0:00:05 > 0:00:07Tonight, we are in Colchester.
0:00:07 > 0:00:10And welcome to Question Time.
0:00:16 > 0:00:18And on our panel tonight, the Conservative Secretary
0:00:18 > 0:00:20of State for Business, and a member of Theresa May's
0:00:20 > 0:00:24inner Cabinet, Greg Clarke.
0:00:24 > 0:00:26Labour's Shadow Home Secretary, Diane Abbott, who this year
0:00:26 > 0:00:30celebrates 30 years as an MP.
0:00:30 > 0:00:34The former head of the Met, who resigned this year at the end
0:00:34 > 0:00:38of six years as Commissioner, Bernard Hogan-Howe.
0:00:38 > 0:00:41The crime writer and Brexit supporter Dreda Say Mitchell.
0:00:41 > 0:00:43And the former boss of Marks & Spencer, who chaired the campaign
0:00:43 > 0:00:53for Britain to stay in the EU, Stuart Rose.
0:01:03 > 0:01:05And, as ever, what is talked about here is always contentious
0:01:05 > 0:01:09and if you want to join in from home, a reminder our hashtag
0:01:09 > 0:01:11is BBCQT on Twitter or Facebook, or you can text 83981,
0:01:11 > 0:01:14push the red button and you will see what other people are saying.
0:01:14 > 0:01:22Our first question tonight is from Jo Richardson, please.
0:01:22 > 0:01:24Workers are worse off now than ten years ago,
0:01:24 > 0:01:26and the future looks equally gloomy, to quote, "Astonishing".
0:01:26 > 0:01:30What is the point of capitalism?
0:01:30 > 0:01:32What is the point of capitalism?
0:01:32 > 0:01:38APPLAUSE
0:01:38 > 0:01:41Stuart Rose.
0:01:41 > 0:01:43Well, that's a tough question to get asked first.
0:01:43 > 0:01:46Thank you very much, Jo, for that one.
0:01:46 > 0:01:49Listen, we are facing very tough times and I've no doubt we'll talk
0:01:49 > 0:01:52about the Budget at some point.
0:01:52 > 0:01:55But one of the things we really need to talk about in the context
0:01:55 > 0:01:58of where we are today is not the Budget but the economy.
0:01:58 > 0:02:00And I'm afraid all the signs are not good.
0:02:00 > 0:02:03It doesn't matter who you refer to, whether it's the IFS,
0:02:03 > 0:02:05whether it's the ONS, whether it's the Bank of England.
0:02:05 > 0:02:08All the indicators are that we have gone from being one of the top
0:02:08 > 0:02:10performers in the G7, one of the top performers
0:02:10 > 0:02:13in the world, one of the top performers in Europe in terms
0:02:13 > 0:02:16of growth, and we are now nearly at the bottom of the league.
0:02:16 > 0:02:19And that's happened in the last six or 12 months.
0:02:19 > 0:02:22And I don't want to open the debate straightaway about saying that's
0:02:22 > 0:02:23all caused by Brexit.
0:02:23 > 0:02:24Forget about Brexit.
0:02:24 > 0:02:26It's irrelevant, to the extent that we still have a problem.
0:02:26 > 0:02:28Our country is facing a very difficult time.
0:02:28 > 0:02:31I think what we need to do is face up to it.
0:02:31 > 0:02:34What we need to do is understand the reasons for it.
0:02:34 > 0:02:37We have to articulate to everybody, yourselves and to the country
0:02:37 > 0:02:39at wide, why those reasons are there, what we think
0:02:39 > 0:02:40we can do about it.
0:02:40 > 0:02:42We've got to join together to find solutions.
0:02:42 > 0:02:43It's not easy.
0:02:43 > 0:02:47It will take time, but I'm afraid the future is a little bit gloomy.
0:02:47 > 0:02:49I do say it's gloomier because of the situation
0:02:49 > 0:02:51we are finding ourselves in terms of politics today and Brexit.
0:02:51 > 0:02:56APPLAUSE
0:02:56 > 0:02:59Diane Abbott.
0:02:59 > 0:03:06Capitalism is a way of organising the economy.
0:03:06 > 0:03:10But the problems with capitalism arise first
0:03:10 > 0:03:14of all when it is unregulated, or not properly regulated.
0:03:14 > 0:03:17It was bankers who were not properly regulated that tipped us
0:03:17 > 0:03:21into the economic crisis which we are still struggling with.
0:03:21 > 0:03:28APPLAUSE
0:03:28 > 0:03:31I'm not against bankers, though, not really, but they should have
0:03:31 > 0:03:34been properly regulated.
0:03:34 > 0:03:40It's also an issue when you try and inject the market and capitalism
0:03:40 > 0:03:45into areas where it has no business.
0:03:45 > 0:03:47For instance, the health service.
0:03:47 > 0:03:55APPLAUSE
0:03:55 > 0:03:58I believe that the health service should be free at the point of use.
0:03:58 > 0:04:02So I can see that politics is a way of organising the world,
0:04:02 > 0:04:05but we can see both here and the United States
0:04:05 > 0:04:08and across the world what unregulated capitalism
0:04:08 > 0:04:13and injecting the market into the wrong situations can lead to.
0:04:13 > 0:04:20APPLAUSE
0:04:20 > 0:04:23Greg Clarke, this idea that workers are worse off than ten years ago,
0:04:23 > 0:04:26and we know the gloomy predictions in this Budget, one of the gloomiest
0:04:26 > 0:04:28Budgets any of us have ever heard.
0:04:28 > 0:04:30Does it mean capitalism isn't working, isn't delivering?
0:04:30 > 0:04:34First of all, if you look at capitalism, and for all the flaws,
0:04:34 > 0:04:36a bit like Winston Churchill said about democracy, look
0:04:36 > 0:04:39at the alternative.
0:04:39 > 0:04:41And if you really want to see the effects on people,
0:04:41 > 0:04:42look at socialist societies.
0:04:42 > 0:04:45Look at Venezuela...
0:04:45 > 0:04:50APPLAUSE
0:04:50 > 0:04:52Look at Cuba, look at Eastern Europe.
0:04:52 > 0:04:54The role of capitalism, the role of business,
0:04:54 > 0:04:57let's put it that way, is absolutely essential.
0:04:57 > 0:05:03It is by working, by paying taxes, by producing things that we all
0:05:03 > 0:05:06consume that we are employed, taxes are paid to support
0:05:06 > 0:05:09our public services.
0:05:09 > 0:05:11It's absolutely vital.
0:05:11 > 0:05:14Lots of us, outside of family and education, lots of us
0:05:14 > 0:05:17fulfil our potential throughout the world of work in companies.
0:05:17 > 0:05:21So let's not be against business and successful business,
0:05:21 > 0:05:26because I would say that every successful society has
0:05:26 > 0:05:31successful businesses.
0:05:31 > 0:05:34Of course they need to be prosperous and they need to respect
0:05:34 > 0:05:36the people's rights, but you can't have a successful society
0:05:36 > 0:05:40unless you have thriving businesses.
0:05:40 > 0:05:42The man up there.
