:00:00. > :00:00.Tonight we're in Hastings, and welcome to Question
:00:07. > :00:22.On our panel tonight one of the three Brexiteers, the Conservative
:00:23. > :00:24.International Trade Secretary, Liam Fox.
:00:25. > :00:26.Stella Creasy, the Labour MP, who today
:00:27. > :00:34.forced the Government to agree free abortions
:00:35. > :00:35.in Britain for women from
:00:36. > :00:37.The Editor-in-Chief of the The Economist,
:00:38. > :00:42.The founder and editor of the left-wing news website
:00:43. > :00:48.host who teaches politicians to count, Nick Ferrari.
:00:49. > :01:15.Rememeber at home using Twitter, Facebook or text.
:01:16. > :01:19.The first question from Marianne Smith, please.
:01:20. > :01:21.Is it right that ten DUP votes have been
:01:22. > :01:22.bought by the Government when
:01:23. > :01:25.Mrs May told a nurse that there was no magic money tree?
:01:26. > :01:37.So, she actually said that here on
:01:38. > :01:41.Question Time to a nurse when she was on the programme before the
:01:42. > :01:44."There isn't a magic money tree that we can shake that
:01:45. > :01:46.suddenly provides for everything that people want."
:01:47. > :01:56.after the election had no overall majority.
:01:57. > :02:00.That's what's required by our constitution and that's what
:02:01. > :02:03.The DUP share a lot of common elements with the
:02:04. > :02:05.Conservative Party, on things like the union,
:02:06. > :02:06.believing in the union of
:02:07. > :02:10.They support our Brexit deal, they support our
:02:11. > :02:12.proposals we have with dealing with extremism.
:02:13. > :02:14.They are very important elements going forward.
:02:15. > :02:15.It's the billion pounds she's talking about.
:02:16. > :02:28.What of course we, it's the MPs from the DUP, clearly,
:02:29. > :02:31.they wanted to get better funding for Northern Ireland and things like
:02:32. > :02:32.infrastructure and who can blame them.
:02:33. > :02:35.They've got an influence that they didn't have before and that's
:02:36. > :02:38.But there is something that was different
:02:39. > :02:39.about Northern Ireland, if
:02:40. > :02:45.you look at the city deals done in England,
:02:46. > :02:47.there were over nearly over ?3.2 billion worth
:02:48. > :02:49.In Scotland three-quarters of billion
:02:50. > :02:51.of city deals done, in Wales half a billion.
:02:52. > :02:54.They weren't getting any of the benefit
:02:55. > :02:55.of that programme that the
:02:56. > :03:04.So to get the funding that it deserves, Theresa May
:03:05. > :03:07.has to depend on them to stay in power?
:03:08. > :03:10.No, but the funding has been allocated for a number of specific
:03:11. > :03:12.Mental health is one of them, clearly.
:03:13. > :03:17.The facilities in Northern Ireland should be better
:03:18. > :03:19.but also Northern Ireland's infrastructure in terms of its
:03:20. > :03:23.economy, has a number of deficiencies.
:03:24. > :03:25.Northern Ireland in terms of exports is the lowest
:03:26. > :03:27.exporting part of the United Kingdom.
:03:28. > :03:33.We were told two weeks ago there wasn't any?
:03:34. > :03:36.The money will come from the Treasury, it will have to come
:03:37. > :03:37.from within the existing programmes that we have.
:03:38. > :03:40.So there is a money tree, you just shake it?
:03:41. > :03:48.But we do have programmes that need to be funded.
:03:49. > :03:56.Remember this money does not go to the DUP, this money
:03:57. > :03:58.goes to the Government of Northern Ireland itself.
:03:59. > :04:01.But it is money that is found when you needed to find a
:04:02. > :04:04.It's not money that was sitting there that nobody
:04:05. > :04:09.There are lots of places in this in this country that could do with a
:04:10. > :04:16.I'm interestedin how you started this answer, you said that
:04:17. > :04:18.the Government had a duty to form a government.
:04:19. > :04:20.It didn't have a duty to do a grubby deal.
:04:21. > :04:23.It could have perfectly well functioned as a
:04:24. > :04:27.We have had minority governments before,
:04:28. > :04:31.although, they tend to be quite weak ones but it's not at all clear to me
:04:32. > :04:35.that this deal which not own is frankly, a grubby bribe of a billion
:04:36. > :04:37.that this deal which not only is frankly,
:04:38. > :04:41.pounds, it also makes the whole peace process somewhat harder.
:04:42. > :04:43.I would say that it makes Brexit more
:04:44. > :04:49.In this case to paraphrase someone, no deal might have
:04:50. > :04:54.The question was, was it right, and it was right and it
:04:55. > :04:58.It was wrong because it was shabby but it's what politicians
:04:59. > :04:59.sometimes do, and politicians of all colours.
:05:00. > :05:03.We can look in the past at Labour, how they, when they were in
:05:04. > :05:05.power they channelled vast sums of money to
:05:06. > :05:06.northern cities such as
:05:07. > :05:09.Manchester, Leeds, Sheffield, where they have the core vote, so in a way
:05:10. > :05:11.it is the same sort of thing it is equally shabby.
:05:12. > :05:14.It shouldn't have been done but it was done.
:05:15. > :05:34.How can you possibly equate investing in the regeneraling
:05:35. > :05:36.of much needed regeneraling ration of towns and cities across
:05:37. > :05:40.the land with a grubby little deal that Theresa May made simply to
:05:41. > :05:45.Where I believe it was a good thing, that given what
:05:46. > :05:48.we have seen as utterances of Jeremy Corbyn and from the Shadow
:05:49. > :05:51.Chancellor, John McDonald, a couple of weeks ago or so.
:05:52. > :05:53.prospect of having Jeremy Corbyn as our
:05:54. > :05:55.Prime Minister, as I would of as
:05:56. > :05:58.going for a Sunday drive with Richard Hammond, so I'm rather
:05:59. > :06:01.pleased that they have done the deal.
:06:02. > :06:07.We can talk about the mechanics of what's happening in
:06:08. > :06:09.Parliament and the fact it basically equates
:06:10. > :06:16.to every single DUP, MP,
:06:17. > :06:19.being worth ?1 million, but actually what matters here is that this
:06:20. > :06:21.country hasn't had a pay rise for ten years.
:06:22. > :06:24.People, I see it in my surgery, in my constituency every day, people
:06:25. > :06:27.for whom there is far too much month left
:06:28. > :06:28.at the end of their money and
:06:29. > :06:31.And I'm talking to schools where teachers are
:06:32. > :06:43.My local hospital has a nurses shortage.
:06:44. > :06:45.Our public sector workers, those firemen, those policemen that kept
:06:46. > :06:47.us safe, who ran into burning building buildings.
:06:48. > :06:49.And yesterday, Some of them might have turned on
:06:50. > :06:52.the news halfway through the day and thought finally, somebody is
:06:53. > :06:54.listening, so what a cruel, horrible moment it was,
:06:55. > :06:56.when the Government voted down our attempt, to say, you
:06:57. > :06:59.know what, there is agreement across this House that these people deserve
:07:00. > :07:01.a pay rise, let's do something about it.
