0:00:03 > 0:00:07Tonight, we are in Newcastle, and welcome to Question Time.
0:00:15 > 0:00:17And with us tonight we have Emily Thornberry,
0:00:17 > 0:00:19Shadow Foreign Secretary, often tipped to be a future leader
0:00:19 > 0:00:22of the Labour Party.
0:00:22 > 0:00:24The Conservative MP born to Kurdish parents in Baghdad,
0:00:24 > 0:00:28Brexiteer businessman Nadhim Zahawi.
0:00:28 > 0:00:30Tim Farron, who resigned as leader of the Liberal Democrats,
0:00:30 > 0:00:33saying he was unable to reconcile the job with living
0:00:33 > 0:00:36as a faithful Christian.
0:00:36 > 0:00:38The columnist Rob Liddle, associate editor of the Spectator,
0:00:38 > 0:00:43columnist for the Sun and the Sunday Times.
0:00:43 > 0:00:47And once the captain of a winning team on University Challenge,
0:00:47 > 0:00:49who will have all the answers tonight, the crime
0:00:49 > 0:00:53writer Val McDermid.
0:01:03 > 0:01:05Thanks very much.
0:01:05 > 0:01:07Apart from our audience here, arguing with the panel,
0:01:07 > 0:01:09from home, of course, you can argue as well
0:01:09 > 0:01:13using our hashtag BBCQT, on Twitter, Facebook.
0:01:13 > 0:01:16Text 83981, and push the red button to see what others are saying.
0:01:16 > 0:01:23Our first question from Ivor Kavalczyk, please.
0:01:23 > 0:01:27Is a minimum price for a unit of alcohol a sensible idea?
0:01:27 > 0:01:30This was the idea that was announced today, the UK Supreme Court says
0:01:30 > 0:01:32the Scottish Parliament can, and the Scottish Parliament
0:01:32 > 0:01:34will do, which is a minimum price for alcohol.
0:01:34 > 0:01:38Emily Thornberry.
0:01:38 > 0:01:41Our position is that what we worry about is the super-strength alcohol,
0:01:41 > 0:01:45actually, and the really cheap, super-strength alcohol, which people
0:01:45 > 0:01:48buy, and that is the stuff which is addictive and leads,
0:01:48 > 0:01:53we think, them to do the worst sorts of anti-social behaviour.
0:01:53 > 0:01:55So we think work needs to be done on that specifically,
0:01:55 > 0:01:58and that is what our policy is.
0:01:58 > 0:02:01But are you in favour of what is going to happen
0:02:01 > 0:02:03in Scotland, cider going up in price four, five times?
0:02:03 > 0:02:09No, what I'm saying is that we want to concentrate
0:02:09 > 0:02:11on the super-strength stuff, on cheap, super-strength alcohol.
0:02:11 > 0:02:12That's what we would focus on.
0:02:12 > 0:02:15Well, what is the cheap, super-strength?
0:02:15 > 0:02:19Well, there are various types of cider and beers and so on that
0:02:19 > 0:02:25are particularly strong, and as I say, you will find you can
0:02:25 > 0:02:28buy them in supermarkets, in large quantities,
0:02:28 > 0:02:30and they are the things which people buy and drink
0:02:30 > 0:02:34in order to get drunk and get drunk fast.
0:02:34 > 0:02:36OK.
0:02:36 > 0:02:37Rod Liddle, what do you think?
0:02:37 > 0:02:40The news today was that, for instance, a bottle of cider
0:02:40 > 0:02:42from £3.59 would go up to £11.20.
0:02:42 > 0:02:44Are you in favour of that?
0:02:44 > 0:02:46No, of course not, because it penalises
0:02:46 > 0:02:47the poorest people in society.
0:02:47 > 0:02:50And I find that appalling.
0:02:50 > 0:02:52Whenever these sort of discussions take place, it is always
0:02:52 > 0:02:56the poor who get hit by it.
0:02:56 > 0:02:59So whenever we talk about what we need to do about obesity,
0:02:59 > 0:03:01it's put the price up, ban people from eating stuff.
0:03:01 > 0:03:04It would affect the poor.
0:03:04 > 0:03:06You never hear, when politicians talk about binge drinking,
0:03:06 > 0:03:10they don't mean someone having a nice Sancerre outside one of these
0:03:10 > 0:03:14places on your river here.
0:03:14 > 0:03:19They mean a poor person buying a large bunch of cider
0:03:19 > 0:03:22because he fancies a drink.
0:03:22 > 0:03:25So I'm absolutely opposed to it.
0:03:25 > 0:03:28We do have a problem with alcohol but the problem with alcohol
0:03:28 > 0:03:30is something which needs to be treated with, I think,
0:03:30 > 0:03:31as much as anything, education.
0:03:31 > 0:03:34And I think it is as prevalent, and studies suggest this is true,
0:03:34 > 0:03:36that it's just as prevalent amongst the middle classes,
0:03:36 > 0:03:40with their bottles of Sancerre, and who can afford these price
0:03:40 > 0:03:43hikes, as it is amongst the poorest of us.
0:03:43 > 0:03:45Don't deprive the poor people of this country of their pleasure.
0:03:45 > 0:03:48No.
0:03:48 > 0:03:54APPLAUSE
0:03:55 > 0:03:57Val McDermid, what do you make of it?
0:03:57 > 0:03:59This is not about depriving poor people of their pleasure.
0:03:59 > 0:04:02It's about preventing people from killing themselves
0:04:02 > 0:04:05with excessive quantities of alcohol they can buy incredibly cheaply.
0:04:05 > 0:04:08APPLAUSE
0:04:08 > 0:04:1116p a unit.
0:04:11 > 0:04:14Hundreds of people are dying in Scotland every year from alcohol.
0:04:14 > 0:04:17It is one of our biggest social problems.
0:04:17 > 0:04:21The education side of it is important, but that hasn't worked.
0:04:21 > 0:04:24So let's try something a little bit different and see if we can
0:04:24 > 0:04:25get a different result.
0:04:25 > 0:04:27But it does hurt the poorest, doesn't it?
0:04:27 > 0:04:29It is the poorest who get hurt.
0:04:29 > 0:04:31You may be right, Val, but it is the poor that
0:04:31 > 0:04:32that is targeted at.
0:04:32 > 0:04:35They are also the ones being killed by the policy of having
0:04:35 > 0:04:37really cheap alcohol.
0:04:37 > 0:04:41And on this point, actually, another thing I would really
0:04:41 > 0:04:44like to see happen is the monks of Buckfast putting their products
0:04:44 > 0:04:48in plastic bottles.
0:04:48 > 0:04:50Because this would ease the burden on the NHS in Scotland immensely,
0:04:50 > 0:04:53from people not being hit over the head with glass bottles
0:04:53 > 0:04:57of Buckfast on a Saturday night.
0:04:57 > 0:04:58You're laughing, but it actually isn't a joke.
0:04:58 > 0:05:01This is a major problem.
0:05:01 > 0:05:03People get drunk on this stuff, which is like a version
0:05:03 > 0:05:08of vodka and Red Bull, alcohol and caffeine.
0:05:08 > 0:05:09They get into fights, they become violent,
0:05:09 > 0:05:11they hit each other over the head with it.
0:05:11 > 0:05:14Go into a casualty department in Glasgow on a Saturday night
0:05:14 > 0:05:17and it's full of people being injured by this kind of thing.
0:05:17 > 0:05:20And the monks won't put it in plastic bottles because little
0:05:20 > 0:05:22old ladies in the south of England don't like elastic bottles
0:05:22 > 0:05:23on their tonic wine.
0:05:23 > 0:05:24OK, you, sir.
0:05:24 > 0:05:27I think they price hiked cigarettes, which are also killing people,
0:05:27 > 0:05:29and that hasn't prevented people from smoking.
0:05:29 > 0:05:32But then the price hike on cigarettes applies to everybody.
0:05:32 > 0:05:35This is only certain cheap liquor that's going to get
0:05:35 > 0:05:37the price increase, isn't it?
0:05:37 > 0:05:40You buy expensive wine, it won't go up in price.
0:05:40 > 0:05:41That's the point.
0:05:41 > 0:05:42They never do this.
0:05:42 > 0:05:47They won't attack their own drinks.
0:05:47 > 0:05:50You buy a bottle of champagne, it costs exactly the same.
0:05:50 > 0:05:52You know, it's just the stuff that poor people drink.
0:05:52 > 0:05:57You, sir, what do you think?
0:05:57 > 0:06:00I think that if we increase the price of the cheap alcohol,
0:06:00 > 0:06:05then people will look to illegitimate sources of alcohol.
0:06:05 > 0:06:07So people will start making it in their back gardens,
0:06:07 > 0:06:10in their streets, and that will be stronger, less high quality and then
0:06:10 > 0:06:12will lead to more deaths.
0:06:12 > 0:06:15I can't understand why people won't just load up vans of alcohol
0:06:15 > 0:06:17in England and take them across the border and sell them
0:06:17 > 0:06:19cheap on the black market.
0:06:19 > 0:06:22They probably will.
0:06:22 > 0:06:25It will be great business for Newcastle, I'm telling you.
0:06:25 > 0:06:26Yes, or Carlisle.
0:06:26 > 0:06:30What do you think, Tim Farron?
0:06:30 > 0:06:33I think the Scottish Parliament has used its devolved power to make
0:06:33 > 0:06:34a decision based on evidence.
0:06:34 > 0:06:37And you may not like the outcome, but I think they are
0:06:37 > 0:06:38entitled to make it.
0:06:38 > 0:06:41I think they have attempted to deal with what is a very real
0:06:41 > 0:06:43problem, as Val sets out.
0:06:43 > 0:06:45I'd do it a little bit differently.
0:06:45 > 0:06:48I think the concern I've got is that undoubtedly cheap pricing,
0:06:48 > 0:06:50a loss leader of particularly very strong forms of alcohol
0:06:50 > 0:06:54from the retailers, the supermarkets especially,
0:06:54 > 0:06:59does do damage.
0:06:59 > 0:07:02And then you look at the enormous tax burden on pubs,
0:07:02 > 0:07:05which are at the centre of our communities and are an absolutely
0:07:05 > 0:07:08vital industry to the country as a whole, and certainly to my part
0:07:08 > 0:07:09of the world in Cumbria.
