives like Anna Soubry have been saying she should
:06:05. > :06:10.consider her position. She should say that because she lost her seat.
:06:11. > :06:13.This is an absolute disaster. It is a disaster, but it is not a question
:06:14. > :06:18.of whether she should resign, she actually cannot resign. You have to
:06:19. > :06:24.think through the mechanics of what would happen now if there was a Tory
:06:25. > :06:29.contest. There is not a coronation, there is nobody waiting in the wings
:06:30. > :06:33.to be an amazing leader, we are stuck with her. We cannot afford
:06:34. > :06:37.weeks of the Tories having a conversation about who they want
:06:38. > :06:41.while the clock ticks on the Brexit negotiations. It is not very
:06:42. > :06:51.inspiring leadership. I hear what you say. We are where we are. Anna
:06:52. > :06:57.Soubry did not lose her seat. She has many colleagues who lost her
:06:58. > :07:00.seat. You, sir. She is clearly incompetent and there are U-turns at
:07:01. > :07:04.every opportunity and I would much rather have a leader who knew what
:07:05. > :07:12.they were doing and was consistent with the public. The man at the
:07:13. > :07:18.back. The election campaign was about Brexit. When will we move on
:07:19. > :07:21.to Brexit instead of talking about the new leadership campaign? Let's
:07:22. > :07:28.get on and move on and get Brexit out of the way. You think this
:07:29. > :07:33.election was about Brexit? Yes. What was the evidence for that? It was a
:07:34. > :07:40.strong and stable government and she wanted a majority. But she did not
:07:41. > :07:43.get it. She said was that she needed more votes and more seeds as if 27
:07:44. > :07:51.other countries would be more frightened of her because she had
:07:52. > :07:58.more seats. That not happen. I agree she should not resign today. That
:07:59. > :08:03.will happen in such good time now. But it is what she did today given
:08:04. > :08:08.the position she is in. In a crisis you find that the metal of someone.
:08:09. > :08:13.Today she was tone deaf to what happened last night. The votes were
:08:14. > :08:17.split across the country, the parties were split across the
:08:18. > :08:21.country and the mood in the country, especially with all of those
:08:22. > :08:26.participating for the first time, we want some consensus and reaching out
:08:27. > :08:30.to the other parties. What she has done is retreat to my default
:08:31. > :08:36.position and only huddle in with those she thinks will agree with
:08:37. > :08:41.her. She has gone for hard Brexit and the company said no. That has
:08:42. > :08:45.confused us and frighten us and we did not talk about hard Brexit. We
:08:46. > :08:50.want a further discussion. She has gone into number ten with those who
:08:51. > :08:55.will support hard Brexit. It is completely tone deaf to what is
:08:56. > :09:01.going on in the country. Chris Grayling? Tone deaf? I do not think
:09:02. > :09:09.so. But we have to learn lessons, we did not do as well as we hoped. Also
:09:10. > :09:14.a lot of members on Parliament on both sides lost their seats last
:09:15. > :09:17.night, a huge shame for them, a huge disappointment because we lost many
:09:18. > :09:24.valuable colleagues. We must learn lessons. What lessons must you
:09:25. > :09:27.learn? We need to look back at the campaign and the messages and think
:09:28. > :09:32.about how we make sure in the future we do better than last night. Can
:09:33. > :09:38.you pick out any particular element in the campaign that needs to be
:09:39. > :09:41.investigated? Where do you start? We have to get on with the Brexit
:09:42. > :09:46.negotiations and deliver the right result. Why did you not learned the
:09:47. > :09:51.lesson of what the DUP did in the last few years, which is go into
:09:52. > :09:54.partnership with the Sinn Fein. There are other parties she could
:09:55. > :10:00.have spoken to. If Brexit is the biggest issue, why did you not read
:10:01. > :10:04.out to other parties and say, I have got the message, we are divided, why
:10:05. > :10:19.can't we have an all-party agreement? The women in pink. She
:10:20. > :10:23.was never passionate about Brexit. She is never going to be able to
:10:24. > :10:28.negotiate with any conviction. What should she do? She needs to stay for
:10:29. > :10:35.the continuity of the government and the country, but she will push out
:10:36. > :10:41.if she does not go voluntarily. And Toni-Marie Jarvis, what is your
:10:42. > :10:45.view? I think she should resign. I expect to two. She only called an
:10:46. > :10:49.election to validate herself as Prime Minister and she has ended up
:10:50. > :10:55.with a hung parliament, she does not have a Tory majority any more. I
:10:56. > :10:58.feel like that her failure. There are a number of hands up. Let's
:10:59. > :11:04.stick with the topic but have a different angle on it.
:11:05. > :11:06.How can the Conservatives align themselves with a party whose values
:11:07. > :11:18.She is a minority government and she has said she will do a deal with the
:11:19. > :11:23.DUP. Let's have a look at that. Alastair Campbell, do you want to
:11:24. > :11:28.emphasise the point you made before? I have a worry about this. When John
:11:29. > :11:33.Major was weak and he could have done a deal with the DUP he
:11:34. > :11:38.absolutely steadfastly for very good, principled reasons said, I am
:11:39. > :11:44.not doing that. He did not want to be in hock to that party. We have a
:11:45. > :11:47.situation in Northern Ireland at the moment where there has been a
:11:48. > :11:51.political crisis, where they are trying to get the administration
:11:52. > :11:55.back-up and where our government is the mediator with the Irish
:11:56. > :11:59.government between the DUP and Sinn Fein. How can our government be the
:12:00. > :12:06.mediator when the DUP are going to be part of our government? She is
:12:07. > :12:11.playing fast and loose on Brexit, with Margaret Thatcher's biggest
:12:12. > :12:16.achievement, the single market, and now with John Major and Tony Blair's
:12:17. > :12:20.greatest achievement, the peace process in Northern Ireland. She is
:12:21. > :12:30.putting that at risk with a sordid, disgraceful and dangerous deal.
:12:31. > :12:35.Chris Grayling. The first thing is I think that is completely wrong. We
:12:36. > :12:42.have had initial discussions with the DUP. We will see where we end
:12:43. > :12:45.up, but we have got today more seats in the House of commons than Labour,
:12:46. > :12:50.the Liberal Democrats, the SNP, the Green Party and the Welsh nationals
:12:51. > :12:55.put together. Only Sinn Fein and the DUP take you over the halfway line.
