0:00:06 > 0:00:12Tonight we're in Croydon and welcome to Question Time.
0:00:16 > 0:00:19With us here...
0:00:19 > 0:00:22The Secretary of State for Education, Justine Greening,
0:00:22 > 0:00:27who's also a Minister for Women and Equality.
0:00:27 > 0:00:29One of the MPs leading the fight to reform the culture
0:00:29 > 0:00:37at Westminster, Labour's Stella Creasy.
0:00:37 > 0:00:39The star of television's Location, Location, Location the property
0:00:39 > 0:00:40expert, Kirstie Allsopp.
0:00:40 > 0:00:46The Guardian writer on economics, Aditya Chakrabortty,
0:00:46 > 0:00:49who this week dished up the details on how the rich use tax
0:00:49 > 0:00:50havens to get richer.
0:00:50 > 0:00:53And claiming this is largely resented because the rich can do it
0:00:53 > 0:00:56and the rest of us can't, the columnist of the Daily Telegraph
0:00:56 > 0:00:58and the Spectator, Charles Moore.
0:00:58 > 0:01:07APPLAUSE
0:01:07 > 0:01:11And just a reminder - thank you very much -
0:01:11 > 0:01:13a reminder at home, if you want to get involved
0:01:13 > 0:01:19in the argument, you can argue along using our #bbcqt either Facebook
0:01:19 > 0:01:23or Twitter or you can text us 83981, push the Red Button to see
0:01:23 > 0:01:24what others are saying.
0:01:24 > 0:01:26Now our first question tonight is from Gemma Collins, please.
0:01:26 > 0:01:27Gemma Collins.
0:01:27 > 0:01:31In light of recent events, can Theresa May still call her
0:01:31 > 0:01:33government strong and stable?
0:01:33 > 0:01:36Can Theresa May still call her government strong and stable?
0:01:36 > 0:01:37Stella Creasy.
0:01:37 > 0:01:40No.
0:01:40 > 0:01:44APPLAUSE
0:01:44 > 0:01:47But this is the terribly sad thing, isn't it, because actually this
0:01:47 > 0:01:52is our country and this chaos is affecting all of our lives.
0:01:52 > 0:01:56It's not just about the lack of grip over where the direction
0:01:56 > 0:01:58of the country is going, it's all the every day issues that
0:01:58 > 0:01:59aren't being dealt with.
0:01:59 > 0:02:03Whether it is the rising inequality in our society.
0:02:03 > 0:02:12Whether it is the issues in our schools, in terms
0:02:12 > 0:02:15of their funding - I'm sure Justine would have a word on that.
0:02:15 > 0:02:17I talk to teachers who are now paying for
0:02:17 > 0:02:18supplies in their schools.
0:02:18 > 0:02:21I talk to police officers in London desperately worried about the fact
0:02:21 > 0:02:22we're losing 3,000 officers from our streets.
0:02:22 > 0:02:25These are all big challenges that we have to deal
0:02:25 > 0:02:27with and instead what's happening is the backbenches of
0:02:27 > 0:02:29the Conservative Party are defining all of our shared futures.
0:02:29 > 0:02:32So people may laugh, but I am desperately worried about this.
0:02:32 > 0:02:40Let be very, very clear about this because if Theresa May wants
0:02:40 > 0:02:43to accept what we all know is inevitable and that she needs
0:02:43 > 0:02:46to throw-in the towel, there's certainly many of us
0:02:46 > 0:02:48certainly who would like to step up, called Labour, to run this country
0:02:48 > 0:02:51instead and fight for the future of this country.
0:02:51 > 0:02:52APPLAUSE
0:02:52 > 0:02:54She should throw in the towel, Justine Greening?
0:02:54 > 0:02:55I totally disagree.
0:02:55 > 0:02:58I think the bottom line is that we're a government that is steering
0:02:58 > 0:03:00this country through a very difficult Brexit negotiation,
0:03:00 > 0:03:02but alongside that we have a domestic agenda that is also
0:03:02 > 0:03:06shifting our country in the right direction.
0:03:06 > 0:03:09You mentioned education, Stella, well there are now 1.8 million more
0:03:09 > 0:03:13children in good or outstanding schools, including some here
0:03:13 > 0:03:16in Croydon, than there were in 2010.
0:03:16 > 0:03:20When you look at people's take home pay, we've taken millions of people
0:03:20 > 0:03:23out of paying tax altogether and raised the personal allowance
0:03:23 > 0:03:27for around 30 million people.
0:03:27 > 0:03:30We've got more people in work than we've had for many years
0:03:30 > 0:03:33and an unemployment rate that's about half the Eurozone average.
0:03:33 > 0:03:36What I'm saying is that people are in jobs and in work.
0:03:36 > 0:03:37The economy's doing well.
0:03:37 > 0:03:40I'm also saying that when we look ahead to the future,
0:03:40 > 0:03:42we're making sure that our young people are coming through
0:03:42 > 0:03:44the education system with the educational skills
0:03:44 > 0:03:45that they need...
0:03:45 > 0:03:46All right, OK.
0:03:46 > 0:03:47Let me just...
0:03:47 > 0:03:49Hang on, hang on both of you.
0:03:49 > 0:03:52Let me just ask Gemma Collins what she meant by the question.
0:03:52 > 0:04:01I mean, like, with regards to her not even to have a stable
0:04:01 > 0:04:03Cabinet together and people leaving, distrust.
0:04:03 > 0:04:05They're arguing with each other and not focussing
0:04:05 > 0:04:05on what's actually happening?
0:04:05 > 0:04:08When Justine Greening gives you a list of statistics
0:04:08 > 0:04:09about things, does that not convince you?
0:04:09 > 0:04:10Not really, no.
0:04:10 > 0:04:12Not really, OK.
0:04:12 > 0:04:14When in the news something's happening every single week,
0:04:14 > 0:04:15every day, another problem.
0:04:15 > 0:04:16It's just...
0:04:16 > 0:04:18It's all noise just to cover it up.
0:04:18 > 0:04:20Justine, I'll come back to you.
0:04:20 > 0:04:21Kirstie Allsopp.
0:04:21 > 0:04:24I think the point you made, Gemma, about the news is very interesting.
0:04:24 > 0:04:26We're living in a very different news environment than we've
0:04:26 > 0:04:28ever lived in before.
0:04:28 > 0:04:32When I came on Question Time for the first time, eight years ago,
0:04:32 > 0:04:34Twitter didn't exist.
0:04:34 > 0:04:37The social media world in which we exist today does give us
0:04:37 > 0:04:40a sense of being destabilised.
0:04:40 > 0:04:44Things seem to be happening every day that we can't keep up with.
0:04:44 > 0:04:46What, like two Cabinet ministers resigning in a week?
0:04:46 > 0:04:50OK!
0:04:50 > 0:04:52APPLAUSE
0:04:52 > 0:04:54Point taken, David.
0:04:54 > 0:04:57There are two totally different issues here.
0:04:57 > 0:04:58One Cabinet Minister resigned for one reason
0:04:58 > 0:04:59and another for another reason.
0:04:59 > 0:05:03And they are...
0:05:03 > 0:05:05I don't think they relate either of them to Theresa May's
0:05:05 > 0:05:07current government.
0:05:07 > 0:05:09They are two separate issues, which we could discuss further.
0:05:09 > 0:05:12OK, Charles Moore.
0:05:12 > 0:05:16No, I think they do both relate to Theresa May's government
0:05:16 > 0:05:19because President LB Johnson said that the first skill a politician
0:05:19 > 0:05:21has to have is arithmetic.
0:05:21 > 0:05:25What he meant by that was, you have to add up what votes you've
0:05:25 > 0:05:27got and see whether you can win.
0:05:27 > 0:05:30Of course because the Tories did much less well than expected
0:05:30 > 0:05:33in the election, they haven't got strong and stable government
0:05:33 > 0:05:34and they can't because the arithmetic doesn't work,
0:05:34 > 0:05:37it's very knife edge.
0:05:37 > 0:05:40However, I think Mrs May is making a mistake about how to deal
0:05:40 > 0:05:46with that because I think what you have to do, to your own
0:05:46 > 0:05:49team and to the country, is you have to sort of be upfront
0:05:49 > 0:05:51about that and say how difficult your position
0:05:51 > 0:05:54is and concentrate on the things that really matter and be
0:05:54 > 0:05:55strong about them.
0:05:55 > 0:05:58And say - look, this is what I believe in and this
0:05:58 > 0:05:59is what I'm going to do.
0:05:59 > 0:06:02What I feel that's not happening, particularly about Brexit,
0:06:02 > 0:06:08so we don't actually know what way we're actually going about it.
0:06:08 > 0:06:11And I think that what you see with the Government -
0:06:11 > 0:06:14and this comes from the top downwards, you can't blame the lower
0:06:14 > 0:06:16people for this really - is you see it's governed by fear.
0:06:16 > 0:06:20So what it's always thinking is - help, we're going to get into more
0:06:20 > 0:06:22trouble if we do this, so we'd better do that
0:06:22 > 0:06:24or we'd better not do this.
0:06:24 > 0:06:27So actually what's going on is it's room for manoeuvre
0:06:27 > 0:06:33is narrowing all the time.
0:06:33 > 0:06:34All right.
0:06:34 > 0:06:37I really do think that's a very unfortunate position to be in.
0:06:37 > 0:06:38Aditya, I'll come to you.
0:06:38 > 0:06:41Justine Greening, do you jsut want to answer Charles Moore's point
0:06:41 > 0:06:42as a fellow Conservative?
0:06:42 > 0:06:45Well, we are a minority Government, but I think in practice most
0:06:45 > 0:06:47of what we deliver on a day-to-day basis is on legislation that's
0:06:47 > 0:06:49already been passed.
0:06:49 > 0:06:51So, Gemma, I know I gave lots of statistics, but actually
0:06:51 > 0:07:01it's because I wanted to give you some actual facts of what we're
0:07:03 > 0:07:05achieving because I recognise sometimes, when we make our
0:07:05 > 0:07:08arguments, it's hard to frankly pull out what's really going on.
0:07:08 > 0:07:11So these are the facts of what we're doing on the ground
0:07:11 > 0:07:13and I absolutely, yes, you won't see many of them
0:07:13 > 0:07:17in the paper because they're good news, but what I'm saying,
0:07:17 > 0:07:20Charles is, what we see day-to-day is a government that is getting
0:07:20 > 0:07:21on with some substantial reform.
