07/12/2017

0:00:02 > 0:00:04Tonight, we're in Swansea, and welcome to Question Time.

0:00:12 > 0:00:13And with us here this evening,

0:00:13 > 0:00:17the Conservative MP and an ardent campaigner for Britain

0:00:17 > 0:00:20to leave the EU, Bernard Jenkin.

0:00:20 > 0:00:22The Shadow Secretary of State for Northern Ireland,

0:00:22 > 0:00:27who challenged Jeremy Corbyn for the Labour leadership, Owen Smith.

0:00:27 > 0:00:29English-born but fully committed to Wales,

0:00:29 > 0:00:33the leader of Plaid Cymru at Westminster, Liz Saville Roberts.

0:00:33 > 0:00:36Kate Andrew, journalist, commentator,

0:00:36 > 0:00:40who says Brexit will work if it gives us free trade.

0:00:40 > 0:00:43And the former Blue Peter and Top Of The Pops presenter,

0:00:43 > 0:00:47proud to admit he's obsessed with politics, Richard Bacon.

0:00:47 > 0:00:50APPLAUSE

0:00:59 > 0:01:01Thank you very much indeed.

0:01:01 > 0:01:04And as always, of course, you can take issue with what's said here,

0:01:04 > 0:01:08either by the audience or by the panel, by using our hashtag #BBCQT

0:01:08 > 0:01:10on Twitter, on Facebook.

0:01:10 > 0:01:11You can text 83981,

0:01:11 > 0:01:14and the red button will tell you what others are saying.

0:01:14 > 0:01:15I should say, the panel, of course,

0:01:15 > 0:01:18as always, don't know the questions in advance,

0:01:18 > 0:01:21and they don't know this one, which comes from Kelvin Harles, please.

0:01:21 > 0:01:23Kelvin.

0:01:23 > 0:01:28Would Brexit make an ideal theme for a modern Christmas pantomime?

0:01:28 > 0:01:30APPLAUSE

0:01:34 > 0:01:36Oh, yes, it would!

0:01:36 > 0:01:37LAUGHTER

0:01:37 > 0:01:40Oh, yes, it would! Owen Smith?

0:01:40 > 0:01:42Well, yes is the short answer.

0:01:42 > 0:01:45I'm not sure which would be the end of the horse -

0:01:45 > 0:01:47the Tories or the DUP -

0:01:47 > 0:01:50but the last week has been an extraordinary pantomime.

0:01:50 > 0:01:52It's a very good word to describe it.

0:01:52 > 0:01:54We all thought it was a deal done.

0:01:54 > 0:01:57We all thought there was going to be resolution

0:01:57 > 0:01:58of the Irish border question.

0:01:58 > 0:02:01We thought it because the Tories were telling us the deal was done.

0:02:01 > 0:02:05They were briefing straightaway on Monday that they'd sorted it out,

0:02:05 > 0:02:06and it was all in the bag.

0:02:06 > 0:02:08The Irish thought it was all sorted out,

0:02:08 > 0:02:10and then, of course, Arlene Foster rang up at the last minute,

0:02:10 > 0:02:13the leader of the DUP, and pulled the plug.

0:02:13 > 0:02:16And it's been, unfortunately, symbolic,

0:02:16 > 0:02:19that pantomime performance, of the entire way in which

0:02:19 > 0:02:23the Tories have been running the Brexit negotiations

0:02:23 > 0:02:24from start to finish.

0:02:24 > 0:02:27You know, I'm deeply worried that we're not going to get a deal.

0:02:27 > 0:02:30I hope we're going to get something in the next couple of days

0:02:30 > 0:02:33that will allow us on to the next stage,

0:02:33 > 0:02:35because we need to get to the next stage of the talks,

0:02:35 > 0:02:39but the reality is, if they continue like this, then it is all

0:02:39 > 0:02:42going to end, not in the laughter of a pantomime, but in tears.

0:02:42 > 0:02:43OK.

0:02:48 > 0:02:50I wonder who Widow Twankey is.

0:02:50 > 0:02:52Bernard Jenkin?

0:02:52 > 0:02:53I think it will probably...

0:02:53 > 0:02:57- It'll be far too long for a pantomime.- Oh, really?

0:02:57 > 0:03:00I think people would get far too bored with it.

0:03:00 > 0:03:02I'm afraid it's going to go on

0:03:02 > 0:03:05for at least another sort of 18 months or so,

0:03:05 > 0:03:07so I think we need to stay calm.

0:03:07 > 0:03:12European negotiations are always very last-minute.

0:03:12 > 0:03:14The important thing is, Owen,

0:03:14 > 0:03:16that we do actually deliver the referendum result.

0:03:16 > 0:03:17We don't try and reverse it.

0:03:17 > 0:03:20And you're part of a team in the Labour Party that are trying

0:03:20 > 0:03:23to pull Jeremy Corbyn back from his manifesto commitments

0:03:23 > 0:03:26- to honour the Leave vote. - I don't know what you mean!

0:03:26 > 0:03:28You want another referendum.

0:03:28 > 0:03:29You didn't vote for Article 50.

0:03:29 > 0:03:33You didn't even want to respect the referendum result to start with.

0:03:33 > 0:03:35And we are going to fulfil our manifesto commitments.

0:03:35 > 0:03:39We're going to take back control over our laws, our borders,

0:03:39 > 0:03:43our money, and our right to create new trading relationships

0:03:43 > 0:03:45with the growing part of the world,

0:03:45 > 0:03:47the 90% of the economic part of the world

0:03:47 > 0:03:49that is growing much faster than the EU,

0:03:49 > 0:03:51because that's where our long-term prosperity lies.

0:03:57 > 0:03:59Kelvin, let me just ask you,

0:03:59 > 0:04:01do you think it's turning into a pantomime?

0:04:01 > 0:04:04It is a farce.

0:04:04 > 0:04:05It's unreal.

0:04:05 > 0:04:07There doesn't seem to be...

0:04:09 > 0:04:13..any direction from any source at the moment.

0:04:13 > 0:04:17I think what we need is a Prince Charming to come along

0:04:17 > 0:04:19and save the country.

0:04:19 > 0:04:20- RICHARD BACON:- Did you vote for it?

0:04:20 > 0:04:22Perhaps marry an American celebrity,

0:04:22 > 0:04:26and thereby secure a good trade deal with America, perhaps.

0:04:26 > 0:04:28OK. Richard Bacon.

0:04:28 > 0:04:30Did you vote for Brexit?

0:04:30 > 0:04:32- No.- No.

0:04:32 > 0:04:35I think... I suppose, with a pantomime,

0:04:35 > 0:04:37when you go to see a pantomime,

0:04:37 > 0:04:40at least you more or less know what it is you're going to get,

0:04:40 > 0:04:43and now I look at Brexit, and there were

0:04:43 > 0:04:45lots of good reasons to vote for Brexit -

0:04:45 > 0:04:47I'm sure people in this audience sincerely voted for Brexit

0:04:47 > 0:04:48for sensible reasons.

0:04:48 > 0:04:50It was not something I voted for.

0:04:50 > 0:04:55But I actually now think that whichever side you voted on,

0:04:55 > 0:04:59it turns out that no-one really knew anything about it,

0:04:59 > 0:05:02and that it's turned out to be so much more...

0:05:02 > 0:05:03APPLAUSE

0:05:07 > 0:05:11..so much more complicated than anyone thought.

0:05:11 > 0:05:15And it's astonishing, when you look at the Irish border question

0:05:15 > 0:05:17that we're talking about this week,

0:05:17 > 0:05:21that no-one seems to have thought about these consequences.

0:05:21 > 0:05:24And I was looking, Bernard - I know you're part of Vote Leave -

0:05:24 > 0:05:27and I was looking at some literature that you put your name to

0:05:27 > 0:05:30earlier today... It was during the campaign, I should say.

0:05:30 > 0:05:33Because I don't remember any reference to the Irish border

0:05:33 > 0:05:34during the campaign.

0:05:34 > 0:05:37Do you remember that? During the campaign for Brexit.

0:05:37 > 0:05:39I looked at a letter you wrote, and it was all about

0:05:39 > 0:05:43the NHS getting money, and scientific research getting money,

0:05:43 > 0:05:46and we're going to take back powers and have less red tape,

0:05:46 > 0:05:50and I couldn't see the Irish border in there anywhere,

0:05:50 > 0:05:54and I think it's one of the many things, many intractable problems,

0:05:54 > 0:05:57that have come up from Brexit that no-one thought about beforehand.

0:05:57 > 0:05:58Did you think about it, Bernard?

0:05:58 > 0:06:00Let him answer him.

0:06:00 > 0:06:03Is he right - it wasn't in your stuff?

0:06:03 > 0:06:06It was never an issue, and it shouldn't be an issue,

0:06:06 > 0:06:09because there's not going to be a hard border in Northern Ireland.

0:06:09 > 0:06:11Who says it shouldn't be an issue?

0:06:11 > 0:06:14For example, the Permanent Secretary who actually runs the HMRC

0:06:14 > 0:06:17that would collect the customs revenue at the border

0:06:17 > 0:06:20between Northern Ireland and Southern Ireland, he has said,

0:06:20 > 0:06:22his consistent advice to ministers,

0:06:22 > 0:06:24he's told a select committee quite recently,

0:06:24 > 0:06:27consistent advice to ministers, whatever circumstances,

0:06:27 > 0:06:30whatever the arrangements, there is no need for a hard border.

0:06:30 > 0:06:33- The former Prime Minister of the... - What would a hard border mean?

0:06:33 > 0:06:35There's no need for new infrastructure at the border,

0:06:35 > 0:06:37no need to stop lorries at the border,

0:06:37 > 0:06:39- no need to put up a checkpoint at the border.- How do you stop...?

0:06:39 > 0:06:42And the former Prime Minister of the Republic of Ireland,

0:06:42 > 0:06:44Bertie Ahern, he agrees.

0:06:44 > 0:06:47He says you don't need to have a hard border.

0:06:47 > 0:06:49This is a manufactured row.

0:06:49 > 0:06:50- By the DUP?- No, by the...

0:06:50 > 0:06:53The people who are keeping you in power.

0:06:53 > 0:06:55By the Government of Ireland and by the EU,

0:06:55 > 0:06:59who are trying to leverage more money and more concessions

0:06:59 > 0:07:01- out of the British Government. - What about the DUP?

0:07:01 > 0:07:04Well, the DUP is actually supporting the British Government,

0:07:04 > 0:07:06and the British Government is supporting the DUP.

0:07:06 > 0:07:08There is agreement between them.

0:07:08 > 0:07:09Liz Saville Roberts.

0:07:09 > 0:07:13The DUP has this Government dancing to the tune of a Lambeg drum.

0:07:13 > 0:07:17But I'm sure, Bernard, you know as well as I that the customs union

0:07:17 > 0:07:20requires a solid barrier if we are beyond the customs union.

0:07:20 > 0:07:21No, it does not.

0:07:21 > 0:07:23It does in the sense of goods being moved across it.

0:07:23 > 0:07:24No, it doesn't.

