06/07/2017

0:00:04 > 0:00:06Tonight we are in Burton on Trent, and welcome to Question Time.

0:00:14 > 0:00:17And on our panel tonight, one of the leading Brexiteers

0:00:17 > 0:00:21on the Conservative backbenches, Jacob Rees-Mogg.

0:00:21 > 0:00:24Labour's Shadow Justice Secretary, Richard Burgon.

0:00:24 > 0:00:27The co-leader of the Green Party, Caroline Lucas.

0:00:27 > 0:00:30The Mirror columnist, Susie Boniface.

0:00:30 > 0:00:33And David Cameron's former Director of Communications

0:00:33 > 0:00:38during the EU referendum, Craig Oliver.

0:00:48 > 0:00:51And just to remind you, you can join in from home, of course.

0:00:51 > 0:00:53Our hashtag, BBCQT.

0:00:53 > 0:00:54On Twitter, Facebook.

0:00:54 > 0:00:56Our text number 83981.

0:00:56 > 0:01:01And our first question from Beth Astley-Serougi, please.

0:01:01 > 0:01:04Does the panel agree with David Cameron that it is selfish

0:01:04 > 0:01:07to give the public-sector a pay rise?

0:01:07 > 0:01:09David Cameron said this week it was selfish to give,

0:01:09 > 0:01:11selfish to claim that a public-sector pay

0:01:11 > 0:01:14rise was acceptable.

0:01:14 > 0:01:16It wasn't.

0:01:16 > 0:01:17Who should start on this?

0:01:17 > 0:01:22Caroline Lucas, you start.

0:01:22 > 0:01:24Well, I'll tell him what selfish is.

0:01:24 > 0:01:27Selfish is when you spend ?26,000 on a garden shed.

0:01:27 > 0:01:31Selfish is when you roll out austerity and you are meanwhile

0:01:31 > 0:01:34getting around ?100,000, is it, for every

0:01:34 > 0:01:35speech that you make.

0:01:35 > 0:01:39I mean, quite frankly, how dare he say that?

0:01:39 > 0:01:41You know, people are absolutely struggling and we know that

0:01:41 > 0:01:44when it comes to the NHS, for example, we've got more nurses

0:01:44 > 0:01:48and midwives leaving the NHS now than joining

0:01:48 > 0:01:49for the very first time.

0:01:49 > 0:01:52We've got a crisis in our NHS and we are taking our public-sector

0:01:52 > 0:02:00workers for granted.

0:02:00 > 0:02:02They are being treated with contempt by this Government.

0:02:02 > 0:02:04So absolutely we should be investing in those public services.

0:02:04 > 0:02:06Come on, we are, what is it, the fifth biggest economy

0:02:06 > 0:02:09in the world, and are we saying we can't properly pay public-sector

0:02:09 > 0:02:11workers who have been struggling for so long?

0:02:11 > 0:02:15And to see Theresa May lecture that nurse in a programme you were doing,

0:02:15 > 0:02:18David, saying there is no magic money tree, do you know what,

0:02:18 > 0:02:19the cat is out of the bag?

0:02:19 > 0:02:22Because we saw with the agreement with the DUP that there certainly

0:02:22 > 0:02:25is a magic money tree and it's worth about ?1.5 billion!

0:02:25 > 0:02:33APPLAUSE

0:02:33 > 0:02:36Of course, what he actually said was, giving up on sound finances

0:02:36 > 0:02:37isn't being generous.

0:02:37 > 0:02:38It's being selfish.

0:02:38 > 0:02:40Giving up on sound finances.

0:02:40 > 0:02:43Do you think the last seven years has been sound finances

0:02:43 > 0:02:46from this Government?

0:02:46 > 0:02:49They've missed every single target they set themselves when it came

0:02:49 > 0:02:50to getting rid of the deficit.

0:02:50 > 0:02:53They have absolutely driven this country into pretty much chaos

0:02:53 > 0:02:55when it comes to public services.

0:02:55 > 0:02:58I would love to see sound finances but I don't see it coming

0:02:58 > 0:02:59from this Government.

0:02:59 > 0:03:02Jacob Rees-Mogg.

0:03:02 > 0:03:07I think you've got to work out where we started from.

0:03:07 > 0:03:10When the Conservatives got in in 2010, a Labour minister said,

0:03:10 > 0:03:12there is no money left.

0:03:12 > 0:03:15The deficit was ?150 billion.

0:03:15 > 0:03:19Things had to be done that were difficult and unpopular,

0:03:19 > 0:03:22and were difficult for the people suffering from them.

0:03:22 > 0:03:25Nobody wants to have a situation where hard-working people aren't

0:03:25 > 0:03:27getting pay increases.

0:03:27 > 0:03:31Government doesn't do this because it's unkind.

0:03:31 > 0:03:34It does it because we had to get the public finances in order.

0:03:34 > 0:03:37Do you realise that debt interest that we pay every year is now more

0:03:37 > 0:03:44than the wage bill for the NHS?

0:03:44 > 0:03:46That's the scale of the problem.

0:03:46 > 0:03:47And the Government then has choices.

0:03:47 > 0:03:49And we, as voters, have choices.

0:03:49 > 0:03:52If you want to increase pay in the public-sector,

0:03:52 > 0:03:55you have to work out where the money comes from.

0:03:55 > 0:04:00It could come from increased taxation.

0:04:00 > 0:04:03But we currently have the highest level of tax as a percentage

0:04:03 > 0:04:08of GDP that we have had since the late 1960s.

0:04:08 > 0:04:12The top 3000 taxpayers pay as much in income tax as the lowest

0:04:12 > 0:04:169 million taxpayers.

0:04:16 > 0:04:19There is only a certain amount that you can get from them.

0:04:19 > 0:04:22So, if that's true, what do you make of what's been going on this week,

0:04:22 > 0:04:25which is the Foreign Secretary, Boris Johnson, and Michael Gove,

0:04:25 > 0:04:27two senior members, hinting or saying directly

0:04:27 > 0:04:30that the Government should give way?

0:04:30 > 0:04:33I will come to that but it's important to look at the options.

0:04:33 > 0:04:36That's one option, increased taxation.

0:04:36 > 0:04:40The other is that we borrow more and our children pay for it.

0:04:40 > 0:04:42Now, having just had another child, I don't think it's really fair

0:04:42 > 0:04:46that the first thing I should say to him is, "You're going to pay

0:04:46 > 0:04:48to make my political life a bit easier".

0:04:48 > 0:04:51And the third thing you can do is reallocate from other priorities.

0:04:51 > 0:04:52Somebody mentioned HS2.

0:04:52 > 0:04:55I happen to agree that that would not be my

0:04:55 > 0:04:56priority for spending.

0:04:56 > 0:05:03APPLAUSE

0:05:03 > 0:05:05I personally would raid the overseas aid budget,

0:05:05 > 0:05:07which I think is too big.

0:05:07 > 0:05:10APPLAUSE

0:05:10 > 0:05:13And I look forward to the ?10 billion a year net

0:05:13 > 0:05:17that we will get back once we leave the European Union.

0:05:17 > 0:05:21APPLAUSE

0:05:21 > 0:05:24What do you make of what seems to be going on in Government

0:05:24 > 0:05:26at the moment, with these voices saying,

0:05:26 > 0:05:28"She should give way, she should be more liberal

0:05:28 > 0:05:31in the public-sector pay"?

0:05:31 > 0:05:35I mention Boris Johnson, I mention Michael Gove.

0:05:35 > 0:05:37Well, you have to look at public-sector pay

0:05:37 > 0:05:40in amongst these choices

0:05:40 > 0:05:42and in amongst what would be happening to the economy.

0:05:42 > 0:05:44But I'm asking about the Government.

0:05:44 > 0:05:45Have they got one voice or six voices?

0:05:45 > 0:05:47They have one voice because they are bound

0:05:47 > 0:05:48by collective responsibility.

0:05:48 > 0:05:50They aren't doing very well at it.

0:05:50 > 0:05:52Well, we have a former spokesman, who knows how difficult

0:05:52 > 0:05:55it is sometimes to get everybody singing quite in tune.

0:05:55 > 0:05:58Although it's probably best if politicians don't sing.

0:05:58 > 0:06:03But the Government understands that these difficult choices are there.

0:06:03 > 0:06:07What Boris Johnson and Michael Gove have been saying is that they are

0:06:07 > 0:06:10recognising that there is a pressure, and that this

0:06:10 > 0:06:12leads to the debate that we are having now.

0:06:12 > 0:06:15But, ladies and gentlemen, ultimately it is up to you.

0:06:15 > 0:06:18Which of those choices do you want to make?

0:06:18 > 0:06:20Do you want to risk even higher taxes?

0:06:20 > 0:06:23Do you want to risk higher borrowing, or would you go

0:06:23 > 0:06:26with what would be my solution, and reallocate from other areas that

0:06:26 > 0:06:29are to my mind a lower priority?

0:06:29 > 0:06:34APPLAUSE

0:06:34 > 0:06:36The woman at the back there.

0:06:36 > 0:06:37On the right at the back.

0:06:37 > 0:06:40Being as you said that we haven't got a magic money tree,

0:06:40 > 0:06:44can you justify why you've actually given 1.5 billion to Northern

0:06:44 > 0:06:48Ireland and how are we actually going to pay that back?

0:06:48 > 0:06:50No, you can't answer that.

0:06:50 > 0:06:51We'll come onto it.

0:06:51 > 0:06:52Richard Burgon.

0:06:52 > 0:06:53I'd love to.

0:06:53 > 0:06:55Yes, I know you would but you've been speaking

0:06:55 > 0:06:56at some length already.

0:06:56 > 0:07:00It's good to be at the Jacob Rees-Mogg show.

0:07:00 > 0:07:03He makes some interesting points, but what he did say is that there

0:07:03 > 0:07:05are difficult choices to be made.

0:07:05 > 0:07:07And when a Conservative, whether it be Theresa May,

0:07:07 > 0:07:10whether it be Boris Johnson or Jacob says there are difficult choices

0:07:10 > 0:07:14to make, that's usually a code for cuts and bad news for those

0:07:14 > 0:07:17who can least afford it.

0:07:17 > 0:07:21And our public-sector workers, who work in our hospitals,

0:07:21 > 0:07:25work in our fire stations, work in our schools,

0:07:25 > 0:07:28are a bit sick of patronising pats on the head from Conservative

0:07:28 > 0:07:31politicians every time there's a terrible disaster,

0:07:31 > 0:07:34or every time the exam results come round.

0:07:34 > 0:07:37Because what they need is not to be thanked by Conservative politicians,

0:07:37 > 0:07:39because they get thanked by members of the public every day.

0:07:39 > 0:07:41What they need is a real pay rise.

0:07:41 > 0:07:44Because their pay hasn't stood still.

0:07:44 > 0:07:48Their pay has gone down.

0:07:48 > 0:07:50Nurses, for example, are having 14% less in real

0:07:50 > 0:07:52terms pay than in 2010, and there are stories

0:07:52 > 0:07:55of nurses using food banks.

0:07:55 > 0:08:01And when it comes to what's selfish, I think David Cameron personally

0:08:01 > 0:08:04defines selfishness, for many reasons, but partly

0:08:04 > 0:08:07because he selfishly walked away after he left this country

0:08:07 > 0:08:09in an absolute mess.

