0:00:04 > 0:00:07We are in Portsmouth tonight, and this is Question Time.
0:00:14 > 0:00:17With us tonight, the Conservative MP Jacob Rees-Mogg.
0:00:17 > 0:00:20Shami Chakrabarti, a member of Jeremy Corbyn's top team,
0:00:20 > 0:00:23as Shadow Attorney General.
0:00:23 > 0:00:25The SNP's former First Minister for Scotland, who led the campaign
0:00:25 > 0:00:30for Scottish independence in 2014, Alex Salmond.
0:00:30 > 0:00:34The Political Editor of the Sunday express, Camilla Tominey.
0:00:34 > 0:00:38And the feminist academic and author, Germaine Greer.
0:00:53 > 0:00:56Thanks very much, and remember, as always, you can join the argument
0:00:56 > 0:00:58from home using our hashtag, BBCQT, on Twitter, Facebook.
0:00:58 > 0:01:02Text 83981.
0:01:02 > 0:01:04Push the red button and see what others are saying.
0:01:04 > 0:01:06Our first question tonight comes from Lisa Wheeler.
0:01:06 > 0:01:10Following Jared O'Mara's rightful suspension by the Labour Party,
0:01:10 > 0:01:15is a public figure allowed a past?
0:01:15 > 0:01:17Is a public figure allowed a past?
0:01:17 > 0:01:19Jared O'Mara, of course, was suspended the day before
0:01:19 > 0:01:21yesterday, or yesterday.
0:01:21 > 0:01:25Germaine Greer.
0:01:25 > 0:01:28Well, it's not just a past, I think, in his case.
0:01:28 > 0:01:32It's creeping up on him all the time.
0:01:32 > 0:01:34The assumption seems to be that he was dreadful
0:01:34 > 0:01:38when he was younger and he's getting all right now.
0:01:38 > 0:01:43In my experience, it's generally the other way around.
0:01:43 > 0:01:45The younger are nicer than the embittered eld,
0:01:45 > 0:01:49like me, whose tongues get sharper and sharper.
0:01:49 > 0:01:51They never get my joke at the airport when they say,
0:01:51 > 0:01:54"Have you got anything sharp in your luggage", and I say,
0:01:54 > 0:01:55"Just my tongue".
0:01:55 > 0:01:56They never laugh!
0:01:56 > 0:01:59It's really irritating.
0:01:59 > 0:02:04I'm confused about Jared O'Mara altogether.
0:02:04 > 0:02:07I'd like to know a bit more about who else was in the running
0:02:07 > 0:02:10to stand as the candidate in that seat.
0:02:10 > 0:02:12It seems to me a kind of kamikaze operation.
0:02:12 > 0:02:19And I guess I hope he can talk his way out of this.
0:02:19 > 0:02:20What, standing against Nick Clegg was kamikaze?
0:02:20 > 0:02:23I used to vote Lib Dem, in the days when I voted,
0:02:23 > 0:02:26and when there was a Lib Dem to vote for.
0:02:26 > 0:02:30So don't be mean about Nick Clegg.
0:02:30 > 0:02:33But it was he who he was standing against.
0:02:33 > 0:02:36Yes, I know, but I want to know who the other people
0:02:36 > 0:02:39were who could have been nominated for that seat.
0:02:39 > 0:02:42I mean, it's not as if it hasn't got a pretty decent Labour history.
0:02:42 > 0:02:44I thought you said it was kamikaze.
0:02:44 > 0:02:46On the part of the party.
0:02:46 > 0:02:48Oh, what, to put him in?
0:02:48 > 0:02:51Would you think he would last, judging from the way he has handled
0:02:51 > 0:02:53this little contretemps?
0:02:53 > 0:02:55I have no idea.
0:02:55 > 0:02:57Me either.
0:02:57 > 0:02:58Camilla Tominey.
0:02:58 > 0:03:01Well, apparently the party didn't interview him
0:03:01 > 0:03:03for selection, and equally there was some initial backtracking.
0:03:03 > 0:03:05Jeremy Corbyn supported his continued membership on the Women
0:03:05 > 0:03:09and Equalities Committee, which seemed absolutely nonsensical.
0:03:09 > 0:03:12These weren't just remarks that were misogynistic, but also remarks
0:03:12 > 0:03:15that were homophobic.
0:03:15 > 0:03:17He's justified them in part by saying they happened a long time
0:03:17 > 0:03:20ago, and his supporters have said, "Look, he was a young man".
0:03:20 > 0:03:23He was in his 20s.
0:03:23 > 0:03:26He wasn't a teenager.
0:03:26 > 0:03:29Equally, some of the remarks that have been reported in the blog,
0:03:29 > 0:03:32Guido Fawkes has led the way with this expose, it's been
0:03:32 > 0:03:34suggested, and again it's subject to investigation,
0:03:34 > 0:03:37that he made some very disparaging remarks towards somebody
0:03:37 > 0:03:38in a nightclub just eight months ago.
0:03:38 > 0:03:41So, no, I don't think it is appropriate for him
0:03:41 > 0:03:43to remain in the party.
0:03:43 > 0:03:45He's been suspended pending this investigation.
0:03:45 > 0:03:48But it does cast a new light on the influence of people like this
0:03:48 > 0:03:53in the Labour Party, the notion that there are some nasty
0:03:53 > 0:03:57elements that need to be rooted out.
0:03:57 > 0:04:03APPLAUSE
0:04:03 > 0:04:04Shami Chakrabarti.
0:04:04 > 0:04:07So Jared O'Mara has clearly done some very bad things.
0:04:07 > 0:04:09He's made some appalling remarks and there's no
0:04:09 > 0:04:11running away from that.
0:04:11 > 0:04:14But in relation to the question, yes, public figures should be
0:04:14 > 0:04:16allowed to have a past.
0:04:16 > 0:04:20But the question is, has this public figure changed?
0:04:20 > 0:04:22Now, my understanding of the situation is that initial
0:04:22 > 0:04:26revelations were historic.
0:04:26 > 0:04:30They went back 15-odd years, and he apologised fulsomely
0:04:30 > 0:04:35to the entire Parliamentary Labour Party in person.
0:04:35 > 0:04:38And on that basis, on that basis his apology was accepted and,
0:04:38 > 0:04:42you know, he was given a second chance.
0:04:42 > 0:04:45Then new revelations which are more recent
0:04:45 > 0:04:50and potentially more serious, and so then, rightly,
0:04:50 > 0:04:51he has been suspended pending an investigation.
0:04:51 > 0:04:54And just one final point, Camilla.
0:04:54 > 0:04:56There was no backtracking.
0:04:56 > 0:04:58I know it's been reported that Jeremy Corbyn said he shouldn't
0:04:58 > 0:05:00resign from the Women and Equalities Committee,
0:05:00 > 0:05:03but that's not true,
0:05:03 > 0:05:07and of course he did, quite rightly, resign.
0:05:07 > 0:05:08Hang on, just clarify one thing.
0:05:08 > 0:05:11How long was it between the moment when you found out about the latest
0:05:11 > 0:05:13allegations and the moment when he was suspended
0:05:13 > 0:05:15from the Labour Party?
0:05:15 > 0:05:17I believe that was very fast.
0:05:17 > 0:05:19It's one thing to say, "I was a troubled young man.
0:05:19 > 0:05:21"It was 15 years ago.
0:05:21 > 0:05:22"I'm very, very sorry.
0:05:22 > 0:05:24"It was a long time ago".
0:05:24 > 0:05:25That's fine.
0:05:25 > 0:05:26But have you really changed?
0:05:26 > 0:05:28And, of course, subsequent revelations and allegations
0:05:28 > 0:05:29are more recent.
0:05:29 > 0:05:35So that's why he's suspended.
0:05:35 > 0:05:37Is he now out of the party for good?
0:05:37 > 0:05:39No, he is under investigation in relation to...
0:05:39 > 0:05:41And can he work his way back, or not?
0:05:41 > 0:05:43Well, there's got to be due process.
0:05:43 > 0:05:46I believe in being firm but I also think we have to be fair.
0:05:46 > 0:05:49He's as out of the party as Ken Livingstone is at the moment,
0:05:49 > 0:05:51which is suspended but not expelled.
0:05:51 > 0:05:52No, no, no, that's not true.
0:05:52 > 0:05:55I'm sorry but I am the Shadow Attorney and that's not the same,
0:05:55 > 0:05:57because Jared O'Mara is currently under investigation,
0:05:57 > 0:05:59and therefore these charges have to be investigated.
0:05:59 > 0:06:02He's got to be looked at fairly.
0:06:02 > 0:06:04That's what we should do.
0:06:04 > 0:06:07OK.
0:06:07 > 0:06:08You, in the front, sir.
0:06:08 > 0:06:11I think the problem is, with the rise of Momentum,
0:06:11 > 0:06:13we're going to get a lot more of this.
0:06:13 > 0:06:16I think the Labour Party as we know it should be frightened,
0:06:16 > 0:06:22because at the next election these people are going to be dropped
0:06:22 > 0:06:26into seats without any selection, and it could be the end of democracy
0:06:26 > 0:06:33as we know it.
0:06:33 > 0:06:35You're saying he got in without due process, wasn't checked?
0:06:35 > 0:06:36Yes, yes.
0:06:36 > 0:06:37The woman, there.
0:06:37 > 0:06:40I was going to say that actually the point of the question
0:06:40 > 0:06:42wasn't about selection, although that obviously is a point.
0:06:42 > 0:06:45It wasn't about Momentum and the Labour Party generally.
0:06:45 > 0:06:49It was a more general question about whether or not people
0:06:49 > 0:06:52in the public figures and the public face of society, politicians
0:06:52 > 0:06:55of all walks of life, would be entitled to a past.
0:06:55 > 0:06:59It's not a singling out of the Labour Party.
0:06:59 > 0:07:00No, fair enough.
0:07:00 > 0:07:01What's your view?
0:07:01 > 0:07:03Because you asked the question.
0:07:03 > 0:07:06My view, I agree with what Shami says, actually he has a number
0:07:06 > 0:07:09of things he's done in the past, and actually I think that we've
0:07:09 > 0:07:12all done things in our past that we probably regret.
0:07:12 > 0:07:15Unless I'm on my own, which I doubt it.
0:07:15 > 0:07:18But the question is, some of the things he's done recently,
0:07:18 > 0:07:20the allegations that have been made recently, I think I should
0:07:20 > 0:07:23be clear about that, are actually quite worrying.
0:07:23 > 0:07:29And I think that that's the thing that needs to be dealt with.
0:07:29 > 0:07:31Alex Salmond.
0:07:31 > 0:07:32I agree with the questioner, absolutely.