0:07:24 > 0:07:26Now, my party is the only one here

0:07:26 > 0:07:28that has been consistent in its argument

0:07:28 > 0:07:32that the best deal for Wales, and to be perfectly honest,

0:07:32 > 0:07:35the best deal for the whole of the United Kingdom,

0:07:35 > 0:07:38is to remain in the single market and the customs union.

0:07:38 > 0:07:40APPLAUSE

0:07:40 > 0:07:42And no-one voted to leave that.

0:07:42 > 0:07:43Nobody voted to leave that.

0:07:43 > 0:07:46Many people were sold a tissue of lies.

0:07:46 > 0:07:48And in all honesty, we need certainty now.

0:07:48 > 0:07:51Kate. Let's get Kate Andrews in.

0:07:51 > 0:07:55There are pros and cons to any vote, especially one of this magnitude,

0:07:55 > 0:07:58and the British people have voted to leave the European Union.

0:07:58 > 0:08:01If you decide to stay in the single market and customs union,

0:08:01 > 0:08:03you're basically cutting yourself off

0:08:03 > 0:08:05from one of the biggest pros of Brexit,

0:08:05 > 0:08:08which is that you get to create free trade deals around the world.

0:08:08 > 0:08:10So, I think that would be a very negative thing to do

0:08:10 > 0:08:13if you want to actually capitalise on the positive sides of Brexit.

0:08:13 > 0:08:16I appreciate that there are going to be some hurdles along the way.

0:08:16 > 0:08:17To Kelvin's point,

0:08:17 > 0:08:19you're absolutely right that this has become a pantomime.

0:08:19 > 0:08:22I mean, the politics of it and the personalities of it

0:08:22 > 0:08:24are getting in the way of good negotiating.

0:08:24 > 0:08:27The Labour Party is not much better, frankly.

0:08:27 > 0:08:29That's like a traditional slapstick British comedy.

0:08:29 > 0:08:32One person walks in, says, "We're staying in the single market,"

0:08:32 > 0:08:34leaves, and someone else walks in and says,

0:08:34 > 0:08:35"Oh, no, we're definitely leaving."

0:08:35 > 0:08:38And politicians aren't being very honest with people right now.

0:08:38 > 0:08:41These are crucial moments of decision-making,

0:08:41 > 0:08:43and if we're going to capitalise on the benefits of Brexit

0:08:43 > 0:08:46now that that decision has been taken, we need serious discussions

0:08:46 > 0:08:48about the trade deal we're going to get.

0:08:48 > 0:08:49OK. Let me hear from...

0:08:49 > 0:08:51APPLAUSE

0:08:52 > 0:08:55Let's hear from one or two members of our audience.

0:08:55 > 0:08:57You in the front, in the middle there.

0:08:57 > 0:08:58Then I'll come to you up there. Yes.

0:08:58 > 0:09:00It seemed like a pantomime yesterday,

0:09:00 > 0:09:04with David Davis with his speech in front of the committee.

0:09:04 > 0:09:06- That's right.- He seemed as if he'd lost his script,

0:09:06 > 0:09:09because the things he was coming out with in terms of,

0:09:09 > 0:09:14he's not assessed the risk of us leaving Brexit,

0:09:14 > 0:09:18it just seems a total embarrassment, and what are the Government doing?

0:09:18 > 0:09:20Perhaps Bernard could answer that, because he said

0:09:20 > 0:09:23he was going to do 58, 51 or 58, depending on your view...

0:09:23 > 0:09:26- OWEN SMITH:- He said he'd done it. - He said he'd done it.- Nine times.

0:09:26 > 0:09:28He's never actually referred to impact assessments.

0:09:28 > 0:09:31These were a fiction of the media and the Labour Party.

0:09:31 > 0:09:34- What was he doing? - Then you put them into a motion

0:09:34 > 0:09:36without working out what you really meant.

0:09:36 > 0:09:38What was he doing with those 58... What were they?

0:09:38 > 0:09:39There's tonnes, I mean,

0:09:39 > 0:09:43there are 58 sectors that have been subject to some sectoral analysis.

0:09:43 > 0:09:46And you can go and read it if you want.

0:09:46 > 0:09:48It's now in a pile of 800 papers

0:09:48 > 0:09:51in a room that we don't want to spread around too much

0:09:51 > 0:09:54because it might give our opposition some...

0:09:54 > 0:09:56There's nothing in it worth reading, Bernard.

0:09:56 > 0:09:58- I've looked at them.- There you are.

0:09:58 > 0:10:00- You've been to see it already, have you?- I have.

0:10:00 > 0:10:03The reality is that David Davis and Theresa May

0:10:03 > 0:10:06said on nine separate occasions in the House of Commons

0:10:06 > 0:10:10that they'd done or were doing 58 -

0:10:10 > 0:10:14sometimes he said 57, sometimes 60, but around 58 -

0:10:14 > 0:10:17sectoral analyses that were absolutely meant to show

0:10:17 > 0:10:20what the impact of Brexit would be on those different sectors,

0:10:20 > 0:10:23and he now says that there aren't any.

0:10:23 > 0:10:24- KATE ANDREW:- But, Owen, you're going back...

0:10:24 > 0:10:28That's misleading Parliament and it's misleading you, the public.

0:10:28 > 0:10:30And he needs to be held to account for that.

0:10:30 > 0:10:32APPLAUSE

0:10:32 > 0:10:34Sorry, can I ask a very simple question -

0:10:34 > 0:10:37what is a sector analysis if it's not saying,

0:10:37 > 0:10:40"This is what will happen to aerospace, this is..."

0:10:40 > 0:10:42- What is it?- We are going back to the politics of it.

0:10:42 > 0:10:46On what scenario are you going to base your assumptions?

0:10:46 > 0:10:50What do you mean, what scenario? He was the one who was doing it.

0:10:50 > 0:10:55"We've got 50, nearly 60, sectoral analyses already done," he said.

0:10:55 > 0:10:57On the basis of what you want, Bernard - Brexit.

0:10:57 > 0:10:59Surely that's what we should be analysing.

0:10:59 > 0:11:00What is what you want going to do?

0:11:00 > 0:11:02Surely the Government has a responsibility

0:11:02 > 0:11:04to be modelling what the likely outcomes are.

0:11:04 > 0:11:06On the basis of what assumptions?

0:11:06 > 0:11:08- And not just analysing... - On the basis...

0:11:08 > 0:11:11And these analyses should be published next week.

0:11:11 > 0:11:13OK, one at a time. Why did he do it, then?

0:11:13 > 0:11:15Why did he say he was doing it? He must know the assumptions.

0:11:15 > 0:11:18Because there is lots of work being done in lots of departments

0:11:18 > 0:11:19about different sectors of the economy,

0:11:19 > 0:11:21and what we need to negotiate

0:11:21 > 0:11:24in order to further the interests of those sectors in the economy.

0:11:24 > 0:11:26That's not to say there's a definitive forecast

0:11:26 > 0:11:29for each sector of the economy on the day we leave,

0:11:29 > 0:11:31because we don't even know what kind of deal there is going be.

0:11:31 > 0:11:34Back to Kelvin's point - this whole conversation now

0:11:34 > 0:11:37has gone back to political point-scoring and politics.

0:11:37 > 0:11:40- OWEN SMITH:- It's about the truth, Kate.- Let her speak.

0:11:40 > 0:11:43We want to be talking about what those impact assessments

0:11:43 > 0:11:45would even look like if we were able to do them,

0:11:45 > 0:11:48and the truth is of the matter, you get a lot of nonsensical statistics.

0:11:48 > 0:11:50I work for an economic think tank.

0:11:50 > 0:11:53Economists are really good at analysing the past.

0:11:53 > 0:11:55They're really, really bad at predicting the future.

0:11:55 > 0:11:57What we need our politicians to be doing

0:11:57 > 0:12:00is negotiating the best trade deal possible.

0:12:00 > 0:12:03Let's stop talking about the politics and get to the policy.

0:12:07 > 0:12:11So, Kate, when you heard that David Davis was saying

0:12:11 > 0:12:15he'd got these sector analyses nearly done in June,

0:12:15 > 0:12:16what did you read into that?

0:12:16 > 0:12:19That he was just talking blather

0:12:19 > 0:12:21or that he was doing something you didn't approve of, or what?

0:12:21 > 0:12:24No, I mean, like everybody else, I believed him and was disappointed

0:12:24 > 0:12:26to hear that he was so sloppy with his language.

0:12:26 > 0:12:29- Perhaps he needs a much bigger slap...- Nine times.

0:12:29 > 0:12:30Yes, I don't disagree with you on that.

0:12:30 > 0:12:33He probably needs a bigger slap on the wrist than he's been given,

0:12:33 > 0:12:34but qualitative assessments,

0:12:34 > 0:12:37looking at what different sectors are going to need post-Brexit,

0:12:37 > 0:12:40is a lot more important than coming up with sloppy numbers.

0:12:40 > 0:12:41What happened during the referendum

0:12:41 > 0:12:43when the Government came out with its figures?

0:12:43 > 0:12:46"£4,000 worse off if you vote for Brexit."

0:12:46 > 0:12:48You know, "The economy is going to grow 6% less than it would have

0:12:48 > 0:12:51"if you vote for Brexit." Was that true? No.

0:12:51 > 0:12:53So, what are these numbers going to do now?

0:12:53 > 0:12:56- RICHARD BACON:- "£350 million for the NHS."

0:12:56 > 0:12:57APPLAUSE

0:12:57 > 0:13:00- Yeah, disappointment on both sides. - Where did that come from?

0:13:00 > 0:13:02Exactly, disappointment on both sides.

0:13:02 > 0:13:04- BERNARD JENKIN:- Can I tell you exactly where that came from?

0:13:04 > 0:13:08That came from a table of statistics that is produced by the Government,

0:13:08 > 0:13:10and I am chairman of the committee...

0:13:10 > 0:13:12I'm chairman of the committee

0:13:12 > 0:13:14that looks at the Statistics Authority, and I said to them,

0:13:14 > 0:13:1618 months before the referendum,

0:13:16 > 0:13:18"You should change this table, because it's misleading."

0:13:18 > 0:13:21- You put your name to that. - And they changed the table.

0:13:21 > 0:13:24They changed the table now. You can't derive that figure...

0:13:24 > 0:13:25Let's not go back over that.

0:13:25 > 0:13:28- But it was still on a bus! - I never used that figure personally.

0:13:28 > 0:13:30Silence, silence.

0:13:30 > 0:13:31Don't go fighting that battle...

0:13:31 > 0:13:34- Quite agree.- ..because it was a year and a half away.

0:13:34 > 0:13:36The man up there at the top right. I mean, it's a good battle to fight,

0:13:36 > 0:13:38but we've got to move on. Up there, the top right.

0:13:38 > 0:13:39You, sir. Yes.

0:13:39 > 0:13:41Speak? Yes, speak.

0:13:41 > 0:13:44Kate made the point of the dishonesty of both sides.

0:13:44 > 0:13:48- Yes?- Surely if there has been so much dishonesty from both sides,

0:13:48 > 0:13:51which I think most people in the audience would agree with,

0:13:51 > 0:13:56then that must be the best reason that we should sit down together

0:13:56 > 0:13:59and be given the opportunity again, as a nation, to say,

0:13:59 > 0:14:03"Now that we've got the truth, we would like another referendum."