:07:02. > :07:11.To come back to Marianne's question, we all
:07:12. > :07:13.watched that nurse plead with Theresa May, plead with her,
:07:14. > :07:15.that she hadn't had a pay rise for ten
:07:16. > :07:17.years and she needed a break and the Prime
:07:18. > :07:19.Minister looked her square in
:07:20. > :07:22.the eye and said there was no magic money tree and when the British
:07:23. > :07:32.public refused to give Theresa May a majority,
:07:33. > :07:42.the first thing she did with that majority that she bought with ?1.5
:07:43. > :07:45.She said to that nurse, she said to the police
:07:46. > :07:48.that ran into the Manchester concert bombing and the terrorist attacks on
:07:49. > :07:51.London and she said to the firefighters that ran up 20
:07:52. > :07:52.storeys in Grenfell Tower, to save lives,
:07:53. > :07:54.storeys in Grenfell Tower, to save lives -
:07:55. > :08:00.I can't believe Liam Fox mentioned security in connection
:08:01. > :08:04.The Tory Party tried to smear Corbyn with his connection
:08:05. > :08:15.with attempting to create a peace deal in Northern Ireland and now you
:08:16. > :08:23.have gone into cruelly with actual terrorist sympathisers who have
:08:24. > :08:28.I think it is incredible, especially from Labour,
:08:29. > :08:31.that they are not recognising, as Nigel Dodds said, Labour
:08:32. > :08:35.tried to do a deal in 2015 and 2010 and also the SNP tried to do a deal
:08:36. > :08:39.with the DUP so I feel like it's a bit of hypocracy from everybody.
:08:40. > :08:42.with the DUP so I feel like it's a bit of hypocrisy from everybody.
:08:43. > :08:45.Liam Fox, do you want to come back on the money point?
:08:46. > :08:49.It's a very good point, a point I was going to make, that
:08:50. > :08:51.Stella did not mention about the confidence
:08:52. > :08:54.Liam, do you think I would have voted
:08:55. > :08:55.to go into coalition with the
:08:56. > :08:57.people I've just been fighting about abortion rights with?
:08:58. > :09:00.You tried to go into coalition with them in 2010.
:09:01. > :09:02.Gordon Brown tried to stay in power by doing
:09:03. > :09:06.2010, so let's have none of this high mind stuff.
:09:07. > :09:11.Can I ask you, one question is, did you really need to do this?
:09:12. > :09:15.It seems hard to believe that the DUP, when push came
:09:16. > :09:17.to shove, would vote against you if it meant that
:09:18. > :09:19.Jeremy Corbyn would be in power, given his relationship
:09:20. > :09:24.I think you have a view that your good negotiators,
:09:25. > :09:26.I think you have a view that you're good negotiators,
:09:27. > :09:28.with the crack negotiating team, it strikes me
:09:29. > :09:30.that in this area it was
:09:31. > :09:35.Mr Fox, you can't explain that the deal with the DUP is to improve
:09:36. > :09:42.infrastructure, this is really just a employ to get into power.
:09:43. > :09:45.infrastructure, this is really just a ploy to get into power.
:09:46. > :09:53.Should MPs receive a wage freeze and cap on expenses in this time of
:09:54. > :10:06.And I think, Stella Creasy, I'm right in saying you got a 10% pay
:10:07. > :10:15.Yes, I and opposed it, and I donated and I have donated it
:10:16. > :10:18.Yes, I and opposed it, and I have donated it
:10:19. > :10:21.towards the cost in my office of having more casework staff to be
:10:22. > :10:24.able to respond to the need of my local community because I won't
:10:25. > :10:29.I think that if we're going to ask the public sector to
:10:30. > :10:32.continue with pay restraint we will have to do the same.
:10:33. > :10:33.I don't think there will be an option.
:10:34. > :10:36.We had that correction back in 2015, I think
:10:37. > :10:38.that the public found that hard to swallow.
:10:39. > :10:51.I think if we got that correction and we are going to have to impose
:10:52. > :10:54.continued restraint on public sector, we are going to have to lead
:10:55. > :10:57.Would you like to see the pay cap ended?
:10:58. > :10:59.I think we need to look at the control of public
:11:00. > :11:04.We have a balance here to strike between our duty to remunerate those
:11:05. > :11:06.who work in the public sector and also to look
:11:07. > :11:07.after the interests of
:11:08. > :11:10.the taxpayers who pay the wages for those in the public sector.
:11:11. > :11:12.I think that we've got a number of public
:11:13. > :11:15.pay review bodies coming forward, that's the appropriate place to look
:11:16. > :11:19.But we need to remember that when we're talking about our
:11:20. > :11:21.public spending, we are spending as a country
:11:22. > :11:27.debt interest, for which we get nothing at all.
:11:28. > :11:31.And that's because of the debts we've run up in the
:11:32. > :11:34.past and the interest that's accrued on the debts.
:11:35. > :11:37.We've got to get to a point where we stop doing that and
:11:38. > :11:39.what people call austerity is actually living within your means.
:11:40. > :11:48.Hang on, you know the pressure there is.
:11:49. > :11:53.You know the pressure there is on the 1% pay cap.
:11:54. > :11:55.You opposed it when Labour put up, are you saying there
:11:56. > :11:58.will not be any change and there should not be any
:11:59. > :12:01.change in that policy, or are you saying wait for
:12:02. > :12:04.Maybe the Chancellor will find her way around it.
:12:05. > :12:07.The Chancellor has made clear that we will look at the pay review
:12:08. > :12:09.bodies for the groups such as the nurses
:12:10. > :12:13.that we will look at and as
:12:14. > :12:18.But the idea that the country can spend money that it doesn't have and
:12:19. > :12:30.simply leave the debt to the next generation is simply not acceptable.
:12:31. > :12:33.I have to say, this is high hypocracy indeed from the man who
:12:34. > :12:37.submitted an expenses claim for three pence for driving 100m,
:12:38. > :12:38.and frankly I'm surprised to see you
:12:39. > :12:44.I thought your best friend Adam Werritty might
:12:45. > :12:47.replace you which he did when you were Secretary Of Defense and was
:12:48. > :12:50.also, put up, I believe, in an apartment in London as taxpayer's
:12:51. > :12:53.expense, that's paid for by you, and you were later forced to return
:12:54. > :12:57.that you can sit here and talk about those terms with
:12:58. > :12:59.a straight face and tell these people, talk about terms of
:13:00. > :13:02.austerity, restraint, and living within your own means, when you were
:13:03. > :13:04.quite happy to subordinate those in your own interests.
:13:05. > :13:07.Can I just say, that you know we are here to have a debate,
:13:08. > :13:15.I think people here would like to have a real debate about the real
:13:16. > :13:22.I would like to debate with Liam, because you're talking Liam, like
:13:23. > :13:25.you haven't been in government responsible for our economy for the
:13:26. > :13:27.last seven years, and you're talking like your government doesn't have
:13:28. > :13:33.I agree, I want to get the debt down, because every pound we're
:13:34. > :13:35.paying in interest is money we're paying to bankers,
:13:36. > :13:36.rather than putting into
:13:37. > :13:39.That's why I get frustrated when I see your
:13:40. > :13:42.government wasting money on things like the bedroom tax, which costs
:13:43. > :13:45.more than it saves, on things like the contract to the DWP and
:13:46. > :13:47.the person-to-person payments and you wasted ?3 million.