0:08:09 > 0:08:14APPLAUSE

0:08:14 > 0:08:16Let's just hear from Craig Oliver,

0:08:16 > 0:08:18who I said was David Cameron's spokesman through this.

0:08:18 > 0:08:20Have you spoken to Cameron about this comment he made?

0:08:20 > 0:08:23I haven't spoken to him specifically about this and fortunately I don't

0:08:23 > 0:08:25have to defend everything David Cameron says any more.

0:08:25 > 0:08:30But what I would say is I do think we are coming to a time, and I think

0:08:30 > 0:08:31the Conservative Government is probably recognising that

0:08:31 > 0:08:33you can't keep squeezing the public-sector in

0:08:33 > 0:08:35the way that it has been.

0:08:35 > 0:08:38People have had a real terms pay cut, and there's a struggle to fill

0:08:38 > 0:08:39nurses' and teachers' jobs.

0:08:39 > 0:08:43But the point I think is really important here is exactly

0:08:43 > 0:08:44what you were saying about the Cabinet.

0:08:44 > 0:08:47We cannot have Cabinet members going out there and making up policy

0:08:47 > 0:08:49on the hoof and pretending that there is, frankly,

0:08:49 > 0:08:53no choice to be made, no difficulty to be made.

0:08:53 > 0:08:56What needs to happen is the Government needs

0:08:56 > 0:08:58to be talking in private, making those hard choices

0:08:58 > 0:09:00and then making the case, because at the moment

0:09:00 > 0:09:04they are looking like they have no plan and they have no message.

0:09:04 > 0:09:07So Cameron has got it wrong, in your view, by saying sound

0:09:07 > 0:09:08finances are what matter?

0:09:08 > 0:09:11No, and I think it was slightly disingenuous to say that he said

0:09:11 > 0:09:13people didn't deserve a pay cut.

0:09:13 > 0:09:15A pay rise.

0:09:15 > 0:09:17I'm sorry.

0:09:17 > 0:09:19What he was saying was that what is desperately unfair

0:09:19 > 0:09:22is that we spend tomorrow's money today, because as Jacob was saying,

0:09:22 > 0:09:26that is going to affect our children and grandchildren

0:09:26 > 0:09:28and that is not fair.

0:09:28 > 0:09:33Can we just remember that when those people are being paid a pay rise,

0:09:33 > 0:09:35they therefore pay more tax on that pay rise?

0:09:35 > 0:09:38We don't have a situation where taxpayers are over

0:09:38 > 0:09:40here and public-sector workers are over there.

0:09:40 > 0:09:43public-sector workers are paying tax, and that goes

0:09:43 > 0:09:45back into the Revenue, and that creates more money,

0:09:45 > 0:09:46which you can then invest.

0:09:46 > 0:09:49So this idea that the money simply isn't there is wrong.

0:09:49 > 0:09:52And if you want to look at another place to find it,

0:09:52 > 0:09:53look at corporation tax.

0:09:53 > 0:09:56Why are we reducing corporation tax yet further, to be some kind

0:09:56 > 0:10:00of basically a tax haven floating off the side of Europe.

0:10:00 > 0:10:02That is no vision for what this country should be, trying to get

0:10:02 > 0:10:04down to 17% corporation tax.

0:10:04 > 0:10:06Corporations should pay their way, not putting everything

0:10:06 > 0:10:08on to the poorest countries.

0:10:08 > 0:10:10So you're basically saying we should borrow more money?

0:10:10 > 0:10:13No, I'm saying corporations should be paying more money,

0:10:13 > 0:10:16and I'm saying if you paid people more money, they would then pay more

0:10:16 > 0:10:18taxes and you get a virtual circle.

0:10:18 > 0:10:20I love hearing somebody who works for an investment bank talk

0:10:20 > 0:10:21about borrowing money.

0:10:21 > 0:10:24Let's just cut through the rubbish for a moment and get back

0:10:24 > 0:10:25to the original question.

0:10:25 > 0:10:26Yes, it's selfish.

0:10:26 > 0:10:31Jacob, did you take the 10% pay rise in 2015?

0:10:31 > 0:10:32Caroline?

0:10:32 > 0:10:33Caroline didn't.

0:10:33 > 0:10:35Richard, you were freshly in Parliament then, I believe.

0:10:35 > 0:10:37Well, we don't agree with austerity for everyone else.

0:10:37 > 0:10:38It's not hypocrisy because...

0:10:38 > 0:10:41Yes or no, did you take the pay rise?

0:10:41 > 0:10:42Yes or no?

0:10:42 > 0:10:44Answer the question.

0:10:44 > 0:10:46That was my question.

0:10:46 > 0:10:50I will answer your question, because as I'm a politician I'm one

0:10:50 > 0:10:52of the few members of society that is trusted even

0:10:52 > 0:10:53less than journalists.

0:10:53 > 0:10:58But what I would say is that the difference is we are not

0:10:58 > 0:11:00saying that MPs deserve the independently decided upon pay

0:11:00 > 0:11:06rise and other people don't.

0:11:06 > 0:11:09We are saying that our public-sector workers deserve a pay rise.

0:11:09 > 0:11:12And the real story of hypocrisy...

0:11:12 > 0:11:13Sorry, her question wasn't that.

0:11:13 > 0:11:16I'll wait for the Richard Burgon show for the moment.

0:11:16 > 0:11:17Caroline's right.

0:11:17 > 0:11:19The public-sector is the only group of individuals,

0:11:19 > 0:11:21and there's 5 million of them in this country, and they're

0:11:21 > 0:11:24the only group of people who pay for their own pay rises.

0:11:24 > 0:11:28None of the rest of us have to do that in any other organisation,

0:11:28 > 0:11:30and we should really stop this business that we've been

0:11:30 > 0:11:32going on now for seven years of demonising the people

0:11:32 > 0:11:35who administer our pensions, who sort out the roundabouts,

0:11:35 > 0:11:37who provide the nursing, who keep us safe with the police

0:11:37 > 0:11:40force, make sure our houses don't burn to the ground and go back

0:11:40 > 0:11:44in and pull us out when they do, and stop saying they are the reason

0:11:44 > 0:11:45we are in this problem.

0:11:45 > 0:11:48We do not have a huge amount of problems because

0:11:48 > 0:11:49of the public-sector.

0:11:49 > 0:11:52The public-sector is what stops as being just a group of individuals

0:11:52 > 0:11:54who live on a rock in the North Sea.

0:11:54 > 0:11:56The public-sector is doing something for other people,

0:11:56 > 0:11:58is what makes us a society.

0:11:58 > 0:12:00Without them, we are just feral.

0:12:00 > 0:12:03We need to say thank you to them, and thank you very much

0:12:03 > 0:12:04for everything you do.

0:12:04 > 0:12:11APPLAUSE

0:12:11 > 0:12:12I'd like to hear from our audience.

0:12:12 > 0:12:14I'd like to go back to the questioner first

0:12:14 > 0:12:16and then hear from others.

0:12:16 > 0:12:17What do you make of it?

0:12:17 > 0:12:19I think it was disgraceful that David Cameron was

0:12:19 > 0:12:20insinuating or even said that.

0:12:20 > 0:12:23I think the public-sector is what keeps this country going.

0:12:23 > 0:12:24It is vital.

0:12:24 > 0:12:26The Government can't keep saying, they are heroes, etc,

0:12:26 > 0:12:30and not back that up by giving them a pay rise.

0:12:30 > 0:12:32It's disgraceful.

0:12:32 > 0:12:33The man on the corner.

0:12:33 > 0:12:34You, sir.

0:12:34 > 0:12:39During the last eight years or so of Conservative leadership

0:12:39 > 0:12:43and eight years of cuts, we still, the Conservatives

0:12:43 > 0:12:45are still blaming Labour for the deficit.

0:12:45 > 0:12:48The deficit has actually tripled during that time.

0:12:48 > 0:12:50I mean, what's the reason for that?

0:12:50 > 0:12:52How can they still be blaming them?

0:12:52 > 0:12:53Ridiculous.

0:12:53 > 0:12:55And the man there.

0:12:55 > 0:12:57Firstly, I'd like to congratulate Jacob on the birth

0:12:57 > 0:12:58of his sixth child.

0:12:58 > 0:13:04But I also want to ask him, obviously he can afford to clothe,

0:13:04 > 0:13:07feed and educate six children.

0:13:07 > 0:13:10What does he have to say about the nurses and other members

0:13:10 > 0:13:13of the NHS who can't afford to feed themselves and house

0:13:13 > 0:13:16themselves as well?

0:13:16 > 0:13:17OK, Jacob, you answer that.

0:13:17 > 0:13:21Yes there is a slight misunderstanding, I think.

0:13:21 > 0:13:25The pay cap doesn't mean that people aren't getting any pay rises.

0:13:25 > 0:13:30There are grade increments, and the average level five nurse has

0:13:30 > 0:13:35received a 3.8% increment increase on top of the 1% guideline increase.

0:13:35 > 0:13:39So where the cut has been is on a new entrant.

0:13:39 > 0:13:45If you were a new entrant in 2010 and a new entrant now,

0:13:45 > 0:13:49you get 5% less in real terms than in 2010.

0:13:49 > 0:13:53But as in the period you've been working for the NHS you will have

0:13:53 > 0:13:55got grade increments, you will not have had

0:13:55 > 0:13:57that real terms pay cut.

0:13:57 > 0:13:59That's a very important point.

0:13:59 > 0:14:02On my own personal affairs, which I don't think are very

0:14:02 > 0:14:05relevant, but I will answer because I've been challenged

0:14:05 > 0:14:06and it's only fair that I answer.

0:14:06 > 0:14:09I take no personal living expenses at all that MPs are entitled to.

0:14:09 > 0:14:13I have always refused to take those because I don't think that

0:14:13 > 0:14:16you should subsidise my lifestyle because I can afford it.

0:14:16 > 0:14:19And that was my decision, but other MPs are not in that

0:14:19 > 0:14:25position and they ought to get an amount to help with second homes.

0:14:25 > 0:14:27Thank you.

0:14:27 > 0:14:29I'd like to hear, because you are an audience right

0:14:29 > 0:14:32across the political spectrum, I'd like to hear from somebody

0:14:32 > 0:14:34who supports what Cameron said, that sound finances are important.

0:14:34 > 0:14:41Let me hear from somebody who thinks that.

0:14:41 > 0:14:44You, sir, yes.

0:14:44 > 0:14:50With the spectacles.

0:14:50 > 0:14:53There's the gentleman over here just said that the deficit has gone up

0:14:53 > 0:14:54by three times under a Conservative

0:14:54 > 0:14:55Government, it hasn't.

0:14:55 > 0:14:58The debt's risen, the deficit's closed, they are two

0:14:58 > 0:14:59totally different things.

0:14:59 > 0:15:01I hear so many people on the television mixing the two up.

0:15:01 > 0:15:04We still have a deficit and Caroline Lucas has said

0:15:04 > 0:15:06we should bring down corporation tax - Put it up.

0:15:06 > 0:15:07Put it up, sorry.