0:14:03 > 0:14:05- Yes.- I agree with that.

0:14:05 > 0:14:07APPLAUSE

0:14:07 > 0:14:08OK.

0:14:08 > 0:14:14I'll take a point from the woman there, in the fifth row. Yes. You.

0:14:15 > 0:14:18It's very hard not to be party political about this

0:14:18 > 0:14:21when you see the committee...

0:14:21 > 0:14:24Was it yesterday? It seems like a lifetime already.

0:14:24 > 0:14:28..voting along party lines.

0:14:28 > 0:14:33It's the incompetence that I think really gets everybody.

0:14:33 > 0:14:35Either these sectoral analyses,

0:14:35 > 0:14:39either they have been done and they're being hidden,

0:14:39 > 0:14:46- or they are incredibly incompetent, and just not doing their job.- Yeah.

0:14:46 > 0:14:50It's got to be one or the other. You know, they should have had...

0:14:50 > 0:14:52They don't even know where they're going.

0:14:52 > 0:14:53Owen is saying yes.

0:14:53 > 0:14:56But you're saying all parties are in a muddle about this?

0:14:56 > 0:15:01No, no, because actually, there is a party that is in government.

0:15:01 > 0:15:06And there were ten Tory members on the committee,

0:15:06 > 0:15:11the Brexit committee, and they all voted to support,

0:15:11 > 0:15:14basically, support David Davis.

0:15:14 > 0:15:16It separated along party lines.

0:15:16 > 0:15:21You could make the other argument, that all the opposition parties,

0:15:21 > 0:15:24they voted also on party lines. It's a bit six of one...

0:15:24 > 0:15:27- But if you have...- Let's... - But I'm afraid you're right,

0:15:27 > 0:15:29it's turned into a party-political spat

0:15:29 > 0:15:32that really doesn't add much heat... much light to the situation.

0:15:32 > 0:15:35If he lied to the committee that these were available

0:15:35 > 0:15:38when they were not, there is a question whether that is contempt.

0:15:38 > 0:15:40Right, and now I'm going to leave that point.

0:15:40 > 0:15:42That's a very strong statement to make.

0:15:42 > 0:15:44Let's stick with...

0:15:44 > 0:15:46This is a serious issue, and it's got to be determined

0:15:46 > 0:15:48over the next whatever it is.

0:15:48 > 0:15:50Jonathan Jennings, let's have your question,

0:15:50 > 0:15:52and go to the heart of the matter.

0:15:52 > 0:15:56Might a no-deal Brexit actually be the best result for Britain?

0:15:56 > 0:15:59A no-deal Brexit be the best result, in other words,

0:15:59 > 0:16:02free trade, in effect. What do you think, Kate?

0:16:02 > 0:16:05No, I don't think it would be the best result, and I don't think

0:16:05 > 0:16:09that any party negotiating right now wants that to be the case.

0:16:09 > 0:16:11There's too much to lose.

0:16:11 > 0:16:15There's too much money, there's too much prosperity at stake.

0:16:15 > 0:16:19That being said, I don't think that a bare-bones Brexit, perhaps,

0:16:19 > 0:16:20would be the end of the world.

0:16:20 > 0:16:22If we were to crash out

0:16:22 > 0:16:26with a structure of a deal that wasn't filled in yet,

0:16:26 > 0:16:28we're not starting from scratch, right?

0:16:28 > 0:16:31The UK and the EU would already recognise each other's standards

0:16:31 > 0:16:32to a very large degree.

0:16:32 > 0:16:35The UK already works with countries that aren't in the EU

0:16:35 > 0:16:36on very important things

0:16:36 > 0:16:39like nuclear technology and intelligence.

0:16:39 > 0:16:41You wouldn't be starting from nothing, and it would be

0:16:41 > 0:16:45possible to make it work - I don't think it is the disaster scenario

0:16:45 > 0:16:47if you had a very loose structure in place.

0:16:47 > 0:16:49But let's not aim for no deal.

0:16:49 > 0:16:50We can do this. We're better than this.

0:16:50 > 0:16:53Again, go back to the optimism, look at the positive sides

0:16:53 > 0:16:57of voting for Brexit, and let's try to get the best trade deal possible.

0:16:57 > 0:16:58Liz, you said...

0:17:01 > 0:17:04You said in your view, we should stay both in the single market

0:17:04 > 0:17:06and the customs union.

0:17:06 > 0:17:10So anything other than that, you think, would be a disaster?

0:17:10 > 0:17:13Forgive me for stating the obvious, and I believe this to be true

0:17:13 > 0:17:16for all the nations of the United Kingdom,

0:17:16 > 0:17:17but I am from Plaid Cymru,

0:17:17 > 0:17:20and I have a particular interest in the interests of Wales,

0:17:20 > 0:17:23and a particular interest in the interests of Dwyfor Meirionnydd,

0:17:23 > 0:17:24which is an upland rural area.

0:17:24 > 0:17:31Wales exports to the EU 90% of its agricultural produce.

0:17:31 > 0:17:35It exports a third of its lamb produce.

0:17:35 > 0:17:38If we go out without a deal,

0:17:38 > 0:17:41the good cuts of lamb, which are those which will be exported,

0:17:41 > 0:17:44will have 40% tariffs on them.

0:17:44 > 0:17:46Now, I am not going to sign up,

0:17:46 > 0:17:48as a representative of Dwyfor Meirionnydd,

0:17:48 > 0:17:50to what would effectively be an upland clearance.

0:17:53 > 0:17:56Bernard Jenkin, what about you on a no-deal Brexit?

0:17:56 > 0:18:00Well, obviously, a good deal is better than no deal,

0:18:00 > 0:18:02and that's what we must try to achieve.

0:18:02 > 0:18:08I agree with Kate that if we got a bare-bones deal,

0:18:08 > 0:18:12which is dealing with all the housekeeping, if you like,

0:18:12 > 0:18:16we then move into a deal that's already set up for us

0:18:16 > 0:18:17by the World Trade Organisation

0:18:17 > 0:18:20that's known as most favoured nation status.

0:18:20 > 0:18:24And if we went straight to most favoured nation status,

0:18:24 > 0:18:25there would be some advantages.

0:18:25 > 0:18:28We wouldn't have to pay a huge exit bill.

0:18:28 > 0:18:31We're only going to pay a big exit bill if we get a good trade deal.

0:18:31 > 0:18:35We would immediately have control over our tariffs, our regulation.

0:18:35 > 0:18:40We'd be able to cut tariffs on some of the foods that you pay taxes on.

0:18:40 > 0:18:44When you're buying your tangerines in the shops this Christmas,

0:18:44 > 0:18:46you've got a tariff on the tangerines.

0:18:46 > 0:18:48We don't grow tangerines in this country.

0:18:48 > 0:18:52Why are we protecting, trying to protect our tangerine industry,

0:18:52 > 0:18:53when we haven't got one?

0:18:53 > 0:18:55I am interested in protecting Welsh agriculture.

0:18:55 > 0:18:58Well, of course. And if we went to a bare-bones deal and WTO,

0:18:58 > 0:19:01the Government would immediately have a lot more money

0:19:01 > 0:19:03to be able to spend on protecting upland farming.

0:19:03 > 0:19:06And we've always protected upland farming.

0:19:06 > 0:19:09The man up there in the white T-shirt. You.

0:19:09 > 0:19:12If we don't get a no deal, we're going to save £50 billion,

0:19:12 > 0:19:14and that £50 billion could be used

0:19:14 > 0:19:16to pay for the tidal lagoon in Swansea,

0:19:16 > 0:19:19and the electrification of the train line to Swansea as well.

0:19:19 > 0:19:21APPLAUSE

0:19:21 > 0:19:28So your view is, no deal and no money on exiting, just leave.

0:19:28 > 0:19:30Yeah, because I don't see...

0:19:30 > 0:19:33Why do we have to pay 50 billion to the EU

0:19:33 > 0:19:34to leave in the first place?

0:19:34 > 0:19:35Owen Smith.

0:19:35 > 0:19:39Well, look, I think it's impossible to sit here in Swansea,

0:19:39 > 0:19:44and say anything other than leaving on World Trade terms,

0:19:44 > 0:19:46as Bernard has just advocated,

0:19:46 > 0:19:48and some of his, I think, hard-line Brexiteers want...

0:19:48 > 0:19:51No, I don't think it's the best deal. We want a trade deal.

0:19:51 > 0:19:53Well, I think some of your colleagues want it.

0:19:53 > 0:19:55I think some of those people who were angling for a hard Brexit

0:19:55 > 0:19:58absolutely see that because they see us able to

0:19:58 > 0:20:01sort of buccaneer across the world. I think that's fantasy.

0:20:01 > 0:20:04We're here in Swansea. We've already heard about the lamb.

0:20:04 > 0:20:07We've got a car plant just down the road from us here.

0:20:07 > 0:20:10We'd have 10-20% tariffs on the cars being exported.

0:20:10 > 0:20:13Not 20% - complete rubbish.

0:20:13 > 0:20:16We'd have import taxes, of course, both ways,

0:20:16 > 0:20:19that would affect the steelworks that is just down the road,

0:20:19 > 0:20:23both on the things we were importing in order to create the steel

0:20:23 > 0:20:26- and on the steel we export. - No, you're wrong about that, too.

0:20:26 > 0:20:30- Hang on, you said 10 or 20. - It's 12% on cars.- On cars.

0:20:30 > 0:20:33- It's 9.5%.- 10% then.

0:20:33 > 0:20:36Does anyone want to pay an extra 10% for car exports?

0:20:36 > 0:20:38- Can I just tell you something? - And crucially...

0:20:38 > 0:20:39Can I just explain something to you?

0:20:39 > 0:20:42This is far too serious, cos here in Swansea we've got a car plant.

0:20:42 > 0:20:44I want to make a serious point to you, actually.

0:20:44 > 0:20:46- We've got a car plant just down the road...- Yes.

0:20:46 > 0:20:48..where those engines - the Bridgend plant -

0:20:48 > 0:20:49could also be made in Spain,

0:20:49 > 0:20:52and I'm deeply worried about the future of that plant,

0:20:52 > 0:20:55because we already know there are grave concerns about its future,

0:20:55 > 0:20:58and we know that Ford are worried about the uncertainty...

0:20:58 > 0:21:01Let Bernard Jenkin reply to that, then I'll come to you.

0:21:01 > 0:21:04Ford has already announced investment into motor

0:21:04 > 0:21:06and manufacturing in this country since the vote,

0:21:06 > 0:21:09so they've got more confidence in this country than you have.

0:21:09 > 0:21:12And said they're worried about that plant after 2021.

0:21:12 > 0:21:14And you're wrong about the tariffs.

0:21:14 > 0:21:17What's imported and processed and then exported,

0:21:17 > 0:21:21gets what's called inward processing relief. You don't pay the tax twice.

0:21:21 > 0:21:23It's quite a clever tax, and in any case,

0:21:23 > 0:21:28the pound has already fallen very substantially since we had the vote.

0:21:28 > 0:21:30Why was that? Why did it fall?

0:21:30 > 0:21:33Well, actually, the IMF said it was overvalued -

0:21:33 > 0:21:35it triggered a devaluation.

0:21:35 > 0:21:40The pound has already fallen more than the cost of the tariff.