:13:48. > :13:48.Your government has promised every single
:13:49. > :13:51.If your government was the financial manager
:13:52. > :13:53.of a company, you would have sacked them by now.
:13:54. > :13:59.You talk about the next generation, you know, there wasn't be any
:14:00. > :14:05.midwives around in the NHS if you don't value them.
:14:06. > :14:08.You talk about the next generation, you know, there won't be any
:14:09. > :14:10.midwives around in the NHS if you don't value them.
:14:11. > :14:24.I haven't had pay rise for seven years and I'm very experienced.
:14:25. > :14:26.Sorry, are you saying you're leaving, you say
:14:27. > :14:30.You talk about the Pay Review Body, the Pay
:14:31. > :14:33.Review Body reports that 80% of the midwives that left
:14:34. > :14:34.the profession would have stayed if they were
:14:35. > :14:38.Let's hear from the woman in green at the back.
:14:39. > :14:41.I would want to pay more tax so that our firefighters, paramedics, anyone
:14:42. > :14:44.in public service I value the education I have, the education my
:14:45. > :14:46.I value the education I have, the education my
:14:47. > :14:48.grandchildren will be getting and I value my family
:14:49. > :14:51.having a hospital bed, so I don't understand why it is
:14:52. > :15:05.The young man in the check shirt in the middle in the third row.
:15:06. > :15:08.Going back to MPs' pay, I don't think a lot of people
:15:09. > :15:10.realise just how important all MPs' jobs are.
:15:11. > :15:13.The initial question was, should MPs have a pay restraint.
:15:14. > :15:19.And what I find truly extraordinary is that I heard a figure,
:15:20. > :15:23.and bear in mind these nurses and firefighters and others,
:15:24. > :15:26.their pay has been capped for seven years.
:15:27. > :15:30.And it's a possibility it might be capped for another seven years.
:15:31. > :15:32.The last time I looked, when I went to Sainsbury's,
:15:33. > :15:35.Tesco or Waitrose, the prices haven't been capped for seven years.
:15:36. > :15:36.Nor have your rents, nor has your mortgage,
:15:37. > :15:41.And what is amazing, it's not just the 1 billion,
:15:42. > :15:44.or 1.5 billion that we've debated, the deal with the DUP.
:15:45. > :15:47.There are so many other things on which this government
:15:48. > :15:49.and previous governments waste extraordinary amounts of money.
:15:50. > :15:51.For instance, I'll just say the foreign aid budget,
:15:52. > :15:53.which I find quite incredible, ?17 billion.
:15:54. > :15:59.But one other thing, which is a ?56 billion white
:16:00. > :16:04.elephant called HS2, which is where we all need better
:16:05. > :16:07.broadband, and I understand that Hastings is an area that doesn't
:16:08. > :16:11.have the greatest rail service, so possibly I'm playing
:16:12. > :16:18.The man in blue with spectacles in the middle.
:16:19. > :16:21.I appreciate we're living through a time of great austerity,
:16:22. > :16:26.but I'm very concerned about recent changes to the benefit system.
:16:27. > :16:31.I tell you, I was made redundant a year ago,
:16:32. > :16:34.I've had 19 job interviews in a year.
:16:35. > :16:39.But a recent change to the benefit system means you now have to be
:16:40. > :16:42.unemployed for nine months, or 39 weeks, before you get any help
:16:43. > :16:47.I'm close to losing my home because of this.
:16:48. > :16:56.Zanny Minton Beddoes, back to the main question.
:16:57. > :16:58.I think the audience are raising incredibly important points
:16:59. > :17:01.which lead into what I think we should be doing and need to have
:17:02. > :17:04.as a country is a very serious conversation about about what kind
:17:05. > :17:07.of services we want, what we want to be paying people
:17:08. > :17:10.in the public sector, what that means in terms
:17:11. > :17:12.of spending, and how we are going to raise the tax
:17:13. > :17:18.We still have, Doctor Fox is right, a pretty big budget deficit.
:17:19. > :17:21.We are spending far more than we are bringing in.
:17:22. > :17:24.We are about to, because of Brexit, I'm afraid, have a hit
:17:25. > :17:27.in our economy which will mean less tax revenue.
:17:28. > :17:30.People are going to be poorer, and therefore there will
:17:31. > :17:33.It's perfectly reasonable that we may want to spend
:17:34. > :17:35.more on public services, but we're starting from
:17:36. > :17:40.So if we want to spend more, we need to raise more tax revenue.
:17:41. > :17:43.And Jeremy Corbyn, I'm afraid, is wrong to think that all of that
:17:44. > :17:45.tax revenue can come from corporations or the very rich.
:17:46. > :17:47.We have to have a proper, serious, grown-up conversation,
:17:48. > :17:51.as the lady in the back row said, about how much tax we as a society
:17:52. > :17:54.want to pay, and what kind of public services we want.
:17:55. > :18:04.We mentioned Brexit and I want to move on to Brexit.
:18:05. > :18:06.Which we've had many more questions about than anything.
:18:07. > :18:08.But just before I do, Question Time is going to be
:18:09. > :18:17.That's the last programme of the summer.
:18:18. > :18:19.We are going to be back in September.
:18:20. > :18:22.But if you want to come to Burton upon Trent,
:18:23. > :18:27.Andy Thomson, let's have your question, please.
:18:28. > :18:30.Why have 101 MPs this evening again gone against the will of the British
:18:31. > :18:32.people by voting to remain in the single market
:18:33. > :18:36.Stella Creasy was one of them.
:18:37. > :18:41.50, I think, Labour, and 50 other parties voting against,
:18:42. > :18:45.voting in favour of remaining in the single market.
:18:46. > :18:51.Let me be very clear, right, we are leaving the European Union.
:18:52. > :18:54.The question now is what is the best deal for Britain.
:18:55. > :18:58.And I voted against the Article 50 legislation.
:18:59. > :19:01.I voted tonight to make a point about the importance of having
:19:02. > :19:04.single market membership as part of the negotiations,
:19:05. > :19:06.for exactly the point that Zanny is talking about.
:19:07. > :19:08.Because the economic and social cost of these things
:19:09. > :19:12.And we need some honesty here about the choices
:19:13. > :19:16.And I worry about a government that before it has even begun
:19:17. > :19:18.the negotiations takes things off the table.
:19:19. > :19:21.So I want all of these options on the table.
:19:22. > :19:25.650,000 jobs in London alone are dependent on the single market.
:19:26. > :19:29.If we want a Brexit that is going to work for this
:19:30. > :19:31.country, we have to decide what we think is important.
:19:32. > :19:35.And I think people's livelihoods and being able to keep
:19:36. > :19:37.a roof above their heads, to know there is a job
:19:38. > :19:40.for them and their kids, is something we should prioritise.
:19:41. > :19:42.How do you leave the EU and remain in the customs union
:19:43. > :19:50.There are 101 different combinations that could happen.
:19:51. > :19:56.One of the things that is frustrating about this debate
:19:57. > :19:59.for the last nine months is that you have had Brexit means Brexit
:20:00. > :20:04.Different countries are part of the European Free Trade association.
:20:05. > :20:08.There are countries that are part of the customs union.
:20:09. > :20:10.The Prime Minister said she would like to be an associate
:20:11. > :20:14.It's a membership that doesn't even exist yet.