0:05:42 > 0:05:50APPLAUSE
0:05:50 > 0:05:52Regarding Diane Abbott saying about the bankers,
0:05:52 > 0:05:54wasn't it Gordon Brown at the Mansion House
0:05:54 > 0:05:59speech said he wanted to encourage the risk takers?
0:05:59 > 0:06:01I have to tell you, I was in Parliament at that time
0:06:01 > 0:06:08and I didn't hear a single solitary Conservative MP saying they wanted
0:06:08 > 0:06:10tougher regulation on bankers.
0:06:10 > 0:06:13But you admit, Gordon Brown did say that.
0:06:13 > 0:06:19And just to refer to what Greg said, I took care to say that
0:06:19 > 0:06:20I wasn't against business.
0:06:20 > 0:06:23I was pointing at what happens when there isn't proper regulation,
0:06:23 > 0:06:27what happens when you have a society driven by greed.
0:06:27 > 0:06:29Because when a society's driven by greed, then
0:06:29 > 0:06:34it's actually the most vulnerable who always suffer.
0:06:34 > 0:06:36APPLAUSE
0:06:36 > 0:06:39You, sir, over there.
0:06:39 > 0:06:41I would say there's nothing wrong with capitalisation and capitalism.
0:06:41 > 0:06:44The problem all the socialist countries have felt,
0:06:44 > 0:06:48and capitalism has succeeded across the world, the problem
0:06:48 > 0:06:51is globalisation and the fact that the rules are not
0:06:51 > 0:06:55the same for everyone.
0:06:55 > 0:07:00The multinationals are capable of doing business in every country,
0:07:00 > 0:07:04most countries, apart from those that still have some kind
0:07:04 > 0:07:07of sovereignty, without paying tax.
0:07:07 > 0:07:12How can local and national companies compete with those multinationals?
0:07:12 > 0:07:16It is a downwards spiral which is going to bring,
0:07:16 > 0:07:20like we are seeing across the EU nations, increasing unemployment,
0:07:20 > 0:07:27increasing cost, increasing tax to try to gain back some money
0:07:27 > 0:07:32and cover the increasing cost.
0:07:32 > 0:07:37So the EU has been failing for the last 25 years.
0:07:37 > 0:07:40The EU is not the solution, it is the cause of the increasing
0:07:40 > 0:07:42unemployment and problems that we have.
0:07:42 > 0:07:44It is not capitalism.
0:07:44 > 0:07:47If everyone had the chance to make business and only pay 4% of tax,
0:07:47 > 0:07:51which is what most of the 100 multinationals are doing
0:07:51 > 0:07:55in the EU, I would bet that Europe would be
0:07:55 > 0:07:58a better place.
0:07:58 > 0:07:59APPLAUSE
0:07:59 > 0:08:05Bernard Hogan-Howe.
0:08:05 > 0:08:07I suppose it's in my nature, but I would probably challenge
0:08:07 > 0:08:11a little bit the underpinning in the assumption of the question,
0:08:11 > 0:08:14which is that we are in a horrible place and it's terrible and things
0:08:14 > 0:08:15will never get better.
0:08:15 > 0:08:18What we've got is two quarters of economic data,
0:08:18 > 0:08:19and that's important.
0:08:19 > 0:08:21And it might tell us there is a trend, but we don't
0:08:21 > 0:08:23know for certain yet.
0:08:23 > 0:08:25And of course, the judgments delivered by economists.
0:08:25 > 0:08:27There may be economists in the audience, I don't know.
0:08:27 > 0:08:29The gentleman who just spoke may well be an economist.
0:08:29 > 0:08:32But what we know with economists is they are not always very good
0:08:32 > 0:08:34at predicting the future.
0:08:34 > 0:08:36They can explain and analyse the past but they can't
0:08:36 > 0:08:37always predict the future.
0:08:37 > 0:08:40So I'm not entirely sure that we are in such a terrible place,
0:08:40 > 0:08:42but clearly there is a challenge for a while.
0:08:42 > 0:08:45The Chancellor of the Exchequer seems to think we are in
0:08:45 > 0:08:46a pretty terrible place.
0:08:46 > 0:08:49What he's saying is that the growth is not as high
0:08:49 > 0:08:49as they were expecting.
0:08:49 > 0:08:511.4%, or something.
0:08:51 > 0:08:56It is the first time for a while that it's been below 2%.
0:08:56 > 0:08:58So it's clearly not as good as everybody wants.
0:08:58 > 0:09:01But it's not zero, and it's not less than zero.
0:09:01 > 0:09:04So my point is that before we overreact, we ought to at least
0:09:04 > 0:09:05understand what we are facing.
0:09:05 > 0:09:07People are already living in such a desperate situation.
0:09:07 > 0:09:11You are talking as if, Bernard, things are not bad for people.
0:09:11 > 0:09:15Currently we've got 6 million people Jammed, just about managing.
0:09:15 > 0:09:19We've got two out of five households, actually,
0:09:19 > 0:09:23who can't afford to do the things that they want to do.
0:09:23 > 0:09:26We've got 42% of people who cannot go away annually
0:09:26 > 0:09:30one week on a holiday.
0:09:30 > 0:09:33And the thing I meant with two households out of five,
0:09:33 > 0:09:37they cannot save a tenner a month.
0:09:37 > 0:09:39If that is not bad...
0:09:39 > 0:09:41And what the government now is saying to people is probably
0:09:41 > 0:09:43things are going to get worse.
0:09:43 > 0:09:45And also on top of that, where is the investment
0:09:45 > 0:09:46in our young people?
0:09:46 > 0:09:49All right, don't make too many points.
0:09:49 > 0:09:50Let Bernard answer.
0:09:50 > 0:09:54My point is not...
0:09:54 > 0:09:56Because you just described my childhood, more or less.
0:09:56 > 0:09:59My point is not to dismiss that type of background.
0:09:59 > 0:10:01My point is that we can still have a positive
0:10:01 > 0:10:04attitude about the economy.
0:10:04 > 0:10:05That's my first point.
0:10:05 > 0:10:07The second point is, in terms of capitalism,
0:10:07 > 0:10:10I think generally it's the better of the alternatives.
0:10:10 > 0:10:12And I think although...
0:10:12 > 0:10:14And I agree entirely with what Diane said,
0:10:14 > 0:10:15it ought to be regulated capitalism.
0:10:15 > 0:10:18There needs to make sure that we have regulation.
0:10:18 > 0:10:20Don't you feel...
0:10:20 > 0:10:21Let him speak.
0:10:21 > 0:10:24The second point is that it ought to be caring as well.
0:10:24 > 0:10:28And I think it isn't always caring.
0:10:28 > 0:10:31I think the incentive for capitalism is about making profit,
0:10:31 > 0:10:32and that is a good thing.
0:10:32 > 0:10:34It generates wealth and that helps us.
0:10:34 > 0:10:36But I don't think it always cares about those
0:10:36 > 0:10:37people you just described.
0:10:37 > 0:10:40So I think that's where the state has to take a part.
0:10:40 > 0:10:41I'll come to you soon.