0:07:32 > 0:07:36Probably the only thing that George Bush Junior memorably ever
0:07:36 > 0:07:40said sensibly was when he was asked about alcoholism and drugs.
0:07:40 > 0:07:45He said, "When I was young and foolish, I was young and foolish".
0:07:45 > 0:07:47And that was a good reply.
0:07:47 > 0:07:52If this had just been Mr O'Mara's past, as 21, online,
0:07:52 > 0:07:57I don't think we would be having it as a question tonight.
0:07:57 > 0:08:01The more worrying things are twofold.
0:08:01 > 0:08:04One, that the tweets and texts are pretty nasty stuff, misogynist,
0:08:04 > 0:08:07anti-gay, homophobic.
0:08:07 > 0:08:10And they are not in the past.
0:08:10 > 0:08:15It's the present which is catching up with Mr O'Mara.
0:08:15 > 0:08:18Another aspect is of course what the gentleman raised about
0:08:18 > 0:08:20was he ever vetted, because the suggestion seems
0:08:20 > 0:08:22that he didn't actually go before a vetting panel,
0:08:22 > 0:08:24perhaps because that wasn't a seat that Labour expected to win
0:08:24 > 0:08:29when they were selecting candidates in a surprise election.
0:08:29 > 0:08:32But nonetheless, it's the sort of thing you would expect a normal
0:08:32 > 0:08:34vetting panel to uncover.
0:08:34 > 0:08:40Where I disagree with the gentleman, if I can, is I don't think this
0:08:40 > 0:08:43is about the Labour Party or Momentum or any party.
0:08:43 > 0:08:45One of the most depressing things about this sort of stuff
0:08:45 > 0:08:48is what I call the what-aboutery.
0:08:48 > 0:08:50Someone says something wrong in one party and they say,
0:08:50 > 0:08:52"What about so-and-so who said such and such,
0:08:52 > 0:08:54and this one said that..."
0:08:54 > 0:08:57Sexism is pretty endemic in society.
0:08:57 > 0:08:58We should recognise that.
0:08:58 > 0:09:01And once we recognise that and recognise it's not a particular
0:09:01 > 0:09:04problem for a particular group in a particular party,
0:09:04 > 0:09:06then I think it might help the debate.
0:09:06 > 0:09:09But I do agree that Mr O'Mara has the right to defend himself.
0:09:09 > 0:09:14He has the right to go in front of the party enquiry.
0:09:14 > 0:09:17You know, he shouldn't be lynched by a combination of Guido Fawkes,
0:09:17 > 0:09:19the Daily Mail, the Sunday express, the Daily Express...
0:09:19 > 0:09:20APPLAUSE
0:09:20 > 0:09:27The Sun is lecturing people on sexism.
0:09:27 > 0:09:29This is a substantial move forward.
0:09:29 > 0:09:32Had he been a Tory MP, he would have been lynched
0:09:32 > 0:09:35by the Guardian, the Independent...
0:09:35 > 0:09:38APPLAUSE
0:09:38 > 0:09:41All right, Jacob Rees-Mogg.
0:09:41 > 0:09:44I agree with a lot of what's been said before.
0:09:44 > 0:09:46I think Mr O'Mara is entitled to due process.
0:09:46 > 0:09:52I think that politicians are allowed to have done things in their youth
0:09:52 > 0:09:54that they wouldn't wish to repeat now.
0:09:54 > 0:09:56But there must be limits.
0:09:56 > 0:10:00There must be some things that we feel are so beyond the pale,
0:10:00 > 0:10:02and so indicative of a political belief that they become inexcusable.
0:10:02 > 0:10:09And I would go further.
0:10:09 > 0:10:11I think we should be really worried, as a society, with online abuse.
0:10:11 > 0:10:14And this is a particular problem for female MPs.
0:10:14 > 0:10:19They get a level of abuse that as a male MP I don't get,
0:10:19 > 0:10:24and I'm not entirely free from controversy from time to time.
0:10:24 > 0:10:27But I simply do not get it.
0:10:27 > 0:10:30But people like Jess Phillips, who is a friend of mine,
0:10:30 > 0:10:31is appallingly treated.
0:10:31 > 0:10:33She gets death threats, she gets hate words
0:10:33 > 0:10:37addressed at her on Twitter.
0:10:37 > 0:10:40And so I think somebody who is involved with that is doing
0:10:40 > 0:10:44something that is very corrosive to society,
0:10:44 > 0:10:46and society needs to look at itself and think,
0:10:46 > 0:10:50"How are we putting up with this and how are we going to stop it"?
0:10:50 > 0:10:52Because if we don't stop it, it will deter very
0:10:52 > 0:10:54good people from taking up high-profile roles.
0:10:54 > 0:11:01APPLAUSE
0:11:01 > 0:11:05I will take our second question from Zahid Khan, please.
0:11:05 > 0:11:09As Raqqa is recaptured and freed from Isis,
0:11:09 > 0:11:13people who travelled from the UK to fight for Isis will
0:11:13 > 0:11:14be looking to return.
0:11:14 > 0:11:16Should they be allowed back?
0:11:16 > 0:11:22All right, Jacob Rees-Mogg, you start on this because it was
0:11:22 > 0:11:24a member of your party who made remarks about this that
0:11:24 > 0:11:26were widely reported.
0:11:26 > 0:11:30Indeed, it was Rory Stewart who made remarks about this.
0:11:30 > 0:11:33Again, I think people are entitled to due process.
0:11:33 > 0:11:36I believe that one of the fundamental freedoms
0:11:36 > 0:11:40that we have as Briton's is that we have a rule
0:11:40 > 0:11:44of law and we are innocent until proved guilty.
0:11:44 > 0:11:46And that should always apply.
0:11:46 > 0:11:50I think it's wrong to say that people are guilty before
0:11:50 > 0:11:52you've got evidence.
0:11:52 > 0:11:54Rory Stewart said, let me just quote him,
0:11:54 > 0:11:58"IS fighters are a serious danger to us.
0:11:58 > 0:12:00"Unfortunately, the only way of dealing with them will be,
0:12:00 > 0:12:03"in almost every case, to kill them".
0:12:03 > 0:12:06I am not in favour of capital punishment and I am certainly not
0:12:06 > 0:12:09in favour of the state taking life without due process.
0:12:09 > 0:12:14APPLAUSE
0:12:14 > 0:12:17If you are at war, people get killed, but we are not
0:12:17 > 0:12:20going to be fighting with these people on a battlefield.
0:12:20 > 0:12:23To take them out using special services, I think, would be illegal
0:12:23 > 0:12:25under UK and international law.
0:12:25 > 0:12:29But, we must make sure that they are properly
0:12:29 > 0:12:32vetted when they get back.
0:12:32 > 0:12:34We must make sure that they have, if they have committed
0:12:34 > 0:12:38crimes, that they are given very long sentences.
0:12:38 > 0:12:41And if necessary, we must hold them until we've had
0:12:41 > 0:12:43a chance to investigate, which I would not
0:12:43 > 0:12:44normally be in favour of.
0:12:44 > 0:12:48But I think you can make a reasonable guess that if you've
0:12:48 > 0:12:52gone out to fight for Isis, you are a fairly undesirable person.
0:12:52 > 0:12:53You mean hold them indefinitely?
0:12:53 > 0:12:55Not indefinitely.
0:12:55 > 0:12:59Hold them for a limited time to try and gather evidence so you can then
0:12:59 > 0:13:03bring them to trial.
0:13:03 > 0:13:05I think there's a reasonable assumption that most people who have
0:13:05 > 0:13:07gone out there are likely to have committed crimes
0:13:07 > 0:13:09whilst they are out there.
0:13:09 > 0:13:11But a reasonable assumption should not deprive somebody
0:13:11 > 0:13:13of their liberty forever.
0:13:13 > 0:13:15OK, you, sir.
0:13:15 > 0:13:17Don't hold them anywhere. Don't let them back in.
0:13:17 > 0:13:19Don't let them back in.
0:13:19 > 0:13:22And you, sir, in the front here.
0:13:22 > 0:13:26The moment they get on that plane to go wherever they want to go,
0:13:26 > 0:13:28that's it, they lose all rights as a British citizen.
0:13:28 > 0:13:30If they are going to kill, potentially, British
0:13:30 > 0:13:34soldiers, then, no...
0:13:34 > 0:13:36They've lost their rights?
0:13:36 > 0:13:37They've lost it.
0:13:37 > 0:13:41Why should they?
0:13:41 > 0:13:42Germaine Greer.
0:13:42 > 0:13:44That's two people saying they've lost their rights,
0:13:44 > 0:13:45don't let them back.
0:13:45 > 0:13:47Which doesn't mean that we can simply murder them.
0:13:47 > 0:13:49Because illegal killing of people is what's known as murder.
0:13:49 > 0:13:52But we don't know that they did murder us.
0:13:52 > 0:13:55What we know is that they went to fight for Isis.
0:13:55 > 0:13:58We don't know why they went to fight for Isis.
0:13:58 > 0:14:01But we seem to believe that if you go to fight for Isis,
0:14:01 > 0:14:04the outcome is that you'll be loyal to Isis.
0:14:04 > 0:14:06This isn't actually the evidence that we have had.
0:14:06 > 0:14:08The situation when they get there is phantasmagoric.
0:14:08 > 0:14:10It's dreadful.
0:14:10 > 0:14:12And we need to debrief them.
0:14:12 > 0:14:15We need to know what's going on.
0:14:15 > 0:14:16They have to talk to us.
0:14:16 > 0:14:20APPLAUSE
0:14:20 > 0:14:24Shami Chakrabarti.
0:14:24 > 0:14:29This is slightly strange for me, perhaps, because we are now
0:14:29 > 0:14:31about ten minutes into Question Time and we are on to
0:14:31 > 0:14:32the second question,
0:14:32 > 0:14:34and once more I'm going to completely agree
0:14:34 > 0:14:35with Jacob Rees-Mogg.
0:14:35 > 0:14:36Don't worry, don't worry.
0:14:36 > 0:14:37I'm not at all worried.
0:14:37 > 0:14:39It's no indictment.
0:14:39 > 0:14:45On this, Jacob is completely right.
0:14:45 > 0:14:46to
0:14:46 > 0:14:49We believe in the rule of law.
0:14:49 > 0:14:56We believe in fundamental rights and freedoms and we do not take
0:14:56 > 0:14:59people out rather than arrest them and put them on trial.
0:14:59 > 0:15:02So what Rory Stewart said...
0:15:02 > 0:15:05Sorry, just to go back to Rory Stewart, what he said,
0:15:05 > 0:15:06you'd take issue with?