:12:56. > :12:59.We will have sensible conversations with the DUP. They are in power in
:13:00. > :13:04.Northern Ireland and are used to working with other parties and they
:13:05. > :13:10.work alongside all the other parties in the assembly. They have long
:13:11. > :13:15.experience of working with other parties and there is nothing unusual
:13:16. > :13:20.in today's Britain about that. We do not have to agree with everything
:13:21. > :13:24.they say. But what do you say to Alastair's point which is how can
:13:25. > :13:31.you broker the peace between two sides when one side is propping you
:13:32. > :13:37.up? You are in hock to one side. And they are the only pro-Brexit party
:13:38. > :13:41.in Northern Ireland. Can I read you Theresa May said in 2015 about the
:13:42. > :13:46.possibility of a Labour and SNP deal. I think people are genuinely
:13:47. > :13:49.concerned about the prospect of the SNP calling the shots in
:13:50. > :13:54.constitutional terms. They would be called by somebody who would not
:13:55. > :13:58.even be in Parliament, meaning Nicola Sturgeon. The leader of the
:13:59. > :14:06.DUP is not in Parliament. Game, set and match.
:14:07. > :14:10.APPLAUSE We are in early stages of
:14:11. > :14:17.discussions. What have you said so far? I am not going to comment on
:14:18. > :14:21.that on live television. It is not about democracy. We will not have
:14:22. > :14:25.that discussion here tonight. We will leave it to the Prime Minister
:14:26. > :14:32.and the DUP to decide how best they might work together. It would be
:14:33. > :14:36.incredibly unfortunate if one of the terrible prices for this absolute
:14:37. > :14:41.cock up by Theresa May was any kind of risk to the peaceful situation in
:14:42. > :14:47.Northern Ireland and all the hard work that has gone into that. But,
:14:48. > :14:51.and it is a big but, we are aware we are. When you go into some kind of
:14:52. > :14:55.agreement with another party compromises have to be made. I would
:14:56. > :14:59.like to see the focus on where we are today and where we are going in
:15:00. > :15:04.the future rather than raking over the past of the various characters
:15:05. > :15:10.involved. The woman there and somebody over there. Surely one of
:15:11. > :15:13.the issues is that it is a problem with our political system today.
:15:14. > :15:19.Rather than people working together on what is one of the most serious
:15:20. > :15:23.issues facing us, Brexit, and all the parties working together, people
:15:24. > :15:26.are forced into these alliances which are truly unsuitable, but they
:15:27. > :15:37.have no other choice. This is the whole point about
:15:38. > :15:42.Theresa May's approach to the referendum, to Brexit. She came out
:15:43. > :15:45.of the referendum, I don't agree with the lady, I think she's a
:15:46. > :15:51.Brexiteer who pretended to be a Remainer. She's decided to align
:15:52. > :15:55.herself with the 48% and the 52% can get lost and that's how she's
:15:56. > :15:59.pursuing the hard Brexit policy. You sir, in the blue shirt, and you come
:16:00. > :16:03.up there. I'm old enough to remember when it was the Conservative and
:16:04. > :16:08.Unionist party, so I don't understand why the DUP are being
:16:09. > :16:18.painted as such aliens. Aren't they just Irish Conservatives and always
:16:19. > :16:21.have been? That the Unionist party, who won no seats, but the DUP is
:16:22. > :16:29.more X-Trail. Two arguments we've heard that I want is to be aware of.
:16:30. > :16:32.One is to say the Conservatives have the largest number of seats and
:16:33. > :16:34.votes and therefore they are entitled to govern is exactly the
:16:35. > :16:41.argument that Nicola Sturgeon news last night in Scotland and all the
:16:42. > :16:44.rhetoric coming from London is that doesn't work. She lost. So you can't
:16:45. > :16:48.apply that argument of the Conservative Party at the same time.
:16:49. > :16:53.There has to be a reaching out the aren't just the Conservatives and
:16:54. > :16:57.the DUP to a wider consensus. I want to question the premises behind the
:16:58. > :16:59.question. There hasn't been a deal. That's the problem. She formed a
:17:00. > :17:04.government without arranging anything with the DUP, which means
:17:05. > :17:11.they can ask for anything and she's the one who thinks best placed to
:17:12. > :17:14.Brexit. It's a minority government, not even a coalition with the DUP
:17:15. > :17:17.where they can set out a joint store. The leader of the DUP said
:17:18. > :17:21.she wanted to operate and work in a way that gave us stability for the
:17:22. > :17:25.future and that surely is what we want. We go into the Brexit
:17:26. > :17:31.negotiations, we want to be able to govern properly and deliver the
:17:32. > :17:35.right outcome for Britain. The young man in blue there. Appoint Chris
:17:36. > :17:39.Grayling, surely this is supply and demand. This is not a coalition in
:17:40. > :17:46.any way. How can you be confident that the DUP will stay? You think
:17:47. > :17:50.it's a perilous deal to make in the first place. I think it will all be
:17:51. > :17:55.over in six months. They hold the revolver, let's be clear about that.
:17:56. > :17:59.They hold the revolver. Chris Grayling. We are in the earliest
:18:00. > :18:02.stages of the discussion so I don't think it's possible to say what the
:18:03. > :18:07.agreement is, we've had initial discussions. The DUP have said they
:18:08. > :18:10.want to help secure the stability of government and I'm grateful to them
:18:11. > :18:15.for saying that but we have to work through discussions about how that
:18:16. > :18:18.might work. Might not happen. I had a lot of dealings with the DUP
:18:19. > :18:22.working on the peace process. They are tough. They will drive a hard
:18:23. > :18:26.bargain and like the 20s and leaders in Europe they have seen they are
:18:27. > :18:30.not dealing with someone who is strong and stable, they are dealing
:18:31. > :18:33.with someone who caves and they will have her around their little finger
:18:34. > :18:39.and frankly they've already got her bare by the speed with which she's
:18:40. > :18:42.done that today. I wonder what the alternative is. I thought it was
:18:43. > :18:45.extraordinary to see Jeremy Corbyn saying this morning he was ready to
:18:46. > :18:56.lead the country. APPLAUSE
:18:57. > :19:05.Finish your point. He had almost 60 less seats than the Conservatives,
:19:06. > :19:08.so how can he possibly have the moral or numerical right to do that.