0:10:41 > 0:10:43Let's hear some more from members of the audience.
0:10:43 > 0:10:45The woman in the third row.
0:10:45 > 0:10:47Yes, I agree with Diane Abbott completely and I do think
0:10:47 > 0:10:48capitalism is failing us.
0:10:48 > 0:10:50I think it has to be regulated.
0:10:50 > 0:10:52I completely agree with what you said.
0:10:52 > 0:10:55To the Tory MP, I don't see why you have to make
0:10:55 > 0:10:57this comparison with, "Oh, socialist is a bad option.
0:10:57 > 0:11:00"What other alternative is there"?
0:11:00 > 0:11:03Well, I'm sorry, but socialism, for me, is a great alternative.
0:11:03 > 0:11:06I would like to see the Labour Party get in next time
0:11:06 > 0:11:09there's an election.
0:11:09 > 0:11:10OK, Greg Clarke.
0:11:10 > 0:11:14Let Mr Clarke reply.
0:11:14 > 0:11:17What I would say to you is that we've had a test
0:11:17 > 0:11:18of this in practice.
0:11:18 > 0:11:20I understand that the socialists were well motivated.
0:11:20 > 0:11:25They wanted to make their countries better.
0:11:25 > 0:11:29But time and again it has failed and people have been
0:11:29 > 0:11:30pushed into poverty.
0:11:30 > 0:11:33Where has it failed?
0:11:33 > 0:11:34Can I turn to something...
0:11:34 > 0:11:35Let him finish.
0:11:35 > 0:11:39Diane made a point.
0:11:39 > 0:11:42She said in response to a member of the audience that no Conservative
0:11:42 > 0:11:44MP called out Gordon Brown when this deregulation
0:11:44 > 0:11:46of the City was happening.
0:11:46 > 0:11:49That is not true.
0:11:49 > 0:11:52I'll tell you one Conservative MP, Peter Lilley, who was
0:11:52 > 0:11:54the Conservative Shadow Chancellor.
0:11:54 > 0:11:57And at that moment, when the Bank of England,
0:11:57 > 0:12:01that had always been a very dependable, responsible regulator
0:12:01 > 0:12:04of financial services, was being moved away,
0:12:04 > 0:12:08what Peter Lilley said in the House of Commons was that this
0:12:08 > 0:12:11was the government taking its eye off the ball and spivs and crooks
0:12:11 > 0:12:14would have a field day, and that is exactly what happened
0:12:14 > 0:12:16and that is what he predicted and opposed.
0:12:16 > 0:12:18That's some time back.
0:12:18 > 0:12:21APPLAUSE
0:12:21 > 0:12:25Maybe we should come back to the present and to yesterday's
0:12:25 > 0:12:28Budget and the prediction of flat growth and no change in people's
0:12:28 > 0:12:31take-home pay for a decade or more.
0:12:31 > 0:12:34Stuart Rose, you were trying to get in.
0:12:34 > 0:12:35I just want to get...
0:12:35 > 0:12:36What's your name?
0:12:36 > 0:12:37Jackie.
0:12:37 > 0:12:41I just want to get back to the point that you made, if I may say so,
0:12:41 > 0:12:44because I'd like to be clear in my own mind in this audience
0:12:44 > 0:12:47about whether we would all agree that the creation of wealth
0:12:47 > 0:12:49for all of us is a good thing.
0:12:49 > 0:12:51Because if we don't have wealth and money to spend
0:12:51 > 0:12:53we cannot build hospitals, we cannot build roads,
0:12:53 > 0:12:55we cannot build universities, we cannot educate our children,
0:12:55 > 0:12:58we cannot even spend the money that some parties might choose
0:12:58 > 0:12:59us to want to spend.
0:12:59 > 0:13:01So is the creation of wealth a good thing?
0:13:01 > 0:13:03I think most of us would say yes.
0:13:03 > 0:13:04Yes, creation of wealth.
0:13:04 > 0:13:07But what I was trying to say was that the Tory MP
0:13:07 > 0:13:10was saying that businesses, you know, we all need businesses.
0:13:10 > 0:13:12Yes, we need creation of wealth, we need businesses.
0:13:12 > 0:13:14Socialism doesn't say we don't, does it?
0:13:14 > 0:13:16No, my point would be that I agree with you,
0:13:16 > 0:13:18creation of wealth is a good thing.
0:13:18 > 0:13:21I've spent all my life in business and I have been engaged
0:13:21 > 0:13:23in the creation of wealth with people,
0:13:23 > 0:13:25in my most recent full-time job with 100,000 people who depended
0:13:25 > 0:13:29on us to make sure that we create the right amount of money
0:13:29 > 0:13:31to pay them the wages, to pay for the investment
0:13:31 > 0:13:34in our business, to pay our taxes and to pay for the hospitals,
0:13:34 > 0:13:35schools and whatever else.
0:13:35 > 0:13:37I'm sorry, but it's got to trickle down as well.
0:13:37 > 0:13:41The lowest of the low are getting paid nothing while the top ones
0:13:41 > 0:13:42are getting extraordinary, ridiculous amounts of money.
0:13:42 > 0:13:44We are all suffering austerity.
0:13:44 > 0:13:51Jackie, I think we are going to be in violent agreement.
0:13:51 > 0:13:53I agree with you, in the sense that it's
0:13:53 > 0:13:54about the distribution of wealth.
0:13:54 > 0:13:57That's what we should have a conversation about.
0:13:57 > 0:14:00The man with the spectacles on in the second row from the back.
0:14:00 > 0:14:02For me, here is the difficulty.
0:14:02 > 0:14:04We've got the socialists arguing with the capitalists,
0:14:04 > 0:14:06saying it's one or the other, when the reality is what is
0:14:06 > 0:14:08needed is a third way.
0:14:08 > 0:14:10What we really need is to encourage entrepreneurs, to encourage
0:14:10 > 0:14:13the creation of wealth, but with that we need
0:14:13 > 0:14:19to also encourage people to be compassionate,
0:14:19 > 0:14:24people to look after the poor, people to look after our relatives
0:14:24 > 0:14:27who are in old people's homes that aren't fit for purpose any more.
0:14:27 > 0:14:32We need a compassionate economic system that will work for everyone.
0:14:32 > 0:14:38To pick up Jo Richardson's question, do you think
0:14:38 > 0:14:40that the future looks gloomy?
0:14:40 > 0:14:42Me?
0:14:42 > 0:14:43Yes.
0:14:43 > 0:14:48No, I'm a glass is half full kind of person, to be honest.
0:14:48 > 0:14:51I think there are organisations, there's the voluntary sector
0:14:51 > 0:14:58who are doing incredible work.
0:14:58 > 0:15:00We talked this evening, earlier, about food banks and suchlike.
0:15:00 > 0:15:03There are people like that who are working really hard.
0:15:03 > 0:15:06It's just a shame they are needed.
0:15:06 > 0:15:08I do think we need to look after the more vulnerable
0:15:08 > 0:15:12members of society more than we currently do.
0:15:12 > 0:15:15The lady on the right. Yes.