0:15:06 > 0:15:08You know, I don't know what exactly he meant and I don't
0:15:08 > 0:15:12want to have a go at Rory Stewart, but the point is -
0:15:12 > 0:15:13you can sometimes use lethal force.
0:15:13 > 0:15:17As Jacob said, you can use it on the battlefield.
0:15:17 > 0:15:20You can even do it on the street of your town in the UK,
0:15:20 > 0:15:22if it is strictly necessary to save life.
0:15:22 > 0:15:25That is lawful under English criminal law
0:15:25 > 0:15:29and under international law, but we are not Isis.
0:15:29 > 0:15:32We believe in the rule of law and, do you know what else,
0:15:32 > 0:15:35even from a sort of practical national security and world
0:15:35 > 0:15:37security point of view, Jermaine's point is very important.
0:15:37 > 0:15:40We need intelligence.
0:15:40 > 0:15:43We want to know why these people went in the first place.
0:15:43 > 0:15:46We want to know what intelligence they bring back about other people
0:15:46 > 0:15:49who are at liberty in the UK.
0:15:49 > 0:15:52So there are all sorts of reasons why you can't just look the other
0:15:52 > 0:15:55way and pretend that it's good riddance to bad rubbish because it
0:15:55 > 0:15:59doesn't work like that.
0:15:59 > 0:16:01APPLAUSE
0:16:01 > 0:16:04We go back to you, sir, the man up there, at the back,
0:16:04 > 0:16:07who said that they should just simply not be allowed
0:16:07 > 0:16:08back into the UK.
0:16:08 > 0:16:10It's not very hard why they went, is it?
0:16:10 > 0:16:11It's not what?
0:16:11 > 0:16:12They went for one reason.
0:16:12 > 0:16:15They went to Syria for one reason, to murder infidels, you know,
0:16:15 > 0:16:16the local population.
0:16:16 > 0:16:18There are people who may have been brainwashed.
0:16:18 > 0:16:21There may have been people who may have gone as romantic Isis brides,
0:16:21 > 0:16:23who then very quickly changed.
0:16:23 > 0:16:26There are all sorts of things at play here.
0:16:26 > 0:16:30But the point is, the world is shrinking and it's interconnected.
0:16:30 > 0:16:33You know, people are a danger to us over there as well as over
0:16:33 > 0:16:36here and we cannot turn our back on our responsibilities at law.
0:16:36 > 0:16:37Camilla.
0:16:37 > 0:16:41I was going to say, isn't one of the problems and why there's
0:16:41 > 0:16:43public frustration that's been echoed here is that some
0:16:43 > 0:16:46of the existing laws just don't seem to be successful in bringing these
0:16:46 > 0:16:48people to justice.
0:16:48 > 0:16:50So temporary exclusion orders, for instance, I think
0:16:50 > 0:16:50only one's been used.
0:16:50 > 0:16:53Equally, there are arguments that counteract the efforts that
0:16:53 > 0:16:57are being made to bring these people to task.
0:16:57 > 0:17:00There was a suggestion, in a Times leader earlier in the week,
0:17:00 > 0:17:03that we should reinvigorate the law of treason and we should make
0:17:03 > 0:17:06example of these people and say - look, you've committed a crime
0:17:06 > 0:17:10against everything that Britain stands for, Britishness itself.
0:17:10 > 0:17:12APPLAUSE
0:17:12 > 0:17:15I don't agree with an eye for an eye, I equally found
0:17:15 > 0:17:17Rory Stewart's comments uncomfortable because drone
0:17:17 > 0:17:22strikes usually involve some collateral damage.
0:17:22 > 0:17:25We look at the recent killing of the so-called 'White Widow',
0:17:25 > 0:17:27Sally Jones, we still don't know what's happened to
0:17:27 > 0:17:28her 12-year-old son.
0:17:28 > 0:17:29Quite.
0:17:29 > 0:17:33Unfortunately, he may well have been killed with her.
0:17:33 > 0:17:36I'm sorry, but a 12-year-old doesn't choose to be in that situation.
0:17:36 > 0:17:38Of course his mother was culpable, but I'm not comfortable
0:17:38 > 0:17:42with the collateral damage that could be children's deaths.
0:17:42 > 0:17:45What Mr Khan was saying was, should they be allowed back into the UK?
0:17:45 > 0:17:47That was your question, wasn't it?
0:17:47 > 0:17:49If they're allowed back, fine, but let's actually try
0:17:49 > 0:17:51them with something - No, should they be allowed
0:17:51 > 0:17:52back is the question?
0:17:52 > 0:17:54They should be allowed back - Under arrest protection.
0:17:54 > 0:17:56They should be facing due process.
0:17:56 > 0:17:58But what the Government needs to sort out is, under what basis?
0:17:58 > 0:18:00What are they being tried for?
0:18:00 > 0:18:02OK, you sir.
0:18:02 > 0:18:04They've aligned themselves with a force that is against the West.
0:18:04 > 0:18:09It's declared war on the West, we are the West.
0:18:09 > 0:18:12They've aligned themselves with that force and I agree with you,
0:18:12 > 0:18:15I agree with what you said, that the laws around treachery
0:18:15 > 0:18:16need to be rebooted.
0:18:16 > 0:18:18You know, Tony Blair took those away, they need
0:18:18 > 0:18:21to be tried as traitors, in my book.
0:18:21 > 0:18:24A treason law which would mean that whatever their reasons,
0:18:24 > 0:18:27if they'd been shown to have joined Isis, they would be imprisoned,
0:18:27 > 0:18:28is that what you're saying?
0:18:28 > 0:18:29Absolutely, yeah.
0:18:29 > 0:18:30You would.
0:18:30 > 0:18:32Alex Salmond.
0:18:32 > 0:18:34It's not - if I can say to the gentleman -
0:18:34 > 0:18:36quite as simple as that.
0:18:36 > 0:18:39One of the great mistakes I think of many, many mistakes that has been
0:18:39 > 0:18:43made in our Middle East policy is that we're not giving sufficient
0:18:43 > 0:18:45support to the Kurds, who have been by far
0:18:45 > 0:18:46the most reliable allies.
0:18:46 > 0:18:49Who have the best track record of having...
0:18:49 > 0:18:52where they control having a society which allows people of all religions
0:18:52 > 0:18:56to co-exist peacefully.
0:18:56 > 0:18:58Now, a Kurdish fighter, there's volunteers who have gone
0:18:58 > 0:19:00to fight for the Kurds, some have been on television
0:19:00 > 0:19:01over the last week.
0:19:01 > 0:19:03These people already and, almost certainly over
0:19:03 > 0:19:09the next few months, will be in conflict
0:19:09 > 0:19:12with the UK-backed Iraqi government because it's almost certain there's
0:19:12 > 0:19:14going to be armed conflict escalated between the Iraqi
0:19:14 > 0:19:19government and the Kurds.
0:19:19 > 0:19:23If one of the UK volunteers has gone to fight for the Kurds against Isis
0:19:23 > 0:19:26is then drawn into that conflict, would he then be in the same -
0:19:26 > 0:19:35He's not going to come back and blow us up on a bus.
0:19:35 > 0:19:37Well, but you were saying this because they were taking
0:19:37 > 0:19:39arms against our allies, arms against the West.
0:19:39 > 0:19:40This is not as simple.
0:19:40 > 0:19:43Interestingly enough, nobody - I don't know about the audience -
0:19:43 > 0:19:46but certainly in the panel, has agreed with Rory Stewart
0:19:46 > 0:19:47they should just be killed.
0:19:47 > 0:19:49For the very obvious point, as Camilla made,
0:19:49 > 0:19:51you don't just kill them, you tend to kill other people
0:19:51 > 0:19:54with them, like the 12-year-old who may or may not be dead.
0:19:54 > 0:19:57Which is quite an interesting thing for us to think about.
0:19:57 > 0:19:59We actually don't know if an American drone,
0:19:59 > 0:20:01but still approved by the UK, killed a 12-year-old
0:20:01 > 0:20:02British citizen.
0:20:02 > 0:20:05The Prime Minister says - oh, well, I can't talk about that.
0:20:05 > 0:20:08Well, you know, I think we have to talk about that.
0:20:08 > 0:20:09APPLAUSE
0:20:09 > 0:20:11If you ask in general, what I think should happen,
0:20:11 > 0:20:14is British citizens should be brought back, they should be put
0:20:14 > 0:20:16on trial and they should go through due process of law
0:20:16 > 0:20:19and we should establish that so that we can say -
0:20:19 > 0:20:22look, we operate under the rule of law and a judicial system,
0:20:22 > 0:20:24we don't just kill people and we don't really,
0:20:24 > 0:20:27Jacob, if I may say so - and I'm sure you wouldn't if you're
0:20:27 > 0:20:30elevated to these positions - have Government ministers who block
0:20:30 > 0:20:31that sort of thing out.
0:20:31 > 0:20:32The woman there.
0:20:32 > 0:20:35Yes, you say about allowing them to come back in.
0:20:35 > 0:20:37You know, they've been out, they've been fighting for Isis.
0:20:37 > 0:20:40Where are we going to detain these individuals when they do come back?
0:20:40 > 0:20:43We've already got a prison system that's already overflowing.
0:20:43 > 0:20:47We also had our detention centre, which is locale to here, close.
0:20:47 > 0:20:51So where would we put these people while we wait on trial becase again,
0:20:51 > 0:20:53as the panel were saying, they've got human rights,
0:20:53 > 0:20:56but they are coming over and back here to come back and possibly
0:20:56 > 0:20:57blow us up.
0:20:57 > 0:20:59The man at the back.
0:20:59 > 0:21:00Let's just hear more members of the audience.
0:21:00 > 0:21:03You, sir, with the spectacles and then you in green.
0:21:03 > 0:21:08Yes, the man at the very back there.
0:21:08 > 0:21:09We're hearing about this in the future tense,
0:21:09 > 0:21:13but my understandin is that all these people are already back.
0:21:13 > 0:21:14So, where are they?
0:21:14 > 0:21:15OK.
0:21:15 > 0:21:16And you in green.
0:21:16 > 0:21:18I don't understand why people are making excuses for them.
0:21:18 > 0:21:20They've joined a death cult against us.
0:21:20 > 0:21:21You've seen the videos.
0:21:21 > 0:21:24Well, hopefully, you haven't seen the videos when they slaughtered
0:21:24 > 0:21:25and beheaded journalists.
0:21:25 > 0:21:27They've supported that, so why would you want people
0:21:27 > 0:21:32supporting that group back in the country?
0:21:32 > 0:21:34APPLAUSE
0:21:34 > 0:21:36So what would you do?
0:21:36 > 0:21:37What would I do?
0:21:37 > 0:21:40Yeah, just not let them back in.