:19:09. > :19:13.Shami. APPLAUSE
:19:14. > :19:17.Quite clear on the constitutional position, which is that Theresa May
:19:18. > :19:20.has the most seats and she is the incumbent Prime Minister. It's for
:19:21. > :19:25.her to have the first attempt at forming this government, but he was
:19:26. > :19:29.also right as the Leader of the Opposition on the ascendance, who
:19:30. > :19:37.effectively won, if anybody won that election it was him. She got 200 and
:19:38. > :19:43.60 seats... given what he's achieved. Fine. Let Shami have her
:19:44. > :19:48.say. APPLAUSE
:19:49. > :19:53.Explain his victory. He's just right constitutionally to say if she is
:19:54. > :19:56.unable to form a government, it's his duty as Leader of the Opposition
:19:57. > :20:00.to attempt to form an alternative government and he's right in that.
:20:01. > :20:05.I'm sure were all very grateful but it doesn't mean anything, does it?
:20:06. > :20:10.you can be as sarcastic as you like... When the coalition started
:20:11. > :20:15.Gordon Brown was the incumbent Prime Minister, didn't have the numbers to
:20:16. > :20:19.form a majority and yes, there was a process of five days. They didn't
:20:20. > :20:26.have to wrap it up in ten minutes. What should she do? She shouldn't
:20:27. > :20:28.have rushed into this. What's the alternative? The alternative was to
:20:29. > :20:31.signal a different approach to Brexit. To have indicated that she
:20:32. > :20:36.could have talked to the other parties. I hope now that Shami's
:20:37. > :20:41.leader, that Jeremy Corbyn, will step into that space and say, we can
:20:42. > :20:47.start to try to put together with the other parties and understanding
:20:48. > :20:50.of what we're doing with Brexit. On the step of Number Ten today, she
:20:51. > :20:54.said what she said at the start, only I can deliver this, I've got a
:20:55. > :20:57.mandate, even though I've lost the majority, back to work. The woman in
:20:58. > :21:02.the third row. APPLAUSE
:21:03. > :21:06.Taking this back to the DUP, Chris just said there's nothing unusual
:21:07. > :21:10.about parties working together. What is unusual is that we have a party
:21:11. > :21:15.like the DUP, which is anti-same-sex marriage, which denies climate
:21:16. > :21:20.change at the forefront of British politics, and I am absolutely
:21:21. > :21:22.petrified at the prospect of such a coalition of chaos, I'm worried
:21:23. > :21:25.about the direction they'll take our country. I'm terrified about that.
:21:26. > :21:36.APPLAUSE Chris Grayling. Accurate description
:21:37. > :21:39.of the DUP? Parties work together often disagreeing significantly
:21:40. > :21:43.about issues that are important one or the other. Sinn Fein and the DUP
:21:44. > :21:47.worked side-by-side in Northern Ireland and the administration. We
:21:48. > :21:51.were with the Liberal Democrats for five years, we didn't always agree.
:21:52. > :21:55.I fundamentally disagree with the DUP about same-sex marriage but it's
:21:56. > :21:59.part of the way of life in England, Wales and Scotland. Not in Northern
:22:00. > :22:05.Ireland yet. I suspect it will be in due course. See sheds -- she said
:22:06. > :22:14.she wanted to govern in the national interest, which sounds slightly
:22:15. > :22:17.conciliatory, it it sounds like a consensus, she has a dysfunction
:22:18. > :22:19.between what she says and what she does. She's not going to call an
:22:20. > :22:22.election, she's going to call an election. She's going to speak with
:22:23. > :22:28.everyone, no, she will huddle with the DUP. You, with the beard, behind
:22:29. > :22:31.their and another question. The DUP is nonsense is usually confined to
:22:32. > :22:35.Ben France -- Belfast and the Northern Ireland at the thought of
:22:36. > :22:40.it having a global platform in a coalition is terrifying. What price
:22:41. > :22:44.do you think the DUP will be asking Mr Grayling and his colleagues to
:22:45. > :22:47.pay? They are pretty pro-Brexit, the thought of a hard border in Ireland
:22:48. > :22:53.gain is also pretty upsetting. They are pro-Brexit and the sake of
:22:54. > :22:59.frictionless border. Non-others want a hard border in Ireland. Between
:23:00. > :23:04.Northern Ireland and the Republican. Nor does the European Union, and I'm
:23:05. > :23:08.very confident we will end up with an arrangement that makes sure that
:23:09. > :23:12.doesn't happen. A man in pale blue, in the third row from the back. What
:23:13. > :23:15.does the panel think of the argument that the reason Theresa May called
:23:16. > :23:20.for the election to get a great majority was stopped the hard
:23:21. > :23:24.Brexiteers in the ranks of the Tory party from forcing... ? To give
:23:25. > :23:28.herself a big enough majority. We'll take a question. Jonathan Dowkes.
:23:29. > :23:33.Will 9th June 2017 be remembered as the day Brexit died?
:23:34. > :23:43.Wow. Armando Iannucci she -- Armando Iannucci. There's a last-minute gasp
:23:44. > :23:48.of Nexit resuscitation today. We didn't vote for hard Brexit. We
:23:49. > :23:54.voted for Brexit. I agree with that. I disagree on the campaign to have
:23:55. > :23:57.another referendum. It insults the 52% who voted for Brexit. But we
:23:58. > :24:01.didn't vote for the specifics. We didn't decide what kind of Brexit we
:24:02. > :24:04.wanted, what we wanted to do with our borders, all those have to be
:24:05. > :24:10.discussed. My beef with Theresa May is that having gone to the country
:24:11. > :24:15.to discuss Brexit, but then refused to do so, but talk about the beans
:24:16. > :24:18.with her husband on the one show instead, and therefore to keep quiet
:24:19. > :24:21.on the one thing she wanted to have a conversation with is about, I
:24:22. > :24:26.think now it's incumbent on her to open up and to say it didn't work.