0:07:09 > 0:07:12So my view is that you should shift the balance of taxation away
0:07:12 > 0:07:16from the pubs onto cheap supermarket booze, so you end up dealing
0:07:16 > 0:07:19with the real source of the problem whilst not taxing and hitting those
0:07:19 > 0:07:24places where people tend to drink most responsibly.
0:07:24 > 0:07:29APPLAUSE
0:07:29 > 0:07:32Nadhim Zahawi.
0:07:32 > 0:07:37The Scottish Government is now using its devolved tax hike.
0:07:37 > 0:07:42They've hiked up tax £400 for those earning 43,000 a year.
0:07:42 > 0:07:47I worry about this in the way Rod Liddle does.
0:07:47 > 0:07:51Is it going to make a difference, or is it just adding to the burden
0:07:51 > 0:07:54for those who are just managing?
0:07:54 > 0:07:58And the other issue you are going to create which,
0:07:58 > 0:08:01again, you touched on it, David, is will this mean
0:08:01 > 0:08:05lots of people driving from Scotland to Newcastle to load up on alcohol?
0:08:05 > 0:08:10Spending more on fuel...
0:08:10 > 0:08:13Ecological matter, you mean?
0:08:13 > 0:08:15Ecological matters.
0:08:15 > 0:08:17I don't think it's a good intervention, but let's wait
0:08:17 > 0:08:21and see the data beyond it.
0:08:21 > 0:08:23Is it popular in Scotland, Val, as a move?
0:08:23 > 0:08:25I think it is, by and large, yes.
0:08:25 > 0:08:29What I've been seeing and hearing on television and on the radio,
0:08:29 > 0:08:30people seem generally to approve of it.
0:08:30 > 0:08:33The people who are buying this really, really cheap lager
0:08:33 > 0:08:35and getting completely off their faces, cider, rather,
0:08:35 > 0:08:37they are not the ones who are going into pubs.
0:08:37 > 0:08:40This is not depriving the poor of the opportunity to go
0:08:40 > 0:08:41into the pub and have a pint.
0:08:41 > 0:08:44This is people who are specifically wanting to get off their head
0:08:44 > 0:08:46as quickly and as cheaply as possible, and
0:08:46 > 0:08:48that is not healthy.
0:08:48 > 0:08:50It is not a tax on the poor.
0:08:50 > 0:08:52It is a tax on the poor.
0:08:52 > 0:08:56What you say may be correct, but it's still a tax on the poor.
0:08:56 > 0:09:02The person in the third row from the back.
0:09:02 > 0:09:05My problem with it is it does nothing to address the root cause.
0:09:05 > 0:09:07Why are people drinking so much?
0:09:07 > 0:09:11There's nothing about that.
0:09:11 > 0:09:14Someone up there with their hand up in the centre.
0:09:14 > 0:09:20My concern is for the generation before myself, older people.
0:09:20 > 0:09:27The energy drinks are quite cheap at the moment, and obviously
0:09:27 > 0:09:31if they are going to keep drinking energy drinks and then
0:09:31 > 0:09:35they are going to transfer themselves onto cheap alcohol.
0:09:35 > 0:09:36OK.
0:09:36 > 0:09:38This is a measure for Scotland.
0:09:38 > 0:09:40Would anybody like to see this applying to England?
0:09:40 > 0:09:42Anybody in our audience have a strong view about that?
0:09:42 > 0:09:44You, sir.
0:09:44 > 0:09:49Yes, I disagree with Rod Liddle that it's a tax on the poor.
0:09:49 > 0:09:53I think if it were applied evenly, not all poor people drink.
0:09:53 > 0:09:56And it only applies, as Val says, to the cheapest strong alcohol.
0:09:56 > 0:10:03And I think, therefore, it would reduce the amount
0:10:03 > 0:10:07of drinks that people buy, and therefore would reduce
0:10:07 > 0:10:10how much they drink, and therefore reduce the medical
0:10:10 > 0:10:14and social problems that alcohol then causes.
0:10:14 > 0:10:15Let's go onto another question.
0:10:15 > 0:10:18This is from Amy Littler, please.
0:10:18 > 0:10:21Regarding the Brexit negotiations, would it be better to have a no
0:10:21 > 0:10:26deal, or a detrimental deal?
0:10:26 > 0:10:28Better no deal, rather than a detrimental deal?
0:10:28 > 0:10:30You voted in favour of Brexit.
0:10:30 > 0:10:34What's your view?
0:10:34 > 0:10:38The no deal option, Amy, is not a good deal.
0:10:38 > 0:10:40I'm on the Foreign Affairs Select Committee and we looked at this
0:10:40 > 0:10:43particular question and asked world experts to come and tell us.
0:10:43 > 0:10:45They told us that it would be mutually assured
0:10:45 > 0:10:48destruction for our economy.
0:10:48 > 0:10:51It would drop by about four percentage points.
0:10:51 > 0:10:54Also for the EU, the Netherlands, Ireland, even parts of Germany,
0:10:54 > 0:10:56its motor sector, for example.
0:10:56 > 0:10:58So that's not a good place to be and that's not
0:10:58 > 0:11:00what we're negotiating.
0:11:00 > 0:11:03At the moment the team, David Davis, the Prime Minister,
0:11:03 > 0:11:05everyone is committed to trying to get the best deal possible
0:11:05 > 0:11:08by effectively dealing with the issues that the EU 27 wants
0:11:08 > 0:11:11to deal with, so our financial settlement, the issue of Ireland
0:11:11 > 0:11:13and Northern Ireland and the border issue there,
0:11:13 > 0:11:20and and, of course of EU citizens living here...
0:11:20 > 0:11:22We know the detail.
0:11:22 > 0:11:24What she's saying is, is it better to walk away
0:11:24 > 0:11:26if you don't get the deal you want?
0:11:26 > 0:11:27That's the nub of the question.
0:11:27 > 0:11:30So if you go into any negotiation, and before becoming a member
0:11:30 > 0:11:33of Parliament I was a businessman, and I bought businesses
0:11:33 > 0:11:34all over the world.
0:11:34 > 0:11:36You can't go into negotiations saying, "I will never walk away,
0:11:36 > 0:11:39"I will take any deal you give me", because you will then
0:11:39 > 0:11:40guarantee a bad deal.
0:11:40 > 0:11:47APPLAUSE
0:11:47 > 0:11:49So you've got to make preparations that you can walk away.
0:11:49 > 0:11:51Our economy, 82% of our economy is domestic.
0:11:51 > 0:11:54So I will be looking forward to the Chancellor next week saying
0:11:54 > 0:11:57lots of good things about how we really keep this momentum going.
0:11:57 > 0:12:00The employment figures were excellent this week.
0:12:00 > 0:12:03The lowest unemployment since 1975.
0:12:03 > 0:12:07But you prepare for the worst outcome, but you absolutely try
0:12:07 > 0:12:10and go for as good a deal as possible, by putting forward
0:12:10 > 0:12:14the best possible option, for the other side to then agree
0:12:14 > 0:12:18to a trade deal that allows us full and unfettered access to the market,
0:12:18 > 0:12:21both for manufacturing but also for things like technology,
0:12:21 > 0:12:25which I know a little bit about, but services.
0:12:25 > 0:12:2780% of our economy, export services to Europe,
0:12:27 > 0:12:31but beyond Europe as well.
0:12:31 > 0:12:34But the idea behind this question, as I understand it, Amy,
0:12:34 > 0:12:37what you are saying is, is there a deal so bad
0:12:37 > 0:12:39that it would be better to walk away from it?
0:12:39 > 0:12:40Yes.
0:12:40 > 0:12:43Emily Thornberry.
0:12:43 > 0:12:45You see, I have asked this question.
0:12:45 > 0:12:47I've said, "When you talk about a bad deal,
0:12:47 > 0:12:48"what are you talking about?
0:12:48 > 0:12:50"What is this bad deal that we could have"?
0:12:50 > 0:12:52Because we need to have a negotiation here.
0:12:52 > 0:12:54The public needs to be informed.
0:12:54 > 0:12:58First of all we need to be informed about what no deal looks like.
0:12:58 > 0:13:00And at one stage the Tories weren't even talking about that.
0:13:00 > 0:13:04And then when they're saying a bad deal is better than whatever it is,
0:13:04 > 0:13:07no deal is better than a bad deal, what do you mean?
0:13:07 > 0:13:08What does a bad deal look like?
0:13:08 > 0:13:11Because I think that no deal means that we crash out,
0:13:11 > 0:13:14we have no ongoing relationship with our closest allies,
0:13:14 > 0:13:16with whom we have traded, the large proportion of our trade
0:13:16 > 0:13:19has gone with the European Union.
0:13:19 > 0:13:22The planes will not be able to fly...
0:13:22 > 0:13:23That's not true, Emily.
0:13:23 > 0:13:24They will not.
0:13:24 > 0:13:26You know that already.
0:13:26 > 0:13:28Willie Walsh, the head of British Airways has
0:13:28 > 0:13:30said that is not true.
0:13:30 > 0:13:34ROD LIDDLE:And bees will attack us!
0:13:34 > 0:13:36Well, European regulation...
0:13:36 > 0:13:39Be honest with your audience, Emily.
0:13:39 > 0:13:43European regulation of aircraft is one that we are signed up to,
0:13:43 > 0:13:46and if we leave the European Union with no deal at all,
0:13:46 > 0:13:48we are not in that deal any more.
0:13:48 > 0:13:49It is a serious matter.
0:13:49 > 0:13:52There are a number of things.
0:13:52 > 0:13:55We will have lorry parks where we will not be able
0:13:55 > 0:13:57to export our goods, and everything will be gone through.
0:13:57 > 0:14:00It will be an absolute disaster if we have no deal.
0:14:00 > 0:14:03And the reason that we are being softened up to think that no deal
0:14:03 > 0:14:07may happen is because this government is incompetent
0:14:07 > 0:14:10and cannot negotiate properly with the European Union.
0:14:10 > 0:14:15And we are being softened up because they will not be able
0:14:15 > 0:14:18to agree amongst themselves what kind of deal that they want.
0:14:18 > 0:14:21And it's getting worse.
0:14:21 > 0:14:23Not only can they not agree what a deal is
0:14:23 > 0:14:25supposed to look like.
0:14:25 > 0:14:26There are two deals needed.
0:14:26 > 0:14:29There is the divorce deal, and then there is the ongoing relationship
0:14:29 > 0:14:30with the European Union.
0:14:30 > 0:14:32So let's just talk about the divorce package.