0:21:40 > 0:21:43They're not coming back, you've made your decision.
0:21:43 > 0:21:44OK.
0:21:44 > 0:21:46Are they not dangerous wherever they are?
0:21:46 > 0:21:49Yeah -Not to us.
0:21:49 > 0:21:50They are to us.
0:21:50 > 0:21:52Do you want the danger here?
0:21:52 > 0:21:55Do you want them far away from us, which the majority will.
0:21:55 > 0:21:58Why would you want them back when you've seen the atrocities that
0:21:58 > 0:22:00have been caused by these people?
0:22:00 > 0:22:04Because the world is tiny and we have to take our
0:22:04 > 0:22:06responsibility for our citizens, however wicked they have
0:22:06 > 0:22:10been in the world.
0:22:10 > 0:22:12APPLAUSE
0:22:12 > 0:22:14Briefly Jacob, just a last point.
0:22:14 > 0:22:15Just two thoughts.
0:22:15 > 0:22:18One is, that if we lower ourselves to the level of Isis,
0:22:18 > 0:22:20we destroy our own values more effectively than
0:22:20 > 0:22:23they can do it to us.
0:22:23 > 0:22:25APPLAUSE
0:22:25 > 0:22:30The second is, that we actively want to get them back and lock them up.
0:22:30 > 0:22:33I agree with Baroness Chakrabarti, that we need to have them in British
0:22:33 > 0:22:36prisons so they are out of the ability to commit any
0:22:36 > 0:22:37harm on the rest of us.
0:22:37 > 0:22:39They are just as radicalised in prisons.
0:22:39 > 0:22:40At our expense.
0:22:40 > 0:22:42They are at our expense because they're British
0:22:42 > 0:22:44to start with and therefore, to some extent, it's
0:22:44 > 0:22:46our responsibility.
0:22:46 > 0:22:56But our country will be safer if these people are in prison
0:22:57 > 0:22:59and I want to see them locked up for the crimes
0:22:59 > 0:23:00that they have committed.
0:23:00 > 0:23:01Yes, you.
0:23:01 > 0:23:04What about the people that have come back to this
0:23:04 > 0:23:06country and have been lost in the system and re-offended?
0:23:06 > 0:23:07OK.
0:23:07 > 0:23:09The audience makes a good point as well
0:23:09 > 0:23:10about radicalisation in prisons.
0:23:10 > 0:23:11Yeah.
0:23:11 > 0:23:13And the danger that that poses.
0:23:13 > 0:23:14APPLAUSE
0:23:14 > 0:23:16Our current detention system has been largely criticised for causing
0:23:16 > 0:23:19minor offenders to be, you know, put into more serious
0:23:19 > 0:23:22situations of crime.
0:23:22 > 0:23:25Isn't that risk going to get higher if they are mingling with people
0:23:25 > 0:23:28who are possibly trained Isis fighters?
0:23:28 > 0:23:31We don't know, we haven't seen what's happened over there.
0:23:31 > 0:23:34You know, religiously radical.
0:23:34 > 0:23:37We don't know what they're saying in the prisons.
0:23:37 > 0:23:40They could be radicalising even more people who already have
0:23:40 > 0:23:41criminal backgrounds.
0:23:41 > 0:23:43All right, we will go on.
0:23:43 > 0:23:46Have you had words with your Foreign Office Minister
0:23:46 > 0:23:48about what he said about killing - I haven't spoken
0:23:48 > 0:23:49to him recently, no.
0:23:49 > 0:23:52What would you say to him if you came across him?
0:23:52 > 0:23:54Well, we might talk about the weather, you never know!
0:23:54 > 0:23:56I haven't discussed it with him.
0:23:56 > 0:23:59I don't share his view.
0:23:59 > 0:24:01I don't think the right approach is for the British Government
0:24:01 > 0:24:02to break our own law.
0:24:02 > 0:24:03It's not lawful.
0:24:03 > 0:24:06OK, we'll go on to another question.
0:24:06 > 0:24:09Just before we do, we're going to be in Kilmarnock next Thursday
0:24:09 > 0:24:11and Croydon the week after that.
0:24:11 > 0:24:14On the screen you can see the details of how to come
0:24:14 > 0:24:15and be in the audience.
0:24:15 > 0:24:18But I want to go on to a question from Sheena Brown, please.
0:24:18 > 0:24:21Sheena Brown.
0:24:21 > 0:24:25Should Mark Carney and the BBC admit Brexit will happen and get
0:24:25 > 0:24:28behind Britain instead of deprecating our nation
0:24:28 > 0:24:29and continually weakening our bargaining stance?
0:24:29 > 0:24:35Here, here.
0:24:35 > 0:24:43APPLAUSE
0:24:43 > 0:24:51Well, that admonition of course comes from something that
0:24:51 > 0:24:54Jacob Rees-Mogg himself said this week when he called Mark Carney "one
0:24:54 > 0:24:55of the enemies of Brexit.
0:24:55 > 0:24:57He's opposed it consistently" and called the BBC "the Brexit
0:24:57 > 0:24:58Bashing Corporation."
0:24:58 > 0:25:00Alex Salmond, is that how you see things?
0:25:00 > 0:25:05No.
0:25:05 > 0:25:09I disagree with the question from the lady.
0:25:09 > 0:25:16What weakened Britain's negotiating stance was to invoke Article 50
0:25:16 > 0:25:18and to go into a time-limited negotiation where we couldn't
0:25:18 > 0:25:20afford to have no deal.
0:25:20 > 0:25:25As soon as we did that, we placed every single card
0:25:25 > 0:25:28in the hand of the other 27 European Union countries,
0:25:28 > 0:25:29represented by Michel Barnier.
0:25:29 > 0:25:32I don't think...
0:25:32 > 0:25:34I mean, I think we could have the Angel Gabriel negotiating
0:25:34 > 0:25:40for us and we wouldn't get a decent deal.
0:25:40 > 0:25:50I actually rate David Davis rather highly, I think he's able,
0:25:54 > 0:25:56but his disagreement with the Prime Minister this week
0:25:56 > 0:25:57exemplified the problem he's got.
0:25:57 > 0:26:01On the one hand, he has to say and pretend that no deal is possible
0:26:01 > 0:26:04or even semi attractive and then he has to say it might go
0:26:04 > 0:26:07down to the 59th minute and second of the 59th hour,
0:26:07 > 0:26:08or whatever it is.
0:26:08 > 0:26:11And then he has to say, well, of course we said
0:26:11 > 0:26:13there was going to be a vote in the House of Commons
0:26:13 > 0:26:15before that happened, which technically of course then
0:26:15 > 0:26:16wouldn't be possible.
0:26:16 > 0:26:19What it exemplifies is this time-limited negotiation,
0:26:19 > 0:26:21which we blundered into, without securing a positional
0:26:21 > 0:26:24deal at the end of it because all of the time the clock
0:26:24 > 0:26:26is working for the other 27.
0:26:26 > 0:26:29That's what's weakened the UK's negotiating position,
0:26:29 > 0:26:32not anything that the Government or the Bank of England has said.
0:26:32 > 0:26:34And the BBC?
0:26:34 > 0:26:37Well, I mean, of course I always defend the BBC!
0:26:37 > 0:26:40I don't remember that during the Scottish referendum?
0:26:40 > 0:26:42That's the whole point.
0:26:42 > 0:26:45Did you defend the BBC then, I don't think so?
0:26:45 > 0:26:49Let me put this way, if I can give you half a compliment.
0:26:49 > 0:26:52I think the BBC were much less bias during the Brexit referendum
0:26:52 > 0:26:54than they were during the Scottish referendum, there you go.
0:26:54 > 0:27:01Right.
0:27:01 > 0:27:05Shami Chakrabarti, you go next and I'll come to you in a moment.
0:27:05 > 0:27:07With respect to the questioner, I do think that on this
0:27:07 > 0:27:10one the Bank of England and the BBC are a distraction
0:27:10 > 0:27:11from the real problem here.
0:27:11 > 0:27:13They are not responsible for negotiating Brexit,
0:27:13 > 0:27:15it's the Government and it's the Government that is failing
0:27:15 > 0:27:17in that responsibility.
0:27:17 > 0:27:19APPLAUSE
0:27:19 > 0:27:22Mark Carney...
0:27:22 > 0:27:25We know that David Dimbleby is all powerful, but he is not
0:27:25 > 0:27:27negotiating Britain's exit from the EU.
0:27:27 > 0:27:28The Government is divided.
0:27:28 > 0:27:31The Government is chaotic.
0:27:31 > 0:27:35The Government has no plan, and we are in jeopardy as a result.
0:27:35 > 0:27:36Jacob Rees-Mogg.
0:27:36 > 0:27:39Thank you.
0:27:39 > 0:27:42Well, first of all, why I have criticised the governor of the Bank
0:27:42 > 0:27:45of England and continue to do so, is that during the Brexit referendum
0:27:45 > 0:27:49he made the Bank's views of Brexit clear in a way that he never does
0:27:49 > 0:27:50in a general election.
0:27:50 > 0:27:53He didn't give his view earlier this year on what Mr Corbyn's
0:27:53 > 0:27:55economics plans would do to the United Kingdom,
0:27:55 > 0:27:57but he did express a view on Brexit.
0:27:57 > 0:28:00That seemed to me to politicise the Bank of England
0:28:00 > 0:28:03and besmirch its reputation.
0:28:03 > 0:28:06We trust the Bank of England to be apolitical, to be independent,
0:28:06 > 0:28:09not to be the creature of whoever happens to be Chancellor.
0:28:09 > 0:28:12What was it he said that particularly offended you?
0:28:12 > 0:28:15I mean, he said the risk to leave could possibly include a technical
0:28:15 > 0:28:16recession, didn't he?
0:28:16 > 0:28:19That's right.
0:28:19 > 0:28:21He warned that there would be a technical recession,
0:28:21 > 0:28:22but that is a recession.
0:28:22 > 0:28:25A technical recession isn't a recession, is it, actually?
0:28:25 > 0:28:34It's a temporary recession, I think, isn't it?
0:28:34 > 0:28:37All recessions have so far been temporary in the whole of history.
0:28:37 > 0:28:38Well, it depends on the timescale.
0:28:38 > 0:28:40A technical recession is two quarters of GDP declining.
0:28:40 > 0:28:42He said that, he was completely wrong.
0:28:42 > 0:28:45The Treasury was worse, it said there would be
0:28:45 > 0:28:48between 500,000 and 800,000 jobs lost purely on a vote to leave,
0:28:48 > 0:28:49not actually anything happening.
0:28:49 > 0:28:50And the BBC?
0:28:50 > 0:28:53Dear Old Auntie.