0:07:21 > 0:07:24If you look at what we're doing in education,
0:07:24 > 0:07:26on introducing T-levels, so that for the first time young
0:07:26 > 0:07:28people post-16 actually have some proper choices between not just
0:07:28 > 0:07:30an academic route, but a technical education route.
0:07:30 > 0:07:32Those things are actually happening on the ground
0:07:32 > 0:07:33and we're getting with that.
0:07:33 > 0:07:36They will make a profound improvement to the opportunities
0:07:36 > 0:07:38for our young people in the years to come.
0:07:38 > 0:07:39But the whole is so much weaker...
0:07:39 > 0:07:47It's weaker than the sum of the parts, if you see what I mean.
0:07:47 > 0:07:50The question is you always want to know of a government is -
0:07:50 > 0:07:51where are you leading our country?
0:07:51 > 0:07:54It's particularly true when we're about to make a massive change
0:07:54 > 0:07:56in the whole composition, constitution of our country.
0:07:56 > 0:07:58APPLAUSE
0:07:58 > 0:07:59We need to know now.
0:07:59 > 0:08:02We need to know really in the next three or four weeks.
0:08:02 > 0:08:05What are we going to do to achieve the Brexit we voted for?
0:08:05 > 0:08:06OK.
0:08:06 > 0:08:08You, sir, I'll come to you in a moment.
0:08:08 > 0:08:10Yes.
0:08:10 > 0:08:15The PM has failed to lead the country.
0:08:15 > 0:08:18She had one job to prove herself, and that was to fire Priti Patel
0:08:18 > 0:08:22and then Priti Patel had to resign.
0:08:22 > 0:08:26Now we have a government where it's led by a person who cannot even fire
0:08:26 > 0:08:29someone who has broken the Ministerial Code,
0:08:29 > 0:08:33but at least there's still a chance for her to redeem herself by firing
0:08:33 > 0:08:36Boris...
0:08:36 > 0:08:46APPLAUSE
0:08:46 > 0:08:49But if that doesn't happen, trust me, she has until Christmas
0:08:49 > 0:08:50and the Government will fall.
0:08:50 > 0:08:51She has to redeem herself.
0:08:51 > 0:08:52All right.
0:08:52 > 0:08:54We'll maybe come to that in more detail.
0:08:54 > 0:08:57Aditya though, on the main first point about whether the Government
0:08:57 > 0:08:58is strong and stable?
0:08:58 > 0:09:00Well, the straight answer to that is, obviously,
0:09:00 > 0:09:02it's not strong and stable, it's weak and increasingly wobbly.
0:09:02 > 0:09:04To lose two Cabinet ministers in a week, goodness me,
0:09:04 > 0:09:07I wonder what the next couple of weeks will bring!
0:09:07 > 0:09:10But the one bit of your question that I would take issue with, Gemma,
0:09:10 > 0:09:12is when you say "in light of recent events."
0:09:12 > 0:09:14Because what I see going on with this government
0:09:14 > 0:09:17is a culmination of seven years of doing the wrong thing
0:09:17 > 0:09:18over and over again.
0:09:18 > 0:09:20So they've said that they will fix the economy.
0:09:20 > 0:09:24Actually, they've tanked it so badly that we're going for the biggest
0:09:24 > 0:09:28squeeze on our living standards since the Napoleonic Wars.
0:09:28 > 0:09:30Theresa May says she's there for the just about managing
0:09:30 > 0:09:33and she takes money off the poor and she sends disabled
0:09:33 > 0:09:34people to their deaths.
0:09:34 > 0:09:36They say that they're about business -That's rubbish.
0:09:36 > 0:09:37They say...
0:09:37 > 0:09:39Rubbish.
0:09:39 > 0:09:41People go to fitness for work assessments,
0:09:41 > 0:09:44they're told they're fit for work, they lose their money and then
0:09:44 > 0:09:45they end up seriously ill.
0:09:45 > 0:09:47That happens over and over again.
0:09:47 > 0:09:56If I can finish...
0:09:56 > 0:09:59The other thing that they've said is that they're pro-business,
0:09:59 > 0:10:01they're pro-competition and then they take us into a referendum,
0:10:01 > 0:10:04which they bungle, they don't get the result they want and so we end
0:10:04 > 0:10:07up heading towards Brexit, and they can't even manage Brexit.
0:10:07 > 0:10:10Hold on.
0:10:10 > 0:10:13Don't shout out, wait, stick your hand up and make your
0:10:13 > 0:10:14point, if you want to.
0:10:14 > 0:10:17Yes, you sir, go on.
0:10:17 > 0:10:20We voted for Brexit and Theresa May is fulfilling that pledge.
0:10:20 > 0:10:22Now you use inflammatory language, you're like the Donald
0:10:22 > 0:10:23Trump of the Guardian.
0:10:23 > 0:10:25You use inflammatory language saying that people, disabled people...
0:10:25 > 0:10:26APPLAUSE
0:10:26 > 0:10:28You basically accuse the people that vote Conservative
0:10:28 > 0:10:30and Conservative representatives, such as myself, as sending
0:10:30 > 0:10:32people to their deaths because they're disabled.
0:10:32 > 0:10:33That's disgusting.
0:10:33 > 0:10:35Sir, I can actually introduce you to some of the people
0:10:35 > 0:10:38who are disabled activists - We can all introduce
0:10:38 > 0:10:39people to each other.
0:10:39 > 0:10:41Who can tell you about their friends -But you use language
0:10:41 > 0:10:43like Donald Trump.
0:10:43 > 0:10:44It's inflammatory rubbish.
0:10:44 > 0:10:46I don't bear very little resemblance to Donald Trump.
0:10:46 > 0:10:47OK, Stella Creasy.
0:10:47 > 0:10:49This is the problem though, isn't it?
0:10:49 > 0:10:59People are now very angry, they're very scared because I'm
0:10:59 > 0:11:01in an unusual position to agree with Charles Moore.
0:11:01 > 0:11:03Nobody knows the future direction of this country
0:11:03 > 0:11:06and whether it is to do with Brexit and 18-months on literally
0:11:06 > 0:11:07having no idea.
0:11:07 > 0:11:09The Prime Minister promised us certainty, we don't have that.
0:11:09 > 0:11:10Or it's the simple...
0:11:10 > 0:11:13You talk about facts, Justine, most people here will recognise
0:11:13 > 0:11:15there is too much month at the end of their money.
0:11:15 > 0:11:18That actually we are now a country that is more indebted than ever.
0:11:18 > 0:11:21Who here manages to pay off their credit card every month?
0:11:21 > 0:11:23Hang on, hang on, you would have us...
0:11:23 > 0:11:26Who here actually recognises the cost of living is going up
0:11:26 > 0:11:29and up and up and is worried about what is going to happen
0:11:29 > 0:11:31next and you're looking at a government saying, lead us.
0:11:31 > 0:11:33Instead, you're seeing rogue minister after minister,
0:11:33 > 0:11:35story after story.
0:11:35 > 0:11:36I understand where you're coming from, Gemma.
0:11:36 > 0:11:39I think what we have to do though is ask for action
0:11:39 > 0:11:42because it cannot continue like this, it's just too dangerous.
0:11:42 > 0:11:44Hang on a second, let's hear from more members of the audience
0:11:44 > 0:11:46and then I'll come to Justine.
0:11:46 > 0:11:47Yes.
0:11:47 > 0:11:49The person in the third row there, you.
0:11:49 > 0:11:52I just wanted to pick up on Charles' point about arithmetic
0:11:52 > 0:11:53in the last election.
0:11:53 > 0:11:56The Conservatives didn't win as many seats as they would have liked to,
0:11:56 > 0:11:59but Labour also didn't win the last election, so I think hasn't the time
0:11:59 > 0:12:01come for some proper cross-party coalition support because we're
0:12:01 > 0:12:03headed towards a national disaster?
0:12:03 > 0:12:07OK, the man over here.
0:12:07 > 0:12:09APPLAUSE
0:12:09 > 0:12:10You, sir, with the glasses, yes.
0:12:10 > 0:12:13Stella, I must take issue with you about your comment
0:12:13 > 0:12:15about you can't wait to get into power.
0:12:15 > 0:12:17The Labour Party are not in power.
0:12:17 > 0:12:19They can say anything, promise anything, spend billions
0:12:19 > 0:12:24and they're not accountable.
0:12:24 > 0:12:32But fortunately in Croydon Labour are in power and the Labour Council
0:12:32 > 0:12:34run the Children Services department, which has just received
0:12:34 > 0:12:37the most damning Ofsted report ever where it has failed on virtually
0:12:37 > 0:12:39every single measurement and count.
0:12:39 > 0:12:40All right.
0:12:40 > 0:12:44It is now in special measures and is being overseen
0:12:44 > 0:12:46by a Government-appointed inspector because you can't be trusted
0:12:46 > 0:12:49in power to actually do the job.
0:12:49 > 0:12:53All right, let Stella answer that and then I'll go to somebody else.
0:12:53 > 0:12:56APPLAUSE
0:12:56 > 0:12:58I understand your concern, sir.
0:12:58 > 0:13:01I think it's a slightly different picture on the ground,
0:13:01 > 0:13:04but what I would say is that investment in local government has
0:13:04 > 0:13:07been stripped to the bone, as has everything else.
0:13:07 > 0:13:09None of that precludes the importance of running services.
0:13:09 > 0:13:11You asked for accountability, you asked for ideas,
0:13:11 > 0:13:13I want to take up your challenge.
0:13:13 > 0:13:19I know Jeremy Corbyn wants to take up your challenge.
0:13:19 > 0:13:22When we see this country heading in such a wrong direction,
0:13:22 > 0:13:24what we ask is the opportunity to serve because what's very clear,
0:13:24 > 0:13:28over the last couple of weeks, is that Theresa May just isn't up
0:13:28 > 0:13:29to the job and it's horrible to watch.
0:13:29 > 0:13:32It doesn't give any of us any pleasure because we see some
0:13:32 > 0:13:33of the biggest choices...
0:13:33 > 0:13:35The lady over there wants cross-party work.
0:13:35 > 0:13:38Actually, I happen to think that Brexit is bigger than any
0:13:38 > 0:13:39one political party, so you're right.
