0:00:05 > 0:00:10Tonight, we are in Kilmarnock, and welcome to Question Time.
0:00:15 > 0:00:20Here on our panel, the Conservative MEP
0:00:20 > 0:00:21and committed Brexiteer, Daniel Hannan.
0:00:21 > 0:00:22Jeane Freeman, formerly a communist activist,
0:00:22 > 0:00:26then Labour Party adviser, now the SNP's minister
0:00:26 > 0:00:30for social security.
0:00:30 > 0:00:32The former leader of the Scottish Labour Party, Kezia Dugdale.
0:00:32 > 0:00:35Senior editor of the Economist and veteran Westminster
0:00:35 > 0:00:38watcher, Anne McElvoy.
0:00:38 > 0:00:40And flying the flag for a socialist Britain, the Guardian
0:00:40 > 0:00:45columnist Owen Jones.
0:00:55 > 0:00:56Thank you very much.
0:00:56 > 0:00:59Remember, if you are a regular watcher, you can, of course,
0:00:59 > 0:01:01take issue with the panel and with the audience
0:01:01 > 0:01:04using #BBCQT, either Twitter or Facebook.
0:01:04 > 0:01:06Or you can text us on 83981.
0:01:06 > 0:01:09And if you push the red button, you may discover what other
0:01:09 > 0:01:11people are texting.
0:01:11 > 0:01:17Our first question from a Ailis Miller, please.
0:01:17 > 0:01:20Can we ever change the behaviour and culture of predatory men who use
0:01:20 > 0:01:24sexual abuse to exert their power?
0:01:24 > 0:01:28Right, can we ever change the behaviour of predatory men?
0:01:28 > 0:01:30We know what you're talking about.
0:01:30 > 0:01:31Jeane Freeman.
0:01:31 > 0:01:37I think the main people who need to take responsibility
0:01:37 > 0:01:38for changing that behaviour are the men.
0:01:38 > 0:01:44APPLAUSE
0:01:44 > 0:01:48I am increasingly depressed by the notion that sexual abuse,
0:01:48 > 0:01:53sexual harassment, sexism, which happens across our country,
0:01:53 > 0:01:58in not just the media or newsrooms, or in corridors of power,
0:01:58 > 0:02:02but in shops and offices right across the land,
0:02:02 > 0:02:05I am increasingly depressed at the notion that this is somehow
0:02:05 > 0:02:09women's problem and we need to do something to fix it.
0:02:09 > 0:02:13I think it is crystal clear now, this is about the attitudes
0:02:13 > 0:02:16and behaviour of men who think they have an entitlement to take
0:02:16 > 0:02:20what they want, when they want.
0:02:20 > 0:02:23And the people who need to change that are men.
0:02:23 > 0:02:26And that is why I was really pleased that in our Scottish Parliament
0:02:26 > 0:02:30it was a senior male politician in government who stood up
0:02:30 > 0:02:34and made that point.
0:02:34 > 0:02:37That men need to challenge each other.
0:02:37 > 0:02:41They need to be much less tolerant of the locker room chat,
0:02:41 > 0:02:43the casual jokes, the casual comments, and the belittling
0:02:43 > 0:02:47of women in every single respect.
0:02:47 > 0:02:51You know, if we simply look at how we deal with female politicians,
0:02:51 > 0:02:53why are we so obsessed with what a woman is wearing
0:02:53 > 0:02:57when she is a politician?
0:02:57 > 0:02:59Maybe it is because, frankly, what men wear
0:02:59 > 0:03:01when they are politicians is pretty boring, I will give you that.
0:03:01 > 0:03:05But that is not the kind of behaviours that really says
0:03:05 > 0:03:10to young women and girls in particular, "You be what you can be.
0:03:10 > 0:03:13"The opportunities are there for you and we will open
0:03:13 > 0:03:16"the doors for you".
0:03:16 > 0:03:19We are not saying that with honesty if we are also saying to them that
0:03:19 > 0:03:23as soon as you stick your head up we are going to try and undermine
0:03:23 > 0:03:24you and belittle you.
0:03:24 > 0:03:26That won't do.
0:03:26 > 0:03:32APPLAUSE
0:03:32 > 0:03:33Anne McElvoy.
0:03:33 > 0:03:37Well, yes, I think it is changing and I think it's changing very fast.
0:03:37 > 0:03:39And we are seeing it change this very week.
0:03:39 > 0:03:40We've got the proof before us.
0:03:40 > 0:03:43The House of Commons that I started writing about -
0:03:43 > 0:03:45thank you very much, David, for the word "veteran".
0:03:45 > 0:03:48Yes!
0:03:48 > 0:03:50It's a different place.
0:03:50 > 0:03:53I think what has happened is that now, and we take the fact
0:03:53 > 0:03:56that we have had the most senior resignation really we could imagine,
0:03:56 > 0:03:58the Secretary of State for Defence, Michael Fallon.
0:03:58 > 0:04:00Even ten years ago that would have been one of those,
0:04:00 > 0:04:04"he says, she says".
0:04:04 > 0:04:08It would have hung around for a bit, he would have tried to hang on,
0:04:08 > 0:04:10he would probably have had the Prime Minister's
0:04:10 > 0:04:11support for longer.
0:04:11 > 0:04:14And it's just a sign that the mores, the way that we think about how men
0:04:14 > 0:04:18should behave to women as a norm in politics is changing, and I have
0:04:18 > 0:04:19to say not just in politics.
0:04:19 > 0:04:21Carry on Westminster needs to end.
0:04:21 > 0:04:23All these excuses about, its flirtation, it's banter,
0:04:23 > 0:04:26there are lines and we need to police those lines much more.
0:04:26 > 0:04:29And I think that has certainly come across this week
0:04:29 > 0:04:31to the political class.
0:04:31 > 0:04:34I was just about to say, I am a bit wary about saying this
0:04:34 > 0:04:35is only about sleazy politicians.
0:04:35 > 0:04:38The media world that I joined, apparently back in the Punic Wars,
0:04:38 > 0:04:41according to David...
0:04:41 > 0:04:43Veteran just means you've been doing it for a bit.
0:04:43 > 0:04:47It doesn't mean you're aged.
0:04:47 > 0:04:48Thank you.
0:04:48 > 0:04:49I'm better already.
0:04:49 > 0:04:50It really has changed.
0:04:50 > 0:04:52But it needs to change more.
0:04:52 > 0:04:55I am absolutely taking this point.
0:04:55 > 0:04:59It is also the job of men to change that just as much as women.
0:04:59 > 0:05:02We've got to get out of the way of thinking about it as just
0:05:02 > 0:05:05the feminist cause that the blokes put up with.
0:05:05 > 0:05:07What do you make of what Sir Michael Fallon said,
0:05:07 > 0:05:10"What might have been acceptable 15 or ten years ago is clearly
0:05:10 > 0:05:12"not acceptable now"?
0:05:12 > 0:05:14Do you think that's a legitimate justification for his behaviour
0:05:14 > 0:05:16ten or 15 years ago?
0:05:16 > 0:05:19No, I don't.
0:05:19 > 0:05:22I think he was trying, to some extent, to be frank.
0:05:22 > 0:05:26I'm going to give him a little bit of the benefit of the doubt.
0:05:26 > 0:05:29I think he was trying to explain how he got himself into this mess.
0:05:29 > 0:05:31He's an intelligent man, a very experienced politician.
0:05:31 > 0:05:33He was supposed to be the safe pair of hands.
0:05:33 > 0:05:35That may be an unfortunate phrase in the circumstances.
0:05:35 > 0:05:38I think what is wrong with it is it wasn't acceptable then,
0:05:38 > 0:05:43it's just he didn't know it.
0:05:43 > 0:05:44And that is what annoys people.
0:05:44 > 0:05:47I think if you say to people who have that view,
0:05:47 > 0:05:49"Would you have liked to your daughter to go
0:05:49 > 0:05:53"into politics, or go into any
0:05:53 > 0:05:56"profession and necessarily feel that they sometimes had to sort
0:05:56 > 0:05:59"of fend off lusty men around the office, when they were not
0:05:59 > 0:06:03"really putting themselves in the way of trying to go out
0:06:03 > 0:06:06"on a date with you"?
0:06:06 > 0:06:08I think that is a line that we have just changed our
0:06:08 > 0:06:10understanding of that.
0:06:10 > 0:06:12Sometimes people make excuses but when you ask them if they'd
0:06:12 > 0:06:15like their own children to come up against it when they go
0:06:15 > 0:06:18into the workplace or start to turn to adult life, they're
0:06:18 > 0:06:19much more stringent.
0:06:19 > 0:06:20I think that's good.
0:06:20 > 0:06:23Let's hear from one or two members of the audience before we go on.
0:06:23 > 0:06:26What's your view yourself?
0:06:26 > 0:06:30I think it will take a long time.
0:06:30 > 0:06:32I think it will take generations to actually change.
0:06:32 > 0:06:33And you, sir.
0:06:33 > 0:06:36It's not just entirely men that cause this problem.
0:06:36 > 0:06:38When I was at sea, I sailed with a stewardess who had
0:06:38 > 0:06:41retired out of the RAF, who had been based at Chequers.
0:06:41 > 0:06:44And she used to tell us that she used to lick her lips
0:06:44 > 0:06:47when the new recruits came into the building.
0:06:47 > 0:06:51All right.
0:06:51 > 0:06:53I don't know if we want to go into that one!
0:06:53 > 0:06:59You, sir, there.
0:06:59 > 0:07:02What I cannot understand is a lot of the recent furore over what has
0:07:02 > 0:07:03been happening is historical.
0:07:03 > 0:07:10And you would ask yourself why the people concerned haven't
0:07:10 > 0:07:11come forward before now.
0:07:11 > 0:07:14Some of that is because they've been in fear of their livelihoods,
0:07:14 > 0:07:17or their jobs, or whatever it might be.
0:07:17 > 0:07:20But I thought that we have a charter, a whistle-blower's
0:07:20 > 0:07:23charter, that never seems to have been upheld.