0:21:40 > 0:21:44If we had tariffs on motors... We import far more cars than we export.

0:21:44 > 0:21:47We'd collect a lot of money on the cars we import,

0:21:47 > 0:21:51and we'd have more money to spend on the electrification of the railways.

0:21:51 > 0:21:53Richard Bacon.

0:21:53 > 0:21:55There were so many unforeseen consequences to Brexit, and I think

0:21:55 > 0:21:58the devaluation of the pound... The Defence Secretary this

0:21:58 > 0:22:02week has been talking about the need to buy more military equipment.

0:22:02 > 0:22:05Britain wants to buy, I think, 138 F35 fighters from America.

0:22:05 > 0:22:07We have devalued so much against the dollar

0:22:07 > 0:22:10that we can no longer really afford them.

0:22:10 > 0:22:12And that's one of the many consequences.

0:22:12 > 0:22:14But I think to your point about the 50 billion, I mean,

0:22:14 > 0:22:17A - that was a figure that we were told we were never

0:22:17 > 0:22:20going to have to pay, and I think if we had no deal Brexit...

0:22:20 > 0:22:21You can't have a no deal Brexit.

0:22:21 > 0:22:25You've got to have some sort of deal over the Irish border, for example.

0:22:25 > 0:22:26I don't think it's at all possible,

0:22:26 > 0:22:29and I think that those people in government

0:22:29 > 0:22:31talking about a no deal Brexit

0:22:31 > 0:22:35are saying that from an emotional place, rather than a rational place.

0:22:35 > 0:22:38And every independent economic body thinks it would be terrible

0:22:38 > 0:22:42for the economy, and the 50 million that we save

0:22:42 > 0:22:45would be more than lost by the hit to the economy.

0:22:45 > 0:22:48The person in blue there. With spectacles on.

0:22:48 > 0:22:51You're saying about how, like, trade has been affected,

0:22:51 > 0:22:53and how it's costing 4 billion,

0:22:53 > 0:22:55but that's all that's in the social media.

0:22:55 > 0:22:58Because we're out now, that's all the social media is focusing on

0:22:58 > 0:23:01is all the bad stuff about Brexit.

0:23:01 > 0:23:03We need to start focusing on the good stuff about Brexit,

0:23:03 > 0:23:06and why we're leaving, and why the British public chose to leave.

0:23:06 > 0:23:08And how do you think it's going so far?

0:23:08 > 0:23:10Going back to the original question.

0:23:10 > 0:23:12Right now, it's always showing the bad stuff,

0:23:12 > 0:23:13it's not showing any of the good stuff,

0:23:13 > 0:23:15how it's going to save us money in years to come.

0:23:15 > 0:23:18That's completely true. When you're doing any reform,

0:23:18 > 0:23:20the people who are against the reform

0:23:20 > 0:23:23are much noisier than the people who are quietly in favour of the reform.

0:23:23 > 0:23:25Surely the Brexit impact assessment should have been able

0:23:25 > 0:23:28to tell us that, and they would have been...

0:23:28 > 0:23:31APPLAUSE

0:23:32 > 0:23:35So you want the government to publish more political propaganda?

0:23:35 > 0:23:37I thought that was one of the mistakes

0:23:37 > 0:23:39the government made during the referendum.

0:23:39 > 0:23:41What's extremely distressing at present is apparently,

0:23:41 > 0:23:45the best minds of the civil service are all engaged with Brexit,

0:23:45 > 0:23:48and all the other departments are suffering from the loss.

0:23:48 > 0:23:51And it's going to be the best decision we've made for 50 years.

0:23:51 > 0:23:54And all we can see is the greatest incompetency,

0:23:54 > 0:23:57which doesn't raise people's confidence in the future.

0:23:57 > 0:24:00Bernard, just before we move on to another question,

0:24:00 > 0:24:03the cabinet seems divided all the time about the way to go,

0:24:03 > 0:24:07between those who want a softer and a harder route.

0:24:07 > 0:24:10Well, this is a very, very big historical change.

0:24:10 > 0:24:12You expect the cabinet to be divided?

0:24:12 > 0:24:14And the establishment of this country,

0:24:14 > 0:24:17which was almost obsessed with driving us

0:24:17 > 0:24:19on and on into integration in Europe,

0:24:19 > 0:24:22has been rebuffed by a vote of the British people,

0:24:22 > 0:24:24and there is a shock.

0:24:24 > 0:24:26This is a political shock.

0:24:26 > 0:24:28And I think a lot of my colleagues are finding it very difficult

0:24:28 > 0:24:31to adapt to what they were brought up to believe -

0:24:31 > 0:24:33that somehow being in the European Union was absolutely essential

0:24:33 > 0:24:35to this country, but you know what?

0:24:35 > 0:24:38Most countries aren't in the European Union,

0:24:38 > 0:24:40and they're absolutely fine, they do very well.

0:24:40 > 0:24:43We're going to do very well outside the European Union.

0:24:43 > 0:24:46We'll have our democracy back, we'll be in control of our immigration,

0:24:46 > 0:24:49we'll be able to do those trade deals with other countries,

0:24:49 > 0:24:51which is what the future of this country is really about.

0:24:51 > 0:24:54But sitting at that... APPLAUSE

0:24:57 > 0:25:00Sitting at Cabinet and hearing

0:25:00 > 0:25:03Philip Hammond on the one hand say...

0:25:03 > 0:25:05And Boris Johnson on the other, what does Theresa May

0:25:05 > 0:25:07make of it, in your opinion?

0:25:07 > 0:25:09I think she's finding it very difficult,

0:25:09 > 0:25:11but she's a very, very strong-minded,

0:25:11 > 0:25:13decent and principled person,

0:25:13 > 0:25:16who is absolutely devoted to her duty as a public servant,

0:25:16 > 0:25:18and I think the British people can see that.

0:25:18 > 0:25:22But where does she her duty lying as between these conflicting views?

0:25:22 > 0:25:26I think she sees her job, as chairman of the cabinet,

0:25:26 > 0:25:30to try and bring the voices together and instil a sense of direction,

0:25:30 > 0:25:31but let's face it -

0:25:31 > 0:25:34both the major political parties are very divided about this.

0:25:34 > 0:25:36This is why we had to have a referendum,

0:25:36 > 0:25:40because there was a kind of cosy consensus of the elite politicians,

0:25:40 > 0:25:42and in both political parties, there was dissent

0:25:42 > 0:25:44about the direction in which we were going,

0:25:44 > 0:25:46and the British people have distilled a decision.

0:25:46 > 0:25:48That's a real eye-opener.

0:25:48 > 0:25:50Sorry, but that shows that this is more about the parties,

0:25:50 > 0:25:53the two major Westminster parties sorting out their own problems,

0:25:53 > 0:25:56rather than putting the interests of the United Kingdom first.

0:25:56 > 0:25:59It was about giving a choice to the British people.

0:25:59 > 0:26:01OK, we'll just hear a couple more points.

0:26:01 > 0:26:04A lot has been said about the impact assessment.

0:26:04 > 0:26:09How could they sensibly be conducted when no-one knows at the moment

0:26:09 > 0:26:13whether we'd be part of a single market, a customs union,

0:26:13 > 0:26:18hard Brexit, a Canadian model, a Norwegian model, an EFTA model...?

0:26:18 > 0:26:20Or something else!

0:26:22 > 0:26:24It is weird, isn't it?

0:26:24 > 0:26:26Frankly, it is weird that we haven't done

0:26:26 > 0:26:28a proper assessment of the impact.

0:26:28 > 0:26:31Along the lines he's suggesting?

0:26:31 > 0:26:32But the entire British establishment

0:26:32 > 0:26:34was expecting the country to vote Remain.

0:26:34 > 0:26:37We've got 15 months to go before we're out, as things stand.

0:26:37 > 0:26:40The woman up there on the left, please. There.

0:26:40 > 0:26:45The EU has produced impact assessments covering every area.

0:26:45 > 0:26:47They've done it for 27 countries.

0:26:47 > 0:26:52The Dutch government has produced impact assessments.

0:26:52 > 0:26:58PricewaterhouseCoopers has produced impact assessments.

0:26:58 > 0:27:03There's eight, nine, ten other organisations to have done so.

0:27:04 > 0:27:07So if they can all do it, why can't our government?

0:27:07 > 0:27:12- I...- I suspect they have. - They've done it for all scenarios.

0:27:12 > 0:27:14OK. OK.

0:27:14 > 0:27:16Well, we shall see what happens with that question.

0:27:16 > 0:27:18Do you think the country, just to finish,

0:27:18 > 0:27:22is going to be richer or poorer, are individual people going to be richer

0:27:22 > 0:27:24or poorer when this whole thing is complete?

0:27:24 > 0:27:25Richard Bacon, what's your view?

0:27:25 > 0:27:27Er...I think in the end, poorer.

0:27:27 > 0:27:30I know Kate thinks that economists aren't very good at forecasting

0:27:30 > 0:27:33the future, but they were pretty clear that all independent

0:27:33 > 0:27:36economic bodies said it would be net negative for the economy,

0:27:36 > 0:27:38and I think if it's net negative for the economy,

0:27:38 > 0:27:41it's net negative for more or less everyone, so poorer.

0:27:41 > 0:27:44Sorry, the numbers that were released during the referendum

0:27:44 > 0:27:46suggested that people sitting in this audience were going to be

0:27:46 > 0:27:50£4,300, I believe it was, worse off, when they voted to leave.

0:27:50 > 0:27:53They suggested that the economy was going to shrink by 6%.

0:27:53 > 0:27:55Now, growth figures aren't fantastic,

0:27:55 > 0:27:57and there are a lot of reasons for this.

0:27:57 > 0:28:00Let's not forget that so many of our domestic policy issues,

0:28:00 > 0:28:04productivity, all of this, has nothing to do with the EU,

0:28:04 > 0:28:07and everything to do with policies set in Westminster by Westminster...

0:28:07 > 0:28:10Do you think we're going to be richer or poorer as a nation?

0:28:10 > 0:28:14I think you're going to be richer if you use the process of Brexit

0:28:14 > 0:28:17to be optimistic and try to pursue the best deals possible.

0:28:17 > 0:28:20But don't put statistics out into the air that,

0:28:20 > 0:28:22as the gentleman pointed out, you can't rely on,

0:28:22 > 0:28:25because there are just an indefinite number of variables.

0:28:25 > 0:28:27OK. Let's move on. APPLAUSE

0:28:31 > 0:28:34Just before we move on, there's a lot more to say about all that,

0:28:34 > 0:28:38and there will be as Question Time goes on through the year to come.

0:28:38 > 0:28:41But next Thursday, we're going to be in Barnsley,

0:28:41 > 0:28:44if you'd like to come to the Question Time edition there.

0:28:44 > 0:28:48Barnsley. Then there's a break until January, and we'll be in...

0:28:48 > 0:28:51My goodness, we're going to be in Islington!

0:28:51 > 0:28:53In London. LAUGHTER

0:28:53 > 0:28:55The politicians' home territory!

0:28:55 > 0:28:57- Momentum territory!- Some of them. - What?

0:28:57 > 0:29:02- Momentum territory.- There's many other people as well... Anyway.