0:15:07 > 0:15:09France have announced today they're bringing theirs down.

0:15:09 > 0:15:11We've got a lot of competitors out there.

0:15:11 > 0:15:14So, you know, we have to be very careful what we do.

0:15:14 > 0:15:16We're in choppy waters and we do need some sensible

0:15:16 > 0:15:21people at the helm.

0:15:21 > 0:15:26OK.

0:15:26 > 0:15:30APPLAUSE

0:15:30 > 0:15:32The person at the very back there. Yes.

0:15:32 > 0:15:33Me?

0:15:33 > 0:15:40I'm not saying I agree with what Cameron says -

0:15:40 > 0:15:42I'm not saying I agree with what David Cameron says,

0:15:42 > 0:15:45I'm agreeing with him that says it's not just doctors who are not

0:15:45 > 0:15:48getting a pay increase, it's everybody as a whole.

0:15:48 > 0:15:50I know there's teachers that haven't had pay increases.

0:15:50 > 0:15:53If you work out their annual wage and you work it by hourly,

0:15:53 > 0:15:55they're actually getting paid less than the living wage.

0:15:55 > 0:15:57So it's not just doctors, it's everyone collectively who's not

0:15:57 > 0:15:58getting a pay increase.

0:15:58 > 0:16:01Craig Oliver, how hard done by do you think the public-sector

0:16:01 > 0:16:02is compared with the private?

0:16:02 > 0:16:05Well, the evidence is that actually the public-sector is actually doing

0:16:05 > 0:16:07a bit better than the private-sector at the moment.

0:16:07 > 0:16:08Not normally.

0:16:08 > 0:16:11There has been reports in the last few days saying that.

0:16:11 > 0:16:12APPLAUSE

0:16:12 > 0:16:13So you think they're doing better.

0:16:13 > 0:16:14Richard.

0:16:14 > 0:16:17I think it's really important we don't try to divide working

0:16:17 > 0:16:19people into the public-sector and the private-sector and try

0:16:19 > 0:16:21and get one to resent the other.

0:16:21 > 0:16:22Politicans do that.

0:16:22 > 0:16:24The truth is, most people, whether they're working

0:16:24 > 0:16:25in the public-sector or in the private-sector,

0:16:25 > 0:16:28haven't been getting the deal they deserve since 2010 and have

0:16:28 > 0:16:29seen their living standards reduce.

0:16:29 > 0:16:32I make no apologies for praising people in the public-sector

0:16:32 > 0:16:33and the private-sector.

0:16:33 > 0:16:36What about employers themselves who run businesses and employ people?

0:16:36 > 0:16:37Good point. Let me answer it.

0:16:37 > 0:16:39You live in a bubble.

0:16:39 > 0:16:42You live in a Westminster bubble where you don't know the real world.

0:16:42 > 0:16:43OK.

0:16:43 > 0:16:45Can I answer - You don't pay business rates.

0:16:45 > 0:16:46You don't pay pensions.

0:16:46 > 0:16:47You're in a bubble.

0:16:47 > 0:16:49You are in a bubble, I'm afraid.

0:16:49 > 0:16:51You've got to start realising there are people self-employed

0:16:51 > 0:16:53in this country that generate growth whether they employ one

0:16:53 > 0:16:55person or 50 people.

0:16:55 > 0:16:58All I ever hear is - let's look after the public-sector.

0:16:58 > 0:17:07Do you know what it's like running your own business?

0:17:07 > 0:17:09You don't because you're a politician, you haven't got a clue.

0:17:09 > 0:17:15All right.

0:17:15 > 0:17:16APPLAUSE

0:17:16 > 0:17:17OK, let Richard Burgon answer that.

0:17:17 > 0:17:19OK.

0:17:19 > 0:17:21Firstly, I do live in the real world, I live in Leeds,

0:17:21 > 0:17:22the constituency I represent.

0:17:22 > 0:17:25Secondly, if you let me answer, you're right about the importance

0:17:25 > 0:17:27of small business and Labour does talk about it.

0:17:27 > 0:17:30That's why, in our manifesto, one of our policies was to bring

0:17:30 > 0:17:33in paternity pay, maternity pay and sick pay for the self-employed

0:17:33 > 0:17:36because we do - Hang on, sir, let him have his say.

0:17:36 > 0:17:37- for the self-employed.

0:17:37 > 0:17:39For the self-employed, and that's the point you're making.

0:17:39 > 0:17:41Richard, no self-employed person can cease, close down their company

0:17:41 > 0:17:44and take a year off because they've had a child.

0:17:44 > 0:17:50I had a child last year - APPLAUSE.

0:17:50 > 0:17:52Let's listen to Susie. I'll come to you.

0:17:52 > 0:17:53Susie Boniface.

0:17:53 > 0:17:55I'm self-employed, I'm afraid I don't employ other people,

0:17:55 > 0:17:58I just work for myself, but I had a child last year.

0:17:58 > 0:18:01The statutory maternity pay is ?100 a week, I'd have been on the street

0:18:01 > 0:18:03within three months if I'd relied upon that and also,

0:18:03 > 0:18:06when I went back to work, if I'd taken a year off,

0:18:06 > 0:18:09I'd have found I had no customers, no clients, no nothing.

0:18:09 > 0:18:11I'd have been absolutely on my arse.

0:18:11 > 0:18:12For the self-employed, maternity and paternity

0:18:12 > 0:18:14leave is a waste of time.

0:18:14 > 0:18:16It's not right that people who're self-employed don't get these

0:18:16 > 0:18:18benefits when they pay national insurance as well.

0:18:18 > 0:18:20So I think it's important that they have those rights

0:18:20 > 0:18:23and a Labour Government would have given them those rights.

0:18:23 > 0:18:25Who keeps my customers in place for when I go back?

0:18:25 > 0:18:28That's a decision that people who're self-employed should be able to make

0:18:28 > 0:18:30by introducing paternity pay, maternity pay and sick pay,

0:18:30 > 0:18:32that'd help them make the decision.

0:18:32 > 0:18:35I want to go to the man in the green shirt there.

0:18:35 > 0:18:37I'll come to you Caroline, suitably green, after him.

0:18:37 > 0:18:38Yes.

0:18:38 > 0:18:40We're talking about Cameron's speech, he used the word "selfish"

0:18:40 > 0:18:41about public-sector workers.

0:18:41 > 0:18:44I've worked in schools and children's services for 40 years.

0:18:44 > 0:18:47If Cameron wants to see selfless people, get into a school,

0:18:47 > 0:18:54get into a hospital, he'll see people working selflessly.

0:18:54 > 0:18:57He'll see people working past their hours.

0:18:57 > 0:19:00If he wants to see that kind of thing and say that kind of thing

0:19:00 > 0:19:04and earn the right to say it, get out and see them, they're there.

0:19:04 > 0:19:09APPLAUSE

0:19:09 > 0:19:11It's really important that you actually look

0:19:11 > 0:19:14at what David Cameron said, and what David Cameron

0:19:14 > 0:19:17said was stacking up the deficit, stacking up debt,

0:19:17 > 0:19:19which is ?1.7 trillion, is what is selfish.

0:19:19 > 0:19:21He did not accuse public-sector workers of being selfish

0:19:21 > 0:19:28in anyway, and it is wrong to say that.

0:19:28 > 0:19:29APPLAUSE

0:19:29 > 0:19:30OK.

0:19:30 > 0:19:32Somebody proposes a solution to this, Peter Bright.

0:19:32 > 0:19:35Should we reduce or scrap the foreign aid budget to help

0:19:35 > 0:19:43solve funding issues closer to home?

0:19:43 > 0:19:44APPLAUSE

0:19:44 > 0:19:47Should we reduce or scrap the foreign aid budget to help solve

0:19:47 > 0:19:48funding issues closer to home?

0:19:48 > 0:19:50You've touched on that Jacob already, so I'll

0:19:50 > 0:19:52come to you in a moment, but Caroline Lucas.

0:19:52 > 0:19:56No, I don't think we should and that's for two reasons.

0:19:56 > 0:19:57APPLAUSE

0:19:57 > 0:20:00First of all, Britain has a proud tradition of being a country that

0:20:00 > 0:20:02cares about the development in poorer countries.

0:20:02 > 0:20:06Britain also has a bit of a record, unfortunately, of having caused

0:20:06 > 0:20:09quite a few problems in poorer countries and therefore

0:20:09 > 0:20:12some justice and some recompence wouldn't go a miss.

0:20:12 > 0:20:16But also, there's a question here about what's in our own self

0:20:16 > 0:20:19interest, and if we care about a world where people can feel

0:20:19 > 0:20:21secure wherever they live, if we care about a world

0:20:21 > 0:20:24where people don't have to risk their lives on boats

0:20:24 > 0:20:30going across the Mediterranean - and there's over 2,000 people who've

0:20:30 > 0:20:31risked their lives and died in the Mediterranean

0:20:31 > 0:20:33this year alone.

0:20:33 > 0:20:37If we want to live in a safer world overall, then I think the money

0:20:37 > 0:20:39we put into our aid budget is money incredibly well spent.

0:20:39 > 0:20:42OK, and you actually want to...

0:20:42 > 0:20:44APPLAUSE

0:20:44 > 0:20:46At the election, I think you wanted to increase it

0:20:46 > 0:20:49from ?13 billion to somewhere around ?16 billion, didn't you?

0:20:49 > 0:20:51We wanted it to go to 1%, yeah.

0:20:51 > 0:20:52How many billion would that be?

0:20:52 > 0:20:54I think, as you say, from ?13 billion.

0:20:54 > 0:20:56Up from ?13 billion to ?16 billion?

0:20:56 > 0:21:01Yeah.

0:21:01 > 0:21:02So, all right.

0:21:02 > 0:21:03Jacob Rees-Mogg.

0:21:03 > 0:21:07Well, I can give a one word answer - yes.

0:21:07 > 0:21:10APPLAUSE

0:21:10 > 0:21:11I think there are real problems.

0:21:11 > 0:21:14Sorry, you can't give a one word answer because it

0:21:14 > 0:21:15was reduce or scrap?

0:21:15 > 0:21:17Well, it should be reduced or scrapped, but reduced.

0:21:17 > 0:21:18Not scrapped?

0:21:18 > 0:21:19All right.

0:21:19 > 0:21:21I would maintain emergency relief, which I think only

0:21:21 > 0:21:22the Government can do.

0:21:22 > 0:21:23APPLAUSE

0:21:23 > 0:21:26And I think there are some elements of the overseas aid budget

0:21:26 > 0:21:28where money has been very well spent.

0:21:28 > 0:21:31The money on camps near Syria, to provide people with a place

0:21:31 > 0:21:33of refuge, when they are fleeing in fear of their lives,

0:21:33 > 0:21:36I think is something we should be proud of what our

0:21:36 > 0:21:40country has done.

0:21:40 > 0:21:42APPLAUSE

0:21:42 > 0:21:44Sponsoring the Ethiopian Spice Girls and the various other things

0:21:44 > 0:21:46where money has gone are not money well spent.

0:21:46 > 0:21:49I think that should be done by, ladies and gentlemen,

0:21:49 > 0:21:50your private charity.

0:21:50 > 0:21:53All of you, I expect, give to charity and you can choose.