0:07:23 > 0:07:26And therefore, the people concerned have never felt
0:07:26 > 0:07:31that they got any support.
0:07:31 > 0:07:32Owen Jones.
0:07:32 > 0:07:35Well, look, we live in a society which is still riddled
0:07:35 > 0:07:37and is defined in lots of ways by sexism and misogyny.
0:07:37 > 0:07:40And the point you just made there, it is so hard for survivors
0:07:40 > 0:07:42of sexual violence to come forward.
0:07:42 > 0:07:47There's a sense of, "It's my word against theirs".
0:07:47 > 0:07:50It's the abuse of male power, this belief that, the sense
0:07:50 > 0:07:54of entitlement that people have, a sense that their career could be
0:07:54 > 0:07:56jeopardised as a consequence, that their sexual history will be
0:07:56 > 0:08:00trawled over, that they will be demonised and attacked
0:08:00 > 0:08:02in court and all the rest.
0:08:02 > 0:08:08The truth is, in Britain, men who assault, harass and rape
0:08:08 > 0:08:11women get away with it.
0:08:11 > 0:08:161.4 million women every single year suffer from domestic violence.
0:08:16 > 0:08:19400,000 are sexually assaulted and 90,000 are raped and the vast
0:08:19 > 0:08:22majority of those cases there is absolutely no
0:08:22 > 0:08:25justice whatsoever.
0:08:25 > 0:08:28But the answer to the first question has to be this.
0:08:28 > 0:08:30The only way we ever got change was courageous women,
0:08:30 > 0:08:33the women's movement, struggling for the rights
0:08:33 > 0:08:36of women against entrenched misogyny and sexism.
0:08:36 > 0:08:40And that's how all the rights we have in law, when it comes
0:08:40 > 0:08:43to protecting women, have been achieved,
0:08:43 > 0:08:46that the transformation of male attitudes, which still has a long
0:08:46 > 0:08:50way to go, was because of the struggle of women.
0:08:50 > 0:08:53But my fear in Parliament, we'll talk about, I'm sure,
0:08:53 > 0:08:55Labour's own particular independent enquiry into the horrendous rape
0:08:55 > 0:08:58of Bex Bailey, an incredibly courageous young woman.
0:08:58 > 0:09:03My worry with the Conservative Party at the moment was a briefing
0:09:03 > 0:09:06in the Sunday Times this week which suggested the new Defence
0:09:06 > 0:09:10Secretary, Kevin Williamson, had given regular briefings
0:09:10 > 0:09:14to Theresa May about sexual harrassment by her Cabinet
0:09:14 > 0:09:18ministers and MPs.
0:09:18 > 0:09:21And the question has to be there, why wasn't it acted on?
0:09:21 > 0:09:23Was it used to try and keep their loyalty, to scare them
0:09:23 > 0:09:26into believing that it would be exposed, rather than acting on it?
0:09:26 > 0:09:29Did the whips fail to act?
0:09:29 > 0:09:32Because if the government of this country takes a blind eye
0:09:32 > 0:09:34to sexual harrassment, what message does that send
0:09:34 > 0:09:36to the rest of the country, when male violence against girls
0:09:36 > 0:09:40and women is so rampant?
0:09:40 > 0:09:42They have to set an example, and that means cleaning up politics
0:09:42 > 0:09:45in this country to show that sexism and misogyny has been consigned
0:09:45 > 0:09:47to the scrapheap of history forever.
0:09:47 > 0:09:56APPLAUSE
0:09:56 > 0:09:58First of all, I think what has happened to
0:09:58 > 0:10:00Bex Bailey was abhorrent.
0:10:00 > 0:10:02I think the violence and harassment against women is abhorrent.
0:10:02 > 0:10:06But I think we have to be very, very careful to create a society
0:10:06 > 0:10:11where all men are viewed by women as a potential predator,
0:10:11 > 0:10:15and that all women could therefore just be seen as a victim.
0:10:15 > 0:10:19Particularly in the case of Michael Fallon.
0:10:19 > 0:10:21The journalist herself said that she did not feel
0:10:21 > 0:10:23that she was a victim.
0:10:23 > 0:10:29She felt that she dealt with it at the time.
0:10:29 > 0:10:33She spoke to him, he didn't do it again, and that was the end of it.
0:10:33 > 0:10:36And I think we have to make a clear distinction about the cases
0:10:36 > 0:10:38of Bex Bailey and women who are threatened,
0:10:38 > 0:10:41who are harassed, who are made to feel inferior and scared,
0:10:41 > 0:10:44and men who I would just say chance their arm
0:10:44 > 0:10:48and get a hand away.
0:10:48 > 0:10:51I think there has to be a clear distinction.
0:10:51 > 0:10:53I don't think you can legislate for what I would call,
0:10:53 > 0:10:55perhaps, lechy, or not particularly pleasant behaviour.
0:10:55 > 0:10:58Because I think if you equate violence, rape, harassment
0:10:58 > 0:11:04with somebody potentially
0:11:04 > 0:11:08touching a knee, if you say they are the same thing,
0:11:08 > 0:11:10then I think it belittles the argument.
0:11:10 > 0:11:17APPLAUSE
0:11:17 > 0:11:19Kezia Dugdale, do you agree with her?
0:11:19 > 0:11:22I do, yes.
0:11:22 > 0:11:25Let me say something about Bex Bailey in a second,
0:11:25 > 0:11:28but that was the point about Michael Fallon first.
0:11:28 > 0:11:30Seriously, if Michael Fallon has resigned, and we are told
0:11:30 > 0:11:33we are to believe he has resigned because he touched a woman's knee
0:11:33 > 0:11:36ten years ago, there won't be a single Tory minister left
0:11:36 > 0:11:37come Sunday.
0:11:37 > 0:11:43APPLAUSE
0:11:43 > 0:11:45This is about a culture that permeates politics,
0:11:45 > 0:11:47and we are all looking at our Parliaments now
0:11:47 > 0:11:50but we are kidding ourselves if this isn't happening in every single
0:11:50 > 0:11:52workplace across the country today.
0:11:52 > 0:11:55I know of constituents, young mums working part-time,
0:11:55 > 0:11:58who are scared to speak up when their boss slaps them
0:11:58 > 0:12:01on the bum because they know they will lose their job.
0:12:01 > 0:12:03This is the type of thing happening in women's everyday lives
0:12:03 > 0:12:06which is being exposed in our politics just now.
0:12:06 > 0:12:08I know Bex Bailey quite well and I spoke to somebody
0:12:08 > 0:12:12who is looking after her just now because right enough she has
0:12:12 > 0:12:14turned her phone off, does not want to speak
0:12:14 > 0:12:18to journalists, feels she has done her bit.
0:12:18 > 0:12:20If Bex was here tonight she would say,
0:12:20 > 0:12:23"Listen to what she actually said in the interview on the radio".
0:12:23 > 0:12:26She doesn't want this to be about her or individual women
0:12:26 > 0:12:29like her, but to be about how we change the culture now.
0:12:29 > 0:12:32And she is begging politicians and people in power to learn
0:12:32 > 0:12:36the lessons of what happened to her.
0:12:36 > 0:12:38And the one thing she's asking for is independent reporting
0:12:38 > 0:12:41of sexual harrassment.
0:12:41 > 0:12:44You should not have to phone your boss or somebody in a more powerful
0:12:44 > 0:12:46position than you to report this kind of behaviour.
0:12:46 > 0:12:49We have to trust the system, because what's happening just now
0:12:49 > 0:12:51is that women feel three things.
0:12:51 > 0:12:53One, that they won't be believed.
0:12:53 > 0:12:55Two, that no action will be taken.
0:12:55 > 0:12:59And perhaps the worst of all, that they will be marked as trouble.
0:12:59 > 0:13:01This isn't about women, it's about our culture,
0:13:01 > 0:13:03and it's high time we changed it.
0:13:03 > 0:13:12APPLAUSE
0:13:12 > 0:13:15The focus just now is on Westminster and there obviously is a problem
0:13:15 > 0:13:17there, but given that there is a correlation between alcohol
0:13:17 > 0:13:21consumption and sexual misconduct, shouldn't a step be taken
0:13:21 > 0:13:24in Westminster and in Holyrood to ban the sale or supply of alcohol
0:13:24 > 0:13:26within those premises, like every other
0:13:26 > 0:13:30workplace in the country?
0:13:30 > 0:13:35APPLAUSE
0:13:35 > 0:13:37And someone just behind you, yes.
0:13:37 > 0:13:42I think it is very important that we remember it isn't just
0:13:42 > 0:13:44women that are affected by sexual harrassment.
0:13:44 > 0:13:47Men are as well, every day in the workplace, anywhere.
0:13:47 > 0:13:51Women can be as sleazy, inappropriate and violent
0:13:51 > 0:13:53as some men can.
0:13:53 > 0:13:57But it's even harder for men, a lot of men, to come forward
0:13:57 > 0:14:01and state that they have been harassed, or they have been
0:14:01 > 0:14:05assaulted, because there's an even bigger stigma attached to it.
0:14:05 > 0:14:09So many people see it as, a woman can't attack a man.
0:14:09 > 0:14:13A man can attack a woman, that's accepted.
0:14:13 > 0:14:15But a man cannot be attacked by a woman,
0:14:15 > 0:14:22because clearly he's a man.
0:14:22 > 0:14:27Are you saying men are attacked, not by other men, but are
0:14:27 > 0:14:29sexually harassed by women?
0:14:29 > 0:14:33Yes, it does happen, and it is overlooked.
0:14:33 > 0:14:36A man's sexually harassed by a woman.
0:14:36 > 0:14:41No matter how he feels, if he likes it or if he dislikes it,
0:14:41 > 0:14:44other guys are like, oh, on you go, get in, good on you!
0:14:44 > 0:14:48But really, that man could be sitting...
0:14:48 > 0:14:52I've actually met somebody who was really, really traumatised
0:14:52 > 0:14:55by a woman that had been constantly having a go.
0:14:55 > 0:14:58She was like, oh, we're just having a laugh.