:20:15. > :20:17.At the moment this government is asking for the moon on a stick.
:20:18. > :20:20.And I want this country to be able to have some serious
:20:21. > :20:21.options to choose from, because the reality
:20:22. > :20:26.Now, I know that is going to be a difficult message for people,
:20:27. > :20:29.but I think you want politicians who are acting in what they think
:20:30. > :20:33.None of this is about repeating the referendum or undermining it.
:20:34. > :20:35.It's about saying what is in our best interests as a country.
:20:36. > :20:38.And I think that's the first thing you elect politicians to do.
:20:39. > :20:46.So, Liam Fox, 101 different combinations.
:20:47. > :20:48.Did you think that Stella Creasy and others were going
:20:49. > :20:51.against the will of the British people by voting to stay
:20:52. > :20:55.Let's face it, the people who say we want to stay
:20:56. > :20:58.in the single market, stay in the customs union,
:20:59. > :21:00.but we still respect the will of the British people,
:21:01. > :21:04.They tried to frustrate the will of the British people.
:21:05. > :21:08.The British people made very clear in the referendum,
:21:09. > :21:10.and then in the general election, incidentally.
:21:11. > :21:16.The Conservative Party said we will leave the single market.
:21:17. > :21:19.82% of voters voted for one of those parties that is going
:21:20. > :21:23.And I would say to those who are intent on thwarting
:21:24. > :21:29.what the British public voted for in the referendum, we voted
:21:30. > :21:32.to have control of our own laws, our borders and our money.
:21:33. > :21:35.That means not being under the influence of the European Court
:21:36. > :21:37.of Justice, not having complete free movement, as we have
:21:38. > :21:43.What don't you understand about democratic referendum,
:21:44. > :21:47.or binary, because that's what we voted for?
:21:48. > :21:54.That's not actually true about the Labour manifesto,
:21:55. > :21:57.but also, we've just had a general election.
:21:58. > :21:59.Your government asked for a thumping mandate for that approach,
:22:00. > :22:01.for that hard Brexit, come what may,
:22:02. > :22:07.The public said that's not what they want.
:22:08. > :22:12.If you're right about this issue, why did your party leader sack four
:22:13. > :22:15.shadow ministers tonight because they voted with you?
:22:16. > :22:17.I'm not going to pretend there's not a debate
:22:18. > :22:29.Actually, there are plenty on your side, Liam, who agree with us,
:22:30. > :22:32.that the government should be asking about all options, that you don't go
:22:33. > :22:35.into negotiations writing off two thirds of things.
:22:36. > :22:36.Not one Conservative joined you tonight.
:22:37. > :22:38.Not a single Conservative voted with you tonight.
:22:39. > :22:40.Liam, have some honesty with this audience.
:22:41. > :22:42.There are Conservatives who also agree that single market membership
:22:43. > :22:44.should be something that is part of the discussions.
:22:45. > :22:48.It doesn't mean it will happen but it does mean it is part
:22:49. > :22:51.Why are you cutting off our nose to spite our face?
:22:52. > :22:55.Let's bring in other members of the panel and the audience.
:22:56. > :22:58.There seems to be, both from you, Liam, and from the audience,
:22:59. > :23:02.As far as I remember, the referendum was about did
:23:03. > :23:06.It was not did we want to leave the single market, did
:23:07. > :23:09.we want to leave the customs union, and it so happens...
:23:10. > :23:14.It has been interpreted in the past year to be Brexit means
:23:15. > :23:18.Stella is right that the results of the election were not a thumping
:23:19. > :23:26.You can say, "Not", but if you look at opinion polls now,
:23:27. > :23:29.opinion polls seem to suggest that a majority of the British people
:23:30. > :23:32.actually want to stay in the customs union.
:23:33. > :23:42.Go and look at the Mail on Sunday opinion poll.
:23:43. > :23:45.Better if some of you speak than all of you shout.
:23:46. > :23:47.Who disagrees with what Zanny has just said?
:23:48. > :23:51.Let's hear from the woman on the right.
:23:52. > :23:53.What did you vote for when you voted?
:23:54. > :23:55.I didn't vote most recently because I didn't think
:23:56. > :24:01.For hundreds of years, this country has stood
:24:02. > :24:05.on its own and has been the best in the world for almost everything.
:24:06. > :24:08.We've joined up with others, and it's a load of rubbish.
:24:09. > :24:15.We should be back where we were, on our own.
:24:16. > :24:20.Anybody else want to take issue with what she said?
:24:21. > :24:24.I think there's a little addressed issue in society that
:24:25. > :24:26.there's this balance between freedom and responsibility.
:24:27. > :24:28.There is not only left and right in the world, obviously,
:24:29. > :24:31.because Brexit proved that, split down party lines.
:24:32. > :24:34.But there is this issue that people want to be free,
:24:35. > :24:39.and we voted by a slim majority, but we voted to be free from
:24:40. > :24:47.Anyone saying it's going to be terrible if we stay,
:24:48. > :24:49.or great if we stay, terrible if we leave,
:24:50. > :24:53.What about the 101 different combinations, as Stella Creasy says,
:24:54. > :25:00.And they should be available within the referendum of last year?
:25:01. > :25:04.We can't all vote on 101 different things.
:25:05. > :25:07.That's what the government's for, we delegate that to them.
:25:08. > :25:09.Nice for some of us, but hell for most of us.
:25:10. > :25:13.Stella says that 650,000 jobs in London depend on the EU.
:25:14. > :25:16.They are not going to go away just because we leave.
:25:17. > :25:18.And you say that we want to be isolationist.
:25:19. > :25:26.The share of the world GDP that the EU has is going down
:25:27. > :25:32.We want to look to the rest of the world.
:25:33. > :25:37.There's a big world out there, which we can be part of.
:25:38. > :25:39.And what do you think of remaining in the single or remaining
:25:40. > :25:43.I think we should come out of both of them.
:25:44. > :25:46.Just before we move on, to the gentleman there
:25:47. > :25:49.who has tried 19 times, I wish you the very best of luck
:25:50. > :25:52.and I hope somebody is watching tonight that gives you a go.
:25:53. > :25:58.That gentleman there who has lost his job and tried 19 jobs.
:25:59. > :26:00.By the way, I will write you a reference.
:26:01. > :26:03.I have known you for 20 years and you are the finest guy
:26:04. > :26:08.This is the reality of the situation.
:26:09. > :26:12.Would it be a good idea to perhaps pay some cash so we could get back
:26:13. > :26:15.Yes, possibly, but it is never going to happen.
:26:16. > :26:21.To bring up the point from the young man sitting over here,
:26:22. > :26:24.It is a big, brave, bold world out there.
:26:25. > :26:28.And I ask you in all honesty, as you look at the European Union
:26:29. > :26:30.at the moment, as you see where Greece is, where Italy's
:26:31. > :26:33.economy is, as you see where unemployment is in Spain
:26:34. > :26:36.and Portugal, would you want to now tie yourself to something like that
:26:37. > :26:39.which is past its prime and possibly like the old Soviet Union?
:26:40. > :26:47.And just finally, much as I respect Liam and I respect
:26:48. > :26:49.the whole front row, the rugby front row of our
:26:50. > :26:52.negotiators, Boris Johnson, David Davis and Liam Fox,
:26:53. > :26:55.I can't help but think the person who should be doing
:26:56. > :26:58.the negotiations is Arlene Foster, because by God she got a good
:26:59. > :27:07.I think the audience have raised really good points.