0:15:15 > 0:15:18I'm actually an economist by trade.
0:15:18 > 0:15:23There are economists in the audience!
0:15:23 > 0:15:26I think what is always important is economic growth, but
0:15:26 > 0:15:26inclusive economic growth.
0:15:26 > 0:15:30Even here in Essex we have these coastal areas
0:15:30 > 0:15:35that are really deprived, and it is sharing that wealth.
0:15:35 > 0:15:38There is a lot of focus in London rather than save
0:15:38 > 0:15:39maybe in the north.
0:15:39 > 0:15:42And I know there is a bit in the Budget about moving
0:15:42 > 0:15:43towards that.
0:15:43 > 0:15:45And I think it's really, really important about
0:15:45 > 0:15:46spreading the wealth, not just between generations but
0:15:46 > 0:15:47across regions.
0:15:47 > 0:15:50APPLAUSE.
0:15:50 > 0:15:52What is the difference in growth in different regions of Britain?
0:15:52 > 0:15:55Is the North West, for instance, or the
0:15:55 > 0:15:57Northeast doing better than the South in terms of actual
0:15:57 > 0:16:02growth, not in total prosperity?
0:16:02 > 0:16:04Well actually, the fastest-growing part
0:16:04 > 0:16:06of the country now is the north-west.
0:16:06 > 0:16:09It used to be the case.
0:16:09 > 0:16:11That is the gap has closed.
0:16:11 > 0:16:13But there is further to go, as I think
0:16:13 > 0:16:14everyone knows.
0:16:14 > 0:16:16London and the south-east are still ahead in terms
0:16:16 > 0:16:19of productivity. And that is the big challenge.
0:16:19 > 0:16:23Those people that have said that actually it's not either
0:16:23 > 0:16:27or, we do have a role in making sure that the prosperity that is enjoyed
0:16:27 > 0:16:33by people who are earning well, companies that are doing well, is
0:16:33 > 0:16:38spread across the whole country.
0:16:38 > 0:16:39And the challenge that we have is this
0:16:39 > 0:16:43productivity challenge that was laid out in the Budget.
0:16:43 > 0:16:48Can you use sort of ordinary English?
0:16:48 > 0:16:50I mean, the productivity challenge is hardly
0:16:50 > 0:16:53going to get everybody fired up, is it?
0:16:53 > 0:16:58What it is is this, it takes people in Germany four days to
0:16:58 > 0:17:04produce what people in the UK take five days to produce.
0:17:04 > 0:17:07And that means that they can pay themselves better.
0:17:07 > 0:17:09Whose fault is this?
0:17:09 > 0:17:11This is a long-standing challenge of the
0:17:11 > 0:17:12British economy.
0:17:12 > 0:17:17And it has a number of different causes.
0:17:17 > 0:17:20And what we need to do, and this is not a party
0:17:20 > 0:17:22political point, because it is something that embraces the trade
0:17:22 > 0:17:26unions, it embraces the trade unions, leaders of councils,
0:17:26 > 0:17:27universities and everyone else.
0:17:27 > 0:17:29It's looking at what you need to do to
0:17:29 > 0:17:30improve things.
0:17:30 > 0:17:34You need to improve training and education.
0:17:34 > 0:17:36You need to improve our level of scientific
0:17:36 > 0:17:39research and applying that in practice.
0:17:39 > 0:17:41You need to have better infrastructure.
0:17:41 > 0:17:42Again, this is a speech.
0:17:42 > 0:17:43This is a speech.
0:17:43 > 0:17:45All right.
0:17:45 > 0:17:47Dreda, I'll come to you.
0:17:47 > 0:17:50I mean, I just listen to this - you see, my whole background
0:17:50 > 0:17:51is sort of grassroots.
0:17:51 > 0:17:54I'm not a politician.
0:17:54 > 0:17:58And what I hear from people day in, day out is big
0:17:58 > 0:18:00companies, the people at the top get all the money,
0:18:00 > 0:18:03they don't get a lot of money, they are seen as cheap
0:18:03 > 0:18:04labour.
0:18:04 > 0:18:07We live in a hire, fire type of economy.
0:18:07 > 0:18:11Somehow along we've got to start taking care of our workers.
0:18:11 > 0:18:14Because the way we are talking about productivity, it was almost
0:18:14 > 0:18:16as if the workers are the problem.
0:18:16 > 0:18:18The workers are not working quickly enough.
0:18:18 > 0:18:24That is what I picked up from it.
0:18:24 > 0:18:27So we've got to start thinking about the sort of society we want
0:18:27 > 0:18:28to be.
0:18:28 > 0:18:30I don't use words like capitalism and socialism.
0:18:30 > 0:18:33I think about what is the type of society I
0:18:33 > 0:18:35want the next generation to be living in?
0:18:35 > 0:18:38I want them to be able to think when they go to work there
0:18:38 > 0:18:41will be in a caring environment, they will be looked after, they will
0:18:41 > 0:18:42get a decent wage.
0:18:42 > 0:18:44We talked about the society that we are in.
0:18:44 > 0:18:47If you think about the public sector, and I
0:18:47 > 0:18:50think about my days as a teacher, it is full of people
0:18:50 > 0:18:52who were serving the community.
0:18:52 > 0:18:55Why is it they are not being paid properly?
0:18:55 > 0:19:01Why is it their money is being stopped?
0:19:01 > 0:19:04If we are so caring we've got to look after the people
0:19:04 > 0:19:06who look after us.
0:19:06 > 0:19:10That is a big job that the government has to do and it was one
0:19:10 > 0:19:13of the things in the Budget that really, really I'm
0:19:13 > 0:19:14disappointed and very upset about.
0:19:14 > 0:19:16OK.
0:19:16 > 0:19:18Let's go back to some members of our audience.
0:19:18 > 0:19:21The woman in the third row in the centre
0:19:21 > 0:19:25there, yes?
0:19:25 > 0:19:27Surely the prime job of a politician
0:19:27 > 0:19:30is to serve the community, the problem with our society is not
0:19:30 > 0:19:32capitalism or socialism, it's that our politicians are not serving
0:19:32 > 0:19:34their communities.
0:19:34 > 0:19:35In what way?
0:19:35 > 0:19:36They are not listening to the community,
0:19:36 > 0:19:38they are not engaging with the community.
0:19:38 > 0:19:40The community are having politics having done to them rather
0:19:40 > 0:19:42than being engaged in the process.
0:19:42 > 0:19:46APPLAUSE.
0:19:46 > 0:19:47Diane?
0:19:47 > 0:19:50I wanted to respond very quickly.
0:19:50 > 0:19:51Can you respond to her first?
0:19:51 > 0:19:57Well, I do, I do listen to my community.
0:19:57 > 0:20:01And even when it got me into trouble with my leadership,
0:20:01 > 0:20:05like when I listened to my community on the Iraq war, I did what my
0:20:05 > 0:20:06community wanted.
0:20:06 > 0:20:12What about all the politicians, for example, who sat
0:20:12 > 0:20:14in a Remain constituency but voted to leave, or vice versa?