0:28:53 > 0:28:56The BBC, how many times have we heard "in spite of Brexit?"
0:28:56 > 0:28:59In spite of Brexit, a record three million jobs have
0:28:59 > 0:29:03been created since 2010.
0:29:03 > 0:29:05In spite of Brexit, unemployment is at its lowest level since 1975.
0:29:05 > 0:29:06What kind of jobs?
0:29:06 > 0:29:09In spite of Brexit, England defeated the West Indies at Lords.
0:29:09 > 0:29:13I mean it is...
0:29:13 > 0:29:15APPLAUSE
0:29:15 > 0:29:16..it is again and again.
0:29:16 > 0:29:22Sorry, can you actually specify an occasion when you've heard that?
0:29:22 > 0:29:24You say that, but have you got a quotation?
0:29:24 > 0:29:27I've got some other quotations which I was going to get on to.
0:29:27 > 0:29:29Have you got a quotation saying, "in spite of Brexit?"
0:29:29 > 0:29:31Well, you just have to listen to the news.
0:29:31 > 0:29:33That's a generalisation, have you got a specific...
0:29:33 > 0:29:34Well, no.
0:29:34 > 0:29:37I think anyone who has listened to the news recently
0:29:37 > 0:29:39has heard the "in spite of Brexit" terminology.
0:29:39 > 0:29:40Are you sure?
0:29:40 > 0:29:41I think the audience knows that.
0:29:41 > 0:29:42Yes.
0:29:42 > 0:29:43Of course they have.
0:29:43 > 0:29:45Yes, the audience seems to agree.
0:29:45 > 0:29:46No, they're shaking their heads there.
0:29:46 > 0:29:49You've found one!
0:29:49 > 0:29:51The Sun carried out a survey...
0:29:51 > 0:29:53Debate's over!
0:29:53 > 0:29:55This is quite important because the Andrew Marr Show has
0:29:55 > 0:30:00had 84% of its people on being anti-Brexit.
0:30:00 > 0:30:05129 interviewees against, 33 in favour.
0:30:05 > 0:30:08The balance of the BBC has been against.
0:30:08 > 0:30:10And actually, I disagree with something Alex Salmond said.
0:30:10 > 0:30:13I think during the referendum campaign the BBC behaved very well
0:30:13 > 0:30:16and tried extremely hard to be independent.
0:30:16 > 0:30:20It got such a shock when we voted to leave that since then I think it
0:30:20 > 0:30:22has behaved very badly.
0:30:22 > 0:30:27And I think that the situation in terms of negotiations is exactly
0:30:27 > 0:30:29what you would expect.
0:30:29 > 0:30:32We have the two-year time limit, which if we hadn't exercised Article
0:30:32 > 0:30:3450, the vote would simply not have been implemented.
0:30:34 > 0:30:37The government had to exercise Article 50 and is now
0:30:37 > 0:30:38getting on with it.
0:30:38 > 0:30:39And of course it's an argument.
0:30:39 > 0:30:40That's the nature of the negotiation.
0:30:40 > 0:30:45The person there on the left, and then I will come to you, Germaine.
0:30:45 > 0:30:48You say about the Bank of England, Mark Carney getting involved,
0:30:48 > 0:30:50and how he shouldn't be involved.
0:30:50 > 0:30:51But actually he wouldn't get
0:30:51 > 0:30:53involved in a general election because if we're not
0:30:53 > 0:30:55happy with a government, five years from now
0:30:55 > 0:30:56we can vote them out.
0:30:56 > 0:30:58With Brexit, this is an entire lifetime.
0:30:58 > 0:31:01It's going to take a lifetime to fix this situation, however it goes.
0:31:01 > 0:31:04Which makes it even more important that he should have been impartial.
0:31:04 > 0:31:08And the man up there.
0:31:08 > 0:31:10With respect, I think the BBC have been biased against Brexit.
0:31:10 > 0:31:14I think that during the referendum campaign what you often did
0:31:14 > 0:31:18was you got someone very intelligent to speak on behalf of Remain
0:31:18 > 0:31:20and you managed to get someone less intelligent
0:31:20 > 0:31:22to speak on behalf of Leave.
0:31:22 > 0:31:24I personally believe...
0:31:24 > 0:31:28LAUGHTER
0:31:28 > 0:31:29Not you, Jacob!
0:31:29 > 0:31:36Germaine Greer.
0:31:36 > 0:31:39Well, it's a funny old world, as Mrs Thatcher said.
0:31:39 > 0:31:42We don't really like bankers very much.
0:31:42 > 0:31:44They seem to have got us into a terrible mess,
0:31:44 > 0:31:48and by way of getting us out of it, they got us to pay for it,
0:31:48 > 0:31:50and it's going on like this.
0:31:50 > 0:31:52We don't seem to have enough money to do any thing.
0:31:52 > 0:31:56But the crowning glory comes when we can't find a citizen to run
0:31:56 > 0:31:58the bloody Bank of England, we have to go to Canada.
0:31:58 > 0:32:00Now, why did we do that?
0:32:00 > 0:32:02Why didn't you get the job?
0:32:02 > 0:32:05LAUGHTER
0:32:05 > 0:32:07As the gentleman at the back said, I'm not intelligent enough.
0:32:07 > 0:32:11LAUGHTER
0:32:11 > 0:32:12I said you are intelligent.
0:32:12 > 0:32:17Camilla Tominey.
0:32:17 > 0:32:20On Mark Carney, I think the main criticism is he got his economic
0:32:20 > 0:32:21forecasting on Brexit wrong.
0:32:21 > 0:32:23He talked about the recession, regardless of whether it was
0:32:23 > 0:32:25technical or actual, and in fact there's been five
0:32:25 > 0:32:29consecutive periods of growth.
0:32:29 > 0:32:32I think growth is up 1.9%, which was not what the Project Fear
0:32:32 > 0:32:33brigade were predicting.
0:32:33 > 0:32:36On Brexit in general, BBC bias, I think there's two Brexiters
0:32:36 > 0:32:38on this panel and three Remainers.
0:32:38 > 0:32:40I don't know whether you've had a panel that's been majority
0:32:40 > 0:32:45Brexiters, have you, David?
0:32:45 > 0:32:46We have.
0:32:46 > 0:32:47How about the average intelligence?
0:32:47 > 0:32:49Average intelligence, I can't comment on at all,
0:32:49 > 0:32:51being a lowly journalist, rather than a lofty politician.
0:32:51 > 0:32:54But I would suggest that actually when we speak to our readers on both
0:32:54 > 0:32:57sides of the democratic divide, mostly people just say,
0:32:57 > 0:32:58"Will you get on with it.
0:32:58 > 0:33:01"Just get on with Brexit.
0:33:01 > 0:33:04"Stop posturing, stop fighting between yourselves".
0:33:04 > 0:33:08APPLAUSE
0:33:08 > 0:33:11The notion of it being a minority as well, overwhelmingly
0:33:11 > 0:33:13in Parliament people voted to have the referendum
0:33:13 > 0:33:15in the first place.
0:33:15 > 0:33:17Overwhelmingly in Parliament, people voted to trigger Article 50.
0:33:17 > 0:33:18Overwhelmingly.
0:33:18 > 0:33:2180% or more of the electorate voted for parties that supported Brexit.
0:33:21 > 0:33:27So just do it.
0:33:27 > 0:33:31But the government has to just do it, not Mark Carney and not the BBC.
0:33:31 > 0:33:33It's not just the government, is it, Shami?
0:33:33 > 0:33:35It's also the EU, who, despite this conciliatory offer
0:33:35 > 0:33:37from the Florence speech are digging in their heels.
0:33:37 > 0:33:39Even though a deal for them is mutually beneficial.
0:33:39 > 0:33:42This is what is lost in a lot of the rhetoric.
0:33:42 > 0:33:44Do the German car industry seriously want to shoot themselves
0:33:44 > 0:33:47in their own feet by not having a free-trade agreement with the UK?
0:33:47 > 0:33:51That would cost the German car industry alone 29,000 jobs.
0:33:51 > 0:33:58APPLAUSE
0:33:58 > 0:34:00The trouble is, the Remain argument, I'm afraid, it fails,
0:34:00 > 0:34:03because everybody knows deep down that if we do get this cake
0:34:03 > 0:34:06and eat it scenario, we can have free trade with Europe
0:34:06 > 0:34:09and we can have free trade with the rest of the world.
0:34:09 > 0:34:10That is infinitely better.
0:34:10 > 0:34:12But it's your Chancellor of the Exchequer, isn't it,
0:34:12 > 0:34:15who says a cloud of uncertainty over the current negotiations acts
0:34:15 > 0:34:18as a dampener on the economy?
0:34:18 > 0:34:19This is such an opportunity.
0:34:19 > 0:34:22When we leave, we can set our own tariffs.
0:34:22 > 0:34:24Tariffs set at the European level make food, clothing
0:34:24 > 0:34:26and footwear more expensive.
0:34:26 > 0:34:28They are the highest proportion of the poorest
0:34:28 > 0:34:30in society's expenditure.
0:34:30 > 0:34:34If we can get rid of those tariffs, we help the worst off in society.
0:34:34 > 0:34:37That is a real benefit.
0:34:37 > 0:34:40So why does your Chancellor of the Exchequer not accept this
0:34:40 > 0:34:40and sound so gloomy?
0:34:40 > 0:34:43Because all the Treasury forecasts assume that instead of cutting
0:34:43 > 0:34:46tariffs on the rest of the world, we raise tariffs against the EU.
0:34:46 > 0:34:48That is completely insane.
0:34:48 > 0:34:50The Treasury's forecasts are even worse than the Bank of England.
0:34:50 > 0:34:54Yes, you, sir.
0:34:54 > 0:34:57Can I just say to Mr Salmond, you are being deliberately disingenuous.
0:34:57 > 0:35:00You say we should have gone to the EU and sorted something out
0:35:00 > 0:35:02before we activated Article 50.
0:35:02 > 0:35:05You know as well as I do that we weren't in a position
0:35:05 > 0:35:06to negotiate until Article 50 was activated.
0:35:06 > 0:35:07Yes.
0:35:07 > 0:35:10I think at that stage, this is earlier this year,
0:35:10 > 0:35:12the EU were desperate to have Article 50 invoked.
0:35:12 > 0:35:14There's no reason for the government to do it.
0:35:14 > 0:35:16The government should not have invoked Article 50
0:35:16 > 0:35:18until the transitional period was agreed.
0:35:18 > 0:35:20But we couldn't do anything with Europe until we
0:35:20 > 0:35:21activated Article 50.
0:35:21 > 0:35:23It's like who blinks first.