0:29:02 > 0:29:06If you want to come either to Barnsley or Islington,

0:29:06 > 0:29:09on the screen now is how to apply, and we'll give those details

0:29:09 > 0:29:13at the end with the telephone numbers again.

0:29:13 > 0:29:15Let's have a question, please, from Tony Clark.

0:29:15 > 0:29:17Can we have your question? Tony.

0:29:17 > 0:29:18Hi.

0:29:18 > 0:29:22Is Donald Trump right to recognise Jerusalem as the capital of Israel?

0:29:22 > 0:29:24Yesterday's news. Kate Andrews.

0:29:24 > 0:29:27- So, my default position... - The only American on this panel.

0:29:27 > 0:29:30Yes, I am. My default position when it comes to the President

0:29:30 > 0:29:33is if he's said or done anything, I disagree with it.

0:29:33 > 0:29:35LAUGHTER AND APPLAUSE

0:29:40 > 0:29:42But now I'm going to get myself into a bit of trouble,

0:29:42 > 0:29:45because a broken clock is right twice a day,

0:29:45 > 0:29:47and I think the President is right

0:29:47 > 0:29:49to recognise Jerusalem as the capital of Israel.

0:29:49 > 0:29:52- This has been... - GRUMBLES AND SCATTERED APPLAUSE

0:29:52 > 0:29:53I'll tell you why.

0:29:53 > 0:29:56This has been American policy since 1995 -

0:29:56 > 0:30:00it was the Jerusalem Embassy Act, passed in 1995,

0:30:00 > 0:30:03from both parties, pretty unanimous.

0:30:03 > 0:30:06And every six months, the US President, Republican or Democrat,

0:30:06 > 0:30:10has been signing waivers to put off implementing this legislation,

0:30:10 > 0:30:12mostly for political reasons.

0:30:12 > 0:30:14It was as recently as June this year,

0:30:14 > 0:30:16during the Trump administration,

0:30:16 > 0:30:19that the Senate voted 90 to 0 - 90 to nil,

0:30:19 > 0:30:21Republicans and Democrats together,

0:30:21 > 0:30:25to prod the President to introduce this policy.

0:30:25 > 0:30:28Now he's done it, he has implemented what is across-the-board

0:30:28 > 0:30:31American policy, and I think it is the right decision,

0:30:31 > 0:30:33because we are living in a dream world if we think

0:30:33 > 0:30:37the two-state solution is going to result in a divided Jerusalem.

0:30:37 > 0:30:40It is almost certainly not going to do that,

0:30:40 > 0:30:43and I hope that this can actually help move a peace process,

0:30:43 > 0:30:46which is not active at the moment in any way, forward.

0:30:46 > 0:30:50The last thing I would say is that the hatred of Qatar

0:30:50 > 0:30:52or the threats of Hamas should not be part

0:30:52 > 0:30:57of determining foreign policy in the UK or the US or anywhere else.

0:30:57 > 0:30:59APPLAUSE

0:31:00 > 0:31:03Richard Bacon. You live in the US now. What's your view?

0:31:03 > 0:31:05Yeah. I do, and...

0:31:05 > 0:31:08I think a couple of things. First of all, um...

0:31:08 > 0:31:11Theresa May has said this will make peace harder,

0:31:11 > 0:31:14President Abbas has said this marks the end of the peace process,

0:31:14 > 0:31:17Hamas has said they'll unleash hell, and the Pope said it was a mistake.

0:31:17 > 0:31:19And Donald Trump listened to none of those...

0:31:19 > 0:31:21- Why would you listen to... - Let him answer.

0:31:21 > 0:31:24You listen to different voices...

0:31:24 > 0:31:25- Not terrorists.- Well, OK...

0:31:25 > 0:31:26That's true.

0:31:26 > 0:31:29I was just telling you different views have been expressed today.

0:31:29 > 0:31:31But do you think, when you look at Donald Trump's pattern

0:31:31 > 0:31:34of behaviour, even if you think this is the right thing, do you think

0:31:34 > 0:31:37that he is a great statesman who carefully weighed up the evidence...

0:31:37 > 0:31:40- No!- ..listened to different voices and reached a rational decision?

0:31:40 > 0:31:43- Of course not!- Of course not! He listened to his son-in-law,

0:31:43 > 0:31:46another property developer from New York, who made this decision.

0:31:46 > 0:31:49Here's what I would say, living in Trump's America right now, is...

0:31:49 > 0:31:53Just in the last ten days, when he re-tweeted the anti-Muslim videos,

0:31:53 > 0:31:56he's claimed that the Access Hollywood tape is fake,

0:31:56 > 0:31:58he's pushed through a tax bill in the Senate

0:31:58 > 0:32:01along with Mitch McConnell and Paul Ryan, which nobody had read,

0:32:01 > 0:32:04and will take 13 million people out of health care,

0:32:04 > 0:32:06and it's given me a real appreciation

0:32:06 > 0:32:08of the United Kingdom and of our politicians here,

0:32:08 > 0:32:10and whatever you think of them,

0:32:10 > 0:32:13if you take Theresa May or Ed Miliband or Gordon Brown

0:32:13 > 0:32:16or even David Cameron - are they, whether you like them or not,

0:32:16 > 0:32:19are they hard-working, well-meaning people,

0:32:19 > 0:32:22trying hard to do the right thing?

0:32:22 > 0:32:25You've picked three who aren't around any more!

0:32:25 > 0:32:27I just mean by referencing party leaders,

0:32:27 > 0:32:30but I would say generally, with politicians

0:32:30 > 0:32:32and those around this table, that in the end it's given me

0:32:32 > 0:32:35an appreciation of this country, and I think that...

0:32:35 > 0:32:37we're better than them.

0:32:37 > 0:32:38Liz Saville Roberts.

0:32:38 > 0:32:40APPLAUSE

0:32:42 > 0:32:46Was he right to recognise Jerusalem as the capital of Israel?

0:32:46 > 0:32:49It appears to be only interpretable

0:32:49 > 0:32:54as a deliberately incendiary act that is aimed principally

0:32:54 > 0:32:58at a home audience, without due consideration that he has now...

0:32:58 > 0:33:02There is violence on the occupied West Bank,

0:33:02 > 0:33:04probably as we speak, certainly today.

0:33:04 > 0:33:08There is violence increased because of this action in the Middle East.

0:33:08 > 0:33:12That then increases the risk here of terrorism activity in Europe.

0:33:12 > 0:33:15It will increase the risk of terrorism activity in the USA,

0:33:15 > 0:33:20and any president who acts in such a way as to endanger his own people,

0:33:20 > 0:33:22as well as other people in the world,

0:33:22 > 0:33:24is frankly not fit for public office.

0:33:24 > 0:33:26APPLAUSE

0:33:28 > 0:33:30You, sir, in the middle there. Yes.

0:33:32 > 0:33:37I totally agree that it's going to cause further problems

0:33:37 > 0:33:39in the Middle East and the wider region.

0:33:39 > 0:33:42It also legitimises...

0:33:42 > 0:33:47you know, the illegal occupation of the West Bank, as well.

0:33:49 > 0:33:52- So you see no merit... - I see no merit in it whatsoever.

0:33:52 > 0:33:54Bernard Jenkin, do you?

0:33:54 > 0:33:59I'm afraid I'm more in agreement with Liz than Kate in this.

0:33:59 > 0:34:01I mean, if there was evidence

0:34:01 > 0:34:07that President Trump did very subtle, strategic thinking,

0:34:07 > 0:34:09long-term...

0:34:09 > 0:34:11LAUGHTER

0:34:11 > 0:34:13..then one could perhaps believe

0:34:13 > 0:34:17that this is part of a beginning of some kind of new process

0:34:17 > 0:34:20that's meant to jump-start some talks or something.

0:34:20 > 0:34:23I can't see that. I think this is not a solution,

0:34:23 > 0:34:28it is provocation, and we do want process, and not provocation.

0:34:28 > 0:34:29The really dangerous...

0:34:29 > 0:34:33The really dangerous thing is that this feeds the narrative

0:34:33 > 0:34:35that is a recruiting sergeant for Isis, terrorism...

0:34:35 > 0:34:37Exactly.

0:34:37 > 0:34:38..for Muslim fundamentalism,

0:34:38 > 0:34:42because the narrative around the West supporting Israel is,

0:34:42 > 0:34:46I'm afraid, part of the narrative that we are somehow

0:34:46 > 0:34:49interfering in their world, we are taking over their lands,

0:34:49 > 0:34:51interfering in their countries,

0:34:51 > 0:34:54and I'm afraid I think this is going to...

0:34:54 > 0:34:57I mean, we've already seen the violence on the television...

0:34:57 > 0:35:00Can I quickly jump in and say that Trump did not make this decision

0:35:00 > 0:35:01because of his son-in-law.

0:35:01 > 0:35:03The Senate instructed him to do this as recently as June.

0:35:03 > 0:35:05That is an American institution,

0:35:05 > 0:35:08so before we just go around saying that Trump is speaking

0:35:08 > 0:35:09to his cronies, let's remember,

0:35:09 > 0:35:11when you are pushing back on this decision,

0:35:11 > 0:35:14you're pushing back on American institutions, which is fine, but...

0:35:14 > 0:35:17The US Presidents have pushed back on it since 1995.

0:35:17 > 0:35:20Yes, my bigger point is I'm very uncomfortable with this idea

0:35:20 > 0:35:24that the violence that is coming up around the world is...

0:35:24 > 0:35:28I know you're not saying it's justified, but the assumption here

0:35:28 > 0:35:32is that if the West didn't do X, then people would be less violent,

0:35:32 > 0:35:35and I'm very concerned about that kind of rhetoric.

0:35:35 > 0:35:37All right, hold on, everybody.

0:35:37 > 0:35:39Thank you. Owen Smith.

0:35:39 > 0:35:41I think it's terrifying,

0:35:41 > 0:35:45and it pains me to say it, but the leader of one of our greatest,

0:35:45 > 0:35:48most long-standing allies, is, I'm afraid to say, a bully

0:35:48 > 0:35:50and a bigot, and someone who has made,

0:35:50 > 0:35:53I think an extraordinarily crass intervention

0:35:53 > 0:35:57in a part of the world that we know is incredibly difficult

0:35:57 > 0:35:59and delicately balanced.

0:35:59 > 0:36:02We've got violence on the screens of our televisions tonight

0:36:02 > 0:36:05as a direct consequence of this intervention

0:36:05 > 0:36:07by the President of the US.

0:36:07 > 0:36:10Kate says he's been instructed to do it.

0:36:10 > 0:36:14- This vote was taken initially in 1995...- And as recently as June.

0:36:14 > 0:36:17And successive US presidents,

0:36:17 > 0:36:20mindful of the fact that America has a massively important role

0:36:20 > 0:36:23to play as a neutral broker in the Middle East,

0:36:23 > 0:36:26have chosen not to take this step

0:36:26 > 0:36:28And Donald Trump, like a bull in a china shop,

0:36:28 > 0:36:31like the way he approaches everything,

0:36:31 > 0:36:34has charged in in order to feed his base and make good

0:36:34 > 0:36:36on one of the other crass promises he made

0:36:36 > 0:36:38during his leadership contest.