0:20:14 > 0:20:16Oh well, I mean, the referendum was a thought
0:20:16 > 0:20:26to leave.
0:20:26 > 0:20:27-- a vote.
0:20:27 > 0:20:30And I think there is a democratic issue about taking the
0:20:30 > 0:20:31referendum vote seriously.
0:20:31 > 0:20:33What type of Brexit we have is another matter.
0:20:33 > 0:20:36It is my view the Tories are mismanaging negotiations from top to
0:20:36 > 0:20:37bottom.
0:20:37 > 0:20:40But just to quickly respond to Greg, he said that Peter Lilley
0:20:40 > 0:20:45voted not to make the Bank of England independent.
0:20:45 > 0:20:47I'm sorry, Peter Lilley, how many years back
0:20:47 > 0:20:50are we talking about?!
0:20:50 > 0:20:51We are here in 2017.
0:20:51 > 0:20:53When did Peter Lilley leave the House of Commons?
0:20:53 > 0:20:54I made the point.
0:20:54 > 0:20:56You made the point, didn't you?
0:20:56 > 0:20:59Let's leave Peter Lilley to one side.
0:20:59 > 0:21:02But there is a serious point.
0:21:02 > 0:21:06Greg's main argument was to offer this completely false dichotomy
0:21:06 > 0:21:09between, you know, Trump's America on the one hand and Cuba on the
0:21:09 > 0:21:10other hand.
0:21:10 > 0:21:12There are other models of society.
0:21:12 > 0:21:13Look at the Scandinavian countries.
0:21:13 > 0:21:17They have far better public health.
0:21:17 > 0:21:21Much more equal, much better health service.
0:21:21 > 0:21:23Don't talk about extremes.
0:21:23 > 0:21:27What we want is a fair, a more equal and a genuinely
0:21:27 > 0:21:28social democratic society.
0:21:28 > 0:21:34APPLAUSE.
0:21:34 > 0:21:37I just want to pick up the German comparison, because it is an
0:21:37 > 0:21:38interesting point.
0:21:38 > 0:21:40Many of the people who can afford to will buy
0:21:40 > 0:21:42German products.
0:21:42 > 0:21:44And I think one of the things the government has
0:21:44 > 0:21:47responsibility to do, which I didn't see any Budget,
0:21:47 > 0:21:49because it was one of the things.
0:21:49 > 0:21:52It's not how much tax was reduced, I was looking for a
0:21:52 > 0:21:54vision, or something that we can all start to think about.
0:21:54 > 0:21:57So if one of the things that we need to do
0:21:57 > 0:21:59is to embed quality in the things we do,
0:21:59 > 0:22:01Then you have to do something about that.
0:22:01 > 0:22:04You have to set up systems, you have to look at research and
0:22:04 > 0:22:05development.
0:22:05 > 0:22:07So the investment goes into the good ideas.
0:22:07 > 0:22:09We have had great ideas in this country, but we
0:22:09 > 0:22:12never seem to make it often to actually manufacture anything.
0:22:12 > 0:22:14Education, clearly a vital part of making sure that things are
0:22:14 > 0:22:15developed.
0:22:15 > 0:22:18The government talked about, during the election,
0:22:18 > 0:22:19involving workers on the boards.
0:22:19 > 0:22:20That hasn't happened.
0:22:20 > 0:22:22It does happen in Germany.
0:22:22 > 0:22:25My point is, I'm not saying the German economy is the best, it's
0:22:25 > 0:22:26a pretty strong one.
0:22:26 > 0:22:28Some of the things they do, I think, government
0:22:28 > 0:22:30does have a responsibility at a strategic level
0:22:30 > 0:22:31to set that context.
0:22:31 > 0:22:33I don't think we see it often enough.
0:22:33 > 0:22:35We see what can be regarded as gimmicks, the odd idea,
0:22:35 > 0:22:36attractive for a bit.
0:22:36 > 0:22:39It doesn't pay you back for five years and that's
0:22:39 > 0:22:41the sort of thing I think we need to see.
0:22:41 > 0:22:43No, no, plenty more time to talk.
0:22:43 > 0:22:45I think we'll move onto another aspect of the Budget.
0:22:45 > 0:22:47We've got a lot of questions.
0:22:47 > 0:22:48I can't get through them all.
0:22:48 > 0:22:51I can't get to them all, but one of the key ones is
0:22:51 > 0:22:52the next one.
0:22:52 > 0:22:55Just before we come to that though, I should tell viewers
0:22:55 > 0:22:59where we are going to be next week, Scarborough.
0:22:59 > 0:23:03And Swansea the week after that.
0:23:03 > 0:23:05So if you're watching in Scarborough or Swansea
0:23:05 > 0:23:09and want to come to Question Time, the details are on the screen of how
0:23:09 > 0:23:10to get there.
0:23:10 > 0:23:11I'll give those at the end.
0:23:11 > 0:23:14This other aspect of it which was very central to a lot of
0:23:14 > 0:23:17people's concerns about the economy at the moment, from John Acker,
0:23:17 > 0:23:18please, John Acker.
0:23:18 > 0:23:26Can the Budget fix the broken housing market?
0:23:26 > 0:23:27Dianne Abbott?
0:23:27 > 0:23:28No.
0:23:28 > 0:23:34The housing crisis we face has more than
0:23:34 > 0:23:35one dimension.
0:23:35 > 0:23:36There are homeless people.
0:23:36 > 0:23:39And actually, it's all tied up with what is happening in private
0:23:39 > 0:23:40housing.
0:23:40 > 0:23:44There are people paying astronomical rents nowadays.
0:23:44 > 0:23:4760% of their income on rental.
0:23:47 > 0:23:49There are people that want to own their own
0:23:49 > 0:23:53homes, and there are people that may have a home but are very worried
0:23:53 > 0:23:55about their children.
0:23:55 > 0:23:58So no, this Budget does not deal with all of
0:23:58 > 0:24:00those issues.
0:24:00 > 0:24:02What would you have wanted it to do?
0:24:02 > 0:24:03I would have wanted it...
0:24:03 > 0:24:06If it had been your Budget, or McDonnell's Budget?
0:24:06 > 0:24:08If it had in my Budget we would have
0:24:08 > 0:24:10brought in some measure of rent control.
0:24:10 > 0:24:16APPLAUSE.
0:24:19 > 0:24:22And if it had been my Budget, we would have been borrowing
0:24:22 > 0:24:25to invest in council housing.
0:24:25 > 0:24:30APPLAUSE.
0:24:30 > 0:24:33Now the Tories seem to think there's some sort of stigma about council
0:24:33 > 0:24:35housing.
0:24:35 > 0:24:38But actually, good quality, well-managed council housing is part
0:24:38 > 0:24:42of the whole housing mix.
0:24:42 > 0:24:47If you just rely on subsidies to builders so
0:24:47 > 0:24:50people can buy overpriced houses, you're never going to meet the
0:24:50 > 0:24:52real needs.
0:24:52 > 0:24:54Can we just get the borrowing thing clarified?
0:24:54 > 0:24:57Sorry, you would borrow how much and what would you
0:24:57 > 0:25:00do with it?
