0:00:04 > 0:00:08Tonight we're in Dunstable and welcome to Question Time.
0:00:15 > 0:00:17And with us here tonight, the Conservative Transport
0:00:17 > 0:00:21Secretary, the man who ran Theresa May's campaign to become
0:00:21 > 0:00:23Tory leader, Chris Grayling.
0:00:23 > 0:00:27The Labour MP, Lisa Nandy.
0:00:27 > 0:00:30The President of the Liberal Democrats, Sal Brinton,
0:00:30 > 0:00:36the Chief Executive of the high street shop Next, Simon Wolfson,
0:00:36 > 0:00:40and probably the only vicar to have had a number one single and was last
0:00:40 > 0:00:42seen doing the paso doble on Strictly Come
0:00:42 > 0:00:47Dancing, Richard Coles.
0:00:47 > 0:00:57APPLAUSE.
0:00:57 > 0:01:00If you want to engage in the debate that goes on,
0:01:00 > 0:01:03our hashtag is BBCQT.
0:01:03 > 0:01:10We are on Twitter and Facebook, or you can text 83981 and push
0:01:10 > 0:01:12the red button if you want to see what others are saying.
0:01:12 > 0:01:14And only civilised debate, please, not just raw insult,
0:01:14 > 0:01:17which seems to be the current mode.
0:01:17 > 0:01:21Our first question is from Susan Clark, please,
0:01:21 > 0:01:23let's have her question?
0:01:23 > 0:01:27In the light of the Harvey Weinstein scandal, is sexism just as prevalent
0:01:27 > 0:01:30as it was in the 60s and 70s?
0:01:30 > 0:01:34Is sexism just as prevalent today as it was in the 60s and 70s?
0:01:34 > 0:01:36Sal Brinton?
0:01:36 > 0:01:40Yes, I think it is and I'm not surprised by the revelations.
0:01:40 > 0:01:45I think many women from my generation in the 70s right the way
0:01:45 > 0:01:50through had to learn to put up with it because that is what we were
0:01:50 > 0:01:53told to do and we were ignored if we made complaints.
0:01:53 > 0:01:57The really positive thing to come out of the dreadful revelations
0:01:57 > 0:02:02about Harvey Weinstein has been the #MeToo, me too because now
0:02:02 > 0:02:08we all know that it's everywhere and it's not just the occasional
0:02:08 > 0:02:11woman's fault for being too attractive or somebody just
0:02:11 > 0:02:13trying to make a pass.
0:02:13 > 0:02:15Just explain MeToo?
0:02:15 > 0:02:18The #MeToo started earlier in the week where, I can't remember
0:02:18 > 0:02:22the name of the actor in America, said, if you have faced harassment
0:02:22 > 0:02:26of any sort or worse, just do #MeToo, I was surprised
0:02:26 > 0:02:31to discover my young daughter had done that
0:02:31 > 0:02:33hashtag herself on Twitter.
0:02:33 > 0:02:37I did not know but in common with many other young women,
0:02:37 > 0:02:40she has got on with her life.
0:02:40 > 0:02:43The question for us as a society is, is it acceptable?
0:02:43 > 0:02:46And the answer is no and I think finally,
0:02:46 > 0:02:49the wider community is understanding that we need to call things out
0:02:49 > 0:02:52like this when we see them and support women and men,
0:02:52 > 0:02:54because it affects men too, when it happens.
0:02:54 > 0:02:57APPLAUSE.
0:03:01 > 0:03:03Richard Coles?
0:03:03 > 0:03:08I thought MeToo was brilliant because it revealed something that
0:03:08 > 0:03:11perhaps we didn't fully know yet or not all of us fully know yet,
0:03:11 > 0:03:14but the sheer extent of that behaviour of men towards women
0:03:14 > 0:03:15which is shocking and deplorable.
0:03:15 > 0:03:18I think one of the things that depressed me most
0:03:18 > 0:03:20of all about it was just how persistent that behaviour's been
0:03:20 > 0:03:23in certain places, particularly places where individuals have
0:03:23 > 0:03:25extraordinary degrees of power, like a film producer,
0:03:25 > 0:03:29in the music industry too, Tom Jones spoke about it earlier
0:03:29 > 0:03:34didn't he, having had a similar experience when he was starting out.
0:03:34 > 0:03:37I think what I find depressing about it is just how slow some men
0:03:37 > 0:03:41have been to learn the lessons of feminism, decades of feminism
0:03:41 > 0:03:44now, how slow men are to respect women properly and also
0:03:44 > 0:03:48to respect themselves properly.
0:03:48 > 0:03:58One of the things that I find most striking about this is the extent
0:04:03 > 0:04:06to which those who perpetrate this kind of behaviour seem
0:04:06 > 0:04:08to have so little sense of themselves as full human beings,
0:04:08 > 0:04:11so little self-respect and I think that's something that men need to do
0:04:11 > 0:04:15is to try to understand better why we behave in that sort of way,
0:04:15 > 0:04:18we in the most general sense, and to talk a little bit
0:04:18 > 0:04:19about what male identity means.
0:04:19 > 0:04:21That's got rather left behind I think.
0:04:21 > 0:04:26So much of the running has been made about questions
0:04:26 > 0:04:28around womens' identity, so we have got a lot
0:04:28 > 0:04:30of catching up to do I think.
0:04:30 > 0:04:32What about in your trade, Simon Wolfson?
0:04:32 > 0:04:34We talked about show business and theatre and all that,
0:04:34 > 0:04:36what about in industry and on the shop floor?
0:04:36 > 0:04:39I think what you will find is, the more women there
0:04:39 > 0:04:41are in an industry, the less sexism there is.
0:04:41 > 0:04:44I'm in an industry that has huge numbers of female employees
0:04:44 > 0:04:47and I have never come across anything in the work place,
0:04:47 > 0:04:51I've never come across an HR case coming anywhere close
0:04:51 > 0:05:01to what Harvey Weinstein's done.
0:05:02 > 0:05:06So I think while it is incredibly important, is that we are very
0:05:06 > 0:05:09careful about how we behave in the work place and that people
0:05:09 > 0:05:10understand how you can abuse power.
0:05:10 > 0:05:12One good example of that I think is swearing.
0:05:12 > 0:05:15I think particularly using sexual swear words in the work place
0:05:15 > 0:05:17is threatening for some people, particularly women, and it's that
0:05:17 > 0:05:20sort of behaviour I think that we need to make sure doesn't
0:05:20 > 0:05:23creep into our businesses and make sure that we are respectful.
0:05:23 > 0:05:25I would like to hear from any members of the audience.
0:05:25 > 0:05:26You, there?
0:05:26 > 0:05:28As a transgender person, I also say MeToo.
0:05:28 > 0:05:31Within a hundred feet of where we are sitting now,
0:05:31 > 0:05:33I was physically attacked by a bunch of males.
0:05:33 > 0:05:38I've been in a hate crime conference with Bedfordshire Police today
0:05:38 > 0:05:41as a guest speaker because of that.
0:05:41 > 0:05:44I'll turn that negative into a positive.
0:05:44 > 0:05:54Picking up what you were saying about the work place,
0:05:58 > 0:06:00on the other hand, I work for Monarch Aircraft Engineering,
0:06:00 > 0:06:03part of the former Monarch group, and we'll get to that
0:06:03 > 0:06:05in a minute, Chris, I'm sure...
0:06:05 > 0:06:08No, no, get to the point.
0:06:08 > 0:06:10In my work place, I'm well respected all over the world.
0:06:10 > 0:06:13I teach people from all over the world and I'm well respected.
0:06:13 > 0:06:17I think I'm with MeToo and I think many people should go with it also.
0:06:17 > 0:06:19The question is, is sexism as prevalent
0:06:19 > 0:06:21as it was in the 60s or 70s.
0:06:21 > 0:06:26You probably weren't around?
0:06:26 > 0:06:29I wasn't but I do still think it's still as sexist today.
0:06:29 > 0:06:32Even on the way from the car park from here tonight,
0:06:32 > 0:06:35we had a man shout out of his car window saying things to us,
0:06:35 > 0:06:37and that's literally because my sister was wearing a skirt.
0:06:37 > 0:06:41It doesn't go away but I do think that now people in the industries,
0:06:41 > 0:06:44like famous people, are speaking out saying these things are happening
0:06:44 > 0:06:48to them and people with getting their come-uppance likes
0:06:48 > 0:06:51Harvey Weinstein, hopefully it will seep down into general society
0:06:51 > 0:06:54and people will learn that it's actually not OK.
0:06:54 > 0:06:57I agree with Reverend Richard Coles saying, how can that man who said
0:06:57 > 0:07:00that to me and my sister look at us like a human being,
0:07:00 > 0:07:03like what is he thinking saying that to a young woman.
0:07:03 > 0:07:05We feel scared walking through a park at night,
0:07:05 > 0:07:08there's three men sitting on a bench, you don't know
0:07:08 > 0:07:11if they are going to say something to you, it's actually very scary.
0:07:11 > 0:07:12It's not OK.
0:07:12 > 0:07:13Lisa Nandy?
0:07:13 > 0:07:15APPLAUSE.
0:07:17 > 0:07:22I'm sort of a bit tempted to say what she said actually
0:07:22 > 0:07:27and just leave it at that but because I wasn't around
0:07:27 > 0:07:30in the 60s or 70s either but I don't know a single woman who hasn't been
0:07:30 > 0:07:33sexually harassed at some point in their lifetime or worse,
0:07:33 > 0:07:34sexually assaulted.
0:07:34 > 0:07:36So I don't know how bad it was before but it's
0:07:36 > 0:07:38certainly very, very bad now.
0:07:38 > 0:07:42I agree with Sal and with other people on the panel who said that
0:07:42 > 0:07:47they've been very inspired by the solidarity shown by women
0:07:47 > 0:07:50coming out with the hashtag Me Too and talking about their experiences,
0:07:50 > 0:07:52but the truth is, that it's 2017 and we shouldn't
0:07:52 > 0:07:55be talking about this, we should be acting on it.
0:07:55 > 0:07:58And actually, wherever I go in my day job, in politics,
0:07:58 > 0:08:03or in my life generally, what I see in these closed rooms
0:08:03 > 0:08:07is men in positions of power and women who don't hold that power
0:08:07 > 0:08:10and, until we start to think seriously about how we change that,
0:08:10 > 0:08:12more diversity in these organisations, much more
0:08:12 > 0:08:16transparency so you don't get these examples like the FA this week,
0:08:16 > 0:08:19of institutions investigating themselves behind closed doors
0:08:19 > 0:08:21and then publishing the outcome.