0:14:32 > 0:14:34Now we've got legislation before Parliament at the moment,
0:14:34 > 0:14:37and they want, as a complete gimmick, to have a solid date put
0:14:37 > 0:14:40into legislation whereby we have to have a deal by that date.
0:14:40 > 0:14:43And that makes it impossible, so that if they come back
0:14:43 > 0:14:47with some half baked idea, and they put it back before
0:14:47 > 0:14:50Parliament and they will say to us, "Take it or leave it.
0:14:50 > 0:14:53"If you don't agree to this, we are going to have no deal at all".
0:14:53 > 0:14:55That is no way of proceeding.
0:14:55 > 0:14:59We need to be able to have our say...
0:14:59 > 0:15:02Emily, we get the point.
0:15:02 > 0:15:08We will have plenty of time to talk as the argument goes on.
0:15:08 > 0:15:11On that particular point, you say, from Labour's point of view,
0:15:11 > 0:15:13you would like the negotiations to go on not two years,
0:15:13 > 0:15:16but three, four, five years, as long as it takes?
0:15:16 > 0:15:17No.
0:15:17 > 0:15:18Why are you against having...
0:15:18 > 0:15:19OK, let me explain.
0:15:19 > 0:15:20No.
0:15:20 > 0:15:21Hang on.
0:15:21 > 0:15:24Are you in favour of having the deadline that's going before
0:15:24 > 0:15:26Parliament, two years from now it has to be done?
0:15:26 > 0:15:28I think we have to have flexibility.
0:15:28 > 0:15:30I think we have to be realistic and grown-up.
0:15:30 > 0:15:35Any relationship, if I am having a conversation
0:15:35 > 0:15:39or row with my other half, I'm not going in to try to persuade
0:15:39 > 0:15:41him I am right about something by going in and saying,
0:15:41 > 0:15:44if you don't agree with me, I am going to walk out.
0:15:44 > 0:15:46This is not the way you do things.
0:15:46 > 0:15:50Article 50 says it has to be done by the end of March 2019.
0:15:50 > 0:15:51Are you in favour of sticking with that?
0:15:51 > 0:15:54You voted for it.
0:15:54 > 0:16:00So we voted for Article 50 and we're leaving the European Union.
0:16:00 > 0:16:03We have to make sensible decisions, and we need to be able to negotiate.
0:16:03 > 0:16:05If we find ourselves in a situation whereby
0:16:05 > 0:16:08we need another two weeks, another month, 26 other
0:16:08 > 0:16:10countries have agreed to it and the 27th hasn't...
0:16:10 > 0:16:11And another year, another two years?
0:16:11 > 0:16:13No.
0:16:13 > 0:16:16But what we don't want is to have on the face of the bill,
0:16:16 > 0:16:18to have it in solid legislation that no matter what happens,
0:16:18 > 0:16:21there is no flexibility at all.
0:16:21 > 0:16:26This is exactly the sort of attitude this government has gone into these
0:16:26 > 0:16:29negotiations with and that is why they are selling us short.
0:16:29 > 0:16:30Rod Liddle.
0:16:30 > 0:16:32I agree with Emily Thornberry about the utter mind-boggling
0:16:32 > 0:16:36incompetence of this government.
0:16:36 > 0:16:38Clearly to my mind the worst government that we have had,
0:16:38 > 0:16:42certainly within my living memory.
0:16:42 > 0:16:46APPLAUSE
0:16:46 > 0:16:51And the problems which have mounted up have mounted up
0:16:51 > 0:16:55because it is ill-disciplined.
0:16:55 > 0:16:58They keep opening their fat gobs when they shouldn't.
0:16:58 > 0:16:59They contradict one another and they grandstand.
0:16:59 > 0:17:02And all of that is undermining our negotiations with Europe.
0:17:02 > 0:17:06I just wish you could tell them, shut up and do as you're told
0:17:06 > 0:17:09and put the country first instead of your own pathetic
0:17:09 > 0:17:10political careers.
0:17:10 > 0:17:12Because what we are seeing
0:17:12 > 0:17:15at the moment is jockeying for position to replace Theresa May.
0:17:15 > 0:17:17If you want rid of her, get rid of her.
0:17:17 > 0:17:18I don't object to that.
0:17:18 > 0:17:19I don't think anyone would.
0:17:19 > 0:17:20But be clear.
0:17:20 > 0:17:23APPLAUSE
0:17:23 > 0:17:25All right.
0:17:25 > 0:17:27Back to the main issue, I think you are right.
0:17:27 > 0:17:32I don't agree with Emily about this.
0:17:32 > 0:17:34I think it is ludicrous to go into negotiations with one hand
0:17:34 > 0:17:36tied behind your back, because you cannot say
0:17:36 > 0:17:39that you will walk away if you don't get the right deal.
0:17:39 > 0:17:41That is common sense.
0:17:41 > 0:17:46But your government, Philip Hammond and then Justine Greening,
0:17:46 > 0:17:49both said it was inconceivable you would not have a deal
0:17:49 > 0:17:51and you almost said it yourself.
0:17:51 > 0:17:54So I do not know where you are going with this.
0:17:54 > 0:17:57It is an absolute catastrophe.
0:17:57 > 0:18:00I know a lot of people here did not vote to leave.
0:18:00 > 0:18:01I did.
0:18:01 > 0:18:03It was a close call.
0:18:03 > 0:18:08These problems are not occasioned by Brexit itself,
0:18:08 > 0:18:10it is occasioned by a deeply, deeply incompetent government.
0:18:10 > 0:18:12All right.
0:18:12 > 0:18:13Tim Farron.
0:18:13 > 0:18:15A number of people with their hands up.
0:18:15 > 0:18:17I will come to you in just a moment.
0:18:17 > 0:18:22I certainly agree with the last bit of what Rod said.
0:18:22 > 0:18:28I saw a well-respected older Tory backbencher
0:18:28 > 0:18:31who tweeted the other day, oh, gosh, it feels like 92-97 again
0:18:31 > 0:18:32in the Conservative Party.
0:18:32 > 0:18:35My response to that is it is far worse than that.
0:18:35 > 0:18:3892-97, the Tories had Major, Heseltine and Clark.
0:18:38 > 0:18:40They had grown-ups running the shop.
0:18:40 > 0:18:43And now you have a bunch of people concerned only
0:18:43 > 0:18:46for their own careers, not for their country and not
0:18:46 > 0:18:50for our children's future.
0:18:50 > 0:18:53Michel Barnier, once upon a time had coffee and croissants for breakfast.
0:18:53 > 0:18:57Now he has David Davis every flipping day.
0:18:57 > 0:19:00It worries me because these people are there to negotiate my children's
0:19:00 > 0:19:01future, your future.
0:19:01 > 0:19:02That really bothers me.
0:19:02 > 0:19:05Whether you vote Leave or Remain, you should be appalled
0:19:05 > 0:19:09at the quality of your team that is out there.
0:19:09 > 0:19:13Bad deal, no deal, I do not think there is a worse deal than no deal
0:19:13 > 0:19:16because if you leave the European Union without a deal,
0:19:16 > 0:19:21you have tariffs above 50% on British food products
0:19:21 > 0:19:23going into the single market, you cut yourself off from 50 trade
0:19:23 > 0:19:26deals the EU is part of.
0:19:26 > 0:19:32Another 67 that are being written up at the moment.
0:19:32 > 0:19:34You have given me option one, no deal.
0:19:34 > 0:19:35Option two, bad deal.
0:19:35 > 0:19:36I will give you option three.
0:19:36 > 0:19:39We have got a brilliant deal at the moment.
0:19:39 > 0:19:41Why do we let the British people have the final
0:19:41 > 0:19:43say on the final deal?
0:19:43 > 0:19:45If they want to vote to stay, then they can.
0:19:45 > 0:19:49You have heard both sides.
0:19:49 > 0:19:51Both of them were claptrap.
0:19:51 > 0:19:53Because first of all, you're going to have
0:19:53 > 0:19:54to have a proper debate about this.
0:19:54 > 0:19:57I sat in the chamber, Rod, over the last couple
0:19:57 > 0:19:58of days of the debate.
0:19:58 > 0:20:00It is very important we hear from people like Dominic Grieve,
0:20:00 > 0:20:02because the detail is important.
0:20:02 > 0:20:04And if that sounds to you like division, it is not,
0:20:04 > 0:20:12it is about making sure we get the legislation right, Rod.
0:20:12 > 0:20:15But you cannot say on the one hand it is vital we go into these
0:20:15 > 0:20:19negotiations letting people know we will walk away if the deal is not
0:20:19 > 0:20:21right and then have your Chancellor and other ministers immediately
0:20:21 > 0:20:24undermine that position and say it does not matter that this
0:20:24 > 0:20:25will never happen.
0:20:25 > 0:20:26You have to be clear about this.
0:20:26 > 0:20:28Let me try to repeat myself.
0:20:28 > 0:20:29Do not repeat yourself.
0:20:29 > 0:20:34Say something new.
0:20:34 > 0:20:36New, but different words.
0:20:36 > 0:20:39In any negotiation you have to be clear and realistic and no deal
0:20:39 > 0:20:41is not a good outcome.
0:20:41 > 0:20:46You can say that but you have to prepare for it if that is where
0:20:46 > 0:20:48we end up with our interlocutors on the other side.
0:20:48 > 0:20:49You can say that.
0:20:49 > 0:20:51The idea you pretend it is not there.
0:20:51 > 0:20:53But to say it is inconceivable...
0:20:53 > 0:20:55I did not say that.
0:20:55 > 0:20:57You have to prepare for it.
0:20:57 > 0:20:59And go for a good deal.
0:20:59 > 0:21:01I think that is where we will end up.
0:21:01 > 0:21:03Let's hear from our audience.
0:21:03 > 0:21:06You have been sitting patiently while this has been going on.
0:21:06 > 0:21:07Not very patiently.
0:21:07 > 0:21:08You have been sitting, anyway.
0:21:08 > 0:21:13The woman at the back.
0:21:13 > 0:21:19I cannot believe I am agreeing with a Sun journalist but in terms
0:21:19 > 0:21:24of the government being incompetent, isn't it the case it is also
0:21:24 > 0:21:27possibly negligent the government are continuing with
0:21:27 > 0:21:31the negotiations, having not considered the Brexit impact reports
0:21:31 > 0:21:36currently being redacted, I am sorry, drafted and not waiting
0:21:36 > 0:21:38and pausing the whole thing until we have looked
0:21:38 > 0:21:40at what it actually means.