0:14:58 > 0:15:00And he said to her, please stop, I'm not enjoying it.
0:15:00 > 0:15:03He ended up leaving.
0:15:03 > 0:15:05OK.
0:15:05 > 0:15:06Daniel Hannan.
0:15:06 > 0:15:09APPLAUSE.
0:15:09 > 0:15:12Well, the question was, are attitudes improving?
0:15:12 > 0:15:13Can they be improved?
0:15:13 > 0:15:16And I think the answer has to be yes.
0:15:16 > 0:15:18I mean, my daughters, when they enter the workplace,
0:15:18 > 0:15:22will not be entering the workplace with the same sort of attitudes
0:15:22 > 0:15:26that my mother faced when she did, let alone going back further
0:15:26 > 0:15:29to before when women had equal rights in law,
0:15:29 > 0:15:32and when even violence against women could be sanctioned legally.
0:15:32 > 0:15:37So plainly there is an arc bending in the right direction.
0:15:37 > 0:15:39But there is obviously something unpleasant about having
0:15:39 > 0:15:43a workplace atmosphere, and I agree with what everyone has
0:15:43 > 0:15:44said that this isn't just about politics -
0:15:44 > 0:15:47we've seen it in the Church and the media and in
0:15:47 > 0:15:49the private sector...
0:15:49 > 0:15:52There is something unpleasant about a workplace where women feel
0:15:52 > 0:15:57on edge, either because of banter or because of behaviour
0:15:57 > 0:15:59that they think...
0:15:59 > 0:16:02Exactly what Kezia just said, that they don't want to look
0:16:02 > 0:16:03like troublemakers.
0:16:03 > 0:16:05And that's a nasty atmosphere for everyone.
0:16:05 > 0:16:08Obviously, most directly, for the women concerned,
0:16:08 > 0:16:10but it makes for a bad atmosphere for everyone.
0:16:10 > 0:16:11We have...
0:16:11 > 0:16:15We all have a reason for wanting to get on top of it.
0:16:15 > 0:16:17I think the PM was right to recognise that this
0:16:17 > 0:16:18is a cross-party issue.
0:16:18 > 0:16:22I think she was right to take, to grip it by the throat and say,
0:16:22 > 0:16:24we need to do something quickly about this, and credit
0:16:24 > 0:16:28to the other party leaders also for treating it that way.
0:16:28 > 0:16:30I'd add one important thing though.
0:16:30 > 0:16:34We need to distinguish between, as the lady over here said,
0:16:34 > 0:16:37between the levels of severity, and also between the
0:16:37 > 0:16:38levels of accuracy.
0:16:38 > 0:16:41I say this as someone who has written over the years
0:16:41 > 0:16:44for the Daily Telegraph, which did, I think, a great
0:16:44 > 0:16:47service when it exposed the Westminster expenses scandal,
0:16:47 > 0:16:49but there was a real flaw in how it did that,
0:16:49 > 0:16:52in that it tended to jumble everything together,
0:16:52 > 0:16:54from the criminal behaviour to the extravagant behaviour
0:16:54 > 0:16:56to the just slightly eccentric behaviour,
0:16:56 > 0:16:58as though it was all the same.
0:16:58 > 0:17:00There was no hierarchy of wrongdoing.
0:17:00 > 0:17:04And I think we need to be very careful not to do the same here.
0:17:04 > 0:17:06I think we recognise that there is a difference
0:17:06 > 0:17:10between abusing a position of authority, in extreme cases,
0:17:10 > 0:17:13actual sexual assault, and making a louche pass at somebody
0:17:13 > 0:17:17or being discourteous or being clumsy.
0:17:17 > 0:17:21And it's also important to remember that the severity of an accusation
0:17:21 > 0:17:25doesn't reverse the burden of proof.
0:17:25 > 0:17:27There is sometimes a temptation with particular allegations,
0:17:27 > 0:17:30because of their nature, that everyone kind of draws
0:17:30 > 0:17:35back and the presumption of innocence is reversed.
0:17:35 > 0:17:39In this dossier that was circulating among the staff, there seem to be
0:17:39 > 0:17:42some cases that are just straightforwardly false,
0:17:42 > 0:17:44and I think it is worth remembering that the presumption of innocence
0:17:44 > 0:17:47is not just some piety, it has to mean something.
0:17:47 > 0:17:50APPLAUSE.
0:17:54 > 0:17:56Just before we leave this, a hierarchy of wrongdoing.
0:17:56 > 0:18:00Do you agree there is I hierarchy of wrongdoing?
0:18:00 > 0:18:04Well, I agree with what Kezia said, in that there is clearly
0:18:04 > 0:18:12a difference between sexually motivated talk and harassment
0:18:12 > 0:18:15and sexual violence and rape.
0:18:15 > 0:18:17There is clearly a difference.
0:18:17 > 0:18:20But I'm not sure I do agree with Daniel,
0:18:20 > 0:18:24because what you described to me, in terms of the expenses scandal,
0:18:24 > 0:18:31was actually at its core an abuse of power, and I think whether or not
0:18:31 > 0:18:36it is sexual harassment in the terms of language and intimidating
0:18:36 > 0:18:41behaviour or it is sexual violence, it is an abuse of power.
0:18:41 > 0:18:47Therefore, whilst you might take different solutions to that,
0:18:47 > 0:18:53with criminal behaviour at one end and other behaviour at the other
0:18:53 > 0:18:58end, nonetheless, the core of it is a belief that a group
0:18:58 > 0:19:01of people are less than you and that you have an entitlement to exercise
0:19:01 > 0:19:05power over that group of people.
0:19:05 > 0:19:08I think, in response to what the young lady
0:19:08 > 0:19:13in the audience said about when men are harassed, my attitude is simple.
0:19:13 > 0:19:18Harassing and intimidating and abusing anyone is unacceptable.
0:19:18 > 0:19:22But we are clear that the vast majority of people who have to deal
0:19:22 > 0:19:25with that day in and day out are women.
0:19:25 > 0:19:29And that is what all of this is exposing.
0:19:29 > 0:19:32It's not just about one individual or another individual.
0:19:32 > 0:19:36It's about attitudinal and behavioural change.
0:19:36 > 0:19:39And it has to absolutely be led by those of us
0:19:39 > 0:19:42who are elected to make laws.
0:19:42 > 0:19:46We need to have a particularly high standard of our own behaviour.
0:19:46 > 0:19:50But it needs to permeate all the way through our society so that,
0:19:50 > 0:19:53in those factories and shops and the rest of it,
0:19:53 > 0:19:56there is change there, too, and the leaders of that,
0:19:56 > 0:20:01in all honesty, need to be men, supporting the women who speak out.
0:20:01 > 0:20:06APPLAUSE.
0:20:06 > 0:20:09I'll take one last point, then we must go on.
0:20:09 > 0:20:12I suspect that Michael Fallon knows that his behaviour
0:20:12 > 0:20:15was unacceptable ten, 15 years ago, but that
0:20:15 > 0:20:17it wasn't perhaps...
0:20:17 > 0:20:20The issue wasn't out there in the media spotlight
0:20:20 > 0:20:25and under scrutiny, and others are obviously involved as well.
0:20:25 > 0:20:27So I think that's why he has chosen to resign.
0:20:27 > 0:20:30OK.
0:20:30 > 0:20:31Let's go on to another question.
0:20:31 > 0:20:35Before we do, we are going to be in Croydon next, and the week
0:20:35 > 0:20:38after that we are in Newcastle, and on the screen now,
0:20:38 > 0:20:42if you want to make a note of our e-mail address and phone
0:20:42 > 0:20:44number, I'll give it all again at the end,
0:20:44 > 0:20:48but it's Croydon next week and Newcastle the week after.
0:20:48 > 0:20:50If you want to come, you will be extremely welcome.
0:20:50 > 0:20:54Alistair Bell, let's have your question, please.
0:20:54 > 0:20:55Eight Catalan ministers have been jailed.
0:20:55 > 0:20:59Does the panel agree that Spain is behaving like a fascist state?
0:20:59 > 0:21:01Wow, Catalonia.
0:21:01 > 0:21:09Eight of the Catalan devolution ministers were jailed today.
0:21:09 > 0:21:13Is Spain behaving like a fascist state?
0:21:13 > 0:21:14Owen Jones?
0:21:14 > 0:21:16Certainly, as a very authoritarian, anti-democratic
0:21:16 > 0:21:17state, to say the least.
0:21:17 > 0:21:19Look, it doesn't matter whether you support
0:21:19 > 0:21:20Catalan independence.
0:21:20 > 0:21:22It's quite irrelevant.
0:21:22 > 0:21:26The issue is, do you support the right of the Catalan people
0:21:26 > 0:21:30to freely determine their own future without being dragged from polling
0:21:30 > 0:21:32stations and thrown down stairs?
0:21:32 > 0:21:35And in modern Europe, to see an elected Catalan,
0:21:35 > 0:21:40an elected political leadership leaving a country to claim political
0:21:40 > 0:21:44asylum and being locked up in prisons, that should chill every
0:21:44 > 0:21:48single European and encourage us to stand in solidarity
0:21:48 > 0:21:49with the Catalan people.
0:21:49 > 0:21:52I think this is a bit like the right to divorce.
0:21:52 > 0:21:55Just because you support the right to divorce doesn't mean you think
0:21:55 > 0:21:57everybody should get divorced.
0:21:57 > 0:22:00Imagine you've got a married couple and one of them said,
0:22:00 > 0:22:02I'm having second thoughts about this, I'm not sure
0:22:02 > 0:22:04it's working out, I'm thinking about a divorce.
0:22:04 > 0:22:07And the response of the partner is, how dare you!
0:22:07 > 0:22:10Screaming in their face, vetoing any talk of a divorce and making
0:22:10 > 0:22:13their life increasingly hellish.
0:22:13 > 0:22:17In a sense, the right to national self-determination is similar.
0:22:17 > 0:22:20I don't support Catalan independence myself,
0:22:20 > 0:22:23but I think they have a basic democratic right to
0:22:23 > 0:22:27determine, whether in an independent state or not.