:27:08. > :27:09.In fact, journalist Paul Mason wrote an incredible piece prior
:27:10. > :27:11.to the EU referendum which was about
:27:12. > :27:20.And the fact that you could even have a referendum where people
:27:21. > :27:22.who were never going to be responsible for delivering that
:27:23. > :27:25.Brexit, or that Remain, were allowed to make whatever
:27:26. > :27:29.promises they felt like on the day in order to get their victory,
:27:30. > :27:35.and never have to take accountability for the result.
:27:36. > :27:38.And I think there's a real case now, actually.
:27:39. > :27:42.We've got Brexit people in the audience and on the panel.
:27:43. > :27:45.And your main argument about Brexit and the fact that we should go
:27:46. > :27:48.ahead is that we had to have the democratic mandate.
:27:49. > :27:54.I agree with you, which is why I think there is a legitimate case
:27:55. > :27:56.for saying that when the Brexit deal comes back, we hold
:27:57. > :28:11.If, as our panel are saying, our MPs really have got the best
:28:12. > :28:15.interests of Britain at heart, rather than self-interest,
:28:16. > :28:18.then after the British people have had the opportunity to vote us
:28:19. > :28:21.in or out on Brexit, there should be a cross-party
:28:22. > :28:25.project for the good of the nation, to come together, so that then
:28:26. > :28:38.You are the man in waiting, in charge of negotiating deals
:28:39. > :28:41.with the rest of the world, as I understand it, once the main
:28:42. > :28:46.So presumably you are slightly hanging around.
:28:47. > :28:55.To answer your point, we have actually got a lot of work
:28:56. > :28:58.to do to prepare to leave the European Union, in terms
:28:59. > :29:02.of the agreements that we are party to as part of the European Union.
:29:03. > :29:06.We have to turn them into agreements for the United Kingdom outside.
:29:07. > :29:09.And the reason it's important, 90% of global growth in the next ten
:29:10. > :29:15.If we as a country want to generate the wealth that we will need
:29:16. > :29:18.for all those things that everybody wants in terms of spending
:29:19. > :29:23.on public services, that growth is going to come
:29:24. > :29:28.We need to access and get into those markets, outside the European Union.
:29:29. > :29:29.That's where growth is going to come.
:29:30. > :29:35.I'm sorry, let me just put a question.
:29:36. > :29:41.Are there any circumstances in which remaining in the single
:29:42. > :29:43.market or the customs union, the question asked,
:29:44. > :29:57.would appeal to you, you would find it a sensible course?
:29:58. > :30:06.Or is Brexit means Brexit? If we stay in the single market, we are
:30:07. > :30:11.subjected to the course, and if we stay in the customs union we can't
:30:12. > :30:18.negotiate our trade agreements as we are bounded by the common ex-tariff
:30:19. > :30:24.and then we are not able to work with developing countries... We will
:30:25. > :30:28.have both an economic and a moral mission to be able to make the best
:30:29. > :30:32.of the decision that the British people have given us. That
:30:33. > :30:38.opportunity is taking advantages of those big markets that are out there
:30:39. > :30:45.for our future prosperity. Stella Creasy? I want, I think this
:30:46. > :30:51.is great rhetoric, But can I add reality to the great new world we
:30:52. > :30:59.are going to conquer. Yes, there are growing economies growing faster
:31:00. > :31:04.outside of the Europe. 61% of the countries have a union with the
:31:05. > :31:09.trade deals. 61% of our trade is with either the
:31:10. > :31:13.European Union or with countries with which the European Union has a
:31:14. > :31:17.free trade, so we have free trade with those countries, the rest is
:31:18. > :31:21.divided half to the United States and half to other countries. The
:31:22. > :31:26.United States we may get a free trade deal but tariffs are low. The
:31:27. > :31:31.US would want access to agriculture markets, what we want is greater
:31:32. > :31:37.access for services. I think more free trade is great. But it means
:31:38. > :31:41.that the British people, having hormone beef, chlorine washed
:31:42. > :31:47.chicken, yes, it does as that is what the Americans want. And the
:31:48. > :31:49.other thing, Liam, as you know well, the Americans will not negotiate
:31:50. > :31:54.with you until they know the relationship that you have the rest
:31:55. > :32:00.of the European Union and ditto with the other emerging economies. And a
:32:01. > :32:05.fact, if the trade with the EU decreases by 5% you have to increase
:32:06. > :32:10.trade with the 10 biggest Commonwealth economies by more than
:32:11. > :32:18.30%. So a tiny decline in trade. How would you go along with it? Stay
:32:19. > :32:25.in the customs union. Can you put your hand on heart and say staying
:32:26. > :32:30.in the customs union and single market accords with the wishes of
:32:31. > :32:36.the 52% of the British people who wanted to remain? Yes. There will be
:32:37. > :32:39.changes to the way that Britain has a relationship with the European
:32:40. > :32:43.Union but it is a negotiation that should not exclude the sensible
:32:44. > :32:48.approach, to have all options on the table.
:32:49. > :32:52.But we have to leave. We have been told to leave by the people. We have
:32:53. > :32:57.been given an instruction. If we stay in the single market we are
:32:58. > :33:01.still in the European Union to all intents and purposes.
:33:02. > :33:07.Stella, I come to you. The woman up there, the second row
:33:08. > :33:16.from the back? I would trust what Zanny says as she works for the the
:33:17. > :33:21.The Economist, so I think we should listen to her.
:33:22. > :33:29.And the woman in the front? Thank you. We have, we are close to
:33:30. > :33:33.Europe, there is 300 million people, how are we going to, with the rest
:33:34. > :33:41.of the world, Australia has a population of about 23 million,
:33:42. > :33:45.Norway about 5 million, Canada 40-odd million, and someone said
:33:46. > :33:52.well, India has a huge population but there are not that many rich
:33:53. > :33:59.people in India, why reject the 300 million people on our doorstep? We
:34:00. > :34:06.are not rejecting the people... This is, we are not rejecting Europe.
:34:07. > :34:11.Correction, not rejecting. We want an open and liberal trade
:34:12. > :34:15.agreement with the European Union. But there are very, very big markets
:34:16. > :34:22.out there that we can take advantage of. As for the US are not having
:34:23. > :34:29.talks, we are beginning discussions on the 24th of July, next month.
:34:30. > :34:35.I want to go on. There are many other questions yes? This debate
:34:36. > :34:41.proves why you need more Parliamentally scrutiny. Liam is not
:34:42. > :34:45.levelling, whoever we trade with, we will have to abuy bide by their
:34:46. > :34:50.regulations. You need to know the options. What I and the others who
:34:51. > :34:55.are concerned about walking away from the single market membership,
:34:56. > :34:59.it is not just the tariffs but the standards, your employment rights,
:35:00. > :35:02.environmental standards, we can look at the deal without compromising the
:35:03. > :35:08.commitment that the referendum has had. Believe me, I don't want to run
:35:09. > :35:12.the referendum again. But I do want what is in the best interests of the
:35:13. > :35:17.country. I want the British public to know that the politicians have
:35:18. > :35:22.done a proper job of scrutinising the options so that we have the best
:35:23. > :35:34.deal. I can't tell you hand on heart that is what is happening now.