0:08:21 > 0:08:26Unless we start to take that seriously and act,
0:08:26 > 0:08:30instead of just talking about it, I fear that when my son grows up,
0:08:30 > 0:08:32we'll still be having this conversation then.
0:08:32 > 0:08:35APPLAUSE.
0:08:35 > 0:08:45Yes.
0:08:45 > 0:08:47But the interesting thing is, has the Harvey Weinstein scandal
0:08:47 > 0:08:50actually brought out things and will it change the mood?
0:08:50 > 0:08:52I mean, the hashtag MeToo, are people already reconsidering
0:08:52 > 0:08:56their attitude, men to women?
0:08:56 > 0:09:01Actually, I think one of the most disturbing things about this is that
0:09:01 > 0:09:04when there was this outpouring of collective, it felt like therapy
0:09:04 > 0:09:07I think for a lot of women just being able to talk about these
0:09:07 > 0:09:10things openly, using that hashtag, there was a response
0:09:10 > 0:09:13from a significant minority of men, particularly on social media,
0:09:13 > 0:09:14that sought to blame the victim.
0:09:14 > 0:09:17The response to Emma Thompson for example was, why didn't
0:09:17 > 0:09:20you do anything about it, why didn't you speak out earlier.
0:09:20 > 0:09:23Until we stop blaming the victims, I think we are going to be
0:09:23 > 0:09:27in a very bad place indeed.
0:09:27 > 0:09:32The person over there in the checked shirt?
0:09:32 > 0:09:36I was around in the 60s and 70s and yes sexism was prevalent
0:09:36 > 0:09:39and it is just as prevalent, if not more so now, I believe.
0:09:39 > 0:09:42I was sexually harassed, I was groped.
0:09:42 > 0:09:47You know, what are we actually meaning here?
0:09:47 > 0:09:51We have now got what's come up with what we have heard in the media
0:09:51 > 0:09:54this week and the last couple of weeks with a powerful
0:09:54 > 0:09:57film producer, you know, Hollywood and everything else,
0:09:57 > 0:10:00it's all becoming so big and I'm so pleased it is, it needs to be.
0:10:00 > 0:10:04But we do have to be careful that it also does not become a witch-hunt
0:10:04 > 0:10:08and people do not just jump on bandwagons for the sake of it.
0:10:08 > 0:10:12We had no voice in the 60s and 70s to actually speak out,
0:10:12 > 0:10:18we were afraid then as well.
0:10:18 > 0:10:22What we have to also be careful of, you know, the hashtag,
0:10:22 > 0:10:25that is wonderful, but we also have to be very careful that it
0:10:25 > 0:10:29doesn't become much, much, much bigger and people become
0:10:29 > 0:10:31victims of that too.
0:10:31 > 0:10:33OK.
0:10:33 > 0:10:35APPLAUSE.
0:10:35 > 0:10:37The man in the spectacles there?
0:10:37 > 0:10:39The case of institutional sexism is a strange one.
0:10:39 > 0:10:42I think it's still prevalent now.
0:10:42 > 0:10:45The question, Simon is probably the best to answer this,
0:10:45 > 0:10:48a friend of mine a few years ago was approached by Abercrombie
0:10:48 > 0:10:49Fitch or Hollister the brand.
0:10:49 > 0:10:52They recruit women to work in their shops Purely based
0:10:52 > 0:10:53on their appearance.
0:10:53 > 0:10:56They just walked up to her in the street and said,
0:10:56 > 0:10:58do you do any modelling, do you want a job.
0:10:58 > 0:10:59Regardless of her credentials.
0:10:59 > 0:11:02How do you remove that as an embedded policy like that
0:11:02 > 0:11:03from a huge company?
0:11:03 > 0:11:06Chris I'll come to you, but do you want to briefly
0:11:06 > 0:11:07answer that, Simon?
0:11:07 > 0:11:08It certainly doesn't exist in my company otherwise
0:11:09 > 0:11:11I'm pleased to say.
0:11:11 > 0:11:14Yes.
0:11:14 > 0:11:17Chris Grayling?
0:11:17 > 0:11:19I think the thing that is different today is the horrendous things
0:11:19 > 0:11:22we have seen over the last few weeks, the revelations
0:11:22 > 0:11:24would not have happened I think 20% 30 years ago.
0:11:24 > 0:11:27Our society's a more open place, it's more willing to face up
0:11:27 > 0:11:29to these things, it's more willing to condemn.
0:11:29 > 0:11:31There is therefore the opportunity to change.
0:11:31 > 0:11:35If you go back to the 60s and 70s, and I was a child in the 60s
0:11:35 > 0:11:38and a teenager in the 70s, the reality is, as we have so often
0:11:38 > 0:11:40heard from the victims, they did not speak out
0:11:40 > 0:11:43because nobody would believe them and nobody would have
0:11:43 > 0:11:44done anything about it.
0:11:44 > 0:11:46It's different today and that has to be the positive.
0:11:46 > 0:11:56APPLAUSE.
0:12:00 > 0:12:02We'll go on.
0:12:02 > 0:12:05We have got a number of questions to Go get
0:12:05 > 0:12:07through before we take the next question, as always.
0:12:07 > 0:12:17I'm just going to say where we are going to be next week
0:12:19 > 0:12:22which is Portsmouth and the week after that in Kilmarnock.
0:12:22 > 0:12:25Details on the screen and we'll give them again at the end.
0:12:25 > 0:12:27A question from David McNess, please?
0:12:27 > 0:12:29How would the panel survive with no income and no
0:12:29 > 0:12:32savings and a six-week wait for state support?
0:12:32 > 0:12:35A reference to the introduction of the universal credit which has
0:12:35 > 0:12:38been very much in the news and been talked about in Parliament.
0:12:38 > 0:12:40Simon Wolfson, how would you survive with no income,
0:12:40 > 0:12:42no savings and a six-week wait for state support?
0:12:42 > 0:12:46I mean I can't imagine how difficult that would be and I think whilst
0:12:46 > 0:12:50universal credit in principle is a great idea, the idea you go
0:12:50 > 0:12:54to one place that you don't have to fill out millions of forms
0:12:54 > 0:12:55in millions of different places, simplifying the process
0:12:55 > 0:12:59is completely the right policy.
0:12:59 > 0:13:02But this idea that people have got to wait six weeks
0:13:02 > 0:13:04to get paid must be wrong.
0:13:04 > 0:13:07The reason it's wrong is because what does it cost
0:13:07 > 0:13:10the Government to pay people, rather than pay people in arrears,
0:13:10 > 0:13:12what would it cost the Government to pay them in advance?
0:13:12 > 0:13:15The answer is, they have to borrow a month back of money.
0:13:15 > 0:13:18The body that can borrow by far the cheapest in this
0:13:18 > 0:13:19country is the Government.
0:13:19 > 0:13:22It can borrow at less than a quarter of a percent.
0:13:22 > 0:13:24Those people who're in that position, they will have to go
0:13:24 > 0:13:27to the very, very most expensive lenders, they'll be borrowing
0:13:27 > 0:13:31at rates of 40-50%, so it's insane for the Government not to be
0:13:31 > 0:13:35the borrower, rather than the receiver of benefits.
0:13:37 > 0:13:40APPLAUSE.
0:13:40 > 0:13:45And he's a Conservative supporter and a Conservative funder,
0:13:45 > 0:13:50what do you say to him, let alone all the people
0:13:50 > 0:13:52who're having difficulty with universal credit?
0:13:52 > 0:13:54Let's explain what the universal credit is designed to do.
0:13:54 > 0:13:57He's explained that, he said you could borrow the money
0:13:57 > 0:13:58and get out of the problem?
0:13:58 > 0:14:00Let me explain what it's designed to do.
0:14:00 > 0:14:02It's designed to enable people to move into sometimes part-time
0:14:02 > 0:14:05work, moving on to full-time work, to have a change of circumstance
0:14:05 > 0:14:09where when they're in the system, they don't have to keep logging back
0:14:09 > 0:14:13in, logging back on, reclaiming, it's also designed to end
0:14:13 > 0:14:14the situation where somebody's working part-time,
0:14:14 > 0:14:1616 hours a week...
0:14:16 > 0:14:17Sorry, Chris, I'm going to interrupt you.
0:14:17 > 0:14:23Everybody knows this, it's been said over and over again.
0:14:23 > 0:14:26The question that David McNess asks is about the six-week wait before
0:14:26 > 0:14:27money comes through.
0:14:27 > 0:14:28OK but...
0:14:28 > 0:14:30Don't bother about why it's there, everybody's
0:14:30 > 0:14:32agreed, even Labour agrees on the idea.
0:14:32 > 0:14:34APPLAUSE.
0:14:37 > 0:14:39Just go to the six week point?
0:14:39 > 0:14:43The point I was trying to make is it's designed
0:14:43 > 0:14:48to replicate your experience in a job, receiving benefits back
0:14:48 > 0:14:51in a job so you actually have a steady flow as you move
0:14:51 > 0:14:55into benefits and move back into part-time work.
0:14:55 > 0:14:57Now, I don't want anyone to have no money for six weeks.
0:14:57 > 0:15:00And we have a system in place that money is available for advance
0:15:00 > 0:15:03payments for people who need it, immediately if necessary.
0:15:03 > 0:15:04That's the right thing to do.
0:15:04 > 0:15:06One in four wait longer than six weeks.
0:15:06 > 0:15:09It's a huge reform and has so far been applied to 8%
0:15:09 > 0:15:10of benefit claimants.
0:15:10 > 0:15:12We are rolling it out very gradually.
0:15:12 > 0:15:14We are learning lessons, to make sure things work.
0:15:14 > 0:15:16When things don't work as well as they should,
0:15:16 > 0:15:17we are making changes.
0:15:17 > 0:15:19That's the right thing to do.
0:15:19 > 0:15:26Let me get a microphone to you.
0:15:26 > 0:15:30I am saying to Mr Grayling, the Tory party, the majority of them
0:15:30 > 0:15:34yesterday, they abstained in the House on the vote to give
0:15:34 > 0:15:38a buffer period to look into what is going wrong with this,
0:15:38 > 0:15:42and they abstained.
0:15:42 > 0:15:44That has left the people that are suffering disgusted.
0:15:44 > 0:15:48Disgusted.
0:15:48 > 0:15:52So yesterday's vote was to pause the reform.
0:15:52 > 0:15:53But the reform is a positive.
0:15:53 > 0:15:55It's having a positive effect.
0:15:55 > 0:15:57More people are getting into work from universal credit
0:15:57 > 0:15:58than was the case from conventional benefits.
0:15:58 > 0:16:00No, no, no, no.
0:16:00 > 0:16:04We are making changes as it goes through.