0:21:40 > 0:21:42You would put it on hold for the moment?
0:21:42 > 0:21:43I would, yes.
0:21:43 > 0:21:48Over there.
0:21:48 > 0:21:55Just going back to what Tim Farron said, do the panel see the irony
0:21:55 > 0:21:58that some call a second EU referendum when we know what this
0:21:58 > 0:22:01deal looks like as undemocratic and against the will of the people?
0:22:01 > 0:22:04Val McDermid.
0:22:04 > 0:22:06I am not a politician.
0:22:06 > 0:22:10Like everybody else in this room, I do not have access
0:22:10 > 0:22:14to the papers that tell me what deals are available.
0:22:14 > 0:22:16I don't know what this government is negotiating, because, of course,
0:22:16 > 0:22:22we have not been able to see the briefing first.
0:22:22 > 0:22:27One thing I know is no deal will mean the only people
0:22:27 > 0:22:30who will benefit are the lawyers who will spend the next 50
0:22:30 > 0:22:31years arguing about this.
0:22:31 > 0:22:34I really don't want my taxes spent on lawyers' bills.
0:22:34 > 0:22:35OK.
0:22:35 > 0:22:36The woman who had her hand up.
0:22:36 > 0:22:37Where was it?
0:22:37 > 0:22:40You, sir, then.
0:22:40 > 0:22:44Can I just say, it is easy to sit by the wayside and criticise
0:22:44 > 0:22:48when you are not actually at the table yourself.
0:22:48 > 0:22:51And I get a little bit sick of Labour and the far left just
0:22:51 > 0:22:53constantly criticising what is a really difficult
0:22:53 > 0:22:59decision to make.
0:22:59 > 0:23:02It is easy to criticise on points, when you are not under
0:23:02 > 0:23:05the pressure at the table.
0:23:05 > 0:23:10Can I just say as well, that you have got to go into any
0:23:10 > 0:23:12negotiations with the intention of coming away, if you can't meet,
0:23:12 > 0:23:14mutually, with an agreement.
0:23:14 > 0:23:17It is not hard.
0:23:17 > 0:23:19It is easy to roll over and have your belly tickled, but,
0:23:19 > 0:23:22at the end of the day, you have to negotiate hard.
0:23:22 > 0:23:24Hold on.
0:23:24 > 0:23:28It was addressed to Emily and Labour.
0:23:28 > 0:23:34We have been clear throughout, we have to leave the European Union
0:23:34 > 0:23:37but we have to bear in mind this is about people's jobs.
0:23:37 > 0:23:38It is about jobs.
0:23:38 > 0:23:41We have to make sure, as we leave the European Union,
0:23:41 > 0:23:43we look after our economy, because if this goes badly,
0:23:43 > 0:23:47people will lose their jobs.
0:23:47 > 0:23:50What we are faced with is a government that will not put that
0:23:50 > 0:23:52at the forefront of their mind.
0:23:52 > 0:23:55What they have at the forefront of their mind is trying to keep
0:23:55 > 0:23:57the Tory party together and their own internal fights.
0:23:57 > 0:24:01And they are putting down all kinds of red lines,
0:24:01 > 0:24:04we won't do this, we won't do that, we insist on our curly bananas.
0:24:04 > 0:24:09We insist on leaving the European Court of Justice.
0:24:09 > 0:24:12All of this, no, what we should be doing is negotiating something that
0:24:12 > 0:24:16will look after our economy and I tell you, sir, if we walk away
0:24:16 > 0:24:18from the European Union and we are not able to trade
0:24:18 > 0:24:22with this big bloc any more, people will lose their jobs
0:24:22 > 0:24:24in hundreds of thousands and they will be the youngsters
0:24:24 > 0:24:25more than anyone else.
0:24:25 > 0:24:30This is serious.
0:24:30 > 0:24:33I do not believe this government is taking it serious.
0:24:33 > 0:24:34170 days to go before...
0:24:34 > 0:24:36we triggered Article 50.
0:24:36 > 0:24:40And I wrote to the government and I said answer a question a day.
0:24:40 > 0:24:40Focus.
0:24:40 > 0:24:42Before you trigger Article 50.
0:24:42 > 0:24:45And they wrote back and they said, no, we are not going
0:24:45 > 0:24:46to answer the questions.
0:24:46 > 0:24:47But you voted for Article 50.
0:24:47 > 0:24:49Why did you vote for it?
0:24:49 > 0:24:53Because the public want us to leave the European Union
0:24:53 > 0:24:56and we are democrats first and foremost and we do
0:24:56 > 0:25:00as the public have told us.
0:25:00 > 0:25:03You do as the Tory party tells you in this case.
0:25:03 > 0:25:04No.
0:25:04 > 0:25:07We do as the public have told us and we leave the European Union
0:25:07 > 0:25:11and it is our job as the opposition to try to keep this government
0:25:11 > 0:25:13honest and try to keep them focused on looking
0:25:13 > 0:25:14after the economy and people's jobs.
0:25:14 > 0:25:24The woman on the right.
0:25:24 > 0:25:26We keep hearing this thrown around within Labour,
0:25:26 > 0:25:28a jobs first Brexit, but there is no such thing
0:25:28 > 0:25:29as a jobs first Brexit.
0:25:29 > 0:25:30Even...
0:25:30 > 0:25:33Just in the north-east, so this is not even nationally.
0:25:33 > 0:25:36We are set to lose tens, if not hundreds of thousands of jobs.
0:25:36 > 0:25:39In a five-year period, we got 524.4 million pounds from the EU.
0:25:39 > 0:25:41A lot of which was spent on getting people into work,
0:25:41 > 0:25:44getting people fit for work and training people up.
0:25:44 > 0:25:46That is not a jobs first Brexit, if we leave.
0:25:46 > 0:25:48There is no such thing as a jobs first Brexit.
0:25:48 > 0:25:50That is spot-on in my view.
0:25:50 > 0:25:52The gentleman at the front who talked about it
0:25:52 > 0:25:53being easy to criticise.
0:25:53 > 0:25:55It really is easy to criticise.
0:25:55 > 0:25:58The problem is that if I had voted Leave, I would feel
0:25:58 > 0:26:01I had been sold a pup.
0:26:01 > 0:26:06I would feel that what had happened is that a Conservative Party,
0:26:06 > 0:26:09to prevent an age-old split in it over several decades decide to call
0:26:09 > 0:26:11for a referendum to deal with the internal politics,
0:26:11 > 0:26:15made no preparations whatsoever as to how you might deal with it
0:26:15 > 0:26:20if you ended up in a Leave situation and now we are in this mess.
0:26:20 > 0:26:23I don't want this continuation of the battle between Leave and Remain.
0:26:23 > 0:26:25The people who voted Leave and Remain should be united
0:26:25 > 0:26:27in thinking this government has stuffed them.
0:26:27 > 0:26:29OK, I will take a couple more points.
0:26:29 > 0:26:32You, sir, there.
0:26:32 > 0:26:37Is it not the case Labour's Brexit policy does not stack up?
0:26:37 > 0:26:41They say they want to put a jobs first Brexit,
0:26:41 > 0:26:49they want such a good deal, they will stay in the single market,
0:26:49 > 0:26:51an equivalent to the single market, and the customs union,
0:26:51 > 0:26:54and if they don't get that they will carry on talking ad
0:26:54 > 0:26:57nauseam and if they have talked ad nauseam and it still does not work
0:26:57 > 0:27:01out, they will then move on and say, well, we might as well just stay.
0:27:01 > 0:27:02No, no, no.
0:27:02 > 0:27:03Hang on.
0:27:03 > 0:27:06The EU wants us to stay in.
0:27:06 > 0:27:12If you go in with the position saying you are not prepared
0:27:12 > 0:27:15to leave, the EU will say we will just give you a bad deal
0:27:15 > 0:27:16because that will make you stay.
0:27:16 > 0:27:19So Labour's position is that we have to leave
0:27:19 > 0:27:20because that was the result of the referendum.
0:27:20 > 0:27:22What we have to do is...
0:27:22 > 0:27:24We have not plumped for.
0:27:24 > 0:27:28Let her answer the question.
0:27:28 > 0:27:30We are not going to represent the 48%, or the 52%,
0:27:30 > 0:27:34we are trying to represent the whole country and we are trying to keep
0:27:34 > 0:27:35the country together.
0:27:35 > 0:27:39The best way of doing that is we leave, but we do not
0:27:39 > 0:27:40need to go very far.
0:27:40 > 0:27:42We have to look after people's jobs.
0:27:42 > 0:27:46We have to bear in mind that frankly part of the discussion
0:27:46 > 0:27:49during the referendum was about such things as migration and changing
0:27:49 > 0:27:50the rules on migration.
0:27:50 > 0:27:55What we should do is go to our European partners
0:27:55 > 0:27:58and our friends and say to them, look, this is the situation.
0:27:58 > 0:28:01Labour did not want to leave, but the public have decided this
0:28:01 > 0:28:02is where we should go.
0:28:02 > 0:28:06And what we want to do is to find the best way through this.
0:28:06 > 0:28:08We want to remain close to you, but, frankly,
0:28:08 > 0:28:10there are changes we need to make.
0:28:10 > 0:28:12Not go in and say, we demand this and that.
0:28:12 > 0:28:13That is how you negotiate.
0:28:13 > 0:28:14You haven't answered the position.
0:28:14 > 0:28:20Yes, I have.
0:28:20 > 0:28:23I have answered that we're leaving and we are looking after the economy
0:28:23 > 0:28:25and we do not need to go very far.
0:28:25 > 0:28:29If they say to you we are not going to give you a good deal,
0:28:29 > 0:28:32at what point are you going to say we are going to walk away?
0:28:32 > 0:28:35If we did not stand on the steps of number 10 Downing St immediately
0:28:35 > 0:28:38before the general election and say the Europeans are conspiring
0:28:38 > 0:28:40against us and therefore we need a general election,
0:28:40 > 0:28:43I mean there have been lies told by the Tory party and they have
0:28:43 > 0:28:46wound the situation up in a way that is completely irresponsible.
0:28:46 > 0:28:48But you are not answering his point.
0:28:48 > 0:28:51My point is that the EU definitively want us to stay.
0:28:51 > 0:28:56If Labour is going to say that it won't leave without a good deal,
0:28:56 > 0:28:59the EU position will be, we will give you a terrible deal,
0:28:59 > 0:29:00then you won't leave.