0:22:27 > 0:22:29If Scotland had been denied the right to determine its own
0:22:29 > 0:22:32future, that would have been a democratic outrage and,
0:22:32 > 0:22:36in modern Europe, the least that the other European governments
0:22:36 > 0:22:40can do is tell the Spanish government, stop assaulting voters,
0:22:40 > 0:22:44stop locking up elected politicians, stop denying the right of your
0:22:44 > 0:22:47people to determine their own future, and stop
0:22:47 > 0:22:49attacking civil liberties.
0:22:49 > 0:22:52Whatever you think about independence, that should be
0:22:52 > 0:22:54something that unites all of us.
0:22:54 > 0:22:56APPLAUSE.
0:23:02 > 0:23:03Daniel Hannan.
0:23:03 > 0:23:07I feel so lucky that I live in a country where this kind
0:23:07 > 0:23:09of thing is unthinkable.
0:23:09 > 0:23:13Just imagine if something similar had been the response when the issue
0:23:13 > 0:23:15of Scottish independence was put.
0:23:15 > 0:23:18Just imagine if David Cameron had responded to Alex Salmond not
0:23:18 > 0:23:21by sitting down and discussing the terms of the question
0:23:21 > 0:23:26and the franchise, but by having him arrested.
0:23:26 > 0:23:29Imagine that police had been sent in to break up the poll, or even,
0:23:29 > 0:23:33before you get there, imagine London politicians
0:23:33 > 0:23:37saying, we need to anglicise Scotland, in the way that
0:23:37 > 0:23:39a PP former minister in Madrid was saying...
0:23:39 > 0:23:42HE SPEAKS SPANISH.
0:23:42 > 0:23:46It's an almost unthinkable situation.
0:23:46 > 0:23:49I'm very pleased that we live in a country where we are bound
0:23:49 > 0:23:51together by shared values but where it's clearly understood
0:23:51 > 0:23:53that it's a democracy and you are free to leave.
0:23:53 > 0:23:56And when you are free to leave, you are in no hurry
0:23:56 > 0:23:57to exercise that right.
0:23:57 > 0:24:00If we saw people coming in and locking the doors
0:24:00 > 0:24:02around us in this studio, our first instinct would be to try
0:24:02 > 0:24:04and get out, wouldn't it?
0:24:04 > 0:24:05In a sense, that's the position.
0:24:05 > 0:24:06You are locked in, actually.
0:24:06 > 0:24:09You can't get out until the hour is up.
0:24:09 > 0:24:12And I say this as someone who is deeply Hispanophile,
0:24:12 > 0:24:17and most of my Spanish friends and colleagues are conservatives
0:24:17 > 0:24:22and unionists, but for the last three years I have watched
0:24:22 > 0:24:26with increasing bewilderment as they've created a problem that
0:24:26 > 0:24:28previously wasn't there.
0:24:28 > 0:24:31If there had been a referendum three or four years ago,
0:24:31 > 0:24:34all the indications are that it would have gone in favour
0:24:34 > 0:24:36of the status quo.
0:24:36 > 0:24:40Isn't there a reality that it's against the Spanish constitution
0:24:40 > 0:24:43to have a referendum?
0:24:43 > 0:24:46So change the constitution, or at least provide a mechanism
0:24:46 > 0:24:49whereby constitutional change is possible.
0:24:49 > 0:24:53The compromise here is so obvious, and it's supported in all the polls.
0:24:53 > 0:24:57You can give Catalonia more autonomy within a continuing union.
0:24:57 > 0:25:01The vast majority of Catalans say that is their preferred option.
0:25:01 > 0:25:04Most Spanish, most Castilian Spanish people say that that would be
0:25:04 > 0:25:05the acceptable way out of the crisis.
0:25:05 > 0:25:07It's just extraordinary that this pig-headedness,
0:25:07 > 0:25:10this stubbornness, on both sides, I have to say, has made that kind
0:25:10 > 0:25:13of outcome so difficult.
0:25:13 > 0:25:15You, sir, in the white shirt.
0:25:15 > 0:25:18You say all this, but you support a government that still
0:25:18 > 0:25:22backs Spain's position.
0:25:22 > 0:25:24So are you going to lobby the Government to change
0:25:24 > 0:25:30their position on the Spanish stance at the moment?
0:25:30 > 0:25:32Well, one thing is, what should be the position of recognising
0:25:32 > 0:25:35an independent Catalonia?
0:25:35 > 0:25:38I think it would be wrong for other governments to start interfering
0:25:38 > 0:25:41in the internal affairs of a friendly country.
0:25:41 > 0:25:44Daniel, just quickly, it's a lot worse than that.
0:25:44 > 0:25:47We had scenes of voters dragged from polling stations
0:25:47 > 0:25:50and thrown down stairs, firefighters being attacked
0:25:50 > 0:25:52by the Spanish police.
0:25:52 > 0:25:55We're not saying they should recognise Catalan independence.
0:25:55 > 0:25:58We are saying, or I think some people in the audience
0:25:58 > 0:26:01probably think this, that they should condemn attacks
0:26:01 > 0:26:04on human rights and the democratic rights of the Catalan people.
0:26:04 > 0:26:05I'm very happy to do that.
0:26:05 > 0:26:07APPLAUSE.
0:26:07 > 0:26:13The Tory government is complicit in this.
0:26:13 > 0:26:15TALKING OVER EACH OTHER.
0:26:15 > 0:26:16He's saying the Tory government is complicit.
0:26:16 > 0:26:19I've said privately what I'll happily say now publicly
0:26:19 > 0:26:20to my Spanish conservative friends.
0:26:20 > 0:26:22I think this is not only a morally wrong behaviour,
0:26:22 > 0:26:25it is also intellectually wrong, it's foolish, because they are
0:26:25 > 0:26:29making much more likely the outcome that they supposedly...
0:26:29 > 0:26:32I think the point is whether you make the point
0:26:32 > 0:26:35to your British Conservatives, not the Spanish conservatives.
0:26:35 > 0:26:38The only thing practically the Government could do would be
0:26:38 > 0:26:40to take a different position on whether Catalonia
0:26:40 > 0:26:41should become independent.
0:26:41 > 0:26:43No, I don't think it should do that.
0:26:43 > 0:26:45I think it should be neutral.
0:26:45 > 0:26:46It should condemn the attacks on democracy.
0:26:46 > 0:26:47It's very straightforward.
0:26:47 > 0:26:50Well, I think, no, they have said there was excessive force.
0:26:50 > 0:26:55They haven't condemned the Spanish government for a thing they've done.
0:26:55 > 0:26:59Owen is absolutely right, and I appreciate what you say
0:26:59 > 0:27:03about the country that we live in and the way in which
0:27:03 > 0:27:08the proposition for a referendum in Scotland was negotiated,
0:27:08 > 0:27:11and I give credit to both the UK and the Scottish Government
0:27:11 > 0:27:15for doing that, but we cannot appreciate that and yet
0:27:15 > 0:27:21turn our faces away from a situation in Spain where that is not the case,
0:27:21 > 0:27:25and our government does have an obligation as a friend
0:27:25 > 0:27:31of Spain to say, you really do need to uphold democratic rights
0:27:31 > 0:27:36and allow people to determine the road that they want to go down.
0:27:36 > 0:27:42To make it worse, day by day, I am almost speechless when I see
0:27:42 > 0:27:48the next step that the Spanish government takes, and now to jail
0:27:48 > 0:27:53elected politicians, not sacked politicians,
0:27:53 > 0:27:58elected politicians, to put them in jail and to believe
0:27:58 > 0:28:02that that is a way to resolve a difference seems
0:28:02 > 0:28:04to me utter madness.
0:28:04 > 0:28:10That, frankly, is a way in which those differences will increase.
0:28:10 > 0:28:14You've got members of your party who signed a motion saying that
0:28:14 > 0:28:19Scotland should recognise Catalonia and its independence.
0:28:19 > 0:28:22SNP want independence from the UK.
0:28:22 > 0:28:24Do you support them?
0:28:24 > 0:28:27Do you think the SNP should take up a position of saying,
0:28:27 > 0:28:29we are in favour of an independent Catalonia?
0:28:29 > 0:28:32I understand why members of my own party have signed that motion,
0:28:32 > 0:28:35but perhaps they don't know that, as a Scottish Government, we don't
0:28:35 > 0:28:40have the powers to recognise anything internationally.
0:28:40 > 0:28:45What we can do and are doing is urging the Spanish government
0:28:45 > 0:28:48to uphold human rights and democracy, and hoping
0:28:48 > 0:28:54that the UK Government and the union that we are still part of will do
0:28:54 > 0:28:57exactly the same, because that is the right thing to do, regardless
0:28:57 > 0:28:59of your view on independence.
0:28:59 > 0:29:01Human rights and democracy.
0:29:01 > 0:29:03APPLAUSE.
0:29:03 > 0:29:06The woman on the left, yes.
0:29:06 > 0:29:10Every country in Europe should be condemning Spain.
0:29:10 > 0:29:14The way the Guardia went in, it was an absolute disgrace.
0:29:14 > 0:29:19We've had a house there for 26 years, and people that we know
0:29:19 > 0:29:23were pulled out of the polling station and not allowed to vote.
0:29:23 > 0:29:26It's a disgrace.
0:29:26 > 0:29:29And you, sir, at the very back, on the left.
0:29:29 > 0:29:32While I agree with Owen, the scenes that we've seen
0:29:32 > 0:29:39are totally unacceptable, and while probably at some
0:29:39 > 0:29:42point Catalonia will get the opportunity to vote for that,
0:29:42 > 0:29:46it was an illegal vote.
0:29:46 > 0:29:50When that vote does come along, which it probably will,
0:29:50 > 0:29:55and if it is a no, as in where the polls are suggesting
0:29:55 > 0:30:00at the moment, will the Catalans accept that no,
0:30:00 > 0:30:04unlike the Scottish Nationalists, who don't accept
0:30:04 > 0:30:09the no at the moment?