0:16:04 > 0:16:05We've improved the situation with advance payments.
0:16:05 > 0:16:07So why do you abstain?
0:16:07 > 0:16:08Why do you abstain?
0:16:08 > 0:16:11Why do you not go to the House like the Speaker has asked
0:16:11 > 0:16:12you, and explain this?
0:16:12 > 0:16:13I will come back to you.
0:16:13 > 0:16:15Lisa Nandy, let's hear from Labour.
0:16:15 > 0:16:17It is just not true to say that the government is learning
0:16:17 > 0:16:19lessons from the roll-out of this plan.
0:16:19 > 0:16:21APPLAUSE
0:16:21 > 0:16:24And the reason I know that is because it was
0:16:24 > 0:16:27piloted first in Wigan, where I live, in 2013.
0:16:27 > 0:16:31And at the end of that pilot, 80% of people were in rent arrears,
0:16:31 > 0:16:34three times as much debt as people who hadn't been in this scheme
0:16:34 > 0:16:38who were also in arrears.
0:16:38 > 0:16:41So it is not true to say that the government is learning
0:16:41 > 0:16:45lessons, and it is not true to say that the government isn't aware
0:16:45 > 0:16:47of the scale of human misery that the chaotic roll-out of this
0:16:47 > 0:16:50programme has already caused.
0:16:50 > 0:16:53And yesterday they were given an opportunity to work with us,
0:16:53 > 0:16:56to pause this scheme and work with us to fix it, so that it
0:16:56 > 0:17:00could benefit people and not cause that real hardship.
0:17:00 > 0:17:05And not only did they refuse to do that, but they didn't even bother
0:17:05 > 0:17:08to turn up to defend their policy.
0:17:08 > 0:17:11If my constituents didn't turn up, they would be sanctioned and go
0:17:11 > 0:17:15without money and anything to eat for a significant amount of time.
0:17:15 > 0:17:19And yet that is precisely what the Tory party,
0:17:19 > 0:17:22who are permitting this policy, did yesterday.
0:17:22 > 0:17:26If there was ever a sign that this group of people is not fit to hold
0:17:26 > 0:17:29office in this country, this is it.
0:17:29 > 0:17:35APPLAUSE
0:17:35 > 0:17:39The man there, and Lisa, says you failed to turn up to vote.
0:17:39 > 0:17:43And even the Speaker of the House of Commons,
0:17:43 > 0:17:47rather extraordinarily, said that the government should show
0:17:47 > 0:17:50respect to Parliament and say what it intends to do.
0:17:50 > 0:17:51Why did you abstain?
0:17:51 > 0:17:53Why were you not there?
0:17:53 > 0:17:56The government was there, we had ministers speaking in the debate,
0:17:56 > 0:17:58we had backbenchers speaking in the debate.
0:17:58 > 0:18:01Simply choosing not to vote against a Labour opposition day
0:18:01 > 0:18:03motion, which is not a binding motion, does not mean
0:18:03 > 0:18:05we failed to turn up.
0:18:05 > 0:18:08Total disrespect for people.
0:18:08 > 0:18:11It was worse than that.
0:18:11 > 0:18:13There was a three-line whip for you to abstain.
0:18:13 > 0:18:15They so didn't want a vote that they told people
0:18:15 > 0:18:17they had to abstain.
0:18:17 > 0:18:20Three-line whip is a bit of an arcane term that we know,
0:18:20 > 0:18:23but I just find that is quite extraordinary and it just
0:18:23 > 0:18:26demonstrates that the government do not know what they are doing.
0:18:26 > 0:18:29They should have stopped the pilot that came in.
0:18:29 > 0:18:32The principles were right, Simon is right, the principles
0:18:32 > 0:18:36about simplifying the benefits procedure were spot-on.
0:18:36 > 0:18:39But as the pilots came in and it became clear there were problems.
0:18:39 > 0:18:42And then worse than that, in 2015 the new Conservative
0:18:42 > 0:18:45government then started to make cuts to universal credit that have made
0:18:45 > 0:18:50things much, much worse.
0:18:50 > 0:18:53Lisa Nandy, what do you make of what Simon Wolfson said,
0:18:53 > 0:18:56that the government should borrow the money and simply pay people
0:18:56 > 0:18:57to get over this six-week pause?
0:18:57 > 0:18:59Is that Labour policy too?
0:18:59 > 0:19:02I was saying they should pay it in advance, rather than in arrears.
0:19:02 > 0:19:03The government says that...
0:19:03 > 0:19:05They borrow to do that?
0:19:05 > 0:19:06Yes.
0:19:06 > 0:19:12The government says that you can get advance payments,
0:19:12 > 0:19:15but I was sitting in my constituency office in Wigan today
0:19:15 > 0:19:16discussing this with my staff.
0:19:16 > 0:19:19We have had so many of these cases over the last few years,
0:19:19 > 0:19:21and they do not tell you about the advance payments.
0:19:21 > 0:19:22So nobody knows.
0:19:22 > 0:19:24So people aren't getting what they need.
0:19:24 > 0:19:28They are being told that they have to wait six weeks for the money,
0:19:28 > 0:19:30although one in four are waiting longer because the government can't
0:19:30 > 0:19:31get its act together.
0:19:31 > 0:19:33But it's worse than that, too.
0:19:33 > 0:19:36What we found in the pilot in Wigan is that many people didn't have bank
0:19:36 > 0:19:39accounts so they needed time to get up to speed with that.
0:19:39 > 0:19:41Many other people weren't online and didn't have
0:19:41 > 0:19:44access to the internet, in part because the government has
0:19:44 > 0:19:47cut and cut and cut, so they don't have access to those
0:19:47 > 0:19:50very basic rights that they need in order to participate in the scheme.
0:19:50 > 0:19:53And the government says that people wait six weeks in order to get
0:19:53 > 0:19:56a first pay packet in work, but the truth is that for people
0:19:56 > 0:19:59who earn the least in this country, usually, a significant minority
0:19:59 > 0:20:05of those people are paid weekly, not six-weekly.
0:20:05 > 0:20:09So it is just simply not true.
0:20:09 > 0:20:11I will come to those of you with your hands
0:20:11 > 0:20:13up in just a moment.
0:20:13 > 0:20:14Richard Coles.
0:20:14 > 0:20:17What's it like to be skint and then to go six weeks
0:20:17 > 0:20:18without any benefit at all?
0:20:18 > 0:20:20Well, it's grim, and it's also catastrophic.
0:20:20 > 0:20:22I think it's grim.
0:20:22 > 0:20:25We see this in numbers where I live of people visiting the food bank.
0:20:25 > 0:20:28Not just people out of work, but some people actually in work
0:20:28 > 0:20:29visiting food banks.
0:20:29 > 0:20:30Discuss.
0:20:30 > 0:20:33But I think the catastrophic thing is, more and more people
0:20:33 > 0:20:34are getting into rent arrears.
0:20:34 > 0:20:37And what concerns me is that a six-week gap in income can create
0:20:37 > 0:20:40rent arrears to the extent that you face the reality of eviction.
0:20:40 > 0:20:43Nothing seems to me to fray the fabric of the community,
0:20:43 > 0:20:45or to undermine the cohesiveness of a community than
0:20:45 > 0:20:47insecure housing.
0:20:47 > 0:20:49And that's something which I think is a major, major problem.
0:20:49 > 0:20:51It's harder and harder to access social housing,
0:20:51 > 0:20:54because there aren't the resources going into it.
0:20:54 > 0:20:56But when you get into rent arrears, then you're
0:20:56 > 0:20:57really, really in trouble.
0:20:57 > 0:20:59You, sir, in the front.
0:20:59 > 0:21:01The government has had four years of trying to get
0:21:01 > 0:21:05this problem sorted.
0:21:05 > 0:21:08Why hasn't it come up with an answer?
0:21:08 > 0:21:12Four years of doing basically nothing.
0:21:12 > 0:21:15We've still got major problems.
0:21:15 > 0:21:18We've been introducing this very calmly, small, a bit at a time.
0:21:18 > 0:21:228% of people are now claiming the benefit.
0:21:22 > 0:21:26You shouldn't have a problem after four years, surely.
0:21:26 > 0:21:31So that we learn the lesson and make changes, which we've been doing
0:21:31 > 0:21:33with advance payments, for example, making sure people
0:21:33 > 0:21:35who really need money can get it on the day.
0:21:35 > 0:21:39That's what we've been doing to deal with what is a huge reform and try
0:21:39 > 0:21:42and make sure that people don't have to wait six weeks without money.
0:21:42 > 0:21:44You shouldn't have a problem, after four years of supposedly
0:21:44 > 0:21:48putting it correctly in position.
0:21:48 > 0:21:50Simon Wolfson, this talk about advance payments,
0:21:50 > 0:21:51does that answer your question?
0:21:51 > 0:21:53No, I think benefits should be paid in advance,
0:21:53 > 0:21:56rather than in arrears, as I say.
0:21:56 > 0:21:58But you say you are already doing that.
0:21:58 > 0:22:01Are you?
0:22:01 > 0:22:04If you pay a benefit all the time in advance when someone gets
0:22:04 > 0:22:06into work and they are paid in arrears, then
0:22:06 > 0:22:07they have a huge gap.
0:22:07 > 0:22:08You are looking nonplussed.
0:22:08 > 0:22:13If someone comes to work for you, Simon, you pay them
0:22:13 > 0:22:15at the end of the month.
0:22:15 > 0:22:18If we are paying them at the start of the previous month,
0:22:18 > 0:22:20they have two months before their pay packet.
0:22:20 > 0:22:21No.
0:22:21 > 0:22:22They do.
0:22:22 > 0:22:25No, the problem, and I'm sure the reason it is paid in arrears,
0:22:25 > 0:22:28and the problem is that actually they get paid at the beginning
0:22:28 > 0:22:31of the month, and then a week later they get a job.
0:22:31 > 0:22:32So actually, they end up being overpaid.
0:22:32 > 0:22:34That is the risk of paying in advance.
0:22:34 > 0:22:36But you pay people in arrears, don't you?
0:22:36 > 0:22:38You pay people in arrears, don't you?
0:22:38 > 0:22:39We do, absolutely.
0:22:39 > 0:22:42So if the state doesn't do that, it creates a problem with people
0:22:42 > 0:22:43moving back into work.
0:22:43 > 0:22:46That completely ignores the reality of what is happening to people.
0:22:46 > 0:22:49The question was how do you survive for six weeks without any money.
0:22:49 > 0:22:52The truth is that you beg and borrow from family and friends
0:22:52 > 0:22:54if you are lucky enough to have them.