0:25:00 > 0:25:03Give it to the councils or allow councils to borrow?
0:25:03 > 0:25:06What would the plan be?
0:25:06 > 0:25:09As you probably know, the Bank of England base rate
0:25:09 > 0:25:10is now half a percent.
0:25:10 > 0:25:12When we get into government, as I hope we
0:25:12 > 0:25:15do, maybe next year, maybe in 2022, we'll...
0:25:15 > 0:25:19Exactly!
0:25:19 > 0:25:22The estimate is that we will be borrowing at around 2%.
0:25:22 > 0:25:24If you borrow to invest, which is what we say
0:25:24 > 0:25:30we are going to do, whether it's investing in
0:25:30 > 0:25:33infrastructure or whether it's investing in housing, you get a
0:25:33 > 0:25:34return on that investment.
0:25:34 > 0:25:37If you talk to merchant banks about what
0:25:37 > 0:25:42private sector investments get out of interested
0:25:42 > 0:25:50for instance, you're looking at 8%, 10%.
0:25:50 > 0:25:53So we are very clear we would borrow to invest in things
0:25:53 > 0:25:53like housing infrastructure.
0:25:53 > 0:25:55And even Tories understand that.
0:25:55 > 0:25:56His colleague, Sajid Javid, was talking
0:25:56 > 0:25:58about borrowing 50 billion to invest in housing,
0:25:58 > 0:26:00until he was slapped down by Philip Hammond.
0:26:00 > 0:26:09So yes we would borrow, but we would get in
0:26:09 > 0:26:11a return on that money because we would be
0:26:11 > 0:26:14investing in things that
0:26:14 > 0:26:15the community needs.
0:26:15 > 0:26:17And why didn't you do that?
0:26:17 > 0:26:19The truth is that for many generations
0:26:19 > 0:26:21of government of different colours, we have not been building the number
0:26:21 > 0:26:23of homes that we needed.
0:26:23 > 0:26:24That has to be faced up to.
0:26:24 > 0:26:25That is true.
0:26:25 > 0:26:27Why didn't you do what she suggested?
0:26:27 > 0:26:28So...
0:26:28 > 0:26:29What Sajid Javid suggested.
0:26:29 > 0:26:30Diane suggested...
0:26:30 > 0:26:32Sajid Javid suggested it.
0:26:32 > 0:26:34Well, Diane suggested that we should have, allow councils
0:26:34 > 0:26:37to build council houses.
0:26:37 > 0:26:40In the Budget that is precisely what they have been not
0:26:40 > 0:26:43just allowed, but encouraged to do.
0:26:43 > 0:26:46There is £1 billion that is going to be available
0:26:46 > 0:26:48to councils for this.
0:26:48 > 0:26:51And so far from having any objection to councils building houses, I think
0:26:51 > 0:26:52it is a fantastic thing.
0:26:52 > 0:26:53In fact, there are more...
0:26:53 > 0:26:56You're not freeing councils to borrow as much as they would want?
0:26:56 > 0:26:58No, it is part of the national debt.
0:26:58 > 0:26:59That is the point she's making.
0:26:59 > 0:27:01With low interest rates you can afford to
0:27:01 > 0:27:02borrow a lot more.
0:27:02 > 0:27:04Well, they are being able to borrow.
0:27:04 > 0:27:05They can't borrow what they want.
0:27:05 > 0:27:07They can borrow £1 billion more.
0:27:07 > 0:27:09It's not very much, is it, for housing?
0:27:09 > 0:27:11There are more houses that have been built
0:27:11 > 0:27:14in the last seven years than under the entire period of Diane's
0:27:14 > 0:27:15appeared in government.
0:27:15 > 0:27:16That is tit-for-tat stuff.
0:27:16 > 0:27:17The thing is, sorry, let me finish.
0:27:17 > 0:27:19There's a big problem about housing.
0:27:19 > 0:27:20You say there is.
0:27:20 > 0:27:22All the speeches from the Tory conference have said it.
0:27:22 > 0:27:32When it comes to it, what are we offered,
0:27:32 > 0:27:33300,000 new houses by 2022 or something?
0:27:33 > 0:27:34It's nothing.
0:27:34 > 0:27:36It's nothing to grab the imagination are
0:27:36 > 0:27:37confident people looking for houses.
0:27:37 > 0:27:39APPLAUSE.
0:27:39 > 0:27:44300,000 homes a year was the level of house building that we
0:27:44 > 0:27:47achieved when Harold Macmillan, after the war, was prime minister.
0:27:47 > 0:27:50That is what we need to do to make a big difference.
0:27:50 > 0:27:52We were a much smaller country in those days.
0:27:52 > 0:27:54300,000 a year is a lot.
0:27:54 > 0:27:57But actually, we are making big progress
0:27:57 > 0:28:00compared to where we were after the financial crisis.
0:28:00 > 0:28:04The figures just for, just imagine the last few
0:28:04 > 0:28:09weeks, in the last year we build, we added 217,000, that is getting up
0:28:09 > 0:28:12to the level we need to, but we have got further to go.
0:28:12 > 0:28:18That is why, in very difficult circumstances,
0:28:18 > 0:28:20the money is not awash, as it has been clear
0:28:20 > 0:28:21from our discussion.
0:28:21 > 0:28:23That's not what Diane said.
0:28:23 > 0:28:24She says money is awash.
0:28:24 > 0:28:28That £15 billion has been found to invest
0:28:28 > 0:28:31in housing is very important. But let me pick up Diane's point.
0:28:31 > 0:28:33This is the problem.
0:28:33 > 0:28:35Tories talk about building houses but
0:28:35 > 0:28:37they are not houses that people with average salaries can afford.
0:28:37 > 0:28:40APPLAUSE.
0:28:40 > 0:28:41No we can't.
0:28:41 > 0:28:44All right.
0:28:44 > 0:28:47We have to avoid this becoming the House of Commons.
0:28:47 > 0:28:48We have three other guests.
0:28:48 > 0:28:51The removal of stamp duty on house purchases
0:28:51 > 0:28:55for first-time buyers on
0:28:55 > 0:28:58£300,000 more or less valued houses, is a step in the right direction.
0:28:58 > 0:29:01But I believe the green belt should be built on and it should be built
0:29:01 > 0:29:02on soon.
0:29:02 > 0:29:06I think there is about 92% of our land mass just not built on
0:29:06 > 0:29:07at all.
0:29:07 > 0:29:09Instead of talking about council houses all the time, we need
0:29:09 > 0:29:12to build on land we already have that is not used.
0:29:12 > 0:29:14Like new garden cities like Milton Keynes, in the
0:29:14 > 0:29:1870s, we should have more projects like that.
0:29:18 > 0:29:20It's slowed down because we won't build on places you think
0:29:20 > 0:29:21we should?
0:29:21 > 0:29:22Yeah.
0:29:22 > 0:29:23We should definitely like...
0:29:23 > 0:29:25Milton Keynes was like the 60s or the 70s.
0:29:25 > 0:29:27Stuart Rose, what do you think?