0:29:00 > 0:29:01All right.
0:29:01 > 0:29:03I'll go to the woman in the fourth row.
0:29:03 > 0:29:05Fifth row, yes.
0:29:05 > 0:29:08The woman in white.
0:29:08 > 0:29:11This is not going very far isn't going far enough.
0:29:11 > 0:29:14We voted to leave the European Union and we should be
0:29:14 > 0:29:17adhering to the vote.
0:29:17 > 0:29:20This no deal, to me is starting to sound quite appealing
0:29:20 > 0:29:23because it is a hard Brexit, and that is what the
0:29:23 > 0:29:23country voted for.
0:29:23 > 0:29:34And the man just in front of you.
0:29:38 > 0:29:41The EU currently represents just 15% of the world's economy
0:29:41 > 0:29:43and it is forecast to go down to 12% by 2030.
0:29:43 > 0:29:45Are we overvaluing a Brexit deal?
0:29:45 > 0:29:47Do you agree with the woman behind you?
0:29:47 > 0:29:48Just cut loose?
0:29:48 > 0:29:49Europe's only worth 15% today.
0:29:49 > 0:29:51In 2030, it is only going to be worth 12%.
0:29:51 > 0:29:52Do you want a brief last point?
0:29:52 > 0:29:56You have to have a strategy, and the only party at the moment
0:29:56 > 0:29:58who has actually got a strategy with bills coming through Parliament
0:29:58 > 0:29:59is the Conservative Party.
0:29:59 > 0:30:02Did you say that with a straight face?
0:30:02 > 0:30:04Tim Farron's party put out a pamphlet, a leaflet that says,
0:30:04 > 0:30:07"No ifs, no buts, we'll trust the British people.
0:30:07 > 0:30:09"If they vote to leave, we'll leave".
0:30:09 > 0:30:12Now they want to go back to the British people to see
0:30:12 > 0:30:14if they can change their mind.
0:30:14 > 0:30:16Emily Thornberry's had three goes at trying to explain
0:30:16 > 0:30:17the Labour position.
0:30:17 > 0:30:18Clearly she can't because they are flip-flopping
0:30:18 > 0:30:21because John McDonnell says, "I will not countenance ever
0:30:21 > 0:30:22"leaving, whatever deal they give us".
0:30:22 > 0:30:24So that's why Emily's all over the place.
0:30:24 > 0:30:29We will leave it there for this week on Brexit,
0:30:29 > 0:30:32with everybody all over the place, as seems to be
0:30:32 > 0:30:35the standard position.
0:30:35 > 0:30:40So just before we go on, about next week,
0:30:40 > 0:30:43we are in Colchester next week and a week after that
0:30:43 > 0:30:46in Scarborough.
0:30:46 > 0:30:48Colchester, then Scarborough.
0:30:48 > 0:30:51There is the address on the screen if you would like to come.
0:30:51 > 0:30:53The next question comes from Andrew Bryson, please.
0:30:53 > 0:30:57Should children be able to choose their gender?
0:30:57 > 0:31:01Should children be able to choose their agenda?
0:31:01 > 0:31:06Tim Farron.
0:31:06 > 0:31:08This relates to the Church of England's documentation
0:31:08 > 0:31:10to its schools in the last few days.
0:31:10 > 0:31:13I think the first principle, and this is the reason why
0:31:13 > 0:31:18the Church of England sent this circular out, is to tackle
0:31:18 > 0:31:22what is undoubtedly the case, and that is bullying.
0:31:22 > 0:31:25It is about people being treated in ways which are unequal.
0:31:25 > 0:31:28And children, I think, in most of our experience,
0:31:28 > 0:31:32are utterly accepting and capable of being incredibly cruel.
0:31:32 > 0:31:36So to be able to give that sort of advice through teachers,
0:31:36 > 0:31:40that they should ensure that these issues are properly addressed,
0:31:40 > 0:31:42I think that is right.
0:31:42 > 0:31:43I think that is good.
0:31:43 > 0:31:46And an important principle as well, though, is to make sure that
0:31:46 > 0:31:49you first of all do no harm.
0:31:49 > 0:31:52And it's important that when we look at the reality of the research
0:31:52 > 0:31:55around gender dysphoria, for example, that we follow
0:31:55 > 0:32:00the evidence and we don't just make things up as we go along.
0:32:00 > 0:32:03My concern is that there isn't sufficient evidence out there,
0:32:03 > 0:32:05sufficient research, to be able to tell us
0:32:05 > 0:32:08about the impact upon children, about the age at which these
0:32:08 > 0:32:10decisions can be made.
0:32:10 > 0:32:13And I am worried, a little bit, about making things up as we go
0:32:13 > 0:32:17along on the basis of evidence that is not yet there.
0:32:17 > 0:32:21What damage do we do, to tell quite young children that
0:32:21 > 0:32:25gender is not about how you are built but how you feel?
0:32:25 > 0:32:28What does that do?
0:32:28 > 0:32:31And I don't know the answer to that.
0:32:31 > 0:32:33What was it about the Church of England that caught your
0:32:33 > 0:32:35attention and became an issue for you?
0:32:35 > 0:32:36About their edict?
0:32:36 > 0:32:40I think the clear motivation was to try and tackle
0:32:40 > 0:32:44bullying, and I think that is right.
0:32:44 > 0:32:44OK.
0:32:44 > 0:32:46Val McDermid.
0:32:46 > 0:32:49I think that children and adolescents want
0:32:49 > 0:32:52to explore the world.
0:32:52 > 0:32:55For too long we have forced people into hiding about their gender
0:32:55 > 0:32:56and their sexuality.
0:32:56 > 0:32:58I think it's entirely reasonable that people should be allowed
0:32:58 > 0:33:01to express themselves as they feel inside themselves.
0:33:01 > 0:33:05That's not to say that we rush to the extremes
0:33:05 > 0:33:08of surgery, for example.
0:33:08 > 0:33:12And I think that we ought to hold back with that end of things
0:33:12 > 0:33:16until people are at the kind of age of consent where they get to do
0:33:16 > 0:33:18other things that we think young people shouldn't be
0:33:18 > 0:33:19allowed to do.
0:33:19 > 0:33:25APPLAUSE
0:33:25 > 0:33:28When I was little, I was a tomboy, I wanted to climb trees.
0:33:28 > 0:33:29I wanted to wear jeans.
0:33:29 > 0:33:32And I turned out to be a lesbian.
0:33:32 > 0:33:34I don't think the two things are connected because gender isn't
0:33:34 > 0:33:36the same thing as sexuality.
0:33:36 > 0:33:39But I think if you push people into the idea that if you feel
0:33:39 > 0:33:43like you want to wear trousers and climb trees for a few years
0:33:43 > 0:33:46then you must be a boy, that's dangerous as well,
0:33:46 > 0:33:49and it pushes people who may be gay into thinking that actually
0:33:49 > 0:33:53they are not really gay, they are the opposite gender.
0:33:53 > 0:33:55So I think it's something where we proceed carefully,
0:33:55 > 0:33:57we listen to what the children themselves have to say,
0:33:57 > 0:34:00what young people themselves have to say, but we don't push
0:34:00 > 0:34:02them towards decisions that are irrevocable.
0:34:02 > 0:34:09APPLAUSE
0:34:09 > 0:34:11What do you think?
0:34:11 > 0:34:14Can I just say, I love the way you just put that, Val?
0:34:14 > 0:34:19So when I was at school, there was a boy in my class
0:34:19 > 0:34:24who clearly got terribly bullied, who was clearly the wrong
0:34:24 > 0:34:30gender, when I reflect on it and I look back.
0:34:30 > 0:34:37And listening, I think on BBC Radio Four there
0:34:37 > 0:34:42was a programme about a family with a young child who was clearly
0:34:42 > 0:34:44going through something very similar, and it is heartbreaking.
0:34:44 > 0:34:48For a father of two older boys and a little girl now,
0:34:48 > 0:34:51this is the toughest thing.
0:34:51 > 0:34:54But the way you expressed it, i.e. we should be able to speak
0:34:54 > 0:34:58about this to children.
0:34:58 > 0:35:02They should be able to explore at school so that you cut out
0:35:02 > 0:35:06the bullying, but actually be careful, be very careful
0:35:06 > 0:35:08until they reach the age of consent before you begin
0:35:08 > 0:35:12to intervene medically.
0:35:12 > 0:35:15So what's your answer to should children be able
0:35:15 > 0:35:17to choose their gender, which is how Andrew Bryson put it?
0:35:17 > 0:35:21I'll come to you, Andrew, in a moment.
0:35:21 > 0:35:25I would say, I think they should be able to explore,
0:35:25 > 0:35:28but I think before you intervene medically, you need to get
0:35:28 > 0:35:31to a place where the parents and their child are sure that's
0:35:31 > 0:35:35what they want.
0:35:35 > 0:35:37I think we have to remember that gender is fluid.
0:35:37 > 0:35:39We don't always find ourselves in the same place
0:35:39 > 0:35:41throughout our lives.
0:35:41 > 0:35:44So at various points in our life we may choose to express ourselves
0:35:44 > 0:35:46as a different gender, and I think it's perfectly
0:35:46 > 0:35:48reasonable for people to do that.
0:35:48 > 0:35:51Andrew Bryson, what's your view?
0:35:55 > 0:35:56OK, Rod Liddle.
0:35:56 > 0:35:58I tend to agree as well.
0:35:58 > 0:35:59This is becoming a non-debate.
0:35:59 > 0:36:02Well, it's interesting that it is a non-debate.
0:36:02 > 0:36:04Because without question, the trend within social services
0:36:04 > 0:36:08and within our schools is to intervene very early on.
0:36:08 > 0:36:10And social workers have been brought in, parents have been told
0:36:10 > 0:36:14that they must see social workers.
0:36:14 > 0:36:17For example, this happened with a five or six-year-old boy
0:36:17 > 0:36:21who was spotted by his teacher, I can't remember where,
0:36:21 > 0:36:27and liked wearing a dress.
0:36:27 > 0:36:30And the parents were contacted and said, "Right, we have to go
0:36:30 > 0:36:33"and see a social worker.
0:36:33 > 0:36:35"This child has gender dysphoria, it's a problem,
0:36:35 > 0:36:39"he is identifying as a woman".
0:36:39 > 0:36:42This is ludicrous.