0:36:38 > 0:36:42And he has, unfortunately, I think, destroyed America's ability

0:36:42 > 0:36:45to engage under his presidency, and do what we need them to do,

0:36:45 > 0:36:48which is to help bring about peace in the Middle East.

0:36:48 > 0:36:52The woman up there, third row. The woman in the middle. Yes.

0:36:52 > 0:36:57- Let's hear from you.- I just wanted to actually lead on from that.

0:36:57 > 0:37:01If American presidents haven't been kind of declaring

0:37:01 > 0:37:06their support for Jerusalem being Israel's,

0:37:06 > 0:37:09why is it that Trump's done that now, as in,

0:37:09 > 0:37:12if... Like you said, why now?

0:37:12 > 0:37:14There's just... It doesn't...

0:37:15 > 0:37:20I don't understand personally, and I hope you can explain this more.

0:37:20 > 0:37:22Why would he do this?

0:37:22 > 0:37:24Why would he potentially cause further violence,

0:37:24 > 0:37:28why would he potentially cause a further divide -

0:37:28 > 0:37:31a divide that is just not necessary in such a divided world?

0:37:31 > 0:37:33Is it possible that he's partly

0:37:33 > 0:37:35- distracting from the Robert Mueller investigation?- Maybe.

0:37:35 > 0:37:38I think it's because it's one of the foolish things

0:37:38 > 0:37:39he promised during the election,

0:37:39 > 0:37:42and he seems determined to make good on all of those crazy things.

0:37:42 > 0:37:45He'll be genuinely building a wall next.

0:37:45 > 0:37:48I think Owen is right, that this is basically an election promise.

0:37:48 > 0:37:51I have... As I said, a broken clock is right twice a day -

0:37:51 > 0:37:54I happen to think that in this case, he is moving forward with

0:37:54 > 0:37:57- what American institutions have been calling for for decades.- All right.

0:37:57 > 0:38:00None of this changes the fact that he is an incredibly dangerous

0:38:00 > 0:38:03and bigoted man, but in terms of this particular topic,

0:38:03 > 0:38:06I think we have to see the wood for the trees.

0:38:06 > 0:38:09The man up there, then we'll go on to another question. Yes.

0:38:09 > 0:38:13I think it's crazy somehow of Kate Andrews to suggest

0:38:13 > 0:38:16that because she can't see a two-state solution in Palestine,

0:38:16 > 0:38:18that we should just hand over the land...

0:38:18 > 0:38:21- No, I can. No, sorry - I can. - Let him make his point.

0:38:21 > 0:38:23..when Jews, Christians and Muslims

0:38:23 > 0:38:25have been living in Jerusalem for centuries together,

0:38:25 > 0:38:29that somehow, we should legitimise the state of Israel,

0:38:29 > 0:38:32and delegitimise the state of Palestine,

0:38:32 > 0:38:36when Muslims have lived in Jerusalem for centuries,

0:38:36 > 0:38:40peacefully and harmoniously with Israelis...

0:38:40 > 0:38:45It's just crazy how the US can continue to support Israel,

0:38:45 > 0:38:49when it's been stealing land from the Palestinians for decades,

0:38:49 > 0:38:53stolen land from other countries, and now it's stealing Jerusalem.

0:38:53 > 0:38:56- Thank you.- I... - No, it's all right, Kate.

0:38:57 > 0:38:59We must move on to another question.

0:38:59 > 0:39:03Morgan Davies Walker, let's have your question. Morgan.

0:39:03 > 0:39:05After the mass resignation of all members

0:39:05 > 0:39:07of the Social Mobility Committee,

0:39:07 > 0:39:10does the panel think that social class is still relevant today?

0:39:10 > 0:39:13The mass resignation, on Sunday, I think it was,

0:39:13 > 0:39:15of the Social Mobility Committee

0:39:15 > 0:39:17that was in protest against

0:39:17 > 0:39:21"Little evidence of meaningful action on social mobility,"

0:39:21 > 0:39:23and they all resigned, both parties,

0:39:23 > 0:39:26led by Alan Milburn of Labour - they all resigned together.

0:39:26 > 0:39:29The question is, does the panel think social class

0:39:29 > 0:39:33is still relevant, given what they've asserted. Richard Bacon.

0:39:33 > 0:39:36Yes, it definitely is still relevant.

0:39:36 > 0:39:38Social class has I think as big a...

0:39:38 > 0:39:42Is as big a determinant now of where you end up

0:39:42 > 0:39:45and how rich you end up as it has ever been.

0:39:45 > 0:39:47I don't want to make the entire thing about Brexit,

0:39:47 > 0:39:50but as a side note, Alan Milburn said that when they resigned,

0:39:50 > 0:39:52he resigned from this committee, it was partly a sense

0:39:52 > 0:39:54that it's not that the Government doesn't believe in this -

0:39:54 > 0:39:57of course they do, and of course they want to do something about it -

0:39:57 > 0:39:59but so much energy has gone towards Brexit

0:39:59 > 0:40:03that there's not been enough energy put in towards this.

0:40:03 > 0:40:06But when you look at the top of almost all major professions,

0:40:06 > 0:40:08and you look at universities like Oxford,

0:40:08 > 0:40:10that are taking in more kids from state schools,

0:40:10 > 0:40:13but I think it's still around 40% that are from private school,

0:40:13 > 0:40:17and only 7% of the population go to private school.

0:40:17 > 0:40:20I think social class remains as big an issue

0:40:20 > 0:40:22in the United Kingdom as it's ever been.

0:40:22 > 0:40:24OK. APPLAUSE

0:40:26 > 0:40:27Bernard Jenkin.

0:40:27 > 0:40:31Well, of course, social mobility is very important.

0:40:31 > 0:40:33But I just hazard a guess - how many people in this room

0:40:33 > 0:40:36had ever heard of the Social Mobility Commission?

0:40:36 > 0:40:39- But that's not...- OK, A few.

0:40:39 > 0:40:41- She had.- A few, but, I mean, a tiny handful.

0:40:41 > 0:40:42The fact is, what really matters,

0:40:42 > 0:40:45what really creates social mobility, is economic success.

0:40:45 > 0:40:48It's having the highest rates of employment in this country

0:40:48 > 0:40:52that we've ever had, the lowest rate of unemployment for 40 years.

0:40:52 > 0:40:5787% of children in England, I am afraid to say - not in Wales -

0:40:57 > 0:40:59are now attending good or outstanding schools.

0:40:59 > 0:41:02There's just been some announcements about literacy in schools,

0:41:02 > 0:41:06the introduction of phonics in schools has had a dramatic effect

0:41:06 > 0:41:09on the reading ability of seven-year-olds.

0:41:09 > 0:41:10- You mentioned universities.- Mm.

0:41:10 > 0:41:13There are more people from deprived backgrounds

0:41:13 > 0:41:16going into universities than ever before.

0:41:16 > 0:41:18This is real social mobility.

0:41:18 > 0:41:20The introduction of the National Living Wage has raised...

0:41:20 > 0:41:23So why did all these people resign, saying that the Government

0:41:23 > 0:41:26is doing nothing about it, including Tories, not just Labour?

0:41:26 > 0:41:28I think it's the fashion of having these commissions

0:41:28 > 0:41:31and these tsars - they're a bit of a talking shop.

0:41:31 > 0:41:34- They don't actually do anything - they just discuss things.- All right.

0:41:34 > 0:41:37And I think governments getting on with stuff is much more important.

0:41:37 > 0:41:41APPLAUSE

0:41:41 > 0:41:43Too many experts, Owen?

0:41:43 > 0:41:45Yeah, a little bit too much, too many experts,

0:41:45 > 0:41:47let's just get on with the job.

0:41:47 > 0:41:50Brexiteers have never been keen on the experts, as we know.

0:41:50 > 0:41:53Well, the experts are so often wrong, that's why.

0:41:53 > 0:41:55Well, in this case, one of the experts

0:41:55 > 0:41:57was one of your former colleagues, Gillian Shephard,

0:41:57 > 0:41:59who was a Tory Education Secretary for many, many years,

0:41:59 > 0:42:03and she resigned as part of this mass resignation,

0:42:03 > 0:42:04putting her name to...

0:42:04 > 0:42:07You make it sound like some kind of political earthquake.

0:42:07 > 0:42:09I'm afraid it really doesn't matter very much.

0:42:09 > 0:42:13- Bernard...- Well, it matters to the questioner. Bring in Morgan.

0:42:13 > 0:42:15- Can I just finish?- No, let Morgan...

0:42:15 > 0:42:18- Does it matter to you, Morgan? - Should matter.- Where is he?

0:42:18 > 0:42:19Morgan.

0:42:19 > 0:42:22Um...I think that acknowledging social class

0:42:22 > 0:42:25could be an important way to address the fact that some people

0:42:25 > 0:42:29start from a position of privilege, and some people don't.

0:42:29 > 0:42:32- I wish we'd just stop talking about class.- Why?- Class isn't important.

0:42:32 > 0:42:34That's because you haven't faced the oppression...

0:42:34 > 0:42:36It doesn't matter where you've come from -

0:42:36 > 0:42:38we should provide a country with opportunities.

0:42:38 > 0:42:39Morgan, you tell him...

0:42:39 > 0:42:42It's easy for you to say that we shouldn't talk about social class,

0:42:42 > 0:42:45because you haven't had to experience the oppression

0:42:45 > 0:42:47and the hardship that people

0:42:47 > 0:42:49that are in the lower social classes have faced.

0:42:49 > 0:42:51What I'm in politics for...

0:42:51 > 0:42:53- APPLAUSE - What I'm in politics for...

0:42:54 > 0:42:57- ..is to give more people more opportunities.- Owen.

0:42:57 > 0:42:59Not to hold grudges about class.

0:42:59 > 0:43:00Owen, I interrupted you.

0:43:00 > 0:43:04I can't remember whether Bernard owns a castle or not, but...

0:43:04 > 0:43:07- Oh, come on!- I think it's quite big. - I think class jibes are cheap.

0:43:07 > 0:43:09Well, I think the reality, Bernard,

0:43:09 > 0:43:12is the reason this is such a big story

0:43:12 > 0:43:17is your Prime Minister, Theresa May, stood on the steps of Downing Street

0:43:17 > 0:43:20upon assuming the Prime Minister job in this country,

0:43:20 > 0:43:23and said that she thought social mobility

0:43:23 > 0:43:25and solving the problems we've got socially...

0:43:25 > 0:43:26And look - she's achieving it.

0:43:26 > 0:43:29..was the biggest challenge she faced,

0:43:29 > 0:43:32and the biggest thing she was determined to fix,

0:43:32 > 0:43:34and to have her appointees -

0:43:34 > 0:43:37the people who sit on the very commission that's designed to

0:43:37 > 0:43:40measure whether she's achieving that objective - resign because

0:43:40 > 0:43:44they think she's failing on every objective measure, is, I think,

0:43:44 > 0:43:46a really damning indictment of your government.

0:43:46 > 0:43:48I think this is a storm in a Westminster teacup.

0:43:48 > 0:43:52400,000 more children are in absolute poverty in this country

0:43:52 > 0:43:53under the Tories.

0:43:53 > 0:43:55Oh, come on. I'm going to call you out on those figures.