0:35:23 > 0:35:25And unfortunately it was the UK Government.
0:35:25 > 0:35:26Why did they do it?
0:35:26 > 0:35:29They didn't have to invoke Article 50.
0:35:29 > 0:35:30All right.
0:35:30 > 0:35:32I voted to trigger Article 50.
0:35:32 > 0:35:35They voted precisely for that reason.
0:35:35 > 0:35:37Let's not go back over that ground.
0:35:37 > 0:35:39Let's go to another subject from Alice Moore.
0:35:39 > 0:35:41Your question, please.
0:35:41 > 0:35:45Who should be held accountable for low and decreasing numbers
0:35:45 > 0:35:48of poor and non-white students at Oxford and Cambridge?
0:35:48 > 0:35:49Who should be held responsible?
0:35:49 > 0:35:52We got the figures the other day, decreasing numbers of poor
0:35:52 > 0:35:56and non-white students at Oxford and Cambridge.
0:35:56 > 0:35:58Germaine Greer.
0:35:58 > 0:36:02This is a really difficult question.
0:36:02 > 0:36:05I mean, the very suggestion that we've had to heed,
0:36:05 > 0:36:09that we could lower the points required at A level in order
0:36:09 > 0:36:12to allow poorer students to attend the elite universities is insulting
0:36:12 > 0:36:18to them, apart from anything else.
0:36:18 > 0:36:20That is not the problem there.
0:36:20 > 0:36:23Part of the problem is that these universities are not actually
0:36:23 > 0:36:27particularly merciful to people who come from a different social
0:36:27 > 0:36:30class to the middle-class that they are at ease with.
0:36:30 > 0:36:36I mean, we've all heard the stories of the girl who came to Newnham
0:36:36 > 0:36:40who didn't know how to sit in the bath.
0:36:40 > 0:36:43She sat with her back at the tap end and everybody sneered
0:36:43 > 0:36:46at her because she didn't have a bath at home.
0:36:46 > 0:36:50They didn't go skiing on their holidays, she had never
0:36:50 > 0:36:52been abroad, and all that sort of thing.
0:36:52 > 0:36:53They are very snobbish places.
0:36:53 > 0:36:55But you can still crack it.
0:36:55 > 0:36:58I mean, our real problem here, I think, is that we don't have
0:36:58 > 0:37:02enough scholarships.
0:37:02 > 0:37:05For the last 40 years, when I was still a fellow
0:37:05 > 0:37:06at Newnham, I was saying,
0:37:06 > 0:37:08"There's only one way we'll get the right students".
0:37:08 > 0:37:11We have to do what we have to do with everything else.
0:37:11 > 0:37:12We have to buy them.
0:37:12 > 0:37:15And we have to give them a deal that is wonderful,
0:37:15 > 0:37:17where their fees are paid, they are well housed,
0:37:17 > 0:37:20have travel allowances, they have books, and we actually get
0:37:20 > 0:37:21the best out of them.
0:37:21 > 0:37:23Instead, they struggle.
0:37:23 > 0:37:26They struggle against trying to read the encoded social
0:37:26 > 0:37:29language of the institution.
0:37:29 > 0:37:32And the institution is probably not the thing you think it is.
0:37:32 > 0:37:34You know, Cambridge is, what, the second research
0:37:34 > 0:37:38university in the world?
0:37:38 > 0:37:42But that doesn't reflect the undergraduate body at all.
0:37:42 > 0:37:44And it certainly doesn't reflect the teaching.
0:37:44 > 0:37:48One of the things that drives me crazy is when you go to university,
0:37:48 > 0:37:51you don't get taught by the people you've heard about who teach
0:37:51 > 0:37:52at that university.
0:37:52 > 0:37:53You get taught by a graduate student.
0:37:53 > 0:37:55This is not the deal.
0:37:55 > 0:37:57This doesn't justify the enormous amount of money that we have
0:37:57 > 0:38:01to spend on the Russell Group.
0:38:01 > 0:38:02There's one other thing.
0:38:02 > 0:38:04Is it the case that some secondary, state secondary schools
0:38:04 > 0:38:07are pessimistic about getting their pupils into the Russell Group
0:38:07 > 0:38:12universities and Oxford and Cambridge, and don't actually
0:38:12 > 0:38:15push them, don't offer them that as an opportunity,
0:38:15 > 0:38:17but say, that's not for you, for the reasons
0:38:17 > 0:38:20you've been describing.
0:38:20 > 0:38:21Look, that may be the case.
0:38:21 > 0:38:24But I think they're also quite likely to know that the students
0:38:24 > 0:38:26in question would be happier somewhere else.
0:38:26 > 0:38:29There are other universities that are more encouraging.
0:38:29 > 0:38:33Cambridge can be profoundly dismissive.
0:38:33 > 0:38:36If you haven't read the right books, if your family doesn't have books
0:38:36 > 0:38:39in the house and so forth, you can gradually feel that
0:38:39 > 0:38:44you are permanently disadvantaged.
0:38:44 > 0:38:46And that is true now, is it, still true now?
0:38:46 > 0:38:49Well, I haven't taught at Cambridge for a while and I didn't teach
0:38:49 > 0:38:50that way when I did.
0:38:50 > 0:38:52But I was pretty well aware of it.
0:38:52 > 0:38:55What's happening now, I think if we did have a healthy
0:38:55 > 0:38:58scholarship system, where students could actually correctly
0:38:58 > 0:39:03choose the university...
0:39:03 > 0:39:06Now, they're not all going to be happy doing the Tripos.
0:39:06 > 0:39:08And the Tripos' usefulness could be challenged.
0:39:08 > 0:39:12There are other things that might be much more worthy.
0:39:12 > 0:39:18Camilla Tominey.
0:39:18 > 0:39:21I think, as well, the problem starts at primary and secondary education.
0:39:21 > 0:39:23We are in a two-tier system.
0:39:23 > 0:39:25We don't have grammar schools any more but we have
0:39:25 > 0:39:28selective schools where, really, you can only get your children
0:39:28 > 0:39:29in if you tutor them.
0:39:29 > 0:39:30And that costs money.
0:39:30 > 0:39:32And that then means that poorer families who have got bright
0:39:32 > 0:39:35kids can't get them in, because they haven't had somebody
0:39:35 > 0:39:38who they are paying every Sunday morning to teach their children
0:39:38 > 0:39:40verbal and nonverbal reasoning.
0:39:40 > 0:39:44Whether that's a skill that judges children on their academic ability
0:39:44 > 0:39:46or not is up to teachers to decide.
0:39:46 > 0:39:50I equally think as well, when it comes to bursaries,
0:39:50 > 0:39:53that a lot of poorer families just don't think that's for them.
0:39:53 > 0:39:55Interestingly, now that the grammar schools revolution has been
0:39:55 > 0:39:57put on the back burner, free schools are having a lot
0:39:57 > 0:39:59of success in deprived areas.
0:39:59 > 0:40:02During the Tory party conference I spoke to Toby Young,
0:40:02 > 0:40:04who has obviously been heavily involved in that movement.
0:40:04 > 0:40:07And at the school in Newham, which was started seven years ago,
0:40:07 > 0:40:09so it's now coming to fruition and some of these children
0:40:09 > 0:40:12are making university applications, 15 of these kids have
0:40:12 > 0:40:15got into Oxbridge.
0:40:15 > 0:40:17That would have been unthinkable with the previous system
0:40:17 > 0:40:18and without this free school.
0:40:18 > 0:40:24So clearly, more needs to be done.
0:40:24 > 0:40:25You.
0:40:25 > 0:40:27I disagree that it's the secondary school,
0:40:27 > 0:40:30because I went to a state secondary school and they, if anything,
0:40:30 > 0:40:33encouraged you to apply to go to the higher universities.
0:40:33 > 0:40:36They pushed you towards that, and I managed to get good results
0:40:36 > 0:40:39at my GCSEs and that's not putting me off trying to apply
0:40:39 > 0:40:42to Oxford or Cambridge.
0:40:42 > 0:40:44And you're doing that now, are you?
0:40:44 > 0:40:46I will next year be applying to those universities.
0:40:46 > 0:40:48Alex Salmond.
0:40:48 > 0:40:50I wish the young lady every success.
0:40:50 > 0:40:52But I think the responsibility does lie with Oxbridge.
0:40:52 > 0:40:56If you have it just on qualifications, most state school
0:40:56 > 0:40:59pupils will be at a disadvantage compared to most private school
0:40:59 > 0:41:04pupils, because public schools in England will teach not just
0:41:04 > 0:41:08for the exams, but they will teach for the entrance requirements.
0:41:08 > 0:41:10And therefore, if it's only grade against grade,
0:41:10 > 0:41:13you'll get the situation of a substantial social disparity.
0:41:13 > 0:41:17There's also a responsibility for the government, in fees
0:41:17 > 0:41:20which are totally and utterly outrageous in England,
0:41:20 > 0:41:24being a big disincentive for lower-income families
0:41:24 > 0:41:25than for higher income families, obviously.
0:41:25 > 0:41:32Being 40, 50, £60,000 in debt is a big disincentive,
0:41:32 > 0:41:34and you should do something about English politicians who try
0:41:34 > 0:41:37to retain such an unequal system.
0:41:37 > 0:41:40But lastly, because we still have a problem in Scotland with,
0:41:40 > 0:41:42like Saint Andrews, for example, not on a racial basis
0:41:42 > 0:41:46but on a working class basis.
0:41:46 > 0:41:49I've come to the conclusion that the only way you can actually
0:41:49 > 0:41:51tackle this and do it so as people don't say,
0:41:51 > 0:41:55"I had so many As and I didn't get in when someone else got
0:41:55 > 0:41:58"in with lower grades", is to have a system of a certain
0:41:58 > 0:41:59number of entries outwith the examination system.
0:41:59 > 0:42:02I think people should qualify through the Duke
0:42:02 > 0:42:05of Edinburgh award scheme, through voluntary work,
0:42:05 > 0:42:07something like that.
0:42:07 > 0:42:10They should be taken to these universities for a summer school,
0:42:10 > 0:42:13over a period of perhaps six weeks, assessed over that period,
0:42:13 > 0:42:16and that could be a form of entry, along with the scholarship system
0:42:16 > 0:42:22Germaine said.
0:42:22 > 0:42:25And the reason I hope that such a system might be
0:42:25 > 0:42:27introduced in Scotland, and I would commend such
0:42:27 > 0:42:30a system for Oxbridge to try and have the social diversity
0:42:30 > 0:42:33that this nation of England should demand from its top universities.
0:42:33 > 0:42:42APPLAUSE
0:42:43 > 0:42:44What do you think?