0:13:39 > 0:13:42It's very noticeable there are 13 amendments next week that have
0:13:42 > 0:13:44cross-party support that are bigger than the Government's majority.
0:13:44 > 0:13:47That tells you something about that big choice,
0:13:47 > 0:13:50but what we want is the opportunity to prove that we have ideas
0:13:50 > 0:13:51we can put into action.
0:13:51 > 0:13:55What I'm telling you is that we're ready to take up that challenge and,
0:13:55 > 0:13:56God knows, I think this country needs it.
0:13:56 > 0:14:00All right, thank you.
0:14:00 > 0:14:03No, hold on.
0:14:03 > 0:14:06You in the front raised a point which I'd like,
0:14:06 > 0:14:08we've got a question on it, I'll just take that.
0:14:08 > 0:14:09Neil Woodley, your question, please.
0:14:09 > 0:14:10Neil Woodley.
0:14:10 > 0:14:12Why hasn't Theresa May sacked Boris Johnson?
0:14:12 > 0:14:14All right, it was the question he put.
0:14:14 > 0:14:16Why hasn't Theresa May sacked Boris Johnson?
0:14:16 > 0:14:17APPLAUSE
0:14:17 > 0:14:22Kirstie Allsopp.
0:14:22 > 0:14:26I don't know whether the Iranian Ambassador watches Question Time,
0:14:26 > 0:14:30I wouldn't want to take any risks, and I mean that very seriously.
0:14:30 > 0:14:35I have followed this case since the very beginning.
0:14:35 > 0:14:37The plight of Richard, Nazanin and their little girl
0:14:37 > 0:14:38Gabriella haunts me.
0:14:38 > 0:14:42That little girl, who can't come home to the UK because all that
0:14:42 > 0:14:46keeps her mother sane is her visits, and a father who hasn't
0:14:46 > 0:14:51hugged his own daughter in 18-months because he can't go to Iran.
0:14:51 > 0:14:55The fact that Boris Johnson has not seen him, given him 10 minutes
0:14:55 > 0:14:58of his time in the last 18-months is, frankly, disgraceful
0:14:58 > 0:15:01and I'm really sorry...
0:15:01 > 0:15:02APPLAUSE
0:15:02 > 0:15:03OK.
0:15:03 > 0:15:11All right, maybe Charles Moore.
0:15:11 > 0:15:13In the last answer to the previous question which I think
0:15:13 > 0:15:17is important in all of this, about the rush that happens
0:15:17 > 0:15:19in things in the age of Twitter.
0:15:19 > 0:15:21Clearly Boris Johnson made a mistake.
0:15:21 > 0:15:24But I would ask people to think about who is really
0:15:24 > 0:15:27at the bottom of all of this, who is really to blame in this.
0:15:27 > 0:15:29The answer is the Iranian government.
0:15:29 > 0:15:32It's Iran that is behaving absolutely intolerably
0:15:32 > 0:15:35to Mrs Radcliffe, it's Iran that's locking her up for no good reason.
0:15:35 > 0:15:38I think Boris Johnson was very remiss not to get his
0:15:38 > 0:15:41facts right in this.
0:15:41 > 0:15:45But somehow this is all the fault of Boris seems to be a classic
0:15:45 > 0:15:48example of how we in this country are very parochial and sort
0:15:48 > 0:15:50of focus in on the latest piece of Twitter storm.
0:15:50 > 0:15:52What is the real picture here?
0:15:52 > 0:15:55Sorry, Charles, sorry to interrupt you but it's not a Twitter storm
0:15:55 > 0:15:58when the Foreign Secretary goes before a House of Commons committee
0:15:58 > 0:16:01and says, when I look at this case and what she was doing,
0:16:01 > 0:16:05she was simply teaching people journalism as I understand it,
0:16:05 > 0:16:07which is the exact issue that she's in prison for.
0:16:07 > 0:16:10Sorry, Boris was wrong.
0:16:10 > 0:16:11I'm not defending him.
0:16:11 > 0:16:13You said it's a Twitter storm.
0:16:13 > 0:16:16The Twitter storm is about trying to get him out, of course he's wrong
0:16:16 > 0:16:19and should be criticised but we don't want the British
0:16:19 > 0:16:23Foreign Secretary falling for what is basically fundamentally
0:16:23 > 0:16:29the fault of Iran of extremely evil power who is oppressing
0:16:29 > 0:16:31all of its people and imprisoning a British citizen
0:16:31 > 0:16:32for no good reason.
0:16:32 > 0:16:37Stella Creasy, is that why he's not been sacked?
0:16:37 > 0:16:41I'll tell you what worries me about it, Charles,
0:16:41 > 0:16:45because most of us never deal with the Foreign Office,
0:16:45 > 0:16:49but if you got into trouble overseas, if there was something
0:16:49 > 0:16:56that you, as a British citizen needed our help with,
0:16:56 > 0:16:59it's the Foreign Office, it's the consulate that
0:16:59 > 0:17:01you would go to for help.
0:17:01 > 0:17:03So the person responsible for the very assistance supposed
0:17:03 > 0:17:06to be given to British citizens abroad is the one whose
0:17:06 > 0:17:08actions have essentially condemned her to another five
0:17:08 > 0:17:09years in jail.
0:17:09 > 0:17:10APPLAUSE.
0:17:10 > 0:17:11The woman there?
0:17:11 > 0:17:12It's unforgiveable, utterly unforgiveable.
0:17:12 > 0:17:13We don't know that that's happened.
0:17:13 > 0:17:14We absolutely do.
0:17:14 > 0:17:16All we know is they've used propaganda against Britain
0:17:16 > 0:17:18which they call the little satan.
0:17:18 > 0:17:21There are videos of Boris Johnson's words, they are saying he speaks
0:17:21 > 0:17:23the truth about Nazanin.
0:17:23 > 0:17:26He has to take responsibility for that because how can British
0:17:26 > 0:17:29citizens abroad be confident in a Foreign Office
0:17:29 > 0:17:30run by Boris Johnson?
0:17:30 > 0:17:32APPLAUSE.
0:17:32 > 0:17:34OK.
0:17:34 > 0:17:36The woman there?
0:17:36 > 0:17:37Yes?
0:17:37 > 0:17:39He's not doing his job properly.
0:17:39 > 0:17:40He's given them ammunition to increase her sentence.
0:17:40 > 0:17:44He's made it worse.
0:17:44 > 0:17:47He's not doing his job, he's not doing briefings and it's
0:17:47 > 0:17:50looking at us if we go overseas and get stuck.
0:17:50 > 0:17:53We are going to question whether the Foreign Office can
0:17:53 > 0:17:56actually support and help us in this regard.
0:17:56 > 0:17:57Justine Greening?
0:17:57 > 0:17:59I think Boris clearly said something that simply wasn't correct.
0:17:59 > 0:18:02He went to Parliament the next day to make sure he set
0:18:02 > 0:18:03the record straight.
0:18:03 > 0:18:06He's spoken to the Iranian Foreign Minister who's confirmed it had
0:18:06 > 0:18:12nothing to do with the subsequent steps the Iranian government took
0:18:12 > 0:18:14and of course, as Charles says, of course the Iranian press
0:18:14 > 0:18:18is going to make hey on this in the same way that,
0:18:18 > 0:18:21had it been a different country, our press probably would have
0:18:21 > 0:18:24made the most of it.
0:18:24 > 0:18:28The bottom line is, we now need to, as Kirstie says, need to focus
0:18:28 > 0:18:32on making sure we get Mrs Haghari-Radcliffe out of that
0:18:32 > 0:18:34Iranian jail and back home as a matter of urgency and that's
0:18:34 > 0:18:37what the focus of the Foreign Office should be.
0:18:37 > 0:18:38Man up there on the right?
0:18:38 > 0:18:42I think Boris Johnson had a chance to correct his statement.
0:18:42 > 0:18:45He actually said it was actually taken out of context
0:18:45 > 0:18:48and misrepresented so it's not actually the initial crime.
0:18:48 > 0:18:49Nobody's infallible.
0:18:49 > 0:18:51It's actually the cover-up.
0:18:51 > 0:18:53The problem is, you are actually looking at somebody's
0:18:53 > 0:18:55life at stake here.
0:18:55 > 0:18:59You cannot have that kind of hubris.
0:18:59 > 0:19:02You have to say, I messed up, I probably got my facts wrong,
0:19:02 > 0:19:04she was not there for that reason.
0:19:04 > 0:19:05Just come out and say that.
0:19:05 > 0:19:06Which he didn't.
0:19:06 > 0:19:08All right.
0:19:08 > 0:19:14Aditya?
0:19:14 > 0:19:16I mean, the simple answer to your question is,
0:19:16 > 0:19:19he hasn't got the shame to resign and she's not strong
0:19:19 > 0:19:21enough to sack him.
0:19:21 > 0:19:23APPLAUSE.
0:19:25 > 0:19:29He couldn't bothered to meet the family beforehand,
0:19:29 > 0:19:31he couldn't be bothered to meet the family and their MP,
0:19:31 > 0:19:35he couldn't be bothered to get the facts right and he couldn't be
0:19:35 > 0:19:37bothered to give a proper apology.
0:19:37 > 0:19:40He gave a faux apology and said "if I've offended..."
0:19:40 > 0:19:41blah blah blah.
0:19:41 > 0:19:43I mean, the man is an utter joke.
0:19:43 > 0:19:46This is meant to be our diplomat in chief and this
0:19:46 > 0:19:47is how he's behaving.
0:19:47 > 0:19:48APPLAUSE.
0:19:48 > 0:19:49Very brief, Charles?
0:19:49 > 0:19:52These things that are being said are not being said
0:19:52 > 0:19:53by Mr Radcliffe himself.
0:19:53 > 0:20:00He's saying Boris Johnson's been misrepresented by the regime
0:20:00 > 0:20:03and he said in interview this morning he thought it was a good
0:20:03 > 0:20:05thing that this had at least...
0:20:05 > 0:20:06No, no, no.
0:20:06 > 0:20:09He's not happy about the situation but he said it's a good thing it's
0:20:09 > 0:20:10raised the saliants of the question.
0:20:10 > 0:20:13One of the things the Foreign Office is always trying to do,
0:20:13 > 0:20:16and Boris Johnson shouldn't have given into his own office like this,
0:20:16 > 0:20:17is avoid questions like this.