:24:27. > :24:29.This country is not a hard Brexit supporting country and one
:24:30. > :24:33.alternative I do suggest, I'm just throwing it out there, is if we do
:24:34. > :24:39.have a negotiating table laid out with members of the main parties, we
:24:40. > :24:40.put our differences aside for two years, do the deal and have another
:24:41. > :24:49.election instead. APPLAUSE
:24:50. > :24:54.I think there's a really cynical operation under way here on the part
:24:55. > :24:59.of Remainers to try to pretend that last night's result was some kind of
:25:00. > :25:03.verdict on Brexit. Now, although Theresa May called the election
:25:04. > :25:07.ostensibly to get a greater mandate on Brexit, one of the weird things
:25:08. > :25:11.about the campaign is that Brexit was hardly talked about at all and
:25:12. > :25:16.in fact if you look at the results from last night... They wanted a
:25:17. > :25:21.blank cheque. If you look at the results from last night, some of the
:25:22. > :25:24.largest voices remain, like Nick Clegg, lost their seats. Alistair,
:25:25. > :25:28.you spent much of the campaign moaning about how no one was talking
:25:29. > :25:33.about Brexit so how can you now say that some reason this is now a
:25:34. > :25:37.verdict on Brexit? I'm not saying it was a verdict on Brexit but it was
:25:38. > :25:40.an issue. One of the most extraordinary, I don't know if it's
:25:41. > :25:44.been announced with Kensington and Chelsea, but if Labour win that
:25:45. > :25:51.don't tell me that's... Leiva have wing-macro it. A big pro-remain
:25:52. > :25:58.protest vote. -- Labour have won it. Let's come back to the point the
:25:59. > :26:01.prime ministers said she wanted stable, secure government, in order
:26:02. > :26:06.to negotiate Brexit, so Chris Grayling, she failed to get that.
:26:07. > :26:10.She's in a minority. The question Jonathan Dowkes asked, does that
:26:11. > :26:14.mean there's going to be a change in attitude towards our negotiations
:26:15. > :26:19.with the EU? There are many ways in which you and negotiate with the EU.
:26:20. > :26:24.It doesn't have to be we pull entirely out. Is it going to modify
:26:25. > :26:28.her approach? The question was during the ninth the day Brexit died
:26:29. > :26:35.and it's not at all. -- the 9th of June. You haven't got the numbers. I
:26:36. > :26:40.do not accept... APPLAUSE
:26:41. > :26:44.I don't accept the concept... Anna Soubry is back. Some of the Tories
:26:45. > :26:48.are going to help to stop a hard Brexit because they believe there is
:26:49. > :26:54.no mandate for it. Let Chris Grayling said his stall out. I do
:26:55. > :26:57.not believe in this concept of hard Brexit and soft Brexit.
:26:58. > :27:01.APPLAUSE We voted to leave the European
:27:02. > :27:04.Union. We voted in my view to have the ability to control the flow of
:27:05. > :27:09.people into the United Kingdom. We voted I believe to have good,
:27:10. > :27:11.constructive relations with our European neighbours, to have the
:27:12. > :27:15.competence of free trade agreement. All of that requires us to take the
:27:16. > :27:18.approach the Prime Minister set out. There's no magic alternative way.
:27:19. > :27:22.There's no magic way of staying in the single market and limiting the
:27:23. > :27:25.flow of people into the country. If there's one message that came loud
:27:26. > :27:30.and clear out of the referendum, people want is to have the ability
:27:31. > :27:37.to control the flow of people. What Theresa May has set out as the only
:27:38. > :27:40.realistic way to pursue a deal with the European Union that works for
:27:41. > :27:42.them and us. It's what we want to have. We want a collaborative
:27:43. > :27:44.relationship. We want to work together on Security and defence and
:27:45. > :27:47.a comprehensive free-trade agreement. That's what the
:27:48. > :27:53.overwhelming majority -- majority of people want in this country. What do
:27:54. > :27:57.you think... APPLAUSE
:27:58. > :28:01.What do you think the Labour or the Scottish Conservatives, Ruth
:28:02. > :28:05.Davidson meant, who did so well in Scotland and is so admired by the
:28:06. > :28:09.Conservative Party, when she said in the press conference yesterday, we
:28:10. > :28:16.must seek to deliver an open Brexit, not a closed Brexit. Which puts our
:28:17. > :28:20.country's economic growth first. An open Brexit, not a closed Brexit.
:28:21. > :28:25.Does that mean anything at all? I agree with that. I did not campaign
:28:26. > :28:29.to leave the European Union for this country to become a closed door,
:28:30. > :28:34.erected barricades at Dover, cut ourselves off from the world. What I
:28:35. > :28:37.want is to be as an outward facing, globally focused nation, trading
:28:38. > :28:40.with the world, but I want is outside the political structures and
:28:41. > :28:49.process of integration that is being driven in Brussels. A couple more
:28:50. > :28:55.points. The vote yesterday was a vote telling Brexit because the vote
:28:56. > :29:05.was, the hard Brexit parties got 44%. They got 52 in the last Brexit
:29:06. > :29:13.election. Yet, but, now this time they got 44%. Just so obvious that
:29:14. > :29:21.the campaign was not about Brexit. It was about the UK. Axes vote was
:29:22. > :29:25.about the UK. The whole thing and you squabbling about who wins who
:29:26. > :29:33.loses. The vote yesterday was about the UK and how we govern ourselves
:29:34. > :29:39.and it's not about, Brexit is going to ruin that. It's going to ruin all
:29:40. > :29:47.of the people. It's going to ruin this country. You, sir? I'm losing
:29:48. > :29:50.my way among the hands. The Conservative Party, even for those
:29:51. > :29:56.Remainers who are now committed to the idea, why don't you come clean
:29:57. > :30:03.with some details instead of giving cliches like Brexit means Brexit?
:30:04. > :30:08.APPLAUSE The 12 point plan that Theresa May
:30:09. > :30:12.published, nine out of them are tautological statement. All others
:30:13. > :30:17.have been waiting for months now to come up with some clarity. I was a
:30:18. > :30:18.Remainer, but now I'm committed the idea, gives some details. Do you
:30:19. > :30:31.want to close it, keep it open? Shami Chakrabarti. I think you are
:30:32. > :30:35.onto something. I think Theresa May called that snap election because
:30:36. > :30:40.she thought she would get a landslide. Why did she won a
:30:41. > :30:43.landslide? Not because she wanted to unite people and bring everyone
:30:44. > :30:48.together, but she thought it would give her a blank cheque and cushion
:30:49. > :30:52.her to ram through any kind of deal whether it was popular with the
:30:53. > :30:56.British people or not, and not share the details with us. If it went
:30:57. > :31:17.sour, she thought she would still have a bit of a cushion.
:31:18. > :31:21.That has all gone completely wrong and so yesterday and today she
:31:22. > :31:23.should have been doing as we have been saying this evening. She should
:31:24. > :31:25.have said, I called this election to get greater numbers and greatest
:31:26. > :31:28.strength. That has not happened, I have to bring more people with me. I
:31:29. > :31:33.thought Kensington and Chelsea had declared, it has not yet declared.