:35:35. > :35:38.Keith Piggot, please? The horror of Grenfell Tower became politicised
:35:39. > :35:45.during the PM's Question Time, do the panel think that Parliament
:35:46. > :35:50.should adopt Theresa May's collect Ian's guilt approach to resolve or
:35:51. > :35:58.Jeremy Corbyn's austerity point-scoring? As you know there was
:35:59. > :36:06.a division of opinion in the House of Commons. Nick Ferrari? I thought
:36:07. > :36:09.that was one of the lowest moments in Prime Minister's Questions I have
:36:10. > :36:13.seen for some time. There are people as we speak, who don't know where
:36:14. > :36:20.loved ones are, who don't know where their families are. Incredibly
:36:21. > :36:25.diligent men and women wading through, I apologise for this but up
:36:26. > :36:29.to three feet of broken appliances, ash, goodness knows what else, to
:36:30. > :36:36.see the leader of the political party to score a cheap point over
:36:37. > :36:43.that, I thought was reprehensible. Beaten by your Shadow Chancellor,
:36:44. > :36:46.John McDonald, suggesting irresponsible, and incorrectly, it
:36:47. > :36:49.could be illegally, that they were murdered by political decisions.
:36:50. > :36:54.There is a time... There is a time...
:36:55. > :37:00.APPLAUSE There is a time for able
:37:01. > :37:05.politicians, such as Stella and Liam and the colleagues to debate this
:37:06. > :37:08.but while the brave men and women are searching for fragments of bone
:37:09. > :37:17.or teeth, this is not the time to get political about it.
:37:18. > :37:23.What I think is more reprehensible than your point is that it has taken
:37:24. > :37:27.a tragedy like Grenfell Tower to even race the issue. No-one was
:37:28. > :37:31.speaking about it before. Why shouldn't Jeremy Corbyn bring it up?
:37:32. > :37:40.There will be a time to answer you, sir. I hope that there is a sea
:37:41. > :37:45.change as to how the Hillsborough challenge was run, I hope that there
:37:46. > :37:49.is sea change movement, I really do. But there are no party political
:37:50. > :37:55.points to score. I don't want to do this, you can see that you can track
:37:56. > :37:58.legislation to Tony Blair, to the coalition government, no one party
:37:59. > :37:59.emerges with any credit here, so they should not be playing this
:38:00. > :38:14.game. APPLAUSE
:38:15. > :38:18.You know what I think is reprehensible, I think it is
:38:19. > :38:23.reprehensible and disgusting, that the reason that building was wrapped
:38:24. > :38:30.in combustible cladding is because of the poverty of the people living
:38:31. > :38:36.in that tower block was offensive enough to hide behind combustible
:38:37. > :38:39.cladding... And I make no apology for saying it.
:38:40. > :38:45.Well it is wrong, you have to, actually. This is not about party
:38:46. > :38:50.politics, this is about, what it is about is saying there were a chain
:38:51. > :38:54.of events that led to this fire that have to be analysed, and questions
:38:55. > :38:59.have to be asked and answered openly. It is not me saying that, it
:39:00. > :39:05.is not Jeremy Corbyn saying that, it is the survivors of this disaster.
:39:06. > :39:11.It is the residents of that tower who wrote in 2014, saying that they
:39:12. > :39:16.believed this was a fire risk. They wrote in March of this year.
:39:17. > :39:22.They said it would take a catastrophic event for our concerns
:39:23. > :39:26.to be listened to. And tragically, that proved true because those
:39:27. > :39:32.people, because they were poor, because they were immigrants... No.
:39:33. > :39:40.No. You cannot say that. They were ignored. I guarantee if they were
:39:41. > :39:47.the richer residents of Chelsea making that complaint... There was a
:39:48. > :39:52.Fire Brigades Union stadium, they play where there is this cladding.
:39:53. > :39:56.There are hotels, ?200 a night, they have this cladding. You have to let
:39:57. > :40:04.the inquiry take its course. You must.
:40:05. > :40:10.In 2009, six people were killed in a tower block fire in Southwark. The
:40:11. > :40:15.coroner said in 2013 that the cladding was to blame and that all
:40:16. > :40:19.tower blocks should be retro fitted with sprinklers, the government did
:40:20. > :40:24.not provide the resources, they sent a letter, it was not compulsory,
:40:25. > :40:28.they had the choice. David Cameron had the bonfire of building
:40:29. > :40:35.regulations, and he boasted that. Liam Fox? Like a lot of people who
:40:36. > :40:40.have worked for the Emergency Services, this fire brought back a
:40:41. > :40:46.lot of unpleasant memories for me. I was a junior doctor, there was a
:40:47. > :40:52.fire, you may remember it, David, the so-called Ice Cream Wars, people
:40:53. > :40:56.holding their children in their arms in a baricated flat block and people
:40:57. > :41:03.died in that. For me it brought back unpleasant memories of that. There
:41:04. > :41:08.will be a time to ask a lot of these questions but there is still a great
:41:09. > :41:12.deal of suffering going on. People have had their lives ruined. People
:41:13. > :41:16.have had their families, they will never be together again. We need to
:41:17. > :41:22.conduct the debate with a little bit of respect for them. Politicising it
:41:23. > :41:30.is deeply tasteless and it is offensive. I could not agree more
:41:31. > :41:34.but can I say... I think there has been a public possibility failure
:41:35. > :41:40.for decades. We have to come to terms with that. It has come at a
:41:41. > :41:43.lot of levels, at government, inspection, building, at local
:41:44. > :41:50.authority level, and we would be wise now to let the inquiry take its
:41:51. > :41:57.course, stop pointing fingers and remember this is essentially still a
:41:58. > :42:02.dreadful, dreadful human tragedy that we're witnessing.
:42:03. > :42:06.Stella Creasy, what Corbyn said in the House of Commons is that the
:42:07. > :42:11.fire was the result of disastrous effects of austerity, of a price
:42:12. > :42:16.paid in public safety, the terrible consequences of deregulation,
:42:17. > :42:18.cutting corners that stem from a disregard for working-class
:42:19. > :42:25.communities. Do you endorse that view? I am mindful if my community
:42:26. > :42:29.in Walthamstow that there are people in blocks that have cladding that is
:42:30. > :42:34.being investigated. So I agree we have to choose our words carefully.
:42:35. > :42:39.I am concerned by what we have seen by the judge in the encary, who has
:42:40. > :42:44.said he doesn't think he can satisfy the concerns of the green fell
:42:45. > :42:48.residents in terms of what he can look at. He is looking at the fire
:42:49. > :42:52.and what happened after. Absolutely, there is a time and a place for
:42:53. > :42:57.those discussions. If there is one thing we have learned from
:42:58. > :43:00.Hillsborough, if you are looking for both truth and accountability,
:43:01. > :43:04.transparency matters. It does look like there is increasing concern
:43:05. > :43:08.about building regulations. We don't know which way it goes. We know
:43:09. > :43:12.looking at whether or not the building regulations in this country
:43:13. > :43:15.have been applied or been too flexible or not enforced, it is a
:43:16. > :43:21.question to be answered. Was your leader right to say it was
:43:22. > :43:23.a disregard for working class communities and the disastrous
:43:24. > :43:29.effects that caused this fire. Right or wrong to say in the House of
:43:30. > :43:35.Commons? I don't agree with the way in which he put it, I do agree that
:43:36. > :43:39.the inquiry should look at a wider range of issues. All of us, you can
:43:40. > :43:46.hear the heat in the audience, you can hear the concern. I understand
:43:47. > :43:50.where Jeremy was coming from in being concerned, and all of us must
:43:51. > :43:55.channel our anger into what is the best thing for those people worried
:43:56. > :43:59.about the cladding around them it is right to have proper investigation.