0:22:54 > 0:22:57You are humiliated and you are hungry, and at the end of it
0:22:57 > 0:22:58you are tired and you are angry.
0:22:58 > 0:23:01And we shouldn't be doing that to people in this country.
0:23:01 > 0:23:06APPLAUSE
0:23:06 > 0:23:08The person in the pale jacket.
0:23:08 > 0:23:10The contempt that the Tories have for the poor is
0:23:10 > 0:23:12absolutely disgusting.
0:23:12 > 0:23:14People are struggling.
0:23:14 > 0:23:19APPLAUSE
0:23:19 > 0:23:21People are struggling as it is, with all the cuts,
0:23:21 > 0:23:24with the social care, with NHS, with working conditions,
0:23:24 > 0:23:25zero-hours contracts.
0:23:25 > 0:23:29And again, the fantasy world of the Tories.
0:23:29 > 0:23:32"It's OK, we're doing it calmly, we are doing it
0:23:32 > 0:23:35la-di-da, it's fine".
0:23:35 > 0:23:38Are you in favour of the universal benefit in principle?
0:23:38 > 0:23:39In principle, it works.
0:23:39 > 0:23:41It is actually better, more cost-effective,
0:23:41 > 0:23:44people know what they are getting and it is an introduction
0:23:44 > 0:23:47into work, etc.
0:23:47 > 0:23:49But for the Tory MPs to blatantly state that this
0:23:49 > 0:23:52is an incentive into work, and we are helping you,
0:23:52 > 0:23:56and then they can't even do what they are supposed to do
0:23:56 > 0:23:59in their job and vote.
0:23:59 > 0:24:02This is what is so disgusting and contempt for the poor.
0:24:02 > 0:24:04Can I...?
0:24:04 > 0:24:08You are a sole voice on this panel on this issue,
0:24:08 > 0:24:10so of course you can.
0:24:10 > 0:24:13When you talk about people on low income, this is why,
0:24:13 > 0:24:14in introducing the national living wage we will,
0:24:14 > 0:24:17across the course of this Parliament, have increased income
0:24:17 > 0:24:20for those at the lowest level of income by nearly 50%,
0:24:20 > 0:24:21because we want those people
0:24:21 > 0:24:23to earn a better living.
0:24:23 > 0:24:26It's not enough, on the base level that none of the Tory
0:24:26 > 0:24:29government seem to be on, the base level of how people
0:24:29 > 0:24:32are living, day-to-day, trying to feed their children,
0:24:32 > 0:24:35try to clothe them, trying to decide whether to get a school jumper
0:24:35 > 0:24:38or actually have a tooth taken out at the dentist.
0:24:38 > 0:24:41This is the reality of life.
0:24:41 > 0:24:44One more point from the man in front in the red shirt.
0:24:44 > 0:24:48The previous speaker has said universal credit has a very
0:24:48 > 0:24:53sinister element to it.
0:24:53 > 0:24:57The six weeks is not there just by chance.
0:24:57 > 0:25:02It's to force people to go to work, on low-paid work, insecure jobs.
0:25:02 > 0:25:07So that is the reason why Chris is saying that, "Oh,
0:25:07 > 0:25:10"we have a reduction on unemployment", because being
0:25:10 > 0:25:14faced with six weeks without money, without income to actually
0:25:14 > 0:25:18feed your family or pay for your rent, people will take any
0:25:18 > 0:25:21job that is offered to them.
0:25:21 > 0:25:28And unless they take it, they lose all their benefit.
0:25:28 > 0:25:30Sal Brinton, on that point, you said you were in favour
0:25:30 > 0:25:31of universal credit.
0:25:31 > 0:25:34You agree with him that the six weeks is designed to
0:25:34 > 0:25:35force people into a job?
0:25:35 > 0:25:37Or is that not how you see it?
0:25:37 > 0:25:38That's not how I see it.
0:25:38 > 0:25:40I think the principle about simplifying benefits
0:25:40 > 0:25:43is the right idea, because before, we had problems with,
0:25:43 > 0:25:46when you were going to the council to get your housing benefit sorted,
0:25:46 > 0:25:50or your rent paid, and you were also having to talk to the DWP.
0:25:50 > 0:25:51So those are fine.
0:25:51 > 0:25:53It's the technical way that these are working.
0:25:53 > 0:25:55And you are right, sir, I can remember the Conservatives
0:25:55 > 0:25:59talking about, "We need a benefit that will make work pay".
0:25:59 > 0:26:03This does not make work pay.
0:26:03 > 0:26:06It has become infinitely worse, and a lot of that is
0:26:06 > 0:26:07because of the timing issue.
0:26:07 > 0:26:121.5 million people who are with private landlords will not have
0:26:12 > 0:26:14housing associations or council landlords who can afford the time
0:26:14 > 0:26:18not to do something if people get into rent arrears.
0:26:18 > 0:26:21And it is important that we resolve those before there's
0:26:21 > 0:26:27any further pilots.
0:26:27 > 0:26:29All right.
0:26:29 > 0:26:29We must move on.
0:26:29 > 0:26:32We've got a number of other questions to come to.
0:26:32 > 0:26:37Can we take this question from Chris Evans, please?
0:26:37 > 0:26:42Is no deal within Europe really such a big issue?
0:26:42 > 0:26:44Is no deal within Europe really such a big issue?
0:26:44 > 0:26:50Lisa Nandy, no deal, where do you stand on it?
0:26:50 > 0:26:51It would be a catastrophe.
0:26:51 > 0:26:52It is a big issue.
0:26:52 > 0:26:54It's the biggest issue that this country currently faces.
0:26:54 > 0:26:58The reality is that if we end up coming out of the EU
0:26:58 > 0:27:02without a deal at all, then we will see flights
0:27:02 > 0:27:06grounded, despite what Chris was trying to say this week.
0:27:06 > 0:27:08No, no...
0:27:08 > 0:27:12We will see flights grounded, lorries backed up at ports,
0:27:12 > 0:27:15food prices rising, and we will face the very real prospect of a hard
0:27:15 > 0:27:18border with Northern Ireland.
0:27:18 > 0:27:21There is no question that no deal would be worse,
0:27:21 > 0:27:25the worst possible deal of all.
0:27:25 > 0:27:27And increasingly now I think the Cabinet is divided
0:27:27 > 0:27:29into two groups of people, the realists, who understand this,
0:27:29 > 0:27:36and the fantasists who believe that no deal is a realistic prospect.
0:27:36 > 0:27:41The truth is there is no serious, credible Cabinet minister
0:27:41 > 0:27:43who currently believes that no deal is an option.
0:27:43 > 0:27:48And this week we had the prospect of the Brexit Secretary standing
0:27:48 > 0:27:51at the dispatch box in the House of Commons saying,
0:27:51 > 0:27:53"No deal is a negotiating tactic".
0:27:53 > 0:27:55The trouble is, they can hear him over in Brussels.
0:27:55 > 0:27:58They know that we are bluffing.
0:27:58 > 0:28:00And it's time we stopped messing around, grandstanding and bluffing,
0:28:00 > 0:28:05and got serious about how we are going to get the best
0:28:05 > 0:28:12deal out of the EU, so that we can move this country
0:28:12 > 0:28:14and this economy forward.
0:28:14 > 0:28:17Chris Evans' question, Chris Grayling, is do you think no
0:28:17 > 0:28:21deal in Europe is ready such a bad thing?
0:28:21 > 0:28:24I am someone who believes in free trade, so I think a free-trade
0:28:24 > 0:28:27agreement with the European Union would be a good thing for us
0:28:27 > 0:28:28and for the European Union.
0:28:28 > 0:28:30Therefore, my colleagues and I will work very
0:28:30 > 0:28:31hard to achieve that.
0:28:31 > 0:28:34What we will not do is to adopt the Labour policy
0:28:34 > 0:28:36which is to say deal at any cost.
0:28:36 > 0:28:39What happens if they say give us 100 billion euros or no deal?
0:28:39 > 0:28:40That's not our policy.
0:28:40 > 0:28:41That's nonsense, Chris.
0:28:41 > 0:28:42That's absolute nonsense.
0:28:42 > 0:28:47And you know it's nonsense.
0:28:47 > 0:28:49So we are going to work hard to deliver a sensible deal.
0:28:49 > 0:28:52We're going to work hard to have a proper, neighbourly,
0:28:52 > 0:28:58friendly relationship with the European Union.
0:28:58 > 0:29:00But we're also going to prepare, so we are ready
0:29:00 > 0:29:02if that doesn't happen.
0:29:02 > 0:29:03So you would walk away in certain circumstances?
0:29:03 > 0:29:07Theresa May was very clear in saying no deal is better than a bad deal.
0:29:07 > 0:29:10We will work hard to prepare the way for a good deal
0:29:10 > 0:29:11with the European Union.
0:29:11 > 0:29:14But you would all expect us to also prepare for the eventuality
0:29:14 > 0:29:15that there is none.
0:29:15 > 0:29:16And we will do both.
0:29:16 > 0:29:17I don't expect that to happen.
0:29:17 > 0:29:20I don't want it to happen, but we will make sure we're
0:29:20 > 0:29:22ready for it if it does.
0:29:22 > 0:29:23APPLAUSE
0:29:23 > 0:29:27And we'll all be growing more vegetables.
0:29:27 > 0:29:30What we certainly won't have is planes sitting on the ground.
0:29:30 > 0:29:31The planes will carry on flying.
0:29:31 > 0:29:33The idea that Spain would stop the planes landing
0:29:33 > 0:29:34in the summer of 2019...
0:29:34 > 0:29:36You need an agreement to do it, Chris.
0:29:36 > 0:29:39And leave all their hotels empty, that is just for the birds.
0:29:39 > 0:29:42If it's for the birds, why did the Chancellor
0:29:42 > 0:29:50of the Exchequer reveal it as a possibility?
0:29:50 > 0:29:53He didn't but he actually said, I'm not going to spend lots of money
0:29:53 > 0:29:55on it because it's not going to happen.
0:29:55 > 0:29:57It is theoretically conceivable that in a no-deal scenario, there
0:29:57 > 0:29:59would be no air traffic moving.
0:29:59 > 0:30:01Why did the Home Secretary say it would be unthinkable,
0:30:01 > 0:30:10no deal would be unthinkable?
0:30:10 > 0:30:13Our goal is to secure a deal with the European Union
0:30:13 > 0:30:14that's good for all of us.
0:30:14 > 0:30:17That's our goal, we are not going to admit defeat,
0:30:17 > 0:30:19we are not going to say we are going to fail.
0:30:19 > 0:30:21She said it would be unthinkable...
0:30:21 > 0:30:22Wasting your energy.