0:36:42 > 0:36:44And I think everyone on this panel knows it's ludicrous,
0:36:44 > 0:36:47so I would guess most of the audience does.
0:36:47 > 0:36:49But it is going ahead a little bit.
0:36:49 > 0:36:50Things are moving apace.
0:36:50 > 0:36:53And I think the Church of England's report was evidence that
0:36:53 > 0:36:56things are moving apace.
0:36:56 > 0:37:00I would let kids get on with it and not burden them with this,
0:37:00 > 0:37:03up to the age of, certainly up to the age of 16 and I would argue
0:37:03 > 0:37:0618, and certainly no surgery, because that is storing up enormous
0:37:06 > 0:37:09problems for people in the future who may well come to regret very,
0:37:09 > 0:37:12very deeply the fact that during puberty they went a bit
0:37:12 > 0:37:16weird, as they would see it.
0:37:16 > 0:37:21APPLAUSE
0:37:21 > 0:37:22Emily Thornberry.
0:37:22 > 0:37:28I very much fear that I've been trying to think of how to express
0:37:28 > 0:37:31what I think in a way that is better than Val expresses it, and I can't.
0:37:31 > 0:37:36But I do think that kids should be able to wear
0:37:36 > 0:37:39what they like and behave in whatever way they wish,
0:37:39 > 0:37:43in order to be able to grow up in whatever way they find
0:37:43 > 0:37:44and to find their own path.
0:37:44 > 0:37:46And I do remember, I was just thinking,
0:37:46 > 0:37:48I don't know if anybody saw
0:37:48 > 0:37:51the wonderful news reports of some boys who weren't allowed to wear
0:37:51 > 0:37:54skirts in the summer, and who ended up all turning up
0:37:54 > 0:37:56at school wearing kilts.
0:37:56 > 0:37:59They turned up, all of them, wearing kilts at this primary School,
0:37:59 > 0:38:03which I thought was a wonderful way of, you know, of rebelling,
0:38:03 > 0:38:05and good for them.
0:38:05 > 0:38:07But I think it's right.
0:38:07 > 0:38:11It's very important in this day and age not to try and constrain
0:38:11 > 0:38:14people and to allow kids just to grow up in whatever way
0:38:14 > 0:38:17they want, and to be able to experiment and to be able
0:38:17 > 0:38:22to find their own way.
0:38:22 > 0:38:24Rod Liddle, you were implying there was pressure from social
0:38:24 > 0:38:25services and teachers.
0:38:25 > 0:38:30But there is also, isn't there, pressure...
0:38:30 > 0:38:33I mean, the Tavistock clinic in London has a whole large number
0:38:33 > 0:38:36of these children who come, often brought not by the teacher,
0:38:36 > 0:38:40not the social worker, but by the parents.
0:38:40 > 0:38:44Yes, think they are mistaken as well.
0:38:44 > 0:38:46Though I would prefer the parents to be in charge,
0:38:46 > 0:38:49rather than the school or a social worker, nonetheless,
0:38:49 > 0:38:52I still think that the children should be left until they are 16-18,
0:38:52 > 0:38:54I would say probably 18.
0:38:54 > 0:38:57And if they then decide that they wish to realign their gender,
0:38:57 > 0:39:00do whatever they wish to do...
0:39:00 > 0:39:03When you say they should be left, if a 14-year-old girl says,
0:39:03 > 0:39:07"I now wish to identify as a boy and I want to change my name",
0:39:07 > 0:39:09are you saying nothing should be done about it?
0:39:09 > 0:39:11Nothing should be done about it.
0:39:11 > 0:39:13I don't see anything wrong with them doing that.
0:39:13 > 0:39:15You are saying they shouldn't be allowed to.
0:39:15 > 0:39:16That's silly.
0:39:16 > 0:39:17That's silly.
0:39:17 > 0:39:19Why is it silly?
0:39:19 > 0:39:23Let kids call themselves whatever they want, let them
0:39:23 > 0:39:26wear whatever they want, and if they identify as a boy,
0:39:26 > 0:39:27then they can identify as a boy.
0:39:27 > 0:39:29What's the problem?
0:39:29 > 0:39:31And what about a boy identifying as a girl?
0:39:31 > 0:39:32That's fine.
0:39:32 > 0:39:33You're happy with that?
0:39:33 > 0:39:34Yeah, I am.
0:39:34 > 0:39:35Really, I am.
0:39:35 > 0:39:37But I do agree about no final decisions being made.
0:39:37 > 0:39:40I'm one with the feminists on that one, I'm afraid.
0:39:40 > 0:39:42So you're running a school and you have a 14-year-old boy
0:39:42 > 0:39:45who says, "I want to identify as a girl", and the headteacher
0:39:45 > 0:39:48of that school would say, "No, you're a boy, you'll be called
0:39:48 > 0:39:49"Paul and that's it".
0:39:49 > 0:39:53If he is called Paul and he's a boy and he's got an XY chromosome,
0:39:53 > 0:39:54then he's a boy called Paul.
0:39:54 > 0:39:57So you would be ruthless on that until they're 18.
0:39:57 > 0:39:58APPLAUSE
0:39:58 > 0:39:59That's science.
0:39:59 > 0:40:00Absolutely.
0:40:00 > 0:40:03Until they are 18 you would say that's the rule?
0:40:03 > 0:40:04Yes, absolutely.
0:40:04 > 0:40:05The man at the back there.
0:40:05 > 0:40:07I think there's two points here.
0:40:07 > 0:40:10The first one is that there is a severe lack of leadership
0:40:10 > 0:40:12among our politicians today, especially when we are dealing
0:40:12 > 0:40:14with the most vulnerable in society, which is our children.
0:40:14 > 0:40:18Now, a boy is a boy, and a girl is a girl.
0:40:18 > 0:40:21And yet children do have issues when they are growing up.
0:40:21 > 0:40:23I grew up in Newcastle here.
0:40:23 > 0:40:26I grew up with a variety of friends who had different
0:40:26 > 0:40:31appetites, let's say.
0:40:31 > 0:40:33However, children need to be protected, not exposed.
0:40:33 > 0:40:36There's a difference between education and exposing children.
0:40:36 > 0:40:42And children need leadership.
0:40:42 > 0:40:44And it's very sad today, because the panel right here have
0:40:44 > 0:40:45got no common sense.
0:40:45 > 0:40:46Children need protection.
0:40:46 > 0:40:49And when you look at the whole subject of gender,
0:40:49 > 0:40:53its confusion, that's what it is.
0:40:53 > 0:40:56Children, when they are searching, they need direction.
0:40:56 > 0:40:58And unfortunately we are living in a generation where our leaders
0:40:58 > 0:41:01haven't got a clue.
0:41:01 > 0:41:05OK, the woman in the third row.
0:41:05 > 0:41:08I recently returned from Toronto on a visit, looking at LGBT health.
0:41:08 > 0:41:12And one of the panellists said about the first
0:41:12 > 0:41:17thing is to do no harm.
0:41:17 > 0:41:21There is a really huge statistics about young people who commit
0:41:21 > 0:41:26suicide because of not being allowed to be the gender
0:41:26 > 0:41:28that they define as.
0:41:28 > 0:41:32And so I think the issue is about giving people
0:41:32 > 0:41:34the opportunity to be the gender they want to be.
0:41:34 > 0:41:39And in a way that is respectful to them and non-discriminatory
0:41:39 > 0:41:44and that supports...
0:41:44 > 0:41:47And the age issue which Rod Liddle was talking about, 18,
0:41:47 > 0:41:48is not relevant to that?
0:41:48 > 0:41:51At 12, ten, you would argue the same?
0:41:51 > 0:41:54It should be proportionate, so six-year-olds
0:41:54 > 0:41:57shouldn't have surgery.
0:41:57 > 0:42:04But there are times when hormone blockers are entirely appropriate.
0:42:04 > 0:42:09We can stop people having to have physical changes happening,
0:42:09 > 0:42:15and that can be proportionate.
0:42:15 > 0:42:22And the woman in the second row.
0:42:22 > 0:42:25I just want to make the general point of taking on board everything
0:42:25 > 0:42:26about gender identification.
0:42:26 > 0:42:28I've got a great niece who absolutely is a boy.
0:42:28 > 0:42:31That's what she wants to be and that's how she is.
0:42:31 > 0:42:35And she's only seven, and her parents are great
0:42:35 > 0:42:39because they encourage her in this, they don't contradict her.
0:42:39 > 0:42:43But from a historical point of view, we seem to be concentrating not
0:42:43 > 0:42:46so much on the identity of the person but how they express
0:42:46 > 0:42:49it as a male or a female.
0:42:49 > 0:42:52And it's only really, really recently that men have
0:42:52 > 0:42:58dressed in a certain way and women have dressed in a certain way.
0:42:58 > 0:43:01Historically, in the past, little boys wore dresses until they
0:43:01 > 0:43:05were a certain age anyway.
0:43:05 > 0:43:10Men were the peacocks, men were the ones that wore the most
0:43:10 > 0:43:13extraordinary costumes and expressed themselves if they were wealthy.
0:43:13 > 0:43:16I'm not talking about the poor old working classes.
0:43:16 > 0:43:20But what I'm saying is that it's fluid, how we actually see
0:43:20 > 0:43:24or identify people's gender is not fixed in stone.
0:43:24 > 0:43:27And just listening to this, there is an element of ignorance
0:43:27 > 0:43:31as well, because that's fluid, and I think we are at a point
0:43:31 > 0:43:37where we can go back to freedom of expression in how people dress,
0:43:37 > 0:43:41no matter what their gender.
0:43:41 > 0:43:42APPLAUSE
0:43:42 > 0:43:45What do you say to the woman in the third row who talked
0:43:45 > 0:43:46about the Canadian experience?
0:43:46 > 0:43:49I think that's heading in the right direction but I'm not entirely
0:43:49 > 0:43:52convinced about intervention at those early stages.
0:43:52 > 0:43:57I think it's difficult.
0:43:57 > 0:44:00We shouldn't be taking irreversible steps.
0:44:00 > 0:44:02I think that's the key.
0:44:02 > 0:44:05We shouldn't take irreversible steps until people are of an age
0:44:05 > 0:44:08where they can make an adult, responsible decision,
0:44:08 > 0:44:12where we would let them make that decision about
0:44:12 > 0:44:12other medical matters.
0:44:12 > 0:44:18But if it's a reversible choice, I don't see the problem with that.