0:42:44 > 0:42:47As a former teacher, I agree with the young lady that
0:42:47 > 0:42:49it's not about poverty of aspirations at schools at all.
0:42:49 > 0:42:52We encourage our students to aim as highly as they can.
0:42:52 > 0:42:54I think what Germaine said about the social playing field,
0:42:54 > 0:42:56it's completely uneven.
0:42:56 > 0:42:59If you don't see anyone around you, if you don't have anyone
0:42:59 > 0:43:01in your family that's been to these kind of places, it's
0:43:01 > 0:43:03just such an unfamiliar, the culture and expectations
0:43:03 > 0:43:07so unfamiliar to you and I think it's off-putting.
0:43:07 > 0:43:09So what do you think should be done?
0:43:09 > 0:43:11It's not my job to decide.
0:43:11 > 0:43:15Shami Chakrabarti, what do you think should be done?
0:43:15 > 0:43:18I think there is a greater responsibility on the so-called
0:43:18 > 0:43:20elite universities to demonstrate that they are for everyone,
0:43:20 > 0:43:24and they need to take more positive steps.
0:43:24 > 0:43:27The sorts of things you have been mooting.
0:43:27 > 0:43:28But they should be actively recruiting.
0:43:28 > 0:43:32They should be actively sending staff and recruiters and people
0:43:32 > 0:43:36to go and speak in state schools, in poorer parts of the country,
0:43:36 > 0:43:39to try and bust this idea that you're not welcome here.
0:43:39 > 0:43:42But I do think that the government has responsibility, too.
0:43:42 > 0:43:45I went to the London School of Economics in the late 80s
0:43:45 > 0:43:48and did a law degree, without which I wouldn't
0:43:48 > 0:43:50be here tonight.
0:43:50 > 0:43:54My parents did not have any money, but I had a full maintenance grant
0:43:54 > 0:43:57and zero tuition fees.
0:43:57 > 0:44:02That made a world of difference to me in my life chances.
0:44:02 > 0:44:06Would I take on the kind of debt that would be required for me
0:44:06 > 0:44:08to have that same education today, knowing that my parents
0:44:08 > 0:44:10couldn't afford to help?
0:44:10 > 0:44:12I'm not convinced that I would.
0:44:12 > 0:44:16So I think government has responsibility, and these so-called
0:44:16 > 0:44:17elite universities have a massive responsibility and
0:44:17 > 0:44:22ethical duty as well.
0:44:22 > 0:44:30APPLAUSE
0:44:30 > 0:44:32Yes, the woman there in the fourth row from the front.
0:44:32 > 0:44:33Four from the front.
0:44:33 > 0:44:37I think that equality is such a complex issue and one of the main
0:44:37 > 0:44:39things we need to focus on is whether we are talking
0:44:39 > 0:44:41about equality of outcome or equality of opportunity.
0:44:41 > 0:44:43Because equality of opportunity won't necessarily produce
0:44:43 > 0:44:46equality of outcome.
0:44:46 > 0:44:50So for example, if you have, if you are striving for equality
0:44:50 > 0:44:55of outcome, if you have 50% women, 50% men, but equality of opportunity
0:44:55 > 0:44:59means everyone gets the same starting position but it doesn't
0:44:59 > 0:45:00mean they'll all reach the same place.
0:45:00 > 0:45:03So it's much more complex than saying we should
0:45:03 > 0:45:05strive for equality.
0:45:05 > 0:45:11You need to really think about what equality means.
0:45:11 > 0:45:12APPLAUSE
0:45:12 > 0:45:14Yes.
0:45:14 > 0:45:16But the question was about the numbers going of poor
0:45:16 > 0:45:18and non-white students.
0:45:18 > 0:45:20Jacob Rees-Mogg.
0:45:20 > 0:45:23Well, I actually agree with what the lady has just said.
0:45:23 > 0:45:26I think that you want to have an equality of opportunity,
0:45:26 > 0:45:29but that may mean that you need to help people to get that
0:45:29 > 0:45:39opportunity in the first place.
0:45:39 > 0:45:41It's worth noting on loans, student loans, they have actually
0:45:41 > 0:45:44led to a very large increase in the number of people
0:45:44 > 0:45:46going to university from the poorest decile of income.
0:45:46 > 0:45:48And that's quite interesting because it's not necessarily
0:45:48 > 0:45:50what you would expect, but it's encouraged the poorest
0:45:50 > 0:45:51to go to university.
0:45:51 > 0:45:54I very much agree with Jermaine Greer that I think having
0:45:54 > 0:45:58bursaries and scholarships, so that people will really
0:45:58 > 0:46:05be incentivized to go through university and I think,
0:46:05 > 0:46:08dare I say it, that people who've had the good fortune that I've had
0:46:08 > 0:46:11and go to schools like Eton, where I was with your son,
0:46:11 > 0:46:13as I think many people know.
0:46:13 > 0:46:16When you've had that great advantage, it is not unreasonable
0:46:16 > 0:46:19for the people examining you when you get to Oxford
0:46:19 > 0:46:22and Cambridge to recognise that you have had every possible
0:46:22 > 0:46:29advantage and somebody who hasn't had so many advantages,
0:46:29 > 0:46:33but who may have well done less well in the exam, may
0:46:33 > 0:46:38actually be cleverer and more able and I think it's
0:46:38 > 0:46:41perfectly fair to maintain equality of opportunity by recognising
0:46:41 > 0:46:43that there have been inequalities in the early stages.
0:46:43 > 0:46:46But there a distinction, isn't there, between the number of people,
0:46:46 > 0:46:48the percentage of people from the lowest financial
0:46:48 > 0:46:50decile, economic decile, going to university and the numbers
0:46:50 > 0:46:51going to Oxford and Cambridge.
0:46:51 > 0:46:52That's absolutely true.
0:46:52 > 0:46:55Is it important, in your view, that the entry to Oxford
0:46:55 > 0:46:58and Cambridge should be opening up in the same way as all
0:46:58 > 0:46:59the other universities?
0:46:59 > 0:47:00Absolutely.
0:47:00 > 0:47:02It's very important that Oxford and Cambridge maintain their world
0:47:02 > 0:47:06beating standard and therefore they should not take quotas,
0:47:06 > 0:47:09but what they should do is make it as easy as possible for clever
0:47:09 > 0:47:12people from disadvantaged backgrounds to get in
0:47:12 > 0:47:15and going out to schools.
0:47:15 > 0:47:24It's brilliant to hear that schools are encouraging people to apply
0:47:24 > 0:47:26because certainly anecdotally one's heard the reverse and that
0:47:26 > 0:47:28some pupils are told, don't try for Oxford and Cambridge,
0:47:28 > 0:47:29it won't suit you.
0:47:29 > 0:47:30That really shouldn't happen.
0:47:30 > 0:47:32That should be strongly discouraged and schools should work
0:47:32 > 0:47:35with the universities to encourage bright people to go.
0:47:35 > 0:47:37Not just because that's the right thing to do for the individuals,
0:47:37 > 0:47:39but it's also very good for the country.
0:47:39 > 0:47:42That if our brightest people get the best education,
0:47:42 > 0:47:44that is going to be very good for the country over
0:47:44 > 0:47:45the next generation.
0:47:45 > 0:47:49Be able to have a UK Bank of England bloke to run the Bank.
0:47:49 > 0:47:51I'm just muttering to myself.
0:47:51 > 0:47:53You in the black dress there.
0:47:53 > 0:47:54Yes you, on the gangway.
0:47:54 > 0:47:55The woman on the gangway.
0:47:55 > 0:47:56Come on!
0:47:56 > 0:47:59There, thank you.
0:47:59 > 0:48:03But if we only have a small tokenistic amount of places opened
0:48:03 > 0:48:07up, the culture and the support that's available to them
0:48:07 > 0:48:10when they arrive at Oxford and and maybe are are mixing
0:48:10 > 0:48:13with the elitists from the public schools, it gives that impression
0:48:13 > 0:48:15of them feeling different and as if they're
0:48:15 > 0:48:18being a worthy cause.
0:48:18 > 0:48:21We need to really challenge the culture and the support in these
0:48:21 > 0:48:24universities that make it an accepting and welcoming
0:48:24 > 0:48:26place for a more diverse range of students to go.
0:48:26 > 0:48:27OK.
0:48:27 > 0:48:29The woman behind you, in the row behind there.
0:48:29 > 0:48:32Yes.
0:48:32 > 0:48:34I'd like to suggest a civilian form of national
0:48:34 > 0:48:39service for 18-year-olds.
0:48:39 > 0:48:42About a third of the time the work that they would do would be
0:48:42 > 0:48:46some form of education, they would also do work and sport
0:48:46 > 0:48:50and the people in charge of national service would be able to assess.
0:48:50 > 0:48:52I loved what Alex suggested about other routes besides
0:48:52 > 0:48:55educational qualifications.
0:48:55 > 0:48:58That would assess character, leadership and it would also
0:48:58 > 0:49:00have people of different classes mixing together.
0:49:00 > 0:49:01So compulsory national service?
0:49:01 > 0:49:04Yes.
0:49:04 > 0:49:06Can you go along the row to the second person
0:49:06 > 0:49:09from the end there.
0:49:09 > 0:49:11You, yes.
0:49:11 > 0:49:14I think we need to stop skirting around the issue, really.
0:49:14 > 0:49:17If you're a child and your in a class of 34 students,
0:49:17 > 0:49:19your TA is no longer there because of budget cuts,
0:49:19 > 0:49:22how are you going to have the same opportunities, the same quality
0:49:22 > 0:49:25of teaching as those in private schools in a class of ten?
0:49:25 > 0:49:26Absolutely.
0:49:26 > 0:49:27OK.
0:49:27 > 0:49:30APPLAUSE
0:49:30 > 0:49:33Yes, the woman here.
0:49:33 > 0:49:36Actually, I think that already Oxford is doing a lot of the things
0:49:36 > 0:49:41that Alex Salmond mentioned.
0:49:41 > 0:49:43There is such a thing called contextual admissions,
0:49:43 > 0:49:47where things are taken into account such as the sort of school one went
0:49:47 > 0:49:52to and therefore how likely it is that one would have got good
0:49:52 > 0:49:55A-levels and also I feel, and I work here at the University
0:49:55 > 0:49:58of Portsmouth, that it is a case that students should be choosing
0:49:58 > 0:50:08the university that gives them the education that they need,
0:50:08 > 0:50:11and here a lot of that is applied real-life professional practice.
0:50:11 > 0:50:12Last word from you.
0:50:12 > 0:50:13Yes.
0:50:13 > 0:50:16I agree with the questioner that it's a societal problem rather
0:50:16 > 0:50:17than an elitist problem.