0:30:22 > 0:30:24Work together so that we can get out of the EU!
0:30:24 > 0:30:26Why can't you work together?
0:30:26 > 0:30:28Why are you wasting so much time fighting with each other?
0:30:28 > 0:30:30OK, I'll come to you later on.
0:30:30 > 0:30:31Richard Coles?
0:30:31 > 0:30:33It's a very good question.
0:30:33 > 0:30:37I'm having flashbacks to the universal credit thing.
0:30:37 > 0:30:40We seem to have a problem with roll outs don't we, a real problem.
0:30:40 > 0:30:42It's quite a big roll out.
0:30:42 > 0:30:43Exactly.
0:30:43 > 0:30:50I think there's a big problem with universal credit,
0:30:50 > 0:30:54a big problem with e borders and IT products in the BBC and the NHS,
0:30:54 > 0:30:57a huge one with HMRC and changes to freelance status for employees,
0:30:57 > 0:30:59moving them to employed status.
0:30:59 > 0:31:02The biggest one of all of course is Brexit.
0:31:02 > 0:31:05My impression is sometimes that we are approaching a very
0:31:05 > 0:31:07uncertain cliff edge actually.
0:31:07 > 0:31:11If it is a cliff edge, I want to abseil down,
0:31:11 > 0:31:15I don't want to jump down the cliff, and I want to see a plan.
0:31:15 > 0:31:17You will still get to the bottom pretty fast.
0:31:17 > 0:31:19I want to get to the bottom without splatting.
0:31:19 > 0:31:20That would be preferred.
0:31:20 > 0:31:22That's what we are aiming to give you.
0:31:22 > 0:31:25I would like to see a little bit more detail about this.
0:31:25 > 0:31:27The question is, would no deal be a bad thing?
0:31:27 > 0:31:30Do you think no deal would be a disaster?
0:31:30 > 0:31:40I think I was Amber Rudd on that one and I'm not very often
0:31:42 > 0:31:47with Amber Rudd on anything but it seems inconceiveable to me.
0:31:47 > 0:31:48I want to Abseil.
0:31:48 > 0:31:49Sal Brinton?
0:31:49 > 0:31:53The problem with the WTO rules which is what Chris said was the way
0:31:53 > 0:31:56out if we have no deal, is that immediately we are legally
0:31:56 > 0:31:59required to slap tariffs on anything coming from the EU and vice versa.
0:31:59 > 0:32:00Sorry?
0:32:00 > 0:32:01Tariffs.
0:32:01 > 0:32:04Well, 40% for lamb and beef and the Welsh Farmers' Union.
0:32:04 > 0:32:05We are absolutely legally obliged.
0:32:05 > 0:32:07Cars 10%, clothes 12%, 20% for beers and spirits,
0:32:07 > 0:32:11and that's a problem.
0:32:11 > 0:32:15It's certainly a problem for both countries in the EU exporting to us
0:32:15 > 0:32:19but it's a major problem for us, particularly in places
0:32:19 > 0:32:26like Northern Ireland with the hard soft border and 90% of goods
0:32:26 > 0:32:28But the Brexiteer beside you disagrees with all this...
0:32:28 > 0:32:31It's not true that we have to have those.
0:32:31 > 0:32:34We have to have the same tariffs on everyone but that doesn't
0:32:34 > 0:32:36mean it has to be 40%.
0:32:36 > 0:32:39We may change and say actually we are going to have 0 tariffs
0:32:39 > 0:32:40on all foods from all countries.
0:32:40 > 0:32:44What we can't do is say Europe, if we don't have a special agreement
0:32:44 > 0:32:45we can't have special arrangements for Europe.
0:32:45 > 0:32:48But it's absolutely wrong to say we have for tariffs at any level.
0:32:48 > 0:32:50They can set their own tariffs.
0:32:50 > 0:32:53The problem is, we have to set the tariffs absolutely identically
0:32:53 > 0:32:55across the world which means we also have to undo the deals
0:32:55 > 0:32:58that the Government are doing, beginning to talk about
0:32:58 > 0:33:00with other countries.
0:33:00 > 0:33:02There's one deal for everything.
0:33:02 > 0:33:04You can't pick and choose once you do these rules.
0:33:04 > 0:33:07I'm sorry it's complicated but you will agree with that.
0:33:07 > 0:33:09But that doesn't mean we have to have high tariffs.
0:33:09 > 0:33:15A lot of people voted for Brexit because we can actually become more
0:33:15 > 0:33:18of a free-trading nation, we don't have to have these tariffs.
0:33:20 > 0:33:22A member of the audience?
0:33:22 > 0:33:26You, Sir, on the fourth row with black hair and a jacket on?
0:33:26 > 0:33:30I just don't really think many people in the Labour Party
0:33:30 > 0:33:34or the Liberal Democrats understand the basics of negotiation.
0:33:34 > 0:33:39If you go into the negotiation saying you are not prepared for no
0:33:39 > 0:33:41deal, you are just signing up for a bad deal.
0:33:41 > 0:33:42No you're not.
0:33:42 > 0:33:43No you're not.
0:33:43 > 0:33:45Lisa Nandy?
0:33:45 > 0:33:48No you're not because we know...
0:33:48 > 0:33:51If you shout out, we can't hear you properly because we
0:33:51 > 0:33:52haven't got microphones.
0:33:52 > 0:33:54People in here can hear you but millions of people
0:33:54 > 0:33:57listening to you can't hear, which would be a pity,
0:33:57 > 0:34:00I'm sure you would agree with that, so wait until we get
0:34:00 > 0:34:01a microphone to you.
0:34:01 > 0:34:03Lisa?
0:34:03 > 0:34:07It's not an open invitation for the EU to tell us what the deal
0:34:07 > 0:34:10is, it's the start of getting real about the fact that a no-deal
0:34:10 > 0:34:13would be catastrophic for the EU and it would be catastrophic
0:34:13 > 0:34:15for us as well.
0:34:15 > 0:34:18The reason why it's a completely ineffective negotiating tactic
0:34:18 > 0:34:20is because the Government has admitted that it's only that,
0:34:20 > 0:34:21it's a negotiating tactic.
0:34:21 > 0:34:23The Home Secretary's come out and said, it's
0:34:23 > 0:34:26unthinkable to have no deal.
0:34:26 > 0:34:28That is one bit of it though isn't it?
0:34:28 > 0:34:30The Prime Minister's rowed back on the rhetoric.
0:34:30 > 0:34:34She's a Remainer, she was always going to think think a no deal
0:34:34 > 0:34:40wasth was no option.
0:34:40 > 0:34:41a no deal was no option.
0:34:41 > 0:34:44The fact is the Home Secretary and the Prime Minister are quite
0:34:44 > 0:34:47clearly in my view waking up to the fact that no deal
0:34:47 > 0:34:49would be an absolute disaster for this country.
0:34:49 > 0:34:51The Brexit secretary's admitted that it is a negotiating tactic.
0:34:51 > 0:34:53This is not an effective way to negotiate.
0:34:53 > 0:34:54I don't agree.
0:34:54 > 0:34:55APPLAUSE.
0:34:55 > 0:35:00Simon, the question was, is no deal really such a bad thing?
0:35:00 > 0:35:02No deal is definitely worse than having a deal.
0:35:02 > 0:35:06As Chris said, a lot of us have voted for Brexit and free trade
0:35:06 > 0:35:09and if we don't have free trade with Europe, then that would be
0:35:09 > 0:35:10bad for the economy.
0:35:10 > 0:35:12To say that it would be a catastrophe is wrong.
0:35:12 > 0:35:14I think that's dangerous and it's an exaggeration.
0:35:14 > 0:35:16It's very important, in a negotiation, that
0:35:16 > 0:35:19people keep a level head.
0:35:19 > 0:35:21In my experience of negotiating, there are two golden rules.
0:35:21 > 0:35:24One is, you are going to have days where it just looks
0:35:24 > 0:35:25like the deal is impossible.
0:35:25 > 0:35:28You are going to go to bed and think now there is no way
0:35:28 > 0:35:30this is going to happen.
0:35:30 > 0:35:33Everyone sleeps on it, they think about it and they are testing each
0:35:33 > 0:35:35other's positions and you go back the next day and sure
0:35:35 > 0:35:37enough the deal recedes.
0:35:37 > 0:35:40I think we have got to be very careful not to have national
0:35:40 > 0:35:43meltdown every time we hit an impasse because it's going
0:35:43 > 0:35:45to happen, people will sleep on it.
0:35:45 > 0:35:46We are not making progress...
0:35:46 > 0:35:48Are you confident in the way negotiations have been
0:35:48 > 0:35:51handled by the Government?
0:35:51 > 0:35:56I think it's very difficult to judge from outside and I think actually
0:35:56 > 0:35:58trying to negotiate in public, that makes it harder for both
0:35:58 > 0:36:02sides to compromise.
0:36:02 > 0:36:05So I think we have got to be careful about making judgments
0:36:05 > 0:36:06about conversations that are happening that
0:36:06 > 0:36:07we are not party to.
0:36:07 > 0:36:09What about the things that are said publicly?
0:36:09 > 0:36:13You are a Conservative.
0:36:13 > 0:36:16When you look at the way that the Cabinet says different
0:36:16 > 0:36:19things, Lisa was referring to, does that disconcert you?
0:36:19 > 0:36:20No.
0:36:20 > 0:36:21Is that reasonable?
0:36:21 > 0:36:23Actually, you know what, having a debate between optimistic
0:36:23 > 0:36:26and enthusiastic Boris Johnson and a cautious and Conservative
0:36:26 > 0:36:29Philip Hammond, having that debate in public is not a bad thing
0:36:29 > 0:36:31and finding the middle ground between them is actually a very
0:36:31 > 0:36:33sensible way to proceed.
0:36:33 > 0:36:37The idea that we all have to, as a nation, have one idea and not
0:36:37 > 0:36:40have any differences means that we won't get the best deal,
0:36:40 > 0:36:44we have got to talk about these things.
0:36:44 > 0:36:47If we don't have a credible plan to walk away with, then we are not
0:36:47 > 0:36:51going into a negotiation, we are going into ask
0:36:51 > 0:36:53the price and we can only bluff, plead and beg.
0:36:53 > 0:36:55We have to have a plan.
0:36:55 > 0:36:56We don't have one.
0:36:56 > 0:36:58For a no-deal scenario because if we don't,
0:36:58 > 0:37:00we are not going to get the best deal.
0:37:00 > 0:37:03APPLAUSE.
0:37:03 > 0:37:05The person at the very back there?
0:37:05 > 0:37:07Yes?
0:37:07 > 0:37:08You, at the back in blue?