:31:34. > :31:38.You have gone to Lala land. I think all parties have a responsibility to
:31:39. > :31:44.reduce the risk that this country is constantly being exposed to. A
:31:45. > :31:49.referendum that we did not need, an election that we did not really
:31:50. > :31:54.need, constant risk and the risk and uncertainty the country is being
:31:55. > :31:57.exposed to. Every party now has a responsibility to get rid of that
:31:58. > :32:06.risk and getting the country back on the road. By doing what? That is my
:32:07. > :32:11.question, what are they going to do? Last night the vast majority of
:32:12. > :32:16.people who voted voted for parties that said we want to leave the
:32:17. > :32:21.European Union. Both the Tory and the Labour manifesto pledge to leave
:32:22. > :32:33.the EU, so let's not rewrite that. The Labour manifesto said it wanted
:32:34. > :32:39.an end to pre-movement. But she said this election was about Brexit and
:32:40. > :32:45.she did not discuss it. She said every single vote was in my hand
:32:46. > :32:53.these negotiations. She has now lost the authority to negotiate. Brexit
:32:54. > :32:56.was discussed with the leader of the campaign and the reason she called
:32:57. > :33:03.the election was she found herself in the position of being accused of
:33:04. > :33:12.not having a personal mandate as Prime Minister. Can we follow the
:33:13. > :33:15.logic of this? If she went to the country looking for an endorsement
:33:16. > :33:20.on her views on Brexit and she lost her majority, surely she has lost
:33:21. > :33:28.the endorsement of the country for her views on Brexit? She is the
:33:29. > :33:34.Prime Minister with the largest block of members in the House of
:33:35. > :33:40.Commons with 43% of the vote in a Parliament that voted overwhelmingly
:33:41. > :33:44.for Brexit. She said, if I lose six seats, Jeremy Corbyn will be Prime
:33:45. > :33:48.Minister. Well he isn't, so get over it. We have got other things to talk
:33:49. > :33:52.about it. The details of how to
:33:53. > :34:00.apply are on the screen. Let's take another question and put
:34:01. > :34:13.the boot on another foot, James Why are Labour happy
:34:14. > :34:30.about losing another election? Good question. We are clearly not
:34:31. > :34:40.happy about losing another election, but people in this country have
:34:41. > :34:43.shown an appetite for change. I personally think there is something
:34:44. > :34:48.quite extraordinary that has happened over the past seven weeks
:34:49. > :34:52.when you had all the commentary and Theresa May and her colleagues
:34:53. > :34:57.completely dismissing Jeremy Corbyn's leadership, the whole
:34:58. > :35:02.party, it was all a joke, it was going to be a complete disaster, we
:35:03. > :35:08.would be annihilated. Look what happened. We got some fair coverage
:35:09. > :35:11.in the broadcast media. There was even a certain David Dimbleby who
:35:12. > :35:17.said in the campaign there had not been fair treatment of the Labour
:35:18. > :35:22.leadership in the media. You get a British electorate campaign which is
:35:23. > :35:30.something to be proud of. But you lost. Of course we did. Isabel
:35:31. > :35:35.thinks I am running away from the reality. Of course we lost, but we
:35:36. > :35:39.made some games and we ran a positive campaign and we did as well
:35:40. > :35:42.as we did because we were not attacking people and calling their
:35:43. > :35:49.character into question and calling them names. We ran a positive
:35:50. > :35:55.campaign with an incredibly popular manifesto. Yes, it was about the NHS
:35:56. > :35:58.and getting rid of tuition fees and treating the elderly well. Our
:35:59. > :36:09.manifesto was popular and theirs was not. You, sir. Not only did you lose
:36:10. > :36:15.this election, but what has happened is Labour has made the situation
:36:16. > :36:21.into uncertainty and confusion. Because we did too well? What
:36:22. > :36:27.happened is nobody believed you were going to win, but you stole the
:36:28. > :36:38.votes and it is a complete mess now. Alastair Campbell. A proper English
:36:39. > :36:52.centres, it is like a dog in a manger. Do not win and do not let
:36:53. > :36:53.anybody else when and that is what Jeremy Corbyn is doing. That is a
:36:54. > :36:54.very strange view of democracy. Kensington and Chelsea has now been
:36:55. > :36:57.declared and Labour has taken that seat.
:36:58. > :37:03.CHEERING Alastair Campbell.
:37:04. > :37:07.We have a balanced audience. Let's hear from those who think that is an
:37:08. > :37:19.error. That is the spirit, thank you. I work with the government in
:37:20. > :37:23.the Socialist party in Albania which has a general election on. Somebody
:37:24. > :37:28.in the party set me a message today, they were watching our election on
:37:29. > :37:32.television, and they said why are the winners looking like losers and
:37:33. > :37:38.the losers looking like winners? It echoes what you are saying. The
:37:39. > :37:41.answer is about expectations. Theresa May called this election,
:37:42. > :37:45.utterly convinced she was going to get a landslide and she has not.
:37:46. > :37:51.Jeremy Corbyn went into this election with a lot of critics,
:37:52. > :37:56.myself included, and your former paper, the Daily Mail pouring more
:37:57. > :37:59.dirt on him than we had. I was literally counting the minutes until
:38:00. > :38:07.you were going to have to go at that paper. It is so boring. It is a
:38:08. > :38:17.really poisonous paper, that is why. CHEERING
:38:18. > :38:21.And what is more, Alastair, they buy it.
:38:22. > :38:27.They may buy it, but if that is all you care about, that is fine. I have
:38:28. > :38:30.had a lot of criticism in my time and I still have doubts about the
:38:31. > :38:34.way the Labour Party is going, we still have to build a coalition to
:38:35. > :38:39.get back into power and I am never happy when Labour lose and I want
:38:40. > :38:45.Labour back in power. What is it you want to do to change? It seems that
:38:46. > :38:50.people like you in the Labour Party I thinking huge spending, get rid of
:38:51. > :38:55.the deficit, give the students free tuition. You cannot afford it, it is
:38:56. > :39:01.Labour giving presents to the voters. What do you want them to do?