0:50:17 > 0:50:21My father was actually the admissions tutor
0:50:21 > 0:50:24at St Peter's College, Oxford, when he retired and the bain
0:50:24 > 0:50:33of his life was quotas for different ethnic minority students.
0:50:33 > 0:50:40He frequently told me that he had to choose less academically able
0:50:40 > 0:50:43students just because of the places and the backgrounds that they come
0:50:43 > 0:50:47from and, at the end of the day, Oxford and Cambridge are centres
0:50:47 > 0:50:49of academic excellence, and that should be
0:50:49 > 0:50:50championed above...
0:50:50 > 0:50:52Can I give you a case study.
0:50:52 > 0:50:55Glasgow University and St Andrews University,
0:50:55 > 0:50:57I've an interest in both, I'm a doctor of Glasgow University,
0:50:57 > 0:51:00I was a student at St Andrews.
0:51:00 > 0:51:02Now they're both highly rated, internationally orientated
0:51:02 > 0:51:05universities, but Glasgow has a huge social mix in its student
0:51:05 > 0:51:10population, St Andrews doesn't.
0:51:10 > 0:51:13I think the idea that you maintain excellence by having a fairly
0:51:13 > 0:51:14exclusive social mix is entirely wrong headed.
0:51:14 > 0:51:15It's entirely mistaken.
0:51:15 > 0:51:18Absolutely.
0:51:18 > 0:51:23I think these two examples of two outstanding universities,
0:51:23 > 0:51:26but one of which I think fulfils its duty to the population
0:51:26 > 0:51:29as a whole by educating people across the social spectrum
0:51:29 > 0:51:30and the other, I'm afraid, does not.
0:51:30 > 0:51:33Quite.
0:51:33 > 0:51:34APPLAUSE
0:51:34 > 0:51:36OK, very briefly, very briefly.
0:51:36 > 0:51:41I disagree entirely with that.
0:51:41 > 0:51:43At the end of the day, Glasgow isn't as sought
0:51:43 > 0:51:45after a place as St Andrews.
0:51:45 > 0:51:47All right, well...
0:51:47 > 0:51:51I wouldn't go down that road with him here!
0:51:51 > 0:51:53OK, I think we'll leave it.
0:51:53 > 0:51:56Thank you for the point there.
0:51:56 > 0:51:59We will be in Scotland next week, you can discuss it then.
0:51:59 > 0:52:06Very, very brief.
0:52:06 > 0:52:12Jermaine, very brief if you would.
0:52:12 > 0:52:14I'd just like to make one simple point.
0:52:14 > 0:52:18I have taught all my life and I've taught people who came from the same
0:52:18 > 0:52:20sort of background that I did for whom, for example, Cambridge
0:52:20 > 0:52:21was a terrible environment.
0:52:21 > 0:52:22They were absolutely miserable.
0:52:22 > 0:52:25The last thing you'd want to do is waste those precious three years
0:52:25 > 0:52:28of a young person's life by having them being miserable
0:52:28 > 0:52:30at a place like Cambridge.
0:52:30 > 0:52:33What used to happen is that they would identify with the town kids.
0:52:33 > 0:52:39They would hang out with the bikies, they would get into trouble
0:52:39 > 0:52:41and the wastage amongst that precious group of
0:52:41 > 0:52:45students was very high.
0:52:45 > 0:52:47Now, we shouldn't be supposing we can drop them into that rather
0:52:47 > 0:52:57complicated social situation and they will have the skills
0:52:57 > 0:53:01to avoid damage because I think the damage, in at least two
0:53:01 > 0:53:03cases that I know of, both brilliant young woman,
0:53:03 > 0:53:05they abandoned their education altogether, and I can't tell
0:53:05 > 0:53:06you what became of them.
0:53:06 > 0:53:07All right, thank you.
0:53:07 > 0:53:10Paul Pritchard, let's have a last question from you.
0:53:10 > 0:53:11Should congestion charging be introduced in all cities
0:53:11 > 0:53:19to improve air quality?
0:53:19 > 0:53:21Well, London has now introduced a congestion charge
0:53:21 > 0:53:24of £10 for old vehicles, old diesel vehicles and all that.
0:53:24 > 0:53:26Oxford is suggesting clearing its centre for cars completely
0:53:26 > 0:53:27and just having electric cars.
0:53:27 > 0:53:29Should congestion charging, this is our question
0:53:29 > 0:53:31about the environment, which we're duty-bound to do.
0:53:31 > 0:53:35Camilla Tominey, what do you think?
0:53:35 > 0:53:38Well, I drive a diesel, so I'm now persona non grata...
0:53:38 > 0:53:39Shame on you.
0:53:39 > 0:53:41..in the environmental world.
0:53:41 > 0:53:46Having been encouraged to buy a diesel of course
0:53:46 > 0:53:49because I was told that it was more fuel efficient and that it was
0:53:49 > 0:53:51better for the environment until all of that scientific
0:53:51 > 0:53:54evidence that was presented by Labour was roundly debunked.
0:53:54 > 0:54:01APPLAUSE
0:54:01 > 0:54:07So now I'm saddled with a diesel that I don't
0:54:07 > 0:54:10have to pay the T-charge for because it's a post-2006 car.
0:54:10 > 0:54:13I don't want to scrap it because it's a good car and I think
0:54:13 > 0:54:14that would be added wastage.
0:54:14 > 0:54:18I'm interested in buying a hybrid or an electric car and I want to see
0:54:18 > 0:54:20the technology come on, but they are very expensive and I'm
0:54:20 > 0:54:23not really in the market to replace my perfectly decent car.
0:54:23 > 0:54:25What's your answer to the question?
0:54:25 > 0:54:26I mean, your personal history is fascinating,
0:54:26 > 0:54:28but what is the answer to the question?
0:54:28 > 0:54:29Thank you, David.
0:54:29 > 0:54:30APPLAUSE
0:54:30 > 0:54:34Well, we do have to take a personal issue on some of these questions
0:54:34 > 0:54:36because as a diesel driver it does make a difference.
0:54:36 > 0:54:38My answer to the question is this.
0:54:38 > 0:54:41If transport links are good enough, there should be no reason why
0:54:41 > 0:54:43we need as ordinary citizens to drive into cities.
0:54:43 > 0:54:46However, if you're white van man or a courier or a delivery driver,
0:54:46 > 0:54:48I don't see why you should be penalised for doing your
0:54:48 > 0:54:50job in a town centre.
0:54:50 > 0:54:51APPLAUSE
0:54:51 > 0:54:53We only have two or three minutes left.
0:54:53 > 0:54:54Jacob Rees-Mogg.
0:54:54 > 0:54:56OK.
0:54:56 > 0:54:58In London, the congestion is worse even though there are fewer cars
0:54:58 > 0:55:01on the road and that's because they've narrowed half
0:55:01 > 0:55:02the road and you can't get anywhere.
0:55:02 > 0:55:05I don't believe that government should make people's lives more
0:55:05 > 0:55:09difficult and diesel is one of the real scandals of government
0:55:09 > 0:55:12policy of the last 20 years.
0:55:12 > 0:55:14As Camilla was saying, people were encouraged to buy
0:55:14 > 0:55:16diesels because of worries about carbon dioxide,
0:55:16 > 0:55:17ignoring the nitrous oxides
0:55:17 > 0:55:19and the particulates from diesel, which have killed people.
0:55:19 > 0:55:22Have meant people have died younger than they should have done.
0:55:22 > 0:55:24This is a real scandal of public policy and no
0:55:24 > 0:55:28I don't think the answer is penalising the motorist.
0:55:28 > 0:55:31Most of us actually want to drive into cities particularly,
0:55:31 > 0:55:33if you represent a rural constituency like mine, people
0:55:33 > 0:55:35want to go into Bath or Bristol.
0:55:35 > 0:55:36They want to drive in.
0:55:36 > 0:55:38It would take them all week to get a bus.
0:55:38 > 0:55:41They'd have to devote their whole life to plotting the bus route. They
0:55:41 > 0:55:45want to drive in and out. I think politics is about making life easier
0:55:45 > 0:55:51for people, allowing them to do what they want to do and taking obstacles
0:55:51 > 0:55:54out of thafr way, not ordering them about how they should lead their
0:55:54 > 0:56:00lives. Definitely not.Shami Chakrabarti. Congesting charges in
0:56:00 > 0:56:05all cities to improve air quality? There is a role for congestion
0:56:05 > 0:56:10charging if it's matched with cheap accessible public transport.
0:56:10 > 0:56:15APPLAUSE We do not, we do not have that in
0:56:15 > 0:56:20large parts of this country.The Mayor of London was wrong to
0:56:20 > 0:56:24introduce this new extra charge? Is No, not at You think there all.Is
0:56:24 > 0:56:31adequate...There is a role for congestion charging, but, it - the
0:56:31 > 0:56:36double whammy is if it costs too much to drive and you have no access
0:56:36 > 0:56:42to affordable transport.Alex Salmond.I was liszening to Jacob,
0:56:42 > 0:56:49he onced campaigned in a Bentley in central Fife. There were no
0:56:49 > 0:56:53congestion charging at the time! APPLAUSE
0:56:53 > 0:56:58I agree they are fine if there are options. Either public transport or
0:56:58 > 0:57:06a move to Lek tri. 1100 years ago there were Lek tritaxis in the north
0:57:06 > 0:57:13of Scotland. That technology didn't come on because the edge inruled and
0:57:13 > 0:57:17we should go full stilt and give people the cheap openings option
0:57:17 > 0:57:21that even Camilla could We have a afford.Minute. Jermaine Greer you
0:57:21 > 0:57:25have half a minute as a result of Alex.Looking taking money off
0:57:25 > 0:57:30people makes no difference to air quality whatsoever.
0:57:30 > 0:57:35APPLAUSE?There is no connection. Thank you Jermaine. Le I was hoping
0:57:35 > 0:57:39you might take the question which you will understand about how you
0:57:39 > 0:57:44felt about recovering from an operation in the home of a stranger,
0:57:44 > 0:57:51which was this proposal for, Air B&B. We can't get to it.Shame.Next
0:57:51 > 0:57:57Thursday we are going to be in Kilmarnock. We have Owen Jones,
0:57:57 > 0:58:02Daniel Hanlon on our panel. The week we are in Croydon. Call if you want
0:58:02 > 0:58:06to be in either audience. Go to our website, the address is on the
0:58:06 > 0:58:12screen. Follow the instructions there. On BBC 5 Live it's Question
0:58:12 > 0:58:15Time Extra Time discussing the issues we have been talk about.
0:58:15 > 0:58:25Thank you to my panel and all who came to Portsmouth to take part. But
0:58:25 > 0:58:32until next time, good night.