0:30:09 > 0:30:13OK, and you, sir, there.
0:30:13 > 0:30:17The man behind you, in the pink shirt.
0:30:17 > 0:30:21As you and the other gentleman said that the Catalonian independence
0:30:21 > 0:30:23referendum was unconstitutional and illegal, the actions taken
0:30:23 > 0:30:30by the Spanish government were completely reprehensible.
0:30:30 > 0:30:33All they needed to do was say that since this wasn't part
0:30:33 > 0:30:35of the Constitution, the vote was void, and there
0:30:35 > 0:30:37would have been far less trauma and lash back from this
0:30:37 > 0:30:42than from the actions they did take.
0:30:42 > 0:30:44Anne McElvoy.
0:30:44 > 0:30:47I think it's right but also a bit too easy to go down
0:30:47 > 0:30:48the line of condemnation.
0:30:48 > 0:30:51We can all condemn what we saw happen because we wouldn't
0:30:51 > 0:30:53want to see it in our own countries.
0:30:53 > 0:30:56And having cut my teeth in the old East Germany,
0:30:56 > 0:30:58covering authoritarian regimes in Eastern Europe and the former
0:30:58 > 0:31:00Soviet Union, it has resonances which are deeply unpleasant.
0:31:00 > 0:31:04But the facts are that there is not an overall appetite
0:31:04 > 0:31:07in Catalonia for independence, and sometimes the debate
0:31:07 > 0:31:09is conducted as if there were.
0:31:09 > 0:31:12And sometimes some of the framing of news reporting seems
0:31:12 > 0:31:14to suggest that there is.
0:31:14 > 0:31:17And there is not.
0:31:17 > 0:31:20This referendum was not held in a way that was appropriate.
0:31:20 > 0:31:23The road to it was not the one that would have been taken in the sense
0:31:23 > 0:31:26of we talked earlier, referred to the Scottish referendum.
0:31:26 > 0:31:32It is a sign of what happens if you go down roads
0:31:32 > 0:31:35which are secessionary rather than pro-independence.
0:31:35 > 0:31:39If you want a legitimate independence movement,
0:31:39 > 0:31:43then go out there, campaign for it, get people on your side.
0:31:43 > 0:31:46That, I think, would have shown up Madrid and the unbending stance,
0:31:46 > 0:31:50overly so, of Mr Rajoy, the Prime Minister, so much
0:31:50 > 0:31:54more than this slightly fly-by-night movement,
0:31:54 > 0:31:56which I don't think has covered itself in glory.
0:31:56 > 0:31:59Now is the time for both sides to step back.
0:31:59 > 0:32:01The push for independence is, I think, over for the moment.
0:32:01 > 0:32:04There will be a chance in elections in December I think
0:32:04 > 0:32:07to redraw the relationship.
0:32:07 > 0:32:10Personally, I'm for greater autonomy along the Basque model.
0:32:10 > 0:32:13But I think the way to do it is not this.
0:32:13 > 0:32:18We've seen a hot-headed conflict and it's had very bad results.
0:32:18 > 0:32:20To be fair, I think they did try.
0:32:20 > 0:32:22I happened to be in Barcelona, talking to what they call
0:32:22 > 0:32:24their Foreign Minister, the day before they
0:32:24 > 0:32:25announced the referendum.
0:32:25 > 0:32:30And he talked me through the ways in which he tried to negotiate
0:32:30 > 0:32:33with Madrid to get something that may have been a vote on something
0:32:33 > 0:32:35short of full independence.
0:32:35 > 0:32:37And there was a kind of aggressive authoritarian legalism from Madrid,
0:32:37 > 0:32:40an absolute refusal to discuss it, which I think is
0:32:40 > 0:32:42hugely unproductive.
0:32:42 > 0:32:44Kezia Dugdale hasn't had a chance.
0:32:44 > 0:32:46Kezia.
0:32:46 > 0:32:50Well, I think that Prime Minister Rajoy has done more to build support
0:32:50 > 0:32:52for independence than any Catalonian nationalist has done
0:32:52 > 0:32:54for quite some time, by the way that they have behaved.
0:32:54 > 0:32:56I think we've got two fundamental principles crashing,
0:32:56 > 0:32:58the rule of law and democracy.
0:32:58 > 0:33:00You've got the government in Madrid saying, "This
0:33:00 > 0:33:03"referendum's unconstitutional, we've got to abide
0:33:03 > 0:33:04"by the Constitution".
0:33:04 > 0:33:06And you've got people in Catalonia saying,
0:33:06 > 0:33:09"We just had this referendum, people have spoken and that
0:33:09 > 0:33:11"must be respected".
0:33:11 > 0:33:14This disaster, this complete mess, has all come around
0:33:14 > 0:33:16because that referendum did not have the legitimacy it should have
0:33:16 > 0:33:19had when the government in Catalonia had a majority to conduct
0:33:19 > 0:33:23that referendum.
0:33:23 > 0:33:26The only way we can get over this impasse, in my view,
0:33:26 > 0:33:28is to have a legitimate referendum in Catalonia.
0:33:28 > 0:33:31There has to be a political, democratic solution to this,
0:33:31 > 0:33:34and it has to be that referendum that everyone will take part in,
0:33:34 > 0:33:37everyone will vote in, and everybody should ultimately
0:33:37 > 0:33:40respect the result of that referendum.
0:33:40 > 0:33:45APPLAUSE
0:33:45 > 0:33:46We are over halfway through.
0:33:46 > 0:33:47We must move on.
0:33:47 > 0:33:49Matt McQuaid, your question, please.
0:33:49 > 0:33:55Should smacking a child be a criminal offence?
0:33:55 > 0:33:59The background to this is that it is going to become
0:33:59 > 0:34:01a criminal offence here in Scotland, correct?
0:34:01 > 0:34:04I don't know quite when but it's on the order book and the SNP
0:34:04 > 0:34:06are supporting it.
0:34:06 > 0:34:08So in Scotland, smacking a child is going to become
0:34:08 > 0:34:10a criminal offence.
0:34:10 > 0:34:15Anne McElvoy, do you think that is the right way to go?
0:34:15 > 0:34:17No, I don't.
0:34:17 > 0:34:18For two reasons.
0:34:18 > 0:34:21APPLAUSE
0:34:21 > 0:34:22I'll take that, thank you.
0:34:22 > 0:34:24I got there easy on that one.
0:34:24 > 0:34:26For two reasons.
0:34:26 > 0:34:29I remember Tony Blair saying when he was asked
0:34:29 > 0:34:32if he smacked his children that he had done it and he didn't
0:34:32 > 0:34:33feel great afterwards.
0:34:33 > 0:34:36It's usually a sign that you've lost control of the situation.
0:34:36 > 0:34:38It's usually really not your best moment as a parent.
0:34:38 > 0:34:41But it's something that some parents want to keep
0:34:41 > 0:34:44as a sanction and others don't, and I think that should be a choice.
0:34:44 > 0:34:47I'm taking as an obvious point that there is a line,
0:34:47 > 0:34:50and I think it's a common-sense line between that reasonable
0:34:50 > 0:34:55punishment and abuse.
0:34:55 > 0:34:57The other thing that worries me is the passing of laws
0:34:57 > 0:34:59which are sort of meaningless because they're incredibly
0:34:59 > 0:35:01hard to enforce.
0:35:01 > 0:35:03So either the state would have to really be intervening
0:35:03 > 0:35:06in the lives of every family in Scotland, which is unlikely
0:35:06 > 0:35:09and would be very unwelcome, or you will have an endless argument
0:35:09 > 0:35:12about what was really happening.
0:35:12 > 0:36:22And I think when you know that there is a real mistreatment,
0:36:22 > 0:36:23you should be absolutely Draconian about it.
0:36:23 > 0:36:26But parents on the whole are good judges of the way
0:36:26 > 0:36:27they bring up their children.
0:36:27 > 0:36:29Politicians are not such good judges of the way
0:36:29 > 0:36:32that we bring up our children.
0:36:32 > 0:36:35There is a defence of justifiable assault if a child is hit.
0:36:35 > 0:36:36I don't think that's right.
0:36:36 > 0:36:39And what this bill is seeking to do is remove that,
0:36:39 > 0:36:41so that children have equity in terms of protection
0:36:41 > 0:36:43against assault, the same as adults.
0:36:43 > 0:36:45I think that is entirely the right thing to do.
0:36:45 > 0:36:47I think it entirely chimes with our approach on protecting
0:36:47 > 0:36:49and nurturing and supporting children, which is what
0:36:49 > 0:36:52we are trying to do, and I am sure is the country
0:36:52 > 0:36:55that we want to live in and bring our children up in.
0:36:55 > 0:36:57It's not the only thing you're trying to do,
0:36:57 > 0:37:00because you are also, it seems suspended for the moment,
0:37:00 > 0:37:02you have this person scheme, which there was a lot of criticism
0:37:02 > 0:37:05of, where an adult from outside the family is given responsibility
0:37:05 > 0:37:07for a child in the family.
0:37:07 > 0:37:09Let's just recall where the named person scheme idea came from.
0:37:09 > 0:37:12And that came from catalogues of abuse and indeed deaths
0:37:12 > 0:37:14of children, small children, babies and others, where at the end
0:37:14 > 0:37:18of yet another enquiry about how could that happen,
0:37:18 > 0:37:21one of the core things that was always concluded was that
0:37:21 > 0:37:26one agency didn't tell another agency about what they saw going on.
0:37:26 > 0:37:30And the idea of the named person is to offer that opportunity both
0:37:30 > 0:37:34for the family to have support, but for the agencies to work
0:37:34 > 0:37:38properly together in order to protect children.
0:37:38 > 0:37:41Now, what we have done, the courts made a decision
0:37:41 > 0:37:45which said that our intention as a government was fine,
0:37:45 > 0:37:47was correct, but that there were difficulties around how
0:37:47 > 0:37:51we were going to implement that, that we had to resolve.
0:37:51 > 0:37:54And that is what we have gone away and done and are
0:37:54 > 0:37:57coming back on that.