0:37:08 > 0:37:12Mr Grayling, if you genuinely have a Plan B for how things
0:37:12 > 0:37:19would work under WTO rules, why don't you publish it and show
0:37:19 > 0:37:21the EU that you are serious and convince us that
0:37:21 > 0:37:24you have the detail?
0:37:24 > 0:37:27Well, the answer to that is that we are actively
0:37:27 > 0:37:28working on that plan.
0:37:28 > 0:37:32I'm doing so in my own area.
0:37:32 > 0:37:35We'll bring forward details when we need to, but we are not
0:37:35 > 0:37:37approaching this on the basis that we are going
0:37:37 > 0:37:39to need to do that.
0:37:39 > 0:37:44Right now, we are working to try and secure the best deal for Britain.
0:37:44 > 0:37:47Yes, of course we are making contingency plans and we'll be very
0:37:47 > 0:37:49clear, I'm looking at the whole issue of transportation on ports
0:37:49 > 0:37:52to make sure we are ready for that.
0:37:52 > 0:37:56I'm an optimist, I expect us to do a deal, I expect this to be
0:37:56 > 0:37:57something that works for both sides.
0:37:57 > 0:37:59We are the European Union's biggest export market,
0:37:59 > 0:38:02it would be hugely damaging to businesses in France,
0:38:02 > 0:38:05Germany Belgium and the Netherlands if there wasn't a free trade deal
0:38:05 > 0:38:08and that's why I'm absolutely certain there would be.
0:38:08 > 0:38:12You would expect us to do the work we are doing now and we'll be
0:38:12 > 0:38:15talking about it in due course, to make sure there is
0:38:15 > 0:38:17an alternative route in the unlikely event we'll have
0:38:17 > 0:38:18to take it.
0:38:18 > 0:38:19APPLAUSE.
0:38:19 > 0:38:24The woman there?
0:38:24 > 0:38:28From what I'm seeing, outside look in, it looks
0:38:28 > 0:38:31like the Tories can't even manage their own party,
0:38:31 > 0:38:34so how can we possibly trust you to take us into Brexit
0:38:34 > 0:38:35with a good deal?
0:38:35 > 0:38:36APPLAUSE.
0:38:36 > 0:38:37Well, you...
0:38:37 > 0:38:41So I think Simon's point is right, we are not a group of clones sitting
0:38:41 > 0:38:43around the Cabinet table, we have Discussions, debates,
0:38:43 > 0:38:45differences of opinion, we reach a common position,
0:38:45 > 0:38:50Theresa May's speech in Florence a couple of weeks ago
0:38:50 > 0:38:53was very much a result, a United Cabinet discussion,
0:38:53 > 0:38:56she spoke for all of us and she's set out the path we are taking.
0:38:56 > 0:38:59Chris, how much time have we got?
0:38:59 > 0:39:02One thing that concerns me, we are talking about very detailed
0:39:02 > 0:39:04work and we don't have much time to do it.
0:39:04 > 0:39:07I was talking to an official the to other day who's been seconded
0:39:07 > 0:39:10to the Department for Brexit and she was saying the issue
0:39:10 > 0:39:13they are finding is they have ten years' work to do in less
0:39:13 > 0:39:14than two years.
0:39:14 > 0:39:17And that the kind of things you are talking about sound
0:39:17 > 0:39:20like luxuries if you are working to a time scale that's
0:39:20 > 0:39:22that ungenerous.
0:39:22 > 0:39:25All I can say, within the Department of Transport, we are not trying
0:39:25 > 0:39:28to do ten years' work in two years, what we are working to do
0:39:28 > 0:39:29is perfectly achievable, I hope...
0:39:29 > 0:39:31The man in the brown jacket?
0:39:31 > 0:39:34Yes, the speaker on the front row just said she can't trust
0:39:34 > 0:39:36the Conservative Party.
0:39:36 > 0:39:39I can't trust Lisa and the Labour and Baroness Brinton
0:39:39 > 0:39:42in the Liberal Democrats because all they want to do
0:39:42 > 0:39:44is connive a situation to create a second referendum.
0:39:44 > 0:39:45What you've got to do is...
0:39:45 > 0:39:47APPLAUSE.
0:39:47 > 0:39:53What you've got to do is what the people have already said.
0:39:53 > 0:39:561.4 million people want the leave the EU, that's what we have got
0:39:56 > 0:39:57to get on with and do.
0:39:57 > 0:40:00Do you think it's straight forward or do you think it's a difficult
0:40:00 > 0:40:01task the Government faces?
0:40:01 > 0:40:02Of course it's difficult.
0:40:02 > 0:40:05It's a very complicated issue but you can only
0:40:05 > 0:40:06negotiate with people if they want to negotiate.
0:40:06 > 0:40:09How long do we have to give the EU?
0:40:09 > 0:40:13How long do we have to give Mr Juncker to start saying
0:40:13 > 0:40:16things that are reasonable?
0:40:16 > 0:40:20All I can see is unreasonable comments from the EU,er in not
0:40:20 > 0:40:23taking us seriously, if I was the PM, I would give
0:40:23 > 0:40:26them a weeks' notice and I would leave the following day.
0:40:26 > 0:40:28One more point then we must go on.
0:40:28 > 0:40:29The woman in pink?
0:40:29 > 0:40:30You?
0:40:30 > 0:40:31Ever since the no-deal...
0:40:31 > 0:40:34Sorry, we are getting very confused in this studio,
0:40:34 > 0:40:35it's too difficult to see people.
0:40:35 > 0:40:36Hold on.
0:40:36 > 0:40:37The woman up there?
0:40:37 > 0:40:47We've had our vote, we've had the referendum,
0:40:55 > 0:40:57I don't believe we should have a second referendum,
0:40:57 > 0:40:59I think the Labour and the Liberal
0:40:59 > 0:41:01Party are pushing and some, dare I say Conservatives,
0:41:01 > 0:41:07are pushing for a second referendum.
0:41:07 > 0:41:09Let's get on with it, let's get behind it, it's a very,
0:41:09 > 0:41:11very difficult thing, probably one of the most
0:41:11 > 0:41:13difficult things we've asked a Government to do,
0:41:13 > 0:41:15but it could be very exciting.
0:41:15 > 0:41:18I believe it could be very exciting for this country and I'm appealing
0:41:18 > 0:41:19to the Labour and the Liberal Democrats.
0:41:19 > 0:41:22I'm actually a Liberal Democrat at heart and I'm appealing
0:41:22 > 0:41:25to you to get behind the Government to work together, to work together
0:41:25 > 0:41:27for the good of this country, not to keep bickering.
0:41:27 > 0:41:30All right, we have heard your point, madam - stop bickering.
0:41:30 > 0:41:31Lisa, just answer that?
0:41:31 > 0:41:34I just want to say to you, that if we were trying
0:41:34 > 0:41:36to have a second referendum or somehow stop from leaving
0:41:36 > 0:41:39the European Union, then we wouldn't have voted to trigger Article 50.
0:41:39 > 0:41:42I voted to trigger Article 50 despite the fact that I went out
0:41:42 > 0:41:43and campaigned for Remain.
0:41:43 > 0:41:46We lost the referendum and now, our job, in my view,
0:41:46 > 0:41:48is to get the best deal for this country.
0:41:48 > 0:41:52But I will not apologise for saying to people like Chris that still now,
0:41:52 > 0:41:54after six months after triggering Article 50 with a clock ticking,
0:41:54 > 0:41:58we should not be messing around saying we have got this great
0:41:58 > 0:42:00negotiating position, no deal, it's not going to happen,
0:42:00 > 0:42:02but don't worry because Brussels hasn't worked it out,
0:42:02 > 0:42:04it's just not good enough, we need to get serious.
0:42:04 > 0:42:06Hands up.
0:42:06 > 0:42:12I can't bring you all in, I'm really sorry, we have this
0:42:12 > 0:42:15debate week after week after week where we go around the country
0:42:15 > 0:42:17and hear what people think with different views
0:42:17 > 0:42:21as the negotiations go on and we'll no doubt come back to it.
0:42:21 > 0:42:24But, I want to keep a variety of questions in Question Time.
0:42:24 > 0:42:26We have got a question from Linda Forbes that
0:42:26 > 0:42:27I would like to take, please?
0:42:27 > 0:42:34As an obese taxpayer, should I be less deserving of NHS
0:42:34 > 0:42:39treatment than people who take other risks with their health?
0:42:40 > 0:42:43A very, very interesting question.
0:42:43 > 0:42:50This is in the light of an NHS statement,
0:42:50 > 0:42:53an authority just near here, that not only if you
0:42:53 > 0:42:57were technically obese but if you were a smoker,
0:42:57 > 0:42:59you could be breathalysed to see if you'd stopped smoking before
0:42:59 > 0:43:01you got medical treatment.
0:43:01 > 0:43:06Richard Coles, what do you make of that?
0:43:06 > 0:43:09When I had a medical for Strictly, I discovered I was 0.4 short
0:43:09 > 0:43:13of obese myself which came as rather a shock.
0:43:13 > 0:43:16I'm happy to say my paso doble saw me lose a stone,
0:43:16 > 0:43:18probably through fear more than anything else.
0:43:18 > 0:43:19APPLAUSE.
0:43:19 > 0:43:22I don't think the NHS should be rolling that one out.
0:43:22 > 0:43:27I'm horrified at the thought that people who are classified as obese
0:43:27 > 0:43:31might have to be further back in the queue for NHS provision.
0:43:31 > 0:43:33I understand of course that provision's always got to be,
0:43:33 > 0:43:36you know, they are not limitless.
0:43:36 > 0:43:38But I do think it's fundamentally important, it's a fundamental
0:43:38 > 0:43:42principle of the NHS and a fundamental principle
0:43:42 > 0:43:45of living in a civilised society that we all have an amiable state
0:43:45 > 0:43:49as it comes simply from being human beings and that there is no priority
0:43:49 > 0:43:56so I would hate to see health care meeted out in that kind of way.
0:43:56 > 0:43:59so I would hate to see health care meted out in that kind of way.
0:43:59 > 0:44:02Linda Forbes, have you had direct experience of being warned
0:44:02 > 0:44:04about this in terms of operations or any medical treatment?
0:44:04 > 0:44:07No, but I have lost over six stone in the last year...
0:44:07 > 0:44:08APPLAUSE.
0:44:08 > 0:44:10Question Time is not a slimmers club.
0:44:10 > 0:44:15But we want to know the secret!
0:44:15 > 0:44:18I've worked with other people through NHS health unlocked
0:44:18 > 0:44:21and realised just how difficult it is to lose weight
0:44:21 > 0:44:25and actually for some people who're very overweight,
0:44:25 > 0:44:29getting access to operations that will enable them to exercise again
0:44:29 > 0:44:33is being restricted which actually ties them into even more ill health.