0:43:55 > 0:43:58They are missing every single target. It's a disaster, Bernard,

0:43:58 > 0:44:00- and the reason people... - APPLAUSE

0:44:00 > 0:44:02It's a disaster!

0:44:02 > 0:44:03Liz.

0:44:03 > 0:44:09We cannot be on Question Time here this evening in Swansea, in Wales...

0:44:09 > 0:44:12Swansea has not had any announcement on the tidal lagoon,

0:44:12 > 0:44:14there is not an inch...

0:44:14 > 0:44:15APPLAUSE

0:44:15 > 0:44:19An inch of of electrification on the railways in Wales...

0:44:19 > 0:44:22APPLAUSE

0:44:22 > 0:44:24Of the devolved nations,

0:44:24 > 0:44:27Wales receives the poorest level of funding.

0:44:27 > 0:44:30We are seeing a situation where the south-east is overheating,

0:44:30 > 0:44:34and yet HS2 is designed to draw more people into the south-east.

0:44:34 > 0:44:37- Hear, hear!- And London is funded more than Wales per head...

0:44:37 > 0:44:41Hang on, we're talking about social class, can you come to that?

0:44:41 > 0:44:43I'm talking about regional equality.

0:44:43 > 0:44:45But the question was about social class.

0:44:45 > 0:44:48And regional equality and social class will be intimately entwined,

0:44:48 > 0:44:49and I would remind, though,

0:44:49 > 0:44:53that in Wales, it is Labour who have been responsible for education,

0:44:53 > 0:44:56and if that is our route out, we need to develop it.

0:44:56 > 0:44:58- Quite right.- OK.

0:44:58 > 0:45:00Kate Andrews.

0:45:00 > 0:45:02I agree with Richard and Morgan

0:45:02 > 0:45:04that social class needs to be discussed more.

0:45:04 > 0:45:06We often talk about gender discrimination,

0:45:06 > 0:45:09and the ways that women in particular struggle

0:45:09 > 0:45:11to move up the ladder, but I think that social class

0:45:11 > 0:45:13is really just as strong of an argument.

0:45:13 > 0:45:16But let's talk about what we can actually DO about this.

0:45:16 > 0:45:19I mean, housing costs, particularly in England,

0:45:19 > 0:45:22but across the board, are incredibly restrictive

0:45:22 > 0:45:25in terms of who can access getting on the housing ladder.

0:45:25 > 0:45:27Let's liberalise the planning system,

0:45:27 > 0:45:29and bring the cost of housing down.

0:45:29 > 0:45:30Electricity costs,

0:45:30 > 0:45:34in England and Wales, over the past two decades, have risen by 50%

0:45:34 > 0:45:35because of onerous regulation.

0:45:35 > 0:45:37We can tackle that.

0:45:37 > 0:45:41Childcare costs are some of the highest in the OECD here in the UK.

0:45:41 > 0:45:44We can tackle that, we can make policy changes to put it forward,

0:45:44 > 0:45:48but Richard was right - we do have this issue of a Brexit black hole,

0:45:48 > 0:45:51where these issues that can be decided now in Westminster

0:45:51 > 0:45:52get pushed to the back burner

0:45:52 > 0:45:54because we can only talk about Brexit.

0:45:54 > 0:45:56We need to be having this conversation,

0:45:56 > 0:45:59and that will help tackle the issue of social class.

0:45:59 > 0:46:00The woman in the second row there, yes.

0:46:02 > 0:46:05Can I go back to what Bernard said?

0:46:05 > 0:46:08You gave a percentage, 80+% for England.

0:46:08 > 0:46:11It concerns me that you haven't got a percentage for Wales,

0:46:11 > 0:46:13and even on the news yesterday,

0:46:13 > 0:46:16there was a lot about education in Wales...

0:46:16 > 0:46:18What was the percentage about?

0:46:18 > 0:46:2087, was it? 87%, you gave?

0:46:20 > 0:46:2287% for England, I'm afraid...

0:46:22 > 0:46:24- Percentage of what?- 87% of...

0:46:24 > 0:46:27You've lost it in your paperwork.

0:46:27 > 0:46:30..children are now attending good or outstanding schools.

0:46:30 > 0:46:32I'm afraid that's a much better percentage than in Wales.

0:46:32 > 0:46:34So what is it for Wales?

0:46:34 > 0:46:37And why is it not more concern and money being put into Wales?

0:46:37 > 0:46:40I'm afraid the Labour Party run education in Wales,

0:46:40 > 0:46:43and they've not been making the reforms we have in England.

0:46:43 > 0:46:46We've just increased spending on education in Wales,

0:46:46 > 0:46:49whereas you've cut capital spending in education at the Budget.

0:46:49 > 0:46:52It hasn't... It hasn't increased, has it?

0:46:52 > 0:46:53It's gone down.

0:46:53 > 0:46:56£300 per pupil, it's gone down.

0:46:56 > 0:46:58The woman in the third row.

0:46:58 > 0:46:59Let's hear from you.

0:46:59 > 0:47:02I was interested to find out what your plan is

0:47:02 > 0:47:06to replace all of the funding that we used to get in South Wales

0:47:06 > 0:47:09for our most deprived areas through the European Social Fund.

0:47:09 > 0:47:10APPLAUSE

0:47:12 > 0:47:13You missed the...

0:47:13 > 0:47:15The European Social Fund were the last three words.

0:47:15 > 0:47:17From the European Social Fund

0:47:17 > 0:47:19and the European Regional and Structural funds,

0:47:19 > 0:47:21there will be a UK Prosperity Fund.

0:47:21 > 0:47:24Because once we've left the EU and are free of the payments to the EU,

0:47:24 > 0:47:27we will actually have more money to spend in this country

0:47:27 > 0:47:28than we had before.

0:47:28 > 0:47:31We will no longer be making a net contribution to the European Union.

0:47:31 > 0:47:35And there is no tradition of addressing inequality in the UK.

0:47:35 > 0:47:36You must speak one at a time,

0:47:36 > 0:47:38otherwise nobody can hear what either says.

0:47:38 > 0:47:40- ..the Budget gave an extra 1.2 billion to Wales.- OK.

0:47:40 > 0:47:42Thank you very much.

0:47:42 > 0:47:45I'm going to move on, because we've only got ten minutes or so left.

0:47:45 > 0:47:46Martin...

0:47:46 > 0:47:49Martin Hennes, is it? Yes. Martin, please.

0:47:49 > 0:47:53Should we allow anybody who has fought with Isis

0:47:53 > 0:47:54back into the country?

0:47:54 > 0:47:57Isis was mentioned when we were talking about Jerusalem,

0:47:57 > 0:48:00and of course we had the new Defence Secretary saying,

0:48:00 > 0:48:03"A dead terrorist can't cause any harm to Britain -

0:48:03 > 0:48:06"we must continue to hunt them down."

0:48:06 > 0:48:10Owen Smith. Should we allow anybody who's fought for Isis back here?

0:48:11 > 0:48:15Well, I think Gavin Williams, the new Defence Secretary -

0:48:15 > 0:48:18I don't know whether he was trying to just get a good headline

0:48:18 > 0:48:22in the Daily Mail, but I did think it was a very immature

0:48:22 > 0:48:26and slightly silly thing for him to say,

0:48:26 > 0:48:29to suggest that we are effectively going to hunt down

0:48:29 > 0:48:33and kill, or apparently kill people, if they come back to this country...

0:48:33 > 0:48:36- No, he didn't say that - come on. - I think that was the implication.

0:48:36 > 0:48:39- No, it wasn't.- What he actually said was....- You're being a twit.

0:48:39 > 0:48:42LAUGHTER AND BOOING

0:48:42 > 0:48:44I think Gavin was being a twit when he said what he said.

0:48:44 > 0:48:46I don't think he said he'd kill them in this country.

0:48:46 > 0:48:50I think the implication of it was that they were going to be killed

0:48:50 > 0:48:52wherever they were in the world, I think that's precisely what...

0:48:52 > 0:48:54And that was precisely the policy

0:48:54 > 0:48:57of your government when you were in office before 2010.

0:48:57 > 0:48:59Sorry, what was precisely...?

0:48:59 > 0:49:00It was precisely the policy.

0:49:00 > 0:49:03You were using drones to kill terrorists,

0:49:03 > 0:49:05even if they were British.

0:49:05 > 0:49:08If they had sworn allegiance to another state,

0:49:08 > 0:49:11or to something like Isis, they were going to get...

0:49:11 > 0:49:13And I have nothing to object to there.

0:49:13 > 0:49:17I think the reality is that if people are joining Isis,

0:49:17 > 0:49:20and targeting British interests or British citizens,

0:49:20 > 0:49:23they are legitimate targets, and they are, you know,

0:49:23 > 0:49:26in danger, wherever they are, to be killed.

0:49:26 > 0:49:29Should they be allowed back into this country, was the question.

0:49:29 > 0:49:31Well, crucially, you can't deny people statehood,

0:49:31 > 0:49:34can you, so if you are for example someone who's gone to fight

0:49:34 > 0:49:36- in Syria and then... - PEOPLE MUTTER

0:49:36 > 0:49:39Because legally, it's incredibly difficult to tell someone

0:49:39 > 0:49:41that they are suddenly stateless.

0:49:41 > 0:49:44- That of course implies that... - Wait a second, wait a second...

0:49:44 > 0:49:47..they need to stay in another country, or go somewhere else.

0:49:47 > 0:49:51So it's a glib sound bite, which is why it was a very silly thing

0:49:51 > 0:49:54for someone in a very serious position to say.

0:49:54 > 0:49:56We aren't going to assassinate people upon coming back

0:49:56 > 0:49:57to this country.

0:49:57 > 0:50:01Are we going to assassinate people if they go to Turkey,

0:50:01 > 0:50:03or other places where some of the people

0:50:03 > 0:50:04who've fought in Syria have gone?

0:50:04 > 0:50:06I don't think we are.

0:50:06 > 0:50:08And equally, if people have laid down their arms,

0:50:08 > 0:50:10and want to come back to this country,

0:50:10 > 0:50:11we should arrest them,

0:50:11 > 0:50:14they should go through due process, and we should rely on the law

0:50:14 > 0:50:17to make sure that it that it looks after people, not assassination.

0:50:17 > 0:50:21- Martin, what was in the back of your mind?- Well, on my mind...

0:50:21 > 0:50:24If I can protect my family, or anybody else's family,

0:50:24 > 0:50:26I would do anything.

0:50:26 > 0:50:30I would not lose a moment's sleep over any of them taken out anywhere.

0:50:30 > 0:50:31APPLAUSE But hang on...

0:50:33 > 0:50:36What about when they come back? To Britain?

0:50:36 > 0:50:39- Don't allow them back through the borders.- And do what with them?

0:50:39 > 0:50:42Just... They can go wherever they like,

0:50:42 > 0:50:45but they're not coming back into this country to make more trouble.

0:50:45 > 0:50:48We have enough trouble with the ones we've got here.

0:50:48 > 0:50:51Those who have voluntarily gone to another country,

0:50:51 > 0:50:52they don't come back.