0:20:17 > 0:20:19They hate questions about protecting British individual citizens
0:20:19 > 0:20:21because they always say it interferes with wider policy
0:20:21 > 0:20:25and actually in a funny way, this has turned out to bring more
0:20:25 > 0:20:26attention, thank goodness, on her case.
0:20:26 > 0:20:31It's true that Richard Radcliffe has said that it will bring it
0:20:31 > 0:20:33further up Boris's inbox, that's what he said.
0:20:33 > 0:20:36He also said there is a direct link between Johnson's comments
0:20:36 > 0:20:39and what's happened, according to today's Times.
0:20:39 > 0:20:42Yes, all right, we'll go on.
0:20:42 > 0:20:46Before we go on to another topic though, let me say
0:20:46 > 0:20:48where we are going to be next week.
0:20:53 > 0:20:55Newcastle next Thursday, Colchester the Thursday after that.
0:20:55 > 0:20:58On the screen there are the details of how to apply to come to take
0:20:58 > 0:20:59part in these debates.
0:20:59 > 0:21:02And now I want to take this question from Tewar Aguiri, please?
0:21:02 > 0:21:04Should wealthy individuals be villainised for legally
0:21:04 > 0:21:05making tax savings?
0:21:05 > 0:21:09Well we know this is all about tax havens abroad.
0:21:09 > 0:21:17Should wealthy individuals be villainised for illegally
0:21:17 > 0:21:19Should wealthy individuals be villainised for legally
0:21:19 > 0:21:20making tax savings.
0:21:20 > 0:21:22Aditya, you've been in the van of this, what's the answer?
0:21:22 > 0:21:25Just to make it clear, I'm not one of the reporters,
0:21:25 > 0:21:28I'm just a columnist as we say, ten a penny, nowadays.
0:21:28 > 0:21:33Two a penny on this programme.
0:21:33 > 0:21:34LAUGHTER.
0:21:34 > 0:21:36The thing I find shocking about this set of tax leaks,
0:21:36 > 0:21:40which is a the latest in a series of tax leaks, is how
0:21:40 > 0:21:43normalised tax avoidance is if you are in the super rich.
0:21:43 > 0:21:46So nowadays it could be the Queen's wealth adviser,
0:21:46 > 0:21:49you would think nothing of shunting her cash off
0:21:49 > 0:21:51to the Cayman Islands.
0:21:51 > 0:21:59I don't think it's about villainising the particular people.
0:21:59 > 0:22:02I don't think you even need to say the tax avoidance is illegal,
0:22:02 > 0:22:05it's not, tax avoidance is perfectly legal, it's just not legit.
0:22:05 > 0:22:07It's breaking the spirit of the law, it's not necessarily breaking
0:22:07 > 0:22:10the letter of the law and what we have to ask ourselves
0:22:10 > 0:22:14is, how've we got to a situation where the super rich in this country
0:22:14 > 0:22:21send 30-40% of their wealth into tax havens while the rest of us are pay
0:22:21 > 0:22:24as you earn and have to pay our taxes.
0:22:24 > 0:22:27So we pay for the roads, we pay for the food regulation,
0:22:27 > 0:22:30we pay for the law and order and the armies and the rest
0:22:30 > 0:22:32of it and the super rich don't pay their way.
0:22:32 > 0:22:35How've we got to that situation and how do we put that right?
0:22:35 > 0:22:38I think that's what the Paradise Papers that were issued this week,
0:22:38 > 0:22:41that's the question it gives us, it forces.
0:22:41 > 0:22:45We are at a point where we have to make a choice.
0:22:45 > 0:22:47Do we want money to go to our schools, hospitals
0:22:47 > 0:22:51and all the rest of it, or do we want to shovel money
0:22:51 > 0:22:53into the pockets of people who already have plenty?
0:22:53 > 0:22:55APPLAUSE.
0:22:55 > 0:23:01As the questioner said, if these were legally made tax savings,
0:23:01 > 0:23:04how do you change the practice?
0:23:04 > 0:23:10I think the really big problem is that politics in this country's
0:23:10 > 0:23:14often shaped and influenced by people who don't have the same
0:23:14 > 0:23:17stake in the country as the rest of us do.
0:23:17 > 0:23:20So if you look at our newspapers, the biggest newspapers are owned
0:23:20 > 0:23:23by billionaire tax avoiders.
0:23:23 > 0:23:27I can mention a particular newspaper that Charles Moore
0:23:27 > 0:23:31writes for whose owners have their own 80-acre
0:23:31 > 0:23:34fortress island.
0:23:34 > 0:23:37We also have a Conservative Party that scraped into Government in 2010
0:23:37 > 0:23:41and half the money for its election campaign was given to it
0:23:41 > 0:23:44by financial services which is right at the centre of this
0:23:44 > 0:23:45tax avoidance industry.
0:23:45 > 0:23:47All right.
0:23:47 > 0:23:49APPLAUSE.
0:23:49 > 0:23:52Let me go back to Tewar who asked the question.
0:23:52 > 0:23:55What do you make of that answer?
0:23:55 > 0:23:58A very fair answer, a good analysis of it.
0:23:58 > 0:24:02But I feel that this villainisation of the wealthy
0:24:02 > 0:24:06individuals and companies, it's actually the most effective way
0:24:06 > 0:24:09so far to get wealthy individuals to change their habits in some way
0:24:09 > 0:24:13because I feel that parties on both sides are kind of a mixture
0:24:13 > 0:24:16of clueless and incompetent when it comes to tax avoidance issues,
0:24:16 > 0:24:21especially aggressive tax avoidance that we have seen in the recent
0:24:21 > 0:24:25issue and recent leaks.
0:24:25 > 0:24:29So I think these leaks kind of spur on the party's interaction
0:24:29 > 0:24:32but I don't think they actually have their heads around how
0:24:32 > 0:24:33to tackle it really.
0:24:33 > 0:24:37But do you want to see people villainised?
0:24:37 > 0:24:39I'm not sure from your question, or whether you think
0:24:39 > 0:24:40they are wrongly villainised?
0:24:40 > 0:24:42To an extent.
0:24:42 > 0:24:45Which way?
0:24:45 > 0:24:48I think to the extent that it forces them to look inwards and look
0:24:48 > 0:24:51at their actual habits and how they are purchasing.
0:24:51 > 0:24:54For example, if you look at Lewis Hamilton where he bought
0:24:54 > 0:24:57his jet with an off shore company, leased it to another company,
0:24:57 > 0:25:01who leased it to a leasing company who then leased it back to himself,
0:25:01 > 0:25:04I mean by the time you're triple leasing a product to yourself,
0:25:04 > 0:25:06surely that's morally repugnant and you should kind
0:25:06 > 0:25:08of have a think about it.
0:25:08 > 0:25:10All right.
0:25:10 > 0:25:12Charles Moore.
0:25:12 > 0:25:14APPLAUSE.
0:25:15 > 0:25:18The trouble with this story, it's a huge bundle of all different
0:25:18 > 0:25:21things, some of which are acceptable and some of which are not.
0:25:21 > 0:25:25One thing that's often said and has been said here tonight is that it's
0:25:25 > 0:25:28all about tax avoidance.
0:25:28 > 0:25:30The matter of the Queen was raised.
0:25:30 > 0:25:33She avoided no tax by this, none whatever.
0:25:33 > 0:25:35It was not a tax avoidance scheme.
0:25:35 > 0:25:40What happened was that the Duchy of Lancaster invests her money
0:25:40 > 0:25:44here and there and he decided to put money into the Cayman Islands
0:25:44 > 0:25:51and later into Guernsey and into Bermuda I think.
0:25:51 > 0:25:58A very small amount of money it has to be said.
0:25:58 > 0:26:02Her ownership of the particular company was worth £3,000,
0:26:02 > 0:26:06but anyway, it was put in there and it was advised
0:26:06 > 0:26:11by the Duchy of Lancaster and the Duchy of Lancaster
0:26:11 > 0:26:13is controlled by the Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster
0:26:13 > 0:26:15who is always in the Cabinet.
0:26:15 > 0:26:18At that time when it was advised, it was a Labour Government
0:26:18 > 0:26:21and a Labour Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster raised no
0:26:21 > 0:26:24objection to any of this.
0:26:24 > 0:26:27Probably rightly so, in the sense that there was no
0:26:27 > 0:26:32criminal or evil behaviour here and the Queen pays tax
0:26:32 > 0:26:35on all the income that comes to her from it.
0:26:35 > 0:26:37So what exactly is it that people are talking
0:26:37 > 0:26:40about and are they saying...
0:26:40 > 0:26:43The Queen, if you go to the Cayman Islands
0:26:43 > 0:26:46or Bermuda or Guernsey, the Queen's head is on the currency,
0:26:46 > 0:26:48the Queen's head is on the stamp.
0:26:48 > 0:26:49Is she not allowed to...
0:26:49 > 0:26:53You are just trying to justify what is morally wrong at the end
0:26:53 > 0:26:57of the day and she's the head of the state and I would actually
0:26:57 > 0:27:00blame the politicians not closing the loopholes,
0:27:00 > 0:27:03so we should ask the question to the politicians,
0:27:03 > 0:27:07what are you going to do about it?
0:27:08 > 0:27:11You can discuss it until the cows come home but please tell us,
0:27:11 > 0:27:14what are you going to do about the loopholes,
0:27:14 > 0:27:18that's what we want to know.
0:27:18 > 0:27:20I just think it's important to get a particular example.
0:27:20 > 0:27:22What is wrong with what the Queen did?
0:27:22 > 0:27:26She didn't avoid tax.
0:27:26 > 0:27:29It's in the Cayman Islands.
0:27:29 > 0:27:34Stella Creasy?
0:27:34 > 0:27:36Let me answer Charles's question and your question.
0:27:36 > 0:27:41If you can to each's satisfaction.
0:27:41 > 0:27:44The concern I have is that she's got money in a company called
0:27:44 > 0:27:46Brighthouse and you might know know who they are...
0:27:46 > 0:27:47Yes, I do...
0:27:47 > 0:27:48Charles, let her speak.
0:27:48 > 0:27:51They charge an incredibly high rate of interest and as somebody who's
0:27:51 > 0:27:53spent years fighting what I call these legal loan sharks,
0:27:53 > 0:27:56it's deeply worrying to me that people are profiting from them
0:27:56 > 0:27:58because there is an ethical question about investing in them.