0:44:33 > 0:44:38OK, Sal Brinton?
0:44:38 > 0:44:39Well, I think that's the absolute conundrum.
0:44:39 > 0:44:43If help was offered at the start, and there was a sort of a line
0:44:43 > 0:44:46and you could see very clearly, but I know from other people
0:44:46 > 0:44:50who have been told either they've got to stop smoking or they've got
0:44:50 > 0:44:53to lose weight before they can even go on to the waiting list,
0:44:53 > 0:44:55it really doesn't help and can cause some very serious problems.
0:44:55 > 0:44:57Is it moral to do that?
0:44:57 > 0:44:59No, I don't believe it is, I think Richard was right.
0:44:59 > 0:45:01The NHS is there for everyone.
0:45:01 > 0:45:02We pay our taxes.
0:45:02 > 0:45:04It's part of the safety net of our society.
0:45:04 > 0:45:07It's the one thing that the vast majority of people in this country
0:45:07 > 0:45:08feel we should stick with.
0:45:08 > 0:45:11I know the Americans don't understand it and often complain
0:45:11 > 0:45:14on our behalf about our NHS, but at the end of the
0:45:14 > 0:45:18day it's wonderful.
0:45:18 > 0:45:21Part of its problem at the moment and one of my worries about some
0:45:21 > 0:45:24of these rules that seem to be being created are that the NHS
0:45:24 > 0:45:25is really struggling for cash.
0:45:25 > 0:45:29So IVF is often being removed, and I know in my hometown of Watford
0:45:29 > 0:45:32we have just had a major fight trying to keep a respite centre
0:45:32 > 0:45:34for the most severely disabled and ill children open,
0:45:34 > 0:45:38because there just aren't the funds to do it.
0:45:38 > 0:45:40And my real worry would be, I accept the health principle,
0:45:40 > 0:45:44but if it then becomes a delaying tactic to be used to not go
0:45:44 > 0:45:47ahead with operations, that's worrying.
0:45:47 > 0:45:53We must fund the NHS properly.
0:45:53 > 0:45:54This is about particular candidates for treatment.
0:45:54 > 0:45:57Chris Grayling, what do you think?
0:45:57 > 0:45:59I struggle with the idea that somebody would be denied
0:45:59 > 0:46:02treatment, I really do.
0:46:02 > 0:46:05To say to somebody who smoked, or somebody who is obese,
0:46:05 > 0:46:09"You may not have treatment", I really struggle with that idea.
0:46:09 > 0:46:12I think perhaps the only circumstance in which it becomes
0:46:12 > 0:46:15more of an issue is if somebody is systematically refusing to do
0:46:15 > 0:46:18something the doctors again and again are advising them to do.
0:46:18 > 0:46:22But to say to someone who walks through the door,
0:46:22 > 0:46:24"Because you smoked, you may not have an operation,
0:46:24 > 0:46:26"because you are obese, you may not
0:46:26 > 0:46:27have an operation..."
0:46:27 > 0:46:29Of course, the challenge that the health service faces
0:46:29 > 0:46:32is that demand on it is growing all the time.
0:46:32 > 0:46:34We have an ageing population, more and more people seeking treatment,
0:46:34 > 0:46:37the number of people going into A departments every year
0:46:37 > 0:46:38is rising up and up and up.
0:46:38 > 0:46:42But that should not be a reason for us to deny people treatment.
0:46:42 > 0:46:44The National Health Service is a national health service.
0:46:44 > 0:46:47Is the NHS in Hertfordshire, for instance, which is doing this,
0:46:47 > 0:46:49entitled, legally, to say what they've said?
0:46:49 > 0:46:51Well, actually the NHS in reality has always operated
0:46:51 > 0:46:53to a degree at a local level.
0:46:53 > 0:46:56Decisions are taken locally, decisions are taken
0:46:56 > 0:46:57by clinicians locally.
0:46:57 > 0:47:00And that's probably for the best because circumstances do vary
0:47:00 > 0:47:02in different parts of the country.
0:47:02 > 0:47:04So even though you don't like it, you can't, as a government,
0:47:04 > 0:47:06have any control over it?
0:47:06 > 0:47:07We can't step in.
0:47:07 > 0:47:08I would hope those people...
0:47:08 > 0:47:10The local decisions about commissioning services are now
0:47:10 > 0:47:12taken by organisations that are led by clinicians.
0:47:12 > 0:47:15I would still hope those people would take a step back and not
0:47:15 > 0:47:23actually say to somebody, "You won't get treatment".
0:47:23 > 0:47:26I will come to you there, the woman with spectacles,
0:47:26 > 0:47:27and then you over there.
0:47:27 > 0:47:28Me, thank you.
0:47:28 > 0:47:30Chris Grayling, to say that you struggle with somebody
0:47:30 > 0:47:33being turned away from the health service, and these are local
0:47:33 > 0:47:36decisions to be made, Hertfordshire CCG, which is the one
0:47:36 > 0:47:38you are referring to, where I live in Hertfordshire,
0:47:38 > 0:47:41are faced with having to make more and more cuts.
0:47:41 > 0:47:45So if you are asking them to make ?55 million more of cuts
0:47:45 > 0:47:49than they already have, then you are responsible,
0:47:49 > 0:47:53not the local clinicians.
0:47:53 > 0:47:57You are responsible, as the government, for asking them
0:47:57 > 0:48:04to make cuts, and for turning people away for basic treatment now.
0:48:04 > 0:48:07But what do you say to the argument that they are entitled to ration,
0:48:07 > 0:48:09in effect, their health care, on the grounds of
0:48:09 > 0:48:10obesity and smoking?
0:48:10 > 0:48:12That's the issue that is raised.
0:48:12 > 0:48:14I think I agree with Reverend Richard Coles,
0:48:14 > 0:48:17the health service is the jewel of the crown of this country.
0:48:17 > 0:48:20It's something that everybody should be proud of and should
0:48:20 > 0:48:24have equal access to.
0:48:24 > 0:48:27The trouble with the society we are living in at the moment,
0:48:27 > 0:48:29it's becoming more and more unequal.
0:48:29 > 0:48:35And this is a prime example of that inequality.
0:48:35 > 0:48:41APPLAUSE
0:48:41 > 0:48:42I mean...
0:48:42 > 0:48:47It's actually a really difficult question,
0:48:47 > 0:48:50to what extent are we responsible for our own health?
0:48:50 > 0:48:52I was thinking about the answer to this as everyone was talking.
0:48:52 > 0:48:55What I thought, I put myself in the position of the person
0:48:55 > 0:48:58who would have to tell someone that "Actually, I'm really sorry,
0:48:58 > 0:49:00"you can't have this treatment because you are overweight".
0:49:00 > 0:49:04I thought, "Would I ever want to be in that situation"?
0:49:04 > 0:49:07And not in a million years.
0:49:07 > 0:49:09Should we put other people in that situation?
0:49:09 > 0:49:11Of course we shouldn't.
0:49:11 > 0:49:12OK.
0:49:12 > 0:49:15The man with spectacles, and then I will come to you, Lisa.
0:49:15 > 0:49:17We often talk in terms of substance abuse,
0:49:17 > 0:49:20for example like heroin abuse, and addiction, that people
0:49:20 > 0:49:23are victims of their own addiction.
0:49:23 > 0:49:26And it could be said similarly that smokers are victims
0:49:26 > 0:49:31of their own addiction.
0:49:31 > 0:49:34And it's only a small step, then, to say that people
0:49:34 > 0:49:37who are overweight are victims of their own addiction to food.
0:49:37 > 0:49:40But surely it comes down to a certain extent to personal
0:49:40 > 0:49:43responsibility, and people surely have to be seen in some ways to be
0:49:43 > 0:49:46helping themselves to help the NHS to help them.
0:49:46 > 0:49:54APPLAUSE
0:49:54 > 0:49:58The woman in pink.
0:49:58 > 0:49:59I think it's discrimination.
0:49:59 > 0:50:02How can you deny one person one thing in one area and another person
0:50:02 > 0:50:08of an equal situation be allowed that same treatment in another area?
0:50:08 > 0:50:12But also its double standards.
0:50:12 > 0:50:14You're denying somebody treatment for consuming food, or cigarettes
0:50:14 > 0:50:17that they are paying taxes on.
0:50:17 > 0:50:20It doesn't make any sense to me.
0:50:20 > 0:50:21Lisa Nandy.
0:50:21 > 0:50:23Actually, I agree with what Simon said.
0:50:23 > 0:50:26There are a group of people in this country who do face restrictions
0:50:26 > 0:50:28on their health care, and that's asylum seekers.
0:50:28 > 0:50:34And actually, as well as being very immoral, in my view,
0:50:34 > 0:50:36and creating some absolutely terrible results, the impact
0:50:36 > 0:50:39of those regulations has been to really damage the relationship
0:50:39 > 0:50:46between doctor and patient.
0:50:46 > 0:50:49Because if you are the person who is rationing health care,
0:50:49 > 0:50:52you cannot then claim to be the person who first does no harm,
0:50:52 > 0:50:54and who is primarily responsible for their care.
0:50:54 > 0:50:57Before I came into Parliament, I used to work with
0:50:57 > 0:51:01homeless young people.
0:51:01 > 0:51:07And I absolutely agree with the sentiment that we all
0:51:07 > 0:51:09have a responsibility to take personal responsibility
0:51:09 > 0:51:11for our own health care and for keeping ourselves well
0:51:11 > 0:51:12and fit and healthy.
0:51:12 > 0:51:15But many of those young people would end up with drug
0:51:15 > 0:51:17and alcohol problems that they were then treated for.
0:51:17 > 0:51:21And it would then become very, very apparent that the drug
0:51:21 > 0:51:24and alcohol abuse was simply a way of self-medicating because of
0:51:24 > 0:51:25underlying mental health problems that hadn't
0:51:25 > 0:51:27been previously diagnosed.
0:51:27 > 0:51:31And so my worry is that if we even begin to start discussing taking
0:51:31 > 0:51:35this approach more generally in the National Health Service,
0:51:35 > 0:51:38we will go down a very, very slippery slope that will stop
0:51:38 > 0:51:41people getting the help that they need when they need it.
0:51:41 > 0:51:43Also, we all have our addictions, don't we?
0:51:43 > 0:51:46There are the obvious ones there, but we are all addicted
0:51:46 > 0:51:48to driving our cars, aren't we, with the consequences
0:51:48 > 0:51:50for health and emissions, and also through people getting
0:51:50 > 0:51:52into accidents, something the health service picks up
0:51:52 > 0:51:55without question, but we needn't do that.