0:29:27 > 0:29:30Well, I think there is plenty of brown space available
0:29:30 > 0:29:32to build on as well, I think we know that.
0:29:32 > 0:29:33APPLAUSE
0:29:33 > 0:29:36But the real issue is, nobody is arguing, we need
0:29:36 > 0:29:37to build more houses.
0:29:37 > 0:29:39And what I say is, frankly, as somebody who is from business,
0:29:39 > 0:29:42is I've heard politicians, and we heard from Greg,
0:29:42 > 0:29:45from both parties for 50 years telling us they are going to build
0:29:45 > 0:29:46200, 300, 200, 300.
0:29:46 > 0:29:47They never meet the targets.
0:29:47 > 0:29:48They never put enough money in.
0:29:48 > 0:29:51The real reason is there's not enough joint infrastructure,
0:29:51 > 0:29:53incentives in place for councils to build social housing,
0:29:53 > 0:29:56or for builders to build affordable housing, or for that to be done
0:29:56 > 0:29:58in a way which is seamless.
0:29:58 > 0:30:00And I'm afraid, also, which goes back to the skills
0:30:00 > 0:30:02conversation we had, we actually don't have enough
0:30:02 > 0:30:04trained people at the moment.
0:30:04 > 0:30:06One of the reasons we can't build houses is we don't
0:30:06 > 0:30:07have enough builders.
0:30:07 > 0:30:11And we need to train builders.
0:30:11 > 0:30:14What about the freedom of councils to build houses in their own areas?
0:30:14 > 0:30:17And also for them to borrow enough money to be able to do so.
0:30:17 > 0:30:19You think they should be allowed to?
0:30:19 > 0:30:21Yes.
0:30:21 > 0:30:23But he says they can't be allowed to.
0:30:23 > 0:30:25Well, anything can be done, David, if we want.
0:30:25 > 0:30:26We could change the rules.
0:30:26 > 0:30:28Greg, why don't you change the rules?
0:30:28 > 0:30:29I'll come to you.
0:30:29 > 0:30:30Just briefly.
0:30:30 > 0:30:33Try and explain what the constraint is that stops you doing
0:30:33 > 0:30:36what Stuart Rose is suggesting.
0:30:36 > 0:30:39The constraint is this, that we have one of the highest
0:30:39 > 0:30:41levels of debt, still, in the Western world.
0:30:41 > 0:30:47It is well over 85% of our national income.
0:30:47 > 0:30:53And the trouble is that you can't just borrow more and more and more
0:30:53 > 0:30:55and add to that debt without interest rates rising,
0:30:55 > 0:31:00and without lenders not being willing to support you.
0:31:00 > 0:31:02And if you do that, you pay more interest on that debt.
0:31:02 > 0:31:04So you think the Labour policy...
0:31:04 > 0:31:05Yes.
0:31:05 > 0:31:07Hang on, you think...
0:31:07 > 0:31:11Labour is always saying, as Diane just said, interest rates
0:31:11 > 0:31:13are very low at the moment.
0:31:13 > 0:31:15You're saying if they do build more, interest rates will rise.
0:31:15 > 0:31:18Diane, equally, says you make money on what you invest.
0:31:18 > 0:31:20Interest rates are at a near historic low,
0:31:20 > 0:31:24as we know, but already today, the interest, the annual interest
0:31:24 > 0:31:29on our national debt is, last year was £48 billion.
0:31:29 > 0:31:34If I tell you that the police budget is £12 billion,
0:31:34 > 0:31:37I don't think that adding more to our interest payments,
0:31:37 > 0:31:39which would have to be at the expense of public services,
0:31:39 > 0:31:41is the responsible way to go.
0:31:41 > 0:31:43Of course we would like to have more house building,
0:31:43 > 0:31:46but we have to be responsible.
0:31:46 > 0:31:48Bernard.
0:31:48 > 0:31:51For me, I think at the moment clearly we have a massive problem.
0:31:51 > 0:31:53We need 200,000 houses a year for a while.
0:31:53 > 0:31:56And the response at the moment, I think, is quite incremental.
0:31:56 > 0:31:5920,000 is nowhere near.
0:31:59 > 0:32:01And there are two effects, obviously.
0:32:01 > 0:32:04One is that the price of houses that are there are getting
0:32:04 > 0:32:05more and more expensive.
0:32:05 > 0:32:06Some people haven't got houses.
0:32:06 > 0:32:09There was a report by Mark Easton on the BBC News
0:32:09 > 0:32:10about four weeks ago now.
0:32:10 > 0:32:12This happens to be London, and there were families
0:32:12 > 0:32:14who were living in a pub.
0:32:14 > 0:32:17Single room, sharing one room.
0:32:17 > 0:32:19It just looked...
0:32:19 > 0:32:22It didn't look awful, it was awful that in this country,
0:32:22 > 0:32:25in this day and age, that was happening.
0:32:25 > 0:32:27I'm sure nobody wants that, but that's a pretty
0:32:27 > 0:32:28awful state to get to.
0:32:28 > 0:32:32So of all the things that we might need a tsar for,
0:32:32 > 0:32:34you might need someone to grab this and then do lots of
0:32:34 > 0:32:35things, not one thing.
0:32:35 > 0:32:38And I think I agree with this gentleman over here all right,
0:32:38 > 0:32:40it's good for the 300,000.
0:32:40 > 0:32:41But alone that won't do it.
0:32:41 > 0:32:43I don't think a billion's going to do it.
0:32:43 > 0:32:44Things like infrastructure.
0:32:44 > 0:32:47It's the job of government to put in roads and rail so that builders
0:32:47 > 0:32:49can build around it.
0:32:49 > 0:32:50Then you will get things to happen.
0:32:50 > 0:32:51You can tax incentivise it.
0:32:51 > 0:32:52You can innovate.
0:32:52 > 0:32:55You don't have to carry on building buildings in the same way.
0:32:55 > 0:32:57You have prefab buildings.
0:32:57 > 0:32:58You can get top-end range houses now, prefabs.
0:32:58 > 0:33:00Why can't we get mid-range houses?
0:33:00 > 0:33:05You can speed up planning.
0:33:05 > 0:33:07I agree with rent controls, provided it was an interim measure.
0:33:07 > 0:33:09I think if you disturb the market too long,
0:33:09 > 0:33:11I don't think that's wise for anybody.
0:33:11 > 0:33:14But you could do it for three to five years while some
0:33:14 > 0:33:15of these things took effect.
0:33:15 > 0:33:18But I do think it needs a comprehensive plan and it doesn't
0:33:18 > 0:33:19feel at the minute comprehensive.
0:33:19 > 0:33:22And you've got a lot of people who are losing,
0:33:22 > 0:33:24well, their life chances, kids, as they are growing
0:33:24 > 0:33:25through pretty awful circumstances.
0:33:25 > 0:33:27I think we need to do something pretty quickly.
0:33:27 > 0:33:28OK.
0:33:28 > 0:33:30Let's go to the audience.
0:33:30 > 0:33:32You, sir.
0:33:32 > 0:33:35I think it's an absolute disgrace for the minister to rely on this
0:33:35 > 0:33:37argument about lack of money.