0:27:58 > 0:28:00So that's what I have to deal with.
0:28:00 > 0:28:01APPLAUSE.
0:28:01 > 0:28:05And madam, let me take your question head on because I agree with you.
0:28:05 > 0:28:07Stella, maybe they should...
0:28:07 > 0:28:10She's agreeing with you, keep quiet.
0:28:10 > 0:28:13Let her agree with you if you want to hear.
0:28:13 > 0:28:15Maybe they should use the money from the Cayman Islands
0:28:15 > 0:28:18to repair Buckingham Palace, for their repairs.
0:28:18 > 0:28:21Can you move the microphone away now, thank you very much.
0:28:21 > 0:28:26Let me answer your question head on because you are right.
0:28:26 > 0:28:29Actually, there are things we can do about this and a week ago,
0:28:29 > 0:28:32so before the Paradise Papers came out, I tabled an amendment
0:28:32 > 0:28:35to the Finance Bill to close the loophole where British
0:28:35 > 0:28:39businesses have to pay tax on commercial property sales in
0:28:39 > 0:28:41the UK but foreign businesses don't.
0:28:41 > 0:28:45It's worth £6 billion, it's these offshore trusts
0:28:45 > 0:28:48were people are salting away commercial properties.
0:28:48 > 0:28:50It would have been that magic money tree to urgently invest
0:28:50 > 0:28:52in our public services.
0:28:52 > 0:28:54The Government voted it down.
0:28:54 > 0:28:57Please help me get it in the budget this time around because I don't
0:28:57 > 0:29:00think we can afford to leave that afford to leave that
0:29:00 > 0:29:01tax loophole looming.
0:29:01 > 0:29:02You, Sir?
0:29:02 > 0:29:06I am 60 years of age.
0:29:06 > 0:29:09I'm on the way out.
0:29:09 > 0:29:14But three of my children aren't.
0:29:14 > 0:29:15A 22-year-old, a 20-year-old and an 11-year-old who're
0:29:15 > 0:29:20living in austerity, who're forced to get into debts.
0:29:20 > 0:29:26With an NHS that needs £24 billion to exist and we allow foreign
0:29:26 > 0:29:33companies and people in this country to evade, not avoid, evade tax
0:29:33 > 0:29:39when the population of this country is going through austerity.
0:29:39 > 0:29:42Ok, Justine Greening?
0:29:42 > 0:29:47APPLAUSE.
0:29:47 > 0:29:52People should absolutely pay their fair share of tax.
0:29:52 > 0:29:58But these Paradise Papers are largely from years and years ago.
0:29:58 > 0:30:02Some of the situations we have just been talking
0:30:02 > 0:30:06about were literally from 2004, 2005.
0:30:06 > 0:30:10I agree that all of those tax loopholes needed to be closed
0:30:10 > 0:30:14and that's precisely what we have been doing since 2010.
0:30:14 > 0:30:18We have closed so many of them that we've actually raised £160 billion
0:30:18 > 0:30:22of extra tax from those measures.
0:30:22 > 0:30:25I have to say, Stella, I heard you talking about your tax
0:30:25 > 0:30:28measure that you want to do, but before the last election,
0:30:28 > 0:30:31the Labour Party failed to support three key tax measures that
0:30:31 > 0:30:35were in the Finance Bill that we were trying
0:30:35 > 0:30:38to get through Parliament and nobody can understand...
0:30:38 > 0:30:40Why did you vote down...
0:30:40 > 0:30:43Hang on, Stella, you haven't answered my question which was,
0:30:43 > 0:30:47why did the Labour Party fail to support three key measures,
0:30:47 > 0:30:50one of them was actually about stopping companies shifting
0:30:50 > 0:31:03profits overseas so that we could actually tax them.
0:31:03 > 0:31:05I've just given you a clear example of us trying
0:31:05 > 0:31:06to close a tax loophole.
0:31:06 > 0:31:08You voted it down last week, Justine, I checked.
0:31:08 > 0:31:11You haven't answered my question.
0:31:11 > 0:31:15We had a general election called and the Finance Bill went through it -
0:31:15 > 0:31:16You haven't answered my question.
0:31:16 > 0:31:18Because a general election was called and so it
0:31:18 > 0:31:19went through the washer.
0:31:19 > 0:31:20No.
0:31:20 > 0:31:22This is the same piece of finance legislation, isn't it?
0:31:22 > 0:31:24The situation -Isn't it, Justine?
0:31:24 > 0:31:26This is the same piece of legislation.
0:31:26 > 0:31:28You could have closed the £6 billion loophole that most other countries
0:31:28 > 0:31:30have closed and you chose not to.
0:31:30 > 0:31:31If I could finish.
0:31:31 > 0:31:33This was about getting the Finance Bill through Parliament before
0:31:33 > 0:31:35the election was called.
0:31:35 > 0:31:37There were three major measures to reduce tax avoidance.
0:31:37 > 0:31:38Labour wouldn't let them through.
0:31:38 > 0:31:41The bottom line is that the gap between how much money this country
0:31:41 > 0:31:44is owed in tax and how much we're actually being paid and collecting
0:31:44 > 0:31:45has never been lower.
0:31:45 > 0:31:49We need to do more -So did you vote against my measure then?
0:31:49 > 0:31:50If you could let me finish.
0:31:50 > 0:31:51No, stop the tit-for-tat.
0:31:51 > 0:31:52If you let me finish.
0:31:52 > 0:32:01No, wait a minute.
0:32:01 > 0:32:04I want to come back to what was said and the key point
0:32:04 > 0:32:07which Charles Moore was talking about, the lady up there was talking
0:32:07 > 0:32:10about, which is about money moving abroad and being used abroad.
0:32:10 > 0:32:13What do you make of what your former leader David Cameron said?
0:32:13 > 0:32:15You will remember the words, no doubt, "some of these
0:32:15 > 0:32:17schemes we have seen are, frankly, morally wrong."
0:32:17 > 0:32:20Do you agree with him that moving money abroad, frankly,
0:32:20 > 0:32:23is sometimes morally wrong or are you in favour, as Charles is,
0:32:23 > 0:32:25of the Queen investing there and anybody investing
0:32:25 > 0:32:27there who wants to?
0:32:27 > 0:32:29I think there are two aspects of this.
0:32:29 > 0:32:31First of all, when there is aggressive tax avoidance,
0:32:31 > 0:32:33that should be shut down.
0:32:33 > 0:32:35One of the things - What is aggressive tax avoidance?
0:32:35 > 0:32:38When people are deliberately moving profits away from the UK for no
0:32:38 > 0:32:42other reason than they're trying to avoid tax.
0:32:42 > 0:32:44That's why we brought in the diverted profits tax
0:32:44 > 0:32:46to precisely do that.
0:32:46 > 0:32:51But the second point, this is why I wanted to pick up Stella.
0:32:51 > 0:32:59Is if, as a country, we're not happy how the rules work,
0:32:59 > 0:33:01then it's Parliament that should change them, but it's pretty
0:33:01 > 0:33:06galling to have a Labour MP telling us that we can't change the rules
0:33:06 > 0:33:08when they stood in the face of changing them
0:33:08 > 0:33:09before the election.
0:33:09 > 0:33:11You have been in power for almost seven years?
0:33:11 > 0:33:13Indeed and we've passed 75 separate tax avoidance measures.
0:33:13 > 0:33:14You've failed.
0:33:14 > 0:33:17You've been in power for over seven years and you keep blaming
0:33:17 > 0:33:18this Labour government.
0:33:18 > 0:33:19We are in 2017.
0:33:19 > 0:33:22Can you please list us what you are going to do
0:33:22 > 0:33:24as a Government so this can be avoided?
0:33:24 > 0:33:26We need to deal with the lawyers who are involved and at
0:33:26 > 0:33:27the centre of these?
0:33:27 > 0:33:29Indeed.
0:33:29 > 0:33:31They take part in this and nothing happens to them.
0:33:31 > 0:33:38How about you penalise these lawyers?
0:33:38 > 0:33:40OK, allow her to answer, thank you.
0:33:40 > 0:33:42Sir, you're right.
0:33:42 > 0:33:44First of all, we need to continue closing this
0:33:44 > 0:33:46gap that is smaller, but still there, between what we're
0:33:46 > 0:33:48owed and what we actually collect.
0:33:48 > 0:33:51Secondly, we need to make sure that on transparency and the new rules
0:33:51 > 0:33:55that all these overseas territories have to follow about being
0:33:55 > 0:33:57clear-cut, who owns these companies that are based there?
0:33:57 > 0:34:03Whos owns and runs the Trusts.
0:34:03 > 0:34:07We need to make sure that information is being shared
0:34:07 > 0:34:17with HMRC, which now it has to be automatically and then
0:34:18 > 0:34:22thing is we need to make sure that HMRC is staffed up and
0:34:22 > 0:34:24resourced up properly to be able to go after that.
0:34:24 > 0:34:27That's precisely what we're now doing because we changed the rules
0:34:27 > 0:34:30and we can now make sure we continue to close the tax gap.
0:34:30 > 0:34:32But part of this is continuing to stay up-to-date.
0:34:32 > 0:34:34Because as we close down these schemes, accountants and lawyers
0:34:34 > 0:34:36will try and find out new ones.
0:34:36 > 0:34:38That is why this business is never really complete.
0:34:38 > 0:34:39Hang on a second.
0:34:39 > 0:34:40The woman there, yes.
0:34:40 > 0:34:42This is a question of morality not legality.
0:34:42 > 0:34:45Someone asked me the other day - what would I do if I had
0:34:45 > 0:34:48all these millions of pounds, wouldn't I move it offshore as well?
0:34:48 > 0:34:57Well, I can certainly say I would not do that
0:34:57 > 0:34:59a lot of people in this room would be able
0:34:59 > 0:35:09to say exactly
0:35:15 > 0:35:16The same.
0:35:16 > 0:35:18You wouldn't?
0:35:18 > 0:35:19Wouldn't.
0:35:19 > 0:35:20You wouldn't.
0:35:20 > 0:35:21Kirstie Allsopp.
0:35:21 > 0:35:23The financial adviser, Martin Lewis, did a Twitter poll
0:35:23 > 0:35:25today and he asked people whether they would give cash
0:35:25 > 0:35:28to a builder in the knowledge that this was breaking tax rules,
0:35:28 > 0:35:29but giving them a discount.