0:37:57 > 0:38:02So I don't think that you can dredge up those issues around named person
0:38:02 > 0:38:07when the core of it is absolutely the correct thing to do,
0:38:07 > 0:38:11and say that that is the same, and that is a wrong headed
0:38:11 > 0:38:12move to go.
0:38:12 > 0:38:18I agree that parents are the right people,
0:38:18 > 0:38:20they know their children and they should be able
0:38:20 > 0:38:23to bring their children up.
0:38:23 > 0:38:26But I don't think it is right, in this day and age,
0:38:26 > 0:38:29for us to have a situation where, as an adult I am protected,
0:38:29 > 0:38:34but as a child I would not be.
0:38:34 > 0:38:35I think that is wrong.
0:38:35 > 0:38:37The woman on the gangway.
0:38:37 > 0:38:39I am a qualified social worker, qualified for over 20 years.
0:38:39 > 0:38:43Every social worker would support the principles about getting it
0:38:43 > 0:38:45right for every child, but how do you expect social
0:38:45 > 0:38:49workers to support this?
0:38:49 > 0:38:51I am an advanced child protection professional.
0:38:51 > 0:38:54I work in conjunction with police a lot.
0:38:54 > 0:38:58There are laws in place at present to protect children.
0:38:58 > 0:39:00But in terms of supporting that, when families don't have allocated
0:39:00 > 0:39:05social workers at present, when vulnerable people are at risk,
0:39:05 > 0:39:08it's just unsustainable to have these types of laws and expect
0:39:08 > 0:39:13professionals to be able to make them meaningful.
0:39:13 > 0:39:19You think you would have to make the not smacking law work?
0:39:19 > 0:39:21It would be down to people like yourself?
0:39:21 > 0:39:24It would have to be effective, it would have to mean something.
0:39:24 > 0:39:27It's like the law around smoking in cars with children.
0:39:27 > 0:39:29How is that policed?
0:39:29 > 0:39:31Whether it's emotional harm, physical harm.
0:39:31 > 0:39:34I support the principle and I absolutely advocate
0:39:34 > 0:39:37as a professional that no child should ever be smacked.
0:39:37 > 0:39:40But policing that and equipping social workers, you need
0:39:40 > 0:39:42to have a million more of us to support families
0:39:42 > 0:39:46to make it meaningful.
0:39:46 > 0:39:48APPLAUSE
0:39:48 > 0:39:50The man at the very back.
0:39:50 > 0:39:54When me and my wife were talking about having kids, I said, "Right,
0:39:54 > 0:39:57"I'll be the authoritarian and I'll be doing all the smacking".
0:39:57 > 0:40:00Luckily my wife talked me round and I've enjoyed every year
0:40:00 > 0:40:03since my children have showed up.
0:40:03 > 0:40:07I totally disagree with smacking children, but I think the SNP have
0:40:07 > 0:40:11totally got this wrong and that this is unnecessary and we should be
0:40:11 > 0:40:14thinking about more serious things and getting on with the job
0:40:14 > 0:40:18of running a government.
0:40:18 > 0:40:22APPLAUSE
0:40:22 > 0:40:25I actually think that assaulting children is a pretty serious thing,
0:40:25 > 0:40:30and what we're trying to do here is to equalise the law.
0:40:30 > 0:40:33Adults have protection from assault, children currently don't.
0:40:33 > 0:40:36I think we have to be very careful about the language that we use here.
0:40:36 > 0:40:40We are not banning smacking.
0:40:40 > 0:40:43Your kitchen is not going to be raided by police officers
0:40:43 > 0:40:46because you have pulled your kid away from a hot pan
0:40:46 > 0:40:47and tapped them on the bum.
0:40:47 > 0:40:48That's not what this is about.
0:40:48 > 0:40:50It's the reality of saying...
0:40:50 > 0:40:51That is what it's about.
0:40:51 > 0:40:52I'm afraid it's not.
0:40:52 > 0:40:55You seem to have lost the support of a lot of people here.
0:40:55 > 0:40:58Look, in the last parliament I was the education spokesperson
0:40:58 > 0:40:59for the Labour Party, and all the children's
0:40:59 > 0:41:01charities in Scotland came to me and said,
0:41:01 > 0:41:04"We must do this, there are a number of children at risk,
0:41:04 > 0:41:06"it is the right thing to do".
0:41:06 > 0:41:09I bottled it because I was so aware of how it would be perceived
0:41:09 > 0:41:12as people interfering in family life, much as the debate around
0:41:12 > 0:41:13the named person thing has become.
0:41:13 > 0:41:16What the government is trying to do is the right thing
0:41:16 > 0:41:17by vulnerable children.
0:41:17 > 0:41:19This is the argument that we are faced with again,
0:41:19 > 0:41:21and I think it's a very important move.
0:41:21 > 0:41:24This is a bill coming forward from a Green MSP.
0:41:24 > 0:41:25The SNP aren't going to oppose it.
0:41:25 > 0:41:27The Labour Party are supporting it.
0:41:27 > 0:41:29I have personally signed John Finney's bill, the guy that
0:41:29 > 0:41:30brought this forward.
0:41:30 > 0:41:32I think he's very brave to.
0:41:32 > 0:41:34If just bringing forward that bill forces some people
0:41:34 > 0:41:36to rethink their behaviour and rethink how they approach
0:41:36 > 0:41:39their children in a physical way, I think that's a good thing.
0:41:39 > 0:41:42And I'm sorry if that's not a popular view.
0:41:42 > 0:41:45It's my job to stand up and represent and look
0:41:45 > 0:41:47after vulnerable children in Scotland, and I believe that's
0:41:47 > 0:41:49what we're doing with the ban.
0:41:49 > 0:41:50You, sir.
0:41:50 > 0:41:55APPLAUSE
0:41:55 > 0:41:58You're saying it's perceived kind of influence in family life,
0:41:58 > 0:42:00and I don't think it is perceived.
0:42:00 > 0:42:03I'm not a parent, I just got married in July,
0:42:03 > 0:42:05but I feel like parents are concerned about it.
0:42:05 > 0:42:09Much like the named person's policy.
0:42:09 > 0:42:10Parents are concerned.
0:42:10 > 0:42:13Why should the parents trust the Scottish Government that
0:42:13 > 0:42:15doesn't seem to trust them to raise their children?
0:42:15 > 0:42:16I think they are very valid concerns.
0:42:16 > 0:42:17APPLAUSE
0:42:17 > 0:42:19Daniel Hannan.
0:42:19 > 0:42:22I think there is an immense difference between disapproving
0:42:22 > 0:42:26of something and wanting to ban it.
0:42:26 > 0:42:30And in that difference lies the entirety of a free society.
0:42:30 > 0:42:33For what it's worth, physical correction of children
0:42:33 > 0:42:35is in decline in almost every Western country, in Scotland
0:42:35 > 0:42:39and in the rest of the UK.
0:42:39 > 0:42:42It's in decline, as mores change, values change, the same way
0:42:42 > 0:42:44that the earlier question referred to attitudes towards
0:42:44 > 0:42:45women in the workplace.
0:42:45 > 0:42:47But what we are talking about here is bringing
0:42:47 > 0:42:54the full force of law in, as we heard from the social worker
0:42:54 > 0:42:55lady there, an unarguable objection.
0:42:55 > 0:42:57This is an unenforceable piece of legislation,
0:42:57 > 0:42:58so why is it being passed?
0:42:58 > 0:43:01It's being passed because lawmakers reach for legislation,
0:43:01 > 0:43:04almost always as their first recourse, to show what nice people
0:43:04 > 0:43:06they are, to show how concerned they are,
0:43:06 > 0:43:09to show they are on the side of the kids and so on, without any
0:43:09 > 0:43:12thought for the practical unenforceability of it.
0:43:12 > 0:43:15And the worst possible reason to pass a law is as a kind of state
0:43:15 > 0:43:17amplified virtue signalling.
0:43:17 > 0:43:21We should be proportionate in what we do and we should
0:43:21 > 0:43:23recognise that the best unit, not just of conveying
0:43:23 > 0:43:25values, but of health care, social security
0:43:25 > 0:43:27and education, is the family.
0:43:27 > 0:43:32APPLAUSE
0:43:32 > 0:43:36Virtue signalling, Owen Jones.
0:43:36 > 0:43:39I'm worried I'm going to be a victim of a parents' uprising here,
0:43:39 > 0:43:40so I'm going to be careful.
0:43:40 > 0:43:43I do tend to side, I have to say, with the Scottish
0:43:43 > 0:43:44Government on this.
0:43:44 > 0:43:47Britain is actually an outlier overall, one of only four countries
0:43:47 > 0:43:49where it's legal to do this.
0:43:49 > 0:43:52In terms of virtue signalling, I don't like that phrase.
0:43:52 > 0:43:55Virtue signalling is a term which is used against anyone
0:43:55 > 0:43:58who cares about anything other than just themselves in society,
0:43:58 > 0:44:00so I don't like that term.
0:44:00 > 0:44:03I think the idea that parents are all going to be locked up
0:44:03 > 0:44:05and incarcerated under this law is for the birds.
0:44:05 > 0:44:09I do think it will send a signal that this isn't the right or correct
0:44:09 > 0:44:10way to discipline children.
0:44:10 > 0:44:13I think most parents when they slap a child would accept
0:44:13 > 0:44:15it is a failure, actually.
0:44:15 > 0:44:18Also, I worry that slapping children passes on a message that
0:44:18 > 0:44:22that is the way you resolve problems and difficulties and
0:44:22 > 0:44:25challenges as adults.
0:44:25 > 0:44:28So on that basis, I think it works in other European countries.
0:44:28 > 0:44:31You don't see the mass incarceration of parents over there.
0:44:31 > 0:44:34I think we should just get into line, if you like, with where
0:44:34 > 0:44:35they are in the 21st-century.
0:44:35 > 0:44:37But I realise I'm in a minority in this audience.
0:44:37 > 0:44:39OK.