:39:02. > :39:06.Do you want Jeremy Corbyn to stay? He ran a very good campaign and he
:39:07. > :39:14.showed whereas Theresa May cannot campaign, he can campaign and he has
:39:15. > :39:20.strengthened his position. So you will just keep on campaigning? The
:39:21. > :39:26.whole Blair and Brown era, people still focus on it, but I want the
:39:27. > :39:29.Labour Party to get back where we are an opposition that understands
:39:30. > :39:34.the challenges facing the country and understands that nobody ever
:39:35. > :39:38.wins from a section of the electorate, you have to go abroad
:39:39. > :39:45.and white. The other thing I would like to see Jeremy Corbyn do is now,
:39:46. > :39:49.and this idea that he was not remotely prime ministerial, I think
:39:50. > :39:54.he can step up on the question of Brexit by doing what Theresa May is
:39:55. > :39:58.refusing to do, and that is to start to reach out and talk to other
:39:59. > :40:02.parties. I wish we could get over this old Tony Blair and the factions
:40:03. > :40:07.and the rest of it and start cementing the Labour Party. You wish
:40:08. > :40:13.that, but you have been stirring it up all these years. Since the second
:40:14. > :40:18.leadership election most of the critics have shut up and got on with
:40:19. > :40:23.it. What has been shown is Jeremy Corbyn has been able to energise
:40:24. > :40:27.people. But it was quite a small swing and there is a lot more to do
:40:28. > :40:30.to get the Labour Party back as a party of government with a credible
:40:31. > :40:37.government that these people would vote for. Chris Grayling. Would you
:40:38. > :40:40.and Tony Blair have been comfortable proposing to the country this
:40:41. > :40:45.manifesto with all the economics behind it and all the issues about
:40:46. > :40:49.borrowing and the extra cost on taxation? Would you be comfortable
:40:50. > :40:52.with a huge increase in corporate taxes just at the moment we are
:40:53. > :41:03.leaving the European Union and we want to attract more business? I
:41:04. > :41:08.voted for it. I voted for it and I know Tony Blair voted for it. Would
:41:09. > :41:14.we have done that in 2001-2005? I suspect we would not have done it.
:41:15. > :41:20.But I suspect the Labour Party is onto something at the moment. And
:41:21. > :41:25.this is the big thing, people are sick of austerity and being told
:41:26. > :41:32.there is no other way. The man in the fifth row. Fire away. I think
:41:33. > :41:38.the only reason that Labour did so well was because Jeremy Corbyn was
:41:39. > :41:44.offering the Earth, the world, which he could not cost. Every time they
:41:45. > :41:49.were asked they did not have an answer. Jeremy Corbyn and Diane
:41:50. > :41:57.Abbott could not answer when they were asked questions about costing.
:41:58. > :42:05.That is why he did well? The voters are gullible, they do not respect
:42:06. > :42:14.those who vote for them. He could not afford it. But we can afford it.
:42:15. > :42:19.Armando Iannucci. What politicians do in the next 24 hours is crucial.
:42:20. > :42:24.I hope Jeremy Corbyn does not fall back into his default that what he
:42:25. > :42:28.has is a protest movement and he had a fantastic rally and it would be
:42:29. > :42:33.great if we did another one next Saturday and let's keep going. I
:42:34. > :42:41.would like to see him acting as Leader of the Opposition and
:42:42. > :42:48.opposing. That means taking his talent in parliament and his MPs and
:42:49. > :42:56.reaching out to those and others like Chuka Umunna and Yvette Cooper.
:42:57. > :43:00.It also means reaching out to other parties. If you look at it, Labour
:43:01. > :43:04.put their heart and soul into this election and they got a tremendous
:43:05. > :43:10.amount of new voters and we still did not do it. That is because the
:43:11. > :43:14.system is broken. We have had a tiny minority governments for the last
:43:15. > :43:18.three elections and we have never had a sizeable majority for the last
:43:19. > :43:22.15 years and the Tories have not had one for the last 30 years. It means
:43:23. > :43:28.parties will have to speak to each other. Where Jeremy Corbyn did
:43:29. > :43:32.resonate with voters is in authenticity. One of the problems
:43:33. > :43:38.with Theresa May's campaign issue came across as very robotic. If you
:43:39. > :43:43.behave like a robot when the voters are going to vote for a clown
:43:44. > :43:50.instead, and let's be honest... BOOING
:43:51. > :43:56.Jeremy Corbyn failed last night and we should not get carried away and a
:43:57. > :44:00.lot of Tories will be happy if he stays on for the next five years
:44:01. > :44:06.because he will fail again because he is not electable.
:44:07. > :44:10.The gentleman there. Just a minute ago members of the panel were very
:44:11. > :44:15.disrespectful to the people of Northern Ireland when you are
:44:16. > :44:19.slagging off the DUP. The DUP represent those people, so now I am
:44:20. > :44:26.going to slag off all the people who voted for Jeremy Corbyn. There have
:44:27. > :44:31.not been any cuts. Every year public expenditure is going up ten or 20
:44:32. > :44:37.billion. There has not been any austerity. The government spends an
:44:38. > :44:52.enormous amount. It goes up every year. Jeremy Corbyn is a very angry,
:44:53. > :44:55.misguided person who does not believe it. David Cameron was
:44:56. > :45:04.reassuringly dishonest. Chris Grayling, I really reassuringly
:45:05. > :45:09.dishonest character, David Cameron. 20 billion a year, the government
:45:10. > :45:13.expenditure goes up. It is the case if you take the example of the NHS,
:45:14. > :45:19.we increase the budget every year and we always have in government and
:45:20. > :45:23.we always will. The Conservative Party has been in power the majority
:45:24. > :45:27.of time the NHS has been in existence and we have looked after
:45:28. > :45:32.it and funded it. We put more money into it every year.
:45:33. > :45:37.I think there's a considerable amount of difference between someone
:45:38. > :45:41.that's good at campaigning and someone that can actually form a
:45:42. > :45:47.government and lead the country. At softer Jeremy Corbyn. He's a nice
:45:48. > :45:53.guy. He's a good campaign. -- hats off to Jeremy Corbyn. He's more
:45:54. > :45:56.sincere than Theresa May. But when it comes to who is going to leave
:45:57. > :46:01.the country and managed the Brexit negotiations, I think it puts a lot
:46:02. > :46:05.more into context. I don't think, I can't see Labour going into
:46:06. > :46:08.government with him as leader. Is it better to put in charge of Brexit
:46:09. > :46:13.negotiations someone like Theresa May, who does a deal with the DUP
:46:14. > :46:18.without actually knowing what it is? You have to remember she's still got
:46:19. > :46:20.the largest party in government. Her majority is reduced but she's
:46:21. > :46:25.increased temperature against Jeremy Corbyn. She reduced the number of
:46:26. > :46:31.seats but she still got the majority and with the DUP. Am not arguing
:46:32. > :46:32.with the maths. I was arguing with her competence.