0:35:29 > 0:35:3153% of his respondents said they would.
0:35:31 > 0:35:35The one thing about this I object to is that the belief that it's just
0:35:35 > 0:35:36the rich that avoid tax.
0:35:36 > 0:35:39No-one has ever come toll me and said, "I want to pay
0:35:39 > 0:35:41£250,000 for a property, not £249,950 because I want to pay
0:35:41 > 0:35:42the higher stamp duty."
0:35:42 > 0:35:44We live in a culture of tax avoidance.
0:35:44 > 0:35:47Every time you go to an airport there's a sign saying
0:35:47 > 0:35:48"tax-free, tax-free."
0:35:48 > 0:35:50People are actively encouraged not to pay tax,
0:35:50 > 0:35:57to the bottom our society, people are doing.
0:35:57 > 0:35:59Let her finish, she's only just started speaking
0:35:59 > 0:36:00just started speaking.
0:36:00 > 0:36:02Aditya, I know what you're going to say...
0:36:02 > 0:36:04Now wait a moment, wait a moment everybody, just let Kirstie
0:36:04 > 0:36:06have her say and I'll bring you in.
0:36:06 > 0:36:08There's no good shouting out.
0:36:08 > 0:36:10I know what you're going to say, that if you are PAYE,
0:36:10 > 0:36:12you cannot avoid tax.
0:36:12 > 0:36:13No.
0:36:13 > 0:36:14But there is enormous...
0:36:14 > 0:36:16No, if you go to duty-free you're not actually avoiding...
0:36:16 > 0:36:18There's a difference -Yes, you are.
0:36:18 > 0:36:19There's a difference between using schemes
0:36:19 > 0:36:21which the Government wants you to use, like
0:36:21 > 0:36:22an ISA, for instance.
0:36:22 > 0:36:24And then doing this thing of leasing jets
0:36:24 > 0:36:25back-and-forth three times over.
0:36:25 > 0:36:31Obviously there's a difference, but if we all need to have a moral
0:36:31 > 0:36:33requirement to pay tax, then why, when we go
0:36:33 > 0:36:35through the airport, does it say, "duty-free" all over.
0:36:35 > 0:36:38Why are we being encouraged to spend money on alcohol and cigarettes,
0:36:38 > 0:36:40which is valuable money for the Exchequer tax-free actually?
0:36:40 > 0:36:45No, hold on.
0:36:45 > 0:36:48Don't conflate a few pounds saved on a packet of fags.
0:36:48 > 0:36:50No.
0:36:50 > 0:36:53With millions being saved - I'm not conflating it what I'm
0:36:53 > 0:36:55saying is, we have a culture of tax avoidance in this country
0:36:55 > 0:36:58and if it's morally wrong to avoid tax, it's morally wrong
0:36:58 > 0:36:59to avoid tax.
0:36:59 > 0:37:00No, hold on.
0:37:00 > 0:37:01Let's hear some more.
0:37:01 > 0:37:04The man in red there, you sir, yes.
0:37:04 > 0:37:07Kirstie Allsopp equates escaping cigarette tax as the same
0:37:07 > 0:37:08as the Duke of Westminster.
0:37:08 > 0:37:10The Duke of Westminster paid 0% inheritance tax.
0:37:10 > 0:37:17They are completely different.
0:37:17 > 0:37:20If he had paid the inheritance tax that all of us would have
0:37:20 > 0:37:22paid and have to pay, and I pay my tax, that
0:37:22 > 0:37:24could have supported one day's expenditure in the NHS.
0:37:24 > 0:37:26Hold on.
0:37:26 > 0:37:28Apple pays 5% corporation tax, how much do you pay?
0:37:28 > 0:37:30So let us be clear about this.
0:37:30 > 0:37:31Let us be clear about this.
0:37:31 > 0:37:33I think you've made the point.
0:37:33 > 0:37:37I want tax avoidance to be made illegal.
0:37:37 > 0:37:39I would like tax avoidance, which is institutionalised tax
0:37:39 > 0:37:40evasion, to be made illegal.
0:37:40 > 0:37:46Charles Moore.
0:37:46 > 0:37:50I think it's very important to understand that a lot
0:37:50 > 0:37:53of the wealth of a great many people is tied up with what people
0:37:53 > 0:37:57sometimes call tax avoidance.
0:37:57 > 0:38:00For example, if you have your house, one house, you pay no capital -
0:38:00 > 0:38:02you pay no tax on selling it.
0:38:02 > 0:38:04How many houses do you have?
0:38:04 > 0:38:07No, I'm saying...
0:38:07 > 0:38:09APPLAUSE
0:38:09 > 0:38:11That's the point I'm making.
0:38:11 > 0:38:14Most people who own a house, which is the majority
0:38:14 > 0:38:15of the population, own one house.
0:38:15 > 0:38:16No, no.
0:38:16 > 0:38:21No, no, no.
0:38:21 > 0:38:23When they sell their house, they pay no capital gains tax
0:38:23 > 0:38:26on it and the result - They pay stamp duty.
0:38:26 > 0:38:36Yes, but they don't pay capital gains tax.
0:38:41 > 0:38:44If they were to have a house of half the size and invest money
0:38:44 > 0:38:46in the stock market, they would pay tax.
0:38:46 > 0:38:47They live in the house.
0:38:47 > 0:38:48Of course.
0:38:48 > 0:38:49The point about this...
0:38:49 > 0:38:50It's a very bad...
0:38:50 > 0:38:51It's another world.
0:38:51 > 0:38:52It's another world.
0:38:52 > 0:38:54No, it's not another world.
0:38:54 > 0:38:56The point is, the wealth of most British people is distorted
0:38:56 > 0:38:59by the fact that they don't pay capital gains tax on their house
0:38:59 > 0:39:04and therefore they put all their money into their house.
0:39:04 > 0:39:06This doesn't happen - for example this doesn't -
0:39:06 > 0:39:08that is why the houses are so expensive.
0:39:08 > 0:39:10It doesn't happen like that in Germany, for example.
0:39:10 > 0:39:20Therefore, you were encouraged by the tax system to avoid
0:39:20 > 0:39:22the capital gains tax by keeping all of your
0:39:22 > 0:39:24money in your house.
0:39:24 > 0:39:26Charles, the man with spectacles there says you're conflating
0:39:26 > 0:39:29two different things.
0:39:29 > 0:39:30You're conflating two different things.
0:39:30 > 0:39:33If we just go back to the original question about Lewis Hamilton.
0:39:33 > 0:39:36On his tax form he put the business jet was for a percentage of business
0:39:36 > 0:39:37and percentage of leisure.
0:39:37 > 0:39:39Now he should have paid tax on that.
0:39:39 > 0:39:43The Isle of Man just stamped it off and off he went he flew to Hawaii.
0:39:43 > 0:39:44It's a nonsense.
0:39:44 > 0:39:46The second point, you talk about housing, another
0:39:46 > 0:39:47interesting point as well.
0:39:47 > 0:39:49Again, I think you're conflating two different things here.
0:39:49 > 0:39:51Presumably, that one that you've described,
0:39:51 > 0:39:52Lewis Hamilton and the Isle of Man.
0:39:52 > 0:39:54It's as clear as glass.
0:39:54 > 0:39:55HMRC will be after him, won't they?
0:39:55 > 0:39:57They are looking into it.
0:39:57 > 0:39:58They are looking into the...
0:39:58 > 0:39:59Sorry.
0:39:59 > 0:40:01Because -Can I make another point, is the lobbyist
0:40:01 > 0:40:04that is going on here as well and the revolving door
0:40:04 > 0:40:05between HMRC and the top four firms
0:40:05 > 0:40:07Deloitte -That is true.
0:40:07 > 0:40:09They spend huge sums of money lobbying the Government and then
0:40:09 > 0:40:12HMRC don't have the expertise so they're bringing in these private
0:40:12 > 0:40:15consultants to help draft law and they're just going back down
0:40:15 > 0:40:17going back down and going - guys, well we're know what's
0:40:17 > 0:40:18going on the back door,
0:40:18 > 0:40:21we'll just devise a plan to get round it.
0:40:21 > 0:40:22It's not being addressed.
0:40:22 > 0:40:23This gentleman is talking about what's called
0:40:23 > 0:40:24the common purse payment.
0:40:24 > 0:40:27What the Government does, which is a cosy deal with the Isle
0:40:27 > 0:40:29of Man, that allows them to do this.
0:40:29 > 0:40:30Yep.
0:40:30 > 0:40:32There are always choices, just as there's a debate
0:40:32 > 0:40:34to be had about fairness.
0:40:34 > 0:40:37I don't think it's fair that British businesses have to pay a tax that
0:40:37 > 0:40:38non-UK businesses don't pay.
0:40:38 > 0:40:39Exactly.
0:40:39 > 0:40:41I don't understand why anybody would hold UK commercial property
0:40:41 > 0:40:43overseas in an overseas trust.
0:40:43 > 0:40:44But they are.
0:40:44 > 0:40:45Yeah.
0:40:45 > 0:40:47We as taxpayers are paying for the consequence of that.
0:40:47 > 0:40:51So the question for all of us is - what are we going to do about it?
0:40:51 > 0:40:54Because our public finances and our -You are in power.
0:40:54 > 0:40:57You are in the House of Commons - She's not in power.
0:40:57 > 0:40:58I'm trying.
0:40:58 > 0:40:59I'm trying, sir.
0:40:59 > 0:41:00I promise you.
0:41:00 > 0:41:06Labour and Conservative no-one has tackled this,
0:41:06 > 0:41:08transfer pricing has been
0:41:08 > 0:41:11going on for years and both parties have had opportunities to stop that.
0:41:11 > 0:41:14It sounds as though you should be in the House of Commons.
0:41:14 > 0:41:19Justine Greening.
0:41:19 > 0:41:22We have been taking measures companies who shift their profits
0:41:22 > 0:41:26from the UK to another jurisdiction, often one of these overseas
0:41:26 > 0:41:32territories perhaps. That's what the diverted profits tax was all about
0:41:32 > 0:41:36and the amount that companies pay on that diverted profit is more than
0:41:36 > 0:41:44they would have paid if they'd had the profit here in the UK. So
0:41:44 > 0:41:46punitive level compared to corporation tax here. The point is
0:41:46 > 0:41:50to make sure we get more of profits truly generated here in the UK
0:41:50 > 0:41:55registered in the UK so that it's properly taxed but that's - those
0:41:55 > 0:41:58are the steps reare taking. We will continue to make sure we
0:41:58 > 0:42:03look at taking as many as we need to keep closing this tax gap. It's at
0:42:03 > 0:42:07the lowest level ever in the UK echl he with want it to get down to zero.