0:44:39 > 0:44:42Now, I'm in a difficulty here because we haven't got that
0:44:42 > 0:44:45much time left and I wanted to get in two more questions.
0:44:45 > 0:44:49Let me take this one first of all from Catherine Bryce, please.
0:44:49 > 0:44:52Why, as a Scot, should I be in the position of possibly having
0:44:52 > 0:44:56to pay more income tax than the rest of the UK?
0:44:56 > 0:45:02APPLAUSE
0:45:02 > 0:45:06I should explain that the First Minister of Scotland today outlined
0:45:06 > 0:45:08proposals for tax rises which the government
0:45:08 > 0:45:13here intends to put across, ranging from 1% to something like 5p
0:45:13 > 0:45:16in the pound if you are earning over £150,000.
0:45:16 > 0:45:18But your question is, why should you pay more
0:45:18 > 0:45:21than the rest of the UK, is that right?
0:45:21 > 0:45:23Why do you think you shouldn't?
0:45:23 > 0:45:26Well, I think there's other things that could be...
0:45:26 > 0:45:29Am I being asked to pay more tax because of the amount of free
0:45:29 > 0:45:32universal services that we have in Scotland that don't exist
0:45:32 > 0:45:35in the rest of the UK?
0:45:35 > 0:45:39Are all of these of an appropriate value to justify that?
0:45:39 > 0:45:42I would suggest some of them aren't.
0:45:42 > 0:45:45I think some hard decisions need to be made around that.
0:45:45 > 0:45:48Some hard decisions about public spending against taxation.
0:45:48 > 0:45:51Public spending against taxation, but in particular all these free
0:45:51 > 0:45:54universal services that we have in Scotland that don't exist
0:45:54 > 0:45:58in the rest of the UK, like free prescriptions etc.
0:45:58 > 0:46:02And you'd rather not have them or not pay for them?
0:46:02 > 0:46:06I don't think I should be paying more tax to get these.
0:46:06 > 0:46:07Kezia Dugdale, what do you think of it?
0:46:07 > 0:46:09As a proposal?
0:46:09 > 0:46:12I'm a bit cynical about this at the moment, because I fought four
0:46:12 > 0:46:17elections against Nicola Sturgeon's SNP, where she has opposed raising
0:46:17 > 0:46:20taxes to protect public services, and the Labour Party has advocated
0:46:20 > 0:46:24having progressive taxes to invest more in public services,
0:46:24 > 0:46:27so Nicola Sturgeon stands up today and suddenly says she's
0:46:27 > 0:46:29all for progressive taxes.
0:46:29 > 0:46:31I find it a bit rich, to be honest.
0:46:31 > 0:46:34The reality is it's because she's lost her majority
0:46:34 > 0:46:37in the Scottish Government and she's having to cook up some sort of plan,
0:46:37 > 0:46:40probably with the Greens, to stop us having to vote
0:46:40 > 0:46:41again next year.
0:46:41 > 0:46:44Let's talk about what this is really about and why it matters.
0:46:44 > 0:46:46We have a decision to make.
0:46:46 > 0:46:49We are faced with austerity coming from Westminster, yes,
0:46:49 > 0:46:51but we now have an immensely powerful Scottish Parliament
0:46:51 > 0:46:56where we can choose, if we want, to do things differently.
0:46:56 > 0:46:58That allowed us to have tuition fees, free personal care,
0:46:58 > 0:47:02free prescription charges, a massive expansion of childcare,
0:47:02 > 0:47:05free bus passes, but it's not really free, is it?
0:47:05 > 0:47:08We are all paying for it.
0:47:08 > 0:47:10And the price of that has seen a reduction in college places,
0:47:10 > 0:47:15cancer waiting times running amock, well over what you are entitled to,
0:47:15 > 0:47:17and these are the choices that governments are faced with.
0:47:17 > 0:47:20If we want to keep all these three things, if we believe
0:47:20 > 0:47:23in high-quality universal public services, we have to talk
0:47:23 > 0:47:25about who pays for them.
0:47:25 > 0:47:29I pay less tax down than I did five years ago because the Tories gave
0:47:29 > 0:47:31people who are on my wage a tax cut.
0:47:31 > 0:47:34That's not fair, when libraries are being closed and children's
0:47:34 > 0:47:35centres are getting closed down.
0:47:35 > 0:47:38Let's choose to do things differently.
0:47:38 > 0:47:40APPLAUSE.
0:47:40 > 0:47:41Daniel.
0:47:41 > 0:47:45I'm delighted that Kezia got a tax cut, but so did everybody else.
0:47:45 > 0:47:46She phrased that as though it was...
0:47:46 > 0:47:48Doesn't make it any better though, does it?
0:47:48 > 0:47:51But you were implying that it was only a tax cut...
0:47:51 > 0:47:53People can't feed themselves and I got a tax cut.
0:47:53 > 0:47:54You think that's right?!
0:47:54 > 0:47:56Come back to the main point, as a Scot...
0:47:56 > 0:47:59Hang on, as a Scot, Kezia Dugdale has made the point why
0:47:59 > 0:48:01she thinks it's right.
0:48:01 > 0:48:04Catherine Brice has said, as a Scot, why should I pay more tax
0:48:04 > 0:48:06than the rest of the UK?
0:48:06 > 0:48:07Daniel.
0:48:07 > 0:48:09Well, it's good to have a strong relationship between taxation,
0:48:09 > 0:48:10representation and expenditure.
0:48:10 > 0:48:13And, under the old system in Scotland, there was a limited
0:48:13 > 0:48:18linkage between those things, because the taxation
0:48:18 > 0:48:21was largely done at a UK level and there was an imperfect link
0:48:21 > 0:48:22between what the devolved administration was spending
0:48:22 > 0:48:25and what it was raising.
0:48:25 > 0:48:29Now, I look at the referendum result from 2014 and it seems to be
0:48:29 > 0:48:32the only fair way of interpreting a 55-45 vote is to say, if we're
0:48:32 > 0:48:36going to build a new consensus, it has to be on the basis
0:48:36 > 0:48:40of something in between, so more devolution within the UK.
0:48:40 > 0:48:43It will go too far for some people, it won't go far enough for others,
0:48:43 > 0:48:46but part of that must be a measure, a greater measure of fiscal
0:48:46 > 0:48:49autonomy in Scotland, and I think that would be a good
0:48:49 > 0:48:52thing for Scotland, it would be a good thing
0:48:52 > 0:48:54for the whole of the UK, actually, because the closer
0:48:54 > 0:48:57the politicians are who are spending money on our behalf,
0:48:57 > 0:48:59the more careful we tend to be about it, the more
0:48:59 > 0:49:01we hold them to account.
0:49:01 > 0:49:04If Catherine doesn't like being taxed more for living here,
0:49:04 > 0:49:06the solution is in her hands.
0:49:06 > 0:49:09She can vote for Ruth Davidson and have a lower tax Scotland
0:49:09 > 0:49:11and we can actually have tax competition within the UK
0:49:11 > 0:49:13and downward pressure on rates.
0:49:13 > 0:49:14Wouldn't that be wonderful?
0:49:14 > 0:49:16Or you could move south, I think you said.
0:49:16 > 0:49:18Owen Jones.
0:49:18 > 0:49:21My dad's a very ill cancer patient in Edinburgh at the moment,
0:49:21 > 0:49:24and the Scottish NHS doesn't have the resources that it needs,
0:49:24 > 0:49:28partly because of a lack of money.
0:49:28 > 0:49:31If those at the top of Scottish society end up paying a bit more
0:49:31 > 0:49:34tax, then that's a good thing, because you can invest
0:49:34 > 0:49:37in services like the NHS for the good of my dad and,
0:49:37 > 0:49:39no doubt, many of your own relatives.
0:49:39 > 0:49:41The reality is this, and this is about Scotland
0:49:41 > 0:49:42and the rest of the country.
0:49:42 > 0:49:45A few years ago, the financial elite plunged us into a very,
0:49:45 > 0:49:48very bad disaster, and they got away with it.
0:49:48 > 0:49:51They carried on paying more bonuses than every European
0:49:51 > 0:49:53country put together, whilst working people
0:49:53 > 0:49:56suffered the longest squeeze in wages for generations.
0:49:56 > 0:49:59We've had the worst fall in wages now of any EU
0:49:59 > 0:50:01country other than Greece.
0:50:01 > 0:50:04We don't have the housing, the affordable, decent,
0:50:04 > 0:50:06comfortable housing that millions of people are denied.
0:50:06 > 0:50:08The NHS in England was plunged into a humanitarian crisis,
0:50:08 > 0:50:10according to the British Red Cross.
0:50:10 > 0:50:13Most people in poverty are in work, earning
0:50:13 > 0:50:15their poverty every single day.
0:50:15 > 0:50:17Can you come to the point that's being made?
0:50:17 > 0:50:20This is a social order which is bankrupt,
0:50:20 > 0:50:23because the richest people in society are not paying their fair
0:50:23 > 0:50:29share, whilst millions of people are paying...
0:50:29 > 0:50:30APPLAUSE DROWNS SPEECH.
0:50:30 > 0:50:31OK.
0:50:31 > 0:50:34But the question, I'll come to you on this,
0:50:34 > 0:50:38and could you stick to the point about Scotland as against the rest
0:50:38 > 0:50:39of the UK, which was the question.
0:50:39 > 0:50:43If you can precis it a bit, I'd be grateful because I want to get
0:50:43 > 0:50:44one more question in.
0:50:44 > 0:50:47There's a number of reasons, I think, and one of them is
0:50:47 > 0:50:51the quality of our public services.
0:50:51 > 0:50:54Please let me finish, and the points that Kezia made,
0:50:54 > 0:50:57in terms of what we receive in return for the taxes that we pay,
0:50:57 > 0:50:59and those are significant expansion in childcare,
0:50:59 > 0:51:07free prescriptions, free bus travel, free personal and nursing care,
0:51:07 > 0:51:10which we will extend to those who are under 65 in
0:51:10 > 0:51:13certain conditions.