0:21:53 > 0:21:56It's not for politicians to take your money in general

0:21:56 > 0:22:02taxation and give it to charitable causes.

0:22:02 > 0:22:06But if you want development, and my background is

0:22:06 > 0:22:09as an emerging markets investor, what you want to help

0:22:09 > 0:22:11countries succeed is trade.

0:22:11 > 0:22:18South Korea is the most wonderful and impressive nation.

0:22:18 > 0:22:20After the Korean War, it's GDP per capita

0:22:20 > 0:22:22was lower than Somaliland.

0:22:22 > 0:22:24It is now an OECD nation.

0:22:24 > 0:22:26It's one of the 30th richest countries in the world

0:22:26 > 0:22:31and it's done that by trade because we were willing

0:22:31 > 0:22:35to buy their goods and that's a great opportunity -

0:22:35 > 0:22:38to come to a subject we may come to later,

0:22:38 > 0:22:41once we're out of the European Union and take away all the customs

0:22:41 > 0:22:43tariffs, that we impose still on developing nations,

0:22:43 > 0:22:45to help them boost themselves by selling us things we want.

0:22:45 > 0:22:47Peter Bright's question was "to help solve funding

0:22:47 > 0:22:48issues closer to home."

0:22:48 > 0:22:51Are you arguing that we should cut the ?13 billion that goes abroad

0:22:51 > 0:22:56and use it for the nurses and for the teachers?

0:22:56 > 0:22:59Well, you've got to be very careful because I don't want to fall

0:22:59 > 0:23:03into the trap of spending the same money many times, and you may notice

0:23:03 > 0:23:05that politicians do this.

0:23:05 > 0:23:08They say they'd cut the overseas aid budget and then they're going to pay

0:23:08 > 0:23:11for nurses and teachers and a new hospital and more money

0:23:11 > 0:23:13on the defence services and so on and so forth.

0:23:13 > 0:23:16So I think you've got to work out your choices.

0:23:16 > 0:23:18Where would you put it?

0:23:18 > 0:23:27Where would yours?

0:23:27 > 0:23:30At the moment, I would put it into housing.

0:23:30 > 0:23:32I think that is the greatest issue facing our nation,

0:23:32 > 0:23:38obviously following what happened in Grenfell Tower, I think there's

0:23:38 > 0:23:41going to need to be significant Government expenditure in that area,

0:23:41 > 0:23:45and I think that would be a sensible way to find it and apply it.

0:23:45 > 0:23:46APPLAUSE

0:23:46 > 0:23:47Craig Oliver?

0:23:47 > 0:23:50I think the foreign aid budget is a very easy target for people

0:23:50 > 0:23:53and they seem to think that you can just take it and apply

0:23:53 > 0:23:55it to all our problems and everything will be solved.

0:23:55 > 0:23:58But I think we live in a compassionate country

0:23:58 > 0:24:01and I think we also made a promise to some of the poorest

0:24:01 > 0:24:02people in the world.

0:24:02 > 0:24:04You see projects like The Gabby Project, which deals with malaria,

0:24:04 > 0:24:06it's done an amazing job out there.

0:24:06 > 0:24:08If compassion isn't really doing it for you, then

0:24:08 > 0:24:13there's our national security.

0:24:13 > 0:24:16I saw, when we were in Government, that Ebola, which was a real

0:24:16 > 0:24:18threat to the world, was solved because British money

0:24:18 > 0:24:21went into Liberia and Sierra Leone and it made a real difference.

0:24:21 > 0:24:24At a time when this country is considering Brexit,

0:24:24 > 0:24:27I would say using soft power around the world, we're going to need

0:24:27 > 0:24:29as much friends as we can, so it's money well spent.

0:24:29 > 0:24:35APPLAUSE

0:24:35 > 0:24:38If I go to the question, Peter Bright, what do you think?

0:24:38 > 0:24:41I think when times are really difficult, like with all the public

0:24:41 > 0:24:44spending issues we have right now, I don't think it'd be a bad thing

0:24:44 > 0:24:47to have a dynamic foreign aid budget, so when times are good

0:24:47 > 0:24:50we can give a little bit more and when times are tough,

0:24:50 > 0:24:53and we need to sort out some problems at home, maybe

0:24:53 > 0:24:56we could scale it back a little bit and help the nurses

0:24:56 > 0:24:57and teachers and doctors.

0:24:57 > 0:24:58APPLAUSE

0:24:58 > 0:24:59Susie Boniface.

0:24:59 > 0:25:01Well, Peter, in answer to your question, I don't think it

0:25:01 > 0:25:03should be reduced or scrapped.

0:25:03 > 0:25:06I don't think it's an either or sum that it's us or them,

0:25:06 > 0:25:08but I do think you can render it totally unnecessary

0:25:08 > 0:25:10to have a foreign aid budget in the first place.

0:25:10 > 0:25:13Now, as Jacob mentioned, emergency relief, which always gets

0:25:13 > 0:25:15forgotten about when people talk about scrapping foreign aid, going

0:25:15 > 0:25:16to help people in disaster zones.

0:25:16 > 0:25:18I don't think anybody wants to scrap that.

0:25:18 > 0:25:20We have to protect that part of the budget.

0:25:20 > 0:25:23But the other part of emergency foreign aid which people

0:25:23 > 0:25:25often complain about, the Ethiopian Spice Girls funding,

0:25:25 > 0:25:26and this kind of thing.

0:25:26 > 0:25:28I've been in disaster areas where I've seen the aid

0:25:28 > 0:25:31come in off a plane, go in a warehouse and come out

0:25:31 > 0:25:33the back again being sold on.

0:25:33 > 0:25:37I've seen corporate regimes being propped up by governments

0:25:37 > 0:25:41in what they call soft power and it's wrong and it's not fair

0:25:41 > 0:25:43and it's not reasonable and it's not the way we should

0:25:43 > 0:25:44have our money being spent.

0:25:44 > 0:25:47But what we could do is, if we spent every single penny

0:25:47 > 0:25:50of that part of the foreign aid budget on schools.

0:25:50 > 0:25:52If we could put a school, the entire western world,

0:25:52 > 0:25:55could put a school in every village in the world, we could educate every

0:25:55 > 0:25:58child and, in 20 years, they wouldn't need our

0:25:58 > 0:25:59help any more.

0:25:59 > 0:26:01They would be able to lift themselves out of whatever

0:26:01 > 0:26:02problems they have.

0:26:02 > 0:26:04We wouldn't have to keep funding them.

0:26:04 > 0:26:06That would surely be the best long-term aim,

0:26:06 > 0:26:09is to ensure that we don't have to keep throwing aid at corrupt

0:26:09 > 0:26:11regimes and the Del Boys who are selling aid out

0:26:11 > 0:26:12the back of warehouses.

0:26:12 > 0:26:13APPLAUSE

0:26:13 > 0:26:16The man at the very back there, in the blue shirt.

0:26:16 > 0:26:17You there, in the back row.

0:26:17 > 0:26:20I'm Danish and I've lived here for 30 years, I see people

0:26:20 > 0:26:22here squabbling over aid to countries that are

0:26:22 > 0:26:23poorer than we are.

0:26:23 > 0:26:25We do not want for anything.

0:26:25 > 0:26:27The easiest thing to solve this problem is, the Government

0:26:27 > 0:26:30or the next politicians, on the next election, to say -

0:26:30 > 0:26:321p more income tax, that will solve the problem rather

0:26:32 > 0:26:34than scaremongering and go, you have to pay more tax

0:26:34 > 0:26:37if anybody else comes in.

0:26:37 > 0:26:40OK, Richard Burgon.

0:26:40 > 0:26:43Well, I think we need to be able to be proud of Britain's role

0:26:43 > 0:26:46in the world when it comes to supporting some of the poorest

0:26:46 > 0:26:49people in the world and some of the people living

0:26:49 > 0:26:51through situations that, thank goodness, we don't

0:26:51 > 0:26:52have to live through.

0:26:52 > 0:26:56But I think sometimes it is easy to assume that if we didn't

0:26:56 > 0:27:00have a foreign aid budget, then all these awful things that

0:27:00 > 0:27:03have happened in this country, because the Government's unnecessary

0:27:03 > 0:27:05political decisions, wouldn't happen.

0:27:05 > 0:27:08The bedroom tax doesn't exist because of the foreign aid budget.

0:27:08 > 0:27:12The fact that people don't get paid a real living wage doesn't exist

0:27:12 > 0:27:16because of the foreign aid budget.

0:27:16 > 0:27:19The housing crisis doesn't exist because of the foreign aid budget

0:27:19 > 0:27:22and the failure of the state locally and nationally to be give

0:27:22 > 0:27:24the proper support to people after the Grenfell Tower disaster

0:27:24 > 0:27:29is nothing to do with the foreign aid budget.

0:27:29 > 0:27:31APPLAUSE

0:27:31 > 0:27:32OK.

0:27:32 > 0:27:34We are half-way through our programme.

0:27:34 > 0:27:35I'm going...

0:27:35 > 0:27:36Could I say one thing.

0:27:36 > 0:27:38Say one thing.

0:27:38 > 0:27:40I just want to say, having worked for a development

0:27:40 > 0:27:42organisation for ten years, I just want to challenge

0:27:42 > 0:27:44the view of development and aid that's been given,

0:27:44 > 0:27:47particularly by Susie just now.

0:27:47 > 0:27:49Of course there are some places where corporation happens.

0:27:49 > 0:27:51Of course there are and that is wrong.

0:27:51 > 0:27:54But also I just want to say that there is so much positive

0:27:54 > 0:27:57stories to be told about our aid budget and the way in

0:27:57 > 0:27:59which it is supporting women's empowerment, for example.

0:27:59 > 0:28:02I also want to say it isn't just to do with charity,

0:28:02 > 0:28:04there is a question here about justice.

0:28:04 > 0:28:07For years and years this country has essentially had a trade policy

0:28:07 > 0:28:09which is undermining the lives of poorest people in poorer

0:28:09 > 0:28:11countries because we are basically exporting goods into their markets

0:28:11 > 0:28:14which undermine the prices that their farmers get for it.

0:28:14 > 0:28:18So there is something here about justice, it's

0:28:18 > 0:28:20not just about charity.

0:28:20 > 0:28:22We live in a very, very interconnected world.

0:28:22 > 0:28:24We've had an impact on the rest of the world.

0:28:24 > 0:28:27Some of it's good, but some of it is less good and it's

0:28:27 > 0:28:29about time we addressed that well.

0:28:29 > 0:28:31All right, I want to go on.

0:28:31 > 0:28:34We get this question time and again, ever since the election,

0:28:34 > 0:28:36indeed before the election.

0:28:36 > 0:28:39I want a show of hands and see if you could...

0:28:39 > 0:28:42How many of you believe in what Peter Bright suggested

0:28:42 > 0:28:44reducing or scrapping the foreign aid budget?

0:28:44 > 0:28:47Could you stick your hands up and let's just see.

0:28:47 > 0:28:50How many of you think we should keep it as it is?

0:28:50 > 0:28:51Yeah, that's pretty evenly divided.

0:28:51 > 0:28:53Thank you very much.