:44:00. > :44:04.And I would like the public advocate process fast tracked. Having the
:44:05. > :44:08.voices of the residents, the victims, front and centre, why are
:44:09. > :44:12.they not able to negotiate with the judge about his remit? That they
:44:13. > :44:18.have not, the worry is that the questions may not get looked at. We
:44:19. > :44:25.all want a proper and independent investigation as to what happened.
:44:26. > :44:31.Zanny Minton Beddoes? We need a proper investigation, that is
:44:32. > :44:36.transparent but also speedy. Part of the problem with public enquiries is
:44:37. > :44:40.that they go on. It is incredibly emotional issue. It is a terrible,
:44:41. > :44:46.terrible tragedy. Is it right it should abpolitical
:44:47. > :44:49.issue? No, I think that Jeremy Corbyn was utterly wrong to say
:44:50. > :44:55.that. I think it was both inaccurate and
:44:56. > :45:01.unhelpful and importantly unful helpful as adding to the emotion
:45:02. > :45:05.make it is less likely we have the speedy transparent inquiry we must
:45:06. > :45:09.have. And it can happen. There was a terrible fire in Clint.
:45:10. > :45:12.There was a quick an sips of what needed to happen with building are
:45:13. > :45:26.laces and enforcement and things changed fast.
:45:27. > :45:29.We need that, but we also need to have, frankly, a broader look.
:45:30. > :45:31.And this is where I think austerity here is not irrelevant
:45:32. > :45:35.But there is a broader problem with the housing
:45:36. > :45:37.stock in this country, that this is partly a reflection of.
:45:38. > :45:39.And we need to have a debate on that.
:45:40. > :45:41.The inquiry isn't going to have that.
:45:42. > :45:43.The inquiry needs to look at building regulations
:45:44. > :45:46.and what caused the fire, how it spread, what can be done
:45:47. > :45:48.as quickly to improve things as possible.
:45:49. > :45:50.But beyond that, we need a broader debate as a country.
:45:51. > :45:53.Building regulations isn't part of the inquiry at the moment,
:45:54. > :45:56.and I think that's the concern that many of us have, that that
:45:57. > :45:58.ought to be something we are looking at now.
:45:59. > :46:02.This is a collection of 600 Victorian cuttings
:46:03. > :46:06.The first cuttings says how to keep fire away from people and how
:46:07. > :46:11.They are never learned, they are just forgotten.
:46:12. > :46:13.And that has happened in this case, for decades, by all parties.
:46:14. > :46:28.What will be done to make sure that the government,
:46:29. > :46:31.whoever it may be, will listen to this public enquiry and make sure
:46:32. > :46:34.that they do the recommendations, that it goes into legislation?
:46:35. > :46:36.You think the enquiry may just be published and nothing happens.
:46:37. > :46:43.That's a very relevant point, but sort of revisiting something I said.
:46:44. > :46:46.Tragically, every now and again, something comes along
:46:47. > :46:49.that just sears its way into our consciousness,
:46:50. > :46:54.We've got to be careful what we say because that's been
:46:55. > :46:56.a momentous week for that, or the King's Cross fire,
:46:57. > :47:01.And it causes massive change, because it is the will of the people
:47:02. > :47:06.and the politicians know there has to be change.
:47:07. > :47:10.I'm telling you now, in two or three years,
:47:11. > :47:13.there won't be cladding on any of these hotels, any of these
:47:14. > :47:15.hospitals, any of these schools, any of these apartment blocks,
:47:16. > :47:18.and Britain will be a bloody better place for it.
:47:19. > :47:24.Can we also as a country end the critique
:47:25. > :47:26.of health and safety, because this government boasted
:47:27. > :47:28.about having a one in, two out approach to regulation.
:47:29. > :47:36.If we are learning anything, actually regulations about health
:47:37. > :47:40.If one of the things that comes out of this is a recognition that health
:47:41. > :47:42.and safety is there exactly for those reasons, that's
:47:43. > :47:51.You raised the point about legislation is very key.
:47:52. > :47:54.But you can legislate, and you can have regulations all you like.
:47:55. > :47:56.We have to make sure they are implemented.
:47:57. > :48:00.Politicians, we can pass laws, but if they are not being
:48:01. > :48:03.implemented on the ground, if there is not a mechanism
:48:04. > :48:05.to ensure that they are being implemented, then
:48:06. > :48:14.Part of the reason that enforcement isn't taking place
:48:15. > :48:16.is because of cuts to local government funding of 40%.
:48:17. > :48:21.If you're not paying for the inspectors to enforce
:48:22. > :48:24.the legislation, then there's a problem.
:48:25. > :48:34.I just wanted to say that we need to move from the disgrace
:48:35. > :48:37.of the current situation to amazing grace.
:48:38. > :48:43.Let's take politics out of social housing, and boost our economy
:48:44. > :48:46.through social infrastructure, and build more social housing.
:48:47. > :48:59.We've got a few minutes left, eight or so minutes.
:49:00. > :49:04.Do the mainstream media still serve any useful purpose?
:49:05. > :49:13.We have the founder of the Canary, which is I imagine not mainstream
:49:14. > :49:18.media of the kind you are talking about, newspapers and television.
:49:19. > :49:21.Newspapers primarily, yes, but TV, radio...
:49:22. > :49:30.Frankly, I don't think you would be in the audience or we would be
:49:31. > :49:34.on the panel if there was no purpose to the exchanges that we are having.
:49:35. > :49:41.I think we need to get as much public discourse as possible.
:49:42. > :49:45.Perhaps we need to look at the formats that we have,
:49:46. > :49:48.in terms of whether they are interesting to young voters,
:49:49. > :49:51.whether we are creative enough in the way that we get
:49:52. > :49:56.But the more that we can get information, the more we can get
:49:57. > :49:59.people involved in the political process and public policy
:50:00. > :50:04.I think the media does need to innovate, but the other thing
:50:05. > :50:07.that we require a free media for is a counterbalance
:50:08. > :50:14.We need a media that is able to say things that politicians don't like,
:50:15. > :50:17.there needs to be an ability for people to express views we don't
:50:18. > :50:24.That is how you keep a free and open society,
:50:25. > :50:27.and that, hopefully, is the legacy we would want
:50:28. > :50:33.Kerry-Anne Mendoza, you founded the Canary,
:50:34. > :50:43.Do mainstream media serve any useful purpose, or do young people,
:50:44. > :50:47.younger voters, look to people like you for their information?
:50:48. > :50:50.I would disagree with Liam's analysis about format.
:50:51. > :50:56.The issue is a painful lack of diversity in our mainstream media.
:50:57. > :51:04.And it's a lack of diversity on several levels.
:51:05. > :51:07.First, you have a lack of diversity in terms of ownership.
:51:08. > :51:09.80% of our media is owned by six corporations.