0:51:13 > 0:51:16Now, what we have produced today is a set of options
0:51:16 > 0:51:23of what we could do with the limited income tax powers that we have.
0:51:23 > 0:51:25Yes, you could vote for Ruth Davidson but,
0:51:25 > 0:51:29if you voted for her tax options, what you would see is a tax cut
0:51:29 > 0:51:31for the top 10% of earners and £140 million taken out
0:51:31 > 0:51:34of the Scottish budget for public services or for any
0:51:34 > 0:51:41level of expenditure.
0:51:41 > 0:51:46That is what the Conservatives are offering.
0:51:46 > 0:51:50And Kezia Dugdale's point, yes, she has argued for this,
0:51:50 > 0:51:54but what we have said before is that the option that Labour
0:51:54 > 0:51:57was producing was an option that affected those who were poorly off
0:51:57 > 0:52:03as well as everyone else, and it was a pretty blunt instrument.
0:52:03 > 0:52:05What about the 50p top rate?
0:52:05 > 0:52:06You opposed that.
0:52:06 > 0:52:07We've brought forward a series of options.
0:52:07 > 0:52:10We've costed what the other parties want to propose.
0:52:10 > 0:52:16And the idea of this is that we try and reach a shared view in
0:52:16 > 0:52:21that parliament about the best way to use those tax
0:52:21 > 0:52:26powers, meeting four important tests, and clearly,
0:52:26 > 0:52:28if you read the paper, 50% of income tax payers under any
0:52:28 > 0:52:31of those options that we've put forward would not pay more tax.
0:52:31 > 0:52:34But the point is, and this power to increase taxation has
0:52:34 > 0:52:38been for a long time, you are not averse to using it
0:52:38 > 0:52:41and making Scotland a more heavily taxed place than the rest of the UK?
0:52:41 > 0:52:43That's the nub of the question.
0:52:43 > 0:52:46You're not against that.
0:52:46 > 0:52:49No, the point of having powers is to use them when you can
0:52:49 > 0:52:51use them effectively, and we've put forward a series
0:52:51 > 0:52:55of options where we believe that people should be able to choose
0:52:55 > 0:53:00between those in order to have the investment in public
0:53:00 > 0:53:07services and infrastructure and economic growth that Scotland
0:53:07 > 0:53:09needs, all the more so because, if I may, David,
0:53:09 > 0:53:13because of the impact of Brexit, which was not there over a year ago.
0:53:13 > 0:53:18That is the case.
0:53:18 > 0:53:19All right.
0:53:19 > 0:53:20APPLAUSE
0:53:20 > 0:53:22The man there, on the gangway.
0:53:22 > 0:53:26Quickly, if you would.
0:53:26 > 0:53:28How can we create investment in Scotland if we are
0:53:28 > 0:53:30the highest taxed in the UK?
0:53:30 > 0:53:31It seems like the wrong message.
0:53:31 > 0:53:33Anne McElvoy.
0:53:33 > 0:53:36The short answer to the lady's question really is that the deficit
0:53:36 > 0:53:39in Scotland is three times, over three times what it is in
0:53:39 > 0:53:43the UK as a whole, and this has been a high spending country.
0:53:43 > 0:53:47Yes, it is true.
0:53:47 > 0:53:48The UK deficit.
0:53:48 > 0:53:51The UK's deficit, that's what I've said.
0:53:51 > 0:53:53But the point that you've tried to bring out,
0:53:53 > 0:53:55that the lady was asking, was, why should she be
0:53:55 > 0:53:56more highly taxed.
0:53:56 > 0:54:02I'm pleased you are beginning to use tax-raising powers.
0:54:02 > 0:54:05I think, if you've got them, you might as well use them.
0:54:05 > 0:54:07I wondered how long it was going to take,
0:54:07 > 0:54:10because Nicola Sturgeon wasn't looking that keen to do so.
0:54:10 > 0:54:11We have already used them.
0:54:11 > 0:54:13I know that you've used them in a limited way,
0:54:13 > 0:54:16but this is now getting rather more serious and it is coming
0:54:16 > 0:54:19through to people that some people are going to pay more tax.
0:54:19 > 0:54:21You can either continue to spend at these levels,
0:54:21 > 0:54:23but what is really missing for me is any talk...
0:54:23 > 0:54:25You are talking about superior public services.
0:54:25 > 0:54:28To be honest, as a former policy editor, I don't really see them
0:54:28 > 0:54:30in lots of places in Scotland.
0:54:30 > 0:54:35I think, in health and education, there are big structural challenges.
0:54:35 > 0:54:38Outperforms the UK in health.
0:54:38 > 0:54:40Certainly, there is not in education, as you well know.
0:54:40 > 0:54:42A lot of the results are going backwards.
0:54:42 > 0:54:43What is your point?
0:54:43 > 0:54:44More taxation is needed?
0:54:44 > 0:54:47Either spend more money and raise more money and go honestly
0:54:47 > 0:54:50to the people of Scotland and say that's what you're going
0:54:50 > 0:54:51to do and expand that.
0:54:51 > 0:54:53I think that's a good thing, it's a devolutionary principle.
0:54:53 > 0:54:56But then you have to take it on the chin that people will not
0:54:56 > 0:54:59necessarily think they are getting value for money, and you need
0:54:59 > 0:55:02to address why not, because there is a lack of reform
0:55:02 > 0:55:03in the public services in Scotland.
0:55:03 > 0:55:05I don't think it's a big secret.
0:55:05 > 0:55:07Can we at least allow the possibility that putting rates
0:55:07 > 0:55:09up is going to diminish revenue?
0:55:09 > 0:55:11When, for example, the corporation tax rate was cut, the amount
0:55:11 > 0:55:14of money that came into the Treasury hugely went up as business
0:55:14 > 0:55:17increased its activity.
0:55:17 > 0:55:21The cut in the top rate of tax led to the richest people paying more
0:55:21 > 0:55:23in both absolute and relative terms.
0:55:23 > 0:55:27There comes a point when you put tax up to a level that your revenue
0:55:27 > 0:55:30begins to fall, and I think that's a lesson that the SNP
0:55:30 > 0:55:31may be about to learn.
0:55:31 > 0:55:33Yes, you, sir.
0:55:33 > 0:55:40In 2005, the Kerr report was published.
0:55:40 > 0:55:41Jeane knows about it.
0:55:41 > 0:55:44She was political adviser at the Labour Party at the time.
0:55:44 > 0:55:46The report said at that time that the NHS was struggling
0:55:46 > 0:55:49for money, long before anybody had ever heard of Brexit,
0:55:49 > 0:55:52so why have 12 years gone by and all of a sudden it's time
0:55:52 > 0:55:53to make tough decisions?
0:55:53 > 0:55:54It's laughable.
0:55:54 > 0:55:55And you, sir?
0:55:55 > 0:55:57Very quick, if you would.
0:55:57 > 0:55:59We can go around all the houses with this but, once again,
0:55:59 > 0:56:01Scotland has been used as a guinea pig.
0:56:01 > 0:56:04We had the dreaded poll tax in the 70s and now
0:56:04 > 0:56:05we are getting income tax.
0:56:05 > 0:56:06We are being used again.
0:56:06 > 0:56:09We've got a minute left for this last question,
0:56:09 > 0:56:10but I think we should have it.
0:56:10 > 0:56:11Alex Young.
0:56:11 > 0:56:15Where are you?
0:56:15 > 0:56:17Should our present Prime Minister, Theresa May, be replaced
0:56:17 > 0:56:27by our ex-one, Ruth Davidson?
0:56:27 > 0:56:29-- our excellent.
0:56:29 > 0:56:30Just very briefly, Daniel Hannan.
0:56:30 > 0:56:32He is the only Conservative on the panel.
0:56:32 > 0:56:34There are huge numbers of talented Conservatives
0:56:34 > 0:56:37inside and outside the Cabinet, and Ruth is one of them.
0:56:37 > 0:56:38OK.
0:56:38 > 0:56:40I think she'd be a very welcome Scottish export at Westminster.
0:56:40 > 0:56:42I think there may be a vacancy.
0:56:42 > 0:56:45The question is, does she want to leave this
0:56:45 > 0:56:47lovely land of yours?
0:56:47 > 0:56:49I think she should tell us, don't you?
0:56:49 > 0:56:50Owen, briefly.
0:56:50 > 0:56:53I'm sorry, but I don't think it matters to the Tories
0:56:53 > 0:56:55replace their leader with at present.
0:56:58 > 0:57:01APPLAUSE.
0:57:01 > 0:57:04Ruth is a Tory, I don't think it matters much either,
0:57:04 > 0:57:06except that I wouldn't have to listen to her
0:57:06 > 0:57:08waffling every week.
0:57:08 > 0:57:12APPLAUSE.
0:57:12 > 0:57:15I think she is a marginally, and I say marginally,
0:57:15 > 0:57:18better choice than Boris Johnson.
0:57:18 > 0:57:20LAUGHTER.
0:57:20 > 0:57:21Thank you very much.
0:57:21 > 0:57:28On which controversial note, our time is up.
0:57:28 > 0:57:30Next Thursday, Question Time is going to be in Croydon.
0:57:30 > 0:57:34On the panel, among others, the Education Secretary,
0:57:34 > 0:57:38Justine Greening, the television presenter and property expert
0:57:38 > 0:57:40expert Kirsty Allsopp, and the spoken word artist George
0:57:40 > 0:57:42the poet, known to you all.
0:57:42 > 0:57:44Well, he will be by next Thursday.
0:57:44 > 0:57:46Call this number if you'd like to come.
0:57:46 > 0:57:46Call this number if you'd like to come.
0:57:46 > 0:57:49On the screen is the address you can go to.
0:57:49 > 0:57:59Question Time Extra Time, as you know, follows now
0:58:00 > 0:58:02if you are listening on Radio 5 Live.
0:58:02 > 0:58:03My thanks to this panel.
0:58:03 > 0:58:06My great thanks to all of you who came to Kilmarnock
0:58:06 > 0:58:08tonight to take part.
0:58:08 > 0:58:13Until next Thursday, from Question Time, good night.