0:50:52 > 0:50:55- Bernard Jenkin?- Well, Martin, I do lose sleep over it,

0:50:55 > 0:51:00but I think the problem is that, particularly the English,

0:51:00 > 0:51:04the British people that go out to support Isis,

0:51:04 > 0:51:08they actually do renounce their allegiance to this country.

0:51:08 > 0:51:10They deny their citizenship of this country,

0:51:10 > 0:51:12and if they have renounced their citizenship,

0:51:12 > 0:51:16there comes a point when we're no longer responsible for them,

0:51:16 > 0:51:20and if somebody wants to come back, and says,

0:51:20 > 0:51:24"I have really turned", I mean, there is a difficult problem for us.

0:51:24 > 0:51:27But I'm afraid, while they're out there, the danger is,

0:51:27 > 0:51:32thousands have come back from these war zones intending to do us harm,

0:51:32 > 0:51:37and it's all very well applying ultra-human rights and civil justice

0:51:37 > 0:51:40to these people as though they were just ordinary criminals.

0:51:40 > 0:51:43They're not - we are at war with these terrorists.

0:51:43 > 0:51:45Sorry, no, hang on a second.

0:51:45 > 0:51:48They should be arrested and incarcerated and processed.

0:51:48 > 0:51:50What are you saying should happen?

0:51:50 > 0:51:53Because you're obviously taking a different view from Owen.

0:51:53 > 0:51:59In the end, we are still developing the law of conflict,

0:51:59 > 0:52:03international conflict, where we are dealing with non-state actors.

0:52:03 > 0:52:09Sorry, take as an example somebody who goes from a town in Britain -

0:52:09 > 0:52:12we won't name one - has been out, fought in Syria,

0:52:12 > 0:52:15and then comes back and arrives at the airport.

0:52:15 > 0:52:16What would you do then?

0:52:16 > 0:52:19- You're saying they don't have statehood?- Clearly, they are a risk.

0:52:19 > 0:52:21But you're saying they've relinquished their statehood?

0:52:21 > 0:52:23And they have... If they've been fighting for Isis,

0:52:23 > 0:52:26they have effectively relinquished their statehood.

0:52:26 > 0:52:28And what would you do with them, then - send them where?

0:52:28 > 0:52:30- Guantanamo Bay? What do you do? - It's a big problem.

0:52:30 > 0:52:33Well, you don't want to finish up with a legal black hole

0:52:33 > 0:52:34- like Guantanamo Bay...- Quite.

0:52:34 > 0:52:38We put control orders on them, or whatever they're called now...

0:52:38 > 0:52:40That's what I've just argued.

0:52:40 > 0:52:44We track them, we incarcerate them sometimes...

0:52:44 > 0:52:46But you ARE allowing them back.

0:52:46 > 0:52:48You started saying you wouldn't allow them back,

0:52:48 > 0:52:49and now you say you would.

0:52:49 > 0:52:51We try not to let them in in the first place,

0:52:51 > 0:52:53try and stop them coming back in the first place.

0:52:53 > 0:52:54If you go to fight,

0:52:54 > 0:52:57if you leave the town you referred to there and go to fight in Syria,

0:52:57 > 0:52:59you know what you're doing, and you have rejected British values.

0:52:59 > 0:53:02- There is no question about that. - That's exactly right.

0:53:02 > 0:53:04I think that alone is evidence of terrorism.

0:53:04 > 0:53:07And I don't support killing British citizens abroad with drones,

0:53:07 > 0:53:09which is what was proposed.

0:53:09 > 0:53:11I don't understand how our government,

0:53:11 > 0:53:13passionately against the death penalty,

0:53:13 > 0:53:15can be in favour of using drones.

0:53:15 > 0:53:17I think when you come back to the country, you've been to Syria,

0:53:17 > 0:53:19that's evidence of terrorism.

0:53:19 > 0:53:22- It's not a death penalty, it is a conflict.- What, the drones aren't?

0:53:22 > 0:53:24- They are in a conflict. - Let me finish the point.

0:53:24 > 0:53:26It's not a death penalty.

0:53:26 > 0:53:29But I think you charge them, and attempt to put them in prison,

0:53:29 > 0:53:32and I think this point about "a dead terrorist can't cause us any harm" -

0:53:32 > 0:53:34actually, dead terrorists inspire martyrs,

0:53:34 > 0:53:37and I think dead terrorists can cause more harm

0:53:37 > 0:53:39than a living terrorist in prison.

0:53:39 > 0:53:40Liz.

0:53:40 > 0:53:43Why do we think that meeting barbarism with barbarism

0:53:43 > 0:53:46will result in civilising?

0:53:46 > 0:53:48Let's go back to the Second World War.

0:53:48 > 0:53:51The Nuremberg trials realised that to bring peace,

0:53:51 > 0:53:53you must bring justice.

0:53:53 > 0:53:56We will have blood feuds forever in the Middle East

0:53:56 > 0:53:57unless we bring peace.

0:53:57 > 0:53:58We will have martyrs back here,

0:53:58 > 0:54:01it will be an incentive for people back here,

0:54:01 > 0:54:05and let us remember that in 2007, Safer Neighbourhood teams of police

0:54:05 > 0:54:08had six officers working in London.

0:54:08 > 0:54:12Now, in Manchester, the murderer in Manchester was on the police radar.

0:54:12 > 0:54:15We need to enforce our community policing

0:54:15 > 0:54:18to make sure that we keep ourselves safe...

0:54:18 > 0:54:21And would you allow anybody who's fought back into this country,

0:54:21 > 0:54:24which was the question that was asked? Just briefly.

0:54:24 > 0:54:26I have done work with the Yazidi community,

0:54:26 > 0:54:30and they need to have justice done, for those women who were raped,

0:54:30 > 0:54:32who saw their brothers and sons and husbands murdered,

0:54:32 > 0:54:34we, as an international community,

0:54:34 > 0:54:36with the International Criminal Court,

0:54:36 > 0:54:38have a duty of justice for those people.

0:54:38 > 0:54:40- Kate Andrews. - Liz is completely right.

0:54:40 > 0:54:43What separates everyone sitting in this room today

0:54:43 > 0:54:45from the people who go off and fight for Isis,

0:54:45 > 0:54:47who target children and rape women,

0:54:47 > 0:54:51is that we respect human rights, and we respect the rule of law.

0:54:51 > 0:54:53And if they don't make it back to Britain,

0:54:53 > 0:54:56we're not going to shed a tear for them, but if they do,

0:54:56 > 0:54:58they should be brought in, they should be tried,

0:54:58 > 0:55:01they should have due process, they should feel the full weight

0:55:01 > 0:55:03of their decisions on their shoulders,

0:55:03 > 0:55:05- and they should be locked up for life.- OK.

0:55:06 > 0:55:08Right, last... Um,

0:55:08 > 0:55:10Joshua.

0:55:10 > 0:55:12Joshua Baynon.

0:55:12 > 0:55:14Last quick question, Joshua.

0:55:14 > 0:55:16Does the panel envisage another general election

0:55:16 > 0:55:18within the next six months?

0:55:18 > 0:55:19LAUGHTER

0:55:19 > 0:55:22That's back to the pantomime we began with!

0:55:22 > 0:55:26All right, quickly round the table, start on the right.

0:55:26 > 0:55:27I think it's unlikely.

0:55:27 > 0:55:33I think there's no appetite for it, but I think the way things are going

0:55:33 > 0:55:36for Theresa May, it's sort of...60/40, I'd put it at.

0:55:36 > 0:55:38OK, we have to be quick, because we're running out...

0:55:38 > 0:55:42All I've learnt in my short time in politics is six months from now,

0:55:42 > 0:55:45- it will be completely different to what's happening now.- Bernard?- No.

0:55:45 > 0:55:47Thank you. Owen?

0:55:47 > 0:55:49Tories are adept at hanging onto power,

0:55:49 > 0:55:51they will hang on to the very last minute, I fear.

0:55:51 > 0:55:53What, so you wouldn't try and unseat them at this stage?

0:55:53 > 0:55:56We're definitely going to try and unseat them, but my point is,

0:55:56 > 0:55:58they're very, very good, and very assiduous

0:55:58 > 0:55:59when it comes to holding on.

0:55:59 > 0:56:01You were going to have it for Christmas!

0:56:01 > 0:56:03- Well, I'd like to say it, Bernard, but...- Kate?

0:56:03 > 0:56:05No, but I do think that Mrs May

0:56:05 > 0:56:08may end up handing post-Brexit Britain to Jeremy Corbyn.

0:56:08 > 0:56:09And...

0:56:09 > 0:56:11CHEERING AND APPLAUSE

0:56:11 > 0:56:12Round of applause!

0:56:12 > 0:56:14I wasn't advocating for that - I just think that might happen.

0:56:14 > 0:56:16They like that!

0:56:16 > 0:56:19- Joshua...- I wasn't advocating for it, but it might happen.

0:56:19 > 0:56:22- ..your last shout, what do you think?- Well...

0:56:22 > 0:56:24I think she's finding it difficult now to govern

0:56:24 > 0:56:26without a parliamentary majority - she did always warn us

0:56:26 > 0:56:29about a coalition of chaos, she just never said it would be with her!

0:56:29 > 0:56:30LAUGHTER

0:56:30 > 0:56:32APPLAUSE

0:56:32 > 0:56:33OK.

0:56:35 > 0:56:38Right, well, our hour is up, thank you very much.

0:56:38 > 0:56:39Next Thursday, now,

0:56:39 > 0:56:43questions are going to come from Barnsley in Yorkshire.

0:56:43 > 0:56:47We've got on the panel, I think the former Education Secretary,

0:56:47 > 0:56:50Nicky Morgan, who's now a key Remainer on the backbenches.

0:56:50 > 0:56:54You sit apart on the backbench of the Tory party,

0:56:54 > 0:56:56you saying one thing, and she saying another.

0:56:56 > 0:56:58- I get on very well with Nicky. - I'm sure you do,

0:56:58 > 0:57:01but you disagree absolutely about almost every aspect of Brexit.

0:57:01 > 0:57:04- Not every aspect - one or two things.- One or two important things.

0:57:04 > 0:57:06Anyway, Labour's Shadow Business Secretary

0:57:06 > 0:57:08is going to be with us, too, Rebecca Long-Bailey,

0:57:08 > 0:57:13and Professor Robert Winston, the scientist and broadcaster.

0:57:13 > 0:57:17That is next Thursday, then there's a gap for Christmas,

0:57:17 > 0:57:20then we'll be in Islington in London on January 11.

0:57:20 > 0:57:23Now, if you can come to either of those programmes,

0:57:23 > 0:57:26you'd be obviously extremely welcome to engage with our panel.

0:57:26 > 0:57:28The number to call:

0:57:31 > 0:57:33Or you can apply to the website - the address is on there,

0:57:33 > 0:57:34and follow the instructions.

0:57:34 > 0:57:37If you're listening to this, as many people do, in the bath,

0:57:37 > 0:57:40on Radio 5Live, you know

0:57:40 > 0:57:42Question Time Extra Time follows us,

0:57:42 > 0:57:45with more discussion of all points we've been making,

0:57:45 > 0:57:50but my thanks to our panel here, and to all of you who came to Swansea.

0:57:50 > 0:57:53Until Thursday next, from Question Time, good night.

0:57:53 > 0:57:55APPLAUSE