0:28:53 > 0:28:57Question Time, we're off the air over the summer.

0:28:57 > 0:29:00Question Time is back on Thursday, 14th September.

0:29:00 > 0:29:02Just to say this, so you know where things stand.

0:29:02 > 0:29:04It's not too early to apply.

0:29:04 > 0:29:06We're going to be in Stratford in East London and Bridgwater

0:29:06 > 0:29:09in Somerset on the 21st.

0:29:09 > 0:29:12So if you want to apply, you can go online, the address is there.

0:29:12 > 0:29:15Let's go on with another question.

0:29:15 > 0:29:17Ashmal Qamar, please, let's have your question, can we?

0:29:17 > 0:29:18OK.

0:29:18 > 0:29:21Given that 48% voted Remain, why is a hard Brexit being seen

0:29:21 > 0:29:23as the will of the people?

0:29:23 > 0:29:28Ah, well.

0:29:28 > 0:29:31Craig Oliver, you were the man there right through the campaign and lost.

0:29:31 > 0:29:3348%.

0:29:33 > 0:29:35Why do you think hard Brexit is being considered

0:29:35 > 0:29:38the will of the people, if indeed it is?

0:29:38 > 0:29:41Well, look, I accept that Remain lost a referendum and I accept

0:29:41 > 0:29:45that we are going to leave the EU.

0:29:45 > 0:29:48But what I don't accept is that we need to have

0:29:48 > 0:29:51an ideological, hard-line Brexit.

0:29:51 > 0:29:54It's a real problem for this country and I worry that the Government

0:29:54 > 0:29:57is putting red lines ahead of realism and putting principle

0:29:57 > 0:29:58before practical necessity.

0:29:58 > 0:30:02I was talking to somebody in the Cabinet the other day

0:30:02 > 0:30:06and they told me that Liam Fox is struggling to come up with any

0:30:06 > 0:30:09evidence that he will do international trade deals that

0:30:09 > 0:30:12will in any way balance out leaving the single market

0:30:12 > 0:30:14and the customs union.

0:30:14 > 0:30:16We are in a situation where inflation is rising

0:30:16 > 0:30:19at the moment because our currency is dropping because of Brexit.

0:30:19 > 0:30:22There's been a 75% drop in investment in the car industry,

0:30:22 > 0:30:2596% fewer nurses from the EU are applying to come to Britain.

0:30:25 > 0:30:32Now, Chris Patten was talking about the general election.

0:30:32 > 0:30:35He said the Conservative Party was overconfident and they thought

0:30:35 > 0:30:38it was going to be a walk in the park and it turned out to be

0:30:38 > 0:30:42a walk in a cemetery.

0:30:42 > 0:30:44Let's make sure we don't make the same mistake on Brexit.

0:30:44 > 0:30:45OK.

0:30:45 > 0:30:50APPLAUSE

0:30:50 > 0:30:53What do you make of this week's poll which says 54% would now

0:30:53 > 0:30:54vote to remain in the EU?

0:30:54 > 0:30:55Well, I think...

0:30:55 > 0:30:57Does it make you feel you screwed up pretty badly?

0:30:57 > 0:31:00No, I think it's extremely volatile out there and I think anybody

0:31:00 > 0:31:03who trusts an opinion poll at the moment, as we were saying

0:31:03 > 0:31:05before the programme, it's a pretty tricky time.

0:31:05 > 0:31:07Opinion polls are not very accurate at the moment.

0:31:07 > 0:31:11But what I do think is clear, I used to spend a lot of my time

0:31:11 > 0:31:13talking to businesses and they are incredibly worried

0:31:13 > 0:31:16about the fact that they can't move people in and out of this country.

0:31:16 > 0:31:19They are saying, "We might have to move our headquarters

0:31:19 > 0:31:20abroad because of this".

0:31:20 > 0:31:22Now, people who want to be ideological about that need

0:31:22 > 0:31:26to listen to that because we need a Brexit that works for the economy

0:31:26 > 0:31:28and jobs and not ideology.

0:31:28 > 0:31:33Jacob Rees-Mogg.

0:31:33 > 0:31:36You are either in the European Union, or you leave it.

0:31:36 > 0:31:42APPLAUSE

0:31:42 > 0:31:45This is not only my view, this is the view of Donald Tusk,

0:31:45 > 0:31:49one of the presidents of the European Union,

0:31:49 > 0:31:51who said there is no such thing as hard and soft Brexit,

0:31:51 > 0:31:54there is being in the European Union, or out.

0:31:54 > 0:31:56And if we're out of the European Union, we cannot

0:31:56 > 0:31:58have our laws determined by the European Court of Justice.

0:31:58 > 0:32:02We cannot have all our regulations set by being in the internal market.

0:32:02 > 0:32:05And we can't lose all our trading opportunities by being

0:32:05 > 0:32:06in the customs union.

0:32:06 > 0:32:09And this was clear at the election.

0:32:09 > 0:32:11I brought a quotation in case this came up,

0:32:11 > 0:32:13from Wolfgang Schaeuble, a very senior German politician.

0:32:13 > 0:32:17He let the cat out of the bag after the referendum because he said

0:32:17 > 0:32:20he had been asked to say this by one George Osborne, the then Chancellor.

0:32:20 > 0:32:23And he said, "If the majority in Britain opt for Brexit

0:32:23 > 0:32:26that would be a decision against the single market".

0:32:26 > 0:32:30In is in.

0:32:30 > 0:32:31Out is out.

0:32:31 > 0:32:33We knew what we were voting for.

0:32:33 > 0:32:35We voted.

0:32:35 > 0:32:36APPLAUSE

0:32:36 > 0:32:40And democracy must deliver.

0:32:40 > 0:32:45Now what Craig was talking about, with companies, that's

0:32:45 > 0:32:47then our own immigration policy.

0:32:47 > 0:32:50We could have an immigration policy that makes it easy for senior

0:32:50 > 0:32:54executives to come in and go, or we could have a lunatic one that

0:32:54 > 0:32:57stops them coming in.

0:32:57 > 0:33:01But that's got nothing to do with being in the European Union.

0:33:01 > 0:33:04Indeed, we could have a better one because we could have the same

0:33:04 > 0:33:06for Americans, Australians and Indians, as we have for

0:33:06 > 0:33:10Belgians, Romanians and Bulgarians.

0:33:10 > 0:33:11And that would be our choice.

0:33:11 > 0:33:13It would be nothing to do with the EU.

0:33:13 > 0:33:16And we can deal with inflation because we have very

0:33:16 > 0:33:19high tariffs on food and on clothing and footwear.

0:33:19 > 0:33:21So the word hard Brexit doesn't actually mean anything to you?

0:33:21 > 0:33:24Hard Brexit is a term used by people who don't want us

0:33:24 > 0:33:27to leave the European Union and regret the results.

0:33:27 > 0:33:29And they pretend there is a soft Brexit.

0:33:29 > 0:33:35APPLAUSE

0:33:35 > 0:33:38Jacob, you said something tonight that's simply not true.

0:33:38 > 0:33:40You're saying it's absolutely binary, and that you can't leave

0:33:40 > 0:33:43the EU and actually have some of the benefits of it.

0:33:43 > 0:33:45Well, you can.

0:33:45 > 0:33:48You could decide to have the ECJ, the European Court of Justice,

0:33:48 > 0:33:50have some jurisdiction.

0:33:50 > 0:33:52You could choose to have the customs union.

0:33:52 > 0:33:55I've been told that in Government they understand that you'd have

0:33:55 > 0:33:58to increase trade with far-flung markets by 4000% to balance

0:33:58 > 0:34:03the problems of leaving the customs union and the single market.

0:34:03 > 0:34:07You are taking people for fools if you are claiming that it is just

0:34:07 > 0:34:10simply a binary decision and it's not going to have any

0:34:10 > 0:34:11impact on the economy.

0:34:11 > 0:34:13Because it is already.

0:34:13 > 0:34:15This is terminological inexactitude.

0:34:15 > 0:34:18The truth is that if we still have our laws determined

0:34:18 > 0:34:21by the European Court of Justice, then our Parliament is no longer

0:34:21 > 0:34:24able to make all our laws and the votes of the British people

0:34:24 > 0:34:26do not count, because our laws are made and interpreted

0:34:26 > 0:34:30by a foreign court.

0:34:30 > 0:34:32That's nonsense.

0:34:32 > 0:34:34We're under the ECJ now and we make laws.

0:34:34 > 0:34:36We are under the ECJ now, and we voted to leave.

0:34:36 > 0:34:37Nonsense.

0:34:37 > 0:34:41We cannot allow our law to be overturned by Brussels if we have

0:34:41 > 0:34:42left the European Union.

0:34:42 > 0:34:47APPLAUSE

0:34:47 > 0:34:51It is not only a binary decision, it is a most

0:34:51 > 0:34:53obviously binary one.

0:34:53 > 0:34:55Who your judges are, who interprets your law,

0:34:55 > 0:34:59is fundamental to whether you're an independent nation or not.

0:34:59 > 0:35:02Jacob, we set tax in this country, we set security in this country,

0:35:02 > 0:35:04defence, education, health.

0:35:04 > 0:35:06Once you go past that, there is very little

0:35:06 > 0:35:08that the European Court can get involved in.

0:35:08 > 0:35:12I'm so glad that we set tax in this country.

0:35:12 > 0:35:15We can't set the tax rate on women's sanitary items because that's

0:35:15 > 0:35:16determined by the European Union.

0:35:16 > 0:35:19Susie Boniface.

0:35:19 > 0:35:25Isn't it wonderful that a referendum that was called in order to stop

0:35:25 > 0:35:27the Tories arguing has done such a brilliant job?

0:35:27 > 0:35:29They are fighting like cats in a sack.

0:35:29 > 0:35:31If we ever do Brexit, they won't know what to argue

0:35:31 > 0:35:33about at their dinner parties, will they?

0:35:33 > 0:35:36The fact is that Brexit, whether you voted Leave or Remain,

0:35:36 > 0:35:37was not a win or lose situation.

0:35:37 > 0:35:41You were at a fork in the road, and we opted for one fork.

0:35:41 > 0:35:42ALARM BEEPS

0:35:42 > 0:35:44And now we are in this situation,

0:35:44 > 0:35:45we're all going down that fork.

0:35:45 > 0:35:46It's time for bed.

0:35:46 > 0:35:55This is my stopwatch saying it's bedtime.

0:35:55 > 0:35:59Carry on, Susie.

0:35:59 > 0:36:03We've gone down a fork and the fact is that Brexit is now the most

0:36:03 > 0:36:04important issue of a generation.

0:36:04 > 0:36:08It's not going to affect most of us in this room particularly that much.

0:36:08 > 0:36:09It's going to affect our children and grandchildren

0:36:09 > 0:36:12more than it does us.

0:36:12 > 0:36:14And this is a situation where politicians who are sitting

0:36:14 > 0:36:16here bitching and arguing, frankly, about stuff

0:36:16 > 0:36:18they can't know the answer to, should put their egos and ideologies

0:36:18 > 0:36:20to one side.

0:36:20 > 0:36:23All our parties should come together in a rainbow coalition and get us

0:36:23 > 0:36:25through this next period of Brexit, together, for our best

0:36:25 > 0:36:26interests, not in theirs.