0:33:37 > 0:33:40He ought to live in Colchester.
0:33:40 > 0:33:45There is no infrastructure here to support the houses.
0:33:45 > 0:33:52APPLAUSE
0:33:52 > 0:33:55The hospital can't cope, the roads can't cope.
0:33:55 > 0:33:57Just explain what you mean.
0:33:57 > 0:34:03Well, Colchester is probably one of the largest areas of house building
0:34:03 > 0:34:06in the south-east of England.
0:34:06 > 0:34:08That's the first point.
0:34:08 > 0:34:12It has had a record number of houses.
0:34:12 > 0:34:16It outperforms all the Essex towns by a country mile.
0:34:16 > 0:34:18And yet the council here is determined to
0:34:18 > 0:34:25build 920 homes a year.
0:34:25 > 0:34:26The hospital can't cope, the roads can't cope.
0:34:26 > 0:34:29The schools can't cope.
0:34:29 > 0:34:34APPLAUSE
0:34:34 > 0:34:35I'm sorry.
0:34:35 > 0:34:38So you think that the government's ambitions are overambitious
0:34:38 > 0:34:40in terms of Colchester, that too many houses
0:34:40 > 0:34:42are being built?
0:34:42 > 0:34:43Yes.
0:34:43 > 0:34:47They're trying to lump more houses on Colchester.
0:34:47 > 0:34:50This is what the latest white paper is saying,
0:34:50 > 0:34:54that Colchester Borough Council have rejected that approach.
0:34:54 > 0:34:56But they want, because Colchester has delivered so many houses
0:34:56 > 0:35:00in the past, they want to lump more houses on Colchester.
0:35:00 > 0:35:03And the people of Colchester are completely fed up with it.
0:35:03 > 0:35:05OK.
0:35:05 > 0:35:09Dreda.
0:35:09 > 0:35:11That's very interesting.
0:35:11 > 0:35:14I completely agree there has to be infrastructure.
0:35:14 > 0:35:17You can't just build, you have to service your actual community.
0:35:17 > 0:35:22But I keep going back to the question about stamp duty.
0:35:22 > 0:35:25And before I came today, I went back to where I grew up,
0:35:25 > 0:35:27which is a very poor part of east London.
0:35:27 > 0:35:31And I went online to look at some houses on one of those online
0:35:31 > 0:35:34websites that collates all the information about all
0:35:34 > 0:35:37the property being sold.
0:35:37 > 0:35:3942 pages, 25 properties a page.
0:35:39 > 0:35:46I got to page 20 before I found anything that was under a million.
0:35:46 > 0:35:49And when I got to page 42, there were no properties that
0:35:49 > 0:35:54were 500,000 or less.
0:35:54 > 0:35:57This is the reality for lots of people who live
0:35:57 > 0:36:00in some of our cities, particularly places like London.
0:36:00 > 0:36:03So for me, and I'm completely in agreement with Bernard, Greg,
0:36:03 > 0:36:08the government have got to have an overall strategy.
0:36:08 > 0:36:11And I feel it should be a strategy that stops talking about housing.
0:36:11 > 0:36:12It has to include rent.
0:36:12 > 0:36:14We need to start talking about homes.
0:36:14 > 0:36:15Let's have a home strategy.
0:36:15 > 0:36:18If we start talking about people need homes where they live,
0:36:18 > 0:36:21where they can have roots, where their children can
0:36:21 > 0:36:24grow up, it just changes the narrative completely.
0:36:24 > 0:36:27Because very often we think about housing, we think bricks
0:36:27 > 0:36:29and mortar, and very often we are actually thinking
0:36:29 > 0:36:31about investment.
0:36:31 > 0:36:40Let's start thinking about making homes for people in Britain.
0:36:40 > 0:36:42We're more than halfway through, well over half way through.
0:36:42 > 0:36:46I want to go to other subjects but I want to take a couple more
0:36:46 > 0:36:47points from our audience.
0:36:47 > 0:36:48The woman there.
0:36:48 > 0:36:51I feel like I'm part of the generation that is never
0:36:51 > 0:36:53going to be able to afford my own home.
0:36:53 > 0:36:56I have a fairly good salary, I pay a very expensive rent
0:36:56 > 0:36:57which means I cannot save.
0:36:57 > 0:36:59These 920 houses that Colchester are committed to building,
0:36:59 > 0:37:01I'd love to be able to afford one.
0:37:01 > 0:37:03I can't save for a deposit.
0:37:03 > 0:37:05I could easily pay for a mortgage.
0:37:05 > 0:37:07It would be a lot cheaper than my rent.
0:37:07 > 0:37:08APPLAUSE
0:37:08 > 0:37:10The man at the very back, behind you.
0:37:10 > 0:37:12At the very back.
0:37:12 > 0:37:15Of course a lack of house building is one of the main contributors
0:37:15 > 0:37:17to the housing crisis, but what's the government
0:37:17 > 0:37:20going to do about land banking, which is often overlooked,
0:37:20 > 0:37:25where effectively landlords profit from people being homeless?
0:37:25 > 0:37:29OK.
0:37:29 > 0:37:33You can just briefly answer John, because we've got to move on.
0:37:33 > 0:37:35John is absolutely right in saying that infrastructure has
0:37:35 > 0:37:37to accompany house building.
0:37:37 > 0:37:39It goes to Bernard's point that the package that Sajid Javid
0:37:39 > 0:37:42announced included infrastructure to support house building.
0:37:42 > 0:37:46And to the gentleman's point there, he is absolutely right.
0:37:46 > 0:37:48We've had 322,000 planning permissions, but only about half
0:37:48 > 0:37:50have been built out.
0:37:50 > 0:37:53So again, what my colleague has proposed is that there are powers
0:37:53 > 0:37:57to allow councils to get those homes built, rather than just sitting
0:37:57 > 0:38:01with planning permission.
0:38:01 > 0:38:04That's why you do need to bring it together into a strategy.
0:38:04 > 0:38:05There's not one single panacea.
0:38:05 > 0:38:15You need to work across fronts.
0:38:16 > 0:38:21I'm afraid at this point we had to curtail this edition of Question
0:38:21 > 0:38:25Time. A member of the audience was taken ill and could not safely be
0:38:25 > 0:38:28moved, so we had to bring the programme to a close.
0:38:28 > 0:38:30moved, so we had to bring the programme to a close. Let me tell
0:38:30 > 0:38:34you about next Thursday. Question Time is coming from Scarborough and
0:38:34 > 0:38:39we have Labour MP Chuka Umunna, former Greek finance minister Yanis
0:38:39 > 0:38:44Varoufakis, and the new leader of Ukip, Henry Bolton on the panel. The
0:38:44 > 0:38:52week after that we will be in Swansea. Call us if you would like
0:38:52 > 0:38:55to be in either audience, or go to the website and follow the
0:38:55 > 0:39:02instructions. Question Time extra time follows on five live. Once
0:39:02 > 0:39:07again, apologies for this curtailed edition of Question Time. Until next
0:39:07 > 0:39:12Thursday, from Colchester, good night.