0:44:18 > 0:44:20Nor should we be dismissive.
0:44:20 > 0:44:23The gentleman at the back talks about lack of leadership.
0:44:23 > 0:44:27I promise you, sir, if you listen to the programme
0:44:27 > 0:44:31on Radio 4 of that child, where they are so close
0:44:31 > 0:44:35to committing suicide because of the way society
0:44:35 > 0:44:39effectively dismisses, as Rod was doing a minute ago,
0:44:39 > 0:44:42that it is either X or Y, it is not that simple, Rod.
0:44:42 > 0:44:43I'm sorry, forgive me...
0:44:43 > 0:44:44Let me finish.
0:44:44 > 0:44:46The science is that simple.
0:44:46 > 0:44:49I'm a scientist.
0:44:49 > 0:44:52Not a medical scientist.
0:44:52 > 0:44:56But all I would say to you is when you hear a family
0:44:56 > 0:44:59and their child being torn apart and that child is so close
0:44:59 > 0:45:02to suicide, I do not think it is right for any of us
0:45:02 > 0:45:05here who have not experienced that to be so dismissive
0:45:05 > 0:45:08about it and to demonstrate, oh, we know what is
0:45:08 > 0:45:10best, and that is it.
0:45:10 > 0:45:11That is wrong.
0:45:11 > 0:45:12OK.
0:45:12 > 0:45:13We will go one.
0:45:13 > 0:45:15We will go on.
0:45:15 > 0:45:17Let's take a question, I'm sorry to those of
0:45:17 > 0:45:18you who still have your hands up.
0:45:18 > 0:45:20We will go on to a question from...
0:45:20 > 0:45:23Let's have Joe Williams, please.
0:45:23 > 0:45:25Should the Chancellor take John McDonnell's advice
0:45:25 > 0:45:26and borrow billions more to end austerity?
0:45:26 > 0:45:27OK.
0:45:27 > 0:45:30The Chancellor has his budget next Wednesday.
0:45:30 > 0:45:32Question Time immediately follows it on the Thursday,
0:45:32 > 0:45:35so we will hear a bit more.
0:45:35 > 0:45:39Rod Liddle, should the Chancellor take John McDonnell's advice
0:45:39 > 0:45:41and borrow billions more to end austerity?
0:45:41 > 0:45:44It is an appalling thing, isn't it, to have to agree
0:45:44 > 0:45:45with John McDonnell?
0:45:45 > 0:45:46I never thought I would do that.
0:45:46 > 0:45:49I do not know about billions more, I certainly think
0:45:49 > 0:45:51that the government has managed to find money when it
0:45:51 > 0:45:52needed to find money.
0:45:52 > 0:45:58APPLAUSE
0:45:58 > 0:46:08Very happily, the government shook the magic
0:46:11 > 0:46:13the magic money tree and was able to find itself
0:46:13 > 0:46:15a bung to give to the DUP.
0:46:15 > 0:46:17So we know that there is some money there.
0:46:17 > 0:46:20What I would like to see the government doing and I don't
0:46:20 > 0:46:23think the government will do because it's not the kind
0:46:23 > 0:46:24of thing Conservatives governments do very much,
0:46:24 > 0:46:27is invest in industry, in regional infrastructure
0:46:27 > 0:46:29and in science research and development, all things that
0:46:29 > 0:46:32worried me, when we left the EU, we would be remiss about.
0:46:32 > 0:46:34I was genuinely worried that would be one of the things
0:46:34 > 0:46:38that we would not spend our money on.
0:46:38 > 0:46:41I think in a sense, McDonnell is right, I think we do need
0:46:41 > 0:46:44the purse strings loosened.
0:46:44 > 0:46:48One of the big things we need to do, we need somehow to raise the average
0:46:48 > 0:46:50wages that we have this country.
0:46:50 > 0:46:52The big problem at the moment isn't particularly unemployment,
0:46:52 > 0:46:55it's the fact people are being paid very low wages and therefore cannot
0:46:55 > 0:47:01afford to buy stuff.
0:47:01 > 0:47:03So both of those, yes, I think very important.
0:47:03 > 0:47:06Nadhim.
0:47:06 > 0:47:08When we took office the deficit was 156 billion.
0:47:08 > 0:47:12No, hold on a second.
0:47:12 > 0:47:14You are being asked whether you would take
0:47:14 > 0:47:15John McDonnell's advice.
0:47:15 > 0:47:17I am about to tell you.
0:47:17 > 0:47:20The deficit has been cut by two thirds, that is why we are able
0:47:20 > 0:47:25to have the opportunity to invest in infrastructure now.
0:47:25 > 0:47:28One thing we have done is to launch a 23 billion pounds productivity
0:47:28 > 0:47:30fund to get our productivity to where it needs to be.
0:47:30 > 0:47:33That is what I would like to see happen.
0:47:33 > 0:47:35We have been there before with Labour when they borrow
0:47:35 > 0:47:37and spend and crash the economy.
0:47:37 > 0:47:39If you are investing in infrastructure, I think
0:47:39 > 0:47:41that is a good thing.
0:47:41 > 0:47:44To crash the economy?
0:47:44 > 0:47:47Can you put that more clearly?
0:47:47 > 0:47:50We are investing in assets, we are investing in infrastructure,
0:47:50 > 0:47:52digital, transport.
0:47:52 > 0:47:54That is what you want to invest in.
0:47:54 > 0:47:57Housing.
0:47:57 > 0:48:00There is nothing decent or moral in crashing the economy.
0:48:00 > 0:48:03Venezuela has the second largest oil reserve in the world
0:48:03 > 0:48:06after Saudi Arabia.
0:48:06 > 0:48:08They followed Jeremy Corbyn and John McDonnell's model
0:48:08 > 0:48:09of economic management.
0:48:09 > 0:48:12They have crashed completely.
0:48:12 > 0:48:14If you are sick in Venezuela, you die, because there
0:48:14 > 0:48:15is no medicine for you.
0:48:15 > 0:48:19Let's not move to Venezuela.
0:48:19 > 0:48:22Let's talk about John McDonnell's advice over these last few days
0:48:22 > 0:48:23about this budget that is coming.
0:48:23 > 0:48:26I wouldn't take any advice from John McDonnell where he wants
0:48:26 > 0:48:28to borrow 500 billion and crash the economy again.
0:48:28 > 0:48:31I would say because we have cut the deficit by two thirds
0:48:31 > 0:48:33we are able to invest in infrastructure,
0:48:33 > 0:48:34in increasing productivity.
0:48:34 > 0:48:38And one other thing, the gender pay gap, if we can
0:48:38 > 0:48:42overcome the gender pay gap so women are paid the same as men,
0:48:42 > 0:48:44you would increase the GDP of this country four times
0:48:44 > 0:48:46what it is today to 8%.
0:48:46 > 0:48:49If we can do that that is fantastic.
0:48:49 > 0:48:51I would not take any lectures from John McDonnell about the economy.
0:48:51 > 0:48:56Emily Thornberry.
0:48:56 > 0:48:59It goes like this.
0:48:59 > 0:49:02We have had seven years of austerity and we were told by the Tories
0:49:02 > 0:49:06if we could tighten our belts for a few years, the economy
0:49:06 > 0:49:09would be better and we would have enough money to invest
0:49:09 > 0:49:10in public services.
0:49:10 > 0:49:13That just has not happened.
0:49:13 > 0:49:18At the moment our public services are on their knees and we are told
0:49:18 > 0:49:23we have to continue like this because somehow or other it will be
0:49:23 > 0:49:24will be fine in the future.
0:49:24 > 0:49:29Well, it is not.
0:49:29 > 0:49:31We need an entirely different way of approaching the economy.
0:49:31 > 0:49:34This government in the next five years is going to cut £76 billion
0:49:34 > 0:49:36in taxes to the richest and to corporations.
0:49:36 > 0:49:41So don't tell me about austerity.
0:49:41 > 0:49:48There is £1 billion to the DUP but never mind about that.
0:49:48 > 0:49:51How much have we lost from the corporation tax?
0:49:51 > 0:49:5228% down to 19%.
0:49:52 > 0:49:54We have brought more money to the Exchequer.
0:49:54 > 0:49:57If politicians focus on tax take, not tax rate, then we will deliver
0:49:57 > 0:50:02better public services.
0:50:02 > 0:50:05At a time of austerity they are cutting £76 billion
0:50:05 > 0:50:10from the taxes of the richest and what we would say
0:50:10 > 0:50:13is that we are the sixth richest country in the world.
0:50:13 > 0:50:15We have more people sleeping on the streets now
0:50:15 > 0:50:17than we have had for years.
0:50:17 > 0:50:19A quarter of our nurses need a second job.
0:50:19 > 0:50:23Many of them have to go to food banks.
0:50:23 > 0:50:26Half a million children last year went for three days'
0:50:26 > 0:50:27emergency food supplies.
0:50:27 > 0:50:28It cannot go on this way.
0:50:28 > 0:50:32We have to do something about it.
0:50:32 > 0:50:33Put numbers...
0:50:33 > 0:50:35We will.
0:50:35 > 0:50:37Put numbers to it, because the question was,
0:50:37 > 0:50:42John McDonnell asked for billions to be spent.
0:50:42 > 0:50:43How many?
0:50:43 > 0:50:45There are two things.
0:50:45 > 0:50:49One is day-to-day spending and at £76 billion, you could spend
0:50:49 > 0:50:52you could spend 4 billion, as the chief executive of the NHS
0:50:52 > 0:50:55of the NHS has said, in order to stop the 5
0:50:55 > 0:50:57million people on the waiting list next year.
0:50:57 > 0:50:58Spend 4 billion on that.
0:50:58 > 0:51:00You could spend another 4 billion on lifting
0:51:00 > 0:51:01the public services wage cap.
0:51:01 > 0:51:04That would be another good use of the money.
0:51:04 > 0:51:08And we still have an awful lot left of the £76 billion that the Tories
0:51:08 > 0:51:10are cutting in taxes, but when it comes to investing
0:51:10 > 0:51:15in infrastructure, yes we borrow.
0:51:15 > 0:51:17We have talked about £250 billion over a 10-year period to invest
0:51:17 > 0:51:21in things like Crossrail for the north.
0:51:21 > 0:51:25Superfast broadband for everyone, investing in infrastructure
0:51:25 > 0:51:28and getting the economy going, because the way we are going
0:51:28 > 0:51:31we are going downhill and there has to be an alternative vision
0:51:31 > 0:51:34and we have it.