0:42:07 > 0:42:13I want to go back to Kirstie on the point he made. You commented it was
0:42:13 > 0:42:17true that the HMRC, the tax collectors, are being advised by
0:42:17 > 0:42:22people who have other interests at heart?Poacher turned gamekeeper,
0:42:22 > 0:42:26isn't it David?I don't know.That is what goes on. One point you work
0:42:26 > 0:42:30for - that is what you are talking about, poacher turned gamekeeper.
0:42:30 > 0:42:36Don't go back to him, he's spoken plenty!The problem is that if
0:42:36 > 0:42:40you're an expert in an area, you sometimes work for the Government
0:42:40 > 0:42:43and you sometimes work for private organisations and you go back and
0:42:43 > 0:42:48forward.It doesn't make it OK. Stella, when did I say it was OK? I
0:42:48 > 0:42:52never said it was OK. I agreed with the gentleman it happens. I never
0:42:52 > 0:42:56said it was OK. I don't think any of it is OK. I've never said any of
0:42:56 > 0:43:02it's OK.It's definitely not OK.I said I think we have a culture of
0:43:02 > 0:43:05tax avoidance across the whole of the country.The former Chancellor
0:43:05 > 0:43:08struck a sweetheart tax deal with Google to allow them off their tax
0:43:08 > 0:43:13bill and then said is was a good deal for Britain. You don't even
0:43:13 > 0:43:17need to look at the HMRC look at our elected politicians. Look at the guy
0:43:17 > 0:43:24who used to be senior in the Conservative Party, Ashcroft, a
0:43:24 > 0:43:30non--dom.All right, let's go on. Thank you. Let us take a question
0:43:30 > 0:43:34now from Nathan Langford.As a 17-year-old schoolboy, how is it I
0:43:34 > 0:43:38know how to respect women better than some of our Government
0:43:38 > 0:43:44ministers do? APPLAUSE.
0:43:51 > 0:43:55Justine Greening.I think it's a really good point. I think when you
0:43:55 > 0:44:02look at what's been happening in the States with the scandal around
0:44:02 > 0:44:06Harvey Weinstein and what about going on in parliament across all
0:44:06 > 0:44:11parties, frankly, there is a need for a massive culture change but
0:44:11 > 0:44:14backed up with rule changes. If you look at Westminster, the problem is
0:44:14 > 0:44:19that for too long if people have had problems, not just women, but also
0:44:19 > 0:44:23men, there hasn't really been a way for them to get them properly
0:44:23 > 0:44:26followed up. Often they have been left with talking to people within
0:44:26 > 0:44:30their party. Often the party they want to build a coo career in. They
0:44:30 > 0:44:35have not come forward. What we are seeing across the board, whether
0:44:35 > 0:44:39it's showbusiness orient tinment or politics, people who perhaps didn't
0:44:39 > 0:44:42realise other people have experienced these issues now coming
0:44:42 > 0:44:45forward. I think that's good, but I do think we need to make sure we
0:44:45 > 0:44:51have the processes in place within parliament and I think parties need
0:44:51 > 0:44:55to bring forward, we are doing it, Stella will talk about the Labour
0:44:55 > 0:45:00Party, a code of conduct so we set ourselves a high standards. Finally,
0:45:00 > 0:45:04you made the point about your understanding of respect.
0:45:04 > 0:45:08Absolutely, schools have a key role to play in all of this. One of the
0:45:08 > 0:45:12reasons we are updating relationships and sex education for
0:45:12 > 0:45:16the first time is 17 years is that it's important because that stays
0:45:16 > 0:45:19up-to-date and relevant for young people in our education system right
0:45:19 > 0:45:29now.25 years ago when I was selling classified sales a guy came up to me
0:45:29 > 0:45:35and did a pelvic thrust behind #4e me I told him to F-off at the top of
0:45:35 > 0:45:39my house. I ended up with a threat of a written warning, not him. A
0:45:39 > 0:45:43written warning?I was threatened with a written warning, not him. I
0:45:43 > 0:45:48thought it was grossly unfair. I think, 25 years later, that wouldn't
0:45:48 > 0:45:54happen. But this is about power. I rang a friend this morning, you know
0:45:54 > 0:46:01you are coming on Question Time you do a bit of chatting. She said to me
0:46:01 > 0:46:06something interesting. Said of all the incidents that happened to me it
0:46:06 > 0:46:12was never a member of staff who was June or to me. It's not about sex
0:46:12 > 0:46:18it's about power. It's about people. It's about people who are senior to
0:46:18 > 0:46:23people that are below them and exercising a degree of control over
0:46:23 > 0:46:28them. When it happens you remember it and you remember it forever. I'm
0:46:28 > 0:46:33quite a robust person, I'm quite capable of telling people to F off
0:46:33 > 0:46:38and I remember it. What I would say is, there's one other point. I would
0:46:38 > 0:46:45address it to the young man. I am Rae sorry -Nathan.Nathan. I was
0:46:45 > 0:46:48recently given a diversity document from a production company I do work
0:46:48 > 0:46:56for. It said in it, "use of affectionate terms such as "darling"
0:46:56 > 0:47:00will constitute sexual harassment." I said to HR, I think this is wrong.
0:47:00 > 0:47:04I don't think the use of the word "darling" constitutes sexual
0:47:04 > 0:47:09harassment. I'm still battling with them about it. I think it's an
0:47:09 > 0:47:14incredibly important issue, but it's about power and abuse, it's not
0:47:14 > 0:47:17about that fantastic sexual humour and banter that we all need in our
0:47:17 > 0:47:21lives and we all have. I think it's about abuse of power and it has to
0:47:21 > 0:47:24be stamped out.
0:47:29 > 0:47:33Nathan you asked the question, how is it that you know how to respect
0:47:33 > 0:47:36women better than some Government ministers do? What is your answer to
0:47:36 > 0:47:42that question?I'm completely astounded. Like we have seen with
0:47:42 > 0:47:46Michael Fallon and other Government ministers the sex toy minister, it's
0:47:46 > 0:47:52absolutely disgusting. I agree with what Kirstie said. This has to bring
0:47:52 > 0:47:57about some kind of change. If it goes too far that men and women
0:47:57 > 0:48:02can't talk to each other touch each other friendly in the workplace,
0:48:02 > 0:48:06that's how u ares are started that is how people get on.40% of people
0:48:06 > 0:48:13meet in their workplace.If men and women feel estranged from each other
0:48:13 > 0:48:20that's corrosive to society?You think this is a generational thing.
0:48:20 > 0:48:25When you say, I was a 17-year-old schoolboy you mean you are of a
0:48:25 > 0:48:28generation that respects women in the way that an older generation
0:48:28 > 0:48:39doesn't?Not entirely!
0:48:39 > 0:48:45We had an assembly on lad culture. We were shown a video where men and
0:48:45 > 0:48:52women were saying horrible things about women.Everyone was on the
0:48:52 > 0:48:56whole quite serious abouts it in assembly. When we got out of the
0:48:56 > 0:48:59door people started joking and think - it doesn't apply to me. I could
0:48:59 > 0:49:07have a joke about it and a laugh about my mates. Part of that is, you
0:49:07 > 0:49:09know, looking quite sheepish or whatever in front of your mates if
0:49:09 > 0:49:14you agree with what has been said in the assembly or whatever.Part of it
0:49:14 > 0:49:22Right.Is not realising that that kind of joke, that kind of humour is
0:49:22 > 0:49:32part of the problem. That has to be stamped out.It's because you don't
0:49:32 > 0:49:42have power yet.
0:49:46 > 0:49:51She is right. People exploit their power. They exploit it in sexual
0:49:51 > 0:49:58matters and in terms of money and in terms of ma MEP layings. Not all
0:49:58 > 0:50:01powerful people do that. That is the temptation. How do you deal with it
0:50:01 > 0:50:13in the House of Commons, in politics.
0:50:13 > 0:50:16When it is tolerated because it shouldn't have been when somebody
0:50:16 > 0:50:19can be ruined by an accusation you have have new problems.
0:50:22 > 0:50:24Poor Mr Carl Sergeant who seems to have killed himself
0:50:24 > 0:50:27at the beginning of the week is an example of this.
0:50:27 > 0:50:31He was chucked out of the Welsh government and suspended
0:50:31 > 0:50:34from the Labour Party and he never knew, and he will never know,
0:50:34 > 0:50:44what he was accused of.
0:50:48 > 0:50:51This seems to me terribly wrong and it's again this sort of the rush
0:50:51 > 0:50:54that Kirstie referred to earlier on the programme in another matter
0:50:54 > 0:50:57that, people are more keen to accuse people than they are to get
0:50:57 > 0:50:59to the bottom of this and sort it out.
0:50:59 > 0:51:01We have got to have proper process and proper forms
0:51:01 > 0:51:04of inquiry to deal with it, we have to be serious
0:51:04 > 0:51:06about it rather than just accusing one another.
0:51:06 > 0:51:07All right.
0:51:07 > 0:51:08APPLAUSE.
0:51:08 > 0:51:11So, Stella Creasy, is that an argument that does apply
0:51:11 > 0:51:13to Carl Sergeant and the way he was treated?
0:51:13 > 0:51:15So, I know people might want to get into individual cases,
0:51:15 > 0:51:19I'm not going to because I'm very mindful that there will be alleged
0:51:19 > 0:51:21victims, there will be family members of Mr Sergeant who might be
0:51:21 > 0:51:24watching this tonight and it's a tragedy that Carl has died.
0:51:24 > 0:51:26I worked with Carl, I knew Carl.
0:51:26 > 0:51:31What I do want to talk about, so where I can agree with you,
0:51:31 > 0:51:34Charles, is about the importance of a process and what we have to do,
0:51:34 > 0:51:37particularly in Parliament and public life is take this away
0:51:37 > 0:51:38from the politics of it.
0:51:38 > 0:51:41A very, very wonderful young woman in the Labour Party called
0:51:41 > 0:51:44Becks Bailey went forward and was given a careers advice
0:51:44 > 0:51:46lesson when she tried to report a serious assault.