0:51:55 > 0:51:57The man at the back, and then last questions.
0:51:57 > 0:52:03There is lots of talk about the morality of
0:52:03 > 0:52:05rationing health care, but what about the morality
0:52:05 > 0:52:08of taking money out of people's pockets to pay for other people's
0:52:08 > 0:52:10poor lifestyle choices that are completely their choice?
0:52:10 > 0:52:11APPLAUSE
0:52:11 > 0:52:13Since you have a hand up, I will come to you,
0:52:13 > 0:52:16sir, in the front row.
0:52:16 > 0:52:20As the cigarettes and obesity, why don't the government ban
0:52:20 > 0:52:23cigarettes and try to close up fast food stores so that people
0:52:23 > 0:52:27don't have the things that make them obese?
0:52:27 > 0:52:31OK, well, there is a prescription.
0:52:31 > 0:52:36Is it because of the taxes they get off the cigarettes?
0:52:36 > 0:52:40Is it because you get too much tax off cigarettes?
0:52:40 > 0:52:41Banning things is a big step.
0:52:41 > 0:52:44Banning fast food, I think, would be pretty unpopular
0:52:44 > 0:52:47in an awful lot of places in this country, actually.
0:52:47 > 0:52:49OK.
0:52:49 > 0:52:51We've got four or five minutes left.
0:52:51 > 0:52:55This question from Patricia Broderick, please.
0:52:55 > 0:52:59Are schools overstepping the mark when they send home alarm
0:52:59 > 0:53:07clocks with their pupils?
0:53:07 > 0:53:08A mysterious question maybe to some of you.
0:53:08 > 0:53:11It is just one school, it has to be said, but it
0:53:11 > 0:53:14does go to the heart of a particular problem.
0:53:14 > 0:53:15A school in Twickenham, London, which decided
0:53:15 > 0:53:17to give alarm clocks to its children, allegedly so.
0:53:17 > 0:53:20It says instead of using their iPhones to wake
0:53:20 > 0:53:22them up in the morning, they have a proper alarm clock
0:53:22 > 0:53:23and turn their iPhones off.
0:53:23 > 0:53:26And it goes to the heart of this whole business about children,
0:53:26 > 0:53:29young people and middle-aged people, and no doubt people around this
0:53:29 > 0:53:30table, being addicted to the iPhone.
0:53:30 > 0:53:32Richard Coles, are you addicted to your iPhone?
0:53:32 > 0:53:34Do you use an alarm clock in the morning?
0:53:34 > 0:53:37Maybe you should, if you don't.
0:53:37 > 0:53:40Well, I rise with the lark anyway, with a song in my heart!
0:53:40 > 0:53:45I would hesitate to say I am addicted to my mobile,
0:53:45 > 0:53:48but I do have a very active life on social media, which I have
0:53:48 > 0:53:52mixed feelings about.
0:53:52 > 0:53:54Partly, I think, I was in a restaurant the other day
0:53:54 > 0:53:57and there were two people sitting on the next table who were having
0:53:57 > 0:54:00dinner together but spent the whole time on their phones,
0:54:00 > 0:54:02which seemed to me to be not the ideal way to
0:54:02 > 0:54:04treat your dinner date.
0:54:04 > 0:54:07But on the other hand, it is a place where people meet.
0:54:07 > 0:54:10One of the things I love about social media, it's a place
0:54:10 > 0:54:12where you really can encounter a whole broad range of people,
0:54:12 > 0:54:14and some of those encounters are glancing and brief,
0:54:14 > 0:54:17but can be extremely rewarding and lead onto other
0:54:17 > 0:54:18sorts of exciting things.
0:54:18 > 0:54:21And also, if you want to get a kid off an iPhone or an iPad
0:54:21 > 0:54:24or whatever it may be, good luck with that.
0:54:24 > 0:54:26I'm a school governor and it's a perpetual question that
0:54:26 > 0:54:29comes up on our agenda.
0:54:29 > 0:54:31It's an extremely difficult thing to do.
0:54:31 > 0:54:34Have you thought about issuing alarm clocks to your children at school?
0:54:34 > 0:54:35No, I haven't, actually.
0:54:35 > 0:54:36Put it on the agenda.
0:54:36 > 0:54:38Simon Wolfson.
0:54:38 > 0:54:41Funnily enough, I, for religious reasons, I turn my phone off
0:54:41 > 0:54:44on Friday night at sundown and I keep it off until
0:54:44 > 0:54:47Saturday nightfall.
0:54:47 > 0:54:50And I've got to say, that is an incredibly
0:54:50 > 0:54:51liberating thing to do.
0:54:51 > 0:54:54So I don't know whether schools...
0:54:54 > 0:54:55This is for religious reasons?
0:54:55 > 0:54:57Yes, it's the Jewish sabbath.
0:54:57 > 0:55:00So it's a very liberating thing to do, and what you realise is that
0:55:00 > 0:55:03actually it's not a life-support machine and you can live for 24
0:55:03 > 0:55:04hours without your phone.
0:55:04 > 0:55:08And I think every so often people should...
0:55:08 > 0:55:11Somebody is saying they can't.
0:55:11 > 0:55:13I would recommend trying it.
0:55:13 > 0:55:17One weekend, turn your phone off for 24 hours and see what happens.
0:55:17 > 0:55:18You'll have a much nicer weekend.
0:55:18 > 0:55:21Lisa Nandy, do you see this as a real, serious problem...
0:55:21 > 0:55:24APPLAUSE
0:55:24 > 0:55:25Serious problem with...?
0:55:25 > 0:55:27With young people?
0:55:27 > 0:55:31I was going to say, good luck with getting
0:55:31 > 0:55:33politicians off their iPhones.
0:55:33 > 0:55:36Maybe if we turned them off for 24 hours we might get together
0:55:36 > 0:55:37and solve the problems with Brexit.
0:55:37 > 0:55:40I think that there is a danger in this debate that
0:55:40 > 0:55:43for all of the many, well versed reasons why it is a good
0:55:43 > 0:55:47idea to make sure that young people are out in the real world
0:55:47 > 0:55:50and meeting people who think differently from them, and are not
0:55:50 > 0:55:53in the bubble of social media, where we tend to seek out people
0:55:53 > 0:55:57who have the same opinions as us that are self-reinforcing.
0:55:57 > 0:56:00All of those things are well rehearsed and I think they are true,
0:56:00 > 0:56:03but we shouldn't forget as well that technology has been
0:56:03 > 0:56:05an enormous force for good for children and young people.
0:56:05 > 0:56:09The charity ChildLine says that one of the reasons that they have seen
0:56:09 > 0:56:12a rise in the number of young people coming to them for help about child
0:56:12 > 0:56:16abuse is because when I was growing up you had to pick up a phone,
0:56:16 > 0:56:19probably had to find a phone box and ring them.
0:56:19 > 0:56:21Now, young people can e-mail, they can contact through Facebook,
0:56:21 > 0:56:25they can contact through WhatsApp.
0:56:25 > 0:56:29There are so many ways for them to do it that actually for those
0:56:29 > 0:56:33young people who need a lifeline, they have found that having
0:56:33 > 0:56:38an iPhone, or access to technology has been it.
0:56:38 > 0:56:41So I think we should be really, really careful here not to say
0:56:41 > 0:56:44that it is just a force for bad, because for many of those
0:56:44 > 0:56:46young people it has been an absolute lifeline.
0:56:46 > 0:56:48Very briefly, you, sir, on the right.
0:56:48 > 0:56:49The man on the gangway.
0:56:49 > 0:56:51With technology, it's become an integral part of our lives,
0:56:51 > 0:56:53especially as young people.
0:56:53 > 0:56:54I'm only 17.
0:56:54 > 0:56:57But it's becoming a societal thing, like the invention of the Guttenberg
0:56:57 > 0:57:01press and the popularisation of the book, it's helping us
0:57:01 > 0:57:05to spread ideas, become more connected with the wider world,
0:57:05 > 0:57:08which is what we need in these trying times.
0:57:08 > 0:57:09Technological addiction is a very common thing.
0:57:09 > 0:57:12In the 1700s there was mass book reading and book
0:57:12 > 0:57:15reading was a social thing, and we all move past it
0:57:15 > 0:57:16with the next invention.
0:57:16 > 0:57:21It's a natural re-occurring cycle within human nature and history.
0:57:21 > 0:57:22OK, thank you very much.
0:57:22 > 0:57:24Chris Grayling, briefly, if you would, because we need
0:57:24 > 0:57:29an alarm clock because we're running out of time.
0:57:29 > 0:57:32I suspect in a lot of cases that neither an alarm clock nor a mobile
0:57:32 > 0:57:34phone would wake up many a teenager.
0:57:34 > 0:57:36But the reality is social media and mobile phones
0:57:36 > 0:57:37are a force for good.
0:57:37 > 0:57:39They can also be a force for bad.
0:57:39 > 0:57:42There are some real issues in social media that I think
0:57:42 > 0:57:44as a society we have to address.
0:57:44 > 0:57:45Sal Brinton.
0:57:45 > 0:57:48And therefore the key is to make sure that families discuss amongst
0:57:48 > 0:57:50themselves about how young people use their mobile phones
0:57:50 > 0:57:52and when they use them.
0:57:52 > 0:57:54And that's the most important thing.
0:57:54 > 0:57:56I am co-chair of the all-party group on bullying, and cyber-bullying,
0:57:56 > 0:58:04late at night on iPhones in bedrooms, is a real problem.
0:58:04 > 0:58:06OK, thank you very much indeed.
0:58:06 > 0:58:12APPLAUSE
0:58:12 > 0:58:15Our hour is up.
0:58:15 > 0:58:18Next Thursday we are going to be in Portsmouth.
0:58:18 > 0:58:20We've got Jacob Rees-Mogg, Shami Chakrabarti, Alex Salmond
0:58:20 > 0:58:21among those on the panel.
0:58:21 > 0:58:23The week after that, Kilmarnock.
0:58:23 > 0:58:26The journalist Owen Jones, Kezia Dugdale, who used
0:58:26 > 0:58:28to lead Scottish Labour is on the panel there.
0:58:28 > 0:58:37If you'd like to come to either Portsmouth or Kilmarnock...
0:58:51 > 0:58:54Here, in Dunstable, my thanks to our panellists,
0:58:54 > 0:58:58and to all of you who came to take part in this programme.
0:58:58 > 0:58:59I hope you enjoyed it.
0:58:59 > 0:59:02And for you at home, see you again next Thursday.
0:59:02 > 0:59:04Good night.