:46:33. > :46:37.APPLAUSE The woman in the front. Do you think
:46:38. > :46:46.if there had been left anti-Semitism in the Labour Party from people like
:46:47. > :46:52.Corbyn and perhaps you, Baroness Chakravarty, then Corbyn would be in
:46:53. > :46:57.power? In government? Do you want to answer that? I said everything I
:46:58. > :47:00.have to say about that. There have been problems of racism and
:47:01. > :47:06.anti-Semitism in the Labour Party and in Britain, in the parties as
:47:07. > :47:10.well, but I don't really, I don't think I can attribute the election
:47:11. > :47:16.result to those issues. I really don't. You might, but I really
:47:17. > :47:19.don't. Just to answer. There were a lot of conflicted people who judged
:47:20. > :47:23.people who were unsure because of this. I'm sad to hear that but I
:47:24. > :47:27.think were able to move forward together now. I made some
:47:28. > :47:30.recommendations about how people ought to treat each other and I feel
:47:31. > :47:35.that an appetite for taking this forward. The gentleman who said
:47:36. > :47:40.Jeremy Corbyn is a great guy and he's decent and authentic, he's a
:47:41. > :47:43.campaigner, but he's not a leader. I'd ask you to question what you
:47:44. > :47:45.think leadership is, if it isn't about values and it isn't about
:47:46. > :47:53.authenticity. APPLAUSE
:47:54. > :47:56.It's certainly not attending a vigil for IRA terrorists and bombers that
:47:57. > :48:01.attack innocent people for their own political gain. You have to be able
:48:02. > :48:05.to lead your own Parliamentary party. Has your party provided
:48:06. > :48:12.high-quality opposition in last year, Shami? That's a no.
:48:13. > :48:16.APPLAUSE I've got to respond to that. You
:48:17. > :48:21.make a point about divided political parties and how they are not going
:48:22. > :48:24.to be effective, either in government or opposition, that's
:48:25. > :48:27.clear, but during this campaign is another thing that has gone really
:48:28. > :48:36.well for us has been the unity of the party. I look forward to seeing
:48:37. > :48:41.how that plays out,. So do I, obviously. I agree with Isabel
:48:42. > :48:45.Oakeshott, Jeremy Corbyn had the best chance yesterday to take
:48:46. > :48:49.advantage of Theresa May's weaknesses, a poor campaign, and he
:48:50. > :48:54.blew it, he failed. APPLAUSE
:48:55. > :48:58.. You, sir? You talk about credibility of leadership. How can
:48:59. > :49:03.he have any credibility with reference to Theresa May to really
:49:04. > :49:07.think that she can debate, negotiate and extemporised with EU ministers
:49:08. > :49:11.and leaders, when she completely avoided the debating platform in the
:49:12. > :49:17.campaign? What kind of leadership does not show?
:49:18. > :49:23.APPLAUSE Let's, turn, we'll turn to one of
:49:24. > :49:24.the issues in the campaign that did cause a lot of debate. Angela
:49:25. > :49:31.Piercy. Does the election result spell
:49:32. > :49:39.the end of the "dementia tax"? You remember the dementia tax, she
:49:40. > :49:44.said she hadn't changed her views and that's a matter of debate, I
:49:45. > :49:48.suppose. Do you want to start on that, Isabel? This is such an
:49:49. > :49:51.important issue. It was really disappointing that the Conservative
:49:52. > :49:56.manifesto came out with such a botched approach to it. I think it's
:49:57. > :50:00.far too important for party politics. I know it's been tried
:50:01. > :50:03.before, but I think that we owe it to ourselves to have some kind of
:50:04. > :50:08.cross-party talks, some kind of commission, where we really get to
:50:09. > :50:12.grips with this problem. It's going to be expensive but it's too
:50:13. > :50:19.important for things to be labelled dementia tax or death tax. OK. Chris
:50:20. > :50:23.Grayling. The irony is there was no such thing as dementia tax and in
:50:24. > :50:27.fact the package compares quite favourably with the situation. Most
:50:28. > :50:30.people didn't understand, don't understand, the situation today is
:50:31. > :50:34.if you go into residential care and you have no other financial means,
:50:35. > :50:38.your house has to be sold there and then and the money is spent down to
:50:39. > :50:43.the last ?23,000. That's the situation today. It's been the case
:50:44. > :50:46.for ten, 20, 30 years in this country. What was brought forward in
:50:47. > :50:50.the Conservative manifesto actually took less from people than the
:50:51. > :50:54.current system. But we've got to learn lessons around how that came
:50:55. > :50:57.across, about how it was launched, the communication of it. We need to
:50:58. > :51:01.do what we promised to do in the campaign, which is to issue a Green
:51:02. > :51:06.paper, have a proper public consultation about the best way
:51:07. > :51:09.forward on this. This is one of the great defining issues of our time.
:51:10. > :51:11.We have to find the best way of solving it. It means difficult
:51:12. > :51:15.decisions. I'm pretty sure Theresa May in the campaign and going
:51:16. > :51:19.forward wanted to be honest with the public and say look, this is a huge
:51:20. > :51:24.challenge, it's going to cost is collectively and individually and we
:51:25. > :51:30.have to address it. Why didn't she explain it then? Why didn't she go
:51:31. > :51:36.on television and debate the pros and cons? I agree, I was on the
:51:37. > :51:39.daily politics with Andrew Neil and someone from the Institute for
:51:40. > :51:43.Fiscal Studies the day the Tory manifesto came out on these two
:51:44. > :51:47.great big brains between them couldn't work out whether this was a
:51:48. > :51:50.good thing, a bad thing, or an easy thing to explain are difficult thing
:51:51. > :51:55.to explain, and if they couldn't do it I'm sure most of us couldn't do
:51:56. > :51:58.it. That was a problem. She had three or four weeks in which to
:51:59. > :52:01.explain it and take it on and to engage with you about it, find out
:52:02. > :52:08.what the issues and problems were, and she ignored that. You, sir. I'm
:52:09. > :52:14.more worried about the risk of basically how many more weeks will
:52:15. > :52:16.it take for the wheels to come off whatever agreement they are going to
:52:17. > :52:20.make and we're going to be sitting here again, discussing the same
:52:21. > :52:24.issues and going to the polls again? I'd to know what the panel thinks
:52:25. > :52:29.about how many weeks do you think that will take to happen? What do
:52:30. > :52:31.you call the wheels coming off? I don't know what agreement they've
:52:32. > :52:38.done together but obviously when you've got two parties, they'll
:52:39. > :52:42.disagree, the wheels will come off, something will happen. It was the
:52:43. > :52:46.social care policy that actually made the wheels come off the
:52:47. > :52:49.campaign, because I think it was one thing for Theresa May to say I want
:52:50. > :52:52.a blank check for Brexit, which is why I'm having this election, but
:52:53. > :52:58.what that did was make people think Hang on a minute she wants a blank
:52:59. > :53:01.check for everything. One of the things, you know this, the one thing
:53:02. > :53:04.you've got to do in a campaign, we're back to the question of
:53:05. > :53:07.confidence. It was so badly handled. The first you guys knew about it was
:53:08. > :53:12.when you read it in the manifesto. It was done by her mate, two mates
:53:13. > :53:16.behind the stage who you are trying to get rid of, Timothy and Fiona
:53:17. > :53:20.Hill, they put it in there, than it was launched on an unsuspecting
:53:21. > :53:24.world and within a couple of days she had junked it and don't think
:53:25. > :53:28.Angela Merkel and Emmanuel Macron didn't see how quickly she jumped it
:53:29. > :53:31.and it was utterly incompetent. When as Isabel says, this is a really
:53:32. > :53:36.important issue where we do actually have to have a proper debate about
:53:37. > :53:39.it. With respect, that's quite right coming from somebody in a party who
:53:40. > :53:44.brought as the extraordinary experience of Diane Abbott and
:53:45. > :53:48.police costs, of Jeremy Corbyn costing his policies, so looking at
:53:49. > :53:55.how badly they handled their ability to explain that. The leader of a
:53:56. > :54:00.party launching a manifesto. You can't spin your way out of that one.