0:51:46 > 0:51:48That must never happen.
0:51:48 > 0:51:50We need people who're capable of dealing with people
0:51:50 > 0:51:54who've suffered trauma.
0:51:54 > 0:51:57That's what we are talking about.
0:51:57 > 0:52:00The challenge when you are dealing with this is one of the few things
0:52:00 > 0:52:02that happens to people and people always question you.
0:52:02 > 0:52:04So if you were to say, I had been burglared,
0:52:04 > 0:52:07nobody would say to you, are you sure, what was your house
0:52:07 > 0:52:10looking like at the time, tell me about the windows,
0:52:10 > 0:52:12tell me about the doors.
0:52:12 > 0:52:16Sadly what happens with this, partly because with power comes
0:52:16 > 0:52:18the capacity to shame people and to silence them through shame,
0:52:18 > 0:52:24that's what we have to be able to break through.
0:52:24 > 0:52:26There have been some incredibly brave people who've come forward
0:52:26 > 0:52:29in the last couple of weeks.
0:52:29 > 0:52:32The duty and responsibility on all of us absolutely is to get
0:52:32 > 0:52:35the process right but to do it in a way that makes sense
0:52:35 > 0:52:37to victims, victims of sexual violence, sexual assault
0:52:37 > 0:52:38and the problems that we are seeing now.
0:52:38 > 0:52:43We are a long way off that.
0:52:43 > 0:52:46We can get there if we take away the hysteria and the idea that
0:52:46 > 0:52:48somehow there is a witch-hunt and recognise how difficulties
0:52:48 > 0:52:51for people to come forward because of that concept of shame.
0:52:51 > 0:52:53That's not just in politics, that's across society.
0:52:53 > 0:52:54APPLAUSE.
0:52:54 > 0:52:55You in grey there?
0:52:55 > 0:53:04I think that Nathan made a very, very important point.
0:53:04 > 0:53:07He said, as a 17-year-old, he has more respect for women
0:53:07 > 0:53:08than some politicians.
0:53:08 > 0:53:11Charles, you said that is because you do not have power "yet".
0:53:11 > 0:53:13By you saying that, you are insinuating that
0:53:13 > 0:53:16when he becomes a very powerful man that he would then abuse women
0:53:16 > 0:53:18and that is not right.
0:53:18 > 0:53:21What we have is a culture where sexual abuse and sexual
0:53:21 > 0:53:23harassment towards women is accepted because men are powerful
0:53:23 > 0:53:27and that is clearly not right.
0:53:27 > 0:53:30You cannot insinuate that because he is not powerful then
0:53:30 > 0:53:33that's why he doesn't respect women.
0:53:33 > 0:53:36Respect of women should be a universal standard,
0:53:36 > 0:53:37it should be by politicians...
0:53:37 > 0:53:42APPLAUSE.
0:53:42 > 0:53:45All right.
0:53:45 > 0:53:48Regardless if you are powerful, if you are not powerful,
0:53:48 > 0:53:51it does not matter.
0:53:51 > 0:53:53So making that statement is perpetuating a very, very bad idea.
0:53:53 > 0:53:55It is what you said, Charles?
0:53:55 > 0:53:58I'm sorry if I didn't make myself clear, I completely agree with that.
0:53:58 > 0:54:00The point I'm making is about the temptation that people
0:54:00 > 0:54:04get when they get into power and this is what the abuse that has
0:54:04 > 0:54:05to be looked at all the time.
0:54:05 > 0:54:08It's not an excuse for it but I'm explaining it.
0:54:08 > 0:54:10But Charles I also think there is a generational issue
0:54:10 > 0:54:13here perhaps around what a younger generation thinks is acceptable
0:54:13 > 0:54:16and I think attitudes have moved on and I have to say
0:54:16 > 0:54:17in the right way frankly.
0:54:17 > 0:54:27Aditya?
0:54:30 > 0:54:32I think that's right.
0:54:32 > 0:54:34There is a cultural problem here of trivialising women,
0:54:34 > 0:54:36sometimes express itself very violent, sometimes it
0:54:36 > 0:54:39expresses itself in the pages of our newspapers and media.
0:54:39 > 0:54:42I'm a loyal reader of Charles Moore so before I came on, like Kirstie,
0:54:42 > 0:54:45I did a bit of research and I remember this piece Charles
0:54:45 > 0:54:47wrote for the Spectator in 2015 around the time
0:54:47 > 0:54:50of the Labour Leadership election and it was titled have Yvette Cooper
0:54:50 > 0:54:52and Liz Kendall got the looks for the Labour Leadership and there
0:54:52 > 0:54:54was an amazing conclusion...
0:54:54 > 0:55:00A writer never writes his own headline.
0:55:00 > 0:55:03An amazing conclusion.
0:55:03 > 0:55:05A writer never writes his own headline, as you know,
0:55:05 > 0:55:06you're a journalist.
0:55:06 > 0:55:09I do but I'm sure you wrote this bit though.
0:55:09 > 0:55:11You said there is something quite appealing about Yvette Cooper,
0:55:11 > 0:55:15he slightly French crop and her black-and-white dress.
0:55:15 > 0:55:23Serious policies seriously discussed.
0:55:23 > 0:55:29There is an issue which affects our politics in which people are treated
0:55:29 > 0:55:32as a lesser because they're women or because they're from ethnic
0:55:32 > 0:55:34minorities or because they come from working class backgrounds
0:55:34 > 0:55:44and that's what we need to get rid of.
0:55:46 > 0:55:48The woman there?
0:55:48 > 0:55:51I was listening to what Justine said and it was a bit worrying
0:55:51 > 0:55:53that she said they released a code of conduct.
0:55:53 > 0:55:56You would think that that would be something that should have already
0:55:56 > 0:55:58been done before you made Parliament.
0:55:58 > 0:56:01It's a shame there is not a lot of women in Parliament
0:56:01 > 0:56:03but these kind of situations are going to deter women from even
0:56:03 > 0:56:06wanting to be in Parliament because it's those things in the way
0:56:06 > 0:56:09that it's treated and handled, it's not just something that's
0:56:09 > 0:56:11happened the past three or four years, it's a generation generation
0:56:11 > 0:56:15of culture that's continued and nothing's been done about it.
0:56:15 > 0:56:18Joining why suddenly now, it's media.
0:56:18 > 0:56:21So what we are doing, there was an inquiry a long time ago
0:56:21 > 0:56:24when there were issues like this in the past around standards
0:56:24 > 0:56:28in public life and what we are doing now is frankly making sure it's
0:56:28 > 0:56:30actually fit for purpose today because of the problems
0:56:30 > 0:56:33we can see today.
0:56:33 > 0:56:40As we have been saying on the panel, a big part of this is Parliament
0:56:40 > 0:56:43as a work place, having some independent support and grievance
0:56:43 > 0:56:49processes for people who work there who need to raise issues
0:56:49 > 0:56:56and get them dealt with.
0:56:56 > 0:56:58And within the parties, that doesn't work as effectively,
0:56:58 > 0:56:59which is why we need it.
0:56:59 > 0:57:02The man in the spectacles there, at the very back?
0:57:02 > 0:57:04You with your hand up, yes, be quick, if you would?
0:57:04 > 0:57:05Thank you.
0:57:05 > 0:57:08What I suggest that Mrs May was to appoint a Minister
0:57:08 > 0:57:10for Manner and courtesy, and I would suggest Jacob Rees-Mogg.
0:57:10 > 0:57:11OK.
0:57:11 > 0:57:12You, Sir?
0:57:12 > 0:57:14You have spoken already I think.
0:57:14 > 0:57:15You, Sir, briefly, if you would?
0:57:15 > 0:57:19I think there is an element of we need to be very mindful
0:57:19 > 0:57:21of people being accused in terms of levels of protection.
0:57:21 > 0:57:23A prime example sadly is the Welsh MP.
0:57:23 > 0:57:25I'm very mindful that we have had a lot of celebrities
0:57:25 > 0:57:27and a lot of politicians, ex-service personnel,
0:57:27 > 0:57:29who've been effectively hounded erroneously as it turns out
0:57:29 > 0:57:32but their identity was splashed across all the social media.
0:57:32 > 0:57:38If an alleger is able to have some degree of anonymity until such
0:57:38 > 0:57:42an individual was charged or twos to court, surely they
0:57:42 > 0:57:45are also entitled to...
0:57:45 > 0:57:48This is such an important point because we don't have anonymity
0:57:48 > 0:57:52for any type of crime in this country so if you single out this,
0:57:52 > 0:57:55the message that you are sending, and we have worked so hard
0:57:55 > 0:57:58to challenge this within the police and the wider CPS,
0:57:58 > 0:58:02is that we don't believe people, we set a different standard of truth
0:58:02 > 0:58:05about this particular type of crime than we do for any other
0:58:05 > 0:58:06type of crime.
0:58:06 > 0:58:09Why are you asking for...
0:58:09 > 0:58:13I'm not saying that somebody who's served in the military for arguments
0:58:13 > 0:58:16sake, somebody who's a former Home Secretary, a former
0:58:16 > 0:58:19politician, and unfortunately this Welsh politician,
0:58:19 > 0:58:23that they are not deserving...
0:58:23 > 0:58:26I'm asking you because we know that when people come forward,
0:58:26 > 0:58:30as we have seen, it gives other people confidence that they will be
0:58:30 > 0:58:32believed because shame is in it.
0:58:32 > 0:58:35We have to stop there, I'm sorry, apologies to you both.
0:58:35 > 0:58:43Our hour is up.
0:58:43 > 0:58:45Our next Thursday Question Time is going to come from Newcastle and,
0:58:45 > 0:58:48among others on our panel, Emily Thornberry, Tim Farron,
0:58:48 > 0:58:51Rod Liddel and crime writer Val McDiarmid.
0:58:51 > 0:58:54That is in Newcastle and you can call to be there and go
0:58:54 > 0:58:56to the Question Time website, you can equally apply there.
0:59:04 > 0:59:08Question Time extra time follows on Five Live.
0:59:08 > 0:59:11We are discussing all of the issues we have been talking about.
0:59:11 > 0:59:14My thanks to the panel and to you who came here
0:59:14 > 0:59:16to Croydon to take part.
0:59:16 > 0:59:18Until next Thursday, good night.