0:36:26 > 0:36:34APPLAUSE

0:36:34 > 0:36:37You, sir, in the third row from the back with spectacles on.

0:36:37 > 0:36:39Yes, I can't believe we're still arguing about Brexit

0:36:39 > 0:36:40after the recent tragedies.

0:36:40 > 0:36:44We're going out of Europe and that's it.

0:36:44 > 0:36:48And about time we realised that.

0:36:48 > 0:36:50OK, and you in the front.

0:36:50 > 0:36:53The problem is actually the Leave guys didn't know

0:36:53 > 0:36:56what they were campaigning for, so those of us voting also didn't

0:36:56 > 0:36:57really know what's going to happen.

0:36:57 > 0:37:00It was a campaign based on, we're going to leave the EU

0:37:00 > 0:37:03hopefully but we don't know what's going to happen after that.

0:37:03 > 0:37:06So the hard Brexit, soft Brexit, the people who voted to stay,

0:37:06 > 0:37:08generally were the young people that are actually going

0:37:08 > 0:37:09to be affected by it.

0:37:09 > 0:37:12When you're just going, it doesn't matter about you lot,

0:37:12 > 0:37:14it's fine, we're going to go for the hard Brexit.

0:37:14 > 0:37:15Get on with it.

0:37:15 > 0:37:18You know, you might have kids, grandkids, you're going

0:37:18 > 0:37:19to have to live with it.

0:37:19 > 0:37:20Richard Burgon.

0:37:20 > 0:37:25Well, Britain is leaving the European Union.

0:37:25 > 0:37:27Labour did campaign, as everyone knows, passionately,

0:37:27 > 0:37:28for a remain and reform agenda.

0:37:28 > 0:37:30Passionately?

0:37:30 > 0:37:33Seven out of ten!

0:37:33 > 0:37:35It was passionate.

0:37:35 > 0:37:37The fact is...

0:37:37 > 0:37:38LAUGHTER

0:37:38 > 0:37:41The fact is, Jeremy Corbyn and his team toured

0:37:41 > 0:37:43the length and breadth of the country putting forward

0:37:43 > 0:37:46the argument that we should remain in the European Union but reform it

0:37:46 > 0:37:50to make it more democratic so it is run more in the interests

0:37:50 > 0:37:52of the majority of people.

0:37:52 > 0:37:55However, the vote has taken place.

0:37:55 > 0:37:57Labour respects and accepts the outcome of the referendum.

0:37:57 > 0:38:02Britain is leaving the European Union.

0:38:02 > 0:38:05And at a time when we've had years and years of trust

0:38:05 > 0:38:07in politicians reducing, I think it would be very,

0:38:07 > 0:38:11very dangerous for the political establishment to be perceived

0:38:11 > 0:38:14as trying to wriggle out of a decision in saying to people,

0:38:14 > 0:38:18vote again and again until they get the answer the MPs want.

0:38:18 > 0:38:21Is Labour's view that we stay in the single market?

0:38:21 > 0:38:24Labour wants an economy first Brexit, jobs first Brexit.

0:38:24 > 0:38:27What we want is a risk free access to the single market

0:38:27 > 0:38:31and the equivalent benefits of being in the customs union.

0:38:31 > 0:38:34And that means there's going to be a lot of tough

0:38:34 > 0:38:37negotiating to take place.

0:38:37 > 0:38:41You think the EU are just posturing when they say you can't do that?

0:38:41 > 0:38:45Well, I know that the EU has said that Britain has to be

0:38:45 > 0:38:47in the single market, and come what may, but that's

0:38:47 > 0:38:53the point of negotiations.

0:38:53 > 0:38:55There's 18 months of these negotiations to take place.

0:38:55 > 0:38:56That's a starting point.

0:38:56 > 0:38:58We need to go in there.

0:38:58 > 0:39:01I think it's right as well, by the way, that Labour has said

0:39:01 > 0:39:03that all EU citizens who made their lives here,

0:39:03 > 0:39:05some 3 million of them, should get to stay.

0:39:05 > 0:39:06That's very important.

0:39:06 > 0:39:09And that we therefore invite the EU to make a reciprocal

0:39:09 > 0:39:15arrangement for UK citizens.

0:39:15 > 0:39:17The chief negotiator says you can't stay in the single market,

0:39:17 > 0:39:20you can't just think you can stay in and keep all the benefits,

0:39:20 > 0:39:21it's not possible.

0:39:21 > 0:39:23That's what negotiations are for.

0:39:23 > 0:39:24That's his opening negotiating gambit.

0:39:24 > 0:39:28We're going to negotiate.

0:39:28 > 0:39:31I was just going to say that Labour continues to speak out of both sides

0:39:31 > 0:39:33of its mouth on Brexit.

0:39:33 > 0:39:35As somebody who sat in the referendum campaign and had

0:39:35 > 0:39:37people like John McDonnell and Jeremy Corbyn cancel

0:39:37 > 0:39:40interviews at the last minute, and then just go on and criticise

0:39:40 > 0:39:41the campaign, rather than passionately campaigning

0:39:41 > 0:39:47for it, it's just simply not true.

0:39:47 > 0:39:49And perhaps you can clear something up tonight.

0:39:49 > 0:39:51Does the Labour Party believe we should stay

0:39:51 > 0:39:53in the single market, the customs union and

0:39:53 > 0:39:54the European Court of Justice?

0:39:54 > 0:39:56Because millions of people voted for you thinking

0:39:56 > 0:39:57that is your policy.

0:39:57 > 0:40:00Well, I've just said that what we want is tariff-free access

0:40:00 > 0:40:02to the single market.

0:40:02 > 0:40:04And there's a tactical difference of opinion between some

0:40:04 > 0:40:07in the Labour Party.

0:40:07 > 0:40:10Some think that means we have to be in the single market,

0:40:10 > 0:40:12and some think that means we can get tariff-free access

0:40:12 > 0:40:13to the single market.

0:40:13 > 0:40:17There's a long way to go with these negotiations but what we want to do

0:40:17 > 0:40:19with these negotiations is yes, put democracy first,

0:40:19 > 0:40:21but also put the economy and jobs centre stage.

0:40:21 > 0:40:27But we don't want is what the Tories want, which is to try and use Brexit

0:40:27 > 0:40:30as a smoke screen to create a low-tax haven for the super-rich

0:40:30 > 0:40:33off the shores of Europe.

0:40:33 > 0:40:36The final thing I'd say is this.

0:40:36 > 0:40:40The reality is that, as things stand, the way the economy is run,

0:40:40 > 0:40:44whether we are in the European Union or out of the European Union,

0:40:44 > 0:40:47the majority of people, 99% of people, are still being held

0:40:47 > 0:40:48back, and that's a problem.

0:40:48 > 0:40:52Society isn't fair as it is now, whether we are in the European Union

0:40:52 > 0:40:53or out of the European Union.

0:40:53 > 0:40:58APPLAUSE

0:40:58 > 0:41:00The woman up there, second row from the back.

0:41:00 > 0:41:01Yes.

0:41:01 > 0:41:03I agree with the previous lady's point at the front.

0:41:03 > 0:41:06Jacob said earlier that we knew what we were voting

0:41:06 > 0:41:09for when we voted in the EU referendum, but I don't believe that

0:41:09 > 0:41:10a lot of people did.

0:41:10 > 0:41:13What about the famous slogan on the side of that bus?

0:41:13 > 0:41:15What's happened to that.

0:41:15 > 0:41:18A lot of people didn't understand fully what we were voting for.

0:41:18 > 0:41:20Caroline Lucas, do you agree with that point?

0:41:20 > 0:41:23I absolutely do agree with it, and I don't think it's patronising.

0:41:23 > 0:41:25I don't think it's patronising because the Leave campaigners,

0:41:25 > 0:41:28the leaders of the Leave campaign, didn't do it by accident.

0:41:28 > 0:41:30They were very deliberately not nailing their colours to any

0:41:30 > 0:41:33particular version of what Leave would look like, because they knew

0:41:33 > 0:41:37if they did that they would actually have a divided campaign.

0:41:37 > 0:41:40So I sat on plenty of panels alongside Dan Hannan,

0:41:40 > 0:41:43one of the prominent MEPs from the Tory party who said again

0:41:43 > 0:41:46and again, of course we'll be able to stay in the single market.

0:41:46 > 0:41:48Leaving the EU, of course it's possible to stay

0:41:48 > 0:41:49in the single market.

0:41:49 > 0:41:51So people didn't necessarily know what a hard Brexit,

0:41:51 > 0:41:52what a soft Brexit was.

0:41:52 > 0:41:54It wasn't on the ballot paper.

0:41:54 > 0:41:57And my point would be that Theresa May does not have a mandate

0:41:57 > 0:41:59for the kind of Brexit she's trying to pursue.

0:41:59 > 0:42:02She didn't have a mandate on the 23rd of June because it

0:42:02 > 0:42:05wasn't there on the ballot paper in the referendum, and she certainly

0:42:05 > 0:42:08doesn't have it now, when she went back to the country

0:42:08 > 0:42:11to try to get a mandate from harder Brexit and had it thrown back

0:42:11 > 0:42:13in her face and she's got a smaller majority.

0:42:13 > 0:42:16What we are saying in the Green Party is that now that

0:42:16 > 0:42:19people are beginning to learn more about what Brexit really means,

0:42:19 > 0:42:21learning, for example, that there is not ?350 million

0:42:21 > 0:42:23going to the NHS every week, if only there were,

0:42:23 > 0:42:26and as Craig has already said, the economic consequences of Brexit

0:42:26 > 0:42:28are becoming clearer, that is why I think it would be

0:42:28 > 0:42:32right to give people the right to have the final say on the deal

0:42:32 > 0:42:34that comes back from Brussels.

0:42:34 > 0:42:37So when the negotiations have finished, come back to the people,

0:42:37 > 0:42:39not just to Parliament, which is what Theresa May is saying,

0:42:39 > 0:42:41give it back to the people.

0:42:41 > 0:42:44You started this process, you should be able to end it.

0:42:44 > 0:42:46If you like it, then go for it.

0:42:46 > 0:42:51But if you don't, then you should be able to stay in.

0:42:51 > 0:42:56APPLAUSE

0:42:56 > 0:42:59On that point of the people having a second say in a referendum.

0:42:59 > 0:43:02It's the first say on the deal.

0:43:02 > 0:43:04It's not a second say, it's the first say on the deal.

0:43:04 > 0:43:07This is characteristic of the EU.

0:43:07 > 0:43:09Vote in the way that Brussels doesn't like,

0:43:09 > 0:43:11and you have to vote again until you've done

0:43:11 > 0:43:15what they tell you.

0:43:15 > 0:43:19It seems to me, we had a referendum, we decided to leave,

0:43:19 > 0:43:21and that must be implemented, or we deny democracy.

0:43:21 > 0:43:29You, sir.

0:43:29 > 0:43:32I just want to say, I'm sick and tired from

0:43:32 > 0:43:35the younger generation, younger voters, of ageism.

0:43:35 > 0:43:37Anybody who's middle-aged or above is accused of, "Oh,

0:43:37 > 0:43:39well, you don't care, your vote doesn't matter

0:43:39 > 0:43:42to us", and all this.