:54:01. > :54:08.Even you can't! Shami Chakrabarti. This isn't just about spin all about
:54:09. > :54:11.confidence, it's about a policy that has terrified a lot of older people
:54:12. > :54:15.on the doorstep that I've personally spoken to and it's a strange policy
:54:16. > :54:19.from the Conservatives, who are supposed up a support home owning
:54:20. > :54:23.and supposed to support that you leave your home to your children.
:54:24. > :54:26.People have been genuinely terrified and said, I don't want to go into
:54:27. > :54:30.social care. Everyone is right that we've got a big problem with an
:54:31. > :54:33.ageing population and we need to take care of them with dignity but
:54:34. > :54:37.it's got to be a fair tax for everybody, not just taking the tax
:54:38. > :54:41.from the people who are suffering and have to go into social care.
:54:42. > :54:46.We've got time for one last question, just. And Edo, please. --
:54:47. > :54:49.Daniel be done. Now that Jeremy Corbyn did much
:54:50. > :54:52.better than expected, is it fair to say the media's power
:54:53. > :55:05.over politics is over? The media being... Newspapers, like
:55:06. > :55:09.the Sun and the Daily Mail. The BBC? The sun and Daily Mail in particular
:55:10. > :55:15.are mean if you like towards Jeremy Corbyn and I think it's been shown
:55:16. > :55:19.in the election yesterday. Armando Iannucci. We've felt for some time
:55:20. > :55:26.that the way the newspapers have treated anyone on the left has been
:55:27. > :55:29.sort of fiction. It's their own story that they sell. I think most
:55:30. > :55:35.people know that it's their story. It's a fiction. Was accounted by
:55:36. > :55:39.social media in this election? It was. It will take awhile to find out
:55:40. > :55:43.how much but I think it was. The other parties will catch up on that
:55:44. > :55:46.as well. The Conservatives and the Leave campaign in the referendum
:55:47. > :55:50.last year had a massive social media, a sinister one in terms of
:55:51. > :55:55.collecting data, and what it does is raise the whole issue of the
:55:56. > :55:58.influence, Facebook and Google and those outlets have, that they are no
:55:59. > :56:03.longer just distributors of information, they are publishers,
:56:04. > :56:06.and they need to be regarded as publishers. They publish stories for
:56:07. > :56:12.profit. That's how they work. That raises that question. I want --
:56:13. > :56:15.Isabel Oakeshott. I want to get in here before the usual rant about the
:56:16. > :56:20.Daily Mail. It's a legitimate question and it's difficult to gauge
:56:21. > :56:23.because when I saw the Sun the Meyler combined front pages
:56:24. > :56:29.yesterday I thought it might make a significant difference and clearly
:56:30. > :56:34.it did not -- that Mail front pages. What did they say? They were pretty
:56:35. > :56:44.robust in their hostility. We found that Jeremy Corbyn was portrayed as
:56:45. > :56:48.a dustbin and we were advised to bin Corbyn and don't let him put Britain
:56:49. > :56:53.in the bin. You can't have it both ways, it's difficult to judge. Chris
:56:54. > :56:56.Grayling? The lesson for politicians is we can't decide how we
:56:57. > :56:59.communicate to people, we have to look at how they receive their
:57:00. > :57:03.information and a lot of work to do in the future on improving what we
:57:04. > :57:07.do with social media. I think Armando makes an important point,
:57:08. > :57:10.that actually, we also have to be sure what's being put on social
:57:11. > :57:18.media is accurate. We want a democracy that tells the truth and a
:57:19. > :57:24.lot of the time... The Daily Mail. Where you accurate, Alistair? You've
:57:25. > :57:28.got a minute. Let's not spend it all Daily Mail. Briefly, Shami. It's
:57:29. > :57:33.about being accurate, it's about being fair and giving people a fair
:57:34. > :57:37.shout and a fair hearing and it's also about nastiness and I think
:57:38. > :57:46.there was a moment perhaps in this campaign where some of these attacks
:57:47. > :57:50.went a bit too far. On social media. APPLAUSE
:57:51. > :57:53.It's possible that Mail in particular was so over the top that
:57:54. > :57:56.in the last few days it actually helped the Labour Party because the
:57:57. > :58:01.public are seen through it and I do urge you all, thank you for the
:58:02. > :58:05.encouragement to do this, Isabel, I urge you all, if you want to help
:58:06. > :58:12.democracy, stop buying the Daily Mail.
:58:13. > :58:15.APPLAUSE OK. I don't know why we have to go
:58:16. > :58:19.on about the Daily Mail the time. Next Thursday, Question
:58:20. > :58:24.Time is in Coventry. If you'd like to come
:58:25. > :58:35.along, go to our website Thank you to the panel and to all of
:58:36. > :59:02.you who came here. Until Question Time on Thursday, good night.
:59:03. > :59:08.I've had enough... ..alternative facts.