0:51:34 > 0:51:44The man with a beard.
0:51:45 > 0:51:48I do not agree we should borrow more, but what they should do
0:51:48 > 0:51:50is legislate to close the loopholes on the tax as described
0:51:50 > 0:51:52in the Paradise Papers.
0:51:52 > 0:51:55And the person over there on the left.
0:51:55 > 0:52:02It would be nice if instead of concentrating investment
0:52:02 > 0:52:06in the south, in Crossrails, that we could get more in the north.
0:52:06 > 0:52:10APPLAUSE
0:52:10 > 0:52:11You were drowned out by the applause.
0:52:11 > 0:52:14You could get more what?
0:52:14 > 0:52:17Our Metro trains are 40 years old and they just do not work
0:52:17 > 0:52:19and there is nothing to replace them.
0:52:19 > 0:52:26The man on the far right, you, sir.
0:52:26 > 0:52:29My point is this, there is talk of we need to improve our economy
0:52:29 > 0:52:32and infrastructure.
0:52:32 > 0:52:35What I would like to know is when are we going to get
0:52:35 > 0:52:37infrastructure investment in our neck of the woods,
0:52:37 > 0:52:39because we are not getting it?
0:52:39 > 0:52:46APPLAUSE
0:52:46 > 0:52:50If you compare the spend per capita in London at over £5,000,
0:52:50 > 0:52:53in comparison with up here, where it is £223.
0:52:53 > 0:53:03Ridiculous.
0:53:04 > 0:53:07The price of austerity is not just counted in monetary terms.
0:53:07 > 0:53:10There was a report this week, we are getting 120,000 unnecessary
0:53:10 > 0:53:13deaths every year in this country as a direct result of the austerity.
0:53:13 > 0:53:16I think we have reached a tipping point, not just in this
0:53:16 > 0:53:18country but worldwide.
0:53:18 > 0:53:25We have reached a point where the wealth gap has become such
0:53:25 > 0:53:28that the 1% owns more than 50% of the world's wealth.
0:53:28 > 0:53:3070% of the working age population of the world,
0:53:30 > 0:53:32how much of the world's wealth do they own?
0:53:32 > 0:53:352.7%.
0:53:35 > 0:53:38We cannot afford the 1% any more.
0:53:38 > 0:53:42We cannot afford these people who are sucking
0:53:42 > 0:53:44the money out of our economy, sucking the life out
0:53:44 > 0:53:46of our countries.
0:53:46 > 0:53:48And do not pay taxes.
0:53:48 > 0:53:52And don't pay taxes.
0:53:52 > 0:53:53APPLAUSE
0:53:53 > 0:53:58There was a financial crash, in case some of you missed
0:53:58 > 0:54:01that, in 2008, and in spite of that, ultrahigh net worth individuals,
0:54:01 > 0:54:03the number of those has increased fivefold since 2000.
0:54:03 > 0:54:06You are not getting richer, are you?
0:54:06 > 0:54:09You do not feel like you're getting richer, but there is a lot
0:54:09 > 0:54:12of people out there, the 1%, who are getting more
0:54:12 > 0:54:18and more rich off the backs of ordinary people and we need
0:54:18 > 0:54:21to address that, reform the whole way we run the tax systems.
0:54:21 > 0:54:22Tim Farron.
0:54:22 > 0:54:25We have the budget on Thursday.
0:54:25 > 0:54:27Would the Liberal Democrats like to see John McDonnell's
0:54:27 > 0:54:32prescription adopted?
0:54:32 > 0:54:34We would like to see Vince Cable's prescription adopted.
0:54:34 > 0:54:36My view is simply this.
0:54:36 > 0:54:37What is wrong with the McDonnell one?
0:54:37 > 0:54:40Well, a stopped clock is right twice a day.
0:54:40 > 0:54:43My view is this is the moment, all right we have seen
0:54:43 > 0:54:46an interest rate rise, a narrow one, recently,
0:54:46 > 0:54:51nevertheless, we have historically low borrowing rates at the moment.
0:54:51 > 0:54:54This is the moment to invest £100 billion, borrowed,
0:54:54 > 0:54:55in serious projects that will massively create
0:54:55 > 0:54:58an infrastructure revolution in this country.
0:54:58 > 0:55:02I don't just say it because of the part of country I am from,
0:55:02 > 0:55:03but principally in the North, principally outside
0:55:03 > 0:55:05of the south-east.
0:55:05 > 0:55:09I am not against HS2, for example, but it is absolutely a Southerner's
0:55:09 > 0:55:11idea of what is good for the North.
0:55:11 > 0:55:13If only we could get to London a little bit
0:55:13 > 0:55:15quicker, then our lives will be fulfilled!
0:55:15 > 0:55:20APPLAUSE.
0:55:20 > 0:55:23The reality is, it will take me longer tonight to get home
0:55:23 > 0:55:26to South Cumbria than it would if I was going back down
0:55:26 > 0:55:29to London, and that is an outrage.
0:55:29 > 0:55:31East-west connectivity is absolutely crucial.
0:55:31 > 0:55:35The reality is that the elephant in the room, I know we addressed it,
0:55:35 > 0:55:38but even the government's figures, they say we are going to be
0:55:38 > 0:55:41£50 billion a year short on budget projections,
0:55:41 > 0:55:43if we leave the single market, which, by the way,
0:55:43 > 0:55:47John McDonnell voted for.
0:55:47 > 0:55:51That means we either have to sink into poverty and mediocrity
0:55:51 > 0:55:55or we fight our way out of it and the only way to do it is to have
0:55:55 > 0:55:58that Victorian level of ambition that says Britain can be the best,
0:55:58 > 0:56:05if we invest in housing, new garden cities, council housing,
0:56:05 > 0:56:06green energy, east-west connectivity, the best
0:56:06 > 0:56:07broadband in Europe.
0:56:07 > 0:56:09That way we stand a chance.
0:56:09 > 0:56:11How much of this do you expect next Thursday?
0:56:11 > 0:56:13Very little.
0:56:13 > 0:56:15I agree with Tim Farron.
0:56:15 > 0:56:17I agree the years of austerity have not worked.
0:56:17 > 0:56:20How the Tories said it would.
0:56:20 > 0:56:22I think they can least agree, if not to John McDonnell's
0:56:22 > 0:56:25however many billion, to at least some investment
0:56:25 > 0:56:30in infrastructure, because we really need it.
0:56:30 > 0:56:31And you on the right?
0:56:31 > 0:56:34I agree with Tim's point that coming from the north-east,
0:56:34 > 0:56:37we have lived through quite a bit of time where key industries have
0:56:37 > 0:56:38left the north-east.
0:56:38 > 0:56:39Shipbuilding, the chemical works, the steelworks,
0:56:39 > 0:56:42and in the next decade, there is a real possibility
0:56:42 > 0:56:43that car manufacturing might leave the region.
0:56:43 > 0:56:46I think more needs to be done to protect the key
0:56:46 > 0:56:47industries of the north-east.
0:56:47 > 0:56:49And you up there in the striped shirt.
0:56:49 > 0:56:52In terms of investment for the future, it is a shame
0:56:52 > 0:56:53education has not got a mention.
0:56:53 > 0:56:57Obviously, this week we have had thousands of head teachers marching
0:56:57 > 0:57:01on Parliament asking desperately for money for schools.
0:57:01 > 0:57:03We have schools are only staying afloat thanks to parents' donations
0:57:03 > 0:57:07and teachers buying resources for their classes.
0:57:07 > 0:57:08Before we end, anybody here against the idea
0:57:08 > 0:57:12of borrowing billions more?
0:57:12 > 0:57:15You have spoken already, sir, yes, you in the centre.
0:57:15 > 0:57:21A word from you and then we must stop.
0:57:21 > 0:57:23I would like to hear an example of a country where Corbyn
0:57:23 > 0:57:25and McDonnell's kind of economic ideas have worked.
0:57:25 > 0:57:27OK.
0:57:27 > 0:57:32You can name one country and then we have to stop.
0:57:32 > 0:57:35I would suggest that, actually, the Labour Party is a social
0:57:35 > 0:57:39democratic party pretty much from the centre of Europe
0:57:39 > 0:57:46and if you look at European economic policies throughout...
0:57:46 > 0:57:48Successful economies where they invest in their infrastructure,
0:57:48 > 0:57:49invest in safety nets.
0:57:49 > 0:57:51We asked for a name of the country.
0:57:51 > 0:57:52All right.
0:57:52 > 0:57:53Germany.
0:57:53 > 0:57:55Sweden.
0:57:55 > 0:57:57You should have spoken up before.
0:57:57 > 0:58:03We have to stop, I'm afraid, because our hour is up.
0:58:03 > 0:58:06Next Thursday, we have been talking about the budget and Question Time
0:58:06 > 0:58:07is coming from Colchester.
0:58:07 > 0:58:15We have Diane Abbott, the Shadow Home Secretary on the panel,
0:58:15 > 0:58:17the Business Secretary, Greg Clarke will be here,
0:58:17 > 0:58:18the Business Secretary, Greg Clarke will be here,
0:58:18 > 0:58:20Bernard Hogan Howe, the former police chief.
0:58:20 > 0:58:22Stuart Rose, the ex-head of M&S, now Ocado.
0:58:22 > 0:58:23And the author Dreda Say Mitchell.
0:58:23 > 0:58:26The week after that we are in Scarborough and we have Priti Patel,
0:58:26 > 0:58:28recently in the Cabinet, no longer.
0:58:28 > 0:58:35Chuka Umunna and Yanis Varoufakis on the panel.
0:58:35 > 0:58:39So we have two crack panels coming up, like this one we have had here.
0:58:39 > 0:58:41If you want to come to either of those programmes,
0:58:41 > 0:58:43that is Colchester followed by Scarborough.
0:58:43 > 0:58:44Ring the number on the screen.
0:58:44 > 0:58:48Or you can go to the website, which might be the easier way of doing it,
0:58:48 > 0:58:49and follow the instructions.
0:58:49 > 0:58:52On BBC 5 Live, Question Time Extra Time follows this,
0:58:52 > 0:58:55with a lot more discussion on what we have been talking about.
0:58:55 > 0:58:57But my thanks to our panel, to all of you who came
0:58:57 > 0:58:59to Newcastle to take part.
0:58:59 > 0:59:02Till next Thursday, good night.