0:43:42 > 0:43:46And then the likes of Caroline and others, who basically accuse us

0:43:46 > 0:43:49of not knowing why we voted.

0:43:49 > 0:43:53My decision to leave was made up a long, long time

0:43:53 > 0:43:56before the referendum, like most people I spoke to.

0:43:56 > 0:43:59That rubbish on the side of the bus, I didn't personally believe.

0:43:59 > 0:44:01I thought, yes, we're going to get some of the money

0:44:01 > 0:44:02back into the coffers.

0:44:02 > 0:44:05But I didn't believe that all that money is going into the NHS.

0:44:05 > 0:44:11And anybody who believed that was stupid anyway.

0:44:11 > 0:44:14But, sir, there are people out there who voted Leave thinking that

0:44:14 > 0:44:16that would still allow them to be part of the single market.

0:44:16 > 0:44:19There are people, self-evidently, out there who did believe that.

0:44:19 > 0:44:20So it's very clear.

0:44:20 > 0:44:24The people I speak to had made their minds up well before

0:44:24 > 0:44:27the referendum was called.

0:44:27 > 0:44:29What did you think of...

0:44:29 > 0:44:32APPLAUSE

0:44:32 > 0:44:34What if people were persuaded by that?

0:44:34 > 0:44:42What did you think of that if you think it wasn't truthful?

0:44:42 > 0:44:49Well, look at the BS that's told by all politicians,

0:44:49 > 0:44:54and all political parties, every general election.

0:44:54 > 0:44:57What do you say to the person in the front here, who did say young

0:44:57 > 0:44:59people are going to inherit this?

0:44:59 > 0:45:00What do you say to her?

0:45:00 > 0:45:03Well, I'm working, I'm a taxpayer, I could turn round and say -

0:45:03 > 0:45:06well, I'm older than you, I'm wiser than you, life

0:45:06 > 0:45:08experience, so my vote counts more in that aspect.

0:45:08 > 0:45:10My vote is more valuable in that aspect.

0:45:10 > 0:45:11Which is not fair.

0:45:11 > 0:45:12It's a comeback.

0:45:12 > 0:45:13What do you say to him?

0:45:13 > 0:45:19What says you've got more life experience,

0:45:19 > 0:45:20just because you're older, it doesn't mean you've

0:45:20 > 0:45:21done that much.

0:45:21 > 0:45:23I didn't say I did.

0:45:23 > 0:45:24APPLAUSE

0:45:24 > 0:45:25I didn't say it.

0:45:25 > 0:45:28I'm not here to fight with you, I'm here to watch them.

0:45:28 > 0:45:30What right do you have to say to older voters

0:45:30 > 0:45:31their vote doesn't matter?

0:45:31 > 0:45:33Those who voted to leave, that your vote doesn't matter

0:45:33 > 0:45:36because you're going to be dead in less time than us.

0:45:36 > 0:45:38My point wasn't that your vote doesn't matter.

0:45:38 > 0:45:41My point was, we didn't vote for a hard or soft

0:45:41 > 0:45:43Brexit or not to leave, we didn't know what

0:45:43 > 0:45:46we were voting for.

0:45:46 > 0:45:48To leave -

0:45:48 > 0:45:49I did.

0:45:49 > 0:45:50There was no definition.

0:45:50 > 0:45:52Leave or remain.

0:45:52 > 0:45:54There was no definition on that ballot paper.

0:45:54 > 0:45:55OK.

0:45:55 > 0:45:58The person in the second row from the very back and then we'll

0:45:58 > 0:45:59take one more question.

0:45:59 > 0:46:04Yes, you.

0:46:04 > 0:46:06I'm a young person, I'm 17 years of age,

0:46:06 > 0:46:08and I was for Brexit.

0:46:08 > 0:46:10I think that the media portray us as one tin to remain

0:46:10 > 0:46:12in the European Union is wrong.

0:46:12 > 0:46:13I would have wanted Brexit.

0:46:13 > 0:46:16I think if 16 and 17-year-olds were given the vote statistically

0:46:16 > 0:46:19them having 100% turnout and 100% voter remain would only have just

0:46:19 > 0:46:21clutched a remain win any way, so I don't think

0:46:21 > 0:46:22it was worth it.

0:46:22 > 0:46:25OK.

0:46:25 > 0:46:34So I'd say the very word "Brexit" itself is rather

0:46:34 > 0:46:37an empty signifier.

0:46:37 > 0:46:40In regards to the campaign, I think the reason there was no promise

0:46:40 > 0:46:43to stay in the single market or leave is because the moment

0:46:43 > 0:46:45you make that promise you isolate voters.

0:46:45 > 0:46:48If you leave it as open as possible possible, then that campaign

0:46:48 > 0:46:49is rather more appealing.

0:46:49 > 0:46:51It's not that people don't understand, it's just that the word

0:46:51 > 0:46:53itself is kind of all encompassing, I suppose.

0:46:53 > 0:46:54OK.

0:46:54 > 0:46:56I think we've got time for one more question.

0:46:56 > 0:46:58Let's take this one from Laura Mawson, please.

0:46:58 > 0:47:01Should people leave university with ?50,000 worth of debt?

0:47:01 > 0:47:04The issue that came up indeed at the election when Labour promised

0:47:04 > 0:47:05to make university free again.

0:47:05 > 0:47:06Susie Boniface.

0:47:06 > 0:47:08No.

0:47:08 > 0:47:10Laura, they shouldn't have to.

0:47:10 > 0:47:12The thing about tuition fees, it's the worse possible

0:47:12 > 0:47:16deal for the taxpayer.

0:47:16 > 0:47:23We used to pay the university tuition upfront, we now pay

0:47:23 > 0:47:26in arrears, with 3% interest on top, plus the retail price index,

0:47:26 > 0:47:28which is the most expensive way of judging inflation.

0:47:28 > 0:47:32Most graduates, who are only going to start paying for this over

0:47:32 > 0:47:34over 30 years or so, after they earn over ?21,000,

0:47:34 > 0:47:36many of them will be defaulting long-term on that.

0:47:36 > 0:47:39There will be debt collectors that we the taxpayer have

0:47:39 > 0:47:40to pay to hound them.

0:47:40 > 0:47:43What will end up happening is the total final bill will be

0:47:43 > 0:47:47for by the taxpayer, it will also be paid for by those

0:47:47 > 0:47:54graduates who were too poor to start paying back their student loans,

0:47:54 > 0:47:56?10,000, so they are paying general income tax

0:47:56 > 0:47:57and we all start paying back.

0:47:57 > 0:47:59It costs far, far more in the long run.

0:47:59 > 0:48:02As someone who lectures at different universities around the country,

0:48:02 > 0:48:05I've got to say as well I think it creates an idea that education

0:48:05 > 0:48:09is something you can purchase and that it gets delivered

0:48:09 > 0:48:13to your brain, like an Amazon parcel, and it's just there.

0:48:13 > 0:48:15Education is like gym membership, you can pay for it,

0:48:15 > 0:48:18but unless you apply yourself you're not going to turn into an athlete.

0:48:18 > 0:48:21I think the tuition fees debacle has both affected the quality

0:48:21 > 0:48:25sometimes of what people perceive their education to be,

0:48:25 > 0:48:28but it hasn't affected the actual quality they're receiving.

0:48:28 > 0:48:32It's certainly lent to a worse deal for the taxpayer.

0:48:32 > 0:48:35We're all paying more as a result of the tuition fees thing.

0:48:35 > 0:48:44It's not just students who are leaving without debt,

0:48:44 > 0:48:49it's the general taxpayer that is having to cough up the bill.

0:48:49 > 0:48:53APPLAUSE

0:48:53 > 0:48:54I'd say, who would be 18 now?

0:48:54 > 0:48:57You're staring down the barrel of having a pension that's probably

0:48:57 > 0:48:58going to be worthless.

0:48:58 > 0:49:00It's very expensive to buy a house.

0:49:00 > 0:49:01It's probably out of your reach.

0:49:01 > 0:49:04On top of that, you're being asked to have a ?50,000 worth of debt

0:49:04 > 0:49:07before you've even started if you've gone to university.

0:49:07 > 0:49:09But I think there's a huge problem with this.

0:49:09 > 0:49:11Susie was saying education used to be free.

0:49:11 > 0:49:13In fact the reason why it was free was because very few

0:49:13 > 0:49:14people went to university.

0:49:14 > 0:49:17We are now in a situation where far more people do.

0:49:17 > 0:49:20The Labour Party are saying, well, we can give it all the way free.

0:49:20 > 0:49:22That would cost ?60 billion.

0:49:22 > 0:49:23?60 billion over the next Parliament.

0:49:23 > 0:49:27I think we should look at tuition fees and and see if there are ways

0:49:27 > 0:49:28in which we can ease it.

0:49:28 > 0:49:30It's definitely wrong that people are charged interest

0:49:30 > 0:49:32when they are studying and not earning.

0:49:32 > 0:49:35Actually, what political parties need to do is look wider than that

0:49:35 > 0:49:37and have a bigger offer to young people.

0:49:37 > 0:49:39The Conservative Party probably needs to have a much

0:49:39 > 0:49:43bigger offer on housing for young people.

0:49:43 > 0:49:44APPLAUSE

0:49:44 > 0:49:46Richard Bourgon.

0:49:46 > 0:49:50When I think about it we see how far backwards we've gone,

0:49:50 > 0:49:53someone growing up a young person in my constituency now,

0:49:53 > 0:49:55leaving university, has less chance of a debt-free life.

0:49:55 > 0:49:56Less chance of a well-paid job.

0:49:56 > 0:49:57Less chance of a mortgage.

0:49:57 > 0:50:01Less chance of a council house and less chance of a decent pension

0:50:01 > 0:50:03at the end of their working life than someone leaving

0:50:03 > 0:50:06school at the age of 15 in my constituency did 40 years ago.

0:50:06 > 0:50:16That's not right.

0:50:16 > 0:50:19So I'm proud that Labour went into the general election,

0:50:19 > 0:50:23that we just had, and got 13 million votes, 40% of the vote,

0:50:23 > 0:50:27on the basis of a policy of free university education, with a leader

0:50:27 > 0:50:29who has always supported and always voted for free education.

0:50:29 > 0:50:34We all benefit, we all benefit from education.

0:50:34 > 0:50:36When we go to hospital and someone treats us,

0:50:36 > 0:50:39who has been to university, we're all benefitting from that.

0:50:39 > 0:50:41When our children go to school and our children are educated,

0:50:41 > 0:50:43we're all benefitting from the education of the people

0:50:43 > 0:50:45who work in the school.

0:50:45 > 0:50:48It was alarming to see the report that said that young people

0:50:48 > 0:50:51from working-class backgrounds are coming out of university

0:50:51 > 0:50:55with more debt than their more affluent counterparts at university.

0:50:55 > 0:50:58That's wrong.

0:50:58 > 0:51:05We all know, don't we, we all know that there's

0:51:05 > 0:51:07working-class people bright enough to go to the university

0:51:07 > 0:51:17they want to, but have to make the economic choice to go

0:51:23 > 0:51:29to a different university and that's not

0:51:29 > 0:51:31a restriction of choice of a more affluent face.