:51:10. > :51:17.But that lack of diversity then permeates into the newsrooms.
:51:18. > :51:20.So the whole path into journalism these days
:51:21. > :51:23.is you basically go to a handful of universities, maybe six.
:51:24. > :51:25.And then you do an unpaid internship, probably
:51:26. > :51:32.There was a study that came out yesterday.
:51:33. > :51:37.51% of our journalists were public school educated.
:51:38. > :51:40.Compared to 7% of the population at large.
:51:41. > :51:43.So what you end up with is a mostly white, mostly male,
:51:44. > :51:45.mostly middle-class media, based mostly in London.
:51:46. > :51:56.And the problem with that is that that narrow slice of humanity
:51:57. > :52:04.And this isn't about people being evil or being cruel.
:52:05. > :52:07.It's just simply, it shouldn't be a controversial point to say
:52:08. > :52:10.that the newsrooms of the British media should look and sound
:52:11. > :52:12.like the modern Britain in which they sit.
:52:13. > :52:15.That should not be a controversial point.
:52:16. > :52:20.It will be an unpalatable fact for you but the reality
:52:21. > :52:23.is that the people who were involved in the brutal racist killing
:52:24. > :52:26.of Stephen Lawrence would not be behind bars without the power
:52:27. > :52:30.And the editor took a great risk and could have
:52:31. > :52:34.The other thing is, of course we talk about young people.
:52:35. > :52:36.Actually, I have been in and around the newspaper
:52:37. > :52:42.I have a television show, I'm on the radio and I write
:52:43. > :52:45.a column for the Sunday express, so I cover the whole damn lot.
:52:46. > :52:47.Never has the mainstream media been more important.
:52:48. > :52:50.Because while I respect what people like them are doing and it's great
:52:51. > :52:52.and it gets kids involved, which is fantastic, don't
:52:53. > :52:55.forget that when you go to these sort of utterings,
:52:56. > :52:59.which at many times are like the mad ramblings of a man on the top deck
:53:00. > :53:01.of the bus speaking into his hand, they have no journalistic
:53:02. > :53:06.Which is why we heard that the Pope was endorsing Donald Trump.
:53:07. > :53:08.So that is why we need to give journalists,
:53:09. > :53:11.like the people who work on this show, on Question Time,
:53:12. > :53:15.who work on my radio show on LBC, because when you hear it from us,
:53:16. > :53:18.it will be true, or to the best of our endeavours it will be true.
:53:19. > :53:25.Firstly, you want to talk about facts.
:53:26. > :53:26.Firstly, our readership isn't predominantly young.
:53:27. > :53:28.Our readership is predominantly 25 to 50.
:53:29. > :53:30.I was addressing that man's question.
:53:31. > :53:38.We range from 20 through to our most veteran reporter
:53:39. > :53:41.who was a journalist in traditional media before I was even born.
:53:42. > :53:44.We are diverse ethnically, in terms of religion, Jewish,
:53:45. > :53:50.The idea that you can work for a station that
:53:51. > :54:02.You know, Nick, just this week a Muslim man was beaten
:54:03. > :54:07.to within an inch of his life, and the people painted
:54:08. > :54:13.So when we are talking about journalistic responsibility,
:54:14. > :54:15.I think we need to look at the mainstream media
:54:16. > :54:26.As a younger voter, I think that you can bleat
:54:27. > :54:29.on about different types of media, but the media report what they see.
:54:30. > :54:34.And frankly, our politicians' behaviour is such a turn-off.
:54:35. > :54:38.Both sides are point-scoring cheaply, and we had
:54:39. > :54:43.the Conservatives jeering and cheering when they voted down
:54:44. > :54:57.You can blame the different types of media for young
:54:58. > :55:01.voters not engaging, they can only report what they see.
:55:02. > :55:04.Actually, it's the behaviour of the politicians that turns us off.
:55:05. > :55:06.Zanny Minton Beddoes, as the editor of a long
:55:07. > :55:13.Very long established, and independent, I must say,
:55:14. > :55:16.Do mainstream media serve any purpose?
:55:17. > :55:25.I think there's a hunger for real news, for good analysis out there,
:55:26. > :55:27.as much among young people as older people.
:55:28. > :55:30.You have to reach people in the way that they want
:55:31. > :55:34.We reach lots of people through Facebook, through Twitter,
:55:35. > :55:37.through Snapchat, one of our biggest recent successes.
:55:38. > :55:39.You can't keep doing exactly the same as you did,
:55:40. > :55:42.but the people really value authoritative,
:55:43. > :55:51.I think it's great to have lots of voices.
:55:52. > :55:54.I think in this country, and I spent most of my career
:55:55. > :55:56.outside this country, interesting coming back how
:55:57. > :55:59.the press is dominated by a few publications.
:56:00. > :56:03.There has been an incredible power there.
:56:04. > :56:05.But that is waning, because if you look at this election
:56:06. > :56:09.result, in some sense it's a damning indictment of the power of the Daily
:56:10. > :56:15.Stella Creasy, do you think it was social media that built up
:56:16. > :56:23.Oh, look, 60% of people under 30 get their news from Facebook.
:56:24. > :56:26.Clearly, the way in which people are consuming news has changed.
:56:27. > :56:29.I think in a healthy democracy you need both news and analysis,
:56:30. > :56:33.but you need to be able to tell the difference between both.
:56:34. > :56:36.And frankly, whether it is offline or online, I think you need to have
:56:37. > :56:40.So I agree that we need to look again.
:56:41. > :56:44.We have traditionally separated broadcast and print.
:56:45. > :56:46.Our print media doesn't have the same impartiality.
:56:47. > :56:50.I think you would not say the Daily Mail was impartial.
:56:51. > :56:58.What I worry about is, I do have younger people
:56:59. > :57:01.in my community coming to me who are very critical of official
:57:02. > :57:04.sources of information and will then send me links from Russia Today
:57:05. > :57:09.I want us to be able to have a debate about sources,
:57:10. > :57:11.because I think all of you should be open to the scrutiny
:57:12. > :57:14.about what is your evidence base for the claims you are making.
:57:15. > :57:16.And I do think the new media model...
:57:17. > :57:34.Briefly, the man who asked the question.
:57:35. > :57:38.I would just like to state that today earlier on social media I put
:57:39. > :57:41.this question out with particular focus to newspapers.
:57:42. > :57:45.I had about 20 of my friends respond.
:57:46. > :57:49.Not one of them, from the age of in their 20s through to their 50s,
:57:50. > :57:55.It's all through the internet and social media.
:57:56. > :58:02.Next week, Question Time is going to be in Burton upon Trent,
:58:03. > :58:04.the last programme before the summer break.
:58:05. > :58:06.We are back on September the 14th with a programme
:58:07. > :58:11.If you want to be in the audience there in Burton upon Trent,
:58:12. > :58:14.or Stratford, if you can remember it on September the 14th,
:58:15. > :58:18.That's the best way, probably, or ring us.
:58:19. > :58:23.If you've been listening on five live, Question Time Extra
:58:24. > :58:25.Time follows and goes on until the early hours.
:58:26. > :58:31.My thanks to our panellists and to all of you who came
:58:32. > :59:13.Until next Thursday from Question Time, good night.
:59:14. > :59:16.We're not going to get out of this one, are we?