0:51:31 > 0:51:33So I'm proud of Labour's policy.

0:51:33 > 0:51:35Why do the figures show more people from disadvantaged backgrounds

0:51:35 > 0:51:38going to leading universities now than ten, four, five years ago?

0:51:38 > 0:51:40Well, they're coming out with more debts on average, ?57,000.

0:51:40 > 0:51:42Why are they going if the debt is problem?

0:51:42 > 0:51:44Why are more of them going to university?

0:51:44 > 0:51:45Because people have aspiration.

0:51:45 > 0:51:46People want to get on.

0:51:46 > 0:51:48People want to contribute in the best way.

0:51:48 > 0:51:50People want to be educated.

0:51:50 > 0:51:52I don't believe, by the way, that education is just

0:51:52 > 0:51:53about being paid more.

0:51:53 > 0:51:55Once you start charging, especially this amount of money,

0:51:55 > 0:51:58we're encouraging people to think of university as a kind

0:51:58 > 0:52:02of investment that returns a personal - that yields

0:52:02 > 0:52:10a personal financial return at the end of.

0:52:10 > 0:52:12it.

0:52:12 > 0:52:14I also believe in education for education's sake.

0:52:14 > 0:52:15That's really important.

0:52:15 > 0:52:18OK, you, sir.

0:52:18 > 0:52:25APPLAUSE

0:52:25 > 0:52:28We all keep saying about Theresa May with her magic money tree

0:52:28 > 0:52:29which you accuse her of.

0:52:29 > 0:52:32I think Labour must have a magic money forest because all this

0:52:32 > 0:52:35stuff they're giving away is unbelievable.

0:52:35 > 0:52:36APPLAUSE

0:52:36 > 0:52:45Jacob.

0:52:45 > 0:52:47I think that gentleman's made the best comment of the night,

0:52:47 > 0:52:50it is hard to follow.

0:52:50 > 0:52:51APPLAUSE

0:52:51 > 0:52:53I think that the point you were making, David,

0:52:53 > 0:52:54is actually the key one.

0:52:54 > 0:52:56There's been a 72% increase in applications to university

0:52:56 > 0:52:58from people from the most disadvantaged backgrounds

0:52:58 > 0:53:01and the reason for that is that loans have allowed the number

0:53:01 > 0:53:04of places at university to increase because they are funded by the loans

0:53:04 > 0:53:05rather than directly by the Government.

0:53:05 > 0:53:07What matters is the term of the loan.

0:53:07 > 0:53:11So, yes, there is this large nominal debt, but it only begins to be

0:53:11 > 0:53:13paid back after people are earning over ?21,000.

0:53:13 > 0:53:14It's written off after 30 years.

0:53:14 > 0:53:17It does not count on people's credit score and it is collected

0:53:17 > 0:53:18through the tax system.

0:53:18 > 0:53:20So there'll be a 9% collection above ?21,000.

0:53:20 > 0:53:22Nobody will have to pay all of that back.

0:53:22 > 0:53:24There'll be no debt collectors knocking on your door

0:53:24 > 0:53:26if you can't pay it back.

0:53:26 > 0:53:28They won't knock-on my door, I didn't get a degree.

0:53:28 > 0:53:31I'm the only person here who didn't need to get a degree.

0:53:31 > 0:53:34After 30 years it's simply written off and it's taken through PAYE.

0:53:34 > 0:53:37That means that it ought to be no disincentive to people go

0:53:37 > 0:53:38and you've seen numbers rise.

0:53:38 > 0:53:45Let's just look briefly at what they do in Scotland

0:53:45 > 0:53:46because in Scotland it's free.

0:53:46 > 0:53:48Where have they paid for that from?

0:53:48 > 0:53:49They've paid for it from further education.

0:53:49 > 0:53:53So the people who are going to be the elite, who are going to earn

0:53:53 > 0:53:56over their careers ?200,000 more are being paid for by those

0:53:56 > 0:53:58who are going to further education who are going

0:53:58 > 0:53:59to have fewer opportunities.

0:53:59 > 0:54:02That seems to me to be outrageous and you have to decide - who pays.

0:54:02 > 0:54:05Is it going to be the people, under very favourable

0:54:05 > 0:54:07terms who will benefit, or is it, ladies and gentlemen,

0:54:07 > 0:54:10going to be people on the minimum wage who are just beginning

0:54:10 > 0:54:11to pay tax.

0:54:11 > 0:54:13That is a choice we have to face.

0:54:13 > 0:54:14All right.

0:54:14 > 0:54:16The woman in the second row.

0:54:16 > 0:54:20APPLAUSE

0:54:20 > 0:54:26Yes, you.

0:54:26 > 0:54:29I worked in education with 16 to 18-year-olds for over 30 years.

0:54:29 > 0:54:39I also have three young grandchildren who have all chosen

0:54:45 > 0:54:47to take apprenticeships, modern apprenticships

0:54:47 > 0:54:52and are all funding their own way.

0:54:52 > 0:54:54I don't feel they are in anyway disadvantaged by not having gone

0:54:54 > 0:54:56to university and racked up huge debts.

0:54:56 > 0:54:59I think that the modern apprenticeships which are on offer

0:54:59 > 0:55:01now are a huge opportunity for young people rather than

0:55:01 > 0:55:02racking up huge debts.

0:55:02 > 0:55:03All right.

0:55:03 > 0:55:05The woman in pink there in the third row.

0:55:05 > 0:55:06In the pink dress, yes.

0:55:06 > 0:55:08My son is paying off, he's over the threshold,

0:55:08 > 0:55:14he's started to pay his tuition fees back.

0:55:14 > 0:55:18But actually, having paid all year, the interest

0:55:18 > 0:55:20on it is punitive, he's ended up

0:55:20 > 0:55:23owing more than he's paid off, how can that be right?

0:55:23 > 0:55:26How much is he paying off, as a mter of interest, do you know?

0:55:26 > 0:55:29I don't know, in the hundreds, I can't remember, he's only just

0:55:29 > 0:55:31over the threshold to start to pay.

0:55:31 > 0:55:34It's meant to be ?90 a year if you earn over ?22,000.

0:55:34 > 0:55:36He ended up with owing more than he started with,

0:55:36 > 0:55:39how can that be right, trying to talk to the student

0:55:39 > 0:55:40loans is interesting.

0:55:40 > 0:55:42Putting 6% interest on a student loan is a complete disgrace.

0:55:42 > 0:55:43It's just disgusting.

0:55:43 > 0:55:46The woman in the third row here. You, yes.

0:55:46 > 0:55:48What I want to know is, if the Labour Party do

0:55:48 > 0:55:51get rid of this fee, what about the people that

0:55:51 > 0:55:52have already paid it?

0:55:52 > 0:55:54Will they get that paid back to them?

0:55:54 > 0:55:56Well, that's a question for another general election, I suppose.

0:55:56 > 0:55:57Caroline Lucas?

0:55:57 > 0:56:00I just thought it's very interesting how Jacob spent the first half

0:56:00 > 0:56:02of the programme saying that Government debt is really bad

0:56:02 > 0:56:06and we need to avoid it at costs and he's just spent the last ten

0:56:06 > 0:56:08minutes saying that student debt is absolutely

0:56:08 > 0:56:09fine and don't worry about it at all.

0:56:09 > 0:56:11APPLAUSE

0:56:11 > 0:56:14I think it doesn't give a good start to our young people

0:56:14 > 0:56:16when they start off their lives with up to ?57,000 of debt.

0:56:16 > 0:56:20If you look at some of the issues on university campuses right now,

0:56:20 > 0:56:22there's an epidemic of mental health problems, people being incredibly

0:56:22 > 0:56:28stressed about this thought that they're going to have

0:56:28 > 0:56:29to pay back so money.

0:56:29 > 0:56:30It is wrong.

0:56:30 > 0:56:32This interest rate of 6% is absolutely scandalous.

0:56:32 > 0:56:34In terms of what are the alternatives.

0:56:34 > 0:56:36Let me just tell you that universities in France, in Germany,

0:56:36 > 0:56:38in Austria and Belgium, Italy, Netherlands, Portugal

0:56:38 > 0:56:41and Spain all charge massively less, it's about ?2,000 a year.

0:56:41 > 0:56:43We're paying in England the highest student fees in the whole world.

0:56:43 > 0:56:54There are alternatives.

0:56:56 > 0:57:06Do you know what.

0:57:06 > 0:57:07The people who benefit from an educated workforce,

0:57:07 > 0:57:09as Richard said, is all of us.

0:57:09 > 0:57:12There's also businesses too who benefit from having an educated

0:57:12 > 0:57:13workforce to go and work for them.

0:57:13 > 0:57:16So why don't we have a business education tax, it's being called

0:57:16 > 0:57:19by the union UCU, a small tax on some of the richest companies.

0:57:19 > 0:57:20That will go into it.

0:57:20 > 0:57:23It would be something that would be shared that way.

0:57:23 > 0:57:25Incompetent stead of having this idea that a university education

0:57:25 > 0:57:27is some kind of private commodity, it isn't.

0:57:27 > 0:57:28It's a public good.

0:57:28 > 0:57:29We all benefit from it.

0:57:29 > 0:57:32Tax people hire by all means, when they actually get out

0:57:32 > 0:57:35of university, but don't put this burden on all of our young people

0:57:35 > 0:57:36right from the start.

0:57:36 > 0:57:37The man in the blue.

0:57:37 > 0:57:39Very brief. We have to close the programme.

0:57:39 > 0:57:42I think there are too many people going to university.

0:57:42 > 0:57:43The time was when we had apprenticeships,

0:57:43 > 0:57:45like the lady said down there.

0:57:45 > 0:57:47Higher education should be for the brightest people,

0:57:47 > 0:57:48whatever their background.

0:57:48 > 0:57:51The rest we used to have HNC, ONC, HND, a load of practical courses.

0:57:51 > 0:57:54Would you have it free for fewer people or still...

0:57:54 > 0:57:56A good solution would be, getting to university should

0:57:56 > 0:57:57be academically hard and financially easy.

0:57:57 > 0:57:58OK.

0:57:58 > 0:57:59APPLAUSE

0:57:59 > 0:58:00Thank you.

0:58:00 > 0:58:02On that note, our hour is up.

0:58:02 > 0:58:03That's all from Question Time.

0:58:03 > 0:58:05Until Thursday, 14th September, when Question Time will be

0:58:05 > 0:58:09in Stratford in East London and the week after that

0:58:09 > 0:58:17in Bridgwater in Somerset.

0:58:17 > 0:58:21If you'd like to come and take part in the programme in our audience, go

0:58:21 > 0:58:23to our website or call 0330 123 99 88.

0:58:23 > 0:58:25If you're listening on Question Time on 5 Live,

0:58:25 > 0:58:27Question Time Extra Time follows.

0:58:27 > 0:58:30Here, my thanks to our panel, to all our audience from from all

0:58:30 > 0:58:32the Question Time team at the end of this series, here

0:58:32 > 0:58:35in Burton-on-Trent, good night.

0:58:35 > 0:58:44APPLAUSE

0:59:03 > 0:59:06MUSIC PLAYS